body_noquotes
"This fails to mention 2 things:
First many do not bother with worker registration, especially in construction, catering and seasonal labour so the truth is as usual ""nobody really knows"".
Original projections were 9-12 thousand per year, so presumably there had been no planning whatsoever for the other hundreds of thousands. These people require housing, transport, schools, benefits (they qualify for income support etc.). Was this costed when we were told how wonderful this all was?
So it's hardly surprising the government are uncomfortable on this subject as they clearly failed with even the most basic of their duties in this area. That need not imply any judgment of the situation, only that government have been, well, utterly crap in managing this."
It would also be interesting to see how the Eastern European immigration data for the UK compares with other Western European countries like France, Germany and the Netherlands.
'these people' do not qualify for income support, A8 and A2 cannot claim out of work benefits unless they've been in registered work for a year. Sorry to piss on your bonfire.
"Yeah, but how many people (de)register when they leave the country? I am British but live in Germany. Yet the UK government is not aware of this as I haven't informed them.
So it cuts both ways."
"It's a shame Mr Brown didn't take the time to explain to Ms Duffy that ""all those Eastern Europeans"" probably have a legitimate right to be in this country because they hold an EU passport, just as Ms Duffy or anyone else who is a UK passport holder has the right to move freely and work in the EU. Rarely is the distinction made between asylum seekers, immigrants and illegal immigrants.
Personally, I have no time for people who easily take a swipe at hard working low-paid legal migrants who often take jobs that unemployed UK citizens sometimes find unpalatable. The political parties and the media should not sensationalise what happened yesterday and seek to analyse why someone feels they should make a comment which, let's face it, should be left in the 20th century."
"It's a shame Mr Brown didn't take the time to explain to Ms Duffy that ""all those Eastern Europeans"" probably have a legitimate right to be in this country because they hold an EU passport, just as Ms Duffy or anyone else who is a UK passport holder has the right to move freely and work in the EU. Rarely is the distinction made between asylum seekers, immigrants and illegal immigrants.
Personally, I have no time for people who easily take a swipe at hard working low-paid legal migrants who often take jobs that unemployed UK citizens sometimes find unpalatable. The political parties and the media should not sensationalise what happened yesterday and seek to analyse why someone feels they should make a comment which, let's face it, should be left in the 20th century."
"The UK can live, surely, with 1 worker in 50 having come from eastern Europe?
Mon Sumo - not yet allowed in France and Germany."
"so what you are saying is that I'm right then reebee?
Actually, you are not quite right. Any EU citizen who has paid into national insurance for around two years qualifies for the EXACTLY the same benefits as a British worker. This includes tax credits, housing benefit etc. I'm sorry but this is utterly indisputable.
Now that's quite right, but is this factored in when we are told of the benefits of mass imported low wage labour?
It seems like a lose-lose to me. On one hand we pay our people to be out of work and on the other we subsidise poor pay through the tax and benefits system. A British worker does not break even in tax contributions until about £24k or so.
Does this not apply to migrants under the same conditions?"
"I would like to get a table showing the numbers of UK born people living in other countries in the EU. For example, I've heard estimates of between 1-2 million British people in Spain - there must be similar numbers in Portugal and France.
Again, it's difficult to get correct numbers because there are so many people working without permits in bars or as TEFL teachers."
"I would suggest given the number of Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish number plates on the cars driving UK streets that many have just arrived?
Perhaps just visiting, you say?
More likely, since our minimum wage is so high in spending power terms, (PPP figures from Low Pay commission) http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/lowpay2010/appendices3.shtml
they are seasonal workers who will drive across Europe again when the season is done.
I notice the NMW in France is (since devaluation of the pound) higher now than ours, so may be they will be grape picking in Bordeaux come July. Or perhaps I will be. Don't be thinking it's 35 hours max. working week in France. Who is checking the farms and the labourers with several jobs.
It is called freedom to work in Europe. Like it or not, I suspect it's here to stay."
Please can somene also define the difference between an 'expat' and a 'migrant'? Are British people 'expats' living in Spain or are they 'migrants'? What do Spanish people call them?
"dattoria and reebee are spot on- from the Polish perspective at least the issue is that of pendulum migration: you travel back and forth from the home (Poland) country to the host (the UK), earning money when there is work there and returning home when there isn't. Most Poles have little or no desire to stay in the UK. Far from being a drain on the economy they have arguably boosted it and Mrs Duffy should rather be concerned about the scenario of if the thousands of Polish doctors, plumbers, electricians and nurses really did bugger off back to where they came from - her retirement would be considerably harder and more expensive.
By the way, here is a little something to confirm dattoria's hunch - the 11% inactive are probably no longer in the country and, as a result, aren't draining the UK's resources too much...or at least only as much as the Canucks...perhaps we should get rid of the Canadians too? and that useless bunch of scroungers in 10th place...
Rank Country of birth Employed Unemployed Inactive
1 Australia 88% 3% 8%
2 France 86% 3% 12%
3= Canada 85% 2% 13%
3= Poland 85% 4% 11%
10 UK 78% 4% 18%
source:IPPR report, 2007 http://www.ippr.org.uk/publicationsandreports/publication.asp?id=563"
"Why in hells name we have to issue all these Worker Permits for Eastern Europeans with 2.5 Million unemployed, Goodness only knows.
Dont tell me about 'Cheap Labour' These are government stats and these folks will get the Minimum Wage.
Its Maastricht again! Someone ask Cameron what he is going to do about it! It was the Tories that took us into Europe and signed up to Maastricht in 1992!
Boris also wants Cameron to give amnesty to 250,000 illegals living in London to 'get them in the system'. That will add to public sector borrowing when they claim dole and housing as part of the European Human Rights!"
"Haardvark
'First many do not bother with worker registration, especially in construction, catering and seasonal labour so the truth is as usual ""nobody really knows"".'
Well if the figures aren't to be trusted (how convenient) then how about anecdotal evidence? A friend of mine runs a small letting agency in Leeds, a couple of years ago Polish plumbers and labourers were ten a penny in our area, last year harder to find and now like hen's teeth. With the collapse of the property market and big construction contracts there simply wasn't the work so they buggered off back home.
Did you moan about the thousands of brits who went to work abroad in the construction industries during the eighties when Tebbit told them to 'get on their bike' after the Tories destroyed their livelehoods in Britain?"
"Migration flows to the money.
Here in central europe we have hundreds of thousands of workers from Ukraine, Russia, etc.
They work for low wages in occupations vacated by those of our own who headed west.
Before you get so hung up on all this, you should consider the possibility that with manufacturing, banking, etc heading to the Far East - you lot may have to get on your bikes soon..."
"There are about 280k British people in Spain, mostly retired. The difference is they can never qualify for benefits (if you are retired you cannot contribute to the social fund through wages) and don't compete for work. They don't have access to any equivalent of the NHS (they must pay health insurance).
Most live on private UK pensions and released housing equity. In fact this is why some have left because the value of Sterling has dropped 30% to the Euro. All in all, this is a massive earner for Spain, although some complain about inflated house prices."
OK, let's trust the official figures 9-12k PA vs 703k. The point still stands; the government did not plan for this.
"Surrey dude
well i personaly have no time for some one who has there head in the sand and doesnt know/care what is going on.
For Brown to say there are a million here ( made up round fig ) and a million brits are abroad is a total whitewash of the facts to patronise one of his own people.
Name me another country where immigration has had such an effect on localised communities. A million Brits spread throughout EU is different to a million EU in England ( 90 %)
explain to me, If we are all equal why a E.E can come here and claim our family benefits and then send there family home and still claim all the benefits and the real kicker is when they leave they are allowed to keep all the benefits ?
check it out, its a fact.
there are now more babies being born to Poles and Portugese than to Brits the pressure on the social services is extreme.
drinking driving is now basically anti social, not for eastern europeans its not.
try Boston lincs, it has a massive population of eastern europeans 60 odd different languages spoken in a town of 200,000 ish
try the local hospital where if you are local you have to wait at the back of the que whilst others get seen first cos they want to get rid of the interpretors at 80-100 pound an hour.
ive lived in europe and there isnt any where else affected as much by immigration as the UK, and your subtle hard working low paid innocent migrant worker is frankly bollocks, speak to the Police forces, social services, caravan site owners ect, you might get a different picture, not twisted news articles that paint a pretty picture."
True, the government didn't plan for this, and it's another reason for slapping Labour round a bit at the election. But I don't see that the numbers are actually a problem for Britain and I'm certainly not going to vote for anyone proposing punitive action to deprive us of people who make - in my eyes - a generally positive contribution to our economcy and society.
Anything that means I can now get Zywiec polish beer in this country cheaply is a good thing by me.
There's quite a big difference between wealthy Brits moving abroad to retire / educated Brits moving abroad to fill specialist jobs and predominantly unskilled migrant workers coming here to provide cheap labour for Labour backers. To pretend otherwise is simply misleading. Sadly the Tories are peddling the idea that you can somehow equate the two as well.
"I'm still looking for the facts
That is: how much immigrants are costing the NHS
how much it is costing us in benefits and pensions
how many school places and at what cost
how much housing is taken up by immigrants
how much crime is due to immigrants
how many illegal immigrants there are
why so many are trying to get out of France and into Britain"
Whatever the figures, immigration bings the whingers out of the woodwork - work-shy at that.
"haardvark

And this is a bad thing, how? Surely if someone pays NI, they are then allowed to ""reap the benefits"" for having contributed to the system? Or are you advocating that a Polish immigrant who has been working in the UK for two years plus, contributed to NI, paid taxes, set up home and built up a life doesn't deserve the benefits of the system should he or she lose their jobs or be unable to work for some reason? Seriously? What would you do - send them back to Poland once they've stopped being useful?"
"Could someone please tell me if the figures for Eastern European migrants include dependents or are they just those available for work.
I have heard of many stories of Romanian 'gypsies' flooding certain towns in England (eg Peterborough) causing no end of social disruption. Are these stories true? If so , what the hell is going on. It is not right for 'liberal' thinking people to castigate people who have to live close to some of the less welcome immigrants.
I have a belief close to the Green Party in that this country can only support 30m people and that constant , unsustainable, economic growth is not the way forward. It is my view that economic migration, welcoming cheap labour, is not helpful to social cohesion and integration."
"No. That wasn't the point. The point is people who earn low wages do not make a net contribution to the economy, especially when social support is taken into consideration (and you could argue money sent home is lost to the economy too). Therefore it does not make sense to import more low wage workers, when you already have people to take these roles. those other people do not suddenly disappear either, therefore it's a double whammy and effectively a taxpayer subsidy to low-wage to business.
Immigration only works if it releases labour to be more productive. I see no evidence of this happening. In fact it cannot happen during a recession. The evidence points in the other direction in fact as GDP/capita has fallen since 2005, whereas it's increased in most of the EU.
There are many ways you can grow an economy. Germany post war invested in machinery and education and they are the world's second largest exporter. We opted for immigration and we are not. This is hardly surprising as growth by immigration is pure 3rd world economics, the reason why a farmer wants as many strong sons in many places in the world whereas the developed world mechanized.
We've been here and done this before remember. The mills of Lancashire were fed by workers from Pakistan in the 1960s to keep Labour costs low. The mills went anyway and the net result is two unemployed communities instead of one.
I just want us to learn from our post-war mistakes and use the resources we already have effectively. The resumption of mass migration only happened in the last few years, is anyone seriously arguing those jobs didn't get done without it? That would require a massive failure of memory."
I'm sorry but immigration is out of control in the UK. I'm all in favour of controlled and planned immigration but what we have had in the last decade or so has been neither controlled nor planned. There are huge numbers of jobless and poor immigrants in the UK at the moment and it's unhealthy.
"_AT_Haardvark
Then surely the question you need to be asking is why generic EU folk are getting the jobs rather than British people, I didn't realise we were deliberately 'importing' anyone."
"People really need to distinguish between EU and NON EU immigration!!!!!!!!
EU - you can't do anything about it; it is the Tories fault as they signed the treaty! However it means we can travel around the continent without being interrogated like NON EU citiizens
NON EU - Labour is very, very tough on these people! Overly harsh in my opinion to make up the fact that they cant do anything about people from the EU"
"How many of the people leaving the UK are retirees who are not seeking work in other countries?
How many entering the UK are not looking for work? Not many I would think."
"Whilst I could not care less who comes here as long as they work/contribute to society these figures are clearly wrong. Most of the Poles I know work cash in hand and are invisible on the radar for instance so it is safe to say you can add a few hundred thousand to that figure.
If ID cards were compulsory for ALL we would know exactly what was going on, perhaps to a better degree than now and could properley plan Health, Education etc provisions better. Whilst I am sure some are happy for anyone to come here, live in the shadows and be exploited I would rather more control, better for everyone."
"The way migrant labour is used to insult British people in the bottom quintile is as vile as any xenophobia faced by Eastern Europeans. Not only that, these insults - ""they're lazy, they think they're too good for crap jobs, etc"" - betray a lack of understanding.
The migration balance proves that Eastern Europeans, overwhelmingly, are not settling in this country.
This fact is used by many to indicate that the debate is overblown: ""hey, they're all leaving, what's your problem?""
But the migration balance is at the very heart of the problem.
Eastern Europeans come to the UK to work for set periods of time. As soon as their pockets are full, they saying goodbye to the poor living and working conditions they've endured in the UK and start afresh in their home country.
They never intended to live 12 to a house in Slough for the rest of their lives. They came to work hard in poor conditions for as long as they could stand it, and then go home with their reward.
But here's the key factor:
The wages they earned in the UK will stretch a long way in Poland or Lithuania and will enable them a lifestyle they would not have had access to in the UK.
In effect, they've been working for greater rewards than their low-paid, low-skilled British co-workers.
Unlike their British co-workers, they have a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
And we're wondering why they seem so industrious and uncomplaining by comparison?
It's because they have greater incentives to be industrious and uncomplaining.
The influx of labour from Eastern Europe has had the greatest benefit for the well off - for business, for middle-class people looking for cheap tradesmen, etc.
When the lower orders point out that the situation doesn't have any benefits for them, those who do benefit cry ""Bigots! Lazy! Ignorant!""
It's an attitude that crosses political lines. Norman Tebbit will defend Eastern European workers in the Telegraph as much as a Guardian editorial.
But it seems there's nobody to defend British people on the bottom of the pile."
"haardvark:

The figure of UK nationals officially resident in Spain for 2009 was 374,600 an increase of 227 per cent over the 2001 figure of 107,000 - nowhere near the 1 - 2 million quoted elsewhere but, nonetheless, a figure that is increasing year-on-year. And, I suspect, that the real figure is at least two or three times as high, owing to the huge number that don't apply for a residents permit, especially those who stay for, say, six months of every year.
As is the law, Brits have exactly the same rights to benefits as Spanish citizens - my kids get the subsidy for school books and have, in the past, received free school meals - just like their Spanish classmates.
I can assure you that we are entitled to free treatment under the excellent Spanish national health service and that I personally cost it quite a lot of money.
If you don't work, you don't pay national insurance and you aren't entitled to a state pension based on your contributions (there is a non-contributory one, if you can be bothered to go hunting for it) but if, as claimed, the majority of British are retired, then they will have a full pension based on their contributions in the United Kingdom and - importantly for a pensioner - free access to the health service.
Of course, if you want to use the health service or to take advantage of any other benefits on offer (and they are different to the benefits in the UK) you do have to be able to speak, read and write the Spanish language and, very importantly, fill out your annual tax return (the declaración). And the vast, vast majority of British ex-pats in Spain simply can't be bothered. They live in British communities where they don't need to learn another language and are ritually and routinely ripped-off for their laziness."
"'aeddan' at 4.17 is the AUTHOR of the IPPR report he quotes, none other than Danny Ishkandaria.
The IPPR is a shill for New Labour. A year or so back it reported that all of the EE nationals had gone home!
Today, following Brown having expressed his true opinion on immigration and its opponents, it reported that perhaps the PC left have been too harsh in calling anyone who disagreed with NuLabor's open doors immigration policy 'racist' or 'bigot'"
"Nice try, PigFace2 - I am with you wholeheartedly, but I've long since given up trying to argue that one. I am a Brit who has been living outside the UK but in the EU for the last 20 years. In that time, not one person - not one, anywhere in the EU - has ever so much as looked at me as anything particularly unusual. I'm not retired, nor anywhere near it. I have, to use the language of Little England, in my most recent country of residence ""stolen a job"" from a Czech person. And no-one has ever even questioned it.
Let's just face it: the Brits are an island race, and the biggest island problem they have is the one in their heads. There was never a good idea had anywhere south of Dover and anyone over the sea is a foreigner, a potential job-thief, benefit-scrounger, health-tourist, and certainly no good for anything.
Once you have accepted that, you'll find it a lot easier reading some of the comments in this kind of thread.
God, it's depressing, isn't it?"
Some more facts; since eastern Europeans were allowed to live and work in the UK, the amount of women sex-trafficked into the UK has doubled, and amount of children sex-traffiked into the UK has tripled (Office of National Statistics figures)
"Haardvark-No A8 nationals or their families are entitled to social housing or benefits unless they are working and are registered on the Worker Registration Scheme. Once they have completed 12 months of registered work, they are not entitled unless they are working, unless they stop work because of illness or become ?involuntarily unemployed?. This requirement lapses after 5 years of working
You don?t have to register if you are registered with HMRC as self-employed but you will not get any benefits or be entitled to social housing if you stop work.
If you are not registered either as an employee or self-employed you and your family are not entitled to benefits or social housing.
The rules are even more restrictive for A2 nationals. (Romania and Bulgaria)
So in other words Eastern European migrants only have a right to social housing and benefits if they are working/have worked and are paying/have paid tax and NI. This is not a requirement for UK nationals. I would be interested to see the reaction if it were."
"Haardvark-No A8 nationals or their families are entitled to social housing or benefits unless they are working and are registered on the Worker Registration Scheme. Once they have completed 12 months of registered work, they are not entitled unless they are working, unless they stop work because of illness or become ?involuntarily unemployed?. This requirement lapses after 5 years of working
You don?t have to register if you are registered with HMRC as self-employed but you will not get any benefits or be entitled to social housing if you stop work.
If you are not registered either as an employee or self-employed you and your family are not entitled to benefits or social housing.
The rules are even more restrictive for A2 nationals. (Romania and Bulgaria)
So in other words Eastern European migrants only have a right to social housing and benefits if they are working/have worked and are paying/have paid tax and NI. This is not a requirement for UK nationals. I would be interested to see the reaction if it were."
"_AT_OFPrague

That would be those bastards from Folkestone and all points west then ;o)
I've been an immigrant in my host country (in SE Asia) for over five years, and while no-one's complained about me stealing a local job, people do complain about migrants from countries in the region. What really pisses me off, though, are the british ex-pats whinging on about how the 'immigrants' are killing Britain when they themselves haven't lived there since the nineties, being 'immigrants' themselves.
Grrrrr!!!"
"This debate could go on forever...
I'm pleased the Guardian has chosen to publish bare facts, even if these stats can't give you the full picture.
I'm also pleased there are people on here outlining the benefits of immigration, Brits being able to live/travel wherever they like in the EU, and highlighting the need to distinguish between the different types of immigration.
Hammy966 - I grew up in Boston, Lincs, and listening to the locals bang on about 'foreigners' all day long made me really angry, and now I visit Lincolnshire as rarely as I can. However, over the years I've come to realise that the people there (and elsewhere) do have a genuine reason to raise the immigration issue - the local population has been massively transformed in a very short space of time.
I live in London now where I think it's easy to see all the benefits of immigration, however I can understand the anger of some people in certain parts of the country, where the benefits can be less tangible (although I believe still as real) and the negatives more so."
"_AT_atlantisguy

Compulsory? You mean like the way it is compulsory to declare earnings or to not enter the country illegally? If someone breaks one law why wouldn't they break another, why wouldn't they just not have an ID card and why wouldn't rogue employers turn a blind eye to this?
Unless you want Police randomly stopping us in the street asking us for our ID then ID cards are pointless. This is why many of us are so against them. Because they are pointless unless they work in this way we have to assume that this is how will eventually be used, regardless of current denials."
"OFPrague,
Nicely put!
I'm a Brit who found work in another EU country after my work area
(IT) caught a distinct cold after 2000. I could curse over the South Africans
who ""flooded"" the IT world in the UK in my speciality - particularly as they were welcomed in the UK, but Brits, like my daughter, were not allowed work permits in SA.
But I don't, because the EU gave me an opportunity to work outside the UK.
Due to the EU, many Brits have found work in the EU abroad, and a brilliant thing this is too - to our mutual enrichment.
Good luck to the young Poles etc. who have been happy to drive buses and pick vegetables in East Anglia and act as flight attendants on Ryanair etc.
These little Englander, xenophobic anti-East European workers in the UK types should visit Poland - they might understand a bit better why Polish young people are happy to graft in the UK - at least for a while.
And it has been greatly to the advantage of the UK - which did not pay for the education of these workers.
On the other hand things are improving rapidly in Poland - and many will return to their homeland.
The UK has always benefitted from immigrants - nothing has changed.
An Island race always needs new blood and new ideas."
The basis of this is really our desire for cheap goods & our unwillingness to to take on the appaling pay & conditions that are necessary to provide them. No one asks why we dont have clothing factories in this country to make the clothes we buy, because ultimately we know we dont want to be the ones making them. The majority of jobs unskilled EU labourers take on are ones no one British will take, but ones the employers wont pay more for because it will price them out of a massively uneven market.
"I've lived in France for the last 20 years having left UK in 1989. My eldest son was born in UK and my 4 other children were born in France. Would my 4 younger kids be regarded as ""froggies"" should they return to ""Blighty""?
It's a fact that there is a ""black economy"" with people working undeclared and shows a further problem in what is a complex immigration situation. This problem is evident in France too! The major difference is that Brits emmigrating, in the main, do so to retire, whereas those coming into UK are coming to work.
Any future government needs to re-think and fix the immigration question in a sensible, firm and fair way."
"Chriswr:-
""Unless you want Police randomly stopping us in the street asking us for our ID then ID cards are pointless.""
Not so. The police in Germany (according to a constitution agreed by the allied powers, incuding the UK) are not allowed to stop people at random and ask for their ID cards - but Germans must have an Ausweis (ID card) by law - and also be registered as living at a particular address.
On the other hand 99% of Germans would wish to retain the current cradle to grave, every 10 year renewable photo ID card system (the first one is free at 18).
An efficient and effective ID and residence registration system helps to prevent illegal immigration and people stealing your identity - amongst numerous other benefits (negligible false ID fraud for one).
That's why Germany has few illegal immigrants despite pretty open borders.
The pople who moan over illegal immigration also moan over ID cards - fully illogical"
"When my mom came to this benign, tolerant, fair-minded country she was told she needn't bother applying for quite a lot of jobs, and that herself, blacks and dogs weren't wanted as tenants of vacant flats. She did what Poles and Eastern Europeans by the thousand are doing now: worked hard, paid her taxes, obeyed the law, got on with her life.
It seems bitterly ironic to me that a lady named Duffy has said intolerant things about Eastern Europenas: Duffy is an Irish name, and my dear old mom was Irish.
It is very sad that politicians are running scared of saying boo to working-class Labour supporters when they say intolerant things. I think Brown was right to call her a bigot, and she ought to cast her mind back to the No Irish Need Apply and No Blacks No Dogs No Irish days, which aren't too far off in the past."
Immigration is not a technical problem. This is a mental problem and English problem. Many of Poles came to the UK as a normal European country, but now they found this economy in the state similar to Polish financial system in seventies, ruled by communists. They also can find terrible level of education and plenty of people have been living on benefits for years. Additionally they can now see that even politicians from the ?left? are afraid to explain what xenophobia is. In few years they can come back to Poland as they soon can feel that UK is not a part of Europe. In such circumstances the strongest discourse has Griffin... but he should think twice before he gives any money to immigrants to make them back to their countries of origin. He must spare some money for future generations to rebuild London after his fall...
"dattoria says :-
"" I am British but live in Germany. Yet the UK government is not aware of this as I haven't informed them. ""
You are being a bit naive here.
Your passport was not ""swiped"" or read by a machine when leaving/entering Germany(Schengen) or the UK?
The airline or ferry company was not obliged to relay its data to the powers that be?
Within the EU there is a lot of data sharing going on for anti-terrorism and other reasons.
There is a ""logging in"" and ""logging out"" system in the UK, but it is not fully operational - depends on your travel mode.
If you live (legally) permanently in Germany then the German gov. will know all about you - angemeldet and so on - and for many purposes will share this info. with the UK Gov. when requested."
"_AT_Xanderharris
Great post. Very perceptive."
"One of the myths regarding immigration/emigration is that UK emigrants are largely retirees.
May be so as regards France and Spain.
Not so in Germany. Full of well educated Brits who find it far more congenial than the UK.
Instead of worrying about the economically useful east Europeans who once
came to the UK in great numbers, it might be a better idea to focus on this continuing brain drain.
Winding down manufacturing industry in the UK gave many Brits no alternative than to find work in high-tech Germany.
Few wish to return to the UK amongst those I know in this category.
A shame - maybe a return to high-tech engineering would not be such a bad idea."
"haardvark:

...and they also invited a lot of 'guest workers' to immigrate and help rebuild their economy, many of whom stayed and raised families with German nationality, just like in the UK."
"In our population of 61m, it's the 201,000 (3.3%) who came this year who make everything wrong.
Brown did indeed call a spade a spade."
"What no one seems to notice is that Eastern European immigration is about to end. How do I know this? Demographics.
Most of the Eastern European immigrants were young, between ages 20-25. Approximately 19 years ago, the birth rate in Eastern Europe began to plummet.
You can go to a 1991 New York Times article to see how much it was dropping (the birth rate continued to fall after the article was written).
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/31/world/birth-rates-plummeting-in-some-ex-communist-regions-of-eastern-europe.html?scp=1&sq=%22eastern%20europe%22%20birth%20rate%201990%201991&st=cse
Ironically, the immigration will stop just as the UK baby boomers start to retire. In addition, Easter Europeans of the A8 will be allowed unfettered access to Germany and Austria next year, and many will prefer to emigrate to a neighboring country rather than to the UK. All the while, as Eastern European economies improve relative to the UK, the incentive to emigrate will diminish."
"As everyone has to have a National Insurance Number to work in the UK and the government issue the numbers and record the payment of contributions, they should know exactly how many people are working in the UK from which foreign country.
It would be interesting to learn exactly how many people born within the UK are resident in each foreign country.
It is ironic that the west's attacks on Eastern Europe for not allowing people to freely leave has been replaced by a pathetic whingeing now that they are free to do so.
What hypocrites we are!"
By the way... there is soon the anniversary of Polish Constitution of May 3, 1791. It was created by the rich nation established not only by Poles and Lithuanians but also by the immigrants: German, Jewish, Dutch and British immigrants that in their countries (if they had them) could only dream about parliamentarianism, religious tolerance and public opinion. Look when immigration to Poland stopped... the end of consumption and foreign governments... Think about poor proud Britain today.
"NYC945:

..and then the Romanians and Bulgarians gain freedom of movement around 2014, and this whole row will kick off yet again..."
Forget about the Poles, what about all those blasted Saxons taking jobs away from hardworking Angles?! And do not get me started on the Normans with their Norman number tags and weird saucey foods!
"These figures are totally worthless, the govenment by its own admission has No Idea who is in this country.
Youre not going to save 'Bigot' Brown with this nonsense!"
"Guzzidave - you are quite right about the Spanish rules and that many of the retirees don't bother to learn the language. Consequently the minute they need any medical treatment they book a cheap flight home and get treatment in the UK. As a result many people living outside the UK (especially the elderly) still need to be factored into the infrastructure requirements as well as UK residents so this 'equal numbers in and out' doesn't wash.
My favourite moment when living in Spain waiting for a friend to arrive at the airport was listen to a British guy in his 70's who complained that 'England has gone to the dogs blah blah...'. In an attempt to change the conversation, I asked if he was waiting for a relative to arrive. He was waiting for his wife as she had been 'home' (ie the UK) for her final appointment with her consultant after a hip replacement operation earlier in the year. I asked if she hadn't considered having it in Spain. 'Oh no, the doctors speak Spainish here you know'. I laughed for a week."
"""Please can somene also define the difference between an 'expat' and a 'migrant'? Are British people 'expats' living in Spain or are they 'migrants'? What do Spanish people call them?""
I'd rather not quote what the Spaniards call them. These 'expats', in general, can't speak Spanish, don't pay local income taxes, don't assimilate and generally live in their ghettos. There are an estimated 1.2 million UK born people living in Spain. Spain is an EU country and so they have every right to live there, just as other EU citizens have the right to live in the UK.
It just amazes me when I hear all this talk of 'immigrants' to the UK, whereas when UK born people migrate to somewhere else, they're referred to politely as 'expats'."
"Isn't this escaping the point?
Eastern Europeans come here because there are jobs to be had and they are generally well regarded.
That's why employers prefer them, not because they're cheap but because they turn up on time, they turn up and do an honest day's work.
The reason became clear to me some ten years ago when I taught a class of european refugees. Having fled a war zone, been plonked in a strange country where many did not speak the language, if anyone hd a right to climb up the walls they did. Yet their behaviour was exemplary. And they worked harder than their native counterparts.
Not just from eastern Europe but from very other part.
It was the way they were brought up. Whilst ours are very poorly brought up and given every excuse for under-achieving.
The lib/left have ruined generations with their new child-raising methods, giving them rights they have not earned and bringing them up on the basis that they have a right to a job and they don't have to work hard.
Unless we stop this Supernanny type molly-coddling and return to methods that work, or are allowed to by removing restrictive laws, generations will continue to find they cannot compete with people abroad.
There will even come a time when Britons will no longer be able to work abroad, as Brown boasted recently. Nobody will want them."
"_AT_Chriswr
Obviously the ID on its own is not the SOLE tool that can be used. I really don't know why people are scared of them, given they willing to spill their life on social networking sites, store loyalty card etc etc etc. As per usual Brits are scared of change."
"""There will even come a time when Britons will no longer be able to work abroad, as Brown boasted recently. Nobody will want them.""
Of course not. Nobody will want them because they won't be able to speak the local language."
"Optimist99 and OfPrague, good to see there's some sanity out there after yesterday's media circus! Gillian Duffy's comments said a lot more about the petty, narrow-minded, spiteful DailyMaily attitudes of a fair swathe of the British population than Gordon Brown.
Hammy 966, you say that you can't compare immigrants from the new EU countries and Spain, but why is it okay for Brits to move to Spain in large numbers, live in their little British enclaves, refuse to integrate, speak the language or make any attempt to contribute to Spanish life and culture? Why is okay for Brits living in Spain to do nothing for their adopted country but Poles, Czechs, Lithuanian, etc to get abuse from the gutter press every day just because they want to earn a living (unlike many Brits, who sit on their lardy backsides all day). Why are Brits living in Spain 'expats' but workers from the former Eastern Bloc just 'immigrants', with all the negative connotations this word is acquiring? Why is it okay for Brits in Spain to demand water for golf courses from local politicians (not exactly a priority in one of Europe's driest countries) and whinge about 'illegals' on the comments page of the Daily Fail while the same expats kick up a fuss because their ILLEGAL homes are knocked down by the authorities? Why is there one rule for ignorant, judgmental, sanctimonious, xenophobic and arrogant Brits, and another for young people with drive, ambition, initiative and education, from the former Eastern Bloc?"
"Hammy. There are other countries in the EU that have far more immigrants than we do, and there are other countries which have to support more immigration despite being far poorer - Italy for example, has very poor areas with low employment etc. but is inundated with people coming in from Africa.
sshield - noone will want them because they'll all have nowt but a Citizenship GCSE and an NVQ in Basic Waste Management.
Vino - hear, hear.
I think the fact that today's Sun had to accompany the ""bigotgate"" coverage with a definition of ""bigot"" is telling.
QBalloo - please don't play the ""we're all immigrants"" card. It never wins against these people. Plus the Saxons were mercenaries hired by the Romans until the Romans ran out of bling and hoes to pay them with - they had no right to be here at the time, and to use them to back up the ""it's a melting pot"" argument is like slapping a Chinese person on the back and trying to strike up conversation about how rudding charming those Mongol hordes were."
"Curious to follow the question of the payoff of belonging to the EU and belonging to other exchange agreements.
How many Brits are working abroad in each of these other countries?
How many people listed in these numbers were born abroad of British parents working abroad?
Is it possible to know the qualification of Brit working abroad? Is there a general flow of everyone moving ""up"" to an economy where we earn more for our relative qualifications?
Our our markets simply broadening for some groups? Are there ""shortage"" elsewhere in the world for skilled workers put out of work here? Do we have numbers for any of these or are we dependent on guess-work?"
"Dfic1999
You and the other complainers can't see the forest for the trees.
True, Romanians and Bulgarians may move to anywhere in the EU in 2014. However, young Romanians and Bulgarians have already emigrated en masse to southern Europe, and Romania (birth rate 1.40) and Bulgaria (birth rate 1.32)are shrinking faster than almost any other country on the planet.
One of the reasons why so many Poles came in 2004 was because of a mini baby boom in the early 1980s (many of whom are now having kids, another short-lived phenomenon that people are whining about).
This whole controversy will completely disappear in a year or two, again, just as the UK baby boomers are retiring.
source: UN Population Division at http://esa.un.org/unpp/index.asp"
NYC945 - you might be right re. birth rates..but it's not going stop people complaining about the next bunch of migrants just as they've done about the Poles (and the Asians, and the West Indians, and the Irish and the Jews...) in the past. It's a stuck record.
"_AT_Guizzdave
>>Of course, if you want to use the health service or to take advantage of any other benefits on offer (and they are different to the benefits in the UK) you do have to be able to speak, read and write the Spanish language and, very importantly, fill out your annual tax return (the declaración). And the vast, vast majority of British ex-pats in Spain simply can't be bothered. They live in British communities where they don't need to learn another language and are ritually and routinely ripped-off for their laziness.<<
On so its like not British NHS document I had the other day whereby at the end it states translation of this document is availible in a spanish, french, turkish, polish, urdu, hindi, bengali, and chinese mandarin then?
Poland, unlike all other eastern bloc countries, had strong population growth in the early 1980's the days when staunch catholism and ludicrously cheap soviet oil subsides provided everyone with a job for life and apartment but virtually no entertainment or consumer goods...Poland, since 1989, cannot provide sufficient employment for this generation and you are importing that surplus..."
I think you will find Austria and Germany will de-fault on the so called 2011 "opening up" of their labour markets..The Austrian press in strongly against it.
"dfic1999
Don't forget the Romans and the Saxons and the Vikings and the Normans......"
"It really is sickening...
I 've been living, working and PAYING taxes in UK for 3 years now. I'm skilled, educated, hardworking and unlike some of my british workmates don't take sick leave every month.And although I'm very well aware of the fact that there are eastern europeans who abuse the system the majority of us work hard and obey the rules..
I wouldn't even try to convince anyone that we are any good I'm just really fed up with the insults throwing at us at every occasion just because we are white and it doesn't make you racist.. just maybe a bigot but then even prime minister will have to appoligise for telling the truth.."
When the new succession countries joined the EU, Germany, France and Austria did not give them automatic rights to work in their countries. What did the 'economic growth' obsessed BROWN government do, just opened the doors with no restrictions. Of course this would undercut the salaries of the previously unskilled traditional labour supporters, ie the working class. The results of which we are seeing now in this election. Unfortunately, this has now lead to a rise in right wing parties and was totally predictable. What did the Labour government say to to the concerns of the working class? There would be no more than 200,000 immigrants per year from East Europe! Anybody with more than two-brain cells to rub together could see this was not going to be the case. It just demonstrates that a government should be more concerned over it population's 'quality of life' than just plain economic growth.
"It's not immigration that's the real issue. It's the fact that we in this country (along with the States) mollycoddle our kids.
Employers will always need people they can rely on, rather than people brought up to believe the world owes them a cushy living.
Unless we address this problem, Gordon Brown's rather optimistic figures as espouced to the lady he called a bigot, will not last. Nobody will want British workers."
"If they are from Poland, or from other areas within the EU, then why is it such an issue? I was taught that the EU was created to compete with the US. Common passport, free trade, and open borders amongst member states... I would mention common currency, but the UK opted out on that one.
I'm originally from Michigan, and I have lived in Texas, Georgia, and currently reside in Florida. It would be strange for me to move from one state to another, and experience animosity towards me because I was from Michigan. There are cultural differences in the US, but not to the extent that there is in Europe. Maybe England is not ready for a European Union.
What you should be worried about, is the influx of Islamic Idealist that are prevalent in your country. They are the ones that want to change your society, and laws. Not the Eastern Europeans!
-Florida"
"maraq
?Poland, unlike all other eastern bloc countries, had strong population growth in the early 1980's the days when staunch catholism and ludicrously cheap soviet oil subsides provided everyone with a job for life and apartment but virtually no entertainment or consumer goods...Poland, since 1989, cannot provide sufficient employment for this generation and you are importing that surplus...?
I suppose that you are not just an ignorant... In eighties in Poland it was impossible to buy bread without a coupon and cueing for hours during the night. There was NOTHING in the shops and only black market. There was no sophisticated health service without a bribe. There was terrible communist newspeak in the media boycotted by almost whole of the society... But there were also no apartments for people... you could buy an apartment after 20 years of waiting or just go abroad to earn money if you got allowed. There were tanks and military transporters in the streets. There was a curfew. You could be imprisoned or shot if you not respect it. Thank to what Polish people were doing then, thanks to their opposition, YOU are not dead now or at least you do not need to hide from soviet nuclear missiles. I give you a guarantee that Polis did not loved Hitler and Stalin even if some idiots would like to tell such things. Poles did not have a time to enjoy chip Russian oil paying for the soviet presence there in the same time. Are just another British ignorant racist talking about Polish catholicism, anti-Semitism and homophobia.. just impossible that it is an outcome of education in British school; my children attend it as I pay my taxes here. I know the level of education in UK is poor but not so much. I really know many intelligent British people not saying such rubbish..."
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
As you pointed out, plenty of Brit Crims abroad. Drugs in Southern Spain etc. Dealers in Ibizia.
By what right do the border agency steal ID? I know of no regulation that allows them to do this.
Read the article - they keep it so it doesn't get destroyed, as that will ultimately mean they stay.
Just to add to this story, Broadway on Monday released http://www.broadwaylondon.org/CHAIN/NewsletterandReports/main_content/fullreport.pdf" rel="nofollow">their latest figures for rough sleepers in London. Sadly Eastern and Central European people are accounting for a rapidly rising proportion of rough sleepers in the capital.
Can't let the startlingly contrary truth of real statistics get in the way of perception- and perception leads to firm conviction with daily mail and sun readers all day everyday!!
And with politicians of all stripes.
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"I find it a little disturbing that Guardian readers aren't able to reference their direct experiences living in a community with a significant migrant minority.
Anyway, my point was that while the stats may be hyperbolic and the language used by elements of the current government bordering on out-right racism or xenophobia, the reality is that the influx of Eastern European migrants has a significant, direct affect on the lives of many and some consideration should be given to that reality.
Hopefully this post will stick around a little longer..."
"As an occasional British visitor to the UK I have to tell you that it certainly has. This summer I met a vast number of Polish and Romanian workers in the service industry. They were bright, cheerful, smiling and efficient in what they did. What a pleasure.
Of course there were many Brits doing the same ... but a significant number that were obnoxious, mean, unhelpful and even derogatory.
Yep, I hope the influx makes life improve even more."
My "perception" is my rammed train and my ever traffic jammed roads, and my child not able to get into her catchment school.
What some people in this country need to be aware of, is that there are substantial and thriving Ex pat British communities all over the EU. How would we like it if other countries treated our nationals the way we seem intent on treating theirs?
I live in a EU country, my wife is not an EU citizen but is legitimately here. There are so many little concentrations of UK people, but then equally Dutch, Irish, German, Belgian and so on that our hosts are used to it. If the UK pulled out of the EU and hostility from the UK side meant 'repatriation' then suddenly quite a lot of people would be plonked back there. They are not all pensioners as is sometimes alleged and many of us have children with UK passports who will not be on census statistics there. So no precise numbers are possible for projections. Imagine the sudden flood of people without jobs, homes and all else. The few niggles about Bulgarians and Romanians would very quickly pale into insignificance as the UK gets its own back.
"I'm a UK citizen living and working in Germany, and have been here now for more than 6 years. Due to retire within the next few years.
Once I've been here for 8, I can apply for German citizenship which I'll certainly attempt, as I have no wish to return to a Britain ruled by the present coalition - nor by the Labour party in its current Tory-Lite form, either. Return to a country with its NHS being dismantled and sold off as well? No thanks.In any case I'm a home-owner here, too, living in a lovely apartment the like of which I'd never be able to afford in the UK."
Our ex pat communities have money and are a financial benefit to their adoptive nations. Immigration into the the UK is predominantly based upon unskilled Eastern European's who work here and send most of there money home. Apples and oranges I'm afraid.
very interesting, any evidence?
Agreed. Interesting too that they are called 'ex pats'. They are also&nbsp; migrants but they are going the other way.
"When were you last in hospital?
My last visit I had blood taken by a Portugese nurse, was seen by an Asian cardiologist and Polish Radiologist.
London is full of Europeans working in finance and the media, and that doesn't count those in hospitality and catering. I think you need to wake up to the fact that many of these migrants have skills that their British counterparts lack, multilingual for a start."
My point expanded. Thank you. I lived and worked variously in Belgium, Holland and Germany I have many friends still there who have difficulty believing the way this country is going.
The difference is that OUR ex-pat commnunities are either working or retired and are not benefit tourists which is part of the pull on people coming here: relatively easy access to the benefits system and no minimum contributory period...
A friend from Berlin was complaining about his rent, I sent him a copy of an advert for a similar apartment in a similar area of London. No more complaints.
"Do a little research and find out what benefit payments are in other countries before you post. JSA equivalents in Belgium, Holland, Germany and the Irish Republic are all higher than here.
Also DWP's own figures, less than 6% of benefit claimants are EU migrants and they are generally short term."
"That is what is called prejudice. Go to a hospital or a university to take these two sectors as examples and you will see the enormous contributions made by EU and non-EU migrants to the British economy (I am not even talking about a contribution to society, given that most people seemingly only care about money in this country).
One thing that really annoys me is how the Brits abroad are 'ex-pats', whereas the poor souls not born in the UK are 'foreigners' or 'migrants'."
It should also be pointed out that many of the Brits who have emigrated to Spain are retirees and due to their advanced years need regular access to the Spanish health service. So it’s not just migrants coming to the UK that have access to our public services, Brits living abroad do so too.
"did you even read the article or just start typing when you saw the word immigration...
..also I think you will find that most benefits require a minimal NI contribution beven for UK residents and of course non-EU migrants are excluded from calining benefits...but don't let the facts get in the way of your Pavlovic response ...keep ranting ;)"
"Nonsense. If the authorities don't know what's going on, we can fairly conclude it isn't good. Because if an immigrant is contributing to the welfare of society they will have a tax code. If they have a tax code, we know they are here and where they live. This is true regardless of politic and is in no way a fascist outlook (as I have been told before previously), identifying tax payers is a fundamental requisite of any Socialist state!
If tax isn't being paid, we can be sure still services will still be consumed and we can also be sure that immigrants are only likely to then declare themselves when something is needed from the state."
"Nonsense. If the authorities don't know what's going on, we can fairly conclude it isn't good.
No, that's just the implication you've made to fit your agenda.
I feel sorry for you, people from other countries aren't that cynical and self-serving and they aren't out to steal your appointment at the hospital and/or your parking space, you do know that I hope?"
"Absolute bollox. The sixth largest French city is London, over 600,000 French people live there, how do the French know this and we don't?
The second most commonly spoken language in UK is Polish, and we know this. If those figures can be found so can others. The fact remains that the vast majority of migrants actually work. Many only come for the summer - the fruit pickers - and then return home.
The authorities don't know what's going on because we have the worst government interdepartmental IT systems in Europe which suits their purpose as it enables them to misrepresent statistics to suit themselves, not just this lot, but Labour too."
The French don't know. They're guessing too.
"It's no use just swearing at people you disagree with and thinking it strengthens your argument. You don't need to cross reference any other IT systems than the tax database. That contains at the very least an address, an age and a name against an NI number. Clearly there will be a vanishingly small proportion of the indigenous population who register those things past the ages of 16 to 20. So new registrations after the age of 20 are going to give a pretty clear signal as to net tax paying migrants.
You can't have it all ways. You can't say migration is good, but that we have no idea how many are consuming services without contributing taxes to the welfare of the nation. Yet that is what whitehall serving both the present and last government are trying to say. The problem is both the present and last government have admitted their figures could be wrong by an order of magnitude but that being the case, the claims being made about the value of migrants are necessarily undermined. The evidence of the strain on services - which incidentally has not been adequately accounted for in any of the reports on the value of migration - is clear for all to see."
Ok, without swearing. The simple answer is that your idea wont work because NI details and Tax details do not include nationality, unless you are registered for non dom status.
And I repeat. The reason the numbers can't be found is because it's to the governments advantage to be able to fudge them.
"No, it's because you don't have to register with anyone: freedom of movement means just that. You *can* register with your country's embassy or consulate or whatever, but you don't have to. So all the figures are based on those figures: guesswork. Nobody knows how many British people there are in France, either.
This stuff is harder than you might think."
Those aren't figures, they are finger -in-the-air estimates, which is, apparently waht our immigration figures are too, according to recent revelations.
Why not doing this analysis as a proportion of the land size of the country?  This is a flawed analysis and is aimed to make England the most densely populated country from the current 5th place.
The vast majority of the UK is free space.
Speaking with conviction as another idiot who can't be bothered to look up the figures, I say with equal probability that none of those countries is three times the size of the UK.
"UK: 243,610 km2
Italy: 301,338 km2
source: wikipedia - cannot be bothered to look the others up, as what you are saying is clearly BS anyway..."
Agreed...and the UK and England are not interchangeable terms.
But they are BIGGER than the UK, are they not? So they can probably absorb more immigrants than we can?
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"This could have been argued in a decent language.... So it just shows the thick head. I have used 'probably' and I wasn't far off ..
Uk - 243 sq km
Spain- 505 sq km
Germany - 357 sq km
Italy - 301 sq km
So these countries are much bigger than UK if not three times and so can accommodate more people per sq km than UK."
"""I wasn't far off""
Said the guy who doesn't see that big a difference between twice as large and three times as large! Not to speak of between 50% more and 300% more.
:D"
"But Belgium, Denmark and the Netherlands are all smaller - and also have larger immigrant communities.
Area is not a particularly important factor as nearly all of us live in towns and cities anyway - especially migrants - and the population density in towns and cities are pretty similar from country to country."
"Why not doing this analysis as a proportion of the land size of the country? Germany, Spain and Italy are probably three times bigger country than the UK if not more.
Here we go again. I know this must be true because I want to stop immigrants.
Population density per sq kilometer
UK 260
Germany 225
Italy 198

Area Germany 357,000km2
Uk 243,000
Italy 301,000
So in an article about facts, why not say that 300 is three times as big as 243?"
"Nope- not more per km2, just more people overall. But this does remind me of a post I did several months ago:-
Is the UK overpopulated?
UK- 673 people/square mile. Compared with other Western countries open to lots of immigration:-
Canada 10
Australia 8
USA 89
Compared to some other random European countries often considered destinations for migrants:-
France 303
Germany 593
Denmark 337
Only Holland and Belgium have higher in Europe- although England itself has a population density higher than both at over 1000.
Then there is the environmental point of view:
UK carbon footprint = 5.4 hectares/person = 324million hectares for the UK.
Unfortunately the UK is only 24 million hectares, so we expect an area 12 times our size (the size of India, or 2 Irans, or 3 Ethiopias) to counteract our carbon for us- completely irresponsible and making us a massive contributer to climate change.
Could we reduce our carbon footprints? Well, Findhorn, the most sustainable community in the UK, still has a carbon footprint of 2.71 hectares/person- despite producing all their own electricity (and in fact exporting it), consuming at 44% of our rate, and producing 70% of their own fresh food. So, in a word, no.
Basically, we cannot sustain such a big population. Net immigration needs to end as we already play a major part in costing the Earth."
I heard huge swathes of teh North East or was it the North West are unihabited and desolate,
"Ha ha you have won an award for the most pathetic use of stats today!!!!
Lets think
Austrailia for all of it's charm is mainly a desert
Canada is mainy Tundra covered in Snow for long periods
USA again has large deserts, vast mountain ranges and huge prairies given over to agriculture
You missed off Greenland!! I bet we are more crowded than a country that is really a a glacier (or used to be!)
Antarctica, hardly anyone lives there, that prooves your point"
"The comparison was merely to put our density into perspective, not to provide a direct comparison- that is why I then moved on to look at European countries. But I hope you feel like you got some pent up anger off your chest anyway- perhaps learn to spell simple words like ""Australia"" and ""proves"" before throwing stones.
Instead of that part of the analysis, what about the stat that our carbon footprint is 12 times bigger than our landmass and 6 times bigger than we could realistically reduce it down to? You ignored that part."
Yes, intentionally missing Spain, which is 505k sq km to fit the specific argument.
"The specific argument being that Spain (area 505,000 km2) is three times as big as the UK (243,000 km2).
But6 not being a liar and havinbg done sums at porimary school I calculate that Spain is bigger, but oinly twice as big as the UK..
But having listed as three times as big as the UK, not only Spain but Germany and Italy you get self rightous because one of your three is twice as big. I assume you are a Ukip member from your concern with accuracy.
An intelligent being might also consider that a larger part of Spains land mass is uninhabitable. And of course Spain does have as many immigrants a year as the UK."
*Gets popcorn to await outrage from righties*
wtf?
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"It is not at all clear how HMG knows that a person has emigrated.
The outflow figures are guesstimates at best."
"Despite the inefficiencies of the UK Government, they are already aware of statistics such as this. Further, they are also undoubedly aware of research into projection on migration. Such as research by the OECD http://www.oecd.org/els/mig/imo2013.htm which suggests that in order for Europe (and the UK) to maintain current standards of living up to 2050 it MUST increase immigration substantially. This is because of an ageing population and shrinking birth rate and diversification of economies. And this research states that even if every single person currently unemployed in the Uk was found a job, we would still need this increased migration. Ranstad's ongoing labour market analyses describe exactly the same thing. Neither ranstad nor OECD are migrants rights organisations (for those who dont know!) but are hard nosed money focused organisations fully embedded in neo liberalism.
Now the statistical facts and the results of well conducted research might not form the basis for an excitingly charged discussion about ""indigenous"" British people, and ""drains on services"" or even ""Muslamicicism"" among the ignorant but they actually form the real basis of any meaningful discussion on migration. And the challenge of migration is not going to be how 'we' (what me and Dave are from the same culture so have a lot in common ?) deal with the ""hordes"" of horrible foriegners coming here with their lovely spices and taking over our fast food takeaways, but how we - any of us - are going to eat if our economy collapses due to the shite, short term sloganeer based, short sighted parochial, stupid, xenophobic, ill-informed, unsustainable, unco-ordinated career led politics of contemporary UK (or Europe come to that!) and migrants dont come because its too crap here.
The duty of politicians is Government (policy) but also governance (how to govern well so that the nation functions peacefully). On policy, the last few Governments have gotten it all wrong because their policy is not based on evidence but on their own desire for control which they estimate is best supported by appealing to simple minded prejudice and convincing ""us"" that they are the ones best placed to protect us from that thing to be feard the most - horrible old 'change' (that's always caused by someone else). This approach - instilling fear, encouraging prejudice and scapegoating, the sun wilol never set - is the opposite of good governance because it runs away from reality and the real challenges of living in this great big, ever changing, beautiful world.
About the only true thing about UK politicians is that they are not responsible for many of the changes in the world. This isnt because they tried their best to shape the world positively but because they're too busy lining their own pockets as far as they can see (about to the next election, or at best the next job after they've cashed in on politics). If our politicians were even half as good as the migrants I work with at assessing what's really important then meeting consequent challenges with optimism, industry, integrity and no fear, then this country would be a much better place, and much more secure (in every sense)."
"I have no problem with these people, but you might want to spare a thought for the unemployed factory workers who's job they'll be filling for minimum wage.
They largely send their money home to their families providing a nice little boost to Poland, Lithuania, but damages the already fragile UK economy.
With 10% unemployment we only need a fraction of the unskilled migrants that come to these shores every year. However, we have a large skills gap in this country and those skilled jobs should be advertised to educated/skilled foreign nationals who want to come and contribute to UK society.
UK nationals working and living abroad are different to the unskilled migrants who live and work here. I have two degrees and a healthy bank balance - when I've worked abroad, I've rented a nice apartment and shopped at local stores which boosts the local economy. I didn't share a cramped bedroom with 20 other Brits and send my monthly cheque home to pay for a mortgage which would have acted as a drain on the community I was working in.
Essentially, welcome foreign workers, but ensure they have the skills the economy needs at that time. With 10% unemployment and an already struggling domestic workforce, unskilled migration at current numbers is simply unfeasible."
I agree with what you say about the unskilled workers however, I would point out that many of the British unskilled workers who now complain that they cannot find employment, were in many cases unwilling to take jobs when everything was booming pre 2008. Many now are only seriously looking for employment because the option to park themselves on long term benefits is no longer open to them.... But I do agree that we shouldn't be letting in unskilled workers when we have plenty of our own.
"Absolute balls.
As a former Eastern European UK migrant I used to work in the IT industry, my fellow compatriots were either also employed as IT professionals (software engineers etc. a several of them) or were in similarly skilled professions. I had a friend, a compatriot as well, who was working for J. P. Morgan (let's leave aside the morality of that), another one was a solicitor, another one an engineer at the Land Rover plant in Halewood, Liverpool, another one doing a PhD at Birmingham Uni... shall I go on?
I lived with other migrants while I was based in London from other parts of the EU and again I had a friend working as a software engineer, another one doing a PhD in economics, a third one doing a post-doc at UCL.
The above is pure conjecture."
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Whereas what you're providing is just examples, not stats.
"The skills the UK needs are ""all"". There is not simply a skill shortage in the UK (although there is that) there is a labour force shortage. THis may sound anti-intuitive when there is such massive unemployment but the fact is that our economy is not big, wide or diverse enough to sustain standards of living in the long term. And even if we sent all the immigrants 'home' ( I know you are not advocating theis by the way) and employed all the unemployed thereby shrinking the population (by about 280,000 depending on how you define immigrant) from a total population of 60,000,000 to something smaller ( still over 59,000,000) this basic fact would exist.
Note that this is long term. But this is the reason that economists are so alarmed by austerity. Because in creating austerity and making large numbers of people redundant, Govt is removing cash from the economy. And the argument that the private sector will make up for this removal has no evidence base to support it: all the evidence suggests that you need a healthy mixed economy (public and private employment) of sufficient size to support all the other functions/processes of a state, however they are funded. Take health care - it does not matter where the money comes from - private insurance schemes or national funded pot - if it is not paid for by wages then there is no health care. Its a complicated dynamic mix of population size, requirements of population not in work, proportion of population in work, wage rates and overall size of economy. Our economy does not have enough of the population in work or enough people of working age to fulfil the requirements that this part of the 'equation' demands. Which brings us back to migrants and skilled/unskilled and the real discussion we should be having which is the Government's handling of the economy (which is what this actually boils down to) and whether it is based on real long term analysis or knee jerk short term populism. By not discussing the real links between issues, it is clearly short term popularity they are pursuing."
"The option to park yourself on long term benefits hasn't existed since 1945, when most workhouses were closed in favor of a welfare state.
The myth of the 'benefit culture' is patently absurd to anyone who has claimed benefits (at least over the last 15 years of my experience) You can sign on for at most 6 months if you're able to work, maybe as much as two years if you're a mum. Then it's training or some kind of makework. More recently of course there has been the 'find a job or starve' premis.
Unless you're a Lord. They get benefits for life."
"Over-education among A8 migrants in the UK
Good enough for you?"
"Ever since embarkation controls were abolished some 25? years ago all immigration statistics became pure guess work. The IPS only targets a tiny tiny percentage of inward and outward passengers. Interviewees are often economical with the truth. Visitors whose real intention is to stay permanently will, obviously respond that they are visitors. Currently net immigration figures are very crudely calculated. They include the couple of hundred thousand UK citizens who are emigrating to southern Europe, Australia, New Zealand, USA Canada etc.
Perhaps we are too hooked these NET immigration figures. Surely the real worry to the majority of the UK population is the actual number foreigners coming to settle here. Those with skills who are not taking jobs that could be filled by unemployed UK residents are obviously welcome.
Illegal immigrants are not mentioned in the article – they number way over 1 million if one includes their dependants. They do not contribute to our society – they are a drain as we spend over £1,300,000,000 (yes £1.3 billion) on legal aid, housing, minimal benefits, medical care, and education for their children.
I am surprised the statistics from the 2011 Census have not been mentioned. OK, the illegal immigrants are not recorded but surely all over stayers were not enumerated. Tax codes? Most people have a tax code even if not working. Talking of which I note that the 2011 Census records 55% of all Muslim males of working age who are not students are registered as not having any work.
I have to smile at the graph of long term migration from 1964 onwards - I was indirectly involved with compiling the figures from 1964 until the late 80’s. Everyone in the IS and Home Office knew then that they had been massively massaged. To give a definite number of immigrants arriving annually is impossible. A rough guess will have to suffice."
"You really don't want to be quoting Home Office predictions as part of fact checking. Remember how they predicted that only  Poles would arrive in Britain?
Unless the Home Office has a better crystal ball this year, its estimates are no better than your average taxi driver's."
half a dozen
There once was a time when the UK was glad that more than half a dozen Poles arrived. Otherwise, the Battle of Britain may have been lost.
I have one really good Argintinian friend (whose an italian national), and as a result know about several Spanish people living and working in my city; a couple who are maried to uk nationals. They all work really hard, non have ever claimed benefits here and two have recently gone back to Spain to work. I know another five UK nationals, who live and work in Germany and France. One regularly travels back to the UK to work. It's how we now live in Europe and it's great that we have this oportunity. Perhaps the Conservatives should head the lessons learnt by Leicester City Council, which once put an add in a Ugandan newspaper to discourage Asians from settling in Leicester. It didn't work and remains an embarrassment despite the genuine apology the council has since made.
"It is not an East European influx that is the problem it is all those Scandinavians and north Europeans.....ruddy Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Danes coming over here and taking our jobs, land and oxen.
And the ruddy Royal family too.....they are all German....Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Battenburgers the lot of them. Taking our royal jobs, land and oxen too.
Send 'em all back I say."
Send all humans back to Africa, give the UK back to the hedgehogs!
This article is itself clearly biased in favour of immigration and is not factually clear because even if 350,703 people leave the UK whilst 566,044 arrive and there is a net increase of 215,341 which is hardly a small figure and we need to remember that of the 566,044 new residents if they don't speak English then they will put a strain on schools and the NHS etc. Whilst we are often told that the British go abroad to work and retire, generally, they don't emigrate in order to claim benefits and one of the major pulls to this country is the relative ease with which benefit entitlement arises for new arrivals who will have paid nothing into the system and in some cases (probably a minority) are unlikely to ever pay anything in... Most British people are fair minded but I think they do get annoyed when they see people arrive here and park themselves on benefits and expect/receive social housing pretty quickly - we all know it happens, it isn't fair and it breeds resentment amongst those who wait patiently in the queue and feel overlooked when they are not helped. Articles like this take no account of this and seem to imply that we must keep endlessly welcoming immigrants when we are unable to adequately many of the people who are already here.
'We all know it happens'. No, I am afraid I don't. How do you know that yourself? Facts, please, no prejudices.
No it is not "clearly biased in favour of immigration". The article sets its stall out from the beginning to take a look at real and verifiable figures. The fact that you don't like the figures and you would rather stick to your scare stories that "we all know happen" is sad for you, but ultimately and happily this article proves you wrong.
"This article proves nothing, except we are all in the dark, a true mushroom society kept in the dark and fed on bullshit.
Everybody can make out reasons for or against immigration, MO won us a gold medal in long distances or TB is back because of immigrants from Asia. The worst reason is immigration is good because we are a multi cultural society or immigrants are responsible for knife crime.
If we had genuine facts (indisputable) then we could all make our minds up, but the biggest thing to remember is not isolated cases or Daily Mail misinformation but HOW DOES IMMIGRATION IMPACT ON JOBS,HOUSING, SCHOOLS, HEALTH."
"Many migrants speak better English than the locals. Strain on the NHS? without migrant doctors, we wouldn't have one, so no, not really.
Most migrants are not entitled to benefits. Those that are have paid in back home - and hence have paid for the ex-pats there. Plain swop, with slight advantage to the ex-pats, since most places have a more generous regime than here.
Migrants are much less likely to receive 'social housing' unless you count 'family member bought house and is renting for peppercorn'. Most housing associations require them to become citizens first - which takes years of working."
What if all the WASP american descendants of Brits return here ?
Not terribly on topic, but the woman in the photograph covered a fairly useless part of her visa on her passport and neglected to cover the important stuff like name and passport number. Information like that is quite risky to put out into public view as it can do a lot of damage to the bearer if placed in the wrong hands if that makes sense.
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"Behind this current debate about net migration is a phenomenon of greater historical relevance to Britain's economic decline. That being the massive loss to the British economy of the millions of skilled workers who left the country from the 50s through to the early seventies: the legions that left for Australia under the assisted passage scheme being a pertinent example.
The overall negative impact of this exodus on Britain's long term growth performance has, it seems, been rarely discussed by economic historians or industrial economists."
Yet another Polish delicatessen has opened near me this week. And the clothes sore that had been around for donkey's years until it closed down some months ago is apparently going to become some sort of fancy "patisserie". These Europeans are everywhere! In fact I may even be one myself.
store
"We should be more concerned about non EU immigration as the country should at least have control of that The issue around the lower rate of claim of benefits is in my view misleading- if active adults are emigrating to a new country the primary reason should be to work, support themselves and to contribute to the economy. So we should be expecting a significantly lower rate of benefit claim in any event.
If people are coming in to do unskilled jobs in the economy the taxes they pay do not actually cover the real costs of health and schooling if they have children.
In a study by Dustmann et al from UCL published in 2012 The Review of Economic Studies showed that immigration had pushed down wages for the bottom 20% confirming the fears of low skilled British workers that it had a significant adverse impact on them in particular. There is plenty of local labour for these jobs. We need training and work for this lost generation of young people from the UK now leaving school and university.
Ordinary people can see the strain on the health service and education for themselves, they don't need politicians to tell them what is happening in front of their eyes. They are having to open primary schools in office blocks in the nearby town and the local General Hospital is under massive pressure from the increased demand from healthcare."
Half a million social homes given to new immigrants since 2001, no stats on hw much hosing benefit, probably not so many are EU immigrants , but how many British migrants get subsidsed accomadation?
"They are also very keen on buying them, aware of the profit to be made typically £50,000 on a small flat.
Take that money back home and they're almost a millionaire.
So it helps to reduce our stock of council housing for our people."
"""Our people""?!
Please, I beg as a white British citizen, please, do not count me among ""your people""."
different classes experience immigration differently. when I go for a job I compete against many people some are from eastern europe, sometimes I get the job sometimes I dont. I average 3 days work a week. I need 5 to live. You cannot ignore the law of supply and demand unless you are middle class. It's not race- it's capitalism- but no one can tell me my chances of getting a job will be easier if there are more people competing for that job.
"I think your first sentence explains the lack of understanding many of the Guardian readership have regarding this issue. While the Guardian could be generalised as a newspaper read by the middle classes, I live in what is traditionally a working class area of inner city Leeds. I haven't experienced increased competition for work places in my field, but the difficulties I experience living here are around anti-social behaviour by elements of the migrant population. These challenges have ultimately led to me feeling compelled to move from a home I have been settled in for several years.
It is extremely unfortunate that those whose lives are significantly and negatively impacted upon by elements of the migrant population are unable to share their experiences without being branded racist or xenophobic, although I can understand that anyone not having first hand experience of these difficulties might not be able to sympathise. There are of course huge benefits to be enjoyed by the movement of people to and from our country but there are also significant challenges and it's a shame that those who legitimately raise these issues are dismissed as BNP or UKIP nutters."
It is all the English emigrating to Wales and Cornwall that create problems; not learning the language and/or culture
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"Correction: this should be ""meaning that net immigration has risen since 1997"".
Net migration would be total immigration plus total emigration (the two forms of migration), if it meant anything. (Although ""net"" wouldn't really mean anything at all here.)
Net immigration is total immigration minus total emigration. That is what is obviously meant here."
"Lies ,damn lies and statistics. The big problem with the article is the assumption that immigrants are universally spread round the country. It may be a fact that its 7or8% total in the UK but in certain areas its 50 or 60%.
If there were a bigger % of skilled, semi skilled and not the more important number of unskilled then the labour market could cope and more chance of getting that job they applied for.
Numbers are not the real problem whether correct or made up, its the impact on local areas thats important. The class sizes and how many different languages spoken, housing availability, over burdoning of the maternity wards plus 200 applying for the same job.
Mona can question the numbers but I defy her to question the impact it has on areas like Tower Hamlets and Ladywood.
May be she can hide a few facts herself but she and others should explain why the most deprived areas have the highest % of immigrants, the areas with over 20% unemployment rates are in these areas."
Millions of people moving around Europe leaving families at home , casual low paid work, crowded accommodation , hostels, pushing down wages, rogue landlords and employers, social disruption. Supported by the Guardian and probably Norman Tebbitt.
Are there any stats available for the numbers of murderers and criminals coming here from Poland and Lithuania?
I don't know but the SUN and other the Tabloids seem to know a lot about British Criminals in Spain. They used to print loads of stories about them.
Can't help noticing that you appear to have disclosed a child's full personal details - name, date of birth, nationality and passport number on that photo at the top. Not great.
The man from Demos on C4 News last night was rude and would not the guy pushing the statistical reality like this get a word in. He looked and behaved like a man who was pushing a polemic and not one comfortable he had the numbers right.
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Bloody hand-wringing Guardianistas! Why do you want to waste time looking at real numbers and analysing them openly and fairly? Why can't I just be left alone to demonise anyone who has a slightly different accent to me?
""" Countries like Romania and Bulgaria are often quoted as the countries that will open the floodgates - despite a Home Office commissioned study that predicted 5,000-13,000 nationals would arrive from EU's new member states per year after EU enlargement.""
, so up to 500,000 could be realistic."
"If you had wished to be completely honest, you would have added that that underestimate was based on a assumption of only dropping movement restrictions when the rest of the EU did - but we dropped them several years before everyone else instead.
In the case of Romania and Bulgaria, we are in fact maintaining movement restrictions for as long as the rest of the EU - so the forecast can be considered credible."
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. U never fail me.
"Everyone is so hung-up on the effects immigration has had on the economy that you all fail to recognise some people come here for political reasons, and by that I don't mean asylum seeking.
I mean people who are not necessarily pressed by joblessness elsewhere and who, in fact, actively choose to relocate to the UK because they prefer this country to their home country, or any other country, financial gain excluded.
These people would therefore be very likely to master the language and adapt to the culture and traditions here. Doesn't this constitute much of the debate around immigration that you are ranting and raving about - integration?
Or, does it come down to the British simply not wanting ANY sort of foreign-born nationals to enter the country - bring immigration to a halt so to speak - regardless of whether immigrants would be willing to assimilate or not, regardless of how keen they are to become part of this country or not?
I haven't heard anyone even consider this possibility, and I suspect you may be missing a very good point."
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Thank god, you've written this. Totally agree. Gordon Brown was right about her.
"oh dear
someone got out the wrong side of bed this morning.
i can't read rants, they just wash over me."
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i never even found out till 10 at night what he called her bigoted for.
"oh for goodness sake, grow up! and put that faux wounded whine back to bed.
worse things have been said about immigrants than what came from Mrs Duffy....her question was actually fairly reasonable and hardly something to be defied as you wish.
By the way, my view is the more eastern europeans here, the merrier - they work hard and are generally well behaved and contribute rather than leech like so many of the indigenous folk."
"This article makes a very important point and makes it well. Why is it OK for Gillian Duffy to be a bigot?
She should be the one apologising. What this whole affair does is tell us a lot about the right wing press and the conservative party. Normal people aren't bigoted like Gillian Duffy. She doesn't speak for Britain and she doesn't speak for the British working class.
People from Eastern Europe have worked hard and given a lot to this country and most of us are very happy that they're here. And the opportunities we have for going to other European countries are wonderful. People like Gillian Duffy want to take that all away. I'm most angry with her because she wants to make sure my children have doors closed to them, chances removed, because of her own stupid bigoted prejudices. And the conservatives agree with her."
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"The difference is between the words and the person speaking them.
She has been fed the line by the media that Eastern Europeans are ""flocking"" here. It is unfortunate that she believes the media - but a lot of people still do.
The words are not hers, and yes, the words are bigotted. She however is not a bigot.
I'm with you on the franchise question too. EU Citizens should be able to vote in whichever EU country they are currently residing for income tax purposes. It's the old problem again - taxation without representation.
On the apology front I doubt you'll get many/any - but you can have mine for free - sorry our Media is so bigotted that otherwise decent people have their minds filled with lies. Sorry we tax you and don't give you a vote."
An anmesty for all Eastern Europeans - I say ! Vote LibDem !
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The BNP is becoming mainstream and it's becoming socially acceptable to say vile things about "foreigners". Brace yourself for more.
I think you are overreacting. I am not defending the womans views which I do think are limited and biased and probably based on what she reads and watches. But still I think you need to relax.
"Please explain more. Who is ""we""? What opportunities do normal British people with only generic skills have for working in other European countries? Why do you assume that your children will be ""special""?
The original article reads like something out of Viz."
"I can't believe this blog has been pasted into the Guardian.
If Gordon Brown's comments after his chat to her hadn't have been broadcast, then what she said wouldn't be an issue like this. Anyone who says it would is either deluded or just a liar. This is getting beyond a joke now.
Leave the woman alone. Get a grip."
"I was also a bit surprised that there was no criticism of her 'flocking' description whatsoever. Gordon Brown could have apologised for the incident but then explained that that kind of description is derogatory and inflammatory, which is presumably why he reacted the way he did.
I don't know - maybe she's not a bigot, but she's unthinkingly using language associated with bigotry, certainly."
"As I short person, I don't appreciate being called a short person - but it doesn't stop me being one.
The same applies to bigots I guess."
We know - but lots of British people - and plenty of politicians - have been playing this game for decades: just ask anyone from the Black and Asian communities. Bashing migrants (and their British descendants) is an easy way to get cheap votes.
"My East European wife says
a) She likes the UK and most of the people.
b) You need to get a grip."
"Hey Milena
Having had a ten-year relationship with a second generation Polish immigrant and her family, I can stand up and say that they are the most honest, hard-working, down to earth, morally resolute and charming people any British chap could hope to be involved with.
In fairness, Gordon Brown stood up for you, calling this odious woman a bigot. Something he's being absolutely caned for. A nugget of hope here is that for every person who won't support Brown for his still disrespectful opinion of this woman, many more are genuinely refreshed by his immediate response of calling this spade an odious spade. And for that, I applaud him."
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Aren't they? I think that many people are fearful of what they have and look for someone else to blame for their problems - I think Duffy is all too normal and to suggest otherwise is to avoid dealing with the problem and will allow parties like the BNP to dictate the agenda on economic migration.
"Good if understandably angry article. All those of you with nice safe UK passports have no idea how alienating Brown's (aka the moral compass) statements on 'british jobs' are - if he doesn't want my partner in the UK, maybe he'll have the decency not to take her taxes?
If Brown had any guts over challenging racism he would have challenged St Duffy to her face ... of course as is a key part to his cowardice, he prefers to slink off and moan to himself.
When he used the slogan 'British jobs for British workers' he knew its links to the NF and he still did it. His government has had no qualms at running YarlsWood and detaining children without charge. His government is as pathetic at challenging and standing up to racism today as he and his ilk have always been."
"At no point did Mrs Duffy say anything bigoted, if you don't believe me perhaps you'll believe Brown, Balls, Cooper, Johnson, Prescott, Mandelsohn, Bradshaw, Miliband Snr and Jnr. All have stated that nothing Mrs Duffy said could be construed as bigoted. What do you persist with the lie?
Anyone stating here that she did is a liar, plain and simple."
"Milena.
You probably do pay higher rate tax and probably do put in more than you take out. If so then, as far as I am concerned, you are welcome to make the UK your home.
But there are plenty of other Eastern Europeans who are not, the criminal elements especially.
You need to grow a thicker skin. Gillian Duffy was not bigoted, she simply asked where all of the Eastern Europeans were flocking from. If asking a simple question in today's society causes even the Prime Minister to regard one as bigoted then I guess there is no hope for millions of us."
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Why would they need an amnesty? What on earth are you talking about?
"Exactly true. I tend to challenge people when they quote mistruths about immigration round me (such as my friend who claims the only reason that he's unemployed is because of the polish, rather then the fact he's lazy. Or the same friend that reckons the Polish people are stealing fish out of the local fishery) and the amount of contempt you get back makes me wonder how eastern europeans feels about these kind of rumours.
However, expect the general reaction to this article to be something along the lines of 'oh grow up and stop been so soft' line, probably from thousands of people that phoned in to complain when Russell Brand said a rude word on Saturday night radio."
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"I'm sorry that you felt so badly about someone questioning the state of immigration in this country. But it was not directed at you, despite the words used. It was an example of the recent immigration that the UK has had, which is indeed largely Eastern European. What she wanted to know is; does it damage services? Does it stop vulnerable people getting benefits? Again no-one actually answered her questions, badly worded as they were. Instead they sneered and sniped at her uneducated background.
She may be ignorant, but she's not a bigot and I will not call her one to make you feel better. I'm sorry for that too."
"Milena
While I appreciate you may have found events disturbing yesterday, Mrs Duffy's comments were of a generic nature. I hate to say it but you're going to find some of the responses that will be posted here today very personal and upsetting.
Like them or not (and I don't), the views of Gillian Duffy are probably representative of a substantial percentage of the population in this country. Due to the fear of politicians of all of the major parties to engage in full and frank discussion about the impact of this, many of these views have been allowed to fester. I fear you may need a thicker skin."
"I can understand your position and I have a lot of sympathy as I have some idea how alienating the experience of being an immigrant in this country is.
I think the problem with Gordon Brown's remarks was his contempt for the voter. I think what people were reacting to was the contrast between the ""nice"" public image and the bitchy stuff behind the woman's back. I happen not to agree with Gillian Duffy but she has a right to raise the immigration question with Brown without being insulted.
I can't speak for anyone else and I think you're right, there are a lot of closet (and not so closet) bigots out there. But I don't think that was what drove the reaction to Brown. It was the mixture of incompetence and contempt for the people he's supposed to be representing."
Who`s a bigot ? Gordon lost months ago .
"You have certainly over reacted BUT you certainly have a point and a valid one but so does this Lady
This countrys economy would certainly collapse without immigration and besides if there was no immigration where would we find all the beautiful women................
But you got to blame the media on this cause all they do is bang on about the negative side of immigration and boy do they bang on an on about it so this Old lady she buys the daily express and gets it bang day after day on the front page she has been influenced by the media which isn't to excuse ignorance but explains it........"
"When I heard the recording of Gillian Duffy talking to Gordon Brown it sounded to me like she said 'fucking Eastern Europeans', which is why I assumed that Brown called her a bigot (in that he misheard her)...
In any case, legal immigrants do this country a world of good and do jobs that a lot of feckless, lazy Brits wouldn't touch with a barge pole as they think that 'menial' jobs are below them. If we took all of the immigrants out of the NHS for example, it would collapse in a matter of minutes.
But no, much better to blame all of the immigrants for all of the problems we face. I can understand why the author of this piece is so pissed off."
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"I can't help thinking this would work better on the Daily Mail website, to spell it out to their cosseted readers. I would imagine most Guardian readers would say ""I agree"" with this article.
And I'm a Ukrainian living in London, by the way :)"
"Good for you. We'll have as many of these as you can spare and we'll remove the ones that don't.
Fair enough?"
"This article is absolutely spot on. I live with someone who lacks the wonderful UK passport so can be taxed and insulted at will.
More fundamentally what yesterday showed was the utter cowardice of mr moral compass, Brown. If he was offended, why not stand up and say to St Duffy that she was wrong as opposed to slinking off back to his lair.
Brown knows his 'British jobs for British workers' tripe was a slogan of the NF, yet he chose to use it. The man on this, as so much else, is a pathetic coward.
Now wait till this thread is overrun by the usual bunch in a frenzy of rage that someone else might have somthing that really should be given to them."
What she said was "unacceptable"? Who are you to tell others what they can and cannot say? Many people are quite rightly concerned about the levels of immigration in this country. People who can't find work because immigrants are doing it, those who have to wait longer for hospital treatment, those who have to wait longer for social housing and those who find it harder to get their kids into the local school. These people aren't bigots, they have genuine concerns. These issues may not have affected you but they have many others, climb down from your high horse and try and see things from other peoples point of view.
"Why do left wingers hate their core vote so much?
It beggars belief that any low skilled or semi skilled person could ever vote Labour. Wise up, they loathe you."
"""The slow, sad realisation that the political culture in the UK is such that no politician has any choice but to grovel to the bigots""
Well done. Yet another person affirming the BNPs argument that one gets called a 'bigot' or a 'racist' as soon as one questions the 'progressive' party line on immigration.
I don't even have any strong views on the issue, but I get annoyed that so many people use these insults as a cheap means of shutting down the argument, while inadvertently valididating the BNP.
GB et al should do themselves a favour - address people's genuine concerns and stop using childish insults."
"I am in pretty much the same situation in the USA I pay enormous sums in taxes. I have purchased property and am moving my family here. But in two years when my visa runs out in the present climate I am unlikely to be able to remain because Americans favour Americans just as Australians favour Australians and so on and so on
It isn't rational but all I can do is shrug, I'm not American and I can't force them to let me stay and I understand that in uncertain times people react against foreigners and I'm indistinguishable from them.
The UK is a much smaller place than is the USA and although I haven't lived there now for more than a decade I can understand completely how many of those who have lost out in the brave new world that is multicultural NuLabour Britain might be less then happy about large-scale immigration.
If I get to stay in the US it will be because I have 'exceptional ability' , in Australia and elsewhere a points system is used, I'm pretty sure that's the way the UK will have to go not necessarily because it produces better outcomes but because it is seen to be fairer to those already in the UK."
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I'm an immigrant too and that's how I felt.
"You can't take this stuff personally. What the silly old woman said is pretty much what you'd expect a silly old woman to say. There's not point getting wound up about it.
It's a bit dodgy that the press has glossed over whether or not what she said was acceptable, but that's because there is a far bigger story here - the assassination of Brown.
For what it's worth, as an Eastern European myself, there's a lot of rubbish about immigration which doesn't stand up to proper scrutiny (and no-one seems to want to address the issue of the black labour market which is pretty much propping up the building industry, the hospitality industry and a lot of menial labour around food / supermarkets) but really, I know in Russia there are just as many racist people and you simply chalk it up to a lack of experience most of the time."
"_AT_ thfc123:

What a bigoted remark -- how dare you?! We can do much worse than this. ;-)"
"Flocking" is a legitmate scientific description which is applied to the study of non-directed group behaviour. Look it up.
"Mielena, I'm the son of an immigrant father and a British mother, my father's father came to this country from America, as did many people from Poland, to contribute to the safety and security of this country. I more than most understand how you feel.
That said, I found nothing offensive in what Duffy said. It is true that Eastern European immigration was much higher than predicted, it is true that the government doesn't know how many people from abroad enter the country or how they do so.
What did disgust me was the comments about immigration from other posters and commentators after the fact, I can understand your pain but if you want to be angry at someone, be angry with the media for spinning this the way they have, be angry with the people at Britain who've made these vile comments about immigrants. Don't be angry at someone for being honest about the fact that we don't have a decent immigration policy, not too harsh, not too soft, simply not fair or organised.
But don't feel disheartened and think this country hates you, I don't, and many others feel the same, we're just not the ones shouting and calling up the radio and tv stations to spew our hatred."
many of us don't have to ask - many of us feel this way about the only politics in which we should have a voice.
"Oh, and people who call Brown 'bitchy' or 'two faced' or any of that nonsense have clearly never said something nasty about anyone in private or out of their earshot, and employ 100% honesty at all times, even if it's hurtful.
Hmmm....
Even politicians should be able to have opinions that aren't nicey nicey all of the time. Do we really expect them to be perfect and never even think or say bad things when they think that they are in private?"
Gordo should have shown some backbone and stood by his comments. Mrs. Duffy was behaving like a bigot.
"Well done Milena, good comment. Shame most British people don't seem to think so because they're terrified of their European neighbours wanting to get one over on them. Please.
As a dual British and German citizen whose partner and friends are from eastern Europe I wholeheartedly agree with you and apologise for this country's backwards attitude towards immigrants. I'm leaving this country soon because I'm fed up and need a change of scenery. Better to visit from time to time than to live my life surrounded by bigots."
Anyway, considering that "words failed her", I think Milena managed very well.
"I hate to say it, but that's life!
I've been on the receiving end a few times in my life - get over it.
You'll *never* stop people being bigots, but they are generally outnumbered.
Heaving great big sobs?
Oh please, grow a pair already - I find that hard to believe.
I was relentlessly teased at school for being a foreigner and when returning here to Britain was teased again for having been overseas ""go back to Africa, you wog"" - yeah, whatever, eventually it made me stronger.
Duffy is wrong, but she also has a right to express her opinion - as far as she's concerned, she's correct.
Millions of people in this country are stupid enough to think Muslim = terrorist - what you gonna do? You'll never change their minds.
Move on, please, just move on and drop this..."
"i think the fact you deemed it necessary to write this bit says it all really:
desperate attempt to reclaim power, to find some leverage: I wonder if I can stop paying taxes, if I can get some sort of campaign going for all immigrants to stop paying taxes ? I bet they'd notice us then. Oh, I wonder if I can challenge Duffy to take the citizenship test
yah boo sucks to you as well.
ask yourself this though if this level of immigration had happened in say poland would it be accepted as quietly and with as little complaint from the natives?"
If this offends you then I would like to know your views on the treatment that most East European states, media and population give to the gypsies and black immigrants within their own borders.
"As someone who lives in Rochdale and has done for the past 22yrs I can see where Mrs Duffy is coming from, I think the problem is she didn't articulate her feelings very clearly. Rochdale is a very proud town with a lot of social issues at the moment, and people are feeling very let down in a lot of ways.
Now as someone who's father in law is from Hungary, who came to this country in the 50's as a refugee when it was classed as an Eastern European country, I can see the other side of the argument. I agree with the article in that we should take our time to understand why people are coming over here and what there story is, we should never judge!"
Yes, Ms Duffy's views are fairly normal and yes, they are fairly uninformed. Milena, you need to take a deep breath I think.
Nasty, brutish and , thankfully, short.
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"So what your saying is that every country in the EU other than the UK and Ireland is populated by bigots because every single one of them limited migration from Eastern Europe when the EU was expanded in 2004?
As one immigrant to another, I need to tell you that you really need to get over yourself."
What you did to her was help to pay her pension.... I agree with you, I was a student in the Netherlands, an employee in Brussels and then came back home. I was an economic migrant and don't recollect being spoken to like that when I lived abroad. If the indigenous population (see Evan Davis' recent programme) were not feckless and idle and the education system in the UK had not been so systematically debased, we probably wouldn't need the immigrant labour that we import. However, I am happy to champion your right to use the EU freedom of labour rules, and add to the GDP growth we had in recent years.
"I too am an immigrant; just sayin. Standing up to be counted. I manage to disappear into the crowd because I'm white and a native English speaker who no longer has much of an accent, and I do now have a British passport. I've contributed far more to Britain financially than I will ever get back; that's as it should be. Britain is now my home.
I tell you what though, on the occasions I've commented on immigration threads I've been surprised by the ""get-back-to-where-you-came-from"" attitudes towards me of those Ciffers who assume, because of my Guardian username, that I'm brown and probably Muslim."
"You can have an apology from me Milena, for what it's worth, because like you and probably the lady in question, we are all from stock that immigrated to this country.
The women's name is Duffy, so either her or her husband, probably immigrated from Ireland, like myself, but while so many white immigrants, forget the experience after a generation, I do not.
Britain is the country it is, not only because of the people that draw their heritage from (well how far do you want to go back?), but the people that came here to earn a crust and improve the economy her and add something to the shared culture.
If you look at popular culture in this country, where would most Guardian readers be without the contribution of John Lydon, Morrissey,Shane MacGowan, the Gallagher brothers all off spring from Irish immigration from the 50s and 60s who found something in the local culture and their own to make something different and make something that most people would say is distinctly British.
Possibly Gillian Duffy draws her own heriatage from the same time, the irish were derided and suffered discrimination and violence and did the jobs the host population didn't want (i.e. the lower paid jobs in the main) just as Eastern Europeans do today, but just as the Irish did, so will the Eastern Europeans will lay an abiding marker in the country in their own way.
Why can't the likes of Gillian Duffy understand that and why do politicians have to apologise for making a comment that I myself might have made and why aren't we talking about the point Brown made to her that as many Brits move abroad as Europeans assimilate her.
It is bigoted because instead of a Yorkshire accent next door, she has a Polish accent, just as her or her husband's forebears spoke in an Irish Brogue rather than a Yourkshire one."
"So what your saying is that every country in the EU other than the UK and Ireland is populated by bigots because every single one of them limited migration from Eastern Europe when the EU was expanded in 2004?
As one immigrant to another, I'd like to tell you that you really need to get over yourself."
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"Flock, according to the OED:

So are you 'legitimately' calling Eastern Europeans sheep, birds or Christians?"
"_AT_orchidsoroysters

and so now you hate all polish, or assume that it is the fact that this person was Polish rather than the fact that this person didn't get insurance and can't drive all that well are the important points.
would you have prefered to have been hit by an uninsured english driver?
extrapolating from one incident to stereotype a whole group of people is considered well, bigoted.
can't believe you need to have this explained to you."
Beyond parody.
"Here you have an example of the depoliticised culturalised 'politics' which results from the administration of capitalist economic determinism. The liberal capitalist class have culturalised political life to the degree that issues like race, immigration and identity cannot be addressed as the critical language of real political discourse has been jettisoned in favour of the pragmatic admin language of the private individual and the corresponding economic fetish that is undermining democratic action.
Identity politics has killed genuine political exchange leaving only racists on the one hand and dishonest 'sensitivity' on the other.
Never mind...trudge off to your village halls and schools in May and keep supporting capitalism folks...they'll be needing more and more of your money to ensure liquidity etc etc The greeks may be up the creek but at least people there have the balls to get involved and get active. In good old blighty we just love to moan, watch and do nowt."
"You want a bunch of people to bully an OAP widow. That?s big of you.

Not true. You vote in Council and European Elections here, and you vote in your own Country for national elections.

She?d pass. She?s old enough to have had a proper education.

You chose to do this. If you want sympathy, buy a cat."
"Gillian Duffy had every right to ask the PM that question. Maybe you are the bigot to complain about her freedom of speech?
Immigration is a problem for this small country, if other countries had the influx which we have, then their indigineous population would be asking the same questions.
This article only succeeds to promote the likes of the BNP and not rational debate which is what is ultimately needed.
I would suggest that the author's objectivity is clearly questionable, and that apart from the comments made on this system, nobody is preventing her freedom of speech!"
"Apparently, lots of Australian commenters on other threads last night asking what the fuss was all about, and saying we're all too thin-skinned over here. Calling someone 'bigoted', they were saying, is positively genteel in Oz political discourse.
OK, a different culture and vernacular there, but salutary message perhaps."
And so the smear campaign begins ................ digsusting.
"thfc123

Because they know they'd have been crucified (even further) by the British media if they did so."
I agree completely it is very sad that due to the way politicians need to win votes they have to appeal to the majority. Therefore even if Gordon does think and want to say what he said he can't expect to win votes like that. Even worse though for him is that I agree with what he said and if he'd have come out and said that he ment what he said then I would have had more respect for him. It probably wouldn't have changed where my vote is going but still.
Oh get a grip! I'm Welsh and my stepchildren are Scottish. We put up with much worse.....
I'd be interested to know, given her surname, whether Mrs. Duffy isn't from immigrant stock herself. Duffy is an Irish name, ain't it? 'These flocking Irish,' you can imagine her equivalent asking some decades ago, equally redundantly, 'where are they all coming from?'
I've got a British passport. However, for most of my adult life I've argued that it is class rather than nationality which is the key division in society. I have much more in common with an East European hospital porter or teacher or nurse than I do with the Duke of Edinburgh. Or Richard Branson. Or David Cameron. The reason politicians suck up to bigots is because bigotry is fostered by most of the media and the mainstream political parties, because divide and rule is the name of the game. If people can be made to believe their lives are shit because of Eastern Europeans rather than because of the fact that capitalism systematically screws ordinary people in order to sustain the profits and vast fortunes of the very rich, the better it goes for the very rich. It is essential for those who rule our society that they con us into scapegoating some relatively powerless group, whether blacks, gays, gypsies or immigrants. It's called false consciousness. Or bigotry.
"Those of you commenting along the lines of ""stop whining"" have presumably already forgotten the news footage of Brits, stranded by the ash plume, whinging on about how the locals were 'giving them no support... or food, or transport (back to this far more enlightened and welcoming country). Can you name a single EU country in which expatriate Brits are treated as an underclass, and stereotyped along the same lines as ""Polish plumbers""? If not, what basis have you for responding as though anyone who complains about bigotry in the UK is an over-sensitive ingrate?
And as for the claim that ""Gillian Duffy was just asking a simple factual question"" - please - don't be so disingenuous. She wasn't asking for a geography lesson; she was raising the question of how far the next government should flout EU legislation on the free movement of citizens, in order to favour the interests of UK nationals - and Gordon Brown was being too conciliatory to tell her his real views to her face."
"Debating immigration is always uncomfortable when you're an immigrant yourself, or the child of immigrants, because it feels so personal.
And flocking is a wounding word; a metaphor that compares people with animals is unkind.
Given our glimpse of Gillian Duffy, it's hard to believe she's a bigot though. Just someone who raised immigration amid a scattering of issues that concern her, and borrowed somewhat ugly language from the media to do it.
I thought Brown handled it reasonably well face-to-face, but the conversation in the car was an overreaction. The Vine show and the home visit were agonizing to watch. Because of the initial over-reaction, it became harder to engage with what she'd said in the first place.
And its opened the door for the BNP to pitch a repatriation proposal on the Today programme..."
"I am not an Immigrant, my username is simply a nic name that has stuck with me from childhood, before anyon begin to pre-judge me based on merely my name.
Anyway, now that is out of the way, I am in my mid 20's, I work full time and have friends who have 'flocked' from Eastern Europe to come work here. I don't work in a city, I am working class son of an ex-miner and I am appreciative of those people who come to this country with a desire to work.
In regards to the 'bigotgate' situation, this is the first time, let me repeat that, the FIRST TIME, since it all exploded in the public news that I have finally known why she was referred to by Gordon Brown as a 'bigot' and to be honest, I agree with him. Now I am not going to suggest that there is empirical proof that Ms Duffy is in actual fact a bigot, it could well be that due to her exposure to certain forms of media, the opinion that Eastern Europeans are indeed 'flocking' (somewhat akin to the scene from Jurassic Park, 'They're, erm, they're flocking this way') like a horde of uncontrolled animals, which, let us face facts, certain newspapers are wanting us to believe.
BUT, what I am suggesting is that, had an MP, journalist, public figure used such a turn of phrase, they would be expected to apologise or at the very least explain their opinion, it is the least I would expect to happen.
In regards to Ms Popova's article, it may be a tad dramatic to the outside observer, but the essence of what she is wanting to convey is fair enough and should be respected, not denounced and insulted.
I expected better from the readers of the Guardian, but it seems some readers want those flocking Eastern Europeans to come here and work towards the betterment of our country, but to just be quiet about it and remember to bloody well say thank you at the end!"
"Milena,
You're very brave for saying what me and a lot of other people feel about this and daring to challenge the cosy media consensus. I don't believe Gillian Duffy is an out-and-out bigot, but many of the views she aired (parotted largely from what we're fed every day in the right-wing press) are at best misinformed. Living in London, you see the overwhelming benefits to this country of immigration - which far outweigh any negative consequences.
If Brown should face any criticism at all, it is for pandering to the moronic prejudices of the right-wing press and apologising"
"Mrs Duffy has absolutely nothing to apologise to you for.
It is perfectly reasonable to mention immigration as something that politicians should address and whose scope requires the consent of the people.
Your history and circumstances in no way invalidate her perception of the consequences of immigration. Just because you get angry doesn't make you right - your emotional response is an issue for you. It doesn't create any obligations on anyone else - particularly when your emotional response is so divorced from the reality of what she said.
She said nothing to make her a bigot. She said nothing to deserve your contempt. Your insulting rant it totally out of order.
Democracy requires a demos. There are those that are part of that demos and those that are not. The distinction should be drawn by identifying whether or not you hold a British passport.
Take that distinction away and say goodbye to democracy, the welfare state, community cohesion and all the shared values that bind people across the country together.
Your rant says a great deal more about you and your sense of entitlement than it does about Mrs Duffy's.
Please note, the above is in no way a comment on the characteristics of any person of any nation. It is very specifically about Milena Popova as she has expressed herself here."
"Flocking
Not Flock
Flocking
Jesus wept!"
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"Milena,
I'm glad you wrote this article.
It made me think of all the British folks who migrate to other countries, some small, some large, some do it legally, some do not. Why are they never called immigrants? I used to make a joke to my partner, doesn't matter where one goes on the planet, you will always find a Brit there."
"My anger at Gillian Duffy and all the people who didn't stand up to her
Pathetic, Eastern Europeans have flocked here, even if the flocking has slowed down lately, that's a fact, not racist. If you can't express your worries about your country being overwhelmed and services stretched by poor immigration controls without people calling you a bigot then the world's gone mad.
Way over-sensitive rant, actually a nasty tactic by the Guardian of trying to defend GB's bad attitude to voters by attacking this poor lady again."
"I sympathise with you as well Milena.
From the moment I first heard the news reports I was thinking Brown was right to call her a bigot because what she said *was* unacceptable. I expected the issue to go away. How naive I was!
I think there is a question of hypocrisy in Brown calling her a ""good woman"" to her face, but that can be put down to civility. He is after all dealing with the public, and with the national media.
I'm not even a labour supporter, but I don't wish Brown to lose support over speaking the truth in a private conversation that the press was snooping in on. He's shown all the contrition required and more. Certainly more than I think Gillian Duffy deserved.
I am deeply concerned over this streak of xenophobia which is quietly thriving in this country."
"Just asking politely...

Did nothing disappoint you about your new life before this? If I left my home behind, eyes wide open, I'd expect my new hosts to have some foibles, skeletons in the closet, maybe worse. Spotlight on the concept of entitlement."
"_AT_MilenaPopova
Perhaps it is you that needs to put yourself in other people's shoes and educate yourself. It is true that immigration has made a net contribution to the UK economy but the benefits are unequally distributed. The people who receive almost no benefit from immigration are the white working class, people like Gillian Duffy, who believed that the Labour Party represented their interests.
The WWC have to compete against immigrants for jobs. Immigrants who often have a better education, better skills, and are working for greater incentives because they often send money back home where it is worth more. Even pro-immigration reports have concluded that immigration has had a small but negative effect on wages generally. This is before we even get to the fact that the WWC are often more dependent on services that are put under strain because numbers of new immigrants are not recognised when spending is planned. Finally, I think it is right to take into account people's feelings about how their communities are being changed by immigration. Not negatively, but it is a change over which they have no control. Please remember Milena that you chose to start a new life in a strange country, people whose home towns have changed so much did not have this choice.
As for your swipe at British people's sense of entitlement, I'm flabbergasted. British people should feel entitled to a livelihood and political representation, because this is their home country. You seem to think you are more entitled to vote than a British citizen, which is a notion I find quite offensive.
I've lived as an immigrant in (v briefly) Poland, Spain, and Hong Kong and so I do understand how hard it is to start a new life somewhere else. I also think you should show respect towards the people whose country you've emigrated to. This article is just self-justification and shows no interest in why some British people are antipathetic towards immigration. Why don't you find some of these people and ask them, in a nice way, and tell them you are just trying to educate yourself.
Or at least stop being so f***ing patronising."
"My word - Flocking
Your word - Flock
Can you spot the difference?
Jesus wept!"
Mrs Duffy is only voicing concerns felt by lots of people of her generation in the North and politicians haven't done enough to put them at ease on the subject of immigration. Papers like the Mail do nothing but fan the flames of fear and scaremongering among this population. Poor Mrs Duffy, ofcourse she's allowed to ask Gordon about it.
tim0 : ah yes, the Duke of Edinburgh... that flocking Greco-Danish immigrant... ;^)
I agree! GB was right for once. Great article.
"MilenaPopova

Milena, much like you describe, I am seething with anger right now. But for rather different reasons. I don't want to be deleted, so I am going to try my hardest to be painfully polite here.
I live in an area of inner city Manchester that is very similar to the area Gillian Brown lives in nearby Rochdale. We have had strong immigrant communities for decades. Our children go to very mixed schools and play with each other, our friends and neighbours are variously white British, black, Asian, Irish, Chinese, African and European. We befriend each other, frequent each others' shops, businesses, takeaways etc etc etc. We chat to each other in the queue for Netto. Many of us date each other. Mixed relationships are very common. The last time the BNP put up a candidate for the council they got about 50 votes here.
We muddle through, and we get on with each other.
Over the past 5 years, our community has been rapidly and dramatically transformed. Within a square quarter mile around a thousand East European Roma have moved in. They have become the single largest ethnic minority almost overnight in our particular neighbourhood. It has caused both practical and emotional turmoil for many people. We are a very tolerant, diverse community. There has been no rioting, no firebombing, no racist graffiti. We've been generally welcoming and friendly to individuals.
But again and again, I have heard my neighbours say things like 'where have all these Eastern Europeans come flocking from?' It's a genuine question. People cannot understand why they are here, why they have come to this country and in particular, why they have come to our neighbourhood. They just genuinely don't get it. Nobody thought to warn us it might happen. Nobody bothered to explain.
I can understand you feeling hurt by what happened yesterday, but don't you dare tell people like Gillian Duffy to educate themselves. Don't you dare tell people like me to 'educate ourselves.' Don't tell us to 'talk to immigrants' as if we've never met an immigrant in our lives before.
And above all, don't you dare tell people like my friends and neighbours, someone like Mrs Duffy, to become a 'better person.'
How dare you?
How fucking dare you?"
"leftofwhat - are you a member of the BNP? Your language seems to indicate this.
What exactly is a 'native' Briton, given that they are Kelts, Vikings, Anglo-Saxons (a hybrid in itself), Normans and much more thanks to the exploits of Empire? If you want an 'ethnically pure' Britain we shouldn't have gone around the world massacring people and then enticing their relatives over here to rebuild our shattered country after WWII, should we?"
"Oh boo-hoo. Isn't the normal right wing refrain that everyone show self-reliance and stand on their own two feet? Then these ""normal British people"" of whom you speak should get off their arses and learn some bloody non-generic skills shouldn't they, the lazy fucks.
Your posturing as a Champion of the Working Man is about as convincing as Nick ""Cambridge"" Griffin's.

Fine talk from you, RudiGunn, since you're so often heard to complain that ""leftists"" are ""censoring"" debate and stifling your ""free speech"".
So unless the author of this piece agrees with the slanted viewpoint you've presented, she has no right to be part of the debate, eh? Charming."
"I am a Uk citizen living In Eastern Europe and I am huge supporter of Eastern Europeans livin in the Uk. They are brave, hard working, resilient and the petty bigotry I see on these sites appalls me.
Milena, I am horrified that not more ""fluffy"" libs don't stand up for you. You have one here. I even had a minor hit two years ago trying to get the whole of England to support Poland in Euro 2008. Google londontowarsaw
Generallly Britian is a tolerant place and I take great pride in that. Less Gillian Duffy, but more the disgiusting aftermath and righteousness, really rerally saddened me
By all means attack anybody who fiddles the benefit system, whatever colour, nationality or creed. What is totally unacceptable is generalising about a minority who respresent some of the most hard working, worst paid people in the country."
"Gillian Brown?
Don't think she married him did she?
Gillian Duffy, I meant."
"I'm not sure you understand how words work?
Just so you know, 'flocking' present participle of 'flock'."
"I, and millions like me, agree with what Gillian Duffy said about immigrants.
Does that mean I'm a bigot? I don't know. All I can say that if it does, then I really couldn't care less, and being called an insulting name for daring to have my own opinion about a certain matter will not change my mind. In fact, it only reinforces my view."
"_AT_racingsnake I never once claimed the Brits abroad are great. I never claimed that other countries are not better than ours or that complaining about bigotry was a bad thing. I pointed out that this particular woman is not a bigot. She asked about the budget deficit, about tuition fees, about her three priorities of education, the health service and protecting vulnerable people. What a bigot she must be!

Indeed. And you're right, he didn't answer her questions because he immediately dismissed her as a bigot and not worth addressing. Why you think UKIP and the BNP have risen? Attitudes like this. We need to stop being so condescending and answer the sodding questions. It should not be a crime to ask them."
As discussed, it is a legitimate term, however are you aware of the Pole of Peterborough who have taken up living in people's sheds.
"Milena,
""Anger at Gillian Duffy, anger at all the people who weren't willing to stand up to her.""
Are you completely off your trolly? Mrs Duffy was out for a walk to the shops, minding her own business, when she was introduced to Gordon Brown by one of his aides. She didn't go out humble him or to disparage anyone else. She was polite and so was he; so what was there to stand up to?
Why do you assume Mrs Duffy is a bigot and not somebody for is talking about what she sees around her? The flow of people into Britain from Eastern Europe has been been on a far larger and faster scale than anything seen in recent years. Are people not allowed to talk about it? Is it only for politicians to discuss immigration on leadership debates like last week? Or is it a taboo subject only to be referred to in defence?
Ever immigrant into a nation has a story, a real life, cares, fears and aspirations. As do the people they live amongst. Many families can trace their immigrant relatives one or two generations ago (I certainly can in my family), and that was a time when a 'flock of' would have been one of the very least offensive descriptions a typical pensioner might use. I have lived and worked abroad; yes it can be lonely - but you just get over it as that's offset by the benefits.
If that's the kind of thing that makes you break down into tears - take a deep breath, smile and don't fall into the trap of thinking everyone is out to get you."
Given the rest of your "taking all our jobs" rant, this is supremely ironic. I doubt if you've ever tried to see the other person's point of view in your entire angry little life.
Excellent article and fair play to the Guardian for having the balls to represent this important perspective. Is Duffy a female Nick Griffin? No, but the left needs to guard against this normalization of bigotted language, which is a barrier against any politics based on class solidarity which needs to be our focus.
"Can you name a single EU country in which British people have emigrated en masse and do the jobs ""locals don't WANT to do""? I can't.

A)Most people don't live in London.
B)I'm not sure that lowly paid Londoners would share your enthusiasm for immigration.

They are, by the people in the countries they emigrate to. That's how it works. To us they are emigrants or ex-pats. To the Polish people in Poland, their countryfolk who have moved to Britain are the same."
"Milena, I've read the transcript of the whole interview. Gillian Duffy is a bigot and I would happily tell her so to her face, which is more than Brown did. She also displays a bewildering ignorance of the rights of EU citizens.
The story is not about that, it is about Gordon Brown being willing to call her a bigot behind her back, and criticising his own staff for setting up an interview with her - basically blaming anybody but himself for his own crass mistake. And that raises a valid question as to the personality and integrity of the man we might or might not want to elect as prime minister.
You are very welcome to work here as far as I am concerned, but you protest a little too much, and the British people are better than you think. The electorate will tell Gordon Brown what we think of him next week. I don't think you will be displeased."
"Epic Lulz
(as the yoof say)
All the people who were displaying rather pathetic and unconvincing faux outrage over Broon's comment yesterday are now telling Milena to get a grip.
You couldn't make it up.....well obviously you can and will :)
What Mrs Duffy said was fairly mild and Gordon's ""gaffe"" was equally mild. (Where was the reputed foul mouthed vulcanism he is supposed to exhibit at every turn?)
You are all mental or desperate or both."
"AllyF
not wanting to denigrate your own personal experience, but statistically far more Roma have emigrated to latin countries like Italy and Spain than have come to the UK - it's a language thing. Sadly, Italy and Spain aren't exactly renowned for their tolerant attitude towards immigrants and I hope the UK doesn't go the same route. If we do we'll be throwing banana skins at black football players again soon."
For someone who has lived in the UK for ten years, Miss Popova, you appear to have little or no grasp about the concerns many people have in relation to immigration into the UK.
"_AT_AllyF
Thank you. That was wonderful."
"What Gordon should have said is either:
'Where are these Eastern Europeans flocking from? Eastern Europe you cretin' or 'that woman was an annoying, idiotic old bag' . You can't throw the 'b' word around so lightly during an election campaign.
Don't fret pet. This is an overblown media storm not a personal attack by the public on you or anyone else from 'abroad'. Roll on May 7th."
"""A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices..""
Mrs Davis listned to GB and after the interview said she was impressed by what he said she cannot be called a bigot!
""flocking"" is the collective motion of a large number of self-propelled entities and is a collective animal behavior exhibited by many living beings
Her choise of words is niether insulting or incorrect.
Gordon Browns behavior show him to be both a hypocrite and a bigot"
As the grandson of 'flocking' east Europeans, I think this is a very good article! This is basically Murdoch setup trying to shift the focus Cameron's loss of ground to Clegg. If anyone believes that in this global economy, the blame for Britain's ills can be laid at the door of immigration, they are expressing bigoted views (it may be possible that they are too simple or ill informed to be branded as bigoted).
Gillian Duffy obviously has strong opinions on immigration. I don't see what the problem is. The UK is a democracy and people should be entitled to say whather they agree with the government's immigration policies without being accused of being a bigot.
"Since she is a guest here, and this an issue about the natives, she could at least make the effort to understand our POV before lecturing us in that snidey and patronising way about being better people. I'm with Ally F on that one.

I do know how words work. One is the term gillian Duffy used, and one isn't. She didn't say they were a flock, she said they had been flocking.
I have googled the word and once you get through the contemporary references you find many for the beahviour of crowds, shoppers on Boxing Day and so on.
The word was legititmate and you would have to have a mind as ugly as Browns to think it makes someone a bigot to use it."
"why do people say the Guardian is world's most sanctimonious newspaper, normally read by bleeding-heart types??
where's the evidence?"
"FoucaultsNightmare
""The difference is between the words and the person speaking them.
She has been fed the line by the media that Eastern Europeans are ""flocking"" here. It is unfortunate that she believes the media - but a lot of people still do.
The words are not hers, and yes, the words are bigotted. She however is not a bigot. ""
Well said!"
The white working class are not one big cuddly group, they are very diverse and most of us do not support ignorance and bigotry. You can be working class, read the Guardian and not be a racist, please don't forget that and if Mrs Duffy was my mother, gran or aunt, I would tell her that she was offensive and try and educate her to why. I would not be using her as an icon of the "poor victims in the white working classes" she is no Edith Cavall or Rosa Parks, she is simply a disillusioned northern woman who is blaming society's ills on the immigrants.
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"So everyone should become ""middle-class, educated professionals""? In that case, who would do the jobs requiring only generic skills?
The country should be run so that everyone has the opportunity to earn a respectable living, whether they work emptying bins, or as a lawyer. To gerrymander the system through immigration, ensuring that a large proportion of your population sees a drop in their living standards so that a minority can see theirs rise, is nothing short of evil, particularly coming from a party whose reason d'etre was to represent the interests of normal working-class people."
"_AT_ JeevanVasagar:

Interesting deconstruction of the 'flocking' usage, Jeevan. Like pigeons, perhaps, with connotations of nuisance and vermin. That hadn't occurred to me. Just slightly more of an echo, then, with the Margaret Thatcher's notorious 'swamped' remark before '79 election than I had registered before."
"Wow. There are some vile comments on this thread. Whether or not Mrs Duffy is a bigot (something none of us can know based on her limited remarks), there are certainly a hell of a lot of bigots on the Guardian comments thread.
Milena, I am sorry that so many Brits are ignorant bigots. I wish they weren't. But not all of us are."
"Milena, there are plenty of really bigoted people in the UK. I think singling out this woman for a seemingly innocuous comment is wrong when there are many real targets out there. Read any Littlejohn article, for instance.
I came here from Northern Ireland and have a British passport yet still get people accusing me of stealing jobs. My usual reply is usually along the lines of: ""if you educated yourself properly, you could have had my job""; or ""that's what you get for occupying my country for hundreds of years""."
You have my 100% support. People from Eastern European backgrounds are making a huge contribution to the UK's economy and society. I was embarrassed by Mrs Duffy's rant. And am now embarrassed that all the media are treating her as a poor harmless sweet old grannie. Her views are toxic. No one would now say what she said on live TV about migrants from black or Asian backgrounds. People from other parts of Europe deserve the same respect as any one else.
"_AT_stevehill

So call her IGNORANT then. She's not a bigot. What, pray, did she say that displayed an intolerance of other people's opinions? How was she biased except in favour of benefits to the people that need it most; of free education; of a good health service?
She wants answers and nobody has ever bothered explaining immigration policy to her. She doesn't understand. That does not make her a bigot."
Can't the media just leave the poor woman alone? It's you lot who are the bullies, not Gordon Brown. And that includes priviledged media commentators who are immigrants from Eastern Europe. I'm sorry Milena, but you are the last person who is disenfranchised.
"~

By 'bigot', do you mean someone with a narrow outlook, who refuses to consider others point of view, labels them, and calls them offensive names based on stereotypes ?
Just wondered thats all...
( Oh the irony. )
~"
"Is that Politician to Politician or Politician to Public.
If the former, then no worries.
If the latter, then they need to reassess."
"Milena, thank you for writing this article.
Many people in this country have a gift for subtly humiliating 'foreigners' and I am sure you have been at the receiving end of them all - speaking slowly, asking 'Where are you from?' when the question is not at all relevant to the situation, talking about 'back home' when the person has lived here for three decades and has a sole, British passport etc etc You cannot change this. And the British are not the only nation behaving like this. Although perhaps the most hurtful. It goes on even in the corridors of ostensibly enlightened and egalitarian institutions.
Mrs Duffy was not even in that league. She was simply...bigoted. Her 'question' was irrelevant and inappropriate for the tone of the meeting. It was something she spewed out. Brown should have responded directly but to his credit he remained civil. Some voters may switch to Labour as a result."
"Well Milena Popova you need to look at things from our point of view.
A few months ago I had because of urgent family business to visit my old home area of High Wycombe.
I was shocked to the point of tears at one point and wondered if I had missed passport control and the border.
It just is no longer England, and many English towns are now the same.
Working class white English people now feel marginalised and forgotten in the place of their birth.
This is due to the sheer numbers of immigrants ""flocking"" to some areas, it is not bigotry to feel uneasy about it."
"I think the something that's been overlooked was Nick Robinson's comment on the 10 o'clock news last night, that The S(c)un(m) had interviewed Mrs Duffy but had ""not found her sufficiently interesting"" to run an interview.
Not ""sufficiently interesting"" in what sense? Not slagging off Gordon Brown enough? Or perhaps not ""sufficiently interesting"" to their agenda.
Maybe in her not ""sufficiently interesting"" interview she put forward other views that bore out Brown's opinion and that Mrs Duffy is nothing but a bigot."
"Damn good article and as predicted, the backlash has already started on Mrs Duffy.

The fact that Gordon Brown has been pilloried in the media has completely overlooked the fact that what this woman was saying was in fact - bigoted!!
And now, the media seek to give further legitimacy to those views from the likes UKIP to be given prime-time space on the radio to whip-up an anti-immigration frenzy by telling bare-faced lies about 'uncontrolled immigration'.
I despair."
It's the election and political parties and the right-wing media are looking for scapegoats in order to supposedly ingratiate themselves to what they see as us 'dangerous, great unwashed, ignorant masses'. The think we're really stupid and bigoted and the main groups that they try to whip up hostility towards are immigrants, gays, transsexuals, the unemployed and those on low incomes. It's like a British version of the pogroms that used to occur in eastern Europe until quite recently.
"That woman was BIGOTED. Period.
Sorry for the pain you suffered Milena."
"thfc
""It beggars belief that any low skilled or semi skilled person could ever vote Labour. Wise up, they loathe you""
I am low skilled and semi skilled - who do you suggest I vote for?"
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"""My anger at Gillian Duffy and all the people who didn't stand up to her""
My anger at the entire news media and all the people who waste time on this non story while there are far more important questions like:
Why did the entire media go along with only considering The Trio of Neos ideas (Neo-Labour, Neo-Conservative, and Neo Liberal) as being the only ideas we should consider.
Brown continues Thatchers policies, Cameron is a closet Thatcherite, and Clegg?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/11/nick-clegg-praises-margaret-thatcher
says it all really.
There now remains a ""choice"" of a right wing government, a right wing government, or a right wing government. So the distraction coming from the right wing media happens to be some kind of right wing straw man debate.
Very convenient. It means the election can be distracted from much larger and much more REAL issues.The unemployed know wages are kept down by a compliant import of labour from poorer economies but never is the issue of the hidden unemployed in government mickey mouse schemes raised by any of these Right Wing Trio of Neos.
Very very convenient.
Let me guess the other two parties have just not been caught with the same game and really it does not matter which party it was done to it suits them all."
"How did the British working classes go from being salt-of-the-earth spine of industrial Britain to being derided as lazy chavs, benefit scum, bigots, idiots, and everything else under the sun?
It seems that every time immigration is dicussed you get posters who delight in telling us they prefer the immigrants because they work harder, and the British worker is somehow essentially lazy and feckless.
I don't like to hear racist views, I think that immigration has benefitted our country, and I am politically active on the centre left. But I find it extremely distrubing that the concerns of the least advantaged people in our society are ignored and then those people are sneered at."
"Isn't it amazing that everybody is freely talking about the ""flocking"" Eastern Europeans, who almost to a man/woman has worked hard in this country without costing the tax payer a single penny, has made no demands on religious or cultural front and has asked no favours from the housing, social services or the police or indeed of the politicians. And many, hundreds of thousands have now left our shores just as quietly as they came. Yet they're portrayed as pariahs!
Why not a word on, say the Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis or indeed the newest addition to our multicultural family, the Somalis?
Those that single out Eastern Europeans are the real bigots."
"I am on first name terms with one of the guys who washes cars at my local sainsburys. It's a fiver to wash my car. I give him a tenner each time.
I know he has a daughter of a similar age to mine back home who he hasn't seen in 2 years. I looked up how much a return flight to Uganda might cost so he could see her again, but at £700 each way it's just prohibitive. Besides, I don't even know he'd be able to get back into the UK. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was on an expired student visa.
If it wasn't for people like him, I doubt there'd be a car washing service at my sainsburys. I don't get the sense it's a job British people want to do, so I hardly think he's 'over here, taking our jobs', so to speak.
So Milena, I do 'know' an immigrant and I have spoken to him and indeed learnt something. And that's to be thankful I don't have to wash cars everyday thousands of miles away from my family.
But that doesn't stop your article being complete hogwash. Gillian Duffy is no bigot. If you feel vulnerable or unwanted or persecuted by living in Britain I'm afraid you can't blame people like Gillian Duffy.
Follow the money a few dozen rungs up the social ladder right to whereabouts Gordon Brown and his ilk reside, and there's who you should be pointing your finger at."
"""You need to grow a thicker skin. Gillian Duffy was not bigoted, she simply asked where all of the Eastern Europeans were flocking from. ""
From Eastern Europe obviously and I suspect she knows that. It's a figure of speech, she knows where they come from she's just not happy that they're here."
"Milena: the people here are tribal and feel threatened. One comes to a new country and wants to feel safe; this sort of incident adds to the unease that one feels. I understand why you'd cry, and why there'll be a lot of baffled people considering you a bit wet.
It is terrible that it is only who the media decides are victims that politicians make a fuss over, but politicians need to be elected in order to do their jobs.
People are lazy; they like their opinions prepackaged, like convenience food. Me included: I make a huge impact on my opinions by buying the Guardian.
It is slightly better here now than when I was a child in the 70s. I think my experiences probably haven't been as bad as my parents'.
But the people here, I'm sure they're like people *everywhere*, and feel uncomfortable with the not-we, especially when they're propagandised to. If anything, the people here are probably a bit better. Take the shock of being discriminated against, and do something positive with it."
"JosephStash:

I fear you're confusing 'Guardian readers' with 'people who comment on CiF'"
One can almost see Malcolm Tucker standing behind Milena as she types.
"I think the problem is that people very easily forget this. They start to conflate you and others like you with the illegal immigrants, or those who come to the country and then sponge off it (happily forgetting that native Britons are just as mixed a bunch of decent people and lazy sods!!). They also readily forget that immigrants perform a lot of menial but very necessary jobs that natives consider beneath them.
It's just too easy to blame anything that's ""other"" while forgetting that actually, it's more complicated than that and you can't so dismissively pigeonhole an entire group of people. You're right, it is racist. Good for you speaking up."
"AllyF
Bravo. You have managed to say what I wanted to, but rather more eloquently that I am able.
Shame I can only recommend you once."
Doesn't Gordon Brown get it? Immigration of low skilled workers keeps the wage of low skilled workers down - it's no suprise that Labour's traditional code vote are against it.
"Ah, did the little old lady make the big girl cry?
Where's your anger at:
- Gordon Brown's obvious contempt for ordinary people who don't share his views?
- Gordon Brown for failing to make a case for open borders and the right of people to move around our world freely?
Most of your anger seems to be directed at a little old lady not those in power and your arguments seem more based in emotion than logic...you don't make a compelling argument..."
"I can't quite believe some of the comments posted here Milena - and there was I thinking all us Guardian readers were a bunch of 'lefty liberals'. You have not over-reacted at all - Mrs Duffy did display bigotted views and quite frankly I'm glad Gordon Brown recognises that.
What a dreadfully boring place this grey, miserable damp country would be without the colour and vibrancy a range of cultures bring to it. Thank you for being here Milena & contributing to our society & economy. And thank you indeed to all the very, very many other Eastern European men & women who do the many low paid jobs that the British white trash are too lazy to do. What a mess we would be in without you - it is about time you were paid a decent, living wage."
"mattseaton

Perhaps you should stop using it then.
There are many more, these are just the first three non Brown related usages I found."
"""flocking""
euphemism as in Father Ted?
;)"
Absolutely brilliant! Duffy's outburst and the reaction to it demonstrates once again the increasing acceptability of racist sentiment in mainstream culture. I really hope this article enables Daily Mailers to empathise with someone who is constantly informed that there are 'too many' of her type. Unfortunately, as some of the above comments seem to indicate, this doesn't seem likely.
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"I have mixed feelings about 'Bigotgate"", but I have very clear feelings on immigration.
Obviously her perceptions of immigration do reflect some peoples concerns (and this always tends to happen when any group who can readily be identified as 'foreign' come to live and work in a country in large enough numbers). Is it actually bigotry or ignorance? Or a bit of both?
Where I live we have a noticeable number of people from Eastern Europe living here now.
We also have other immigrants living in our area that nobody seems to comment about - we have a lot of Americans, quite a few Australians, South Africans and Canadians (my wife being one of the Canadians).
Personally I feel that immigration is the lifeblood of a nation and that the greatest strength of the UK is that we are the result of successive waves of it that have helped to build and define our culture and our very sense of 'Britishness'. Long may it continue. The energy people bring, the different cultural perspectives and the variety all help to make us a creative, dynamic place to live.
I think your suggestion that people should make personal connections with immigrants is a very good one. It makes a big difference to both parties - its not easy starting over in a new country and immigrants need to make friendships in the communities they come to live in for their own support as well as because it helps to break down prejudices people may have. The recent articles suggesting that things like BNP support tend to pool in areas where immigration is low rather than where it is high strongly supports this."
"_AT_farga
""By the way, my view is the more eastern europeans here, the merrier - they work hard and are generally well behaved and contribute rather than leech like so many of the indigenous folk.""
What you are saying about indegenous people of this country is a gross generalisation and very bigoted.The vast majority of Brits are hard working and decent and many just take exception to the fact that wages are being driven down and jobs are hard to come by and in part that is caused by mass immigration from Eastern Europe.
Also if the author of this article is really upset she needs to stop being so easily offended because what the old lady said was perfectly reasonable."
"Thanks Mili
I'm with you on this. Speaking as an ostensible 'English man', I am tired of listening to 'immigration' being used as a euphemism for racist argument.
Gordon was right. Mrs Duffy was making a racist (i.e. bigoted) remark. I wish he had stuck to his guns, but of course the media would have had even more of a feeding frenzy than they are, if he had.
We do have to conclude that probably more than 3/4 of the population of the country is racist and the media has sanitised (and fuelled) such views under the immigration banner.
What a mess. Personally I try to focus on our common humanity - all of us. It is difficult to embrace such bigotry though."
"Ms Popova. Following your own advice, why don't YOU go and talk to some people like Mrs Duffy and ask them how THEY feel seeing their communities swamped with immigrants? How they feel going into a shop where cashier doesn't speak English? How they feel when their children are in a school were half the kids in the class don't speak English? How they feel when they see themselves becoming an ethnic minority in their own country? How they feel watching desperately scarce jobs, houses and funding going to immigrants when they and their families are in dire need of them? And to top it off, how they feel when if they dare to talk about any of this, the PC brigade howls a stream of abuse at them for daring to get ideas above their station in life.
People like you and Gorden Brown have been desperate to stop people protesting about the tidal wave of immigration that has hit this country since 1997. A trend which we recently found out, this was done largely for ideological, and political reasons. And you have done it by the threat of being labelled a racist, or bigot.
And no, you don't get a vote in the BRITISH general election, why on earth would you?"
"It's been proved by the government's own figures that immigration doesn't benefit the economy and in fact there is a cost to local government who have to house, educate and provide free health care to them and their children. Migration watch have also produced figures which say that the benefit of immigration to British people equates to a Mars bar or 60p each.
The old lefty lie that we need immigration is still being peddled out and believed by many. If the government set up a re-training programme for the 8.5 million economically inactive people in this country we would have all the labour we need. The downside of rampant levels of immigration is more jobs are created to provide services for the increased population than can be filled locally.
Before you criticize the electorate for daring to mention the immigration word just remember that Labour embarked on the open door immigration policy not for any economic reasons but solely to bolster their flagging vote. Who are the bigots now?"
Grow up
Gillian Duffy was raising a legitimite concern of a vast amount of the country's electorate. She's not Stephen Fry and didn't couch it in the subtlest terms. But she's a hard working, law abiding core voter, Mrs Everywoman if you like, which is why the balloon went up. Brown's remark was the usual knee kerk reaction of any one remotely on the left when the subject of immigration is mentioned. If the Gillian Duffy's of this world are not allowed a voice on this issue ergo we have a proper debate then she will feel disenfranchised, her views will harden and the next person coming round for tea will be Nick Griffiths.
Good on ya Milena. It needs saying.
Thank you for this excellent article.
"_AT_Mili - I'm curious as to why you don't choose to become British?
You are evidently keen to become involved in British society - so why the hesitation? In your blog you say:
""With the general election fast approaching, I'm finding myself in a dilemma. I am not British, and while I have been living here for 10 years I have reasons for not applying for British citizenship (mostly to do with the fact that the country I'm currently a citizen of will not let me have dual citizenship). So in the coming general election, I have no voice.""
So because Bulgaria demands you show committment to their polity, you aren't prepared to show committment to ours? What is the benefit in continuing to be a Bulgarian?
What are the benefits to the UK in the long-term of having people here who identify more with a foreign country than the host country? Surely that can't be helpful or useful in building a better society?
(Especially as Bulgaria more closely fits your definition of bigoted - with 80% prejudice against homosexuals, mistreatment of Roma and the disabled, and prejudice against Macedonian immigrants - even to the extent of banning their political party:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Bulgaria)"
That is who people ARE pointing the finger at. I haven't seen anyone, including Mrs Duffy, blaming the Eastern Europeans personally, or any other group of immigrants for that matter. The fault lies entirely with the government for acquiescing to the wishes of a minority of wealthy people to the detriment of the majority of British working people.
"_AT_ Milena Popova

All true I've no doubt, and yet it's still not right to call that woman a bigot for expressing concerns over the huge influx of Eastern Europeans into Britain. Like most things in life there are pluses (which you mention) and negatives (housing pressure, jobs pressure). I can't comment on Rochdale, but perhaps in some areas the negatives have outweighed the positives.
From my perspective allowing economic migration has worked well, we've allowed a lot of culturally similar people to do many of the jobs we don't want to do anyway for low pay. Both sides have benefited. But I imagine people in the low skilled work sector will see this influx differently: and I'd put that down more to self-interest than bigotry."
Bit of British stiff upper lip required my girl!
Oh for goodness sakes. She was not a bigot. She was merely voicing the fact, I believe, that Britain is too small and under-resourced for lots and lots of people to come here, no matter where they are from. It's not about racism. I bet the countries that have flocks and flocks of Brits rocking up are less than pleased as well, but we never hear both sides of the story. There's nothing wrong at all with someone moving to another country for another life, trying to better themselves, and as you say, paying into the system etc... But if that country is small and drained of money and resources in the first place, how is that right? I am sure if you were back in your home country and it was reversed you would no doubt be bleating about your own sense of self-entitlement. Yes, you over-reacted.
"Dearie me! Such a lot of tears.
I had a little touch of the sniffles myself reading this."
"Lets be clear; Mrs Duffy is entitled, in a free society, to hold her views, even bigoted views. I have to say that Mrs Duffy did not give me the impression that she was a bigot
Gordon Brown is also entitled, in a free society, to hold his views as well as his private views.

Should there be a law to protect private views? This would help to stop desperate for news ,Sky News, and those with a regular fondness for hacking phones, from milking private situations."
"Big of you

Report him to the authorities then

Actually it is a job a Brit doesn?t want to do, and you are that Brit. I can remember seeing car washes at my local garage thrity years ago, so that argument is nonsense.

Nor does he."
"That Gordon Brown should hold a Labour Voter in contempt in what he thought was a private conversation says some important things about Gordon Brown.
For the Guardian to repeat the insult, publicly, to Mrs Duffy and to attempt to justify that insult is disgusting.
I often admire AllyF's comments although I usually disagree with them, but he has nailed it this time."
"I am a British citizen making use of my right to live and work anywhere in the EU (in my case Belgium). I have lost my right to vote in UK elections, having left the country more than 15 years ago, which to be honest I think is fair enough considering that I don't pay taxes in the UK. The last UK election I voted in was 1997 (in my case Labour).
However, I do pay a lot of taxes here in Belgium, and find it frustrating that I have no right to vote in regional or national elections here. The only way to get the vote would be to apply for Belgian nationality, which would also mean giving up my UK passport. Something I am reluctant to do for sentimental reasons that I expect most other Brits will understand.
I agree with Milena that all European citizens should be allowed to vote in the country where they are resident (pay taxes and use services, etc.), if they can prove a minimum of 12 months continuous residence. But then of course we shouldn't also be allowed to vote in the country where we retain citizenship. Spain is one of the countries that allows its expat citizens to vote. For example I read somewhere that Miriam González Durántez (Nick Clegg's wife) is a Spanish citizen and so she votes in Spain (not in the UK).
At least all EU citizens have the right to vote in local elections where they live and for example in 2008 both Ken Livingstone and Boris Johnson actively courted the votes of non-UK EU citizens living in London."
Oh aye. The cheek of it - British citizens daring to imagine that they're entitled to anything in Britain. Bloody bigots, the lot of them.
"Milena,
I missed the reports of this incident but have now watched the report at the head of this thread.
I see no problem with Mrs Duffy having voiced her concerns about the effect that immigration either has, or is perceived to have on sections of British Society. I also thought the Gordon Brown handled the question well, particularly as he is not usually adept at meeting the public. He stood up and spoke on your behalf.
What concerns me is the way in which Mrs Duffy was being used. Gordon Brown's off-air remarks made it clear that these meet the public events are heavily stage managed. The other unpleasant aspect, one which you are now contributing to, is the way that the media have set out to use Mrs. Duffy to their own ends. The reporter could not keep the glee out of her voice as she ambushed the lady and Mrs Duffy was clearly emotionally distressed when she was told what had been said.
All politicians show us the public face, and then reveal their true, private, one.
You proudly claim to pay UK tax at the Higher rate and believe that you make a net contribution to the UK economy. I would hazard a guess that Mrs. Duffy also makes a net contribution. I'm certain that very many East Europeans make a net contribution. I'm also equally certain that there are some who make no contribution whatsoever, as do some native bred people. However I wonder how somebody, who relies for their identity by following 'celebrities' on Twitter, manages to secure a higher tax Payer income.
Your remark suggesting that Mrs Duffy should be required to take a citizens test is a remark far too far. It was actually rather aggressive both in tone and context. It has undertones of be off with you, you don't earn as much as me!"
"Milena Popova
Thanks for telling us that we must like immigration.
Some immigration is good, some is bad. The unplanned unmanaged unbalanced immigration of the last 50 years has been bad."
"As a passport-holding daughter of an Eastern European immigrant I have to say that I agree with elements of the article. Yesterday I heard Brown had called a pensioner a bigot and had to wait until a lot later in the day to find out what the accusation referred to, and whether or not it was deserved. I am sick of being told that rooms in classrooms are being taken over by undeserving immigrants, sick of hearing that jobs are going to lazy Poles and am sick of fighting the corner of hardworking immigrants that have come to this country.
Initially I was outraged at the comments. I thought ?yes she is a bigot?, and it made me consider voting for this man. But after careful consideration I just thought that it?s more what the comments stand for than what was said. It was one step away from adding ?send them all back?, but it did not go so far. I think they represent a school of thought that is bigoted, certainly.
I don?t think Milli needs to ?get a grip?. I think she is, like me, totally worn down with the negative, every-day comments that we are all used to. This, for many of us, has been the straw which has broken the camels back. And if that provoked tears which have been held back for five years we shouldn?t criticise it."
"""Well Milena Popova you need to look at things from our point of view""
Excuse me, ""our"" point of view. I don't share that point of view. Are you the sort of person who feels ""uneasy"" when you walk past people talking a different language? Or people of a different ethnicity? Or even colour (as your ""white"" comment suggests)?!
Immigration is the lifeblood of this country. What do you think would happen if you sent away all of the immigrants to this country? Just ask Idi Amin.
And no, I expect you don't think Gillian's a bigot. Because you're a bigot too."
"Old lady without perfect oratory skills doesn't articulate herself particularly well when she meets the Prime Minister in front of many TV cameras and she is bigotted.
Prime Minister in prepared speech written by professional speech writers after much training in presentation skills says 'British Jobs for British Workers' and feels able to call someone else a bigot.
I bet you couldn't move for a week when you heard that one
I mean; seriously? BNP leaflet through the letterbox would bring on an anaphalactic shock.
Perhaps a more pertinant response would have been about why the lady used the language she used? It is eas to sneer when you work in relatively secure employment but there are large parts of society who are having to compete with recent migrant labour and the main differentiator is that the migrant labour is cheap. People are competing solely on price and when that happens there may, just may, be a tiny glimpse of resentment against those migrants. Doesn't mean that people are bigotted. It does mean they recognise competition"
"Her comment on 'Eastern Europeans' was a non-question, void of meaning. Eastern Europeans, where are they flocking from? Answer's in the question.
Aside from that knee-jerk reaction to the concept of immigration, I just see Gordon Brown's knee-jerk reaction to the general public.
His only regret is getting caught out.
From now on, all politicians on the campaign trail should be wired for live sound and vision all the time. That would certainly keep them 'on message'."
"Whatever the outcome and despite the tears there is no more room. It doesn;t matter what colour you are or where you are from, we will close our doors if we have an ounce of sense.
AS for Brown----------------bigot is a catch all phrase for anyone who sees what your open door immigration policy has done to this country."
"rickyatgosport

...
That'll be the descendants of the massive waves of Angle, Saxon & Jute immigration in the 4th-6th centuries, then?"
"My father and I both emigrated to Britain several years ago, and I am in fact a serial emigré. Here's my opinion:
How dare you demand a vote, are you a British citizen? No, so why should you vote? Because you pay taxes? You pay taxes to pay for the privilege of and to pay for living within a society and infrastructure that allows you to earn a living and live the way you want. Do you think this infrastructure (as shaky as it is) grew on a tree?
If you wish to be democratically enfranchised then maybe you should return to your native 'Eastern Europe' or apply for British citizenship. There are no two ways. Yes I am deeply fascinated and affected by this election but I am not a British citizen therefore I do not deserve a vote, no matter how many taxes I have paid or how many years service I and my father have given the British civil service.
Lastly, this woman is not a bigot, she is ignorant which is a big difference. If I having lived in London for over a decade held this opinion, I would be a bigot because I would have to be blind to ignore the positive effects of immigration (even if there clearly are problems with immigration, like the fact that is it vastly unregulated, hence her flocking comment, and your ludicrous statement that ALL immigrants come to work. It is NOT racist or bigoted to suggest that lazy workshy cheats/criminals come from abroad as well as Britain). However this woman is from Rochdale (no offense Rochdalians) where she may a)only see the negative effects of immigration and b) being old she has seen her country change beyond belief and if every old person who is afraid of change, losing what she knew as a child and fearing for her children's future, then my grandparents, yours and everyone elses are bigots too.
Useless article and Brown has once again proved who totally out of touch he is with his own supposed voter base. Never has the left so hated the people they're meant to defend."
"Duffy is not a bigot. She just said something which may have been interpreted as bigoted. She deserves the benefit of the doubt. Brown is an idiot for smarming someone in public and calling them a name in private. In my opinion he made a good apology though, all we need to know now is if Duffy concurs.
The author of this article should be grateful that the Duffy/Brown spat has brought her own feelings out in the open. She writes well, and with passion, but neither Duffy nor Brown are responsible for her inability to speak out to date.
Her final point, that we should all try to educate ourselves about the feelings of others, is sound advice that should not be lightly ignored. A useful lesson for us all."
I have also lived in another European country - Germany. I have also lived through an election there where I didn't have a voice. I have also experienced discrimination there, for example from officials who deliberately spoke Bavarian dialect to me knowing that I wouldn't understand it. However, I didn't hold that against the whole of the German people, the vast majority of whom were incredibly friendly and helpful to me. If we move to another country, we have to accept that these things happen. It is wrong and silly to generalise from one incident to a whole nation. My advice to Ms. Popova is to remind herself of the fact that she has stayed in this country for 10 years out of choice, so it can't be as bad as she appears to paint it.
"Its time for the liberal intelligensia to sever their ties with the distatsteful poor people with their odious views who have propped them in power for so long.
don't worry about not getting any votes any more, you can just join quangos and stuff."
"As a black woman, having just returned from an 'Eastern European' country, I've pretty much had my fill of bigots, of late.
There's nothing to disagree with in this article but I still read it thinking that maybe the experience of many other immigrants have been forgotten. The ones whose skin colour add to their demonisation. I'm not playing 'who's the most oppressed' here but let's have a more expansive discussion please about immigration and racism!"
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"I'm not entirely sure how you're disenfranchised, Milena.
For a start, you write for the Guardian. (Yes, I know a column on CiF is the journalistic equivalent of being an extra in The Bill, but even so...)
According to your profile, you've been in the UK for ten years, so you could have applied for citizenship at any time.
And, like most Guardies, you earn enough to pay high-rate tax.
Your profile says that most days, you 'self-identify' as European.
Is this one of those days?"
"Pathetic piece.
She asked a legitimate question.
McBroon did not answer it properly.
Then sulked offf to his car.
And then slagged her off
Very brave poltics !!"
Whilst i would never question your right to live and work here, you do actually have another choice Milena, and that choice is to return to the country of your birth, pay your taxes there, and live your life free from immigration issues, cos i bet theres not hundreds of thousands of immigrants back home eh.
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"How about getting off twitter and getting into the real world?
Then you'll meet normal, real people who don't all share the same opinion.
I don't agree with Mrs Duffy either. But I had this conversation in a pub surrouded by friends and colleagues (and two eastern europeans) and it was fascinating. Trouble is, you don't get many new eastern european immigrants on twitter.
'Oooh I tweeted something and no one answered me!'
Do you know how sad, lonely and pathetic that makes you sound? Opinion isn't only found online - I know its hard to contemplate, but there's a huge fucking world out there, go and investigate it.
I don't think I've ever seen someone looking to twitter for personal validation before. Is this the future?"
"Way to avoid the point I was making, RudiGunn. I'll try again.
Does Ms Popova have the ""right"" to express her opinion, no matter how ""snidey and patronising""* you, or AllyF, or the other fair-weather champions of ""free speech"" on CiF may find it?
If the answer is yes, then please withdraw your earlier remark. If the answer is no, then please refrain from complaining in the future about any real or imagined attempts to ""censor"" or ""stifle"" your own ""snidey and patronising"" comments.
_AT_HappHazzard
Who mentioned ""middle-class, educated professionals""? Not me. Your quote marks are redundant at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.
There are plenty of skilled manual jobs and ways to stand out in the labour market that do not require becoming a lawyer. There used to be a whole stratum of the working class who were proud of their skills. They were sacrificed on the Tory/New Labour altar of ""flexibility"" and the ""service economy.""
Anyone who supported this gutting of our skills base in the 1980s and 1990s has no leg to stand on now - and certainly no basis for claiming some faux-solidarity with the workers.
It's been the devil-take-the-hindmost, free-market mantra for decades in the UK that it is up to individuals to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and improve their lot, without expecting the ""nanny state"" to pick up the pieces, has it not?
So how come every last reactionary on CiF suddenly transforms into Keir bloody Hardie the minute an opportunity to sneer at immigrants arises?

Careful - you're starting to sound like the socialist that I actually am and you most certainly are not (your posting history does not exactly read like the Greatest Hits of Tony Benn; you seem obsessed with one thing and one thing only: immigration).

It's not that you don't have a point there; it's just that I don't believe for a minute that you would support this viewpoint if foreigners were not involved.

Again, I agree with the point. But I deeply distrust the person who is making it (that pesky posting history again, eh?!). When you and yours start championing the workers over the rich in our society regardless of immigrants and immigration, then I will stand with you.
For a first step, try accepting that immigrants don't lower wages; bosses do. Try accepting that if government ""should"" use its State power to ""stop immigration"", why is this less heavy-handed than using its power to stop bosses taking all the pie and screwing everyone's wages and conditions?
You see, you believe in divide and rule (although you don't know it), whereas socialists believe in workers' solidarity - whether they are East European or not."
"It is a terrible judgement on our society that Mrs Duffy didn't sound so bigoted because we are used to hearing far worse.
It is about time we learnt to celebrate the unique and disproportionately large positive contribution all immigrants make to all societies they travel to."
My father came over to Engalnd from Ireland in 1953, and we were brought up hearing about the "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish" signs he endured. Mrs Duffy was asking about immigration from Eastern Europe in the context of benefits, the general sub-text of immigration concerns being "They're taking all our jobs" or "They're all claiming benefits and jumping to the top of the housing list" I don't think you over-reacted. And Mrs Duffy was a bigot.
"sodabicarb
29 Apr 2010, 1:30PM


Well said - I don't like the way people feel they can freely slag off the Eastern Europeans in a way they wouldn't dare to do with other sections of the immigrant community - perhaps because it can fly under the racist radar. It's scapegoating and it says a lot about Gordon Brown that his kneejerk reaction was as strong as if she'd been openly racist (I'm not a fan of the man but I think his vilification has been quite wrong)
Milena - good article, I enjoyed reading it:-)"
"It's unfortunate that the power of the media in this country is such that Gordon was essentially forced to apologise for speaking the truth, in a private conversation.
This is an inevitable consequence of allowing the BNP to mainstream themselves. Being openly bigoted is no longer deemed reprehensible.
I completely agree. She IS a bigot. But then I would say that, what with being brown and all."
"RudiGunn

Yikes. What're you really angry about?
Sir, flocking is something birds do. Economic migration is something people do. Hardworking people who want a better life, who pay taxes and contribute to the economy.

Older people will always see their world transform. That's because...time passes. You imply that immigrants to this country are damaging it. In what way? By doing jobs and paying council tax?
Or by polluting...our precious...bodily fluids...?"
"so to summarise your piece...
'i am amazing, i moved here, there nothing you can do about it and i dont care if you dont like it so how dare you ask the the PM of your country a question'
Aside from your tone and victim mentatlity, i kind of agree with you. She is from a different generation, one where people moving out of the familiy village was rare. I do not know (or even care) where you are from, but i am sure there are plently of villiages and towns in your home statey where if all of a sudden 100,000's of immigrants, with a different langauge arrived there would be some older people who might be a little taken a back."
"sodabicarb
29 Apr 2010, 1:30PM


Well said - I don't like the way people feel they can freely slag off the Eastern Europeans in a way they wouldn't dare to do with other sections of the immigrant community - perhaps because it can fly under the racist radar. It's scapegoating and it says a lot about Gordon Brown that his kneejerk reaction was as strong as if she'd been openly racist (I'm not a fan of the man but I think his vilification has been quite wrong)
Milena - good article, I enjoyed reading it:-)"
"I too work abroad (germany/switzerland). I too don't have a vote for my taxes. I too get to listen to stay-at-homes moan about the bloody foreigners. Some of them are bigots, most are simply sold a line by media and politicians who want their vote. And because I don't have a vote, the politicians ignore me.
One day, soon enough now, Poland will probably have lots of economic migrants too. And believe me, they'll do it too, just like some irish did.
It isn't unusual, it's part of the territory of being an economic migrant. And there are plenty of benefits to be had too.
There: I've empathised. Now will you puh-lease stop the psychobabble about ""gaining leverage""?
But I agree about not having a vote bringing all sorts of political imbalances with it."
"rickatgosport

By which I guess you mean the descendants of the massive waves of axe-wielding, bloodthirsty Angle, Saxon & Jute immigrants of the 4th-6th centuries?"
"Apparently political correctness gets completely skewed when talking about immigration. I'm glad Brown had that reaction, I just wish he didn't pander to the bloody media.
If only there were stats showing the number of Brits living off the state compared with immigrants/minorities."
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"sodabicarb
29 Apr 2010, 1:30PM


Well said - I don't like the way people feel they can freely slag off the Eastern Europeans in a way they wouldn't dare to do with other sections of the immigrant community - perhaps because it can fly under the racist radar. It's scapegoating and it says a lot about Gordon Brown that his kneejerk reaction was as strong as if she'd been openly racist (I'm not a fan of the man but I think his vilification has been quite wrong)
Milena - good article, I enjoyed reading it:-)"
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oops lol - dunno what happened there!
"You're right. She was out of order, and bigoted is a fair choice of word to describe her.
I wonder if Gordon's failing is that he made this comment behind her back. Our political figurehead should surely rush to the defence of you and people like you when faced with bigotry of that kind, even there is an election on."
"Sorry, but I just don't feel Mrs Duffy's comments were all that bigoted. Not the best choice of words commenting on eastern Europeans, but she is just a reflection of working class Britain being concerned about their jobs.
The issue to me is not who or where immigrants come from, it's that simply anyone migrating to another country should have a positive contribution to make to that country (if it's not for asylum purposes), and should not be abused by employers to provide cheaper labour undermining the local workforce and paying the migrant workers less than their value.
There's nothing bigoted about that, and really that is what she meant. Local jobs are under threat through immigration and she had a justified concern and a right to express her opinion.
Gordon Brown had the opportunity here to make a positive response about immigration, perhaps saying how he understands her concerns and how Labour are going to deal with the undervaluing side of immigrants, perhaps expressing the points system he has already proposed. Instead he chose to publicly dismiss her concerns by telling her how many British citizens migrate abroad which justifies the migrants into the country, and then slate her behind her back for being a bigot. I wouldn't ever vote Labour myself, but Tony would have had a positive answer for her!
Personally I see a simple solution. Welcome people to the country on a points system where they can show they have a positive contribution to make, and complement that by enforcing a higher minimum wage for migrants into the country than local citizens.
That way local businesses will not abuse them by choosing cheap migrant labour over the local work force. Instead valued migrants can come into the country to earn a decent wage based on their skills and not the fact they are cheap.
However there also needs to be a crackdown on those who are working here under the minimum wage and those who are working cash in hand avoiding the tax system and the employment radar. It's not their fault however, it is the British employers who abuse this situation."
I can't get over how the UK, which let East Europeans in, gets all this endless flack and reproach, while the French, Germans, and the rest, who _still_ haven't let them in, get let off scott free. Why is this? Where is your rage at the French and Germans? Why are they given a free pass?
"If Gillian Duffy is a bigot, what does that make Nick Griffin?
It's damning that Gordon Brown has done nothing to explain the benefits of immigration, and few speak up for the ""flocking Eastern Europeans"" who have enriched our country.
But the rush by many to condemn a woman who's bemused at dramatic changes to her home town seems to prove how far ""London"" politics has drifted away from much of the rest of (specifically) England.
Which will only offer more opportunities for evil bastards like the BNP to spread their poison. John Harris had it spot on yesterday.
Those who are condemning Duffy are no better than those they seek to criticise - you're meant to be tolerant and liberal, yeah?"
"Sanctimony - Check
Patronising delivery - Check
Missing the point entirely - Check.
Congratulations Milena.
You're well on the way to becoming a Guardian staff writer."
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"Milena
Some English people have this prejudice that foreigners are ""over-excitable"" and E. Europeans ""over-emotional"". I fear you are confirming it.
By the standards of bigotry, this not very well-informed woman said nothing really seriously nasty about E. Europeans.
And count your blessings. Back in good old E. Europe (here, for example), it is hard to imagine our political leaders getting caught saying ""bigot"", about some old babicka who asked ""What about all them Ukrainians/Vietnamese coming here taking our jobs, parasiting, causing crime??? What about all them dirty gypsies?"" They wouldn't get caught saying ""bigot"" because they wouldn't say ""bigot""...if anything they would say, ""what a nice old baba!"" And if some bright young progressive thing asked, ""what are you going to do about racism and xenophobia in this country?"", they would likely be caught saying, ""God, keep me away from poncy stuck-up kids! Looked like a queer to me!"""
"No. It wasn't.
And claiming that it was, claiming that what she said was in some way 'bigoted', is to spit in the face of all those people (black, white, yellow...) who have experienced real racism and discrimination."
"Glad you took the time to write this. The intolerance and ignorance in this country may be no better than anywhere else, but the way we kowtow to it, and let knee jerk reactions drive critical debate, seems to be something we're especially good at. He called her a bigot, she is a bigot, so what's the problem? A bigot is someone who bases what they think on opinion, not evidence. There is no evidence that immigration is causing unemployment, for example. That people believe this is because they believe whatever the papers (and other media channels) want them to believe - and because fear is a great way to sell newspapers.
I have a gut feeling that the the media's power is waning, as people start to pay more attention to what's happening in social groups online instead of whatever headline the tabloids are raving about. Here's hoping that's more than just a feeling, and that May 6th will bring a well needed kick up the backside to those who think they can tell us what to think."
Milena - if it helps, count one more Brit who's more than happy for you to be here.
"I'm with you on this. Gordo was right! She is a little englander bigot! I would have called her a lot worse including some anglo-saxon words not commonly printed in this paper! The grumpy auld goat!
I loved her question to Gordo: ""Where are all these Eastern Europeans flocking from then?"" In his position I would have been so tempted to answer ""Eastern Europe, duh!""
The whole thing is a fuss about nothing being whipped up by the tories and the tory press. It's a shame. This election was just beginning to look interesting."
Well, Wardinator--how would you like to do the kind of jobs that 'feckless, lazy brits' think are beneath them? My guess is that you are a middle-class person who has had access to good jobs and has never had to face up long term to the kind of boring, backbreaking, routine, soul-destroying badly paid jobs that the immigrants do? Please note: no criticism of the immigrants, just some empathy for lower-class brits.
"""Words fail me. Yesterday I stared alternately at my screen and keyboard in complete and utter paralysis, while inside I was raging. At one point I actually genuinely broke down in tears and great heaving sob""s.
Calm down dear....
Methinks you protest too much."
"Truly pathetic piece. How dare this woman libel Mrs Duffy as bigoted. Guardian - you are sinking to new lows. Tears! Come on. 95% of what Mrs Duffy said was about debt, the debt, the debt and about tuition fees. She then quite rightly questioned immigration. Does anyone know whether immigration costs the exchequer or not? No, of course not, it is not measured in any way at all!
Immigration in the UK is an issue because it drives down wages for working people - just not Guardian columnists - and alters the culture of the country.
And i speak as the child of immigrants. Ms Popova you could always do what they did and naturalise, then you would also have the vote..."
"Still the smearig continues. A concerned long time labour voter voices her concerns and says nothing bigoted and look at the reaction from the 'progressives'. Disgraceful.
Don't vote Labour ever again!"
"Perhaps Mrs Duffy doesn't realise that 10% of the pilots that fought the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain were Polish. So apparently they've been ""flocking"" here for years and causing all sorts of trouble like seeing off the Nazis. How very selfish of them.
Milena, I have no idea what it is like to be an immigrant living here but I do think it is a shame this woman's views upset you so much. However, we all have to put up with the unpleasant prejudices of morons it's just that they discriminate against me in different ways to you. I'm sure even Mrs Duffy experiences prejudice from others. The world isn't perfect and lots of people are mean-spirited - sad but true."
I totally agree with you- I only wish Gordon had said this to her face not in the car. This reveals a press feeding on the subconscious fears of the British public. How many times in my life have I heard friends, work collegues, neigbours say I am not a racist but.... instead of just being honest and saying I am afraid of people who look different, have a different language, culture I find it threatening I don't feel I can cope..If british people dont want Polish people taking their jobs why do british people employ them..The ony sickening thing about this incident is the media politicians and the British people's inability to have a grown up debate about this. I am half Irish and half Indian but actually all I am is English I was born here. But I cant identify with people who for years have rejected me . But I love the English language and the countryside and the eccenticity of English people -most of all I love Engand 's regard for free speech and surely no one should have to apologise for that . The only mistake Gordon made was not saying it to her face.
"I am glad you have written this.
It took a while before I heard the actual dialogue but it didn't strike me as being one that was venemous and xenophobic in comparison to some others I have heard.
I suppose I am used to hearing much more low-brow, thinly-veiled racism and so GD's questions didn't strike me as being overtly offensive - I am not saying that is a bad thing, but I was expecting to hear her railing on and throwing in some dated terms for good measure considering the media hype. That said, I thought GB was very tactless from a PR standpoint.
I am ashamed that I didn't react as you did immediately because I feel very strongly towards integration and looking at immigration constructively. Remember, though, that GD is just one woman and she is entitled to feel as she feels - it isn't her running for an election after all. It is pathetic how the media have splashed this story about because it distracts from the entire process which will thankfully be drawing to a close next week."
I totally agree with you- I only wish Gordon had said this to her face not in the car. This reveals a press feeding on the subconscious fears of the British public. How many times in my life have I heard friends, work collegues, neigbours say I am not a racist but.... instead of just being honest and saying I am afraid of people who look different, have a different language, culture I find it threatening I don't feel I can cope..If british people dont want Polish people taking their jobs why do british people employ them..The ony sickening thing about this incident is the media politicians and the British people's inability to have a grown up debate about this. I am half Irish and half Indian but actually all I am is English I was born here. But I cant identify with people who for years have rejected me . But I love the English language and the countryside and the eccenticity of English people -most of all I love Engand 's regard for free speech and surely no one should have to apologise for that . The only mistake Gordon made was not saying it to her face.
"_AT_kolf
""That'll be the descendants of the massive waves of Angle, Saxon & Jute immigration in the 4th-6th centuries, then?""
No indigenous would mean people who are born here and there are many who hold legitimite veiws on the disaster mass immigration has caused to our communities."
"Well said Milena, It's always easier to blame others for problems rather than look at them objectively. I wonder if they ever think about the numbers of britons that emigrate to other countries.
I think that encouraging movement of peoples improves nations."
"I found this such a depressing article, but for tangental reasons.
You waited for your mates to Tweet you back? Or for your ""60 or so LiveJournal friends"" to get in touch?
But ultimately you were left with ""a profound sense of isolation"".
Yup."
Thanks wez222, that's an absolute classic !
"Well said Milena, It's always easier to blame others for problems rather than look at them objectively. I wonder if they ever think about the numbers of britons that emigrate to other countries.
I think that encouraging movement of peoples improves nations"
Well written Milena. the UK needs immigrants like it needs foreign debt . It's all part of the business model of UK plc.
* I meant to say 'good thing' not bad thing. Oh dear...
"_AT_farga
""they work hard and are generally well behaved"" thats very condescending and possibly a little bigoted, a bit like Cameron's ""I was talking to a black man the other day"" comments like this infer that anyone ""foreign"" is not civilised abit like saying they are quite well behaved, for a foreigner because you know that normally eat horses and stuff... Cameron's comments suggested that all Black people must be immigrants and Duffy's remarks suggest that all Eastern Europeans are bracketed in with illegal immigrants, which is a different think.
I agree with a lot of posters here that sadly there are alot of people who share Mrs Duffy's ""views"" they have this idea of ""foreigners"" flocking into the country when they do not really no what they are talking about and have never probably been in contact with an immigrant in their little closed lives.
Thanks Milena for writing this as it is what I was thinking all yesterday and I would have liked to have seen Brown turn round and say, well her views were bigoted but maybe I should have kept these thoughts to myself and I would have liked to see Mrs Duffy apologise for being ignorant, though this would probably have taken a level of intellect that she does not possess. I am also sorry Milena that you feel this way and please do not think all UK voters are Daily Express reading idiots."
What some people fail to grasp is that the intelligent/educated people in the right wing press and parties will use fear of immigration to gain power and then they will be free to start sending people abroad because they are not white, repealling equality laws, making homosexulaity illegal again so when you think this is simply about immigration you are wrong. Immigrants are simply No.1 on the right wing agenda, who or what is next? So when Mrs Duffy expresses her "views" on immigration, she can be latched on by the right wing as a poor victim of all the minorities who have rights here, and they will be whipped into a frenzy and this will increase racist attacks, increase racia tension and civil disorder, so we have every right to be worried that views like hers are being fed and used to spread fear.
Steady on, we're not all like her.
"_AT_hankwilliams
Citing musicians and their cultural backgrounds is very fertile ground in favour of immigration. I grew up listening to music when reggae and two tone were popular and having a major influence on the music scene - when a British band was often a racial mix that produced a dynamic cross-cultural music as a result.
I'm proud of that. Thats my heritage. A mix that made beauty."
"_AT_Milena Popova

Wait 'til you've read most of the comments on here. There'll be floods."
I completely empathise with where you're coming from, and completely agree about the contributions immigrants make to our society, with very little by way of thanks or appreciation. And while I would never use language like Mrs Duffy did to describe 'flocking' immigrants, I don't think it's helpful to call people like her bigots, because it neglects to address the problem of where views like hers stem from. Unfortunately when people feel that they personally or their community has been given a rough deal in life, it tends to be their first instinct to blame outsiders whom they perceive as a threat to their entitlements. But people need to be educated, badly, on this topic and learn to understand that blaming immigration for their woes is utterly pointless. Politicians, meanwhile, whipped up into their own frenzy by the newspapers, are happy to play that blame game because they know who really should be in the firing line for the state of neglected communities across the UK - themselves.
"PS Milena
What is disenfranchised and powerless about you?
I'm the bloody disenfranchised one! As a Brit long-term resident of another country I am not eligible to vote in British elections. But I know of no E. European country inside or outside the EU that disenfranchises its expats in this way...
As for local elections, if you are from an EU country (or I believe have Brit residence status), you can vote in these..
You are young, highly educated and above all earning in a top tax band - you are probably in almost every way more powerful than this ""bigot"" lady...
So chill out. Have a vodka or a becherovka or a slivovic and stop being a cry baby."
Last time, I checked Gillian Duffy was not standing for election as a major party's candidate for prime minister.
As a fellow immigrant, I understand your anger, but can I make a plea for understanding for this elderly person and others like her? I have spoken with many older Brits who feel alienated from the place where they were born, went to school, grew up, worked, married and raised children in by the speed of social and cultural changes that have overtaken them and their community. Their utterances may seem like bigotry, but they reflect their fear of a society which they no longer fully understand or feel a part of. Rushing to judgement of this women without attempting to understand her does you no credit.
We're not all bigots - you'll be pleased to hear. I totally support immigration as do all right-thinking people. I don't understand why we have to keep having a debate about it just because a very vocal part of the UK is distrustful of foreigners. For some reason we have to be liberal apologists when what we should say is - people come here to live and work and make a contribution to society and there is nothing wrong with that.
"Yet another middle class bigot, doe's the guardian breed them, or just dig them up from their allotments of cranks, oddballs and loons. The simple face it Mrs Duffy has every right to be concerned about immigration and it?s not bigoted to raise these issues.
It's no reason the working classes are voting for the BNP.
Of cource this article and El Gordo's behaviour is another reason to Vote Tory.
which i will be doing."
"I certainly didn't support the ""gutting of our skills base in the 80s and 90s. I'm mistified as to why you would claim that I did.
.

Why would a socialist believe in mass immgration when it completely destroys the bargaining power of the working-class of any country to negotiate for fair wages and working conditions?

Who is ""you and yours""? If you've been looking at my post history, look again. I will always champion British workers over the rich, on every occasion. Which is more than can be said for any LibLabCon voter.

I believe in controlled capitalism, not Communism. The governments role is to create an environment where businesses can flourish but must pay fair wages that people can afford to live on. Allowing mass immigration is contrary to this, British people cannot afford to live on wages that Eastern Europeans might find reasonable.

I am not a socialist. I do not believe in divide and rule. I have not, and will never, say anything negative about any group of immigrants that want to come here and work. Saying that they should not be allowed to come here *IS NOT SAYING NEGATIVE ABOUT THEM*. I wish them all the luck in the world. I would do exactly the same in their situation. Show me a country where I can go and work in a supermarket or factory for £800-£1000 a week and save for a few years and I would jump at the chance to go, as would many British people."
"I sympathise with you Mileana, but you'll find most of the UK will welcome you where ever you come from, we are quite a tolerant country.
However the majority of the British are very concerned about jobs, alot of young people can't get jobs and if they do get jobs that they can barley scrape a living off of them.
Alot of Eastern Europeans came across a few years ago because exchanging the Pound for an Eastern European currency went along way. I know of many Eastern Europeans who worked for 2 years in the UK in really tough jobs whilst living in communal houses. Alot of the money saved was sent back home. I have heard of many retiring early or being able to buy a house back in their own country.
A person in the UK working in those jobs can't buy ahouse here let alone a house. The lady who raised this issue was only voicing this concern."
On the news recently an old man, clearly of West Indian origin, but a long term resident of Wolverhampton, was complaining about the racism of Eastern Europeans to visibly ethnic UK citizens. It seems that he who is without sin should be asked to cast the first stone here.
"Buy a train ticket to Manchester and then hop on the bus to Rochdale and spend a week there talking to the local residents.
Then write another opinion piece.
You are paying more in than taking out, well bully for you. That may well change by the time you reach the age of 66. One serious illness and you'll quickly be overdrawn.
I don't think the treasury keeps a ledger but you could give them a call or read the national accounts. Last time I looked the country was bust and most people were taking out more than they were putting in, just think of that when you visit the opera, the symphony, or dance ,or art gallery or museum.
Most countries have citizenship as a qualification to vote."
"I am the friend who twittered """"I don't believe what Gordon Brown says either. I am therefore also a #bigotedwoman by his standards. Good!"". When I made that tweet I had only seen the 'end' part of the meeting between her and Brown (nothing about immigration) and it appeared that Brown's outburst was over her simply disagreeing with him.
Saying that though, I'm not sure I believe she was 'bigoted' anyway. She wasn't antagonistic in any way in asking a question to which no party has properly answered (I'm ignoring the BNP of course) and is - quite clearly - something a substantial number of Labour voters have concerns about. Unlike others on her estate interviewed subsequently she wasn't that rabid no - it appeared from what I could see (ymmv) - was she being 'anti' european, more querying that it appears uncontrolled. I didn't hear a ""flocking"" comment, though that word is clearly interpreted by the beholder.
Brown then blamed his own timetable for 'lack of time', then a member of staff, and then went on a mea culpa trip. All the quotes that ""he is only human"" have been repeated so often one starts to think there may have been some question about it. That he held an opinion in private directly opposite to that he openly stated unprompted moments before is, however, reprehensible.
I am very strongly against *any* attempt to ostracise *anyone* who has come - legally - to this country. I welcome them with open arms and - personally - would be fairly happy with an 'open door' policy (like water, population finds its own levels in a given area). But it didn't hit me from what I saw of that initial meeting between Ms Duffy and Mr Brown that there was anything more than a simple polite query.
That you were upset by my tweet it I am very sorry."
Thank you for a fantastic piece. We should all be ashamed of the situation that bigotgate has highlighted. I hope Gordon has the guts to stand for what he said.
""" I'm also writing this because you need to know. Yes, you. All of you with the British passports and the huge sense of entitlement. ""
Personally, I find the anti-immigration hysteria distasteful and a few short steps removed from racism - basically, I think a lot of people hide behind the anti-immigration debate (and anti-multiculturalism debate) when really they mean something nastier. This is the success of the BNP and the right wing agenda (witness the Daily Mail every day).
It's not that long ago people were telling us Asians to ""go home"" even when we were born here. Now they might be clever with their words but scratch beneath the surface and you can soon suss out where people are coming from.
So yesterday I thought if Brown really thought she was a bigot he should have challenged her and stuck to his guns - maybe he would have gotten support by showing how ""progressive"" he really is, because I thought there was a hint of bigotry in what she was saying - but by going back to apologise, he just made himself look like a coward, hypocrite and total chancer."
"_AT_AllyF
29 Apr 2010, 1:17PM
absolutely brilliant post.
x"
Hmm, thank goodness you're not Muslim . If you'd been a family of them having paid into the system and been a valuable contributor for years and been watching the BNP party political broadcast 2 days ago i think you'd have felt much much worse.
Why is it bigoted to question the numbers of people from eastern European countries? Unlike many former communist countries, Britain has free speech. It is a bit precious to cry because someone raised an issue that most British people rate as the second most important, after the economy. And the reality is that not all East European immigrants are as diligent and hard working as the Poles. What about the Slovak Roma? Or are we not allowed to discuss that either, in case we make some people cry?
"Actually I think the trigger happy mods on this site should remove posts that clearly demonstrate that the writer has no concept of the debate whatsoever. I mean, none.
This woman has come here of her own free will, chosen to stay and is making a good living in our country. She has declined to make any commitment to it or show any loyalty to it.
She has the bloody cheek to come on here and lecture us about being bigots, when her own countrymen, (who still have her loyalty,) are the genuine article.
She can stick her noxious comment, and for the first time in my life I find myself saying if she doesnt like it why doesnt she bugger off home."
"This is such trash.
This event was a non-event that deserves no mention from either """"""side""""""."
"Milena
Several things:
1. you need to grow a spine
2. I favour immigration, particularly within the ambit of the EU as the exchange is that I can live anywhere in Europe I chose. However I can understand that many people would prefer if immigration is controlled and I can accept that they are entitled to a different view point. Mrs Duffy was expressing that different view point. You have no right to condemn her or call her a bigot for holding that opinion. What she said indicated concern about numbers as opposed to the identity of the immigrants. Presumably you too might object if say 2 million people suddenly turned up tomorrow seeking entry into the UK. If so then it is simply a question of degree as to how much immigration is a good thing and at what point it can become a problem.
3. At no point did she say anything negative about Eastern Europeans. She said that they are flocking. That simply denotes numbers and it is true that over the last few years there has been a lot of immigration from Eastern Europe. However again there is nothing negative said about Eastern Europeans in that. How anyone can suggest that there is anything negative in the word flocking is beyond me - it is simply descriptive i.e. birds flock in large numbers. That does not suggest that one dislikes birds.
4. Mrs Duffy is 65. Stereotypically, older people tend to a little less open to change than younger people. This is part of what it is to be human. So instead of insulting someone by calling them a bigot (a far worse insult than suggesting someone is part of a flock), try to have a little understanding yourself. Otherwise you will simply find people condemning you in turn"
"I have when I lived in the UK, it was my wife. She had to listen to the right-on brigade bang on about Americans (she's Polish-American) all the time as if they were some homogeneous Bush supporting, gun-toting, god-bothering, Iraq war supporting, hive mind.
Guess what, she shrugged it off and put people right when they came out with some sort of ill-informed crap (which the Guardian comments section seems to be full of on anything to do with the US).
Of course she doesn't think everyone who comes out with these comments are bigots, but rather ill-informed. You can blame that on the press, talking heads and politicians. Is Duffy a bigot, no. Is she ill-informed, yes."
"How dare you.
Mrs Duffy was raising a perfectly valid point about immigration levels depressing local wages and putting strain on public services. She is entitled to ask anything she wants, and she did so in a perfectly non-bigoted way.
Believe it or not, immigration policy is a public policy issue like any other, and it is perfectly legitimate for a voter to ask about it.
How can you call that person a bigot? She was absolutely mortified, not angry, when the reporters told her what Brown had called her. I really felt for her. She didn't deserve that."
""" I'm also writing this because you need to know. Yes, you. All of you with the British passports and the huge sense of entitlement. ""
Personally, I find the anti-immigration hysteria distasteful and a few short steps removed from racism - basically, I think a lot of people hide behind the anti-immigration debate (and anti-multiculturalism debate) when really they mean something nastier. This is the success of the BNP and the right wing agenda (witness the Daily Mail every day).
It's not that long ago people were telling us Asians to ""go home"" even when we were born here. Now they might be clever with their words but scratch beneath the surface and you can soon suss out where people are coming from.
So yesterday I thought if Brown really thought she was a bigot he should have challenged her and stuck to his guns - maybe he would have gotten support by showing how ""progressive"" he really is, because I thought there was a hint of bigotry in what she was saying - but by going back to apologise, he just made himself look like a coward, hypocrite and total chancer."
"I think you miss the point. For better or worse, imigration is, after the economy, the biggest issue of concern to voters (as a whole).
The concern about east europeans ""coming over here and taking our jobs"" is very real to people who themselves live in deprived, largly unemployed areas, with lots of east european/other areas immigrants which coupled with a high (higher than proportional?) proportion of immigrants doing low paid work (shops, cafes, hospitality etc etc) it's easy to see why it is of concern.
However, the blame for this has to go to the parties (all of them) who for years have failed to tackle the issue head on for fear of being called, yes, bigoted. If any one of the main parties came up with a coherant immigration policy they'd take the BNP vote at a stroke. The parties continually duck the issue leaving the electorate to take their lead from Daily Mail scare stories about muslims with 5 wives and 18 children living on benefits etc and so on."
"Gordon Brown's comment almost made me want to vote for him next week.
I am an economic migrant, as is my husband. Last Friday I had to field a frankly racist rant from my neighbour, not against me she said, but against the Bangladeshi community who have changed her former home in Bethnal Green out of all recognition (she says). She hasn't lived ther for more than 40 years so I don't think she has a right to complain.
She couldn't accept that an insult to any immigrant is an insult to all immigrants, including her Irish Grandmother. What left an even worse taste in my mouth was how she tried to say that we were different, by implication because we are white west europeans. The whole discussion left me deeply upset.
My dentist is polish, she is fantastic. The best assistant I ever had was also east european. All these people who say immigrants come into this country and get council housing ahead of residents, I'd like to see their evidence in support of this. In my experience they are often highly skilled and hardworking, and paying taxes to support the layabouts who would have us chucked out.
In my opinion Gordon should have stuck to his guns and not apologised. But then he can't do that can he, he's a politician."
Perhaps this blog post is a bit emotional, but that's because it was written by a human. Gordon Brown's comment was also human. If I'd heard that lady saying those things, I would have assumed she was prejudiced too, and I would have tried to talk to her calmly as well, because that's the kind of polite midwestern American I am. As everyone keeps saying, she can say how she feels if on camera if she wants to. Why can't Brown mumble how he fells in his own car? I now like Gordon Brown more than I did before. However, I am seriously annoyed at the BBC for talking about it ALL DAY. It reminds me of sh*t-stirring in the school yard.
"The Aussie mafia ....bugged ..GORDON
THEY DONE IM UP LIKE A KIPPER SKY ARSE LICKS"
Leaving aside the issue of whether Eastern European immigrants are "flocking" here or not, it's grossly unfair to label someone a bigot on the basis of what was a few words said to Gordon Brown when the spotlight was on both of them. I don't know if Gillian Duffy is a bigot or not because I don't know her nor have her views been fully explained. It seems a whole media storm is being created so people like Milena Popeva can then have a right to reply to what was basically an unqualified remark by someone who maybe didn't have the words to express what she really felt.
"Milena
You are right - this woman does hold bigoted views. So does Gordon Brown. Thatos not mean that there are not genuine groundsfor a debate on the effects on immgration - shools, housing etc as well as the cltural and economic benefits.
Having said that the UK still remains one of thebest countres of any in the EU for immigrants."
"Oh dear.
I don't want to gainsay Milena Popova 's horrible experience of being on the receiving end of prejudice in the UK, but this is a terrible article: emotive and censorious.
As others have pointed out above above, especially Ally F, the way forward is not to confront an elderly lady concerned and disorientated by an influx of incomers into her struggling northern town.
Nor to batter her into submission with post-modern twaddle about deconstructing the supposedly dehumanising subtext of a word she used.
And least of all to insist that she be publicly named and shamed as a bigot!
More and more I find myself wondering how and why so many on the progressive left have taken a turn into the very intolerance they claim to oppose.
If any good comes of this sorry incident we'll see a boost for the Lib Dems, who appear to have the only honest and decent line on immigration."
Hmmm,just as well you're not a Muslim . Imagine if you're a family thats paid into the system for the last 40 years and been a valuable contribution for years and had been watching the BNP party political broadcast 2 days ago ,I reckon you'd have felt much worse .
"thank you Downtroddenhero.
I wonder how many higher rate taxpayer Guardianistas employ foreign labour as nannies, cleaners, or indirectly in Starbucks. Have they ever stopped to think what this means for UK labour? How much more would they pay if labour was more constrained?
Well, that pay constraint is what the working class in this country has been feeling, so that the champagne socialists of Hampstead and Highgate can pontificate in comfort.
Has noone seen the figures? More than 90% of jobs created under labour have gone to foreigners.
These are facts, not bigotry."
"thank you Downtroddenhero.
I wonder how many higher rate taxpayer Guardianistas employ foreign labour as nannies, cleaners, or indirectly in Starbucks. Have they ever stopped to think what this means for UK labour? How much more would they pay if labour was more constrained?
Well, that pay constraint is what the working class in this country has been feeling, so that the champagne socialists of Hampstead and Highgate can pontificate in comfort.
Has noone seen the figures? More than 90% of jobs created under labour have gone to foreigners.
These are facts, not bigotry."
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"""This article makes a very important point and makes it well. Why is it OK for Gillian Duffy to be a bigot? ""
For goodness sakes, it was one remark in a lengthy exchange which ranged widely over a number of important issues. If she had been bigotted against East Europeans then that is all she would have talked about. Brown over-reacted and now you are too."
"piffedoff

You have no idea what you are talking about, but carry on with the assumptions.
I'm from a single-parent working-class family. At a time when it wasn't typical, so as well as having no money I also got bullied for having no Dad. My Mother had at least 2 jobs while I was growing up to make ends meet, and that taught me that it was better to have a job rather than no job.
I'm the first person in my family to have gained any qualifications above the age of 16 and I have worked 'menial' jobs (cleaning, minimum wage shop work and similar) since I was 14 in order to pay my way at home, and also through sixth form and university. So now, yes, I am sat in my nice job with decent wages and conditions, but I worked fucking hard to get here, so I don't need someone like you assuming I was born into this and come from some position of luxury
I have a shed load of empathy for the 'lower class Brits' because most of my family are still down there, but they at least try and get off their arses and take any job that is available. My point, which you handily chose to ignore, was that there are some feckless, lazy Brits who would rather have no job than a menial one."
"GORDON WILL BE THE LAST MAN STANDING THE ONLY MAN
VOTE LABOUR"
I'd just like to offer my support. The comments were bigoted and Gordon Brown was right to say so. I have lived and worked in a foreign country (Spain) for over 20 years, and I have always been treated with the utmost respect. If we do not show the same respect to people who come to live and work in the UK, we are not living up to the values our country should represent.
"I support you, understand your feelings and share your outrage.
having been an immigrant in other countries for nearly 20 years I believe there are also huge positives to your experience that no amount of bigotry will undo. Immigration is a condition of modernity; millions share your experience. You are challenging yourself, learning and keeping a critical eye on everything around you. If you have children they will be more creative and adaptable than their monolingual friends in this country; you will be equipping them for a global future. You have not lost your family and friends as immigrants in earlier generations did.
Britain benefits from your presence, but so do you. In the other countries I have lived there is also hostility to outsiders - yes, there is a hierarchy of hostility according to colour, place of origin and educational achievement - but it is there all the same. Many eastern Europeans I have spoken to in other parts of Europe display their own forms of racism. The further out you go from metropolitan centres in most countries I have lived in, the more racism there is.
So do think of all the good, both for Britain and yourself, that is coming out of what you are doing. Britain is he better, and richer, place for your presence."
Christ How can Gillian Duffy be 'bigoted' against Eastern Europeans if she was going to vote for a man called Danczuk? I emphasise 'was'
She was a horrible old bigot. Mine and my friends' Facebook statuses are awash with statements to this effect, and have been since last night. Gillian, thank you for writing this, and please be assured that lots of British citizens find her comments completely unacceptable. You have my sympathy for the way it made you feel.
"I agree with you Milena. As some of the comments here show, racism and intolerance are very much in vogue, with the sentiment (if not the verbatim words) of ""I'm not a racist but...."" the preface to almost every racist comment.
The form of many of the comments above (apparently unaware of the irony) is to rubbish the very idea of any bigotry in Act I and then in Act II gloriously end the post by enumerating the sins of ""them"", in this case the Poles and other Eastern Europeans.
Such sins may be catalogued with reference to (a) a single incident whereby a bad Pole is obviously representative of the entire race. (b) The type of pre-Adam Smith commonsense whereby ""jobs"" are seen as an exhaustable resource like say, oil or coal rather than a dynamic byproduct of economic activity. (c) The letters section of the Daily Mail.
But of course in the next election campaign it will no doubt be another ethnic group taking the jobs, women and causing car crashes in uninsured vehicles."
"Maybe Mili now understands how the British Muslims feel.
Consider how Blair roams free, years after being complicit in the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis on trumped up WMD charges."
"Cor, it's all about you, isn't it? ""Sobs!""
We look forward to the fluffy Bennetton Global Village that will emerge when mass immigration reaches Lodz."
How can Gillian Duffy be 'bigoted' against Eastern Europeans if she was going to vote for a man called Danczuk? I emphasise 'was'
"Fantastic article.
I'm so sorry you have been made to feel this way, and I share your anger that the likes of Gordon Brown have to grovel to the bigots, pander to the right-wing press, and are unable to publicly defend the views they rightly feel in private."
"It is good that Ms Popova reminds people that when they say things like this there are real people who feel hurt. Her points about entitlement are very poignant. The nation state system is indeed equivalent to a class-system and this will probably be regarded as the great injustice of our time by future historians.
Having said that, we have not learnt anything significant about Brown from this incident. The media are using their power to choose the focal points of the debates irresponsibly. The focus should be on policy."
"I support you, understand your feelings and share your outrage.
having been an immigrant in other countries for nearly 20 years I believe there are also huge positives to your experience that no amount of bigotry will undo. Immigration is a condition of modernity; millions share your experience. You are challenging yourself, learning and keeping a critical eye on everything around you. If you have children they will be more creative and adaptable than their monolingual friends in this country; you will be equipping them for a global future. You have not lost your family and friends as immigrants in earlier generations did.
Britain benefits from your presence, but so do you. In the other countries I have lived there is also hostility to outsiders - yes, there is a hierarchy of hostility according to colour, place of origin and educational achievement - but it is there all the same. Many eastern Europeans I have spoken to in other parts of Europe display their own forms of racism. The further out you go from metropolitan centres in most countries I have lived in, the more racism there is.
So do think of all the good, both for Britain and yourself, that is coming out of what you are doing. Britain is he better, and richer, place for your presence."
"""And finally a profound sense of isolation, hurt, and being alone. Tears and huge heaving sobs. I've not cried like that in about five years""
Ha ha ha!!! Funniest thing I have read all year!! could we please have some more from delicate flower!
Point of fact : if you question the immigration policy in the UK, the left will immediately brand you a bigot or racist. No debate is allowed - after all , it will bring tears to eyes of delicate flowers from Eastern Europe and we cannot have all that!"
"Duffy?
A fine Irish name.
We Irish did a lot of flocking?"
Isn't is Mrs. Duffy's human right to be a bigot, if that's what she is? Anyway, a school here, in t' North was recently appealing in the local paper for interpreters to help them with the 43 languages that are spoken there amongst its 950 pupils. I imagine that this situation is repeated all over Eastern Europe, too.
"It's interesting that there have been so many comments removed by the moderator? Interesting in the sense that they too were probably bigoted. I don't believe this woman necessarily meant to be a bigot, but actually if you replace East europeans with Pakistanis it doesn't sound quite the same does it?
Was good to hear a voice from someone other than white, male, ""english"" journalists and politicians. Made me review what she said in a different light.
Though I suspect in the end her language is more to do with a generational thing rather than deliberate bigotry...But then is that ok then? She didn't know better? Or what words to use?"
Brown's only mistake here is that he said it in private and not to her face!
or the illegal boat people as we indigenous Brits like to call them
"I understand her sentiment. But I don't agree.
i) The way that immigration from the accession countries was handled was unforgivable. Germany and France had the good sense to put a 5 year moratorium on workers from those countries coming their countries. Not because they are racist, but because they knew what would happen. Sweden, Ireland and the UK did not place any restrictions. With hindsight it is obvious that the UK would receive the most immigrants from the accession countries as it has a vibrant economy and the language used is, of course, English.
ii) Some of the immigration to the UK (EU and non-EU) has been by those with high skill sets (doctors, bankers etc.). I don't have a problem with free movement for these kinds of workers. There is a global marketplace and while US bankers can come here, UK banker can work in New York, Sydney etc.
The problem is with low-skill immigration. There is no global marketplace in the sense that a low-skill worker in the UK cannot realistically move abroad to find work. They do not have the capital (in all senses) to be able to do that. So what has happened is that immigration over the past few years has had a benefit for businesses by keeping the wages of the lowest paid down.
What is worse is that I think it has encouraged government to think (until recently) that immigrants can go on filling the 'unwanted' jobs in this country. That means that there has been no effort to deal with the structurally unemployed i.e. the 900,000-odd who are claim JSA even when the economy is strong.
I am not sure what the answer is, but here are a few suggestions:
- people who refuse jobs that they could reasonably do should not be able to claim JSA. I know that this already happens, but it is only temporary. The ban on reclaiming should not be in terms of months, it should be years.
- the education system in the UK needs fixing. Too many children in the UK are unfit for work: they cannot read or write properly or add up properly. Children should not really be allowed to leave school without having a good grasp of basic skills. This will enable to find jobs more easily.
- businesses should not be able to dictate immigration policy. Maybe businesses should have pay those at the bottom a bit more to attract local workers rather than being allowed to plug the gap with immigrants. I understand what impact this might have on business but maybe a little bit of competitiveness should be traded for social cohesion.
I appreciate the contribution to the UK that Ms Popova has made with her (higher-rate) taxes, but I am worried that this encourages government to ignore the native disadvantaged."
"Good on Charlie Stross.
But I'm also with the other posters on the emotional blackmail, that's so over the top it's ridiculous. You should try being a foreigner in NL with Geert Wilders and his 'volle is volle' line of rhetoric. As a non-NL citizen I don't get to vote here either, but I don't break down in huge heaving sobs from feeling disenfranchised. It's easy enough; if you want the vote, apply for citizenship, as I'd have to here should I want to vote.
I have listened to the clip live - and listened to it a number of times since - and what Ms Duffy seemed to be struggling to say was that she couldn't understand why someone couldn't even bring up the subject of immigration without being called a bigot - which of course she immediately was by Gordon Brown, thus neatly proving her point.
Societal change wrought by uncontrolled EU immigration may be the subject that may be not be mentioned in this election but at some point soon it'll have to be mentioned, otherwise legitimate public concern over the speed of change will curdle into an undifferentiated hostility towards immigrants, a hostility of the type that the Geert Wilders and Nick Griffins of this world are all too ready to exploit.
I don't know which country you're from Ms. Popova, but I find it hard to believe that the citizens of any nation, even yours, could cope with a sudden, very large influx of immigrants from one particular region with complete equanimity. Would that make all your compatriots bigots?
Surely you can understand Ms Duffy's legitimate concerns, hazily expressed as they were, without taking her words as some kind of personal threat?
I have to say some of the worst and most vocal racism I've heard in Holland has come from newly-arrived Eastern Europeans against 2nd and 3rd generation Moroccan-Dutch and Turkish-Dutch people. There's certainly an assumed skin colour superiority complex going on there. So is that's what's going here? Is it an 'is it because I is white' thing? Is all this crying and rending of garments simply due to you having problems believing that a white UKian could be hostile to a fellow white person?"
"She raised the immigration issue in crude, insensitive language. She said nothing bigoted. I can understand people, especially immigrants, feeling distaste towards the woman for this, I know I did. But to label her bigoted is pretty much an out and out lie. The hysteria over the word ""flocking"" in particular is completely bemusing. It's a word used all the time to describe movement of people, whtether it be to new restaurants or the world cup.
And please don't be so patronising. Your last line made my blood boil ever so slightly."
And it's on that 'education' point that - a rare event - I disagree with AllyF. There needs to be a hell of a lot of education about immigration, Ally, namely because while you clearly know your stuff, there are millions who don't - and for whom all is heard of immigration on a day-to-day basis is the bile poured onto migrants by the Express, the Mail and others. Even here in Guardian-land it's becoming unfashionable to stick up for immigrants; your views on them may indeed be reasonable, but how many tirades of abuse have you seen, even on these pages, directed at migrant communities?
"Mrs Duffy and other simular in their views on this blog:
1. If you have any problem with Europeans ""flocking"" to this rainy country - withdraw from Europe, break the trities and make yourself splendidly isolated!
2. Those of you flocking to my country for binge drinking and urinating - you are not welcome and don't be suprised by my reaction to you.
3. Support Nick Griffin and his white society, take the jobs in corner shops selling goods 6pm before going out!
4. Can you name three European countries and their capitals?
5. How many foreign languages do you speak?"
"Melina Popova
""And finally a profound sense of isolation, hurt, and being alone. Tears and huge heaving sobs. I've not cried like that in about five years.""
maybe you might want to Popback then?
there is no link between what duffy said and the PM calling her a bigot.
your statements only show you to be a bigot in fact.
i await more information in order to change my opinion however."
"Some do. Many do not. Some are at best freeloaders and, at worst, involved in organised crime.
Mrs Duffy expressed a legitimate concern that her own town was becoming flooded with people from different countries, with different cultures and possibly different values. For a pensioner to see her town transformed in that way can be frightening. It also begs the question as to how many of the eastern Europeans are, like you, gainfully employed and contributing to society and how many are living by other means."
"You are angry at a 66 year-old woman who doesn't understand why we need immigration when we have high unemployment? Try and walk in her shoes for a while. Her family and friends find it hard to find jobs and housing. A lot of jobs have been taken by immigrants. Wages for low-skilled jobs have fallen rather than risen. It is hard to get council housing because much of it is now owned privately and rented by immigrants. Private rents have gone up.
There is little doubt that life would be better for the working classes in this country if there had been much less immigration. That doesn't mean they dislike immigrants or are racist. It just means that they recognise that they would be better off without them.
Middle class people tend to like immigration because it provides them with cheaper services. Often migrants are harder working as they recognise how lucky they are to be in this country with the opportunities it offers. This means that the middle classes get better quality services too. Most of the middle class does not have to compete with immigrant labour.
Politicians like immigration because businessmen provide their campaign funding and their opportunities for lucrative employment later on. Businesses like the cheaper labour and extra customers that immigration provides.
Mrs Duffy was not being bigoted. She was displaying exactly the same self-interest as everyone else. She knows what is good for her, her friends and family. She deserves honest answers. She does not deserve to be patronised and ridiculed."
"The comments I've received to this article here and elsewhere fall roughly into the following categories:
1. A lot of people came forward and said ""I'm sorry I didn't stand up to this earlier, I took it as given that she was a bigot and didn't think it needed saying.""
2. A slightly smaller number of people have re-iterated concerns about immigration - some coherently, others less so.
3. A small number of people tell me they're fine with me personally and with others like me who pay tax, but all those other immigrants should go home.
4. A small number of people have told me that I'm overreacting and that people say much worse things on a daily basis about immigrants.
5. And a tiny minority have told me to eff of home.
To those who didn't think it needed saying: If you don't speak up and tell your leaders that you don't buy what you're being fed by the tabloids, your leaders will only listen to the tabloids. It doesn't matter if you're a majority - if you're a silent majority it's as if you don't exist. Speak out, don't let things like this go unchallenged.
To those who say Gillian Duffy's comments were harmless and people say much worse things: You are right, they do. But most people who say worse things don't get grovelling apologies from the Prime Minister, don't get to dominate the news cycle for over 24 hours, and don't get £50,000 from the Sun.
To those who are fine with me personally: Thanks. I am flattered. No, not really. I've been on the receiving end of this all my life. Huge loud heated discussion about all those foreigners taking our jobs and our women, then someone turns around, sees me, falls silent and mutters how *of course* they didn't mean me. It comes back to this: Every human being deserves to be treated with some basic dignity and respect, regardless of whether they work hard, pay tax, speak perfect English, or contribute in some other way to society. It's easy to forget that - and I have at times been guilty of forgetting that myself. But maybe by standing up and writing this, I can help us all remember.
To the people who would like me to eff off home: Britain is my home, for better or for worse. I have lived here longer than in any other country; my partner is British; most of my friends are either British or live here; when I have children, I want to raise them here. It's as simple as that.
And finally, as it's the most complex issue, to those who have re-iterated concerns about immigration: Of course there are legitimate concerns in this area. However, the word immigration is often used to cover a multitude of sins - from unemployment, to housing, education, health care, social services. These are all complex issues, and I believe we should look at them individually and give them the amount of attention they deserve. Using immigration as a short-cut is lazy and cheap political point-scoring. I've said it once and I'll say it again: The sad thing is that the political culture of this country makes it difficult to have a real debate on those issues because presenting a balanced view on the subject would be political suicide."
"This is a well written and very much needed article. I was embarrassed by a lot of the reaction to this story yesterday. This is not about her having issues with immigration, this is about her talking about whole swathes of other people in a contemptuous and dehumanising manner, simply for belonging to a different ethnic/national group to her. Now this may have been a product of simple inarticulacy, but that doesn't change the affect that it has on people like Milena, and it still needs to be challenged. I personally believe that this country is entitled to set limits on immigration if it is in its best interest and prioritise people already living here for employment etc. I also think that it is possible to recognise that large scale immigration has resulted in losses as well as gains both culturally and practically, especially in working class areas with a large incoming population, as Ally F describes, without attacking people who have done nothing wrong, other than try to live and work in another country. Attack the issue, attack the people in power, not those who are powerless.
Oh and BTW, people who have never been in her situation don' t get to tell Milena how to feel about it."
"I'm no fan of Gordon Brown but the media's determination to assassinate his character has somewhat got in the way of the real issue here: that such casual racisim as articulated by Mrs Duffy has become acceptable in our so-called tolerant society. Yesterday's pitiful scenes of TV crews 'flocking' round Mrs Duffy was more reminiscent of a playground spatt involving a couple of eight-year-old girls (not meaning to be sexist here - I have an eight-year-old daughter). My first reaction was to thank the lord I hadn't pursued a career in journalism. At least I have some diginity left.
And shame on you all those who told the blogger to 'get a grip'. Have we learned nothing from the events of the 20th centruy?"
"It's quite possible to be concerned about immigration without being bigotted.
There are many good things to be said about immigration, but it would be silly to think there are no negative consequences.
The sudden influx of of such a large number of eastern europeans in such a short period inevitably created some problems as well as providing active people for the economy.
If Milena doesn't like it she knows where the door is."
"You are angry at a 66 year-old woman who doesn't understand why we need immigration when we have high unemployment? Try and walk in her shoes for a while. Her family and friends find it hard to find jobs and housing. A lot of jobs have been taken by immigrants. Wages for low-skilled jobs have fallen rather than risen. It is hard to get council housing because much of it is now owned privately and rented by immigrants. Private rents have gone up.
There is little doubt that life would be better for the working classes in this country if there had been much less immigration. That doesn't mean they dislike immigrants or are racist. It just means that they recognise that they would be better off without them.
Middle class people tend to like immigration because it provides them with cheaper services. Often migrants are harder working as they recognise how lucky they are to be in this country with the opportunities it offers. This means that the middle classes get better quality services too. Most of the middle class does not have to compete with immigrant labour.
Politicians like immigration because businessmen provide their campaign funding and their opportunities for lucrative employment later on. Businesses like the cheaper labour and extra customers that immigration provides.
Mrs Duffy was not being bigoted. She was displaying exactly the same self-interest as everyone else. She knows what is good for her, her friends and family. She deserves honest answers. She does not deserve to be patronised and ridiculed."
"The comments I've received to this article here and elsewhere fall roughly into the following categories:
1. A lot of people came forward and said ""I'm sorry I didn't stand up to this earlier, I took it as given that she was a bigot and didn't think it needed saying.""
2. A slightly smaller number of people have re-iterated concerns about immigration - some coherently, others less so.
3. A small number of people tell me they're fine with me personally and with others like me who pay tax, but all those other immigrants should go home.
4. A small number of people have told me that I'm overreacting and that people say much worse things on a daily basis about immigrants.
5. And a tiny minority have told me to eff of home.
To those who didn't think it needed saying: If you don't speak up and tell your leaders that you don't buy what you're being fed by the tabloids, your leaders will only listen to the tabloids. It doesn't matter if you're a majority - if you're a silent majority it's as if you don't exist. Speak out, don't let things like this go unchallenged.
To those who say Gillian Duffy's comments were harmless and people say much worse things: You are right, they do. But most people who say worse things don't get grovelling apologies from the Prime Minister, don't get to dominate the news cycle for over 24 hours, and don't get £50,000 from the Sun.
To those who are fine with me personally: Thanks. I am flattered. No, not really. I've been on the receiving end of this all my life. Huge loud heated discussion about all those foreigners taking our jobs and our women, then someone turns around, sees me, falls silent and mutters how *of course* they didn't mean me. It comes back to this: Every human being deserves to be treated with some basic dignity and respect, regardless of whether they work hard, pay tax, speak perfect English, or contribute in some other way to society. It's easy to forget that - and I have at times been guilty of forgetting that myself. But maybe by standing up and writing this, I can help us all remember.
To the people who would like me to eff off home: Britain is my home, for better or for worse. I have lived here longer than in any other country; my partner is British; most of my friends are either British or live here; when I have children, I want to raise them here. It's as simple as that.
And finally, as it's the most complex issue, to those who have re-iterated concerns about immigration: Of course there are legitimate concerns in this area. However, the word immigration is often used to cover a multitude of sins - from unemployment, to housing, education, health care, social services. These are all complex issues, and I believe we should look at them individually and give them the amount of attention they deserve. Using immigration as a short-cut is lazy and cheap political point-scoring. I've said it once and I'll say it again: The sad thing is that the political culture of this country makes it difficult to have a real debate on those issues because presenting a balanced view on the subject would be political suicide."
I'm sure if half a million Brits went over to Poland to work and there were millions of unemployed Poles there some tensions would arise there also?
"And it seems you'll continue struggling to get any comments.
Well done and spot on. Call a bigot a bigot.
this is indeed a sad indictment of our society, PC is now in total contrast to what it was. The downward spiral has begun."
"Is Gillian Duffy a bigot?
According to Dictionary.com a Bigot is:
""a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.""
Now Mrs Duffy didn't express anything like this opinion. Using rather poor grammar she said:
""All these Eastern European immigrants, where are they flocking from?"". I doubt she meant to use the word flocking as a replacement for fucking. Her question is rhetorical. Eastern European immigrants are from Eastern Europe. Simples as Alexandr would say.
I would hazard a guess that she isn't very bright or worldly. She chose to express her concerns about her changing surroundings in a rather clumsy way.
Thirty years ago, some one would have no doubt said the same thing but it would have been 'Paki' instead of Eastern European. Sixty years ago, it would have been 'black' instead of Eastern European and 80 years ago it would have been Jewish.
The issue here is that no politician is willing to debate the topic.
In reality therefore Brown is the Bigot, not Mrs Duffy as in accordance with the definition he is a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
It is clear that immigration is a topic that concerns a large part of the electorate for many reasons. This concern has lead to the increase in support and profile for the BNP. The Labour party, with the connivance of the Tories and Lib Dems have imposed a massive change on the fabric of society and the way this country is run (The EU for example) without once asking the electorate whether they mind. When they do express an opinion they are condoned as racists or bigots."
"You are angry at a 66 year-old woman who doesn't understand why we need immigration when we have high unemployment? Try and walk in her shoes for a while. Her family and friends find it hard to find jobs and housing. A lot of jobs have been taken by immigrants. Wages for low-skilled jobs have fallen rather than risen. It is hard to get council housing because much of it is now owned privately and rented by immigrants. Private rents have gone up.
There is little doubt that life would be better for the working classes in this country if there had been much less immigration. That doesn't mean they dislike immigrants or are racist. It just means that they recognise that they would be better off without them.
Middle class people tend to like immigration because it provides them with cheaper services. Often migrants are harder working as they recognise how lucky they are to be in this country with the opportunities it offers. This means that the middle classes get better quality services too. Most of the middle class does not have to compete with immigrant labour.
Politicians like immigration because businessmen provide their campaign funding and their opportunities for lucrative employment later on. Businesses like the cheaper labour and extra customers that immigration provides.
Mrs Duffy was not being bigoted. She was displaying exactly the same self-interest as everyone else. She knows what is good for her, her friends and family. She deserves honest answers. She does not deserve to be patronised and ridiculed."
"Mrs Duffy and other simular in their views on this blog:
1. If you have any problem with Europeans ""flocking"" to this rainy country - withdraw from Europe, break the trities and make yourself splendidly isolated!
2. Those of you flocking to my country for binge drinking and urinating - you are not welcome and don't be suprised by my reaction to you.
3. Support Nick Griffin and his white society, take the jobs in corner shops selling goods 6pm before going out!
4. Can you name three European countries and their capitals?
5. How many foreign languages do you speak?"
"This is a well written and very much needed article. I was embarrassed by a lot of the reaction to this story yesterday. This is not about her having issues with immigration, this is about her talking about whole swathes of other people in a contemptuous and dehumanising manner, simply for belonging to a different ethnic/national group to her. Now this may have been a product of simple inarticulacy, but that doesn't change the affect that it has on people like Milena, and it still needs to be challenged. I personally believe that this country is entitled to set limits on immigration if it is in its best interest and prioritise people already living here for employment etc. I also think that it is possible to recognise that large scale immigration has resulted in losses as well as gains both culturally and practically, especially in working class areas with a large incoming population, as Ally F describes, without attacking people who have done nothing wrong, other than try to live and work in another country. Attack the issue, attack the people in power, not those who are powerless.
Oh and BTW, people who have never been in her situation don' t get to tell Milena how to feel about it."
as for "To be in the middle of a general election where you have no voice?" What? You can vote in local and European elections in the UK and in Polish elections. Plenty of nazi-supporting homophobes there for you to choose!
Great article. We should be ashamed as a country how we have reacted to this. It's time to take a stand against the bigots.
"Two points ...
Brown once said British jobs for British workers.... Then when an old lady queries the immigration figures.. suddenly he calls her a bigot... Do the words pot.. kettle .. and black ring any bells.
I thought that free speech was one of the things we Brits once prided ourselves on."
"I think you will find that the racism in Eastern Europe is deeper and nastier than here.
This was a woman expressing concern about how local people can get jobs with what she thinks as high migration. I think she is wrong, ignorant and misled. The popular press controlled by an Australian turned American, the Northcliffe family and a pornographer are largely to blame for her ignorance.
Eastern Europe has huge problems of racism and ethnic conflict from Roma to Albanians, to Germans, Russians, non Baltics, the wrong kind of Slav and especially any one of colour. Of course it is not nice if some people are making you feel unwelcome. It is not nice anywhere, but please try and keep a sense of proportion."
"Migration is a two way street. If those Brits that want to ban people coming in, they should want to ban people leaving too.
I can understand people worrying about the change around them which seems to happen ever faster but they shouldn't blame other people who are also being exposed to those same forces, namely the immigrants. The current migration is beyond one government to control, if controling it is desirable anyway. It is the international economic forces that are driving the change and the migration, not ordianry people. Despite all the bitching about immigrantion, I don't hear people wanting to ditch the economic system that is driving it. Or am I wrong?"
"She raised the immigration issue in crude, insensitive language. But she made no bigoted assertions. I can understand people, especially immigrants, feeling distaste towards the woman for this, I know I did. But to label her bigoted is pretty much an out and out lie. The hysteria over the word ""flocking"" in particular is completely bemusing. It's a word used all the time to describe movement of people, whether it be to new restaurants or the world cup.
And please don't be so patronising. Your last line made my blood boil ever so slightly."
"I think you will find that the racism in Eastern Europe is deeper and nastier than here.
This was a woman expressing concern about how local people can get jobs with what she thinks as high migration. I think she is wrong, ignorant and misled. The popular press controlled by an Australian turned American, the Northcliffe family and a pornographer are largely to blame for her ignorance.
Eastern Europe has huge problems of racism and ethnic conflict from Roma to Albanians, to Germans, Russians, non Baltics, the wrong kind of Slav and especially any one of colour. Of course it is not nice if some people are making you feel unwelcome. It is not nice anywhere, but please try and keep a sense of proportion."
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Thank you Gordon!
"Migration is a two way street. If those Brits that want to ban people coming in, they should want to ban people leaving too.
I can understand people worrying about the change around them which seems to happen ever faster but they shouldn't blame other people who are also being exposed to those same forces, namely the immigrants. The current migration is beyond one government to control, if controling it is desirable anyway. It is the international economic forces that are driving the change and the migration, not ordianry people. Despite all the bitching about immigrantion, I don't hear people wanting to ditch the economic system that is driving it. Or am I wrong?"
"The comments I've received to this article here and elsewhere fall roughly into the following categories:
1. A lot of people came forward and said ""I'm sorry I didn't stand up to this earlier, I took it as given that she was a bigot and didn't think it needed saying.""
2. A slightly smaller number of people have re-iterated concerns about immigration - some coherently, others less so.
3. A small number of people tell me they're fine with me personally and with others like me who pay tax, but all those other immigrants should go home.
4. A small number of people have told me that I'm overreacting and that people say much worse things on a daily basis about immigrants.
5. And a tiny minority have told me to eff of home.
To those who didn't think it needed saying: If you don't speak up and tell your leaders that you don't buy what you're being fed by the tabloids, your leaders will only listen to the tabloids. It doesn't matter if you're a majority - if you're a silent majority it's as if you don't exist. Speak out, don't let things like this go unchallenged.
To those who say Gillian Duffy's comments were harmless and people say much worse things: You are right, they do. But most people who say worse things don't get grovelling apologies from the Prime Minister, don't get to dominate the news cycle for over 24 hours, and don't get £50,000 from the Sun.
To those who are fine with me personally: Thanks. I am flattered. No, not really. I've been on the receiving end of this all my life. Huge loud heated discussion about all those foreigners taking our jobs and our women, then someone turns around, sees me, falls silent and mutters how *of course* they didn't mean me. It comes back to this: Every human being deserves to be treated with some basic dignity and respect, regardless of whether they work hard, pay tax, speak perfect English, or contribute in some other way to society. It's easy to forget that - and I have at times been guilty of forgetting that myself. But maybe by standing up and writing this, I can help us all remember.
To the people who would like me to eff off home: Britain is my home, for better or for worse. I have lived here longer than in any other country; my partner is British; most of my friends are either British or live here; when I have children, I want to raise them here. It's as simple as that.
And finally, as it's the most complex issue, to those who have re-iterated concerns about immigration: Of course there are legitimate concerns in this area. However, the word immigration is often used to cover a multitude of sins - from unemployment, to housing, education, health care, social services. These are all complex issues, and I believe we should look at them individually and give them the amount of attention they deserve. Using immigration as a short-cut is lazy and cheap political point-scoring. I've said it once and I'll say it again: The sad thing is that the political culture of this country makes it difficult to have a real debate on those issues because presenting a balanced view on the subject would be political suicide."
I would also rather have no job than work for £5.90 an hour. I don't think people of any country in the world would think differently, given the cost of living here. Pay a fair wage and people will be more than happy to do any job, no matter how "menial".
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"Two points ...
Brown once said British jobs for British workers.... Then when an old lady queries the immigration figures.. he calls her a bigot... Do the words pot.. kettle .. and black ring any bells.
I thought that free speech was one of the things we Brits once prided ourselves on."
"Well, i pretty much cheered when i heard that Brown had made a media 'slip-up' by calling that woman a bigot - not because i'm a disenfranchised ex-Labour voter (which i am) but because i thought for once he had shown a bit of socialist backbone. Of course immigration has contributed an obscene amount to our economy (which Brown obviously realises more than most), and it's a pity those remarks weren't directed to the lady's face.
However Milena, it seems a little reactionary to blame UK citizens for the awkward and in many ways shameful reactions of the media and your Twitter network. I love Twitter more than most, but flippant gags normally trump profound moral insight when you're only playing with 140 characters. As a Brit, we are a very complacent and entitled lot - but we mostly fall short of supporting ill-informed and, yes, bigotted opinions...
I also cannot begin to comprehend approaching any of my Polish and Ukranian friends/acquaintances about their immigrant outlook - are you kidding?! That's a few backward steps towards 'tolerating' people who've pledged to spend their life here, as opposed to 'accepting' that they're part of our British community.
I am sorry that the whole episode caused you (understandable) distress, but the hatemongering section of our society are quite easy to distinguish. They normally work at the Daily Mail..."
"I am a Northern white working class person.
Words fail me. Yesterday I stared alternately at my screen and keyboard in complete and utter paralysis, while inside I was raging. At one point I actually genuinely broke down in tears and great heaving sobs.
I had been watching ""bigotgate"" unfold ? mostly on Twitter, a bit on LiveJournal, a bit in mainstream media ? since around lunchtime. Oh, I thought initially, finally someone's made a gaffe in this election campaign ? just what the media have been wanting. Then I actually went and watched the clip ? first the short version on the Channel 4 News website which only has the last 30 seconds of the PM's conversation with Gillian Duffy and his comments in the car; then I watched the full thing, which included Brown's comments on the ""bigoted woman"".
Then I watched the comments on Twitter. Some were mocking Gillian Duffy for being white and working class.
I started feeling ever so slightly nauseous. A part of me knew from the start that what Brown had said was unacceptable, it was directed against me and people like me, and it just wasn't right. But reading my Twitter feed I felt ashamed of being white and working class.
Maybe I was being oversensitive.
I did eventually pluck up the courage to tweet a shy, self-deprecating ""White working class person here. Just sayin'.""
At that point I completely lost it. I'm not sure I can explain how this whole sordid affair makes me feel, but let me try.
Anger. Anger at Gordon Brown, anger at all the people who weren't willing to stand up to him.
A desperate need to justify myself. I pay higher-rate income tax. I contribute to the UK economy, I contribute to UK society. I probably pay into the tax system more than I get back out of it.
More anger. This time at being disempowered and disenfranchised; at being a cheap target for political point scoring because Brown and the others in the power have ignored me for 13 years .
That's how Gordon Brown made me feel. What did I ever do to him ?"
"Is Gillian Duffy a bigot?
According to Dictionary.com a Bigot is:
""a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.""
Now Mrs Duffy didn't express anything like this opinion. Using rather poor grammar she said:
""All these Eastern European immigrants, where are they flocking from?"". I doubt she meant to use the word flocking as a replacement for fucking. Her question is rhetorical. Eastern European immigrants are from Eastern Europe. Simples as Alexandr would say.
I would hazard a guess that she isn't very bright or worldly. She chose to express her concerns about her changing surroundings in a rather clumsy way.
Thirty years ago, some one would have no doubt said the same thing but it would have been 'Paki' instead of Eastern European. Sixty years ago, it would have been 'black' instead of Eastern European and 80 years ago it would have been Jewish.
The issue here is that no politician is willing to debate the topic.
In reality therefore Brown is the Bigot, not Mrs Duffy as in accordance with the definition he is a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
It is clear that immigration is a topic that concerns a large part of the electorate for many reasons. This concern has lead to the increase in support and profile for the BNP. The Labour party, with the connivance of the Tories and Lib Dems have imposed a massive change on the fabric of society and the way this country is run (The EU for example) without once asking the electorate whether they mind. When they do express an opinion they are condoned as racists or bigots."
"If you were here on a work permit you would not hear comments like Mrs Duffy's taken seriously.
You can blame Labour and the Conservative's for any hostile reception, whether it's justified or not is besides the point. Unfortunately I can only see the unfavourable reaction of the many member of the British public getting worse in the future.
There is a reason why almost every country in world does not have open borders. This is what happens when you force uncontrolled immigration on a unwanting public without their consent. Member countries of the misguided EU are obviously the exceptions."
"It shows the truth about Britain , the crazy topsy turvy world we live in. Vast swathes of the media are dedicated to abusing immigrants on a daily basis, large numbers of people make bigoted remarks on a daily basis. Immigrants are demonised as fanatics, criminals, drunks or lazy depending on where they come from, they are blamed for rising crime when crime is falling, and yet these proud warriors of free speech would have us believe that there is a vast liberal conspiracy to silence debate on immigration, it beggars belief
Brown should have challlenged the woman to her face, but if he had, he would have been castigated for that too.The way she framed her question,the tone and the words she used conveyed bigotry. Brown was polite to her face, but had a little moan in private, something most of do nearly every day when dealing with difficult people at work. For this the hysterical far right press, who spend the rest of the time attacking immigrants in words that would not have been out of place in the 1930s, have pillioried them.
This article shows the flipside of this issue and the real truth, that far from immigration never being discussed and immigrants being beyond criticism, they are battered with far right hatred every day, much of it on the front of our popular press.
I'm getting more and more angry about the Orwellian doublethink being paraded today,
you're all hypocrites."
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"Personally I think that having the East Europeans in this country is great on several levels. Firstly, they have similar backgrounds to us, they hold similar beliefs and hold essentially converging views about how life should be lived. ie they easily fit into the British way of life. . They also do not want to kill anyone and the woman are real women and frankly put most British women to shame. Like the men too frankly - good blokes in a faintly British was that is easy to relate too. So generally - regarding Eastern Europeans being here its more than fine with me.
There are other groups that most certainly I cannot say fit into the above description. Cant say who they are because as we all know we are liable to arrest for such saying things..
Anyway - Mrs Duffy - right topic - just wrong example."
"My husband is a builder who works mostly building large municipal structures. These jobs are usually on a contract basis for around a year or two. My husband is a settled Irish immigrant, he has lived here for 20 years.
When the ascension state immigration happened every time he started a new job the rates went lower and lower and lower. The eastern Europeans he worked with mainly intended to work in the UK for a couple of years then return home with enough savings to give themselves a comfortable life in their home country. As it was a temporary situation they were happy to live in conditions that would not be acceptable or workable in the long term, for instance living in shared rooms in digs.
We, meanwhile were left with a plummeting income which had once been ample to support a family on, we could no longer afford a decent standard of living, we struggled to pay our rent, had to get rid of our car and could no longer take holidays. And yes, I did feel disempowered and disenfranchised.
And if you're treated as badly as you say you are by this society in what is basically a long whinge about how vile the British are then you know where the door is, use it. And don't let it hit you on the way out."
"vercol

Isn't this just a gross generalisatiion? East Europe, west Europe, how about the world?"
I couldn't agree with you more and I'm honestly so glad you decided to write about how you felt by this. I don't feel an apology should have been forced and I think Mr Brown showed admirable restraint by waiting until after to comment on the exchange, but that his opinion was spot on.
"The ""Eastern Europeans"" Mrs Duffy is referring to clearly aren't middle-class, metropolitan professionals like the author, but are young people who come here to do unskilled labour like fruit-picking etc.
They can work for the kind of wages that while better than Polish wages (or why come here?), are totally inadequate for a British worker trying to bring up a family and run a home.
Working class people don't hate Eastern Europeans, they hate crap governments that deliberately wreck their chances of finding work in their home country, and who then turn around and accuse them of racism for having the nerve to complain about it.
And what's with all the pathetic keyboard warriors slagging off a an old lady anyway?"
"Well Said!
My wife is originally from Russia, and therefore have a real insight into the immigration process in the UK, and how bloody hard it is, seeing the years of struggle she had becoming legal here (even though she came across as a 14 yr old by her mum who married an English guy)."
"There are a lot of people on here who, like me, have reacted empathetically to your distress after yesterday and *whilst pointing out that we are indeed in favour of immigration and are not racists* agree that Duffy is not necessarily a great ambassador for tolerant British society, however she is not really any sort of antagonist.
Anybody is allowed to ask questions, even if you are just being devil's advocate. Why should one person's questions indicate that an entire country doesn't care for our valued immigrant population?"
The point is that immigrants with families are given favourable treatment by local authorities in preference to British people. It is wrong and causes resentment. If people from Eastern Europe object to local indignation at the injustice they should return home.
"So we are not allowed to discuss the second most important issue for Britons because it makes someone cry. Get real.
The reality is that some east Europeans are hard working and industrious, but others, for example Slovak Roma, have a different attitude to work and benefits.
Thank God we have free speech in Britain, unlike most of the former east European countries. Or can we not say that either?"
Yes I do have a huge sense of entitlement because I was actually born here. I actually feel a connection with those that were also born here. They are in some small way part of my extended "family", part of my community. I may disagree with them but I still care for them. I don't care for everyone that washes up here, particularly those that have abandoned their own compatriots and washed up here to make a fast buck whilst millions of my compatriots are out of work, unable to support their families. So no, I don't care if you pay British tax. I don't believe that gives you any kind of entitlement except of the most transient kind. If you weren't paying that tax, one of my compatriots would be.
And yet you wont take citizenship!
I wonder does Gillian Duffy realise her last name is Irish and that people were saying the same thing about Irish immigrants 25 years ago...plus ca change
"_AT_whatithink;
""This article makes a very important point and makes it well. Why is it OK for Gillian Duffy to be a bigot""
I've yet to here anyone explain how she is a bigot.
It's particularly interesting reading CiF threads since this incident. Just as with Brown's own comments, some of the postings on here reveal the gaping chasm between the Marie Antoinettes of middle class liberalism, and the proles who have loyally provided the votes to power their 'project'.
Or, if you like, the chasm between those who've gained cheap nannies and enjoyed culture tourism on their own doorstep as interesting new eateries spring up, and those who've seen their earning power demolished and their communities turned upside down.
When labour boast of their minimum wage, it needs to be pointed out that for many people this is a benchmark which labour policy has driven their income down to, versus dragged it up to.
Against which backdrop, the ranks of liberal ninnies in their ivory towers, deploying - even at this stage in the game - their latte fascist prattle that demonises any prole wayward enough to complain about this situation, are both laughable and appalling.
This gilded metropolitan elite have destroyed the labour party and grievously damaged the social fabric of this country. If the BBC was ever to become a commercial channel they would disappear from view completely, but as it stands, the control this small band exert over the media establishment ensures our whole political discourse is shaped in line with the interests of a monied bohemian elite.
So the working class will become increasingly more disenfranchised, and inequality will widen.
And the prattling ninnies will risibly continue to call the tories 'the nasty party'.
Whatever you think you are, 'whatithink', you are not of the left - at least if that has any residual meaning connected with concern for the working class. You are not of the people. You, in ninnyspeak, are their class enemy."
"The article is nothing but money for old rope.
It has done nothing but give the usual anti-working class professionals the usual group love in whilst wallowing in their own generalizations about British workers being lazy.
The sad fact of the matter is that the issue of class politics is now slowly sadly and sickly becoming immeshed with the politics of race and immigration, so either the BNP and griffin are part of some sort of brilliant charismatic highly intelligent politcal entity OR ,as is more likely there popularity is being fuelled by the likes of so called left wing middle class people who seem to have some inbuilt hated towards anyone poorer than them, and even better educated than them.
Disgusting. The author of this piece is the one would should feel shame.
Questions for the author of the article: Have you ever considered that you only got the job because you are white? Oh and middle class..so why is that you are moaning?"
And yet you wont take citizenship!
"This article echoes my thoughts exactly.
All the Brown-bashing in the media suggests that actually treating Eastern Europeans like non-citizens is fine. Gordon Brown might have made a political blinder by calling her a bigot, but it is only because he did so in private. If he had said it to her face and publicly I would have nothing but respect for him. Politicians are not there to cater to the views of every single ignorant individual and should be allowed to expose hateful people like Mrs. Duffy.
Normal eurosceptic service may now resume."
Mrs Duffy is just the latest in a line of xenophobes stretching way back for centuries. First it was the Irish, who came and built our canals, then it was the Asians who came and opened our convenient corner shops, then it was the Blacks, now it is members of the European Union "flocking" from Eastern Europe. She is ignorant of the two-way passage of labour in the EU and Brown tried to explain it to her. He was patient and polite. No wonder he expressed his exasperation when he was out of earshot - except that he wasn't, which was bad luck. Of course he should be sympathetic to the worries of people for their jobs; I think he is. Xenophobia always increases in times of recession but it's still xenophobia. Don't other people find bigots irritating?
"So we are not allowed to discuss the second most important issue for Britons because it makes someone cry. Get real.
The reality is that some east Europeans are hard working and industrious, but others, for example Slovak Roma, have a different attitude to work and benefits.
Thank God we have free speech in Britain, unlike most of the former east European countries. Or can we not say that either?"
And yet you wont take citizenship!
"This article echoes my thoughts exactly.
All the Brown-bashing in the media suggests that actually treating Eastern Europeans like non-citizens is fine. Gordon Brown might have made a political blinder by calling her a bigot, but it is only because he did so in private. If he had said it to her face and publicly I would have nothing but respect for him. Politicians are not there to cater to the views of every single ignorant individual and should be allowed to expose hateful people like Mrs. Duffy.
Normal eurosceptic service may now resume."
"_AT_AllyF:
I don't understand your situation, could you please elaborate? Are these travellers or are they living in houses? Are these people EU residents? Is this a similar situation to that about which Mrs Duffy was concerned?
At the risk of blundering into a sensitive issue, I'm not sure that these issues are 100% connected. Being angry about a large group of possibly illegal foreign settlers does not necesarily justify comments about east europeans legally 'flocking' into the country, unless this is specifically the issue being referred to. There is the danger of being, to be frank, racist. To be clear, I am not accusing anyone of racist opinions, I am genuinely interesting in understanding the situation.
Melina is telling us how the comments made by Mrs Duffy upset her. She will not be the only one. Therefore Mr Brown is not the only one with some apologising to do."
"I'm an immigrant, albeit with a historical british connection.
I believe that immigration is beneficial, and there are many good reasons for it however:
1) These reasons are not explained to the white working class of this country.
2) The government has done little to expand opportunity for this group in the last 13 years.
3) The majority of the white working class are not racist or bigoted, but are bewildered by a government that has created 3 million jobs, most of which go to immigrants, without managing to explain the benefits to them.
4) Gillian Duffy is one of those people.
5) Immigration didn't seem to be a deal-breaker for her, until she heard what Brown had said about her, she would've voted for him, immigrants or no immigrants.
6) This implies that she simply wanted to raise it as an issue, asking a Labour government to address it, because she trusted them to do it in a responsible fashion, reflecting the concerns of a loyal electorate who simply wanted reassurance over this issue.
These actions do not a bigot make. However, many people, including the author of the article have leapt to a judgement about Duffy crying shame on her, in a fashion that is, to coin a phrase ""sort of bigoted"". This group is blinded by self-righteous notions that gently questioning governments priorities is the same as extremism. It is this hysterical over-reaction that ensures anger and extremism, as people begin to feel that they are being bullied into silence.
What the whole sorry saga reveals is not that ordinary Britons are bigoted, nor that the right wing media has succeeded in it's devilish plan to make the country racist, but that Brown has betrayed his own base because he has never addressed points 1-3 above. If he had done so, then Mrs Duffy would never have asked the question, because she is not bigoted and is obviously quite open to reason.
It is the author of this article and many other people who have posted on this thread and elsewhere that suffer from a lack of awareness, namely that the bigotry they see in Mrs Duffy is alive and well in them. They would call themselves progressives, i would call them liberal fascists."
"I am sorry for you, I didn't realise that Mrs Duffy was making a direct comment about you personnaly! If you listened to Mrs Duffy without taking everyword as a personnel attack on all Eastern European people you will find her comments had a valid point. The ""Flocking"" of or influx of people from European states has been significant. There have been very little immigration controls. Some of the arguments posted on this site suggest that we have the right to move to other European countries. What if we don't want to?
I applaud your work ethic but you should be aware others from within the EU do not have this and have came to this country to exploit the benifit system and prosper, in the past, from the strength of the economy. In Roachdale and in my local community there has been a lot of problems, criminaly from certain elements of the migrating population and I believe Mrs Duffy had a vaild point in raising the issue along with the other issues she raised about taxation! Wonder if there are any irate tax collectors out there as Mrs Duffy picked on them too! As for Browns comments - He came off rather well in the confrontation but his digust afterward has proved that all these 'engaging' encounters with the public are carefully managed and Mrs Duffy got through!! no honesty what so ever in politics today!!!
As for your no vote comment, I agree Taxation without representation is criminal, but think about how we as brittons feel when our elected officals act without our consent including acting when we are so vocal in our opposition, e.g EU Treaty, Iraq War - Our votes count for nothing!! So don't feel left out.
Out of the three main parties we have no choice! we have the same greedy manipulative politicians we will always have unless we can make a difference. I beg everyone not to vote on May 6. Show your own disgust with the entire system.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Election-2010-Dont-Vote/112693892099996"
"And so the leftist smear machine goes into its most vicious cycle.
The woman's an OAP who did absolutely nothing wrong. You people are disgusting."
"Dear Marina
I'm glad you've written this. I am British but I can understand the feeling of disenfranchisement from voting even though I vote ... let me explain ... I cast my vote, but the newspapers, TV, political blogsters, media in general (particularly those controlled by Murdoch and Tory leaning such as NOTW and Spectator) completely cut off mine and the opinion of 65% of population which are anti-bigots and anti-selfishness of those that are the richest people in the country. 65% is the percentage of people that do no vote Tory and therefore the majority of people (including me) are disenfranchised by the Tory leaning and in particular sensationalist Murdoch media. They block views that are not in their interest and give the impression that people are behind them, and try to manipulat and sway the electoral system. This time round, leading to GE 2010 we feel disenfranchised because the media, particulaly SkyN and Sun and NOTW and Daily Mail, have completely ignored policy and try to influence the outcome through stage managed and crass attacks on Gordon Brown, or Nick Clegg or anyone who does not fit in with Cameron/Osborne. We run the risk of turning into Bush's USA 2000-2008 controlled by the rightwing neocon section of Tories lead by their puppet Cameron.
The people need to stand up to Murdoch empire and their Tory mouthpiece, we have to come together to ensure that Tories do not win this election otherwise so many people, including Eastern Europeans and other perfectly lawful overseas visitors working here and the British people 65% of which will be disenfranchised. The anger and resentment will be so enormous and will create fractures in the fabric of society the longer the Tories are allowed to rule. And without electoral reform their task helped by Ashcroft and Murdoch empire will be complete, they will keep the FPTP electoral system and keep a stranglehold on the rest of us that don't want them. We need to make sure the voice of the majority British people and those people like Marina who live here and are also disenfranchised and feel opressed and unfairly treated in the way she describes vote properly and not be swayed by the scandal that is Murdoch's continuous mudslinging at Brown, of which bigotgate is the latest attempt. LibDem and Labour need to work together to keep the Tories out.
If there is any risk in a constituency that the Tory can get in, then left & liberal minded people need to make sure you vote for the party that is most likely to prevent them. This means in some places LibDem voters swallowing partisan pride and vote for Labour and vice versa. Where LibDem and Labour are marginals against each other, then the best chance to keep Tories out nationally is to vote Labour as it is the party that can get enough vote to block tories."
"I'm angry too.
We get the politicians and it seems the media we deserve.
You feel disenfranchised and yet can get your ideas across in a national newspaper. Where does that leave the rest of us?
I'll answer you - fucked."
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I'm struggling to believe that there are people praising Brown for calling her a bigot Even if we leave aside whether she is a bigot on this evidence (she's not, you know), the fact that he made it behind her back after 5 minutes of the usual political simpering is nothing but cowardly, surely?
"It is quite possible to express concern about easten european immigration, as Mrs Duffy did without being being labelled a bigot.
Immigration may well have a positive side - but also negative ones. The huge influx of eastern europeans in a very short space of time has, in addition to the benefits that has brought, caused some problems. To ignore that or demonise anyone who raises the issue is disgusting.
The main issue is, however - Brown's hypocrisy, as the quiotre below demonstrates
""I have never agreed with the lazy elitism that dismisses immigration as an issue, or portrays anyone who has concerns about immigration as a racist.
Immigration is not an issue for fringe parties nor a taboo subject - it is a question to be dealt with at the heart of our politics, a question about what it means to be British.....""
From the Prime Minister's Speech on Immigration in Ealing, west London.
(12 November, 2009)"
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I think the woman was bigoted in her comments and obvious distaste for Eastern Europeans. Gordon Brown should have shown the courage of his convictions and outlined why he said that about her. He should have defended the good name of any immigrant and not been flailing so desperately to undo the political damage.
"Milena, since you wrote a whole article about Gillian Duffy being a bigot, it would have been nice if you have given over a sentence or two to justify that accusation?
How is she a bigot?"
"_AT_AllyF:
I don't understand your situation, could you please elaborate? Are these travellers or are they living in houses? Are these people EU residents? Is this a similar situation to that about which Mrs Duffy was concerned?
At the risk of blundering into a sensitive issue, I'm not sure that these issues are 100% connected. Being angry about a large group of possibly illegal foreign settlers does not necesarily justify comments about east europeans legally 'flocking' into the country, unless this is specifically the issue being referred to. There is the danger of being, to be frank, racist. To be clear, I am not accusing anyone of racist opinions, I am genuinely interesting in understanding the situation.
Melina is telling us how the comments made by Mrs Duffy upset her. She will not be the only one. Therefore Mr Brown is not the only one with some apologising to do."
How does someone this sensitive to perceived criticism function in the real world?
"Like Worky above, I think your reaction to this Milena is perhaps mitigated by the fact that your main source of information was a Twitter feed. I wouldn't presume to tell you to get a life, if only for the fact that I too was following this story mainly on Twitter yesterday, but demotic as Twitter is, it doesn't really reflect a clear picture of public opinion. Anyway, from what I saw during yesterday afternoon, a lot of people (myself included) were saying ""Well I think this woman (or her statements) could be seen as bigoted"", so don't go assuming that you had no support within the population as a whole.
Having said that, the more I hear about this non-story (heaven help us if the election hinges on this), the more I think it sad that we still seem unable to move away from the ""them coming over here"" ignorance and fear that typifies the debate on immigration, rather than considering such things as net inward and outward migration."
Mrs Duffy is just the latest in a line of xenophobes stretching way back for centuries. First it was the Irish, who came and built our canals, then it was the Asians who came and opened our convenient corner shops, then it was the Blacks, now it is members of the European Union "flocking" from Eastern Europe. She is ignorant of the two-way passage of labour in the EU and Brown tried to explain it to her. He was patient and polite. No wonder he expressed his exasperation when he was out of earshot - except that he wasn't, which was bad luck. Of course he should be sympathetic to the worries of people for their jobs; I think he is. Xenophobia always increases in times of recession but it's still xenophobia. Don't other people find bigots irritating?
"And so the leftist smear machine goes into its most vicious cycle.
The woman's an OAP who did absolutely nothing wrong. You people are disgusting."
"Milena, since you wrote a whole article about Gillian Duffy being a bigot, it would have been nice if you have given over a sentence or two to justify that accusation?
How is she a bigot?"
"Mrs Duffy's comment only served to highlight just how bigoted the vast majority of people in this country have become. It is a sad endightment of our supposedly tolerant society that such casual racism is not acceptable but seemingly to be applauded and defended. Shame on you those who claim she's only saying what needs to be said and voicing an opinion that many share but are too frightened to express because of so-called 'political correctness'.
I have several Eastern European friends - parents of children at the same school as my own - and they are appalled at the way the media, and Cameron, have leapt to Mrs Duffy's defence.
Fair play to Gordon Brown for syaing what he did. My only criticism is that he didn't have the Ed Balls to say it in public."
I'm struggling to believe that there are people praising Brown for calling her a bigot Even if we leave aside whether she is a bigot on this evidence (she's not, you know), the fact that he made it behind her back after 5 minutes of the usual political simpering is nothing but cowardly, surely?
"Well said Mili.
Unfortunately this country is full of xenophobes, egged on by the Tory press. I'm afraid nothing is going to change that. We prefer blaming outsiders for our problems to confronting and doing something about them.
One thing that really annoys me about the anti-immigration zealots is the way that they keep going on about how overcrowded Britain is. The thing that always strikes me, as I travel around, is that the opposite is true. Huge areas (outside the south-east) are just empty. Wales could double in population and no-one would notice.
I think Nick Clegg has got it just right with his regional scheme"
"Great post.
Its appalling that we are more willing to attack the person who correctly describes somebody as a bigot for peddling prejuidced untruths about migrants than we are to call them what they are."
"This a battle between reason and the siren call of the right-wing press with their fake worldview, designed to highten tension, spread discontent and sell papers.
I note that Poland has yet to provide the UK with popular Polish-style restaurants. Impress us with your food and the process of being embraced, even by the most degenerate, knuckle-dragging types, will begin.
What Englishman can live without curry, for example?"
"This article echoes my thoughts exactly.
All the Brown-bashing in the media suggests that actually treating Eastern Europeans like non-citizens is fine. Gordon Brown might have made a political blinder by calling her a bigot, but it is only because he did so in private. If he had said it to her face and publicly I would have nothing but respect for him. Politicians are not there to cater to the views of every single ignorant individual and should be allowed to expose hateful people like Mrs. Duffy.
Normal eurosceptic service may now resume."
Well done for writing this...Brown certainly made a gaff, but he wasn't wrong in his view.
"Like Worky above, I think your reaction to this Milena is perhaps mitigated by the fact that your main source of information was a Twitter feed. I wouldn't presume to tell you to get a life, if only for the fact that I too was following this story mainly on Twitter yesterday, but demotic as Twitter is, it doesn't really reflect a clear picture of public opinion. Anyway, from what I saw during yesterday afternoon, a lot of people (myself included) were saying ""Well I think this woman (or her statements) could be seen as bigoted"", so don't go assuming that you had no support within the population as a whole.
Having said that, the more I hear about this non-story (heaven help us if the election hinges on this), the more I think it sad that we still seem unable to move away from the ""them coming over here"" ignorance and fear that typifies the debate on immigration, rather than considering such things as net inward and outward migration."
"These comments are exactly what is wrong with New Labour and its supporters.
The majority of contributions prove that New Labour supporters are a cabal of sneering intellectual liberals who believe they know best.
Let us be honest, most of you vote labour because you believe it is a moral pursuit. Anyone who does not believe in your crusade is vilified.
Why cannot the prols accept our rule, shut up and accept what it is good for them.
The Labour party has been hijacked by the politically correct chattering class with absolutely no understanding of what drives people like poor old Mrs Duffy. Her only sin was to believe that New Labour represented her interests."
Well, here's another one, Milena - thank you for this article. It is a shaming moment to be British (and to be Labour).
Mrs Duffy is just the latest in a line of xenophobes stretching way back for centuries. First it was the Irish, who came and built our canals, then it was the Asians who came and opened our convenient corner shops, then it was the Blacks, now it is members of the European Union "flocking" from Eastern Europe. She is ignorant of the two-way passage of labour in the EU and Brown tried to explain it to her. He was patient and polite. No wonder he expressed his exasperation when he was out of earshot - except that he wasn't, which was bad luck. Of course he should be sympathetic to the worries of people for their jobs; I think he is. Xenophobia always increases in times of recession but it's still xenophobia. Don't other people find bigots irritating?
"One has to break this incident down into its constituent parts, something our media is congenitally incapable of doing. First there is Mrs Duffy and the type of person and class that she represents, there is how a politician deals with the sort of exchange they have with a voter on the hustings, there is the balance of opinion across the UK and then there is Gordon Brown.
Mrs Duffy is partly bigoted and whether that is attributable to intelligence, background or media/friends brainwashing is difficult to say given the brouhaha that has broken out.
She comes from a section of the country that currently has the bit between its teeth about immigration and all those who want to exploit that from racists to politicians are riding that wave for all it is worth. There are many myths about immigration but all the facts put before people do not seem to be allaying fears and grievances - justified or not.
A politician interacts with voters according to how their personality and experience directs them. Too many politicians agree with their interlocutor in order to win their vote although, generally speaking, more extreme topics such as racism tend to make politicians take a harder line. What a politician needs to avoid is appearing to be a hypocrite or liar and saying one thing whilst thinking (or saying) the other is a natural turn-off.
That Gordon Brown got it wrong is part of his story and thus is not that big a news story. His mistake in my view is to regard his encounter with her as out of the ordinary and a 'disaster' as that seems to confirm that he is not really in tune with the common man even if he may not agree with him.
My feeling is that the majority of people do not really get worked up about East Europeans coming here to work within EU rules - except the lazy sods who think they are being done out of a job but in reality wouldn't want hard work. But the UK is a slightly dour country and it should not surprise Milena that there is grumpiness in certain quarters. The barrow merchant who mocks the EU about weights and measures is as part of the British landscape (unfortunately) as the Oxford don. The country is conservative with a small c, which is why the Tory party still exists and why a change such as an influx of Poles rocks the status quo."
"Well said Mili.
Unfortunately this country is full of xenophobes, egged on by the Tory press. I'm afraid nothing is going to change that. We prefer blaming outsiders for our problems to confronting and doing something about them.
One thing that really annoys me about the anti-immigration zealots is the way that they keep going on about how overcrowded Britain is. The thing that always strikes me, as I travel around, is that the opposite is true. Huge areas (outside the south-east) are just empty. Wales could double in population and no-one would notice.
I think Nick Clegg has got it just right with his regional scheme"
Finally someone agrees that Duffy IS a bigot and there are god knows how many more like her in the UK. It would have been a fantastic election moment if Brown had been the first politician to not sit on the fence, to not worry about offending a potential voter and say, 'You're a bigot! Your narrow-minded opinion isn't acceptable in this day and age.' And he did. And then he apologised for this... Pff.
"_AT_AllyF
Classic grandstanding. You say:

So I assume the emotional wellbeing of those in your community is related to how well represented their ethnicity is? What exactly do you mean?

Why not? If you took her advice, you may make some headway in closing this vast gap in understanding you describe:

Presumably all those Roma were moved there because your neighbourhood was deemed to have more resource (housing etc) than others and was therefore better able to cope with the influx.
Disappointing stuff, AllyF. If I was Milena Popova I would break down in floods of tears reading your post, but as it is I'll just calmly await your reply."
A good post Milena. I think that people see a problem and want a scapegoat. It saves a lot of thinking. I've worked abroad and so have a small sense of what it's like to be somewhere when one is not 'one of us'.
"Milena

A balanced view?
What like bursting into tears when an old granny says thats Eastern Europeans have flocked to this country?
Do you think that branding people bigots for suggesting that the immigration policy of the last few years might not have worked particularly well is balanced?"
"""Words fail me. Yesterday I stared alternately at my screen and keyboard in complete and utter paralysis, while inside I was raging. At one point I actually genuinely broke down in tears and great heaving sobs.""
Oh, so we'd better all observe a respectful silence and agree with anything else you've got to say.
Congratulations. A great future awaits you as a me-me-me, why-oh-why columnist.. Liz Jones is shaking in her Jimmy Choos."
"Racist bigots like yourself do not represent 60 million British people (in fact, you hate and wish to remove about 2 million of our fellow Brits because they are muslim), all people have to do is read your other posts.
This is what I am talking about."
"_AT_Milena: I follow about 90 mostly leftwing fluffy liberal people on Twitter
Poor you, no wonder you are confused. But really Milena, stop being so silly. You know full well that given your circumstances, you are welcome to live and work in the UK. Clearly, you have failed to listen properly to what was said and are simply enjoying a self-pitying juvenile rant over imagined slights. In doing so, you choose to insult an elderly woman who has expressed entirely reasonable opinions that reflect her experiences of living in Rochdale. Are you so intolerant that you can?t be bothered to consider her concerns?
Rather than feeling sorry for yourself despite being well educated, well paid and living in just about the most inclusive country in Europe, you would do better to consider the outright hostility and prejudice directed at those of a different culture in your home country. Or virtually any east European country, come to that. Or would that be too much like reality for you?
Perhaps you just need to follow your own advice - to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something. Give a try."
"Dear Marina
I'm glad you've written this. I am British but I can understand the feeling of disenfranchisement from voting even though I vote ... let me explain ... I cast my vote, but the newspapers, TV, political blogsters, media in general (particularly those controlled by Murdoch and Tory leaning such as NOTW and Spectator) completely cut off mine and the opinion of 65% of population which are anti-bigots and anti-selfishness of those that are the richest people in the country. 65% is the percentage of people that do no vote Tory and therefore the majority of people (including me) are disenfranchised by the Tory leaning and in particular sensationalist Murdoch media. They block views that are not in their interest and give the impression that people are behind them, and try to manipulat and sway the electoral system. This time round, leading to GE 2010 we feel disenfranchised because the media, particulaly SkyN and Sun and NOTW and Daily Mail, have completely ignored policy and try to influence the outcome through stage managed and crass attacks on Gordon Brown, or Nick Clegg or anyone who does not fit in with Cameron/Osborne. We run the risk of turning into Bush's USA 2000-2008 controlled by the rightwing neocon section of Tories lead by their puppet Cameron.
The people need to stand up to Murdoch empire and their Tory mouthpiece, we have to come together to ensure that Tories do not win this election otherwise so many people, including Eastern Europeans and other perfectly lawful overseas visitors working here and the British people 65% of which will be disenfranchised. The anger and resentment will be so enormous and will create fractures in the fabric of society the longer the Tories are allowed to rule. And without electoral reform their task helped by Ashcroft and Murdoch empire will be complete, they will keep the FPTP electoral system and keep a stranglehold on the rest of us that don't want them. We need to make sure the voice of the majority British people and those people like Marina who live here and are also disenfranchised and feel opressed and unfairly treated in the way she describes vote properly and not be swayed by the scandal that is Murdoch's continuous mudslinging at Brown, of which bigotgate is the latest attempt. LibDem and Labour need to work together to keep the Tories out.
If there is any risk in a constituency that the Tory can get in, then left & liberal minded people need to make sure you vote for the party that is most likely to prevent them. This means in some places LibDem voters swallowing partisan pride and vote for Labour and vice versa. Where LibDem and Labour are marginals against each other, then the best chance to keep Tories out nationally is to vote Labour as it is the party that can get enough vote to block tories."
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"_AT_gkelly
""If you don't like the way the 60 million British people feel, think, speak and act, why don't you flock off back to where you came from? Then you won't have to put up with it any more.""
We don't think, speak and act like that, only the BIGOTS amongst us do."
"Saarfyorkshire, see my 2:01pm comment - we are agreed.
I speak as someone who employs E European labour, thinks they are great and wants them to stay. But I can see what it is doing to the working class who were already here."
"I bet there are more immigrants in Mrs Duffy's town from other parts of the world than there are from Eastern Europe and what's more, if some Eastern European stood and stared in Mrs Duffy's eyes she wouldn't be able to tell them apart from a Scot or Irish or a Yorkshireman.
I'm no mind reader, but I hazard a guess that what Mrs Duffy was really complaining about were the ""visible"" immigrants, those who look different, but she couldn't quite bring herself to utter the ""P"" word and instead plumped for the much less racist catch all term. So maybe she was actually trying not to sound bigoted.
Still it would be interesting to find out the immigrant profile of her town."
ps it's sad to see how quickly an immigrant has adapted to our contemporary british enthusiasm for grievance mongering, and uncontrolled hysteria whenever something offends one's me-me-me worldview.
"Bleedin' East Europeans... comin' over 'ere creating our jobs an' boosting our economy.
What about the pensioners, that's what I'd like to know. Oo'd pay all the taxes to pay our pensions if it wasn't for these flocking East Europeans?
Let's all go dahn The Strand ('av a banana)."
"You should direct your anger towards the racist press, not Mrs Duffy.
The right wing anti-immigrant press dominate the immigration debate with their hate-filled lies - Mrs Duffy is just repeating them."
Guardian, a new low.
Exactly. Brown called a little Englander a bigot and that is a scandal?
"edmundberk - in my book a bigot is somebody who not only has beliefs about ""others"" based on their place of orgin or ethnicity, but willingly believes and spreads every rumour that reinforces this belief.
That is all."
Please stop lying by claiming that immigration brings economic benefits to the country and that we owe all you immigrants a tremendous debt of gratitude for all the prosperity you are bringing. The lie has been debunked a thousands times, including by MigrationWatch and the House of Lords. It has been shown that you, in fact, reduce the incomes of the lowest earners by creating competition at the lower end of the wage spectrum. You immigrants are systematically impoverishing the British working class and you expect gratitude for it? You need to be earning 27K per year before you are making a net contribution to the economy and very few immigrants earn that much.
"Dear Milena,
You're not an immigrant. You're European, and have as much ""right"" to be here as I do. Gillian Duffy is just a woman who does not understand the changes that she sees around her, because those making the changes have not explained that they are positive changes. Just as Brown did not explain yesterday.
It would be nice if all countries could open their borders to all other countries, but the pace of change would be so very fast and destabilising that no one could explain it at all. Mass migration has to be managed, and making the places where people are born and bred into places where they can be happy and have decent lives is part of that too.
It would be wonderful if one fine day we could all have equal choice about the places in the world that we want to call home. But we're some way away from that right now. Sadly.
All best."
25% of Brits living abroad do manual or clerical work, not very out of the ordinary skills required there.
"The Guardian and liberal media have lost the plot on this. If you use a verb normally applicable to animals to talk about immigrants you are prime facie a bigot.
Brown actually went up in my estimation when he showed that in private he has little time for the sort of nasty narrowmindedness that lie behind such opinions.
We are not allowed to talk about immigration because the 'political elite' won't listen to 'ordinary people' but because the tabloid media has such a grip over the issue that there is no opportunity for ignorant people to be corrected."
"As someone who lived in the UK as an immigrant from 1986 to 2006, I hear what you're saying. I was able to vote, as a Commonwealth citizen. But being a less-obvious immigrant, sometimes blending in, had its own problems. Being assumed complicit in the generally-accepted body of opinion wasn't where I wanted to be, but being heard wasn't easy, either.
I did eventually leave, and return to Canada. And since I got back, the UK seems further away than it ever did, as I watch the tide of opinion which seems to wish to pervert everything I enjoyed while there, and those whose only goal seems to be to get out."
"Milena you are right!
Gordon Brown is also right.
In fairness, Gordon Brown stood up against prejudice in any Form.
Do not forgot the ?flocking? Brits in other European (and non European) countries
With very good salaries (more than 2 000 000 UK Citizens)!"
There's a lot you can do about this Milena- why not join a local political party which really does stand up for immigrants, from Eastern Europe or elsewhere? And while you don't have the vote at general elections, you do for the local elections and European Parliament equivalent if you're from another EU state. So if you're registered you can still vote on May 6th. Make sure you do so for a party that stands up for immigrants; those from other EU states who are just using the same rights to move around the EU that we have, and those from elsewhere who only come here because life's so crap where they come from - in many cases as a result of Western plunder in the past.
I was hoping Brown would come out after his 40 minutes in her house (curtains drawn, what did he have to do?) and say "Actually, yes, she is a bigot" and then go onto why we need people like our rightly hurt writer here. Why are all these foreginers here? Because too many of her neighbours are all watching Trisha during the day and quite frankly we need people to do the jobs and pay the taxes that keep them in the sloth they've gotten very used to... The problem here is that people are jumping on the It's OK To Talk About Immigration Now Bandwagon and can't see a bigot when one presents itself.
I'm not sure on this one but I suspect that being used as an election issue is something many Eastern Europeans are familiar with after all there are minorities and immigrants in their own countries who are used to being treated in such a shameless way.
"And so the leftist smear machine goes into its most vicious cycle.
The woman's an OAP who did absolutely nothing wrong. You people are disgusting."
It was bigoted, and it is only the crazy political correctness of the right which refuses to acknowledge the fact, Labour should have stuck to their guns.
"_AT_Milena
""To those who didn't think it needed saying: If you don't speak up and tell your leaders that you don't buy what you're being fed by the tabloids, your leaders will only listen to the tabloids. It doesn't matter if you're a majority - if you're a silent majority it's as if you don't exist. Speak out, don't let things like this go unchallenged.""
I could not agree more with everything you have said, I can honestly say that my first thought yesterday was to find out what the women had said and once I heard I thought her a bigot, I have been saying all day to people at work about this and about your article and I people are looking at me as if I am insane, they just take the media line as it is the final word on the matter and believe every word the Daily Express feeds to them, its quite depressing that so many people hold these views and we need to tell them they are wrong and they need to educate themselves. Wake up people, stop watching *ucking X Factor and reading the Daily Mailspress and look around you at reality. BTW Charlie Brooker dissects the idiocy of the media brilliantly in Newswipe."
maximusmanc - to be honest I find the prospect of a Cameron led Tory government rather less scary than what we currently have which is the Murdoch empire trying to dictate to Cameron/Brown/Clegg AND everybody else. Tories are only a symptom of the problem. The right-wing press needs far more censure and less of an easy ride.
Well said Milena.
Racism is just fear. this debate needs opening up in an adult way _immigration does need controlling but also there needs to be more done to alleviate people's concerns and fears about the immigrant population we are human first English and Polish second . People who come here dont just take but also give-God I wish we could have an open and emotionally mature debate about this issue. I am English -My dad is Indian, my mother was Irish but i really only know what it is like to be English- and we need unity in this recession not division -It is quite scary that if the budget deficit got worse andt the recovery faltered -who would be scape goated. We all have to be better than this!!!!
"Just to say, I've never understood the antipathy towards immigrants in this country but that could be because i consider myself European and a citizen of the world rather than English. I suppose this makes me a bleeding hreated , chattering class liberal according to some...The xenophobia this country promotes in the narrow-minded press frustrates and saddens me. No wonder people are emigrating from the country in droves when you look at what a selfish society predominates - the countries people are emigrating to have a stronger sense of community and caring for each other.
I thought what Gillian Duffy said was out of order and it's depressing politicians have to kowtow to people whose opinions are informed by the Daily Mail etc
Please don't think we all feel this way."
"Spot on. The UK economy has benefited IMMENSELY by having guest workers such as yourself to do the jobs most of us are unwilling to do.
Attacking immigrants when there is a recession is just good old fashioned prejudice.
I thought Britain had grown out of that by now.
Obviously we haven't."
i registered to comment, that i had the opposite experience of twitter reading #bigotgate a flood of people (about 100 per minute) were commenting in various humorous ways about how bigoted she was, someone even set a profile up called GillianTheBigot and pretended to be her. It actually gave me hope that people in rural England might not be as bigoted as a vocal minority like Gillian the Bigot make it seem. I would point out at how succesfully Sky News managed to bury the actual footage that it took 10 minutes of scouring the internet to find the full footage which frustrated and disgusted me.
"My god, if this can upset you, you really need to get a thicker skin.
So she's a bigot. Don't ask me to apologise for her just because I was born here. Scratch back a few generations and it's mixed bag.
Move on girl, move on."
"In my case, they are my parents. They're from an earlier wave of immigrants from the Caribbean. I can't say I've noticed a reciprocal curiosity about us from the people from the accession states but it doesn't affect my general positivity towards their arrival.
Just don't ask me to holiday in their countries because I can guess at the reception I'd get."
"_AT_middleenglandlefty;
Perhaps a bulletin from your WASPish idyll, would do more to quell the passions of grimy norvern oiks, if you could point to an instance where 100s of 1000s of british emigres had resulted in wage deflation in the place they landed, as they were able to take lower wages due to the much lower cost of living back in blighty.
Because you know, then you might have the beginning of a point."
"There was a time when 99% of people in Britain were British born-and-bred, with no affiliation or loyalty to any other nation or culture. I appreciate those days are now in the past, but I don't recall ever being asked if I wanted to share my already over-populated country with millions of immigrants. Where people are asked if they want more immigrants, most answer that they do not, but governments tend to ignore this because it suits their political and economic ambitions to do so.
Allowing immigrants into any country can bring a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks, and the indigenous population are the people who should decide if they want it and the extent to which they are prepared to accept it and which, if any, immigrants they are prepared to accept and on what conditions."
"The whole thing is a terrible misunderstanding.
Gordon actually only said she was a big-titted woman.
Nothing controvertial there."
"Why are so many people claiming that GD raised a 'valid point', on here and throughout the print and broadcast media? I've read the transcripts and listened to the exchange and I can't figure out what point she was trying to make. It's not exactly insightful to ask where Eastern Europeans are 'flocking' from.
The 'valid point' that the press has fallen upon is that there are far more people of eastern european origin living in this country than a few years ago. This is true. But what follows from that? In and of itself it means little. It has to be coupled with something else. Something like 'and they're taking all our jobs', which is arguable to say the least. Or 'and I just don't like it', which is pretty close to bigotry.
I don't think she meant ""all these eastern europeans are flocking here and I'm really grateful to them for the interesting cuisine and high quality work they do in building, plumbing and related trades. Not to mention the important work in business and the health service together with a substantial tax contribution to the exchequer. Ooh I just love living in a diverse outward looking country"""
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Milena I don't think you should have taken Gillian's comments personally. I understand your frustration as I live next door to two South African's who are teachers and contribute enormously to our society & economy without much in return in the way of benefits. However although I don't know her sources I suspect Gillian's comments are based on hearsay and information from her Social circle & local community as most of our experience is. So if you take the construction industry for example it is almost impossible for a British contractor to win contracts using British workers because they cant compete on price with those who use immigrant workers. Most ordinary British people who know trades people would probably confirm that. I also think that people believe these workers live in shared accommodation and send money home to their families taking revenue out of the economy. I suspect that most British trades people do not think that they can go to an Eastern European country and achieve the same results even though overseas work can be tax free. The word immigrant covers too broad a range to get upset by it being used as a sound bite and not put into context.
"I didn't think I could add much to AllyF's excellent post, but here goes.
Milena, I'm sorry that you were so upset by Gillian Duffy's comments - if someone had been sounding off in similar circumstances about 'all those gays flocking in' I daresay I would have felt a little attacked myself.
But, really, if anyone is exhibiting a sense of entitlement, I'm afraid it's you. The article fair drips with it. I also think it's you who are being - breathtakingly - judgmental, making sweeping statements about 60 million-plus Brits.
You choose not to become a British citizen, though (from what you say) you have had the opportunity to do so, and you are, judging by your tax status, making a good living here, which suggests it might also be in your self-interest to do so.
Like it or not, our politicians are elected to represent those who are committed to the UK long term, either by being born here (of whatever race) or by becoming naturalised citizens. People who are on the electoral roll, in short. If you are - in effect - choosing to remain transitory, you can't reasonably expect the election to revolve around your interests.
I speak as a Brit who spends a considerable portion of the year (and a certain amount of tax) at my second home in Austria. I take an interest in what's happening politically over there, of course, but I don't presume to lecture my Austrian neighbours on what they should think or how they should vote. And I have met enough eastern Europeans - Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Russians and others - both here and in Central/Eastern Europe not to make silly generalisations about them."
"Well said Milena. Newsnight interviewed three people from Oldham, all of whom were also anti-immigration. I don't know if they were welected for their surnames. One was called O'Sullivan. Another was called O'Shea. The last was called Keane. The woman in question where all this has come from is called Duffy.
It is total hypocrisy for people called O'Sullivan, O'Shea, Keane and Duffy to be slagging off cheap migrants from poorer areas."
"thfc
""looneyfromcatford
I can't be bothered with you.""
How much f**king effort does it take to recommend a political party for me to vote for, eh?
You claim Gordon Brown and Labour hate me (yesterday you claimed Labour hate white people) so provide me with an alternative.
Cameron loves me, does he? Nick Griffin wants to save me, does he? Be good for me, would he?
I'm open to enlightenment and education always - I'm self interested enough to vote for someone who cares about me.
You made the original claim - suggest alternatives for us low skilled and semi-skilled workers.
CiF is nothing if not a soapbox in which we can have our say and attempt to influence and educate others - educate me."
I have sympathy for all the parties involved here - the writer of the article, Gordon Brown and Mrs. Duffy. To be fair to Gordon Brown, he did try to point out to Mrs. Duffy the fact that there are as many British people living and working abroad as there are Europeans living and working here, so it is a two-way thing. To be fair to Mrs. Duffy, she is probably worried that there are a lot of non-English speaking workers in this country who could be taking the jobs of British born people currently out of work (I myself have been in hotels staffed entirely by East Europeans, some of whom didn't understand English and got the orders completely wrong). Now Mrs. Duffy is probably wrong about this - as she herself I think acknowledged when she talked about British people getting benefits and not making an effort to get work - but you can't really blame her for thinking this. Brown was also right to talk about 'British jobs for British workers', i.e. that we should be educating and skilling our young people so that they are equipped and skilled for the jobs available in this country, and that we should be making sure that in the jobs market native-born Brits are not under-cut by foreigners willing to work for a pittance.
zedvictor1, you are quite objectionable. The irony of what you say is clearly lost on you, since YOU ARE THE ONE who is being Judgemental
What a wonderful over-reaction to one old woman's off the cuff remark. Maybe while we're off talking to immigrants about their (real) problems, maybe you could find british pensioner and ask them about their (also real) problems? You might even discover that what you call 'bigotry' is better described as 'fear'.
"as an aside, isn't it blackly comic that the sorts who once ranted about 'on yer bike' tebbit, now effectively argue that any working class person unhappy about their earnings being decimated, should get on a fecking plane.
come the revolution; the middle class left will be first against the wall."
I still don't get it, why do racists like gkelly read the guardian?! Why not pop over to the mail? It's still free, isn't it?
Milena I don't think you should have taken Gillian's comments personally. I understand your frustration as I live next door to two South African's who are teachers and contribute enormously to our society & economy without much in return in the way of benefits. However although I don't know her sources I suspect Gillian's comments are based on hearsay and information from her Social circle & local community as most of our experience is. So if you take the construction industry for example it is almost impossible for a British contractor to win contracts using British workers because they cant compete on price with those who use immigrant workers. Most ordinary British people who know trades people would probably confirm that. I also think that people believe these workers live in shared accommodation and send money home to their families taking revenue out of the economy. I suspect that most British trades people do not think that they can go to an Eastern European country and achieve the same results even though overseas work can be tax free. The word immigrant covers too broad a range to get upset by it being used as a sound bite and not put into context.
That would be my WASPish idyll in Birmingham in an multi-ethnic area with a mosque 2 blocks away? With a Polish shop on the corner and 5 Polish families on my block? Can you point me to the lower wages, show me jobs where the wages are lower now?
"Saying your town looks like a 'third world country' just because there are immigrants is bigotted, as far as I'm concerned.
Of course, I doubt the right wing press would be defending her quite so much had see said West Indian instead of East European.
PS - How convenient it just happened to be a Sky News mic attached to him. Insert: X-Files Theme here."
"Can we first establish that there is the POSSIBILITY of too much immigration? Judging by some comments, it seems that this is impossible.
Once we have stablished there is such a possibility, then lets discuss:
How many immigrants do we want?
What kind of immigrants do we want?
What rights do immigrants have? The writer seems to whinge that she cannot vote in UK elections, is this reasonable?"
"As a British immigrant living in France where I also contribute to society by paying high taxes with no right to vote in general elections either in France or the UK (as a non-resident for more than 15 years), I completely sympathise with the writer.
Luckily France does not appear to put all immigrants in the same category as being either benefit scroungers or stealing jobs from the French. Maybe you should move here?"
"My wife is of Indian origin. Until she became a British citizen two years ago she had been an immigrant too. She came to the UK with her first husband her prime motive being to seek a better life and a good education her young son. Since arriving here she has gone out and actively sought work, at one point actually refusing benefits she was having pushed at her by a council worker who presumably thought she was being helpful.
She is a strong and resourceful person who did not dream of seeking funds for which she felt she was not eligible and hadn?t contributed towards. We have both met (and informed on) benefits cheats, some of whom were, yes East Europeans.
Mrs Duffy is not a bigot. She is someone who has worked hard all her life in the service of others and now sees the next generation in her view being cheated out of their birthright. If this is not true it is surely the job of those who seek political office to make this abundantly clear. She has an absolute right to express this concern.
Thank God she was able to do so to our Prime Minister. Thank God too he had the mic still on to further reveal his nasty, bullying and aggressive nature. This has reinforced to me that I still cannot return to voting Labour because it does not espouse the views it did before Bliar and Mandy got their grubby little mitts on it and turned it into NuLabor"
"A more pertinent question is: Why is the government paying so many indigenous people to not work?
This, of course, is why are there are so many vacancies for others to fill?"
Very true.
"Milena
You make a fundamental errors in your article. People's opposition to migration is not a personal criticism of you, or any other immigrant.
It is a criticism of our Government's policy on massive immigration. Mrs Duffy quite rightly put her criticism to the Prime Minister, not to you.
The second is that the presence of immigrants here en masse directly and adversly affect Mrs Duffy's life chances and especially those of her children, and grandchildren. Do you imagine you have contributed anything to their lives?
Nothing Mrs Duffy could do, or has done in more than 40 years of paying UK taxes has any ability to have a similar adverse affect on the people of Bulgaria. Quite the opposite.
Have you been to her home town? Do you fondly imagine that she has the money or resources to spend time or money twittering or sipping lattes?
What you haven't explained is why people should stand up to Gillian Duffy. Stand up so you have more rights than her and her family in her own country, and so you can take advantage a country that you have had no part of building, but she and her family had.
What arrogance!"
"This article is beyond parody....
This incidents shows that you can't have a discussion about immigration without being labelled a racist/bigot.... I used to think that wasn't true, that elements of the press were making it up.... but apparently not....
what Mrs Duffy wanted to know is why the immigrants she was referring to were here - not whether they should or shouldn't be here, but why? Why Rochdale in particular? She wasn't questioning their right... Can someone explain why that makes here a bigot as many on here seem to think? No one had bothered to explain that to her
and as for this pathetic idea that the word 'flocking' is somehow offensive - Jesus.... grow up, it's a commonly used word - crowds flock to see things in places all the time. This really is ridiculous"
"Broon was right to call her a bigot but only in private. It's not good protocol to be overheard saying it and he could have checked his microphone was turned off. I wonder if it had been a set up by Sky News. It's hilarious though.
To be honest, as somebody who used to go canvassing but not anymore, I used to get sick and tired of the bigots I met on the doorstep as it seemed to be those who had the time to chew the fat regardless of the weather and were more likely to be at home in the evenings. When it comes to the average person expressing their views on politics it's all me me me demanding the government and local council spend as much on their ilk regardless of anybody else. When it's pensioners they begrudge money spent on families even when getting enough and vice versa. It's a case of sour grapes and not wanting any other group to have more spent on it and it's a very short sighted attitude to take."
Well done for taking a stand! Immigration is without doubt a complex issue for this country. I completely agree, however, that there is a lack of discourse about what and how immigrants contribute to not only the economy, but also the culture. There's too much focus on the 'bad' immigrant.
I wonder, if Mrs Duffy had said, "and then there's the Pakis and the Muslims, where are they all coming from... " Would she have had the same support and Gordon the same derision from the media ? There is some sort of dreadful racist hypocrisy going on here, and Gordon's private reaction was a legitimate one.
"aanda:

I see you've fallen for Nu-Labour's pyramid scam. It's a numbers racket - keep waving the people in, working class wages get diluted, nobs in London have more coffee bars to prattle in and the value of housing stays high because there's such a queue. Bernard Madoff made millions like that. Go figger."
Milena I don't think you should have taken Gillian's comments personally. I understand your frustration as I live next door to two South African's who are teachers and contribute enormously to our society & economy without much in return in the way of benefits. However although I don't know her sources I suspect Gillian's comments are based on hearsay and information from her Social circle & local community as most of our experience is. So if you take the construction industry for example it is almost impossible for a British contractor to win contracts using British workers because they cant compete on price with those who use immigrant workers. Most ordinary British people who know trades people would probably confirm that. I also think that people believe these workers live in shared accommodation and send money home to their families taking revenue out of the economy. I suspect that most British trades people do not think that they can go to an Eastern European country and achieve the same results even though overseas work can be tax free. The word immigrant covers too broad a range to get upset by it being used as a sound bite and not put into context.
"Stevehill
it is yourself being crass because Brown was exercising his own right as a human being to vent off some annoyance, he is after all having to watch his owne every move because, unlike the very unscrutinised Cameron, the right wing press and Sky keep their beady eye on him with no let up, The press is so biased that he should be allowed to vent some anger in private. We all have to and he is no different. The Crassness is people saying that he has to have his own rights as a human being reduced, because in reality you say that he should have said it to her face .. really? well I think the media would have been even more cruel and not allowed and you would have said exactly the same thing. You just don' like Brown and letting that colour your judgement"
Yes what a conspiracy to allow a moron to forget he's got a mic on.
"Nope, we have had Alan Johnson, Andy Burnham and Madelson, among others confirming that they would very much like the vote of the working classes after all and that Mrs Duffy is most emphatically not a bigot.
Are you calling them liars ?"
"Good article.
This incident has been blown out of all proportion by the Tory press. Gordon Brown was right. This woman is clearly one of the 'silent majority' (bigots) who have ""concerns"" about immigration (translates to blaming their own failings on others) that the Daily Mail keeps bumping its frothing gums about. A majority that is in actual fact a minority.
The more Eastern Europeans/Immigrants there are in the UK, the better. The sooner the 'silent majority' are diluted out of existence, the better!"
"First, I didn't specify how the British people felt, thought, spoke or acted. Second, it was the author of the article herself who said that the British people as a whole were like Gillian Duffy:
""at being a cheap target for political point scoring because Duffy and the 60 million people like her have a vote""
The author clearly despises Gillian Duffy and the 60 million other people she believes are like her. Why live in a country full of people you despise?"
shoegirl03; great - now what has that got to do with gillian duffy?
"Carpentry
General builders
Scaffolders
Roofing
Plumbing
Bricklaying
Electrical
Truck Driving
Van Driving
Etc etc"
"I thought a lot about this yesterday - should I feel sorry for Brown or not? After all I would most likely have had exactly the same reaction. On it's own without any context it would be a bigoted comment. On the other hand a) I'm not a politician and I think the point was that he doesn't have his emotions in check, blames his staff and was (caught being) two-faced; b) Duffy referred to the flocking Eastern Europeans after speaking about the national debt, tax on her pensions and people scrounging off the State. She came across as an engaged and politically-interested voter in a world where most people are apathetic and not focused on issues. She's an elderly pensioner from Rochdale. I don't expect her to know the three pillars of the EU Single Market or to have a more complex analysis of the issues (maybe that's patronising on my part) so I don't think she's really a bigot. My grandmother who was the most generous person in the world was very uncomfortable with immigration into Ireland. I don't think that if you're elderly and suddenly the culture you have grown up with and lived with for decades makes a sudden shift, it's that surprising that you might comment on it.
I'm just happy that Nick Griffin will let me stay in Britain because apparently ""the Irish are really British anyway."" Fabulous! So much for hard-won independence."
If you want to get angry about slurs on immigrants, how about checking out the Labour party's manifesto, with its chapters headed 'Crime and Immigration' and its boasts about how tight their immigration control is? Or maybe it's just easier for you to pick on some misguided Lancashire pensioner who speaks for nobody but herself. Get over yourself, for goodness sake.
"Oh, grow a pair.
In common with everyone else here, you don't know Gillian Duffy. You don't know what she thinks or feels. You have the sum total of about twenty words to go on."
"This woman espoused what millions of Brits actually think, sadly.
I am not being superior and condescending when I say this, but I hear the same views espoused by the kind of people who read the Sun where I work. When you challenge their illogical, xenophobic views, they are obviously entirely unable to defend them. Because they are bullshit, plain and simple.
Just as people in enlightened nations in the year 2010 cling on to their medieval religions, people are much more comfortable with their blind prejudices. People really aren't interested in facts. If there are too many immigrants, it's because the elite, big business, wants them here. So they can pay them a pittance. Brits on the dole then have someone to hate, the elite have a scapegoat - instead of realising that they, the Brit on the dole, would be expected to do the same shit jobs for a pittance if the immigrants weren't here.
The shocking thing is, this has gone on for decades. The people who are the real enemies of the so called working class are big business and the banks. The political class, especially the Tory party. Tories who are in business make a huge profit from employing these flocks of immigrants, or ""outsourcing"" to foreign countries, sweatshops etc. But that's too much reality for the Union Jack wavers. They prefer the comfort of their blind prejudice, because facing up to what the real enemy is, the real things that have disenfranchised them, is too much to bear."
Why should someone who tells the truth apologise, and a bigoted old lady who is ranting about the people who help everyone's daily life not be made to apologise instead????
"Calm down and start thinking with your brains.
An ordinary, middle aged woman in the middle of her ordinary day is sucked into an enormous media circus. She is presumably not used to public speaking. She tries to express what she honestly feels, speaking off the cuff. How many of you who are shouting 'BIGOT' could have spoken coherently and to the point in that situation? Almost none I would guess.
The concern is not immigration per se, but the scale of immigration and the effects that has on social stability.
Mr Brown should have spent his time listening properly to her and responding/clarifying/arguing instead of creepily gushing about her coat, family etc only to slag her off behind her back."
"You haven't actually articulated what you found so offensive about what Mrs Duffy said. Perhaps because there wasn't anything to be offended by, but you wish to be offended.
You appear to think that immigration is a subject that simply cannot be raised. I find that extremely offensive. It is an entirely legitimate subject for debate. As it happens, I'm a keen advocate of a liberal immigration policy, but I will defend to the death the right of others to question that or indeed to vote for something different. Your view of what comprises free speech is very warped.
Your maths is very poor also. There aren't 60 million people in Britain who have the vote and there are a damn sight more than 200,000 immigrants.
I really have to question the Guardian's ethics in publishing this piece. It seems to be a hamfisted attempt to defend the indefensible, Gordon Brown's two-facedness and his unwillingness to engage with ordinary voters. However, far from you needing permission to have a view in the country to which you emigrated, you are getting the opportunity to express it on the webpage of a national newspaper. And that is the way that this country works. Mrs Duffy is entitled to her view and so are you. I have to say, hers seems at least as well-reasoned as yours."
"Just a thought - given that minorities, the Roma to name but one, are used for all sorts of nefarious political purposes in Eastern Europe I am sure most of the Eastern Europeans here have an insight to what is going on and how they are being used.
Still doesn't make it any less slimy."
"_AT_dogsvomit
""There was a time when 99% of people in Britain were British born-and-bred, with no affiliation or loyalty to any other nation or culture. I appreciate those days are now in the past, but I don't recall ever being asked if I wanted to share my already over-populated country with millions of immigrants. Where people are asked if they want more immigrants, most answer that they do not, but governments tend to ignore this because it suits their political and economic ambitions to do so.
Allowing immigrants into any country can bring a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks, and the indigenous population are the people who should decide if they want it and the extent to which they are prepared to accept it and which, if any, immigrants they are prepared to accept and on what conditions.""
Voting for the BNP by any chance?"
"My girlfriend is an Eastern European immigrant (probably from the same country as the author of this article - the feminine surname suffix would indicate as much). She was quite baffled by the furore especially due to the somewhat stupid question ""where are all these Eastern Europeans flocking in from ?"" - er... Africa perhaps ?
However, she also finds it odd that however much vitriol the right-wing press throw at her for her impertinence in legally coming here to work; no-one particularly seems to mind the fact that she's doing a very demanding and difficult job in social care for pretty disgraceful wages.
Oh, and if she wanted to live on benefits; they actually pay for a better standard of living in Prague than they do in London - so she wouldn't actually be here..."
"So who are the indigenous people of Britain? Or are you suggesting that unlike most other countries there is no such thing?
To quote a recent paper published in Prospect magazine:
""The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, after the melting of the ice caps but before the land broke away from the mainland and divided into islands.""
So basically if you are a white Brit the chances are you're lineage goes back thousands of years to people who lived here a very long time ago. Is that 'indigenous' for you? Or are you one of those who think that because we all came from Africa originally only Ethiopians can claim to live in their land of origin?
I think many white Brits are rather fed up of being told that we are such a 'mongrel race' that there is no such thing as indigenous and therefore no such thing as an indigenous culture worth protecting."
"Watching the full, unedited footage of his initial conversation with Gillian Duffy, for the first time ever, I have to say I agree with Gordon
""...all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?""
Er, just a wild guess here, maybe Eastern Europe?
By definition, bigotry is 'stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.' It's a strong word to use, but nonetheless Mrs Duffy's comments and demeanour can still be categorised in this way.
Counting Polish and Spanish nationals who live and work in the UK amongst my closets and dearest friends, I was struck by how quickly, stridently and irrationally Mrs Duffy steered the conversation towards the issue of immigration. Almost as if she would have made the same comments to whomever she happened to meet on the street that day. On this occasion it just happened to be the Prime Minister, followed closely by a camera crew.
Brown's unguarded comments were unfortunate - but only because it paints him as being irritable and two-faced, during an election that is being fought on style over substance. Mrs Duffy's comments were bigoted and Brown is entitled to think so. He's also entitled to say so, and should have done so there and then. But in the glare of the cameras had Brown challenged Mrs Duffy on her views, the press would have no doubt cast him as a 'bully' . He was in a lose-lose situation from the start, and the radio mic gaffe only made things worse.
The fact is, when politicians meet members of the public in spontaneous, unmanaged circumstances such as this, there is always the danger of being shown up. Nonetheless, Brown had the opportunity to stand up for his core beliefs and show Mrs Duffy's comments for what they were - bigoted. Brown would have won many more votes than he would have lost had he done so.
Mrs Duffy had a long career in public service and is entitled to express her opinion. But her opinion is utterly out of step with modern Britain, and our place in the EU. It is an opinion that is carelessly and callously repeated and distorted by the ring wing media. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people in the UK - shiftless, lazy and content to live on on handouts - are so mean-spirited towards hard-working, tax-paying immigrants."
"_AT_maxmimusmanc; I think a lot of people, including those outraged by what brown said, would sympathise with your point about his right to privacy, and to exercising his own prejudices within that context.
or would do if labour hadn't made us the most surveilled country in the free world, and cultivated a culture where people are increasingly liable to police harassment, sacking or even prosecution, for daring to express their thoughts."
"I have just caught up with this article and I am afraid I have not had time to read all the posts, so I must apologise if I duplicate some one else's response.
I would just like to ask Milena Popova how much immigration there has been into Poland these last ten years and how well Poland has coped with it"
"stairlift
""The woman's an OAP who did absolutely nothing wrong. You people are disgusting.""
""OAPs"" can be some of the most obnoxious and vile people you'll ever meet - basically, they are as they always were only a bit older. So no free pass there.
In Mrs Duffy's particular case she said something and plenty of people disagree and plenty of people agree. No one's requested for her to be shot for what she said or anything. Mrs Duffy is allowed her opinion and thoughts - as is everyone else."
"Oh please. Get a grip. Whether you agree that Gillian Duffy is a bigot or not, you should really save your energies for more important matters. This is a liberal and tolerant country with plenty of great people for you to mix with.
I would imagine you're far more like to be alienated for being such a cry-baby rather than an ""immigrant"""
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If I said "What about them East Europeans flocking here?", one of my friends would call me a bigot, what was wrong with what Gordon Brown said?
Like the previous comments say, don't be too disheartened a silent majority are good, well mannered and culturally aware.
"The header at the top of the page says 'Cif at the polls.' Judging from most of the comments here, 'Cif at the Poles' might be a more apt description.
Good piece - interesting perspective."
"FoucaultsNightmare:

The words were bigotted. She chose to say what she did. The words came out of her mouth. That makes her a bigot, in my book.
As DamnWymz says:"
"Well I was born here, and so was my wife (from a refugee family). I feel connected to those that were also born here and expect to take the rough with the smooth in terms of whatever life in the UK has to throw at us. Can we say the same of the many Eastern Europeans that have come here? They used to ""flock"" to Germany until Germany got fed up with them and couldn't find enough jobs for them. Now they ""flock"" here looking for an easier life and a fast buck while abondoning their compatriots. Mrs Duffy has a point about where they are ""flocking"" from too - millions have come here but they clearly don't all come from Poland, unless Poland has a bigger population than we are led to believe. Exactly where are they all coming from? Does the Government know?
Too many people are willing to call anyone that wants to see improved immigration control (and really that is all Mrs Duffy was referring to - she didn't insult those Eastern Europeans that are already here, even if you casually misunderstand the term ""flocking"") a ""bigot"". Fine. If that's what you think then be honest. If people that want to see immigration controlled are by definition ""bigots"" then by definition you must want the UK to have open borders. So be honest about it. Say ""The Labour Party should believe in open borders for the UK"". Shame other countries don't believe the same thing really. We could all upsticks and move to the Seychelles - all 6billion of us."
"Ally, once again my hat goes off to you.
That's the best post ever, from someone who makes a habit of posting the best post ever. I wish I had one tenth of your patience."
"Mrs Duffy was hustled in front of the Great One on the spur of the moment, I doubt whether she had a selection of debating points at hand. She, like thousands of other ""old ladies"" at the bus stop or in the pub simply took a moment to vent.
A savvy politician would have listened, nodded and then, once she had run out of steam picked up on any points worth answering. Instead Brown tried to treat the encounter as if he was at the Dispatch Box and came across badly."
"I blame cowardly politicians who aren't prepared to say to the electorate: 'you have a choice - we can reduce immigration or you can have a pension'.
We need working-age migrants. More please."
For seventy years British politicians were happy to deny the Soviets carried out the Katyn massacre. Mrs Thatcher's government refused to send a representative to the unveiling of the Katyn monument. My father who fought at Monte Cassino like thousands of Polish soldiers under British command was denied not only a British army pension but medical treatment for deafness acquired while serving in the artillery. Polish regiments were forbidden to march on military remembrance parades. The whole of Eastern Europe was surrendered to Soviet occupation at Yalta. Now, at long last a British politician privately stands up for Eastern Europeans and the world collapses around his ears. Gordon Brown, you have just won my vote.
does anyone actually know what the verb 'to flock' means?
"Because (a) she did not say anything bigoted and (b) because Brown is a servant of the people and had no right to label her in that way.
This lady expressed a legitimate concern shared by millions of Britons. Ignorant lefties label such people ""bigots"" and sometimes even ""racists"" for daring to question the lousy immigration policy foisted on them by this utterly dreadful New Labour government.
Then the chattering classes wonder why the BNP is gathering so much support from ordinary, moderate, British voters."
"hey farfetched. last I checked, Prospect was not a journal of human genetics.
If those figures are correct, there's one heckuva lot of inbreeding (homozygosity for you genetics fans) in these islands. Might explain some of these comments"
"Why hasn't anyone said the truth about this?
Since the pound has lost so much of it's value, and since the Polish government (Poles make up a large share of the immigrants) has encouraged skilled workers to return home, Poles have been leaving the UK in droves!
facts are sacred? more like ignorance is sacred....."
Both Gillian Duffy and Milena Popova are expressing feelings that they may honestly hold. Those feelings will be in part, shaped by the extent of their knowledge. I doubt GD is a bigot and I think MP seems a good person too. Isn't it all about communication ?
"If Gillian's kids or grandkids end up emigrating to Oz or anywhere else will they be on the receiving end of bigotted comments - or worse?
Isn't Duffy an Irish name?"
"A few observations from someone in the Netherlands whose partner is an expat Brit.
1. Many people went to the UK to work during the period when the UK was on an idiotic spending frenzy on money noone actually had. The GBP was the highest rated European currency. No wonder people from Eastern Europe came to the UK to work.
2. Mrs. Bigot complained about the fact that there are a lot of Eastern Europeans working in the service industry. Maybe she should ask the question why only people from outside the UK want to work in hotels and restaurants for shitty wages. If the service industry paid better wages, maybe more local people would work there.
3. Apparently everyone in the UK finds it perfectly normal that anyone with a British passport can work anywhere in the EU. A point that Gordon Brown pointed out very well to his credit. You can't have your cake and eat it. If at any point the UK wants to pull out of the EU maybe the EU should close it's borders to migrant workers from the UK.
4. Due to very unfortunate historical circumstances it has taken almost 50 years for the Eastern European countries to finally be able to be part of the EU. I think we should welcome every honest person that wants to work and pay taxes in another country within the EU."
"Surely people prefer knowing what a politician is really thinking rather than all the nicey nicey stuff.
I do."
"Nothing of the sort has been shown. What do you think would happen if migrant workers did not take jobs at the bottom end of the pay scale? Do you think companies would pay more, or do you think they'd be forced out of business by cheaper foreign competition, taking ""British"" jobs with them?
Whether you like it or not, we need migrant workers to compete with other comparative countries using the same labour, and with the developing world. I'm certainly no fan of wage levels for anyone below a decent living standard, but the only ways to prevent it are either fairer, more balanced living standards across the whole world or a dismantling of free-trade capitalism. Simply tinkering with immigration rules will not do it, and any politician who says they will is either an idiot or a liar."
I`m another one of those Polish immigrants: been here since 1945 and now a retired headteacher. And when people say "get used to it" or "get a thicker skin" when I get offended by bigoted and offensive remarks all I can say is that perhaps they need to take their own advice. You are bigots; get used to it
"Gad , I love the Guardian !
Millions of Brits , actually, are illiogical xenophobic Sun readers. How vile they must be ! Thank Gad for we, the enlightened ones, whom can show them the error of their ways by shouting at them a lot.
They will be grateful one day, surely."
"I am a Briton living in Poland.
Most months I earn just under the national average.
I cannot vote in presidential or parliamentary elections.
I am one of a handful of foreigners where I live and I do a job that cannot be done by a local inhabitant.
However, if I was joined by a few thousand other Britons and we started undercutting the local labour market, taking a lot of the unskilled and semi-skilled jobs, I would understand it if the Poles reacted negatively. I would not take it personally unless it was genuinely anti-British xenophobia.
You need to be able to seperate legitimate concern over the effect of open EU borders on communities (both in the UK and places like Poland) from simple xenophobia, which does exist.
From what I have seen, the woman involved in this controversy appeared to express the former and not the latter.
Your comment about 'decaf skinny latte' is revealing. It is exactly the type of peope who would order a 'decaf skinny latte' who benefit from Eastern European immigration. At the risk of making a gross generalisation, I doubt that too many people living on Mrs. Duffy's Rochdale housing estate are frequent imbibers of 'decaf skinny lattes.'"
"A passionate response to something insufficient people consider.
The temptation to ignore people with such odious beliefs, or to assume that they stand alone and are of no meaning, is strong. I don't usually want to be around them long enough to challenge, correct or confront their views. I force myself to do so, however, as silence is all too often taken as agreement. The casual (ignorant) assumptions made about large groups of people are in some ways more dangerous than the actively malicious ones. Malice is far more likely to be noticed and exposed.
So, yes. Gordon Brown called a bigot 'a bigot'. If he'd done it to her face, he'd even get a gold star. If we could move on from the shock of ""PM gets something right"" and start addressing the very real issues this country has, including misconceptions about immigration, I would be very grateful.
Thank you for caring enough to want to explain this to people, and for doing in such a beautifully written way."
"farfetched
""I think many white Brits are rather fed up of being told that we are such a 'mongrel race' that there is no such thing as indigenous and therefore no such thing as an indigenous culture worth protecting.""
To be fair, very few white Brits could actually lay claim to hearing this on a regular basis - that is, it's not like everyday I walk down the street and someone shouts out ""Oi! You - mongrel race boy""
No one has ever questioned my right to be in this country,genetic heritage or anything. (It's possible we have some Eastern European Jewry in my families gene pool - certain there's a bit of Scots in there as well. Do I care? I don't give a flying f*** - who my ancestors shagged 400 or 4000 years ago means nothing to me)
People in, say, Devon can't claim to be ""fed up"" by this, that much, surely? More likely they are ""fed up"" by council tax rises and lack of parking and dog shit on the beach and that kind of real world stuff."
I think the issue with brown is not that he called her bigoted or that he felt that she was bigotted as he is entitled to his opinion but the two faced nature of being friendly to her and even praising her coat and going to call her names straight after. I am an immigrant myself but understand that immigration is an important issue for any elections and is of particular concern with the British today especially following abuse of the social services by some migrants and the employment crisis. Brown's two faced nature would make one query on weather he really cares about people's worries and concerns or if he's just pretending. Sadly though that is the nature of politicians. I think the writer here took things too harsh really. Mrs Duffy did not incite violence against Eastern Europeans and was simply raising her concerns. She seemed to have been satisfied with Gordon's explanation on how the British too migrate and work abroad so I don't think she really meant any harm and was simply raising concerns for her community. In Eastern Europe there is a lot racism against black migrants so I am sure that even the writer recognises that worst concerns exist in their country over migration.
"If you consider the phrase:
""... and what about all these east Europeans, where are they flocking from?""
to be a bigotted remark, you need to get out more. At worst, it's a hypothetical question, perhaps grammatically suspect and undoubtedly geographically illiterate. But bigotted?
Get a life."
I vote labour coz i'm a labourer like me dad and me mam duznt.
Keep your chin up Milena not everyone in this country has the same atitiude as Mrs Duffer. She's obviously forgotten about historical facts like the Polish pilots who flew over British skies during WW2 during the Battle of Britain. That aside though most people in this country have the arrogant view that this island is the centre of civilisation in the world. I knew someone like that they described a Slovakian friend of mine as being from, " A backward country". They are not to be listened to or acknowledged, they are just showing their ignorance of European history and indeed the geographical location of the countries concerned. They don't realise that Bratislava for example is right next to Vienna and is equally steeped in culture. The likes of Mrs Duffy get their impressions of Eastern Europe from anti-communist propoganda from the past and impressions created by British television that the peoples of Eastern Europe are all scuttling about in horses & carts running scared from vampires. So please don't be upset, I think Mrs Duffy has made a bigger fool of herself than Brown ever could.
"_AT_middlenglandlefty; if you call yourself middle england lefty don't be taken aback when people imagine you are a middle england lefty.
as for wage deflation; if you have never watched or read the news over the last 7 years, I am not going to provide a digest service for you.
I suggest you tune into the radio, news bulletins since the incident have featured testaments from people interviewed into the street as to the effect on them.
But as an act of good faith, here is one source - a govt one - pulled off the first page of search results I got.
I haven't got time to read it all myself as I have to go out right now, but the google hit was on a passage talking of wage deflation in segments of the economy where migrants have featured in a substantial way
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/82we14.htm"
"Firstly, look up the words bigot and flocking. She did not cast aspersions on East Europeans or demand that they be sent home (unlike the ghastly BNP), she asked where they were coming from, and the Prime Minister, just like you have done, unjustifiably branded her a bigot for it.
Are you so absorbed in your sense of self-pity that the moment anyone questions whether a surge of hundreds of thousands of workers into the country was a good idea, you label them a bigot and start rambling about how much more of a citizen you are? Does it not occur to you that a pensioner in a northern constituency might not know about the principle of freedom of movement that is central to EU membership, and might be bewildered by a change to the neighbourhood she lives in? Apparently not. Instead you post this awful article, the basis of which seems to be that you aren't getting enough love on the social networks.
And as for your disenfranchisement, you do know that, after being in the UK for a certain period of time, you can apply for citizenship, and with it, the right to vote?"
"_AT_Allyf
(I hate this sort of comment, but ..... )
Very well said."
"I respectfully disagree with you.Bigot was far too strong a word to describe Gillian Duffy.If we call everyone with the slightest zenophobic sentiment a bigot we normalise the words usage and it loses it's power.
What do we call Nick Griffin or historic bigots like George Wallace (Alabama, US) or PW Botha (SA) ? It's a horrible word we should reserve for those who hate.
Mr Brown is deeply two faced he could have disagreed with her.Instead he was laughing and smiling and acting like he liked her and was interested in her family and it's wellbeing.Once he was in his car he ranted away as if she was the devil,he also gave the impression she was dirt and he should not have been made to endure her company.He also blamed it all on his female PA which is common form for him.
You won't find many people having a go at Duffy because Brown has so many more nasty traits than her and is deeply despised in Britain.
I hope you do not find anything else in this election so upsetting."
"I said it yesterday and I'll say it again. I didn't think Brown did that bad talking to her. She left happily enough and although inarticulate she said nothing bigoted. She was merely voicing concerns on a range of issues. This was a non story until Gordon lost the plot.
Brown created this storm because he believed it was a disaster when it really wasn't. At most you could argue he did pretty badly with a woman but did convince her to vote."
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"Wow ! I watched the piece on TV and found nothing untoward about her anxieties.
You must be a very ,very sensitive little flower.
Or is it just another Guardianista defence of Gordon?
Certainly working overtime today at Guardian HQ."
Thank you for writing this. I live in the US, and am married to an immigrant, and he is consistently disheartened at the appalling anti-immigrant sentiment he faces in this country. It's sad to see that things are no better for immigrants in the UK, and I agree that it was ridiculous for Gordon Brown to have to apologize to Ms. Duffy, and terrible that no sensible person could speak up and defend his remark.
Sorry but this a free country and Gillian Duffy is right that we need to deal with Immigration i am sick of left wingers whinning and attacking anyone who has a just concern. It is not racist to want decent border controls for your country . We need a referundum on he EU then we can really start to deal with it. So if you don't like it maybe its time to leave and while you at it could you invite a load of Guardian readers and that annoying Polly Toynbee with you?
Stupid stupid article
"Oh dear, I think this is probably the most pathetic piece I've ever read, online or elsewhere.
I was particularly struck by the idea that the author is angry at the people ""won't stand up to"" Gillian Duffy. The woman is an ordinary member of the public, not a politician or any other kind of public figure, so there is no reason to subject her to any kind of interrogation or thought policing. She happened to be out, buying some bread, and she ended up being asked on camera what she thought about things. She is not some kind of eminence gris, a murky power behind the Labour throne., she is simply a fairly run-of-the-mill person.
Secondly, if anyone seriously thinks that asking ""Where are all the Eastern Europeans flocking from"" is ""unacceptable"" by any criteria other than a dislike of tautology, then 1) who are they to decide what is acceptable? and 2) they are clearly leading very sheltered lives. Go into almost any pub and listen to lower-middle-class or working class white people discussing immigration and you will hear things far less ""acceptable"" than that.
These people are the ones who decide elections; get over it."
That's a list of trades, interestingly a list of trades that I know many people who work in so I can tell you that in Carpentry, Electrical work and Plumbing, the rate has not dropped at all for the tradesmen I know, including my son . Now can you point me to actual evidence that supports the drop in wages in those industries?
"As far as I'm concerned, Gordon Brown's mistake yesterday was to make an utterly spineless apology, instead of standing by his belief. He thought she was bigoted, therefore he was right to be angered by her.
Also, I agree with GuardianGoon."
"_AT_kenbarlow
""Flocking"" - it's when you put up red and gold wallpaper, and the red bit feels all soft and fluffy"
"I'm proud of Gordon Brown. I don't think he needed to apologise.
The more people call out xenophobia and bigotry the less strength it has.
More power to the brave who will stand up to it.
Milena, you're not alone. Don't take it to heart!"
"Yes, maybe she was bigoted. However, if she is a lady who has worked all her life, paid her taxes and then gets piss all for it when she retires wouldn't you be slightly annoyed? I have an immigrant background myself, but it is slightly disgruntling when you come to the realisation that you work for free for the first 10 days of every month and then get taxed on top at every opportunity and still have to pay for the dentist/prescriptions etc etc...whilst a 21 year old and her troop of kids or family from country XYZ have everything for absolutely FREE and work off the books on top!
I also agree that some areas of employment would collapse without immigrants...lets face it a large proportion of immigrants do the work nobody else wants or where ""natives"" are too good for those jobs or just plain lazy. - Everbody thinks they're Posh and Becks Syndrome.
...let alone that all people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect regardless of nationality, citizenship or contribution, would be political suicide.
I agree but lets not ignore the contribution bit in financial terms at least, seen as we have a huge debt hanging over our heads hey, I mean, a vast amount of money is dished out every year for those pesky non-contributors, immigrants and ""natives"" alike.
Yes yes, before all those ""They can't help it if there aren't any jobs and everybody has a right to be a part of society"" people freak out....I'm not attacking the unemployed, I'm talking about those that feign illness, lie about their income, work off the books, go on holiday every year despite no EARNED income, basically those that are just bloody bone idle yet are having a comfortable fully paid for existence!
Sure, everybody has a right to be a part of society, but that doesn't come without responsibility. It shouldnt't be take take take, there has to be some give."
"I was really saddened to read this. I guess among the twittering classes we take a couple of things for granted:
1. Bigoted people are not very intelligent so we don't really take their views seriously - no-one would have felt the need to call it for what it was;
2. In a world where smart people can travel to another country and work there (i.e. any world of the last 10 000 years), less bright people will lose out and politicians really need to listen to them even though there's not really a lot they can do for them. Except maybe improve education and opportunities.
So the real issue people were reacting to wasn't the bigoted comment - that was really background noise, a kind of known constant. It was Brown's failure to call it for what it was. If he had had any personal courage he could have openly had the conversation with her that he probably had later in private - realising that behind the ignorant and uninformed comment there was doubtless a real person with real concerns. If he had had the personal integrity to hold to the same views in public as he expresses in private, he would have shown himself to be the sort of person who could be chosen to lead this country. He didn't so presumably he isn't.
Thanks for the wake-up call. I have many Zimbabwean friends who are here under a range of circumstances and it is all too easy to take their situations and struggles for granted. To forget the lingering pain that even small flashes of prejudice can cause. To assume that they always know what ""we"" already think when one of the uninformed masses starts on the familiar ""they come over here..."" rant. We've simply heard it too many times to hear it."
You obviously haven't been paying attention. Even the Guardian admitted this in an editorial not long ago.
"Yes, maybe she was bigoted. However, if she is a lady who has worked all her life, paid her taxes and then gets piss all for it when she retires wouldn't you be slightly annoyed? I have an immigrant background myself, but it is slightly disgruntling when you come to the realisation that you work for free for the first 10 days of every month and then get taxed on top at every opportunity and still have to pay for the dentist/prescriptions etc etc...whilst a 21 year old and her troop of kids or family from country XYZ have everything for absolutely FREE and have undeclared income on top!
I also agree that some areas of employment would collapse without immigrants...lets face it a large proportion of immigrants do the work nobody else wants or where ""natives"" are too good for those jobs or just plain lazy. - Everbody thinks they're Posh and Becks Syndrome.
...let alone that all people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect regardless of nationality, citizenship or contribution, would be political suicide.
I agree but lets not ignore the contribution bit in financial terms at least, seen as we have a huge debt hanging over our heads hey, I mean, a vast amount of money is dished out every year for those pesky non-contributors, immigrants and ""natives"" alike.
Yes yes, before all those ""They can't help it if there aren't any jobs and everybody has a right to be a part of society"" people freak out....I'm not attacking the unemployed, I'm talking about those that feign illness, lie about their income, work off the books, go on holiday every year despite no EARNED income, basically those that are just bloody bone idle yet are having a comfortable fully paid for existence!
Sure, everybody has a right to be a part of society, but that doesn't come without responsibility. It shouldnt't be take take take, there has to be some give."
"_AT_ JeevanVasagar:
_AT_mattseaton

Christ, that's pretentious. I feel like I've stumbled into a sixth-form poetry club. Matt, I can't believe you're encouraging him.
Here's another angle. Birds are beautiful, delicate creatures, blessed with the gift of flight. Flocking is a communal movement for them. This is a good thing."
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Crikey I thought the whole thing was amusing in general. If there is so much offence taken at a fairly mild rebuke it's a damn good job you can't hear me ranting at my PC screen at some of you lot.
Birds do it, sheep do it, even educated peeps do it, let's do it, let's flock to Rochdale...
"iMark

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Netherlands place restrictions on the amount of Eastern Europeans who could come to work in the Netherlands?"
"I think that Gordon Brown was right to call her a bigot, I personally think that Gordon Brown has shown himself in a good light.
Don't feel to disheartened, I think a silent majority are happy that we live in a multicultural society."
"Milena you qualify for citzenship so why not apply then you'd get to cancel out Mrs Duffy's vote (bit late this time though - sorry. Mind you she said she wasn't going to vote). Or are you asking for votes for economic migrants like yourself?
Like they do in Bulgaria.
Er they do don't they?"
Milena, I do not know from which Eastern European country you hail from, but do you also cry when you see how your gypsies are treated in their own countries by the majority of your people and governments?
"my my - how the spin has worked,,,
may we remind ourselves of the issue at heart here?
it was Dear Leader placating and vote smarming a stated loyal party voter in one breath,,,
then behind her back slagging her off thinking he was out of earshot
it was his blaming of a staff member because he didnt like the way a conversation went when in fact it was a piece of cake
it was his statement of apology on radio of 'IF I said,,,'
it is being caught again being dishonest
that is the issue
not immigration"
"There is a massive difference between the statement 'does polices on immigration have effects' and 'those eastern europeans flocking here where did they come from' . 'You cant say anything about immigrants these days' , thats the language of alf garnet that we all thought we'd left. Talk about the polices, but don't blame the people or infer that they get preferential treatment because they're immigrants.
Then again watching the news it was difficult to actually hear what mrs duffy had said, and I could accept she perhaps would have preferred not to have used those words, so of course we got the press saying ' a woman raised the issue of immigration' and brown called her a bigot.
No, she used language that wouldnt be allowed on tv anymore because it is bigotted and was called a bigot.
We also dont know the conversation that started whilst talking about australia do we?"
"Was it bigoted or just ignorant I'm not sure. But the media bandwagon and twittering that follows was certainly out of order.
More people should stand up for the value incomers bring to the UK (I'm married to one - I would say that). People who begin sentences with ""you can't say anything about..."" should be challenged very hard - the issue isn't whether or not you can say it, but whether or not you should hold that view, spoken or not - Gillian Duffy is the one who needs to go talk to an immigrant.

Be careful of seeming to court a sympathy vote. You came here because it offered something you couldn't get at home (I'm guessing).
Fortunately for you our political system is such that 90% of Brits have ""no voice"" either.
But as far as I am concerned you are welcome to keep flocking here - and if all the bigots could flock off somewhere else, that would be all the better."
"The BNP is getting votes because the issue over lack of housing has been hijacked by the 'YOUCAN'TTALKABOUTIMMIGRATIONWITHOUTBEINGCALLEDRACIST!' lobby in the Tory press and various shock jock radio shows.
The issue is housing and how Labour have perpetuated this lack to fuel the property boom. The anti immigration lobby is one built up by the Tory press to gain them working class votes, in the way anti Semitism and gypsy sentiments have always been used by monarchists and clergy as scapegoat tools. Unfortunately, the BNP capitalizes from it, an undesired outcome for the Tories.."
"Birmingham is the middle of England.
Thanks for providing me with more ammunition, the publication refutes the impact of immigration on wages. Cheers for that."
"The author is either too emotionally sensitive for his own good, or is pretending to be in order to manipulate the feelings of readers.
Being thick-skinned is a good thing, I would think."
"Oh do pull yourself together (stiff upper lip and all that old stick). She didn't express a desire for mass deportation. Don't try and guilt trip the population because they didn't engage in a counselling session with the barrista in Starbucks.
She was expressing a genuine concern of hers, probably exacerbated by reading the Mail or the Express. And there, in front of her is the one man who could give her an answer (of which I thought he did a reasonable job).
Not everybody lives and works in the middle-class well educated liberal left-wing press and you'll probably have to come to terms with that. Next time you are out, why not ask someone about their likes and dislikes of living in Rochdale. Listen. don't judge. And maybe you'll learn something."
The great thing about the global economy is that if you don't like us you can go elsewhere.
"So Gordon was spot on. There are bigoted people out there and some, it seems, have even found their way to CIF.
Ok bigot's, here's my challenge to you: 'Look back at your own family history, and discover where you originated from. Better still, get a DNA test whoch will define, beyond arguement, your continent of origin.
If you think you are 'white British', think again Nimbys ;-)"
"And dig, dig, dig. The Guardian has to pull somebody out to slur Mrs Duffy. I'm surprised Charlie Whelan and Alistair Campbell weren't digging through her past as soon as the first reports of Brown's error came to light.
Not articulate in the ways of metropolitan Guardianistas, maybe. Bigoted, not. Did Mrs Duffy say, all these Eastern Europeans are scum and I hate them and they're no good and they should be sent back? No. She was, in her own flustered way, expressing the view that mass immigration has an impact on resources and that it needs to be addressed (which clearly makes her a bigot in the eyes of most pathetic Guardian readers).
Bigot is one of the most overused words by people who populate this forum; many are akin to Rick in the Young Ones, who shouted ""FASCIST"" at anybody whose views were different to his. Ridiculous. Grow up the lot of you."
This article (and an alarming amount of the comments) are hysterical guff of the same magnitude as the Murdoch media's efforts to make a story out of this in the first place.
Brown's comment on Duffy made me finally warm to him.
This is unfortunately going to be something like the 500th reply, but Milena, you are absolutely right. Like you I'm a long term immigrant, like you I'm European so it's not immediately obvious, and like you I've put a heck of a lot more into Britain than I've got out of it. And like you I'm sick of the lazy slobs who can't look at a problem long enough or deep enough to figure out the real cause but go for the easy blame the immigrant option. And I'm sick of the attitude that I need permission to have an opinion on something happening in what is now my country. I'm abroad at the moment so I've missed the full force of this storm in a teacup but it seems to me that the lady in question was complaining about some failures of social services, yet, despite the fact the guy who has held the nation's purse strings for the last 13 years and is thus responsible for much of what she was complaining about was stood in front of her, she launched out on East European immigrants, presumable because in her mind they were to blame. So, Milena, if you ever get an apology from La Duffy, you will let us know?
"""Yesterday I stared alternately at my screen and keyboard in complete and utter paralysis, while inside I was raging. At one point I actually genuinely broke down in tears and great heaving sobs.""
Mmmm, This scenario might well be played out again at future point in the story of immigration to this country. Ms Popova has just been advised that her job has been given to a Rumanian at half the salary. Where indeed will they be flocking from in ten years time ? Even less when the financial disaster that this country faces really kicks in.
However benign you may feel about embracing all these hardworking, affable folk who are permitted by EU law to come to these shores there is a limit to the elasticity of our social space and social services and my concern is also for the million or so British youngsters who with a period of severe austerity looming will probably never find work nor be able to reciprocate and take up employment in other countries.
Gordon Brown used this emigration quid pro quo to ease Gillian's Duffy concerns, not to any great effect as we could see. It would have been more to the point if Ms Duffy had also mentioned the million illegals who not having the benefit of an EU passport will be sent back (if they are ever found, of course) And if Clegg gets his hands on a lever or two they will all be home and dry.
Don't blame Gillian Duffy for the problems for the madness of Labour's immigration policy, the outbursts from her and Brown were a were the direct result of of them. Brown says British jobs for British people, then we get the results in. Immigrants take 81% of new jobs.
Immigration has been the most important feature of the last 13years and the least discussed. Labour broke the most basic rule of the democratic process: the electorate was never told it was voting for that.
So Ms Popova forgive us if you appear to have been thrown in at the deep end,
as with the Lisbon Treaty and scores of other policies this country or at least many parts of it are hurt, bewildered and damn right annoyed that this shambles of a government is about to depart office with such a mess on the carpet."
"My boyfriend was deported this week. He had been working here and paying tax and national insurance, and had never claimed, or even attempted to claim, a single benefit from the state. Eventually, after much battling, he was denied leave to remain here.
The tax that he had paid was spent on the legal battle that the Home Office had with him to make him leave, on the flight they unecessarily paid for for him to go home as they decided he hadn't managed to leave quickly enough himself, and on the few days before his flight that he spent inhumanely locked in an immigration detention centre with no warning and not even any clean clothes after they'd decided, with no justification, that he might abscond - which he wasn't going to do. Given that there had been no flights for the previous week due to the ash cloud and the final decision that he had to leave was only made the week before, I'm not sure how he could have left of his own accord really, even if he didn't have several years of his life to pack up and ship cross-continent.
I will probably never see him again and I will miss him desperately. He has only ever been a contributor to society, and that contribution was entirely wasted because he was an easy target to remove in their pre-election box-ticking exercise. You hear complaints about how much tax-payer's money is spent on removing unwanted immigrants, but I have direct experience that much of this is entirely wasted. If my boyfriend had been allowed to finish packing and leave voluntarily, he'd have done so with dignity and it would have cost them several thousand pounds less in the process. It's futile, and it ruins the lives of British citizens like me as well as the immigrants who no one seems to want here, but who often give more to our society than many home-grown people who haven't been brought up with the same work-ethic.
Thanks for writing this article. The 'bigots' seem to forget that these are 'people' as well as 'immigrants'."
Or is this the beginning of the " blackening" of Mrs Duffys name by a labour spin machine.?
Go back to your Daily Mail comic.
Well said. Bigotry is bigotry, whether held by the populace or elites.
I wouldn't worry yourself about it too much Milena, and don't take it all so personally. Identity and nationality are just ideas; people have been complaining about 'hoards, swarms, or floods of immigrants' since the year dot, since before the media started spinning it to score points and sell copy , and not just in the UK. Most people who claim to be a 'real' Brit have no idea of their own family history- I've got a British passport but a Russian great-grandmother, French grandfather and my Dad's family is Scottish... not saying I'm special. In fact, it's probably completely unexceptional. If we all did a bit of digging, we'd find that our ancestors come from all over and have been mixing genes for centuries with abandon. Elections and times of economic uncertainty bring out the worst in everyone- and zenophobia is the kneejerk reaction of the uncomprehending. Meanwhile, ordinary folk will carry on regardless, as always.
This is unfortunately going to be something like the 500th reply, but Milena, you are absolutely right. Like you I'm a long term immigrant, like you I'm European so it's not immediately obvious, and like you I've put a heck of a lot more into Britain than I've got out of it. And like you I'm sick of the lazy slobs who can't look at a problem long enough or deep enough to figure out the real cause but go for the easy blame the immigrant option. And I'm sick of the attitude that I need permission to have an opinion on something happening in what is now my country. I'm abroad at the moment so I've missed the full force of this storm in a teacup but it seems to me that the lady in question was complaining about some failures of social services, yet, despite the fact the guy who has held the nation's purse strings for the last 13 years and is thus responsible for much of what she was complaining about was stood in front of her, she launched out on East European immigrants, presumable because in her mind they were to blame. So, Milena, if you ever get an apology from La Duffy, you will let us know?
She could have done this after 6 years. So it's a bit rich to complain.
"Edmund
""as an aside, isn't it blackly comic that the sorts who once ranted about 'on yer bike' tebbit, now effectively argue that any working class person unhappy about their earnings being decimated, should get on a fecking plane.
come the revolution; the middle class left will be first against the wall.""
But plenty of working class people have got on a plane.
What do you want government to do about it?
Come the revolution the working classes will burn down TESCOS, O RLY? This'll be the same working classes who flock to Tescos, will it?
There will be no revolution*. There will be more TESCOS
*at least not until after any total global collapse has made national governments irrelevant."
"Secondly, Brown did not accuse her of being a bigot to her face, he did it in private. Because, contrary to what these people say, the truth is that you CAN'T accuse an anti immigration sentiment holder of being a bigot, you have to nod in sympathy and gently agree with them, especially with the Sky journalists in tow (if you're a politician).
Knowing how Brown feels privately has actually endeared him to me, although I still think New Labour are a bunch of ****s"
"The other thing I don't think the author gets is that Gordon Brown did stick up to her, he mentioned that there are also British people staying abroad.
For him to just go and insult her for what I personally didn't find a very bigoted comment, that would be bigotry, not being prepared to countenance or discuss a view different from your own is the definitition of bigotry.
As for this 'flocking' crap, just because the literal translation of something is insulting doesn't mean the word in the common understanding is. People who think Gordon Brown is a twat, don't literally mean he's a vagina with legs and people who say flocking in relation to immigration aren't describing immigrants as animals."
"This is exactly the kind of patronising, nanny-knows-best-and-your-a-bigot-if-you-disagree attitude about immigration that is alienating Labours core vote.
If you think it is just indigenous 'bigoted' whites that are concerned about immigration, think again.
Up until about a year ago, I had fallen for this rubbish, hook line and sinker. Concerns about immigration=bigotry.
Now I recognise it for what it is.
A deliberate and calculated attempt to create a thought crime."
And it it those very same people that are vehemently in favour of mass immigration. So explain to me how it came to be that the so-called "liberal left" came to be on the same side as big business and the banks?
"You're having a laugh right?
Why is it that the opinions and feelings of the liberal left appear to have more importance than others? They espouse equality and inclusiveness, but it seems that this inclusiveness only extends to things that they agree with.
An ordinary person espousing an honestly-held view by asking a question, inciting no-one to do anything, discriminating against no-one. She asked about the number of eastern European migrants coming to the UK but, at no time, did she give her reasons for asking.
Even if she is a bigot, even if, why is she not allowed to hold a view that you may not agree with?
Some people find it bigoted for you to believe that fox-hunting is right. Some people think it bigoted for you to believe that fox-hunting is wrong. Just because somebody disagrees with you, does not make them a bigot.
Having an opinion is not criminal, people should not be demonised for what they honestly believe, even if you find their beliefs distasteful.
One day, your own liberal views may become very unfashionable and see you demonised for holding them. Whilst they seem perfectly reasonable to you, they may be ""off-message"" to those in power and then you've got a bit of a problem. Look at the Stalinist USSR, or Nazi Germany if you want examples.
Have enough confidence in your own views that you can accept the fact that others may not share those views - otherwise this persecution and demonising of ""non-believers"" is the thin end of a wedge. Whatever happened to ""even if I disagree with what you say, I will fight with my life for your right to say it"".
The only ""bigots"" here are those who seek to demonise this woman for asking a question. It was they who presumed the intent - and the mindset - behind the question, an intent never stated by Gillian Duffy.
My point is that if we are truly liberal, truly inclusive, and seeking true equality then this equality extends to tolerating beliefs which we may not like, much less agree with.
Otherwise, we are just totalitarian fascists who clothe ourselves in liberalism - the worst kind of all."
No, its the other side of the coin, not everyone agrees with you.
By so much you mean a couple of percent presumably? UKIP and BNP have barely registered a flicker in this election.
"This whole controversy is ridiculous, as is your article. If you did ""actually genuinely break down in tears and great heaving sobs"" purely because a woman asked where Eastern Europeans are flocking from then I don't think you should give the Guardian permission to put your blogs on CIF.
What she asked wasn't bigoted. You (and Gordon Brown) could be excused for assuming she is bigoted. It wouldn't surprise me if she was. But just because she was concerned with immigration you break down and cry? You need thicker skin my dear.
Brown shouldn't have apologised. We've all said bad things about people we've just met and didn't actually mean. Especially when under pressure or facing hostility. He didn't mean to say it to her face. It's just the media trying to make a big thing out of something the vast majority don't really give a shit about.
I realise this might be coming across slightly hostile, but I don't mean to be personal or rude. I would feel guilty if you cried."
"I sympathise with the article. According to the last research i saw on this, immigrants tend to be net contributors to our economy, not the spongers that some would claim. And if one is a hard-working, higher-rate taxpaying, EU citizen living in the UK, it must be pretty galling to be regularly characterised in the media as being unwanted, illegal, etc etc etc.
But I don't think it helps to call Mrs D a bigot. Governments have consistently failed to explain the benefits of immigration. more importantly, mainstream politicians have been too up themselves to really engage with those in our poorer communities and demonstrate that they have any particular interest in their welfare. So the field is left open to the far right, who start by addressing real local issues that are apparently being ignored, and move on the nurture and inflame the myths - ""blacks get all the housing"" - ""they're stealing our jobs"" - we're overrun with illegal asylum seekers"" - and so on and so forth. So I don't like Mrs D's views much, but she almost certainly holds them through a combination of bewilderment and concern, not because she's a bigot in the sense that I understand the term."
Many Brits who speak poor English,and choose not to work could learn much from our European friends.
"MEL
One Labour ""worker"" already tried to start a rumour that Mrs Duffy was paid by the Sun.
If I were you I would be quiet on the subject. The dirty tricks started the moment Brown was told about his gaffe."
"Oh come on, let's not pretend that ""flocking"" wasn't meant in a derogatory way. Much of the immigration debate is just code for a dislike of ""foreigners"" and especially those of other races.
This article is spot on. None of the political parties have had the courage to stand up to the anti-immigration lobby with facts about contribution to the economy, that most migrants can't access benefits and so on. There's no mention of the importance of flexible labour, skill levels, net cost/benefit or the any other factor to judge whether immigration is a good or a bad thing, but rather just a blind pandering to the ""there are too many of them"" brigade.
Throughout history elements of societies have always sought scapegoats during times of austerity or hardship and they have usually been minorities and immigrants, so here we are during a recession playing ""blame the immigrant"" and no-one has the courage to stand up to this rubbish.
Furthermore, how many English people live and work in Europe and or abroad? You can't have it both ways you know!
This woman may not be in the league of Nick Griffin, she may not even be racist particularly, but she is spouting an uninformed form of bigotry at best and the lack of criticism of that view is a shame."
"_AT_RichardPlantagenet
So by nature of coming from a less than perfect society, Milena relinquishes the right to respond to prejudice?
Presumably the only views you value are the ones of people like you. There's a word for that."
"Kerrygold
I think you will find that in most of Eastern Europe free speech is in FAR better shape than it is the UK. Your views are outdated by at least a decade. If you think you are experiencing free speech here - think again. What you say is acceptable now here as long as it is middle of the road. You have been successfully duped as have most people. Read 1984 (and weep)"
Many Brits who speak poor English,and choose not to work could learn much from our European friends.
"_AT_AllyF:

You clearly can't understand her feeling hurt at all, can you?
I normally rate your views, but you are right out of order here. And courting the popular vote.
She's entitled to a view without being sworn at by you. Get out from up yourself."
Bully for you. So do I, but then I'm actually British so I don't expect a special pat on the back just because I work and pay tax. You say it like the fact that you do makes you exceptional and that most Eastern Europeans don't. Interesting little slip there.
What a great piece - thanks so much for writing it.
"Do the sums.
The government spends 700 bn. About 12,000 pounds per person.
So unless you earn a lot of money, far above the average, you are going be in the negative when it comes to being a financial benefit to the UK.
The transition point for a single person is 44,000 pounds a year according to http://listentotaxman.com/index.php.
So unless you earn more than this, and have no dependents, then you contribute more than you cost as an individual.
However, if you push someone on to benefits, then the cost goes up. You not only need to support your share, but their cost too.
Now that's also without factoring in the illegal immigration. They aren't paying tax, they are working in the 'alternative' economy. Whilst their consumption of state goods might be less (No benefits), they still have an impact in that they compete with people with low skills.
So what this means to me, is the threshold for being an immigrant has to be earning 44K a year minimum. There also needs to be a rule that no benefits unless you have paid in for 5 years. I would also apply this to UK nationals.
Nick"
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"Milena, for me, this is not about you, not about Eastern Europeans or immigrants.
It is just the moment when Gordon Brown has been caught out being 2 faced."
"Spent some time talking about ""bigotgate"" with workmates this lunchtime at work, and basically everyone agreed with what you say in this article. The woman is an ignorant bigot like so many other British people.
One of my colleagues is married to a polish lady, and he said that she felt pretty much how you describe when she heard that Brown had made a grovelling apology to a bigoted woman. What she said was ill-informed and paid no heed to the contribution that many immigrants make to the UK economy and society. Many British people are lazy and would certainly refuse to take some of the jobs that immigrants do because of their sense of entitlement.
I don't twitter very often, but I hope that if I'd been on there last night I would have supported you!"
Yes we English are a bunch of wazzocks aren't we Milena: but I invite you to go and do the same to the northern Irish or the Scots or the Welsh. You won't because you value a whole skin. You take our salt and then you abuse us: what does that make you?
"Spent some time talking about ""bigotgate"" with workmates this lunchtime at work, and basically everyone agreed with what you say in this article. The woman is an ignorant bigot like so many other British people.
One of my colleagues is married to a polish lady, and he said that she felt pretty much how you describe when she heard that Brown had made a grovelling apology to a bigoted woman. What she said was ill-informed and paid no heed to the contribution that many immigrants make to the UK economy and society. Many British people are lazy and would certainly refuse to take some of the jobs that immigrants do because of their sense of entitlement.
I don't twitter very often, but I hope that if I'd been on there last night I would have supported you!"
"_AT_captainquark1

Of course she's ""allowed"" to hold it, but it doesn't mean it should be treated with deference. Obnoxious views should be challenged.
If she is a bigot, why is Gordon Brown not allowed to say so?"
"Well done for writing this. This is the only thing I have read or heard confirming what I thought about the story in the first place.
It's a shame that Brown had no choice but to retract his statement, and it's a bigger shame that the mainstream news has given absolutely no alternative opinion (such as yours) on the matter.
Hopefully this article will give people, immigrants and non-immigrants, the courage to speak up in support of your argument."
"Proof?
Most Labour response has been to apologise."
"What we may see in the future (not this election but further down the line) is some serious swinging to the right across Europe and an attempt to return to past glories, real or imagined.
As an example, in the future it may become harder for EU citizens to move around freely simply because politicians will have come to power promising to curb these rights.
""Build walls"" will cry the masses (possibly mostly older voters) and the politicians will build walls.
The wealthier Europeans will navigate these walls and barriers easily enough.
I don't know what the answer is as the entire process might simply be an inevitable consequence of human beings living on Earth. Shit happens, chaos reigns and eventually everything must collapse - entropy.
It's a shame we can't run really, really detailed simulations and see which paths and choices work out best for most of us, most of the time.
For sure, there are winners and losers in all systems. A lot of people claim to think the English only ever lose but there are actually plenty of English winners who haven't done too badly over the past few years,
Mandy wants a government that guarantees her a decent level of state benefits
Mindy wants to know why Mandy ""Has it so good."" and wants a government that guarantees to crack down on Mandy."
Well said, and I'm sorry you need to say it. There is a huge well of bigotry in this country, and the reason why politicians, especially on the left, are afraid to talk about immigration is that they do not want that voice, that bigoted, privileged, English voice, heard.
Well said, and I'm sorry you need to say it. There is a huge well of bigotry in this country, and the reason why politicians, especially on the left, are afraid to talk about immigration is that they do not want that voice, that bigoted, privileged, English voice, heard.
"Maybe you should reconsider the party you support if you dislike the type of people that make up its 'core vote'
Also a shame that Brown felt he couldn't stand up for you in public, imagine if he hadn't had the microphone on, you would have listened to her 'bigoted comments' and seen him smiling getting in the car saying lovely person."
"History's strange: When the first wave of eastern European immigrants came to Britain it was actually because the other eastern Europeans didn't want them there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire"
"The whole episode,like this article is an over reaction.For a start The author is not an immigrant, sounds like she's a succesful woman in a high paid job with a good standard of living.
I suggest she spares a few tears for real immigrants,those who have fled real persecution,those Thousands of people, who along with their children are arrested,and transported and held in detention centres where they suffer real phycological damage."
"Her comments were bigoted. But people only want to moan at Brown (I'm not voting for Labout, by the way).
And what about how much more beautiful the UK is now we have all the Czech, Polish and Slovak ladies here? This is important, god damn it."
"I am so glad you posted this, I do not Twitter but we were discussing this in Uni this morning and came to the same conclusion, she was a bigote and she should not be the one getting the sympathy vote.
If anything this has strengthened my resolve that I will most likely be voting labour in this election for the first time, mainly because of Gordon Brown.
I think more people should have the guts like yourself to stand up to Ms Duffy."
"Polish pilots died in disproportionately high numbers fighting for the RAF in the Battle of Britain. Then Britain did almost nothing to help Poland in the Warsaw Uprising. If the Poles and other east Europeans now want to help our economy by providing diligent hard-working people and preventing wage inflation, I certainly amn't going to argue.
Meanwhile, one has to have a pretty slanted view of the world to think the influx of hard-working eastern Europeans has made Rochdale worse. Having been there a few times many years ago, I know it was a hole well before the Berlin Wall fell.
I just wish Gordon Brown had defended immigrants publicly."
How many of them live in Rochdale?
Fantastic post by Ally
"MEL
That is the most stupid thing I have ever read."
"Another thing, Milena.
For you to be so massively affected, you must have either been tremendously surprised, or felt this was the straw that broke your camel's back...
Which one was it?
I.e. Have you in all your years in the UK basically never previously come across negative feeling or comments directed at you as an E. European?
(this would be quite a tribute to the tolerant atmosphere of the UK)
or
Have you been previously tremendously aware of anti-you or generally anti-E. European attitudes? You don't speak about this. So I don't know.
I know lots of Czechs (and other E. E.s) who have worked in the UK, in positions from menial to managerial - I know some who have stayed there. They have all kinds of comments and reactions, some enthusiastic, some less so...but most feel they have not seriously been targetted (disempowered?) by anti-immigrant or racist passions among the Brits. Most compare the UK favourably with their own country in that respect, while some paradoxically illustrated the point by confessing to finding the UK too ""multicultural"" for their conventional E. E. tastes.
What disturbs me a little is that you seem to have absorbed a particular Brit progressive fault - which is hysterical reaction to criticism of immigrants or immigration...a reaction that goes far beyond the bounds of realism.
E.g. I had a weird conversation in England when visiting a month back.
A friend of mine (a therapist) was talking about how a client of hers had been racially abused at his place of work. I agreed that it sounded awful, that complaints should be made etc... But then my friend, very impassioned, said didn't I think it was just indescribably, incredibly awful...just utterly utterly unbelievable that this could happen in 21st-century Britain? Bad yes, I said, but surely not incredible...
She rounded on me, almost tears in eyes, and accused me of being a racist -..
""WTF?"" I protested - ""all I said was I didn't find the story ""incredible"""" (her use of this word did not indicate her non-belief in the event, but the desire to shroff up the shock/horror to the nth degree). In the ensuing row I realised that my sin had lain in appearing to consider the matter soberly, as a start on a discussion of reasons for racist sentiment and its persistence in specific cases...while what had been expected of me was a sort of ritual chanting and correct quantum of intoxicated fury and consternation....
""I pity the poor immigrant"" sang my idol Dylan, but it is odd to me how the perfectly reasonable business of standing up for immigrants who are vulnerable in society has turned in some quarters into the Holy Church of Immigration, in which all immigrants (even middle-class white professional ones like Milena) are regarded and encouraged to regard themselves as saviours of the nation, liable to be martyred by the evil forces of the white working class or the ""political culture"": so anyone who even while being antiracist fails to adopt the right religiose tone is suspected of heresy. Here it would be ""Oh God I can't BELIEVE that someone like that Duffy woman could EXIST, or that Gordy could apologise...Incredible incredible appalling - no don't try explaining it cos that makes it less INCREDIBLY UNBELIEVABLE...and INCREDIBLY UNBELIEVABLY HURTFUL AAAARGH...
It's this mentality that is earning Ally - none could be more antiracist than Ally - unmerited denunciations on this thread for what was a good honest post.
This certainly doesn't ""silence"" people, but it does bugger up communications..."
"My, there DO appear to be a large number of posters with little to no previous posting history queueing up here today to call Gillian Duffy a bigot.
The Labour spin machine is obviously in overdrive.
Keep a close eye on this folks, this is what it feels like to be thrown to the wolves."
"Quite agree, Mili. We have a political caste that doesn't have the backbone to hold principles on camera. Up until the numbskulls at the banks wrecked the economy, the Eastern European immigrants were responsible for a large part of the boom we enjoyed for 5 or 6 years. Contrast their humility and hard work for barely more than minimum wage with the continuing arrogant self-regard of the bankers, who still think that skimming a mark-up on financial transactions and betting as a herd entitles them to supersalaries.
No doubt in this evening's ""leaders'"" debate we'll see more vacuous support for freedom, fairness and similar abstract nouns they know they can't be measured by or judged upon."
"The whole episode,like this article is an over reaction.For a start The author is not an immigrant, sounds like she's a succesful woman in a high paid job with a good standard of living.
I suggest she spares a few tears for real immigrants,those who have fled real persecution,those Thousands of people, who along with their children are arrested,and transported and held in detention centres where they suffer real phycological damage."
"Really if you are going to complain about the ""anti-immigration lobby"", then you should get your facts straight.
Anyone from Europe who has paid into national insurance qualifies for the exact same benefits as a UK worker. That means if the immigrant worker is low paid then he or she WILL be supported through tax credits, housing benefits etc. after around 2 years. There is therefore no point whatsoever importing such a person when the job could be done by someone here until he/she earns over around £24k a year and makes a net tax contribution. People like Milena are not the issue here and never have been.
This is EU law and I can't see how you can argue it any other way."
I suppose there are bigots in every country. It doesn't make this one any better - and GB should not have given in and apologised for anything other than forgetting to remove the mic. He could've said publicly that he was sorry for broadcasting the truth, I suppose.
"MEL
Look it up on the BBC."
"Nothing that was said by that women was bigoted. Relative to average rates of immigration to this country, the accession of Eastern European countries led to a large influx of people. In that context, the term ""flock"" seems apposite. It implies nothing derogatory. Brown did try to counter her contention that the rates of immigration were too high, pointing out that more UK citizens live in Europe than vice versa. The problem with Miss Duffy was just that she was fucking annoying. Unable or willing to listen, convinced of her own ideas, squawking with unintelligent certainty. Politician's need to deal with people like this throughout election campaigns. I admire Brown's reaction, i really do. Compared to my likely reaction to having a woman like that shoved in my path, it was polite, muted and wholly uncontroversial. After an encounter where i had, and he had to, bite my tongue and appear apologetic and friendly during such treatment, i would have given the responsible aide a swift punch in the throat and called Mrs. Duffy far worse than bigoted, haha. In my experience that is a rather commonplace human failure, necessary for a functioning society.
In the context of the treatment of immigrants, it says nothing. People are well within the bounds of civility to feel that there are too many new people arriving in the country. They are wrong but they are not bigots. Upon consideration of her comments, if you want to genuinely believe and state that they make her a bigot then I hope you are content to see the millions of Mrs Duffy up and down this country nestle in the bosom of the BNP."
"MiddleEnglandLefty
29 Apr 2010, 3:14PM
thfc123
29 Apr 2010, 3:08PM
MEL
One Labour ""worker"" already tried to start a rumour that Mrs Duffy was paid by the Sun.
If I were you I would be quiet on the subject. The dirty tricks started the moment Brown was told about his gaffe.
Proof?
Most Labour response has been to apologise
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a pity in that case that most Labour supporters on cif feel the need to attack Mrs Duffy"
"saarfy
""Bully for you. So do I, but then I'm actually British so I don't expect a special pat on the back just because I work and pay tax""
A lot of Daily Mail readers do, to be fair.
""You say it like the fact that you do makes you exceptional and that most Eastern Europeans don't. Interesting little slip there.""
Where's the slip?
If British people say stuff like: ""They only come over here to claim benefits cos we're a soft touch"" then the grafters and tax payers might feel a need to defend themselves.
As she says:
""A desperate need to justify myself.""
Because some people probably wonder if she eats all our swans. Or - ""Why the f**k is she here? Why do they all come here? Why don't they piss off back to where they came from?"""
"And indeed why didn't he say so ?
Possibly because she's not and he'd have ended up looking rather silly ?
Instead - he got into his car, muttering about the bloody proles, making up insults on the spot."
"Labour opened the door to mass Eastern European workers in order to provide a large pool of cheap, compliant, available drones to suppress demands from the lowest classes of workers for more pay, better conditions, childcare etc.
In other words , they were, and are, a tool to keep the lower orders in their place and under the authoritarian thumb.
That you believe that Mrs Duffy should somehow be grateful to you for keeping herself and the rest of her class in servitude shows your contempt for the 'rights' of anyone but yourself."
"What a strange overreaction.
Whilst I'm sure you've exaggerated it for effect - ""My Mild Reaction to Gillian...."" wouldn't be half as exciting - it's still totally bizarre.
If you're this oversensitive I'm very surprised that you ever managed to leave home and get a job in another country. I hope nothing truly serious ever happens to you - it sounds like you wouldn't be able to cope."
"Yeah, that happens.
Why don't you poodle along to the UK border agency website sometime to check the facts about who can come to the UK?

... so you see, you cannot just move to the UK and get everything free. You need to work or have your own money to support yourself. Myth: Busted."
"I agree. She was spouting bigoted material, whether it's her real view or she's been somehow 'tainted by the media' and just repeating things without thinking them through doesn't really matter, she was.
Murdoch has made a meal of it, totally overshadowing the real issues, but who's apologised to you, and other Eastern Europeans, or for that matter other immigrants of any nationality??
From some of the posts above, there seem to be a lot f bigots about today, and that is a sad state of affairs for this country."
"_AT_LordSummerisle

Thanks for pointing that out, LSi, because I have been in shock since yesterday at the vilification of that woman by so many on these threads.
The accounts are obviously all being set up by Millbank, or wherever it is that the Labour media bunker is situated these days. Shameful."
"They have stated their opinion, that her comments sounded bigoted to them, they have not stated that they are labour supporters, indeed many have said they dislike labour and think she is a bigot.
This is the hilarity of the right's position. ""We want free speech"" ""But you leftys better keep quiet and not challenge us"""
"Milena. There are two seperate issues here, firstly was Mrs Duffy being a bigot? The answer is clearly no. She may be a bigot but there is no evidence of that in her exchange with Brown. Having some concerns about the scale of immigration, Eastern European or otherwise, does not in itself make an individual a bigot. Being unwilling to discuss it and calling those that do wish to do so 'bigots' does however. So it's Gordon Brown, not Mrs Duffy who has shown himself up as a 'bigot'; despite his claims to wish to discuss immigartion he clearly wants to ignore the topic.
The second issue is your reaction. Why would you be taken aback and so upset that many British people do not welcome the arrival of enormous numbers of Eastern Europeans? Do you really think that all Eastern Europeans would welcome huge numbers of Turks, Romanians, Russians or Chinese arriving in your countries? I suggest that not only would they be hostile, but considerably less willing to treat those people fairly than is the average British person. The racism of Eastern Europeans towards black football players even is notorious!"
"LordSummerisle
29 Apr 2010, 3:24PM
My, there DO appear to be a large number of posters with little to no previous posting history queueing up here today to call Gillian Duffy a bigot.
The Labour spin machine is obviously in overdrive.
Keep a close eye on this folks, this is what it feels like to be thrown to the wolves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed Lord S , i have noticed this vast swath or flock of random new posters over the last few days , it is even worse on the BBC website"
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"Interesting - no comments?
I sometimes wonder how we would feel if we found out that our citizens in other countries around the world where described 'as flooding in', 'taking jobs' etc etc?
Immigration is an easy target for politicians because in most cases no-one dare defend it, even the businesses that benefit. Gillian Duffy is a pensioner and god forbid she gets old enough to have to live in a pensioner's home or need long term care in her 'old' age. She will be thankful for immigration then!"
Priviliged? You mean the people that are thrilled with the fact that they can get Eastern European nannies for a pittance, and love the fact that it is a Polish girl that serves them their overpriced "skinny latte" instead of a British girl with a working-class accent? The privileged people are the last ones who would be against mass immigration, as is evidenced by the outpourings here. Go to a newspaper whose readership is somewhat less privileged, and you will hear a far different story.
Yes, Milena, I agree with you! Thank you!
"The woman isn't a bigot, she's an old age pensioners who deserves some respect.
The area she grew up in has probably changed beyond all recognition - people speak languages she doesn't understand, shops stock food she can't pronounce let alone eat etc. These are unsetting for an old person unused to change.
None of the political parties have ever taken the trouble to explain to her these changes, and why there can be positive effects, like extra nurses for the NHS as just one example, they just call her a bigot and shout her down. They don't live in places where some of the negative effects of immigration are felt too - increased competition for jobs and services, lower wages, changing culture, and the right wing press and both major political parties have been more than happy to play on her understandable fears and not counter the arguments of the racists and bigots.
Yesterday, Gordon Brown got his just desserts for his part in this tragedy - he's been happy to court tabloid bigotry with catchy slogans 'British jobs for British workers' etc, and he and the tabloids have spent years turning poor people and minorities against each other. It's always the fault of immigrants or asylum seekers, single mothers, or benefit cheats, all to distract people from the real villains - bankers, corporations, and the politicians themselves, happily gorging on the public trough while simultaneously mismanaging the economy.
Mrs Duffy isn't a bigot, and she isn't your enemy or deserving of your enmity. Save that for the politicians and the media who primed her complaints and exploited her wholly understandable fears for the future in such uncertain times."
"What this incident has shown is that large swathes of the population have no idea what a bigot is.
Mrs Duffy may or may not be a bigot. There is, however, no basis for calling her a bigot in what she said yesterday.
The people who assume she's a bigot based on the one, garbled, question she asked Brown yesterday on the other hand... why must she be a bigot? Because she's a northern pensioner who asked about Eastern European immigrants, and, well, they're all bigots aren't they? Is that what you think?
Seems you might be the ones with prejudices there."
The problem is not Duffys but those left wingers that wanted to change the make up of society in the hope that the newer people in the country would vote for them and so maintain them in office. The problem was no one in power asked the people if this is what they wanted. Gordon has helped the BNP more than those racist idiots could have dreamed of doing themselves. Next time Gordon think about the people you represent not just your own narrow self interest.
Because you are part of it. The lie is that immigration is not allowed to be discussed, I proved that it is discussed ad nauseam and that the gutter press have banner headlines attacking immigrants every week. This double myth that immigration is taboo, whilst immigrants are attacked without redress IS the political correctness of the right, or is your mind so closed you can't grasp the paradox?
In what other country are British people 'flooding in' and 'taking jobs the locals don't WANT to do'?
"Duffy said nothing offensive.
She is not a bigot.
She's an old lady struggling to come to terms with massive changes in the social fabric of her country. She asked cogent questions about finance, Uni fees and such like as well as immigration. It might have been nice if Brown had helped explain to her the realities and benefits of the EU open market helped reassure her that all of these changes are not per se 'Bad'. But he ran away and then insulted the woman...for no reason!
Your whining reaction is PRECISELY why the subject of Immigration is so taboo.It seems we are not allowed to discuss immigration because you will start weeping and wailing and sobbing and feel all disenfranchised? A few words from a member of the white working class and you deem her a nasty bigot .
You are so pretentious and precious you veer towards the hysterical.
I found your diatribe quite amusing actually..... the sobbing, the wailing, the anger... all of it very very amusing.... and sadly pathetic..."
"_AT_kenbarlow
You now appear to be applying the author's defence to a whole bunch of things Mrs Duffy didn't say."
I find it hilarious that citizens of the commonweatlh (but not EU citizens) can vote in this election.
"MiddleEnglandLefty
29 Apr 2010, 3:29PM
Ghostworld
29 Apr 2010, 3:26PM
MiddleEnglandLefty
29 Apr 2010, 3:14PM
thfc123
29 Apr 2010, 3:08PM
MEL
One Labour ""worker"" already tried to start a rumour that Mrs Duffy was paid by the Sun.
If I were you I would be quiet on the subject. The dirty tricks started the moment Brown was told about his gaffe.
Proof?
Most Labour response has been to apologise
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a pity in that case that most Labour supporters on cif feel the need to attack Mrs Duffy
They have stated their opinion, that her comments sounded bigoted to them, they have not stated that they are labour supporters, indeed many have said they dislike labour and think she is a bigot.
This is the hilarity of the right's position. ""We want free speech"" ""But you leftys better keep quiet and not challenge us""
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With all due respect mate they have been a lot more vicious and downright nastier than that ..... Come on Middle we both know that the vast vast majority of the negative comments against Mrs Duffy are from Labour apologists
What precisely do you mean "" the rights position "" ? ....What i find amusing about your comment here is that it is YOUR party who has done the most damage to free speech"
"Maybe you should reconsider the party you support if you dislike the type of people that make up its 'core vote'
Also a shame that Brown felt he couldn't stand up for you in public, imagine if he hadn't had the microphone on, you would have listened to her 'bigoted comments' and seen him smiling getting in the car saying lovely person."
"_AT_mooneym
Um, are you referring to Gillian Duffy as ""privileged""? She's a retired, working class council worker from a less than balmy part of the country, probably living on something like £12,000 a year. You may find the ""privileged"" classes deficient in certain ways and the working class deficient in others, but it's foolishness to suggest that they share each other's failings.
I do think we have to remember that a democracy will not function well if the views of the major parties are so far removed from those of their electors that the two groups find each other incomprehensible. You can refuse to give people what they want for a while - not for ever - but telling people that they are wrong to want it in the first place is doomed to fail."
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More paranoid hysteria, I've just clicked on a load of comments supporting Duffy that are from first time posters, get a grip.
"I'm glad you wrote this. I completely agree. I cannot stand Labour nor Gordon Brown, (I think they have an awful, awful record on civil liberties, for a start) but Gordon was right about that woman:
She is a shining example of what a ""bigot"" is (and I'm sure she didn't even know that word before yesterday's gaffe). It is people like that who ruin this country for everybody else with their ignorance."
"I am an immigrant from Italy and I have lived in this country since 1985. I have had overall a good experience; on the positive side, the openness, the helpfulness of so many people, even when my English was nowhere as good as it is now, the fairness when applying for a job. On the (much smaller) negative side, some humour directed at Italians, or at my accent, and some stereotypical assumptions about how I am expected to behave. All pretty understandable. In my experience, a foreigner from Western Europe, or from the USA, has very little negativity coming his or her way - probably pinpricks compared to what immigrants from far poorer countries have to cope with. But then, immigrants to Italy are far from being made welcome either.
I pay my taxes (at the higher rate) and, since my wife and I are childless and in good health, we draw on public services (at least for now) less than many immigrant (or native) families. On the other hand, when my mother was too old to stay on her own in Italy and she came here, and then needed care in a residential home, she queued and when it was her turn she was accepted, and when she ran out of money the local authority paid the difference between her pension and the costs of her care without a murmur, although she bhad paid all her taxes in Italy. And also on the other hand, I pay my taxes but I have a job that, if I wasn't here, could go to somebody born and brought up in London; and when I bought a house, with the proceeds of the sale of my flat in Italy, that helped push house prices up, in a small way. I might retire in Spain - and in this case, my UK pension will be spent somewhere else and support Spanish, not British, jobs. The immigration coin has many different sides.
The main problem, as I see it, is that the benefits of immigration go to people who are not at the receiving end of the negative sides: lower non-skilled wages benefit the most those who have more buying power, who are njot the same as those who have to cope with longer waiting lists and pressure on services. And beyond the economic side, a community with many immigrants in it loses the kind of predictability and reliability of behavours, in good and bad, which is given by a relatively homogeneous population. I can see where Mrs Duffy comes from, and frankly I don't think I can criticise her. In a longer perspective, one of the reasons why I could come here freely, work, acquire a British passport, and sop on, is because a lot of working-class Britons, perhaps xenophobic, perhaps uneducated, perhaps uninformed, fought for six years to defeat - and thus to free - my country of origin. In a perfect world, everyone would be educated, balanced, well informed, culturally open; in the real world, people who are not that can have other, not necessarily lower, good qualities."
Anyone else tempted to vote BNP after this? Come on be honest.
Three rousing cheers . Absolutely. One hundred per cent correct. At last.
"Dogday

And you are just angry that someone you despise for coming from another group dares to assert her value. Yet you jump to Mrs Duffy's defence - presumably because you see her as one of your own. So you demonstrate you are equally pretentious and precious"
"This is a terrible article.
With your decaf-skinny-latte-as-shorthand-for-too comfortable-and-socially-unaware' stereotyping, you are being pretty bigoted yourself. Yes, most people do know an immigrant, most of us know lots, and count them among our family and friends. It's arrogant and presumptuous to tell us what you 'want us to do' to open our eyes.
Gordon Brown was an idiot to call her a bigot, however narrow her mind is. I'll still vote for them, but there are a more people that won't now."
"I still haven't seen Gillian Duffy's comments reported rather than summarised and I wasn't going to accept the media's version without seeing the actual text/film. I was also unhappy at criticising Gillian Duffy rather than the media and politicians who have made xenophobic attitudes acceptable and aslo wanted to acknowledge that people who are unaccustomed to appear on TV may express themselves in a way that they later regret and that doesn't do justice to the complexity of their views.
Thanks for your piece. I shall look up the whole clip on youtube when I next have enough uninterrupted time and access to a computer with decent sound. I'll also do as you suggest and talk more to immigrants about their experiences in this country. And, in case no-one else bothers to say it, welcome."
Eastern Europeans are 'flocking' from Eastern Europe.
"_AT_phonopath

Really ? perhaps you could explain exactly what she said that defines her as a bigot ?
If he had said it to her face I'd have thought he had issues, unable to comprehend simple English, distrusting of the working class and/or those not as privileged as him and therefore not worth a vote."
I have worked in 2 different countries since 1998 and in both of those countries I was welcomed, there was of course some joking etc about my teeth, the royals etc but overall, I worked, made friends, got on with it. People were the same there as they are here, immigration, be it permanent or temporary is a fact of life. Without the Poles etc many of us would not have been able to afford painters, builders etc because the local tradesmen had become so expensive, you needed a 2nd mortgage to fix up a flat. This is economic reality. We invited the West Indians here in the 1950s because no brit would drive the buses or do other perceived menial roles. So its tough shit now. Mr and Mrs Ignorant cannot complain if they face competition for resources, jobs etc etc. Life is competition, it starts in the womb.
We are a nation of bigots, I am sick of hearing overweight british slobs on the media wingeing about foreigners taking our jobs. Its b*llocks, without the immigrant (educated, motivated hard working) workforce we would have no care workers, nurses, seasonal workers in the agricultural sector I could go on (and on) doing the jobs the local populace cant be arsed to get out of bed for.
"The Labour Party told us 50,000 Eastern Europeans would enter Britain at the time of the Polish accession. (Incidentally, shouldn't that be 'Central Europeans'?)
It's over one million now. Why on earth are you surprised that many Britons feel overwhelmed?
Add to this the fact that none of us were asked whether we wanted to join the political European Union that set this process in motion, and the wonder is that Duffy is the only one to have been able (accidentally) to make the point. (That you've only just been made aware of this feeling is because, well, it isn't allowed by the powers who hold the levers of media power).
Lest you and CIFers start foaming and allocating bigotry where it doesn't belong, let me add that I'm a first generation Central Europen immigrant, and my sympathies are ultimately with the free movements of free people. But, the indigenous population of this country have been refused any say, simply because, as Duffy has indicated, their views oppose the governing class's leftism.
To be blunt: Your contrived victimhood is absurd. If I, as a Central European, started telling the British that they may not do anything that impinges upon my world view, and the world view of their rulers, I'd be better off back home.
What can you do? The same as the British who so disappoint you: vote."
"Stankle
""You now appear to be applying the author's defence to a whole bunch of things Mrs Duffy didn't say.""
I am a tad confused by your post - I'm not sure I claimed Mrs Duffy said anything in particular.
Last post of mine was:
""If British people say stuff like: ""They only come over here to claim benefits cos we're a soft touch"" then the grafters and tax payers might feel a need to defend themselves.""
etc.
To elaborate:
with a general and widespread dislike of immigrants, often openly expressed in words and writing, it is fair enough for some to feel a need to defend and ""justify"" themselves."
"The adjective 'flocking' is indeed bigoted, but it's the rhetoric of the press that preys on people like Mrs. Duffy. It's too easy to direct anger and scorn at people for their ill-informed views, in a blog with a limited and predominantly middle-class, young middle-age readership. It shows a lack of understanding of towns like Rochdale where people have seen their landscape change dramatically because of immigration (whether for better or worse is not the point- they've had to adjust, which is always complicated and difficult), and of how the press manipulates people's feelings. From the way you write you'd think Mrs Duffy had launched into some kind of anti-foreigner diatribe, and she didn't. She voiced her fears to her Prime Minister because she wanted him to respond to them, and admittedly used some inflammatory language.
Gordon should have explained to her that immigration has many benefits, while showing understanding of her fears."
"Hi there Milena, I'm not a racist, And I don't think the questions that Mrs Duffy put to the Prime Minister were bigoted, they were most certainly unrehearsed and she clearly felt passionately about these things.
IF she was anti-foreigner then she could of course always vote BNP, but she said she was a a Labour supporter. ""Was"" being the important word here because I wouldn't vote for them on Thursday now if I was in her position.
Gordon Browns' performance was shambling, and after all these years in government he really ought to be more media savvy than this.
What Mrs Duffy said, indicates to me that she is badly informed, Not thick, not stupid or evil, just not in possession of the full facts.
For that we can hold the media as partly to blame, only partly though, as we are by our geographic and post colonial position in the world an insular nation. That is us.
We are however, gradually changing generation by generation, slowly but
surely. Unlike the USA who are building more draw bridges, in order to pull them up.
May I ask you, what were your own personal reasons for choosing to come here?
If it was to work and you have found work, and on the whole that work has made your life better than before, then good for you. I am pleased that my country has enabled that.
Many who were invited, yes invited here after the second world war from The West indies, India and other former British colonies, people who had fought alongside the European allies to defeat the fascists, were themselves bewildered at the ignorance, casual racism, and hatred meted out to them when they set foot on these shores. They'll be able to tell you a few things about bigotry.
But I expect that as an educated woman you will know all this, and will have chosen to come here after careful research."
"Do you suppose that any Brits would refust to do ""menial"" jobs, no matter how high a wage they paid? Lets say being a toliet cleaner paid £1000 a week, for instance? Plenty of Brits would put up with this ""menial"" job for a few years in order to save enough to buy a home.
Of course it is ridiculous to suggest that toilet cleaners are paid £1000 a week, but the point stands. There are no ""jobs British people don't WANT to do"", there are only ""jobs British people don't WANT to do the wage on offer"". How many doctors do you suppose would be happy to work for minimum wage? What about MPs?
The fact is that in this country today, there are far too many low-paid jobs, that do not pay enough for people to live. The moderately well-paid jobs in industry were lost and the jobs that replaced them in the service sector are far poorly paid. Meanwhile those at the top end of society have seen their earnings skyrocket, which has greatly skewed the prices of many goods and services, and housing in particular. It is not unreasonable that more than a few people are upset and greatly resentful towards the government because of this."
"Stankle
""You now appear to be applying the author's defence to a whole bunch of things Mrs Duffy didn't say.""
I am a tad confused by your post - I'm not sure I claimed Mrs Duffy said anything in particular.
Last post of mine was:
""If British people say stuff like: ""They only come over here to claim benefits cos we're a soft touch"" then the grafters and tax payers might feel a need to defend themselves.""
etc.
To elaborate:
with a general and widespread dislike of immigrants, often openly expressed in words and writing, it is fair enough for some to feel a need to defend and ""justify"" themselves."
Tautology was gazumpted by Irony.
"Hi there Milena, I'm not a racist, And I don't think the questions that Mrs Duffy put to the Prime Minister were bigoted, they were most certainly unrehearsed and she clearly felt passionately about these things.
IF she was anti-foreigner then she could of course always vote BNP, but she said she was a a Labour supporter. ""Was"" being the important word here because I wouldn't vote for them on Thursday now if I was in her position.
Gordon Browns' performance was shambling, and after all these years in government he really ought to be more media savvy than this.
What Mrs Duffy said, indicates to me that she is badly informed, Not thick, not stupid or evil, just not in possession of the full facts.
For that we can hold the media as partly to blame, only partly though, as we are by our geographic and post colonial position in the world an insular nation. That is us.
We are however, gradually changing generation by generation, slowly but
surely. Unlike the USA who are building more draw bridges, in order to pull them up.
May I ask you, what were your own personal reasons for choosing to come here?
If it was to work and you have found work, and on the whole that work has made your life better than before, then good for you. I am pleased that my country has enabled that.
Many who were invited, yes invited here after the second world war from The West indies, India and other former British colonies, people who had fought alongside the European allies to defeat the fascists, were themselves bewildered at the ignorance, casual racism, and hatred meted out to them when they set foot on these shores. They'll be able to tell you a few things about bigotry.
But I expect that as an educated woman you will know all this, and will have chosen to come here after careful research."
"Do you suppose that any Brits would refust to do ""menial"" jobs, no matter how high a wage they paid? Lets say being a toliet cleaner paid £1000 a week, for instance? Plenty of Brits would put up with this ""menial"" job for a few years in order to save enough to buy a home.
Of course it is ridiculous to suggest that toilet cleaners are paid £1000 a week, but the point stands. There are no ""jobs British people don't WANT to do"", there are only ""jobs British people don't WANT to do the wage on offer"". How many doctors do you suppose would be happy to work for minimum wage? What about MPs?
The fact is that in this country today, there are far too many low-paid jobs, that do not pay enough for people to live. The moderately well-paid jobs in industry were lost and the jobs that replaced them in the service sector are far poorly paid. Meanwhile those at the top end of society have seen their earnings skyrocket, which has greatly skewed the prices of many goods and services, and housing in particular. It is not unreasonable that more than a few people are upset and greatly resentful towards the government because of this."
Tautology was gazumpted by Irony.
"Meet an immigrant? Been there, been one.
You sound as though you think it's all roses and chocolate being a UK immigrant in other countries. I spent many years in France and in Germany. In that time I've had people refuse to serve me because of my nationality; landlords have refused to allow me to rent flats because of my nationality; I've been denied jobs because of my nationality; I've heard a whole lot of nasty jokes about the British/English/English speakers; etc. Of course it never seems to occur to those making the jokes that they might actually be offensive, and they'd be ever so hurt if you pointed it out.
For many, the move to the UK is part of a 'wave' of immigration (sorry if that's bigoted, but I do in fact mean 'coordinated multiparticulate motion', rather than 'large oceanic thing that drowns you and probably contains jellyfish'). In the words of Arlo Guthrie:

Being alone and lost and confused in a totally foreign country is indeed a daunting thing. My personal experience of doing it, which as an anecdote is worth no more or less than your anecdote, suggests to me that the lone immigrant often has to put up with an awful lot of nonsense before acceptance, if that ever happens. The 'movement' aspect of this case has advantages and disadvantages. On the one hand, the 'lone(ly) immigrant' situation is less likely, which is good; it's more likely that there will be some concessions available (eg. stores, newspapers in relevant languages, etc), which is good. On the other hand, if (sorry) 'birds of a feather flock together' (not intended to imply that immigrants poop on pavements, dear metaphor literalists, but rather 'emergent behaviour may be inherent from nearest-neighbour interaction'), that implies inadvertent segregation, limiting interaction between groups, building resentment and hostility. Which is bad. You, yourself, seem to speak for what you perceive to be your group ('us flocking Eastern Europeans'). Isn't that really just 'feeding the troll', or do you really believe that there is a benefit in asserting collective identity?
Many individuals in the countries I have lived in are/were appallingly ignorant about the British. I accept that many had, frankly, short-sighted and stupid views. I dealt with it, and still do, and it is well worth the effort of doing so. I'm definitely not bursting into floods of tears about it. So I'm trying here to be nice, and polite, and not judge, and so I'll just say what I've been told myself: to be an immigrant requires a thick skin, lots of confidence and a lot of patience. Truthfully, you can't change other people. You can only change yourself, and hope that other people follow. Either it's worth persevering, even if it means frustration and anger and the need for counselling, or it isn't.
Duffy has done nothing that particularly requires a smackdown, except for being accidental human interest in a media circus. Neither have you, except for going after someone pretty standard as though they were Joe The Plumber and you were an angry Democrat. Both of you, in a political environment, are wearing your heart on your sleeve. But none of this proves anything except a) Duffy is concerned regarding certain aspects of immigration, and so what else would anybody expect, and b) you have for some reason taken this extraordinarily personally, and would be best advised to turn off the TV and go for a walk."
Duffy....that's an Irish name isn't it? Maybe she was being ironic.
"Coincidently, I wrote this letter to my local newspaper last weekend, which they've just published.
However, I don't regard this bloke as a bigot, just an idiot, I've been arguing with these people all my life ( and that's a good many decades) it'd take all the fun out of life if they all became liberals.
Brown dealt with the Duffy situation very well, however the use of the word bigot, allbeit in private, showed ill tempered intolerance, fortunately it won't lose Labour many votes, because people who make an effort to vote have usually got some intelligence and better things to worry about.
My letter letter to the Newark Advertiser:
Your correspondent John Tinsley says that we welcome increasing numbers of migrants with no higher ideal than to improve their economic status (Youth At Risk, News Views, April 23).
Is that not a very honourable ambition?
Go to countries around the world, especially in Europe, and you?ll find masses of British people doing the same thing.
Is it only wrong when foreigners come to this country?
The British troops who go to Afghanistan do it to improve their economic status, and you only have to watch them talk about getting involved in a firefight to see that?s why they joined.
When I was doing National Service in 1956, the Suez debacle took place and two regular officers were talking in my office.
One said to the other: ?Thank God for this war; at last I?m going to get my half colonel pips.?
It?s a job. Only civilians, politicians and tabloid newspapers talk about ?our brave boys.? The troops themselves signed up for it.
A friend (a National Service conscript) who stopped a bullet in Malaya where he was fighting the Communist insurgents, told me one day that he wished people would stop telling him how brave he was.
?For crying out loud,? he said. ?I was sent on patrol by an officer. If I?d told him to clear off that would have been brave.?"
"I am sorry for all immigrants to this country which have to read the anti foreigner anti EU tripe printed by the Red tops, and the so called serious newspapers repeat it hypocritically. The BBC and the rest of the media are also guilty when they do nothing to dispel the maybe genuine fears of the less well educated people.
We are in the EU. In the EU are 27 countries we are able to buy property, live and work in al of these countries, they equally are entitled to the same here. They can pay taxes here, vote in Local and provincial elections but not National Elections.
I have been an imigrnat worker in several EU states and have never met the bigoted views put forward by our press and repeated by a large section of the population.
I would go as far as to say that in some of the countries I have lived some of the lies printed in our papers would have been illegal.
The reason they are allowed to carry on their slander of the innocent is because the right wing want to deflect our anger from themselves which they are generally successfull in.
God does not draw lines on a map politicians and exploiters do."
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"_AT_phonopath

Really ? perhaps you could explain exactly what she said that defines her as a bigot ?
If he had said it to her face I'd have thought he had issues, unable to comprehend simple English, distrusting of the working class and/or those not as privileged as him and therefore not worth a vote."
Mrs Duffy is not a bigot -- she asked a perfectly reasonable question in her own way...Brown's comments were typical of the man... if he doesn't like a question the person asking it rubbished...
"I am sorry for all immigrants to this country which have to read the anti foreigner anti EU tripe printed by the Red tops, and the so called serious newspapers repeat it hypocritically. The BBC and the rest of the media are also guilty when they do nothing to dispel the maybe genuine fears of the less well educated people.
We are in the EU. In the EU are 27 countries we are able to buy property, live and work in al of these countries, they equally are entitled to the same here. They can pay taxes here, vote in Local and provincial elections but not National Elections.
I have been an imigrnat worker in several EU states and have never met the bigoted views put forward by our press and repeated by a large section of the population.
I would go as far as to say that in some of the countries I have lived some of the lies printed in our papers would have been illegal.
The reason they are allowed to carry on their slander of the innocent is because the right wing want to deflect our anger from themselves which they are generally successfull in.
God does not draw lines on a map politicians and exploiters do."
"It must be that Milena Popova is disenfranchised out of choice, i.e. she is not prepared to give up foreign citizenship.
""Oh, I wonder if I can challenge Duffy to take the citizenship test.""
The Life In The UK Test
(""The voltage supplied to almost all properties in the United Kingdom is
110 Volts?
150 Volts?
240 Volts?
480 Volts?"")
is not a citizenship test.
Being able to give the right answers to a New Labour pub quiz should not entitle anyone to a British passport.
Given Labour's discrimatory treatment of Romanians and Bulgarians
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=apusU_Xn7Kuc
it's probably not a good idea for the NL berkocracy to start accusing people of bigotry."
"Lots of you are missing the point here.
Brown did NOT stand up to Mrs Duffy. He told her how nice it was to meet her and complimented her on her grandchildren....and then called her a bigot behind her back.
That's the real problem from Brown. If he thought she was a bigot then he should have challenged her views, or at the least said he did not agree and moved on, but he did not. He then said he'd ""misunderstood"" - a weasel wording apolog if I ever heard one.
That's why he deserves to be slated whatever your view on what Mrs duffy said. Either it was not bigotted, in which case he was slagging off a nice old lady behind her back, or it was, in which case he was two-faced and dishonest to his beliefs for being matey with her and not challenging her views.
On the issue itself I say - if you think what she said was so bad to reduce you to tears then I honestly fear for your mental state. Do I agree with her, no, but is what she said in any way shocking, no. Honestly, on the BBC news much worse was said by about half the people in Rochdale they doorstepped for views.
Going back to my original point, its another reason why it plays so badly for Brown. He came out of the original conversation pretty well to the outside observer and with the woman herself telling the press she liked Brown and would vote for him. In fact, she did not challenge his answr on immigration at all, but seemed to accept it and move on to a totally different topic altogether."
"Coincidently, I wrote this letter to my local newspaper last weekend, which they've just published.
However, I don't regard this bloke as a bigot, just an idiot, I've been arguing with these people all my life ( and that's a good many decades) it'd take all the fun out of life if they all became liberals.
Brown dealt with the Duffy situation very well, however the use of the word bigot, allbeit in private, showed ill tempered intolerance, fortunately it won't lose Labour many votes, because people who make an effort to vote have usually got some intelligence and better things to worry about.
My letter letter to the Newark Advertiser:
Your correspondent John Tinsley says that we welcome increasing numbers of migrants with no higher ideal than to improve their economic status (Youth At Risk, News Views, April 23).
Is that not a very honourable ambition?
Go to countries around the world, especially in Europe, and you?ll find masses of British people doing the same thing.
Is it only wrong when foreigners come to this country?
The British troops who go to Afghanistan do it to improve their economic status, and you only have to watch them talk about getting involved in a firefight to see that?s why they joined.
When I was doing National Service in 1956, the Suez debacle took place and two regular officers were talking in my office.
One said to the other: ?Thank God for this war; at last I?m going to get my half colonel pips.?
It?s a job. Only civilians, politicians and tabloid newspapers talk about ?our brave boys.? The troops themselves signed up for it.
A friend (a National Service conscript) who stopped a bullet in Malaya where he was fighting the Communist insurgents, told me one day that he wished people would stop telling him how brave he was.
?For crying out loud,? he said. ?I was sent on patrol by an officer. If I?d told him to clear off that would have been brave.?"
"~reads comments~
I *want* to say something pro-education, rather than bashing people for bashing people, but tautology got gazumpted by irony."
Generalization, I live in an area with lots of immigrants who use the local services but also contribute in taxes, including working class Poles, who have helped me improve my Polish whilst I help with their English.
"Stankle
""You now appear to be applying the author's defence to a whole bunch of things Mrs Duffy didn't say.""
I am a tad confused by your post - I'm not sure I claimed Mrs Duffy said anything in particular.
Last post of mine was:
""If British people say stuff like: ""They only come over here to claim benefits cos we're a soft touch"" then the grafters and tax payers might feel a need to defend themselves.""
etc.
To elaborate:
with a general and widespread dislike of immigrants, often openly expressed in words and writing, it is fair enough for some to feel a need to defend and ""justify"" themselves."
"Maybe you and Mrs. Duffy feel the same - nobody's listening, sticking up for you or thinking you're a valuable member of society.
She's just been called a bigot by the Prime Minister. That's probably enough don't know why you want all your friends on Twitter to be angry at her too."
Gordon Brown has clearly employed a team of temps to sign up to CiF and back him up. Spooky!
"FugaziFan

Indeed. On this thread alone we've had:



All sounds a bit bigoted to me. Most British people seem to have thick skins and just put up with it, unlike the author of this piece."
Yup. When a proper historical accounting is done, it will be seen that class prejudice was at the root of the pro-immigration, pro-multicult mania. The Fabian types always despised the working classes but had to pretend to care about them. Immigration finally gave them the excuse they needed to be able to unleash their contempt on the proletarian masses and feel good about it at the same time.
"_AT_Longhaultrucker - the author is a Bulgarian, not a Pole. Indeed, she prefers to remain Bulgarian rather than take up British citizenship, hence she doesn't have a vote.
If you think Polish pilots in WWII justify Polish immigration (?!) then it is probably worth pointing out who Bulgaria was allied with during WWII:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bulgaria#World_War_II
_AT_Barry841
""... so you see, you cannot just move to the UK and get everything free. You need to work or have your own money to support yourself. Myth: Busted.""
Our asylum/immigration/citizenship system is indeed weak, here are a couple of high profile cases for you to ponder (or ""bust"" if you can):
""Single"" mother and seven children (from Afghanistan) given free housing:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23571099-1m-council-home-sparks-review-of-housing-benefits.do
The husband in that family was later ""busted"" for fraud, so perhaps not so single:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2811824/Cigarette-scam-Afghan-has-cost-taxpayers-1million.html
or perhaps this one, two free homes, but only one (large) family?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6936223.ece
Exceptional perhaps, but even one of these instances is equivalent to the tax-take from many Mrs Duffys or the average employed East European migrant.
Strangely, CiF hasn't asked any of the immigrants involved in these cases to write about how welcoming or otherwise they have found the UK. Why not? Wouldn't it help the pro-mass immigration case?
They look like winners to me. Perhaps they could explain to Mrs Duffy why university tuition fees (which Labour promised not to introduce) are now neccesary for her grandchildren? Housing Benefit now costs £20 billion - that money has to come from somewhere."
"SirOrfeo

There's a difference between saying that education about immigration is necessary in our society (quite agree) and saying what Milena said: ""Be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that you are trying to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something."" which is perhaps the most grotesquely, offensively patronising thing I've ever read in my entire life, not least because it is addressed to people who have been living alongside immigrants for decades.
dan1973

The people I am describing are here entirely legally, from the expanded EU, mostly Romania, but some from Bulgaria, Poland and other countries. They are living in privately rented houses, which are extremely cheap and available in my part of Manchester. As I understand it, the situation is very similar in Rochdale, although the people involved are largely Polish rather than Roma. But the situations are indeed very, very similar.
OZKT

It's not really about ethnicity, because we we're a highly diverse community already, with very good race relations. It's about sudden, rapid change. It's a bit like waking up one morning and finding you live in a different place you went to sleep in last night. I don't have a problem with that personally, but a lot of people, understandably, find it rather discombobulating. That is as true of our large Asian/Muslim and African-Caribbean communities as the white British communities. All of us have found it to be a significant upheaval.

It's not about how educated we are. It's about how offensively patronising it is to be told that if you have a problem with your home community changing overnight, then educate yourself until you understand it.

They weren't moved here, they chose to come here of their own free will, because there was a lot of cheap housing, because we are a poor area. What another charming poster on Cif this morning called 'wasteland.'"
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"chav45 no but given the smearing going on this is article, you can start to see why people do .
Express any opinion that?s not totally supportive of immigration and except to get attacked, is the message coming out loud and clear. The idea that using the word flocking is some great insults is stupid ,it?s a word used sometimes to describe groups of people, as in ?the people will come flocking?. It quite possible it?s just a word she used to describe a group of people which means nothing but that.
But the attack dogs , and that is an insult , of the left very quickly to attribute a thousand and one things to her which they zero evidence but reflect their own prejudiced.
I wonder if the Guardian will have the balls to give Mrs Duffy the right to reply to this attack or will it once again hid behind accuses ?"
We are a nation of bigots. I am sick of the sound & sight of red faced wingeing Brits on the media bangingon about foreigners taking our jobs; we would not have care workers, nurses, agricultural workers doing the hard graft because we can't (generally) be bothered to get off our fat arses
"_AT_AllyF -- Spot on.
_AT_Milena:

And that's why it's wrong to target Gillian Duffy -- Brown could have challenged her as you suggested, he could have found out more about what she meant. He could have tried to understand. But he didn't and he didn't confront her honestly and openly. Now she's being used by the media (but if she gets that £50k maybe her grandchildren will get a good university education)
I come from a working class family the questions she asked about education and welfare and looking after the vulnerable and about the impact of recent immigration are all questions that would be raised by family -- especially of that generation. At one point in the 1980s all of the adult males in my family were unemployed because of the collapse/destruction of the car industry, they started again, now the older ones have questions about pension relief, about health care, about how the younger ones are going to manage -- how they'll find a job that pays enough to buy a home or how they'll be able to afford to go to university to get themselves out of the trap. They are Labour people, they were brought up to understand how capitalism seeks to drive down wages whilst increasing profits for shareholders, and they worry that immigrant labour will drive down wages. Not middle-class professional salaries, but wages for basic jobs at a time when there is growing unemployment. Whether the fears are well-founded or not is another matter but avoiding the question and then calling those who have these concerns bigots is desperately avoiding reality. The BNP really can't get close to the many people who have these concerns because it isn't about 'race' or 'foreigners' in general.
I don't live in the UK at the moment -- I'm an immigrant. Like you I have a good job and I pay higher rate income tax. But there are plenty of other immigrants here who have lower paid jobs and who work very hard - but when they lose their job because of ill-health, or because the company goes bust, what happens to them? Are they looked after? In addition: whilst I'm paid a good salary, am I taxed enough to insure that the poorest receive the support they need? I mean both locals and incomers..."
"Hi there Milena, I'm not a racist, And I don't think the questions that Mrs Duffy put to the Prime Minister were bigoted, they were most certainly unrehearsed and she clearly felt passionately about these things.
IF she was anti-foreigner then she could of course always vote BNP, but she said she was a a Labour supporter. ""Was"" being the important word here because I wouldn't vote for them on Thursday now if I was in her position.
Gordon Browns' performance was shambling, and after all these years in government he really ought to be more media savvy than this.
What Mrs Duffy said, indicates to me that she is badly informed, Not thick, not stupid or evil, just not in possession of the full facts.
For that we can hold the media as partly to blame, only partly though, as we are by our geographic and post colonial position in the world an insular nation. That is us.
We are however, gradually changing generation by generation, slowly but
surely. Unlike the USA who are building more draw bridges, in order to pull them up.
May I ask you, what were your own personal reasons for choosing to come here?
If it was to work and you have found work, and on the whole that work has made your life better than before, then good for you. I am pleased that my country has enabled that.
Many who were invited, yes invited here after the second world war from The West indies, India and other former British colonies, people who had fought alongside the European allies to defeat the fascists, were themselves bewildered at the ignorance, casual racism, and hatred meted out to them when they set foot on these shores. They'll be able to tell you a few things about bigotry.
But I expect that as an educated woman you will know all this, and will have chosen to come here after careful research."
"chav45 no but given the smearing going on this is article, you can start to see why people do .
Express any opinion that?s not totally supportive of immigration and except to get attacked, is the message coming out loud and clear. The idea that using the word flocking is some great insults is stupid ,it?s a word used sometimes to describe groups of people, as in ?the people will come flocking?. It quite possible it?s just a word she used to describe a group of people which means nothing but that.
But the attack dogs , and that is an insult , of the left very quickly to attribute a thousand and one things to her which they zero evidence but reflect their own prejudiced.
I wonder if the Guardian will have the balls to give Mrs Duffy the right to reply to this attack or will it once again hid behind accuses ?"
"Hi Milena,
I am a fellow Eastern European and I understand you perfectly. I too have lived in the UK for over 10 years and have the right to vote, finally! So will you, soon.
And yes, it is true that there will always be prejudiced people and that foreigners will not always be well-accepted. Just think about Bulgaria and about some of the foreigners of less desired kind there. To mistrust them is natural and understandable and hard as it may be to live away from home and start afresh, hey, this is your own choice, I hope. You are free and should you believe that people in Bulgaria or elsewhere are more accepting of foreigners, do go there and let me know, I will consider moving there :-)"
Milena ..Mrs Duffy is entitled to her opinion , she is after all , a British citizen , and you ( as are many others) are not ... She has the right to say that in an era of increasingly high unemployment , cutbacks in the welfare state etc ..that British citizens come first ...That emphatically does not make her bigoted , racist , xenophobic , A BNP supporter etc . Blame Gordon for not introducing his immigration points system when Germany etc did. Yes you contribute to the overall economy ...but this has the habit of making the rich richer and drives down the wages of poorer indigenous folk ...so its not all positive....
"chav45 no but given the smearing going on this is article, you can start to see why people do .
Express any opinion that?s not totally supportive of immigration and except to get attacked, is the message coming out loud and clear. The idea that using the word flocking is some great insults is stupid ,it?s a word used sometimes to describe groups of people, as in ?the people will come flocking?. It quite possible it?s just a word she used to describe a group of people which means nothing but that.
But the attack dogs , and that is an insult , of the left very quickly to attribute a thousand and one things to her which they zero evidence but reflect their own prejudiced.
I wonder if the Guardian will have the balls to give Mrs Duffy the right to reply to this attack or will it once again hid behind accuses ?"
"Sounds like you and Mrs. Duffy feel the same - nobody's listening or valuing you as a member of society.
So you've come out and said something angry in the public domain.
She's just been called a bigot by the Prime Minister. That's probably enough. Not sure why you want all your friends on Twitter to be angry at her too."
"May I amend your last paragraph?
So here's what I want you to do. The vast majority of you will know a Briton - they might be a close friend, they might be the girl who makes your decaf skinny latte in the coffee shop, they might be a colleague. I want you to go up to that person and ask them what it's like being a citizen of the third most crowded nation in the world, being asked to accept over one million new Eastern European immigrants without being asked. Even if you think you know them really well already, you probably have never thought or talked to them about these things. How does it feel to be so overwhelmed? To have your old life and culture wiped away and to have to start again, in your own home, from scratch? To be in the middle of a general election where the oppostion requires 14% more of the vote to receive the same representaion as the party who invited the immigrants in? When were they asked if they wanted the fragile welfare state diluted like this? What do and don't they like about immigrants? What was it like here when it was their own country? Be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that you are trying to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something.
Lest you mistake me: I write as a first generation Briton of Central European descent."
Milena ..Mrs Duffy is entitled to her opinion , she is after all , a British citizen , and you ( as are many others) are not ... She has the right to say that in an era of increasingly high unemployment , cutbacks in the welfare state etc ..that British citizens come first ...That emphatically does not make her bigoted , racist , xenophobic , A BNP supporter etc . Blame Gordon for not introducing his immigration points system when Germany etc did. Yes you contribute to the overall economy ...but this has the habit of making the rich richer and drives down the wages of poorer indigenous folk ...so its not all positive....
If Gordon had asked this lady how she had been inconvenienced by immigrants and then went on to list some of the benefits migration has brought to this country, many people would have admired him atleast for his honesty. There is no limit to pandering to prejudice.
I was pleased to hear a politician telling the truth for once, but was disappointed when he apologised. That woman WAS bigoted, whether she (and the general public) like it or not. I am gutted that people like her have the vote when so many bright and intelligent, tollerant people refuse to use their vote in a constructive manner.
being a brit in australia I felt what it was like to be an immigrant, it was horrible, treated like a second class citizen when back packing, left a nasty taste in my mouth. made me think differently about immigrants in Britain. People need scapegoats to blame for thier failiures, immigrants are convienient. Brits are happier signing on, getting benifits to pay nfor their homes. please realise not everyone is like the old biggot, most of us embrace different cultures and learn from them. the uk would be a lot duller if we were all like Ms Duffy.
Milena ..Mrs Duffy is entitled to her opinion , she is after all , a British citizen , and you ( as are many others) are not ... She has the right to say that in an era of increasingly high unemployment , cutbacks in the welfare state etc ..that British citizens come first ...That emphatically does not make her bigoted , racist , xenophobic , A BNP supporter etc . Blame Gordon for not introducing his immigration points system when Germany etc did. Yes you contribute to the overall economy ...but this has the habit of making the rich richer and drives down the wages of poorer indigenous folk ...so its not all positive....
"May I amend your last paragraph?
So here's what I want you to do. The vast majority of you will know a Briton - they might be a close friend, they might be the girl who makes your decaf skinny latte in the coffee shop, they might be a colleague. I want you to go up to that person and ask them what it's like being a citizen of the third most crowded nation in the world, being asked to accept over one million new Eastern European immigrants without being asked. Even if you think you know them really well already, you probably have never thought or talked to them about these things. How does it feel to be so overwhelmed? To have your old life and culture wiped away and to have to start again, in your own home, from scratch? To be in the middle of a general election where the oppostion requires 14% more of the vote to receive the same representaion as the party who invited the immigrants in? When were they asked if they wanted the fragile welfare state diluted like this? What do and don't they like about immigrants? What was it like here when it was their own country? Be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that you are trying to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something.
Lest you mistake me: I write as a first generation Briton of Central European descent."
"MEL
No it is still the stupidist thing I have ever heard.
Personally I don't know how you can write or think what you do.
An old woman asks the PM about immigration and his first response is to give some waffle and lie about statistics then the moment he thinks he is clear he calls her a bigot (read racist).
JUST HOW THE F%CK IS THAT HAVING AN OPEN AND HONEST DEBATE?
GDP per capita is falling or stagnant, real wages are falling, inflation is rising, house prices are rising despite everything, nearly 10 million UK people doing nothing and you still think the UK needs more people. You are a zealot and an ideologue with no thought at all for those in direct competition with the millions of people who have been allowed into the UK.
I thought Labour were supposed to be the ones who cared about the less well off and would look after their interests, obviously not."
"_AT_Longhaultrucker - the author is a Bulgarian, not a Pole. Indeed, she prefers to remain Bulgarian rather than take up British citizenship, hence she doesn't have a vote.
If you think Polish pilots in WWII justify Polish immigration (?!) then it is probably worth pointing out who Bulgaria was allied with during WWII:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bulgaria#World_War_II
_AT_Barry841
""... so you see, you cannot just move to the UK and get everything free. You need to work or have your own money to support yourself. Myth: Busted.""
Our asylum/immigration/citizenship system is indeed weak, here are a couple of high profile cases for you to ponder (or ""bust"" if you can):
""Single"" mother and seven children (from Afghanistan) given free housing:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23571099-1m-council-home-sparks-review-of-housing-benefits.do
The husband in that family was later ""busted"" for fraud, so perhaps not so single:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2811824/Cigarette-scam-Afghan-has-cost-taxpayers-1million.html
or perhaps this one, two free homes, but only one (large) family?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6936223.ece
Exceptional perhaps, but even one of these instances is equivalent to the tax-take from many Mrs Duffys or the average employed East European migrant.
Strangely, CiF hasn't asked any of the immigrants involved in these cases to write about how welcoming or otherwise they have found the UK. Why not? Wouldn't it help the pro-mass immigration case?
They look like winners to me. Perhaps they could explain to Mrs Duffy why university tuition fees (which Labour promised not to introduce) are now neccesary for her grandchildren? Housing Benefit rising to £20 billion a year may have something to do with it."
"Where have all the earlier comments gone?
There are two issues. Was Mrs Duffy being a bigot? Surely that would be Gordon Brown himself? She simply asked a question about immigration. Gordon Brown answered her with a lie that the number of British in Europe equals the number of Europeans here, when the truth is neither we, nor he, has those statistics, but the evidence of our own eyes and ears tells us that 'balance' certainly does not exist. Then he described her as 'bigotted' simply for bringing up a subject which he wanted silenced.
The second questiuon is why is Milena so offended? Did she really think that there weren't a large number of people who are very unhappy about the scale of immigration from Eastern Europe (never mind elsewhere)? Does she think all the natives of her country would welcome the arrival of huge numbers of immigrants from Russia, Turkey, Romania or China? Would she herself?"
"Some sense on the matter
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8698/
...what this episode reveals is not working class contempt for immigrants , so much as the political elites contempt for the white working class ,,,"
"Milena Popova - You are a BULGARIAN not an eastern european...
Why the Coyness?
Why are you concerned Milena? Bulgarians are not allowed to work in Britain, unlike the 2004 EU eastward expansion members like Poland. But nearly all young Bulgarians are working- either as extremely lowpaid cash in hand slaves or on in high class prestigous Soros finnaced ""open society "" funded exchange to train anglophone janissaries...Thats you Milena!
Bulgaria, for those that do not know, economy is currentlt in turmoill and has a minimum wage of about 200 bulgarian leva...just 110 Euro a month or about 50p per hour yet this is tax at 15% and Bulgaria has a ludicrously expensive obligatory healthcare tax system..But Bulgaria is far from cheap...look at this website www.cba.bg for food prices.
Bulgarians are not known for their ethnic ""tolerance"" -the communist dictator Todor Zhivkov's 1994 name changing campaign for ethnic turks was popular amongst the Bulgar majority..even today Bulgaria has several far right ATTAKA MEP one of who caused popular uproar in bulgaria for calling a hungarian MEP ""a dirty gypsy""..Bulgarians are only european when on the take...
Milena look at your own rezil country first..."
"Yes, yes and YES!
I was furious yesterday. I could hardly contain myself. She was bigoted, no question. To check this out do the replacement test. No idea what that is? Well you just replace the people being attacked (you know, the ones that people are saying it?s ok to use sweeping generalisations against) and replace them with a group that now (thankfully) you can?t say that about anymore without getting shouted down. Black people, gay people. You get the picture. Okay, so now her comment reads ?I don?t know where those black people are all flocking from? and suddenly it is blindingly obvious that she was being bigoted.
You can make it even more personal and make it about your own family and see how you react to that one. Makes you cross when people start accusing you of flocking places and all that implies, doesn?t it. Good.
I was also furious with Gordon Brown for two reasons: Firstly for being a hypocrite and secondly for apologising. He lost whatever moral backbone he had yesterday. He should have explained to her why he called her a bigot and used it as a campaigning tool to champion the role that immigrant play in this country. The implication in some other threads that you are either a higher band tax-paying immigrant or you are a criminal is odious. What about the 60,000 immigrants propping up the NHS in London alone and allowing our way of life to continue?
We need immigrants and I?m certain that most of us can trace our roots back to immigrants. This is an island after all. Has the programme ?Who do you think you are?? taught us nothing?"
"If you're so upset by her opinions, imagine what she might feel about yours.
That's the trouble with freedom. People sometimes use it in ways you don't like. I remain firmly of the view that so long as no actual harm results, people can do/ think/ say as they like. Freedom of speech is rather better than the alternative- something I thought people of the former Soviet bloc might have come to appreciate
But when a Prime Minister cannot articulate a clear and rational answer to a question about his own record on immigration, preferring instead to feign to care in public, then childishly complain afterwards; that's not him exercising freedom, but reneging responsibility."
Milena ..Mrs Duffy is entitled to her opinion , she is after all , a British citizen , and you ( as are many others) are not ... She has the right to say that in an era of increasingly high unemployment , cutbacks in the welfare state etc ..that British citizens come first ...That emphatically does not make her bigoted , racist , xenophobic , A BNP supporter etc . Blame Gordon for not introducing his immigration points system when Germany etc did. Yes you contribute to the overall economy ...but this has the habit of making the rich richer and drives down the wages of poorer indigenous folk ...so its not all positive....
"Mrs Duffy said nothing bad about immigrants. Her concerns are that immigration from eastern europe is too high in the area she lives. She is concerned for her culture and the future of her grandchildren.
Would yopu be happy if 300 english immigrants moved to your area of poland and undercut local wages?"
I ? Milena
"I see the CiF clock is screwed again.
The Amazing Criswell predicts that in In half an hour BigNowitzki will say ....

Now where did I put that theremin?"
How does a Bulgarian get to live in the UK prior to 2007? She was not entitled as Bulgaria was not in the EU, not an illegal immigrant was she?
"Maybe Gillian Duffy is not a bigot. Maybe she's merely ignorant.
""British jobs for British workers""; what's the premise of that line? That merely being born someplace makes you competent to do the job? What a baseless sense of entitlement. If you think that, for equal qualifications and equal pay, a Brit should be given priority over a foreigner for a job (or vice versa), then that is a prejudiced, discriminatory attitude and it makes you a bigot.
The free movement of people from new members of the EU, including Eastern Europeans, is legal; they have the right to live here in the UK just as we have the right to go work in their countries of origin. This is a freedom that is reciprocated to our collective mutual enrichment; indeed, millions of Brits work abroad, in the EU and elsewhere. Should they be send packing home on the basis of ""Albanian jobs for Albanians"" or whatever?"
"Thanks to bigot-gate, for the first time I've agreed with Brown.
The woman is bigoted."
"While I agree with a lot of what you say, Milena, I can assure you that 60 million native Brits are not all like Gillian Duffy. You should be careful not to make yourself look just as bigoted as her.
On a different note, perhaps one reason so few people were standing up in support of Brown is that, amid all the hype about his comments in the car, most news sites (the BBC, for example) didn't actually show any footage of the interview."
Yup. When a proper historical accounting is done, it will be seen that class prejudice was at the root of the pro-immigration, pro-multicult mania. The Fabian types always despised the working classes but had to pretend to care about them. Immigration finally gave them the excuse they needed to be able to unleash their contempt on the proletarian masses and feel good about it at the same time.
"Read this earlier, when it was doing the rounds on Twitter.
Some interesting points but mainly made me think about how different everyone's internet can be as my twitter feed was full of people 'standing up' against bigotry to the point of quite forcefully slagging off a non-media trained and possibly not that educated pensioner who's personal views had inadvertantly become nationally debated.
I didn't see any shortage of people 'standing up' against her view. In fact, I saw so much standing up against them that it made me worry about some elements of the left's respect and compassion for those whose views differed from their own.
The whole thing is a sad mess and no-one comes out of it well for me. Let's just hope Gordon hasn't handed to the keys to No. 10 to Cameron by gaffing and putting such a left/right polarising issue at the centre of the debate."
"Basically - the cause of all the prejudice is that people do not understand the differences or meanings of the words below:
Immigrant
Illegal immigrant
Economic migrant
Asylum seeker
Refugee
I am sure that a lot of people in Spain are sick of all the UK economic migrants going over there and buying holiday homes they only stay in once or twice a year, running bars and cafes and taking up jobs that Spanish people could have and basically lowering the tone through constant drink, drunk, behaviour. Gordon and Jill are both wrong."
"_AT_cloudmaster
>>Would yopu be happy if 300 english immigrants moved to your area of poland and undercut local wages?<<
She's Bulgarian not Polish!....Actually hundred of silly British are moving into Bulgaria but they are SPENDING money, and being ripped off at prices way above local rate...so the complete reverse.!.
Please Anglos improve you knoledge of geograpgy"
The Guardian , as well as Gordon Brown don't like the white working class .
"Metropolitan leftists vilifiying an innocent working class pensioner- you are doing your cause an immense amount of damage.
Keep at it!"
"_AT_Neverlander
Just because you're ""sorry you feel the way you do"", doesn't make your statement any better or any less racist. I guess it's that sense of entitlement that comes with the passport that Milena was talking about..."
What is going on with the comments? It's like a maze that you walk through and end up back at the start lol.
"Jim UK, you spout the same old tabloid fed lies about immigration being a problem, immigrants taking jobs, social housing etc.
There is undoubtedly a lack of social housing. Who can we blame for that? Thatcher, for selling so much of it off, and subsequent governments for not doing nearly enough to replenish the stock. Having worked for a Housing Association and had phonecalls from people ranting about immigrants taking all the houses, let me just point out that housing is allocated on a points system, one that certainly does not benefit immigrants.
As for the jobs, well, that's the nature of a globalised economy. If people are willing to come here and work hard then fair play to them. In the early 80s plenty of Brits went to work in mainland Europe due to the lack of jobs here. Remember Aufwiedersehn Pet? The right wing press act as if immigration is one way traffic.
It's easy to blame people who look different for all your problems, as opposed to the distant and even abstract seeming structures of power. The right wing press and powers that be know that they can divide and conquer the poor by whipping up hysteria about asylum seekers and benefits and tax scroungers. Nevermind that Rupert Murdoch is the biggest tax cheat in the country, let's have a go at dole scum and single mums. The problems faced by immigrants such as exploitation in work, poor housing etc are problems faced by all poor people."
"Sorry about the triplicate posting Cif went into temporary meltdown.
Honest I'm not an aspiring politician, you know, with their rule of three, ""tell 'em, tell 'em you;ve told 'em, then tell 'em again,"
"Relax Milena. The sainted Duffy is a pawn in all this. She may have been exposed to all the scare mongering in the tabloid press and then blurted out those unfortunate words in the heat of the moment. I found her words offensive, bigoted and ignorant. In her defence she asked other and better questions, which did not get this much attention.
I've met Croatian and Polish people in the UK and have never seen them flocking, swarming, herding, shoaling or engaged in any other animal behaviours. I don't think Duffy would have used the term flocking if she hadn't read it in the Mail or Express.
She even asked where all these eastern europeans were coming from, which gives you an indication of her poor use of language under pressure. Who knows that she actually meant to say? She certainly gave the impression that she believed that tax-paying eastern europeans were depriving her in some unspecified way.
As a descendant of Irish immigrants I can tell you it is nothing new."
"Jim UK, you spout the same old tabloid fed lies about immigration being a problem, immigrants taking jobs, social housing etc.
There is undoubtedly a lack of social housing. Who can we blame for that? Thatcher, for selling so much of it off, and subsequent governments for not doing nearly enough to replenish the stock. Having worked for a Housing Association and had phonecalls from people ranting about immigrants taking all the houses, let me just point out that housing is allocated on a points system, one that certainly does not benefit immigrants.
As for the jobs, well, that's the nature of a globalised economy. If people are willing to come here and work hard then fair play to them. In the early 80s plenty of Brits went to work in mainland Europe due to the lack of jobs here. Remember Aufwiedersehn Pet? The right wing press act as if immigration is one way traffic.
It's easy to blame people who look different for all your problems, as opposed to the distant and even abstract seeming structures of power. The right wing press and powers that be know that they can divide and conquer the poor by whipping up hysteria about asylum seekers and benefits and tax scroungers. Nevermind that Rupert Murdoch is the biggest tax cheat in the country, let's have a go at dole scum and single mums. The problems faced by immigrants such as exploitation in work, poor housing etc are problems faced by all poor people."
I think people who complain about immigrants-even those who express those concerns in language that can border on the 'racist'-are entitled to have concerns about immigrations. It's not as if they are wrong to say there are no problems, there are no issues, and there is no downside to immigration. It can be very difficult (especially for those not necessarily good at expressing themselves) to express such concerns without at times appearing 'bigoted'.
"I am an immigrant, been here since 1980 almost without a break. GiDu is alright in my book. Mili, you need to ask yourself why you were so emotionally affected by this. Is there something you are not acknowledging? People have their own fights to fight, as far as Gillian is concerned, immigrants make her life harder. Is that what you or I want?
If you're an immigrant, go to a non-immigrant and ask them: Do I make you resentful?"
One last point that seems to have been overlooked - TWITTER IS SHIT!
"People seem to be focussing on one or the other being right, whereas from my point of view they are both wrong. The whole system is flawed!
Having recently lived in an area with a higher concentration of Eastern European immigrants, I can sympathise with many of the people complaining about the influx. Having lost his job in the face of the credit crunch, my partner found it difficult to find a job doing even menial, unskilled jobs in our (high unemployment) area, and when he did find a job working in a food processing factory, he then found it difficult to make any friends, because he was in the small minority of low-level English-speaking operatives. So high was the proportion of Eastern European workers, that many of the signs in the factory were in Polish etc. That in itself surprised me greatly, as I have rarely seen bilingual signs in the UK outside of major cities, and this was a little town out in the sticks.
To further illustrate, I recently set up a translation company in the North East and when consulting with Business Link (a government initiative), they informed me that, had I dealt in Eastern European languages, they could have put me in touch with plenty of clients, since they were languages in highest demand in the area.
The immigrants themselves cannot be blamed however, and on this point they have my sympathy. As someone previously stated, many British people feel low-level jobs ""below them"", and so these positions are easy for the taking for incoming immigrants. Our unemployment system is disastrous, as many people are too well-looked after on the benefits system and so have no desire to even look for a job. Our system should be forcing our own residents into work (e.g. stopping relentless paying of JSA etc. to individuals over many years) and using a points system of sorts to assess skilled migrant workers to fill roles where the skills are lacking in the UK. We also need encourage training in those areas where the skills are lacking within our own population, before we start crying about foreigners taking jobs that we did not take the initiative to obtain the skills for ourselves!
I don't think that people object as such to skilled migrant workers. I feel that people have become hysteric about the situation, with record levels of unemployment alongside a seemingly high influx of immigrants.
In response to the writer's comments about asking an immigrant ""how it feels to be so far away from home, to leave your life behind and start again from scratch, and to be in the middle of a general election where you have no voice"", I'd like to point out that the first two are personal choices taken, so deal with them. I did when I lived in Europe!
As for having a voice in the election, though you don't have a vote, you certainly have a voice! There are plenty of native Brits who don't bother voting, who you could be encouraging to vote for someone you think worthy of voting for! That is, provided you think it's worth voting for any party when they are all corrupt to begin with!
On the subject of taxes, again, you were aware that you were going to be taxed at a higher rate when you came here and accepted a job, so self-indulgent whimpering about being hard done to on that score is ridiculous!
Finally, I do not agree that all EU citizens should simply be granted the right to vote here, just because they are residing in our country. In the longer term, many of those migrants return to their home countries, so why should those people be allowed to vote on aspects which could change our country indefinitely?
Being born here, we have a right to vote on the way our country is governed, the same way you have a right to vote in your own countries. If you want to live here and vote on our policies, then you need to EARN that right, I say!"
"I'm American, and would be the first to point out we have plenty of racist idiots in my country. They are a lot more vocal and theatrical here than in the UK, and our racial problems are more out in the open.
But I generally found British racism to be more suttle, widespread, and pervasive. There seems to be a mindset that ascribes certain characteristics to every nationality. They arent always negative stereotypes, sometimes a person would be complimenting said ethnic group, but even then it would reveal a condescending mode of thought that broke down a persons abilities, personality, etc. on their race/ethnicity.
People in the UK tend to seem very conscious of physical characteristics Americans wouldnt pay a moments attention to. They pay closer attention to someones last name, or suttle hints about someones background that reveal they arent really ""one of us"".
Maybe this comes from being a large Island nation, the Japanese also have a reputation of thinking they are inherently better than everyone else.
I dont mean to imply that everyone in the UK is like this, but I can certainly see how someone who isnt of anglo ancestry might feel uncomfortable living there."
"I suspect, like at least one previous poster, that Brown mistakenly heard the woman asking;
'The East Europeans . . .they're all fucking over here . . . ' etc. - which is how I heard it the first (and second) time on the radio.
Maybe that's because amongst my peer group that is not an unusual use of the vernacular.
And amonst his peer group if ' The Thick of It' is anything to go by . . .
Which is probably why he called the meeting 'a disaster'.
Oh well, I actually feel tempted to vote Labour now; just because I think this is one of the most inconsequential; pieces of election news this year, but it has been leapt on by the Murdoch press and their fellow travellers to catapault a party truly containing bigots and hypocrites (the Tories) into majority Government.
It's amazing the amount of self-righteous hot air spewed out over this incident, and I'm sure that the boss of News at Sky will be in for a hefty bonus later in the year - paid, no doubt, out of the profits accrued after the BBC has been reduced to a regional news organisation by our new masters."
"Hey Brits why not go and look at Milena's country version of the BNP its far more scary:
http://www.vestnikataka.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.15
That page is in english use google translate fuction for Bulgarian pages, look at the piccies...lots of hate talk about gypsies, gays, turks etc..but using far more nasty nouns..
Ah and this is Bulgaria Hilter Jugend party:
http://bg.bgns.net/
These parties far right parties get far more of the vote than in the UK..."
"Is Gilian Duffy really a bigot? What she said was quite vague and could be interpreted as both reasonable or bigoted, depending on your point of view.
The rise of this ""faux"" bigotry or ""reasonable concern"" about things like immigration is based on lies and exaggeration. Politicians, including lobby groups, institutions, charities and other vested interests have realised fear is a prime mover in public opinion. So, almost everything is exaggerated to the point that it seems a threat to us all, in some way. The more people you can convince that they or those they care about are under threat and the worse you can make the threat, then the more effective this strategy will be.
The media, mostly for reasons of wanting a good story, but also for political purposes, are more than happy to, not only voice these concerns, often with only passing regard for their veracity, but pour petrol on any flames that there might be.
Everyday we are assailed by a new ""threat"" or an escalation of an existing threat, much of this is about political control, not the reality of avoiding danger of any kind.
So large numbers of the population are in a semi-constant state of fear, of one thing or another. Is it any wonder that many of those might fall foul of politically motivated lies or exaggeration?
Just as I believe calling Mrs. Duffy a bigot is a vast exaggeration, so the fuss over this private opinion expressed by Brown is also without any real sense of perspective.
It would be just as reasonable to be discussing the invasion of the P.M.s privacy by Sky, who kept recording even though it was clear that Brown was no longer speaking publicly and was in a private conversation?"
That's precious! All the answers are wrong. It was 240v, it's been 230v since 1988.
I was posting mocking comments on this last night but in the cold light in day, I had discussions about this in at work today. Everybody agreed that he made a mistake and said it was made in the heat of the moment. Only one person said that she was a bigot but nobody agreed with him.
"And yet you're quite happy to blog on the 'anti-pope' site and admit to being anti religious. Bigoted?
You complain of not having the vote despite being here 10 years....by your own choice because you refuse to give up your Bulgarian citizenship....so whose fault is that?
The NHS, policing, roads, schools, housing, like money, do not grow on trees, they are funded by people of this country. I am fairly certain if someone walked into your home and demanded you pay for their schooling, housing, food and medical bills you would not take kindly to it...maybe you would...at least the first one, or two, or three...just how many are you prepared to fund personally and put up in your own home?
I imagine when it is up close and personal it might be a bit different.
When the British army had to be sent to the Balkans to help sort out the rival ethnic and cultural factions you might have thought someone in your position would have taken note and learnt something about society, race, culture, conflicting group interests and the resultant bloodshed.
Seems not."
"""But pay higher-rate income tax. I contribute to the UK economy, I contribute to UK society. I probably pay into the tax system more than I get back out of it.""
Milena, what you obviously don't understand, or refuse to understand is that if you (and other eastern Europeans) weren't here there would be a job for a British person to pay ""higher-rate income tax"".
That is what is annoying British people.
Surely British voters should have the right to be able to say so?
Or should the new arrivals be dictating to the people whose homeland this is what and what not they are allowed to say
Surely reaction in Russia or the Czech Republic would be similar under reversed circumstances?
No need to go overboard with the crying one way or another."
"I hope no one forwards this thread to the BNP. Imagine the political capital they could make out of a horde of sneering middle class New Labour Guardianistas villifying a loyal Old Labour voting OAP.
The ship truly is sinking, and you've only got yourselves to blame. And Gordon naturally."
"Fantastic idea BigNowitzki.
Could you imagine Labour or Tories EVER suggesting that? Good ideas may be anathema to those parties but screwing their bestest buddies into actually having to pay (imagine!) for the luxury they live in. You're killing two birds with one home, all new immigrants go into unused second homes (a scandal on it's own when one considers housing problems) and then people in communities which really suffer (and there are tons of them, of all colours) might be allowed to crack on with their job without having to change their plans every five minutes."
"If, as some suspect, Labour's bullshit machine has signed up people to this site to defend the buffoon Brown and denigrate Mrs Duffy it shows a curious attitude toward the very people they are supposed to represent.
Where can they go on polling day?
I suspect that the other Nick will do well out of this."
brown believes in multiculturalism,thats why he as got a open door policy on immigration,and brown is not interested on how much it cost in benefits,not just for immigrants for are own people who cannot find work as well,unemployment is rising fast,and browns trying to fool us all that he as a tougher immigration law in place.
"I seriously laughed out loud for the first time at this point.

I stopped laughing thinking I was a victim of an April Fool at this point.

Even Jesus nearly wept at this stage.
Good God but you need to wise up and grow a set."
"As a central european living in my own country, I think this article is a bit rich and I know 2 wrongs don't make a right but...
The author must know what it's like in central europe and how we treat immigrants.
Typical and common examples -
Slovak women work in Czech supermarkets. Slovak is an almost identical language to Czech. I have witnessed on several occasions Czechs refusing to answer the Slovak - saying they don't understand them.
West Europeans are often treated with little more than contempt in most public offices and are often blackmailed by police for trumped up offences.
Ukrainian - illegal immigrants paid almost non existant wages for some of the most difficult jobs in construction, road building, etc.
There are bigots - and worse in all countries so cool down.
However - the Brits should cool it also - all countries suffer from immigartion and I dare say that as the world economy evolves - you may find yourselves having to emigrate for work.."
She probably really wanted to ask about Asians (Muslims) but was frightened of being labelled a "racist". This just shows how far Gordon Brown has lost touch with ordinary, normal, working-class people, that he doesn't recognise one when he sees one!
"I am sorry for both Mrs. Duffey and Mr. Brown. When I listen to Mrs.Duffey, I hear the echo of the media. I am an immigrant myself, but I do not think she is against immigrants. But her borrowed vocabulary (flocking) is xenophobic. And that word, I believe, triggered the word 'bigot' in Mr.Brown's mind.
Being an immigrant in this country is not easy and so is being in the working class and being disabled, and many more."
"MiddleEnglandLefty
29 Apr 2010, 3:38PM
SoAnnoyed
29 Apr 2010, 3:29PM
_AT_LordSummerisle
My, there DO appear to be a large number of posters with little to no previous posting history queueing up here today to call Gillian Duffy a bigot.
Thanks for pointing that out, LSi, because I have been in shock since yesterday at the vilification of that woman by so many on these threads.
The accounts are obviously all being set up by Millbank, or wherever it is that the Labour media bunker is situated these days. Shameful.
More paranoid hysteria, I've just clicked on a load of comments supporting Duffy that are from first time posters, get a grip.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again with all due respect that comment by Lord S ( which when you look at the posts recently is visibly true ) is no more than all those other posts sugegsting Cameron and Sky set the whole thing up"
"_AT_MiddleEnglandLefty

That may be true and I'll take your word for it, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. The dark arts of sock puppetry are practiced by all sides of the political divide."
"Is Gilian Duffy really a bigot? What she said was quite vague and could be interpreted as both reasonable or bigoted, depending on your point of view.
The rise of this ""faux"" bigotry or ""reasonable concern"" about things like immigration is based on lies and exaggeration. Politicians, including lobby groups, institutions, charities and other vested interests have realised fear is a prime mover in public opinion. So, almost everything is exaggerated to the point that it seems a threat to us all, in some way. The more people you can convince that they or those they care about are under threat and the worse you can make the threat, then the more effective this strategy will be.
The media, mostly for reasons of wanting a good story, but also for political purposes, are more than happy to, not only voice these concerns, often with only passing regard for their veracity, but pour petrol on any flames that there might be.
Everyday we are assailed by a new ""threat"" or an escalation of an existing threat, much of this is about political control, not the reality of avoiding danger of any kind.
So large numbers of the population are in a semi-constant state of fear, of one thing or another. Is it any wonder that many of those might fall foul of politically motivated lies or exaggeration?
Just as I believe calling Mrs. Duffy a bigot is a vast exaggeration, so the fuss over this private opinion expressed by Brown is also without any real sense of perspective.
It would be just as reasonable to be discussing the invasion of the P.M.s privacy by Sky, who kept recording even though it was clear that Brown was no longer speaking publicly and was in a private conversation?"
"Milena
I'm sorry that you feel the way you do and you should have no reason to be. You can call it an island mentality if you wish but there are a lot of people who feel exactly like Mrs Duffy that it does seem like we have been invaded in some parts of the country.
Migrants make a huge contribution to the economy. Most of the landwork and food processing and packing industry where I am from would collapse without them. What gets people upset is that this has come from our membership of the EU which when we joined in 1973 was comprised of the leading economies of europe and so there was little resultant immigration by us joining. However when former eastern bloc countries joined the labour pool was expanded hugely by educated people like yourself who earned a pittance in comparison to your skills and knowledge and saw the opportunity to earn a lot more by doing relatively menial and undemanding work that paid better than their skills really should warrant and took over jobs that were done in the past by people born and bred here. Its this section of the community that now feels the strain because they don;t have skills to do better paid work and can't or won't get lower paid jobs as they've been taken or they don't want to work as they can live off benefits better.
Its the fact that its a system that cannot be changed that allows things to be as they are that gets people angry which sneering media and political types then label as bigoted or racist when in my opinion its not the case.
Once again I'm sorry you feel the way you do. All you and your fellow migrants have done is to work the system to your benefit and thats no fault of yours."
"Milena,
I can't quite get over your reaction.

Actually genuinely broke down in tears? But did you really, truthfully break down in tears too?

Maybe you were?

Courage to tweet? Oh please....

Maybe the other 49 didn't think she was a bigoted woman?

It sounds like you well on the way already?

You must spend a lot of your life angry?

So you didn't feel angry when you first heard the comments then?

You know what? I don't have a vote here in Spain either, and I guess Spanish politicians probably don't care much about me either - though I can't say it ever bothered me....

Oh Lord.... Here you are writing a column in a national newspaper, and you use it to wonder how you could get some leverage?
You don't think that it's a wasted opportunity?

I keep asking myself if you're serious - actually genuinely serious....

What did she ever do to you? Gillian Duffy didn't make you feel like this - you've worked yourself into a tizzy all on your own.

Could you elaborate on the 'landing yourself in jail' bit? I'm mystified....

You want to try travelling on one some time....

I think most of us do. I am an immigrant, I'm the grandchild of immigrants, and I know as many immigrants in the UK as native born citizens.

No need - I'll ask myself.
For the record, I don't think Gillian Duffy is a bigot - I think she's worried, probably not very well informed, and not very good at expressing her concerns.
Now what's your excuse for your vitriolic attack on her? What do you think she would feel if she read this article?"
".
You make it sound as though immigrants move to a new country out of the goodness of their altruistic hearts!
My parents moved countries twice, and they did it one purely selfish reason - a better life for themselves and their children."
I'm disgusted Gordon Brown apologised for calling a biggot a biggot, I would have actually respected him if he'd of said it to her face
"_AT_Toftyatno10

Certainly not. They're not my cup of tea by any means. I can, however, understand why some people are moving towards them when mainstream politicians are so quick to write off their genuine concerns as bigotry."
"_AT_dogsvomit
The BNP do not have ""genuine concerns"" they are a bunch of rascists and holocaust deniers and whilst they have the right to air their ""views"" that does not mean we do not have the right to call them what they are and condemn their vile beliefs.."
"HappHazzard
Did you even read what I said? This isn't a discussion about the minimum wage or how people need to be paid enough in order to live (which, of course, I agree with you about), this is about how some (yes, I said some, not all) Brits would rather be out of work than do what they consider to be 'menial' jobs. I never once mentioned pay or conditions of such jobs, just that there were many immigrants who were happy to do them and some Brits who would rather not."
"The point Mrs Duffy might have made if she had been more articulate or had time to think about it (or had been give access to better education instead of leaving school at 14, probably, as 'factory fodder') is that 'mass immigration' was never a government policy. It was something imposed from above with no democratic mandate. And also, like many things in this country, there was no actual policy or planning involved in it, no expansion of infrastructure, housing, etc.
I personally don't agree with the capitalistic use of cheap (disenfranchised) immigrant labour as a solution to a country's economic problems - problems which are really down to (taking short cuts!) a lack of training, a lack of investment, and at another level, a lack of respect by society for people (even teachers) in this country who perform the less glamorous and 'menial tasks' (as Mrs Duffy did in her working life.) At the other extreme I don't like the idea of a 'points system' that poaches the 'best minds' from economically less successful (or less fortunate) countries and so deprives them of the minds that might help them improve things.
There's a mythology that Britain stands for fair play and fairness, where's the evidence?"
"_AT_AllyF

Well the choices seem to be between that and forming a mob and hounding them out, and obviously you're not advocating that. I don't see what's so offensive - that's exactly what the White British community had to do when all your black and Asian neighbours arrived. Make an effort to educate themselves and understand the changes.
Besides, what's to understand - you know the situation already. There's cheap housing in your area - these people are EU citizens perfectly entitled to take advantage of it - some of your neighbours are discombobulated by the resulting change in demographic.
And? The onus is on them to further their understanding and in that way decrease their confusion. Where did 'how fucking dare you' come from?"
"Yet more Middle Class contempt for the working class.
The working class live in the areas where immigrants are dumped and herded into by the government. The local services in these areas are overstretched.
In the leafy Middle Class suburbs, there are very few immigrants using the local services, and they certainly don't have to compete for housing and jobs with them. In fact, they benefit most from cheap labour.
I say, place asylum seekers in the empty second homes of rich people, and house them in Middle Class areas rather than sink estates. Those who benefit from cheap labour can pay for them as well.
As for immigrants who come here to work, local services should be better funded in those places where they reside.
Essentially, it is the government's fault."
"the london media ie the guardian has picked on a 66 year old widow and villified her to protect a politician.
This lady was a labour supporter and had some concerns, she did not seek out the prime minister and unfortunately for her she did not express her concerns in a way that the metropolitian elite would.
Ie she should have said why did you say only 15,000 eastern europeans would come when in fact nearly a million have.
Is it right that many individuals especially in the BME community have faced a real decrease in wages such as builders, taxi drivers and other low skill occupations. This is a fact as individuals i know can attest to wage rates dropping and even self employed mini cab drivers i speak to each week can confirm that it is getting harder to make a living. Many of these individuals come from the BME community.
I see this as a labour way which has become the natural way to attact and to destroy the reputation of any individual who disagrees with you.
By the way it was gordon who stated ""british jobs for british workers"" and a voter asks him about this and is attacked."
"Perhaps the author (and the Labour drones) could just let us know what exactly is the politically correct way to ask the Prime Minister about immigration (and get 10 seconds of a valuable answer).
It'll be a lot easier if you could publish the acceptable code to avoid Gordon's embarrassment AND we could discuss an issue without the accusations flying."
Such a relief to find your article after a day of listening to the worlds media agreeing that GB should have apologised. Nonsense, her views are ridiculous and have no place in a country that is wonderful because we have a diverse range of people living in it.
Milena, I have posted your piece on facebook and asked all my British friends here in the UK to read it. I am an American immigrant here in the UK, although with no intention of becoming a British subject. I also work hard and pay loads of taxes here, and I am resigned to having no vote and little say in the political system. Your thoughts really resonated with me. Coming from a nation of immigrants, I am unreservedly pro-immigration and I find the British attitude toward the subject ranges from blithely hypocritical to sickeningly xenophobic. The attitude towards me, and other Americans living here, is very odd, because on the one hand they admire us and the government seems to copy everything the US govt does (especially the stupid things) but still they treat me as if I were a little thick (and I assure you I am not, not even a little!) I always think, similarly to you, if it's this bad for me, how bad is it for the poor, the unemployed, the dodgily documented, the non-English speaker, the dark-skinned? (And a few African-American friends of mine have experienced blatant discrimination in travelling, profiling, and from the immigration authority.) Yes, an honest debate on immigration would be a welcome change, but instead they focus only on GB's "gaffe". Bleh.
"I really like Mrs Duffy. She seems like a good, solid citizen who cares about others, and who has a pretty sharp take on political and economic issues. I like the fact that she wasn't afraid to (politely but forthrightly) speak her mind to the Prime Minister.
The face that her innocent, well-founded question caused the writer of this piece to break down into 'great having sobs' makes me chuckle.
Since you're such a delicate flower, Ms Popova, perhaps Britain isn't the place for you. There's a frighteningly large portion of the population who tend to speak their mind."
"As a fellow EU immigrant...you've got to get real about this. Intolerance and bigotry are natural human conditions and while that of course doesn't excuse actions or words in that spirit, it puts it in context.
Is it really so awful that a simple, naive old biddy (who may or may not be bigoted) has said that? How many immigrants do you think she knows? What do you think she knows about immigration policies or the econimic realities of life? If at all, be angry about the fact that the UK government has not been proactive about engaging with its population about immigration, allowing a raft of prejudices and falsehoods to grow.
On the flipside, consider these:
1. It is a fact that there are, in some areas, a disproportionately large number of Eastern European immigrants (just as in other areas, there may be loads of Asian/Black/Blue/Pink immigrants). Why can somebody not question that?
2. I don't know (perhaps I missed it in your article) which part of Eastern Europe you are from, but what sort of reaction do you think a bigoted comment about the Roma or about black people made by a local in, for example, Czechoslovakia or Poland, would have generated?"
"_AT_Milena Popova: How dare you. How utterly, utterly dare you. I can't better AllyF's post but I will still tell you of my deep, visceral, anger at reading what you wrote:

You are the single most condescending person to have ever written an article for CiF. I am still reeling in shock that The Guardian would publish a post with that paragraph in it.
I am an immigrant to the UK, too - but you know what? I became a naturalised citizen. I have a British passport. More importantly, I have the vote. I vote as a British citizen in all elections. I have a house, friends, and family here and I have made the UK my home for the rest of my life.
And you come here, don't bother to get citizenship, and wail like a spoilt child that all 60 million UK citizens hold exactly the same views as one single person who happened to be on the telly. To tell you what I truly think of you would get me modded off CiF, so I will simply say that you need professional assistance with your attitude as an immigrant to your host country."
In Russia, there's a joke:....We've unloaded all those ungrateful parasite countries like Poland onto the West, now they even have that cheapest of Harlots Bulgaria...Ah and the idiots are even in our old quagmire of Afganistan.....
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity

Try not to confuse asylum seekers with other migrants. Of course asylum seekers don't need to financially support themselves. Those who simply wish to migrate to the UK do."
"Look at the Bulgarian diversity in action against their own citizens....
Can you imagine what these thugs would do if there was a wave of outsiders
http://kurdjali.tk/"
"_AT_ exiledlondoner
Thank god somebody said that!! The whole thing is just unnecessarily hysterical! I can picture her on the Jeremy Kyle show breaking down into her sobs haha"
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity

Try not to confuse asylum seekers with other migrants. Of course asylum seekers don't need to financially support themselves. Those who simply wish to migrate to the UK do."
Do you think Rochdale is a "wonderful" place to live?
Yup. When a proper historical accounting is done, it will be seen that class prejudice was at the root of the pro-immigration, pro-multicult mania. The Fabian types always despised the working classes but had to pretend to care about them. Immigration finally gave them the excuse they needed to be able to unleash their contempt on the proletarian masses and feel good about it at the same time.
"oh are we still talking about the straw man debate argument over a seemingly extreme right wing issue broadcast by a right wing media in an election where we have the choice between a right wing party or a right wing party or a right wing party ?
Seeing as how that petty little simpleton storm in a teacup suits all the Neo parties so conveniently because it means none of the Neo-Trio have to talk about any REAL ISSUES it means it suits all of them perfectly.
The perfect distraction. The perfect smokescreen.
Hiding the question of: Why is there only the ""choice"" of three right wing parties?"
Whoops. Excuse the multiple posts. There seems to be something wrong with the posting system for this thread. Maybe it's just the volume.
"maraq 4:57
Its the way you tell 'em..."
I agree with all you say. As soon as I saw the news unfolding yesterday, I thought, why are they harranging Gordon Brown and NOT Gillian Duffy for her comments? I blogged about it: http://sandy-watson.blogspot.com/2010/04/bigotgate.html
"I understand your feeling, because I am disillusioned with this media immigrant bashing which is very prevalent in Britain.
But its hard to put all the responsability on the ""Bigoted woman"". She has been moulded by the media. Not just her, tonnes of other Britons too. Including my father, who himself too was once an immigrant. I blame the media, for adding a aura of negativity around immigration, feeding the average British mind. But certain sections of the media do this deliberately, and they fully understand there affect on the common mind."
"My father was an Eastern European immigrant to the UK; he joined the RAF and played a small but significant role in the defeat of fascism. After the war he was offered the choice of low-paid manual work or sodding off back to Eastern Europe: he chose manual work (was not too keen on Eastern Europe after a two year spell in a Siberian concentration camp between 1939 and 1942). He deeply respected, appreciated and lauded the benefits of British society (council housing, health care, free education, a decent wage if you worked all hours of the day and night - he did after all support two families, one in England and one in Eastern Europe with constant remittances) and never had a bad word to say about his adopted country - however, many of the British he had to work with and serve were not so generous towards him, and he swallowed their racial abuse without ever falling to that same, low level of ignorance and xenophobia.
However, my own anger at what I witnessed at first-hand of British bigotry has never really left me: seeing the person you most love and respect treated like shit leaves its mark on your whole being. I now live far away from the UK, have done so for almost 20 years, and would never come back to live in your country, not even if you paid me.
The British have roamed the world dominating, exploiting, abusing, creating wars to suit their geo-political and economic requirements, financing and benefiting from the slave trade, inventing germ warfare in North America, and concentration camps in South Africa, and in more recent times of course we have the highly questionable involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not forgetting the British arms trade, and all the authoritarian shites the Brits have helped prop up around the world (Indonesia, Burma, Saudi Arabia to name but a few).
I'm afraid there are lots of Mrs Duffies spewing out similar vitriol; there always have been, and there probably always will?"
Interesting piece at Salon
"james317a
You are right that mass immigration was not government policy, you are wrong that it was ""imposed from above"". Migration between countries is the result of millions of individual decisions, it's not something that can be commanded.
Anti-immigration people keep going on about the need for a debate about immigration. If this is a serious point and not just code for a xenophobic rant then one important thing to do is to understand the reasons behind those millions of individual decisions, what were the changes that made people act one way rather than another, what can governments realistically do to manage the situation. Trouble is, try and have that debate and you get swamped by the Mr Angry's who don't know and don't care and certainly have no intention of addressing their ignorance."
Yep, the advice "better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it" is largely lost on many British.
"God, what an appalling, whiny little rant this is
As usual, the Mash neatly skews it and many of the comments
I'm sure they won't mind me reproducing...
""Meaning-wise, 'bigot' has been on shaky ground for quite some time and, like most bad things, it's entirely the fault of The Guardian.
Guardian readers think anyone who doesn't love The Wire is a bigot. They think anyone who hasn't had an interesting experience in a two-star hotel in Ho Chi Minh City is a bigot. They think anyone who doesn't like Greco-Javanese fusion food is a bigot.
""Meanwhile, anyone who hasn't read a book about the right-wing media conspiracy against Hezbollah is the absolute worst kind of bigot and of course they now think I'm an appalling bigot for pointing that out."""
The reason so many people from Eastern Europe flocked here is that the labour government approved an open door policy expecting 40,000 or so instead of 500,000 plus. When France , Spain and Germany did not give eastern europeans the same rights it was inevitable that we would be flooded. This is Blair and Browns heritage and in hard times we will all pay for this in many ways
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"Milena - I found your article interesting reading, but how very dare you speak out of line with the established parameters of free speech in Cif! The cheek of it!!
Sybantcho's

wouldn't be as acceptable as it seems to be in respect of ""people like you"" if applied to a black or asian person complaining about institutional racism. It would be roundly condemned. Some strange relativism going on. That you felt this sickening is the point.
This election has proved once and for all that we can't have an open and honest debate about anything anymore. The semantic and semiotic thought police and intense media scrum and 'LIVE!' blogging is destroying any semblance of debate or discussion. I despair.

wolfiesback. Please tell me you're being ironic. The media aren't attaching her. Jesus."
Alternatively gkelly, that huge chip so many "white working class" carry around on their shoulders might be the root.
"wolfiesback
""Is it right that many individuals especially in the BME community have faced a real decrease in wages such as builders, taxi drivers and other low skill occupations. This is a fact as individuals i know can attest to wage rates dropping and even self employed mini cab drivers i speak to each week can confirm that it is getting harder to make a living. Many of these individuals come from the BME community. ""
Then they will have parents and grandparents who themselves undercut the the locals wages when they started working here, no? Or not? I don't know so I'm asking a question, not stating a fact.
As someone who uses African run mini cabs to get me home after a night out I already find it incredibly expensive - on what grounds should I seek out a firm charging more?
I do not pick Africans deliberately - they are simply there at 4 in the morning and ready and willing to run me back to South London. I'd get in a white English geezers car if he were sat there.
I'm unaware of ever hearing a White English person saying: ""Phone a cab - and make sure it's the most expensive cab company in town as I like the driver to be on at least 40 quid an hour.""
The African mini cab firms will be replaced by others, on a long enough timeline, I guess."
"We have had over a few short years the largest influx of people in British history. It matters not who they are or how lovely they are. The author is suggesting that many peoples experience and concern must not be spoken about or thought about. But we should think about it. The more people we have the more unsustainable our numbers become. We are already reliant on energy and food imports and more than twice our sustainable population number. Oil will become more expensive and we need it to live.
Two things were worrying about GBs outburst.
1 that he could not even think about our need to balance people and what we use. How will we ever do it if the EU ebbs and flows. How will we ever just plan for services not to mention afford them?
2 He seemed not ""very well"" and unable to cope. These outbursts happen a lot. I think he has been depressed off and on for years poor man but it not encouraging in a PM."
Good grief - what a load of bigoted stereotyping .......
and yours is nothing but an ignorant racist rant hammy966
"Milena. You say you feel disenfranchised but believe me so do many, many British people - especially on this issue of immigration. You will read comments on CiF that immigration is always raised at every election. To a certain extent this is true - but only for it to be quickly slapped down as racist. We have never had a full and honest public debate on the subject. It is largely highjacked by the BNP on the one hand and the extreme left on the other.
There ARE many issues connected with immigration which concern lots of people - and quite rightly. And they have nothing to do with racial identity. I have Polish friends and have nothing but good will towards them but this is an issue of numbers. For a start when Poland and other East European countries came into the EU we were told by our Government that around 13,000 people would come here to work. In fact - and not just on the word of tabloid papers - around 300,000 people came in. Yes, we all have stories of ""Polish plumbers"" who work hard and do a very good job and contribute lots to this country but there is a downside too. The need for extra housing has grown and grown. Where I live the local authority is building estates on back gardens and flood plains. Many employers have used immigrant labour to pay the minimum wage where, before, they had to pay a more decent wage. Unemployed British - especially those who have little or no prospect of a skilled job - understandably resent the sort of jobs they might once have got going to foreigners. Hospitals are under pressure. A school I know had to handle a sudden influx of more than 40 Polish children in one go. They learn the English language very quickly and are mostly lovely children but they all add to the pressure on our already-stretched facilities. We are a small island. How many more people can we take in without causing serious social strain?"
And I apologise for sharing the air of this country so the likes of hammy966 can breathe ........
"I'm afraid, unlike the poster assumes, I do not know any of the thousands of eastern european migrant workers who have moved into my city over the last decade socially - many do not have sufficient language skills to get the simlilar types of office-based roles which I work at (when I can get it). In fact, judging from pesonal experience at the local Tesco's, they dont have the language skills to be able do mdo the jobs which they work at.
I do however, have a brother-in-law who trained (at his own expense) as an electrician - but couldn't afford to take jobs at the post-training rates offered and still pay his mortgage, because he was undercut by EU migrant workers.
I do have a neice who, given her non-academic focus, probably wont even be able to get her first job due to being undercut by migrant workers. I care about the prospects for her, far more than them.
Now, I appreciate that many of the migrants take jobs which British workers wont take. I would say that them not being filled would not always be a bad thing, if the effect of taking those jobs is to drive down wage rates such that the individuals born and brought up here, who have no opportunity to migrate, cant earn a living wage doing them. And, while it may benefit some to have plumbing work, or carpentry done at cut rates, I do feel that it simply displaces individuals who I do know, who were working in these trades, out of business and onto benefits.
And I feel that the problem could be attacked from both ends - we could generate tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of individuals who might be prepared to take on menial minimum-wage tasks here in the UK. My proposal (which should be first on the list of spending cuts for ANY new government) is to stop completely benefits to individuals who can be considered to be still to be supported by their parents - the 20-something layabouts who still sponge completely off mummy and daddy but yet are entitled to £50pw JSA from the government despite never having worked. Seems fair - I get nothing myself, despite having worked for over 20 years (unfortunately not more than one out of the two most recent) as I am deemed to be totally supported by my wife.
At least they might be too busy to slate a 60+ woman who has contributed more than they ever have, with stupid 'right on' comments, simply for using an inelegant turn of phrase like 'flocking'.
If it was bigoted to think that simply raising the GDP of the UK marginally by using cheap immigrant labour, while reducing the average income for virtually everyone else, is not beneficial to more than a small minority... I'd own up to it proudly, and would vote BNP instead."
the point is that british people have never liked immigrants. It started with the Romans and then through Picts, Angles,Saxons, French et al. The only people tolerant of immigrants are other immigrants however long they have been here,be it 1000years or last week. This new influx may look peaceful but jobs are being lost because unscrupulous employers can make more money by paying under minimum pay, much like the aristos would have welcomed Hitler to keep the paysanos in line. So yes peaceful immigration but there is an undercurrent of depriving the indigenous just as there has been since 55 BC but without the killing. It ain't good.
"Look at Milena's country lovely Bulgaria a its Hitler Jugend-
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_32FEB60Zmv4/RtgmkC6vrgI/AAAAAAAABM8/GHL3w_AFPrs/s400/gvardia_rasate.JPG
Milena love you really are a first class hypocrite....!
And remember Bulgaria has had no migration its population is falling rapidly...Bulgarians are just sore since Moscow cut the subsidies, and their little mafia state has never recovered..."
If people were prepared to have "a full and honest public debate" on immigration then they wouldn't have been in a scrum to slap down Nick Clegg for suggesting a practical alternative to having long term illegal immigrants permanently in the black economy.
"Hmm, since I left school I've had 22 years of continuous employment. I've dragged myself out of bed and gone off to work an eight hour day around 5,000 times.
When did I become middle class?"
"I'm afraid, unlike the poster assumes, I do not know any of the thousands of eastern european migrant workers who have moved into my city over the last decade socially - many do not have sufficient language skills to get the simlilar types of office-based roles which I work at (when I can get it). In fact, judging from pesonal experience at the local Tesco's, they dont have the language skills to be able do mdo the jobs which they work at.
I do however, have a brother-in-law who trained (at his own expense) as an electrician - but couldn't afford to take jobs at the post-training rates offered and still pay his mortgage, because he was undercut by EU migrant workers.
I do have a neice who, given her non-academic focus, probably wont even be able to get her first job due to being undercut by migrant workers. I care about the prospects for her, far more than them.
Now, I appreciate that many of the migrants take jobs which British workers wont take. I would say that them not being filled would not always be a bad thing, if the effect of taking those jobs is to drive down wage rates such that the individuals born and brought up here, who have no opportunity to migrate, cant earn a living wage doing them. And, while it may benefit some to have plumbing work, or carpentry done at cut rates, I do feel that it simply displaces individuals who I do know, who were working in these trades, out of business and onto benefits.
And I feel that the problem could be attacked from both ends - we could generate tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of individuals who might be prepared to take on menial minimum-wage tasks here in the UK. My proposal (which should be first on the list of spending cuts for ANY new government) is to stop completely benefits to individuals who can be considered to be still to be supported by their parents - the 20-something layabouts who still sponge completely off mummy and daddy but yet are entitled to £50pw JSA from the government despite never having worked. Seems fair - I get nothing myself, despite having worked for over 20 years (unfortunately not more than one out of the two most recent) as I am deemed to be totally supported by my wife.
At least they might be too busy to slate a 60+ woman who has contributed more than they ever have, with stupid 'right on' comments, simply for using an inelegant turn of phrase like 'flocking'.
If it was bigoted to think that simply raising the GDP of the UK marginally by using cheap immigrant labour, while reducing the average income for virtually everyone else, is not beneficial to more than a small minority... I'd own up to it proudly, and would vote BNP instead."
"This is an argument about the failure of mainstream politics to address the fears of poor communities as it is about the massive divide between rich and poor in this country. Their anger should be focussed on the business leaders who build their vast profits on cheap labour. Not the poor men and women just trying to make a better life for themselves that end up living a near slave like existence.
Surely Britain has been a multicultural society since the Romans starting coming here for their holidays. The only problem is the government got caught on the back foot with the accession of the A8 countries. All politicians have consistently failed to get to grips with the concerns of those people who dont have foreign workers living in their communities. According to the recent report by the IPPR if more people lived next door to foreign nationals they would worry about them less. Is it not important for communities to integrate and come together socially, why isn't the government doing something about this. Or the communities themselves.
Since the influx the government has not gathered adequate statistics about people coming and going. I have heard anecdotal evidence that people tend to come and work here for a few years and then go home. With the downturn in the economy they are less likely to come anyway. But we don't have a true picture because of a lack of statistics. So the racists can make up whatever they want and pander to the fears of people already feeling alienated. When you are alienated and feel like you are getting the dirty end of the stick you might accept any simplistic answer as the reason for your pain.
I believe that if you are desperate enough to work you will do anything, too many people have the ""i'm not doing that"" attitude, fair enough but if you will not do it then someone else will.
If you are willing to come here work hard and pay your dues then we should be welcoming you. Also i thought the migrant workforce provide a knock on effect for businesses to employ more skilled labour up the chain as previously argued here
If Brown thought she was a bigot he should have the courage of his convictions and take a stand. I work in the NHS and its like the United Nations which is one of the reasons that I think it is so fantastic. People from all over the world come here and give 100% care to people as if they were their own family its amazing. Often in difficult circumstances and having to put up with various levels of bigotry themselves. I think the NHS would be a lot poorer without them. If ""indigenous"" people dont want to look after their own with the compassion that i have seen time and again from international workers then fair enough. We need more of that empathy in our society anyway. He should show true leadership and take this argument full on and explain why Britain is a better place because of the sacrifices of people from other countries. Not to mention the Polish Pilots that helped us win the battle of Britain and who the BNP put on their propaganda last year. We laughed about that in our house. Or the many hundreds of thousands of commonwealth soldiers during the second world war. Or the Gurkha, or people from other British dependent territories who serve in our armed forces today.
They all make great sacrifices to come here, to work here and contribute to local services and NHS through TAX and NI just like the rest of us, and not only that some of them are even willing to die for us too.
It might be a shame what GB said but its a bigger shame that he has not properly dealt with the issues in the first place."
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"gkelly
""Immigration finally gave them the excuse they needed to be able to unleash their contempt on the proletarian masses and feel good about it at the same time.""
To be fair to the ""Fabian types"" when my ex-boss married a women he met while working abroad then they came back to this country to build a life and family the ""fabian types"" didn't seem interested in this working class man's choices.
Do you think airports are built by ""fabian types"" as a way of undermining local holidays, slyly encouraging the working classes to contract skin cancer and food poisoning abroad?
Is pretty much everything a fabian conspiracy to kill off the working classes, really?
Like:
unemployment - a useful tool to destroy the spirit of the working classes
employment - a useful tool to destroy the spirit of the working classes"
"This is from Milena's country:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_32FEB60Zmv4/RtgmkC6vrgI/AAAAAAAABM8/GHL3w_AFPrs/s400/gvardia_rasate.JPG
discracful isn't it?"
"_AT_Milena:

How dare you say something like that about someone of whom you know so little. Your whole piece is a childish rant but it veers into bullying right there - and dare I say, you've shown yourself up for being a 'bigot' yourself for the implied assumptions behind your statement.
And it's especially rich that you mention the citizenship test, since you yourself have so flagrantly NOT taken it. Or if you have, you haven't passed it. How do I know this? You identified yourself as 'disenfranchised' (as if someone took away your right to vote, hmmph) which I take to mean that you are not someone with voting rights as a UK citizen. Correct?
Guardian, you publish so many things that are appalling for a wide variety of reasons, but this particular piece is just plain trolling for hits on your part. There may be a sober point to make in the general direction of this author's piece but her piece as it is written is shockingly bad."
"_AT_ Wardinator

For the record what Mrs Duffy said was:

Which doesn't sound like ""fucking Eastern Europeans"" to me (nor if you do actually take the trouble to listen to what she said, clue: youtube, given her intonation, could it be misheard as ""where are they all fucking from"", before that one is trotted out.)
What she said was one sentence in the middle of four minutes of forthright discussion with Gordon, such as ...

... which are all pretty reasonable topics in the context of an election.
I think it was the 4 minutes of direct un-scripted questioning Gordon didn't like, not the one 8 second reference to immigrants. I think he used the word 'bigoted' in the sense of 'opinionated'.
""She's just the sort of bigoted woman that says she used to vote labour"" ... that would be one who believes in ""education, health service, and looking after people who are vulnerable""."
"Mrs Duffy did not say anything bigoted. She made her points in a reasonable and measured way. Immigration wasn't even her main point.
You guys need to face the facts that there is a great deal of concern about unmeasured immigration into this country - not from racists but from working people.
The inability of Guardian journos, Governments et al to face up to this will only serve to fuel bigotry."
"Well done Milena,
I hope you saw OZKT29B's excellent reply to AllyF's post."
Lots of sock puppets kicking around this thread.
"Good article, Milena, something that needed saying.
I write as one of the many thousands of British citizens living and working in Eastern Europe - the Czech Republic in this case. I enjoy a high level of acceptance here, and I would like to think that those making the opposite journey could be similarly accepted. As thinking, feeling human beings we are all in this together. But it's not so, evidently. Shame on those who make no attempt to empathize with the stranger and let the tabloid press do their thinking - I use the term loosely, you understand - for them."
Good job these lot will be out soon, they were on the tip of inventing thoughtcrime.
"I've still not figured out what Ms Duffy said that was meant to be bigoted.
""flocking eastern europeans"" is an odd phrase, but, while it might not be true, it doesn't appear to bigoted.
I assume her point is that very large numbers of eastern european immigrants have arrived in her area, and that that is a bad thing.
That simply isn't bigotry. It might be bad because the roads haven't expanded to match the population increase. It might be bad because her neighbours are now all 30yr olds working 16hr days that don't speak good English, instead of retired 60yr olds who she can have a chat with over the garden fence.
I'm baffled by the fuss.
But I'm more baffled at the idea that any one person, immigrant, european, eastern or otherwise could possibly give a damn one way or the other what one old woman thinks. Weird."
"I totally agree Milena...thank you for having the courage to write this.
What also annoys me when a British person has cheek to tell us why we immigrants should not be offended...espically if they have no idea what it is like to be an immigrant."
"Milena, you have made a commitment to your partner.
When will you make a commitment to the UK and seek citizenship ?
When you become pregnant make sure you move to Rochdale or some similar town and live the life of Mrs Duffy and her neighbours. You could gain a degree from the experience and possibly a greater understanding of the concerns of people like Mrs Duffy.
You know not what you speak, and like too many posters on here you have judged a person on a few words she spoke which means you are a ...."
"That sort of language the microphone lady spoke yesterday was bigoted and Daily Mail-esque, and frankly, GB's appreciation of the situation was accurate.
But now we have a Bigot's defense league starting up, and it's going to get nasty in this country."
"Reading some of the comments and rereading the article and I have to say again, like the German car industry to the UK government for the car scrappage scheme, the BNP will be thanking truly from the bottom of their hearts to cif for scoring such an own goal and giving credence to their arguments.
It's going to be painful to watch the slow agonising death of New-Labour as it implodes from within."
"Deborama

Sadly typical US hypocrisy and self-flattery. Your home country has a _far_ more restrictive immigration policy than the UK does, you are in _no_ position to take the moral high-ground. For most of the last decade the UK took as many asylum seekers each year as the US, despite being 1/40th of the size, and also took as many legal immigrants each year as the US did, in absolute numbers, despite being a much smaller country.
The US has _extremely_ restrictive rules on immigration, contrary to its self-perpetuated mythology. To get in you have to either have in-demand skills (and en employer willing to sponsor you) or be an illegal who will work cheap but have no legal rights. And that's despite the fact the US has 1/10th of our population density. Your country is, to a first approximation, empty - nobody lives there - yet you put up huge barriers for anyone wanting to come in. I note that you can now be arrested in Arizona just for ""looking foreign"".
So what if you don't have a vote here? What earthly point do you think that makes? Neither would a Brit working in the US. Do you think that Americans are special and should have rights they don't accord to others? If not, what the hell point are you trying to make?
Has the US opened its borders to Eastern Europe, or done anything similar? No. Do you offer free health care to citizens of other countries? No.
Your country leeches cheap labour from South America while ensuring those immigrants cannot claim anything from the US state and can be removed when it suits.
So put your own house in order before you lecture others.
I have nothing against East Europeans, I think this current row is a storm in a tea-cup, but one thing I can't stand is self-praising Yanks."
"You call yourself disenfranchised...but in fact this is a position you choose, having decided to keep your Bulgarian citizenship rather than give it up and take British.
You also blog on the 'antipope' blog...and admit to being anti-religious...which you warn us of..'.Have been known to display strong political opinions and a pointed distaste for religion. You have been warned'...so no bigotry there then.
Perhaps an East European should be more aware of the dangers of too much mixing of ethnicities, religions and politics. When the British Army had to help sort out the Balkans did you learn nothing? Look at Kosovo now, or even Belgium....look and learn. Look at Tower Hamlets.
Immigration can be good within boundaries, but there is a time when it becomes a dangerous burden leading to social and political breakdown."
"_AT_HAMMY966
Her name is Milena, you would have thought you would have bothered to read the article before you put your frightening right wing rant on as a post. Also you may have travelled around Europe but you have not alas learnt to spell.. Your views are so half baked and ill informed I cannot even be bothered to respond to them, truely pathetic."
"_AT_crazyenglishmf: No, it should be focussed on the politicians that are supposed to represent the electorate as a whole, not a minority of fat-cats and the useful idiot liberals that support them.
Business leaders are supposed to maximise their profits. That's their job. Politicans aren't supposed to help them. They are supposedo to be on the side of the people. The problem is that we hardly have any politicians that come from normal backgrounds anymore."
"xixonian

I heard it this morning on Sky news and didn't have the luxury (or ability as we can't get YouTube where I work) to be able to double check exactly what she said.
My point was that to my uncultured ear her 'flocking' could have been misinterpretted or misheard as 'fucking' and therefore made what she said still seem rather bigoted - I apologise that I paraphrased what Gillian said wrong, but it was not a deliberate misquote in order to agree with the article."
"Just as Mrs.Duffy made a sweeping generalisation about Eastern Europeans, so have you about British people.
It is clearly untrue to say that all immigrants come here to work, just as it is equally untrue to say that all Britsh people want to work.
Don't think that the Citizenship Test means anything and please don't imply that Mrs.Duffy should take it as this is just insulting.
Oh, and way to make a protest - posting on Twitter..."
I am a "screaming" liberal who thinks that immigration has been a great thing for this country. We should though allow debate and listen to those who's opinion differs without cheap insults. The government did screw up the numbers that came from Eastern Europe and that put pressure on some local services. That isn't bigoted just correct. That was bad management and the government should be brought up on it. Brown was wrong and unfortunately so are you. Grow up and allow others to have their point. Don't worry your argument will win the day.
"Actually, Gordon Brown, from what I remember, mentioned the contribution made by immigrants during both TV debates.
I think the real problem here is that people don't understand or really know the scale of immigration and whether it is harmful or helpful. These are difficult questions to answer and must not simply be dismissed as racist.
But yes, I do probably agree with Brown."
"Christ albloodymighty are people still talking about this?
Can we PLEASE get back to more important issues like the economy and Afghanistan and the NHS and the horrible prospect of Cameron in No10?"
"I COMPLETELY AGREE.
She was two seconds away from saying ""If you say anything about the immigrants, you are a RASCIST.""
Rascist was the word that got away. She is prejudiced against Eastern Europeans - and against migrant workers.
Speaking as a British migrant worker, a teacher in Qatar, I would feel very uncomfortable if an Arab said on television, ""You can't say anything about the immigrants without being rascist, but what about all these British? Where are they all flocking from?"" That would make me feel very uncomfortable.
When she spoke, you could see BROWN bristle, as a good man - he thought he was suddenly dealing with a rascist, and someone he couldn't be seen to associate himself with.
He should have stood up to her. He should have defended himself. AND I HOPE AN EASTERN EUROPEAN PUTS A HEARTFELT QUESTION TO THE THREE OF THEM IN THE LEADERS DEBATE TONIGHT."
"Jock
""the BNP will be thanking truly from the bottom of their hearts to cif for scoring such an own goal and giving credence to their arguments.""
Have you seen the BNPs views on climate change?
Fans of the BNP don't really worry that much about which side has the most credible arguments, do they?
For many BNP fans if Nick Griffin was filmed by the BBC setting fire to a cat it'd just be yet more proof the BBC is run by English hating Marxists."
The question begs, If she was such a blue rinse Alf Garnet type bigot that she is getting made out to be on here, why did she not go on and on about 'those foreigners' and why did she leave Brown on fairly good terms?
I don't speak slowly but I do tend to ask people where they're from pretty early on in a conversation if they seem to be foreign, and I say that as a 'foreign' myself - I thought I was just taking an interest... :(
"_AT_barry841
Your claim was that people can't simply move here and start getting everything for free.
The cases cited do indeed show that, and claiming asylum is another form of immigration - a successful one, as even when a claim is found to be fraudulent, you stand a good chance of not being deported.
The abuse of the asylum system as a mechanism for bypassing immigration controls is well-recognised. In these two cases the UK is not the nearest safe country to either Afghanistan or Somalia.
However, the UK may be the nearest soft touch to those two countries."
"Grahamew and wh1952
great post, clearly i touched a nerve, can you just point out for me the bits that were rascist ?
all i did was point out facts, uncomfortably facts but facts non the less !
My German and Polish m8s would find it most amusing you call me a racist. the works forces i have worked with in Africa and the ME would equally be shocked to find out im a racist too !
again i will ask the question, what did i say that was non factual or racist ? or is you default just to smear me ! hmmmmm !"
Well done, Milena. Somebody cutting through the carp and talking sense. Brown should not have apologised and I only wish he had told her her views were bigoted during the conversation. This brouhaha does not show UK in a good light from several angles: that we listen and obey when Murdoch directs us and that we buy into 'immigration = problem' in such numbers.
"Miskatonic
""However, the UK may be the nearest soft touch to those two countries.""
Surely those countries that take in more asylum seekers than the UK are an even softer touch then?
Again we run into the never ending conflict of human beings stuck on Earth:
1> we don't really want the world's politicians turning away asylum seekers or killing them.
but
2> we don't want them here either - ""here"" being wherever we happen to be experiencing life.
Clearly, we don't want asylum seeking children having too good a life - god forbid they should discover a paradise somewhere after experiencing war/famine/whatever - but if they suffer terribly that makes us feel bad too.
If they must be either terribly happy or terribly unhappy, we can hopefully keep it all away from our own eyes - until the tabloids tell us about ""REFUGEE KIDS GET FREE SCRATCHCARDS AND VIDEO GAMES"" which just makes us mad at the thought of them getting something for nothing.
""REFUGEE KIDS GET FREE CLOTHES FROM LOCAL CHARITY SHOP - REALLY OLD FASHIONED AND SHIT JUMPERS NO ONE ELSE WANTED"" doesn't make us feel quite so sad.
in summary then:
""Hell is other people""
:)"
I used to work for Sheffield City Council with disabled kids and adults. I worked with a lot of very altruistic, fundamentally good working class people who had done the same job for decades and virtually never left Sheffield. And an awful lot of them all showed, on varying levels, racist tendencies. They saw other cultures as untrustworthy, suspicious. They'd lock bags away if we had an African agency worker "because you can't be too careful," or exclude them in a hundred different ways. It was broadly left unsaid, but there was a widely accepted attitude there. We can demonise Brown all we want, it's great sport, but the better debate would be why so many people share Duffy's opinions.
"Taking our jobs?
Those who complain that immigrants are taking British jobs should remember that the 'captains' of Brtitish industry, over the last 20 or 30 years, are the ones who have seen fit to move most production out to sweat-shops in poor countries where they can pay slave wages and not worry too much about working conditions or health and safety regulations!
It's not immigrants who've taken your jobs in Britain, it's companies themselves who've taken your jobs out of Britain!
This 'jobs being taken' problem will not be remedied until every citizen of this planet, wherever they are, can expect a decent wage for an honest day's work, and that's the plain and simple truth!"
This thread will be closing overnight. Thanks for your comments.
"1945 The Poles were not allowed to take part in the victory in Europe celebrations.
...We received a letter from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, from Bevin, encouraging us to return to Poland, now that Poland was free, but the Poland I knew no longer existed; home was now part of Ukraine. Poland was under Soviet Communist rule. We had news of those who had returned to Poland and what had happened to them. Thankfully, Churchill realized what had happened and it was thanks to his initiative that the Polish Resettlement Act was introduced in 1947. We all had wanted to return to Poland; that is, after all, why we had been fighting. Unfortunately it became apparent that this was impossible...
Katyn represents the over 1.5 million Eastern Poles deported by Stalin to the Siberian labour camps. My late father spent 2 years in Siberia and then fought with the Polish RAF. My Uncle was killed by the NKVD in 1942.
The lady is of the age that remembers this. She asked a sensible question.
She was courteous and concerned. She asked questions actually answered well by Gordon Brown. It is the hypocrisy of Gordon Brown that frightens. Politicians whose words do not truly reflect their feelings are beneath contempt."
"AllyF is at least as influential as e deserves to be in this forum so I'm going to respond to his offensive rant at the author.
Selective quotation, mawkish sentimentality, triangulating middle class self satisfaction with posed working class authenticity, blended with a dash of repulsive personal aggression meant to convince us that the emotions are authentic. Oh, and just enough prominence given to the word 'Roma' to press buttons from a safe distance. Unpleasant buttons. The sort of buttons the author had heard being pressed for twelve solid media hours before she wrote this.
Dishonest manipulative drivel which makes me want to ask
How dare you?
How fucking dare you?"
"This is bad, unethical journalism.
Gordon Brown thought he was speaking privately and his confidentiality was betrayed. His comment was not compellingly out of order, he was venting off the cuff frustration.
This is sensationalism and does not deserve a mention in a paper like the Guardian."
"Last week on the BBC Radio 4 ""Today"" programme Gordon Brown continually boasted to John Humphries about how he had successfully contained wage inflation. He and Blair achieved this by opting out of the temporary immigration embargo on new EU member states (which most other EU states adopted) and allowed unrestricted immigration from Eastern Europe. This was the mechanism that New Labour used to control wage inflation; clearly, it knew that the incoming wave of people seeking work would depress the wages of the indigenous work force.
This is not a criticism of migrant workers, but rather a criticism of New Labour. This policy had more in common with past Tory administrations than anything socialist. No wonder people are bitter and feel let down by this ""Labour"" administration. No wonder the BNP is gaining strength.
BTW I find it very unnerving that the Guardian sees fit to censor so many posts on this issue."
"All we are seeing is how large the schism between Labour's two main sets of supporters is. I don't think one party can represent both the middle-class ""professional"" ""skinny latte"" drinking urban (ie, London) multicultral types while at the same time representing the interests of it's traditional provincial, working-class, hard-working, tea-drinking voter base. They need to pick one and stick with it.
Personally, I don't consider myself as having anything in common with the former group. I just don't recognise the world they live in, and clearly they feel the same about me and the world I live in."
"That sort of language the microphone lady spoke yesterday was bigoted and Daily Mail-esque, and frankly, GB's appreciation of the situation was accurate.
But now we have a Bigot's defense league starting up, and it's going to get nasty in this country.
By kaff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please can you expand and qualify your rather hysterical and absurd remarks"
"_AT_deborama:

You may be, but have you asked the people who were already there before mass immigration from Europe?"
"I have very mixed feelings about the whole episode. I work in a school and many pupils do not know what vocabulary to use when discussing immigration and race issues. They cannot express themselves adequately in a way that does not offend. Many people out in the street are also similarly disadvantaged. While coming across as a bigoted statement, I believe that she did not mean it to sound that way.
Had the Government had a better projection of how many people from Eastern Europe would move here once those countries joined the EU, they would have had an acceptable amount of public services in place in the right areas. As a result of the poor preparation by the Government, there was a great deal of pressure put on public services, leading to frustration by many who have to wait 3 weeks to see their GP. That is not Mrs Duffy's fault, however ineloquent she may have been. It is, however, Mr Brown's fault. So although I do not care what he thinks of voters in the privacy of his own car, I do feel he let down, not just British citizens, but the citizens of other EU countries who have moved here."
No reply from the author of this dreadful piece. No need really with the moderators to protect her from anyone with an accurate factual reply
"What most people in Britain should understand is that in most of the ex-eastern Bloc, with the exception of Slovenia, Estonia and maybe the Czech Republic the last twenty years of ""democracy"" has been a total disaster for the vast majority: wages are stagnant, neoptism and coruption rife and prices for essentials food housing transport are at German levels...
Since joining the EU apart from being able to travel the only other difference is that domestically VAT, excise duties on tobacco alcohol have rocketed and state subsidies slashed...The other EU original 15 members including impoverished Greece Spain and Portugal) refused to extend labour rights so of course they descended on the UK...where else?
Now some countries are actually collapsing Latvia- 45% contraction in GNP, Bulgaria, Romania (basket cases) have living standards and unemployment that isworse, combined with flat tax, abssymally low minimum wages and high food prices that make life harder there than North African Countries like Tunisia or Turkey.."
He had agreed to where a microphone so that what he had said could be heard. He was still wearing the microphone when he made the comment, and had no reason to believe that what he was saying was not being recorded, other than his own stupidity and frustration with having to meet normal members of the public who were prepared to voice an opinion that veered from the party line. The only betrayal is the betrayal of working class British people by the political party that was formed to represent their interests.
"AllyF:

Okay, so I take your point. And maybe this forum isn't the best one for this kind of polemic, as to a large extent Milena is preaching to the converted. But her message is something that a lot of people in this country would do well to hear. You're right in the sense that ironically, it's probably those who've never interacted with immigrants in their lives who need to hear it the most - as it's these people who tend not to have a clue about the issue, yet can wax lyrical about the evils of migration until the cows come home. I think your problem with this article is that it's unbalanced in places, tars those worried about immigration with one brush and reads somewhat like a rant. I accept those points. But I think before criticising too harshly we should remember exactly how many xenophobic, rabid rants immigrants here have had to endure from our media - the closest thing to a collective mouthpiece the British population has. Let's not crucify one of them for biting back."
"OZKT

No. The onus is (or should be) on the government to ensure that their policies do not lead to a situation where local primary schools (already overstretched and underfunded), are having to improvise classrooms in the school kitchens; the onus is on the government to have some kind of integration and settlement plan in place before opening their borders to an potentially unlimited number of new residents; the onus is on the government to ensure that there are translators available for hospitals and GP surgeries before they have hundreds of people attempting to access medical care without any documentation or common language; the onus is on the authorities to enforce landlord registration, building regulations and health and safety laws when there are dangerous numbers of people living in a 2-up-2-down; the onus is on the authorities to ensure there are enough social workers and educational outreach workers to cope when there are literally hundreds of school-age children hanging around on the streets all day, every day, being deprived of an education...
Starting to get the picture?
For the last 2 years or so, we've been having loads of public meetings and community events, with council, police and other authorities, trying to sort out our problems. The main reason there has been so much chaos is because the council were caught just as much off guard as the rest of us. They didn't write to Romania and invite thousands of extra people to come to Longsight.
We are not a racist, bigoted community. Quite the opposite. If we ""speak to an immigrant and educate ourselves"" our problems will not go away. We've been doing our best to further our understanding and decrease our confusion. There haven't been any additional school places miraculously appearing as a result.

Oh, let's think, maybe from somewhere between 'educate yourself' and 'become a better person'"
"Passing lightly over the fact that Mrs Duffy never said anything bigoted anyway.
I know Mrs Duffy, not her personally but ladies like her. When I was a child the Mrs Duffys surrounded me. As I grew older I realised that these were the good hearted women who got things done. Cross them and you got the rough edge of their tongue, they would happily put manners on you. But if you were threatened by anyone or anything it would be Mrs Duffy wading in to the rescue because she cared about you. If you needed a neighbour to help out, it was Mrs Duffy, if you needed things planning, or food providing, or clothes collecting or places cleaning then who did you look to but Mrs Duffy?
Mrs Duffy is one of the great characters in our world. If immigrants needed help then it was Mrs Duffy who would be there, if people needed encouraging - Mrs Duffy again. It wasn't the learned and successful people who would get their hands dirty but capable and caring Mrs Duffy.
And so, Mrs Duffy, whatever your name may be, wherever you live and from whichever race you are descended, I want to thank you, truly and sincerely. It's not you who bears any malice or hatred to mankind (though sometimes you can be a little clumsy and even cause offence to the thin skinned). But to those who meet you, you are a shining example, a pearl of great price in this world."
"_AT_lapsed 5.57
Actually, Ally F seems to have hit the nail on the head.
It is you that is wallowing in New Labourite ""dishonest manipulative drivel""."
"_AT_lapsed
You're very welcome to come and visit me and I'll show you round the neighbourhood, and introduce you to the neighbours. We're very friendly.
I'll extend the same invitation to Milena.
Funnily enough, Polly Toynbee recently came for the same tour (not at my invitation, but I saw her afterwards.) The look on her face was quite precious. ""I didn't know anything about any of this!"""
Well spoken, Milena. Had Brown stood his ground and said, 'yeah, well she was spouting bigotry' I might have had some respect for him as a leader. As it was he all too predicatably caved in under the weight of unwholesome British zenophobia. Sad times.
"CommunityMod,

So it's all back tomorrow morning then?
God, I hope not."
"WH1952
If you want to know why so many white working class people in this country nave a 'chip' on their shoulder, just read some of the posts on this thread - most of all those who question Mrs Duffy's intelligence, experience and education, and try desparately to portray her as some raving Dail Mail reader who is so weak minded that she is susceptible to brain washing by the right wing press (a common and insulting trope often used on these threads), unlike her more 'intelligent' social superiors. And all this in spite of the fact that she has always voted labour and holds, as far as I can see, fairly left wing beliefs.
It's about time those bloody proles learned their place and shut their stupid uneducated mouths.
Welcome to the modern left."
"Happ
""Personally, I don't consider myself as having anything in common with the former group. I just don't recognise the world they live in, and clearly they feel the same about me and the world I live in.""
I understand you Happ - although I live in London I drink tea and not lattes by the way (lattes ain't unique to London)
I'm starting work on Saturday night - kitchen porter, minimum wage."
"KenBarlow _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 5:36PM

I posted the comment in the article about how a woman talked about immigration and gets a total characterisation by being called bigoted and racist and you talk about climate change? Come on.

?"
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity

And they can't. They have to be either seeking asylum or able to support themselves. I know that to some people (best not call them bigots) ""asylum seeker"" is synonymous with ""lying scrounger"" but I'm sure you wouldn't be suggesting that."
"I agree with this article.
What baffles me is why oh why did the media not wheel out Chami Chakravarty to comment on this.
Whenever they want to block reform, they waste no time in giving her air time to vent her splien to cloak their resistance to a policy under the fig leaf or racial discrimination or an errosion of civil liberties.
Perhaps the print or TV media should let her watch the exchange in full in the presence of Eastern Europeans and ask her to comment.
Will this happen, of course not!"
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity

And they can't. They have to be either seeking asylum or able to support themselves. I know that to some people (best not call them bigots) ""asylum seeker"" is synonymous with ""lying scrounger"" but I'm sure you wouldn't be suggesting that."
"BizzarroJerry BizzarroJerry
29 Apr 2010, 12:51PM
Thank god, you've written this. Totally agree. Gordon Brown was right about her.

Was the tw3o faced Brown right when he made the remark or right when he made the grovelling apology? The man cannot have nit both ways, he is a contemptible two faced hypocrite, typical of New Labour."
"_AT_AllyF

Having read Polly's book ""Hard Work"", I think we can assume she is aware of what the real world is like - even if largely as a tourist."
"Milena, you are having your ?welcome to this great country of ours? moment. I suspect that you probably weren?t here for the last election or you would be accustomed to the uniquely British tone of strictly non-bigoted righteousness bubbling under the surface of every discourse on Johnny Foreigner that always gets a good massage come voting time. And rather than make a public issue of breaking down, you would probably have got more insight from talking to your Jewish, Irish, Black and Asian neighbours and colleagues about the moment in their assimilation into the UK pantheon of immigrant communities when they had to admit that British non-bigotry had finally got to them and how they have managed since.
As has been pointed out here, worse systems of bigotry exist in more murderous form, not least in Eastern Europe. Immigrants to Britain from other cultures will tell you there always comes a point at which the natives get restless and find themselves unable or unwilling to adapt to the new social paradigm that follows each wave of immigration required by the British economy?s insatiable need for low paid workers. Cheer up! You?ve had a chance to get in a good old fashioned moan about how unfair it all is??.in the Guardian yet! Millions have gone through the same as you and worse without a voice.
To their credit, the Labour party has done much (some would say too much) to outlaw and repress the excesses of non-bigotry, and that I would think is what was behind Gordon Brown?s (private) frustration at Mrs Duffy?s personal, but widely shared view of the source of our troubles. What he had not taken into account is that whatever you might think the real issues are, there?s no accounting for the ongoing strength of feeling anywhere in this globalised world against foreigners when the going gets tough."
Good on you Gordon, sorry you apologised she is a silly OLD BIGOT, I doubt the Labour Party need people like her any way. By the way I am old 66 to be precise.
"It annoys me when people say that the eastern Europeans (for example) do the jobs here that the English won't do when in reality the incomers woudn't do them in their own countries for the rates that are paid for those jobs in those countries.
It's all relative and when you throw in our free education/health, benefits, social housing, superior infrastructure and better footy then it's a no brainer for a graduate from Bulgaria to come here and pick strawberries, they wouldn't do it there because they'd only be paid third world slave-labour wages (as opposed to first world slave-labour wages ie the minimum wage) Which reminds me - why shouldn't MP's salaries be a multiplier of the minimum wage then they would be encouraged to increase it and everyone would benefit, in fact, shouldn't the cheapest mid-terrace house be about 3.5 X the min wage over a year? [52X£5.65X40hrsX3.5=£41k funnily enough what they were about Thatcher's era]"
"Jock
""I posted the comment in the article about how a woman talked about immigration and gets a total characterisation by being called bigoted and racist and you talk about climate change? Come on.""
their attitudes and policies dictate how credible they are as a party.
""?""
:)
Well don't blame me - blame BNP fans. They are the ones who see everything Nick does as a sign of what a great leader he is. His appearance on QT was a triumph, in their eyes."
"JockMcDoc _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:15PM
correction and expanded to explain what I fully mean :
I posted the comment in the article about how a woman talked about immigration and gets a total character assassination by being called bigoted and racist and you talk about climate change? Come on it's what they have been saying for years that there is a conspiracy to silence the immigration debate."
Hmm, they'd probably be better getting Shami Chakrabarti.
"I do not blame Mrs. Duffy, nor do I think she is a bigot.
Her question was phrased fairly reasonably and did not seem jingoistic, although it was simplistic and exhibited the irritating platitudinal quality of phrases like ""broken society"" and ""political correctness gone mad"".
I do, however, blame Gordon Brown for the way in which he responded to her. Her question was, in essence, a perfectly valid enquiry about the free movement of labour in the EU and the effects it will have on native populations.
I detest the inability of Brown to respond sincerely in public, or fairly and open mindedly in private. His answer to the question of what he would do about the ""flockers"" should simply have been ""absolutely nothing as we have no legal right to now restrict EU immigration. It would simply not be fair.""
Unfortunately, Ms. Popova, you have not really heplped much here, as you have gone to great lengths to inform us of your personal reaction to ""bigotgate"", but have not really offered any contribution to the wider debate, or explained how, as a left liberal, you think that what is ""good for the economy"" is necessarily good for the people.
Free movement of labour is only really beneficial when disparities in wealth between regions are temporary and average out over medium term time scales. It basically benefits business and not workers."
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"KenBarlow _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:23PM
Please see my updated post. All I was pointing out was an opinion, whether you agree with it or not, it has been an own-goal by cif and has given the BNP ammunition.
The sensible thing would have been to let it lie but then again some folk can't, can they?"
"_AT_ComunityMod

No 'accidentally' leaving it open just in case we say what we really think then?"
"JockMcDock,

No there hasn't - there has been an attempt to politicise and polarise the immigration debate to the point that there are only two possible positions..
Anti-immigration - racist, bigot, little Englander, BNP etc.
Pro-Immigration - soft touch, free handouts, metropolitan elite etc.
Truth be known, most people aren't in either camp."
"I don't know....I'm an Eastern European immigrant too, and the comment of Mrs Duffy didn't even register. I think it is only because such comments are fairly common place and because I've heard much worse.
Of course, that in itself is symptomatic of the wider problem that upset Milena so much.
I think it is best just to ignore such remarks and never to take them personally.
(And let's face it - almost every single Eastern European country has similar problems of prejduice whether they are directed at minorities, or other nationalities. Sometimes that is expressed in far worse ways than it is here)
That said, we should never become blind to prejudice but rather let it not affect us because there are plenty of welcoming people in the UK and elsewhere who do not feel that way.
And even more for whom immigrants/nationality/ethnicity this is a total non issue."
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"exiledlondoner _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:30PM
I think you'll find that the BNP garners sympathy by portraying themselves as the underdog who are getting silenced by the 'liberal elite' by being smeared racist when they bring up immigration."
"_AT_ thfc123
that'll be why they brought in the minimum wage and sure start then...
They're not great but Labour is still the best choice for working class voters,
I'm feeling more and more uneasy about the Liberal Democrats the latest point is John Harris today inIpswich.
The Lib-Dems don't need to worry about alienating the working class vote as it's not where they get their core support from. I'm all for giving them a change though. I hope I'm wrong"
"WH1952
If you want to know why so many white working class people in this country nave a 'chip' on their shoulder, just read some of the posts on this thread - most of all those who question Mrs Duffy's intelligence, experience and education, and try desparately to portray her as some raving Dail Mail reader who is so weak minded that she is susceptible to brain washing by the right wing press (a common and insulting trope often used on these threads), unlike her more 'intelligent' social superiors. And all this in spite of the fact that she has always voted labour and holds, as far as I can see, fairly left wing beliefs.
It's about time those bloody proles learned their place and shut their stupid uneducated mouths.
Welcome to the modern left."
I totally agree with this article. He called her what she is. If she and the rest of Britain can't see that, then there's more danger to her words than his. Although, I do have to say: I've lived in Germany and in Poland and seen the SAME bigotry towards immigrants in THOSE countries too. It's a European thing... which I really don't get seeing as the EU actually ENCOURAGES this type of open trade, open employment relationship. Not that the U.S. doesn't have it's own issues, but being a nation of (mostly) immigrants, it's a little more accepting. Time for Europe to grow up.
"JockMcDock,

Of course they do - doesn't make it true though...."
"The problem really is resentment.
I'm a painter and decorator. I work hard, I do the job properly and I don't mess people about like some. But when I hear people talk about hard the polish work etc etc.
It isn't anything to do with how hard they work.
You like polish workers because you can pay them 2 quid an hour and they have no employment rights. So stop dressing it up as some kind of progressive ideal thing. You just like using poor foreign blokes to save your money. THAT IS IT.
I resent being called lazy by people that know nothing about me just because of my nationality to be quite honest. I'm also sick of people ripping off my mates just because they're foreign.
You really are a bunch of low life hypocrites."
Your words are obviously said from the heart. To the people who have posted comments insulting you should try & understand how this total farse has made you feel. After all Gillian Duffy has not apologised for the bigoted comments she after all did actually make, Gordon Brown was for once quite right in his comments.
Meinhare: No, it's a human thing actually. Can I call you an idiot now?
"There is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with Mrs. Duffy.
What has got so many people angry is the way she has been dismissed as a bigot.
If she was a work-shy benefit scrounger then i wouldn't care but we are talking about someone who spent their working life looking after the disabled.
That alone does not make her a saint but it sure as hell gives her the right to voice an opinion and ask questions without being shouted down by her snotty 'superiors'.
It seems that Mrs. Duffy cares more about the well-being of her local community than big business' right to employ cheap, 'flexible' workers.
The criticisms of her reek of old-fashioned snobbery with a twist of ageism.
AllyF said it all really."
"mattmcneany _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:35PM

Quite a few cif'ers would feel at home in the libs wouldn't they if it meant not worrying about alienating working class folk would it?
I sincerely hope that the liberals do well so that all these New Labour types defect to them and Labour gets it's founding principles back and start being one of the voices of ordinary folk."
"They are saying so because their pollsters have warned them that speaking up for immigrants will bring them electoral disaster.
Do you like living in a country where the top politicians are not allowed to say what they think because pollsters have told them what not to say? Who governs Britain: the elected politicians or the pollsters? (Plus or minus 5%)!"
"Are Poles bigots?
What's the attitudes of Poles to racial minorities in this country, and in Poland?"
"Sam Beckett: You said it. Sit there with lithuanian nannies, italian gardeners, polish builders and working class decorators - and bash on about how OTHER PEOPLE can't work for a living.
Asses."
"""Who governs Britain: the elected politicians or the pollsters? (Plus or minus 5%)!""
Er...the electorate?"
"exiledlondoner _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:40PM
The point I am making is that they will be using this episode as credence that it is true, it's all about selective use of facts, quotes taken out of context etc and boy do they have a feast to pick from."
"And finally a profound sense of isolation, hurt, and being alone. Tears and huge heaving sobs. I've not cried like that in about five years." Funnily enough the last time I cried like that was also five years ago - when Labour won the election.
"Well she didn't actually say that, did she?
she asked about east Europeans ""flocking"" here - which carries a totally different connotation. (Although had she said ""coming here"", do doubt some posters would have tried to infer some sort of sexual implication from those words.)
More interestingly however, she preceded her question with ""you can't talk about immigration now"" - and wow was she proved right about that, if some of these comments are anything to go by!.
A mindset which holds that even asking a question about immigration equates to ""bigotry"", is a very, very unhealthy mindset: one which, moreover completely misunderstands the meaning of the word.
A ""bigot"" is not somebody who is worried about, or fears, something. A ""bigot"" is not somebody who has concerns about something. A ""bigot"" is not somebody who seeks re-assurance about something.
What a ""bigot"" is is somebody who is so convinced about the rightness of their own point of view that they do not see any doubts, qualms or disagreements about it as being even legitimate, let alone worthy of a response.
That is what a bigot is - and this affair has indeed been about bigotry.
But not on the part of Gillian Duffy."
"PS: If you want to see REAL anti-Slavic comments, look no further than educated, articulate and liberal 'national treasure' Stephen Fry.
Poles and other Eastern Europeans are constantly slagged off by those who would never dream of criticisng blacks or asians.
They are dour, homophobic religious fanatics fit only for cheap menial labour until someone in Rochdale raises the issue of immigration. Then they become persecuted, disenfranchised huddled masses."
"I'm not sure how bigoted Duffy was in what she said and it's completely ironic for Brown to call her a bigot when he and New Labour have propped up the discourse of immigrants as inherently problematic and have allowed the BNP and their ilk to flourish. While I do think as an electorate we're entitiled to question how public services are delivered, just using the number of immigrants as a proxy to explain poor public service delivery is lazy.
The problem is generalisations and this is where how you categorise people matters. If you just talk about immigrants en masse and say on balance their impact is either beneficial or detrimental you are using the fact of being an outsider as a valid way of categorising people and somehow explanatory of their behaviour (which is where the accusation of racism comes). Effectively the immigration debate suggests that if en masse immigration is bad then a hardworking immigrant is always going to be considered worse for the country than a layabout non-immigrant. Unless you have a more sophisticated and nuanced analysis accusations of racism are justified.
To those that have said Milena shouldn't take it personally - well it's hard - we, (media politicians joepublic) build up discourses about certain groups of people in this case ""criminal Eastern Europeans"", but when you are of that group you do feel implicated - do you run about shouting that you're not criminal? Just as white middle aged straight men feel harddone by when they're told that they are all racist, sexist and homophobic, if you're an Eastern European why wouldn't you feel offended when you're talked about in generalised terms? Duffy's comments may have been slight but it might also be the straw that broke the camel's back. These representations of criminal eastern europeans are delivered in a drip drip fashion, day in day out. Unless you have to think about them though you wouldn't notice. As a second generation British/South Asian origin Muslim woman who is perceived as well-integrated with a white partner and a fondness for the odd pint and bacon sandwich I feel some of those things that Milena mentioned, albeit in relation to being a Muslim. (and for the record, guess what I was never forcibly married/killed for honour/still have my own clitoris and my dad who's a mosque going bearded Muslim gets on really well with my partner)
To conclude - scarcity of resources will always exist - we need to think about what principles we use to manage that. Crude, unsophisticated assertions about the number of immigrants doesn't help anyone and can be offensive. And yes obviously we can't always be talking about individuals but we need to think about how we categorise groups of people and whether we are attributing some explanatory factor to that category."
"How dare you! I would say I do have a sense of entitlement to a British passport, yes, seeing as I was born here, and I certainly am not entitled to one from any other country. How do Brits, whatever their ethnicity, with British passports (who, incidentally, may also be nationalised immigrants) deserve your snide remark of having a 'huge sense of entitlement,' when their only crime is to carry a UK passport? What am I supposed to do - denounce it at birth lest I seem arrogant?
Honestly, Milena, get over yourself. This is an egocentric attack on anyone who is doing your journalistic career a favour by reading your article. I wish I'd never found it!"
"im not an immigrant. i value immigrants. i have worked with immigrants. i have spoken to them about what its like to be an immigrant. ive watched what the woman said. i feel sorry for gordon brown in this instance.
but i dont think she was necessarily being bigoted. and i dont think you do have that much to be upset about.
were you not aware that some people blame immigrants for our countries problems? were you not aware that immigration was an election issue? are you perfectly happy as long as people voice their concerns about immigration dressed up in politically correct emotionless language?
the woman is one of many who blame our countries problems on immigration. if she was a devoted bnp supporter, you may have more reason to take such offence, as she would already have fully decided that immigrants were the problem and they should be sent home. but she was merely voicing her opinions and concerns - yes with emotional and untactful overtones, but i dont recall her saying overtly personal.
gordon brown obviously wasnt in the mood, but he would have done well to fully explain his attitude towards immigration, rather than palming her off with vague figures of immigration / emmigration. its easy to poke holes in these figures, as people do not always immigrate to or emmigrate from the exact same areas or social classes.
he could have made a real attempt to truly explain his immigration policies - im sure they are not formed on an in=out basis - but it was clearly easier to just patronise her about the importance of working with children for a while. no real discussion whatsoever.
people have problems with immigrants. spare them your anger, and direct it towards the poor communication on the part of those who decide our immigration policy. the bnp are probably the most open about the reasoning behind their policies, and are probably all the more persuasive for it...."
"Milena, don't be so naive. People all over the world start to feel angry and threatened if they see ever-increasing numbers of foreigners entering their country, some of whom frankly (Eastern Europeans not included) do not give a stuff about British social norms and culture. Polish people would feel just the same. I am sorry if that hurts the feelings of you and other decent, hard-working immigrants, but there's nothing exceptional about the Brits.

Empathy works two ways. You should try to educate yourself about the point of view of the disgruntled indigeneous person in your adopted country. Britain's sense of national identity and social cohesion has been draining away for years and a lot of people are very unhappy and disillusioned about it. We've had 13 years of a government which seems to relish destroying any sense of cultural continuity in the population. We should all face up to this and not dismiss the concerns of people like Mrs Duffy as racist bigotry. Do you really imagine that patronisingly telling such people that they're misguided will aid community cohesion rather than stoke tensions?
Please don't whinge about being 'disenfranchised', it is insulting. I have lived in a different country (France) before, and I never in a million years would have expected to be able to vote in their national elections as I was not a French citizen."
"_AT_ sarka

Surely, central Europe?
Yes, fears of mass immigration are legitimate and should be treated as such. Mr Brown ought to listen to these fears and respond to them, not merely treat them with disdain as he did. This notwithstanding, Mrs Duffy's comment was bigoted. The demonstrative she prefaced her comment with (these Eastern Europeans...) was loaded with casual contempt.
_AT_AllyF
I usually enjoy reading your posts and typically find myself in broad assent with your views. Your post this time was just nasty."
"I think Ally was a bit overkill myself, mainly because I remember two Polish boys getting very badly beaten in Portree last year by locals outraged that they attempted to get into a private party.
Both boys were hospitalized, and of course in the traditional manner of such events in Scotland, no one officially knows who did it.
Rhetoric has an effect, and can have a bone-breaking effect, so it behoves us all to be cautious in talking about immigration, about particular groups of immigrants. Like all Glasgow liberals, I have learned to grit my teeth when running gauntlets of Roma Big Issue sellers and beggars, and also grit my teeth when fellow Glaswegians (such as my Pakistani-born neighbour) talk about sending the Roma 'home'.
However In Glasgow the most troublesome tensions are actually not between the Roma and everyone else, but between groups already established here - whites of Scottish and Irish descent being of course the biggie.
Just think you took it a bit too far, Ally."
The nastiest and most vulgar response came from "I-have-immigrant-friends" AllyF. But I'm not surprised. It is the same person who claimed that biological function of gays is to be nannies.
"Great. The whole country is reeling in revulsion at Brown's vicious attack on a peaceable granny who had the temerity to wonder why there haven't been any effective immigration controls since the Tories left office...and the Guardianistas stick up for Brown! Not just on the sentiment but the language. Love it.
Today someone mentioned that the Labour Party was originally set up to represent working class people? Rather than brand them as bigots, I mean. Incredible how things change, isn't it?"
"All of the ""grow a pair"" ""suck it up"" ""stiff upper lip"" comments are very offensive. Decidedly illiberal comments on a seemingly liberal website. In particular the CIF Belief, CIF America, gender and immigration threads seem to attract an alarmingly high number of posts from Brits who seem to think that they are ""of the left"" but hold views that are intolerant, narrow minded, and prejudiced. Not the Left I believe in. Once again on display here are far too many posts that are hot headed and crude. How is it so few posters grasp the offensiveness of using words like ""flocking"" to describe the legal immigration arrival people? Usually, even if I don't agree with AllyF I respect his tone. But his post on 29 Apr 2010, 1:17PM was truly awful.
_AT_Miskatonic University

Ah, the old ""divided loyalities"" chestnut. Nowhere in her comment piece do I sense this - Bulgaria does not allow dual citizenship - end of. This does not translate to a person lacking loyalty for the country of their residence. Is it not good enough for a person to be European? I suppose you would like to emply the Thought Police? Or get some tips from some of your new neighbors on how to train and use neighborhood informants? You could call them the Stasi, and then identify which neighbors were not adequately loyal to the state. Hmm...what was that? 1 for every 66?
formerlefty

So no one wants ""them"" and you are now whining that the U.K. let them in and is having no end of trouble with them. This sounds very familiar. You do realise you are discussing people? This doesn't pass the smell test..
Dimitri
29 Apr 2010, 5:06PM
Great post. Thank you!
hammy966
29 Apr 2010, 5:09PM
Horrid post. It is a brilliant, although inadverten rebuttal to the hundreds of nasty, insensitive brutes who sneered that Milena was overreacting to the ""innocent"" expressions of concern about flocking Poles and ""E.E.""s overrunning their towns and cities. As AllyF said, this is ""changing their communities rapidly and dramatically"", which are being transformed by, for example ""around a thousand East European Roma"", the arrival of which ""has caused both practical and emotional turmoil"" in his ""very tolerant, diverse community"" (guffaw). Multiply that by millions of voices raised against ""you"", but of course they will tell you to ""grow a pair"". If all of the sneerers were listening to this ever intensifying drumbeat of intolerance knowing it was directed at at themselves, they claim they wouldn't be bothered. But as hammy amply demonstrates, they know they are the drummers, the drumbeat is coming for someone else, and the experience shows. Thank you hammy and friends. Well done!

There's that superior British education out on display.

Oops...I'm sure Milena's superior grasp of the English language is all somehow the fault of some Bulgarian crime syndicate....

Priceless."
"Sybantcho
29 Apr 2010, 12:56PM
I think you are overreacting. I am not defending the womans views which I do think are limited and biased and probably based on what she reads and watches. But still I think you need to relax.
But not by what she experiences? She has articulated her feelings as to what it is like to live in disadvantaged white working class areas, abandoned by the political party that was created to look out for your interest. Labour underestimated the number of immigrants that would come to the UK. They planned for 100,000 and over 1,000,000 people exercised their right to be here under the Social Charter. The consequence of mass unplanned immigration disproportionally affected the white working classes because of the much increased competition for jobs in an ever decreasing low paid market. This is why Labour is now proposing to put a limit on immigration by using a points system. Personally, I find it sad that a Party, who once sought to create international solidarity between workers, has created hatred and division.
There is also the additional problem of a universal benefit system, that was intended to be a safety blanket only to be used at the point of need, but are now benefits for the poor. Once you get in the system it is incredibly difficult to escape. There has been very little debate regarding what is to be done to get people off benefits into work other than the wonderful Tory poster that suggested that people on benefits were scroungers. Yes, this was met with derision from Labour and the Lib Dems but the more fundamental questions are still not being asked such as, why has a benefit called the job seekers allowance been constructed so that the only way the working class can receive it is to ensure that they work for less than the minimum wage? Why, is the only way to create incentives for the poor, is to take more away?
In truth the white working classes have long been abandoned by the Labour Party who by becoming centrist left, looked after the interest of middle class voters, while ignoring the increasingly desperate plight of their core vote. They did so because they arrogantly believed that the white working classes would not vote for any other party other than themselves. They may be proved wrong.
In Barking & Dagenham, The Dagenham Ford car works, which used to employ 40,000 people, ceased production in 2002. Unemployment is high (9.7% last year, compared with a British average of 6.9%). The borough is one of the poorest in the capital. Many people lack educational qualifications (23.2% of working-age residents, compared with a national average of 12.4%). A shortage of affordable housing has created severe overcrowding, and demographic changes have not helped. In 1991 just 6.8% of the population was non-white. The council estimates that the figure is now about 25%, one of the fastest rates of change in the country. The BNP argues that local unemployment and housing shortages are down to immigration. The failure of the 3 main parties to fully engage with how to address the concerns of white working classes, because they believe them simply to be bigoted or prejudiced only appears to support BNP?s agenda
A quote from Tony Travers, of the London School of Economics, says Labour ?is completely split about what to do about the threat of the BNP?. In fact all liberal parties find it hard to ?put across an offer that goes some way to recognising the aspirations and feelings of those who vote BNP?. But if they don?t engage with the people who support the BNP out of a sense of powerlessness, the party will advance. If it wins control of the council or a parliamentary seat, it will be time, Mr Travers concludes, ?to press the panic button?.
There are some incredibly patronising views on here regarding this working class woman because of the manner in which she expressed herself. Her views are ""limited and biased and probably based on what she reads and watches"", but not all from anything she is experiencing. They do not want your patronage, they want you to listen. Just exactly what is it they have to do to get your attention?"
This was fine until the "I pay a higher rate of income tax bit". I am sure many people on low wages, including eastern and central europeans, would love to be in a position to pay a higher rate of income tax.
"Remind me, wasn't it that area of East London/SW Essex that swung so spectacularly to Thatcher when times were good at Ford?
This is an indicator of some root problems. First off that the working class - or a significant chunk of it - deserted Labour before Labour deserted the working class. And they did so because Thatcher offered them individualism, offered them the promise of cutting free from collective support - so it is somewhat ironic that now things are not so good there are complaints that Labour is not doing enough for the ""white working class"".
I trod the streets canvassing for Labour in 1983 in the Midlands, and it was very dispiriting to walk up the path of a former council house, knock on the newly installed fancy door and then get treated to a tirade from the newly Thatcherite inhabitant - usually a production line worker in the carpet or motor industry - about the need to stand on your own two feet. I moved away a few years later and I'm sorry, I found it hard to work up much sympathy for those I canvassed when the West Midlands manufacturing gave up the ghost a few years later.
The second point, and one that few want to face up to, is that globalisation has changed the rules of the game. The UK minimum wage represents prosperity in Asia and Africa. Apart from the obvious magnet it provides for migrants, the deeper issue is that the world pay level for unskilled work is a long way below what UK - and other Western - workers expect. Since the 1850's European, and later Western domination of the world both militarily and economically has allowed the wages of unskilled workers to rise at home by creating a bubble around it. We are coming to the end of that era, and we are seeing the consequences. If immigrants aren't taking those unskilled jobs by undercutting local wages, then the work simply goes elsewhere. But things are very different for people with skills, and even more so when those skills are very marketable - the world pay levels for them is as high or higher than British levels. This is the inequality that is at the root of capitalism, but if you think that is healthy, just check out what is happening in Thailand at the moment.
The point I am trying to make, is that for all the heat being generated by immigration, spending cuts, bank bail outs and so on, we are just tinkering at the edges and not looking at the root cause."
_AT_Maritz: The "Left" you believe in isn't the left at all. Mass immigration is a right-wing policy. Or do you think that the CBI are on the left now?
"LiveButNotKicking


Leopold1904

Maybe it was, and maybe I did, but I wasn't half as nasty as telling people they need to talk to an immigrant in order to educate themselves and 'become a better person.'
I'm staggered that more people haven't picked up on the sheer ignorant bigotry of that remark. Far worse than anything Gillian Duffy is supposed to have said."
"Me too. I found Brown's self-implosion rather hilarious.
BizzarroJerry

Brown has absolutely no idea. You can't just write a pensioner off because she asks about immigration. Well, you can if you're 17."
"manhattancat

Oh FFS you talk as if she were tabling a motion at a Mumsnet meeting.
Yes, lashings of apologies and please do pass the cucumber sandwiches.
She's just expressing her bewilderment at a relatively sudden influx of immigrants. It's human nature.
Less of the faux disgust and snobbery, please. Some people are so out of touch it's unbelievable."
"True - and just to say, I salute AllyF.
He was absolutely right to call the writer out on this crass, ignorant, paternalistic and emotionalist piece of nonsense.
A period of reflection would be in order from her mimsy apologists."
"Mrs Duffy is being crucified, for what, her only crime was believing the 'Masculine Bovine Excrement' she reads in the press, and I'm willing to bet she reads the Daily Fail. She is not bigoted, just misinformed.
Of course immigration is a problem, this is only a small country, we can't cope with a huge influx of immigrants, but the illegal ones are the ones doing the author of this piece a disservice, not Mrs Duffy.
I hear more stories of immigrants who come here to commit crime than I do of the hard working type, THAT is the concern that Mrs Duffy has, and quite rightly so.
Not every Eastern European at Sangat is an honest upright citizen, and those Eastern Europeans who robbed people who had just collected cash from an ATM in Coventry certainly weren't upstanding citizens."
"I didn't cry, but at first I chuckled at how inept the whole thing was, then I felt embarrassed for Gordon Brown, then I just had a pit in my stomach at it all. It really is a bad sign for the people that the democracy of the country is more concerned with whether someone called someone a name than anything else.
Personally, I felt if perhaps she was at best mildly bigoted, then a far worse notion was her ignorance and lack of understanding of immigration in any way. Nations THRIVE on migrants, and part of the reason is because nations like the UK and USA reach a certain standard of living where the population will not do certain jobs, or are unwilling to do it for less than a certain wage. The whole reason why migrants from places like Poland are doing so well, is because as a whole, the UK populace has a higher standard of living, and higher expectations than the Polish populace, meaning the infamous ""Polish Plumbers""(As apocryphal a generalisation can get), work more partly because there was an infamous shortage of trained plumbers in the UK, and workers from other nations are more prepared to work harder for less pay, encouraging businesses to work with them, rather than non-migrants.
Also, it's not like the UK has only an ""IN"" door for migration - every year many people depart the UK and become ""Ex-pats"" in places like Spain and Australia, aswell as many other countries. There reasons are many, but my point is that countries work a lot like mobile phone networks - on ""Churn"", a term used to describe the amount of people leaving the network each year, versus the people who come to the network, even if the people arriving are former customers or simply people who disconnected then reconnected with a different number. Mobile phone networks chase down new business much more fervently than they attempt to retain existing business, because new business looks good on paper, which drives them higher in financial and PR terms. Nations benefit from churn because it drives the country onward, and in principle, furthers the opportunities and lifestyle of the people of said nations.
I despair of people like Gillian Duffy for relying on only the simplest form of information - what the papers tell you - and not having a decent grasp of either politics, or the world at large. Besides, sooner or later we'll all end up being migrants of some sort or another. Especially seeing as that's where the human race came from."
"Hi.
""Go home.""
Is what you should say to someone with the name ""Duffy"". It's Irish.
""Go home.""
Is what you should say to an Australian-American who's news network left the microphone on (the BBC would've faded it; Blair's Labour wouldn't have allowed it; I think even ITV would've canned it).
Go home.
Seriously, retreat to your home. Say hello to your bloke/girl/other person/cat/dog/fish/terrapin/budgie or phone your ma/pa/sis/bro/cousin/friend. F**k 'em.
Having watched the clip over and over ad nauseum, I still think Brown may have mis-heard ""flocking from"" as ""f**king from"". A Rochdale accent can be quite, err, distinct.
Oh, and your idea of ""look around"" - try asking Britons to ""look deep"". 4 generations should do: you, your parents, your grandparents and your great-grandparents. If you know past you grandparents: good! It means you're not poor (this is a serious poverty delineator - those who know their great-grandparents are more likely to be rich).
And if you still have no immigrants in those four generations, good on you, vote BNP. Here lies my theory: this number, I think, is small.
Me... #iloveimmigrants - one set of my great grandparents got here before the 1905 law came into force."
"Gillian Duffy is told:
""He had Matt's microphone on""
This is a smoking comment. Who is/was Matt? Did he have a ""special"" microphone? Why was it significant for Duffy to be told that a Matt had a microphone, and that that microphone had been planted on Gordon Brown.
Paranoid? Moi? Yep. Seen it and heard it all before.
Dirty rotten bastids.
http://twitter.com/UKLabourParty/status/13075669267"
Watching the clip it is quite clear that Mrs Duffy, faced with all the cameras, was nervous and flustered. I think she used the wrong words to try and articulate her concerns about state benefits. It is something affecting her personally and in her community. The over reaction is what is ridiculous. She isn't a bigot, just a victim of her nerves and possibly of not having the 'right' words anyway. Brown, as leader of this country, should recognise not all of his electorate have the same degree of education as politicians, used to word games, and be more tolerant. As should we all; British, Eastern European or otherwise. This articule hardly helps to not stir up prejudice with its insulting generalisations.
"I am quite concerned about all the excuses that are being made on behalf of Mrs. Duffy.
She was perfectly entitled to voice her concerns. There was no good reason to label her a bigot. Nor is there good reason to believe that she is 'misinformed', that she 'expressed herself crudely' or any of the other patronising remakes that have been made.
There would appear to be no reason to believe that Mrs. Duffy stepped out of the door on the day in question with the determination to ram her views down the throat of the public, unlike so many others.. She was asked her opinion and she gave it, no doubt based on her concerns. Those concerns were based on her experience of life, not mine, not yours and not Gordon Browns. She expressed her view in everyday English, not crudely, but honestly in plain, and polite language. That is a lot more than can be said about most of us commenting on the incident.
If you must excuse her remarks, and I don't, lets say that she was 'off message with current chattering class thinking.'"
"It made me so angry at the media for telling us how to react
It actually made me like Gordon Brown more for having a REAL opinion.
This article states everything I hate about all of the debates and the media
which is why I still have no idea who to give my first vote to"
"I would say this article is a bit overly dramatic in its description of a reaction to Mrs Duffy's comments. I agree with _AT_EvaWilt in that harsher things will be said and a thicker skin is needed.
The fact is that economic migration does have an affect on many services in the U.K and as voters we have the right to be able to speak out about it. It is a subject that is skirted round by the politicians and this is what makes it become a taboo and never mentioned. These sorts of situations play right into the hands of the BNP and offer them ammunition if people are silenced and not allowed to debate fairly on what is a legitimate political argument.
Many areas of our economy rely on migrant workers to supply the demand in a lot of job roles and fill them well. Without this a lot of the sectors would not function to their potential.
If we are not allowed to debate this openly and frankly as a justified political argument then it will disillusion people and in the long term it gives rise to the real bigots/racists in the BNP."
Vast minorities of the UK population are bigoted because of the newspapers they read. The Mail, Express and Sun are shameless exponents of group labelling. The Factssheet series about the UK in this week's Guardian would never be read by their readership for example. Though Mrs Duffy has an essentially good heart, there is no chance for her to be balanced with a right wing dominated national press. There simply would not be bigotry if people read the Guardian. The Mail simply fosters all the conditions necessary for fascist growth, end of story.
"If you don't like it, take the channel tunnel back to Europe and stay there.
My ancestors fought wars to keep Europeans in Europe and its all been undone by unscrupulous politicans letting any old foreigner in.
There aren't enough council houses or jobs around for the parasites of Eastern Europe.
Gordon Brown and Tony Blair would have been executed for treason in days gone by."
"This was my tweet within minutes of me reading the ticker on BBC News:
From BBC: BREAKING NEWS: Prime Minister Gordon Brown caught on microphone describing voter as 'bigoted woman' <Maybe xmlns:_12=""urn:x-prefix:_12"" xmlns:http=""urn:x-prefix:http"" she=""she"" was.=""was."" _12:_20=""_12:_20"" pm=""pm"" apr=""apr"" _28th=""_28th"" via=""via"" web=""web"" im=""im"" http:_=""http:_"" twitter.com=""twitter.com"" _1simonharris=""_1simonharris""></Maybe>"
Thank you Milena. I know how this must feel as I spent the last 15 years as an English immigrant in the Netherlands. Coming back here last year, it was a great surprise to see how much this country has benefited from the presence of Eastern European immigrants. They brighten the place up with their hard-working cheery natures and culture and I hope most of them decide to stay. This country needs you and does not need bigots. Poor old Gordon! He was supposed to meet Labour supporters and was confronted with an obvious mean-spirited bigot of a woman going on about being swamped by Eastern Europeans. What he said in the car was very mild and he was totally right to be annoyed with whoever set up the meeting. The media had no right to broadcast the recording. It was a political move and it looks like that one action is going to let Dave in. Clegg is the loser as immigration has become the number one issue. I'm very disappointed in my country and have decided it's pretty much doomed and broken for good. I'm making plans to move back to Amsterdam and stay there. I just cannot see how the UK can get out of this mess now the Tories are sure to get in again and I intend to vote with my feet. People in Holland are happy and with good cause.
"Actually now (ahem) having read the article I can see why it's created so much aggro.
Milena appears to have conducted her own poll based on ""about 90 mostly leftwing fluffy liberal people on Twitter and have another 60-odd LiveJournal friends""!!!!!

Well, bugger me. Maybe they had better things to do like working instead of twittering? And perhaps they were not inclined to throw a hissy fit just because an elderly woman asked the PM about immigration?

That is simply ridiculous. Do you expect citizenship as soon as you get off the plane? I've been an immigrant (to Germany) a lot longer than you have, and while it'd be nice to have the vote I don't wail on about being ""disempowered and disenfranchised"".
And claiming you are personally a ""target"" is just silly.

You've lost me on that one. Can anyone translate it?

I literally spat tea there.

So all British passport holders need to edcuate themselves and become better people?
Who's a bigot now, then?
And given that her contacts with British people appear limited to ""about 90 mostly leftwing fluffy liberal people on Twitter and have another 60-odd LiveJournal friends"" it's surely Milena that needs to get out and do some communicating with some real people."
"Why is it that everyone that has an opinion that varies from the Guardian line, not wrong, but simply misinformed?
Mass immigration has had a negative effect on many people in this country. They are not ""misinformed"" for recognising this and having an opinion about it."
"I'm an Eastern European (married to an Englishman). This breathtaking arrogance combined with such a level of ignorance has always puzzled me.
What is it exactly that bothers you so much about us? Effectively, we are only allowed to come and live in Britain if we can support ourselves. We aren't scroungers. We pay taxes, and on that basis we can use UK welfare facilities. (Note there are no such restrictions on Western Europeans.)
Gillian Duffy only brought up the Eastern Europeans when Gordon Brown had told her, ""don't worry about unemployment among young people, we will make them work after being jobless for 6 months"". Then she said ""But the Eastern Europeans..."", just stating the so-often rehearsed prejudice that young British unemployed are really desperate to go out and work, but they can't because of the nasty Eastern Europeans. Every time there is a problem with the NHS, the schools and other public services, it's us, draining the resources (as if we weren't all paying for them) - imagine what is feels like.
Yes, it does make you very bitter and you do bottle it up. The majority of these bigots don't know anything about Eastern Europe, you don't even know what Eastern Europe is, apart from the fact that it must be something nasty.
British people travel around the world telling other nations how to treat their ethnic minorities fairly, but they feel fully entitled to encourage unfair prejudices to spread at home.
After having lived here for 6 years all these Eastern Europeans can apply for British Citizenship, which means they can do other things - not just work - like vote. After having been practically treated like criminals and welcomed with ice-cold ignorant arrogance, what do you think they will say?
M"
"It seems having the temerity of being working class, not going to Oxbridge and daring to have an opinion is enough to get you castigated, condescended to and villified on Cif.
Both above and below the line.
I guess we should just know our place eh. Gordon; if you really want people to show deference, tug their forelock and not have ideas above their station then you aren't the leader of any labour party I recognise."
"Although some of the comments are far worse than the article because of their sheer pomposity and self-righteousness.
A prize specimen:
whatithink

Why is it OK for narrow-minded people like you to judge a person's character so swiftly? From my experience people like whatithink tend to be anything but left-wing and tolerant under their skin.

That shows how out of touch you are.

Oh yes, darling. All those simply spiffing champagne weekends in Vienna, wot.

That's strange. All she did was ask Brown about immigration.
Hilarious!"
"Another I apparently ""owe"" something too?
While you are on Guardian can you have a pop at Clegg for his outrageous ""80% of immigrants are from the EU"" gaffe (in fact under Labour only 31% have been)?
Clegg expressed an idea, often pushed by Sunny Hundal etc., which seeks to let ""progressives"" and New Labour away with its policy mistakes. Sadly it is what we call ""anti-racism racism""- choosing to discuss A8 migrants as though they are the problem, when in fact A8 migrants are actually quite useful compared to others from Africa and Asia.
However in the 1984esque mentality of ""progressives"" discussing immigrants from Africa & Asia ventures into verboten territory involving ideas of 'race' where the liberal-left fears to tread. Duffy is possibly a victim of this mentality, having been trained to avoid distinguishing between immigrants and to pick on the A8 ones because they are white and therefore 'touchable'."
"How about you explain it then ?
I can understand words like ""swamped"" ""floods"" etc having negative connurtations ? But flocking .
I did wonder if I was merely being ignorant - so I tried google. The first few hits included Led Zepplin fans ""flocking"" to a gig. Or football fans ""flocking"" to South Africa.
True bigots are very very careful about the language they use (they don't want to be accused of racism after all) so will use words like ""swamped"" ""floods"" or even a ""tidal wave"" as all these thing trigger a little bit of fear.
But flocking ? Please. Other than groups of people it's used to describe birds and sheep. Hardly the best way to inspire fear is it."
"I'm posting this comment which was in response to an article by Alexandar Chancellor just to show some solidarity with Milena.

And sorry AllyF your remarks are just as silly an example of poor little loyal me, I voted labour all my life and now look what they've done to me (equates to I've doffed my cap to the squire all my life, as did my parents, my grandparents) and somehow someone seems to think they can take advantage of my passive follower status.
Nobody told my neighbours or me in my inner city location that we would be flooded out by aspiring yuppies and their loft conversions to the extent that no one can afford to shop locally and local children are made to feel they arent entitled to play in the park because all the yummy mummies with their over size buggies want a quiet environment to suit them.
This is the 21st century. If you cant cope with change you should retreat to some remote island untouched by rapcious capitalism feed by our greedy consumption.
Diidums - nobody told you they were coming? Why haven't you found out by talking to the recent arrivals about what is so attractive about your area. And if it turns out that local employers are under paying then take it up with the unions or whoever.
By the way I have just heard that there is a vast housing surplus in Ireland. Whole new estates standing empty.
Maybe all those tight knit communities who never ever want to have to hear or be near someone who isn't exactly like them could move en masse there."
"As an immigrant I found this article embarrassing and hysterical on so many levels. And sorry, but I refuse to believe you broke down and wept because some old lady expressed concern about foreigners moving into her area.
You'd have hung yourself long ago if you genuinely couldn't cope with the mildest of mild descriptions of immigration. And I daresay Mrs Duffy pales in comparison to the far nastier brand of racism you would have come across in Eastern Europe.
Personally, I'm grateful that I'm treated better and accepted here more than I would be in any other European country.
If you were integrating successfully here, you'd feel comfortable in the knowledge that the British are exceptionally tolerant, but are just starting to raise eyebrows as their communities, housing, shops and industries are undergoing considerable transformations as a result of mass immigration. But of course, you'd know that about the Brits if you took the following approach:

AllyF
I've read your post twice now and am struggling to find the bit where you were supposedly nasty.
There's nothing remotely racist about feeling concerned about the demography of your area changing overnight. It genuinely worries me that so many people are still incapable of talking about immigration like adults, though I'd imagine the BNP are enjoying their monopoly on the issue that has been handed to them by the people who cry racism every time the word 'immigration' is mentioned."
"_AT_deepgully

Not for the wages that are currently paid, no."
"""I'm willing to bet she reads the Daily Fail. She is not bigoted, just misinformed""
Congratulations on contributing the most cliched, supercilious and misinformed remark on this thread. The competition was close (just wordsearch the word 'Daily'), but the sheer dull predictability of this ignorant remark gave you the edge.
FYI Most of my work collegues agreed with miss Duffy's views and they are all left wing Daily Mirror readers.
Now if you'll excuse me, having disagreed with you, I'm necessarily off to read the Daily Mail, join the BNP and hang a huge Union Jack outside my house."
Thank you so much for this. I'm an immigrant, I work and do a PhD. I'm careful, conscientious, kind, and interested in my neighbours, my city, and the country. And about a week ago the woman who lives in the house next door told me I ought to go home because it's people like me who are draining the UK economy and ruining the country. That was so hurtful and so unbelievable. Thank you for putting immigrant experience into words and putting it in so prominent a space. Thank you for verbalising the feeling of being foreign (and made to feel it over and over). I hope you aren't too taken to task for it.
I think we should apologised to her for coming to this country without asking her and rest of the people who don't want as here,sorry for paying a tax and try to live as British people(end of the day we are part of the Europe and European union,) History does reaped and karma does exist,what comes around goes around ,Britain ones occupied, colonised other countries without permission . I am myself from Slovakia and I lived here for 11 years but stayed here because I fell in love with British man and Britain as well.I do understand Milena because I fell some way. I do believe only one think there are only good and bad people and there are also gives and takes,than be grownup about it and leave MRS Duffy to her ignorance and money she got for letting papers to published her story for quite bit sum of money,so much for proud to be British
"I like the article, but I see the last paragraph as outrageously patronising.
You are right that Brown had no choice but not to challenge her in a straightforward manner. A lot of people commenting on other articles have suggested that if Brown felt that she was bigoted (as he evidently did), that he should have challenged her for it to her face. Such a claim, in my view, pays no attention to political reality, and I think that your article does well in bringing this out."
THANK YOU for writing this. The media and public's reaction to GB's outburst is totally over the top. Sure, it's was a stupid thing to say, but the woman was not exactly angelic. What a state we are in if an election is to be decided on something as trivial as this.
"Milena
I find what you have written offensive. I am very tired of immigrants complaining about the British being racist, lazy, bigotted etc etc. I know it is hard to be a foreigner but what can we do? From what I can see this country has been more than welcoming to the immigrants from Eastern Europe. The Supermarkets are stocked with Polish goods, Polish shops have opened up everywhere, libraries stock Polish books, there are Polish clubs, banks have notices in Polish, the vast majority have been able to find work etc etc. I have often tried to converse with Polish immigrants but they seem to have a limited vocabulary and although they can do a good job at the check out they are not able to carry on a conversation. They are foreigners, English is not their mother tongue. It?s a strange situation to have millions of people flocking in from other countries why is it not possible for you to see that. Would there not be the same concerns in Poland if there were a mass influx of people from other countries?"
"Yes, you. All of you with the British passports and the
huge sense of entitlement.
Oh, so sorry for being born in a country!"
The Polish immigrants could also make an effort to communicate with me and ask me what it feels like to have so many people coming here from Eastern Europe. Unfortunately all the Polish people I encounter are with other Polish people and are always speaking Polish and make no effort to communicate with me.
"ikithomozi
I'm assuming you mean you do not have a British passport and therefore do not have the same rights as British citizens.
What can we do? We can't solve all the World's problems. Perhaps it's time for all the economic migrants who come here to stay at home and try and sort out the problems in their own country."
Please do not cry Milena... English people learnt parliamentarianism from 16th-18th century Eastern Europe. It seems that still they do not have enough deep tradition of it. There is a shade of ?Empire? here. Many poor people are xenophobic and feel cheated by their politicians, just like citizens of Germany before the Second World War... Taking into consideration the level of discussion (sometimes people even cannot distinguish other countries in Europe) we should be glad that they usually do not vote for BNP... Look around you can still find here some intelligent people...
"fromcliffs
Are you speaking as an Englishman?
There is something about your sentence construction that makes me wonder!"
"One think puzzle me why everybody things that if you are from Eastern Europe you have to be from Poland it is same as somebody from America would say that all English are from London.Could I just say that Poland is central Europe.
And also quoting from Wikipedia
Several definitions of Eastern Europe exist today, but they often lack precision or are extremely general. These definitions vary both across cultures and among experts, even political scientists, recently becoming more and more imprecise [12].
The Economist and other sources argue that ""Eastern Europe"" is a mala fides (consciously misleading and inaccurate) socio-economic and cultural stereotype routinely used by Western conservatives for post-Communist countries.[13][14] It is asserted that the double standard becomes apparent when a comparison between Western Europe and the more developed regions of ""Eastern Europe"" reveals broad similarity in indicators such as quality of life, budget deficit and corruption. In fact, a global quality of life index by International Living (2010) places four ""Eastern European"" countries in the top 30 with Hungary leading at the 20th place.[15] ""[T]he term 'Eastern Europe' has become meaningless, both as a generic geographic or economic label.""[16][17][18][19][20]
[edit] CIA
The CIA World Factbook[21] describes the following countries as located in:
Central Europe: Austria, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia
Eastern Europe: Belarus, Estonia[22], Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova and Ukraine
Southeastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Kosovo, Republic of Macedonia, Romania, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey
Russia is defined as a transcontinental country.
in your face"
"As a Scot I know fully well about the bigotry, belittlement and downright nastiness, not only on a UK level with the Jock baiting but also with the downright level of aggressiveness that is displayed by some fellow Scots towards their countrymen so I can understand why some people feel the need to let our their frustrations but I fail to understand the level of vitriol towards AllyF on this forum.
Can someone please explain?"
"katthecat
I found your post to be quite boring. What was your point?"
"JockMcDoc
What is this thread 'Victims of the World Unite'?
Who is AllyF?"
"Beforeal
Why you want solve the problems of the whole world did anybody ask you?"
"BeForReal _AT_ 30 Apr 2010, 6:02PM
Maybe if you didn't spend as much time trolling and looked through the comments on this article you would know who AllyF is and the reaction to this comment which I am talking about."
"BeFor Real:
'fromcliffs
Are you speaking as an Englishman?
There is something about your sentence construction that makes me wonder!'
Proudly NOT (especially in this case:)... but what about you... are you speaking as an European? There is something in your mental construction that makes me wonder..."
"Beforreal
The point is educational and sorry for asking you but are you a Sun or a Guardian Reader?"
"Thank you, Milena, for raising this. Someone had to say something
I don't believe that xenophobia will ever stop being a political trump card - foreigners will always be blamed for poisoning wells, flooding or ""flocking"" any country.
Obviously immigration is vital for the economy, but the other issue is that it is illegal not to allow EU member states to flock here.
Anyway - just wanted to say thank you"
"Proudly: NOT (especially in this case:) But what about you... are you speaking as a European?
There is something about your mental construction that makes me wonder..."
"fromcliffs
I'm not sure if I am a European? Perhaps you can tell me what would entitled me to call myself European. Why do you say you are proud not to be an Englishman? Is this not a tad racist? Don't worry if you are I'm not as sensitive as JockMcDoc and I don't mind a bit of racism/Jock baiting. KattheCat: My answer re worlds problems was to 'ikithomozi'"
"BeForReal _AT_ 30 Apr 2010, 6:35PM

It's the first time I've head understanding where somebody is coming from is being sensitive?"
"JockMcDoc
It's the first time I've head understanding where somebody is coming from is being sensitive?
I don't understand your post! Habla Espanol?"
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"BeForReal
Aren?t you proud to be an Englishmen? You do not need to be racist if you are proud citizen of your country. It is not racism. I like Englishmen and English women:) but I do not think I need to treat them in any special, patronizing way or just differently then other European nations; especially in terms of ignorance, bigotery or racism. I do not want treat my English friends as people with learning difficulty, especially using this kind of stereotype... hope you do not want such a strange situation as well..."
"fromcliffs:
Aren?t you proud to be an Englishmen?
No because I am not English and I don't live in England, although I was never really offended when most people in other European countries assumed because I was from the UK that I was English."
"AllyF
I'm staggered that more people haven't picked up on the sheer ignorant bigotry of that remark. Far worse than anything Gillian Duffy is supposed to have said.
Still digging a completely pointless hole. The author's failings are so totally not the point here. It's very egotistical to blame one's own unexamined emotions on another person you know.
How fucking dare you?
As for visiting where you live. Well, Ally, that's more ego - why does it matter a flying fuck where you happen to live? What's so important about your experiences that they trump whatever mine might happen to be, or what the author's actually are?
Use your influence and get a column here on CiF for one of the 'Romas' who's causing so much trouble apparently."
I find it absolutely remarkable that the immigration discussion in this country is so dishonest. Gillian Duffy makes the comment she does, which you don't have to b Eastern European to be outraged at. Its not so long ago the sentiment was directed at Africans, Pakistanis and Afro-Carribbeans. And then the media and everyone will pretend that having such a reaction to her comments is to stifle an honest immigration debate. It is a nonsense. Let us be honest here - Britain has a history which whether you like it or not means that it has absolutely no right to tell anyone to go back to where they came from. Britain has spent most of its time being in countries in which it had no business being. And then it finds those whose lands it had turned to waste on its door step and it wonders why. Its dishonest and as an African, it is the single most infuriating aspect of my life. And the least any British person can do and I honestly don't care how ill educated you are, just as you dont care about me - there are enough books around - go and educate yourself. But the least you can do is talk about this very serious issue with a pinch of bloody respect for these immigrants you're talking about.
"katthecat
30 Apr 2010, 6:28PM
Beforreal
The point is educational and sorry for asking you but are you a Sun or a Guardian Reader?
Cheers thanks for the lesson. Anytime I can return the favour I would be glad to give you some English lessons."
"shootingfishuk:
Please tell me the name of your country and I will be happy to read all about it.
I will endeavour to educate myself.
There has got to be a better answer to the problems than to have everyone come to live & work the UK. It is just a small island. Have you any suggestions what we can do to make up for all the damage you say this country has done to your country."
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"_AT_BeForReal
You seem just the kind of individual who comes to all important issues with the required sense of open-mindedness and yearning for learning that assures me that your point of view is not only well-considered but absolutely necessary for a forward-moving dialogue that leads right to the kind of solution politicians and academics alike have been grasping for for so many decades.
You see, we can all be sarcastic but its not that clever.
I am Nigerian by the way but don't stress yourself out too much on all the reading available on the subject. Telling people their opinions are not valid because they cannot construct proper English sentences seems more your forte, you Oxford don you."
"shootingfishuk:
Thanks for letting me off the hook! I wasn?t looking forward to a lot of reading about Nigeria. I did read that Nigerians were the happiest people in the world and the Romanians were the unhappiest! I guess you are not one of the happy Nigerians."
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This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"shootingfishuk:
You are making me laugh me now! Everything you said about me is true although you have twisted my words a little. I did say 'I don't mind a bit of racism/Jock baiting' that's true I am never offended by anything anyone says about my nationality or ethnic origin.
I would never use the word 'spiffin' that is just too English/Posh for me 'Old Chap'"
"Thanks for your comments Dimitri - you've hit the nail on the head. The sanctimonious, self-righteous, ignorant, petty and hypocritical Mail, Express, Telegraph etc portray immigration as a one way street but what about all the Brits going abroad and setting up little British ghettos and refusing to integrate (they just shout loudly and slowly at the locals). Spain is a good example, and there are many more. Frequently they are the very same people who moan about 'Eastern Europeans' ruining the British way (whatever that is - binge drinking and obsessing over house prices?), yet they cannot see the irony of the situation. And to all those who get on their high horse about 'Eastern Europeans coming over here, taking our hardworking Brits' jobs', Britain has done a very good job at taking over the years: colonialism, imposing its culture on other countries, plundering their resources, etc. etc. The vast majority of migrants are just trying to make an honest living and to uproot and go and live in a different country shows initiative and drive in itself. Pity so many native Brits can't get off their fat rear-ends and show similar initiative.
And we're not living in the Cold War era any more - Poles, Czechs etc are Central Europeans."
"lapsed

I beg to differ. They are entirely the point here."
"Milena, I am an immigrant as well. Granted, not from Eastern Europe, but from Ireland - so not so far away from home. But an immigrant in a sometimes strange and wonderful country nonetheless.
No one has a problem with immigrants who have a right to be in the UK, whether from Eastern Europe or any other country. In fact, they are welcome, and I think most people would admit that they work hard and benefit the economy. However, I do think you are taking this comment too personally, and that immigration is a serious issue in the UK. Obviously black market economies are always going to be a drain on a country's resources, and there are other more destructive aspects of illegal immigration, like drug-running, gangs, sex slavery etc.
I think the Brown-bashing has been justified - this was not a media sting, as his team asked for the mike. He had definitely been briefed on the issue as it was debated on the first TV debate. His answer was a lazy dismissal of an issue that concerned Mrs Duffy. Granted, her phraseology was lazy and ignorant in blaming the ""other"", as many people's is, and no doubt heavily influenced by an equally lazy tabloid press - but calling someone a bigot based on what she actually said was over the top. This ""private"" conversation exposed Gordon Brown for what he is: unstable, a bully (he immediately blames poor ""Sue""), unfit to lead the countr"
"_AT_BeForReal
I am having great time with you. Its hilarious. I am sure you dont get offended by things people say about your nationality/ethnic origin. Good for you. How often do people call you a Kaffa in the street? people you have never spoken to, met or seen, in your life? Its South African for Nigger. Let me tell you something my jolly friend, that happens to you a few times, and you get a little jittery, lets say, at bigotry.
Its past my bed time now but I'd like to impress on you that immigration policy should never stem from the fact that Polish people in your area don't seem to want to talk to you. Maybe you're not offering them enough of an interesting talking point.
And no one is saying you have to go reading about every former British colony in order to come upon sensible solutions to immigration but it would be benefit the national conversation that when you talk about immigrants you bear in mind that we are not synthetic 'others' who have come here for the mere pleasure of annoying British people who detest speaking languages that are not English. History is a gloriously continuous process and and you will find that this ""problem"", the EU aside, has not just ""happened"" to this country."
"shootingfishuk:
I live in Scotland not South Africa and I am so white I am almost pale blue so the chances of anyone calling me a Kaffa/Nigger are highly unlikely.
I get the impression you are not too keen on British people so I am wondering why you have chosen to live here?"
"_AT_BeForReal
Why do you get the impression I don't like British people? This is the hypocrisy of the so-called debate. We have been prompted by Gillian Duffy to talk about immigration because her being called a bigot by the Prime Minister was deemed unreasonable. It is being said that those who have reacted to her words about ""flocking"" Eastern Europeans are stifling 'honest debate'. So I have come on here and added my 2 cents like everyone else as a small way of explaining why we foreigners would prefer a slightly more respectful tone in this conversation if this debate is going to lead to anything positive both for British people and stupid foreigners like myself who have decided to come and live/work here. And because of that I now, in your words, dislike British people.
I do not wish to bore you with the details of why I came here but let me make it clear I have been here for 12 years. I came here as a 13 year old child with my parents who themselves have lived here for 50 years. The education system in my home country was deemed unacceptable. That's Nigeria's fault not yours but hey. I have been in depthly educated here as has my entire family. My partner is white and British. My sister was born here and is British.
I don't think you want to have an honest conversation about this and that is fine. But don't you and the Ms Duffys of the world pretend that you do. You want to tell me how you feel, you want to be able to call me whatever you think is fitting and you want to be able to tell me to go back where I came from. And you want to do all this whilst I keep my mouth shut. And if I dare open it, then I don't like British people. Maybe Britain isn't ready for an honest discussion about this - like you say its only a small litttle innocent island nation - it has not ever tried to punch above its weight before. But when it is ready, I would be happy and willing to have it."
"Well she was speechless and cried ?? I find that hard to believe as Ms Milena Popova has been in the UK for 10 years and has lived in other european countries too. (Austria and Germany) For a Bulgarian lady to be so so shocked while she has been working in European countries for many years before Bulgaria came into the EU is unbelievable.
Anger at Gillian Duffy -Why?? She spoke the truth. Many eastern european citizens HAVE flooded into the UK, is that in dispute??
It is beside the point that on average they are hard workers,it is just that there are too many of them."
"Ally, you've lost it mate. She wrote an over-emotional, not all that cool conclusion to a piece about personal feelings just as valid as the ones felt by your neighbours. How did you and your feelings become such an important part of the story? I just don't get it. You're often wrong but you've always been worth talking to (except when spinning out laboured anti-Brown jokesey stuff maybe.)
Anyway, Milena will survive, Mrs Duffy will probably pocket a fair bit of cash and we'll move on eh?"
"I find this disingenuous ?this looks like an attempt on your part to illicit sympathy from the reader ? but it is a failed attempt. Yes, I know how hard it is to live in a foreign culture, I?ve done it myself when I have lived abroad, but feeling sorry for yourself isn?t really a trait that many people sympathise with, Ms Popova. You have made the decision to live here, living in a different culture has its advantages and disadvantages ? sure people could be more understanding, but it is what it is, writing an article full of your personal angst and victim mentality isn?t going to make people understand.

As I said above, you choose to live here, this is not your native country what on earth makes you believe you are entitled to vote? Paying your taxes is all well and good, and I am sure that you and many others work hard, but you have to acknowledge that you are not British Citizen just because you pay tax, I don?t live abroad and expect representation from a foreign government ? so why are you bemoaning something that is inevitable?

Welcome to British politics. I am frankly surprised you haven?t heard worse comments from British people down your local pub. I don?t agree with some attitudes British people take towards immigrants, but Gillian Duffy did not actually say anything bigoted except daring to ask a question on immigration. If you are going to take such comments personally, I suggest simply not watching the news.

Guess what, Ms Popova, British citizens ARE entitled because it is our country, we have a right to be listened to because this is our native home and culture. Don?t get me wrong, having immigrants in the country adds to the economy and it is a good thing, but what I don?t like is people like yourself making out that the British are not entitled to have their opinions heard because it upsets you. The world does not revolve around you, and it is unreasonable to expect British people to change because you want it to be so.
?Be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that you are trying to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something.?
Now who is being bigoted? This is the most condescending part of this article ? just who do you think you are? Maybe you should take your own advice and actually speak with the British public without judging us all to be ignorant of immigrant communities. You really must have very little love for the British that you think we each need to do what you advise in order to become ? and I quote ? a better person? Shame on you and your hypocrisy, Ms Popova.
Lose the victim-mentality and the chip off your shoulder and tone down the angst maybe you can actually get a decent dialogue here about how difficult it is for immigrants living in a foreign culture. I am very interested in this kind of discussion because I have lived abroad myself and understand what it feels like and I can empathise with immigrants living in Britain. But as it stands, if you approached me with that attitude I?d just as quickly tell you to dry those damn eyes and go back home."
"lapsed _AT_ 1 May 2010, 6:03AM

Considering how Mrs Duffy found out in a really painful way what the leader of the party who she voted for all her life and lived by the ideals that the party was founded thought of her I don't grudge her getting some financial recompense."
You obviously never lived or worked in Spain then :P
"Shootingfishuk:
Gillian Duffy did not say ?flocking? Eastern Europeans. I think you are being hyper-sensitive you are twisting peoples words to suit your own agenda. You are looking for ?racism? where none exists. You seem to want to put yourself in the role of victim.
I don?t think I could have any form of discussion with you until you get rid of the gigantic chip you seem to have on your shoulder. From my perspective Britain has bent over backwards to be accommodating and respectful to the many races & cultures who live here and I think we have reached the stage where we are tired of hearing your demands. I am afraid to communicate with any ethnic minority in case I offend them and find myself being accused of racism."
"From article:

This debate is over as it is going round in circles but one last post, hopefully.
This goes to the heart of this debate. It seems that opinions about negative aspects about immigration is being interpreted as attacks on individual immigrants.
There is no doubt that those you don't like immigrants period are exploiting this for their own ends but there are folk like Mrs Duffy who are genuinely concerned about the effects of immigration on them and their loved ones and are afraid to express it because they are scared and more importantly that are giving support to the anti-immigration brigade. I think a little more understanding should be given to those people who are caught in the position where they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I guess that what happens when immigration is left to go out of control."
"CulturalCate
Fantastic post! Well done. I totally agree with everything you have said.
Vinohrady
?Brits going abroad and setting up little British ghettos and refusing to integrate (they just shout loudly and slowly at the locals). Spain is a good example, and there are many more.?
The people you are describing are people who have gone to Spain to retire. British people who work in Spain have to be able to speak the language they are mostly running their own business or working in the tourist trade. All the jobs requiring a minimum of language skills are being done by the Spanish. Gordon Brown did say that millions have gone from this country to work in Europe. Apart from Spain where have they gone?
?Pity so many native Brits can't get off their fat rear-ends and show similar initiative. ?
Pity you can?t be more supportive or understanding why they don?t."
"JockMcDoc
Very well said."
"BeForReal _AT_ 1 May 2010, 10:23AM

Lol. I thought you were going to say I was being over sensitive!!
Funnily enough I am actually taking that as a compliment because I have been pulled up a few times in real life with my frank comments against immigration. Maybe I do go too far sometimes and don't connect brain to mouth but I am trying my best to stop doing it!"
"Hi Jock
No I didn't think you were being over sensitive today.
I had my doubts about you last night when you were complaining about 'Jock baiting'
Have a good week-end. xxx"
"BeForReal _AT_ 1 May 2010, 10:48AM

I was trying to put across the point that it is not only the immigrants that get alienated by comments put across in some parts of the media and that I understand their position. Apologies if it never came across that way.
Have a good weekend too."
"Great article, thanks for this.
The real story though, was that we got to see what our modern democracies are all about. One, the public politician asking for votes, tolerating a bigot to her face and asking politely about her grandkids. On the other hand, actually being honest (but only when in the car, thinking votes weren't up for grabs etc. etc.) The tragedy is, for a second I gained a lot of respect for Brown after he called her bigotted. The second he apologised I knew he was spineless, like all of our ""representatives""."
"JockMcDoc _AT_ 1 May 2010, 11:17AM
Also just to say in my experience it is fellow Scots who are worse for Jock baiting than English people. I can understand the frustrations of the English with the some of the unfairness of the union that benefits Scotland and taking a step back, I can see why some perceive the arrogance of Salmond and fellow SNP politicians but in their defence at least they are honest and transparent about their agenda. What I can't understand is the hatred and contempt some Scots have to their brethren but I guess that is our nature as we have a tendency to fight with our own shadows.
Anyway, that is something that needs to be discussed elsewhere and probably goes back to my earlier comment about differentiating between debating on policies towards communities rather than individuals of that community."
"_AT_Vinohrady said

See? This is exactly what I'm talking about. You probably just think you're being funny, or possibly you really believe that this is all that British immigrants ever do, but in either case that right there is real bigotry, sonny.
Guess what? You're wrong. British people can and do learn other languages. They can and do integrate. Despite endless intolerance, crass stereotyping and bigotry. Sure, some fail to do so or just don't see the point - just like many immigrants into this country. But many do. You'll never admit it, though - it's more fun to sling mud around the stage than to take the time to understand the plot.
Sad."
"shootingfishuk:
Now you are being explicitly dishonest with yourself. She did say flocking. She said ""where are they FLOCKING from""
That is what she said. She did not say 'Flocking' Eastern Europeans. You have twisted her words as have many others to try to suggest she said 'F*ckin Eastern Europeans'
This suggests to me that you want to be a victim.
I'm not afraid of names and if you want to call me a racist or a bigot that's OK. There's not a lot I can do about it there is no law protecting me from your name calling. I on the other hand have to tread very carefully. I have to watch my every word. I could end up in court being charged with racial abuse because I was not aware of the politically correct term to use when expressing my views hence my reluctance to enter into any discussion with ethnic minorities."
"_AT_BeForReal
ahh.. poor you. you could end up in court now, could you? who is the victim now? How pathetic. Believe it or not I dont want to call you a rascist or a bigot. I have no idea who you are. I just know a person who explicitly says they don't want to enter into discussions with ethnic minorities because they are not aware of the politcally correct terms to use has some serious issues. God help us all. Well I am an ethnic minority and I deeply apologize for engaging in conversation with you over this issue and for any pain it may have caused you having to do it. So i'm over and out here.
_AT_AllyF
While I do not completely agree with everything you have said, you have expressed sentiments that have gone a long way to making me see the other side of this issue. I think if Gillian Duffy had expressed herself the way you did - which is to say Prime Minister, no one told us, that in my neighbourhood we would see such a huge influx of Polish people when they joined the European Union, why didn't anybody tell us and so on and so forth, I doubt Brown would have had any reason to say what he said.
And while I am not saying that people have to speak in a certain way for their opinions to be valid I do believe that in this kind of a debate how you express yourself is important especially if you are going to do it with the Prime Minister on national news."
"Shootingfishuk
No problem ?shootingfish? I?m quite happy engaging in conversation with you on this forum. I have the moderators to keep me right in case of any slip up on my part. It has been quite enlightening to hear your point of view.
shootingfishuk:
?And while I am not saying that people have to speak in a certain way for their opinions to be valid I do believe that in this kind of a debate how you express yourself is important especially if you are going to do it with the Prime Minister on national news.?
Please tell me why it is important?"
"I thing there are many angry people here with lot's of personnel issue
And by the way Beforreal I probably know more about Great Britain than you do,(thanks for offering me free lesson,I will pass)more to the point as I already say there are bad people and good people,people come from different background,and we do live in 21 century not in medieval time.Im not trying to pick a fight,so be nice and group up.So if you believe that you are wright that's fare enough,but we all have wright to do so,no matter where we come from."
"katthecat:
I wasn't offering you a free geography lesson I was offering you help with your English. Why would you assume you know more about Great Britain than I do?
Are we having some sort of contest?
If you believe your are wright that is fare enough. I believe I am right and that too is fair enough. Sorry I couldn't resist!
I thought when you asked me if I was a Sun or a Guardian reader you were looking for a bit of a spat.
I am always happy to oblige and will I give as good as I get. If you really want a hug you will have to do a bit more grovelling."
"BeForReal:
They are not just retired people. Many are of working age, and have not learned Spanish. I have read about plenty of cases and seen a documentary about Britons in Spain. And even if they were all retired, they still need to have some linguistic skills, surely? And There are Britons who have bought up property in France, Italy and Bulgaria.
millinonesuch:
I am not saying all Brits fail to learn other language. I live abroad myself and speak the local language, and I know many Britons living in other countries who do so too. But there IS a problem with Britons going abroad and failing to fit in and then having the cheek to whinge about immigrants 'taking over' or 'ruining our way of life'. And then there's the problem of drunken holidaymakers in Faliraki for example, or stag parties being out of order in Prague. I've seen plenty of examples of the latter. Maybe it's because Briton is an island and/or a throwback to the Empire, but there's no excuse for such culturally insensitive behaviour and attitudes."
"I understand that you feel discriminated against but she was asking a perfectly legitimate and valid question and besides, what does ""all the people who didn't stand up to her"" mean? I like to think we live in a country where people are allowed to ask questions of their political leaders, I believe that's called the freedom of speech, just like you have the freedom to post on this website how you feel.
I would also like to point out that I doubt she was referring to the immigrants such as yourself who have come here legally and contribute as much to the society and economy as you do, and more to the illegal immigrants who's only contribution is forming underground criminal organisations and supplying drugs, weapons and prostitution rings, and if you believe that these people don't exist then I'm sorry but you are both ignorant and naive.
I completely believe in the integration of other ethnic communities into ours but at the same time, people have a right to question it. That is what the freedom of speech and opinion is all about."
I am still chuckling at the thought of Milena Popova's 'great heaving sobs'.
There has been a sudden and massive influx of human beings from a specific source. The sustainability of this population growth (with regards to the economy, welfare and social cohesion) is questionable. This unheralded occurance is at the very least confusing to someone who has lived in that area for 66 years. This is the concern Mrs Duffy raised in a very calm and reasoned way without attacking or blaming anyone. It is a terrible shame you have taken it so personally.
"I would actually also like to add that I find your subtitle ""This disenfranchised eastern European will receive no apology"" is provocative and misleading as you are insinuating that you have been denied the right to vote. As an EU resident you are allowed to vote in local and parliamentary elections without British citizenship, but to vote in a general election you are required to have citizenship and I see nothing wrong with this.
I can think of no other country in the world where you can vote in the equivalent of the general election without being a citizen of that country and I wouldn't expect to have that right in another country, so for you to assume that you should have that right is this country is quite frankly insulting. It's presumably been your choice not to naturalise and gain the right to vote but please don't insinuate, and that is exactly what you have done, that you have been denied it because of who you are."
"She's now come out and said she won't vote because of this.
This woman claims to be a lifelong labour supporter.
She doesn't have to vote for Brown, she votes for her LOCAL candidate. Can someone explain this to her.......Please.
I am personally offended by David Cameron every time he opens his mouth. He doesn't even wait til he's off mike to offend me! Can I get the publicity that Gillian Duffy has got?
Just an aside: One of my pals told me yesterday that The Guardian has come out in support of the Liberal democrats.... that's a joke right?"
"Well Milena Popova perhaps we can try to educate the 'unbigoted' of Britain with contemporary art?!? If like that 'un-bigoted' woman of Rochdale they wonder about 'all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?', they might be in luck.
The Viennafair of contemporary art (May 5th-9th) not only has an on-line catalogue search tool that might educate the ?un-bigoted? about the names of Central and Eastern European countries; it will even focus on their contemporary art, which they might bring with them to compete for British art collectors, grants and press coverage. Sorry I started to try to scare the 'unbigoted' again, it is just so easy.
With the UK descending into a theatre where it is important to make newcomers feel as unwelcome as possible, perhaps it is time to take a trip to Vienna between May 5th to the 9th for something a little less little-islander and more stimulating to say the least. If people take a little time to reflect whilst they are there, it might also be possible to think of a few nearby historic warnings which demonstrate the dangers of worrying too much about where our neighbours were born and what their heritage is."
"Well Dr Jo I might eventually get around to looking at the Art, Culture, Geography and History of Eastern Europe. In the meantime I am busy with Islamic Art, Hindu Art, Sikhism, Buddhism, Chinese Art & Culture, African Art, Jamaica Art and when I am finished with all of that I might get around to looking at Eastern European Art & Culture. No promises that I will look at contemporary art I generally find it is a load of ****** ****!
However I will carry out the survey suggested by Milena Popova.
I wont forget to be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that I am trying to educate myself; I will try to understand and to become a better person. I?ll listen I wont judge. Perhaps I?ll learn something.
1. What it's like being an immigrant in the UK?
2. How does it feel to be so far away from home?
3. What is it like to leave your life behind and start again from scratch?
4. What is it like to be in the middle of a general election where you have no voice?
5. Why did you come here?
6. What do you like about Britain?
7. What don?t you like about Britain
8. What's it like where you come from?
Are you an immigrant? Would you like to start the ball rolling by completing my online survey? I get the feeling from reading this forum that there will bit quite a high number of negative responses to No 6."
Afghanistan?
"Brilliant, Ed. I agree with nearly everything you have said, but...
You are supposed to be the most left wing of all the candidates, so does the error you admitted today stand alone, or just maybe, were the neoliberal economic thinking that justified them wrong too?"
"Very depressing to see a member of the Labour party go in for some cheap immigrant bashing.
Too lazy to actually develop a counter-argument you've decided to try to pander to all of the prejudices and bigots. I guess you must be really desperate for the support of the racist wing of the Labour party in the leadership election."
I for one will never vote for you. You may think there are votes in racism, and you may be right, but you should focus on the people you have alienated by your slide to the right, not the few bigots who will be impressed by this bullshit.
In view of this admission I expect the Labour Party to elect Mrs. Duffy as their next leader. At least she invoked the question when we required an answer, not when she required votes!
How about a language test? Free movement within the EU, but to settle one must pass a proficiency test in the language of the local area. Oh, I know the expat UKs in Spain would not be happy with it, but why not try it?
So how does Labour plan to solve the problem of an ageing population?
"So our European partners should humbly learn from Labour's exemplary stewardship of our economy?
Hmmm ........"
"Ed Balls

Nope.
""We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain""
Roost - Home - Coming - To - Chickens?
Thanks for the article though. It has revealed you as being just a little bit further to the right than Genghis Khan.
I am so glad you people were removed from office. You appeared to have learned absolutely nothing during your month out of government.

What you really mean is this: give me another chance to show you all that I wont listen to anyone.

Wasn't it Gordon Brown who said something like...
""British jobs for British workers""
Barely one month out of government and already you have forgotten all of the lies that were posted by labour.
Tell you what... why don't you just go away. You are no longer wanted nor are you trusted. You have sown lies and dishonesty and it is no surprise to find that your mendacity is reaping the rewards.
*_AT_%$ &^)! (expletive deleted)"
"Immigration, holocaust denial, Turkey and the BNP in one article.
Just missing out on paedophiles to seal the deal there Ed.. If only you would run for leadership...
Oh hold on...
Labour is out for the count for the next 8 years. Let's hope you (and the Sillybands et al) have retired/passed on/emigrated by then.
Oh hold on..
Then you will be an immigrant elsewhere. I rather wonder, Kennedy Scholar and all, whether you would pass a points system since you're not actually qualified to do anything useful.."
"It isn't 'Eastern Europeans' that most of the Uk population has a problem with, Ed.
Poles have become a symbol of honest work and fair pay. They speak better English than the natives, too.
One cannot say the same about other arrivals, who appear to have no interest or empathy with the host culture."
"Ah I see. So, your strategy for winning the leadership is to out-Tory the Tories on immigration.
Of course this article could have been titled, ""We were wrong on immigration"". But, why go for that, when you can single out a particular group."
"What you did was fail to tackle the fact that immigration in this country has never been debated honestly or with the needs of the country at hand. It has always been a football between right and left. You decided to switch hit to the right because you thought that it would be good for the Daily Mail vote plain and simple. You miscalculated the effect that opening up the EU would have and you didn't respond to it.
Immigration was a racial issue. That's becuase in the past 100 years it has always been framed in that way. Immigration was keeping undesirable brown people out of the country. That is how it was framed. The debate became intertwined with the idea a lost colonial past and a last gasp effort to keep a sense of ""Britishness"". That was how the policy was built.
The last Tory govt. decided that it would be a great election pledge to keep the immigration policy closely linked to the race issue too. Hence Norman Tebbit and his cricket test. The gave an amnesty to those already here and then sealed up all the laws as much as possible. They wanted to make sure that the sub-continent, the dark people of the earth would stay out, and routes for legal immigration shrunk. Unsuprisingly that lead to a rise in other methods being used by migrants.
You could have stopped this. You could have turned it around. You didn't. You accepted it. You played up to it. You and Mr Blunket decided that places like Sangatt should exist. You decided on detention centres for Asylum Seekers.
Why? Because you were terrified of that Daily Mail vote, You sacrificed any pretense of fairness, any attempt to diffuse the deep underlying racial prejudices of the immigration system and hoped it would no one would notice because you were so busy showing everybody how tough your jack boots could be.
You could have sat down with the Little Old Ladies of Oldham and explained to them that if they wanted to be treated by the NHS - South Asian doctors were going to be the way to go, because we had a shortage. You didn't. You let the right ride you on the agenda.
Worse of all, you decided that the Middle Class was your stomping ground. You didn't build the council houses people needed. The market would provide, you prayed. It didn't.
You didn't pull as many people out of poverty you could have done, and you let the resentment simmer and bubble. All the while being stoked by the right, and the press that back them. To cap it all you ignored them.
So when the two combined, when the demagogues came, and the ""I'm not racist but..."" started appearing, fueled by the failure of your government to address the real problems of the poor. When you were faced with debates on immigration where to the old underlying racist DNA asserted itself, you panicked, you didn't know what to do.
Too late you realised that maybe we should have a popper immigration system based on needs, skills and a clear route to citizenship. Too late, you began to put systems in place that should have been there in the first place.
But you couldn't kick the habbit. You couldn't stop yourself lunging once more for the easy floating voter hit available from the right wing press. You decided to ""get even tougher"" with immigrant.
You boasted like cartoon villains about how you were deporting Asylum seekers from the wars YOU started. You fought against reason and common sense to deprive heroic Gurkhas, who have sweated generations of blood for this country, of their right to live in here.
All this came from your original sin. The sin that you, Blair, Brown, Milliband Squared and the other ""new"" Labour people consummated.
In May 1997 your compass for a Social Democratic road map broke, and it took thirteen years for the you to sink."
I supported the Trade Union backed No2EU-Yes to Democracy, which rejected the neo-liberal, free market model of an intergrated European market. Big business and the rich quite rightly support a European free trade, pro-privatisation, anti-union free market. But lets not call this democracy and lets not pretend that European intergration is in the interest of working people.
"I'm afraid you'll find no friends here Ed.
The right-wing trolls will always hate you.
We lefties will always see you as a traitor and a bully."
I wish Ed would quit blaming economic migration for the erosion of support in his constituency.
Robi - hate the sin, not the sinner....... ever heard of the saying, "best of a bad bunch"?
"You can't fool us. The choice of the title of your piece alone was clearly a cynical attempt to try and appeal to the more vulnerable Gillian Duffy's of this world. Yet I grant people like her with enough insight to see people like you for the scum you are.
He really thought that anyone reading the Guardian would appreciate his ploy?
He should have tried the Daily Mail."
Amberstar - if the Tories spent approx £120,000 to get you out of a job, what would you blame? When all's said and done, Ed Balls is a reasonable man!!
You were wrong a lot of the time and arrogantly refuse to change tack. Now accept your well deserved fate and disappear.
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Balls!
"Despicable.
You should be ashamed."
"In government for 13 years but only now admit to the errors that people have been shouting from the f*cking rooftops for the duration. Sickening. Out of office but still Labour takes us for fools.
Iraq, then immigration, when's the admission of economic incompetence coming?"
"Seriously Mr Balls, do you honestly think anyone believes a damn word any Labour politician (other than perhaps Frank Field or Kate Hoey) says about most issues but especially immigration?
Really? The above is nothing more than self serving hypocritical balderdash of the highest or should that be lowest order."
Yes... your populist, cynical, anti-immigrant and frankly self-contradictory rant left us in no doubt as to your motivations.
"Although during the New Labour years you of course never actually tried to stand up to the anti EU hysteria whipped up by the right wing media.

And free movement of capital? How many companies are just relocating lock stock and barrel to eastern Europe?
With friends like you Europe doesn't need enemies. Tired cliches combined with all the original thought of an Alabama creationist."
"_AT_Mr Balls

Though it's just fine for capital to move freely, effectively moving labour from one place to another, so that we can have cheap foreign imports, often produced by workers on near slave wages. Essentially, we want the benefits of globalisation without the flipside - we can dish out the shit, but not take it.

So it's ok for us to take other peoples jobs, the good ones at that, but it's not ok for other people to take our jobs, even the shit ones? So we want one rule for us and another for everyone else. Bollocks.

So maybe, as their MP, you could campaign for stronger worker protection and a decent living minimum wage, and better housing provision."
"Ed your goverment nearly turned this country ito a stasi east german state with all your repressive laws
Dont try and wipe your hands of the mess you made of our civil liberties and human rights in this country
CCTV cameras/ goverment databases/council officals going through our bins/police behaviour at the G20 demo/illegal wars around the war which we took part in acting like some colonist power/ digital bill that crimised 14 million people who download music
Get lost ED we now have a coalition who with the great repeal act will try to undo and restore our human rights
Emma"
"It's strange you said none of these things when you were Brown's right-hand man.
In fact your position in this article seems to be the exact opposite of Gordon Brown's... despite him being your politcal ally.
In fact I would suggest that you are attempting to distance yourself from the political dead weight that is Brown.
No one will take you for anything more than a turncoat (at best)."
"ariksilverman (6 Jun 2010, 12:28AM);

There are many, many more English-speaking non-Brits than there are Brits who speak other European languages. Such a test would therefore make it much easier for other Europeans to settle in the UK than for UK citizens to settle in the Eurozone.
This doesn't bother me personally, but it's hardly a solution to what the article claims to be a problem."
"_AT_Mr Balls

Though it's just fine for capital to move freely, effectively moving labour from one place to another, so that we can have cheap foreign imports, often produced by workers on near slave wages. Essentially, we want the benefits of globalisation without the flipside - we can dish out the shit, but not take it.

So it's ok for us to take other peoples jobs, the good ones at that, but it's not ok for other people to take our jobs, even the shit ones? So we want one rule for us and another for everyone else. Bollocks.

So maybe, as their MP, you could campaign for stronger worker protection and a decent living minimum wage, and better housing provision."
24 carat pure comedy gold.
"'Phil Woolas .. great job...'
And this man wants to be the Leader of the Labour Party?"
Bugger, sorry for the double posting - server not found bollocks.
Oh please, anyone with half a brain (i.e. everyone outside the cabinet) always knew that they were political, not economic tests.
I have lost all respect for this man. He is a bigot, pure and simple.
"So, a world that's 'open and fair', and allows 'Free movement of goods and services' as part of this. Or a world that's open to further exploitation by Business, in other words.
But if you're a Romanian, Turkish or Bulgarian worker, you can f*cking whistle.
One rule for the ruling class, and another for the working class. This is neither 'open' nor 'fair'.
Working people in this country - 'native' and 'immigrant' alike - need strong unions to protect their pay and conditions, and to fight for improvements in them, as has always been the case. They need people in government who'll support them in this endeavor.
Shame on Ed Balls for trying to play workers off against each other."
Whether the UK government demands a decent standard of English to work in the UK has nothing at all to do with any other language nor any other country.
"It is perfectly possible to argue that Turkey has no place in Europe. As it is possible to argue that the free movement of labour will help Europe. But it is utter rubbish to argue you are a pro-European while arguing to limit the freedoms that are a key part of the vision.
When will Ed Balls and the rest of this pathetic crop of Labour leaders understand that tactics, positioning and politicking are no substitute for principles, strategy and vision???"
I don't agree with Balls.
"_AT_thfc123

Aren't us Brits renowned for our ""DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH"" approach when we're abroad - we haven't got a f***ing leg to stand on when it comes to ""you live here, you must speak the language""."
"Thank god these nutcases didn't get back in.
Turkey in the EU - aren't there enough race and culture issues already without going looking for more. And lets get the EU drawn into all the conflicts in the middle east as well.
And why pick on the Poles, they come here, fit in, speak English and work hard. Britain is a better place for them. You don't hear many stories about crime ridden Polish ghettos, or vast numbers of unemployed Poles or Polish radicalisation. Picking on white European immigrants is just a sneaky way for a left wing politician to disrespect immigrants without being called racist. And it has the advantage that the EU immigrants don't need to become UK citizens so they don't vote."
What a shame that not quite enough voters turned out in Morley & Outwood to turf this odious person out of office.
"""We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain""...
Yes and you were wrong about absolutely EVERYTHING else."
"nottydave
You just don't get it. No matter how ignorant English people abroad are it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the UK government insisting on a decent level of English to work in the UK. Whether English people abroad speak the native language or not is for the government of that country that those people happen to be in.
The two have NOTHING to do with one another."
Having worked with a number of poles & latvians on building sites ,one mistake seems to be made by many of the PC crwod on here & MPs.Eastern Europeans ,what does that mean?,it does not exist as a nation.The Poles dislike the Latvians,The Poles are by & large good workers & good to work with, but they can & do put the BNP to shame for racism towards black & asians & the Irish ,who have been priced out in a lot of areas hate them all.I know this does not dovetail with with the norm when it comes to racism but it is very lazy to pidgen hole this topic any other way.
"Thank goodness it was Eastern Europeans and not Turks.
They are beginning to scare me."
"If there are restrictions on migrants from Romania why is it listed on this housing application form I'm looking at along with Czech Reb, Estonia and twenty other countries.
Turkey isn't listed. I wonder why?
Who benefits from the European project? It's not helping to lift people out of poverty where I live. Indeed its exacerbating the poverty by forcing more people to compete for jobs and housing. And why should housing go to someone from Hungary whose family own acres of land, and here would be classed middle class?"
Turkish accession to the EU has nothing to do with culture or race, tomedinburgh. Whether you like the possibility or not, the idea is widely supported across Europe (except by Greece). Sadly, Britain is already involved in the middle east, as 27% of Israeli citizens either have or could claim a British Passport and the Balfour Declaration of 1917 formalised the British policy of creating a Jewish state. Anyway, recognising that Europe Union is primarily and economic impetus and that Turkey has been as associate member of the EU and its predecessors since 1963, and that it would provide the UK economy with an additional 74m customers, I think Ed Balls' position on the issue is not pivotal to his candidature for Labour Leadership (all leaders since Harold Wilson have favoured Turkish accession to EC, as have many Conservatives and ALL liberal party leaders.
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"Yet more posts about being on the ""right"" wrt political views.
Many people I speak with to claim to clearly understand what is meant by ""right"" and ""left"", though I rarely hear the same explanation as to exactly what each means, making the terms essentially useless in discourse.
If you think Balls is a racist, then say it. Don't tar those who believe in limited state involvement in individuals' lives and relatively free markets with being prejudiced nutters.
For the record, I don't believe Balls is prejudiced against foreigners or skin colour. I just think he's a git."
Ed talking Balls again. What a disgraceful and transparent gesture. Retire from politics forever you charlatan.
"Shameless populism!
To restrict immigration will not secure work for unemployed Brits. It's so stupid what you write, that I can't understand why anyone would let you be a minister, let alone thier leader. If you became the PM of UK, I'd give up on your country.
Is this the new, New Labour? God help us all.
Why don't you stay home with the kids? I am sure you'd make a fine unskilled labour at home and, if unpaid, even better."
"_AT_ BunnyFlumplekins
So you're basically saying 'don't diss the right'.
It's a nice neoliberal fasion that the right has managed to concot a media image of itself of everything good from sugar and spice to absolute freedom.
The truth, as we know, is a little farther away, however.
Libertarianism is just the fetish of a few right-wing crackpots... the true face of the right is rperesented by Conservative Philosophers like Edmund Burke and Conservative actions like guantanamo bay."
"Now Balls,
What was the average rate of inflation since May 1997?
Just for your edification inflation is the excess money in an economy over and above that required for goods and services.
You and your chums debased the currency at an alarming rate creating a slushy economy which showed nominal growth but deflated by the rate of monetary inflation showed a contraction in real growth for most of the 13 years you were in office, unlike the 1990s under Clarke.
However you all conspired to flood the UK with cheap labour to avoid the 1978/9 Winter of Discontent even allowing any immigrant, criminal or not, into this Country. The move of John Gieves from the Treasury to the Home Office coincided with opening of the flood of immigrants. The costs to the taxpayer and to Citizens of unrestricted immigration will be with us for years: crowded schools, hospitals, lack of housing, increased TB & HIV rates, masses of money spent on translators by Local Authorities, Courts etc....
I suggest that you personally transfer to the Exchquer from your own funds the cost of the mess you left and join the queue for Public Housing.
If you win then we will have a Tory Government for decades."
"Turkey is not, and has never been Europe and Turkish people are not europeans. These are plain facts.
Turkey's cultural differences with Europe are so wide that EU accession could never work, and would be a disaster for both Europe and Turkey."
"Wow - first Iraq was wrong (finally) and now this!
What a principled politician the people of Morley have had this last decade - one who only ""speaks his mind"" when there's no more advantage in kow-towing to the status quo.
Balls is not a politician. Politicians have balls."
"_AT_robi
By all means argue against those with political views you disagree with. My point is that the term ""right-wing"" is bandied about without a consistent understanding of what it actually means, just as understanding of 'class' is becoming increasingly variable as society evolves.
By all means argue against free markets, pay inequality, illegal detention, etc - I'm just suggesting that the use of certain terms is unhelpful in these discussions.
Though I hold my hands up and admit the use of the term ""git"" is not exactly my most lucid contribution."
Australian style migration restrictions should be applied to all people wishing to settle here. And then the problem would be solved.
"False. It is supported overwhelmingly by elite politicians and journalists, but overwhelmingly opposed by the actual people of Europe, particularly in France, Germany and Austria. It is significant that both Germany and Austria have large Turkish immigrant populations. In other words, they've already seen the Turks up close.

It wouldn't provide any more customers. The Turkish economy is already treated as if Turkey was in the EU. There are no trade barriers so Turkish accession to the EU wouldn't affect economic relations in any way."
"Wow, what a truly evil and calculating thing to say!
Balls is fully aware that in many parts of the country people are extremely concerned about non-European immigration, because it is permanent and it changes the communities permanently. Yet he diverts the argument to Eastern Europeans, who don`t ask for UK passports and usually don`t bring their families.
Britain`s problem is mass permanent immigration - it is not Polish gastarbeiters.
Sneaky and despicable. I`d like to apologise to Eastern Europeans for this. Horrible."
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"If the EU worked Britain's would be working there, but in fact the numbers doing so are very low, most emergration from the UK is still to English speaking countries (NZ, USA, Canada and Australia) and Spain which of course is retired people not working ones.
Without better teaching of languages which in the UK is terrible at, the freedom of working across Europe is meaningless, and works against Britain as Europeans come here in large numbers but we do not move and work there, its all one way.
The benefit of a large European market for goods, is enjoyed most by shareholders, whilst workers in the UK, have to complete for jobs with both UK people and those coming from Europe."
"Algebraist :
Immigration was a racial issue.
Racism?, maybe.
Space, certainly.
Some will argue that there is no shortage of the former, but the latter is limited."
"ColonelWingate

I could not agree more, and whilst politicians speak about immigration THIS year and new limits its the uncontrolled immigration of the last forty years that is the problem.
Once you give someone citizenship, you are by default giving all their offspring it too. Getting citizenship should take 20 years, you should be skilled, speak English and not claim benefit or commit crime. Being a first world nation, we have not reason to just give away citizenship, why would we choose to dilute our own rights? create more competition for our children for jobs?
Why have we taken so many people all from one part of the world? Who live in ghettos, living as they would where they come from, ignoring the locals, who have mostly moved away because they do not want to live in a foreign ghetto in their own country.
how does it benefit us?
Its utterly ridiculous."
Wh ocares who wins the leadership of Zanu-Labour, provided they remain out of office for at least a generation, until the evil theives of civil liberties ar all too long in the tooth to remain in Parliament. Then, hopefully, their successors will be more freedom-loving.
"Or lastly as I wrote on another thread.
There is nothing wrong with liking your country and its way of life, and not wishing to see it destroyed by immigration and 'multiculturalism'"
"you're probably right about where the support comes from gkelly. I'd be surprised if most European citizens supported it. I don't know.
Full accession would certainly improve free movement of goods and services for UK businesses into Turkey, thereby improving revenue for British businesses. I wasn't trying to justify or deny Turkey's full membership of EU, but merely counter the general belief that Ed Balls was not in tune with mainline concerns by mentioning it in his article."
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"So this is it is it, these are the thoughts and analysis that will make you leader of the opposition and then in just under five years, the Prime Minister?
I think not, I think you have just displayed you intellectual shallowness and lack of moral foundations.
I hope, indeed offer up an Atheists prayer, that you do become leader of the Labour Party, it deserves your thoughtful leadership and farsighted guidance."
"The free access to the UK jobs market for Eastern Europeans was merely a cynical Thatcherite ploy to avoid having to provide money to train UK residents for skilled and semi-skilled jobs.
Not the mention the great advantage of a willing workforce from an economically backward area which would actually consider the minimum wage as good money and be an obedient and compliant workforce.
Why then is Balls so interested in the accession of Turkey into the EU except as another great well of super cheap sweatshop fodder?
Balls gives no other reason , for there is no advantage to Britain on Turkey's EU membership except their workforce.
The Blair/Brown regime betrayed the working classes, preferring to import workers abroad rather than spend money on training and childcare.
Mr Balls was a senior member of the Greek chorus urging them on.
Show him the door."
"_AT_balls
As usual obfuscating spin and garbage.
However, if you were wrong, you are responsible............if you are responsible then you should be accountable.......if you are accountable your incompetence disqualifies you from any further position in public life.
By accident or design - and I think it was by design - your policies have had a massively adverse effect on British society - time for you to toddle off into obscurity."
you've just lost my vote
This article gives demagoguery a bad name.
you've just lost my vote
"_AT_bradgate

You clearly have no idea what a fact is."
Who elected you to that job?
So populist it would make Hugo Chavez and Vice Cable blush.
"..........
His geography is good."
Well, blimey, Griffin is writing under a pseudonym.
"tinlaurelledandhardy

Exactly."
"Solidarity with my brother and sister workers from Europe!
Labour doesn't need Balls, it needs Brains."
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"_AT_annedemontmorency

Geographically, Europe has never had any agreed boundaries. If you want to say Europe is by definition not Muslim, go ahead - that's one opinion, but let's not pretend it is some kind of fact."
Orkney ,having been invited to a cracking piss up at the Poles house off our site i can only agree ,ref Polish girls
"But you forgot to get them to clean up their act enough to get their accounts signed off didnt you ed. oops.
'at the heart of europe'
yeah. right."
"_AT_annedemontmorency
you are so funny. europe is a socio-political construct. it doesnt exist. its whatever you want it to be.
turkey has far more in common with austria-hungary and germany than we do with greece (apart from phil the greek of course).
sorry, its not simple. but i tried to make it simple for you."
"_AT_Danut

In my sad experience of once working for a 'Labour' local authority that is the majority of them.
But they wouldn't come out and admit ot of course."
"Just an observation: it appears, at least on the surface, that the countries that have the highest debt to gdp ratios are the ones in the most economic trouble and the ones with the least are doing the best. At least, that's the way it looks at a glance.
I wonder if those countries in financial difficulty, had they spent less money, be less in debt? If overspending got one into trouble, how can doing the same produce the opposite result? The government is not some sacred cow. It's not blasphemy or mean spirited to curb the appetite of the government.
Look at it this way. You are taxed for, among other things, what you produce, what you expend, and anything else they can think of. Every time they collect a tax from you, that is a direct deduction of your options in life. Have you ever heard a bureaucrat say something along the lines of, ""We can't impose a tax increase, how are the Stevensons going to pay for Mary Lou's college expenses?"" Have you ever heard a politician address the reality of taxation, ""you earned it, now we're going to take whatever we want and you'd be best advised to give it up and keep your mouth shut about it.""
There is no such thing as public spending. All spending is private spending. Either the individual who earned the money, spends it. Or, the individual who earned the money has it strongarmed off of him by the government, and then the government spends the the individual's money for him. In either case, the taxable surplus was created by the skill, talent, and dedication of the earner. The government has no inherent right to anything."
Well, the man while in power talked his talk for the power' sake and now he does that for the sake of getting it back. There is very specific word for that but I don't want to get moderated :)
"Labour obviously needs some time out of power if Ed Balls, shadow children and education secretary, is writing this kind of guff as he competes for the party leadership.
Blair's labour government worked real hard to make London into a plush home for rich foreigners who did more damage to Britain and its economy than a few hard working Eastern Europeans."
"As an ex-Labour Party member, I didn't believe what Nu Labour said when in power and I don't believe any of them now. They're bad history as far as I'm concerned.
Viva el coalition!"
"If ever there was a case of shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted -- or rather in this case the stable had got a tad overcrowded.
All the open door policy did was crowd out the labor market and drive wage rates downwards. But that's basic economics, anyone could have told you that increasing the supply with demand flat will drive down the price. Good for short term profit, especially as the imported labor comes with no cost to the people using those skills and they can conveniently pass the cost of the people they're displacing onto the taxpayer."
"Britain is a very exposed country with great deal of protection for people in duly harsh circumstances. These mechanisms were never designed for free inflow of well, let's not be two faced, poor people from countries where their lives are of no or little consequence.
The illusion is that the trouble is the lack of sufficient funding.
This illusion is really hard to break through but it is nevertheless and illusion. And it may not be a healthy one to follow on with anything like policy making."
"You and Labour will not be part of the decision making process, so why should we care what you think?

Who too?

What exactly does this mean? You don't say/

So what you are saying is that your actions have disadvantaged one of the poorest and economically weakest sections of society.
So what you are not saying is that your refusal to set interim limits, (as many other European Counties did,) made the situation worse.
All you are doing is reinforcing the point that you are a stupid inept politician and not fit to represent anyone, much less lead a major british political party.
Thanks for clearing that up."
"Hmm interesting its east european migrants which are viewed as the problem.
So I guess the obvious signs of islamification should be ignored then?"
"if they come here to WORK IE a doctor,dentist.brickie then i dont see the problem BUT there should be an agreement box on there application for a visa/uk passport that says they must abide by our customs and traditions
all these imigrants who dont work sponge off the state then throw a hissy fit for changes in uk law to benefit there own Beliefs and customs should be shown the door lie-bour failed to stem the problem lets hop the new boys can"
"Ed Balls; What a racist title, and no information in your poorly written article to back up it's title. How did you get to where you are? Not by intelligence that's for sure. If you were to do your statistics, you would find an overwhelming number of ""British"" people are taxing the system here in this country. Not any ""Eastern Europeans"" which are not only highly skilled but hard working .
GJP46"
"eastlands
so true
One, it is central europe and there is more diversity here than in western Europe.
Populist stuff where a leading politician brackets the whole region as homogenous"
"Presumably most of those calling Ed Balls a racist and a bigot also believe Labour leadership candidates should listen to the members/voters more? I assume by ""listening"" they mean only to opinions they themselves agree with and returning to real socialism, whatever that is.
There's a lot of concern about immigration out there - discussing extending the restriction on Romain and Bulgaria is hardly the same as advocating repatriation for non-whites."
"Oh yeah, and I should also say that the title of your article is not only a lie but the Guardian, is irresponsible for allowing this article to be uploaded as it only helps to stir the racist element in this society...........or maybe that's what you really wanted.
GJP46"
Mr Balls, you are wrong about restricting movement of workers in the EU. Low wages are a fall out from globalisation and capital's desire to seek the cheapest worker. The UK has plenty of unscrupulous managers who do not give a toss about 'British workers': the answer? Up the minimum wage until it no longer becomes possible to trade workers. In any event, who will do the jobs the EU migrants did/still do? Remembering Evan Davies' programme for the BBC, 'The day the immigrants left' threw up a vivid picture of a workshy British workforce unwilling to do the jobs the immigrants were doing. Reform labour and employment laws, raise the minimum wage and allow free movement of labour. Don't play the BNP's game for them. And while you're at it, get building some houses and stop people profiting from buy to let. Labour should have tackled all these things years ago but didn't have the intellect or courage to tackle them.
You didn't have to restrict immigration from the EU - all you had to do was set the minimum wage for all workers at a living level, and legislate improvements in the terms of employment for all workers (other EU countries seem to manage it), and then employers wouldn't have been falling over themselves to employ Lithuanians living in garden sheds and working on temporary contracts which get renewed again and again, year after year.
"""A load of balls"" still what would one expect.
Nudelabour brought in the minimum wage but then failed to enforce it. and in any case set it very low. Nudelabour failed to push people back into work and with the min wage so low - why would they go?
One example: drive out of Leominister _AT_ 0600hrs any morning and watch the long lines of east euros trudging to their fruit and veggie picking jobs so Joe average can have cheap fruit and veggies (30% of which he wastes - well they are cheap so why worry?).
There is a systemic failure here and Balls is one of the guys responsible. Unfit to clean the toilets in my view - let alone a political party - throw him out of labour - let him form his own party - he is not and never has been a socliaist."
"'We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain'
But Ed, you were there when it was all discussed, agreed and implemented. And if you were there again in future, it would carry on again. We all know that it is what the Left want, why, the Labour peer Lord Giddens indicated that it must 'go on' (see 'Over to You, Gordon', published only 3 years ago). In fact the 'melting pot' philosophy has been and remains one of the Left's central tenets: that true internationalism can only be achieved by breaking down the 'barriers' of race and culture upon which nation states exist.
So please no more hand-wringing over what what a full-blown design feature of Labour's 13 years in office. Why do you not honestly state your intention, which has always been to remove the racial basis of the UK, and Englishness in particular. Do you not wish to move towards one of the Left's implicit ideals (that still can be heard in any left-leaning student debate), namely 'towards one world government?'
But let me tell you, a world without such racial and cultural differences would be a poorer place."
The Poles are actually more workshy than the British. Unemployment is far higher in Poland than Britain, and it's not like there isn't the work there. There are Ukrainians and Belarussians doing the jobs that the Poles don't want to take.
Persoanlly I'd have liked to have seen more Polish people come to the UK, and I'm sorry that some of them are going back. The UK is better off with them than without them. It is other groups we need to be careful about. The ones who burn the flag and get aggressive and hate the country.
"So its simple then, Ed. The UK will continue to (try to) keep wages and costs higher than eastern europe and at the same time remain competitive.
That way you've got a lingering recession until things get so bad that english workers are actually emigrating to work in Poland - it should take about 12 to 15 years at the most.
Then all the immigrants you're worried about will be gone and you'll have no-one to scapegoat. Then your touchy-feely enoch powell fellow travellers in Nu Labour might need to come up with some real economic policy - like creating sustainable and competitive industry. Except Labour doesn't do sustainable or competitive industry. If Labour can't moan against the bosses, the bankers, the toffs, the immigrants, the tories, the liberals, or anyone else who doesn't carry a union card, then it's got nothing to say."
There -- fixed that for you.
"I am sorry Ed but you can't have the first two (you forgot free movement of capital) without the last, to do otherwise is to carve up the market for the benefit of business and allow business to play different countries off against each other. This is precisely why the EU was set up with the four basic freedoms in the first place.
The question is whether the EU should have been expanded into the former Eastern block in the first place. My opinion has always been no, and I think I have been proved right by events. By all means the Eastern block should have been given preferential trading status with the EU along with help and assistance to allow them to get their economies into shape before joining the EU, but to let them in while they were still economically very weak and unable to hold their own was folly of the first order.
The problem with the EU is not the EU, but the short-sighted, nationalistic, doing-the-best-for-my-country (and the vested interests within it) Member States of the EU, of which the UK is probably one of the most blatant and notorious example.
The point of the EU is that the nations of Europe work together for the common benefit of all, not be in it for what you can screw out of it, but then since 'be in it for what you can screw out of it' has been the whole 'Anglo Saxon' modus operandi of the UK economy at all levels for the past thirty years it hardly surprising they don't understand anything else, consequently the role and purpose of EU is actually a complete mystery to the majority of UK politicians (and population for that matter).
The EU is a modern 'tragedy of the commons'.
The question for me is not whether or not we decide to stay in the EU but rather how long the EU is going to put up with its Chavvy neighbour."
"How long has this man been out of office??
His hypocrisy would be absolutely breathtaking if one didn't undrstand that personal ambition is his single goal - whatever the cost to everybody else!"
As Clement Attlee is reputed to have said: A bit late isn't it?
"Amazing that you can be in power for more than a decade and only realise that after you're out of power.

Wrong, Balls, they should be pushing to protect the pay, terms and conditions of all workers. Protecting the pay, terms and conditions only of British workers will make the low-pay, unprotected workers of Poland and the Baltic states more attractive for rapacious employers.
But that was all part of the plan, wasn't it?"
Perhaps the eastern Europeans can let us move to their countries... Yeah like theyd let us move in on their turf!
They let me move there.
"Snapshackle:

They'll put up with us for as long as we're paying a huge part of their bloated budget. You just know they're looking for more money from us by getting rid of our rebate as well. They won't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
Anyway, this is too little too late. It's no good saying your wrong now. I won't forget the damage the labour party has done to this country and I'll certainly never forgive it. I'm not the only one either."
"A couple of other things I forgot. This sentence:

is a gross over-estimation of how important Britain is on the world stage. Also, the idea of allowing Turkey into the EU is cretinous."
"So it's true then, Ed.
They are taking our jobs and driving down wages.
Why didn't you say this before?"
"13 years 1 month too late.
And I say that as the husband of an immigrant from outside the EU. We had to go through almost a year of marriage-threatening hell just to get her into the country, despite her having a job offer here, speaking English, and my being able to support her financially. All in the name of ensuring the 'wrong' sort didn't get in.
Meanwhile several million Europeans who didn't have jobs, didn't necessarily speak English, and didn't have any money were able to get in with barely a glance at their passport at the gate."
"TheGreatCucumber
6 Jun 2010, 8:20AM

Er, except our contribution is not that important, and if we leave so do any costs associated with us.

1. Where did I say I was a Labour supporter?
2. Labour has done no more than continue Tory policies, so it is the fault of the ideology, not the party since both administrations pursued essentially then same agenda."
No you weren't - but you were wrong not to defend immigration properly. Same old New Labour telling the people what you think they want to hear. You don't care where you get your support from do you? Now is the time to stop pandering to the right wing, zenophobic, and ignorant - it lost you the last election and it will lose you the next.
"Snapshackle:

1. That was aimed at what Ed Balls said. Sorry, should have clarified that.
2. I'm no fan of the Tories either."
PeakoilPete - they let my sister move there and she doesn't want to come back.
"zavaell:
'In any event, who will do the jobs the EU migrants did/still do?'
Me, for one. Ready, willing and able.
Nine months of applications for cleaning, catering, retail, office and care work have resulted in about 2 interviews.
Ready to drop the voluntary job and paper round at a moment's notice."
"qwertboi - The last Greek prime minister - Costas Karamanlis openly supported Turkish accession to the EU.
Greece has birthrate problems and is hardly dynamic - there is a very different picture on the other side of the Aegean. Culturally the Greeks and Turks are a lot closer than the Greeks like to pretend.
And what's this nonsense about IT being highly dependent on immigrants?
The scandal was that this myth was around even before 2000 - when South Africans were freely allowed to work in IT in the UK, while Brits could not get a work permit in SA to do anything.
The job market in IT has collapsed due to outsourcing to Asia, and the myth of ""shortages"" is put about my IT employers' asociations and lobbyists to ensure a plentiful supply of cheap IT labour. UK programmers were affected adversely by the UK IT ""open door"" to the world policy just as much as brickies were affected by EU immigration. UK IT staff are not unionised, have no lobby and still suffer due to the propagation of the ""shortage"" myth by employers. (Same in Germany)
Ageism and overmuch competition in my IT speciality - much of it due to Agency sponsored non-EU immigrants, caused me to leave the UK and work in Germany.
The author points out that that restrictions on the influx of EU unskilled labour will soon be lifted in France and Germany. That will have a huge effect on the UK in that both countries are far more attractive for Eastern European EU immigrants workers. There are Germans who are predicting major changes in Berlin (as one example) where Polish (etc.) immigration will be sorely needed due to the increasing dearth of young people. The Polish border is only 50 miles from Berlin.
Also Germany is on the verge of having labour shortages due to the aging population/declining birthrate (No. 3 in the declining population ranking) - already unemployment is at its lowest for years and there is an upcoming crisis in the medical/care sector due to staff shortages.
And what is this implied success of the UK economy in coming quickly out of recession? France and Germany were far earlier."
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We should not be confusing the need to improve the rights of the low paid in this country with allowing others to come and live in the UK. The minimum wage and rights for agency and contract workers is the way to deal with this.
"Ed,
I have always thought you to be an odious little man - and this article just adds weight to my opinion of you.
What a cheap and nasty tactic you have adopted to score anti-immigration points by berating Polish immigrants who are generally hard-working, law-abiding and work hard to integrate.
What a low, underhand way to appear 'hard' in immigration but avoiding any criticism of any non-white group - and thus trying to avoid being called a racist.
You really are a pathetic man.
No mention at all of the problems caused by the Islamist wave of immigration in the UK - none at all. Islamic immigrants do not integrate, do not respect the culture of the UK and do not participate at a high level in the economy.
Yet not a mention from you.
Disgusting. I think the cheaper-than-cheap, turn-coat, unprincipled 'leadership' campaign you are running is showing you up in an even poorer light than before - and believe me, that would have taken some doing."
">>We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain
Bit late now Ed.
Everyone told you what would happen and as with everything else you 'ballsed up' you wouldn't listen even to your expert advisers on health.
""Nanny Knows best"" was how New Labour ruled. Nanny most certainly didn't."
"If you had admitted theses errors while in power and able to influence matters you may have won some respect but to wait till its too late and wring your hands from the sideline is pathetic.
You will never be Labor leader.
You will never be PM."
"Ed is lying of course. Basically if do something immoral for 10 years, then I think it is right. That the Labour party allowed unfettered immigration for 13 tells me the believe that is right.
How often have you had met someone who constantly does the wrong thing but assures each time that they have learned their lesson? You know they haven't because deep down they believe that the wrong thing is the right thing.
Next Labour government would equal more unlimited immigration as Labour understands this is in their long term self interest.
By the way - those of you who call immigration controls racist are beyond contempt. You are the racists and in particular you have a racist world view which sees people from poorer countries as tools to achieve your policy goals.
I have always thought it laughable that a so called 'anti capitalist' left winger is so committed to allowing people to come and work here for burger king."
"_AT_article

I can assure you there are plenty of folk born and bred in the country who can fill these post in the NHS and IT industries. The problem is that they were not allowed into these industries because they were undercut by immigrants. It is an insult to the intelligence of any normal person to think otherwise."
"Ahh the Right-wing reflex from the Labour ministers.
Yawn"
You were neoliberal stooges, the book Broonland carves you up. Now you think you are throwing a bone to the gormless proles over immigration. If you don't do better than this you'll never be back. How about giving some thought about how the markets are ruling us and how to counteract it. Of course that might deviate from neo-classical endogenous growth theory. Jesus is this all we've got. ?
I can't stand these fools who think that because an immigrant is White, he won't cause any problem.
"OMG - YES - he has got it - at last!
Take care of the people already here and STOP letting more and more and more in.
But is he just saying it to get what he wants - after all the Labour party wanted to rub the noses of the middle classes in multiculturalism - has that changed?"
Thank you for a clear and well-written article, Mr Balls. I understand your lines of argument, but can't bring myself to agree with them.As the decendent of 'economic migrants' during the attempted genocide of the Irish 'famine', I think that Britain should be Great enough to have a place for those willing to work for their living and their family's betterment.
"Balls clearly has never asked himself why communities, like the one he 'represents', are ""ill prepared to deal with globalisation"".
First off, no one ever told them about globalisation, it descended on them from on high without a by-your-leave, and they were expected to get on with it.
Second, if we have to have globalisation, we need an education system that's geared to turning out a highly skilled workforce able to compete with the Far East.
No sign of that, is there, Ed?
Instead we've had high unemployment amongst young people since before eternal boom turned to old fashioned bust.
Could that be anything to do with micro-managing education from Whitehall, Ed?
One further point, Ed.
You can't have the bits of globalisation you like - cheapo clothes from the Far East, iPads, etc - without the bits you don't like: a global labour market, widening inequality, and reduced welfare spending.
Get real, matey."
Obviously mass immigration on this scale was wrong. It was wrong because there was no effort whatsoever to expand an already overstretched infrastructure to cope with it. It's a very simple equation. Why couldn't you see that ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
"Big business wanted cheap labour, the government of the day, of which Mr Balls was a significant figure, delivered what big business wanted - as usual.
I don't believe that this particular leopard can change his shorts."
Isn't it amazing how an electoral "slap upside the head" can knock some sense into it. That's what happened isn't it, Ed? You wouldn't just be saying whatever you think is necessary to get all those C2 voters back, would you?
"p.s.
...new points system, with strong controls on unskilled migration, alongside new citizenship requirements.
Seems quite fascistic to me to differentiate in this way. What right have you got to 'brain drain' these countries so you're own country is economically advantaged? This policy is a kind of distant cousin to ethnic cleansing."
'[H]ard-headed'; 'big choices'; 'stark differences'; 'challenge'; 'doomed'; 'staggered'; 'do not believe for a moment'; 'strong controls'; 'difficult times'; 'hard-headed'; History has proved'; 'fight tooth and nail'; 'a powerful driver'; 'wake up'; 'challenge'; 'direct impact'; 'the heart of'; 'rebuild trust'; 'no doubt that'; 'true that'; 'a great job'; 'hard-headed'; 'seal the borders'; 'innovation'; 'another matter entirely'; 'the reality of'; 'it is important we are honest about what we got wrong'; 'not good enough'.
"This simply means they're white, and acceptable.

This refers to those who are not white, and aren't, but kepler doesn't have the balls to say it. It's the highest recommended comment so far, it's racist to the core, and I'm sure a number of BNP supporters are amongst those that approve. There you go, Ed, there's your vote bank."
"_AT_PaulLambert (6 Jun 2010, 1:13AM)

My sentiments exactly."
"Below is a statement from the Optimum Population Trust published in October 2009:
The figures, published by the Office for National Statistics, show the UK population growing by over four million to 65.6 million by 2018, passing 70 million two decades from now (2029) and reaching nearly 86 million by the end of the projection period – 2083 – when growth will still be running at over a quarter of a million a year. The ONS says just over two-thirds of the projected increase over the next quarter century is either directly or indirectly due to migration. Commenting on the projections, Roger Martin, chair of OPT, said: “These figures are very worrying and demonstrate that, whatever some government ministers say about not letting the UK’s population rise beyond 70 million, the reality is very different. In that sense Britain’s population increase is out of control and we are on course for a high-density, low-quality future where overcrowding and congestion are the norm and resource shortages, particularly of vital commodities like water and energy, are ever more pressing. Every addition to the population pushes this country further from sustainability and nearer to a position of extreme environmental precariousness.
It’s no use shouting “racist” whenever someone suggests that immigration should be restricted. It is very childish and extremely boring, and if you believe it then you must also think that David Attenborough and Jonathon Porritt, both patrons of the OPT, are racist too. The UK is the most densely populated country in Europe and the second most densely populated country in the world. If reliant solely on its own resources, it could sustain a population of only 20 million people. It is clearly absurd to continue to allow current levels of immigration, especially when we have structural unemployment of 4 million plus and the incomes of the poorest pushed down even further by immigrants competing for jobs."
"Well - is it not true that once you end the transitional controls then free movement is inevitable.
However there are still many things that Labour could have done in order to lessen the impact of immigration from the new EU states:
1. Coordinate with other major EU economies (France, Germany, Spain etc.) to end transitional controls at the same time so that impact would be spread over a great area.
2. Reduce or better control other routes of immigration e.g. student visas in response to the end of transitional controls on new EU controls.
3. Reduce tax on the lower wage salaries thus encourage more people off benefits to work."
"Too late, Ed. How you expect anyone to believe a word you say any more is beyond my grasp.
However, I am a huge supporter of your campaign to lead the Labour Party. Into the desert for generations.
Go, Ed, Go!!!!!"
Is he ? Surely this ministry has been abolished ?
Finally, if you'd have admitted these massive mistakes to the nation while in government you'd have had to resign. However, you're now in opposition, but you seem to think you should be able to stand as leader. Surely some contradiction here. In fact you're a FAILED POLITICIAN who's done serious damage to the country and therefore the honourable thing to do would be to LEAVE POLITICS! You're not allowed to plead forgiveness or ignorance, the country needs leaders who know what they are doing, you've proved you don't.
"Another tired article from a tired party that hasn't got the guts to admit that the reason they were ejected was the economy and the utter mess they made of it.
Well I'm anti-Euro, but I have no doubt that if we had entered, our European partners would have run our economy better than you did, increasing public expenditure by 50% to what effect? More overpaid quangocrat and housing association mates of yours? I mean how can a Housing Association chief earn nearly 400k pa? Under Brown-Balls he can.
And just why did we stay out of the Euro? Economic reasons, Ideological reasons? Or am I alone in thinking that it was just that Brown couldn't countenance giving up power so hard obtained?
Then you go on to apologise for EU immigration, whereas you know full well that Polish plumbers is a small problem relative to immigration from Pakistan, Bangladesh Nigeria etc.
.
I shall be delighted if by mistake Labour selects you to be its leader, as the reminder of Brown will be enough to ensure that your kind of self-interested house-flipping ""socialism"" is kept out of power for ever.
You are a disgrace to what was once a great party with an ideological core and a just cause."
"ArikSilvermen

To settle in a foreign country, NO to a proficiency test.
But to work there, YES.
This is in fact what happens in many countries - for decent working-class jobs.
For instance, you wouldn't get a job as a postal worker, ambulance driver, dustman - or any council state sector worker - (and loads of other jobs) without first passing a written and difficult exam in both Spanish and Catalan.
Even someone from Madrid wouldn't be able to pass the Catalan exam without months or even years of study.
That's how other countries protect their local workforce (what a fantastic Derby winner, by the way!)
But over here we make allowances."
"Correction to previous post:
""You wouldn't get a decent working-class job IN BARCELONA as..."""
"Really?
Britain's taxpayers are forking out more than £21million a year in child benefit for youngsters living in Poland, official figures reveal."
Ed Balls is simply a New Labour hypocrite. Quite why the media give this individual who lacks intelligence or indeed integrity is a mystery. I live in his constituency and would be delighted if he found the time to dealing with correspondence instead of indilging in self-promotion.
"So, Ed, whilat you are displaying your penitence, what are your thoughts on this statement by the PM?

Hint. ""So what"" is NOT the answer."
Mr Balls, as a member of the Labour Party, let me say you are very wrong about this and I hope the party rejects this counter-productive urge to blame our travails on immigration. I'll vote for whichever candidate follows the most liberal line on immigration.
"_AT_mannin 6 Jun 2010, 9:44AM

Quite so. Sadly they didn't manage to abolish Balls at the same time.
By the way, kids, do you know which two MPs came up with the house flipping scam which has so enriched Mr. & Mrs. Balls?
Step forward, Gordon Brown and Ed Balls. Men of the people to their very bone marrow."
"So tell me Balls why it is that my mate's son, an IT graduate from 2008 cannot find any suitable employment and is now unemployed and on anti-depressants?
You tell me, and I'll tell him"
"How depressing, this is soulsearching by the souless.
Like a one clubbed golfer, all the triangulators can do is that one thing. Over and over again. Bravely following from the front.
Hope they never get close to power again."
"If the jobs were here why wern't they filled with our fit, hard working men and women? Was it that the benfits on offer outshone working for a living.
What of illegal immigrants. As their title implies, they are ILLEGAL. So why are so many thousands still here and who is paying for their keep, whilst, due to costs, denying the life saving cancer drugs tor the sick or real care for the elderly.
None of these issues you faced in office and fudge yet again now. You have chosen instead the easy option of saying you were wrong over Eastern European immigration. It's the peoples from the rest of the world, who are not part of the EU that we are concerned about."
"WeAreTheWorld
6 Jun 2010, 1:34AM
Me too. And that other New Labour pumpkin head Blair has been championing their admission to the EU for two decades. If nothing else, the Greeks will see that never happens."
Is it because our IT school and higher education is crap and Indian computer science education is better ? I don't know; just asking. My daughter studied IT at secondary school for 5 years and learned only to make a sandwich menu on a Word document and to price it on a simple spreadsheet. I have seen the IT they do in Chinese secondary schools and believe me it's not like that. It's programming and code.
"there is no problem with eastern Europeans, the more the merrier. We should be grateful they wanted to come here at all, to work in demeaning jobs for low wages. Have you ever been to East Europe, Balls? Poland for one is much much nicer than Britain. But we had jobs that needed filling and they came. They didn't take the jobs from the British, they took jobs that were not being filled.
The real problem of immigration is in the vast ethnic ghettos of insularity and despair. I should know I live in one - Hackney - where every few days it seems a black kid is shot and the ""community"" shrugs it off."
"Aren't they a laugh these Labour folks? Here's Ed' fellow contestant, Diane Abbott

Some 92 years AFTER the Tories, who elected an Asian as the MP for Bethnal Green North East in 1895.
We're still, of course, waiting for a female Labour leader, never mind Prime Minister.
No, not you, Harriet. Fegedabahtit."
"mannin _AT_ 6 Jun 2010, 10:06AM

Possibly for young adults coming out of New Labours dumbed down degrees but these Indian and Chinese students are competing with older individuals with

. Maybe it might have less to do with the knowledge of these immigrants and more to do with hope cheap they cost to employ?"
"mannin _AT_ 6 Jun 2010, 10:06AM

Possibly for young adults coming out of New Labours dumbed down degrees but these Indian and Chinese students are competing with older individuals with years of experience. Maybe it might have less to do with the knowledge of these immigrants and more to do with hope cheap they cost to employ?"
More pathetic grovelling why are you not on remand awaiting trial for treason ?
"mannin
6 Jun 2010, 10:06AM


As an IT Consultant and Expert working for a large Financial Firm, I can confirm that large powerful financial firms have spun the need for Foreign IT Staff just because it is cheaper. I see a large Indian IT staff when a few years back that would not have been the case. Or course stupid Politicians believe them despite the fact it leaves British IT graduates without a route into the profession. It is very very sad......
These guys are not doing anything that a British Graduate or trained and experienced guy could not do.
PS. There is a difference between High School IT and the IT professionals by the way...."
Sorry, Ed. Anyone who has screwed up the country's demographics to the extent that you, by your own woffle-smothered admission, have done - never mind gravely messing up its education system - is not fit to be in government, let alone leader of a (once) major party.
"ChrisBaldwin

Some 80% of EE migrants work for minimum wage. They were brought in specifically to keep wages down - as Sir Digby Jones put it a few years ago ""immigrants are doing the work for less"" - later of course he became a Minister in the ""Labour"" gov't. Of course during the years 2004-2007 we had a lot of spurious economic growth based on financial bullshxt which Broon was pleased to characterise as ""no more boom and bust""(wonder how he's doing in his secure unit in Fife btw).
Now of course we face a total crisis of employment - and of housing; the employment situation is of course bound to deteriorate even further with savage public spending cuts an inevitability - the IFS calculated that on the basis of Broon-Darling's dubious figures there would be 25% cuts in non-ring-fenced dept's.
All this the Duffy's and the NEET's need like a hole in the head. They are competing with much better qualified people from abroad very largely for minimum wage jobs where minimal or zero qualifications are required; and in the context of employment falling off a cliff.
When the Labour Party was the Labour Party Mrs Duffy was a priority concern; not a ""bigot"" to be sheered at behind her back.
Having said that of course Balls' article is an odious piece of expediency"
"No, they are entirely completely tied together. Do you think the USA would have grown to be the biggest economy on the planet if people from Illinois were banned from moving to California?
What a moron. I thought Balls was supposed to be an expert on economic matters.

SO it's OK for us to take highly paid jobs off Europeans, but not for them to come here to pick potatoes for the minimum wage? I think you are running for the leadership of the wrong party. Your concern for wages in the poorer parts of Europe is disingenuous - it is these genuinely poor people who benefit the most from being able to travel to find work, but they wont be voting for the new leader of the labour party, so f*** 'em.

So you think that people in countries who have run their finances competently should be forced to bale out those who haven't? I can see why you would believe this, but it is balls."
I am dismayed by the conflation of racism (yet again) and immigration. Are there problems with immigration? Perhaps but asking the question does not make you racist or right wing. Does the article not acknowledge the unease that an increasing number of people have about immigration? I also feel that we need clear data to answer questions around immigration. We also need to depart from the old dialectic about immigration and party politics. I applaud any attempt to engender discussion in this area.
Thus begins Labour's desperate attempt to win back the British workers it betrayed over the past 13 years and the British sovereignty it gifted to the New European Empire; the most polite response must be go away Balls and the rest of your dishonourable colleagues. We want our country back.
"nottydave seems to have it right.
The problem is not immigrants but that workers are not sufficiently protected against wage undercutting. If you're a Pole, prepared to live in a rented room in squalid accommodation with five other Poles, then you can afford to work for less (and send money home or save) than the family man or woman who has to keep up a more expensive household. If employment law ensured that all work was capable of providing a living wage for people committed to raising a family in Britain, then British and Polish workers would be able to compete fairly. That would be the left-wing answer to the problem.
Another problem is how to respond to the likelihood of people coming from countries who are unlikely to be able to find work in Britain and who are not (as is the case with the Poles) eligible for welfare but for whom being dirt poor in Britain might be preferable to be being dirt poor in Romania or Bulgaria. A little noticed problem are those Poles etc holed-up in squats drinking or snorting or injecting themselves to an early grave, who reject charitable attempts to get them home and over whom the state has no responsibility except in criminal justice terms."
Yes I know. But should bright 16 years olds studying IT at secondary school still be doing cafe/sandwich menus on Word ? Is is good preparation for computer science advanced and degree level studies ? Shouldn't code and computer languages and programming be taught much much earlier, as in China, Thailand, India ? Just asking.
"Just to add:
It is also amazing how people's logic on this, especially on the Left, becomes so twisted. Many do not realise that the NHS importing Doctors and Nurses from developing nations may be denying these countries of valuable health care resources. If I bothered to analyse COINs I would no doubt find some white-European health Care consultants (i.e. Doctors and Nurses rebranded as Consultants) working in India, South Africa, and other developing countries on super high Consultancy packages (flights, hotels, food and wages).
So we may be in the position that we import Doctors and Nurses from them on the cheaper and then we pay in the Foriegn Aid budget for expenses health care consultants to assist them in health care!!!!!
But I suppose if I do not believe 100% all and any immigration is good then I must be a racist....
Stanford - proud to be a racist."
"TomHarrison

Rubbish. They were not ""brought in"" - they chose to come here because they could make a better living. That is what intelligent people do. Rather than sitting on their arses and demanding the government give them money, which appears to be the Labour way."
"I'm glad I'd already decided not to vote for Ed Balls in the leadership election (not that it was an especially hard decision). This facile, cretinous, half witted argument, that migrant workers are to blame for employers slashing wages and terms and conditions, sums up much of what is wrong with Balls.
Employers are to blame for cutting wages and terms and conditions Ed, not workers. Employers don't do it because they have to; like dogs licking their own privates, they do it because they can. Faced with a choice between cutting wages so they can give more back to shareholders, and paying staff a living wage, employers will always choose the former. That's why the state has to intervene. It's not complicated. What's more, the burden of lower wages and worse terms and conditions isn't borne by individual workers, it's borne by every taxpayer as government has to intervene in more and more complex ways to keep families out of poverty or to prevent the immiserization of whole sections of the unskilled poor.
It's time for people like Balls to face the truth. Every dividend paid now from the proceeds of ending final salary pension schemes is a pension payment the state will have to make in the future to people who will be worse off than they otherwise would be. Every badly paid worker who doesn't bring home enough money to feed his or her family is a tax on all of us as we pay for the excess profits the employer gleefully banks.
In those circumstances, writing a cretinous article straight out of the BNP handbook on how blame foreigners for everything should disqualify Ed Balls from ever holding office in the Labour Party gain."
"This despicable man has spent the last thirteen years lining his own pockets at the public expense while threatening all rivals, and bankrupting our country at the same time.
The man who manipulated a frighteningly disturbed Prime Minister into leading the most damaging regime for at least one hundred years.
Surely an appropriate leader of the terminally discredited Labour party.
In my view, it is beyond shame still to provide Balls with a platform.."
".
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/48d26910-4798-11df-a4a6-00144feab49a.html
Balls shouldn't be touched with a barge pole; he was Broon's de-regulatory bag-carrier from way back. Pathetic excuses as per usual. If a gov't can't resist ""huge pressure"" from the media and the City, if they have no power, they why should anyone vote for them? As for being unable to resist the Tories Nulab had 3 figure majorities so how dismal an excuse is that? But of course what Balls says is utterly disingenuous; they actively sought an alliance with the City(prawn cocktail offensive and onwards)"
There is nothing right-wing, never mind 'hysterical' about opposing the undemocratic and expansionist so-called 'European Union'. You would if if you supported democracy and the rights of working-class people.
"While Mr Balls may have many deficiencies (particularly moral), he aint stupid and you can see the obvious line of attack against the coalition.
We allow anyone based on their skills not their creed while you specifically target non-eu (and in the minds of voters) non white immigrants.
To be blunt while race is an issue for some in reality the main problem with much immigration is not racial or economic but cultural, we accept cultures who do not value our own culture. And rather than encouraging them to integrate to become British and enable us to learn something from their culture we allow the segregation of our communities on cultural lines with no discernible benefit. There is in some forms of immigration an irreconcilable clash of cultures
The underlying problem for the west is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilization whose people who are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power. The problem for Islam is not the CIA or the US department of defence. It is the west.
Samuel Huntington 1995!"
She also seems to have forgotten about Shapurji Saklatvala, elected as Communist MP for Battersea North in 1922, and Dadabhai Naoroji, elected as the Liberal MP for Finsbury Central in 1892.
"But Labour introuduced the minimum wage Ed so how could immigrants from the eastern European parts of the EU have had an impact on wages?
And are you saying that Poles, Lithuanians and Hungarians are less in employment legislation protection than Brits so industries employing them were able to 'empoly a light touch' as the saying goes? Surely not?"
"This is the real betrayal of british workers perpetrated by the Labour government - not immigration. In the modern world they are in competition with eastern europeans, indians and chinese, whether they like it or not. Banning immigration will not protect them, the jobs will just go abroad.
We have to compete, and we could, except Ed Balls and his colleagues have spent the last decade dumbing down our education system. I feel sorry for the generation who went through the education system under his government - they are well and truly screwed. Having gone throught school in the 80's and 90's - the era of supposed 'tory cuts' - at least I had the benefit of learning maths and sciences."
"""The government in which I was a cabinet minister and major league policy wonk made incompetent, unpopular and unnecessary decisions. Now please make me party leader"".
Mind if I get back to you on that one, Ed?"
"Dogstarscribe
`It's time for people like Balls to face the truth. Every dividend paid now from the proceeds of ending final salary pension schemes is a pension payment the state will have to make in the future to people who will be worse off than they otherwise would be. Every badly paid worker who doesn't bring home enough money to feed his or her family is a tax on all of us as we pay for the excess profits the employer gleefully banks.'
This is factually correct argument as far as the appalling damage to the economy perpetrated by Balls and Brown from the destruction of final,salary schemes.
The point about employers being `gleeful' at the loss of defined benefit schemes is simply wrong since providing such schemes was always a major factor in attracting the best applicants and demonstrated the high quality of such employers. employers always had a choice as to whether or not they offered a final salary scheme.
They do not any more c/o Brown, Balls and Cooper.
Shame on them for the terrible damage they have inflicted while personally enjoying the benefits of the best pension scheme in the country.
I read recently that the Balls family baked in excess of £500k last year. a poster above says that he found it difficult to decide whether or not to vote for Balls as leader.
What does this say?
g"
"I'd like to be controversial here and maybe ask people to rethink their mindset. I know we think that (we in) the UK are still the best thing since sliced bread but, aside from improving your English, is there really a good reason for all this unskilled labour to drift to the UK?
The pound you earn is (and in many cases it may even be only a pound thanks to agencies and gangmasters) is worth ever less when you send it back home, it's expensive, you are at the mercy of a bent buy-to-let sector that will charge you a fortune to live in a hovel, public transport is expensive, it's a quasi surveillance state worse than the one that your parents used to live in, the people seem to be getting more and more racist and xenophobic by the hour etcx etc etc. Moreover, if you believe the police and security bods a terrorist attack is iminent 24/7. I just can't quite believe that there are herds of people queueing to get in. Really."
`Banked' - sorry
I'll explain. The minimum wage was pitched very low, most factory workers received more than the minimum wage because competition amongst employers for workers drove wage levels up. But when all of a sudden hundreds of thousands of workers from low-wage states entered the country, there was an abundance of labour supply, so average wages dropped down nearer to the minimum wage.
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"Lemmywinks

Allowed to come in then. The head of the CBI(the then Sir Fatso Digby Jones) said that ""immigrants are doing the work for less""(quoted in Elliot's Fantasy Island). So obviously there were losers - ie Labour's traditional constituency, which is why Balls has written his canting piece.
His well-padded Lordship Jones did a TV programme about ""Neets"" in Swindon, he was lecturing and patronising the lads in his best style. There didn't appear to be anything much wrong with them, save a lack of opportunity. Anyway Jones was ""motivating"" the young unemployed in what was apparently the former British Rail engineering workshops, now derelict. The irony of this appeared to escape him - as indeed it always escapes chancers like him and Balls"
"Ed,
if you had ACTED when your government's claim that 13,000 workers would come to the UK from Eastern Europe proved laughably inaccurate, and turned into an outcome of over one million, then you might have a slim chance to be believed.
You didn't act. Instead, the million+ Eastern Europeans proceeded to distort the British economy, imposing social costs far in excess of any benefit the provided.
Indeed, your actions were to commission flawed study after flawed study, utilising bogus premises to assert lies that the immigrants were benefiting the country, not harming us.
So please, stop weeping crocodile tears. Stop performing U-turns when you have no power. You went full speed ahead when you had your hands on the levers of power, and you had access to the facts. We don't believe your claims. A damacene conversion on the road to the party leadership is laughable."
So one of New Labour's senior lieutenants has admitted that they were "wrong not to have restrictions on immigration". So that's an admission of unrestricted/uncontrolled immigration under that administration. Now all we need them to do is admit that uncontrolled immigration was a deliberate, albeit unspoken, policy of New Labour. I remember when they first got in they abolished those reasonable "Primary Purpose" rules on immigration via marriage opening up waves of chain migration and sending out the signal that the UK was an easy touch to get into. Which it proved to be in those 13 years.
"'Free movement of goods and services [without] free movement of labour'. So in other words, a two-tier Europe: Poles, Czechs, Romanians and so on are allowed to work - in Poland, the Czech Republic and Romania - for pittance in horrendous conditions in order to pproduce cheap goods/services that fuel our growth, comfortable lifestyles, etc, but if they want to have a share in this growth, lifestyle, etc., they'll be hounded away at the door.
If that's what you want, fine, but don't call it a 'fair and open world'."
"Mr Balls, what a nasty little article by a nasty little man.
You say

It is very cheap and inaccurate of you, no matter what MacShane has said, to accuse Mr Cameron in this manner.
Your own record in government is abysmal and I suggest that you and your friends allow the Coalition a chance to sort out the mess that you lot have left behind you."
"_AT_ BUrgau205
The decline of final salary pension schemes started, not in 1997, when so many posters on here think history began, but during the previous government, when pension fund surpluses were capped and pension contribution holidays for employers were not only permitted but encouraged. The result was that funds were much less well equipped to cope with market shocks and actuarial shifts."
You had 13 years, you did sod all. What you and your dis-credited nu-labour friends need to do is resign and let some fresh blood into the Labour party. That might be enough to prevent Labour from being out of power as long as the Tories. Of course that would require you and your nu labour friends to put country and party above you own interests. Not likely to happen.
"I don't remember you speaking out like this when Bliar and Brown were in charge.
Hypocrisy? or am I losing my memory?"
The easiest benefits (without workfare conditionality) and housing benefit system in Europe. Child benefit can be sent home. No language tests for you or your extended family. Free schools, free health care. Soft policing and enforcement. Soft tax inspection. Officials don't speak any languages apart from English. Idiosyncracies like pickpocketing and killing and eating swans accepted as valuable cultural diversity......
"Yes you were.
You were also wrong to let in so many from other parts of the world with alien cultures and to ignore the consequences on our way of life."
"Dogstarscribe
You have little understanding of defined benefits rules and are latching onto well worn but entirely incorrect canards.
I have to go shopping now but if you are around in about two hours, let me know and I will explain pension scheme holidays and the 5% accrual cap etc.
Suffice to say, pension holidays are normally imposed upon defined benefits schemes by scheme administrators or consulting actuaries and, in almost all cases do not convey an advantage to the corporate sponsor of the scheme.
The funding cap is likewise misunderstood by most employees who don't bother to read the scheme rule book."
"The perception that immigrants use/abuse the benefits system is a major factor in our concern about immigration. Most of the cases of gross abuse seem to be directed against Non-European immigrants. Housing benefit of over £1,000 per week being an example. We have a minimum wage structure in this country which means that both British & foreign workers have a common baseline for their pay. So we should not have stories of immigrants working for less than the minimum wage. It seems that most EU migrants what ever their qualifications would prefer to work rather than rely on benefits. This is in stark contrast to some British workers. A lot of the jobs being created in Britain are low wage, menial tasks. The Poles, etc see these as stepping stones to a better future, the British see them as offering nothing over their benefits. That is our problem!!.
Ed Balls & Labour dismissed the reality before the election, it has come back to haunt them now."
"Which is why I'll never vote Labour again. They still got loads of votes despite their immigration policy, and yet in a clamour for power they are prepared to be as racist and bigoted as the Tories. It is pathetic and they don't distinguish themselves from the racism of the Tories so what is the point of voting for them?
Immigration isn't a problem - racism and trying to blame whole sections of humanity for a country's ills is the problem."
"It's like Balls is up before the parole board.
""Yes, I understand now that what I did was wrong, really wrong. I caused a lot of hurt to a lot of people, and I'm really, really sorry.
But everyone deserves a second chance. So please let me out, and put me in charge of the country."""
"Cypher2

Not something Balls would care to talk about, or indeed the consequences which Nulab sought to control by what must be considered the creation of a surveillance state; which has reached an extraordinary pitch here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/04/birmingham-surveillance-cameras-muslim-community"
". That means re-examining the relationship between domestic laws and European rules which allow unaccompanied migrants to send child benefit and tax credits back to families at home.
This is crucial. We need to end the lunacy of giving tax payers money to immigrants in the form of benefits and tax credits which simply further incentivises people to come here.
Perhaps we could agree with other EU states that the cost of benefits to UK nationals else where in the EU will be met by HM Treasury on the condition the same applies in reverse.
As for non EU nationals if they are not able to earn their own living they shouldn't be here.
Immigrants should also be lower priority for social housing."
Nice to see that the Far Right blogs got their bloggers out of bed on a sunday and raving.
Not so much that as going to USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. British born and trained medical staff find there are no teaching (learning) positions in the UK Health Service as Health Trusts are not allowed to take them in preference to foreign born and trained medical staffs who now form the majority of clinical staff in the NHS. We train medical staff for other countries now, not for Britain.
"This article seems to have provided an opportunity to call Ed Balls a racist! Is there is no end to this word's wanton application? To a man intimately involved in a project to ""rub the middle classes noses in multiculturalism""?!
Now Balls is, without exception one of the most nauseating contemporary politicians. Just a little school cap on that tidy schoolboy haircut and the effect would be a truer representation of his Jeffrey Archer-esque eagerness to please; something which manifests itself as universal wariness.
But, while Balls is a hypocrite, a hopeless party-lackey and a laughing stock, I'm just not sure that accusing him of racism - because he thinks his party's made a rather unpopular mistake in the field of immigration, is going to help anyone not least because it's patently untrue."
At least one Labour leadership candidate is willing to speak the truth on mass immigration and the dreadful effect it has had on British society.
It does apply in reverse. If you can speak and read and write Romanian you can get a job in Romania and send Romanian child benefits home. Try it and see how much you get !!! Britain has the most generous no questions asked benefits system in Europe. No conditionalities. No qualifications required. That is the problem. We even provide translators !!!!
"Sorry Ed but I'd have thought a bigger reason to block Turkey's entry to the EU might be their lack of freedom of speech. It is a criminal offence to criticise the state or the republics founding father Ataturk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301
If it is a criminal offence to publicly discuss the mass killing of Kurds and Armenians in 1915 then entry to the EU should not be allowed. I would love to see Turkeys entry to the EU on the basis of repeal of its most backward and human rights infringing laws."
"Algebraist

That is one of the finest posts I've ever seen on this site - thank you."
"Why can you not say in The Guardian that excessive immigration from asian is wrong for Britain.
Its not racist, its an opinion, shared by a great many people who are getting angry that in this country and on this site people cannot express this political view."
"Lemmywinks
6 Jun 2010, 10:25AM


Sorry not sure where your economic analysis comes from but some points to be considered:
1. The US is one country, even if it is federal state, so that transfer payments, education policy, and a national currency means that there is a fairer level playing field between workers in New York and Austin than say New York and a city in Mexico. If Turkey joins the EU tomorrow it does not overnight become the same as someone from London competing with someone from Manchester first or even Frankfurt second.
2.(a) If open borders in immigration were 100% positive why is this not included in the NAFTA agreement so that Mexicans and Canadians enjoy free movements - or does the USA know something you do not?
2.(b) Related to (a) is human beings are not just goods, they are the reason for democracy and utlimate actors who benefit from economic activity. So we play a different role than capital goods in society - thankfully!
A example would be - If capital goods prices were reduced on mass this can be a positive to the economy as a whole but if wages were redued on mass this is unlikely to be positive to the economy on a whole as wages = demand and demand = the buying of goods. Keynes was the pioneer of Macro vs. Micro and is worth a read on this subject.
3. Import and Export: Should an immigrants come in not to settle but to earn more for their families back home then they are effectively and import which means that purchasing power is lost abroad.
4. Economics vs. Society: man does not live by economics alone. Therefore, importing immigrants from an ""alien"" culture will have an effect (good or bad depending on your view points). If you value diversity then fine but some do not or not in every case at least. On the other side of the equation, immigrant can break the national cultural bonds and help to produce cultural gheteos. Immigration can result in ""strange"" cultural practices that are unwanted by the host culture: arrange marriages, female circumcision, primitive religious practice (i.e. believing in demonized children), family marriage (i.e. marrying between cousins) etc.
Overall, immigration is not 100% bad or good but a activity like any other that will produce winners and losers. Even if you net out the economic benefits and say that is a good thing that does still negate that there will always be winners and loser. But as point 4 shows, it has a cultural dimension which is ultimately a value judgement.
I'll stop there as I need to go for a jog...nice chatting all and as others have said it is only now that Ed is not in government he even acknowledges that immigration was a problem...prior to that when people like me and others mentioned it we were smeared with being little Englanders, biggots if not racist....

Sorry Ed, all I can say is too little too late.
Stanford...off for a jog."
"cinematizer

Easy to see what you're after, Cinematizer: foreigners to work over here ""in demeaning jobs for low wages"", as you said yourself.
Don't tell us - you're an employer, right?
No wonder you're ""grateful"".
But don't tell us British working-class how we're supposed to feel about it."
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This is a 'cock and balls' story!
"Immigration is normal now. Sorry, but there it is. Globalisation worked our way for 30 years (cheap food and the rest) but now it does not.
I live in one of those European areas Ed mentioned. 35% immigrant here (and this in a nation we Brits think of as not diverse). Not sure why he pointed us out though - there are relatively few Britains working in Frankfurt. (Only 7,000 in the whole German state inwhich it is located).
I think Brits need to open their eyes. Poles prepared to share cheap lodgings and do the jobs Brits don't want to? Yes, that's economic migration. Just like the myriad Brits in Berlin in their 200 Eur a month rooms getting all exciting about their nice generous German welfare benefits and 400 Eur a month jobs as well. And the zillion Brits in Spain who do not even register their presence and work ""black"".
That earlier nonsense about language tests is just typical low Beritish exectation. It takes a few months to get by in another language. It's no barrier to emigration. Means testing would be a far bigger one.
And as for those strange British men here who wet themseves because (wow) they were once in the same room as Polish girl and, guess what, she even deigned to speak to them. Really, try to be a bit cooler guys, perhaps? Plenty of us British ladies are hanging out with, having sex with, marrying, having children with foreign men. It's really no big deal. Totally normal. it says nothing about the British men we turn down."
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"Have I got this right?
Gurkhas can live here, because they are heroic ex-military men.
Other foreigners can't."
"Lemmywinks

They were brought in.
The British Government along with the CBI set up agencies in Eastern Europe to recruit workers and facilitate their emigration to Britain. They even advertised on Polish TV.
While avoiding conflictive areas (Burnley, for instance) they directed the workers towards designated towns and cities.
And they paid the councils to accept them.
I call that ""brought in""."
"http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7144906.ece
There is a serious problem, their forecasts were complete shite
Funny that we have never been so enriched by immigration, but never so broke.
Obviously it is Mrs Duffy's fault, and all those dreadful indigenous bigoted proles of course.
What is needed is more immigration.
There should be more articles by Phillipe Legrain(http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/philippelegrain) on here expounding the great truths of the ""lump labour fallacy"" and that there is no fixed pool of jobs in the economy - he's right there; there's going to be a lot less"
"""Picking on white European immigrants is just a sneaky way for a left wing politician to disrespect immigrants without being called racist""
-how about the colour immigrants?
Are you blind?
; )"
"Ed, I wonder if you have stopped to consider that, if elected, you would put the Labour Party into reverse gear for parliaments?
Personally, I wish that you would have the good grace to recognise your unpopularity, (outside of the MP supporters who have nominated you for the leadership, from within the House of Commons), and stand aside.
After 13 years the party needs fresh blood. Not people who are tainted, and perceived by the electorate to be inextricably linked with failure."
"Ed Balls has got some nerve. This ' we screwed up ' posturing doesn't make amends for anything. As for the NHS, it has always had a low pay culture for ancillary staff like hospital porters, roundsmen, etc. It is a wonder the NHS ever attracted any blue collar workforce with the poor wages on offer.
I don't think the likes of Balls, or his Labour colleagues, have got a clue what they are on about when talking about the NHS. It clearly now is a poor imitation of the quality health service it once was."
You could start by sending back the Milibands. Skilled workers my arse.
"So, it is Ed Balls who is staking out the ground as the right wing candidate in the leadership election.
Theclaim made here that the overall impact of recent migration has eroded the wages and conditions of working class peopleis not borne out by the facts. Negative imnpacts of this sort have been limited both in terms of the sectors involved and geographical regions. To quote the findings of the WorkFoundation's study on the impact of migration:

Check http://theworkfoundation.co.uk/pressmedia/news/newsarticle.aspx?oItemId=45 for the source and the full study.
This article is evidence that a section of the Labour party elite believes that their power can only be re-built by situating themselves to the right of the coalltion, claiming that their subserviance to to banking and finance as a motor for economic growth represents a superior strategy to guide the recovery. Balls clearly intends to mobilise nationalistic anxieties to plot a course for his political fortune. These people never learn!"
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"But Mr Balls, several politicians informed us that as members of the EU, these Eastern Europeans were entitled to come in. So what is the ""allow"".
I suspect Mr Balls wants to appear tough on immigration and has picked in an easy diffuse target unlikely to accuse him of racism.
Rest assured, if anyone discusses asylum or other immigrants groups, he will be his usual right-on self throwing accusations like confetti."
"“strong controls on unskilled migration”
So why are there so many illegal immigrants and how do they manage to get in? They can’t all hide in lorries to cross the Channel.
At the same time as allowing virtually unrestricted immigration, the previous government made it increasingly difficult for legitimate visitors and businessmen to obtain visas. In fact it is so difficult that the massage is “we don’t want you”.
For example, about 18 months ago, a Tunisian employee of my company needed to obtain a visa to attend a trade show in the UK. Apparently his, and all other, applications and passports had to be sent to an independent UK government contractor in Egypt for a decision! Furthermore, the minimum time in which a visa could be issued was 15 days. We gave up.
I am now trying to help an Egyptian businessman to renew his 2 year multiple visa. However, it is barely worthwhile applying because of the burdensome questions. For example, he has to list all visits made outside Egypt, including dates, duration and the purpose of the visits, for the last 10 years! There must be at least 50 of these and I am sure many businessmen would have travelled much more than that over 10 years.
What relevance is it for a businessman, who wants to come to the UK for some meetings, to list the money he gives each month to his family and other dependents? How is this supposed to be answered, especially for someone with complicated financial arrangements that vary month by month? Why ask such questions as: Have you ever been involved in, supported, or encouraged terrorist activities in any country? Who on earth would answer ‘yes’?
For businessmen (and visitors), especially those already known to the UK authorities, there should be a much simpler procedure for visa applications.
Mr. Balls and other ex-ministers have much to answer for."
"orkney89 confided

Hang on orkney89 I'll check... (...reads standard Equalities and Diversity manual...)
Yes I can confirm it does. Congratulations, you have made a racist comment. You are using a negative stereotype (homely skanks) to deprecate a racial and gendered group, namely indigenous white British females. I'd take a wild guess that you don't belong to this group yourself.
No need to be concerned though since the groups you are comparing are both white european and therefore you can say what you like about them. The group you are deprecating, white Brits, have even less status on CiF so this probably didn't register on anyone's radar. Except mine."
"No, Balls. You weren't wrong for letting in eastern Europeans, you were wrong for letting employers pay rubbish wages and offer rubbish conditions and making the British labour market so ""competitive"". You pretended that your shitty, pathetic minimum wage legislation was all the protection that workers needed in the new Europe.
And you got away with all of this because, with the exception of a few old men, there are no working class MPs left in the Labour Party, no one to speak up for the unskilled manual labourers who bore the brunt of your ""competitive"" labour market."
"thfc123

Surely, it's up to employers to decide which level of English their employees speak."
Outrageous article………….why, Labour set up a special unit of the Border Agency in Sheffield which is forcing Romanians and Bulgarians to work for under the minimum wage and outside employment laws. The Home Office and the Department of Health and Social Security both are part of an elaborate system to try and prevent them obtaining NHI numbers, a legal right under European Law. There are agencies charging £600 for a Yellow Student card (issued by Sheffield) which allows them to work 20 hours a week. Hotels in London will engage Romanians to clean room at £5 per room. Frequently they may only get 2 or 3 rooms a day but need to be at the Hotel for 10 hours. Ed Balls really should be very careful about what he’s saying about European immigration.
"_AT_ArseneKnows 6 Jun 2010, 1:05AM

Tell us, do, exactly HOW one might describe the EU as a democratic institution? And if it is not - as it is not - why you think it a good thing? Already, we have seen it used to invert our legal system in such a way that whereas it used to be - for centuries - ""If it ain't specifically banned, it's legal"", now, the converse is the case.
Many Russians think it hilarious that 20 years after we trumpetted the fall of the Wall as the triumph of Western Democracy, we are now creating our own EUSSR, with an utterly unnacountable ruline elite in charge of us.
Anyway, over to you. I'm all ears ... so to speak"
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"If we had eradicated poverty in the UK, had decent wages at the low end, a decent public housing stock, had decent industries with decent apprenticeships and a sustainable economy with good long term prospects I would have been far more predisposed towards recent mass immigration than I am - although I will never 'blame' any immigrant of whatever nationality or colour for what has gone on here. Instead mass immigration has made England in particular even more of a basket case than it already was. Therefore IMO non-EU immigration and EU immigration should have been curtailed because it was bound to impact on the living standards of the people already here and especially as ever the poorest in our society.
As a result I for one will never forgive Labour for unfettered mass immigration and their flagrant use of the race card to discredit any criticism of such a policy so they could as I specfically recall ensure the Hoteling and Catering industries were supplied with all the labour they needed - copyright, D Blunkett circa 2003. (Imagine the entire make-up of a nation being changed to appease the Catering industry?!) So I don't care what you or any other nulab supporter say to ameliorate what you have done beyond noting this ill thought and predictably distasteful attempt to scapegoat Eastern Europeans (you should be ashamed to single any group in particular out!). And I don't think the Tories or Libs are any better. As churlish as it sounds you've effectively disenfranchised me through this and many other issues. I now know why so many people I know have totally and completely disconnected from politics. Depressing."
"MORE underpayed labour zones.
MORE delocalisation.
Open up your arms to global exploitation.
When it fails, use the old national pride trick."
"'Poles have become a symbol of honest work and fair pay. They speak better English than the natives, too'
Partly true. Honest? They have records of many sick- leave notes issued by the same doctor.They are familar with social security regulations and rules...
It is also true they are have the habit to squeeze other nationals out, by keeping the insider? information JUST to their country men. The younger females are willingly trade their dignity for better positions-the locals can hardly beat them-for some unarguable reasons.
There has been no host culture such a thing-they are all speaking their own language even at work, buying Polish foods, throw their Polish party every weekends-just go checking areas of their accommodations , how many refuse sacks they have thrown each week and to, how much child benefits they gained, for their homeland?
Yes, they are hard working and prepare to do almost anything for themselves, even they are the 'brought in'.
The locals can hardly survive with their hourly rates coz locals are not travelling/living together that they do not pay single occupant rated council tax but produced 4 or 5 times rubbish...anyway they are 'brought in to do what the lazy Brits do not want to do' by globalization.
If you are blind to these, then you should happily keep your mouth shut, that they are here for your retirement funding, and to improve your gene pools. All Brits should think of stop giving birth, as the Poles are the much better species, they speak better English than the Brits haha ; )
BTY, why not bring more Indian in, they speak/write much better English, and have much high IQ, and their girls are much prettier ( IMHO, slimmer) than those overfed Eastern European ladies?
And Mr Ball, it is too late to spin now."
"How many economist does it take to switch out the light bulb of neoliberal capitalism?
Too many, busy telling is its still working if we only change the decoration.
Obviously we have to do the society change ourself."
What are you talking about? Why is German young generation supposed to be pass away premature?
"Dunnyboy

Exactly - 40*£5.85/HOUR doesn't win any prizes with the high rents and utility bills that have to be forked out.
To the extent that British workers have opted for a ""life"" on benefits rather than working in min wage conditions this just shows that the latter is inferior to the former as a life-style; a pretty wretched state. Although overall we live in a mass unemployment society, which never went away from the eighties onwards -contrary to what gov't's claimed, and attempted to demonstrate with a whole raft of cynical expedients.
Every month we hear the same old rubbish to the effect that ILO measure unemployment is up, economic inactivity is up; but by some gravity defying device the claimant count is down.
Effectively setting min wage as a ceiling worsens the grotesque income disparities and social division within the country and also socialises the cost because WFTC and HB has to be paid out to ensure that people can survive at all - given that benefit spending accounts for about 30% of public expenditure this impacts adversely on the desperate fix we in vis a vis the deficit. Balls' wretched gov't did nothing to even try and stop the appalling drain of better paying manufacturing jobs which created real wealth and supported many more jobs throughout supply chains, unlike burger flipping and shelf-stacking. Balls and his demented boss were propagandists for win-win globalisation, which was a complete and utter lie"
If humanity wants to survive, the old work ethic mantra :" willing to do hard work under each social condition" has to be revealed for what it is : exploitation.
"Spot on PaulLambert
Capital, goods and services seem to have more rights than humans (workers)."
"Eastern European immigration simply replaced Irish immigration after the Republic of Ireland became richer and better run then the UK from the mid 1990's onward.
Ed Balls just found the Irish to be more of a laugh."
'we' did not decide that. You and your political buddies decided that. And now you seek to cynically use that decision to launch your leadership bid. You are dead in the water already if this is the best you can do.
"Stanford

Sad? SAD?????
It fills my heart with joy!
Let them bring in as many foreign middle-class undergraduates as employers want.
Throw our own molly-coddled, moaning, lazy, 9 to 5, bonus-grabbing, 4x4 driving, sanctimonious, posh-talking, anti-racist, Guardian-reading, wine-sodden middle-classes on the scrap heap.
I've heard there's plenty of jobs for them in Armenia, if they'll just get off their arses.
Let's see how they like it.
Then we working-classes can sit back and have a bloody good belly-laugh. God knows, it's time we had one."
Oh, I didn't know there was a Tory party leadership election as well! Strange timing, but there you go...
Ed Ball's immigration policy can be summed up in a few words: rob the poor countries of their skilled labour but keep the unskilled out. This apart from being immoral is also impractical. People who try to smuggle themselves into this country are among the most enterprising but are also the most desperate to improve their situations as well as of their immediate families. Those who are allowed to settle here bring their families over and find their children informed by the sufferings of their parents on the whole do much better than natve children in our school system. They are our future as much as anyone else. You can not walk along any high street in inner London without noticing the economic activities of the so-called unskilled workers. Many of them create their own jobs or do jobs which natives are not prepared to do. So why blame them for the predicament of of the unskilled workers in this country. Our welfare system is more to blame than anything else.
"...'so how does Labour plan to solve the problem of an ageing population?...
Immigrants don't grow old then?"
How does someone with live with a name like Ed Balls?
"You won't win votes from Labour Party members like myself by attacking migrant workers in a manner which comes across as racist when the real problem is the need for fair pay and decent, affordable housing for all. Labour failed on both these issues because it was in thrall to big business and the City of London. You never set the minimum wage high enough to take people out of benefits and because you allowed the private 'buy-to-let' housing sector grow uncontrolled and gave them tax perks on top, you made it very difficult for ordinary 'hard working families' (to use that phrase beloved by Labour politicians) to buy homes.
This not only alienated the young ones, it upset their parents as well (people like me and my wife). That thirteen years of Labour came to this is a measure of how badly you failed the Labour Party's core vote. The issues on the doorstep were low pay and expensive housing. Tackle these problems and you go a long way to addressing the issue of migrant workers.
Of course, Labour did better than the Tories or the Liberals would have done (or will), but when Brown and Blair embraced privatisation, PFIs and free markets to achieve what they did, they gave away far more than they gained and we and our children will be paying the price for a long time to come. And you, Ed Balls, were there at the centre and only now you tell us!
The fact that we held on in places like Nottingham where I live was because we have a community based Labour Party and a strong Labour controlled city council. I might always agree with them, but their mine and I want to feel that way about the next Labour government."
Of course New Labour are a joke, but I don't see anything racist about the article.
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Agreed after the first three words
"Northener

Too true
The axe is hovering over the Graun jobs page; time to put principles into practice
mathanai

A return to Dickensian London, nice"
"It is beyond irony that I, Tory to my boots and a fair bit right of David Cameron should choose to defend Ed Balls who is probably the most cynical and manipulative member of the last government and whose responsibility for the appalling damage they wrought will be spelled out many times in the future.
However, let me bring to your attention that Balls opposed the minimum wage vehemently on the grounds that it creates unemployment and thus its disadvantages far outweigh its presumed advantages.
In this, Ed Balls was right.
He does not mention it now though. Plu ca change.............."
"BeatonTheDonis

Yes and no. Having stayed in a supposedly good hotel for a night last week, I would as a customer have expected more of one the waiting staff than to have a perfectly reasonable question met with a blank stare, followed by the summoning of a colleague who understood basic English.
The employer is free to employ these people. I'm free not to go back again. And the Official Receiver is welcome to go in my place."
"Funny how people on this site are so staunchly pro free-markets when it comes to the movement of labour.
I enjoy the cultural benefit of our multicultural society but who really gains from immigration other then businesses who get to exploit foreign labour with long hours and low pay? Why is it so commonly accepted that British people are too proud to do certain jobs? What's liberal about keeping significant proportions of our society dependent on the state in order to survive? Sounds like a load of bollocks to me."
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"What a week of revelations. Confessions are being wrung from all areas of the last Government as people realign behind a new view of government, indulge in pre-emptive cleansing in the light of yet to be discovered transgressions, as here they try and eschew that that they were somehow suppressed and unwilling to be part of the fundamentals of the Government which, in all other departures, they were a strong proponent. Whom, bearing in mind the ease with which politicians have access to briefings and leaks, could not find a way of insinuating an altered view.
The FSA, Global Warming, two fundamental issues of modern day society, have been shown, at root, to be more issues of will rather than of fact. When a fabulously endowed Meteorological Office comes second best to a private company and its effective measures for assessing flying conditions, as with volcanic dust, we see a level of indirection that can amass when the political will is greater than the fundamental requirement. To what end have well meaning people been frightened into qualifications that the science does not actually have a clear view of? What countless billions have been squandered not addressing a problem but to prove a point? What risks have been taken with a country's economy simply because there has been a requirement to accommodate a dogma?
The Government, in a Cabinet environment, promised that the European directive on open boarders would only attract 12,000 or so people to these islands; I have no idea personally how many it did attract but estimations have suggested a million or more. Was Mr Balls, an agitator and a force suppressed by no one, not in on that comprehension of the situation? At which point in this Gulf of Mexico swell of human traffic did he have his Damascene moment of the actualité? Against a background of untrammelled access from the world in immigration numbers one would have thought that the pressure on services and the Welfare State would have informed him of the need for his intervention and the cautioning of his fellow Cabinet members. Yet only now he speaks; was Brown so much of a tyrant that before his departure the coterie surrounding him were frightened to speak their minds?
This is the Andrew Neather exposé made real. The truth is that the trap that Labour constructed was prepared for the Tories, to ‘out’ them on immigration policy and to have the propaganda coup in abeyance, '...the Tories are a neo-Nazi band of racists', if the Tories ever tried to oppose Labour disastrous support for a deeply inflicting policy that even they privately did not seem to want? The scale of immigration and the discontinuity it has caused is potentially far more damaging for Britain than the current financial crises. Financial matters can be confronted and challenged - an immigrant is for life and all subsequent lives.
You see, now that all the arguments about the purposefulness of immigrants and the benefits they accrue, their general good nature, the lessons they teach us, the wonders of multiculturalism, are all for nought, for we now know that such amiability was required to sell the project and had no need to have any association with reality. I quite like the ""Good porcelain doggy"" advert, it tickles me. Ask me what is being sold and I would not have a clue. The same could be said for Labour's insistence on the scale of immigration. Was there promise about selling dirty jobs to dirt poor people? Were they going to lift the immigrant’s children out of poverty or our own? Was it really worth denigrating the white working class so vehemently just to find space for a Tory trap? Were immigrants going to pay for our pensions and how?
As the whole of the intake was personified by the Labour Government as being good fellows to a man so it was easy to establish that a whole class of white indigenous people could be personified as little more than trailer trash by comparison as the cuckoo state eased its old allies out of the historic alliance; this could be done in the name of policy! How much we have been manipulated: Global Warming, GM, 'the money's all gone', volcanic dust, 'that bigoted woman'. Key resignations in regulatory authorities point to organisations that were told what their message had to be and told to go and look for some sort of supporting cod science with which to do it. The money and the volcanic ash seem of the same substance, and that bigoted woman, she did no more than Lear's Fool, Dostoyevsky's 'Idiot' in demonstrating the simple truth, but stating what the executive did not want to hear.
Mr Ball's has a neck! He either shows himself to be merely an opportunist or gutless. Which sword does he fall on? The former, in that he can slip-on a policy as you or I would pull on our ‘kecks’, the latter in that he suggests that someone made him do it, stay silent despite his better judgement. Which vision is the more egregious?"
"Mr Balls,
There are a lot of fact-free statements in your piece, for example:

This is totally contradicted by this:
""UK economic recovery to lag France and Germany, S&P forecasts""
""[S&P] paint a picture of a three-speed recovery with big northern countries gaining the most momentum, southern countries such as Spain and Greece just about clambering out of recession and the UK sandwiched in between.""
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jun/03/uk-economic-recovery-lag-france-germany
Hang on a minute... the UK 'sandwiched in between'? Which translated in non-culinary terms means the UK being a mediocre average if it was inside the Eurozone.
Balls joins the Europhobic theories pointing to the idea that the UK is sooooo lucky it is not in the Eurozone because by being out it can apply its own monetary policy, e.g. devalue its way out of trouble, and come out of the recession first and in the best shape of them all?
The only difference I can see between the 'crisis hit' Eurozone and 'non crisis hit' UK is that the UK's inflation is way above that of the Eurozone.
The other difference is, perhaps, that the UK scrapes a position in the middle of the 'sandwich' only thanks to vast quantities of money printing, e.g. property prices are up by 12% year on year.
Haven't we been here before?

What Directive? The one that you were hell-bent on breaking while in government?
""E-BORDERS"" PROJECT TO DIGITISE IMMIGRATION CONTROL ""WILL BE ILLEGAL IN EU"" SAYS COMMITTEE
http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/home_affairs_committee/091218.cfm

You would appear more honest if you stopped peddling this Blairite, Brownite nonsense. You should just say ""We are nominally in the EU because Uncle Sam wants us to but Britain is nowhere near the heart of Europe as it is the only EU country that has refused to join the two most prominent pillars of European integration, the Eurozone and Schengen (the pillar that guarantees *true* freedom of movement of people inside Europe).""

This is an honest but incomplete assessment. You should openly state that from then on, immigration policies have turned into a farce of tough talk, rings of steel and points based systems that are nothing but a totally misguided and flawed kneejerk reaction to the backlash created by the Eastern European migration. In other words, all the rest of immigrants and the travelling public in general have been made a scapegoat for that 2004 policy, without having any effect whatsoever on how many Eastern Europeans are in the UK or arriving in the future (not that I'm personally bothered with that anyway).
Of course it is now too late to bring any common sense into the matter as the whole British political elite have reversed into a border control fundamentalism group think. Too late as you didn’t listen to common sense advice given to you *before* this populist-fundamentalist group think infected the whole of the political elite:
“48. The Government failed to convince the Committee that systematic border control as currently practised for all arrivals in the United Kingdom, whether from the European Union or elsewhere, is the most effective use of resources to control illegal immigration or is focused on the main sources of illegal immigration.”
""59. We believe that in the three major areas of Schengen—border controls, police co-operation (SIS) and visa/asylum/immigration policy—there is a strong case, in the interests of the United Kingdom and its people, for full United Kingdom participation. Free movement throughout the EEA is a right which all citizens of the United Kingdom should be entitled to enjoy.”
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199899/ldselect/ldeucom/37/3705.htm"
"We fucking know you were! We kept telling you! Just like Iraq and the WMD, you didn't listen. That's why you've been dumped on your arses out of Downing Street.
Ed Balls - at least you got your name right."
"Britain as a whole has done quite nicely thank you due to the immigration from the eastern block. Yes it’s kept the wages down, yes it’s made it harder to get a job and yes it’s made it harder to fine low cost housing.
However and it’s a big however, the availability of cheaper labour has made for a prolonged period of growth in an economy that was in decline prior to the favourable economic migrants. There has been almost 13 years of uninterrupted growth and expansion within the UK’s economy, year on year everyone’s income has more or less increased.
With this in mind what would have happened without the increase in available labour? One thing inflation would have gone through the roof and intern your pay increase would have meant nothing much and the UK would intern not be moving forward.
Examples, Birmingham around 2001-2004 was a building site myself I was a banker within a retail bank and receiving and assisting Polish, Iraqi and Afghan workers opening accounts and paying there wages into them, for a month on the Birmingham building sites they were bringing cheques in to the value of £1800-£2000, thinking that the building trade was massive at this point within the whole of the UK what would these wages have been without the so called cheap foreign workforce?
I like Ed Balls I really do, however I feel that this is “Hi my names Ed too and I did listen, I did make mistakes and I have changed my view. This is New Labour’s evolution, and we know you have real concerns and when I’m the leader I’ll address them.”
However, what is needed is an expanding economy, with an availability of real jobs, decent wages and a place to bring up our children in an affordable place to live. Something the expanding economy has simply forgot about."
"Britain was one of the only three countries in 2004 to give all new EU citizens automatic work rights. But the Home Office’s blunder was based on an estimated figure of up to 13,000 a year to move to the UK. However, in the same year the number has jumped to 600,000. This was happening in a total vacuum and without a managed system in place to ease the pressure on schools, hospitals and our transport, a typical Labour fudge. Labour's mismanagement affected everyone, I am sorry to say that Labour has only managed to create a Satsi Orwellian system.
At the time, the ex- Labour minister, Frank Field said on the EU free labour movement “We foolishly went ahead and had an open-door policy and instead of between 5,000 and 13,000 people arriving, in the first year something like half a million did”. Even the former Home Office Minister John Denham called on the Government to delay full rights for Bulgarians and Romanians, saying the UK needed ""breathing space"" to soak up the last wave. It beggars belief that we are also paying child benefits in their own, EU countries.
Now though, Ed Balls, is drumming up the immigration card to win votes, this is no more than the politics of bankruptcy. Nowadays it is becoming fashion to hear from Labour's senior politicians, we were wrong."
In order to avoid new wars in Europe, it was created EU. Robert Schuman was one of the first politicians that wanted the European union. He meant to eliminate the crisis between France and Germany, which had led to the first and second world war. Other politicians and the US longed EU to decrease Soviet influence into Europe. Nowadays those problems don't exist any more, therefore it's a commercial alliance rather than a political exigency. To what extent is European politics being important for EU member countries? In spite of no real political exigency, EU is influencing the national policy and, what's more, it seems to me those political actions are wrong. Greek working class mayn't pay for absurd economic policy. The European stability pact has been a breakdown, and has increased unemployment and inflation. Sooner or later there will be another country in crisis owing to it. Europe has got to improve its rules. It could do with swelling public investments. The US has done it, and unemployment is lower and lower there. But I'm quite sure the EU won't do it. Instead of dealing with it, all of them will keep doing stupid economic rules.
"Quernston
6 Jun 2010, 12:59PM

The plan is, as soon as our old people become infirm/reached the age where they need looking after, Labour will import loads of young Eastern Europeans to look after them, wipe their arses, cook food, etc. etc. Then, as soon as said elderly people die, the young immigrants will be thanked, paid-off, and sent back home!
Some immigrants, of course, will stay here upon realising its either wipe arses, drive buses, or pick asparagus!"
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 15:7"
"kookboy
`However and it’s a big however, the availability of cheaper labour has made for a prolonged period of growth in an economy that was in decline prior to the favourable economic migrants. There has been almost 13 years of uninterrupted growth and expansion within the UK’s economy, year on year everyone’s income has more or less increased'
Are you the last one left to understand that this was all an illusion, based upon, at the outset, spending every penny in treasury,selling half our gold reserves and then borrowing to the extent that the country is now bankrupt.
Do you still really not understand this?
Balls, Cooper and Brown were the architects of all this, and now he has the brass neck, being bought and paid for by the Unite union to aspire to the Labour leadership.
I for one hope that he achieves his goal which will mean the chance of us ever seeing a Labour government fades into oblivion.
.
`"
"We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain.
That's a understatement if ever I heard one, strange that its only now you are in opposition that you have suddenly seen the light nothing to do with losing I suppose.
The problem is that these EU economic migrants haven't just taken the jobs that brits don't want to do they are taking all the jobs we are quite capable of doing especially those of us in the 55 plus age group.
The only reason the NHS relies on low paid migrant workers is because at the lower levels they pay crap wages and most employees can only make a decent living with extra hours ( before the comments come I did NHS payroll ).
As for letting Turkey into the EU do you honestly think that we believe you when you say you would restrict the numbers coming into our country. Thats easy for you to say now but after the last debacle when millions came in when you knew that unemployment was much larger than your fudged figures admitted. If you had retained power I doubt we would be reading any of this as you would still be living in your socialist fairy land and we could expect millions of Turks coming into our country while you told us it was good for the economy."
Rubbish - immigration did not lose the Labour Party the election. A confused and faulty line on the economy was (and remains) the problem. Before the 2010 budget, Labour laid out a clear Tory cuts versus Labour investment message. This closed a 14 point Tory lead. Following this years budget and Darling's foolish declaration of "cuts as deep as Thatcher", this positive trend was reversed.
God, I wish his wife were running......
Yes. Good.
"Hm Ed, going for the working class vote are ye? Youre base in the north? Daily mirror readers?
Thars sure how it sounds to me...
""in communities ill-prepared to deal with the reality of globalisation, including the one I represent.""
Not youre fault was it Ed? Just happened, just like the financial crisis? Who couldve known??"
"_AT_Bakersfield 6 Jun 2010, 12:19PM

We did. Years ago. Poverty is hungry kids. Poverty is barefoot kids - as I saw in Ireland in the 70s. Poverty is kids not going to school.
I was born in 1951. My dad worked hard running a small business, and we were on a post-war boomer estate with everyone the same. We were quite well off, but most had no TV, half of us had cars, and none of us went abroad for our holidays.
There is no poverty in the UK - except the poverty of your bankrupt ""ideology"" or bigotry.
Next?"
it wasn't just Eastern Europeans who came in droves. It seems like half of Nigeria has moved here too. When I last looked Nigeria wasn't in Europe, so that excuse doesn't wash. Not as if they are doing skilled jobs either, mostly cleaners or security guards. Filling the jobs that 13 years of Labour education policies have failed to educate the indiginous population for.
Right sentiment, but too late! The damage has been done and I do not believe the present incumbents have the will or desire to 'rock the boat'. No point any party burying heads in the sand, immigration is a nettle that must be grabbed. You will allow the BNP and other facist organisations to gain footholds if you do not listen to what the majority of the British people want.
Too late, blame the opposition party like the Liebour Party always do.
"_AT_ Burgau205
I completely understand what has happened and I realise some policies on spending were incorrect, however If you read the whole statement you will see I actually think this statement and interview with Ed is indeed a bit of spin.
With regards to us being bankrupt, I think that we're close to 800 billion in debt however what assets do we have for these debts? We pretty much own the entire banking sector, this will be sold on and the real debt not just the deficit will be cut, it’s the total that needs to come down. Just like a household if you get in debt you have a few ways to get yourself out of it, tighten your belts or sell some assets, as soon as the crisis is over there will be a sale of the banking sector, this was the plan after all.
Massive cuts to the public sector isn’t just a magic wand that takes all the waste away, think about the human cost and if that doesn’t fire any neurons, think about the extended cost of getting rid of public sector workers on a large scale quickly. Much like the touted selling of gold announcement by Brown, gold is a commodity much the same as labour, already in Warwickshire there has been 1000 redundancies from the public sector, within Warwickshire the public sector pay is generally slightly higher than the private sector. Meaning they are standing on there own feet. 1000 skilled office workers going in a town of less than 100000, will have an effect on the rates of pay offered (the average will be close to minimum wage already) so intern this will increase tax credits and housing benefit, E.g. myself and my partner before the banking crisis pulled in close to £60k now we are on minimum wage and getting 50% of our income from benefits. So instead of being a net contributor we’re net consumers.
Lets face it, the condems have got there sums wrong as labour did. Yes there needs to be the eradication of waste, also there needs to be the cash spent on the right things, the things to get the UK moving."
"Labour considered the working class, exemplified by Mrs Duffy, as bigoted, but they were happy enough to recruit lads from areas of high unemployment into the army to serve as IED fodder in their evil wars.
Outside the ""Country Girl"" pub near Selly Oak yesterday I saw a young soldier in a wheelchair - his right leg had been reduced to a short white bandaged stump, he had arm damage and he was talking in a stange hoarse whisper to his parent, who was pushing the wheelchair, . I guess he was ""luckier"" than the unfortunate lad I saw a couple of weeks previously who had lost both legs.
These were terrible sights
Truly with a track record like Nulab's a Japanese politician would be contemplating an honourable course. Balls otoh wants to be Prime Minister."
"Born in Brighton? Then you can work in London.
Born in Leeds? Then you can work in London.
Born in Paris? Then you can't work in London. Although, of course, if you're a 21 year old French fashion model, you can work in London if the shoot requires it. If the Spanish art director has ordered it.
This is the system we want, really. Unfortunately, no government in the world (apart from North Korea) seems able to give us what we want.
We want the right to move while denying others the same right.
As a Londoner, I have no right to stop someone from Brighton commuting into London each day and taking ""my job"" but I'm meant to be all upset and vote BNP if a bloke from Paris does the exact same thing as the bloke from Brighton."
"ED Balls you are obviously desperate , to now complain about the New Europeans
Biggot! not just that but , sadly you represent failed politicans who overstayed & did not deliver.
You like Dedwood should all be defeated
IF Labour is truly to have a chance otherwise,
we need to talk about a new Third Party !
Maybe the Greens , everything has to start with 1 !
Balls you shoudl liek Laws leave the House as you do not offer New Politics anything , except probable bitterness
David Milliband on Marr today was also a dispointment- and did nto look liek a Future PM--
Tristram Hunt should eb considerd -
not just because he is young 35 but when Labour , might have a part to play,
in 5 years he will be right age 40
T R I STR A M H U N T"
Oh cheers Mr Balls ! Thanks very much for your wise words on this topic ! Any chance you might also recant on the topic of academies ? Here in Northampton, our rapidly improving school , Unity College , is to be turned into an Academy ! Needless to say, the parents , staff and students are dead against this ! So what say you Balls ? Stop David Ross taking over our school ! Keep our headteacher ! keep our uniform ! Keep our name !
"kookboy
Thank you.
Very well considered post.
The problem is that the structural deficit they talk about ignores the funded and unfunded pensions black hole which if included expands the total deficit to between £1.5 to £2.0 trillion.
This black hole is a total commitment which cannot be dodged so the total deficit renders the country bankrupt by any normal definition.
Brown, Balls and Cooper have completely ignored the pensions black hole because they rightly assume that the populous does not understand the dire implications on us and especially on our children..
They are beyond contempt.
I had the good fortune to discuss the egregious pensions grab which destroyed UK final salary schemes with Cameron, albeit briefly, some months ago.
He surprised me by his knowledge of the subject and of the individual figures involved. When I asked him if his policy was to turn this ignominious situation around, his response was that he would certainly do this if it were possible but `there is just no money'.
Here we have Balls touting for business again, and even worse, we have people supporting him who do not have the first understanding of the magnitude of the damage this terrible man has caused.
According to the Spectator (I think it was) the pensions tax grab was Balls' idea.
On hearing of this, one of our most respected pensions specialists, begged him to relent but apparently Balls had tin ears.
He has much to pay for."
Go Enoch!... I mean Ed!
"Perhaps a solution would be that at an early age all citizens of Europe sign a contract promising never to move from their zone and knowing that if they break the contract they will do life in prison.
So, for example, someone born in Hull would be unable to take that job in France or America or Chichester and, indeed, would be legally bound to spend their entire life in Hull.
Unworkable?
You mean that regardless of who we vote for, immigration and emigration, illegal migration and internal movement are going to be a part of life and the human experience along with sex, television, books, computers and alcohol?
It's quite possible that at points in the future there will even be much more movements of peoples than today? Yes, that's actually quite likely.
Just because some humans lived through the second world war doesn't mean they experienced the very pinnacle of human evil. It's quite possible that on a long enough time line, something far, far, far worse will happen.
As with a ""golden age"" - it is likely that human beings have not experienced the""golden age"" yet - it being something that will happen in the future before it too passes into history, for future generations to lament.
Doesn't really matter who you vote for, Tory, Labour or BNP - teenagers will keep having sex. In the future it's quite possible technology will make both STDs and unwanted pregnancies very rare things indeed thus leading to an absolutely massive increase in human sexual activity of all kinds. 400 years from now a new ""golden age"" of sex will be taking place and will last for 290 years before that terrible war kills off much of humanity...
Whatever the future holds for us we know that life will change in countless ways. Doesn't matter who you vote for."
"stealthbong

Why spoil a good argument with a short list.
ID cards, the DNA database, the third runway, stop and search (= banning photography), academy schools...
There are many more. If Labour had shown some humble pie before the election, some willingness to backtrack when, clearly, these policies enjoyed no popular support, they might even still be in office.
It's just whining for Balls to say ""OK, give us another go"".
Labour need a leader willing to tear everything up and start over - much as Blair did with clause 4.
None of the current leadership candidates will do that. So it's goodbye from them..."
"_AT_Burgau205
With regards to the scale of missing funds I do believe that a more radical approach of finding new taxes and items to be taxed will eventually bring about the paying of our structural deficit. As well as the modest amount of growth that I dare say will happen over the next few years as long as the cuts now aren't too savage.
I would like to see some urgency within the creation of the Tobin style tax however I dare say this will wait until after the sale of the banks to maximise the sale value.
All said it truly is an exciting time but one full of pit falls and a great one to debate."
"steve hill
I have an existential fear that when the economies really bite hard, ssay in about four years time, the populous will be so angry that they re-elect Balls and his friends.
In my worst nightmares, (including the one where I can't find my car and my teeth are falling out) this comes about."
"_AT_CorneliusLysergic
For one thing I don't consider being better off than 50s Ireland as progress.
And the UK still has severe problems with poverty:
http://tinyurl.com/346zgz3
1.6 million children in Britain live in housing that is overcrowded, temporary, or run-down. Some live in housing that’s making them ill. Many are missing out on a decent education. Others suffer chronic insecurity, shuffled from place to place in ‘temporary accommodation’.
I'm not saying we aren't better off than many countries. That obviously isn't the case. My point is is that we are not as rich as we are supposed to be and that in actual fact successive UK govts had no right to flood us with immigrants to compete for vital resources when there was still so much poverty here. By this I mean immigrants were a very useful immoral tool with which Govts and their Employer friends could stop any proper redistribution of income in this country. And beyond that there simply was no mandate by the British people for mass immigration. This principle is just as important as anything else involved in this debate."
"It's largely a question of attitude and ethical axioms. Is it the job of an MP to make the world a fairer place or to act to benefit the citizens who elected them? We need MPs who are prepared to stand up for the interests of UK citizens EVEN WHEN it makes the world as a whole a less fair place.
Nationalism has been unfairly demonised when it is at the bedrock of a democratic society. Of course extreme nationalism is bad, but so is extreme socialism or extreme environmentalism or even extreme altruism or extreme anything. Life and politics is about balancing competing interests in a proper manner. MPs are not elected to become rulers of the world but of a country, whose citizens have interests specific to them which must be represented at that national level, and cannot be left unrepresented, or the balance is destroyed. Just as I guess that if the welfare state was entirely abolished communists would rush in to fill the vacuum a complete abandonment of nationalism can only lead to such as the BNP gaining ground, which is what we have seen. The rise of the BNP can be traced to the mindsets and prejudices learnt by politicians in universities in the 70s and 80s that nationalism is some kind of evil in every regard that will whither away in time and is synonymous with concentration camps, and the erroneous decisions such mindsets led to.
One of the greatest problems now is that we have seen so many mainstream politicians say one thing and do another, or do things without telling us their real motives, prominent amongst those things Labour and immigration*, that we cannot really know what it is they are actually selling, and hence whether we want to buy it.
*http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
A faulty immigration policy might have been forgivable, but deceiving your employers, us, about what you were up to, presumably to ""make the world a better place"" and treating us as if we don't really know what's good for us, is unforgivable. Not to get too tin foil / Bilderberg conspiracy, but there really are very rich people out there who want globalism and complete free flow of labour and want to bend national governments to their will. It is the job of elected politicians to protect our interests from their considerable power, and that often involves choosing between what is good for this country and what is good for the world and choosing the former."
"kookboy
Indeed, but I am of the school which believes that tax increases slow growth and exacerbates unemployment.
It was Canada and Australia which both avoided big recessions by cutting taxes and cutting public expenditure.
Brown and his bunch of chancers could not do this because they were engulfed in a cloud of discredited socialist dogma, even though they stopped using the S word.
Cameron believes in low taxes and low public expenditure but I expect to see higher VAT since to an extent this tax, like IHT is voluntary
we will also see higher rates of inflation for a time I fear and all governments hate inflation."
"I admit it... I haven't read any further than this line.
Agencies, many of them based in Ireland but allegedly Polish in origin, were on standby waiting for the UK's policy to immigrant workers regarding the EU's Eastern European members.
They were aware that several member states intended to protect local economies by ensuring that jobs had to be advertised prominently at the appropriate employment agency for the going rate.
If there were no takers for the position, then any immigrant worker had to be paid the going rate and properly housed.... not on site or adjacent sites.
Oddly enough, where these measures were enforced, they did not see pockets of mass immigration.
These EU guidelines were not implemented here in the UK.
It is worth remembering that many of these immigrant workers were exploited and once deductions were removed from their pay, they found themselves working 10 hrs a day on a 6 day week for just over 2 an hour. There was of course no appropriate agency in the UK to deal with this exploitation even if those they were contracted to had close ties with the local, district and county councils.
From were I stood, the governments' failure wasn't the immigration policy, regardless of ""no more boom and bust"" it was the legacy of several decades of the boom and bust mentality and a trickle down approach.
It was the lack of investment in skills, the failure to protect local jobs and a decent wage when skills or training were available.
There is no single government agency to defend the basic rights of exploited immigrants working in this country and with the Workfare (New Labour policy) coming into its own, this is likely to remain the case.
Personally, I don't see New Labour's failure to control the flood of cheap skills into the labour market as lack of joined up thinking... rather I see it as their prelude to a liberalised, devalued wage-wedge."
Told yu fucking so
"Having written his piece I don't imagine Mr Balls will look at this thread for a second. He is practising (as career politicians do) getting the emotional mood and tone right for speeches he might make in his campaign.
The thread proves 1 point more than any other. If you say/write anything that is even vaguely critical about the policy of ongoing mass immigration then middle class people willl assume you are an ingrained racist and some will actually vocalise with varying degrees of antipathy ranging from mild distaste to furious abuse. This is a class phenomenon. Poorer Brits are more inclined to listen although those who hang on to the old internationalist constellation of 'Left' policies cannot allow themselves to even hear such stuff.
Mr Balls is practising talking to 'his people'. Good luck to him. The immigration topic needs to be raised constantly at every level if it is to become a fit topic for calm debate, especially amongst opinion formers.
It is quite possible that the EU will collapse. Nobody knows. It was blazingly obvious that it expanded too quickly at American and Big Business prompting. The other big issue (apart from immigration) for Labour is to accept and promote PR. It's fairer, everyone gets a say and what is more everyone can feel that their vote has counted in some way. Mr Balls is not likely to win his contest but the more mainstream politicians who recognise the opposition to mass immigration the better."
"All that Balls is now suggesting is restricting migrants from Romania and Bulgaria, who are very few anyway. It will make no practical difference to the wages of the low-paid, so he is simply pandering to the BNP vote.
But I'd like to go back to the euro debate, because it seems to be assumed without question that the UK was right to stay out of the single currency. What nobody seems to realise is that, if the UK had joined, it would have been the second-biggest economy in the euro area, with a major influence on ECB policy. Not just interest rates but, more important in view of the current crisis, on the enforcement of the rules which should have prevented the lax policies of Greece and other countries. In other words, if the UK had joined, the current crisis in the eurozone would have been much less likely to happen."
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"_AT_tomedinburgh

and is therefore, in and of itself, racist."
"low skills are not the most important criteria for am immigrant - low aspirations are.
Which group attended night classes, became successfully employed - and as an absolute decider - whose children gained the highest qualifications.
Studies should easily show what immigrants end up a positive - and policy should be driven by that."
"Ed... your party had over 13 years to prove it wasn't just another middle class right wing party.
Your party punished the unemployed and drove wages down to suit your city friends.
Game over. Hurry up and die Labour."
EvaWitt Thanks :) Wish the site had an edit function - wrote it with such speed, bit embarrassed at some of the typos.
Why are we demonizing Eastern Europeans they have right to be here? What about the Immigrant from outside the EU. Some of the immigrant came here to make their life safe and progressive, but in the process our lives have been blighted by very high crime rate, murder etc. Why can’t we send those criminal element back, now even some refugees and asylum seekers has joined the foray. No immigrants’, refugees, asylum seekers should be entiled to any benefit or nationality till they have lived in this country legally for more then 10 years?
I realise that my views are not very common with other CiF contributers but it does warm the cockles to know that the overwhelming majority of repsonses on this thread are anti Mr Balls.
"The problem is that people are seeing immigrants as the problem with housing and facilities and low wages.
Yet it is Labour's neglect of social housing and merry encouragement of house prices spiralling out of control that is at fault. It is Labour's backing of agency middlemen taking a fat cut of workers salaries, and Labour's delay in fixing local authority grants to population increases that are the cause of the problems.
And Ball's has shown no sign whatsoever of realizing that it was those policies, and not immigration, that have been creating the problems."
I hadn't noticed most problems in England were caused by immigrants from the East of Europe.I stupidly thought they were caused by other immigrants!
I won't comment on the immigration issue directly, but as regards the test for immigrants to speak English: how about first making sure first that the English speak it correctly? How often, for instance, have all of us seen the word "Their" (as in belonging to them) spelled as "There" and vice versa? I have even seen this from writers in computer and astronomical magazines!!
I agree! And they should all be deported well within the 10 year period, if they have nothing to offer us, but financial liabilities.
"_AT_thfc123

Though some of us are anti-Balls because he speaks too much bollocks, some of us are anti-Balls because he doesn't speak enough bollocks.
_AT_jalte

You stupidly think ""most problems in England"" are caused by immigrants.
""Most"" problems - really?
Sure there are issues, but blaming immigrants for everything isn't going to address the real issues is it?"
"Woo, populism. That'll get some support for a week or so. Like someone said, maybe you should have mentioned paedophiles, or how the eatern Europeans are cooking Her Maj's swans or something to really seal the deal.

That's kinda backward though, what you're essentially saying, to slice it another way, is that it's ok for Brits to move abroad in search of higher wages, but it's not ok for people from countries with a lower average wage to do the same thing? I know we like to think of ourselves as some special bastion of enlightenment, but from the outside looking in it just seems like a mixture of racism and belief in the inherent superiority of the great mythical indigenous British population.
Please, just go away. If you win on this platform I shall be asking for my party membership money back."
"How the high and mighty chane their colours to suit.
Has the man no shame he was one of those who allowed immigration to get out of control, now when it suits him he changes his opinion to suit.
With a bit of luck we hopefully will see the last of him when the leadership election finishes.
The man is a complete p***"
"I've just come back from holiday in Crete - the resort of Malia to be precise.
Almost all the locals speak English and there are British people working all over the village. The young Brits are holiday reps, tour guides, restaurant staff and shop assistants. Some older British people also live in work in the area. The British influence on the village was so strong that all of the restaurants on the main strip offered diners an English breakfast and you could watch only Fools and Horses on big screens all over the place.
Now, it might be that in Brussels, Paris or Munich, most British immigrants are working in higher-paid jobs. I honestly don't know. However, in Malia, most British immigrants were doing the jobs that Greek youth could have done quite easily. The influence of tourism on the economy of Malia and the benefits that British tourists bring cannot be understated but please let's put paid to this ridiculous notion that only Eastern Europeans or people from other countries travel to the UK for work. There are plenty of people moving in the opposite direction and wherever they go and work, they take local people's jobs."
Try and get benefits if you have been living abroad. You'll find them routinely refused. You can't pop over from another EU country and just claim benefits.
"A special tax should be levied on all middle class smug guardian types to pay for all the benefits given to immigrants.
Even those that do work, do low paid jobs. Don't try to tell me that such wages give them enough money to get accommodation and raise a family. We the tax payer have been paying for their upkeep.
Those who caused the mess should pay. Plus being so right thinking and moral, they don't believe in private property, so they won't mind losing theirs."
"Well there was a time when the territory now known as Turkey was firmly within the Mediterranean mainstream and Constantinople (as the city was then known) was the Rome of the East (as the capital of the Greek Empire). The Turks may originate from Northern and Central Asia, but then the Slavs, the Celts and the Germans also originate from areas of Asia ranging from the Urals to the Middle East. The original human population of Europe was the Neanderthals. Any population with an Indo-European language developed it while they lived within a broad arc stretching from Quetta to Tashkent and Tehran.
It's a good idea to know something about the subject before you post. Failing that, consult the University of Wikipedia or better still, read a book."
When you see the NHS begin to contract, local authority social services go into decline, the winter fuel allowance abolished and the retirement age begin to approach 75 you'll see that whoever is in power the problem you refer to will soon be a problem no more.
"Joinupsignin
Why can you not say in The Guardian that excessive immigration from asian is wrong for Britain.
Its not racist, its an opinion, shared by a great many people who are getting angry that in this country and on this site people cannot express this political view.
Evidently you can express your view on this site regardless of how ignorant or ineloquent or right wing you or they are.
Asian: 1. of or relating to Asia or to any of its peoples or languages 2. A native or inhabitant of Asia or a descendant of one.
Asia: The largest of the continents, bordering on the Arctic Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the Indian Ocean and the Meditaranean and red seas in the west...
Be careful about making one of those 'shouldn't be here if they can't speak the language' schpeels. BNP might get in and stick you on the first boat back to Asian."
"And so speaks Mr Know it all.
But you seem to have left out that even in Early Roman times the East was considered to be different from the West. The men were considered to be effeminate unlike the hardy boys in the West.
In any case there were strong cultural ties between east and west when the Romans and Greeks were in charge of what is now Turkey. But then the same could be said about Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Arabia. I suppose they are part of Europe too, according to your bien pensant logic?"
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"Maggie was wrong on so many things, but she once said, ""The problem with socialists is that they eventually run out of other people's money"". You dropped the socialism, proclaimed the end of boom and bust and STILL ran out of taxpayers' money. That's your greatest achievement.
The rapidly looming cutbacks, mounting unemployment, reductions in benefits and destruction of our educational institutions aren't just the fault of the Tories, or even the Tories and Libdems- if they were they would happen in at least 2-3 years, not right now. So should we extend your advice to the whole of Europe? Would they accept it?"
"A 2007 article from the Independent* by Jack Dromey:
* http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/jack-dromey-immigration-has-made-britain-a-better-place-400113.html


* http://www.opsi.gov.uk/sr/sr2010/nisr_20100162_en_1
** http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6734153.ece
*** http://www.freelancesupermarket.com/news/2010/5/24/recruiters-to-discuss-agency-workers-regulations.aspx"
"There were 2 factors that made me realise I could no longer support Labour.
1. Ministers expected 13,000 east Europeans would come to the UK per year. I knew that was wrong. Around 1,000,000 have come. Absurdly bad judgement.
2. Eighty per cent of new jobs in the UK since 1997 have gone to foreign workers, as John Humphreys pointed out to me one morning.
I find these numbers frightening. A significant part of my head supports UKIP."
"New Labour, that useless populist blob of soundbites and Murdoch fags, appears to have decided that they lost the election because they weren't tough enough on immigrants/asylums seekers and benefit cliamants. This despite their utilisation of latter-day concentration camps and the iniquitous Welfare Reform Bill.
The day these twats return to power will be a day too early."
"Scanning through the comments I see a sprinkling of ""aging population"" labor shortage"" type arguments. These were thrown around freely a few years ago to justify importing labor -- ""do the jobs that xxx are not prepared to do"", that sort of thing.
You can't talk about ""aging population"" and ""raising retirement age"" in the same breath.
I think the key to this was accidentally mentioned by another poster who said that ""you can't allow free immigration to a country with extensive social benefits from countries where there are none"" or words to that effect. Stands to reason, you'll overload the system - unless your real plan is to destroy the social benefits, in which case a crisis brought on by overload and insolvency is just what you need. (..and judging from your government's statements, just what you're going to get)."
"FFS CiF posters are you all as thick as Ed Balls seems to be.
It's got nothing to so with Labour, new or otherwise, Ed Balls, Colemanballs, Footballs or Loadaballs how many Poles etc come into the UK to work. They are allowed to because we -- and they -- are in the EU. If you wanna introduce quotas on emplyoees coming into the UK then we're gonna have to leave the EU in order to do so. It's the (EU) law, stupid!"
"Turkey should NOT join the EU until they get rid of their law against 'insulting Turkishness' which means that you get thrown in prison for mentioning the Armenian Genocide, which they should also recognise before they are allowed in. In addition to other human rights abuses in that country.
But then I also abhore the fact that Latvia and Estonia were allowed in, considering their treatment of ethnic Russians living there, or the Czech Republic, as Romany people from there have been able to successfully claim asylum in Canada - how can a country in the EU be a place that refugees need to flee from?"
"Here's a little fact that xenophobes such as Mr Balls deliberately ignore: EU citizens from Central/Eastern Europe are NOT ""immigrants"". As EU citizens they are entitled to live anywhere they want in the EU, just as Brits. Yes, there are restrictions for Romanians and Bulgarians, but that has to do purely with pandering to the Daily Mail crowd rather than with any serious economic reasons; the restrictions only favor undeclared work and tax evasion.
Now Mr Balls wants to make the discrimination against Romanians and Bulgarians permanent, and has the brazenness to call it an ""open and fair world"". His ""open and fair' world involves, as he explicitly put it, free movement of capital but not of labour, and a two-tier EU where Eastern Europeans would have second-class status.
It's sad that extreme chauvinism has crossed over from BNP/UKIP to the British mainstream, and that the Guardian would host such a piece of xenophobic trash. It seems that Eastern Europeans have become the perfect target for discrimination, scapegoating and racist hysteria in Western Europe. After all, they can't vote, they don't riot or blow themselves up if faced with harassment or discrimination, and they're technically ""white"", so xenophobes can always say ""they're white, so I'm not racist"", plus it's socially acceptable for non-white Brits to express racist sentiments against Eastern Europeans (as evidenced by some, thankfully isolated, comments here)."
Auf Wiedersehen, pet! anyone? Was based on fact you know: Brits doing low-paid labouring jobs in another EU country
A few went. I don't think it was 900,000.
"Bien pensant? Have you ever read what I used to write on the subject of fundamentalist Islam and jihadism and more recently, on the difficulties that poorly- regulated multiculturalism presents to all of us? You call me ""Mr Know it all"" then agree with my point in the sentence beginning ""In any case"". I don't argue that the Turks themselves are European as much as that the Europeans come from Asia (and ultimately, from Africa)- just a different area than the Turks. We didn't spring forth one day from the loins of Japheth as the Bible would have you believe.
Iraq and Arabia have always been more remote from Europe than ""Asia Minor"", Islam or no Islam, Byzantine Empire or not. That's because of geography. As for Syria, for obvious reasons such as its remoteness, desert location and proximity to Mesopotamia, it wasn't Hellenized to the same extent as Asia Minor. Mesopotamia was the centre of an empire in its time as great as Persia or the Moguls. The Greeks considered the Romans squabbling barbarians, while the Romans envied the Greeks for their cultural advancement and book learning. The Romans were also much keener on plain facts than understanding the whole of the subject and their Emperors were mostly perverts, proto-Hitlers or far more interested in being generals than rulers."
"The idiocy of this piece by Balls, is only matched by the idiocy as demonstrated by a large amount of posters.
Its pretty clear going by the comments most voted for, that the majority of CIF posters possess the 'i'm alright jack' mentality, akin to that of Dailey Mail readers. The joys of hipocrisy.
It's rather ironic that the position taken by most posters, is just as Neo-con as the policies as pursued by our former New Labour Government.
When Brown said 'British jobs for British workers', what he really should have said was 'Middle Class jobs for Middle Class workers'. This is the fact of the matter.
Given the Tories plans for education, most posters can sleep happily in the knowledge that their professions will remain as socially exclusive as ever. Everyone else can continue in their enforced economic race to the bottom."
Shame you didn't have this revelation in government. Funny that.
Perhaps some of the so called 'progressives' on here can explain exactly why they believe controlling immigration is a bad thing? I just cannot understand how global or domestic 'progress' is served by shipping millions of people across the world
bifacedog, as I said earlier, EU citizens are not "immigrants". I guess this needs to be repeated over and over again.
"_AT_northerner ""workforce (what a fantastic Derby winner, by the way!) ""
Absolut, gammle gosse!
Sorry about the Swedish - as it's an immigration thread, I thought I'd strike first and avoid the ""kleine Englander"" taunt."
"Yeah, British jobs for British people... kick those cherry pickers, asparagus and potatoe gatheres and bring back the good auld Brit oxbridge grad to do those seek after jobs.
Actually i understand any polish or chinese burger patty fliping immigrant better then any cockey ladden eastsider.
and i don t mind my plumber to be incapable or late as long he speaks at least scouse in its purest beautyful fashion"
"Really disappointing to see Labour lurch further to the right. Does Balls really think if they had been more like the Tories they’d have won? Their supporters would not have deserted them if they had had the Balls to stand by their principles and said ‘immigration benefits Britain’
Labour could be such a force if they just weren’t so spineless"
I'm confused. When America tries to control the decades long flood of unskilled immigrants into its country its racism incarnate. However, when the British do it, its some kind of appropriate response to ensure the protection of Britain's most vulnerable citizens. How much larger is the EU's population in comparison to the USA? How much larger is the population of Mexico in comparison to the members of the EU? Answer: only Deutschland has a larger population than Mexico's. Putting Mexico aside and its positional privilege, what about the rest of the planet's countries that dump their populations on the USA? Why does the USA have more Jamaican illegal immigrants than Britain has legal ones? It's your frickin' colony. Bullocks, Mr. Balls. This is nothing but an attempt to ensure that Britain never becomes as dark as America is today.
"Awful ignorance for somebody aiming at leading to the Labour Party.
1) 'next year when Germany and France lift their restrictions': France has lifted them in 2008! Only Austria and Germany still apply restrictions, until the deadline of next year - but instead of avoiding immigration, they have been flooded by bogus self-employed and posted workers from eastern european companies - something which is socially much more disruptive than legal, regular immigration.
2) WHere's the evidence for negative effects on wages or living conditions? Could you please mention one, at least one figure or study??? Immigrants (85% of whom are young, fit and in employment) from eastern europe pay in in tax much more then they take out in benefits or any public service.
3) How about policies? the only way to prevent negative effects in wages is strengthening collective bargaining, worker rights, and tackling dodgy work agencies. Don't blame the migrants for the policy failures of New Labour.
Really depressing."
"Yes - you messed it up! Under Labour, thousands were deported to their deaths. Children were imprisoned. Hundreds of thousands worked for a pittance. Above all you failed to explain and defend. You played to the gallery and failed to harness the massive amount of goodwill there is in the country. You failed to engage those who were trapped in the benefit system and would not work thereby creating opportunities for others to work. You wanted the cheap labour and profited from it but were not willing to shoulder your responsibilities for the advantages.
If it was such a mistake for Eastern Europeans to come why are you not shouting about Spanish, Irish, Portuguese and Greek immigration which is happening now as a result of the crisis in the Euro-zone?
You need to face up to one basic fact. Someone coming here from an EU state is a citizen exerting their right not a migrant. That means the Brits in France and Spain in retirement and those making a packet in the German construction industry are also Citizens exerting their rights. Why don't you ever say that Brits abroad send more back in remittances than migrants working in the UK.
Wake up and be honest about immigration and don't slide further into your intellectual bunker on this subject."
"_AT_Bakersfield 6 Jun 2010, 2:54PM
Absolutley agree on the immigration side. On poverty, I believe we have all we need in thic country for no family to be ""poor"" as you note above; where it does happen is down to crap local services &/or families who don't give a fuck.
My ex worked in the DWP in Bristol, serving Southmead & Lawrence Weston; when she left, the third generation in familes that had not, would not, COULD not work were just signing on.
Poor by choice. Even then, all those you mention above will have TVs, and often a car.
I rest by what I stated. And what a damning condemnation of Labour the figure you note is."
"Whomever you were responding to SZ, I suspect that they either don't know, don't care or have chosen to ignore the localised immigration policies* that are specifically constructed and applied to those at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale while the complex problems regarding the exploitation of immigration as a source of cheap labour and the impact on the economy, remain unattended.
* http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/ewco/studies/tn0807038s/de0807039q.htm"
"If I wanted a Tory policy of dog-whistles on immigration and petty-nationalist grandstanding on Europe, I would vote Tory.
I don't vote Tory."
"stevejones

Deliberate policy. Personal debt which was ramped up to an extraordinary extent now exceeds GDP, the overwhelming majority of that personal debt relates to mortgage loan.
Without a severe housing shortage(made worse by immigration) then how could Nulab's grisly spiv mates in the City have scammed the population as comprehensively as they did?
In any event, as Cleggie said the other day, Nulab's belated ""promises"" made when they came under pressure over housing were made with no budgets attached; completely worthless"
"Lets see you (Ed Balls) drive a bus, pick asparagus, or wipe an elderly persons arse for a living!
How would you like it if these were the only kinds of jobs available to you, just as they are to Eastern Europeans?"
Yeah but Ed, those East european birds are well fit - I for one welome them with open arms.
"ariksilverman

If it means having to put up with the 'expats' (why cant the call themselves what they are, immigrants) again this would be a bad idea. I'd much rather have the Poles living near me than those cretins."
"hugsandpuppies
6 Jun 2010, 5:51PM

They're ok, but they've got flat bums though!
(the majority anyway)"
"_AT_ Burgau205
Thanks for the patronizing response, but unless you can refute what Ros Altmann says here, don't bother."
"I recently checked the housing list of people applying for housing or a transfer.
Every flat or house vacant had at least 300 applicants.
So housing shortage is back as critical as it was in the 80's.
Then we have approx 2.5 million unemployed.
So how can we encourage mass immigration with no jobs or homes to offer?"
"only ... BNP supporters ...deny that our ...IT industries depend on immigration" ... .... *BALLS* !!!!!! There are thousands of British comp-sci grads who are out of work because they have been displaced by cheap "onshorers" from India, and the primary reason to bring in boatloads of onshorers is to subvert British employment law! This is ILLEGAL, widely recognized by anyone in IT, and has nothing to do with the BNP. Recently, British comp-sci grads were dead last in their chances of finding a decent job upon graduation. In technical skills, our grads are the best anywhere - but they are replaced by onshorers simply to illegally get around U.K. employment law.
"Hell's Teeth. This sort of racism got people thrown out of the Labour Party once upon a time, not it's a platform to stand as leader.
Never been happier to not be a member these days."
"_AT_Chadwick88

The last acceptable form of bigotry?
You could at least make a polite effort to conceal your irrational hatred by sticking the word some in front of the word Islamic. Trust me, that's the way to tap into the petty bourgeois support base your ilk so desperately crave - they prefer there racism sugar-coated a little."
"true that Germany didn t lift their ban just now but they got flodded by immigrants way earlier then britain an d there even is a dishonoured former german advocat which resides now in poland in order to hand out passports to polish folks.
If u re able to proof u re of German ancestry (most of the polish in western poland are anyways since this part was german/prussian till after war) u re entitled to get a german passport and move to germany take up work without a word german and gain access to social welfare. Nice thing me thinks"
"LinearBandKeramik
6 Jun 2010, 6:41PM

I wouldn't say it was bigotry, as the first two points are pretty much fact.
As for the point about 'participating in the economy', well that is debatable, as simply by being here, it's impossible not to be interlocked with the economy."
"I would really like Balls to explain how a peripheral islet off the shores of Europe could possibly construed in anyone's mind as ""heart of Europe"".
If Britain were really to be its heart, Europe -- which stretches all the way to Kazakhstan -- would have to include Canada all the way to Toronto at the very least."
"According to a report from the UCL in March 2007 ""Immigration to the UK has made a positive contribution to the average wage increase experienced by non-immigrant workers"", which is pretty brilliant. Prof. Christian Dustmann of UCL’s Department of Economics said: “Economic theory shows us that immigration can provide a net boost to wages if there is a difference in the skills offered by native and immigrant workers."" So far, so good. A very positive report. But, oh dear, what's this ""However, across the whole spectrum of wages it is impossible for everybody to benefit. Some workers will see a gain, others a loss.” Oh, shit. The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay
Maybe those unskilled, low-paid workers could form a political party to campaign for their rights. As they are engaged in manual labour they could call it the...erm. What should we call this party?
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration"
Shame on you, blaming them foreigners for all our problems. Lazy, lazy, lazy, lzy bigot. If you're elected labour leader, I absolutely will not be voting labour, I am sick of hearing about immigration, and was relieved that it didn't seem to be a big election issue. Go away.
"Was it not a deliberate policy to flood our country with immigrants for future vote bank?
Have you addressed the issue about non EEC immigration? You were part of a government which knew perfectly well as far back as 2003 that the so called Highly Skilled Migrants were carrying out jobs such as mini cab drivers, filling shelfs in Tesco, Sainsburys etc.Wroking in factories. Is this saying something for education policies of successive governments (of both colours) that we as a country could not produce individuals who could fill sheves in Tescos, drive minicabs and work on assesmbly lines. Is this your definition of 'higly skilled'?
Ah your government has also know that 'students' comer over to study courses in colleges that are not equiped to teach, even if these 'colleges' could teach the students cannot understand or speak English. In which langiage were the stidents being thaught? The pervious government has openly admitted that 55 year old grand mothers have been granted student visas to study''MBA'!
One could go on and on! Enough said"
I have been of the opinion for years that it is utterly wrong to allow people to stream into Britain unchecked - in other countries such as Switzerland, foreigners if unskilled used to only be able to apply for short term work permits and those who did have a skill got longer term permits but.... these people had to abide by the law of the land. In Britain it seems that the incomers do not need to change - in fact the British are more like the second class citizens. I doubt whether the top 5% are affected by the mass influx, they are not in the same dog fight for jobs and accommodation. I am utterly sick and tired of going to my local supermarket and hearing more Eastern European tongues than Engllish, I find it sad that workers are being imported to work in these supermarkets (surely we have enough home grown candidates), I am fed up of hearing these foreigners say our health service here is free (maybe I have just imagined paying into it for donkeys years) and I will be eternally grateful to whoever does something to get Britain British again.
"Good evening Ladies, Gentlemen,
Pardon my french, but Balls should go get nuttered to a vet when speaking like that about Europeans. White East Europeans, just in case he didn't get it.
Happy nuttering, Balls dude."
"Indeed...my own nightmares. Some were saying that Labour were trying so desperately to lose the election this was the probable cause. When the polls kept them pegged at 30% no matter what shit they came up with they had to dig deep...bigotgate etc.

Despite what she writes there perhaps you'd like to read more of her comments on the link below where she specifiaclly states that before 1997 the UK's pension schemes were in a good state and the envy of others. I remember the late 90s saying to friends that the Euros wanted our pensions (The UK funds were greater than most of the rest of Europe's PUT TOGETHER)
http://www.rosaltmann.com/ssp_end_of_final_salary_jan09.htm"
"""Remembering Evan Davies' programme for the BBC, 'The day the immigrants left' threw up a vivid picture of a workshy British workforce unwilling to do the jobs the immigrants were doing""
A work of pure fiction .Just what you would expect from the BBC."
In the last census my town had a population i the 18000 mark. I read a document just last week by the local east riding of yorks council sayig that we now have 3000 migrants living i this town. How are we expected to cope with schools, houses, jobs hospitals, dentists etc with this amount of non english speaking people (I have to be careful what I say). Now Balls tells us that labour has been wrong to allow in so many. - I think I have just proved it. Whatever will happen when turkey joins the EU - I think it will be a case of God help us all.
"_AT_therealrodhull

Chadwick88 is making his claim about Islamic immigrants without nuance or qualification. I agree that some Islamic immigrants do not respect the culture of the UK and do not wish to integrate - but that is not what Chadwick88 said. He/she/it made it clear that all Islamic immigrants should be tarred with the same brush. That is the very definition of bigotry."
"_AT_shirleyr

Earthquakes, hurricanes, nuclear disasters - and then I fully expect the sky will fall in on top of us."
"Ed Balls
I have news for you. What matters to the UK electorate is growth per capita and how it is shared rather than total growth. However, corporations are only interested in having more customers and hence bigger profits. The rest are left with lower wages and bigger traffic jams.
You come off as a corporate lackey."
Why now Ed, why not when you wee in power? You've made a balls of that!
"jonathb - you are absolutely correct. The IT industry in this country is being decimated. Companies are either outsourcing work to the Indian sub-continent or else they are bringing in cheap ""onshorers"" as you state.
Companies over here go into partnership with companies in India, and what happens next? Surprise surprise - British workers (of all colours/ethnic origins) and ALL skill levels are made redundant whilst all 'vacancies' are filled by internal company transfers using the staff from the sub-continent.
These company transfers never work the other way around. Funny that.
Are (or were) these companies in any danger of going under? Making losses? Not on your Nelly. Get rid of 70% of British staff, replace them with cheaper drones and watch the profits rise even higher. That is the attitude of these companies. The remaining Brit workers are left to deal with the problems that the drones cannot cope with - i.e. anything that requires lateral thinking and not following a script.
The fact that key members of Labour, even now do not 'get' this is an absolute joke. They should have stopped wasting money on 'focus' groups and instead of sticking to fancy dinners with company directors, they should have met workers at ALL levels and also gone round knocking on a few doors."
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Appalling stuff. Can't believe that Balls has the ignorance to produce such visceral bear-baiting populism. Scapegoating unfortunates from Eastern Europe who lived under repressive regimes in near intolerable conditions for this nation's ills? What total balls. Playing on prejudice and primitive fears rather than trying to explain the background and present the matter ethically is clearly too much for Ed. Is there really a place in Commons for someone with these views? What will be in the next Labour manifesto? Mosley's racist drivel presented as a profound social analysis?
"I read some of the above in disbelief. Ed Balls has had it as far as I'm concerned.
I am fed up of hearing these foreigners say our health service here is free
Aha.i>
Personally, I am extremely thankful to the surgeon who operated on my appendix (in an NHS hospital) ..and who happened to be from Eastern Europe."
"tomedinburgh
6 Jun 2010, 1:21AM
""You don't hear many stories about crime ridden Polish ghettos,""
I can tell you a few and direct you to the problem."
"_AT_LtKilgore

What is ironic about this BBC programme and a lot of the ""leftwing"" rhetoric on this forum is that the white working-class of this country do not have the highest unemployment or benefit dependency rates (or levels of criminality). One community has ~50% economic activity for instance, but they get no stick at all. Presumably they are the deserving poor unlike us.
Ed Balls is full of it. He is just after votes. The issue is not one of race, it is one of the impact of large scale immigration over short time scales on competition for jobs and services.
As for the Poles, yes many are hard working, but a fair few are scroungers as well so stop with the over generalisations. My sister works for the Benefits Agency and she deals with lots of benefit applications from Poles. She told me only today that a favourite wheeze is to bring over partners from Poland just in time to have the baby here and then claim £500 in handouts."
"RE ""In retrospect, Britain should not have rejected transitional controls on migration from the first wave of new EU member states in 2004, which we were legally entitled to impose. As the GMB's Paul Kenny and others have pointed out, the failure of our government to get agreement to implement the agency workers directive made matters worse.""
I fail to see what is racist about this statement. If it is racist then it means that all EU countries (all but the UK, Ireland and one other) who imposed transitional controls are racist. It is the first time I have seen any Labour politician admit that failure to implement the agency workers directive made matters worse. It surely did, as I know hundreds, if not thousands, of them plus dozens of agencies and we all agree.
Another failure making matters worse was that of not adopting the European age discrimination directive.
These three failures put millions, not thousands, out of work permanently. I think if the writer were racist - as the leftwing fanatics posting here assert - he would be saying that Labour should have treated racial discrimination the same way it treated age discrimination.
Yet another failure was that of allowing IT workers inter company transfers. They are contract workers here and thousands are out of work so why do we need to accept more.
However, I don't think Ed Balls is in any position to advise the current government. I am not expecting much from the Tories because they have always favoured immigration to keep labour costs low. Furthermore, the Poles only work for a pittance here (and put people out of work) because their wages went a long way in Poland where they remitted them, and they also collected benefits. I have worked for 40 years, paying high taxation, but have never been eligible for any benefits. That maybe one area where the Tories will discourage immigration from the EU, by cutting these benefits and not before time."
"_AT_stewd
And what is the weekly rate for a UK contractor with a good knowledge of RPG IV? Too much. Good competent coders are in short supply at reasonable rates, and that is the main reason why companies in financial services are heading to Bangalore; or at a pinch Russia if middleware fro routers, etc is required."
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If East Europeans think immigration is so cool why don't they open their labour markets to the poorer countries to the East, say Turkey for instance?
"The influx is not surprising, given that big business, which is the single most powerful economic force driving decisions around immigration, feels like it's left to 'pick up the pieces' because of the inadequate education of employees.
Not my words, but Sir Terry Leahy's (Tesco's CEO):
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/tesco-boss-school-standards-too-low-1802231.html"
"They do. Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic are full of Ukrainians doing the jobs that the locals don't want.
Now, I wonder who takes all the crappy jobs in Ukraine."
Bonkers. All politicians are bonkers.
"_AT_Dunnyboy

Thanks for the info. My head hurts. There must be a country at the end of the chain somewhere with shit loads of unpleasant jobs going begging but no ""hard working immigrants"" to come and do them - North Korea maybe?"
"Thank you for making my choice in the upcoming Labour leadership ballot so much easier. With one more candidate eliminated from my shortlist, it should soon not be too difficult to find the candidate who least offends my Labour values.
As one of those immigrants from the EU who is not undercutting wages but instead highly-qualified and earning a decent salary in a shortage profession in the public sector, I can see someone who is talking out of his backside when I come across them.
Ironically, Balls and his department were my boss until recently. He made some sound decisions at the time but without the help and briefings from civil servants he seems to have taken leave of his senses."
According to his recent interview Ed Balls: 'Tony and Gordon never found a way to bring it together' he thought you reached Swindon from London via Euston, not Paddington. I think we can assume geography is not his specialist subject; now what that subject could be elludes me.
"_AT_Emma2001

If you believe that, you're a bigger fool than i thought."
"Just about right robi. That's it really, isn't it?
Don't get me wrong I am not against being part of the European Union but the idea that we have all prospered may have happened to you - along with the money you made from charging all of us with your expenses - but I have see little prosperity. My salary is lower now in real terms than it was ten years ago.
Now I wish you would just go away as I find your bullish attitude and lies and deceit far too much to bear."
"hoffwoff:
Your post: ""As one of those immigrants from the EU who is not undercutting wages but instead highly-qualified and earning a decent salary in a shortage profession in the public sector,....""
Why not tell us what the profession is because I did not see anybody fitting that category when I worked in the public sector. Most employees I saw had no specific training or profession (although they might have been educated) and just dreamt up crackpot ideas for spending taxpayers' money. Furthermore, I'm afraid payments out of taxes don't count."
The Labour Party used to stand for internationalism. It has now degenerated into "British jobs for British workers". I'm almost tempted to support Dianne Abbott, who at least seems to be standing out against this trend.
"_AT_alanpav
Suggest you google Dianne Abbott and Finnish nurses.
I want a labour party that prioritises the people who set it up and still fund it, via the trade unions. Internationalism can do one."
"So weak.
So what?"
"I think it is entirely foolish to think we will win back our freedoms from any of the parties in Parliament.
Conservative, Liberal, and Labour are all right wing middle class parties and they really don't give a shit what happens as long as they all get our votes.
The ship is sinking and Parliament is just rearranging the deckchairs to suit themselves."
"ilovemisty:
""If East Europeans think immigration is so cool why don't they open their labour markets to the poorer countries to the East, say Turkey for instance?""
That's beside the point. Turkey is not in the EU. Immigration is one thing, labor mobility within the EU is an altogether different issue. What Balls is essentially saying is that Eastern Europeans should be permanently relegated to second-class EU citizenship status. He wants one set of rules for the Brits and other Western Europeans, and an altogether different set of rules for Eastern Europeans. If that's not crazy and racist, I don't know what is.
What some ""working class"" Brits fail to understand is that non-British workers (both immigrants and Eastern European workers, again, different categories) put a lot more into the British welfare state than get out of. The average BNP voter enjoys benefits subsidized by Polish, Lithuanian or Romanian workers, oh the irony."
"Ed ... If your exclusive private school education taught you to speak your mind, as with Iraq, why did you not speak out? You can't retrofit excuses and policy positions.
I'm sure you are pro-Europe, it is where you all make your money nowadays.
And if you really believe it is a platform for free trade, get on and persuade the bastards to end agricultural subsidies which prevent the 3rd world from competing.
This is very conveniently written. You sound like you've been working closely with Campbell. I think the decent people left in your party want a change of course.
I pray to God we never have a Prime Minister who won't pay for a poppy out of his own richly lined pocket."
"""that has to do purely with pandering to the Daily Mail crowd""
It's amazing -- people keep accusing him of things like this, but lets be honest here, if he was pandering, we'd have reintroduced hanging and been allowed to throw away anything we wanted without someone checking it. I really don't see the vast right-wing agenda happening. I see a massive state that measures your car and taxes you on exactly how many inches long it is, and who writes tax rules that say things like ""we won't tell you if you fit in this category, but if you decide you do, you owe us more tax and if we decide later you did then you'll owe us tax AND fines so you'll just have to guess correctly"".
If you think this was pandering to right wing views, then you probably have to understand that he's also as close to your socialist views as he's ever likely to get as well...."
"_AT_Crimethink

Yes it is the point. East Europeans are in favour of immigration because they are immigrants to richer countries in the West. They benefit from it because they can earn much more here for the same effort than they can in their own countries. Which EU country will pay me two times the rate for the job I do here in the UK? When they have as many immigrants as we do here they can lecture us about racism.
This working-class Brit has dealt with thousands of various types of immigration case files. Yes many are hard working and law abiding and a positive benefit, but a substantial number are economic drains. Even when some immigrants come here and work hard, the fact that they have partners who don't work and often have several children. This means they recieve more in public services than they contribute in tax and NI (for example a man working as a security guard with three dependents).
By the way, I have two jobs (as do most of the Brits I work with), don't vote BNP, don't oppose all immigration and know for an absolute fact I am subsidising the benefits, education and tax credits of quite a few immigrants to this country, including a fair few East Europeans (child allowance for example), and their maternity handouts for pregnant partners who turn up here just in time to give birth and collect their £500."
"Ah, Mr Balls. Mr Balls.
You say:
The stark differences between our economy and the rest in housing, finance and trade were too much for Britain to bear with no interest rate or exchange rate flexibility.
Oooh ho ho ho just what are you saying darling !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"What a strange lot the left are. They say immigration controls are racist so my assumption is that - moving away from the protest point to make themselves feel that little bit better about their progressive credentials - if the left were in government would they advocate that anyone who wanted to should come to the UK?
I only say this as I am trying to tease out the policy debate here. It is simply not good enough to say 'My policy is that Ed Balls is racist' if you claim to be a credible political movement. Or are we back to every other left wing position on every other policy
""No Nukes"" ""Stop Polluting"" ""Free Palestine"" ""We Love Iran""
All just a meaningless set of slogans which do not present a policy position.
I ask again - what is the left wing policy position on immigration?"
Ed, you are a sad populist.
By the way a policy is a set of statements that justify a set of actions. An action is generally an instruction given to the state to implement.
".
As if to prove my point...."
"Dogstarscribe
Ros used to be in the office below me and in this case I entirely agree with her.
Why do you feel that this is inconsistent with my response to your misunderstanding of DB rules?"
Hi Ed, you.ve probably been asked already, but could you provide some links to the articles where you acknowledged this problem - if it is a problem - in 2004 or at any time before June 2010?
"jonathb in the area of IT and the migrant workforce, contradiction seems to be running riot.

* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/17/ibm_borders/
IBM's (quick view) own approach to the migrant workforce.
From IBM's own inhouse pages on it own appraoch to outsourcing.

It appears when it comes to profit, IBM runs with the hound and the hare."
ilovemisty, what part of "Turkey is not part of the EU" did you not understand? And what part of "Eastern Europeans are not immigrants"? EU citizens are ENTITLED to live anywhere in the EU, just as a British citizen is entitled to live anywhere in Britain. What the restrictions that Balls defends do is that they make sure certain categories of EU citizens (Romanians, Bulgarians) do not have the same rights as others. Wouldn't you agree that it's racist to support discrimination based on ethnicity and nationality? Is there any non-racist argument for a two-tier EU citizenship system?
"crimethink:
Your post"" EU citizens are ENTITLED to live anywhere in the EU, just as a British citizen is entitled to live anywhere in Britain. ""
What are you talking about? You mean EU citizens who come here without any money or training for any specific job are entitled to be provided with a house and benefits such as schooling, healthcare, unemployment benefit, child benefit, tax credits, and a job? And who do you think ought to be paying for all this? And how do you think it can be provided when many are homeless and there are queues for treatment? Personally, I have been waiting 35 years for treatment to my arthritic feet. It is no comfort to me that people can arrive one day and get treatment the next.
You are quite wrong. A British citizen as an EU citizen is not entitled to go to any country and receive these benefits. If I wanted to go to France, for instance, I would not be entitled to anything and would not expect the French state to provide it."
Erm yes, but it's a tad late to do anything about it now isnt it.
"Ed Balls(up) states the bleeding obvious. But then, Neues Arbeit ZaNu-Lab were deaf, dumb and blind to what everyone else knew.
Maybe it was all part of the Teflon B'Liar, Puff-Daddy McLoon, Mandelpratt and their Marxist Fellow Travelers to bugger up UK society for a generation. Well, they certainly have succeed in financial terms to bugger up everyone's future here in the UK.
Sod, the sodding sodding lot 'o em. I hope they turn themselves inside out by stuffing themselves up their collective ring-pieces and listen to their own collective sh*t.... because that is all they are good for....... Like the insides of Father Jack's dirty linen basket........
'Chocolate Fireguards' and 'Teapots' come to mind....."
"""mustspeak
I won't comment on the immigration issue directly, but as regards the test for immigrants to speak English: how about first making sure first that the English speak it correctly? How often, for instance, have all of us seen the word ""Their"" (as in belonging to them) spelled as ""There"" and vice versa? I have even seen this from writers in computer and astronomical magazines!!""
That is grossly unfair, again and again the left made sure the working classes suffered a 'comprehensive' education.
I have a B. Sc., M. Sc. and a Ph. D., I also have a C.S.E. Grade 3 in English. Thank you Anthony 'rich fucking publicly educated' Crosland and Shirley 'rich fucking publicly educated' Williams."
"Too late, ten years too late. One of the aims of the EU is to raise the economic level of all member countries -unfortunately we are not encouraging prosperous countries into the EU [such as Norway], but poverty stricken, 19th century, economies post communism. This is not a good time.
How is it that so many come via Germany, France etc to UK? There must be policies, permited by EU law that restrict other EU nationals? ""New Labour's"" aspirational supporters - the small employers, market gardens and large retail chains - would suffer at first as they lose their cheap labour -but along with raising the minimum wage - and prices, British workers would be employed in their place at a decent wage."
"Crimethink:
Your post 11.20 is utter rubbish. EU citizens are not entitled to live anywhere. For a start, Eastern Europeans can't go to most countries including France and Germany. They are not entitled to come here without money and demand housing and jobs and medical treatment and benefits - we are borrowing the money to pay them. If we do not borrow the money, how can demand entitlement?
British citizens are not entitled to go to other EU countries and demand likewise either.
Where does your information come from - the Socialist Worker?
I am still waiting for Hoffwoff to tell me what esteemed professional job he is doing in the public sector that none of the eight million Brits could have done. Let me guess, Domestic Violence Co-ordinator, Allotments Adviser, Adviser the Quangos name committee. Personally, I have been waiting 35 years for treatment to my arthritic fee and I have paid taxes for 40 years so why am I waiting when all these people are treated immediately. What evidence do you have that BNP voters put less into the economy than newly arrived immigrants and are supported by immigrants. Your post really is a disgrace."
"These half-wits in Labour are just trying so hard to outdo right-wing parties, as creepy as it looks, they are not even good at it.
What riles me, is the absolute cluelessness of labour leaders on so many issues including immigration.
I have been fortunate enough to work with eastern Europeans in some of Britain's bitterly cold, grubby, musty medieval food factories. As someone used to working in some of the most gritty, physically draining, sweaty, sometimes humiliating jobs, I found the eastern europeans mainly the polish a marvel to work with! These guys are the most hard working people I've ever seen, their work rate and strength is something that the cowards who berate and denigrate immigrants from eastern europe needs to witness. When I worked for a few food companies, we used to joke that the polish could mix bread roll flour faster than it takes a ferrari to guzzle up a mile.
It was an honour to work alongside these eastern europeans at a time many food factories should have been closing shop because every damn loser in this country would rather sign on and wait for the giro every friday than work in them.
The current wave of immigrant bashing which has become very appealing to every politician seeking quick, cheap relevance is unfair and in bad taste. Afterall if the government had done their bit, immigration would have been better managed...
NHS in massive recruitment drive in India for junior doctors.
Is this not an indication that some aspects of tighter laws on immigration is hurting the UK more than immigrants?
Police kills two pedestrians in Luton believed to be foreign nationals.
If the shoe had been on the other foot, there would have been an uproar, 'deport the lawless foreigners', 'they are pure scum' and stuff like that...
Is the UK fast sliding into the ranks of extreme xenophobia?"
"I don't know about Canada's asylum laws, but a white South African successfully claimed asylum in Canada due to persecution for his race.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6818096.ece"
_AT_ OrangeHeart I will second that. Having worked for the last two years in lots of shit agency minimum-wage "jobs", I have been impressed with the humour and application shown by my Eastern European colleagues.
"efmcandrew
Crimethink:
Your post 11.20 is utter rubbish.
""EU citizens are not entitled to live anywhere. For a start, Eastern Europeans can't go to most countries including France and Germany. They are not entitled to come here without money and demand housing and jobs and medical treatment and benefits - we are borrowing the money to pay them. If we do not borrow the money, how can demand entitlement?
British citizens are not entitled to go to other EU countries and demand likewise either"".
Er no. Total bollocks. Was in a small village in France only the other day and there were loads of Polish and Hungarian trademen in the bar for the post-work apero. British citizens are local councillors and even Mayors of communes in France and a British citizen can be a candidate for the European Parliament anywhere in Europe.
I don't think Crimethink's sources are to be found in the austere pages of the Socialist Worker, rather the ""Free Movement of Capital and Labour"", within the European Union.....etc.
But don't let details like blinding reality get in the way of an ignorant rant eh?"
"Appalling. Utterly appalling.
The people I have met from Eastern Europe have been courteous, fun, enlivening and an asset to the community. I dont give a monkeys nuts for their economic input, so don't use that as some kind of 'natural law' as demanded by Mammon to let you off the hook you wish to wriggle on.
So why was it a mistake? Because it cost you votes from bigots?
You're all the bloody same you lot. Shape-shifters and shifty when it comes to the need for votes. Disgraceful."
"I look forward to the day, obviously now not far off, when skilled British craftsmen are looking for employment on building sites in Warsaw, Sophia and Vilnius.
Watch this cheapskate politics come back and bite you Balls."
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"What are Shadow children?
Ah - thats right - they're the children in detention at Yarls Wood.
Guess shadow education, is what they get . All they get."
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"Wow...I find the title of this article absolutely amazing.
Why would a politician so blatantly single out one group of immigrants. In America, if a democratic politician were to write an op ed saying ""we made a mistake in letting in too many hispanics"" it would go without saying this person's career in public life was finished. They would be publicly crucified."
Labour was wrong about almost everything. The economy is in ruins, we are embroiled in disastrous foreign military adventures, civil rights were denied as never before, corruption was rife in parliament...everything about the Labour Party's 13 years of misrule was incompetent, nasty, arrogant and harmful. Mr Balls is a member of a disgraced and disgraceful organisation widely despised by the population.
"Orangeheart

LOL
What a serf"
"stevehill
6 Jun 2010, 2:48PM

Very good points all.
I've recently been banned from Comments by the wife because she says it puts me in a bad mood, so I had to be very quick knocking out that message.
Some might add 24 hour licensing, renewing trident....etc...."
Interesting - noy a single person answered my earlier question
"bazzartii

.
Has it ever occured to you that if cheapstake employers did not have access to an unlimited pool of cheap labour they would have to pay people at the bottom of the heap here more, and treat them with a bit of respect for a change?
True there would be less of the grotesque income inequality, less money for the directors, less money swirling round the City trough for them to gamble away; but that might be considered a price well worth paying
BTW

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/Briefingpaper/document/41
I seem to remember Broon lying about this"
"Ed,your government borrowed a load of dough and imported a load of people to build a load of flats for a load of other people that wouldn't have been here in the first place if you hadn't imported them,What for?A miniscule increase in per capita GDP?A fantasy that it would prop up pension ponzi schemes?Perhaps you just like concrete,glass and cheap bricks?I know lads that couldn't get near those building sites,lads with families to feed,what should they have done?Gone to work in Spain and not seen their kids for months on end?
""Free movement of labour?""
Anyone that was displaced during your tenure might just call it ""forced movement of labour."""
"PM will warn today that Britain's 'whole way of life' will be disrupted for years by spending cuts--
I wonder how many capable Brit bods will now be seeking a more secure future overseas ?
Will elderly and infirm people be cast aside for the vultures to chew on?"
"It's quite disappointing to see the contempt that so many so-called socialists seem to have for unskilled manual workers. Amongst many there does appear to be an attitude that they are workshy, racist scum who deserve to lose their jobs or have their wages cut. They would probably vote BNP in any case.
I too spent many years in the 1980s working in food processing factories in Norfolk, packing bacon, picking strawberries and slaughtering and packing chickens - it was some of the lowest paid factory work in Britain, a lot of it was cash in hand, unions were virtually unknown, and temporary contracts were more common than permanent ones.
So don't give me any of that old bollocks about the English being workshy scum - they are just as hard working as any other people, despite what any loaded BBC documentary might say.
The lowest paid, most vulnerable workers need the protection of permanent contracts, a minimum wage that is more than a slave wage, and equal pay and conditions for all workers."
Pretty revolting and therefore wholly in character. This is encouraging "safe" bigotry: it is entirely PC to criticise Poles because theye are white and Christian. And of course they actually work. can't have that sort of thing, can we?
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"""Third, I support the political and economic case for EU enlargement to Turkey.""
I believe, in relation to the Turkish threat, Metternich said ""East of Vienna the Orient begins.""
A wiser man than you Ed."
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llovemisty - Prioritise the people who set up the Labour party? They're all dead! I'm all for trade unions, but they must not degenerate into protectionism, which was the curse of the 1930s slump. Let's have freedom of movement for working people, as far as is practically possible.
heck, thats not going to get you voted in as the new Labour leader - would you accept shadow home sec? you will, ok right..!
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All you need to know about Ed Balls and what he thinks of British people.
"I'm afraid I don't believe anything this man says, or anything his party has to say about immigration. When a statement such as this below states.

You just know this is absolute rubbish. If Ed Balls was to venture into a local job agency and have a chat with the staff there and ask them what the true picture is, he would be informed that these ""hard-working migrants"" come here for a few months, take the jobs of the indigenous British then go back to their own countries and claim back all the tax they have paid to the British government whilst working here. Then they come back the following year and do the same thing over again.
But then this type of deception is nothing new from Labour or it's politicians. One smidgin of truth though

I take it Ed Balls never bothers to go and ask his constituents opinions on this matter, and just takes it for granted that they will acquiesce to this. Oh the joys of millions of anatolian peasants and Kurds escaping the poverty of eastern Turkey descending upon our job centres. Incidentally when does this European project become a Eurasian project, as the boundaries of Europe would then include Iraq, Syria, Iran? What happens if the Kurds from those regions decide to reside in Turkey, and the Turks grant them passports in order to get rid of them knowing that they will come to Britain, and they too decide to decamp to north London or other metropolitan regions of the UK. Have you thought about that Ed? No I didn't think so. But then when have these gullible politicians thought anything through when it concerns the true interests of the people of this country.

No chance of explaining why you consider it to be flawed then?

The world doesn't care about Britain, heart of Europe or not. How much longer do we have to swallow this so called ""axiom.""? Britain may need to be in Europe and Europe may benefit from our being part of the EU, (especially as they export more to us than we export to them) but please spare us these axiomatic cliches.
No I'm sorry you and your party have had your time, and you have fouled up dreadfully. All the benefits of your tenure in office, i.e. The minimum wage, and er, er, well that's about it really, I would like to add the improvements to the NHS to the glorious achievement of executing a wage hike, but unfotunately it looks as though the improvements to the NHS still have to be paid for, and we're going to have to make cutbacks. So it's goodbye Ed take your pals with you, close the door and don't come back again ever."
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This article is utterly dishonest. Balls knows perfectly well that a country cannot restrict EU freedom of movement and stay in the EU. Why doesn't he just join UKIP?
Absolute, sensationalist tosh. Doed this man really think he is capable of leading a political party when he come out with statements like this?
"Lets just allow as many unskilled workers to come here as want to. Hell we can find them housing; no shortage of affordable housing here. As for the millions of UK people on unemployment benefit; they are just a lazy bunch who won't work long hours for wages the rest us would think is a weekend's spending money. The rest of us really don't mind paying for them to vegetate in their hellish estates. It's great seeing businesses thrive on paying workers low wages. I'm kind of alright though, because I'm in a well-paid job. It's just the majority fighting it out for a living wage, housing, school places, decent health etc. I've got private medical insurance so I'm alright jack!
I bet all the people here yelling racism are not residents of huge estates where most people are unemployed and have been for years. They are not competing for low paid jobs and social housing with unskilled immigrants. I am sick of the privileged (yes you are if you aren't them) thinking themselves morally superior to everyone else because they are not 'racist'. Well here's news, it's not racist to object to uncontrolled immigration of unskilled workers. We have far too many of our own that need help. Millions in fact. And by the way many of these British people are ethnic minorities. Is helping them racist?"
If you want to get serious about immigration reform, deport Simple Simon Cowell.
"Balls!
The good folk of Talin would no doubt look back and agree that, on balance, the economic 'plus' experienced when thousands of drunken Brits rampaged through the town on cheap hen/stag nights was simply not worth the 'negative' economic hangover, the raped and the pillaged, the destruction of peace and community.
Yet, being European, the good folk of Talin would have shown more respect and decency than that being displayed by a senior member of the opposition here today.
This is cheap, gutter press tactics and I for one am heartily sick of hearing this bilge.
We need a sea change of British Politics - and quick!"
"exiledubliner:

Farcical argument.
There were of course cherry pickers, asparagus and potatoe gatheres in the UK before we had mass immigration."
"http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284568/British-jobs-migrant-workers-Figures-ridicule-Labours-employment-pledge.html
Balls chooses to focus on Eastern Europeans but there is a much more serious issue as regards migrants from outside the EU. The Daily Mail article is wrong in saying that EE migration on the scale that occured could not have been prevented of course - as in transitional arrangements.
Nulab - what a nasty neo-liberal disgrace."
"navyman

The Blair/Broon didn't even achieve that
Per capita GDP fell by £281 (2005-2009)"
"Sigh, the xenophobic commenters here (a minority, fortunately) seem to be immune to reason. I realize the 'for'ners come to the UK to get benefits"" line is just Daily Mail nonsense, but let's suppose it was true. Can somebody tell me whether Eastern Europeans are entitled to any ""special benefits"" that other EU citizens living in the UK (say, Brits, Germans, Italians) are not entitled to? If not, where's the problem?
Unrestricted labour movement means that there is a level playing field for everyone, all across Europe. On the other hand, restrictions on labour movement (which are against EU principles, but were enacted in various countries as ""exceptional"" and temporary measures) discriminate against specific nationalities, and have no practical effect, they just force people to work in crap conditions, not pay taxes, and get easily exploited by ruthless employers. These restrictions have close to zero effect on stopping actual movement of people, since there are plenty of legal loopholes. Germany is more of a police state than Britain, and, unlike Britain, they still have restrictions on Polish workers, yet there are considerably more Poles living in Germany than in the UK.
And to the person who asked whether British minorities who have a problem with European workers can be racist, the obvious answer is yes, of course, minorities can be racist too, just as I'm sure there are racists among Eastern Europeans as well. Minority status doesn't make one immune to prejudice. Just look at the US, where nativism and anti-immigrant xenophobia are rampant among African Americans, while conversely anti-black racism is rampant among Hispanic immigrants."
Most immigrants work hard ,it is the many lazy indiginous Brits who seem afraid to work. No MP dare say this obvious fact.
"What a load of tosh!
Ed, Labour has to stop with the 'we know what's best for you' syndrome and start to listen to the voters. Your writing is partisan and lacks any sort of sincerity at all: eg ""But neither our tough points system, nor the Tories' flawed immigration cap, applies to migration within the EU.""
You just can't bring yourself to say sorry can you? You can't admit that you were a bunch of incompetent cronies, can you? You can't bring yourself to admit that you had no backbone to stand up to Blair's illegal wars? You are living in a dream world because of your hubris.
You make me want to vomit. It will be a cold day in hell before Labour gets my vote again"
It's quite clear that Balls is playing up to reactionary types. But why on earth is he doing it in this paper? He should do it in the mail, while simultaneously writing a left wing piece in the Guardian. His two-facedness would quickly be exposed, but it wouldn't be as ridiculously stupid as this.
"So, very much like Britain then, where the government set a ridiculously low minimum wage and allowed agencies to employ foreign workers under worse conditions than local ones, thereby making them more attractive to employers.

Maybe they won't say it because they aren't bigots who swallow all the lies that employers and New Labour fed them.
Just a thought."
There they go, blaming foreigners.......
Had the title been: 'We were wrong to allow so many African Caribbeans or Pakistani people or etc. into Britain' ed balls would have been arrested by now for racism.... but it's obviously acceptable to be racist towards Eastern Europeans. I wonder if they have similar articles in Eastern Europe: 'We were wrong to allow Tesco, Co-op, BP, HSBC etc into Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia' and so on.
"Ed: it's not workers from further east in the EU that are the problem - as you very well know; at least you would know if you got your head out into the daylight!
As for Turkey joining the EU, which part of ""European"" do you not understand?"
"I don't believe anyone is saying anything against eastern europeans. They are like any other nationality including us. This is about the immigration of unskilled labour to a country which currently has millions unemployed and which also lacks affordable homes for everyone who currently lives here.
It doesn't matter where they are coming from if they don't have skills that we actually NEED then they are only adding to the many problems we already have in an overcrowded country. We don't have resources to deal with yet more people. There is nothing right-wing, racist, daily mail-ish whatever about that fact. This country is skint lets not taken on the responsibility of more unskilled people looking for work while thousands of young people in the UK struggle to find any job at all. That is the real tragedy and don't be so arrogant as to dismiss people's genuine concerns about what future they will have if immigration continues this way. And to everyone who says the British are lazy shame on you. It is hypocritical, inaccurate and ignorant."
I came to the UK from NZ to teach some years ago. I was horrified to find after I had been teaching here for some time that those such as I from the former colonies here by virtue of work permits have no labour rights whatsoever in this country. Our passports are stamped 'No recourse to public funds' and those of us with English parents or grandparents are regarded with considerable suspicion by border officials when we enter and leave this country. Australian, Canadian, New Zealand and South African teachers and other professionals working here on work permits have no union looking after our interests and may be dispensed with on the whim of someone in a senior position. Eventually winning the 'right to remain' and acheiving a senior teaching position, I have been constantly appalled at the numbers of migrants who have no or very little English, few skills any employer wants or needs and very needy children who are causing massive problems in state primary education which the know-it-all Mr Balls MUST have known about in his position in education. His attempts to 'blame it all on Brown' is self-serving claptrap and he is beneathe contempt. The UK needs a strong parliamentary opposition, but if Balls is elected Labour leader the Labour party will die, leaving a basically one-party state.
"Well what did you all expect? It's simply a load of Balls after all.
NuLabour = no moral compass whatsoever.
Pj."
"_AT_pc99 6 Jun 2010, 7:34PM
Wroking in factories. Is this saying something for education policies of successive governments (of both colours) that we as a country could not produce individuals who could fill sheves in Tescos, drive minicabs and work on assesmbly lines. Is this your definition of 'higly skilled'?
Ah your government has also know that 'students' comer over to study courses in colleges that are not equiped to teach, even if these 'colleges' could teach the students cannot understand or speak English. In which langiage were the stidents being thaught?
You tell me :-)"
"_AT_crimethink

There are lots of Turks in Germany, which as you point out is not in the EU. Nothing to stop the Poles openning up their labour markets to the Turks. After all, having all those hard working immigrants can only help the Polish economy can't it? No Pole would lose out would they? How do you think all the Poles who have gone back from the UK would feel if they had to compete with a ~million Turks?
I spent a fair amount of time issuing EEA residence cards so I am fully aware of Treaty Rights. I'm not attacking East Europeans for coming here and exercising these rights, I'm attacking the government (a Labour government at that) for not thinking through the consequences of essentially uncontrolled immigration over short time scales (they are immigrants to THIS country) for working-class people here. They are allowed to think of their own selfish interests are they not, just like the Poles, the middle-classes and ethnic minorities all do? When you open your borders to poorer countries, you are likely to have a net influx of low skilled labour, no?
What part of the fact that we have millions of unemployed, the economy is stuffed and that we are about to make tens of thousands of working-class civil servants unemployed (people who want to work and do work - including me quite possibly) do you not undrstand? The very last thing we need is an influx of more cheap labour from Eastern Europe at the moment. There is nothing racist in learning from past errors and adapting to changing circumstances. If the Romanians and Bulgarians don't like waiting till the economy improves to come here then I suggest they quit the European Union."
"I'm disappointed that there is no mention of the commonwealth here.
Commonwealth citizens have shown tremendous courage and loyalty to Britain over the past century or so, stood up for us in two world wars, manned the health service, driven the busses, etc., etc., etc. But now we're in Europe they've been forgotten about. We owe them a lot, and it's a shame that they're being overlooked in favour of people who, though they might live closer geographically, often have much more tenuous links to Britain.
I think it's also a shame that people from outside Europe have no automatic right of entry to Britain even if they are married to British citizens, while European nationals with no British relatives are allowed in and out freely, no questions asked.
It's a kind of racism - giving preferential treatment to people who are geographically close and doing it in such a way that people from further afield can't get in. But then again, I think that that's what Europe is about - it's a white club which has formed a cartel to pull an advantage over other parts of the world."
"_AT_alanpav

I want a Labour party which prioritises the working-class people of this country, the ones that overwhelmingly fund it. Not one with a fetish about Israel/Palestine, America and immigrants.
Lets have freedom of movement of working people in a regulated fashion, which takes into account the impact on low-skilled workers in the host country."
"_AT_Dunnyboy

If you are a working-class prole in the UK you must realise you have no right to serve your own interests. Even if you only question the scale or rate of immigration in non-racist terms, it still apparently means you have a garden shed load of Zyklon B you are just itching to use"
"_AT_kikichan
We have millions of people here either directly from the Commonwealth, or who their British born descendants. Indians, Jamaicans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc. All those countries wanted independence, they did not want to be British so why are you moaning now?
Unfortunately some of these communities have also engaged in large scale abuse of the immigration rules which is why the rules have been tightened (eg new rules on abuse of student visas, introducing visas for Jamaica etc).
As largely secular Europeans we also have much more culturally in common with Germans, French, Poles etc than many Commonwealth countries. For example, not obsessing over religion to the extent of perpetual offense, threatening violence or murdering people.
The EU exists to stop further conflict in Europe and to promote trade. Lots of ethnic and religious minorities exist in the EU, and have far more rights and are less subject to massacre than equivalents in the a fair bit of the Commonwealth (e.g India, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, South Africa...etc)."
Actually, they did. The (ironic) problem was that the votes were split over the Tories, BNP and UKIP : if all 3 were added together, Ed would have had the "portillo moment" predicted for him. That's why he's now trying to woo the supporters of the 2 smaller parties.
"ilovemisty, it's a bit disgusting that you persevere in your thinly veiled racist remarks. So if Romanians and Bulgarians don't like being discriminated against on the basis of their nationality they should ""quit the EU'? That's about as crass as saying black South Africans should have just emigrated if they objected to second-class status in the apartheid days.
Diverting the conversation again to immigration (an unrelated topic) and Turkey is just plain dishonest. As Turkey is not a member of the EU, Poland has no obligation to ""open its labour market"" to Turkey. However, Poland has zero restrictions for workers from the EU. EU citizens are entitled to equal rights across Europe. If you don't like how that works, you can start a petition to get out of the EU. I can't believe the blatant racism of Brits who want one set of rules for themselves (Balls openly claims that he wants Brits to continue to work unrestricted in places like Frankfurt, while Eastern Europeans shouldn't), and another set of rules for Eastern European EU citizens. This sot of hate-filled garbage could only resonate with paranoid Little Englanders with chips on both shoulders, afraid they'd lose their jobs to smarter, better educated, more adaptable Eastern Europeans."
"What do you mean by ""more adaptable""? Does it mean willing to work for less pay than local labourers or willing to work under worse conditions like temporary contracts or cash in hand?
If only the thick, racist little Englanders of Norfolk, Suffolk and Lincolnshire would learn to get by on less, they would be happy too. Their grandfathers learnt to adapt when they got booted off the farms by mechanisation, their fathers learnt to adapt when they got squeezed out of their villages and onto council estates in King's Lynn and Thetford because their landlords sold the houses they lived in as weekend retreats for the rich.
Life is all about learning to adapt - especially if you're a a poorly educated Little Englander.
The contempt that some people have for the labourer is just astonishing. I could understand it from a Tory or an employer, because that's their business, but when I hear it from people who claim to be Socialists, I have to stop and marvel at what has happened to the Labour Party since I left."
"Mr Ed Balls is being very cowardly in seeking soft scapegoats for what he considers to be the necessary self-criticism that the Labour Party must undergo to transform itself from a governing party to a ""listening"" party. Understandably this Labour leader hears the angry word ""immigration"" on the lips of his voters in Morley and Outwood and immediately he thinks ""Eastern Europeans"". ""In retrospect"" he thinks the decision in 2004 to lift transitional restrictions on the free movement of labour between the UK and Central (not ""Eastern"" !) European members states of the EU was wrong.
Well at the time it was not wrong. The input from hardworking Poles and other EU nationalities was highly beneficial to the growing pre-recession British economy and saved English and Scottish agriculture from extinction, as well as many service industries in this country. It gave the British economy that extra dynamism that made it soar ahead of the more sluggish and protective French and German economies.
What was wrong about the decision in 2004, as the Federation of Poles in Great Britain repeatedly reminded the government, was the blind lack of proper staistics on how many Central Europeans were arriving here, where were they finding work and settling and how this would impact on local services, including schools, social services, the police and the NHS. It was only trade union pressure that ensured that these workers were protected from exploitation by gangmasters in the agricultural and food production industries but had still failed to protect those working in hotels and on building sites.
Yes, these new workers would be making their positive impact on the British economy and contributing into the excheqeur through paying income tax, national insurance and council tax. The problems was that the benefits and costs of this would not be evenly distributed throughout the country. Large cities like London, Edinburgh and Birmingham could absorb these new arrivals relatively easily, but smaller country towns such as Peterborough, Boston, Crewe or Redditch would find themselves exposed to an unexpected drain on their financial resources and their social fabric and even large muti-ethnic centres such as Slough were finding it difficult to convince the central government about the prior need for extra resources because of futile arguments over the sheer number of those arriving. It was this blindness to the uneven demographic and social impact of Central Europeans on different local communities throughout the country which was the government's most serious error in the years following 2004, and NOT its decision to open the British labour market to this eager new EU workforce. This seemingly calculated lack of interest in the new statistics and new local needs made the existing population (whether black, white or brown) nervous about the new influx and the increased competition in the lower income bracket of the labour market, and it allowed the redtop press and extremist organisations to come up with their own statistics on arrivals, on crime, on benefits, which suited their specific anti-Labour, anti-immigration and anti-EU agenda and resulted in considerable inter-community tension, xenophobic hysteria and more recently, even racially motivated murder.
Mr Balls' belated change of heart will only increase that tension. Does he want this on his conscience?"
"""toothfairy
7 Jun 2010, 11:40AM
it is the many lazy indiginous Brits who seem afraid to work. ""
Please leave your racist generalisations in your living room!!"
"_AT_crimethink

Nothing I said was racist. I have no problems with East Europeans, I have a problem with the government for letting so many in in such a short time without proper planning.
No, this sort of sensible idea (learning from the Polish situation) resonates with people wondering if they will still have a roof over their heads in a few months time, knowing they will have to compete with people able and willing to work for less than they can afford to live on. It is not a level playing field or there would be a million working-class Brits in Eastern Europe. Again, name the EU country where Brits can earn several times the rate they get here in the UK. Frankfurt is in Germany last time I checked.
The Bulgarians and Romanians will just have to lump it, they are getting more out of the EU than they are paying in after all. If they don't like it that is just tough."
"Ilovemisty
7 Jun 2010, 3:51PM

That's not the point. The point is that _everyone_ should be treated according to merit where immigration is concerned, and not receive preferential treatment just because they're from Europe. There are many people in the commonwealth (and elsewhere) with stronger links to Britain than many Europeans. Look at the Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians who have British grandparents. They have less right now to be in Britain than Europeans. Look at the Gurkhas (I know Nepal isn't in the commonwealth, but the same rule applies).
And we also _took_ a lot from those countries. Those countries are as they are largely because we made them so. We owe them. Big time.

That's a blanket statement. I haven't noticed many West Indians obsessing over religion. I've not seen many Australians threatening violence or murdering people. We've never been threatened with invasion from Kenya or Papua New Guinea.
In fact, what I see is that the Commonwealth stood behind us when we've been at war with other European countries."
"Jeremy Rifkin's 'The end of work':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Work"
"_AT_ llovemisty.
Your grasp of history is exceeding weak! In the 1960s Whitehall, without consulting its Commonwealth partners, cancelled the British citizenship, of which we were perhaps foolishly proud, of Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and South Africans in order to qualify to join the then European Common Market. Those countries had been independent parliamentary democracies for decades but were very definitely members of the British 'family of nations' with a shared cultural history. That removal of our classification as British seemed at the time to be very poor recompense for pouring troops, materiel and food into the 'Mother Country' during two World Wars.
This is one Kiwi whose older relatives here would spit sparks if you told them that they had more in common with Germans or Frenchmen or Poles than with their relatives in NZ.
As to your points about us Commonwealth types obsessing over religion or murdering people, I admit some Kiwis and Aussies, Saffas and Canucks tend to drink a bit much after Rugby games and get a bit silly, but obsess about religion or murder people - not very often!"
"_AT_kiwiinlondon and kikichan
Yes we do indeed have a lot in common with (and a lot to be grateful for from) the likes of Canada, New Zealand and Australia, as well as other Commonwealth countries (although a fair few Indians/Pakistanis fought for the Japanese in WW2, and of course to be fair a great many fought against them). As someone interested the history of both WW1 and WW2 I can tell you that the contribution of Commonwealth forces is greatly respected here in the UK. I only recently saw a documentary about the Canadian victory at Vimy Ridge in WW1, and another on El Alamein which explicitly mentioned the New Zealand, South African, Australian and Indian forces (amongst others) involved.
I am not actually a blanket fan of the EU project. I believe we have given a bit too much sovereignty (and money) away. The opening of our borders to unrestricted movement without proper planning was also a mistake. I would be fine with forming a community with Canada, Australia and New Zealand (you could add the Caribbean countries, India and a few others), because we are essentially the same people with the same sensibilities. However, the Commonwealth is not just liberal ""western"" democracies. It also contains the likes of Pakistan, Nigeria, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Uganda for example.
I don't feel I have much in common with people who believe time in prison or death is appropriate punishment for blasphemy or apostasy, or preach the sort of open hatred against gays which is unfortunately common in an increasingly large part of Christian and Muslim communities in Africa for example. Or people who reject secularism (Pakistan). This is why I referred to having more in common with Europeans than much of the Commonwealth. Clearly NZ, Canada and New Zealand (along with others) are culturally similar to Europe in these matters. I apologise if I offended with my over generalisation.
The fact remains that in their ""wisdom"", and for largely economic reasons the British government signed up to a EU. Just as for example Australia is building closer ties with Pacific countries close by, the emphasis was placed on links with the immediate neighbours. I for one am sorry if it has damaged relationships with our most faithful allies, but it is a political fact. As for owing other countries, it is pretty fair to say that history shows us that Western Europe owes Britain, the Commonwealth and the US big style for freeing them, but my family for example recieved nothing in terms of reward from the French, Belgiums, Norwegians etc, so any ""debt"" is history."
But "in many cases they came with aptitudes and a commitment, an involvement we haven't always seen in our labour force" is not really the same as "eastern European immigrants have more "aptitude and commitment" to work than British people", is it?

_AT_hoddle1 - They probably work harder than Mr Farage does. Almost every time I see him, he is in a pub.
_AT_hoddle1 - They work very hard actually, some of them attend meetings, go to parliament (for a good sleep usually) - and even give secretaries instructions!
_AT_hoddle1 - fantastic riposte
"_AT_hoddle1 - I shadowed an MP as part of my university course.
12 hours days as standard, usually 6-7 days a week not including constituency surgeries.
A backbencher as well, not a minister or member of a select committee."
"_AT_hoddle1 05 June 2013 10:20am. Get cifFix for Firefox.

How do you know this, or is just more clap trap from those who are ""anti"" anything and everything?"
_AT_JDKoopa - 12 hours a day 7 days a week? I'm impressed. How long did you shadow this paragon?
"_AT_Glycon -
Filling out expenses forms, mortgage flipping and duckhouse purchases clearly takes time and dedication."
"_AT_Glycon - I worked (well I supposed interned) for about 12 weeks.
I only got to do one week with him in Westminster, that was enough tbh I was knackered!
I'm not exaggerating either, those guys do insane hours."
"_AT_curia - off the top of my head responding to constituent queries, even the insane ones (which was a fairly high proportion), debating legislation, travel to and from Westminster to constituencies, surgeries, attending meetings with potential investors to the constituencies, campaigning, voting.
Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative."
He is right, they have more drive and are harder workers, and also do menial jobs that some people won't do. I remember Boris Johnson saying something similar to John Bercow not long ago.
"_AT_sukyb 05 June 2013 10:21am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
I would do a ""menial"" job somewhere else for 4 times the UK minimum wage with government supported housing and free healthcare if I had no skills and would otherwise be unemployed at home.
Give UK workers those conditions and you just watch the ""drive"" return.
But those options aren't open to low or unskilled UK workers. In fact the reverse of the Romanian situation is that UK workers have a right to go and work for 1/4 of their current minimum in a language spoken by 0.05% of the worlds population. Yet people still persist in the myth that the EU open labour market is a level playing field, it isn't.
The world's your oyster if you are skilled, if not then immigration is a one way street and you are f*cked in the UK."
"_AT_haardvark - it's not like Romania is the only country in the EU. What's preventing the unskilled British workers from learning a skill actually in demand in the UK? Or from say, learning German, and joining some apprenticeship program there? Or from exploring a number of other options that the EU offer?
But I know, blaming the outsiders is so much easier."
"_AT_Oaklander
Not the point.
If you have the current arrangement then the result is inevitable, economic dislocation.
It's also pointless. If you have an in demand skill you can work anywhere anyway and there is no need for the open arrangement that can only work against those of lower skills in the UK. I've work in and out of EU countries all my life. The EU is an utter irrelevance in this case.
I'm all for highly skilled Romanians to come to the UK also to do highly skilled jobs. I do not see the point of re-staffing Costa Coffee in London and giving subsidy to their business indirectly through the benefits system to their employees.
And it still leaves us with the problem of what to do with all those people in the UK who would have done those jobs but don't have the skills to go and compete in the rest of the EU."
_AT_haardvark - I understand that you want to protect the unskilled in the UK, but you are not doing them any favour by trying to shift the blame on Eastern Europeans for their lack of skills and training. While Romanians/Poles learn a new language, attend universities and apprenticeship programs, and supplement their income by working at Costas (many stuff there are students, from what I understand), the Brits waste their time on internet forums complaining about what a bad deal joining EU has been for them. They should understand that the world does not owe anything to them. And if they get their way by withdrawing from the EU and protecting their labour markets, the less competitive the country will become.
_AT_Oaklander - Well it looks like the Germans will pay you now to learn German and go take up a paid apprenticeship in that country. You do need A levels though..
_AT_haardvark - I am a Romanian with PHD in mathematics that I studied in Romania. I came here, contacted NARIC, they granted me equivalent degrees in here. Still I wasn't able to do anything than construction work/cleaning. The reason for that was that Romanians only can work as a self employed and the jobs that you mostly find as a self employed are the ones above. I started doing ACCA and picked up bookkeeping. Had some help from a friend because otherwise no one would have chosen me for a position over of a resident. It is true that migration may bring the cost of low skilled jobs down. But still... when I came here agencies wouldn't even look at me because I did not have all the documents needed to legally work. If you are born here, all you have to do is go and register with a agency. A Romanian that comes here needs at first to know the language then he needs to advertise... to find work as whatever is needed, get reference letters, get liability insurance, write invoices, then apply for National Insurance which you don't get even if you give them the required paperwork, and you try and you try and hopefully you will get it. Then things get easier, you get a Unique Tax Reference Number and apply for CSCS and after all that you can work as a construction worker on a site. If we do all that and we get jobs, and a british doesn't that makes those british people plain lazy.
"_AT_Catalin C Iftimie -
I accept that there are perhaps millions of British people who do not have the determination to get a PhD. You are better at getting and holding a job on a building site than many British people. The problem is that our government is washing its hands of them in favour of encouraging immigration.
That is why I am outraged. I am not outraged that there exist Romanians and others with drive and determination. I am outraged that we allow them to come here and take a job that would otherwise go to a less qualified British person when there are so many unemployed.
What do you suggest we do with those that you out-qualify?
Or more importantly what does Mr Bercow suggest we do with them?"
_AT_jimjim1 - you may blame your government for many problems, but something they are certainly not doing is "encouraging immigration". I think they've made it perfectly clear, both policy and rhetoric-wise, that immigrants are by and large not welcome in the UK.
"_AT_Oaklander 05 June 2013 11:06am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Who is blaming who? Can you see one comment criticism in my comments.
Giving them the right or not to come to the UK is a political decision. I'm not a hypocrite I've worked in many places, but that's always been under the control and with the approval ultimately of the sovereign government who (presumably) work in the interests of the people of that country. There is no political imperative for the EU to work in the interests of people of the UK.
I criticize those who signed the UK up to the EU and gave that control away.
If we had a sensible arrangement we can do exactly what Switzerland has just done this week and limited the number of EU work permits.
This is costing us dearly. Subsidy of incoming workers plus those displaced."
"_AT_haardvark - sorry if I misunderstood your words.
Switzerland has signed up to the free movement clause (in addition to signing up to Schengen and a bunch of other treaties). Their ability to limit entry of EU workers will expire in 2015, if I remember correctly.
In theory, work-permit based employment is fine, but only for those on short-term assignments, and when you are certain of your future.Trust me, I worked on H1B visa in the US, and planning anything long-term there is very difficult (starting from buying property, to planning retirement etc). In addition, work permits reduce bargaining power of workers (it's not easy to find another employment, and being laid off can mean almost immediate removal from the country). This gives disproportionate amount of power to the employer, which ironically can be to the detriment of the local workers, as salary of those on work permits can be held relatively low. What free movement of labour in the EU gives is the solution to all these problems. True, there may be economic costs for the less skilled as well, but as the experience of Germany shows, it's not really a blame of the EU."
"_AT_Catalin C Iftimie - The Tories and UKIP keep saying how they love high-skilled immigration and how they want to encourage skilled workers and postgraduate students to come to Britain. In order to get a visa (I'm a Bolivian PhD student), I had to pay a £300 application fee, on top of around £200 worth of travel expenses to attend the visa interview, roughly £100 worth of certified English translations for all the documents (I would have expected that UK Embassy officials working in Latin America would be required to know Spanish to get the job - which incidentally they do - but that doesn't stop them from putting stupid requirements like that), and the cost of getting some of the required documents (e.g. £300 IELTS/TOEFL test with scores higher than those required by the university for a Law PhD student). Then wait for all my documents to be shipped to another UK Embassy in Brazil, so that they take an extra month to grant the visa. They treat you like they are doing you a huge favour throughout the entire process, and it doesn't get any better once you get to Heathrow.

After having applied for a visa for a postgraduate programme in Italy the previous year, the difference was quite stark. I didn't have to attend any interview, and they made the decision on the basis of all the documents I sent them by courier, without shipping the documents to another country. No requirement of providing translations, no application fee (the only thing I had to pay for was the postage), the staff at the airport were polite and welcoming, and Italians didn't treat me like I am eating their lunch. I was entitled to use their health services from day 1, while in the UK I have to pay for private insurance, as my visa says ""no recourse to public funds"". Overseas tuition fees in Italy were higher than EU rates, but the difference was nowhere near the one in the UK (i.e. paying £11500 per year, which is £7828 more than UK/EU rates). In other words, if you are a high-skilled Bolivian who isn't as well off as I am, you shouldn't consider the UK at all, as you will not be able to afford it without a massive scholarship (I was lucky enough to get funding from an external institution)."
"_AT_jimjim1 05 June 2013 12:04pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.

That's absolutely the question. Every country is a spectrum of ability and education. Government needs to function in the interests of all that spectrum otherwise by definition it doesn't represent the demos. A vote from a PHD is equal to that of a labourer in any democratic society. This is why the EU is not democratic and never can be: who are the demos?
Ultimately, all but one human being in the world is out-skilled, out-worked or out-anythinged by somebody.
You can even re-phrase the question. There are almost certainly people who'll out-qualify and out-work Romanians in China or India. Why not give them a chance and open borders? What so privileged about Romania? Indeed what's so privileged about anyone in the world in ""idealistic mode"". The problem is we haven't abolished the nation-state, installed world government and given everyone an equal vote - EU-migration is a policy out of kilter with economic reality."
"_AT_Catalin C Iftimie 05 June 2013 11:31am. Get cifFix for Firefox.

There are many factors to be taken into account. Idleness is not one of them. Many employers will take on an immigrant because they are easier to exploit. British people are more likely to stand up for themselves."
"_AT_haardvark 05 June 2013 12:28pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.

Very well said."
_AT_Brimstone52 - immigrants without rights are certainly easy to exploit. Keep them away from the legal labour market, and most will work for sub-par wages.
_AT_Brimstone52 - Yes. You are right. But that is because the government does not empower the immigrants. So you can't say anything when you are desperate to get a job
"_AT_Oaklander -
Well, well well.
I understand that the present Tory gubmint is presently offering lipservice in the direction of less immigration.
The reality is that for 15 years the Tory ""opposition"" made exactly zero objections to the Blairite ""mad mullah"" policy of unlimited immigration.
For a few small months we have had a few less immigrants, however one day very soon maximum immigration will be re-instated.
I am entirely serious that I think that any British parent should be recommending to their children to escape abroad OR - if they are male - consider going Islamic."
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There's going to be a shitstorm. The telegraph story already has in excess of 1200 comments on this, and they ain't pretty.
Not too much to argue with Bercow on here?
_AT_crosby40 - Some of which surprisingly, or perhaps not so surprisingly, can be found here on CiF.
"_AT_crosby40 05 June 2013 10:23am. Get cifFix for Firefox.

All I saw from Farage in the article was some comments regarding Bercow making political comments.
Where did he say anything about immigration?"
What would John Bercow know about hard work?
_AT_Glycon - Says the person posting on the Guardian website during working hours.
_AT_JDKoopa - Off the tweets are we, Sally?
_AT_Glycon - I take it all back, you are obviously a professional comedian.
_AT_JDKoopa - Not as funny as the clowns in parliament though.
He should try it sometime.
he may be right, but see him and his Tory friends squeal like pigs if any Poles or Czechs came over here and were willing to do HIS cushy jobs for lower wages like they undercut the average british workers
_AT_johnpaulmac - God don't give the Poles an idea, mind I think it's only a matter of time we have every other race running the commons so a band of Poles probably wouldn't make much difference.
Absurd comments from Bercow. Only the highly motivated come, and even the minimum wage here is equivalent to the wage a professional would get back home.
_AT_diddoit - first of all, the minimum wage here is only about 6 pounds. Monthly wage is only about 900 pounds- hardly a bonanza, even in Eastern European countries (trust me, professionals earn more there). Add to that the cost of living in the UK, nasty weather and cool attitude from the locals, and coming here may not be such a great idea even for Romanians.
Yet more proof that the MP`s, no matter if there Labour, the Tories, or Lib Dems, they prefer immigrants over the native British. When will we wake the hell up, and .
"_AT_optimusslime 05 June 2013 10:41am. Get cifFix for Firefox.

Bercow is descended from Romanians. What else do you expect him to say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bercow"
"Peoples views on immigrants depends on their personal experience or just their ignorant bias views.
The biggest problem is, as in Australia many years ago, when English were shipped en-mass to areas where there was little work. The Australians and immigrants from England and other countries, protested at their arrival. Yet in other areas where there were only a few immigrants they were welcomed with open arms. Same country, same time scale but two different situations.
We had the same outcry when they came from various other countries.
It is the sudden arrival en-mass in isolated locations that causes all the problems - overloading all the services.
As regards under cutting wages, well that is one of the reasons the government like them. They have come in the main from very poor countries and what they get paid is seen as far more than back home. That is until they realise the cost of living is much more.
On the other side of the coin, there are claims that our unemployed refuse to take the lower paid jobs.
Well if you are entitled to £26+k [cash in hand] without getting out of bed - why should you ? Not forgetting that in order to have that same standard of living you would have to earn £35k to £40k due to cost to get to work; income tax; NI contributions; pension contributions; working clothes; tools to mention a few of the costs. So Cameron and Co. are wrong when they say they have limited benefits to average earnings - I do not think they taught maths at the schools and UNI that he and Osborn attended.
In France to access the hospital service you have to show your passport or identity card as well as your health insurance card. So why is UK lagging behind ?"
"_AT_voiceforlogic - I would hate to live in a country where I lay dying at a hospital door simply because I could not find my identity card.
Hurray for our NHS!"
_AT_voiceforlogic - If that's how it is in France, then France is the one lagging behind.
"If only he could concentrate on his job in the Commons !
Isn't it about time he made Cameron actually answer a question ?
Cameron gets away with it by knocking Labour, he never actually answers a question !
So the whole honesty and integrity of The House of Commons is called into disrepute !"
I'm constantly seeing how our 'rich' classes are doing better than the 'poor' classes (in relative terms). Yet when others want a slice of our pie they are blamed for our woes. I have spent time in Romania and always found them conscientious workers who simply want to improve their living standards. I cannot blame them for that.
Personally I treat the sound of Nigel Farage's voice like that of someone farting and apply the "don't ask, don't tell" approach; eventually it will go away.
"Those that are willing to leave there families behind and travel 100s of miles to a foreign culture which speaks a foreign language in order to gain work demonstrate more ""aptitude and commitment"" to work than those who don't.
Ignoring ""Britishness"" for one moment, he only seems guilty of speaking the bloody obvious."
"I was under the impression that constitutionally ""The Speaker"" was similar to the ""Sovereign"" insofar as they were NOT to make overt political comments eother supporting ot criticising government policy or to comment n sensitive issues especially when visiting or speaking in their ""official"" capacity.
Mr Bercow is of course fully entitled to his private views but NOT when he is acting in his official capacity. As Speaker Lenthall once said: "" I have neither eyes to see nor tongue to speak in this place but as the House is pleased to direct me, whose servant I am here""."
"Mr Bercow, locked in a deadly race with his idiot wife to secure the coveted ""buffoon of the year"" award, opens his mouth and some fool speaks.
Now there's a surprise."
_AT_neilmack - I don't know who's worse him or his wife they both act like idiots but then I suppose that how to get on nowadays. Why doesn't Bercow stay in Romania with his relatives.
"what the fuck does this man know about hard work
Paid to sit on his arse to shout order order
Why are the government so easy to condemn british workers
WE work as hard as anyone , when their is the work to do.
he wants to get of his arse and go work in a factory or steelworks or pit , oops sorry they have all gone, they come for benefits not work !
we are the cash cow for the world, but we starvew our own to feed others.
its time our government praised our workers or lets put them on 71 quid a week dole see what they think to that"
"The youngsters used to work weekends and evenings to earn pocket money, students at Uni. worked to pay their way through Uni. Many people had second jobs, although we had a 6 day week, GB prospered through it's hard working people after the war.
Then, children were stopped from working at 12, then 14 and now i think it is 16. When I see these people from E Europe working in the fields I am not impressed! They are always stopping for a break, then the machinery breaks down and more time sitting in the grass with drinks and snacks. Not as if the work were physically taxing now. No hoeing gangs and no harvesting by hand. Waste is abundant due to sloppy work!
Being able to work to earn pocket money was a great incentive that children were deprived of, as was the ability to adapt to the hard days work that was expected! Many people in their 70's can do a long hard days work as they were brought up to do it. Today's young people aren't brought up to work!
I am sure the same has happened in Eastern European countries! Only the elderly that were brought up to work are capable of doing a hard days work! Sitting on their butt all day watching a screen is not teaching youngsters to work and not bringing up future generations to work!"
_AT_Forestlands - You are right, absolutely.
"voice for logic
Well if you are entitled to £26+k [cash in hand] without getting out of bed - why should you ?

Dont you think that if this figure was true we would all pack in our jobs .
dole is 71 pound a week
esa 100 pound a week
whers the 26,000 come from then ? out of the mouth of IDS the lying bastard
no where else."
"_AT_lonewarrior -

I thought it was a bit more than 2000 people - something like 40,000 households...?"
"Eastern european people are renowned for having a work ethic but much of it is based on stereotype that largely comes from the soviet era and, before that, the eastern european Jewish immigrants of the late 19th/early 20th century who were forced to work ten times harder than anyone else - usually starting their own businesses as many British employers were too anti-semitic to employ them.
One of the main reasons why the diligent eastern european worker stereotype has undergone something of a revival today though is largely due to the fact that employers are more likely to employ immigrants to work for them than non-immigrants as it is entirely legal to pay them much less. As the Equal Pay Act does not cover race, religion or nationality - and only gender - it is still entirely legal to pay one worker less for doing exactly the same job than an other purely on the grounds, for instance, that you, as an employer, simply prefer one nationality, race or religion to the other.
Strange, but true."
"_AT_3genders -
Hit the nail on the head son! EU migrants work very hard, and long hours for poor pay. Why? Because in their own countries, with minimal investment under a Communist, totalitarian regime (until the Wall went down) where there are few jobs, and low wages.
What a surprise that all the employers are in love with them. I think it is called ""exploitation"".
I have also noticed that within a couple of years this all changes, they want more money and suddenly the ""work ethic"" so lauded by the employers evaporates.
Case in point. I have 3 Romanian lads in the flat upstairs, none of them work. Was talking to one of them the other day, asked what he did. He said he was a ""Plasterer"" but that he was very good at it but the jobs were not paying enough! (You could not make it up)
All 3 spend all day laughing and shouting and smoking Skunk Weed in the back garden or out their kitchen window. Then throw all the cigarette ends out the window using my patio as an ashtray.
No doubt all 3 are claiming benefit.
What sickens me is how the government have turned their backs on the UK workforce, school leavers and would rather see us on the Dole and employ EU migrants. I have suspected for a long time that Government & ""Big Business"" is complicit in all of this. We are so brainwashed by ""Political Correctness"", the BBC that we are not allowed to say anything about it, or are a ""Racist"".
Basically employers love 'em because they work cheap, Government dont give a toss and that prat Bercow has just proved what I suspected all along!"
John Bercow's spokesman...the speaker has someone to speak for him...?
Bercow is the game show host of the House of Commons I'm not sure what experience he has to make such generalist statements that overall immigrants are better workers. Maybe he is talking from experience I don't know.
"Bercow has proved what I suspected all along, Politicians are hell bent on getting half the former Soviet Union over here, regardless of what party they represent. Why? Because they all represent Big Business and love cheap migrant labor. Even if the Country is in recession & our school leavers cannot get jobs.
I am sick of hearing ""they are better than us"", this is employer code for saying they work longer hours, cheaper. Sure they work hard, for a few years then demand huge pay rises and shorter hours in my experience.
Bercow's comments, even if in answer to a question are sickening. Did they invent the Jet Engine and the Steam Locomotive? I dont think so. To say they are ""better"" than British workers is frankly insulting, but says it all in this age of ""Political Correctness"" gone bonkers. They work cheap, end of. They are not any better or worse than the majority of hard working British people, struggling under inept successive Governments, to raise a family and find a job.
Of course, under ""Political Correctness"" you are not allowed to state the bleeding obvious, that mass immigration is totally out of control, or branded a ""Racist"". Sorry, the race card has been pulled too many times. Time we spoke out. Some maybe hard working but a huge percentage are basically ""Russian Mafiosi"" and milking the system for all it is worth. Sorry, not allowed to say that am I?
Vote UKIP & put a stop to this nonsence!"
_AT_telecasterjohn - what a bunch of ridiculous nonsense.
_AT_telecasterjohn - Unfortunately quite a lot of MP's are descended from other races so they won't say anything bad about there old country as Bercow wouldn't say anything criticising the Romanians when his Grandparent were Romanian. This country is just a joke now we're frightened of our own shadow.
So an MP cannot play a compliment to hard working immigrants but it is ok for an un elected moutpiece to trash hard working immigrants and have the elected government jumping through hoops to satisfy the bigotry he has whipped up?
Good for Bercow. Long live free movement of people and workers in the EU.
_AT_martinduncannon - And if he, as speaker expressed opinions diametrically opposite to your opinions, do you feel that he should remain as speaker????
_AT_martinduncannon - Hope that someone takes your job soon for a lot less pay than your getting then lets see what your opinion is then shall we...........................
_AT_bobbybt - Free movement of labour does not take away jobs from British people not even in Boston, Lincs. Indeed it would be impossible to run intensive British agriculture or the NHS (two entirely different sectors) without migrant labour. The problem in Boston is very rapid social change from a town which 10 years ago was 95% White British to now only 60% White British (and 35% White Other), but this has not created unemployment. The arrival of migrants has met employment demand than Brits have been unable to fill.
_AT_MichaelBusymouthDoug - Yes, actually he used to be a racist little sod on the right wing of the Tory party (the Monday club I believe) but in the meantime the Speaker has reformed himself.
"Farage – who challenged the Speaker in the 2010 general election – told the Daily Telegraph: ""It is outrageous that Mr Bercow is happy to overthrow the wisdom of ages and think it acceptable to comment on matters that are both highly political and deeply contentious. He is a disgrace to the office of Speaker.
While agreeing with Bercow, it is not his place as speaker, to discuss on a public forum such a contentious subject."
John Bercow should remain impartial but how can he when his Grandparents were ROMANIAN. He is another who although years ago, his Jewish parents came here and settled and then bringing up junior told him to screw everything and make lots money and not to care who he upsets. I wonder if he is so fond of his Romanian people, he would work for £6 an hour or less, we all know what the answer to that is don't we. The house of commons is full of people that haven't even got an idea of what normal people want or would like, to them it's just money and we are going back to the Victorian Values that another John wanted us to live by a John Major. He done OK for a clown who used to work in the circus. Try and get the message Mr Bercow if you like Romanians that much ........go and live in Romania.
HARD WORK.......................MP's..........................Contradiction in terms isn't it, and to ask if they would do their job for £6.19 per hour what sort of answer do you think we would get, if they did there would be more corruption and brown envelopes and lobbyists in Parliament than there is already...................!
British Jobs for British Workers! ~ Gordon Brown.
"Is it really any surprise that an economic migrant worker who is a adult aged 25 to 30 years of age, college educated, trades person,teacher or other profession in their own country, who has come to the UK to take advantage of the higher wages, free health care and chance to earn money to send home and or live here is a better prospect to employers in many cases.
A polish workers minimum wage in their own country is about £1.00 an hour compared to our £6.19, it clearly is not a level playing field when you put this person up against a young or old British worker.
I am not apologising yes we have young workers who need a kick up the ass, but we all know that if you go to an employment agency or any other major employer about 70% of the staff are non-british born, we have had about 4 million immigrants in 10 years, no surprise that the NHS is straining to cope under the avalanche of babies etc.
Now put this up against Bercoe, MPS have a basic wage of £70,000 plus huge expenses, most are millionaires and have privilged upbringings, they dont have a clue what it is like doing cleaning jobs etc.
During the 2009 parliamentary expenses scandal, it was revealed that Bercow changed the designation of his second home on more than one occasion – meaning that he avoided paying capital gains tax on the sale of two properties. He also claimed just under £1,000 to hire an accountant to fill in his tax returns. Bercow denied any wrongdoing, but agreed to pay £6,508 to cover any tax that he may have had to pay to HM Revenue and Custom"
"(Sorry I am picking on Poland) I have worked with Polish workers and people from all over the world, no issues nice people, but when as for Europe that was no level playing field either when Poland joined every EU country except UK and Eire introduced a work permit system which was kept in place for 5 years, so the despite the fact that Poland is on the German border and close to France, the bulk of immigrants came here. I am still working I have paid 38 years contributions, we paid into the system not for the rest of the world to help themselves, We have 2 children....
in conclusion with the Romanians, Bulgarians and now Latvians on their way, we have got to get out of the EU...vote UKIP the commonsense party!!!!"
"What else can you expect from a charlatan and sychophant like Cameron?
.....""Cameron and his entourage of CEOs and vice-chancellors will undoubtedly speed past the slums rapidly being cleared for the shiny new malls being built on every spare inch of India's major cities""...... He does that in the UK too."
"_AT_Strummered - to selfishly bypass the nesting nonsense, I'll repost from below:
We need to start thinking of the movement of people as being coupled with the movement of capital. If money is going from your country to another, you should be able to follow it for a job. Either open borders, or allow poor countries to protect their domestic industries. Anything else is unfair and colonial.
Sorry for limpeting on like this, Strummered."
"_AT_Strummered - BBC news reckoned he was pushing for Tesco too.
The man degrades the post of PM every time he opens his bloody mouth.
And as I understand it, he doesn't want ""Indians"" he wants ""RICH Indians.""
Just remind me what his dimwit education secretary keeps spouting about ambition for the poor?"
_AT_TheGreatRonRafferty - Yes of course we want rich Indians to invest in this country. If you don't understand this I suggest you visit the steelworks at Port Talbot or the car workers at Jaguar/Land Rover. Only ever voted Labour but completely support the aims of Cameron's visit.
"_AT_Strummered -
He loves all immigration really. Cheap labour drives down wages.
Pretending to be against it is just to fool those saps who vote Tory thinking he's tough on immigration."
_AT_Strummered - having been at the wrong end of unrelenting discrimination in the 70s and 80s I think this fratboy is barking up the wrong tree. Many talented Indians, whether rich or poor have moved on to the USA.
"_AT_ffynnongarw - That's a different issue entirely. People don't have to live in a country to ""invest"" in it. Or take profit from it, which is another way of looking at the same thing.
I'm assuming of course that Steve Jobs, as a for instance, didn't go and live in China? Am I correct in this assumption?"
"_AT_TheGreatRonRafferty - Steve Jobs was omnipresent.
It was one of the job perks of being a living god."
"_AT_ffynnongarw - Exactly. There is nothing wrong with inviting people to come and invest money in yoour country and create employment opportunities.
I hate it when the Guardian fails to understand the difference between journalism and comnplete and utter rubbish. Look at the caption of this article:
''Cameron's immigration hierarchy: Indians good, eastern Europeans bad.''
He is not inviting Indians to come here and claim benefits! Is he?
Europeans are also welcome if they bring investment or skills to the UK. But if the intention is to come here and burden the UK tax payer with the welfare bill, then NO. They are a responsibility of their respective governments, and not the British tax payer."
"_AT_TazDesmond - Its just another ""fresh meat"" article offered to the rabid anti tories. There is no logic.
I'm not Cameron's greatest fan but you are right. But, it is in the country's best interest to encouraging investment and high skilled (wage) labour, whilst discouraging large scale, low wage (low tax) immigration. Only the rabid ideologists and anti tories this type of article was designed for can't see that.
Its a bit nausiating watching him be so sycophantic but then he is trying to increase trade to a BRIC economy that has had quite a bit of bad press from the UK. It would be totally negligent to not promote and encourage British business and exports to high growth economy as British wealth and job rely on it.
Its just as ignorant to counter the simplistic Daily Mail ""all immigration is bad"" mantra with the converse. Low skill, low wage and low tax immigration is an over all cost to the British tax payer. Trying to limit costs to the tax payer and society is a responsible thing for a PM and government to do."
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"_AT_Strummered -
And this comment got the graun pick?
As used as i am to CIF's bottom-feeding standards, this has genuinely shocked me."
_AT_BelowRadar -- It seemed to sum up Cameron rather well, actually.
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"_AT_TheGreatRonRafferty - Cupertino, the Californian town where Apple's HQ is, and where Apple is the principal employer, has become an Asian majority town in under five years.
Apple has brought the productive high-IQ Chinese it wants to America in record time."
_AT_StraitIsTheGate - Loving immigration then is not the same as loving immigrants.
_AT_Strummered - Agreed. Thus is the DNA of Tories.
"_AT_missing yet again -
I'm sure the slaves working in FoxxConn agree with you............"
"I think it's more a case of:
""Skilled immigration to plug shortages in vital areas of our labour market good; unskilled immigration to take all the jobs which would otherwise have been done by young people without very much in the way of qualifications bad""
Which is fair enough really, from my perspective."
"_AT_Liberalism -
It makes total sense.
From the article:

But this is the very essence of sensible and correctly discriminating immigration policy - why should there be a open door for any number of unqualified workers (Bulgarian, white, or whatever)? The trouble is there will be thanks to our membership of the EU.
But according to the writer we musn't have any hierarchy or ""discrimination"" must we? - even when deciding immigration policy. Let's not discriminate about what's good for our economy. Just let everyone come regardless of whether it is good for our people or economy or not. This article is based on the usual Leftist nonsense that we should go through life treating everything as equally desirable regardless of intrinsic merit or practical sense."
_AT_LorddMUCK - I don't think the article is saying that. It just does seem that Eastern European immigration is looked at negatively by many sections in the media and by politicians. Why is it leftist nonsense to discuss the different attitudes towards immigration country by country?
"_AT_IsabellaMackie - ALL politicians thought EE immigration was great if their posturings on Question Time were to be believed. It was only when the banks went tits up that EE immigration took a knock from them.
You'll remember how our leaders of all parties would go on and on, salivating at the prospect of all the different restaurants it was now possible to visit - to Chinese and Indian, Italian and French, there was added all those different EE ones.
That appeared to be about the sum total of their understanding of immigration, good or bad."
"_AT_IsabellaMackie - Why is it leftist nonsense to discuss the different attitudes towards immigration country by country?
I think you need to turn that argument on its head. Why shouldn't we have differen't attitudes towards imigration on a country by country basis.
It would appear that even in the Guardian below the line there is a significant majority of comments in favour of discrimination and most clearly state their rational for preferring highly skilled immigrants.
Rather than gently implying that we are all racist bigots those on the other side of the argument should try to explain their position."
"_AT_IsabellaMackie -

ote>
If it is we know why - the last government's failure to have transition controls. And perhaps also the denial of some that the level of immigration has been detrimental to British workers, particularly at the lower end of the market. But I suppose one musn't disicrimate in favour of one's own people by having sensible immigration policy, eh?

Because country clearly isn't the issue here - the appopriateness of immigrants in terms of our economic needs is the issue. The focus on country (or race) is just cover for the usual Liberal-Left ""non-judgmental"" mindset that we musn't make any discriminations at all because to do so is intrinsically wrong. In immigration that just translates into, ""let them all come regardless"" - so the implicit accusation of racism is used as cover for instinctive hostility to any immigration control at all (on the implicit assumption that the latter also is racist).
Did it really need spelling out?"
_AT_IsabellaMackie - I agree. It's not nonsense to discuss different attitudes towards immigration country by country. Nor is it nonsense to have different attitudes. Eastern Europeans are fine with me, as it happens, though I understand why people get anxious about numbers. And there may be good reasons to worry about Roma (as opposed to Romanian) gangs.
"_AT_LorddMUCK - You write: ""the appopriateness of immigrants in terms of our economic needs is the issue.""
I agree with some of the other things you write, but I don't think economic needs ought to take absolute priority. The extent to which immigrants are likely to fit in culturally ought to be taken much more seriously.
Too many people take the preservation of culture seriously only for immigrants. It's this mindset and the policies that support it that have segregated our cities to the point where even Trevor Phillips now worries."
"_AT_LorddMUCK - Funny that. Many immigrants came because ""entrepreneurs"" brought them here, then took away their passports, stuck them in houses of multiple occupancy (and that's an understatement) and paid them peanuts by charging extortionate ""rent"" and for food (some of which was unfit for human consumption) and ""interest"" on the travel fare.
It's weird how the right turn such facts on their head to blame others. Daren't they admit to what charlatans their fellow travellers are?"
_AT_IsabellaMackie - becasue the very nature of the immigration from the two places is different. One looks at skills and our need of them and the other doesn't. But of course the article just ignores this and does what every good lefty article does- reaches for the race card.
"_AT_NewAnglican - I would say we also need to look beyond our economic needs, and those that are cultural, and consider all things- the environment, quality of life, food and energy security, everything. And we should look long term instead of at just short term fixes.
The short term economic benefits are questionable, and I believe the long term impacts of mass population increase are throughly negative."
"_AT_IsabellaMackie - How about an article on the how overimmigration has hit the working class?
A real bit of investigative journalism rather than relying on a bias report from the EU.
That's a request from a leftie as well."
"_AT_IsabellaMackie - The problem with EU immigration is that there are no filters applied to it. Anyone can come, including people who are of no use to the UK. Why would you defend that? It's completely illogical.
The immigration points system to be applied to all immigrants, regardless of their origin. That way we will get those who are useful to us, and exclude those who are not. Simple economics, designed to make the UK a more prosperous place."
"_AT_Liberalism - What about the skill shortage in the country the immigrants come from? Only if that nation has a surplus of such skills should we accept them here.
This is outsourcing education - getting other nations to train and teach their citizens to do important jobs and then snatching them away. Why can't we train our own citizens to do these jobs?
There should be a massive windfall tax on wealth, with the resulting revenue used on education all the up to university level."
"_AT_FuzzySpider -

Their problem, not ours.
In any case, if we didn't poach the best Indian talent, they still wouldn't stay in India - they'd go to the USA or somewhere else in the developed World.
Plenty of UK citizens are upping sticks and heading for Dubai, Hong Kong and Singapore, it works both ways."
"_AT_LorddMUCK -
If we're talking about the 'appropriateness' of different strands of the immigration spectrum in terms of our economic needs , then I agree with StraitIsTheGate (18 February 2013 5:23pm)

He doesn't want cheap Indian labour because that would give him another social/cultural headache his voters won't stomach. But, for private equity's principal parliamentary representative, while our economy dances in George Osborne's ongoing rendition of futile darkness, 'invisible' unskilled labour to keep employment costs down remains a no-brainer, by whatever means necessary - and that includes Bulgarians and Romanians getting their knees dirty picking our supermarket food, as well as our kids being obliged to stack shelves in exchange for benefits at the other end of the retail chain.
For the DC crew it's all win-win - most people have stopped following the money and just obsess about what's left of their own, happy to blame this week's non-taxpaying scapegoat, rather than admit this government is as rotten soft from the inside as a field of old fruit."
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo - Agreed, and the short-term benefits of different groups differ. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, for example, tend to have higher unemployment rates than Indians and Chinese. So why don't we give a higher priority to Indians and Chinese. Indeed, why don't we look at the stats for diverse groups--crime rate, levels of racism and homophobia, tendency to segregate, levels of religious extremism, and decide which immigrant groups are best for Britain.
It would be a nice change from Some leftists' point of view, which is to figure out what sort of Britain would be best for immigrants and treat those who don't go along with their plans as subhuman."
_AT_Liberalism - I don't see a problem to be honest. It makes more sense to welcome those who are skilled and hard working over those who aren't, whatever their race or nationality, and religious moderates are obviously preferable to extremists. A highly skilled/educated Romanian or Pakistani who speaks fluent English would obviously be more welcome than a lazy Indian who refused to contribute to society. Why shouldn't we prefer those who benefit us and make us prosper? Isn't that just common sense?
"_AT_NewAnglican - Well, I would rather not look at certain countries but rather at the needs of this country. If it can be demonstrated that a skill isnt available or is in short supply here then visas could be issued to plug the gap, with apprenticeships and degrees, etc, expanded to eliminate the shortage in the longer term. People should be able to come form anywhere to fill these roles but preferably on a short term basis if our population is shown to be expanding through net immigration. This is what many countries do.
I wouldn't want to pick on individual countries or religions but would rather say that a proper worldwide mix of immigrants is better than having so many from just a few countries. And we really need integration instead of segregation"
_AT_moroboshi - The problem with many of you is that you have either forgotten or completely ignore the very reasons at the heart of the European Union, which were ironed out in the Maastricht treaty well over 20 years ago. It's about FREE movement of goods, capital AND PEOPLE. It's about being part of a UNION. The UNITED Kingdom is such because it is a UNION of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, within which exactly the same principles apply - and then some. If you start to apply 'filters' you negate the very idea, so you should abandon it altogether - with all that it entails, and the result wouldn't be just the end of immigration (and emigration), you can be bloody well sure your losses will be more painful on the whole and way into the future.
"_AT_NewAnglican -
Why don't you just come out ans say that you don't want any muslims in Britain it would be much easier then naming all of those anti muslim steriotypes. By the way alot of indians(only hindus no muslims) would have hard time living up to your liberal standarts, giving the rising
hindu fundamentalism in india."
"What, exactly, is the problem with a country deciding who should be allowed in?
It's all academic since we can't stop EU immigration, but it's very telling that the Guardian is more concerned about Indian professionals taking middle-class jobs than Eastern Europeans taking working-class jobs.
Oh, and stop saying opposition to over immigration is 'racist'. It's not."
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_AT_StVitusGerulaitis - If we left the EU we could control the EU immigration.
_AT_JoeSmithie - If we left the EU, the UK would be one vast slum with pockets of affluence in gated communities......But you're right nobody in their right mind would want to come here.
"_AT_Strummered - If we left the EU, the UK would be one vast slum with pockets of affluence in gated communities....
So no change there then, welcome to London"
_AT_Strummered - Sort of like South Africa.
"_AT_JoeSmithie -
""If we left the EU we could control the EU immigration""
More British people in Europe then Europeans living in Britain.
Should we all come back?"
_AT_nocausetoaddopt - They never think about that do they? Their outlook being rather parochial.
"_AT_JoeSmithie -

And there'd be even fewer jobs."
"We" (I assume you mean millionaire politicians) could anyway. Any thoughts on why millionaire politicians might not want to?
"_AT_Strummered -
""They never think about that do they?""
They rarely leave Ambridge Strum."
_AT_StVitusGerulaitis - Exactly. To read the Guardian, you'd think Britain's immigration policy should exist to serve immigrants rather than Britain. And while columnists constantly stress the importance to immigrants of preserving their culture, they act as if it's racist for Britons to care about their own.
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt 18 February 2013 5:13pm. Backlink by cifFix.
Did you not mean Tunbridge Wells?"
_AT_Strummered - Can the UK not be both out of the EU and run along left wing lines? Or is leaving the EU only to be associated with UKIP and the Tories?
_AT_nocausetoaddopt - erm.... how about the sensible middle ground that you know exists that would involve each country deciding if they actually want or need its immigrants? Or do you only deal in black and white?
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo -
""Or do you only deal in black and white?""
What do you mean by that?
In contrast to a lot of the teenage hysterics I encounter on here anytime immigration is mentioned I pointed out a fact. A fact, which shows, immigration works both ways.
You will be hard pushed to find a more ""sensible middle ground"" than that."
"_AT_cadmusandeuropa -
Always been reluctant to go to Tunbridge Wells through fear of being chased out by the locals with pitchforks and garden sheers on account of my non Kentish accent."
What is this 'guardian pick' all about? How on earth does the first post on this thread 'contribute to the debate'? It's just insulting Cameron.
"_AT_StVitusGerulaitis -
"" It's just insulting Cameron""
Reason enough for me."
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt -

Eeek- just noticed the ""black and white"" bit which looks like a bad pun but wasn't intended. By black and white I mean the sort of thinking that says we can only adopt extreme measures at either end of the scale. For example, if someone opposes unlimited immigration we then we counter by saying that the only alternative is no immigration. I don't think anyone is advocating that, just either balanced immigration which would still mean hundreds of thousands of people coming here, or immigration according to the country's demonstrable need.
So I don't think saying that every British person working in the EU would have to come home is the sensible middle ground."
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo 18 February 2013 7:46pm. Backlink by cifFix.
i think _AT_nocausetoadopt was just pointing out the absurdity of the whole immigration policy idiocy"
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo -
Didn't wish to come over harsh cheese lover.
Seems the moment immigration is mentioned, the ill-informed get hysterics. Some mug downstairs is even going on about stolen war memorials. Its pathetic.
And its normally those that are in awe of ""market forces""
Would market forces not then dictate that if there was no work for them here they would not come?
And if the locals in a town had better things to do than work at the abattoir for example, should they not be grateful to the folks from wherever who come over and get stuck in? As most locals are.
If its not that, its ""the pressure on social services"".
The same social services they have contributed to, otherwise they wouldn't qualify for it. Would it not be an idea to improve social services for everyone.
A few months ago it was the Greeks. Like an unemployed Greek chap wants to swap his sunny dole que for a drizzly one here.
The whole argument is bollocks.
If the government wants to do something about the issue it should introduce a program of training our young folk to do the jobs required then people would see no reason to come here.
""Full Employment"" two filthy words in Westminster for the past 30 years.
I like cheese too."
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt 18 February 2013 8:24pm. Backlink by cifFix.
If the government wants to do something about the issue it should introduce a program of training our young folk to do the jobs required then people would see no reason to come here.
""Full Employment"" two filthy words in Westminster for the past 30 years.
well said sir, bravo!"
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt - _AT_nocausetoaddopt - No harshness felt. But I do think that if people are in favour of immigration, it is helpful not assume who it is they are debating with. Most people assume it is with Tories but I'm practically the opposite- I think mass immigration undermines education and training of British people, and lowers wages and increases inequality.

Why are all British people too good for bad jobs? Some are not particularly bright and welcome jobs like that. However, wages have gone down due to the oversuppply of labour in these fields. Now, for people from abroad, saving money to spend later in their home country, this amount might be enough, and they are willing to live in grotty conditions to mange to save- a house in their home country might be very cheap. But to a British person that same money isnt going to get them very far, adn they dont want to live 10 to a room in order to make sure that wage gets them a reasonable standard of living in this country. So economically, they are on a different labour curve to those from cheaper countries and this gives the appearance of laziness- it isn't, however.

No, that was to do with taking money out of Greece becuase they feared Greece would leave the Euro- they were putting it into London property. london property continues to buck the trend precisely because of foreign investors.

Why bother when they can import the skills? Industry doesnt want to pay taxes to pay for better education when it doesnt rely on British skills

Impossible to acheive unless you make the unemployed more employable. But again, they don't really need to when recruiting internationally."
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo -
My cheese loving friend.
People are not "" in favour of immigration"" or ""migration"" Its a simple fact.And the reason for "" British people too good for bad jobs"" is its non-inclusive and non focused education system.And the expectancy, that we can all become millionaires by buying and selling the same houses to each-other. Its a pile of bollocks.
There are many quite valid reasons for British people not have taken on jobs that were available then, but if they had have done, then these folks would not have come. If now, after the fact, its added to the issue then its a bit rich to complain now about them being here.
""Why bother when they can import the skills? Industry doesnt want to pay taxes to pay for better education when it doesnt rely on British skills""
The education system is not conducive to industry in the UK. I have a feeling this is deliberate policy. My skills however, have been ""exported"". I post from abroad. And enjoy all the benefits that any local would, un-begrudgingly.
And if you really think that full employment is in-achievable you must either have fallen for the rhetoric, or be under 40.
Gruyere."
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt -

I should have said unlimited mass immigration, which is what we have here. It corresponds not to need or want, just the fact that the average wage here is higher than in eastern Europe.

.
No- people in all countries have a range of abilities and desire for what level of jobs they want to do. I dont see a need for bringing in poor foreigners to shovel our shit up behind us.

.
It depends who's doing the complaining- those at the botom end of the scale who have seen their wages lowered didn't have a choice in the first place.

Any country that wants the highest GDP/capita would ensure it paid for an education system that was equal to the best in the world. We don't- and I wonder why. It isn't as though we rely on home grown businesses or talent.

The world the over 40s remember is long gone. We compete with a fair few more countries than we did then, and we're far more open to the world markets. Keeping wages at a level we expect when we have nothing special to give to the world is unrealistic. All we rely on is access to the EU, our reputation as a place to stash money, and the promise of unlimited cheap labour.
Enjoy your cheese"
_AT_nocausetoaddopt - If the UK left the EU I'm sure the EU would let you stay on...you could apply for political asylum. I'm sure it would be granted given that without the EU the UK would soon qualify as a small country in the developing world....
"_AT_Strummered -

Like it isn't already - thanks to the EU."
_AT_nocausetoaddopt - the people of Anglesey would love to continue working in their local abattoir/meat packing works using locally farmed meat but the Dutch owners prefer to close it and produce the meat somewhere else, wonder where the meat will come from and indeed what it is?
"This is just misleading. The government's policy, as far as EU legislation allows it to have one, is broadly correct. Skilled migrants or those who are going to pay for an education before leaving are welcome, unskilled migrants who arrive without work are not welcome. That is an entirely sensible position and one we see in the current policy.
Unskilled Eastern European immigrants looking for low paid work are being discouraged whilst Indian Businessman and students are being encouraged. The former create social problems (see the housing crisis in newham) and drive down wages whilst the latter bring investment. The highly skilled from Eastern Europe or Eastern Europeans bringing investment are as equally welcome as those from India. Race and country of origin have nothing to do with it beyond EU regulation that forces the UK to accept all EU migrants.
This article really misses the point which is that Britain's member ship of the EU has opened the UK up to mass unskilled immigration which has contributed to a housing crisis and depressed wages. However, skilled immigration is good."
"_AT_typhoonboom - You failed to mention that skilled workers are fully self-supporting, do not drain local resources, tend to leave if their work drys up, and very very rarely are involved in crime.
I have yet to hear of Romanian engineers or Polish doctors stealing war memorials for their scrap metal value, nor have I heard of Indian software engineers organising crime syndicats (but maybe they are too clever to be caught).
You hit the problem on the head: immigration policy should allow for numbers to be tweaked to ensure that there is not an over-supply of either skilled or unskilled workers entering the country. Unfortunately, EU rules do not allow for this..."
"_AT_KnaveOfHearts -
""I have yet to hear of Romanian engineers or Polish doctors stealing war memorials for their scrap metal value""
Implying no doubt that it were unskilled Romanian or Polish immigrants.
Those that eat our swans."
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Wow, I get to be the first to comment on the latest perverse offering from the Guardian on immigration. Amazing how its still somehow to do with race even though the govn't is now according an easier welcome to Indians than some eastern Europeans. I wonder if Alana has ever tried to work in a "developing country", because I have on a few occasions. The number of hoops one needs to jump through, proving no local can do the job, lots of form fillings, etc All developed countries also have restrictions on non-EU economic migrations, I have also worked in the US and have several friends who have done so for many years. Again, they process is long and tough to prove that you are not taking a job from a local. No none of these systems are perfect, but the basic premise that a nation state should act in the best interests of its citizens does not to me seem to be a difficult or crazy one. Of course we should welcome those who want to invest in or use services in this country (eg education), whilst seeking to limit low skilled economic migrants whose contribution to the economy is at best marginal and quite likely negative overall. I would hold these views at any time, but even more so in a time of austerity, when funding for many basic services is under enormous pressure and when we have many unemployed or looking for more hours.
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A very sensible position.
Time to re-examine the PR man as "social liberal"?
_AT_thincat1 - err, how is that relevant?
Well, yes. Obviously.
_AT_TruffleWednesday - And that's the way it should be
"Surely it immigration should be based on the sort of people we need not a Labour styled open door policy.
The last thing this country needs is more people coming here to scrounge benefits and NHS tourism."
_AT_JoeSmithie - and the last thing any other country needs is our NHS hoovering up their qualified medics
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"_AT_JoeSmithie -
What a great idea, if only there were a system that conservatives believed could somehow regulate the allocation and flow of factors of production.
Maybe we could call it 'the free market' or some such.
When I see a tory (or any neo-liberal for that matter) demand the parallel regulation of incoming foreign goods and capital I'll take them seriously on 'immigration' until such times they're nothing but spoilt infantile narcissists who want the fruits of competition without having to compete."
"The message Labour sent out was: we will let any Tom, Dick or Harry into the country, because they'll vote for us at the next election.
Now call me back if I'm out of line, but the Tory message seems entirely reasonable while the Labour message is a betrayal of the very people they purport to represent.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's certainly the way it looks from where I'm standing."
"_AT_Liberalism - The message Labour sent out was: we will let any Tom, Dick or Harry into the country, because they'll vote for us at the next election.
...............
statistics ."
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India is extremely important for UK because it's one of the largest investors as well as Indian companies are the biggest employers in UK unlike bulgaria and romania.Relationship with india is extremely critical for UK's future.
"_AT_abhisheknayak - So long as they don't think it means we need to therefore take a significant proportion of their 1.2bn people. India will be screwed up in the future- they will always be an environmental burden on the planet and will never be carbon neutral as they have too many people and not enough land.
We ourselves are almost as bad with our population density and much worse with our emissions. Being expected to just keep on taking more and more people on the question grounds that it might help keep us richer is absolute folly in the long run."
is different... For them the world if populated by Races, some superior and more beneficial than others ( The vitamin and nutrient intake paradigm applied in races), and they distinguish between scum races, rich races, superior races and unwanted races... any difference with the Arian Nazis? Oh I forgot that we fought them fiercely along with the now hated EU allies as partners, in order to abolish Racism and the criminal abuse of human rights that we want now to abolish under the conservatives. If this is not a 360 degree spin of the British society and culture then what is it? How much debt fear do we need in order to shape inhumane perceptions?
"_AT_Theo Jan - umm, spin 360 degrees and you end up pointing in the same direction that you started.
I think you may be a little confused."
"_AT_Theo Jan 18 February 2013 4:23pm. Backlink by cifFix.

or a left-wing pragmatist. I guess pragmatism about immigration and government influence over the supply and demand of labour is a needless and petty concern from which one can detach oneself when sufficiently wealthy"
_AT_TruffleWednesday - If you spin an object in 3D space 360 degrees you end up with a mirror image of the same object. SO Britain against racism...Britain for racism. Simple concept ...!
_AT_kleineEisbar - Regardless of how rich or poor you are, if your morals and judgements depend on how much you earn, then that says a lot about yourself. Ethics are not dependent, on supply and demand, but on the way a culture is viewing the world and itself, regardless of monetary values. I am not a left-wing pragmatist...but I guess this is the observation of a one track conservative mind that seeks to divide the world to left wing and right wing, in order to process today's complex issues! But the worlds views are more complicated than that! I am glad you find refuge in right-left wing ideology labelling to a comment that made you feel uncomfortable!
"_AT_Theo Jan -
^ 0 degrees
> 90 degrees
v 180 degrees
< 270 degrees
^ 360 degrees. Same as 0 degrees.
Mirror symmetry is not the same as rotational symmetry. You don't get mirror symmetry from spinning anything unless is also has internal symmetry. Which doesn't count."
_AT_TruffleWednesday - An argument for the sake of argument! :-) Check your references, or just spin a 3D object 360 degrees. If you refer to a line on 2D space, its another matter and your comment applies. But I guess your opinions are flat and 2D :-). More feedback on the issue of the article and less criticism just for the sake of it!
"_AT_Theo Jan - Just span a stapler 360 degrees. Same as when it started.
Now you try it. You could use the straw man you have built.
You know the one. This one:"
"_AT_Theo Jan - This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the fact that he happened to be in India at the time.
It's just a form of sucking up and commercial promotion of the UK.
Also, you're not correct about the 360° thing, sorry."
"Spot on.
We need to start thinking of the movement of people as being coupled with the movement of capital. If money is going from your country to another, you should be able to follow it for a job. Either open borders, or allow poor countries to protect their domestic industries. Anything else is unfair and colonial."
_AT_ibnalinklisi - Why is it that the word colonial has become the last bastion of those trying to make a ridiculous argument?
"_AT_typhoonboom - What else do you call countries relying on the threat of violence to force other countries to buy their wares and go along with their policies?
I'm not relying on any word; nor is my argument ridiculous."
"This is all political guff for the Daily Mail. Privately, I'm sure Cameron is even more cold-eyed about it. It's all about economic advantage, as you rightly put it, and if any Romanians or Bulgarians can fill the available vacancies, they will be (and are) welcomed by left and right alike - not that they can now be refused.
And there is a key difference. Indians have to be actively welcomed to come here and, if I'm not mistaken, can be legally turned away. , so in this speech he is trying to correct yet another policy gaffe which affects relations with a major economic player. Romanians and Bulgarians cannot be turned away under EU law, so they can come regardless of their potential to benefit the country. Alienating minor economic players, as those countries are, is in Cameron's mind a political price worth paying to appease Tory diehards adamantly opposed to the EU and the laws it obliges us to observe.
It's ugly realpolitik, I'm afraid. I suspect Labour would say much the same."
"_AT_stupormundi 18 February 2013 4:24pm. Backlink by cifFix.

Is there any evidence this is the case? Students from the subcontinent are always playing off one western country against another, when Britain is down they threaten to take their business to Australia and the United States.
At the same time, they're telling Australia that it's superfluous and they can go to Britain or America anytime they like.
Certainly, that's true of the most intelligent and wealthy subcontinental students, but for the most part they welcome the relatively low fees they pay in Britain, Australia and New Zealand.
If they could afford to go to an American university, they already would have"
"_AT_kleineEisbar - I heard that it was indeed the case that admissions from the Subcontinent were down since the London Met debacle. However, I think more and more universities are taking their courses to the client countries to get around the problem.
You take a rather dim view of British universities in comparison with their US counterparts. The best of British are on a par with the best American institutions, if the international league tables are anything to go by."
_AT_kleineEisbar - From The Subcontinent there is a fall in number of students coming to UK as now one cannot get Post study Visa for 2 years after completion of course. The decrease has been from approx 30000 to 20000 students form India (as per BBC stats). Anyways it is what ppl want so whats the harm in it.
_AT_stupormundi - Sorry to say but in the field of Business, Computer Science and Engineering British Univerisities have fallen behind of US. I agree with you if u talk about medicine,pychology, philosophy.
"_AT_stupormundi -
<Romanians and Bulgarians cannot be turned away under EU law, so they can come regardless of their potential to benefit the country. >
You are missing the main area of concern over EU immigration to the UK. about to be exacerbated by the removal of restrictions from Bulgaria and Romania at the end of this year.
Already child benefit is being paid to tens of thousands of Polish children who have remained in Poland while their parents work here.
After Dec 2013 here is the situation: take a family with children turning up in the UK from any of the EU countries.
They would not need to show they had any job to go to, any accommodation, any finances. The local authority would be obliged to find accommodation and within a few months the family would be in receipt of the whole range of benefits.
It is important to realise that The UK is unlike most other EU countries in that this family would start to receive most of these benefits WITHOUT having to pay anything into the system.
If tens of thousands of families like this arrive in the UK into areas already overcrowded and with welfare resources already under strain one can just imagine the resentment.
I've been in Romania and talked to many people there and I have to say this:
the whole idea of allowing countries with completely different wage structures, minimal welfare state provision, unresolved problems with corruption and an alienated minority (the Roma) unrestricted access to live, work and be entitled to many welfare benefits in the UK is not wise and is frankly unsustainable
Given that Eastern European immigrants would be mainly unskilled or semi-skilled, even if they did manage to get jobs (more difficult now than at the time of the massive Polish immigration), the tax intake would be small compared with the money on benefits paid out.
Cameron is already in negotiation with some other EU countries to try to limit access to benefits for new arrivals."
"_AT_kleineEisbar -
""At the same time, they're telling Australia that it's superfluous and they can go to Britain or America anytime they like.

Certainly, that's true of the most intelligent and wealthy subcontinental students, but for the most part they welcome the relatively low fees they pay in Britain, Australia and New Zealand.

If they could afford to go to an American university, they already would have
""
The difference in fees between a UK and a US uni is basically non-existent. Some US unis are cheaper than UK unis actually, and no, I'm not comparing inferior US unis to superior UK unis.
Now obviously this depends on what the international student is studying. UK unis tend to have different fees for their international students, based on subject of study (ie engineering students might pay a higher amount, the highest amount), whereas US unis generally charge a uniform rate. Also, US unis genearlly include general fees, that cover access to sports facilities, clubs, societies, library printing costs, in their fees, ie, you pay one lump sum, with almost no additional tacked on costs, whereas UK unis generally don't do this.
Also, it is generally easier for international students to find on-campus work at US unis compared to at UK unis. Then consider the cost of living. Cost of living is in general, cheaper in the US, compared to the UK, specifically food and accomodation, which is hardly surprising, given the geographic size of the US compared to the UK.
So, in general, it isn't cheaper to study in the UK, compared to the US, for international (Indian) students."
"_AT_patrick111 -
""- Sorry to say but in the field of Business, Computer Science and Engineering British Univerisities have fallen behind of US. I agree with you if u talk about medicine,pychology, philosophy.""
The truth of that matter really is that anyone wanting to study CS, including Brits, should go to the US, if s/he has the opportunity."
_AT_scubaM10 - Very interesting. Another of the structural flaws at the heart of the EU project.
"_AT_scubaM10 - If I go on the dole and decide to live in Bucharest, the British government pays it for me.
I understood that this reciprocates."
"Or the naked courting of the Commonwealth Nations as the first world wide web of its time by both DC and Queen.
They know we can control how many of the Common Wealth nations nationals, that actually has made far more contribution to this country than any, come to live here than the EU, the reason it is now more attractive. For over a century of association with the Common Wealth with a population number of more than 1.6 billion people, about a 1 - 2 million settled here compared to EU, the Poles alone is near the Common Wealth number."
_AT_MeandYou - Commonwealth contribution? What contribution? The Commonwealth is another burden from the days of The Empire.
_AT_fredwest2010 - So all the raw materials and cheap labour that produce it in the colonies which Britain got nearly for free was a burden? I very often do not reply to your likes.
You are saying this like it's a bad thing. I am struggling to see why. I can see your overall point that saying all Bulgarians are bad while or Indians are good is arguably racist but that particular sentence does not really work in they way you intended it for me.
"So untrue and a lingering misconception.
Unlike the 'mall explosion' of the mid 90s in the West, India is bypassing the malls phenomenon by and large.
There simply aren't malls on every spare inch. You would have to travel some considerable distance to get to one.
Plueeez, dont perpetuate this whole India rushing to malls thing. And slums giving way to them is such a caricature."

_AT_SquirellNut - yeah, it is disappointing when you realise that North Korea is not the socialist workers paradise the leaflet said it was, but this article is about Britain.
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"_AT_SquirellNut -

Bulgarians and Rumanians, apparently"
Pretty sure a Dalit from the Punjab or a Roma from Bucharest would have a slightly different definition of what constitutes a "bigoted class ridden hellhole".
"_AT_typhoonboom - Wahey! the right wing North Korea putdown!
Bingo!
Thankyou. I've just won a clock radio."
"_AT_Vraaak - ""Thankyou. I've just won a clock radio.""
I won a Juicer . Made in South Korea too."
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"Er... and this is a bad thing is it?
We should want immigrants with no skills, little or no English, who have limited capacity or intention to adapt and who bring few if any skillsorv money - being a religious bigot opposed to our entire culture being a bonus?
Personally with the economy in tatters and millions on the dole I see no reason for any further immigration from anywhere at present, other than a small number of carefully selected high value incomers who have jobs waiting for them.
It works fine for Canada, Australia and others and I think the empire guilt trip is well past its sell-by date.
We don't need any more waiters, cleaners, kebab shop owners or plumbers."
It's not the policy that is the problem, it is the whipping up of frenzied xenophobia which has been a pastime of papers like the Daily Mail since they first slithered off the press.
"In your own imagination, perhaps -- can't say I've noticed any
(except perhaps ongoing nastiness about Germany)."
"_AT_MiddleEnglandLefty 18 February 2013 4:38pm. Backlink by cifFix.
i think there is an intention to whip up frenzied xenophobia - one just has to read the trevor kavanagh article which seems dedicated to such a whipping up"
"_AT_Heretica - 'can't say I've noticed any?
SHOULD HAVE GONE TO SPECSAVERS"
_AT_bunkermad -- Come to think on it, perhaps you're right -- I'd overlooked the degree of unprovoked, bigoted hatred towards Russia there is in the UK mass-media. Guess they're appeasing the Yanks.
_AT_Heretica - You are surely joking? the Express and Mail run xenophobic stories about immigrants on a daily basis, an irrefutable fact, not a matter of opinion.
"Recently a slum was razed in Bangalore making way for a mall and the people were left homeless. The mistreatment of the people was shocking. An young girl with her toy gun says it all :
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/ejipura-residents-may-be-allowed-to-stay-on-till-academic-yearend/article4333260.ece"
"_AT_Nivedita -
Slums have no place in modern world...how could we allow our fellow humans to live in such a filthy and undignified way..
Slums must be demolished and the slum dwellers must be rehabilitated with proper housings"
"_AT_abhisheknayak -

Agree. Such houses for evacuees of another slum in the city had only three walls, no taps nor toilets. But we have lots of malls as the article says.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/278356/ragigudda-slum-dwellers-face-rodents.html"
_AT_abhisheknayak - slums eventually become much nicer organically.
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Its the new
"_AT_SquirellNut -


There's no such thing as 'new racism'. It's either racist or it isn't. So, in what way is this racist?"
"_AT_ItsAnOutrage2 - The media portrayal of

Romanians is racism ."
"_AT_SquirellNut -

Don't go to sleep. Try and stay with me.
In what way is it racist?"
"_AT_ItsAnOutrage2 - To portray a whole nation as populated with neer do wells on the make ..
I think that qualifies as racism.."
"_AT_SquirellNut -

It would certainly be national or probably even cultural stereotyping, but why does it necessarily have anything to do with race?"
_AT_ItsAnOutrage2 - read the article .
_AT_ItsAnOutrage2 - Ha ..bigotry then ..
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"I find this a sophisticated and intelligent review of changing attitudes towards migration.
As Alana notes, culture rather than race, determines the hierarchy of good versus unwelcome immigrants. The UK is now clearly sending out messages that say, ""Indians come, Romanians stay out"" although it is the latter nationality that have inalienable rights to live and work here.
A good and thoughtful article."
_AT_LiberalHeretic - Guardian pick applauding the article even though a whole stream of posters demolish it in detail above. How’d a though it eh?
"_AT_EllisWyatt -
uncanny innit that the two picks above are in synch with the guardian world view...
loving diversity in all its forms, that's the guardian....just so long as it's not diversity of opinion."
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"_AT_LiberalHeretic -
<A good and thoughtful article>
No, a very shallow article completely failing to address the problems of large scale EU immigration and benefits entitlements in the UK."
_AT_EllisWyatt - Don't forget the silent majority.
_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - C'mon Dr John, withdraw that, the Guardian encourages and presents diverse opinion, surely that's why you read it and post here. I find your posts intelligent although I don't agree with them, please don't turn into one of the "liberal conspiracy" drones.
"_AT_MiddleEnglandLefty -
sorry, i disagree. the guardian does not present a diverse opinion.
it promotes its own world view where smiley faced immigrants come to the uk to do back breaking work for little money and it has no impact at all, whatsoever, on the uk working class (and if they complain they are clearly racists)....indeed, they all dance and sing songs together at the end of the day to 'celebrate diversity'...
...in fact, in guardianworld immigrants are even better than the wwc because they have interesting food, dances and textiles (but then, most guardian writers don't live in 'vibrant', 'diverse' areas).
i'm not a 'liberal conspiracy' type, but the guardian does (like papers on the right) promote only its own agenda and portrays all those who disagree as idiots/psychopaths/ne'erdowells (and, of course, on a thread like this, 'racists')....and it has been caught out being slapdash with the facts and figures on a number of occasions...
...you could put that down to piss poor research/journalism but, as most graun writers were educated in at least a minor public school and a jolly good university, then that seems less likely, leaving only deliberate obfuscation as the reason.
a significant number of posts on here question the levels of immigration, the sources and the type of incomer we should try to attract...but those were not reflected in the picks....funny that innit?...
...just as when a guardian staffer comes on to a thread, they never contradict the atl line...
so no, not a lib conspiracy type, but one who does question the way that things are manipulated in the guardian to make it appear that there is only one pov."
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_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - Sorry couldn't resist, but they have had articles that support limiting immigration as well, you know. They've had articles from Israeli government figures as well as Palestinian leaders, you would not see such diversity of opinion on other sites. I do live in a vibrant diverse area and I love it.
"I'm all for de-coupling immigration from race. But then, I'm not a liberal-progressive.
Liberal-progressives labour under a burden: that darker-skinned people must be afforded greater opportunities, and allowed more slack, than white-skinned people.
Litlle wonder that Cameron, that arch liberal-progressive, is so keen on ignoring the immigration cap he has elsewhere and at other times expounded, when it comes to Indians from India: they are darker skinned people, you see, and they must be afforded greater freedoms and opportunities when seeking to live in Britain, than the lighter skinned people who will be arriving from the Balkans.
That, and because liberal-progressives are temperamentally inclined towards neoliberalism: what, they ask, has race to do with it (or such whimsical concepts as culture or compatability) when faced with the opportunity to lure rich people from very far away to Britain, even as you contemplate restricting the entry of poor people from much closer to hand?
All in all, with liberal-progressives in charge in Britain, the poor people from the Balkans dont stand much of a chance, but rich people from India are obviously to be welcomed with glad cries.
Actually, race has nothing to do with it: money has everything to do with it. At which point, I find myself in agreement with the author of this piece.
Or not quite: I say No to immigration, period. Let neither monetary considerations, nor tender-hearted liberal-progressive post-cololonial guilt, have anything to do with it."
"I think the author misunderstands what is being proposed.
The immigration policy Romania and Bulgaria will face is less restrictive than that applied to India (or to the USA, for that matter - or to any non-EEA country).
The point is that it is more restrictive than is applied to the rest of the EU."
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"Unemployment amongst graduates and the young seems to be at an all time high...so would someone enlighten me regarding this article because I don't get it.
Don't call me a racist don't call me a xenophobe just enlighten me on the facts."
"_AT_brookben - Basically, technology is spreading all over the world and so is good education- in fact, we sell quite a bit of it. But, despite this spread, we are still expecting ourselves to remain much richer than the developing world. Globalisation was supposed to make our plastic crap stuff much cheaper- but now developing countries are buying up resources and so making things more expensive- hence the recent inflation. Also, developing countries are competing with us through lower wages, and we need to either be better or become cheaper like them.
So..... we look for short term fixes to remain richer. One is to invite rich people here. It doesnt really make us richer but because some of there individuals are so rich they bump up our average so we look like we are. Another is to bring in well qualified people. It doesn't make US richer, but they can do alot of the better paid jobs and since those jobs are here we again look richer. Another is to allow unqualified people here. This doesnt make us look richer and in fact brings down our average wages but on the otherhand it makes our industries more competitive and makes the owners richer.
Overall, it isn't about the young or the unemployed graduates- they don't matter to people looking at spreadsheets and trying to pay off the country's big debt. The people here who the government should be working for and trying to make better off don't come into it at all."
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo - Our economic woes are due to the neo liberal free market. If Blair, Cameron or Miliband had any moral fibre they would insist on these countries paying a wage which is comparable to the profits being made...
If these new economic giants such as India do not resolve their poverty and low wages protectionism should be applied by boycotting their goods and services.
Too late now we have sold all our industry because that's how they wanted to destroy the working class."
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"I'm fed up with this ""brightest and best"" rhetoric from all sides. India, Romania, Germany, Ghana - they all need their brightest and best more than we do. And vice versa. That's how simple life is.
As for some portmanteau bullshit called ""xeno-racism"" - oh what irony, the moral high-ground has turned out to be a fathomless shallow."
"Trevor Kavanagh appears to confuse Roma, the much-persecuted group of Indian origin, and Romanians, the latinate people . Either that or he's dog-whistling. Not that there's any excuse for stereotyping either group.
What I don't get is why people who self-describe as libertarian, or at least anti-totalitarian can call for the free movement of money and goods but not of people, especially if the said people decline to conform to their prescribed societal norms."
"""the ability to integrate in today's Britain is based less on how you look and more on whether or not you are deemed culturally compatible.""
1. What's wrong with prioritizing people who are more culturally compatible? Our immigration policy is our immigration policy, not the immigrants'. Giving priority to people who fit in easily is important for social harmony.
2. That being said, the sentence doesn't make sense. The ""ability"" to integrate does not depend on whether you are ""deemed"" compatible. It exists independently."
_AT_NewAnglican - I agree. Left wing and socialist countries rely on social cohesion and sameness. People are happy to pay large amounts of their wages as tax, knowing that some will go to others, only so long as they feel goodwill towards those others. When countries split into separate communities this is harder to maintain.
So right. Very good piece. Our politicians are elitist and consider that anyone who hasn't got a degree to be worthless! Not surprising considering their backgrounds. And when they take advice they form a committee comprising University Professors and senior Civil Servants, who are also elitist, or at least, out of touch with 'real' life. (Disclaimer: I do understand the economic argument)
Once again I advance that the thing that is wrong with Guardian's CiF are the self-contradicting commentators whose idea of journalism is so perverse their articles are rendered illogical and deserve no merit whatsoever.
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Racism, xenophobia and bigotry are such utterly pointless pursuits. We are on a huge rock floating through the cosmos. Yet people think it's important to claim pieces of land as their own. I hope it comforts all the racist creatures on the planet that this world will keep evolving and becoming more diverse, now and long after they are pushing up daisies, despite their futile hate mongering. How pathetic to spend your one chance at life so full of hatred.
"_AT_skintightjesus - That sounds a laudable idea as long as you don't introduce racists and people who hate you into the country.
...and by the way most of last year the Guardian spent sometime explaining to the readership how racist a number of Eastern European countries are.
Who are we to believe the only racists are us of course."
_AT_skintightjesus - but the movement from where we are now to wage equalisation across the world needs managing, right?
_AT_brookben. Where in my comment do I state the only racists are us?
_AT_skintightjesus - You didn't...it wasn't aimed at you so don't take it personally...it's called irony.
"_AT_brookben. Irony would mean that the implied meaning of your statement is in opposition to its literal meaning, this doesn't really work with ""who are we to believe the only racists are us of course"" which is more a rhetorical question.
If the statement wasn't aimed at me, then the whole response should not have been posted as a reply to my original statement."
_AT_skintightjesus - Ok I will go along with rhetorical.
_AT_brookben - Actually those who hate us nowadays DON'T come from Europe. Think about it, it's not that difficult.
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_AT_Lillysid - or with a "a senior lecturer in cultural and social analysis"?
"It's simply about skin colour. It's a depressing truth about the world that most people are unable to to prevent skin colour from influencing their language, their emotions, their actions, and all too often their core beliefs.
We used to have racism. Now we have ""positive racism""."
"Dear UK residents,
Let me just say that I am a highly educated Bulgarian as I have a masters degree in economics. Above all I agree with the concerns you all have about the waves of immigrants from new EU member countries. I'd have them as well if I were you. I've lived in England for 2 years and have quite a lot of british friends who share the believe that foreigners would come and take their jobs. My point of view on the whole problem is that first of all it's highly exaggerated. Bulgaria has a population of 7 mln. so you do the maths how many would come to the UK. Second of all is that more than a quarter of all the people in an working age in Bulgaria have a higher degree of education. Compare that with the stats in India. Don't want to sound prejudice but my country has a lot of achievments in areas of science, health and countless others. I don't want people who have no idea what the country looks like or ever been here to tell others that Bulgarians are miserable pickpockets and so on. Yes we do have such a social group in our country but so do you. But we also have many great minds and hard-working young people who if given the chance will display great results in all areas of business and industry. Anyway I wish not to change anyone's opinion. I just want you to think about the fact there are around 20,000 UK citizens living permanently in Bulgaria. This shows that the country is attractive. We had a briton who raped an 8-year old in Bulgaria but we've never called all the British rapists. No on the contrary we respect you and look for the same in return. THAT'S ALL."
"_AT_Boris123 -
We know brother, some folks over here still think the Eastern Bloc is the evil empire, and you and your kin will eat our babies.
They seem to forget that the old communist countries had some of the highest standards of education anywhere.
Don't worry friend, we know when our psycho politicians are playing the divide and rule game!"
_AT_Boris123 - Well, it's a very real concern that just in the last 10 years 500,000 Poles have flocked to the UK. Unfortunately, many people who read the tabloids are too stupid to "play the ball and not the man".
"_AT_Boris123 - Was there a time Bulgarians didn't trust their government and media outlets...the media is now so distrusted in this country that you could be working for the Guardian and are British.
People can't work out what is truth what is lies."
"_AT_MediaEnema -

No, that's what you tell yourself they think as a convenient way of not bothering to try to understand viewpoints different to your own."
_AT_Boris123 - bloody good input
"_AT_Boris123 - I see where you are coming from. I invite you, and others like you, to consider making a career in my country - India. We too need the best minds in the world, to ensure that we have robust economic growth.
People from any culture find it easy to assimiliate into Indian society."
_AT_Boris123 - Well said.
Just Like the sun never set on the Empire.
_AT_MediaEnema - are you sure it's not you who doesn't realise it was all over a long time ago?
Excuse me for any spelling mistakes. believe- belief. SORRY
I get the impression that some people on here wish the headline was the other way around. Then they could really get apoplectic with rage and the Guardian could draw out the subject for weeks with numerous articles on the inherent racism of the Tory party.
"Statistically speaking, that's actually true. Indians often perform well academically, are known to work hard, and actually contribute to the economy. Leicester being a prime example of that.
Sorry that Indian and Chinese communities fall far below the Guardian's expectations of ""needy"" minority group who deserve special treatment and wrapping in cotton wool. You just can't stand the fact that some immigrant groups are more successful than others in what they bring to Britain!
This article scream of divisiveness to me, so perhaps you should reconsider calling it a hierarchy."
"It is curious how immigrants and others, including foreign criminals can get into the UK by bypassing the immigration control, and exploiting the system by declaring themselves as 'Self Employed'. Is it not curious that many, if not all 'Big Issue' sellers one sees in our High Streets are often Eastern Europeans from the Old Warzaw Pact States. So -
(a) Did they gain status as 'Big Issue sellers by claiming to be 'Self Employed, therefore ahvinga ccess to NI Cards and the UK benefits system?
(b) Where are all our own 'Big Issue' sellers?
It has been suggested that Eastern European Maffia gangs are using their own 'Big Issue' sellers as proffessional beggars. Many Big Issue sellers across the country are often old Babuskas wearing head scarves, wear long dirty, manky dresses and mumble... ""Money, Pliz, Money Plis!""
So, were our own home born 'Big Issue' sellers told to scat with threats of extreme violence by gangmasters?
The UK should apply the same immigration and work rules and permits that are currently in forces in countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the United States. The UK cannot continue to be taking in more and more people. We are already an overcrowded island, and there is a fight for scarce resources. Mr Cameron and his Liberal pals are storing up future social troubles, riots and anarchy for future years."
"_AT_IGrumble - Yes, there are mostly Romanians selling The Big Issue in Ireland, no locals. Plus, if you look at the Big Issue website, it's meant to be a short-term occupation, towards getting the deposit (and paperwork) for a place to live.
There are Big Issue sellers that have been in the same corner of a street for several years and it seems to be a full-time occupation. Strange. It hides what happens to any newcomer who might need that step up too."
"_AT_IGrumble -
< Did they gain status as 'Big Issue sellers by claiming to be 'Self Employed, therefore ahvinga ccess to NI Cards and the UK benefits system?>
Well after Dec. 2013 they won't need to be Big Issue sellers to gain access to a whole range of benefits for themselves and families within a short time of arriving here.
And by the way, unlike in most other EU countries these benefits will be available without having to pay anything into the system first.
Cameron etc are now wise enough to see this is unsustainable and will make great efforts to ensure the rules for access to benefits are changed."
_AT_IGrumble - what really disappoints me is the way the guy who started up the Big Issue has no problem with this- he is happy for it to be exploited by people who aren't actually homeless, or put themselves purposefully into that position in order to take advantge of a loophole.
If you want to understand Cameron and his politics follow the money!
And besides, once before the British attempted to forge a large-scale trade alliance between Britain and India. Since that resulted in the British bleeding India dry, the idea of doing it again is going to go down really well with the Indians, isn't it!
"I say let them Chess it out.
East Europeans are good at Chess, Indians invented the game.....may the best race win.....wink wink.."
"I can't get over the condescending tone of this article. In Guardian land, ALL immigrants are the same and any differentiation between them is wrong.
If any of them do well in Britain, they lose all support from this paper who want to keep them as charity cases.
What a bitter and resentful commentary. You just can't stand the fact that Indians in Britain do integrate well into society and don't overburden public services, etc/"
NTEightySix were you reading a different article to me?
In fairness, they could lose Eastleigh because of their candidate. She made some noises about the EU, but all the other things she said are now well documented.
"skilled migrants??? - excuse me but the Indian's who will come to the UK are not skilled - they are looking to pay very high fees to get skilled and then look for a job in the UK or other countries but not India - so in that case are opening doors for potential.
I don't think this policy works. Only need to travel into North West London and meet many of these students who are registered on courses and meet many that have graduated and doing work that is the opposite of their qualifications.
Also - not all the Indians who arrive here in the UK are self funded. Many take loans at extoronist rates on the off-chance that they can better themselves. What it does is to wield a double edge sword - against the families parents who are left behind to pick up the pieces when payments are due as well as draining India of educated talent.
Add to this what must go through the minds of Pakistani's and other South Asian groups in the UK who see and uneven handed policy. Pakistani's of recent have started perform well but will this Govt. ever open its doors to the mass of Pakistani youth wanting to come to the UK?
And how does Indian youth with degrees compete with English youth with degrees - I just see a volume of disenchanted, wasted young talent piled more onto our ""wasted youth mountain"" by a Government who's very core principle has been never to fund investment in youth but in cheap labour."
Cameron's gushing in praise of Indians wouldn't have anything to do with the massive outsource to India of data-processing (medical records, benefits etc.) his government intends to do -- almost certainly for ulterior motives -- instead of employing the population of Britain, would it?
Will somebody please explain to this delusional dumb twit that he is supposed to be running a country not a corporation. That is for the benefit of the citizens not for the profit of individuals.
Skills are only part of the equation. Integrity and diligence are even more important, especially integrity.
"_AT_Exodus20 -

Nah, that's bigoted. Jobs should go to the person who is best able to do them, nothing else matters.
I'm of the opinion that immigration debates should be shoved into the population sphere. If you said ""the UK's pretty-much full - boosting the population will lower quality of life for everyone"" I'd agree."
"_AT_Groundbreaker -
Racial favourtism is racism and apartheid."
Yep, and all those things are bad. Which is why I vehemently oppose them.
"It's not simply a matter of Indian immigrants good, Romanian and Bulgarian ones bad. We have immigration controls with India, which puts us in a better position to ensure that we only get . Immigration from Romania and Bulgaria will be unrestricted, meaning that we won't be able to prevent the entry of the dregs of their societies.
All the more reason to get out of the EU."
"_AT_TheGreatCucumber - perhaps you feel entitled to

or perhaps not, I don't know. However India almost certainly needs them more than we do."
"_AT_FoundThePlot -
It's got nothing to do with entitlement. These people aren't India's property, they're free to go where they please. Most likely, an educated professional Indian who's wants to emigrate won't change their mind if they can't get into the UK, they will probably just go to some other western country."
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"No... just no. I stopped reading the article at this point. Including this line arguable discredits you enough to make whatever your write here irrelevant.
If anything, the number of poor people have decreased since our neoliberalism kicked off in 90s. If anything, our socialist policies and 97% income tax from 50s to 80s is largely to blame for us having our growth phase now rather than 40 years ago. We could have been a developed country by now like South Korea and Taiwan had our post independence leaders not been enthralled by stupid socialist ideas that don't really work in a country which has no industry, low literacy, no service sector and no natural resources."
"_AT_Chinmay -
Come on Chinmay, stop fooling yourself by believing in what your political elite keep harping. In absolute numbers, the number of poor people has increased in India much more than what it was, say, 30 years ago.
You may say it was 80% 30 years ago but now it is only 30%. Convert this into absolute values."
"_AT_Jellybaby1 -

What's your point? Globalisation doesn't lower birth rates (although I wish it did)"
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"_AT_Jellybaby1 -

In order for 30% of current population to be equal to 80% of the population 30 years ago, the population of India should have increased by 166% over past 30 years. Even in India we don't have this much population growth... so no, I stick by my statement, the number has decreased."
"It is not that the govt. is rolling the red carpet out to all Indians.
Only to professionals, students with lots of dough to spare, investors...
Has been going on for some time. These set of people can take their pick from a whole bunch of developed countries. And the UK is just one of them. Recently some Canadian minister was in India welcoming these same set of people as immigrants.
And I am sure a Pakistani, Romanian or Bulgarian professional, rich student or investor will be equally welcome.
Money talks, baby."
"What's this 'Daily Mail' people keep mentioning? It sounds like it's the right-hand end of the spectrum of blinkered preconceptions whose left-hand end is the Guardian. Should I be reading it as well so as to arrive at a balanced view of current events?
Or is there a genuinely non-aligned British national newspaper that deals in fact not opinion pretending to be fact? (Please don't suggest The Scotsman - someone already did that, I think after reading it they must have been joking.)"
_AT_MyfanwyDR - have you tried the daily sport ? very ballanced
"_AT_MyfanwyDR - reading the Guardian and the Daily Mail for political balance is like trying to keep your brain on an even keel by taking uppers and downers at the same time.
The Guardian used to believe that its role was to report the facts objectively and give a platform to a broad spectrum of voices but that was a long time ago now. The best thing to do is to stick with one main paper so you get used to its angle of bias, read other versions of the news stories to see if there's any consensus and rigorously check everything that seems to pat to be true using the Internet.
Oh, and under no circumstances consult the Daily Express."
"_AT_septicemias - thank you for the suggestion, but my interest in reading about sport is very limited! I enjoy chess, did a lot of french cricket and netball when I was younger, and I took up shooting a few years ago when I started getting migraines. But sports journalism seems to me to sum up what's wrong with most journalism, celebrity-obsessed, only interested in scandals, violence and the size of players' packets. And when you stop to analyse it most sports writing is as flowery and falsely orgasmic as a Mills & Boon ladies' eroticum - a sort of sad lads' chicklit I suppose.
But thanks for the thought!"
_AT_MickGJ - Useful advice! And don't worry - I've seen the Express front pages plenty of times. It seems obsessed with bad weather. Life is bad enough without constantly being told we're on the verge of Britain's worst weather since, oh, the last worst ever weather they'd forecast. It didn't happen then, either, but if you read too much of this stuff you can't help feeling that the law of averages means one day they'll get it right. A recipe for depression!
"I'm still waiting for someone to make the point, so I suppose I'll have to.

Not every person from India is a skilled person or professional.
Not every person from Eastern Europe isn't.
The way people talk it's as though they expect Eastern Europeans to sit around in crumbling farmhouses dreaming of one day doing some ones guttering in Plaistow, as opposed to coming often from huge cities with power stations, hospitals, tube systems, and frequently being highly educated."
"Just as 30 years ago many people apparently thought that an Indian person must dream of working in a shop or a restaurant, as opposed, for example being able to be an Engineer or a GP. Now they've been patched up by one or have got to know another they're embarrassed about that.
Give it a few years and these lazy attitudes about Eastern Europe will fade as well, if not because of logic, at least under sheer weight of evidence."
_AT_Vraaak - It is not lazy attitudes that mean people criticise Eastern European migrants, it is the fact we have no controls. The unskilled, people with convictions, the seriously ill and the chronically poor cannot get from India to the UK as they cannot get visas. Unfortunately, anyone can come from Eastern Europe to the UK. This means we get a lot more crap coming in with the better migrants. If we had a proper migration system then we could limit our migrants to precisely what this country needs.
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"_AT_poppy23 - I bet certain people are delighted now.
Not been allowed to say bad things about or Asian black people in public for how many decades? Oh look, now you've got half a continent to say things about like ""This means we get a lot more crap coming in with the better migrants""
Yeah, the most cowardly racists and xenophobes are coming out of the woodwork and disguising it as concern for this or a prognosis of that.
And that's exactly what you sound like."
"_AT_Vraaak -
What exactly are you griping about, and what do you want?"
"_AT_Vraaak - A rather lazy insult without any real evidence or point. I am pretty sure that others on this website will confirm that I am happy to go way out on a limb from mainstream opinion, if it is my actual viewpoint.
Immigration has nothing to do with race and everything to do with character, skills and resources. There will hopefully be a time again soon when we need migrant Labour, but in very few trades is that the case today.
When we do require migrant Labour again, I would say we have a system like the Australians that favours English speakers and those with specific trades, whilst blocking people with criminal records. I don't care if the migrants come from Poland or Peru, as long as they are all judged equally. At no point would I support an open border policy, even if we needed large scale inward migration. It is utterly foolish to abolish your ability to control such an important issue.
That is my viewpoint and you can choose to believe me or not."
"_AT_Vraaak -
<Not every person from India is a skilled person or professional.
Not every person from Eastern Europe isn't.>
Why waste your time making these points.
'EVERY' ?????
Who is saying that????"
_AT_poppy23 - Although still a little blinkered, this is a better proposition than outright refusal of all immigrants based on their nationality or even worse exit from EU which is pure folly.
_AT_poppy23 - Well, put that way your view sounds a lot more sensible - thankyou for taking the time to explain
_AT_Heretica - Freedom, democracy, cup cakes, and crumbly candy bars.
There is a clear difference. We can control which individuals come in from India, but we cannot control who we get from Eastern Europe. As a result we get a far greater proportion of Eastern Europeans we do not want. Introduce one set of immigration rules for everyone and we can start attracting people from all areas with the same level of enthusiasm.
Perplexing to see a sovereign country like Britain give up her rights to allow / deny people entry into the country. Isn't one criteria for an independent nation the control of its borders and granting of citizenship rights? Britain should change its name back to Britannia, after all, it has returned to being a mere province of a reborn Roman Empire. From provincialism it was born, to provincialism it has returned it would seem.
_AT_HoolyK - yes the first thing they got rid of was the Britannia emblem on the coins, old mother brown done that
Why the persistent delusion that nothing worthwhile existed before the Romans -- is it the result of brainwashing by a public-school dominated Establishment that yearns to kiss the arse of imperial Rome?
_AT_Heretica - Britons took pan European Celtic art to its highest heights. This was pre-Roman, and it is believed by many to still be our great contribution to world art. Even greater, would you believe, than that of Tracey Emin herself......
All immigrants are bad until we can build more schools, hospitals, houses, wider roads, taller trains.
_AT_josolsey - .....and we are able to offset all our carbon emissions with our own trees and plants.
"What are you trying to say ? that Indians are hard working ? the answer is yes they are .they are ambitious for their children and don't stop until they succeed .
i shell say no more on the subject,
think what you like"
"Contentious skulduggery. Nothing like stirring the pot. Can't you tell the difference between a moral principal and the financial panic of country that is willing to sell the family silver to maintain an overblown political system that is merely self-serving. When you talk about Indians or Romanians which ones do you mean? It is to the credit of Australia that if they have an ex-pat that has committed an atrocious crime they can ship them back to Blighty without public trauma. However, we are expected to hug to our bosom anyone who fetches up at our door and then to maintain them no matter who they turnout to be.
The British have the CRB, they have the impositions of their class system, they have accents and regionalism, all things that can and are used to differentiate them in the jobs market and socially, and yet we are expected to guarantee a warm welcome to those from failing cultures and deeply stigmatised societies who can have any identity that they can buy and who, once in Britain, can conveniently forget their country of origin, their names and crimes (and yet who slack journalism and blanket attribution only see as foreign and therefore in need of the protection of rampant socialists who would have their country undermined sooner than admit to a logical prejudice).
Who is this Romanian that you offer as the eternal face of being Romania? Who is that iconic Indian? Do either of them come from societies whose mass can be regarded as beyond sin or beyond cunning? What is their skill? What is their hold on us? Why should any of them, bar the minority, represent anything other then social problems for Britain; look around, we can hardly cope with the people we have got.
We are at that stage where prejudice has handed over to 'pro-judice'. In fear and trembling of seeming opposed to any convoluted sort of humanity the standard response is that questioning the actual purpose is beyond discussion. That there are those that plead on behalf of a mass who individually may have little or no provenance seems to be bred of a desire to cut off one's nose to spite one's face. It smells of prejudice against some other political entity rather than actual understanding.
While there is that folk image of Liverpudlians as scally's and not to be trusted around your belongings, the un-kowable Romanian will be allowed free access until they prove otherwise and the uncharacterised Indian ditto. We love a stereotype don't we? We know who the Huguenots were. We knew their skill and Ireland benefited from both while satisfying a humanitarian need and a religious affiliation. In their industry and skill they were a benefit to Irish society. Yet this advantage was somewhat ameliorated by their Calvinism which made them inclined to oppose the catholic society of Ireland and actually saw them fight with William of Orange in the service of their faith. Some might say that such migration proved to be divisive and upset a natural balances of evolution, rather like introducing Coypus to Norfolk and only finding out at your leisure that such animals are entirely unsuited to the local ecology.
The demand for more of any 'others' is entirely irrational on the grounds of humanitarianism, absolutely insupportable. It will appeal to the minorities whom they represent as weight in their favour, further potential for division. It is a place where sentiment alone cannot reign supreme because of the definite affect on the outcomes in such massive displacements. If the EU wanted to prove that there is only Europeans and not races then they could have not set out to destroy the difference more effectively.
There is little other purpose in what is being undertaken. Where Germany had her 'foreigners' paid for by the whole of the European community at the reunification, a totally paid for currency scam, we are asked to pay for this coming together ourselves in a society that spends £3 a day on hospital meals, where the roads are falling apart, where jobs are being lost because of budget malaise. That any of those gaining access to Britain can offer a positive change to our dilemma is purely speculation but when a State is panicking in the transparent way that this one is who cares?
Anything can be suggested and anything accepted in a nation of supine individuals who are conditioned to think that to speak their minds is dangerous, subversive, as it might upset someone; or where the British sense of fair play which nowadays only seems to be referred to in respect of the contentious immigration issue and even then, as this matter has not been mentioned in any national election, is just an attribution and not a fact."
"_AT_EuropeanOnion -- Establishment-franchise political Parties don't want such matters freely discussed ... to their leaders and ideologues, seeing themselves as part of the Overclass, everyone of lesser status on the entire planet is disposably equal.
A fatal mistake the British public have long made is deluding itself that those who rule feel any sense of responsibility towards the British population or even the country itself. They don't, nowadays it's the corporate-USA (ie. not the USA of ordinary Americans) to which they' have allegiance, though for some the NWO's branch office in Brussels is always useful as a gravy train."
Yet more stereotyping!
I believe that Cameron is being pragmatic and looking after British short term and long term benefits . He know that Eastern Europe cannot provide as huge a market as India. When he talking about welcoming Indians he is not talking about poor, huddled and oppressed masses in india. He is targeting English speaking, technically savvy, highly educated young people who will bring economic value to the British system .  He wants to hitch the wagon to galloping horse. He is serving national interests, nothing more and nothing less
So why would intelligent, well-educated Indians want to transfer to a sinking ship?
"_AT_RajeevNidumolu -

Western decline is not inevitable. Once Europe gets over the age bulge and it can manage to keep the population smaller rather than having immigration, it will be better served in a world where the climate is warming. India and China are going to have big problems as the world warms up and resources are depleted. The west should be thinking about the future, not tomorrow."
_AT_TheManFromRotherham - Yes exactly, and we should be building our military capability to ensure that when Global Warming does hit we are in the best position we can be to benefit from it.
_AT_Heretica - Unfortunately in capitalist systems which are bound by trade agreements there is going to be movement of labor and capital across the borders. Average skilled Indian is looking for employment in a global labor market based on return. The decision to go beyond the borders of india is an individual decision . At this stage of Indian economy there is glut of trained Indian professionals compared to opportunities available
There was me, thinking there was not enough jobs to go around, silly me. No problem, Dave, as many Indian migrants as you like to move to the UK. There must be so many jobs, houses, schools and hospitals I did not reckon for.
Of course, in the uncertain economic times we are in, "tolerate those who can benefit us, but not those who fail to make us prosper". If they benefit us, then that's great, if, however, they "fail to make us prosper", then - a drain - they become, a drain we cannot afford.
_AT_EliteMinds - yes this country is called the united kingdom not the united social services
"There's nothing wrong with basing immigration policy on who will benefit the country. Why would you want to base it on anything else? We're not a charity and we have no money, in fact we have a lot of negative money.
So yes, by all means welcome doctors, scientists, programmers and engineers to the UK, as they'll generate wealth for the country. Where they come from is irrelevant, as is the colour of their skin.
If immigrants are unskilled, uneducated, and don't have a top tier job waiting for them, then to be frank, I don't see why we would want them.
In short, we have to raise the bar, and raise it a lot."
_AT_moroboshi - How many of native poor westerners would like to take menial low paying jobs and make a living? They would rather take the welfare . This how a demand is created for illegal immigration by unskilled poor
_AT_RajeevNidumolu - The solution to that is to raise the minimum wage and reduce benefits, not import cheap labour from outside the UK. We have plenty of people here who lack the skills to do high paid work.
"_AT_RajeevNidumolu -

You appear to be blind to a lot of none westerners who are on welfare. Immigration and illegal immigration reduces wages and standards of living and maximises profits of businesses for a short while until their customer base is undermined. Immigration is a double edged sword and strict control is beneficial. Reduce immigration of the poor and wages and consumer demand remains higher than it would with too much immigration.
However, we should be getting away from the consumer society and the endless growth model as it is destroying our habitat."
No, don't. For decades now that line has been trotted out by those at the top ... but they never did address the matter of properly educating and training people already in Britain, instead of the easier and cheaper (to them) option of importing ready-made alternatives.
"_AT_TheManFromRotherham -
You are correct in your assessment. Corporations always look to maximize profits year to year and give profits to shareholders. Their performance is judged day to day by gyrations of stock market. Do the corporations sacrifice short term profits in preference to long term profits? They looking for the cheapest labor in a global market irrespective of color and nationality."
"_AT_Heretica ""-they never did address the matter of properly educating and training people already in Britain, instead of the easier and cheaper (to them) option of importing ready-made alternatives.""
Is it not what a capitalist system is supposed to do.? Why spend the capital if you can get a cheaper alternative?"
_AT_moroboshi - The fact is that governments are now controlled by corporations . Will the corporations agree to raise wages?
"Yes, that's what the profiteers do. And that's why they want to cram ever more people into a comparatively small area that already has an unsustainably high population.... while effectively discarding the offspring of residents.

Responsibility ... though under the present Establishment
and its monopoly-capitalist system that scarcely exists."
_AT_RajeevNidumolu - not sure whether you agree, but to me, ethically, morally and other-ally, asset-stripping countries of their medics etc is not a responsible avenue of progress.
"_AT_moroboshi -

The one particular distortion I have seen (from an outsider's perspective) is the lower minimum wage for younger people. I am sure this was well-meaning, to incentivise hiring apprentices in the trades. However, this becomes a draw for non-serious students, who get to work 20 hours a weak. And becomes and incentive for employers to hire them, since they have to pay a lesser wage.
At the very least, the requirements should include a provisio where immigrants under a certain age aren't allowed to work at all. This is not just Britain's problems - opens us the issues of human trafficking from India. The issue becomes particularly wrenching when the victim is a teenager."
"_AT_RajeevNidumolu -

I'm not aware of an article in the Constitution of the United Kingdom which declares that we operate by a ""capitalist system"" that throws the voters under a bus if there's cheaper labour abroad.
And it's not even true to say that they're merely ""importing cheaper alternatives"". Immigration is proving anything but cheap."
"_AT_moroboshi -
Oh dear, what a snobbish, narrow and misguided attitude, a top tier job what on earth is that?
My mother in law has a polish cleaner she is a wonderful, caring and hardworking young woman, who contributes a great deal to the community.
My son takes his car to a hand wash and has it done by polish workers it leaves their hands looking as if its just left the showroom.
The hospital orderly who pushed my father in laws wheelchair was Bulgarian, he was brilliant and his manner rose everyones spirits.
All these people are on he minimum wage or less they are hardworking genuinely nice people who provide much needed services at a low cost.
They are the real people who generate wealth for this country and many services we tale for granted such as hospitals would collapse if they did not have people with different ethnic backgrounds working for them on a very low wage.
This government chooses to attack people who are vunerable, and shows elitist discrimination in the majority of its actions they have forgotten how diverse humanity is and fail to value anyone or anything that differs from what they personally know.
As human beings we should be opposing their narrow and discriminatory attitudes not supporting them"
_AT_lizidrip - Agree with you, especially the last paragraph.
"<Cameron's immigration hierarchy: Indians good, eastern Europeans bad>
Who writes these headlines?
More simplistic and strawman nonsense."
"I think actually the headline here ought to be ""Controlled Immigration - Good, Uncontrolled Immigration - Bad"".
And who can argue with that being a bad thing ?"
"Cameron's immigration hierarchy: Indians good, eastern Europeans bad
I suspect his policy real is is rich business people who own companies good and unskilled people who can only hope to work here at the poor pay scales -bad.
He is looking to import more wealth creation to the UK rather than import more poverty.
Many countries outside the EU have these policies. You will not be able to immigrate to either Canada or Australia unless you have the skills they want and or course money. as well."
It is the arrogant and casual ignorance and disregarding of our institutions and processes and treaty commitments that is so appalling. Immigration targets were changed without understanding of existing visa systems, relationships and people movement and business dependencies. Almost as though the civil servants are too scared to contradict Tory plans so when it blows up in their faces, the politicians have to scuttle around putting out fires here, there and everywhere. Chaos and political incompetence.
"Increasingly, the Identity Card project looks like it would have been value for money.
And with all these people coming to London, wouldn't another runway have been a good idea, Dave?"
"No it does not! And money's not the only reason...
It's akin to arguing in 1916 that blowing your leg off in 1913 would have been a good idea -- instead of saying WW1 was a bad idea."
I am sure he will change his mind when he gets back
Reminds me of George Orwell's animal farm, " Four legs good, two legs bad" Cameron is an ******
"Indian and EU immigrants have both had a chance to prove themselves in this country.
The Indians won.
Problem?"
"_AT_naffnaffa -
Yeah, problem.....in the way you judge things.
EU citizens (Eastern Europeans) are just coming into UK but Indians were here long enough and seen many generation. The first notable influx was, as I believe, at times of Idi Amin.
You are expecting the EU citizens to prove their worthiness from day 1. That's a problem."
That's a strange and rather convoluted way to express a rather ancient human wariness as if it was some modern neo-liberal artefact.
This is about the EU referendum. In the same way that they are blaming the EU for British people putting toxic horse meat in the food chain, now he is praising Indian immigrants while criticising EU immigrants. Why? Because he can claim to be able to control the former while saying the latter is out of his control because of the nasty Europeans.
Wasn't Hollande there only just last week after the same thing? Nothing is said of the widespread corruption and the barriers with trading into India. Tariffs which there are a whole host of them. Yes we have strong ties with India but they aren't centred on trade. Indians earning their wealth here have integrated better and have a much more focused outlook to improve generation from generation. More so than almost any other group of immigrants. The Indian middle classes, highly educated, are highly mobile. They are all across the globe and settle extremely well. Of course we'd prefer them than the Eastern Europeans!
"_AT_Ianhar -

This is perhaps meant as a rhetorical question. But let me attempt an honest answer, based on what I have seen of the two countries;
1. Motorway design and road safety - Britain has some of the safest roads, India some of the most dangerous
2. Methodical approach to health-care for an entire society - British trained doctors do take back skills individually, but we need to replicate or learn from the system, one of the finest in the world (yeah, I know, your mileage may have varied)
Few Britons probably realise how good these are, probably the envy of the world. Why not help the rest of the world with this, and make money while you are at it?
Instead, we get financial advisers from London, who, while clever at what they do, contribute nothing particularly productive to society.
At another time, I'd have said education, but I think my wish-list will include a combination of existing Indian school system and the American University system."
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"Rich Indians very good.
Poor East Europans not good. Except if you can employ them cheaply to keep costs down to supply cheap product......."
The problem I see is that highly paid middle class professionals in advanced countries are now competing in market place with skilled cheap professionals from developing and poor countries.  Welcome to globalization which is claiming victims in advanced countries
"_AT_RajeevNidumolu -

Interesting you say this. I have had this challenge within India itself. If I am able to persuade someone to travel from a relatively poor city in India to work in Bangalore, they'll tend to accept a salary that a local might not have. And this, within the same country.
However, I do not think that the salary vs. expense equation for engineers is incentive enough for a reasonably experienced engineer to move to the UK from India. From what I know, hiring talent with good English skills from China would be equally challenging.
The US still has a high enough salary to attract those who do not have firm family commitments back home.
Since you know a bit about this - why are management salaries so much attractive in Britain vs. India and the US? In the latter two countries, there's partiy between the two, and based on skills, the engineer might even demand a premium."
"also, its easier for people to focus on eastern european immigration because they are white.
it makes no difference that the bulk comes from non EU countries, white people are easy scapegoats as criticising them does not incur the wrath of the politically incorrect inquisition."
"This has puzzled me as well. Could it be that the Indian community in Britain is turning Tory? And if so, why?
There have been persistent rumours about this, and particularly amongst first generation immigrants that haven't had to live through the Thatcher years. Additionally, they tend to be the Tier-1 category professionals, whose self-interest might be served by voting Tory."
_AT_NotImpersonating - India is a conservative country in general, and <massive generalisation> Indians seem more motivated, determined, and hard working than Europeans. No particular surprise then that Indians would vote for a party which seeks to reward those attributes, rather than a party which seeks to reward arrogant feckless scroungers... and if anything, surely someone who lived through the years when Margaret Thatcher was in power would be even more likely to have a positive opinion of the Conservative Party, than someone who has only been exposed to Dave's Blu Labour? Lastly, anyone from India would know only too well that electing a left wing party is likely to result in where you live being left on the scrap heap (West Bengal) whilst all surrounding areas prosper!
Yes, very arguably. And I guess by "neoliberalism", you mean "globalisation"?
"This is a purely British article, but the above assertion is utterly laughable. India has hard cash for about two weeks worth of imports, when the reforms were brought in. That's the kind of crisis it took.
Since then millions have been lifted out of poverty. The declining rate of poverty and utter destitution has been apparent to anyone who has lived in India long enough.
There is and increasing income gap - but that has been true of all economies that have liberalised."
"Age of colonialism destroyed all indigenous cottage industry by colonial powers as the artisans could never compete with large quantities of cheap products by advanced industrial technology
Age of globalization is destroying the middle class and poor class in advanced countries as they cannot compete with large quantities of cheap products by cheap labor by the same advanced industrial technology
Multi national corporations and the shareholders really love the soaring profits based on increase productivity by cheap pliable labor
What has India and eastern europe got to do with the globalization. They will be chewed and spit out when the sugar is ingested"
_AT_RajeevNidumolu - spot on.
"We need immigration that has technical entrepreneurial capabilities. Its technology we need to monopolize, which will create the new sectors in the economy
A immigration strategy that is driven to make Britain the powerhouse of Technology for the world."
"_AT_begmohsin -
If it's being imported, you'd not be able to have a monopoly.
Because it must also exist wherever you're importing it from.
And if you think technological advance can only be done via importing people .... how come so many inventions of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries were home-grown?"
_AT_Heretica - Right on the nail! We did incredibly well with our 'home grown' talent for centuries. Why are we constantly told that we have to import it now? Not that I expect any sensible answers.
"This article is all very well, but the true farce of Cameron's comments in India is him asking India to 'open up' to British business.....at the same time as we are giving £200 million a year in aid to a nation that has a space program, and that's at the same time as Britain allegedly can't afford £500 million back home for council subsidies for the plebs !
No..it isn't the Romanians who are getting the rough end of the stick. It's the British people !"
"_AT_Ubermensch1 - Do you really think that the £200million a year is going to the people who are running the space programme? You are very misinformed.
The money goes to the majority of the Indian population who have little access to clean water and often struggle to feed their children. Whether or not India has a space programme is pretty irrelevant to them."
_AT_Ubermensch1 - You haven't been keeping up. Aid to India has been stopped. Find something else to blame for your country's woes.
"_AT_NotImpersonating -
""Aid to India has been stopped.""
Actually it is 'due' to be stopped.....in 2015."
"_AT_chazza010 -
""Do you really think that the £200million a year is going to the people who are running the space programme? You are very misinformed.""
I don't think any such thing....what I think is that, as the old saying goes...'charity begins at home'. The responsibility of the British government is, amazingly, to the British people. After all...I don't get to vote in Indian elections."
"here here.
i have to keep telling myself its 2013, and not 1913.
how can this be right legal or moral. i accept we all have to contribute, but no way will i accept the sweeping generalisations that this horrid man cameron spouts. he is using soft racism to turn people against people.
he should be reported to the race relations board, and the un, and the european court of human rights.
why does the queen not act, and dissolve this corrupt racist and sickening government."
Reuters has already reported that the main motivation for this trip to India was to save a large helicopter order which is in danger because of a bribery scandal. This appears to be a cynical attempt from David Cameron to endear himself to the Indian public. If they have any sense they'll take it with a great deal of salt.
"why is immigration still a topic?, the barn door's been open and the horse disappeared over the horizon in 1968
just let anyone in, from anywhere, in any amount of numbers, does it matter any more ?, when Henley On Thames starts resembling Harlesden as it has to do one day we can then all have the last laugh on our lords and masters."
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"Just as slimey and twp-faced as always. David Cameron has never had any consistency, let alone a backbone, on any policy, and has never pledged a single policy without going back and changing his mind at some point later on.
And you lot all seem surprised."
"You've missed the fundamental point that Indian's can only come via the point based system (where you need to have degree level skills and be earning £25k+, and where employers need to prove they cannot find a suitable employee from the resident labour market) whereas any A2 migrant can come, with no restrictions at all.
Without acknowledging this basic point this piece is pointless."
_AT_cloudwood - meanwhile " our own kids have to pay for their education ,and then have to stack shelves for nowt??????????
Cameron's immigration hierarchy: professionals with skills and money good, unskilled penniless looking for handouts bad. Which, to be fair, is what most people want.
_AT_NotImpersonating - Just like the Indian immigrants are preferring Republican over Democrats in USA. I suppose ultimately political ideas are reflection of class. As the immigrants move up the social and economic ladder they become conservative and sometimes right wing. In USA two of the most conservative right wing evangelical Christian governors are two Indo- Americans Gov Haley from North Carolina and Gov Bobby Jindal from Louisiana
more UKIP little englanders worried
"_AT_robbosouth - Yes! UKIP is the answer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJhVM930YXY"
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"_AT_robbosouth -
<more UKIP little englanders worried>
Poor show; why not go for a full house with 'xenophobic', 'racist' and 'fascist' as well.
Pity that people like you who seem incapable of any nuanced debate cannot use the accusation 'Islamophobic' on this particular occasion."
_AT_scubaM10 - yes, fascist is the right word for ukip
"I'd welcome any rich Indian students who can fund their education here and then go home to improve their own country.

When we leave the EU we can introduce a points based immigration (Australian style) system and end all this nonsense.
Obviously many Guardianistas want their lattes served by cheap, eastern european immigrants as it makes them feel 'cosmpolitan'.
Back in the real world the rest of us are concerned that our kids won't have any future in their own country. Jobs such as plumbers, labourers and electricians were important opportunities but now these are closed off to our youth."
dont you mean doing jobs that 'British working class' dont want to do? Or are too thick for?
_AT_unhombredesw19 - They may not want to do these jobs because Labour corrupted the welfare state into a feather bed and created a massive undercalls. They also dumbed down our kids. THIRTEEN years of misrule. Thanks Blair, Broon and Balls.
_AT_bladesman2 - Lol "Obviously many Guardianistas want their lattes served by cheap, eastern european immigrants as it makes them feel 'cosmpolitan'." you are so funny mate, what about all these Britons working or living abroad?
They aren't still in Britain, so what's that got to do with those who are?
"'They' didnt dumb down our kids - its the lack of ambition from many parents these days where their own lives have been sufficiently cossetted that they dont have any desire that their children should have better lives than they did.
This is a process that has been aided by papers like The Sun that idolise people like Jade, Gazza etc. who behavie like morons."
_AT_unhombredesw19 - But would if forced.
_AT_bladesman2 - thatcher corrupted the wefare state by deliberately throwing millions on the scrapheap?
_AT_Heretica - God-almighty, you've become so blinkered you don't even recognize your fellow nationals! So the land is more important than shared nationality? The first thing that comes to my mind is animals and their territory - not bad for a country that claims to have invented democracy and civilization - a wrong claim by the way.
_AT_bunkermad -- Sorry, cannot figure what point you're making.
_AT_bladesman2 - No one on JSA or its predecessors has ever been able to turn down a genuine job offer to them personally (as distinct from generic, often fake or zero-hour "vacancies").
"Hang on. Cameron's pitch was to Indian students wishing to pay large amounts for a UK education. It's a pitch for exports, not for immigration, to a country with great potential to buy more UK goods and services.
We do want more exports don't we ? If so, that will mean selective marketing to rich communities overseas, not the poor ones. Is that discriminating ? No, it's just common sense since only the rich can afford our products.
It's mercantile, but it's not inconsistent and it's certainly not racist."
"Thank you, Ms. Lentin, for this article. I'm glad to see that there are still people in the UK who are trying to put the immigration issues in perspective and not just peddle the xenophobic filth oozing from most of the British press, as UK politicians wallow in the pre-emptive witch-hunt of the oh-so-frightful Eastern-Europeans knocking on Britain's door. The comments below the line, however, are truly something to marvel at--such brazen xenophobia, prejudice, and ignorance in a civilized country such as Britain is, indeed, shocking. Then again, if one looks back in history, the seed of this mass racism toward Eastern Europeans in particular is quite conspiquous in the British propaganda surrounding the Crimean war, or the Anglo-Afgan wars, when the Ottoman thugs enslaving much of Eastern Europe are viewed as commendable warriors and exotic gentlemen, while the Russians and Eastern-Europeans are portrayed as subhumans.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bram-Stoker-Russophobia-Evidence-British/dp/0786424079/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361217696&sr=8-1
It is not incidental that the view of the UK in Eastern Europe is predominantly one of a country where Eastern Europeans are viewed with contempt, if not with outright racism. Which explains why most educated Bulgarians, like myself, choose to live and work in the US.
And if next year, when all work restrictions drop, you only get the gypsies, then, well, good luck! You have your prejudices to blame."
"_AT_eastsideitinerary -
I think that's rubbish !
I, and everybody I know, values the East Europeans who have come to work in the UK in recent years. In fact, we're rather sad to see so many return home as their own economies have done better than ours in recent years. Still, we hope the Polish bars etc. will remain in business because they are very popular.
There are two legitimate reasons why some Brits are concerned:-
(a) Due to EU treaties we can't control the levels of immigration, and due to our government's incompetence, we don't even monitor it !
The US is much more in charge, is much more selective, so its population can be more relaxed about it.
(b) Many employees will prefer an East European employee to a British one. And not simply on grounds of cost, but also performance. That obviously upsets some. Being the most popular in class does gather some enemies !
No, no, no. We are not anti East European. We fought for your entry into the EU. We like you. A lot."
_AT_kimdriver - The dog said: I want justice ... but not for puppies.
"_AT_eastsideitinerary - spot on mate
our press is much worse than the majority of our people, and the filth you are seeing spouted so much on here, is more to do with our failure to tackle our right wing ukip party.
and yeah i am ashamed to call myself british. i have met so many of these peoples from all corners of the globe, and the majority i wish were my countryman, why?, because i am sick to death of the my small minded racist homophobic bigoted countrymen, who get so much coverage in my countries press.
great britain is no more, all we have left is spivery corruption and a decaying democracy. i would leave if i had it in me to abandon what is left of the descent working classes."
"_AT_Stephen Porter - ""great britain is no more, all we have left is spivery corruption and a decaying democracy. i would leave if i had it in me to abandon what is left of the descent working classes.""
Dear Stephen,
Don't let us hold you back.
Love,
The Decent Working Classes"
"_AT_Stephen Porter -
But it is a minority, agreed ?"
"_AT_Simeone -
I'm lost, Simeone, help me !"
_AT_Stephen Porter - The 'descent?' working classes of this country were abandoned by the labour party when they opened the floodgates to cheap labour,I know because I am working class and it directly affected me.You feel ashamed to be British because of small-minded racist ,homophobic,bigoted countrymen?could that be your 'fellow countrymen' I refer to above? Well I joined the 'rightwing' UKIP because of several reasons,one being that I could never bring myself to vote labour because of the innocent blood they have on their hands and the blatant lie of 'British jobs for British workers'.Secondly I won't vote for the cons because of their total disregard of the poor sections of our society,and thirdly the libdems will prostitute themselves and forego their principles for a taste of power.Which of the 3 above do you vote for,and then look in the mirror before you go on a rant about people who feel the main brunt of unlimited immigration.So off you go and fkn leave,because I can assure you that 'descent' working classes certainly won't miss the likes of you.
"_AT_eastsideitinerary - Honestly, how easy was it for such a highly skilled individual like yourself to move to the US and immediately start claimig state benefits?
All the British people want is to apply the same criteria that you had to fulfil when you applied for the US visa. What's wrong with that?
You and other educated Bulgarians should be creating awareness in your home country, educating the masses to get rid of corruption, and build a better state, instead of blaming the UK of xenophobia.
You should be ashamed of yourself for being such a hypocrite!"
_AT_Godeye - You can always NOT vote. UKIP is fascist, plain and simple.
"_AT_TazDesmond - state benefits? Immediately? In the US? You must be thinking of the wrong country. No one comes here for benefits or health care. People come to the US because it is still a functioning meritocracy and those who are skilled or talented can succeed. Raising the entry bar won't weed out those who have something to offer from the leeches. The leeches will always find a way in. But a xenophobic society will definitely chase the skilled and the talented away.
""You and other educated Bulgarians should be creating awareness in your home country, educating the masses to get rid of corruption...""
What happened to Occupy London? Are you on the street exposing the corruption of the tinsel-wrapped British plutocrats?
Then there was something about stones and glass houses..."
"_AT_bunkermad -

Out of interest, which UKIP policies in particular are ""fascist""?"
"_AT_Godeye - UKIP splits the Tory vote - good.
But it was't ""Labour"" - - ""New Labour"" - that ""opened the floodgates"", but Britain's once-coveted membership in the EU: ""Free movement of capital, goods, and PEOPLE"" is, and always was, the founding principle of the EU and its cold-war predecessors."
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_AT_eastsideitinerary - You kind of shot yourself in the foot by ending your comment with that anti-Roma statement!
"_AT_eastsideitinerary - ''Are you on the street exposing the corruption of the tinsel-wrapped British plutocrats?''
That's not the point here. Yes, there is corruption in the UK. But still the United Kingdom is a far better state politically, and a far better country economically and socially than Bulgaria; and the British people have worked hard to achieve this. They are entitled to enjoy their well-earned prosperity, just as you are entitled to enjoy your prosperity that you might have achieved by educating yourself, by moving to the US; and presumably working hard for your success.
It's not the British people who are forced to leave their country due to the inbuilt and massively out of control corruption and social inequalities in the country, but Bulgarians. You see the point now. I hope you do."
"This policy is only because someone told Cameron that the 'BRICS' were going to be 'big players' in the future.
Sadly - whoever told him that knows fuck all - as Brazil is suffering with currency strength, India is going to have serious inflationary problems, Russia are prone to kicking you out at a moments notice (see BP) and is rather corrupt - and China are fucked because their 'biggest customers' are broke - that's the EU and the USA.
Cameron is a prize twat - he's like the kid who used to piss himself at the back withhis hand up saying 'sir,sir, me sir' - before answering the question totally incorrectly because the kid next to him gave him some duff info.
If the Indians have got any sense they will say
""Yes - we will trade with your - after you GIVE US OUR FUCKING GOLD BACK YOU STOLE""
What goes around comes around folks."
"_AT_HonestJohnny - Aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh - the man makes me sooooooo mad with his rank STUPIDITY.
Does he think he's clever?
Give me 5 minutes in a room with him and I will wrestle his feeble mind into the jelly it is.
He knows NOTHING - which scares me to death because a lot of people voted for someone who is clearly THICK.
What does that say about them?"
"_AT_HonestJohnny - maybe we can repay them by sending some of our kids to india to work in their factories.
do you think cameron gets it, seriously do you think he has any idea just how corrupt this cesspit of a world is, and do you think he is doing all this deliberately, or is he so dumb that he really thinks hes doing good."
"_AT_HonestJohnny -
That's a little silly. The genie that is globalisation will not go back into the bottle. Because it was enabled by the IT revolution, and encouraged by scarcity of commodities (upon which some of them earn their keep - Brazil and Russia in particular).
The economic cycle will ebb and flow, the `BRICS will fly and crash, especially those reliant on commodities. But they, and their aspiring workforces, have entered the world's economy and are not going away.
Given the size of their populations, you cannot ignore the potential market."
"_AT_kimdriver - 'the econmic cycle'?
What economic cycle is that then? - it's not been present since they abandoned fixed exchange rates removed the gold standard.
Maybe you're from the 19th century and this is some form of time travel.
The thing you don't seem to realise is that the world has been 're-inflating' the cycle for nearly 70 years - and that when the cycle finally returns - the economic catastrophe will result in social upheaval and war.
...then you can tell me about the 'cycle' and how it will look after world war 3.
""Given the size of their populations, you cannot ignore the potential market.""
I think that just sums you up - you actually think that by the provision of constant supply that demand will simply 'form'.
Oh god help us all."
"_AT_Stephen Porter - No - he gets NOTHING - the man is a fricking idiot.
The problem is nobody with any intelligence who would expose his rank idiocy can get close to him.
I'd love to ask him why he thinks 'this time it willbe different' - but it would be embarrassing when I pissed myself laughing at his response."
"_AT_HonestJohnny -
Currently there is an excess of supply, because of the entry of low cost producers who are not yet rich enough to be consumers.
Eventually, things rebalance. The BRICS will rebalance from export driven economies to balanced economies. But first, they use their advantage (low cost labour or commodities) to move out of poverty.
Which hurts those in developed economies, who find it hard to compete.
I almost infer from your ramblings that you like the idea of a gold standard. Please tell me you are not. It's not a reasonable position."
"_AT_kimdriver - there is an excess of supply because the capitalist faces diminishing profit and ultimately can only maintain profit by increasing size and scale (when have you ever heard of a corporation not looking to 'expand'?).In addition the diminishing wages of the worker lead to a shortage of demand and consequently a glut of supply.
The entry of 'low cost producers' is irrelevant - that's merely crap chat for 'low paid workers in foreign countries' - who are not rich enough to purchase the goods and services,
Just because it's 'global' - doesn't mean anything has changed. You're actually telling me that the worker canot afford the goods and services they are producing - which is exactly what Marx pointed to - I'm assuming you didn't mean to?
The difference this time - my learned friend - is that whereas Marx viewed the nation and the national problem - there was always a 'new market' to bail us all out - now barring a visit from Martians - there are no new markets to exploit. The only expanding resource is labour - as humans are reproducing rather quickly - which will mean capitalists will be able to find plenty of cheap labour - but as that labour is also 'the consumer' - they will have a problem.
In fact it should have collapsed decades ago - but the issuance of credit and the 'bringing forward of future demand' meant the party could go on longer - however now there is a real possibility of total economic armageddon.
Still - why do you worry - I'm just rambling - you go home and tell yourself that so you can sleep soundly in your bed.
As for the gold standard - I merely indicated leaving it was yet another way of maintaining the status quo - but with unforseen consequences. I am not one of these 'got an idea from the telly' idiots who thinks returning to it would be feasible or a good idea.
The most fascinitng part for me is how long the public can keep kidding itself that 'everything will be alright' - I seriously worry about what the shock of reality will do to them."
"_AT_HonestJohnny -

Wow oh brainy one. Forgive me for thinking you speak nonsense. Cameron would knock you out in round one."
"_AT_HonestJohnny -
Thanks for your response, which was far more illuminating than your first, and with which I agree in many respects.
We are indeed in a world of ""abundance"" (by which I mean that supply exceeds demand from those who can afford it, as opposed to demand from those who desire or need it).
So now corporations are trying to create scarcity and are certainly, by not investing, seeking not to aggravate the oversupply.
Its a death spiral.
They are potentially screwed. If you can face the thought, try FT's blog:-
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/
And check up Izabella Kaminska's posts on the subject. You might be one of the more contentious posters, but don't count on it. I think you'd be welcome. Your views would hardly be unusual.
But blog rules are strict. Be contentious, but civil. They zap !
As for affording the goods that workers produce, well I can see the theory.
But in practice.
First they don't want to afford them.
They first wish to accumulate wealth. Maybe the need to do this is cultural, or driven by the economic system under which we live, or the plain desire for independence (from the state, whatever, a distrust of whatever system prevails). This certainly contributes to the imbalance that we see. First produce, only later consume.
Second, the robots are coming. How to divide up the spoils ?
I think that it will work out, I don't subscribe to all of Izabella's views, but I do not sleep easily. It is quite a scary world in which we live.
Is the existing economic order in a crisis of debt, or a crisis of abundance ?"
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"i'm intrigued by this concept that free movement of people should go hand in hand with the free movement of capital and goods.
so, people, goods and capital are the same?

no fridge has ever claimed benefits on arrival.
that would seem to be the difference."
"_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - So you think it's fair that workers cannot go 'where the work goes'?
How does that fit in with the 'on yer bike' and 'relocate for work' philosophy of the Tories?
That seems rather hypocritical - don't you think?
Maybe you need to thinkabout who really owns that capital to begin with - this is where you are making an elementary but rather blindingly obvious mistake."
"_AT_HonestJohnny -
so the unskilled/semi-skilled are meant to not utter a squeak about the increased competition driving down wages and the effects it has on their lives?
that doesn't quite square with the left supporting the working class does it?
open borders...making it more of a dog eat dog nation than the tories would ever advocate."
_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - likewise no fridge has ever built a fridge factory, or cleaned public buildings
"what the fuck are you talking about?
Do you think that metal theft is only carried out by 'immigrants'"
"_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - ""so the unskilled/semi-skilled are meant to not utter a squeak about the increased competition driving down wages and the effects it has on their lives""
Where did you get that silly idea from? The wages are driven down by the capitalist trying to maintain his diminishing profit margin.
For christ's sake man - if the immigrants don't come - the corporations will take the work to them - it's called outsourcing!
Like most people - you focus on the man with the hood hanging around your car - not the man in the suit who just picked your pocket."
"_AT_unhombredesw19 -

where did i say that? no nationality has the monopoly on theft or any other crime. can't see why you didn't just shout 'racist' rather than imply it.
just wish i'd had someone smart like you to tell me i was a racist before i spent all those years working with refugees....
_AT_DrChris-
i have no problem with an immigrant funding the building of a factory, but there are plenty of people here already who could do the cleaning/building.
again, increased competition, driving down the wages at the unskilled end and providing more competition for what jobs there are."
"_AT_HonestJohnny -

even were i to accept that, as opposed to seeing that the nasty capitalist pig provides jobs, it still means increased competition for finite jobs in the unskilled and semi-skilled sector.

last time i heard that was at an swp meet...but i've recovered from that now thanks.
other than your sloganeering, i can't see how that left wing position can claim in any way to be supporting or assisting the working class on this issue...
as i said before, it makes it even more dog eat dog at the bottom...are you sure that when you went to read kapital that you didn't pick up ayn rand instead?"
_AT_HonestJohnny - the last time I was in London, I did not hear an English accent all day.
_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - if you dont want to be misunderstood then dont attempt to use metaphors and analogies in this area
_AT_HonestJohnny - Because you cannot have free movement of labour AND a national welfare state.
"_AT_CanYouFlyBobby -
<Because you cannot have free movement of labour AND a national welfare state.>
This is a fundamental truth which will become even more obvious when Romania and Bulgaria have the restrictions removed."
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"_AT_DrJohnZoidberg -


Simple answer:
Free movement of labour within a currency block that has free movement of goods, services and capital is an essential self correcting mechanism that allows people to go to where the jobs are and allows businesses to employ as many workers as possible to produce their goods."
"_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - The free movement of capital, goods and people has been the founding principle of the EU and its predecessors. Everybody with any interest in politics always knew that.
But here we weren't talking about the EU, but about an influx of Indian multimillionaires, present and potential."
"god help us.
we have to many tories in this country already, and now they want these other tories to come here, if they interbreed thy are bound to self destruct.
ere can we start another negative campaign, to help deter these other despicable lazy immigrants. or how about we all move to india, change our nationalities, then apply for entry to the uk, and get one of those good jobs that need filling."
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I agree that Indians are not more assimilable than eastern europeans. I would in fact say that  is more likely to be accepted - culture, cricket and english are not really that important. To be blunt the locals wouldn't want any new people - it doesn't matter where they come from and whether they are blue, pink, white or black. In fact, most locals would not even distinguish between productive and unproductive immigrants - the malthusian theories bandied about by environmentalists and their foolish friends along with the welfare state has convinced most people that human beings should be considered a burden instead of a resource and that this island is FULL and there is no room etc. The fact of the matter is that most people are woefully ignorant of how it is exactly that people become rich or prosperous. It's only the "free market" so hated by the guardian that enables people to go from poverty to prosperity. The free market and classical liberal ideas brought amazing prosperity to the world, sadly the british government after the 2nd world war went about setting up this insane welfare state with the best of intentions but worst of results.... The reason people are coming to the United Kingdom is not because of the benefits, it's because they have freedom here, more freedom to run their business and live their lives. If there were no border controls, most people would make a beeline for America despite the lack of healthcare, shootouts etc. and all the problems the guardian keeps moaning about. Freedom works, capitalism works, liberal ideas work.... the reforms in India from 1991 have pulled so many people out of poverty and have given people hope. I have seen the change myself. India is much much better than it was in the 1960s or 70s or 80s..... It's not just the IT/biotech jobs that have been created, it's also all the people supporting them that you don't see - the drivers and peons and kitchen staff, the builders building the offices, the maidservants...... the reforms have given India hope... also please do not confuse issues, the present crisis was caused by crony capitalism and corporatism and not by genuine free market economics......
"_AT_bluemax007 -

beautiful:)"
_AT_tacaiocht8 - oops, should have said white person regardless of origin/background..... well spotted!
Sorry Dave, you can't choose your immigrants. We're members of the EU, so 400 million people have the right to come here.
_AT_IanCrompton - As far as I understand from tonight's news he is not talking about immigration, but about offering student visas to Indian citizens so that they can study at British universities - provided they have the right level of English.
_AT_Sue Cormack - He has also said that they can have visas for work here after their studies.
_AT_acewindsor -Great. Indians are hard-working, honourable people in the main. Like it or not we have historical links and most Indians speak good English and like our culture. Ok, this small island of ours is getting a tad overcrowded, but if someone from another country has something really useful to contribute let them stay. The problem lies with those who don't want to contribute, but to take.
"_AT_IanCrompton -
<Sorry Dave, you can't choose your immigrants. We're members of the EU, so 400 million people have the right to come here.>
Yes but, if he has any sense, he will press for changes in the rules that give access to most benefits without the need to make any prior contributions."
"_AT_Sue Cormack - I have no problem with hard working honorable people except when they are competing for jobs and housing that could have gone to indigenous people.
I do have a problem with people bringing their caste values and medieval village ways to our society.
I particular have a problem with the way the generality of sub-continental men treat women."
_AT_Sue Cormack - I would say VERY overcrowded. I do not buy into this continual expansion and growth. For me, reduce the population by 10 million over the next 20 years or so. I would vote for that no problem.
"_AT_acewindsor -
Didnt britain bring racist values and globalized looting culture to India ?
They have a knack of tu"
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We should have control of our borders for many reasons but immigration of any kind should be  so that we can make our own rules on this matter and many others. Is this a racist comment? Hardly as many people who are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants have the same view. A great deal of social stress is being caused by the deliberate immigration policies pursued in particular by Emily Thornton of the Labour Party. We have a huge problem with housing as the numbers were detailed in an article recently in this newspaper and the only response was to blame it on David Cameron's policies. How stupid, to make an assumption as though the housing shortage was constructed by the reforms of the last few years when any person with a modicum of intelligence would realise the build up to the levels we are experiencing now would take a much longer time. Like everything which has made our country rotten to the core is legacy of Labour rule and like the Wilson/Brown years have created a country which is fast becoming a "basket case".
_AT_ToryHaHa - You are not free to unilaterally break international treaties.
"_AT_ToryHaHa -

Thanks for putting me (and loads of others) out of a job chum. Remind me to do you a favour some time.
Or did you think it was all a one way street and there weren't just as many people who want to take advantage of the EU to get out of the UK rather than in?"
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"Cameron loves these jollies when was the last time he spent more than a week in this country.
You know the one he's meant to be running."
If they had any sense they wouldn't come. Which can only mean that the immigrants we'll get will be idiots.
Britain is not a country anymore but a key business culture now; where economics drive its policies and govern the minds of its lawmakers. Like a savvy businessman, british politicians are now slicing the world into 'beneficial' & 'non-beneficial' group of people and the filtration process would make sure that only people with potential arrive into UK borders instead of a burden of low-skilled people. Sooner or later, but this is the only way for UK to uplift its economy. Indians who have arrived here recently for education or work permits are a completely different race of people that were brought to britain during the labour shortage. Many of these neo-immigrants have gone to build successful businesses here and worked hard to create hundreds of jobs for the locals. I think Cameron is encouraging such race of people to come and work in UK regardless of their country, race or religion. I think british public at large need to open up to the world and should support him.
"Oh, sure. Cripples can cheer as they die in the gutter, while unwaged forced-labour jangle their chains with glee in the workhouse ...
Hurrah! The world has all come in, praise be to Neocon!"
"Cameron is the window dressing for most of the deals done on these trips have been prepared for months ahead of the over hyped visit.
According to the Channel 4 News Cameron's visit so far has hardly caused a ripple in the India media but no doubt that our press will hail this trip as an outstanding success when he returns to give us all our daily dose of Cameronitis.."
.
have you been to India?
_AT_unhombredesw19 - Many many times.
_AT_acewindsor - What is missing in the UK is a similar system the the Gulf countries. You GO HOME when the job is over, you cannot bring your family with you unless your salary is enough to house and feed them, and NO extended family. Funny, millions accept that quite happily! Should be the same in the UK. Contract workers, NOT immigration.
Why is Camoron in India guaranteeing Indian students 'no limit' to the number of their Uni Students Britain will accept and offering them all fast track visas - when he and his glove puppet, Gove, have successfully excluded a vast number of British Students from attending uni by the devaluation of Examination grades and the tripling of fees?He is also offering visas to Indian businesses - He should be building up business in Britain not selling us off to India - no doubt he thinks they will be attracted by the desperate unemployed he and his shower have managed to create! Governing in the best interests of 'the British people' ? I think not!
_AT_AUniversalCitizen - Good point, and precisely it. He is SELLING UK Universities to new clients, obviously the high fees have caused a drop in national intake, so in order to balance the books they need new wealthy 'clients' from abroad. Simples.
"For goodness sake if we had a better education system we would nt need any immigrants to come and work here we might fill any valuable jobs from the British born. But to say Cameron is racist s a bit rich. Ask anyone in this countr y that if immigrants are to settle here do we want someone who contributes his talents and therefore enhances society for those already here. Or do we want another job seeker with similar talents as our unemployed. That will drain the finite resources in our public sector . Not difficult to work out is it.
You may not have noticed we have not only a crisis of unemployment but lack of housing, lack of NHS funding, lack of welfare funding. We need new businesses if the Indians can set up here and create jobs bring them in"
Almost every article is just a peg for the rabid left to vent their spleen - see the same dreary names wallowing in their self-pity
I saw bits of an interview on BBC World today. Had to laugh heartily at the things Cameron said. Such a bloody hypocrite.
How many more immigrants does he want?
haha - do you write for the message boards section in Private Eye?
_AT_unhombredesw19 - What's the Private Eye white boy?
"I have to say lets the whole Romania-Bulgaria thing is getting a bit tedious and unfair on people from and in those countries.
But you've missed the difference.
In one case there still is visa system, it's just speeded up for those that immigration services thinks are fine.
In another there is a completely no border and completely free movement of people.
They are the victims of a ""xeno-racism""
As I says it has got a bit tedious and a lot of the comments online are crossing the line, however thinking about the effect (positive or negative) on jobs, housing and services in relation to opening up an open border with 35 million people is not racist. There's been people from both these countries around for 50 or so years though the visa system, note.
Just as tedious to have the old insult in this article. A lot of it isn't the government, it's the media reporting looking for ""headlines"". Look to your own union, NUJ in that case, Alana. Yes and Telegraph has to sort out it's extreme-right commenters."
"That whole debate of immigration or no immigration would not happen if the UK accepted that it needs to overhaul its entire educational system to meet the needs of a modern society in the 21st century. It's simply outrageous that students in the UK don't have to do maths, history or foreign languages till A-Level. And you wonder why you can't compete internationally anymore when foreign workers not only have better language skills, they have more diverse skills and in-depth knowledge they gained from better degrees than any mediocre bachelor degree in the UK could offer.
Do something about your rotten educational system now and in 5 years' time you might already benefit from smarter, more flexible graduates who will eventually rise to save your crumbling economy."
"Adds to the debate, eh? X is a charlatan and sycophant.
Isn't this exactly the sort of thing we want to get away from in online debate.?"
_AT_BetterandBetter - The Guardian is nothing but The Daily Mail of the Left: both love to paddle nonsense in the name of journalism.
_AT_TazDesmond - peddle*
"Yup.

'Arguably' I'm the best looking human who ever lived. Good luck with that.

Well it isn't arbitrary is it. Nor is it race, it is culture.
Basically here is a fine case of Leftist thought fighting reality. You world view requires all cultures to be equally as effective or 'valid' or whatever relativist excuse you want. Reality clearly shows they are not. Rather than deal with that reality you'd rather sink the ship.
Would be funny if not so consistently dangerous."
_AT_CanYouFlyBobby - Yea, we only owe our numerical system to the Indians via the Arabs, and the structure of almost all present-day European languages to the ancient Indian language of Sanskrit...
_AT_jochebed1 - Er... Yup. Which indicates that genetics has nothing to do with it. What is your point?
"Does anyone actually understand what the rules on immigration are?
I have great problems in understanding how people coming from the worlds stress points seeking asylum are treated in a shocking way - being deported in the middle of the night or taken to detention centres at night before deportation, yet we have wealthy Russians who may have got their money from dubious sources are buying expensive properties etc and seem to be resident on a permanent basis. Are they from the EU or the Commonwealth? No
So how exactly does it work? The Daily Mail etc are permanently bleating on about it but certainly are not educating their readers about what is an acceptable asylum claim. Is it as simple as the rich from wherever, get in and the others have great difficulty?"
"_AT_Biddlemon -
The first point, of course, is to understand the difference between economic migration and asylum.
I can see that you understand the difference, but you base your arguments on comparing the treatment of the two categories.
They are totally separate. Therefore the relative treatment is irrelevant.
Whenever we compare our obligations to an asylum seeker to those of a wealthy Russian, we play into the wrong hands. Even when we say those obligations differ. They are different conversations.
The arguments must be independent, and not relative."
""" So, an English-educated Indian professional may be more acceptable than a white, jobless Bulgarian or Romanian....""
So right , dear, as long as we continue to make judgments and apply standards to people, we will always be guilty of the cardinal sin of racism. As a great nation, one proclaimed: send us your thieves, your pimps and gangsters... I wonder of they had the Transylvanians in mind?"
While most of us would probably prefer to have an Indian scientist than an unemployed Romanian horse trader living next door, when were we asked whether we'd like either?
"(my emphasis).
In other words:
An educated professional may be more acceptable than a jobless person.
I'd say yes."
"_AT_georgesdelatour - Indeed, I would say it is a statement of the bleeding obvious.
It is fascinating that some here would dissagree with Cameron's statements. It shows how out of touch and marginalised the Left are when it comes to immigration."
_AT_Simonb101 - Immigration is not a function of being left-wing, but of economics.
"Well this traitor should not be ""invting"" anyone to come here.
Does he live on another planet? Even existing migrants to this country say ""no more"" lol.
Seriously, DC knows, as do we all, that the Romanian and Bulgarian influx will consist of unskilled, poorly educated economic migrants and a hefty number of common ciminals.
He can do fek all about it given he has to do his EU masters bidding.
We common Brits will bear/suffer for this fact.
On the other hand, welcoming in the rich and elite of India will put coffers in the pockets of the money makers and spinners.
From the universities to ""internships"", from property buyers to land investors, all have nothing to gain but profit.
Meanwhile, our young and unemployed will have to compete against the new masses willing to work for next to nothing whilst they benefit from free EVERYTHING!
DC is NOT ""selling"" our goods and services to India, on the contrary he IS inviting the rich of India to exploit our cheap labour market and secure higher profit margins for all concerned
No wonder they have little concern about the next wave of scroungers stealing our taxes, they will simply keep raising them.
No matter, so long as we are entrenched into vilifying our own poor, we will fail to notice the hundreds of thousands imported by these b'stards.
I actually like Indians, they are lovely people, hard-working, diligent, intelligent, polite and tolerant.
Remind you of anyone?
So folks, how much have you in common with your own ""RACE"" , you know, the ""WHITE"" folks, those JUST like you?
I have more in common with those from India than with those from eastern Europe.
This seems to bother polticians more than it does decent human beings.
Let humanity dismiss this pathetic and political attempt to divide the masses.
How it favours their agenda.......
If there is a worldwide cry for a fair and equal, planet, which I believe there is, why are WE allowing the minority to prevent it?
Were someone to hold a knife to the throat of your child, what would you do?
Let me guess.........That b'stard could never act quick enough, every fibre of your instinct would be to kill the feker or die in the attempt.
That folks is the role of the politician, no more and no less.
Were you to ""haggle"" or negotiate a favourable position, ones child would be a black pudding........
An analogy not lost on any Brit,.......PC being what it is.....
Apologies, but we must maintain a sense of humour and perspective not conducive to DC and his sellout to India."
"_AT_yeahright55 - The young in the UK are unemployed because they are not qualified enough for the current job vacancies. Why else does the sciences sector, industry sector or even health and education sector have to get its workers from outside the UK?
The UK's educational system is rotten to the core. It lives on past glory and reputation that not even Oxford and Cambridge can live up to in the great scheme of things anymore. The world has been changing and the UK stopped paying attention to what is happening outside its realm for a very long time.
The UK is creating mediocre school graduates with appalling bad general knowledge of the world outside. No wonder if they don't have to do maths till A-Level let alone learn languages and do history. How can you expect school graduates to become good engineers with only rudimentary maths skills?
All the while further education is getting more and more expensive while the quality doesn't justify the rising costs. There is no real alternative in the UK to university education because you do not have a standardised apprenticeship system like the dual apprenticeship system in Germany that has been a success for well over 100 years. You do not produce enough skilled workers to take on the jobs that are available. That is the simple truth of it all.
And there you sit, saying you have nothing in common with people from Eastern Europe. I would agree with you. Because people from Eastern Europe know what hard work really means and they have the ambition to raise themselves from their maybe poorer situations. The school and university education is good and your view of that part of the world is sadly narrow-minded and prejudiced. It echoes of the British assumption of old that the rest of the world is filled with uncivilised savages that need to be told how to live life the ""British"" way.
If you had needed to continue studying history in school you'd know that the British Empire is long gone and all imperial thoughts of grandeur you may possess are simple delusions."
_AT_Mel84 - In the Middle East, the local population will not work in the private sector because the salaries are so low (for them). So they import millions from across the world to do it for them. This is what is happening in the UK where people will work at jobs that do not pay enough for satellite TV, smart phone and nights out on the town. What to do with them? At some point reality must be brought home even though that is going to be very painful indeed.
"Thank goodness!
At last Cameron is speaking for the mass electorate.
What he is saying is simply common sense - just look around at the carnage left by Labour's immigration policies that even Miliband now admits were a shambles and out of control."
_AT_Simonb101 - Immigration policies are regulated by EU law, not Labour or Con/Dem. Britain is a member of the EU.
so cam dont want eastern europeans ,but wants indians,in the meantime gideon and i d s want our own kids stacking shelves for sod all;, "yet again ,the ecconomics of the madhouse??????
This is simply untrue-under the Colaition Britain continues to take in thjousands of refugees each year. As it should do. What most people in the UK object is migration that doesn't benefit the country, the British are pragmatic enough, fair minded enough and welcoming enough to accept migrants who do make a contribution to the UK. Which is why there are so many of us fortunate enough to be here.
Since the opening of economy, we are better off. There is no argument about it. You must be dumb to not realize the benefits of opening up of the economy had on India. A whole bunch of people were lifted out of poverty. Now the Indian Middle class is 300 Million strong almost as big as USA and 5 times the size of England. So Please.
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"_AT_FatGhostswillfly - perhaps we should refuse to do business with these nations until they've achieved the required standards.
of course the lights in the uk will have been out for some time by then."
"_AT_FatGhostswillfly - I am from India. I live in India. So I know India a tad bit better. A lot of students from my generation are able to afford Higher education in the US and UK. This was not the case some 20-25 years ago. So please.
On the issue of corruption, India has been corrupt for a very long period of time. Yes, We have to work hard to remove it. In the 1980s there was no money, no facilities. A landline connection was a freaking luxury and a status symbol. Things are changing. With increasing education levels and awareness, Corruption will reduce.
By 2030-2040, There will be substantial reduction in the level of corruption. For this to happen, the corrupt Gandhi clan and the sycophants have to be booted out. I have an alternative. Unfortunately, The Guardian loves to hate my alternative.
If you guys do not want to do business with us, Great. Convince your government. All the best. Not India's loss."
"_AT_FatGhostswillfly -
Britain introduced the concept of first Global Looting.
They practiced it very efficiently and took most of India's wealth on
rails & ships.
Compared that to current conditions is peanuts."
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Just stop immigration now! Enough already......
_AT_FatGhostswillfly - Immigration and emigration have happened since the Stone Age, everywhere.
"Well it's quite simple - Indian migrants will be either students, investors or highly skilled - Eastern Europeans will more likely be unskilled or low skilled, or jobless.
This is not difficult to understand. We have many millions of people needing low skilled work, and not enough low skilled work. Does this spell it out adequately?"
"_AT_DT48 -
<Eastern Europeans will more likely be unskilled or low skilled, or jobless.
This is not difficult to understand.>
Also they will be eligible for all sorts of welfare benefits for themselves and children WITHOUT having to pay anything into the system first.
Oh and child benefit would be available even if the children stayed in the original country."
i think you might have confused racism with common sense on this issue.
"To be honest, Indian immigrants should be praised for making more effort to learn English etc and positive discrimination to those attitudes I actually support. Im not so sure Indian or any culture really does exhibit those features more though, I assume it's more of a class thing.
I think the article and a lot of the subsequent posts are just too eager to have a go at Cameron (understandably) & has turned into a bit of leftie ranting instead of making a valid point.
The problem with Cameron is the negative discrimination towards the working class immigrants doing jobs most UK people seem to think they are too good for themselves and take advantage of how absurdly more valuable our currency is than their native home.
Using this unusually pro-active attempt by Cameron to add value to the UK's economic standing to attack at these issues seems a bit haphazardly indirect, at comes across as narrow minded party politics tribalism really.
And I normally love a pop at the chubby faced etonian obsessed with stopping any hard working NHS worker from 'getting on in life'"
Connfirmed: we live in a world upside down – only that can explain how someone like Cameron could be a leader of an important country. Whoever thinks in terms of stereotypes in this fashion, should know that based on this, no fat chance again to become a significant player in the world in the future. Besides, he subtly assures us with his "Indian preference" baloney that the OLD stereotypes keep living on in the back of his mind: after all, in his mind, all Britain needs is perhaps just more "economic fodder".Kudos to the writer for a good article.
"The Romanian and Bulgarian stuff is bringing out some awful responses from people. The issues differ a bit though dont they? The Romanian Bulgarian one is a case of we are in the EU therefore dont have much choice.
What the PM needs to do with India is probably exploit cultural ties we have as India is set to be massively powerful.
Culturally compatibility is nonsense, its business"
"Alana Lentin..
""An English-educated Indian professional"" is not a disqualification or handicap
But
""a white, jobless Bulgarian or Romanian"" is not a great educational achievement
At the end of the day, employers want someone who can do the job, may it be black, white, or blue.."
"_AT_Achayan -
How short the memory is!
It was not long ago that Indians, educated or not, were not welcome in the UK. Remember the demonstrations against immigration policies of the 1970s and 1980s. The immigrants from the subcontinent responding to all the hatred of the British by saying, ""We are here [i.e. in Britain] because you were there [in our countries]""."
_AT_jayant - and don't forget the humiliatjng virginity tests on IndiAn women by British authorities at airports/ports.
The welcome mat is laid out for the Indians because he wants a 'preferred access' to the Indian market. From the snippets of video clips I have seen, it is obvious, he will flatter his Indian audience if it gets some business deals.
"A multimillionaire sucking up to other multimillionaires, while British NHS and Universal Credit data are mined/leaked/hacked/sold by Indian (but US-controlled) call centres. Exactly what the ConDems wanted: Organised profitable chaos at ordinary people's expense with NO democratic accountability.
The only reason that, by contrast, Eastern Europeans/unemployed people/sick people are now seen as ready-made scapegoats is that they are poor, but en masse still subject to even more pauperisation by the cartel of state-plus-profiteering-corporations."
Difference in treatment to Bulgaria and Romania is discrimination, under the EU law. The Pick who we like e policy is discrimination because it will not conform with EU rules. Romania for example, doesn't get to pick which British company should be allowed into the country or what level of taxation a British company should be subject to. We may want to tax some British companies more than others, we would also like to bar some British companies from repatriating their profits. But we can not do that, cause we choose to follow the EU rules. We can not tell a British company whom should they hire and, as such, we usually end up with all the higher management being British( and Romanians are left aside). We would also like to be able to pick which British products we may want to tax or not, depending on weather these products are a threat to our own industry( the infant industry argument)- but again we don't because we are following the rules. You should too!
Is this more to do with the one can get out of them - more of self-interest. If Eastern European countries can provide a 'potential' market for goods or business (thus more jobs locally, more money in people's pockets and in the government's coffers) then I am sure that there will be an equal gush of opinion and policies towards them. There is no permanency to these likes or dislikes and they will shift as time flows and situations change - all the while focussing on what is good for oneself (hopefully).
_AT_agsa123 - Exactly - good ole Perfidious Albion! Indians are inherently polite so he shouldn't think for one moment that they don't see through his bull.
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"There would appear to be a similar situation in Spain, where there is a hier - or lower - archy of the welcome and unwelcome. In the boom times South Americans were deemed more culturally exceptable for reasons of shared language, shared religious roots and cultural links dating back to the colonial era. Consistently at the lower end of cultural acceptance are our neighbours from N. Africa, known disparagingly as ""Moros""...good enough to do the donkey work; not considered as ""like us"". It hardly helps when former Prime Minister Aznar, whose Iraq War fervour is still rejected by around 91% of Spaniards, publicly referred to Crusades and invoked memories of Spain's glorious Christian past.
As far as Eastern Europeans are concerned, they - depending on what one reads or who one talks to - seem to be categorised by country and whatever ongoing crime scare is headline news...so the usual mix of industrious Ukranians, Poles and sometimes Roumanians (if they're not being categorised in the undesirable, light-fingered group). In general the Balkan peoples are viewed with a degree of suspicion, and as for the Roma...well, sadly they are frequently considered as undesirable as N. Africans.
It is clear that when one witnesses the frequent stop and searches, it is far more likely to be non-Europeans who are questioned and/or detained. Another clear trend is that with the economic downturn, the field workers are more frequently South Asians. So it would appear that ""our"" Muslims as with ""our"" Indians and Pakistanis are good enough to pick fruit and occasionally sell it, thus propping up the local black economy, saving all needs for social security and guaranteeing some wealth for the few.
As for Cameron's Indian charm offensive, well the political elite seem to have been pursuing the same path with China for years now. It may be naïve on my part, but I suspect that the massive support the Chinese government has provided in propping up the crumbling edifice that is Spain has something to do with the fact that I - nor anyone I know - have never seen A Chinese being a victim of stop and search. It may also be pure coincidence that the leader of the largest ever money laundering operation, Gao Ping, is free to come and go (admittedly within Spain) on a technical error on behalf of the investigating judge.
In short, the situation reminds me of those opinions held by my parents' generation of ""Good Germans and Bad Germans""...at bottom the ""good"" migrants are those who provide slave labour and/or capital...and then there are ""the others"" who are not like ""us"".
Finally, the deeply disagreeable government has announced proposals to make it illegal and punishable by law to aid any immigrant without the correct papers...so lots more poor, cold, scared and lonely folks to look forward to. A plague on both your houses Cameron and Rajoy!!"
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"White people followed their own hierarchy for last 400-500 years.
Until 20 years back only White people were allowed to immigrate to Australia.
Until 1965 only Europeans were allowed to immigrate to USA (except for
minor number of asians until 1920's).
Non white people are getting just a tiny bit of freedom to go to many parts of the world.
So please do not tell that they are top of the hierarchy.."
_AT_resurgenindia - here we go again.trying to make us feel guilty and bad
"_AT_tacaiocht8 -
>trying to make us feel guilty and bad
I am not trying !!!
Those are the facts.
Maybe you feel guilty, because you have conscience and moral compass.."
"I'm not sure I understand what the problem is here. Who wouldn't ally themselves with the hard working and the prosperous? And they are more likely to be Indians, and not Romanians and Bulgarians, then so be it. If India is so successful, then why shouldn't we try to cash-in on it? Success tends to attract - and be attractive to - success.
I'm not sure why the Romanians and the Bulgarians are so maligned, but reports suggest that they are poorer, and less economically successful than, say, other European nations. Racial stereotypes are maybe unacceptable, but the Euro crisis has surely highlighted differences, and that bolting on all and sundry to the Euro project, will pull it out of shape, and lead to greater tension. Some countries have to take more than they appear to give."
"And those nasty Eastern European countries cannot say to let's say Western European retail-chains to pack your things and go home for example, because they making profit and then repatriate it in the expense of the local businesses....
So if Britain do not like the EU rules then Britain should leave."
"Hollande was also in India this week - doing arms deals.
All of the western allied regimes are eager to replace China as their primary cheap labour platform. Sweatshop, if you will.
Why?
Because China has become too powerful, and we are on a collision course to outright military conflict with China. If we thought our adventures in Iraq cost a lot of lives and ruined our economy- wait till you see what happens with this one."
"_AT_giveblood - War in Iraq was stupid and illegal, but it didn't ruined your economy.
Deregulation of banking system and banksters greed did."
"_AT_Dienhh - Surely all of those things contributed?
What has the illegal occupation of Iraq cost the US and UK economies to date?"
Never has there been such hypocritical double speak. Foreign students numbers have fallen 25% because of changes to the Student visa system brought in by his government.
"_AT_Ken900 - yes, closing down bogus 'english and business' schools has resulted in a drop in numbers.
as cameron pointed out, the uni's are open for business."
"China is 133 per capita in the world. Doesn't spend nearly as much as the West on redundant weaponry and illegal wars. China has never invaded anywhere, just protects it's Borders. Has been invaded many times and shut it's borders. Invaded by Britain, the Opium Wars. Britain flooded China with Opium. Brutally invade by Japan 1937-45.
Also has a 'one Child' policy."
_AT_Ken900 - What was China's little foray into Tibet then? And then into India and Vietnam. Bullying Taiwan, the Philippines and now it is squaring up to Japan unless it gets what it wants. You seem to have at least one eye closed when you look at China.
"_AT_johnbok - Dig a little deeper and you'll find that China's current squabbles with its neighbours are being stoked (even outright encouraged) by the US regime.
Obviously I'm excluding Tibet."
_AT_giveblood - I doubt that very much. The US had no influence with China when it invaded northern India or Vietnam.
"_AT_johnbok - Never said they did. I clearly mentioned the current squabbles, so your doubt is misplaced.
Also, I'm certainly not suggesting that the US is siding with China in this. They are pushing their allies in Asia to be more aggressive towards China. this will soon lead to open conflict."
The City of London is the tax avoidance capital of the world. Ruining the economies of other countries and the UK economy. People in the UK have to pay higher prices and higher taxes to make up the deficit. Unfair competition from tax avoiding multinationals with lower overheads puts British companies out of business. It is against EU fair competition rules. Multinationals create monopolies, overcharge and tax avoid.
"The EU policy on Eastern Europe has ensured peace in the region and that is welcome. Who knows what problems we would be facing otherwise.
However, the open door policy on immigration from those countries is a mistake because in so doing we are importing poverty and creating a huge pool of unemployed people in the UK forcing wages down. Mass mmigration also drains our health service and benefit system.
Benefits and healthcare in the UK were supposed to be dependant on National Insurance contributions and should still be. If that has changed then it needs to be changed back."
wow.i never thought i'd be so right about it.for several weeks I've been saying that over half of all immigration comes from non-eu nations and I wondered what EU has to do with that and if they plan on doing something with that, too. instead of pointing out all those poor buggers form EE. it seems that I have just found the answer as what is it in stock for us.
The EU is a federation so it has free migration. Get over it or get out.
"_AT_Berlinenglishman - well that's the idea.... we're working on it.
btw. i voted for a common market, not a federation."
"Well, uh, yes. A well educated professional is likely to draw less on the state, may even increase the productivity of the country if they have skills that a Brit does not, and although they will add to housing and labour pressures they will do so in sectors which are not so critically oversubscribed already. A jobless unskilled person will compete directly with the native working class for housing, jobs and benefit money, and will add nothing to the country.
That's entirely sensible policy!"
"Actually The Tory party is not closet racist it is now openly racist ....( as well has having more than its fair share of fruitcakes and nutters) .
Alok Sharma is the Tory party Vice Chair with special responsibility for BME communities ... white ethnic minorities fall withing the BME category.
Ina New Statesman article Sharma has called for companies to slot in BMEs to top jobs but makes it perfectly clear he only means Black & Asian ones , not marginalised E Europeans. Such racial discrimination is illegal under the 2010 Race Equality Act.
So Cameron's tory Party has gone full circle to saying loud and clear "" Anyone not white ""."
Surely that's an objective fact?
Should read - "Immigrants good - as long as we can make money out of you and exploit you"
_AT_DavdyP - Yes. Plus "And as soon as you stop being useful (e.g. paying for education) you can get out again".
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"I've always considered myself 'Left Wing' but I'm struggling to understand some of the logic these days - I had a conversation with a friend recently and I'd be interested to know what others on here think. My point was that no matter how left wing we think we are surely there has to be some kind of criteria as to who's allowed to come and live here and who isn't, but she disagreed and after a lengthy discussion it ended with me baffled.....
""So you're saying that anyone in the world who wants to come and live in Britain should be able to, even if they're found to be using a forged passport at the border, and if they don't want to work when they're here they shouldn't have to, and they should be allowed to claim as much as they want in benefits and live in whatever house they want in whatever area they want, and all this should be paid for by the taxpayer ?""
""Yes, I do think that"" she said.
""But that's crazy, just think about what you're saying, how would that ever work?""
""Well it doesn't work in your head because you're clearly a child of Thatcher - and to think you call yourself 'Left Wing"" she said mockingly.
I'm genuinely confused as to why thinking the above system could not work makes me some kind of racist bigot - surely it's not about race, or even a left or right thing, just a common sense thing ?? Are there any other commenters on here who feel the same way as my friend, and if so can you explain how such a system would work ?"
"_AT_bleedinobvious -
as a former lefty and ex immigration/asylum worker (i was a legal representative), i began to question such things when i went (for work purposes) to an open borders meeting.
anyone who questioned how such a policy would work with regard to taxation, state education, the welfare state and the impact of more competition for jobs amongst the low skilled was pointed at and called a racist in front of the whole room (as most were left or liberals, this had the effect of closing down a lot of questions).
there seems to be a section of the left which doesn't give a flying fuck for the working class.
in my experience they are always at the posher end of the scale.
if the left no longer stands for the working class, then what on earth is its raison d'etre these days?"
"_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - what on earth were you doing?..asking questions based in reality.
you should be ashamed of yourself.
four legs good, two legs bad."
_AT_bleedinobvious - do you see the contradictions created by the welfare state now? The whole idea of the left wing seems to be that the world owes them a living - they deserve free food, housing, money etc simply because they exist and any children they create deserve the same. This "entitlement" culture essentially means people refuse to take responsibility for their actions and depend on the state to look after them and give them everything. That cannot but have a crippling effect on human beings. And how does one justify the NHS spending millions of pounds on a patient who smokes drinks and eats whatever he feels like and has surgery again and again and again.... you create all these moral dilemnas - should we allow plastic surgery on the NHS? should we have a limit on the amount that can be spent on one person? the only solution is abolish the welfare state entirely. It is possible to have cheap healthcare and cheap education in the private sector - all that is needed is deregulation and some innovative thinking - this will lead to competition. which will drive prices down.
Oh God, please give me a break from this whole story!! Indians who can pay their education and invest in Uk --> Of course, but 60% of my friends and classmates are studing or have studied with grant in UK... Even my brother is in Bristol now and has a great grant. Why everyone from your politicians is putting on the table only the gypsy way of behaviour as this are all the Bulgarians and Romanians. Why UK government is treating us as a third World people because our countries are the poorest in EU. Don't we deserve to be treated as equal for all the talented and smart peiople you have got. Oh yes...because they are already in the UK...that's why you're not talking about them. I used to think UK is a great country for travelling but after all the arguing and bad sayings about my nationality I don't want even to have this country in my tourist party destinations... I am really offended as a young, career oriented and intelligent person. What your government actually did is to offend all the classy people, so don't doubt why in future when you realize that the only people who will have interest for UK are gypsies and pickpocketers. Now Mr Cameron....you're totally free to follow the money...
_AT_Milena Savcheva - . Don't we deserve to be treated as equal for all the talented and smart peiople WE got. ...my bad :)
"_AT_Milena Savcheva -
P.S Oh ...I almost forgot to mention that here is Sofia we are opening a new Mall every 1-2 months...but indeed we are still the poorest country in EU..."
"_AT_Milena Savcheva - caMoron and his fascist crew are converting Britain into something between a hell-hole and a shit-pit for anybody not nearing millionaire status.
I'd rather live in Bulgaria, and ti be perfectly honest, if any Bulgarians wish to come and live here, you are both mad and welcome to it.
It's well and truly f*cked to death by the torys."
_AT_Sparro - it was completely f*cked by labour long before the torys arrived to find the wallet 'empty'.
"_AT_flabbyshambles - Poppycock and you know it, even if you would not admit it. It was the triple-drip osBumme who is responsible for the soon-to-be triple-dip in our economy. Before that, is was the banksters who created a situation that nobody could escape from.
Whatever mistakes Gordon Brown made, and he made quite a few, he was not, fundamentally, a fascist. caMoron is. osBumme is. Dung-Can Smith definitely is. He did not set out to wreck the country, and actually tried to like the majority of his electorate,. The present Filth are diametrically opposed to that notion. They are the f*ckers, well and true. They have vested interest in f*cking the country dry. That crime against humanity could never be pinned on Gordon Brown; or even Tony Blair."
"_AT_Sparro - well sparro.... you're clearly nuts.
but i do like the way you change peoples names to make them sound ridiculous.
carry on."
I haven't read so much crap for a very long time.
What is the connection between India and Britain...is it the occult?
"In principle, I'd have no immigration controls at all (so long as other countries reciprocated). I believe in a free market for labour.
Indian students and business people, are much less likely to be stealing scrap metal than eastern europeans migrants are (I know that Brits do it, too). So, in this context, the perception of what Cameron's said may actually be true."
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"Hitler 'justified' the Sikh people as good original Aryans. On that basis, whether or not he was right or wrong, he tried to ally with them to establish a foothold in India, due to his desperate need for rubber, for tyres apart from anything else.
I'm not making comparisons between Adolph Hitler and caMoron, of course. Apart, that is, from them both being fascists."
_AT_Sparro - don't think you know what 'fascist' means.
What are you talking about? Most of the Bulgarian public holds higher education degrees and mainly from American, German and English universities, so the point about "English-educated Indian professional may be more acceptable than a white, jobless Bulgarian or Romanian" is not valid. There are different reasons why Bulgarian and Romanian immigrants are targeted and it is not their cultural compatibility or professional skills. Open your eyes - elections are coming.
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This problem will not get the resources it deserves. Why? Because the victims are Men. The same attitude will be taken to these guys as is taken to Male Cancers, Men on the streets, unemployed Males and the like. Their crime - they are Men. This will not change until we start to take on the rising Misandry we have witnessed in our Media over the last few decades.
Its astonishing that in this day and age slavery is still occuring.
"Response to Yjustequality4women, 06 November 2011 4:11am
Actually the report mentions a female victim too."
Highlights the difference between the socialist nirvarna the well paid sinecured ideologues at EuroGravy Station imagined and the nasty dirty reality on the streets the workers understand. Try visiting Lithuania or Poland rural areas to understand economic realities of everyday life SarkoMerkos to get a feel of things.
"I total agree with GULTD. This article is written as if Kaunas is not much different from, say, Birmingham. As if everything in the EU is socially equal and wonderful. Possibly because we once had a nice mini-break to Vilnius or Riga or Krakow or wherever.
But if you'd put some basic data in, it'd be obvious why it happens. Average yearly wage say: 4k Eur in Bulgaria, 30k in the UK, 42k in Germany and so on. These are massive, massive differentials.
The people you spoke to have a much better idea, like Clarke as a result of this disparity, the likes of the UK (particularly London) and Germany are seen across much of the world as practically utopia. A land of milk and honey. That's ingrained and not just in the EU but also in a lot of the other eastern states and much further afield. You simply can't convince people that it may well not be true for them."
"Well now this is just horrible. Those poor men (and woman).
Reading this, however, I cannot help but think that if it were affecting women and if it remotely involved sex, this story would be front and centre at the top of the Guardian homepage for at least twenty-four hours and we would have Harriet Harman and various other hangers-on foaming at the mouth in the Commons and all over the BBC for weeks.
Instead this story is stuck at the bottom of the website and will most likely quietly slip off in six hours. Why? Because our society just doesn't care about suffering that happens to mostly men as much as it does about suffering that happens to mostly women.
Painful but true."
This article shows that there have been dire consequences resulting from Labour's mass immigration and "enrichment" policies.
"How awful. Forgive me if I don't weep - I'm all cried out about my own two British sons who can't get jobs because of all the former Eastern Bloc workers that flocked here when Labour vetoed the EU on A8 immigration.
And while we're putting blame where it needs to be - after more than 18 months in power the Tories haven't introduced the Work Permits that other EU countries use to control Eastern Bloc migrants who rock up and work dirt cheap.
If they did that all the problems disappear - including these ""poor souls"" - who lets remind ourselves - are only here because of their own personal greed and don't give a monkeys if they price indgenous Brits out of a job."
"I would be very interested to know who these people are, who want an eastern European 'slave' in their house? Are they also eastern Europeans - is this a closed community issue (which is sort of how the article makes it sound) Or is it more widespread?
_AT_Yjustequality4women and _AT_ranelagh75
Pathetic. Here is an article highlighting the plight of men who are being horribly exploited by criminal gangs, and all you can do in response is moan about how female victims have it so much better. But it's you two who are choosing to talk about women and sex in the comments on an article about men. Clearly you aren't that interested in men and their problems yourselves. Why might that be, I wonder?"
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 9:18am
I am unsure how your post has 15 recommends, but things must have got a lot more right wing in the Guardian recently. These 'Eastern Bloc' migrants, as you charmingly put it, are fully entitled to come to the UK and undercut anyone they choose. Just the same as your sons are entitled to go to Ukraine or wherever if they choose to do so, and work for any rate they want. The UK does not owe your sons anything. They are no better or worse than your fellow Europeans and should be treated no differently. It beggars belief that you speak about greed in this way. Surely it is your sons' own greed that is pricing them out of getting business."
"What I would want to know, is how much attention this modern day slavery is getting by the government - of both men and women. I don't think that either get enough attention personally.
For example, this is the second time that Luton has come up with using slave labour - are these companies being prosecuted? They should be closed down. Someone is profiting from this slave labour, both male and female, and they should be exposed and prosecuted."
"There are no restrictions from other countries on A8 anymore. Labour did not ""vote"" to allow these workers in-that is just the EU law.
There were never work permits from other countries. They could live and be self employed freely anywhere.
Sorry to disappoint you.
Why don't you and your family take advantage of this free movement and find jobs abroad???"
If I cannot get a job or a home why is half of Poland at my local DSS availing of services?
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 9:18am
very sorry for your sons, surely there's a market out there for highly skilled professionals, unless they are being outperformed by middle-aged eastern europeans with no grasp of English? Lithuania is a sad case, both economically and politically, 20 years since the independence now, and it's as good as institutionalised cleptocracy gets."
"Response to tundyy, 06 November 2011 10:19am
Perhaps I'm a good European and have worked abroad in the EU ... which is why I know what I'm talking about and you clearly don't.
1) There ARE work permits applied to EU migrants in other EU countries - France used their lack of Work Permits to boot out the Roma who were ruining Parisians and other French peoples lives - all perfectly legal and within EU and ECHR rules
2) Again using France as an example, regardless of where you are from within the EU, working as a self-employed tradesman requires you to register under the Auto-Entrepenuer scheme (Google it, O wise one) which entails you proving your qualifications in the trade you wish to follow and then paying your Social Taxes and a guestimate of your Income Taxes 3 months in advance before you can trade.
Trading unregistered (""on the black"") leads to arrest, fining and expulsion for the tradesman and fines for the employer.
3) Labour VETOED the A8 agreement - this means it chose not to be bound by the restrictions on former Eastern Bloc economic migrants placed voluntarily by the rest of the major EU economies - leading directly to at best estimates over 750,000 economic migrants arriving in the UK working largely on the black and paying no taxes into the UK while taking at least as many UK jobs either directly, or by forcing down wages of British workers leaving them better off on benefits - which WE all pay and not the A8 migrant who isn't registered to work and so pays no taxes or NI."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 10:38am
If you need to register somewhere that is not a permit.
There are no work permits across the EU."
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"I don't think this sort of story has nothing to do with work permits or rules. Many, many people do not engage with it at all. Indeed self-employment rules often actively enable exploitation. I can only speak for Germany but, for instance, here, the exploited worker is told to set up as self-employed for instance, so as the traffikers are not landed with employment benefits and the risk is all with the worker.
I don't think the A8 aspect is that relevant either. The same issues exist in Germany of Bulgarians and Romanians etc being exploited.
As to the issue of gender, that's also a difficult one. As a woman in an immigrant community, I can only say the issues are different. Poor immigrant women have a value in the market immigrant men tend not to. They have that ""get-out"" option of hooking up with a man but the price for that can be very high and a lot are vulnerable. You only have to look at some male British CIF posters and their ""phwoar, hot east European tottty"" lines. In contrast, poor immigrant men are not sought after by local women. The opposite."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 9:18am
The article's about the breadth of exploitation and forced labour - not migration policy. Although I'm sure this greedy, heartless Lithuanian fellow was wringing his hands with glee at the thought of enriching himself thanks to Labour's veto on A8 immigration, as he stepped onto that minibus.
Best of luck to your two sons though."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 10:38am

Do you have any evidence that they are largely working in the black market?
Obviously unless they are shipping all their groceries from Bulgaria, they will be paying some tax.
As said before if an eastern european can rock up and find a job over a UK Citizen its pretty woeful for that citizen, and only reflects badly on them."
"Response to oivejoivej, 06 November 2011 11:03am
I don't know if it's possible to keep recommending your own comment, but unfortunately it may not be necessary. There are a lot of people who take out their resentments about their position in society by demonising poorly-paid immigrants, rather than having the intellectual skills and political awareness to put the blame where it lies. One of the greatest achievements of capitalist elites has been to set everyone else at each other's throats, by encouraging the poor and (effectively) disenfranchised to hate each other rather than to hate the wealthy. One of the most depressing things about organisations like the EDL and to some extent the BNP (more likely to include rich people) is that they focus their impotent fury on people even weaker than themselves, rather than banding together to attack the people who are really profiting and who are steadily dismantling the welfare state, the unions and all other protection for working people. If such groups - like the EDL - would get over their self-defeating racism and start focusing on calling bankers, corporations, tax-avoiders and politicians to account, they might improve things. As it is, they're playing right into the hands of the wealthy and powerful. That they don't seem to realise this is a crushing indictment of education in this country.
There's a reason why religious education is part of the school curriculum, and Marx and other socialist thinkers aren't. Keep the masses compliant and stupid. Don't give them the tools to critique elites; give them religion to make them defential to authority figures."
"""On the black"" is not technically the same as ""black market"".
Let me ask you something:
If it costs (costs) a British tradesman approximately £1000 a month *just to trade* - that is to pay for a vehicle, it's road tax, it's insurance, telephone, stationary, PPI for his customers, self-assesed tax and NI - and thats before he has paid his mortgage and fed himself an his family - and that base cost is that equates to £47 a day - HOW does an East European ""tradesman"" work for less than that a day if he is not shafting us and our system somewhere?"
"Why is it that any thread has to be hijacked by halfwits complaining about anti-male discrimination and blaming immigrants for their own plight and ours. Imagine, Chakamouse, that you were partially disabled, lived in a country with almost no welfare system, had no job and somebody offered you employment elsewhere... Would you say, ""No, hang on, I have to show solidarity with the unskilled workers of wherever it is I go, so I'll just stay sitting on this park bench so Chaka mouse's children can clean pub lavatories instead of me""? I suspect not.
This article is about the exploitation and abuse of your FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS."
"Response to coffeetable, 06 November 2011 11:18am

What has wanting our own kids to have the chance of training for a career and a future got to do with racist organisations like the BNP? You're very mistaken if you think that people who are against our own kids - black white asian or whatever - being f*cked over by greedy employers and greedy self-serving migrants are racists."
Charity begins at home.
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 11:33am
You are a very good example of what I'm talking about in my post. Why are you focusing all this resentment on Eastern Europeans, who are at least as much to be pitied as anyone else who is struggling to get by? This article is hardly about people who are competing with your sons, anyway. It's about people who have been tricked into coming into this country with the promise of honest work, and have earned nothing, taken nothing away from you, and suffered brutality and degradation instead. Which, shame on you, you seem to think they deserve, just for being Eastern Europeans who were naive enough to hope to be able to come to a country that for all its problems is far, far better off than their own and constantly promotes itself as a champion of human rights and human decency.
Why don't you look around you and see who is really calling the shots in our society? Because believe me, they're delighted to see you taking out your frustrations on other workers, rather than on elites. They've brain-washed you into thinking that a bogeyman called 'socialism' is to blame when in fact we are all victims of a free market that cares only about rewarding the rich and making sure that the rest of us are as powerless to oppose that as possible."
"Greed. Some people get lucky with that, other, well ... Turn not unto others for your livelihood; rather depend on yourself. Mine the depths of your God-given inner resources - they will stand you in better stead than the empty promises of a quick fix by a stranger.
Life today is tough - these guys should realise that. Eas solutions are more than ever likely to be bogus ones :("
"Response to coffeetable, 06 November 2011 11:46am


What is happenning here is that you are partly correct - people take out their frustrations on other ""minions"" rather than those truly responsible - one of the reasons I have made play of New labours complicity in this state of affairs: Labour are as neo-liberal as the Tories - they truly are all in it together, bought and paid for by the same corporatists.
However, where you go wrong is to immediatly attribute fair comments about Eastern Europeans being here of their own free will and for their own benefit in order to ASSIST in screwing our countries workers over as somehow racist or evidence of far-right leanings.
It is comments like yours regarding the EDL and BNP which drive the wedge into the British people - it is knee-jerk reactions like your own which will drive *some* of the British people into the arms of the far-right - and thus enable the divide and rule that will see us all screwed over."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 12:00pm
Labour are not as neo-liberal as the Tories, but New Labour was certainly heading in that direction and was, of course, in thrall to corporate interests as all national governments are these days.
As for the rest of your post: nonsense. You haven't read my comments very carefully. I am not talking about racism as such, but racism as distraction from focus on the real issues. Eastern European immigrants, especially those fighting over the bottom rungs of the socio-economic ladder, are just as much victims of wider social structures as anyone else in that position. They're no more or less 'greedy' and 'self-serving' than anyone else. Capitalism is driven by greed and competition at every level. That is why workers are encouraged by such organs of the right as the Daily Mail to hate each other, to resent each other, and to compete bitterly with each other. They should resist this by banding together and fight the real enemy. My critique of racism in this particular context is that it is self-defeating.
As for 'knee-jerk', honestly! There's nothing knee-jerk about anything I've said. And if you think anything I've written here could possibly drive anyone into the arms of the far right, you must be quite mad."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 11:51am
the debate here should be about a system that allows people like that Lithuanian man to be exploited, his benefits assigned unchecked etc, not about how vile and 'greedy' he is in having no hope and arriving here legally to have his passport sized with no means or clue about where to seek help and so on. all your contribution to this imagined debate so far is about how everyone is out there to undermine the efforts your honest sons, well must try harder, or get a break."
"OlSlov
6 November 2011 10:12AM
Response to ChakaMouse, 6 November 2011 9:18AM
I am unsure how your post has 15 recommends, but things must have got a lot more right wing in the Guardian recently. These 'Eastern Bloc' migrants, as you charmingly put it, are fully entitled to come to the UK and undercut anyone they choose. Just the same as your sons are entitled to go to Ukraine or wherever if they choose to do so, and work for any rate they want. The UK does not owe your sons anything. They are no better or worse than your fellow Europeans and should be treated no differently. It beggars belief that you speak about greed in this way. Surely it is your sons' own greed that is pricing them out of getting business.

An 'Eastern Bloc' migrant worker in the UK on the minimum wage can earn 3-4 times the amount of their home country's national average weekly wage,so please tell me Olslov to which Eastern Bloc country Chakamouse's two sons,and in fact any UK worker,can go to work in and earn 3-4 times the UK average weekly wage?...I've got my passport at the ready and eagerly await your reply."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 9:18am
More Brits have taken advantage of the EU and found jobs
elsewhere in the EU than there are EU immigrants in the UK.
Your sons should go the Germany and look for work -
over a million vacancies.
But they'd have to learn German and sweat to get a decent job
in Germany wouldn't they?
I've done it - they can too.
Try this for some help -
courtesy of the brilliant EU."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 11:51am
I don't understand your comments...
You should be happy: the enslaved guy is going back to Lithuania...
Should you suggest to one of your sons that therefore there is a position available...?"
"There already is a two-tiered system in place for immigrants; immigrants from the EU and asylum seekers have privileged access to the state's benefits, whilst people on work visas from Australia, India, Nigeria and Brazil have ""no access to public funds"" stamped in their passports.
Why don't we treat immigrants equally and require a period of residency before giving benefits?"
"optimist99
6 November 2011 12:59PM
Response to ChakaMouse, 6 November 2011 9:18AM
More Brits have taken advantage of the EU and found jobs
elsewhere in the EU than there are EU immigrants in the UK.
Your sons should go the Germany and look for work -
over a million vacancies.
But they'd have to learn German and sweat to get a decent job
in Germany wouldn't they?
I've done it - they can too.

http://news.migrationwatch.org.uk/2009/02/eu-workers-in-uk-three-or-four-times-number-of-brits-working-in-europe.html
You talk absolute rubbish,love your name though."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 9:18am
As if introducing work permits would solve this problem - these are international gangs exploiting the economically impoverished.
Not sure what 'indigenous Brits' are, but they are probably related to the Brits who have been engaging in global exploitation of labour markets for hundreds of years.
The British are the last people who should be complaining about individuals or companies relocating for economic reward. Maybe your sons should try it."
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"I trust that the Russian man and his wife concerned are to be brought to justice in the UK? If not, why not?
The Russians have their own scores to settle with Lithuania which dared to leave the USSR and this case is just one local aspect of the thuggery of post-Soviet Russian politics.
On the possible involvement of the Churches, I'll just say that the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate has turned itself into a department of the Russian State and I would not expect any action from that quarter. I'd be very happy to be proved wrong, however."
"Response to SwissedCottage, 06 November 2011 1:09pm
because those from A8 countries had to work for a full year under Home Office's ""Worker's Registraton Scheme"" to be entitled to benefits during a transition period that ended this year, plus surely all those 'indigenous' Brits abroad can't wait to have their 'privileges' taken away, and perhaps Nigeria and Australia are not exactly in EU? what with this nonsense of comparing the standard of living in Eastern and Western Europe, if you are not 'greedy' and so eager to work, you will go and do so for £150 a month in the very Lithuania and enjoy life, how dare they come here and work shit jobs during shit hours for shit pay in shit conditions and even manage to save some and send it home."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 9:18am

Actually a few months ago the other EU countries had to finally drop their restrictions on eastern block migrants from the 2004 EU enlargement. Nowadays Poles or Slovaks have an automatic right to work in Germany, France or any other country of the EU. In common with most other EU countries, the UK has imposed restrictions on workers from the 2007 accession countries up until 2014, which is the maximum allowed."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 12:00pm
Chaka, any point you might have had to make (to me, at least) is getting lost in your ""hoards at the doors"" invective. All I'm hearing you say is:
Lithuanian unemployed willing to work = greedy
Brit unemployed willing to work = victim
If either of your other sons was to find a work opportnity in one of Europe's more prosperous countries, would you really advise them against it on the grounds that it would be greedy and wreck the local economy? Did you not earlier claim to have worked elsewhere in the EU yourself?"
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 12:00pm

What world do you live in? You sound like the populist American tea baggers with your talk of ""British people"". I'm happy to say this country has always been divided - broad consensus is terribly undemocratic dont you know? And let this ""wedge"" you talk of stay firmly in place as to distinguish people like you from people like me."
"Your post has nothing to do with:
a) labour vetoing the hold on A8 migration and allowing us to be swamped while the rest of the EU wasn't, and
b) the fact that both employment and self-employment are regulated in other EU countries but not in the UK.
But thanks at least for not whining about imagined racism like some of the other people in this thread, who obviously concider it' a thought crime to stick up for British born peoples rights."
"Response to coffeetable, 06 November 2011 10:09am
Acepost coffeetable."
"Response to OlSlov, 06 November 2011 10:12am
OLSov
Correct in general terms, but as Ukraine is not in the EU, not in its specific terms at all.
Look up the member countries of the EU."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 1:56pm
indeed, who are these 'other people' 'whining about imagined racism' at 11:51AM? and as for your eye-opener of a 'fact that both employment and self-employment are regulated in other EU countries but not in the UK', it should make headlines tomorrow. I'm swamped."
"ChakaMouse: if you're so worried about all this black economy and foreign workers being paid less than MW, how about asking for more enforcement of tax and employment issues? Or would that be too ""socialist"" for you?
You might be being shat on from a great height, but the elites who are doing so just love people like you who pick on other easily identifiable outsider groups, and thus deflect blame from themselves.
I knew a couple of Slovak guys in my absolute beginners English class who got care home jobs and you had to admire their get-up-and-go arriving in a country with no local language skills. Incidentally, the students in my classes always knew the minimum wage laws..
Just out of interest what qualifications do your sons have? We might come up with some useful ideas."
Because they are wealtthy, and the British don't tend to punish the wealthy for their crimes.
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 9:18am
I'm sure the Russian gentleman mentioned in the article would be happy to take on both of your sons for a spot of housekeeping."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 10:38am
Again using France as an example, regardless of where you are from within the EU, working as a self-employed tradesman requires you to register under the Auto-Entrepenuer scheme (Google it, O wise one) which entails you proving your qualifications in the trade you wish to follow and then paying your Social Taxes and a guestimate of your Income Taxes 3 months in advance before you can trade.
Trading unregistered (""on the black"") leads to arrest, fining and expulsion for the tradesman and fines for the employer.
You largely misunderstand the context.
This French rule applies to everybody, French nationals and non-French EU natioanla alike. Its an attempt to avoid anyone trading in the black.
If you want such a system in the UK, it would apply to everybody.
Can you imagine the hysterical screaming from the right, if the Labour government had introduced such a scheme here? Not to mention all those housholders who damm well want their local plumbers, builders, gardeners etc working in the black, when it comes to their own bill?"
"Response to Aquinasotic, 06 November 2011 1:25pm

Right on the nail!"
"Lecso
6 November 2011 2:13PM
Response to ChakaMouse, 6 November 2011 9:18AM
I'm sure the Russian gentleman mentioned in the article would be happy to take on both of your sons for a spot of housekeeping.
So you advocate slavery for her 2 sons?"
"I'm not in favour of capital punishment, but my first instinct when I hear stories of human trafficking and enslavement is that I want the perpetrators summarily shot in the head.
But, as we don't live in an Elizabethan revenge tragedy or Michael Winner movie, the least we can do is put them in prison for a while, confiscate their ill-gotten gains, and deport them back to the places they came from.
BTW
ChakaMouse may have expressed some of his opinions in intemperate terms, but he is essentially correct.
New Labour opened the floodgates at the behest of big business, not because there was an absolute shortage of skilled and unskilled workers, but because they wanted to drive wages for working class people down, in which they succeeded beautifully.
The first job of a government is to protect its citizens from harm and poverty, not to make its rich richer and its poor poorer.
And I speak as the child of immigrants (who came to the UK when there was virtual full employment)."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 1:56pm
""But thanks at least for not whining about imagined racism like some of the other people in this thread, who obviously concider it' a thought crime to stick up for British born peoples rights.""
No, I don't consider it a thought crime to stick up for British-born people's rights (or any-born people's rights), but I do consider it racist to make comments suggesting that every Eastern 'bloc' migrant is greedy and exploitative. And I find it hypocritical, to say the least, from someone who has openly claimed to have worked elsewhere in the EU.
And I still don't understand why this is being discussed in relation to an article about forced labour, as if the points you make above justify this gentleman's mistreatment..."
I spoke to someone who rents a house from a landlord about 15 miles from Thornbury, who was telling me how the landlord has loads of caravans full of illegal immigrants from all over the world, who he charges enormous rent for this accommodation - say £100 a week or something - and barely pays them more than that, and only gives them work when he's got any for them, and they all run off without their wages after a few days or weeks but an endless supply just keep coming. He also said a stupid guardian journalist rang him at home to ask him to rat on his landlord and get himself made homeless! Of course he said nowt. But it made me realise that our agriculture is probably run off the back of illegal immigrant labour, as is well-documented of France and the USA.
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"Response to Godeye, 06 November 2011 12:51pm
I am a UK citizen, living in an Eastern European country and earning, if not 3-4 times the UK national average wage, certainly enough to ensure a far better standard of living than I could have in England at the moment, and a fairly respectable income even if I were to move back. Before you ask I have no higher-education qualifications and am self-employed, I pay my taxes and worked hard to get where I am today.
So the answer to your question is: any country - it all depends on you."
"Response to Lecso, 06 November 2011 2:49pm
If what you say is true,why are all the highly-educated and skilled Eastern Europeans not following your example of working hard in their home countries to earn,as you say,3-4 the UK national average wage,instead of flocking hear to work for the minimum wage?"
"Now the Tories are in charge the EU will be free of cheap labour, slave labour and unemployed men looking for work in other countries and ruthless gang masters, exploiters and capitalist bastards.
No, wait, one of the main reasons for voting Tory is that you despise the unemployed and the welfare states and want people f**ked over."
"Response to Godeye, 06 November 2011 3:07pm
Your question was about where UK citizens can emigrate to and be better off than in their home country, so obviously my answer to that has nothing to do with the underlying causes of wage disparities between Eastern Europe and the UK. That's a pretty complex question, one for the economists to answer.
As it happens, there are highly-educated and skilled Eastern Europeans who can and do have a reasonable standard of living in their own countries, and less-educated and skilled ones too. In fact, most of those in my particular line of work do earn as much or more than I do. The situation is never as black and white as it seems - did you really think these countries are now completely empty, with their entire population all waiting to board the ferry at Calais?"
I'm confused as to how an article about a man being forced into unpaid labour has become a slanging match about eastern european workers vs english workers. It seems obvious that some of you are only commenting to push your own ideology through no matter if it is completely innapropriate and irrelevant considering the original article.
"The situation is never as black and white as it seems - did you really think these countries are now completely empty, with their entire population all waiting to board the ferry at Calais?
Your last sentence where you mention 'The situation is never as black and white as it seems' is indeed very true Lecso,although I may be veering slightly off-course, the town where I live(mentioned in the link below) has suffered the downside of the mass influx of Easter Europeans.I assume that the Eastern European town or city you live and work in isn't affected by you, and your fellow 1000's of UK migrant workers, anti-social behaviour? And yes,in my once quiet,small rural market town,it certainly feels like the Calais-Dover ferries have been very busy.The link I've provided will explain my point of the disadvantages that cheap foreign can bring to rural communities like mine,and btw,I'm also self-employed and have seen my standard of living decline due to cheap foreign competition.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037877/Boston-Lincolngrad-The-strange-transformation-sleepy-English-town.html"
"Response to Lecso, 06 November 2011 2:49pm

Then your skills are in demand and you are most probably not undercutting the local workforce. I also live in Eastern Europe, but I earn more than a local worker doing a similar job, because of my particular skill set.
I don't see a problem with immigration when there's a particular skills shortage, but when it's used to drive down wages for one particular group in society, I think it's damaging in the long-term.
The UK experienced a construction and services boom that could, if the government had had the courage and foresight, seen millions of long-term unemployed finally given a chance.
Instead those jobs were given to immigrants (whom I do not blame in the least) and the millions stayed on scrapheap.
Growing economies in Central/Eastern Europe are already witnessing the entry of immigrants from further East - and when they see their already low wages coming under pressure, they don't like it."
"Response to bumpmad, 06 November 2011 11:08am
are you advocating that UK citizens work on the side, completely undeclared, cash in hand and pay no tax ?
funny how a lot of tories, including rightwing journalists, advocate this as some kind of work ethic which is sadly lacking in the 'feckless' UK population. In reality it's just greed on the part of the UK based employers who hire immigrants in these circumstances
the rest of us here in the UK are damned if we do, damned if we don't and the deck is stacked against us"
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 1:56pm

ad a) My post had nothing to do with it, because I was responding to a post in which the poster seemed surprised that the Tories had not imposed work permits on workers from A8 countries, although for the past few months there has been a level playing field. Had he said ""Blair was wrong to allow unrestricted labour migration from A8 countries when most other EU states had placed restrictions on it"", I would have agreed with him whole-heartedly. I had nothing against Britain pressing from free movement of labour, but only within the context of the EU as a whole.
ad b) I can't write down every bloody thing I believe, but I too feel that employment regulations are far too lax in Britain, especially as unions are fairly much dead these days, so workers have to rely on legislative protection. There is no way that millions of people should be kept on zero-hour, temporary contracts for years on end."
"Response to Godeye, 06 November 2011 1:18pm
Migrationwatch is dodgy, xenophobic rightwing propaganda outfit.
Wouldn't believe a word they say."
"Response to ranelagh75, 06 November 2011 9:11am
Actually, if you'd bought the Observer today you would see it's prominent in the main paper."
"This seems to be a standard ""leftie"" mantra on here, but I've yet to see any solid evidence for it. Larger corporations tend to have the most stringent recruitment systems, so linguistically-challenged unskilled labour would be (a) not likely to get through any preliminary sorting process, and (b) not much use to them anyway. The main areas of the private sector relying on cheap foreign labour tend to be:-
1) struggling industries, such as farming, where the employers themselves are often not wealthy, and whose minimal profit margins, who cannot afford anything better (there is perhaps an argument here that the supermarkets are partly to blame for forcing down prices to farmers and other producers);
2) criminal enterprises set up by foreigners, often importing their own countrymen; and
3) the public sector (in fact, I wouldn't mind betting a small sum that this is really the biggest offender of all - eg local councils get caught employing not just a few illegal immigrants, but occasionally whole departments full; and let's not forget that other pro-immigration mantra ""the NHS would fall apart without immigrants"" as if raping the medical sytems of the Third World to steal their cheaper doctors and nurses is somehow something to be proud of).

How does it have anything to do with race when (a) it's about employment regulations, and (b) it involves fellow Europeans? Sounds like you're just playing the race card in order to prevent debate."
"I took up a repatriation matter with my MP - Nick Boles who passed it onto the Communities minister - Andrew Stunell thus I got a reply about how the issue was being tacked re Polish who had failed to find a place in the UK.
Perhaps Andrew could be asked on this matter and we could see what the government is actually doing about it now the Guardian hereby raises it.
I would be interested not just to see the story, but also proactive responses to it."
"I've know about things like this for a while. These scumbags are abusing the benefits system and genuine people like myself and many others are the victims of it. Less slices of the pie to go round and all that, fewer jobs to those who could be working and less dole money for them while they areunemployed.
They traffic women here to work as sex slaves.
They traffic people here to work in danegerous jobs below the minimum wage, and/or underut established expectations of pay.
Now they traffic people here to sign them on the dole and claim benefit- it is totatl madness and insanity
The Beveridge report and the welfare state et al were all devised in the days before mass communication, migration, open borders economic planning, and cheap flights within reach of everyone. It could not have forseen these things.
Do we want a welfare state or not. People like my dad who is disabled have a whole lifetime of contribution to society and so justly deserve it. I myself am unemployed and have no real work history, obviously I don't want this to be. And if on the one hand, there are migrant workers in jobs I could be doing, and if their are foregin gangs abusing the benefits system, there eventually the welfare state will be killed off."
"Response to RonanTheLibrarian, 06 November 2011 6:39pm
"" .....but I do consider it racist to make comments suggesting that every Eastern 'bloc' migrant is greedy and exploitative.
How does it have anything to do with race when (a) it's about employment regulations, and (b) it involves fellow Europeans? Sounds like you're just playing the race card in order to prevent debate.""
Wrong, Librarian. My point was exactly that: the commentor was not referring to employment regulations when insisting that Eastern European workers are greedy and expoitative by nature. If that doesn't sound racist to you (whether or not the commentor -- not me -- was right or wrong to classify Eastern Europeans as a homogenous group distinct by nature) then back to those books for you I suggest!"
For Chakamouse, Godeye et al. here's some footage of parasitical migrant workers causing trouble at a local drinking establishment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-HAPAJdiLY&feature=related
ALL UK AND WORLD RESIDENTS ARE SLAVES. MOST JUST DONT KNOW IT YET.ITS COMING THOUGH
"I noticed that the editing team can't spell the name right twice, ""Gediminas"" becomes ""Gediminus"", and then ""Gedimanas"" in his own right in the print version.
Anyhow, some fresh data from Lithuania: official unemployment figure as of 4th Nov - 214 400 (10.37% of working age population). Of those, 22.4% are under 25 years old. 52.5% ain't had a job for under 2 years, 20.1% for over 2 years, 22.5% never had a job, and the rest are self employed or farmers or the like. And now a real revelation - of all unemployed, a whopping 14.8% were receiving some sort of unemployment benefit.
Given that these are official estimates, you can safely add another 10% to the pool oof unemployed, and then no-one knows the exact population size, which varies from 3.5 to 2.5 million. Apparently there are plethora of blogs simulating survival on local equivalent of minimum wage, which is some 160 quid a month, and at most optimistic estimates leaves you with just under 2 quid a day to feed yourself, after bills and such. so greedy."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 9:18am
Dear Chakamouse,
You are very brave to comment on this site about your own personal experience with the flood of uncontrolled immigration we have been exposed to in this country.
I just dont grasp how other people commenting here can be so glib as to what has gone on. The main feeling is that people who moan about it are either racist or are not compasionate.
I would say they are the racist ones and are also not compassionate.
When one has personally suffered because we have let too many in at one time; its hard to strech compassion. The reality is that we can only cope with x amount of people. If you have a maternity ward that is geared up to an average amount of births per X, the simple fact is - you can cope with that amount per X.
That goes for all our services. can we blame anyone for seeing a good thing and wanting to come here to take adavantage of what we offer? Of course not. Do we want to offer and share what we have with people who suffer in the world? Personally YES. Are we a nation of pure british - by that I mean white anglo saxon been here for fifteen generations?
No we are not - we have a "" rich "" mix in this country, and I love going to Southall - I adore silks and saris and having a really nice curry.....I love Lebanese food and the Edgeware road, Shwarma, Tabuleh etc....I love the Italains in Soho and China Town. I even like the Polish Kababanos sausages in Tescoes.
What I dont like though, is the fact that my daily life has been affected by the uncontrolled immigration allowed under labour and now not being addressed effectively and swiftly by the conservatives.
My brother was put out of Business by our new "" guests""...why?
Because they live packed into houses, for very cheaply, they not have mortgages to pay, they do not have taxes and NI to pay! What they send home means they can live very well. They do not spend in our shops they are a very thrifty peoples! So my brother offering x amount per hour - with mortgage to pay and all the rest of course is going to be under cut by a man with only a pittance to pay as he is sharing a house or room with many others.
My personal situation has a sister in law who is Polish. She has been here for 29 years and never taken benefits, always worked, got a masters and is now in a very good job paying 40% tax. But she is tight! She doesnt boost our ecconomy through her spending my any means! Then I had a house next to me full of at least 8 people from Lithuania and a few from poland. They worked cash in hand locally - no NI, no tax.....living on a shoe string ....
They caused untold social problems for the houses either side and further down our road. We eventually had a house fire from them, endless environmental health visits out....fire engines...constant complaints to the council, then one of the lads stabbed somoene in the face on my road! Police - court, cells, magistrates etc.....
How much did that house cost the tax payer - was the landlord paying tax on those residents with no tennancy agrements! They barely spoke English! How do they benefit us?
They nearly drove me and my neighbours to the mental hospital. Two years we suffered and then after suffering a fire - we have finally got a family next door. But is the problem removed? No they have moved four doors down causing misery there? is it because they are foriegn? Yes to a degree because they dont speak english 0 you cant communicate with them!
My personal daily life has been affected deeply by our un controlled immigratation. Who do we blame? Well I blame all the gate keepers!
People on here though talking about fab wages in Poland, how people who arnt happy with thier own status poor scorn on the poor Eastern Europeans who are so resoursceful that they eek a living out here etc. .. anyone who complains must be racist we should learn lessons from them.
Well I tell all those people - what am I doing? I am lobbying my MP EVERY DAY , TO stop this tide of immigration, how local services are suffering without resources to back to them up - because we are in a global credit crisis....becasue we cannot cope with the numbers., i am signing every petition left righ and center. For two years I had to fight about the house next door - so I could live in my own house without constant loud pumping music 24/7, without 8 or more smoking by our windows in heat waves rendering us withtout FRESH AIR....i am fighting here to make my daugter go to a good school becasue its way over subscribed.
So if the Polish are so incredibly resourceful adn brilliant.
Can I ask why they are not in Poland trying to make thier own country so great?
I dont blame anyone for coming here .....but why not use thier amazing skills to make THIER country as supposeldy great as ours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Response to optimist99, 06 November 2011 5:35pm
I dont need to read their website I see the effect in my daily life on the front line in one of the hardest hit areas. I see the effect on my local services. We are under strain. Is it thier fault? No, but its our fault to let them in."
"Response to NapoleonKaramazov, 06 November 2011 6:48pm
Not every person from the Eastern Block is the same, my sister in law came here 28 years ago and has not once claimed benefit - and now she has a good job and pays us 40% tax.
However, as with all peoples and all countries - not everyone you let in is good for us. And when you let in ...how many million and you have something to offer - of course a percentage is going to take advanatage of that.
A labour MP wrote to someone saying...dont worry about your concerns, we predict 13,000 will come here.
Well it seems to some of us that millionas have come here and whilst some people will even by default as somoene suggested by not paying tax, not paying NI etc..but by simply buying food as someone suggested pay tax indireclty its naive to think that what we offer as a nation will not be expolited by people.
We are seen and known world wide as an easy touch! If you are poor, you have had a hard life of course you are going to head for somewhere where life is cushioned. Is that wrong! NO, but its like saying.....is it wrong for one of our impovirished children to mug us in the street? Becuase they have nothing and we have a watch!
When we have one of the worst child poverty ratios, yes i think its disgusting to let in millions of Eastern Europeans.
We have our own problems and we also have many nationalities living here and we are also one of the biggest contributers round the world in aid.
We are not a cold and selfish nation by any means.
We are in a credit crunch, are elderly are deciding wherther to heat thier homes or have a meal, our children are poor and the poverty gap which widened under labour makes it more impossible for them to climb out - I thikn its awful adn racist to us to flood us with millions of people from another nation meaning we cant even reach our own!
Its aBOUT VOLUME NOT RACE."
"Response to OlSlov, 06 November 2011 10:12am
Don't you see the fundamental unfairness in opening up a country's labour market to such an extent that somebody like you can think it is right to recommend that a persons sons leave their home country to scrap around for work on the other side of Europe?

The EU works for the gang masters (read, any of the increasingly concentrated number of employers) who get to drive down wages.
The political elite are terrified of democracy because it would blow their scam a mile high. From now on, if you live in London, then it is time to get used to having less wealth, less security, less community and more X factor. And not even that rubbish will allow a democracy!"
"Response to BeatonTheDonis, 06 November 2011 5:01pm
This problem has reared it s head in africa where the chinese are brought in to build in to build railways and the like."
"Response to NapoleonKaramazov, 06 November 2011 6:48pm
Where we live there was a panoram program about how meals on wheels were stopped by the local authority as they had to provide support in shcools to the hundreds on non english speaking immigrants children!
So an old person who has paid into our system all thier lives and faithfully worked is now abandoned because of x amount of budget and chidlren who need taking care of from people who have never paid into our system!"
"Response to themoon, 06 November 2011 3:42pm
Its because people are so angry. We can only absorb so many people at one time. And we have absorbed over the years. A prediction of Thirteen thousand coming here has in reality turned into hundreds of thousands!
If we had the wealth and space to say ....OK this school can take 150 extra pupils, lets use our wealth and space to expand the school and provide more teachers there wouldnt be a problem.
We are in a credit crucn and we are an island.
So who suffers?
The children , the people here....
People are so angry and thats why anything on immigration is a very emotive subject."
"Response to Godeye, 06 November 2011 4:22pm
I feel very sorry for you, I have also seen my standard of living decline because i cant rely on my two local hosptials.
I had a serious burn accident last year and as my husband was driving me to hospital I wasnt even sure they would admit me as in our local paper it said the a and e was closed as it was too full and dont go there.
I want to have another baby but I have a fear of birth and my two local hospitals have been so swamped that they really should be closed down.
The midwvies at one said - they cannot cope with the increase in population - that was four years ago and they were excellent. now at least 5 babies have died and the hospital had to pay damages. the other one isnt even worth considering as its so dangerous.
This is simpy due to the sheer volume that has flooded us.
I feel sorry the midwives who do an amazing job but there is a limit as to what they can do.
I am struggling to get my daughter into catholic shcool - all poles are usually catholic...why shouldnt i feel angry when my family through the generations has been paying into the system and now we cant get her into school!"
"Response to thefrontline, 06 November 2011 9:33pm
did you just create a profile to vent your frustration at being absolutely hopeless? what do Chinese grabbing resources in Africa to sustain their manufacturing boom have to do with gangs exploiting eastern European economic migrants in UK? have you read the article or you just saw 'eastern Europe' and went off. and how are these people coming here to look for work being 'racist', mind boggles, are they to blame for who you elect to your Parliament and the laws they pass? geez, even your sister-in-law 'is tight'. this is beyond a joke."
"Response to OlSlov, 06 November 2011 10:12am
Actually is this ladies family have paid into our sytstem to provide a welfare state - a democracy and as some said create an enviroment that is seen as "" a land of milk and honey"" then i would expect that land to provide them with jobs.
Sure ..no welfare state, no NHS - yes - we are all on our own, but that is not how we operate here and our elderly have fought for our country I would expect them to be able to get meals on wheels from the local council. Does the UK owe our elderly nothing too?
Is it right that services are pulled because money has to be diverted to local schools that have to admit children? Does the UK owe its own children something? The elderly something?
If the whole of Europe was a level playing field offering equal opportnuties and benefits then yes - lets all go to the ukraine.
Why should her sons however go to the Ukraine or Poland, when they dont get the same benfits as they do here where their ancestors have paid into the pot.
The Eastern Block is not communist any more - why dont they work on thier own politicans and fight thier to make life better in thier own homeland. When they do that, we can then all go there and enjoy what they enjoy here."
"_AT_ thefrontline
ok... 8 posts in row - you've had your say.
breath in, breath out - try to calm down.
wow!"
"Response to oivejoivej, 06 November 2011 9:46pm
At some point Oivejoivej we will probably have to relocate yes....i would like my child to have a certain standard of education and I would like to give birth in future in a hosptial that can take me in and look after me. That is now becoming impossible here because the numbers that have flooded in - with no additional midwives or budget to accomodate any of it is not there.
The people coming here to work are not "" racist"" they are human and want to survive. Some people on here imply that they are somehow more resoursful than the indigenous population THAT is racist.
No they are not to blame, and yes we are to blame but people are waking up to that fact and are starting to fight back.
However there does remain the question - why didnt they stay at home with thier so called "" resourcefulnes"" and fight for the same rights there and create the same opportunities there that we have here.
We are not on a level playing field and as such the idtios in power at the time who said THIRTEEN THOUSAND would come here should we open up the flood gates should be persoanlly responsible for them.
My sister in law is tight - is not beyond a joke.
We are dealing with people who have lived under a regime that has been very hard. We are soft in the uk and the powers that estimated a mere 13 thousand to come here have no understanding of that. If they had one iota of what they had been through compared to what we have - they have never made the mistake in the first place of letting us be so vulnerable.
I am not "" hopeless"" i have been fighting tooth and nail for over two years for the rigt to reside in my own home in peace without disturbance from a house full of Eastern Europeans next door, as have my neigbours as far as four doors down on each side.
They are without address, without a tennancy agrement, they are a shadowy underclass that moves without much detection and are paid cash in hand.
I did not elect the current or past government personally through my vote and I am fighting to get them removed.
Wy do people become emotive about this? Why are people so angry? Why is it an issue!"
"Response to OlSlov, 06 November 2011 10:12am
Sure of course 'eastern bloc' workers have the same rights as uk workers. I work with polish, hungarians, chezchs and slovacians who have worked for under the minimum wage, is this what is meant by undercutting? Does this mean that to get a job people should offer to work for under the minimum wage?Maybe? I have had to do it before when money was tight...but I wish I didn't have to. Maybe i just have to remember to try and 'get business' but don't be a masochistic."
"Response to thefrontline, 06 November 2011 10:08pm

there are so many wrongs in this one sentence that I don't even knwo where to start, but the bottom line is, yes, they come here to work because they see no future back home, and there are those that will jump at this opportunity and abuse them even further, if their resourcefullness was valued back in their home countries, I'm sure no-one would even think about coming here to live on the 'frontline' stealing hospital beds and school desks from 15th generation anglo-saxons, who are just as hopeless at dealing with prolems of their own making, so welcome to the border-free reality, it works both ways."
"thefrontline

OF course, it's not about foreign people who are 'good' or 'bad', it's just people take advantage of opportunities, as humans always will. People from the new EU countries got a chance to at least triple their wages and so to them it is perfectly reasonable decision to migrate for economic reasons. Of course there are bad eggs amongst them, just like amongst anyone.
The problem is that what is an opportunity to some is a loss to another."
"Response to ChakaMouse, 06 November 2011 9:18am

Lucky your sons had that job stolen from them, eh?"
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This isn't just a London problem, CRI have been working with rough sleepers in Leeds since 2004 and more recently A2 and A8 citizens in West Yorks and Greater Fens since 2010. What we're also seeing is that marked increase in homelessness and organised criminal activity amongst the Central and Eastern European foreign nationals. In the last 12 months, we've assisted 164 individuals in West Yorkshire, of which 63% of these reported experiencing exploitation. Working with the embassies has been pivotal in supporting individuals to return home safely.
"Response to willardmubvumbi, 06 November 2011 5:35am
No, it's not.
As long as there are greedy manipulative people on this planet there will be slavery and exploitation of weaker people.
What is astonishing is that the authorities know perfectly we that this goes on and cut the numbers police and other law enforcement agencies which could help to curtail the traffic in people."
Lithuania is not eastern Europe. Interesting that you call it that, though. Says something about the geography of your mind.
"Any news on prosecutions?
* The russian man and his wife?
* The factory owner?
* The farmer?"
"Response to coffeetable, 06 November 2011 11:18am
Here, here."
"What a pity this thread has been derailed by the wider debate - and yes, whilst employment and immigration laws are part of the broader issue, the actual story is about modern day slavery and organised crime.
Somewhere we all need to keep compassion for those ruled by fear - fear of poverty, fear of hunger, fear of the future, fear of their own mortality. This man, sitting on a bench with no hope and a damaged hand wasn't 'greedy' - 'greedy' is when he has a 3 bed semi, food on the table, a car in the drive and satellite TV ....AND STILL WANTS MORE.
What he wanted was some food, a job, some certainty and a future, So he took a gamble, into a world he could probably neither conceive in the abstract or believe when he arrived there. What he got was not a job - as he'd hoped - but imprisonment, abuse, isolation, bullyiing, an unwitting victim of a fraud AND the fear of being in a foreign country, with culture shock, shame and dismay. His captors had the upper hand, and he must have been afraid, powerless and despairing.
That is the tragedy - men, women and children who's lives are derailed and ruined by the absolute greed and inhumanity of others. The cocklers on Morecombe sands, the lady on the farm, losing her leg, sex workers raped in streets and in brothels, Roma children drugged and begging on street corners, and further afield, children and the poor chained to factory landlords and loan sharks. It happens all around the world and we think we're so damn civilised.
The article was bringing it home - slavery is increasingly happening, right under our noses. Not just to women and children - who we traditionally see as the weak and vulnerable - but to grown men too.
Time for a wake up call."
"Wow, that poor guy. And a few months ago there was that case where all those men were discovered at a camp being forced to work for pathetic wages - a mixture of Eastern European and British men. Definitely this is being much overlooked! I don't think it is because they are men, I think it is general failings on the part of investigators and law enforcement (although possibly that they are overworked and understaffed too), because it is rare that a trafficker of women is brought to justice too.
I do not blame people for coming here; if I thought I could get a better standard of living in Eastern Europe I would not hesitate to try my luck there. Greedy? Yes, but normal attitude too. British people have just as much capacity for greed as anyone else. (I do not really think that trying to improve your circumstances, earn more money etc. is 'greedy'. Earning money by doing work is not like stealing out of someone's pocket, regardless of socio-economic complexities.)
British (and white!) homeless people are targeted too, it is not just an issue about foreign migrants. These gang leaders are ruthless and will exploit anyone they can. The police and authorities need to stand up to them properly now before the situation gets out of control."
you reading this have and always will be a slave unless you wake up.
with your taxes and your tow the line social behaviour you have armed your jailer with weapons that will definatly be used against YOU if you dont do as they say. this is so called freedom . if you believe it you are lost
Please help, your support is needed! Canada has been identified as both a transit and a destination point for human trafficking, and Vancouver (located in British Columbia) has been singled out by the U.S. State Department as a port of major concern. However, British Columbia’s Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General, Shirley Bond, drastically cut funding to the province’s Office To Combat Trafficking In Persons. This occurred in July of 2011, and resulted in the termination of the Executive Director, Robin Pike. There is no longer an Executive Director position, and as it stands there are only 2 employees working in this office, period. Please join me in telling my province’s Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General and Premier, that this is unacceptable. http://www.change.org/petitions/minister-of-public-safety-and-solicitor-general-increase-octips-budget-to-750000-annually-and-rehire-robin-pike
Who pays your salary Brendan?
"This one has been debated before Brendan, many times on CiF and the weight of bloggers' opinions are against you. Unfettered free markets are bad because they are heavily weighted in favour of those who already have large amounts of capital.
Integration is a worthy goal but the current disparity between economies like Romania & Bulgaria and the UK will cause huge problems for the working man here, where wealth gaps will grow unless the wealthy take a huge spoonful of medicine.
Factually, you are also incorrect. Take a look at:
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/
Don't you know nuffink? Blimey Brendan, you really have been hoodwinked by NuLab - or were you made General Secretary of the TUC by them?"
I take it, Mr Barber, you're not unemployed and desperately looking for work at the moment.
"The big disparity between Bulgaria and Romania is indeed the cause of the large numbers that may want to come to the UK. However the fact is that they come here to do work which we might consider poorly paid, but they certainly don't.
Brendan is absolutely correct that people are completely blinded by the idea that there is a fixed amount of work to go round. In reality more a larger labour pool makes more jobs economic and worth doing, creating more wealth in the process. However the one way to hobble this is to over-regulate and prevent Eastern Europeans from working unless paid the union wage. Regulation like that would (and I wonder whether Brendan is well aware of this) would prevent the increase in jobs to accomodate new arrivals.
It is actually likely that the wages available for non-skilled work will remain stagnant. However I would suggest that this isn't a reason to block out our labour markets but a reason to seek to concentrate more on getting people to develop to do more skilled work."
"I think what Mr Barber says is right, and he is not playing along to any New Labour tune. It makes perfect sense. As he indicates, there is in fact no way that immigration can be stopped (even assuming we would want to) because of the EU's rules - so even if restrictions are put up, then Romanians and Bulgarians will work self-employed.
Using MIGRATION WATCH to put people's figure's straight? Isn't migration watch a shadowy sort of propaganda vessel for the Telegraph/Conservative block?
What is most pertinient about Mr Barber's piece is his criticism of the scaremongering about pressure on public services from large numbers of immigrants from eastern Europe (central Europe mostly in fact, but I'll let it pass). Frustrated local authorities and reactionaries alike harp on about the fact that they 'can't cope' with all the new arrivals from E.Europe, while at the SAME TIME it is ofen staff from Eastern Europe who are relieving the pressure on public services by coming to work in them (as doctors, dentists, nurses, midwives, anaethnetists, even TEACHERS)!
The Irish system sounds positive, decent and sensible. Looks like Britain is a few steps behind. Again."
Economics, economics, economics ... why are some people so willing to reduce an entire society to nothing but economics? Why, especially, do those inclined towards Socialism seem so willing to do when the topic is immigration? Society should come before economics when it comes to matters such as immigration levels. If society is unhappy with the speed and scale of immigration - and clearly much of British society is indeed unhappy with it - then that's what should matter most, not the clamourings of business for cheap labour.
Economics, economics, economics ... why are some people so willing to reduce an entire society to nothing but economics? Why, especially, do those inclined towards Socialism seem so willing to do when the topic is immigration? Society should come before economics when it comes to matters such as immigration levels. If society is unhappy with the speed and scale of immigration - and clearly much of British society is indeed unhappy with it - then that's what should matter most, not the clamourings of business for cheap labour.
A slightly partisan article i'd say. My view isn't about the amount of work to go round etc, because there is always work to be done, but according to my understanding of economics, the price of labour drops the more you have available, so who makes the money? The owner of the buisness that can and will exploit cheap labour, certainly not the immigrant worker. Also, this is an island and we have an increasing shortage of suitable homes, that don't become ghetto's and thus compound the race problems experienced in those areas.. but again that doesn't matter when you live in 'the big house'... the facts are people re drawn here like flies round s*** because even if you do have a skill to sell, someone will exploit your sitaution or if you don't want to be expolited, do nothing and still earn more than at home... I'm not being racist I'm being realist.. otherwise why not stop off and trade your wares in the other countries around you? They are easier for travel back to see relatives, easier to get support via the same means, they are 'free countires' that will give you the rights you are entitled to...... the buisness sector will encourage this because they can milk it.. we just have to lump it unlike you Brendan
"I am confused as to why people on the left are generally pro-immigration and those on the right are generally against it.
If you are right-wing and believe in free markets then why shouldn't people be able to move freely and work wherever they like? If you believe in the free movement of capital then why not free movement of labour? And aren't all these Poles just doing what Norman Tebbit suggested all those years ago? They have 'got on their bikes'. If British workers lose out it is, using the hard-headed logic of the right, up to them to learn new skills or do as the Poles have done and emigrate to a country where they will be in demand.
But the left must also face the fact that immigration does tend to benefit the advantaged and penalise those at the bottom of the pile. No wonder all those big firms came out recently to say they are in favour of more people coming to the UK! There is also a risk to social cohesion (lots of incompatible cultures side by side) which means a rise in individualistic attitudes. It is far harder to promote the concept of the 'common good' when people feel they have little in common with each other."
"I am confused as to why people on the left are generally pro-immigration and those on the right are generally against it.
If you are right-wing and believe in free markets then why shouldn't people be able to move freely and work wherever they like? If you believe in the free movement of capital then why not free movement of labour? And aren't all these Poles just doing what Norman Tebbit suggested all those years ago? They have 'got on their bikes'. If British workers lose out it is, using the hard-headed logic of the right, up to them to learn new skills or do as the Poles have done and emigrate to a country where they will be in demand.
But the left must also face the fact that immigration does tend to benefit the advantaged and penalise those at the bottom of the pile. No wonder all those big firms came out recently to say they are in favour of more people coming to the UK! There is also a risk to social cohesion (lots of incompatible cultures side by side) which means a rise in individualistic attitudes. It is far harder to promote the concept of the 'common good' when people feel they have little in common with each other."
"The economic benefits of immigration in developed countries tend to be relatively slight, as the OECD put it:
""Most studies suggest that immigration confers small net gains in terms of per capita output to the host country, but the distribution of the benefits is not necessarily even and depends on the qualification structure of the immigrant and native-born workforce.""
So jobs that are not readily filled by foreign labour, such as journalists, will be less affected, but sandwich makers probably need to get ready for a future of falling real wages. Hey, cheap sandwiches!
I recall one Dutch study which showed that immigration had a negative economic impact, but I think that was connected to family reunification - if low-paid workers (who are already being subsidised by the state for health, housing etc.) bring in grandparents, non-working relatives etc, then it is a huge hit on the social security budget. The Spanish already have a form of this problem with retired Brits on the Costas.
The impact on the supplying countries should be considered, the emigrants will often be some of their most able people.
But Romanians are more likey to head for Spain, as there is already a sizable Romanian community there (12 out of the 200 plus killed in the Madrid bombings were Romanian)."
I am puzzled by this unholey allience between the left and right. I can understand the motivations of big bizz who want a large pool of skilled qualified labour but why do the liberal left think it is a good thing as well? Also, how is it a solution to bring in skilled people when we should be training them ourselves for the future. AS the auther says, they will come and go so if they all depart we will be up s*it creek without a paddle! Already there is firm evidence of employers preferring foreign imports instead of running apprentice schemes. Add to this the employers preference for 'younger' workers and you have both school leavers and those over about 45 unable to get work at any price! Believe me , I was in that position for sometime until I eventually found work. And why is it that the press always believe the nonsense of the CBI and their ILK about labour shortages/skills/abilities etc etc?
"Economically speaking the impact of immigration is complex. Obviously GDP will go up because you have more people contributing, but generally GDP per head increases slightly as well. But as has been pointed out, not everyone benefits equally. There will be more competition for jobs which require no or little training or skills, hence on balance the wages for these jobs will increase less than average or perhaps (although less likely) fall slightly. On the other hand the cost of producing these goods or services will fall, so the cost of an average basket of goods will fall, making everyone relatively richer. It also makes more things economically viable which in turn increases economic activity and produces more work (including more unskilled jobs) which partially offests any negative effects on low skilled workers and provides an extra benefit for skilled workers.
There have in fact been studies of immigration (mainly in the US) which show that second order effects on the contribution of children are very positive because immigrants tend to be more aspirational and their children (adjusting for income) do much better at school than the base population."
"These points have been made over and over again, in response to pieces by Polly Toynbee, among others, who seems to be the kind of liberal that Brendan Barber is aiming at with his opening salvo. I TOTALLY agree with him. That kind of liberalism which is so short-sighted that it scurries back to a kind of over-protective nannying attitude towards the ""low-paid"" in the UK when it seems that the poor blighters aren't earning enough to afford three foreign holidays a year any more - only two - doesn't really cut any ice with me.
If people bothered to remember we actually live in the EU and while I understand that this is not something many Brits are pleased about or interested in, if you don't like the free movement of goods and services that goes along with it, vote against Britain's membership of the EU. I am sure that the free movement of goods and services can be exploited for ill purposes, sure, but it can also have positive effects, such as having some midwives, nurses, doctors, dentists, plumbers, builders, bus drivers etc.
If you want to change it, you need to convince the government to invest serious money in structural development of the systems and procedures needed to get local economies working more effectively in the regions of central Europe. I read about one case in south-east Poland where it's easier to find a job in Britain online than to find a job in Poland - not because there are no jobs in Poland, but because the systems for advertising them are so poor. That's just one example. Of course, billions of EU structural funds are being poured into Central/Eastern Europe, but they take time to have effect, because it takes time for the investments to be realised. If you want to speed that up, support more investment in that region, not more investment in wars in Iraq and, possibly, Iran"
Gombrowicz - Or more investment in education in this country - too many British people lack the vocational skills that we require, hence the vacuum being filled by the influx of migrant workers.
"Brendan Barber : ""The last few weeks have seen that most unedifying spectacle - liberal people trying desperately to justify illiberal attitudes.""
What 'liberal' people are you talking about? Surely you cannot possibly mean Opus Dei's very own Ruth Kelly who is scary on a well lit day just watching on TV but would be positively terrifying to encounter in person.
Ruth Kelly is NOT a liberal. She has so far as I can tell NEVER been a liberal. I doubt that she ever will be one."
Absolutely, Metatarsal.
"Brendan, a sensible, unemotional article. You highlighted the most important point, which is the need to protect ALL worker's rights, the minimum wage, and to catch and prosecute employers who are abusing migrant workers, abuse being particularly prevalent in construction, agribusiness and restaurant/hospitality sectors.
There are however, a number of emotive issues that must be addressed:
1) Deportation of criminal immigrants. This is an issue that divides opinion, with those supporting it being wrongly branded racists. My own view is that immigrants who get involved in crime in this country have lost their right to stay, and that should I be representing my country abroad, I would want such criminal compatriots removed, who sully my name and those of the thousands of my compatriots who have come to work.
2) Integration. There should be information/induction provided to new immigrants, highlighting important differences between society in Britain and the society where they originate. Racist, you say? Well, next time an Eastern European runs into you on the roundabout because he assumes he has right of way, remember this one. Or, indeed for them to avoid being arrested for illegal fishing of rivers. These are practicalities that can reduce a lot of friction.
3) Social Welfare. Currently, we have a large number of seasonal or temporary workers, however, over time, many may plan to settle here permanently. When the inevitable economic downturn comes, we then have a higher number of people overall who will be claiming social welfare. Presumably the social welfare payments in Britain will be more attractive than the equivalent in their home countries, which would be a reason to stay.
While I welcome the immigrants who are contributing to society while bettering their quality of life, we must not be afraid to talk openly about real issues, currently the PC-brigade tend to brand everyone a racist who raises these. Between the PC-brigade on one extreme and the BNP on the other extreme, there is a sensible middle ground that we can and must tread, the path of honest and open debate."
"""The biggest myth is that migrant workers are causing unemployment. Yet those parts of the country that are seeing job losses are not those where migrant workers are most prevalent.""
If the immigrant workers go to where there are well paid vacancies, they will press down wage rates in those areas. This will then provide less incentive for people in less well-off parts of the UK where jobs are scarce to uproot themselves to where the better opportunities are.
And regarding skills shortages, there is no pressure on business or government to do anything about it if cheap, imported labour can be substituted.
So the unions and the government think there is no need for concern about Romanian and Bulgarian accession. What's the forecast? 10,000? That probably means a couple of million.
""The truth is that government can do little in practice to restrict Bulgarians and Romanians.""
Oh, I see. Well, in practice that may mean having to change some big things as well as some little things. I'm not entirely clear why the people of Britain (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, still, just) shouldn't have a say in whom they share their homeland with.
""Our best response is not to yield to little England, but recognise that the best way of avoiding a rush to the bottom is to fully embrace Europe, and that means accepting the free movement of labour as well as capital and goods.""
Ah, yes, fully embracing Europe. I think the tide of history might be unnoticeably turning on that one. But we shall see."
"Here`s two reasons not to like the floods of immigrant workers -
A They just encourage the UK to go for short term solutions. If we need more doctors or nurses or plumbers, we need to start thinking about how they are to trained.
B What`s going to happen to Poland if it is deprived of its young people? Something will step into that vacuum. At a guess, it`ll be Third World immigration to Poland, because even Poland is nice compared to most places out there. To push the guess further, it`ll be Islamic immigration. Bloggers, If your response to this is `rubbish - that ill not happen`, I`d love to hear from you what will happen. A huge piece of real estate will just sit empty? One day the Poles may find they can`t go home."
I love this loaded article. We should welcome 'workers' from Eastern Europe. Not people trying to make a better life. Jst more low-waged slaves for the corporate machines to suck the humanity out of. Why don't we just call a spade a spade Brendan.
People may like to know that Brendan Barber and the TUC support the Welfare Reform Bill which will see disabled people lose benefits, forced into unsuitable work and possibly foced to undergo medical treament. With friends like that who needs enemies! what on earth is happening to the left, do they a have a deathwish?
what a collection of pig ignorant nonsense � my favourite so far is Persians line# because even Poland is nice compared to most places out there#. I mean FFS � have you been to eastern Europe? It is a dam site nicer and more civilized than this country, they are simply poorer than the UK. No doubt you sit in front of your computer thinking that you are some kind of munificent citizen of the world when in fact you know nothing. I never thought that I would say this but the man from the TUC is spot on. A great article.
Bravo to Brendan Barber. I agree with every last word of this article, but most especially the first sentence. Those posters who rail against this article nearly all neglect to address the most basic point in the whole article, which is that when Bulgaria and Romania join the EU, they will have rights of movement and to be self-employed - so any barrier against employment is likely to be illusory. Would those posters rather that Bulgarians and Romanians should be made vulnerable victims of unscrupulous employers? Or would they prefer for Britain to withdraw from the EU? Or alternatively, would they prefer to make a virtue out of necessity, just as Brendan Barber recommends, and welcome these workers and the contribution that they can make to British society?
"bobdoney wrote-
""I'm not entirely clear why the people of Britain (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, still, just) shouldn't have a say in whom they share their homeland with.""
OK, so let's find all those who are descended from Huguenots (lots of French sounding names, lots in Essex), those Jews who fled Russia and other countries at the turn of the 19th/20th century and came to Britain, those Jews and Poles who arrived here after the second world war, not to mention Pakistanis, Indians, Jamaicans and other Carribean peoples who came to Britain after the second world war. And say what to them? ""Sorry chaps, no can do. You'll have to go home"". ERrr..what?
Read Rober Winder's ""Bloody Foreigners"". A great argument against the positing of the mythical ""British people"". You'd have to go back to before the Romans really. And THAT is what its about for you, and others, I suspect - you just don't want to share your country with 'other' people - not sure if there are people you would like to share it with, it'd be interesting to know."
"Hand in the bush I think you are mistaking what I am trying to say. Among European whites, us Brits are of course definitely among the worst behaved and educated. However, we do live in quite a `nice` country, for want of a better expression.
I`ve been to some ex-Communist countries but I haven`t been to Poland, so as regards some things, I`m extrapolating from what I`ve seen elsewhere or guessing or depending on things I`ve read. These countries aren`t `nice` overall although they have `nice` features.
There is obviously enough wrong with Poland to drive huge amounts of its citizens out. However, large chunks of the Third World are a damn site worse. I don`t think the Poles are going to go home, and I think something awful may step into the vacuum.
As mentioned, I`d be interested in hearing what people think Poland`s future is, divested of a huge chunk of its young people. And what, if anything, will move in there."
"For all those, like Barber, who insist that continual immigration has only upsides, you might want to consider your stance next time you're getting knarked off in a traffic jam, on a crowded train, in any queue, aghast at the latest property prices, etc....
Britain has roughly equivalent (slightly less, actually) landspace to New Zealand. New Zealand's population is, last time I looked, around 4 million. The UK's is 60 million, and rising. With the majority of our road transport infrastructure built for horse and cart, and our rail system still a bad joke, it is utterly absurd to suggest that the UK can absorb ever greater numbers. The fact is, it can't deal with the numbers it has now.
I've nothing against European intergration at all, quite the contrary. But I do think that accession countries need time and money allocated to catch up economically before free movement is permitted.
As for quoting the Irish experience, has Barber actually been there? Their countryside is now a disaster, largely caused when Ireland loosened its already lax planning laws to cope with ever-greater numbers. What a mess.
Waltz is absolutely right - why should our total existence be reduced solely to economics?
Just so the UK can remain the US's big buddy in the G8?"
Persian my apologies for the slightly aggressive tone of my posting � yours happened to be the last in a long line of comments that annoyed me. The simple point is you have to get your head around is that the majority of people who come to work in this country does so because they are skint. Not because they want to indulge themselves in British culture and food. Give the Polish economy 10 years of steady growth and you wont see a Pawel or an Eva in London for lover not money. Second point: brain drain is an issue, but much for third world countries than our European neighbours. People don�t tend to return to places like Sudan and Sierra Leone after making it to the UK but those coming from Europe tend to only settle for a 2 or three years, only with a few more skills and better English than before. Thirdly: I love it when subject like this come up on CiF � usually I am referred to as Tory, a NeoCon, a Blarite or a right wing nut job when it comes to topics that are 1000s of miles away, such as Lebanon and Israel, yet when things come closer to home and on a subject which will have a tangible impact on people�s life the guardianiestas suddenly find an affinity with Moseley. BobDoney, Saneperson, thisandthat. Why don�t you just come out and say that you don�t like all these dirty foreigners in your country?
"I concur with Gombrowicz, handinthebush and antifrank. The insularity of most of the commenters here is alarming. Brits often joke about Americans being ignorant about the rest of the world, but Brits seem to be just as poorly informed about the rest of Europe. I'll generously assume that there are no racists here - just poorly informed individuals whose stereotypes about other countries have not been adjusted since the end of the Cold War.
Minesaguiness -your first couple of points are fair, but your third point needs a little more thought. ""Presumably the social welfare payments in Britain will be more attractive than the equivalent in their home countries, which would be a reason to stay"". Let me help you reason through this: a) the attractiveness of living somewhere depends not just on potential income but also on potential costs. b) these are people who probably had jobs in their home countries and who came to the UK to work. c) after a period of employment in UK these workers will have superior skills (speaking English) and, in some cases, more experience than their compatriots back home. So, let me now ask: if they can no longer find work in the UK, why on earth would they stay there barely subsisting on benefits when they can go home, be with their families and friends, and enjoy a reasonable standard of living by working??? The whole point of going to the UK was to save money and gain experience so being unemployed on benefits will hold absolutely zero attraction.
Lacanian - those ""low wage slaves"" you refer to are actually making informed choices to move to the UK, Ireland and other Western European countries because the wages and job opportunities there are, in most cases, significantly better than in their home countries. If they ever become disatisfied with their salaries and working conditions in the UK, then you can be sure that they will either move to a country where the opportunities are better or return to their home countries.
""At a guess, it`ll be Third World immigration to Poland, because even Poland is nice compared to most places out there. To push the guess further, it`ll be Islamic immigration."" Persian, yes it is just a guess and (like many a wild guess) completely wrong. In fact, so utterly ridiculous I can only assume you were joking (Islamic immigration to ultra-catholic Poland???). Poland is already importing workers (and has been for a few years now) from Ukraine, a poorer country just over the border with very strong historical links."
"Who could have any objection to foreign workers coming to the UK to do work that needs to be done and that would otherwise not get done?
I'd also be interested to know how those foreign workers how they feel about their taxes subsidising those UK citizens who feel the work they've come to the UK to do is beneath them or too low paid to consider taking on themselves."
"Many posters here have considered the question ""what is so bad about Poland (or other country) to make them migrate here."" As someone who as lived in Central Europe (Lithuania) for six years and travelled widely to Poland and Russia, I could say that Poland/Lithuania are very nice, indeed extremely nice, places to live in if you have enough money to afford a nice flat orhouse, finance your own or your children's education and generally be able to plan financially for the future. The scenery and cuilture (both high and low) is good, the food (at home) is also superb and mostly what we term organic. People are very concerned with being cultured and value education, not like the dumbed down culture and its glorification that we see in the UK.
The problem is that most people do not have enough money to plan for their financial future, do not have enough to get on the property ladder, and do hot have enough to finance their own, or their children's, education. That is the only reason that Poles and Lithuanians are leaving: money. It may be dressed up as ""increasind my job prospects or finding freedom to realise myself,"" but the vast majority, especially those doing unskilled and semi-skilled jobs in the UK (for which they are vastly over-qualified) are here purely for the money. If they stay, it will be for the money, not British food, culture, people, scenery etc."
"the thing is, once these countries are ""in"" you can't refer to them as immigrants any longer!
they're just exercising rights that all the nations agreed to in Maastricht"
I concur with Richardlith. In terms of "quality of life" issues (culture, cuisine, the natural and built environment, health care, education, transport....) I'd say that Central Europe is, on balance, a little ahead of the UK. Most Central Europeans would see the difference as being larger (ie strongly favouring their home countries). The major difference is in the levels of salaries and costs. Most things are signficantly more expensive in the UK, but salaries are high enough to more than make up the difference. In other words someone living in the UK on an average salary will have a significantly higher standard of living than someone living in Central Europe on an average salary. Even so, very few Czechs and Hungarians have emigrated to the UK. The reasons (I believe) that young Poles and Lithuanians have moved to the UK in such large numbers are high levels of unemployment in their home countries (even many graduates find it difficult to get anything but a low paid job) and the unaffordability of housing (not just because of relatively high property prices but also because mortgages are so expensive and difficult to obtain). So, Poles and Lithuanians come to the UK because, even taking a job that it low paid by UK standards, they will be able to save enough money to get themselves on the housing ladder when they return home.
"""Despite the supposed waves of Polish plumbers, there are still substantial shortages of such skills in the construction industry.""
Crazy isn't it? No matter how many carpenters and builders we encourage to settle here there's never quite enough to meet the needs of our booming construction industry. How can this be so? I'll wager that even the sharpest economist minds are stumped as to this little conundrum."
Nope, it is pretty simple really� we are at the tail end of a ten-year economic boom coupled with a long-term commitment to moving people into higher, rather than further education means that our skills base has been eroded. Also at the same time the usual source of this kind of labour, Ireland, has experienced a similar boom and consequently the Irish are choosing to build houses back home. I think there is a lesson there for those who think that we are going to drown under a flood of cheap labour.
Persian - Poland will continue to get its workers from Ukraine, Russia, Georgia, not "something awful" and "Islamic" from the "third world", whatever that means. They will also benefit from waves of poles going back home with money, skills, experience, english ability new ideas and broader horizons. For our part, we get the benefit of their skills and education, without either paying for that or for their pensions. Our main responsibility to our own young people is to educate them to compete for better and better jobs.
JohnHunyadi, appreciate your comments. As with most things in life, it's not all black and white. With regard to educated immigrants, absolutely agree, I was myself a migrant worker who eventually returned home. With regard to unskilled immigrants, I think the situation is different. Take a look at Germany's experience, who have four million Turks, many of who came over in the boom years of the 1960s. Despite the recession of the 1970s, most chose to stay, encouraged, you could say, by the generous 'Sozialnetz' that Germany offers. Whereas the majority of the current immigrants from Poland are well-educated and fit the former category, the perception (and fear amongst some) is that many Romanians and Bulgarians would fit the latter category.
"Why is there an assumption that the people who arrive will leave? Have you no idea just how relatively attractive this country is? I'm an immigrant and the NHS was an enormous factor in my decision to remain here. As a legacy of the empire the UK also offers large, long-exisiting immigrant communities, and a history of tolerance which affords immigrants an immediate sense of kinship within the UK. I can go to Kilburn any night of the week and hear some Irish trad music if I want to - couldn't do the same in NE Finland.
Incidently, using Ireland as a benchmark for UK policy on immigration is breathtakingly inappropriate. Ten years ago, Ireland was a country more comparable to Poland than the UK (highly educated workforce, high unemployment, relatively cheap land and housing). It then experienced an unprecendented economic boom, with a massive return of its own emigrees, families in tow, demanding houses and sevices, which helped to sustain the boom. Immigrants who came to supply to the building and low-end services have also needed services. Lots more people, lots of money, everybody happy? Actually, the pressure on housing in Ireland is unbelieveable, with house prices trebling in under ten years, communtes of 1.5 hours each way to work becoming normal, vast swathes of previously perfect countryside destroyed by ugly identikit estates sprinkled like so many Monopoly houses, a nation that is starting to look like one continuous tarmac roundabout and, oh yes, a WIDENING poverty gap as the rich cream off all the benfits of the population influx and take themselves off to Barbados for a holiday somewhere scenic. If staggered immigration means a slowing of econmic growth is that necessarily a bad thing for Joe Public, rather than shareholders?
By the way, in planning for services in the future, I suspect that Labour are tempering them to to addres the issue of provision of services to a mobile labour force. More mixed (private/public) provision in healthcare, and introducing a contributory system where personal health insurance at different levels of cover according to your ability to pay is the norm will destroy the ""we live here all our lives and pay into the system"" sense of entitlement that it tremendously inconvienient. Handy that, and a lovely ambition for government to introduce such a modern attitude.....It's each man for himself, look after yourself, and if you can't find work to do that, take your family and �$%^ off where you can.
Were Labour left-wing at some point or did I just dream it?"
"""I think there is a lesson there for those who think that we are going to drown under a flood of cheap labour.""
I agree. An entirely fantastic scenario."
easyrecall, there was a survey of immigration the other week, which stated that the average length of stay of european immigrants was 2 years, with very, very few staying longer than 4. it makes sense if you think about it. Plus i just used the example of how the tide of Irish building workers has turned since the economy has improved over there to illustraite my point over people coming to the UK because of poor economy back home rather than an overwhelming desire to live in the UK. I know nothing of Ireland, or its immigration process, and how similar to the uK it is.
"Whereas the majority of the current immigrants from Poland are well-educated and fit the former category, the perception (and fear amongst some) is that many Romanians and Bulgarians would fit the latter category." Now that is a very valid contribution to the debate. Many of the arguments I've read against immigration refer to the Poles, whereas their presence in the UK is not an issue up for debate. The issue at stake is whether to offer Romanians and Bulgarians the same access to the UK as citizens of current EU Member States. I have read various assumptions and extrapolations but nothing informed by actual information (or observation). A tendency I often see is to judge all of the new Member States as one ("Eastern Europe"). Yet a simple glance at the statistics will show that there is a huge difference in relative numbers (in proportion to their populations) who have entered the UK from the different countries. Relatively large numbers of Poles and Lithuanians and yet very small numbers of Czech and Hungarians. Understanding what lies behind this difference is essential in order to judge how many and what type (age, educational qualifications, skills) of Bulgarians and Romanians would emigrate to the UK without restrictions being in place.
"Reading articles like this only helps confirm the belief that capitalism is just too socially destructive for its own good. I wonder what would Aristotle think of the victims of the social system we call capitalism in contrast to his theory concerning how to attain the ""good life""(the theory eudaemonism).
The lot of the average migrant who has to set out for experiences unknown is not much different from that of the slave snatched up somewhere then transported somewhere else just so that others could avoid doing the tasks they want done. The only difference is that wages are thrown in for good measure.
The best way to be migrant is to have lots of c apital or to manage lots of the same--then you can chart your path as you wish. But even so, high-salaried CEOs have to make all kinds of personal and familial adjustments when they move from place to place.
There are those who argue that the history of humanity is one of migration. True, but in the past it took some 50,000 years for people to move just a few thousand kilometres. People stayed where they migrated to for such a long time that they ended up being adapted to their environments. That's why Africans, East Asians, South Asians, Europeans, etc. look different.
It's time that humans came up with a better system."
"If current migration patterns are anything to go by Romanians and Bulgarians will got to Spain and Italy, where there are already communities built up over the last 10 years. However, I believe that more will come to the UK when they two countries joing the EU.
John Hunyadi, the question why fewer Hungarians and Czechs have come to the UK has a lot of potential asnwers. A number of Czechs I know give the same reason. 1) The economy is stronger there than in the rest of Central Europe, with lower unemployment. 2) Czechs have a weaker tradition of emigration that Poland/Lithuania. Others (less charitably) say that Czechs are just too lazy to travel to work (honest)!!
I also must take issue with people who think that Romanians and Bulgarian are less educated than Poles, that there will a flood of unskilled workers. On the contrary, as with Poles, most Bulgarians/Romanians have a level of education far ahead of the average Briton. Most Poles, Romanians etc are shocked at how poorly-educated British graduates are."
"handinthe bush - sorry, I didn't make it clear I was referring to Brendan Barber's statement re. Ireland, not your own He said;
we should copy the Irish. Faced with a proportionately far larger influx of migrant workers, the Irish trade union movement has negotiated a new social partnership with the government and employers called Agenda 2016. It welcomes immigration, but insists on stronger legal protection and tougher enforcement of those laws.
What they are doing is wise, and at a push, it's the least the UK should be doing. I'm rebutting the assumption (though I am totally open to persuasion) that mass, unmanaged immigration should be embraced as something good for the country. It just strikes me as good for business. I get frustrated at the lack of genuine informed debate on the environmental and social consequences, and working in healthcare I get first hand negative reports. I read people writing about negative effects on the labour market, and having seen the consequence of a sudden influx of people into Ireland on the environment (though as I point out, many of them are returned Irish), it starts to look foolish of government not to at least explain their position clearly.
Regarding the survey you mention, I can't find anything that immediately proposes itself as that survey on the web, I was interested to see it. I'm not sure that it really matters whether people intend to stay or not - if half a million people suddenly arrive that's half a million people for the health service to provide for. In fact, if most of them leave overnight and are NOT replaced by their younger siblings, that would still create an allmighty mess. Common sense would indicate that those immigrants arriving from countries which are considerably poorer will stay in proportionately larger numbers than, for example, French or Swedish immigrants."
Great! The middle class couldn't figure out how to pass on the necessary skills for a whole generation of Brits. So what do you do when you need someone who can read or write ? That's it - Invite someone else from 3000 miles away who can. F****ing A policy , well done.
my apologies easyrecall, i thought it was an official government survey, and it turns about to be a YouGov one instead...here is a link anyway http://business.guardian.co.uk/economicdispatch/story/0,,1865430,00.html
Why do people take the fact that we have not done a good job with educating our young people for the future and draw the conclusion that welcoming foreign workers is a bad thing. Yes we need to educate our young � preferably to do higher level jobs than the ones taken by large numbers of polish when they get off the bus. But there is also the demographic question. We are a rapidly ageing society, we need more young workers to sustain our economy AND society, we need taxpayers to pay for all those pensions, as well the education of future generations. And this pressure on social services line really gets to me too. They pay taxes like the rest of us � in fact they contribute more on average than british born workers, as their education was paid for by another country. Never mind the fact that the NHS wouldn�t function without immigrant workers. And housing/environmental problems? Most of the rural areas in Ireland that I saw recently were defaced by second homes. Probably not owned by your average polish immigrant.
I can see it now. The BNP will have a field day. TUC Boss says "Let 'em all come
"Richard Ilith, I think you're right about Romanians and Bulgarians. My sister-in-law is Bulgarian, and from my brother's recollections of visits to Bulgaria, there is a strong emphasis on getting educated, as there is here in Poland. The Romanians I've met have also had a similar attitude. In general it is one of the few positive ""achievements"" of communism to make people value education (although whether this was intentional or a by-product I'm not sure)
On another point, Czech Rep and Hungary are smaller countries with stronger economies than Poland, perhaps in part due to traditional links with Germany and Austria respectively - I know some Czechs I have met say theat they would prefer to work in Germany, simply because it's closer to home."
"Rowthorn - Yep, successive governments have failed the people of this country in terms of education. I still can't believe this Labour government spent this people of this country's money on blowing Iraqi's to pieces. I suspect spending money on vocational academies for plummers, plasters etc. would have been of slightly more benefit to the people of this country.
It really isn't our government's job to 'liberate' other countries, but yes education should always be a top priority."
Seeing that over several decades Britain has swallowed the camel of non-white immigration which has totally altered much of the country. I can't see why it is now straining at the gnat of allowing in some more people who are at least white Europeans.
"Gombrowicz: ""OK, so let's find all those who are descended from Huguenots (lots of French sounding names, lots in Essex), those Jews who fled Russia and other countries at the turn of the 19th/20th century and came to Britain, those Jews and Poles who arrived here after the second world war, not to mention Pakistanis, Indians, Jamaicans and other Carribean peoples who came to Britain after the second world war. And say what to them? ""Sorry chaps, no can do. You'll have to go home"". ERrr..what?""
Ooer, Mr G, no need to go off the deep end. I have absolutely no problem with living in a multi-racial or even multi-cultural (in its old non-inflammatory meaning) society. But to use my old mentor Enoch Powell's phrase (only joking!), it is now a question of numbers. In the good old days it was a major undertaking for an individual, let alone a family, to uproot from one country to another. These days Mr Stelios will whip you from one side of Europe to the other in half an hour for 40p. Surely you can see that this changes the rules somewhat.
And frankly, if we are to remain a cohesive, tolerant (hah!!!) society we need a bit more planning and forethought on these difficult issues. To estimate a few thousand and get a million is forgiveable once, but is likely to try the communal patience if repeated too many times.
""Read Rober Winder's ""Bloody Foreigners"". A great argument against the positing of the mythical ""British people"". You'd have to go back to before the Romans really. And THAT is what its about for you, and others, I suspect - you just don't want to share your country with 'other' people - not sure if there are people you would like to share it with, it'd be interesting to know.""
My definition of the ""British people"" is: ""the people who live in Britain, especially if they can run 100 metres in less than 10 seconds"".
My ancestors (some of them) of course go back before the Romans, as you will instantly recognise that the name DONEY is Cornish. Unfortunately some filthy foreign Germanic blood must have crept in somewhere, as there is quite a lot of unseemly blondness in the family.
However, under your strictures I have tonight cancelled my direct debit in favour of the BNP. I hope this helps."
"""Never mind the fact that the NHS wouldn�t function without immigrant workers.""
Why is it that this circumstance, which has been true for decades, is always trotted out as an argument for immigration rather than as a shameful indictment of successive British governments which have not addressed the question of how to staff this basic national institution with British citizens?"
"handinthebush: ""BobDoney, Saneperson, thisandthat. Why don?t you just come out and say that you don?t like all these dirty foreigners in your country?""
Thank you for your contribution. Please see posting above in response to an earlier over-excited poster."
"bobdoney,
amusing post. still, you are seeing this as an issue of Britain, while I am seeing it as an issue of Europe. Maybe that's because I'm a European (despite being half English!). Don't see what the airlines have got to do with it. Sure, they're there to exploit all the opportunities they can, supported by governments, but even if they weren't, people would still cross the continent in their buses, as many still do.
BTW I recommend taking a bus from London to Warsaw/Prague/Bratislava or wherever in C.Europe at least once in your life. It's a mind-opening experience."
"When it comes to criticising capitalists who won't pay higher salaries and higher taxes CIF posters are at the head of the line. Oh why can't they be more generous with their money, oh why are they so mean?
Oddly, their socialist ideals go out the window if helping poor Bulgarian or Romanian might mean a cut in their own wages. Amazing, how things change when its your own money."
well bob - congratulations for dropping your facile arguements on the impact of miggrant workers on wages in this country......maybe you can be a bit more considered about the rest of your views and you might start to sound human.
"""I`d be interested in hearing what people think Poland`s future is, divested of a huge chunk of its young people. And what, if anything, will move in there"".
With the young people all buggering off to Britain, and elsewhere, then the future of Poland is..
Mohair Berets. # Term used to describe the legions of old ladies who wear... Mohair berets (very accurate) > See link for depiction.
http://www.moheroweberety.net/go/pl/open/tajemnice/on/tajemnica/id/12
They listen to Radio Maryja, the ultra right wing Catholic radio station. Glare at people and..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Maryja
...believe politics in Poland is a Jewish conspiracy...
Sound familiar all you tin-foil-hats 9/11 conspiracists?"
"There was piece on the radio from the World Service this morning stating that 2,000 East Europeans a day were arriving at London Victoria coach station. This was no doubt a guess but if iut is anywhre near accurate that means 700,000 a year by my mathematics.
When these kind of numbers were mentioned in the press two years ago ignorant prats cried 'Rubbish, hype, exaggeration, scaremongering'. But what they were saying then was if anything more of an UNDERestimation than an overestimation. The report stated that there were many of these immigrants suffering on ours steps without accommodation, food and jobs because the resources are being stretched to breaking point.
The bleeding hearts may get some kick out of helping these people and many will probably just shrug their shoulders and blame everybody else but themselves for it, as their view just has to be right hasn't it? No matter how many of them, let alone those left behind in East Europe.
All the time we see mounting evidence that mass immigration has been a curse. It is seen in dwindling limited water supply, shortages of energy, full prisons, shortage of housing, lack of space in schools and hospitals, ethnic tensions, enhanced terrorist threats and massive congestion problems on the roads, the London Underground and even railways.
We have people saying we need more immigrants to pay for pensioners. But none of them mention that the current pension's crisis has been exacerbated by the influx of immigrants 40 to 50 years ago, for the most part encouraged by the Tory party.
Look where today's mass immigration is now coming from, Poland.
People ignore the fact that Poland itself is an ageing population just as we are. So what is the argument that defends us taking in all the young fit workers from Poland and leaving the poor, elderly and sick to look after themselves over there? It has been said that 16% of anaesthetists from Poland (and about 10% doctors and nurses) have left their country to seek work in the EU - mainly in the UK while countries, such as France and Germany have either more sense or are as allegedly racist as the anti-mass immigrationists here.
So how can an old Polish person get a decent plumber or adequate healthcare when they are coming here in such high numbers?
And what do you say to the poor, sick, crippled people living in villages in Africa when their doctors have left to come over here for a better life?
It is the 'I'm alright Jack' middle class of this country who want immigration because it makes the goods and services (restaurants, hotels) they get cheaper and their house value go higher, even if immigration means that local workers can't get reasonably paid jobs.
It is common knowledge that mass immigration has pushed down once well-paid jobs to the minimum wage. And it is the people on low incomes who are suffering most.
It is absolute nonsense to say that immigrants are needed to do the jobs that the lazy British will not do. It is just the reverse. The indigenous British are becoming lazy and refusing to do low paid jobs BECAUSE there has been so much immigration.
Were it left to market forces, those low paid jobs that immigrants do, would be filled by the local force and greedy bosses would HAVE to put wages up.
It is ignorantly stated that these Polish immigrants will go back home in a few years, but this has never happened to most immigrants before has it? What is far more likely is that these workers will tell all their friends in Poland that the streets of London are paved with gold and many, many more will flock here. They will settle down (well would you give up a good paid job for a much lower one in Poland) bringing their wives and kids with them.
There are allegedly 450,000 East Europeans a year cominmg here, but it does not include those self-employed or those not registering anywhere, including those on the black market earning less than the minimum wage.
It has been stated that over 90% of Polish immigrants are in work. I wonder how many more British people would be in work if they were not entitled to any state benefits a sthe Poles are not for the first year. Certainly a heck of a lot more than there are now."
"Good article, BB!
About time some of the recent and apparent UK hysteria is exposed as a double-standard, typically UK reaction to EU enlargement. Is this country really part of the Union, or not?
Writing from Sofia, in Bulgaria, mixing with intelligent people, old and young, I find no great enthusiasm among them for rushing off to the UK. Those who wanted to emigrate (principally to US) have long gone. And many are returning, disillusioned with the lack of life quality in the west, generally, preferring now to do something active and positive for their country from the inside.
Plus: why is there a continuing level of UK unemployment, however low (in EU terms)? Who will fill these jobs - from trashman to executive director of a new, private business?
Wake up, UK, to reality! Why did I leave that country? Because of the hypocritical, superior, old-fashioned notion of ""British (usually English) is best"", and Johnny Foreigner is inevitably a criminal."
"Metatarsal: Thanks for that I couldn't have put it better. If you did create more vocational courses then you would probably have fewer wider social problems because young people would have role models , adults to listen and give advice, as well as enjoying time usefully spent. Agreed on that in the 70's didn't we ?
Off to the builders merchant to fight my way through loads of white vans with European plates.
Gnash."
"Yes,but more Polish workers means more social problems,more labour disputes,more of a revived role for the TUC and potentially more scope for Brendan Barber to increase his power.
Ahhh,but it can't be that, can it? Otherwise,he would tell us."
"handinthebush: ""well bob - congratulations for dropping your facile arguements on the impact of miggrant workers on wages in this country......maybe you can be a bit more considered about the rest of your views and you might start to sound human.""
Interesting that the laws of supply and demand are now considered facile. When did this happen? I must have missed it. Sorry if using well-tested economic principles sounds inhuman. Would some smileys help?"
"tomaszek - you might be being ever so slightly stereotypical there old boy, but an accurate picture of an unnaceptably large number, true..
sandywinder - you're asking the wrong questions and reaching the wrong conclusions. Only a small number of Poles/other Central-Eastern Europeans really want to stay in the UK. And they are generally more motivated to work than indigenous Brits, having the experience of lack of work, greater hardship, and so on."
"Gombrowicz wrote; Only a small number of Poles/other Central-Eastern Europeans really want to stay in the UK. And they are generally more motivated to work than indigenous Brits, having the experience of lack of work, greater hardship, and so on.
Again, ....why will only a small number stay here? who really know? No one, but experience indicates that this is not the case and it is counter-intuiative to me. Nobody is proposing anything rational to explain why people coming from poorer countries with less benefits, who find a country attractive enough to emigrate to in the short-term, would not choose to stay long-term. To me, family ties would seem the strongest reason not to stay, but firstly, people can bring their immediate family and secondly, travel is far faster and more affordable than before - people don't have to abandon all their family forever when they move abroad. That is why there is a whole new wing in the major central bus station in Dublin running buses to Poland. And more luck to them.
Gombrowicz, I'd like to point out that I find your suggestion that Eastern European people are more motivated to work that British people just as offensive as BNP suggestions that immigrants are scroungers. This sort of comment surfaces here all the time and I'm disgusted that they go unchecked. I'm an immigrant and I work as hard here as I did back home (no more no less) and as far as I can see, there's no reason to believe that there are swathes of the UK population avoiding work any more so than in other countries with attractive social benefits. Those in employment here work the longest hours in Europe.
I think it is revolting to see this ""if you protest or question mass immigration you are a racist"" timbre that evolves in these threads. I haven't even got that strong an opinion on the issue but refuse to be bullied by that accusation."
"easyrecall,
I am only relating the very many converstations I've had with people on the subject, both employers in companies and private people employing people to work for them. It is not my fantasy or invention, and the thought that I have anything to do with attitudes akin to the BNP is offensive to me personally. I am half English - not that this makes any difference - but I think what you're looking at is generations of people in the UK who are brought up on social welfare, and who transfer that to the next generation. I have seen that in the suburban areas of Reading where I grew up and lived most of my life. Now having lived in Poland and being married to a Pole, I come into contact with a lot of Polish people, many of whom have come to the UK recently. I see these people getting up at 4-5am, working 12 hours or more, going home and getting up without complaints. I go to work at 6.30 in the morning and most of the people I see around are Poles or other immigrants (I can spot them!).
Please separate the idea of inherent racism from what people have had ingrained in them. It is a sad truth that while a young English person might do a job and think ""sod this I'd be better on the dole"" This thought wouldn't come into a Pole's mind, living in the UK. Poles have grown up to expect nothing from their government expect to be thieves, and take away their tax to make themselves rich."
"Gombrowicz, thanks for taking the time to respond, I genuinely do want to get an idea of why there is a ""feckless Brits/hard working Eastern-European"" idea. I think it has arisen from flawed ""people are too lazy to take jobs"" thinking ie generations of families on welfare leads to a culture of dependency. I imagine there are relatively few families who don't aspire to obtain a wealthier lifestyle. I also think that a lot of the ""laziness"" people perceive is misguided. It can take a person a long time to obtain benefits and they have to judge very carefully if they will or will not be better off in the long term (particularly if they have a young family) if they choose to take low-paid work. Where work offered is short-term or seasonal, its a no-brainer. I'm not excusing that (never been on benefits myself)but it is understandable.
I accept that Eastern Europeans don't have the option of relying on the state to the same extent, but I wouldn't choose the word ""motivated"" to describe that rationale. It is purely semantic I know, but that has a positive sound to it when the situation you describe is really a very unpleasant one - people are desperate enough to travel thousands of miles to get up at 5am to work in the service industry for a salary the indiginous consider a pittance. And I understand that some people are also getting up at 5am to take their shift as a surgeon or etc., but to be honest, there is nothing celebratory about masses of people doing crap jobs here because they get paid more than they would do at home, and there is nothing necessarily laudable in that individual's character just because they choose to do so. It really is bad for everyone if increased cheap labour forces salaries down - well, everyone except the businesses who make a fat profit and the immigrants familes' back home who get a few bob from the immigrant who works their a�%^ off."
"easyrecall/Gombrowicz, the image of Polish immigrants being much better and highly motivated workers than the average UK citizen is popular and highly justified based on what their employers say.
However this is hardly surprising is it? I'm sure if you look through the population of Poland you'll find a similar mix of people as in the UK. Some lazy, some who actively look to improve their situation, become educated and look for work. It's not difficult to see that the type of person prepared to dislocate themselves from their home and go looking for work are far more likely to be the latter type. Any immigrant population anywhere is normally more motivated and driven than the population they enter because it's a self selecting group."
"Gumbo - don't the BNP etc take the opposite tack about self-selcetion i.e. hard-working, family orientated, honest people get on their bike and make it work back home, while the lazy scroungers gravitate to where the grass is greener? If you're going to work as a chambermaid or street sweeper you have no incentive to remain where the wages are low....unless? you have strong family ties? A sense of pride in your country etc. etc. Do you see what I mean about so many propositions having a similar flip side to the coin? I'm not attacking you're position by any menas it just completely unconvincing.
You say ""the image of Polish immigrants being much better and highly motivated workers than the average UK citizen is popular and highly justified based on what their employers say.""
Well, employers are prone to enjoy employing people from nations with lower expectations of salaries and benefits than indiginous workers. Any Polish workers wondering where final salary pensions are gone, or investigating if any of their colleagues have them? I hope they are, and I hope the unions remind them to, but i doubt if its happening to the same extent that it does with UK workers.
Again, I think you're racist to promulgate this idea that Polish immigrants are better workers than the average UK citizen, or at least naive if you take industry's word for it. a defensiveness that says ""you're lucky they're here"" or"
"easyrecall, the BNP take the opposite view simply because they like to be arses. Serious studies (ie not made up BNP literature) generally show immigrant populations are highly concerned with education, bettering themselves and improving life for them and mostly their children. Adjusted for income it's the children of recent immigrants who do best in school for example.
Secondly how do you think it's racist to believe that a self selecting group (selecting by motivation) from population A is more motivated than the average member of population B? That's simply selection and says nothing about my opinions of the character of either group in general. The base assumption is equality - the characteristic of being motivated distinguishes one group from the other by definition. Motivated British people are similarly more motivated than the average Pole."
"When making claims that Polsih workers are somehow better motivated that British ones we are often not comparing like with like. Gumbo made the point that if you are willing to travel thousands of miles to work you are better motivated than the locals. However, we should be comparing the Poles to British workers who have also emigrated to work, wether in the oilfields of the Gulf, Wall Street or indeed anyway worldwide. Most British emigrants are young and well-educated, willing to work hard to make money . Hey, just like the Poles in the UK.
A second point. Why are Poles so willing to work long hours in the UK? One reason could be that so many of them are single, or without their families. While they have strong family ties at home, in the UK they do not have to take their share of childcare, leave work early (or strictly on time) to collect thier children from school. They can work weekends becuase the don't have to do faimily things with the childrem or visit their grandparents. Of couse, they suffer from leaving their family behind, but I think it does explain why emigratns are willin to work overtime (apart from the money of course.) A Lithuanian first told me this theory, after all he English colleagues didn't want to do overtime because it would eat into family life."
"easyrecall,
I really don't see what you're driving at. To me it's obvious; it's not about the inherent worth or value of people - that's ridiculous. You need to be closer to the situation to get a feel for it."
"Gombrowicz - ""closer to the situation""?? I'm an immigrant (Irish) in Britain, and I work alongside immigrants from Eastern Europe (and central Europe and Scandanavia). I am not an employer however, and do not benefit from the improved labour market with reduced costs.
As referred to in one of my previous posts, the word ""motivated"" is used here as if it is inherrently positive. If people get up at 5am to work a 12 hour shift charring in a hotel for less money than a Brit would do it for, they sure are motivated? Motivated by their own relative poverty, and consequently offering the employer a cheap labour source.
You said that ""the image of Polish immigrants being much better and highly motivated workers than the average UK citizen is popular and highly justified based on what their employers say.""
Well again, ""highly justified"" - where? how? and I'm surprised you cannot see how disparaging of UK people that comment is(Polish immigrants being ""much better"" workers than UK workers. It is obviously relative to what employers stand to gain (and they love immigrant workers).
But fine, if we are in agreement (as i think we are) that ""it's not about the inherent worth or value of people"" its about their economic and social value. Which comes right back to the start of the discussion - should the UK welcome workers from Bulgaria and Romania but ensure better rights for all (as proposed by Brendan Barber) or not, as many posters say it shouldn't. I got very little information from the debate, other than the fact that some people, balking at the idea that some restrictions on immigration would introduced, have decided that British people are lazy and Eastern Europeans are fantastically hard working and yet at some, undetermined point will suddenly, overnight mostly decide to go home, thereby making the strain on public services, housing and the environment totally cool."
"easyrecall-
it was not me who said ""the image of Polish immigrants being much better and highly motivated workers than the average UK citizen is popular and highly justified based on what their employers say."" that was Gumbo, similar name, granted.
It's not about who is a better worker. Poles work as hard as they do in many cases because they fear the consequences if they don't. They can be exploited by bosses who take advantage of their lack of knowledge of the UK, language, etc. But it would be wrong for me to say that the image of the hard-working Pole has become very prevalent where I live - Reading - and it hasn't been me cheerleading it by any means! I think there are historical reasons which are not so obvious, but don't link this with some kind of racism or prejudice, because it's far from it. I agree that Central Eastern European people are thought of as economic resources by the boss class, but that is obvious, we all are in the post-ideological supercapitalist age. It's just that Poles who have sat around with no jobs for years, or have watched their parents sit around with no jobs for years, have a bit more to prove to the world. Or so they feel. Is that OK?"
"easyrecall, I can't explain this any more:
""I'm surprised you cannot see how disparaging of UK people that comment is(Polish immigrants being ""much better"" workers than UK workers.)""
I'm not being disparaging about UK workers, and nor am I saying Polish people are unusually hard working. It's simply the effect of selection on a group. As RichardIlith said, British people who have emigrated to work are probably ""much better"" than the average Polish worker."
"Gombrowicz sorry, I did get the names mixed up.
Well, fair enough, it's your opinion that Poles ""have a bit more to prove"". I just don't believe that any more than I would a BNP types assertion that the opposite is true.
Gumbo
And I can't explain this any more; Poverty drives people to do things abroad they wouldn't do at home. This is a good thing for employers. This is not a good thing for anyone else. I've been there mate."
"""Poverty drives people to do things abroad they wouldn't do at home. This is a good thing for employers. This is not a good thing for anyone else.""
This is indeed true. Poverty is not a good thing. However the one thing that won't solve the problem of poverty is preventing people from doing something about it - ie working. The very fact that it's such a popular option shows how much of a good thing it is for immigrants who want to work. That it increases the size of the economy is also good for everyone else. The only people who won't benefit are those with no skills. However as I've said upthread, this is a very good reason to give people the opportunity to acquire skills."
"""Poverty is not a good thing. However the one thing that won't solve the problem of poverty is preventing people from doing something about it - ie working. The very fact that it's such a popular option shows how much of a good thing it is for immigrants who want to work. That it increases the size of the economy is also good for everyone else. The only people who won't benefit are those with no skills. However as I've said upthread, this is a very good reason to give people the opportunity to acquire skills.""
Well, ""Should the UK welcome workers from Bulgaria and Romania but ensure better rights for all"" (as proposed by Brendan Barber)? I take your point that it probably would be a very good thing for immigrants, but I'm wondering whether it is a good thing for the people of the UK, not just econmically, but socially and environmentally too. I don't think that increasing the size of the economy is necessarily a good thing (diminishing the poverty gap would better) and it would also be a once-off, so why do it? for whose benefit? Business wants it, they get inproved profit margins, and probably in the longer term too as wages stagnate or are driven down in real terms."
Guardian is trying to punt a halfhearted spin here with this and the moaning East European woman they dredged up. How much did Labour central office beg? Did they cry? Give us the dirt.
It will be interesting to see how people eventually vote. At the very least this highlights as massive polarising difference in how people think.
"You tell a story isn't politically important when it revolves around a ""gaffe""
The press love focusing on a good gaffe, making a politician squirm makes for easy copy, it's just a shame it doesn't do much to help the nation decide who to vote for"
Quite clearly, he shouldn't have said "bigotted"; he should have said "thick".
A lot of people here seem to think bigotry against immigrants isn't a big deal. My partner is an immigrant, and we get eggs and rubbish thrown at our front windows and insults in the street, especially when the press stirs hatred up. My partner has been in the UK for 20 years and has never claimed any benefits at all. She has worked very hard and probably already paid more tax here than that woman has in her entire life.
"Has it not occurred to you that the type of people he has upset and angered and totally alienated, are not really the type of people that spend their days twittering.
He has cut off his honest, decent, working class support.
The fact that the middle class dosh bags on 'twatter' do not think is so bad, is, like he soon will be, totally irrelevant."
"I tittered at 'All these eastern Europeans ? where are they coming from?' Mozambique, presumably.
Brown is not a hypocrite for calling somebody a bigot in private conversation. I wonder how well Duffy would come out if she was on mic at the wrong time on the issue. Brown is a hypocrite for moaning about bigots while his government is pandering to right-wing hysteria over immigration. He has dug his own hole, and fallen right into it. A sorry show - nobody looks good."
"I agree with Beebeta. She may not have used the most appropriate language to express concerns but she certainly was a bigot. She asked a question, she didnt make a statement. I think she came across as a sweet, caring and hard working old lady who was trying to have a sensible conversation with Brown. Perhaps also she was a bit nervous given that she was a) talking to the pm and b) surrounded by press/media .
Brown's crime here is not getting caught but the fact thats how he thinks of her. Shows him as arrogant and out of touch, concerned not about how he can genuinally meet the concerns of an engaged electorate but only how things play in the media. Its style over substance which sums up labours past 3 terms. If they just concentrated on values, ideology and practical policies to meet these then they wouldnt be in such a mess.
This has convinced me once and for all not to vote labour, and i am a card carrying labour member. The sooner we can get rid of the egotistical, career obessed, pocket lining, unintelligent, ignorant and arrogant current crop of labour top flight the better .
Perhaps Gillian Duffy for PM?"
Wasn't there an episode of the west wing where Bartlett intentionally lets slip his real opinion after an interview? Gordon did said what many of us think of the immigration 'debate' in this country. Its a fact that immigrants are good for the economy and the ignoramuses who use terms like "them foreigners" are bigots.
The "bigott" coment makes GB look a bit more human and gives me a laugh. When do single people and ex informal carers get a break in this family obsessed election why should an act of kindness lead to a life of poverty and social excluson?
Mammy what?s a bigot...errrrm he was a successful fine English jockey!!
"Gordon Brown should have said inside the car "" I will prove to that Lady that I will do all I can to keep her believes that she should stay and vote for Labour"" and not to make a slur and calling his long time Labour voter a ""bigot"".
Labour has created a Big Brother society then it backfired to him."
Honestly, can't the man have a private moan about some of the annoying people he's forced to talk to during the course of the election?
"The notion that this is somehow an unbiased approach to public reaction is risible.
To put Adam Gabbatt's ""mixed reaction"" claims to the test I have just popped over to the YouGov site where they have a section devoted to ""what people are talking about right now"". Currently there are over 2000 comments on Gordon Brown, almost 1500 of which have been recently. His negative rating is 1406 which represents a fall of 1109 points in the past day. To put this into context, immediately after the first Leaders' Debate, Nick Clegg went into a massive plus point status of around 650, much of which has since evaporated. Clegg appears currently to be gaining nothing from this issue as he has a 0 change to his score,whilst Cameron on the other hand, although still in negative territory, is rapidly moving towards being viewed in a positive light.."
"Brown is presenting himself as the man with substance over style.
Unfortunately, half the population has just seen that what he says in public ""very nice speaking with you"", is very different from what he thinks and says in private ""bigot"".
He even lied after apologising to her by saying it was a ""mis-understanding""...
what utter crap, he knew exactly what she said.
It's the real Brown coming out now... fake, two-faced, angry and pathetic.
Most of the electorate should be seeing him for what he is now: a squandering, lying, angry, burnt-out bully that has taken the country backwards, morally and economically.
I just pity the party that get in as they'll have to clear up all of his mess and it won't be pretty.
Bye Bye Gordon. Actually I hope that you get elected so that you have to clear up the country that you've ruined."
"However unfortunate Gordon Brown?s misfortune of being overheard maybe for Labour, one could argue that it would never match Margaret Thatcher?s public statements that she regarded Nelson Mandela a terrorist and Pinochet a friend.
Also it is interesting to note that this is what Douglas Hurd wrote in his diary about Thatcher and German unification:
""Usual diatribe against German selfishness, but the hankering to stop unification now comes less often."""
Six munths ago, I coodent even spel bigott, and now I are one!
"She did seem like an everyday, average voter- a bigot. Characterising a whole section of the community, namely people originally from Eastern Europe, as a problem because of their origin? Bigotry.
Imagine if you were regarded as a problem because of what bit of soil you were born over."
During an election campaign in Australia in the late 1980s, the PM Bob Hawke called a similarly cranky citizen "a silly old bugger" - and went on to win the election. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s66600.htm
The woman that made the comment is not a bigot. I'm mixed race, born here, age 50+ & I encounter bigotry everyday. These days I'm mistaken for for an Arabic person. No probs there provided people are polite but unfortunately a lot of eastern Europeans a few years back had racist attitude on London transport & I began to notice them more & more. Believe me Gordon brown don't know anything & if he does he wont admit it for fear of the opposition scoring points & the labour party losing votes. The fact is too many people have been allowed in too quickly, it is not their fault, however the government must surely have known in the beginning that it wouldn't be 16k people (yep I read that in a newspaper) I thought "you can add another zero to that at least!". Now, I welcome everyone (my parents came from overseas) & am not racist, I do know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism, however someone that is white & perhaps middle class in a suit in a car ( a politician?) has no idea what that feels like everyday out in the open when your casually dressed (yep people make visual judgements). Unfortunately, some people are bigoted & racist, I can deal with that but people need to speak up without fear of being called a racist. Speak up everybody but don't be nasty to people just because of their colour or where they came from. If the Gov' thinks that someone saying that too many immigrants have come in is bigoted then they need to wake up & FAST! People come & people go but if your on the ground then you see the effects in different areas. We are all in the same boat so lets row together & do our best. Peace!
"I feel very sorry for Gordon Brown. He is under tremendous pressure in the run up to the election, he takes 1 minute out to let off steam in the privacy of his car and the whole Nation evesdrops on what he says!
Everyone of us has said something in private to let off steam before ...... it just makes him HUMAN not a monster! Leave Gordon alone.
I can't believe the woman has now got a PR agent involved .... does she smell money? Unbelievable!
Go Gordon!"
"Gillian Duffy is undoubtedly a bigot. The way she spoke of 'flocking' Eastern Europeans was typical vocabulary. Living in Paris I am one of a million Brits who live in another EU country- thankfully the French treat me with a lot more deference than my compatriots seem to treat Eastern Europeans.
The risk for Brown is (a) that there appear to be many bigots in the UK; (b) he is seen as hypocritical for having been nice to her in public and then rude about her in private- but if he had said to her face 'you're a bigot' the fallout might have been even greater. In fact, in a polite way he did reprimand her on this comment so other than using stronger vocab in private he wasn't actually that hypocritical.
This was a private conversation and should have been allowed to stay that way- if a rival politician pretends that they don't slag difficult people off once they get back to their car then they are a liar. The situation was totally manipulated by Sky News. What really made me sick was the way that Sky News reporter with the blue tie followed Mrs Duffy around trying to put words in her mouth, trying to make her say that now she would not vote for Brown."
"Listen to the recording http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFl_evwML2M GB DOESN'T say that she's a bigot but that she is a ""sort of bigoted woman"" its just a difference of emphasis but i think its important.
If we're supposed to infer angry control freakery from GB's language in a situation where he thought he was talking in private i think its entirely reasonable to infer a ""sort of bigotry"" from Gillian Duffy's comments in a public forum.
The where are all these eastern europeans coming from statement did make me laugh, perhaps that betrays my arrogance but she came across as just another NIMBY middle englander who's opinions on domestic and foreign policy are for some strange reason supposed to be significant to me.
Finally, i'm a 3rd generation immigrant, I love this country and i'm very lucky to live here, but the UK does NOT have a sparkling record of welcoming immigrants no matter what people may want you to believe, it has a sparkling record of welcoming immigrants for as long as it is deemed to be convenient. Ask the Cossacks, or the poles who thought they would be forcibly repatriated after the war (until the king told churchill he'd abdicate if it happened), or the jews who were expelled by Edward I or the irish immigrants of the 19th century onwards.
I have no issue with controlling immigration in principle, in fact i think its an important thing to do, but lets not flatter ourself that this is a land of rainbows and fairies and warm welcome that have been taken advantage of by people from abroad cos it just ain't so."
"Listen to the recording http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFl_evwML2M GB DOESN'T say that she's a bigot but that she is a ""sort of bigoted woman"" its just a difference of emphasis but i think its important.
If we're supposed to infer angry control freakery from GB's language in a situation where he thought he was talking in private i think its entirely reasonable to infer a ""sort of bigotry"" from Gillian Duffy's comments in a public forum.
The ""where are all these eastern europeans coming from?"" statement did make me laugh, perhaps that betrays my arrogance but she came across as just another NIMBY middle englander who's opinions on domestic and foreign policy are for some strange reason supposed to be significant to me.
Finally, i'm a 3rd generation immigrant, I love this country and i'm very lucky to live here, but the UK does NOT have a sparkling record of welcoming immigrants no matter what people may want you to believe, it has a sparkling record of welcoming immigrants for as long as it is convenient. Ask the Cossacks, or the Poles who thought they would be forcibly repatriated after the war (until the king told churchill he'd abdicate if it happened), or the jews who were expelled by Edward I or the irish immigrants of the 19th century onwards.
I have no issue with controlling immigration in principle, in fact i think its an important thing to do, but lets not flatter ourself that this is a land of rainbows and fairies and warm welcome that have been taken advantage of by people from abroad cos it just ain't so."""
"I think the attack on bogotry is welcome and Gordon should make it central to what he says in the debate tonight.
Vote Labour. Don't let the bigots win."
"Immigration has increased at the behest of the employers and industrialists,
farmers and growers, almost all of them Conservative supporters.
A steady stream of casual workers, easy to sack, non unionised,
low paid, part time, 'on tap and organised by Gang Masters...a very appropriate description.
Profits galore!.......I am and will continue to be a Labour Voter, but I do not approve of the above."
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"Saintsimon:
""if a rival politician pretends that they don't slag difficult people off once they get back to their car then they are a liar.""
Love the smear, hate the smearer (or something like that)"
"It's unfortunate that people don't say what they believe in the moment, but then again one should see the The Ricky Gervais movie: The Invention of Lying: The World's First Lie
It's unfortunate when people think more about their own point of view than an others.
The truth is a moment to moment event that is what it is.
# Gordon Brown is a human like you or I; I believe he means well and I think the media is not helpful in many ways:
It would be nice if he wasn't mortal, but would having a God do it all for us make us any better.
Politics is complicated. Not saying Gordon is corrupt, but old parties may think they can do anything. There must be balance in all things. Power unfortunately can corrupt and absolute power can corrupt absolutely. Let the new comers inject some more honesty and good behavior while you can.
When one who has power: It takes a very spiritual person to not allow the ego to feed arrogance and intolerance. When it doesn't like what others say and do, it's own agenda may not listen to the reason and needs of others.
Everyone has a point of view and hopefully it is from clarity with consciousness and caring intent.
# The Murdoch/Cameron mix I believe may be a very bad move? Do you really believe what's in the Sun newspaper? Worse yet the human made climate change deniers within the party. On the other hand they may be better for business, but maybe more in it for themselves?
If a Conservative, Labour, Liberal Democrat or Green party member has good policies vote for them. We must look closely at the policies and actions of the representative and if the party is being guided in democratic way for the majority.
A leader must (serve and guide the ship from the collective majority's needs, not their wants) without their ego leading to manipulate by clap trap. They must do their best to do what they say, but first they must do it without rhetoric, sound bites, manipulative gestures and movement. Serving for the good of all must come from the heart, soul with a true intend to make a better life for as many as possible.
# I don't have all the answers; I am trying to survive like everyone else.
# The survival of the human race IMHO will depend on: (being in the here and now, seeing what is + Love each other to the best of our ability + Sustainable Energy. + Inhabit the stars.)
Remember no government is perfect for everyone, but those that serve the majority, are balanced and are the fairest are the best.
# Government is complicated. It is rife with special interested groups and big money.
Whomever tries to run the show will have a hard time of it.
Obama tried to help the less fortunate and at the same time having to fix the mess the greedy have made.
He's probably trying too hard compared to many of us? The truth is if he didn't spend and balance we most likely would be hurting much more.
The problem is we are being held hostage by the too big to fail and they
know it. Laws will have to be put in place that were taken away, Like
Glass Steagall Act
The problem is we are dammed if we do and damned if we don't, so we try to communicate, compromise and placate to keep the system going.
Perhaps if we let the too big to fail at least we'd be on a more level play
ground. Legislation is good but not if it brings things to a stand still.
# All the talk about cutting spending may be helpful sometimes, but it may only stagnate the system. All the money spent should be allocated fairly, for the products bought give food to the ones that supply.
# Perhaps the unconscious and lazy should help fix the system. It's up to everyone to contribute to a fair workable system.
The system is built on boom and bust. Greed and fear, but we need balance.
We've known that the Governments were headed for big deficits many years ago. Social Security, National Insurance, NHS etc.
# If we want a workable system then we all need to contribute.
http://www.kobashi.co.uk/environment.shtml"
"Saintsimon
""if a rival politician pretends that they don't slag difficult people off once they get back to their car then they are a liar.""
love the smear, hate the smearer (or something like that)"
"The most widely used and industry accepted means of analysing website popularity in terms of ranking based on internet traffic, is using the website www.alexa.com
It could be viewed as the largest internet based poll, as it simply refers to website hits. Alexa is owned by Amazon and collects ""cookies"" from millions of websurfers from around the world.
It is able to categorise these visitors by country as it recognises the physical location of IP addresses.
In my own business, we have been using Alexa for more than 5 years as a means of judging the internet presence of competitors.
I have just analysed the rankings of the 5 main political parties in the UK and was completely amazed by the results.
Here is the ranking from page 1 for all UK websites http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/GB
To be clear, in the UK, www.google.co.uk ranks as number 1, and www.facebook.com ranks as number 2 etc etc.
The site with the highest combination of visitors and pageviews is ranked #1 in each country.
The following figures are for each of the political parties (as of today) and reflect the ranking, from UK surfers, based on visitors and pageviews over the last 3 months.
1) BNP 761 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bnp.org.uk#
2) Lib Dems 807 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/libdems.org.uk#
3) Conservatves 896 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/conservatives.com#
4) Labour 1066 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/labour.org.uk#
5) UKIP 2956 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ukip.org#
One might have expected the traffic of the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat websites to be broadly similar to each other.
Even the UKIP ranking is not particularly surprising.
However, the ranking of the BNP website as the most highly trafficked UK party political website is just incredible.
None of the pollsters or political journalists in the UK have even started to understand that the BNP is attracting so much interest from British surfers ( in the comfort of their own homes.)
It seems very likely to me that there are large numbers of Conservative voters who are so fed-up with the Labour Party's record of unrestrained immigration and all of its effects on UK society, that they want to hear something much more convincing that the Conservative policy to-date. It is clear from the disproportionate interest in the BNP website that the ""Political correctness"" of the Conservative Party is potentially losing a large number of votes.
David Cameron has a huge opportunity in the next 8 days, unbeknown to the other parties, to try to woo and win back to the Conservative Party, this tacit and flirting interest in the BNP from British web-surfers/voters who would have voted Conservative in the past. This obviously has to be done with great sensitivity so as not to alienate voters in the centre of the political spectrum.
I believe that this will put a clearer marker in the sand for the Conservative Party and will put the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties on the backfoot and may attract 2-3% more support for the Conservative Party."
"The most widely used and industry accepted means of analysing website popularity in terms of ranking based on internet traffic, is using the website www.alexa.com
It could be viewed as the largest internet based poll, as it simply refers to website hits. Alexa is owned by Amazon and collects ""cookies"" from millions of websurfers from around the world.
It is able to categorise these visitors by country as it recognises the physical location of IP addresses.
In my own business, we have been using Alexa for more than 5 years as a means of judging the internet presence of competitors.
I have just analysed the rankings of the 5 main political parties in the UK and was completely amazed by the results.
Here is the ranking from page 1 for all UK websites http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/GB
To be clear, in the UK, www.google.co.uk ranks as number 1, and www.facebook.com ranks as number 2 etc etc.
The site with the highest combination of visitors and pageviews is ranked #1 in each country.
The following figures are for each of the political parties (as of today) and reflect the ranking, from UK surfers, based on visitors and pageviews over the last 3 months.
1) BNP 761 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bnp.org.uk#
2) Lib Dems 807 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/libdems.org.uk#
3) Conservatves 896 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/conservatives.com#
4) Labour 1066 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/labour.org.uk#
5) UKIP 2956 http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ukip.org#
One might have expected the traffic of the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat websites to be broadly similar to each other.
Even the UKIP ranking is not particularly surprising.
However, the ranking of the BNP website as the most highly trafficked UK party political website is just incredible.
None of the pollsters or political journalists in the UK have even started to understand that the BNP is attracting so much interest from British surfers ( in the comfort of their own homes.)
It seems very likely to me that there are large numbers of Conservative voters who are so fed-up with the Labour Party's record of unrestrained immigration and all of its effects on UK society, that they want to hear something much more convincing that the Conservative policy to-date. It is clear from the disproportionate interest in the BNP website that the ""Political correctness"" of the Conservative Party is potentially losing a large number of votes.
David Cameron has a huge opportunity in the next 8 days, unbeknown to the other parties, to try to woo and win back to the Conservative Party, this tacit and flirting interest in the BNP from British web-surfers/voters who would have voted Conservative in the past. This obviously has to be done with great sensitivity so as not to alienate voters in the centre of the political spectrum.
I believe that this will put a clearer marker in the sand for the Conservative Party and will put the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties on the backfoot and may attract 2-3% more support for the Conservative Party."
"Gordon thought she said where are they all fucking from when she actually said 'flocking from'. You can tell he's reacted this way by his body language and how quickly he wants to get away.
That is why he tried to explain that he'd misunderstood what she'd said. Brown may not even have realised his error until hearing the audio on the radio show which makes his reaction very genuine.
The media of course seized on it and have given it the massive 'most significant moment of the campaign' treatment.
It isn't.
Anyone who was waiting for something like this to use as a reason not to vote Labour wasn't going to vote for them anyway.
This doesn't make Cameron any more attractive or electable than he was previously.
Brown is not a saint. He may or may not be judged as a decent prime minister after the dust has settled.
Immigration is an issue. It used to be blacks and asians when I was growing up. Now it's Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians.
People tend to like to be surrounded by people like them. When everyone around them appears to be talking a different language people who haven't travelled much and haven't lived abroad for example do tend to feel threatened and disturbed.
Immigrants always gravitate to the cheapest areas to live which means they initially come into contact with others who are scrambling after the same scraps. People who themselves feel down on their luck or hard done by or who have waited for years to get council accommodation understandably feel irritable when others appear to arrive and get support.
The benefits supposedly ladled out to immigrants however is a media myth that the Tories encourage."
"Gordon thought she said where are they all fucking from when she actually said 'flocking from'. You can tell he's reacted this way by his body language and how quickly he wants to get away.
That is why he tried to explain that he'd misunderstood what she'd said. Brown may not even have realised his error until hearing the audio on the radio show which makes his reaction very genuine.
The media of course seized on it and have given it the massive 'most significant moment of the campaign' treatment.
It isn't.
Anyone who was waiting for something like this to use as a reason not to vote Labour wasn't going to vote for them anyway.
This doesn't make Cameron any more attractive or electable than he was previously.
Brown is not a saint. He may or may not be judged as a decent prime minister after the dust has settled.
Immigration is an issue. It used to be blacks and asians when I was growing up. Now it's Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians.
People tend to like to be surrounded by people like them. When everyone around them appears to be talking a different language people who haven't travelled much and haven't lived abroad for example do tend to feel threatened and disturbed.
Immigrants always gravitate to the cheapest areas to live which means they initially come into contact with others who are scrambling after the same scraps. People who themselves feel down on their luck or hard done by or who have waited for years to get council accommodation understandably feel irritable when others appear to arrive and get support.
The benefits supposedly ladled out to immigrants however is a media myth that the Tories encourage."
"It's a non-story hyped up by a clearly bored media. They were practically hanging out of the woman trying to get her to react!
And why must every minor incident causing a media scandal be called 'whatever-gate'? Makes me cringe! Lazy, lazy journalism."
Colmmac, it all started with the Watergategate.
Adam, you could also look at the recommends on Guardian comments threads. My rough impression confirms what you say, that Brown is not doing very badly out of this.
The whole 'bigot' saga would make a brilliant script for 'The Thick of It'
All politicians gaffe.Let us not forget the Cameron/Osborne schoolboy gibes about President Sarkozy earlier this year making remarks about dwarfs and referring to the Sarkozy lectern stool.Of course Cameron blamed it on a Labour conspiracy...wow... was it Sky News who were to blame for Browns microphone to be still switched on...not me guvnor.At least Gordon Brown had the guts to realise his mistake and for once for any politician went and apologised in person.Now there is a real CHANGE of policy for any party to take up.
On this issue I am on Brown's side. "Bigot" is hardly a swear word, . He is entitled to voice his opinion in private, his only mistake was that he forgot the microphone was on.
Quite so mustspeak, and from reading the transcript finally I can say that I think he pegged her just right - she is a bigot.
I'm still proud to be voting for the Labour PARTY. This is not a presidential election.
I'm happy there is a politician who recognizes a bigot when he sees one. There was no gaffe. The truth ain't a gaffe.
"At the end of the day her comment was ""sort of bigoted"", wasn?t it? GB knows he is under media scrutiny all the time, nowadays elections and politics are not about substance and policy, but about who looks better on camera and who plays their family dramas to the crowd best....or the amount of non-doms that you can get donating to your party...nobody gives a toss about policy, the minor issue of tacking the mountain of debt etc... poor schmock got caught saying probably the same thing that most educated people would think when faced with GD's question.
Imagine a simple role reversal scenario - what if any of the leading politicians (Nick Griffin doesn?t count) went on record saying ""where are all the Eastern Europeans coming from""? Any chance he would get called bigoted and backward? I think so...you just can?t win"
"Political correctness gone mad.
When you can't even call a bigot a bigot, it really IS political correctness gone mad!"
"It's political correctness gone mad...
when you can't even call a bigot a bigot!"
"Oh bollocks, good on him. What's all this 'arrogance' and 'big brother' stuff flying around for? Everyone judges people, especially when they're in their car, and frankly if you can't say something true in private, then that's a big brother state.
Of course he could have planned to do it, after all that bullying stuff helped him no end..."
"To trade unionists and socialists against immigration: please understand that your argument is based on the support of hereditary privilege: the only difference between 'born-and-bred-British' and immigrants is who and where their parents were. 'British jobs for British workers' is based on the same 'logic' as 'Power for the toffs,' and 'Know your place.'
To supporters of capitalism and market economics: recognise that everybody seeks to improve their lot, and whoever offers the best service (including his labour) at the most attractive price is the one who deserves your custom. You can't only believe that sometimes.
If you are a Christian, your founder preached that you are your brother's keeper, and your neighbour is whoever needs your help. In the Good Samaritan parable he taught that the foreigner is often the best citizen.
To a humanist/rationalist, all human beings have an equal right to respect and opportunity.
Until the whole world agrees a more liberal approach to allowing people to live wherever they wish, we will have to maintain some kind of control, but it is already more than adequate. There are some resource issues, and they need to be addressed, but the whole history of mankind is one of migration, and there is no good reason why it should stop now.
There are only two philosophies that lead to hostility to net immigration at current levels; racism, and cynical selfishness."
"Immigrants?
The only immigrants I'm worried about are those bloody Normans, coming over here and stealing our land!
In fact, almost a thousand years later, they've still got most of our land! People like that David Cameron..."
Right enough ewe black taff
His mistake was apologising for it.
I feel for Gordon Brown, being blamed for a recession here clearly did not create.. he could have saved on public spending early on maybe to give us a better chance had we known it was coming.. but hindsight and all that... hey? The amount of times though I have spent in conversation with just regular people who at any opportunity say things like 'ere it's down to those eastern Europeans don't you know.. you can't even be ripped off with ya electrics and plumbing these days without some Pole stepping in and doing it for half the price and in half the time!'.. It's a scandal! Fact is.. as regards to Gordon Brown, I would have probably walked away and said or thought very much the same thing.. doesn't mean I dislike the person, it just means I dislike some of her views.. we all have friends with bigoted opinions.. what bothered me more is seeing the TV vultures trying to interview her as she walked away.. she was clearly upset with Gordon Brown.. but she was probably upset because someone who she had respect for had publicaly, albeit not deliberately, insulted her. The people who really didn't give a monkeies about her feelings were the weaselsome press. Gordon Brown would not have said it to her face in the same way many of us wouldn't either.. but those who leaked this wanted to scupper Gordon Brown at the expense of a pensioners feelings.. I mean show me a pensioner who doesn't occasionally come across a tad bigoted.. so what!.. As for Gordon.. We live in a press driven society now.. if I were him I'd want out.. Gentleman Jim did ok after 1979.. Gordon Browns younger than he was too.. put ya feet up Gordon and let the greasy PR man in.. as George Bernard Shaw once said: Democracy is just a mechanism that ensures we get no more than we deserve.
For Pete's Sake! Since when is it not a good idea to call a Bigot, a Bigot? Who cares if the microphone was open or not? Truth is the woman's comments were, in fact, bigoted. Why is everyone so afraid to call out those who say evil and bigoted things? Good for the Prime Minister! Three cheers for speaking the truth. Was it not just as candid for her to shoot off her mouth with her personal feelings? Lets start being more honest and if the shoes fit, put em on and wear em ! Our own country is full of racists, bigots and so called religious folks who spew nothing but hate and insightful remarks about those they love to hate. Especially when it comes to our President who is attempting to do a great job despite the good ole boy white folks, of which I happen to be one, who just cannot stand that a black man made it to the White House. Never mind his extraordinary education and his amazing understanding of the World and Domestic situation at hand, instead they call him disgusting names and act like the ignorant and desperate racists they really are, all the while attempting to hide behind their so-called belief in God. OH PLEASE! ENOUGH....................
"Inevitably we now have the online hate campaign against this woman. Look her up on facebook, or in these comments pages and read the bile spewed out against her by people who probably think of themselves as 'liberal'. Most of the commenters have not apparently made any attempt to listen to the whole interview. They have read in this newspaper or from the tweetings of their 'liberal' friends that she said something about 'eastern Europeans'.
Please, before you show yourselves to be ignorant, go away and listen to what she said to Mr Brown and in the subsequent Sky / BBC interview. She was not in any way racist, she was not even offensive. She was merely asking a perfectly reasonable question about the effects of eastern European immigration on the economy of this country. Mister Brown could perhaps have argued that eastern European immigrants make and will continue to make a positive impact on the economy. He didn't. Instead, he used an incorrect statistic and claimed that the level of net immigration was smaller than was actually the case.
Go onto the comments pages of this newspaper (but not many of the other newspapers thankfully, whose readers show themselves in a far better light than many people here), the hate pages that have been set up on facebook or the darker recesses of twitter, and you will see that in the minds of a certain type of 'liberal', this woman has questioned government policy on immigration so she must be on a par with Adolf Hitler.
And I think that is really, really offensive.
It should never be ""bigoted"" to question any government policy.
It should never be ""bigoted"" to exercise free speech.
If anyone were to disagree with the above two statements, I would put it to them that their views were not liberal. They are in fact authoritarian.
On the subject of immigration itself, the Office of National Statistics has said that the population of the UK will rise by 10% in the next 24 years, and that 70% of that rise will be due to net immigration. Leaving aside Wales, Scotland and Ulster for the moment, England is the most densely populated large country in Europe already. Presumably people who have no problem with immigration also think that we have too much countryside and that house prices are far too cheap.
I know Guardian readers often tend to surround themselves with Guardian-reading friends and only watch BBC News so that they don't have to risk exposure to bigots, but just so you know the sort of laughs that people are having at your expense, read this:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/word-%27bigot%27-loses-all-meaning-201004292689/
Personally, I think it's only funny up to a point. Online bullying of old ladies who dare to disagree with your minority opinion isn't funny, it's just plain wrong.
You people scare me. You think you're 'liberals', but you're not."
I am confused regarding the reaction of the British media to Brown's comments. I think that Gillian Duffy does indeed look like an adorable grandmother. However, her comment about where all the Eastern Europeans immigrants were "flocking" from, is if not outright bigoted, at least not so sweet and adorable at all. Duffy is certainly entitled to have a point of view with regards to the issue of immigration, and to quiz a public official like Gordon Brown about his own point of view, after all that is democracy at work. Moreover, Brown is also entitled to have a point of view about the issue, and if his point of view dramatically differs from that of Duffy, what is he to say to that grandmother to her face? I think that he was quite courteous and polite with her, even his comment recorded while he was unaware of it was civil. Brown was simply expressing his ideas with regards to Gillian Duffy's position about immigration (stereotyping all Eastern Europeans as the same may indeed be considered bigoted) in the context of what he understood to be a private environment. I am surprised to see the British media sensationalizing and exaggerating the details and context of the issue. If anything, it is quite refreshing for me to see a politician expressing with conviction his political beliefs, more so because he did not know that he was being recorded.
I am confused regarding the reaction of the British media to Brown's comments. I think that Gillian Duffy does indeed look like an adorable grandmother. However, her comment about where all the Eastern Europeans immigrants were "flocking" from, is if not outright bigoted, at least not so sweet and adorable at all. Duffy is certainly entitled to have a point of view with regards to the issue of immigration, and to quiz a public official like Gordon Brown about his own point of view, after all that is democracy at work. Moreover, Brown is also entitled to have a point of view about the issue, and if his point of view dramatically differs from that of Duffy, what is he to say to that grandmother to her face? I think that he was quite courteous and polite with her, even his comment recorded while he was unaware of it was civil. Brown was simply expressing his ideas with regards to Gillian Duffy's position about immigration (stereotyping all Eastern Europeans as the same may indeed be considered bigoted) in the context of what he understood to be a private environment. I am surprised to see the British media sensationalizing and exaggerating the details and context of the issue. If anything, it is quite refreshing for me to see a politician expressing with conviction his political beliefs, more so because he did not know that he was being recorded.
""" Since the spirit of the times seems to call for thinking the unthinkable, let's try out something really outlandish, more bizarre than Peter Mandelson rejoining the government, wackier than quantitative easing. How about making the case that the European Union is a great force for democracy?""
With his suggestion that European Union is a great force for democracy the Author has elbowed out all others in advocating a lost cause. What has EU got to do with democracy?
The officials decide the policy and the European Parliament has no right to reject what the officials decide.
The civilians are not entitled to vote ""No"" is a referendum. If they do they would be told to change the decision like the Irish or worse, would not receive any further chance to vote-like the French.
Expansion further into East is nothing but a neo- colonialism and a devise to prod the Russians on their face."
"How can you mention EU and democracy in the same breath? Expansion was for cheap labour so the middle class pro-mass immigration multi-cultis could trample all over the working class. Did it ever improve the working class's prospects? NO.
It was the hypocritical liberal class's wet dream.
Ask yourself - who has benefitted? Manual workers or employers and the business class?"
"Actually from Russia, they got confrontation with Russia.

Of course what is interesting about CiF is the occasional outbreak of cognitive dissonance. So the rest of this article is actually about how the French and the Germans do not want to give aid, do not like freedom of travel, and think the Eastern Europeans ought to shut up. In other words, Britain rolled them and got the Eastern Europeans in on terms based on the economic liberal tradition of Anglosphere world.
So from the English-speaking nations they got protection from Russia, encouragement and technical advice on improving their defences to keep the Russians out, freedom to trade and move in Europe and some training for the civil servants. From the non-English speaking countries they got insults, demands that the EU work in France's economic interests even if that means ripping up the single market and not much else.
Fantastic. I can see why people want an ever-closer Union with France and Germany.
By the way, the President of the Czech Republic has made his views on the EU Superstate clear many times. As you say, someone who has lived under one can recognise another."
"lavatory paper can be more powerful than a nuclear bomb
Maybe, or maybe not.
But I can see the connection between it and the content of this article."
So Ozzy Osbourne was right about plutonium turds all along then? Who would have thought it.
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"The piece hung together as balanced reflection until it was undone by the last paragraph.

So the Arab potentates who doled this money to the disreputable IMF should answer to the millions of poverty-stricken muslims who have also seen their region invaded and ransacked by MrRumsfeld and chums. (... And what an awkward question; will muslim money be used to avoid whiping out toilet paper?)
Capitalism evolved in WesternEurope and its colonial offspring NorthAmerica and morphed into imperialism since ~1870's. This Imperialism is reliant on 'colonies' as sources of free fuel, foods, skilled -labour(sometimes) and sink for wastes, and debt. Whole continents far richer, and larger in peoples and resources namely Africa, SouthAmerica and parts of Asia fulfilled this role. Though cold-war propaganda had SOME in EasternEurope fooled it may have been the motivation of others to be obsequious to this brazen racist exploitation. What the 1980's counter-revolutionaries are now finding out is that this obsequiousness did not inoculate them from neon-colonialism.
And events look set to get ugly. Footloose-labour neocolonial 'gast-arbietism' is causing great social-tensions within the imperialist west. With more workers available than wages, it is used to drive wages down, under-invest in production, entrenched local poverty and stigmatise local communities as workshy, when the opposite is true. It is also causing demographic imbalance and skills drain from emigrant locations.

The French and German governments were (and are) absolutely correct. Moreover one large super-state is too diffuse and unwieldy. A far more workable solution is a minimum of two geo-political entities. Thus the impetus now should be to rebuild comecon with Russian participation and shrink the EU."
"EU expansion into eastern Europe was hardly philanthropic. It was done in bad faith and treated eastern countries as second class members. All got poorer deals than older members. It created a de facto second class set of member states. For example new EU members in 2004 received 25% of the CAP money that older members got.
The reasons for EU expansion were many, but altruism certainly wasn't one, western countries clearly looked and continue to look down on the new members from the east. France and Germany continue to be appalled by Turkish membership for apparently racist reasons. The UK wanted lots of new member states for it's own domestic reasons. Blair was afraid of closer integration because he thought it would play into the Tories hands. All EU rulers have always used the EU as a whipping boy for purely domestic political reasons. The population has come to hate it because the state uses the EU as a convenient entity on which to play the nationalist card. ""I'm going to Europe and I'll never back down"" sort of stance. No one ever talks about the interest of the Union as a whole, only about what their little bit of the Union can benefit from in the hope it will help their re-election chances. What makes me angry is that they then try to package this as if they are doing it ""in the national interest"", when the truth is that they are doing it in the interest of burnishing their ""hard man"" xenophobe image in front of the population in the hope of re-election."
"There is not an original thought in the whole of this article, just a long stream of cliches from the Cold War. Anyone in the old Warsaw Pact countries who saw the EU's approaches as being unselfish needed his head examined: cheap labour, vast piles of social wealth just waiting to be looted and the insane US longing for hegemonic Empire were the three sets of reasons that had the EU drooling.
And now: the loot has been taken, or is currently being transferred in bankruptcy proceedings; the cheap labour is proving that they also serve who only stand and wait, while the strategy of pushing Russian influence back goes on."
"Rafael
.
## The east is suddenly all far away again ..Labour had an opportunity, with enlargement, to re-couch the whole debate in moral terms. ##
This is a clever and unexpected article , thank you. I had forgotten that moral arguments can be made for caring for and working with all people.. that dont sound all nice and hippy but practical ...although lets not knock nice and hippy! :)
Take care.
B
PS Happy Easter to all"
"_AT_ althebald

There is a very simple reason for not getting the good deals of previous newcomers. Enlargement of the EU used to be a very slow process, the first enlargement happened about 20 years after its (predecessors) foundation, and it were just three new members with only Ireland to be propped up to get on a par with the other members.
It took another eight years for Greece to join and again five years for Spain and Portugal. They got very generous deals on cohesion funds. After another nine years three other rich and politically stable countries joined the EU.
But then came the Easterners - 10 at once with two others to follow up. And the vast majority of them with lots of problems, democratic deficits or huge corruption levels and almost all of them well behind the economical average of the other members.
The reason why they were admitted at that stage in their development was mainly a political one but the financial problems had to be adressed. Agreement was only reached by cutting previous levels of subsedies - and even those were and are quite remarkable.

However, even with the political interest to integrate former Warsaw Pact members into the EU and their willingness to accept reduced cohesion funds, the massive eastern enlargement would probably not have happened there and then if the whole block had not been perceived as being of a managable size compared to the then existing union.
Turkey is quite another calibre. It would become the largest country of the union in terms of territory, the second largest in terms of population (and growing!) but one of the poorest when it comes to income levels - rich Istanbul reaches only 41% of old EU members - the poor east gets even as low as 7%.
Do you really think it is racist when some countries which are large budget contributers wonder how to finance that enterprise under existing rules?
Do you really think it is racist when concerns are voiced that a country of that size with significant democratic deficiencies might not be integrated in a community of values that it doesn't seem to hold very dear (euphemistically spoken)?
It's all very nice for US presidents from Clinton to Obama to lobby for Turkish membership.
I will listen to them when they have torn down the wall to Mexico, given them free access to their labour markets, paid generously to improve Mexican infrastructure with US-taxes and have set up a US-Mexican body that has a say (over congress) on economical and other political decisions.
As long as that hasn't happened I can only repeat the famous words of Chirac: ""They missed an opportunity to shut up!"""
"_AT_ Rafael Behr
I live in one of those Eastern bloc countries. They're all the same, basically: that is, the EU represents free money, that's all. The communists who ran the old system quickly became capitalist free-marketeers. 'Comrades' are now big wheels in the property market, insurance and infrastructure building. Of course, everything is run the same way as before: corruption, corruption, corruption.
So, if you are naive enough to think that as the EU rolls east there are millions of ecstatic proles dancing in the streets, you couldn't be more wrong. The old communists, these George Grosz figures with their pot bellies, cigars and obscene wealth, are up to their armpits in free Euros pouring in.
The proles remain hungry, penniless and urinated on, just as before.
Plus ca change ......."
If the 'free movement of capital and labour' doesn't mean the movement of capital to areas where labour is cheap and the movement of cheap labour to areas where it is dear, what else does it mean? The EU has nothing to do with democracy and liberty and everything to do with profit for the bosses and power for the bureaucrats.
"The EU was supported by the US to try and undemine Russia and Germany at the same time. The US has turned more and more to Austrian Economics of inequality, a pool of unemployment, so retricting their own economy.
So the preference is to try and destroy Germany, as Britain did in 1914, as we too had adopted plunder instead of economic production after 1815.
A common currency prevents any market from functioning properly, particularly when allied to a Maastricht or Austrian/Friedmanite policy.
The EU is a financiers organisation, not a ""bosses"" one. A boss is someone who employs people, and the EU has worked to the detriment of that. How well have manufacturers prospered compared to bankers and insurers and rent collecors?"
"Nihon,
Has the RMT actually attacked Maastricht in gereral, or only as far as it affects the Public Sector? He seems to be in line with Brendan Barber on that.
That is, is the destruction of private industry as important to Bob Crow as the enrichment of the Public Sector? That way, there will never be full employment. Do they want it?"
Yeah all that's fantastic but why haven't you bothered to include any policy proposals in your article?
"Who prescisely are ""we"" in this context, and come to that who are you?
Tesco might have set up in Eatern Europe, wonderful obviously, but the flood of cheap labour has been highly damaging to many British people particularly at the lower end of the labour market. As per usual the shitty, zero legitimacy ""elite"", just did it with no consent whatsover.
Oh I forgot, the faction in office conned/bought 22% of the electorate in 2005 - this being British ""democracy"""
"""It was an altruistic desire to lift millions out of poverty""
was it?
by the way, I did not get asked, did you?
I have great doubts that the Brussels lobby puppets had anything else in mind, beside sound good phrases, than expending the rip off option of the fat cats, to the disfavour of ALL in Europe."
"I love reading the pedantic rants of the looney tunes on the CiF. You guys can't even be consistent with your whining. One day you guys are complaining that we are trying to destroy the EU and the glorious superstate and the next you are saying we are using the EU to further our empire.
Here is the truth: we don't care what you guys do with the EU. Ex: Shun Turkey and your key to not being dependent on Russia for your energy needs. It is your future. Expand the EU, shrink the EU, disband the EU, pass the Lisbon treaty and cede more national determination, and etc. In the end it does not matter to us. You guys are impotent and outside your continent no one cares. We humor you guys so the rest of the world has to humor you too. We prop up Europe; we don't prevent it from reaching glorious superpower status. However, keep tilting at windmills when it concerns the United States. It is entertaining stuff."
"Oh no, not the old canard about the EU preventing war in Europe. For the 1000th time, by the time the Treaty of Rome was signed the six nations in question were all members of NATO, so going to war with each other had already become a practical impossibility.
Also, it was the brave people of the Eastern block countries themselves who threw off the Soviet yoke, not the EU. In fact, Mitterrand and co. made no secret of the fact that the fall of the iron Curtain did not suit their agenda at all, as it was likely to halt the creation of a European superstate.
As for democracy, the EU would not recognise this if it hit it in the face. The only only democracy that counts in the EU is the one that says ""yes"" to all their designs. If they say ""no"", these pesky people will be asked to vote again, and again, and again until they are so fed up they agree.
And for this country the EU has been a total disaster from an economic viewpoint."
Sadly the ex-Soviet block countries then got into property booms just like the rest of us, and we all need to learn how to avoid them in future.
"""Expanding the European Union wasn't just about giving us cheap labour. It was an altruistic desire to lift millions out of poverty"".
Well that's one view class. Has anyone else got any ideas? You at the back, what do you think?
""The EU is about giving up one's heritage and mortgaging the future, Miss"".
Interesting. Anyone else?
""Miss, Miss, the European Union is a bloated over-regulated Franco-German axis that seeks to promote some extrovert socialist principles while contorting market economics. The net result being that the Third World does not stand a chance"".
Thank you Gupta, nice clear voice, good. This week's essay is 'It is good that Spain is richer now but at the cost of Castleford? Discuss."
"Thanks for answering your own question:

And the bribery nearly worked, but, as with all the corruption it carried the seed of its own failure. Ask the Irish."
"I am sorry. I'm still laughing out loud. Have you been to Eastern Europe lately, Mr. Behr?!?!?
The soft loo paper is about all they have, if they can afford it! Give them the good old times when they had a job for life, decent education and health cover. Just to name the very basic needs of a human being. Many in this part of the world are living below the poverty line. Their countries run by corrupt governments which are propped up by their foreign proxies. It is a far cry from those ""terrible"" times they look back on with such nostalgia.
The IMF has made sure that these countries, which can ill afford it, are up to their necks in debt. The sums were a fraction before the ""benevolent"" west came in to ""save"" them out of the goodness of it's heart.
The whole region is in meltdown and the financial crisis tsunami hasn't even hit there yet.
They are already ruing the day they joined this very questionable company."
You can't eat freedom. Freedom won't put the clothes on your back or educate your children. It will not make your children better when you have not vaccinated your children against measles, mumps, rubella and other childhood diseases because you cannot pay for it. Freedom is an empty word when you are on the edge of existence.
"_AT_Stonedecrows

Aren't you just paraphrasing what I said when I said ""Blair was afraid of closer integration because he thought it would play into the Tories hands.""? What you write supports what I say, that enlargement was for political reasons. At least from Blair's point of view. I don't dispute the practicalities of giving new members less CAP money, only that the principal is utterly wrong. If the EU couldn't have afforded enlargement, then it shouldn't have been allowed to enlarge. It's the hypocrisy that makes me angry.

No I don't. I think it's racist when we are told that Turkey can't join because they are majority muslim, or because most of the country isn't on the continent of Europe. Neither of those reasons are sound, and I have heard both used by German and French politicians. When good sensible reasons are given for not allowing Turkey to join immediately, then I can accept them. What I can't accept is the argument that Turkey should never be allowed to join simnply because of the majority religion in the country. But then the reasons for not allowing Turkey to join (that they are too poor) equally applied to easter Europe. But look, they were allowed to join because they are seen as ""white"". Letting the poor east join because they are ""christian"" Europeans, but not poor Turkey because they are not European and not christian is racist. Like it or not."
"So the EU is to be lauded for nobly reaching out to the millions in Eastern Europe for lifting them out of extreme poverty and the political-social wreckage many faced after the fall of Communism? And yet the fact these countries wanted to join the EU is then used as proof that it's a fair, democratic system?
As always, the rhetoric of the Brussels bureaucrat sounds like a drabber, kindly Mafia enforcer.
I'm inclined to agree with much of what you've said here Rafael in terms of what the EU has brought to Europe and that expansion, where possible and right for the other member states, should be encouraged.
But again you miss the point of what turns many people off the EU - this patronising insistence that Brussels knows best and that concerns about the erosion of national sovereignty and people's democratic representations are some kind of 'glitch' that the EU must design its way out of.
And the repetition of the lie that this is the only way the EU must be and to disagree is to side with the racists, reactionaries and Eurosceptics.
Libertas believes in the grand vision of the European project and wants to see more cooperation with member states, not less. And we strongly believe that it is only meaningful it it comes from the democratic will of the people: whose concerns over loss of sovereignty should be respected as more than just a quaint eccentricity or reactionary xenophobia.
Moreover we believe in not accepting the paucity of options for Europe, and in coming together to create a new vision for Europe.
www.libertas.eu"
"This article is naive and wrong on detail but not entirely absurd in its suggestion that the EU has strengthened democracy in ""New Europe"".
Yes, as almostinstinct says, the EU has been seen here very much as a source of funds, but the need to bring legislation into line with EU norms, the constant consultations involved, and very many regional schemes (the regeneration of cross border projects etc) have all had a great impact on improving what I can only call the democratic atmosphere. Not to mention the dismantling of borders and enormous expansion of the possibilities of travel for large numbers of people... The mood in the CR is obviously not EU-phoric as it was in the first days of its huge symbolic value as a ""return to Europe"", but Europhobia is far less common in this country than in the UK, for example. It has often been pointed out that the ODS (Klaus's former party, Topolanek's), despite some eurosceptic rhetoric among some leaders, has a relatively Europhile voting base. Topolanek's increasingly pro-European government fell not because a pro-European stance was unacceptable to the people, let alone because of the recession, but because we have an electoral system that constantly throws up very weak coalition governments dependent on one or two MPs votes for survival...
Paradoxically, you can see the positive impact of the EU here in the fact that most Czechs do not favour further expansion - it's a rather selfish position, perhaps, but they argue that given the difficulties the EU has had in incorporating the present new states, including the fact that bringing governance up to average EU standards is far from complete, further expansion is likely to destroy the dynamic of improvement here... Eurosceptics in the West, like Move any Mountain, don't quite appreciate that while euroscepticism in say Britain is motivated by the perception that Britain has a good standard of governance and democracy that needs - perhaps - defence from erosion by Brussels, euroscepticism in the East is rather murkier, all too often motivated by a desire to resist reforming governance in ways that would reduce corruption, inertia and abuse of power...
Rightwing, even sometimes far leftwing Westerners take Klaus's ideas on the EU, climate change, deregulation as an answer to all financial ills, the wickedness of NGOism etc etc. at face value, or rather at their own value (and in his professorial way he likes to put them very generally, pseduo-philosophically), but remember what they mean in his own little country...It is a country doing quite nicely in many ways, but it has a seriously non-functional judiciary and egregious corrupt relations between a narrow economic and political elite. In local perspective Klaus's big ideas look like little more than an attempt to ringfence this situation - to make sure that no external or internal institutions or forces [EU, European courts, Czech courts, civil associations) should be allowed to interfere with the workings of a narrow party or cross-party ""parliamentary"" oligarchy plus its business chums...
Finally, I believe the recession situation is very bad in the Baltics, and the Hungarians did something very silly with foreign-pegged mortgages that has increased the impact there. But readers should not be alarmist - at least not about the CR. As yet the recession has been much less perceptible here than in the UK.
PS Fareastender
Yeah, Klaus did make some silly speech about how gay registered partnershiips meant the end of Western civilisation. But a) the law still went through, and b)...well, I hesitate to tittle-tattle, but that one young (single) blonde with whom Klaus had a suspiciously well-publicised affair...everybody here think's it was a bit of a diversion to reassure the punters that their prez is a a red-blooded hetero...when actually, the buzz has always been....hint hint nudge nudge say no more..."
"The EU is a free trade zone. In a free trade zone countries agree to compete in a common market.
You don't bail out competitors. If a competitor goes bankrupt, it's not a problem."
"What has issuing orders about what we should and shouldnt do in our country to do with free trade? Anyone?
The eu is run solely for the benefit of those who are in its upper echelon to them we are just the irritating little ants running around just waiting to be squashed.
Its one of the hidden items in the so called ‘Treaty that there is a police force to quell any dissent or unrest amongst us ants (well weve already seen them in action) and if we dont behave they will kill us because they are bringing back the death penalty to make it look legal, if we protest about anything we are seen as terrorists and will be put to death."
"If the East Europeans want some of our debts they can have them. After all we in the UK got saddled with American ones.

No they were too busy taking our money to worry to about the consequences.
Now we have run out they are beginning to think."
"The career politicians of those eastern countries look to secure good jobs, benefits and pensions for themselves once in the EU--just listen to them speak! The people of these countries are not so sure and aren't being heard by the EU. Their imperialistic dream isn't shared by all.
The EU's response to dissent:
See for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j6QTqFOEjo"
"You're right, it wasn't just about the creation of a pool of cheap labour, which would undercut British workers and try and cover up the pathetic Education system brought in by New Labour, which fails to train our own workers. The Tories and Labour did the same thing in the 1960's, only this time with Commonwealth workers, exploiting their labour in factories, while British workers were put on the dole.
Lets not forget what Ted Heath took us into in the 1970's, a ""Common Market"", there was nothing in there regarding a European Court which could overrule our own court, or EU laws which have to be applied, regardless of the consequences? You must think people are stupid (some are) to believe that this was some sort of altruistic Socialist project (like Russia, China, Cuba and North Korea?).
This is about power, a central power that controls an entire continent. Putting that power into the hands of the few, denying a country it's sovereignty and right to govern itself, based on the needs of its people. Why does Peter Mandelson need a Maserati? Is that wealth redistribution?
You promised to help Easter Europe when Hitler was at the door, leaving the Czechs out to dry and letting Hitler and Stalin carve up Poland. And what happened after the war? You left them at the mercy of the Iron Curtain.
The EU cannot be trusted, like governments, it will only serve itself."
"These Eastern European countries never were genuine communism. Ofcourse, like the rest of the capitalist media, Behr distorts what is communism, uses the model of Stalinism to leave us just with capitalism and then support Europe which will make capitalism even more unequal and unfair.
Keynes, I know Bob Crowe condemnes the EU as a bosses union. Behr at least admits it gives the bosses cheap labour."
"The EU is primarily for peace. NATO does not gurantee peace between members (Greece and Turkey come to mind), but the EU does ensure peace. Under the present financial horrors, brought on by lack of regulation and oversight by national governments, not the EU, countries would be throwing up tariffs, pandering to the xenophobes and resorting to all the grim nationalistic rubbish that has brought Europe to war so often before.After the crash happened in 1929,brought about by bankers and financiers, bankrupt nations turned to right wing politicians. The crash is here again and the closest to protectionism mentioned is France trying to move one car plant back from Slovakia. This is why the EU was founded-to make war too expensive for the ruling elite of Europe to consider. Killing their own citizens has never been a consideration, but investments are sacrosanct.
The boarders of North America and Oceania are going to rise again, but the masses of unemployed British can do what they have been doing for decades- moving to Germany, France and other EU countries for work.
The UK can't stop getting into wars, but at least the European Union is off limits."
"They could start by asking the Tories to consider why, if the EU is a conspiracy against national sovereignty, countries fresh from Soviet colonisation were so desperate to join?
Because unlike us they haven't been it the EU long enough or really looked in to the way it is run to realise what corrupt lying trough monkeys the people at the top really are. They think nothing of their electorate, only going on their merry way with a One cap fits all policy.
We must never forget either what a great bastion of democracy it is, if you don't vote the way they want you have to keep on voting until you do."
Let Ireland vote on it.
"It is really new to me that Germany and France should have been ardently against the ""eastern expansion"", as the article states, while a ""morally superior"" England backed it. I would like to see the proof of this. What every school child learns in Germany about german reunification by analysing speeches and comments is that the british government under Thatcher was ardently against german unification and tried to block it as long as it could. Well, does that mean that everyone in England was against it?
This kind of kindergarten arguments are found in every other article you can read in british newspapers. ""The Germans"", ""the British"". That's just words. What we see in Germany is a fallen border in the east. You cross a bridge in a german city and you arrive in a polish city without seeing an official. You travel from Munich to Prague without a passport. There are no borders all around Germany any more, except the one to Suisse which doesn't really count (agreements). Well I would call that bold - and a very good thing for the people.
Eastern enlargement? This wa not about a ""decision"" and a ""policy"". It was about a situation in which a structure shifted and a new pattern had to apply. This pattern was ready after the fall of the ""iron curtain"": the imperfect - but existant - EU. Of the two possibilities - european integration or seperate existance with all the national fervour and idiocy and sullenness because of our history - the first one was by far the better one.
Security in the EU? What more do you have to do to show how secure you feel than tearing the borders down (and, by the way: No british government ever joined Schengen). We can live with each other, I guess. And I'm talking about individuals here.
Prosperity in the EU? Prosperity cannot be created like magic (also the anglo-saxon economic ""model"" pursued this alchemistic path), it has to grow slowly. Foundations are just laid, do you expect miracles? Any idea about the cost of german reunification? Try to shoulder that. Of course things in the east will not change in an instant. 45 years is a long time.
Reglementation? Absolute freedom is not sustainable. And we need sustainability on the continent. Better slower growth and basic security than a freedom without regulation. This misused idea of ""freedom"" was never more than an excuse to sell opium to china and send a warship when met with opposition. Reglementaion is necessary, but it has to be debated.
Democracy? What do you expect from our national and nationalistic heritage? to vanish in thin air? If elected leaders from France and elected leaders from Germany meet and set a rule for both states, it is understood that not everyone was voted for by everybody in France and Germany. It depends how brave you are and if you dare to enter the discussion.
Burocracy? Of course. An unavoidable evil which slowly, slowly not only glues the seperate states together but takes roots over borders. Second best instrument for lasting peace.
Turkey? Personal oppinion: It should be a part of the EU. But the english government supporting Turkey is another category: As long as ""England"" does not only not take part in Schengen or the Euro but stays opposed to the european project in general, how will anybody give half an euro pence on any opinion they have about european decisions? Few."
"The former soviet union did have some accomplishments ,
Eventually it did provide an adequate if drab existence for millions of people.
Above all it prevented the conflicts in those unstable Eastern European countries which meld into the Balkans.
The state planning was rather good at building basic infrastructure , railways , power generation , and services such as education and health care.
Scientific and technical achievements were considerable and have since spilled around the world.
I was talking to someone who grew up in East Germany, he said life was not so bad as portrayed , there was not unemployment , education was free, public transport was plentiful and virtually free. It was however boring. The worst was not being allowed to leave.
Others from the Soviet union have said that when all the fragmented cultures still believed in the socialist ideal, they saw themselves as family, so the conflicts did not manifest, when the system failed the conflicts came back , in her case it was no longer possible to live in the Russian East , so she had to move back to European Russia.
Unfortuneatly it does seem that democratic capitalism does tend to exacerbate
ethnic and religious conflicts.
Another anecdote , talking to the owner of a car lot , who was trying to sell me acar of course, eventually said he was from the Ukraine, he was educated as an automation engineer , and though he made a good living selling cars he did wonder if this was the best use for his education."
"The French and Germans were right and we were catastrophically wrong as usual. The Easties have turned out to be nothing but a bunch of fifth columnists inside the European Union, taking American orders, setting up torture camps at American behest, sneering at we ""socialised"" West Europeans, while taking billions from us in subsidies each year so they can lower their tax rates and boast about how they're really with the free market vibe. Then when free market forces lead their basket case countries to fall apart, they turn to us again, not asking for, but demanding, another hand-out to help tide them over.
Letting these primitives into the European Union was the biggest mistake we ever made, not some noble act of which we should be proud. Indeed, the serious countries in Western Europe should consider kicking the Easties out altogether."
"Proč vyškrtnout tato?

Are you sure it was only one? I got the impression he was a bit more serial than that."
"""Expanding the European Union was an altruistic desire to lift millions out of poverty"" in the same way that the Iraq war was in the name of freedom and democracy.
I don't think the UK Government expected much resistance to the influx of a large body of white immigrants, even if they speak a different language. As usual, they were warned but chose to carry on regardless."
"Nice article, nice intentions, but events have overtaken the argument this article is based on.
Young people came to Ireland from Eastern Europe in the last decade in their hundreds of thousands to seek work and money. Now they are going back to Eastern Europe in their hundreds of thousands from Ireland for two reasons.
One, the work they came for has dried up.
Two, things are better at home than on social welfare in Ireland.
The 'poverty' in Eastern Europe which the writer seeks to abolish may exist in the material world when East and West are compared.
But who better to help you in a global depression than your friends, community and extended family? Fortunately for Eastern Europe, these helping hands are still ready to help, while in Western Europe they have long been replaced by disinterested relationships based on convenience that will leave you at the mercy of the state when times get tough.
The writer is generous in his praise for the EU's contribution to Eastern Europe, ""Tens of millions of people were helped out of poverty"", yet I have walked through massive Western-owned supermarkets in Romania selling goods at Western European prices to people earning a tenth of Western European wages.
Lets be honest. Western Europe wants a market for its goods and somewhere close to home to build factories and employ cheap labour. And it wants to keep Russia out of Europe.
Altruism has nothing to do with it, except to be used for window dressing."
Extending the EU to the east was a plot by the anti europeans to destroy the idea of a democratic United States of Europe which would have been a counter balance to the USA and might have been an improvement for the majority of people in Europe to the idea of globalisation ie a race to the bottom. Unfortunately it has worked, we now have the worst of the alternatives no democracy and a bureaucracy that is working on behalf of the rich.
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"nihon- i'm intrigued by all this talk that the eu is a capitalist bastion, when it has introduced laws like schengen, allowing free movement and the right to work anywhere in the community, as well as instituting the echr in all countries.
the rejection by the irish, i would suggest, is more an indication of how people are reacting to the imposition of liberal politics at the expense of national autonomy and regardless as to whether the inhabitants of a country want to cede domestic lawmaking to a bunch of unelected, faceless tossers
nothing to do with neo-liberalism, just the imposition of soi disant 'progressivism'."
"althebald

They got poorer deals than the Irish or the French or the Spanish, they certainly didn't get poorer deals than the UK. Your complaint seems to be that the UK (and Germany) didn't massively subsidise them to the same extent we had to subsidise France. Just because we were already being ripped off by the existing EU countries doesn't mean we were morally obliged to be completely bankrupted by extending the absurd CAP even further.
WJohnC
""Also, it was the brave people of the Eastern block countries themselves who threw off the Soviet yoke, not the EU.""
Sorry, but it looked far more like the USSR ultimately collapsed from its own internal contradictions and simply lost interest in Eastern Europe. With the possible exception of Romania, very little in the way of ""throwing off of yokes"" seemed to be required.
I have some sympathy for Eastern Europeans, but if they thought the EU was going to save them they were suffering from a dangerous illusion. The EU essentially alternates between serving the national interests of France and the wider interests of neo-liberalism."
Of course it was just about cheap labour. Vote NO to Lisbon - while you still can.
"Ignorance they say is bliss and you certainly have a lot of very happy people commenting on this thread.
The reality was, that after the fall of Communism, many EU politicians were deeply sceptical about letting Eastern European countries join the EU. It was the Eastern Europeans themselves who practically battered the door to membership down. They did so because they wanted to be sure not just of the financial, but also of the military security, membership of the EU would bring. In a word, they were still scared of Russia."
DrJohnZoldberg the schengen visa entitles the holder to move freely in the schengen area. Do you have any idea how difficult it is for people who do not live in this zone, to get a visa? Even for families to visit this exclusive club one has to jump through so many hoops the member states have set up. It is degrading and disgusting. There is nothing positive about it. The only benefit is for the exclusive club of the schengen countries.
"GuyFox
Meanwhile the non-primitive Anglo-Saxon economies come down like a deck of cards, resting on their imagined superiority. How horrid of the Easties not to play fair."
"The hasty expansion of the EC into Eastern Europe was wholly political. The UK as usual danced to the American tune in rushing membership for former Warsaw Pact countries in order to build an anti-Russian geopolitical bloc. Economic considerations came last.
The same is now behind the US demand that we absorb non-European, Islamic Turkey. The interests of Europe are not considered, only the idea of incorporating a powerful strategic state permanently in the US orbit. Is Turkey European? No. Is Turkey liberal or democratic? Again, No. Someone posted:

So is it ""racist"" to keep out Morocco, or Israel, South Africa or Russia? How about Australia? If being in Europe, or a part of European culture are not necessaries to EU membership - where are the boundaries to be drawn?
All of the countries I have just mentioned have much closer cultural ties and affinities with Europe than Turkey. So why is Turkey being pushed for EU membership and not these others? Because of its strategic value to the USA. No matter that 80 million muslims will be a MASSIVE PROBLEM FOR EUROPE TO ACCOMMODATE. Everywhere Muslims live close to other faiths there is violence: Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, Nigeria, Sudan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Bosnia, Chechnya, Israel, Iraq, lebanon, the UK, etc. etc. There is a reason for this - and that is that Islam is a faith whose goal is the separation and self-government of its adherents under Islamic Law. Pretending Muslims are no different from Buddhists or Methodists is the road to disaster."
"Axander
There was a powerful, successful, multicultural 'muslim' state in Europe a thousand years ago, namely the Caliphate of Cordoba. The reward for the tolerance and multiculturalism of Cordoba was the Spanish Inquisition.
Turkey has had a secular tradition and opposition to Islamic fundamentalism for a long time now. Whether its good or bad for the EU to have Turkey as a member is up for debate, but surely having an EU member situated so close to Middle Eastern and Central Asian gas and oil fields is better for the EU than having to depend on Russian good will and the good will of Gulf States for fuel supplies?"
"Spoutwell Turkey HAD a secular tradition. If you follow events in Turkey you will see that Islam is gaining strength there.
One just needs to look to Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq for the most up to date situation. The Bosnian federation trained and fought with mujahadeen troops. It has now changed from a secular society, which it was in the former Yugoslavia, into a mostly Muslim state.
Kosovo Albanians have ethnically cleansed the majority of all other minorities to become a 90% majority, itself. They have taken money from anyone who would give it. Most of these donors are from Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.
Mosques are springing up like mushrooms after rain, while 14th,15th and 16th century Serbian orthodox churches and monasteries are being razed to the ground by the Albanians. There has never been tolerance and understanding. While the rest of Europe sleeps havoc is on its way."
"Spencer
Your points are relevant but the solution to the growth of extremism is surely inclusion rather than the opposite. If extremism is growing among Muslims in the Balkans (most of them only Muslim in little more than name before the splitting up of Yugoslavia) there is certainly an explanation for such extremism, unwelcome as it is.
The military intervention of Western powers in Iraq and other muslim areas has done nothing to promote secularism in Turkey.
There is no guarantee that EU membership will 'liberalise' Turkey but after so many 'imposed' solutions on muslim areas over the years it is worth trying something less extreme."
"If you are inferring that the Serbs pushed the Muslims in Bosnia to it I think that you need to research the huge amount of information not brought to you by the BBC and CNN on the subject.
There are many more reasons why Yugoslavia fell apart. Religion was, as always, used to tell the story the way the US and the EU wanted to tell it. John Major double crossed Yugoslavs at Maastricht. It was expedient to do so so he could get the deal he wanted for Britain. This is just one of the very many situations where Yugoslavia was hung out to dry.
If it had been in the US and EU's interest to keep the country together nothing could have been easier. Instead, they encouraged the Slovenes and Croats to break away even though it was against the constitution. Bosnia exploded by deliberate meddling and encouragement of the US. Look up Galbraith.
Having lived in the UK for over 30 years I can say without a doubt that there is a time bomb ticking there. The Brits ignore it at their peril."
"spencer
I'm sure every side in the Balkans wants to blame someone else. I was referring to the ethnic cleansing of muslims which occured there. Whoever was to blame, it is not unexpected that a growth in muslim extremism was one result.
Having lived in the UK myself when there were IRA bombs going off, I agree that such threats cannot be ignored. But heavy-handedness did not reduce the threat of IRA bombs.
Unlike in the north of Ireland the UK has little control over the grievances of muslims in the Middle East against Western intervention there. But if the UK is to continually be part of that intervention and back it up to the hilt, then the time bomb you refer to is not going to go away."
"Spoutwell I know exactly what you were referring to.
It is not a question of every side blaming someone else. On the contrary. The Serbs have been blamed for all of it. This is the official and only line the British, EU and US governments have taken from the very beginning. It makes matters easier for Joe public to understand. You have to have a good guy and a bad guy. Black and white. No grey area or Joe public might get confused and start asking uncomfortable questions. One of those question could be....... if the Serbs were ethnic cleansers why is it that they have been ethnically cleansed from Croatia, Bosnia (my family included) and the Albanians in Kosovo now comprise over 90% of the population? Today Serbia is the most multi cultural place in the former Yugoslavia."
They are the problem for Brits at the bottom of the pile!
"Personally, I think the influx of polish women into the UK has improved the looks of the nation no end.
That comment has probably alienated multiple sectors of society."
Mentioning immigration: the perfect whipping boy for immigrants encountering hardship.
"This is going to turn nasty!
Early guess - 400 comments and very possibly more!"
"That's not racism it's a statement of fact. Ask any builders or joiners or plumbers and they will tell you about Polish workers undercutting them. The whole country knows about cheap Polish labour. Your friend really needs to get a grip of reality.

Based on a conversation overheard in a shop and some vague allegations of racism in the workplace. Sounds more like the beginnings of a paranoid psychosis."
"MrsOTM is Polish, has Polish friends. and reads Polish newspapers.
She has not heard of any anti Polish feeling, nor does she know of anyone who has experienced it. The Polish newspaper published here in the UK has made no mention of it.
It may happen in a few cases but I think you are over egging the cake a little."
"If you increase the number of people competing for the same jobs, it makes no odds whether they come from the next estate, town, county, country or continent. It still drives down wages and/or increases unemployment in that sector. It is not racist to acknowledge this interaction of supply and demand.
Particular reactions to the situation may well be racist, but that does not make the economic issue go away."
"Well congratulations Aleksandra, you've actually just made me think less of the admirable Polish people as a result of this ""Desperately Seeking Victimhood"" piece of pernicious nonsense.
How you can logically get from an overheard conversation in a shop by a patently invented ""friend of trembling voice"", to some kind of Polish immigrant apocalypse...

is absolutely beyond me. Very poor article indeed."
"It was always going to happen.
The UK boom attracted huge numbers of short and medium term economic migrants. There was some resentment, as most of these immigrants could work for much less in the short term, but overall there weren't too many problems.
Now the bubble has burst and jobs are scarce. Resentment is aimed at those who are seen to be taking jobs from locals in hard times. Not nice but 100% predictable.
A more unpleasant side to it is that, while Polish culture and skin colour helped integration in the good times, they will probably make discrimination easier in the bad times.
""Don't hire any darkies/Muslims"" sounds much more outrageous to most people than ""don't hire any Poles/Slovaks."" It shouldn't, but it probably does. Here on CiF one can slag off Eastern Europeans with much more freedom than more 'visible' minorities.
Anyway, what with the crisis and the fall of the pound, a lot of Eastern European immigrants will probably leave the UK and Eire of their own free will, rather than be hounded out. Dell just moved from Limerick to Lodz--the start of a trend??
A Polish friend joked last week about the prospect of British people cleaning her house in the future. They would love it..........."
"550 bn for the bankers. State support for the largest companies - subsidies for empoyers accompanied by 'internships' i.e. free labour. Govt plans to use future taxes to buy securitised housing debt from banks. Several hundred trillion dollars worth of fictitious speculative debt that needs to be paid off by someone - not the rich who caused it, obviously! - and the prospect of widespread poverty, misery and unemployment.
Obviously it them Poles that are to blame! There were no recessions before Poles came here!
The right is warming to the prospect of us proles fighting each other - whipped on by the usual bigots - while the rich waltz off with our children's security!"
"No doubt in Poland - a veritable bastion of tolerance of civility - immigrants will be feted and supported by all in times of hardship.
All I know is that the 20 or so Poles in the pub watching the football in a pub in Ealing looked didn't look like they were too under the cosh. Drinking and mixing with the locals and being very vociferous in their support of Utd."
"This is somewhat anecdotal, and can be paraphrased as: ""A friend of mine overheard a conversation between two strangers in a shop, this accurately reflects the reality accross the country"".
No, the ubiquitous discrimination in this country against anyone who wants more than seven pounds an hour for unskilled/semi-skilled work is a bigger problem than your feelings I'm afraid. And many East Europeans can and will work for less because they are here temprarily and will put up with a much lower standard of living than anyone can tolerate in the longer term."
"Danot
12 Jan 09, 1:17pm (8 minutes ago)

The problem with Polish builders is not only the price, it's also the quality of and speed of their work, cheaper, better and faster."
A poor article and I fully endorse swiftyboy's comment.. Talk about 'making news' rather than reporting it... I can see one vacancy coming up soon Aleks!
"CzarnyKot - I agree with everything you say there, but perhaps one caveat...
'A Polish friend joked last week about the prospect of British people cleaning her house in the future. They would love it...........'
I am certain that in many parts of the world British people are engaged in what could broadly be called domestic service. I know several who spent gap years doing more or less that.
It's just that it is not in Poland or Eastern Europe for whatever reason, for good or for bad."
socialistMike, from the way you write, it's interesting to note your use of the word "bigot" to describe others. At what point does the prospect of self-parody become unattractive?
"If Brown hadn't allowed millions of Britons to sit on their backsides during the boom years then there would have been fewer immigrants picking up the slack and we might be better positioned to face the recession.
Another triumph for the genius in no 10."
"Simple economics really. More supply and less demand results in higher competition, not rocket science really. Pity that politicians at Westminster and Brussels don't listen to any economists who might say no to them.
If this economic mess is as bad as it is looking as it could be there will be millions unemployed, mass deflation followed by sharp inflation, the pound struggling to stay afloat, a large number of retailers going to the wall, an exodus of highly skilled expensively trained British professionals, massive increase in government debt, massive tax increases to punitive levels, civil strife and (worst case scenario) possible food shortages as the nation cannot afford to import all that is needed to feed the still increasing population.
Overheard conversations in a shop will be the least of worries."
"Poles are taking the jobs as ""cheap labour"". She really did not want to hear more
As others have said, this is not a racist slur but a statement of fact. Of course, many Poles have moved West for various reasons.
Some have moved for more than financial reasons-- professional or educational opportuniuties, lifestyle reasons (try being a gay interior designer in provincial Poland)-- but the majority have moved short-term and because they leave their normal life back home, they can afford to work crazy hours for much less money than a Briton who has to pay all his financial responsiblities in pounds.
I don't blame Polish people for doing this, but I can't outrageously condemn Britons who feel aggrieved at the situation. We're all just pawns in the Brave New Globalised World etc. etc..
I am very happy here in Poland but if I arrived here with hundreds of thousands of other Britons and started working in jobs often done by the younger and poorer sections of society I would not expect a particulary warm welcome.
Anyway, given track record i'm sure the author is exaggerating."
"This should be retitled------------
An Exaggerated Problem, The Perfect Blog."
"I'm sure our East European guest workers are suffering just as much as anybody else from recession.
The one who came to my door last night begging for ""donations"" to help him continue his Masters degree in engineering was a case in point.
Jobless as I currently am, I sent him packing with rather unkind words. I really do have no problem with East Europeans coming here to work or play or study. I do have a problem with their coming round to my home of a Sunday to beg."
"Bizarre article. I overheard a couple of 'thugs' yelling about the football results in the most obtuse and ungrammatical manner, i may have to pen an article about the decline in the educational standards of this green and pleasant land.
Racial tension is certain to flare, optimism must have its limits. Tensions have been rising for a decade - in a boom, what do people think will happen in a very severe downturn? Venom directed at immigrants themselves is not only unpleasant it is also wasted bile that should be directed at the government. Though i suspect if people felt the government actually gave a shit about their concerns they would be less inclined to resort to abusing the immigrants themselves (or going to the BNP).
Are Poles cheap labour? I havent heard such a silly question for a long time. Why do people think Tony opened the doors? Because he was desperate for more social diversity and vibrancy?
I also have a suspicion that however bad the ravenous English racists get there will still be no shortage of people trying to come here."
"_AT_SocialistMike
Many share the simplistic, and rather insular, perception that all Poles in the UK are fleeing from desperate poverty in some quasi-Third World shithole.
Some are but the majority are capitalist opportunists rather than poor huddled masses. They follow the money. If they could get a bit more in France we wouldn't even be having this debate.
As i've said, I don't blame them, but don't go looking for some kind of proletarian solidarity."
"_AT_PaulMcLean - ""At what point does the prospect of self-parody become unattractive?""
SocialistMike's capacity for self-parody knows no limits. I'm hoping that he never achieves that elusive self-wareness as he's great for a cheap laugh.
Although clearly he is not much of a Socialist as his idea of improving the working and living conditions of the worst off in society by making them compete against immigrants for scarce resources that are about to become even scarcer in the coming months. A neo liberal positon if I ever saw one."
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"Writing an article on the basis of alleged third-hand hearsay is absurd, but the piece does raise several interesting points.
From 2004 New Labour permitted the free inflow of East European labour from the new member states of the EU into Britain, simply for the purpose of depressing British wages in a period of boom.
As Britain falls into recession, tensions over diminishing employment opportunities will inevitable arise. Two points should be made. First if Poles and others have established residence in the UK then they should not face employment discrimination on the basis of their ethnicity. Second, workers should struggle together for improvements in their well-being not fight against each other."
"_AT_JayR:

Actually mate, to achieve a level of fatuity comparable with this ridiculously overblown article, you'd first have to talk to a few people (or overhear some conversations in a pub or on a train), get a feeling that something was up, amalgamate these people into an invented friend, then invent a couple of ""thugs"" yelling about the results, then deduce somehow from this that any non-football fan (in whose camp you as author must obviously reside) was now in mortal danger of his/her (obviously ""her"" would be better as it allows us to really get the full measure of fear across) life."
Poles and their nasty Islamist religion which doesn't fit our way of life.
"So you're relatiing the words of a friend of yours who overheard something that someone's else's wife was told by her boss. We have several words for this in English, Aleksandra .....
Hearsay.
Anecdotal.
Worthless."
"robjmckinney
'Bottom' is the operative word for the nurses and carers who have been cleaning British bums for quite some time now, whilst those bottom of the pile Brits were out maxing their credit out at the shopping malls where other Poles served their lordly unermenschen selves.
PaulMcLean . As is wont in these columns. Talking Poles here. Have you ONE shred of evidence for this ?
MaidMarian
Might just fall into the 'not overtly 'category.
Danot
'Sounds more like the beginnings of a paranoid psychosis.'
Or it could be the beginning of the well tried and tested racism that the writer is referring to. Which in turn leads on to thuggish fascism which is 'what we fought the war for ! ' i.e. to end !
If you can't see that behind cheap labour was the upholding of profits for the rich, especially the Tory ( old and neu ) rich, and that this is an old method of theirs, as is the divide and rule of this kind of overt and covert racism, then best keep your myopia where it doesn't show. It was all very well to allow the cheap labour when it was lining your pockets. The greatest fault of government was to allow highly educated and skilled foreigners to languish behind the roles of waiters at tables instead of bringing them in to the wider economy to maximise the use of their skills to enhance the economy, a critical factor in the growth of successful economies, especially now and in the future. But no, those positions were reserved by the same 'elitists', the ones that wrecked the economy and who now crawl back into the safety of their country estates to let the rabble fight it out whilst they say 'Moi?' I had nothing to do with it, as they flip through the fat wad of Euros they exchanged stirling for whilst saying us ? Europe ? Never ? If you don't know the real enemy, you probably are one of the real enemy. They're the same ones that have stacked the odds against 'lower class' Brits in numerous ways well covered by the press in recent times. Now call me paranoid and confirm your class loyalty in my 'paranoid' ( you wish) mind.
OneTooMany
'over egging the cake '
Let's ( vainly) hope you're right. Like those who 'overegged' the effects of the 'crunch'.
SwiftyBoy
'Well congratulations Aleksandra, you've actually just made me think less of the admirable Polish people as a result of this ""Desperately Seeking Victimhood"" piece of pernicious nonsense.'
Well, congratulations SwiftyBoy. You were very Swift to find your justification.
CzarnyKot
'Dell just moved from Limerick to Lodz--the start of a trend?'
Of course yes. Same reason British companies and investors moved offshore ages ago. Cheaper, hard working reliable, skilled. That's where the money will follow.British youth would do well to keep a distance between themselves and what's going to predictably happen, if they want any chance to get jobs in other countries in the ten to fifteen years it will take to bring this backwater into the 21st century.
SocialistMike
Thank God, who probably exists, for a sane voice that can be heard, along with a few others, amongst the snapping dogs.
Bitterweed
True. Let's hope workers keep the real issue CLASS, not RACE, in the forefront !
harlequinmod
'The problem with Polish builders is not only the price, it's also the quality of and speed of their work, cheaper, better and faster.'
Ah ! Look at that. Now you've gone and spoiled it all !
qwerty99666
Indeed. And not to mention scaring off the immigrants of the future means no government is going to put Britannia together again as there will be no money for Broon's debt ( £100K per family already ! ), no money for the NHS, no money for education or pensions or defence, no money to keep up to speed on technology leaps required, therefore the dissolution of the 'united' kingdom altogether, unless they are already growing controllable-ageing clones in a lab somewhere, or the rich are just going to bump us all off and rely on robots ( with French and German accents naturally ). Well that's on hold for now anyway, the robot manufacturers have gone bust .
frankdreben
'Why aren't you a racist for coming to someone else's country, free-riding on their goods, taking their work and, to top it off, delegitimising their moral right and duty to reject you?'
Ever heard of the British Empire, colonialism ?"
"The economic downturn reveals the underlying resentment against immigration and not 'of' immigration.
This article is pitiful for a number of reasons.
Firstly, Lojek-Magdziarz's objections seem to hinge on the usual strand of Polish snobbery that 'we' are not 'cheap labour'. The underlying assumption that but for our history 'we' would be better than 'you'
Some Poles who see themselves as very 'kulturalny' resent being seen as outsiders having been neuroticaly obseesed with being so Western and more intelligent than those English they routinely describe as lazy and 'glupie'.
My wife is Polish and works in a cash exchange bureau, so if you you want the whole gamut of Polish gossip about how ugly British women are and how Poles look down their noses at Britain then I can provide it.
It must be depressing to have studied Polish philology at Jagiellonin University for 5 years only to work in Coffee Republic but the Polish education system is crap and everybody cheats.
On a PKS bus coming back from Ustriki Dolne on the way to Krosno I heard students saying the only thing they have learnt at university is how to drink and how to cheat in exams.
The reason so many relatively educated Poles 'had' to come to Britain was because their education is useless but gives them a sense of being something.
Usually how to make vast generalisations and dogmatic assertions without needing to consider evidence to the contrary or develop debating skills or techniques.
The result is a culture in which people opine with grandiose statements and florid language what is, in fact, utter drivel and fail to engage or listen with what others are actually telling them.
This is hardly conducive to developing good business skills and the kind of mentality that will help Poland develop economically. Thus meaning mass migration wouldn't be so necessary.
Secondly, Poles were admitted because they are cheap labour and to drive wages down and save the government having to do such tedious and expensive things such as invest in training programmes and apprenticeships.
A common complaint, apart from how stupid British people are to have an economy strong enough to give them employment, is how useless and spoilt they are.
If the average Briton had heard what Poles were saying about them, they might be tempted to write an article making vast generalisations about them and playing the 'lets play taking offence' card.
But that might say more about the writer than the real nature of the problem.
Let's face it:if Poles don't like it in Britain they can go back and, as someone who lives in Poland, I think they should come back where they belong and build Poland.
Or stop the whining and snobbery because it is easy to do so as an outsider and the stereotypes you here from ex-pats are somehat tedious
( eg the Poles stare at you, the customer service is shit, the women are fickle or gold diggers, the men can't dress very well, she's too hot for him, all Poles are quarrelsome snobs who thinks they're always correct, they are Catholic bigots, fanatics, etc etc yawn..........."
"Zdzislaw 12 Jan 09, 2:29pm

Excellent point.
Brown to avoid the 1978/9 winter of discontent removed any real chance of wage demand pressure.
The problem that the UK has is that it has still a Government that is so determined to cling to power that it would bankrupt the Nation [& may have ].
The cost of the prospective large scale redundancies particularly in low paying jobs in the distribution and services sector to the Benefits Agency will be out of all proportion to the NI & taxation paid as well as economic (rather than political) benefit.
Employers should and many will keep on good staff, silly not to do so.
But the cost of the unemployed will be enormous.
Given the cold weather suggesting swiming lessons might incur wrath from Health & Safety as well as CIF"
"Well, I just bhope it is true.
There are few enough jobs to go round - there will be 3m unemployed by the end of the year - so why not put native Brits first rather than economic migrants?
It's a disgrace if we dont."
"Wait for unemployment to really take off .I fear that you ain't seen nothing yet.
The fear is genuine."
"_AT_Undergroundman

Nice to know that Poles are exactly the same as us ;-)"
"I've never thought of Poles as a different ""race"". A different culture, yes, in that rather marginal different European culture sort of way, but never a different ""race"".
I have several Polish friends and a few Polish students. They all seem to get on famously here and the only time one has ever mentioned any ""discrimination"" was when she told off some hoodies for letting their dog shit on the pavement and they responded with cries of ""Go back where you came from, bitch!"". As they are unlikely to have been any more pleasant to an Englishwoman telling them off, it's not exactly evidence of a particular resentment of Poles."
"Lord Sumemrisle
You forgot 'bollox'."
You're right, Swifty, perhaps i should redraft it from a slightly different angle, but i just couldnt bring myself to invent a friend for rhetorical purposes even when taking the piss, its just too shameful, yet it seems to crop up every few weeks on CIF, some author talks of their 'friends' outrageous (and totally fictional) experience...
"When Poland joined the EU , Poland's old pals - Germany and France - said ""no Poles please!""
The UK government desperate for cheap labour said, ""Come over here""
And hundreds of thousands desperate to be cheap labour in the rich UK rather than dismal backwards Poland did just that.
The decision was purely economic on both sides.
Now the economics is different and Poles are no longer required.
Nobody was promised a job for life.
This is pure capitalism .
Having - according to your bio - spent your life in academia and journalism (with I suspect , a flair for creative writing) this exposure to the real world must be terrifying.
You'll get over it."
"Last year's line: Poles do not compete for jobs with British people - they just take jobs that Britons are too lazy or too greedy to do.
This year's line: Actually, Poles will be competing for jobs with British people, may be they always were... er, so what, are you racist or something?
It was less than a year ago that we were still being told that open immigration was bringing us ever lasting prosperity, with hard working foreigners paying the dole for ignorant and idle Brits... Now that times are suddenly and horribly tighter, I guess a new line was needed.
The sentimetns described - IFF described accurately - are ugly. But they stem from a situation created by progressive recklessness, and the unholy alliance between the fanatically pro-immigration left and the anything-to-cut-costs capitalist running dogs.
Not sure what the answer is. But the problem comes largely from listening too much to Guardian progressives in the first place."
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Waltz - that's becaue 'Polish' isn't a race. It is a nationality and an ethnicity, but not a race.
"_AT_roomwithaview:
What, you actually thought this badly put together piece of anecdotal tosh, along with its just-below-the-surface hysteria, was well written and/or well argued?
I'd have no problem at all with it if it made sense or had some connection with reality, but it starts with (I'm certain) third-hand hearsay, follows that up with a few conditionals based on presumption, and rounds the lot off with a scenario suggesting that some kind of Kristallnacht is just round the corner in Spalding or wherever numbers of ex-pat Poles congregate in these straitened times.
I've heard similar ""arguments"" made about immigrants getting preferential treatment on the council housing list, for example. You know the sort of thing - ""My mate's missus works for the council, and she said her boss told his secretary that he'd heard that being an immigrant got you more points than being British"" etc etc etc..."
Discrimination will be be followed by segregation, then apartheid and more immigration acts for the British survival.
"harlequinmod: ""The problem with Polish builders is not only the price, it's also the quality of and speed of their work, cheaper, better and faster.""
Such casual stereotyping - and typical of the ""migrant supermen are our superiors"" line taken by many.
Tell me: are they cheaper, better and faster than, say, black builders in Britain?
One would not make such a sweeping statement in favour of British workmen as against any migrant workmen, or white British against BME minorities. So why the casual stereotyping here? Ah, denegrating British in favour of immigrant - so that's okay then."
"I can't say I recognise a rise in resentment at all, and I have yet to hear immigrants to be singled out as scapegoats. Instead (much to my ever so pleasant surprise) it's been the wa..., er, bankers who have clearly been identified as greedy, untrustworthy see you next Tuesdays.
I haven't seen, heard, read anything about resentment against immigration. This article is on a par with yesterday's article by Francesca Segal who accused the UK of heading towards its very own Reichskristallnacht without any evidence.
Spokojne, Alex, Spokojne..."
"There's only one immigration story in Guardian-Town, and that's the discrimination one.
Fair play to Aleksandra for finding this solid source of revenue.
Plus, you're doing the one job that the fat, lazy, feckless, welfare-teat fed Brits REALLY cannot do. Moaning about what it's like to be an immigrant in this beknighted hellhole of a landfill site where the locals are uniquely vile - and getting paid for it. Result!"
"Aleksandra:

What? Is he obliged by the law of this country to employ a certain quota of eastern Europeans, or anyone else, for that matter?
I can understand that your friend was upset by what was said, but there is nothing criminal in that man's actions. He doesn't want to employ any eastern Europeans because for some reason he is prejudiced against them. While perhaps being unpleasant, that is not criminal."
I dont question the hardworking mentality of the Poles at all, in my experience this is supported by everyone that comes into contact with them. But, it leads me to think, if the Poles are such hard working, prime specimens of working people, 15 hour days, no breaks, great work, low salary expectations, great work ethic, why isnt the Polish economy booming? Why do they have to seek work in Britain? Just seems a tad odd.
"The level of immigration into the UK in the previous 11 years IS going to be an issue during the recession. It was all very well Labour inviting people to come here and work when work was plentiful, but somewhat different when a million or so native workers are going to lose their jobs. Even Hazel Blears has had the courage to raise this point and accept that Labour's immigration policy has/is about to badly backfire.
Somehow, I don't think Poles are likely to be the most resented as they appear to have adapted to the UK rather better than others. The best we can say is that, generally, British people are fairly tolerant of immigrants and the situation in the UK is likely to be rather better than some other countries who have a less welcoming tradition. That doesn't mean that there won't be problems for some - I'm afraid that's rather inevitable. The British people have been signalling to their Government for several years that the levels of immigration were a concern and were effectively told to 'shut up.' Now they're going to voice their opinions! Labour knows this, which is why it is running scared of the BNP.
Gordon Brown is parroting how he intends creating vast numbers of new jobs - the numbers seem to change on an almost daily basis. It would be interesting to know how he intends reserving these jobs for unemployed Brits - otherwise - if it is found that a very large percentage are taken by foreigners - they will just be adding grist to the BNP mill. The same applies to the 'golden handshake' announced this morning and the new apprenticeships announced last week (if any of this actually happens of course). Will the UK taxpayer be expected to subsidise employment/apprenticeships of unemployed economic migrants?
Unfortunately, many of our communities are now fractured into small ghettos of nationality, culture and religion and resentment has already built up. It doesn't make for unity in the face of adversity when communities were already divided before the recession struck.
I'm afraid Hazel Blears is right. The recession will lead to an increase in racial tensions."
"_AT_Underground Man
Nice riposte.
_AT_Olching
Happy to hear that you haven't noticed any bother. Impossible for me to know exactly what's goping on in the ""British Street"" (well, the Arabs have got a street so why not us?) but i'm not too surprised that the author has tended towards melodrama.
I've said this many times on these threads-- there are many stories here in Poland which would be of interest to at least some CiF readers yet CiF's resident Pole endlessly repeats the same old 'my living hell' bollocks. I'm not sure how much of that is her decision.......
If Polish people are hounded out of Britian by nasty racists then at least they won't have to worry about their kids going to school with blacks, Asians and the like."
"Pimlicom
""He doesn't want to employ any eastern Europeans because for some reason he is prejudiced against them. While perhaps being unpleasant, that is not criminal.""
Um, I think under EU law it is precisely that. Or perhaps its a civil offense rather than a criminal one, either way EU law surely says you can't discriminate in employment purely on nationality grounds within the EU.
Personally I think there are problems with this law, and I really don't like the EU, but its nevertheless the law and if one doesn't like it one should get it democratically changed (probably by leaving the EU) not ignore it.
Anyway in the absence of any solid evidence I tend to think this article is scare-mongering.
If and when the recession gets bad I fear that all racial tensions will rise, but the Poles will not be the primary victims, as they are white, culturally similar to the locals, and can very easily return to what is basically a first-world homeland if they absolutely have to. There are a lot of other groups who don't have any of those advantages, I tend to think they have greater reason to worry. Though on the other hand, those groups are probably better psychologically prepared for finding themselves in this situation, having been through it before."
"Let me get this straight....
A bloke tells his employee his views on Eastern Europeans. Said employee tells her husband. Who tells a shop assistant. Their conversation is overheard by your friend, who tells you. You write an article about it.
I'm sorry your friend was uncomfortable but to be honest i'm struggling to take you seriously. Given that your subject matter is unfair generalisation and prejudice againt EasternEurpoeans I think it is rather rich to base the entire piece on what is, essentially, gossip and generalisation.
Please don't interpret the views of one individual (that has been Chinese whispered by 4 others by the way) as some sort of threat to the safety of Eastern Eurpoeans in this country.
Is this article for real?"
"Well for once I have to agree with socialistmike.
The government encouraged mass immigration for various reasons, not least the greed of big business, and the immigrants will be scapegoated because of an economic disaster caused by the government and the banking industry."
"I'll be honest I used to deliver building materials all over the South-East. My experience with British builders was this, it was very much hit or miss, you either found them hardworking, or you found them disgruntled, difficult, rude or lazy.
The East European builders were never hit or miss, they might not be polite, but they didn't mess you around. They helped you unload the truck and you got back on your way, I remember having to wait at more than one site for a Moffat truck (the ones with a forklift on the back) because the builders there flatly refused to help unload it. At another site, I did a special run because the builders were pleading for the materials I arrived at 4.30pm on a Friday and guess what?...They'd gone home. I've got more stories like this if you want to hear them.
I employ British builders to work on my home but only local builders and I usually check to see if anyone's used them before. It's not a case of Polish supermen, it's a case of their still being too many cowboys out there. The one thing I did notice which might cheer you up, is that the supervisory postions (foreman) upwards were dominated by British builders."
"_AT_anyone

So, despite every newsmedia report since the crisis began laying the blame firmly at the feet of the banking system and government, this is something you and socialistmike are clever enough to see, but you're firmly convinced that the majority of the UK won't be.
Can you explain why?"
Whoops, _AT_anymore, not _AT_anyone. Sorry.
olching - Ah yes - but what about Polish bankers!
"_AT_LordSummerisle
I never said that.
If you don't think that tensions in this country are not going to get worse then you are living in cloud cooku land."
"harlequinmod
A reasonable answer, thanks for clarifying your first post, it was a bit general !
I have a few builder mates and aquaintances, and some of the stories are amusing, like the Polish roofer guy one of them met who couldn't get the dozen or so specific tiles needed for a roof repair so used some carpet tiles as an interim measure... nice !
But this sort of thing would cover any nationality of course... As I think I pointed out in my first post, anecdote has its place, but when all the lead article above the line cpontains is a set of suppositions based on a single second hand, overheard, anecdote, it is a bit much..."
"As a foreign teacher who registered to work in Eng & Wal in 1998, it is interesting that professionals like me are welcome, until such time as the local poulation can be enticed into doing the job. This hardly seems fair, does it?
Jobs in London, especially at entry level, were plentiful in London until such time as the London weighting was bolstered by 'Golden Hello' packages. I do not resent those who avail themselves of an opportunity, but my route to permanent employment has been rather different.
As someone who was forced out of an MA during an earlier financial crisis mismanaged by a British government, I then spent three and a half years working at a charitable organisation working with children with ASD and PMLD and for an ODA at a boarding school in Southern Africa, for the princely sum of £22k; that's £22k in total. On arriving back in Blighty in early 1998, I had anticipated some induction, CPD and advice. Frankly, apart for some rehashed input grudgingly given by one la,la,la in Inner London, I have had to arrange and/or pay for the training I require to remain competitive.
Since leaving London a few years ago, I have been effectively gazumped by Learning Support Assistants and unqualified classroom supervisors', even though I deliberately remained on the main payscale lest I scare off the cashstrapped. How exactly this squares with 'a world class education system' is anyone's guess?
Not only do most schools not offer me an interview but they don't even offer you the courtesy of a pro forma email response informing you of your misfortune. Indeed, it is interesting that even when I have been interviewed by schools when I am clearly the most experience candidate that I am simply the wrong nationality, although I gather that I am the right colour.
If this were otherwise the onus would be on prospective employers to disclose the caliber of professionals they interview for specialist posts. Schools are under no such obligation, nor are they bound by employment law, apparently. For example, innumerable schools disregarded my express written instruction on an appplication form not to contact my character referee prior to interview. Predictably, they did what they were allowed to do; unfortunately, he responded in the way that any sane, sensible and secure professional would (although he was on the point of using a few shorter words when speaking to me later- before he stopped talking to me altogether).
In my last school in London I had to cover for my Head of Department within a week, by chairing a complicated multi-agency meeting, with no prior knowledge or experience. My immediate predecessor and successor, both British were allowed 'lead in' periods, which rather begs the question: why are such courtesies not afforded to foreigners?
I am amused therefore by those who lambast the teaching profession in this country, as they do not have any clear idea of the reality in the sort of 'challenging circumstances' which professionals like me face in schools where very few native teachers worked willingly. I am equally amused by the obsession with 'incompetence', especially as expressed by Ofsted inspectors who have never had to work in a departmental office that is two parts office, two parts classroom, two parts triage room, two parts meeting room, one part storage cupboard and one part canteen.
Not being Britsish I refuse to kowtow to the accepted belief that teachers must just grin and bear it. I will be damned if I keep silent about Ofsted not doing as much as the real professionals to look out for the 'ps & qs' of this world; I will not pretend that my repeatedly paying for expensive materials and CPD when others can delve in the public purse at will, with all the grace of starving pigs; and, lest I forget, I will never acknowledge the right of any body- at local or national level- to spy on or otherwise regulate my private behaviour, when that is in line with the law as understood at EU level.
With hair and skin colour that look more Arabic than the avergae Brazilian, I have noticed a fresh spike in the number of times I am referred to as a 'black bastard' by my neighbours. One wonders when government ministers tacitly encourage such behaviour how long it will be before those who spit in my general direction as I pass will take it upon themselves to be even less backward at coming forward? My health may not be great, and my nerves might be frayed but going sofly into that good night is not my style. I trust that others will be so minded as we foreigners are scapegoated for the mindless greed and moronic decisionmaking by many British natives, particularly at leadership level in business and government!"
"_AT_anyone
You said this.

Why do you not think the majority of the UK are not well aware of where responsibility for the crisis lies?

Perhaps they will worsen, but I don't think it will be by any appreciable amount. You seem determined to believe the people of the UK will scapegoat immigrants and I simply don't see that as inevitable."
pangar - do you feel better for getting that off your chest?
Since we're on the topic of discrimination.... there are many types of transaction (getting clothes repaired, finding a wedding venue) in which Mrs. Czarny Kot tells me to keep my mouth shut because if they know i'm a foreigner they will charge more. Bloody racists.
"Is this a parody?
I'm English and know how to write English grammatically without loads of unnecessary commas. Is this woman stealing space on CIF that I could be filling with eloquent and referenced analysis?"
I don't believe Pangar is a real person.
"The patronising condescension at 5pm on CiF is easily shrugged off. The drink and drug fuelled aggression, particularly at the weekends, is another matter. It also beggars belief that the UK seems blithely unaware of the fact that citizens of EU states have the right to challenge this sort of abuse. One wonders when the UK made to answer for these endemic and systemic abuses? Not before time is the answer.
Incidentally, I am perfectly willing to enter into debate on this and relkated issues but my patience for humouring hectoring bullies is growing very thin. Harold Pinter, himself not unaware of what if feels like to be abused for no good reason, was known to be equally willing, in extremis, to split a fat lip or two."
I have to say and I think many other posters must feel the same; there seem to be no editorial standards on CIF, none at all. It is interesting to read different viewpoints but only if they have some academic credibility. I get better shit down the pub.
"marimonster - Yes.
It must be a wind up."
Out of interest Pangar, which utopia are you from? Before I carry on can I express gratitude on behalf of the British people that you remain altruistically in this wilderness for the benefit of our people. Are you too a misunderstood soul like Pinter? Please tell us more of your sacrifice.
"That sounds more anti-white than anti-immigrant.
It seems her job was to diversify the company and hiring white people, even if they were from another country, did not fill that diversity requirement."
"Ms AL-M
I hope and trust that the Equality Manger sees her non-job swept off into the dustbin of history, never to return. God knows what the ""employment"" pages of the Grauniad will look like in a couple of years time when the dust settles. Thinner I hope.
As someone pointed out already you really are engaged in a premature search for victim-hood. Stop it. I doubt if people care too much where productive workers come from - and productive workers will stand the best chance of survival in the difficult months to come. Poles are without doubt a large and productive segment of the immigrant population - number 4 by size in Q4 of 2006, just ahead of Pakistan and Bangladesh. By contrast with the immigrant groups from the sub-continent Poles were highly active economically - 85% employed and only 11% inactive compared to an average figure of 78% and 18% resp. By comparison our friends from Pakistan and Bangladesh languish towards the bottom of the pile with about half of their number inactive - i.e staying at home and living off the state. Those in employment earned substantially less than average. In other words Pakistanis and Banladeshis (by origin) represent an almost certain financial loss to the state.
Doubtless these figures will have changed and will change in the ongoing recession. One reads already of a partial return of Poles and other E Europeans to their homelands. Unfortunately this will not be the case with our friends from Pakistan and Bangladesh who will remain to draw proportionately larger shares of benefits from an increasingly indebted public purse.
NuLab's immigration non-policy is as mad as their economic lunacy. It can no longer be afforded and the maddening thing is that this was perfectly obvious 5 years ago. It will take the Tories at least a generation to sort the mess and it will probably involve repatriation of one form or other."
"_AT_LordSummerisle

I'm not determined to believe anything, I just know that the tensions where I live are immense.
I expect that this anger will be expressed at the ballot box in June, with the BNP getting 10-15% of the vote and UKIP about 5-10%. It will be a vote mainly directed against our political class and its economic policies rather than any bigotry, although the rise of militant Islam will be a factor too."
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"pangar
Sorry to hear of your circumstances. I know that many schools now recruit Newly Qualified Teachers instead of experienced ones on cost.
Much of your grieance seems to revolve around issues not directly related to being employed as a visitng worker.
A few notes:
*I would not expect any government to pay for a Masters these days.
*I would jump at £22k a year. that is what you said wasn't it ?
*Anyone calls you a b***** bastard again, you're more than welcome to give them a fat lip from about 99.99% of your fellow bloggers here myself included."
"I agree with AstroFungalInfection that the influx of East Europeans has certainly upped the quota of lookers in the UK. Gives the indigenous population something to aspire to.
And I do think (speaking as one who works alongside 3 Poles) that generally employers will want to take on the people who can do the job best, more or less regardless of where they come from.
Here's one thing though - if discrimination is such an 'evil' - how come it's OK for feminists and the government to practise it on men? Does that mean discrimination is only evil in certain situations? Or that it doesn't matter if men have an evil visited upon them?"
"After 40 years of allowing mass immigration to undercut the working class wage, to cover up government incompetence in education and training, and giving those leaders of industry a slave workforce that doesn't speak the language or know their rights, the Poles are the scapegoats?
There is only one group of Rt ""dis-honourable"" people to blame for what is happening in this country, those who are currently not affected by the recession because:
a) their jobs are safe
b) their expenses and homes are paid for by us
c) immigration doesn't bring competition for their jobs
In the words of Rolf Harris, Can yer tell what it is yet?"
"MaidMarian
It used to be 'it's going to turn ugly' when you spoke about threads on eastern Europe before, but on this thread you say 'it is going to be nasty'. Somewhat repetitive, but clear improvement terminology wise.
I agree with you - some Poles are stunningly handsome, and in my experience are perfect lovers.
I was blessed having Poles in my company during recent New Year celebration. Maybe I am especially lucky, but I never met nasty Pole so far."
"I strongly comment Alexandra to read this article from UNHCR
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,QUERYRESPONSE,POL,4562d8b62,45f1479834,0.html"
"pimlicom:
>""He doesn't want to employ any eastern Europeans because for some reason he is prejudiced against them. While perhaps being unpleasant, that is not criminal.""
Yes, it is criminal. It violates EU freedom of labour movement and the Race Relations Act. See regs.ttp://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/DiscriminationAtWork/DG_10026667"
"Sorry, cut&paste messup
Pimlicom:
>""He doesn't want to employ any eastern Europeans because for some reason he is prejudiced against them. While perhaps being unpleasant, that is not criminal.""
Yes, it is criminal. It violates EU freedom of labour movement regs and the Race Relations Act. See http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/DiscriminationAtWork/DG_10026667"
"""The Observer newspaper reports an investigation found Manchester-based firm TNS Knitwear was paying illegal workers less than the minimum wage.""
""Some workers were caught being paid £3 an hour, by an undercover journalist.""
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7822902.stm
Artificially create a low wage market, then everyone wants to pay less..."
"'I get better shit down the pub.'
So, go there then. I doubt if if it will improve your line of argument or bring out any hidden social graces. Why do people like you think the rest of the world owes you an expression of gratitude? You certainly do not have some sort of divinely conferred right to dictate to others the limits to their right to freedom of expression, as long as they are not verging into B Manning or J Woss territory.
Instead of scapegoating foreigners like a school yard bully, it might be better if a note of reality was introduced to how Britain runs its finances. Some thought should also be given to an end being put to this ludicrous poodle routine in the shadow of the US pitbull, less you attract yet more p*ssed off foreigners hell bent on exacting revenge."
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"Is it discrimination to consider citizens first for jobs that they are suitable?
I thought the whole point of immigration was to fill vacancies when British people could not be found to do the work. Not to compete directly against suitable local candidates.
Our openness during the boom partly helped unemployment in Poland decrease by half. Should be expected to help umemployment in Poland, when our unemployment is going up?"
"_AT_ pangar
Instead of scapegoating foreigners like a school yard bully, it might be better if a note of reality was introduced to how Britain runs its finances
I subscribe that one.
_AT_ Lovelondon
Our openness during the boom partly helped unemployment in Poland decrease by half. Should be expected to help umemployment in Poland, when our unemployment is going up?
You are also right in that line of thought. However, all these factors have a natural relation of cause and effect: if employment rises in the UK then automatically immigrants will start to come in increasing lower levels. After all, the unemployment will affect them too..."
"tommyjimmy
It's the eternal CiF conundrum. Sadly, have you seen how few comments some really well observed and written articles get ? I mean, for instance Conor Foley wrote about some less controversial overseas regions with deeply fascinating socio-economic/political issues (as well as the middle east) and was getting maybe ten or twelve responses...
It's no argument for bad writing (which this is) but, maybe, as with rolling news, the timsecales and economic criteria rule out the requisite preparation research/thought/analysis..."
"TugaVic: if employment rises in the UK then automatically immigrants will start to come in
There is no natural law that decrees that borders shall not operate, and the natural self-preference of the natives shall be muddied by race-crazed liberals, and cast aside. It is one of two things, and perhaps a mix of them, which creates this toxic exception:-
1. There is, supposedly, a single universal solution to all social, moral and political questions, and humanity must realise this in its local manifestation. So human diversity becomes an obstacle, and what differentiates men from one another must be eliminated.
2. Money.
Either way, it leaves the antis - those who do not understand the absolute moral right of the natives to live sovereign and free - with a truckload of egg on their face.
I urge you to think from first principles., and here's a clue: the first principle isn't ""fairness"" or ""equality"" or ""liberty"". It's the right to life."
"tommyjimmy
'Forensic shredding' is an oxymoron."
"The failure to plan properly is the fault of the British government. The feeding frenzy fuelled by ludicrous levels of borrowing is the fault of the British government. The ridiculous waste of public money on flashy hospitals and academies rather than enhancing the services on offer is the fault of the British government. The failure to dovetail the needs of employers with the aspirations of ordinary teenagers throughout the land is the fault of...etc
So, who is to blame? Let's just blame immigrants, and hope none of them from the EU ask for a ruling on what is likely to happen next. There is, incidentally, a lesson to be learnt from the lesson served up in building sites throughout Poland at present. For years they were exploited by bullying, deceitful and racist Irish employers and now they have put up signs saying: 'No Irish need apply'.
Britain used to do likewise to the Irish in the fifties for no good reason. And as for those who drone on about the war, get your facts right; the Irish served in their tens of thousands in that war, only to be equally ignored in Britain and Ireland for their troubles. As for the BNP, I just love bursting their balloon. For example, hundreds of years before the Anglo Saxons foisted themselves on Britain, African troops served on Hadrian's Wall to keep the barbarians at bay. Now, who wants to harp on about the past?"
"Oh, everybody knows there's a long standing quarrel between Poles and Brits over who can lay claim to having the blandest national cuisine. Not surprising it could turn ugly.
Seriously, the anecdote above does raise some interesting questions. Not only ""is equality manager a real job?"" but also why the boss in question felt so free to openly express his disdain for the idea of equality of opportunity ONLY with regards to East Europeans. One can imagine that he would've hesitated to be so contemptuous discussing any other group or groups.
Pimlicom says that the man's hostility towards east europeans is merely ""unpleasant but not criminal."" I wonder if he would regard a refusal to hire immigrants from any other background as only ""unpleasant but not criminal.""
And wow, a post by Underground Man that I broadly agree with. Either he's losing his sentimentality about Poland the poor wee country of humble, kind church-going serfs set upon by evil, decadent Western/British stag-night revelers, or I'm reading him wrong...
U-man, regarding your list of stereotypes of Poles...I see yer point, but seriously, if you ever find a single Pole who ISN'T a bigoted Catholic fanatic, you might want to let the scientific community know, they may wish to conduct tests and so forth to verify his authenticity..."
"And India is, I suppose, simply full of curry eaters and the Chinese, by that law of reckoning, always see red. This is the twenty first century, and some stars will rise and others will continue to fade.
Poland has already stripped 1,900 jobs from Ireland because Dell, on balance, felt that they would be better served relocating many services from Limerick to Lodz. Sniggering into your warm beer in a plastic Irish bar in the UK at such a story will not protect you from the likelihood in the decades ahead that India will strip even more jobs from here, unless of course more British based sweatshops can be opened on the sly."
"what you are hearing are the nasty whingings of the British feckless classes - a group of people who have been mollycoddled by their nanny state for decades....so much so that they share a culture of entitlement, a belief that they are owed the world merely for being British or because they are being exploited by some nebulous capitalist class....and who don't understand the value of hard work, personal responsibility and good service.
The Polish influx has been a wake-up call for them - and a very healthy one at that. Despite the whinging, many have, for the first time in their lives, been forced to compete, and in those old infamous words ""get on their bikes""
But I wouldnt worry too much about them. The political culture that nurtured them is mostly dead - and the racists on the right are nowhere near as vociferous as they are in europe.
The Eastern Europeans in Britain are generally much appreciated and welcomed, in good times, and I suspect and hope, in bad."
"pangar
Have you been smoking mate ?"
... with farga ?
"pangar:
I've thougt that as member of EU I could work as a teacher...My teaching qualifications haven't been recognized in UK. There are plenty of jobs at schools... Well... Nobody can choose a place of birth, fortunately some of us can choose place to live (however it is sometimes difficult to find an optimal one). Sometimes you need to choose the lesser of two evils... Some of us have to start from scratch again..."
"Bitterweed
A bit late, but Happy New Year."
"It is sad that it is taking this country so long to come to terms with the realities which are now being shaped. Britain needs to regain its competitive edge. It simply will not do to rely on far too many services, including the discredited- literally- bankers in the city. As ever, education will be the key.
Now, that said, let's just allow the same dreary schlock-meisters to spout the sort of drivel that they seem to glory in, from the cradle to the grave!"
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Hi Staybryte, likewise ! How goes it mate ? Got any jobs round your way, there's fuck all here right now ;-<
"Alles ist Verrukt Liebchen. And it's all shite an' all. I'm on the sausage roll as of today and I spent an interesting hour this morning in a thriving and disturbingly well-appointed dole office. :-(
Drag yourself up here for a pint if you need any consolation. Sweet Jesus knows I could do with some. Both pints and consolation that is. :-)
But, then again, we have our health etc (or at least I sincerely hope we both do), and something'll turn up, so grateful for mercies and all that and all the very best mate."
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"Bitterweed:

Yeah, and I know I'm a hypocrite cos I'm far more inclined to spend a couple of minutes thinking up insults for a Bindel thread than I will some considered, reasonable response to Conor's latest report from the arse end of nowhere.
But there are limits, and too many pieces just feel like the editors have decided to put the village idiot up on stage for us to mock. Briefly fun, but not really satisfying.
Ta very much for the mention of Orchestra Baobab the other day – God knows how I haven't heard of them before. Something in return."
"frankdreben
Blimey ! Can't think why your post was deleted, but I've given up on trying to figure out the logic ( or lack ) surrounding deletions. Anyhow, my remarks re imperialism/colonialism were because that's precisely what happened . You don't have to go India/ Africa, just as far as N. Ireland would do.And I notice that slipping seamlessly from Brit to English . That fluidity is always a cause of wonder to me. 21st Century Schizoid, Man ! I'm all for self determination for the English. Get rid of the crown and the hangers on who support it ( I know, seems contradictory at first sight ), go for a Republic and then a loose Federation with Scotland, Wales and Ireland in a European Commonwealth and your self determination is close at hand. Just have to get over the Tory brainwashing and oust those neo-con tossers from the cowed psyche first.
Don't think we see eye to eye on this though somehow. Still, before the English can be emancipated from centuries of humiliation at the hands of foreign invaders who till this day hold sway by dint of their land ( means of production ) ownership , they will remain confused puppets easily pointed at any 'enemy' manufactured by puppeteers who have led them a merry dance for so long, to the great amusement of these lords and ladies grandiloquent.
batz
Churchill spoke of ' the English Race', which was no more ( possibly less ) a race than the Polish people are a race. In legal terms though xenophobia is a misnomer and discrimination on grounds of ethnic origin is .... racism ! Incidentally , whether by blacks, browns, yellows, pinks, reds or whites ( or any colours left out ) !
SwiftyBoy
No, I agree it's not well written or presented, but the subject matter has been of concern to me far longer probably than it has been her.And yes, I'm well aware of the power of the innuendo you illustrate.
Facts : Britain is middling in terms of the number of immigrants compared to the rest of Europe, surprising in view of our part of the world having imposed ourselves on so large a portion of the globe ( from whence cameth our wealth ). When these anomalies arise why do concerned local residents not challenge their councils openly and vociferously until they get an explanation. They might solve the problem that way and they would be fully in their rights I would expect, to challenge the council with fomenting racism if they did not come up with an explanation. That would sharpen the attention of the council drones I'm quite sure. Or maybe it's more useful to leave it as myth and rumour. I'm quite sure the BNP stooges get more mileage out of it that way.
joseph1832
Here's a surefire test. If it means someone is making more money , or saving themselves money ( which equates to the former ) it will be done. If utilising Brit workers will achieve this objective it will be done. If not you will find foreign workers getting the job. Or are you suggesting that foreign workers are utilised in a charitable fashion ? Let me remind you that in terms of charity, the great British public are half as generous as the Americans and the poorer Brits are twice as charitable as the richer Brits, just to focus your thinking a moment.
JayReilly
You're forgetting how Brits feel it their God given right to go and get work wherever they want, or to live anywhere that takes their fancy, but to want their own little island just for themselves. Now when this economy is floundering and the next wave of British workers ( including builders ) go to get work in France or Germany, or further afield , are you going to feel a bit hypocritical. No, course not, it's your God given right to feel self-important and special ( that civilising mission of the English race, or it's offshoot siblings ,again ).
Reading through some of the later posts eg MaidMarian and particularly marimonster and checking the recommends is ....well, revealing .The sarcasm is the giveaway of the really bitter racist marimonster ! You on that BNP list yet ? Let me suggest if not, it's only a matter of time.
veryniceperson
'It will take the Tories at least a generation to sort the mess and it will probably involve repatriation of one form or other.'
I'm quite sure a lot of those farmers and businessmen who wanted the cheap foreigners to line their wallets with were Tories in the first place. And when you talk repatriation do you mean that every Brit around the globe is going to be brought back here ? Where the heck are they all going to live ? Even after the bulk of the Polish workers have decided to sod this lot for a game of soldiers !"
"roomwithaview
You don't actually know any poor, working class English people very well do you ? There are plenty of them. You imply we can all go to France or Germany, would love to: France, although in dire economic straits also and has been for most of the last ten years, has almost three times the available land per capita. I fancy that comparative open space and freedom. The EU commands upon the French government, that providing I fulful certain work quotias (which the UK doesn't have by the way, the French being particularly big on protectionsism), I satisfy those laws, I can just go there and live if I want. I might be able to. But I just can't afford to sell up and set up. So I look for work here, warehouses, factories, offices,... not much going on. Plenty of other guys looking for these jobs. A lot for thefrom Poland, Hungary, Somalia, Nigeria...
This is my fault because I was born here ? I can't get a job ?
Tip: you want to in some way useful be in politics or policy making, here, in the UK ? Then get some focus."
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"roomwithaview
Im not quite sure where your angry little rant came from but i will try to respond politely. Also, if i have said something you think either wrong or bigoted, please use the blockquote function, its very easy to use.
""You're forgetting how Brits feel it their God given right to go and get work wherever they want, or to live anywhere that takes their fancy, but to want their own little island just for themselves. Now when this economy is floundering and the next wave of British workers ( including builders ) go to get work in France or Germany, or further afield , are you going to feel a bit hypocritical. No, course not, it's your God given right to feel self-important and special ( that civilising mission of the English race, or it's offshoot siblings ,again ).""
Im not talkingabout Brits working and living abroad, that is for other countries to manage. If the Spaniards decide they want no more Brits then thats unfortunate but its their country. If the Greeks change the law so that only English people who speak fluent greek can enter, then again, its their country. People all over the world like to go and live where they think they will get the best life, not just Brits, thats why we have millions of immigrants in the country, it is common to human nature. I havent asked for special rights for Brits abroad have I? You should try to make your rants more accurately directed, who knows, you might even have something interesting to say."
"Well I have experience immigrant discrimination.
Here are some ""true"" personal examples:
1. I approach someone in the street hand out flyers and ask them who their boss is because I might like to do it. I get told that ""he doesn't know who his boss is"" and get a cold reception. Its happened quite a few times. Its like saying ""jobs only people of my own nationality need apply, no locals"".
2. I see on Gumtree a job advertised as ""job for polish person"", it was removed by the afternoon.
3. The local Post Office and Independent Supermarket only seems to employ people of their own nationality, or religion. Every 2 months a new person pops up who can't speak english and only talks in the language of the manager. No vacancy was advertised outside.
The list goes on, I believe that alot of Jobs are going word of mouth to people of the same nationality without being probably advertised for the local population. I've only seen one situation where a British was employed in a foreign run business.
These are the ""real"" reason why people get annoyed.
If you want smooth tensions, don't set up a business and only employ people of your own nationality .. Its discrimination too. You can't have it both ways."
"As a British migrant to Hungary I wanted to contribute to this stream earlier, but the Guardian server seemed to discriminate against my dirty Eastern European server yesterday and wouldn't connect properly. Must be a racist server.
And after reading some of the comments above I'm happy I didn't get involved. I thought that the Grauniad was the paper of choice for lefties and progressives but some of these commentators seem to be secret Daily Maul readers.
I would like to address the issue of what we think of when we refer to 'Eastern' Europe. Calling countries 'Eastern' seems to imply a fundamental difference to us 'Westerners'. Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary really aren't that different from the UK (for example; we aren't a completely honky/white-bread nation in Hungary, we have Oriental, Middle Eastern, South Asian, South/Central American and African people here, some of them are 3rd generation descendants of migrants) and therefore aren't Eastern Europe. I would like to propose that the borders of East and West be drawn on religious grounds i.e nominally Catholic/Protestant countries=Western Europe, nominally Orthodox Christian/Islamic countries=Eastern Europe.
_AT_everyone taking pot-shots at Poland's domestic political situation.
I know many Poles (living in the UK, Sweden, Germany, Hungary, Finland and Poland) who voted out the worst half of the racist, uber-Catholic, bigot twins who were running the country about a year ago. Many of these more enlightened Poles had lived, worked and studied in the more progressive parts of Europe (UK, Germany and Scandinavia) and were ashamed that the older generation still held to the racist, anti-semitic, homophobic views embodied by the 'Twins of Evil'. They had benefitted from living in more progressive (in terms of race/faith/sex relations at least) countries.
_AT_the editors. When are you going to have more articles about the A10 countries in the Grauniad? I'm getting bored of all these American centred blogs and articles. Are we Europeans, or just the poodle-bitches of the Yanks?"
"Bitterweed
Sorry about your jobless situation. In the same boat through injuries myself. Getting screwed left right and centre by my Tory council though I get the sixty quid a week JSA ( less transport to sign on ), when they don't cut that off and then restart it ( hides you from the long term jobless list i.e covers up more gov lies ! ). They took NI from me the whole time I was working and now after being f_AT_cked up by capitalist exploiter shite who cut staff in a heavy work job so I had to do two people's work for three years till I walked out, too late ! Ops and all haven't helped with the ultra shite NHS farcical save the money for the rich approach. Now I live in pain and discomfort, down quite a bit as I've always loved my job. I'll have to retrain , but the best they can offer is the Learn Direct f_AT_cking computer farce. They say they'll be cutting my JSA in March, even though there should still be at least Eight grand of what I actually paid in left. ( I've been looking for work since August last year. Seems no-one wants a cripple ). So DWP fiddles me , the Council fiddles me and there's no legal aid to protect myself with. Sad innit. But does GB or his tosser pals in cushy street want to swap places ( I know his job is tough, but I'd be willing to do it... for the good of the country you understand ! I mean it would be hard to do it worse you have to admit. I'm sure I could swing you, and some of my mates pushing the bendiness of their cards to snapping point , while waiting to see if they'll still have a job next week, a job when he swaps with me, for fairness sake and all. Keep in touch if he takes up the offer.
I was talking France , Germany for the kids for the future for jobs. There aren't likely to be any here unless we have a revolution first ( hopefully a peaceful one, but you can't, at least I can't trust the toffs further than I can dribble ). France sounds nice though. I take your word for it. I've been to Italy and it's great. Uno problemo. I donna speeka the lingo !
It's not just me that needs focus, but the mawsters will do all they can to see that there are issues to divide any focus. That's always been their way.
As for the foreign workers. If they're legal and they get the job ahead of me I am in solidarity with them and will not accept discrimination against them, but I will expect the same rules applied by the French, German , Spanish , Italian employers and will expect the workers and organised labour in those countries to feel the same. I have a dream.... By the way. It has been said that making things difficult for foreign ( EU ) workers ( especially now ) is stupid as they will then stick like glue if they know that they will battle to get established again ( since it is a fair investment in time, money and effort to get set up ), whereas if the economy is fluid they will go back to their country of origin through the bad times and come back when things pick up. Maybe we should start growing up and accept the world is changing and that dinosaurs and dinosaur thinking is going extinct. Adapt or die !
frankreben
Too bad I never got to read your latest insult. Ah well ! Always next time.
JayReilly

Hope it's worked this time. It's like wheel of fortune !
As for the rest of your rant,... well, as my daughters would say: 'Wotever'. ( Sorry , just tired at the mo.Thing about Europe is, if it's going to become a federation, like the USA, with federal laws as you describe, fine, but if it's a pick and choose so your country only wins it's not going to work is it ? Compromise is when you don't always get exactly what you wanted, but in the interest of fairness you have to give a bit. So if there's a policy with Greeks insisting on fluency then they would have to accept that surrounding states would require them pass a fluency test in their languages before being allowed to enter i.e they would have to be tossed out of the federation or become the most liguistically gifted population on earth, in effect. It will be a bloody good thing when employers here are forced to treat workers according to EU laws. They're getting away with gross exploitation by their pick and choose methods and damaging both workers and the economy by it, not that lord muck on toast Mandelson seems to be much bothered."
Renegade?
Think it means we'll return to the age-old tradition of buccaneering, high seas piracy, invading other countries, supressing the natives and making them play cricket?
"Renegade - an individual who rejects lawful or conventional behaviour.
Our tax-haven City of London has ensured that GB is already a fiscal renegade, so leave or stay, stick or twist - it won't really change anything."
It's just Guardian scaremongering. Pay no attention.
This is about democracy. We need a vote on continued membership of the EU. Let's trust the British people. Let's bring back sovereignty from unelected commissioners in Brussels to elected representatives in our own parliament.
"The British people have been badly misinformed. What was it, 300 blatant lies about the EU told by the Sun and Daily Mail and Daily Express?
You cannot have a viable democracy without a well-informed electorate."
"Exactly
The level of lying about the EU in the UK press amounts to criminal activity."
"I'm sure your views are widely held. Which, as any European knows, merely represents the rank ignorance of the British, or is that just the English.
The Commission is merely a civil service. Decisions are taken by elected represenattives in the Council of MInisters, Heads of government and European Parliament. The latter being eleced on a pr basis not the biased first past the post much favoured by the Brits.
But then for a country that is a mixture of 'elected dictatorship' in Lord Hailsham's words and a feudal monarchy such democracy does not register.
Of course the UK is not going to leave the EU as John Cridland described the other day. In addition, UKIP will work very hard for the UK NOT to leave. Being MEPs is their sole source of income.
You're simply being would up by deceitful politicians after your vote and a wage they cannot derive otherwise and rubbish newspapers (a tautology if there ever was). Get real."
Thanks for the link.
You're welcome.
"Forget about the sovereignty argument.
The EU gives a useful scapegoat for unpopular but necessary regulation on tax or environment.
It's also far more progressive than the UK on the environment or labour regulation etc.
A significant volume of UK trade is with the EU.
All the faff around sovereignty is hot air. Forget about it. MPs have no sovereignty over their own parliament because everything's run from the centre - get exorcised about that, not the EU."
"If there is to be a vote we need people to be educated first so they know a few basic facts about how the EU works.
If they aren't many will exercise their vote based on fundamental misconceptions such as the widespread but wholly incorrect belief that the Commissioners have sovereignty."
I think you will have your work cut out with Agnselfiz, the Daily Mail seem to have contaminated his/her cognitive processes already.
"The EU is more democratic than any other international organisation we belong to. We have choice in electing MEPs and the final say in ""Brussels"" goes to our elected government in the European Council.
Outside the EU we would still have human rights rules set by the ECHR, our defence policy would still be defined by our membership of NATO, we would still have our trade policy set by the WTO and many other laws limited by various UN treaties.
Through the EU, we've supported democracy in Eastern Europe thanks to the UK-led policy of enlargement. And look at Norway, even outside the EU they have to enact 70% of EU legislation and they have no say in any of it. Even their own government admits this is less democratic than being in the EU.
We live in a complex world of limited autonomy and sovereignty. Our membership of the EU increases our influence in this world and is more accountable than almost any of the other organisations we are in, with far more tangible benefits.
The entire EU budget is less than 1% of GDP, and our net contribution is even less than that, costing a fraction of the trading benefits of the single market. Not to mention the advantage of having a peaceful transition to democracy in most of Eastern Europe thanks to the UK-led policy of enlargement.
Even outside, Norway and Switzerland have to pay in more than they get out as part of their treaty arrangements.
If the UK is really concerned with the economic benefits of trade, we should not be isolating ourselves but campaigning to increase the areas covered by the single market, which would be a huge boost to our trade,
The rest of the EU makes up 50% of our trade. Whereas we make up less than 10% of trade for the rest of the EU, and no European country depends on us for more than 10% of its trade. So we need the rest of the EU more than they need us and if we decided to leave and tried to renegotiate our trading relationship, we would be the ones negotiating from a position of weakness.
Last year We exported more to Sweden than to India, more to Poland than to Australia, more to Italy than to China and about the same to Germany as to the US. Our trade to all those European countries grew too, and by negotiating as a single trading bloc we are able to get better terms of trade with the rest of the world.
We actually have considerable influence over the direction of EU development. We have successfully pushed the single market and EU enlargement.
By leaving we would lose that influence and weaken our trading position. It's very hard to see how we would be better off."
"If Britain leaves Europe, we will become a renegade without economic power
If Britain doesn't join the Euro, we will become a renegade without economic power.
Yip, we've heard those same voices before.
Were they right the last time?"
"We're a deeply divided country though.
Scotland ,Wales - would they vote to leave the EU?
Many of those who want to quit the EU and think we could thrive alone, also happen to think the embodiment of the perfect democracy is represented in a FPTP elected ,Westminster Tory majority. You trust your future to those people?"
Actually, there are no Westminster tories in Scotland (perhaps 1, no more) and few in Wales. But just like England, those nations rejected AV too. It has nothing to do with the electoral system, it has to do with the fact that because they are outside London and the South East of England, they are largely ignored, business is difficult and EU grants subsidise many. I think Scotland and Wales would leave the UK before they would leave the EU.
"I checked.
1 : a deserter from one faith, cause, or allegiance to another
2 : an individual who rejects lawful or conventional behaviour
If we leave we will not be joining another - we are already in the UK. What is lawful or conventional in being part of a union falling apart at the German seams?"
"If we leave we will not be joining another ...
I could concur with some of the eurosceptic arguments until they make with the sovereignty bullshit. We are not a sovereign state, we are a US client state. Our foreign policy - see little sir echo Hague - is determined in Washington's state department and our economic policy - see little sir echo King - is determined by the Fed and Wall Street. Hilary Clinton snaps her fingers and the Foreign Office jumps. Bernanke introduces QE and Sir Mervyn trails after his master.
Moreover in a globalized world where capital is mobile and international and politics is national, bond and currency markets effectively hold a veto over decisons made by national parliaments. The sight of various nation states scrambling after inward investment in a race to the bottom and tailoring their policies to the requirements of highly mobile global corporations rather undermines the notion of 'sovereignty'.
Eurosceptic thinking is effectively stuck in a mid-20th century paradigm of discrete national economies, the cold war, and Anglo-American hegemony. We no longer inhabit that world, but that doesn't stop this sentimental yearning for its re-birth, a re-birth which will never come.
Like I never tire of saying. Scratch a eurosceptic and you'll find an Atlanticist/Americophile. Next stop NAFTA."
"And the EU-ropean paradigm isn't similarly outdated? And the yearning for the eurozone to function isn't equally sentimental and futile?
Personally I'd favour an Anglo-German-Dutch union and the rest of the continent can fuck off (with the possible exception of the Danes) but I'll take American client state over satrap of the EUSSR any day."
Every nation is a client state of the most dominant economic power of the moment, in some form or other. For the past 50 odd years that has been the USA, but soon we can look forward (?) to being a client state of PRC. Wall St and London will be replaced by Hong Kong and Shanghai as the money follows the power. Not a nice vision, but unless something dramatic happens in the next decade, one that will materialise eventually.
"It's an impossible debate to have with an electorate continually whipped into a stupidity frenzy by the xenophobic MSM. And the Guardian is partly responsible for that given they've never delivered a plus and minus/pros and cons list that's even our most 'challenged' citizens could understand.
The fatal economic situation the UK could find itself in would be magnified by a European banking union in which the UK would play no part, the folly of this is impossible to contemplate, being out of such a potential force once Europe recovers could relegate the UK to the fringes of influence."
Like the first paragraph (very much!) but am far from convinced by the second. I have no faith that the Euro will survive the unexploded Italian, Spanish, and whisper it quietly, French economic bombs
Yes those workers could do with a lecture from the Guardian.How could they make their own minds up,i mean how dare they..
That's a joke, right? The United Nations has 193 members. The EU currently represents 27 of them. Hopefully, soon to be 26. I really worry about how we are going to cope with only having 167 customers.
We want to be in the EU its the politicians who are turning people off the idea because they are all thieves .
Speak for yourself. Don't say "we" when you say "we" want to be in the EU. Indeed a small thing called a referendum you show the truth of what you say.
So you want to be little old England then telling everyone else to fuck off , i bet you you enjoy going on holiday in Europe . There is nothing to fear over there you know they are nice people and the food is great .
It is possible you know to like Europe without liking the EU - There is no obligation to tick both boxes simultaneously.
"So you want to be little old England then telling everyone else to fuck off , i bet you you enjoy going on holiday in Europe . There is nothing to fear over there you know they are nice people and the food is great .

I have spent one third of my life on the mainland (east and west). I am not English. I have worked for the graveyard that is the EU. I would vote to get out of the EU. I am not English.
You are wrong (and ignorant) on most of your points. The food is great."
You're not English but you want the English to get out of the EU , yeah ok so where are you from if you dont mind me asking .
The UK is more than England. Born in the UK.
& what has your comment got to do with the subject ?
I was responding to a little englander who it turn out isnt from England my mistake but is from the UK .
so if the UK is not in the EU ,a prson could not travel there,meet people try the food ect ?
"You are being silly now , of course they could , my original point was, in my opinion the UK is better of in the EU but people are turning away from it because politicians are all thieves .
All for one and one for all ."
"Nobody said the food or the people are not nice,this is a straw man-Europe & the many countries that it is made up of will be visited & enjoyed in or out of the EU.
Your original point implied by not being in the EU one could not enjoy Europe,try to make your point without swearing."
It would seem, very sadly, that all those who strive for power want their financial lives to be very private. It is widespread among domestic as well as international politicians. I agree with you though, it calls for irregularities to be looked into, loopholes closed and bad politicians to be sacked, not a good institution closed or abandoned. There has not been peace for such an extended period between the major countries of Europe, ie, the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Greece, etc ever in recorded history. So it must be doing something right.
Sigh.
"It makes perfect sense to be together for the reasons you state, no wars we all help each other out.
, It is the political classes who corrupt the system with their own greed that is the hardest part to sort out because people who seek power are often only in it for themselves ."
What an obnoxious person you are. Someone who strongly believes in UKs independence from and apart from the EU is a little englander?
"""We want to be in the EU ""
By ""we"" I take it you mean the minority of British citizens?
Had the electorate been told the truth at the 1975 referendum - that the real agenda was European Union rather than the more benign sounding 'Common Market', we would never have signed up for this insidious and ruinously costly slide towards federalism."
It is not just a matter of 'liking' Europe. The Eu is a union, where countries combine for mutual advantage. Being outside the EU would divorce us from that advantage and we would be left floundering in the margins of global economics.
You're not really that stupid, are you? You're just saying that to try and annoy people. Aren't you? Surely? Oh.
"I'd vote to stay in the EU but arguments like this just make me despair. They do so much harm to the pro-EU argument. You shoot yourself in the foot every time you make this inaccurate, nasty and lazy argument.
Being against the EU is not being anti-European or anti foreigner.
Haven't you noticed that the likes of Dan Hannan speak European languages far more fluently than any Guardian editor in living memory ?
Haven't you noticed that Nigel Farange is married to a German ?"
I am pro-Europe but anti-EU. Is that stance really that difficult to comprehend?
I like Thai food and I hear the people are nice. Maybe we should join a political union with them?
"And one which is also deployed those who are in favour of a the EU as a harmonised trading area but oppose the slide towards political union.
Odd too that Scots separatists are never accused of being a bunch of racist, xenophobic, swivel-eyed Little Scotlanders."
so glad you rectified this for us all mick
"There are plenty of people south of the border who think the Scots would be ill-advised to leave the Union but I've never met anyone who thinks they are irrational or despicable to want do so, or that it's not entirely their right to make that decision for themselves.
By contrast I've been called all sorts of names (Little Englander, xenophobe etc) just for wanting to stay out of the frigging €uro, and there are plenty of people on this very thread arguing that a referendum should simply not be allowed in case the people fail to agree with their betters (""the best of us"") about what is good for them."
"i dont disagree with you mick
when portillo was asked about the tories refusing the public a vote after 2015, even if it promised one in the GE
he answered, all 3 main parties have already done this so it is no big deal????????
so yes, i take your point,
thing is mick, the referendum should have been held by brown on the last eu treaty, he didnt, and i cant see any way out for any politician in any party
by the way, i have read about such situations in history, when all politicians face off the entire population, it is usually a prelude to a revolution
wrt scotland and europe...........scotland has bigger fish to fry at the moment, but the same beast which is galloping down the path to gobble up the tory party may also gobble up alex salmond"
Dan Hannan , dont make me laugh . He is well and truly riding the gravy train all the way to the bank .
Well he lives in the UK (presumably) therefore his opinion has as much merit as anyone else's.
No. WE don't!
So go live there!
But not much more. Basically, it's England and three nonentities.
"precisely. The person would need a visa, perhaps an invitation from someone inside the EU who guarantees that he/she wiil not try to take advantage of the EU-members' welfare and benefit systems and so on. It will become very difficult to enter the EU. Just ask citizens from non-EU-countries.
Unless of course Britain manages to negotiate the kind of deal Norway or Switzerland have with the EU. Which would basically amount to having to adopt all relevant EU laws and regulations (and that would be e a few more than those we have currently incorporated into UK law) without having any say in the law-making (very unlike now, where Britain has a strong voice in Europe.). However, the vast majority of the other 26 EU states is seriously p****ed off with Britain's attitute as it is and would be even more so if the UK decided to leave. Therefore, don't expect too much from them should the UK leave."
"Oh for fucks sake. You'd need a plane ticket.
Do you honestly think that EU countries like Spain and Greece would add to their woes by cutting off the UK tourist trade? Does France insist the USA adopts EU regulations before allowing Americans into Paris?"
"""Does France insist the USA adopts EU regulations before allowing Americans into Paris?""
Nope, but France, like the rest of the (Schengen-) EU insists on visa. And yes, There are quite a few bilateral trade-contracts between the EU and the US. Which, by the way, non-EU Britain would also have to re-negotiate."
"Do not pretend you speak on behalf of everyone.
Morons want to stay in the EU. What does that make you?"
"To enjoy visiting other countries, and indeed to trade happily with other countries, does not mean that you must be in favour of merging politically with them.
This attempt by the pro-EU faction to imply that not to favour the EU implies a total hatred of Europeans or anyone else, is pathetic.
We trade with many parts of the world: no-one suggests that if we don't merge our nation with theirs, that we will no longer be able to deal with them!"
"the bitter together unionists do...........then again, no one believes them in scotland either
i wouldnt worry though, when the scots offski in 2014, the ruk's position within the eu will be sorted out as well"
You need to get out more .
"I wouldn't be so sure that the ""scots will offski in 2014"". The oil is running out in the North Sea and as things stand Scotland gets more per head than England from central government. Also are several hundreds of thousands of Scots currently living and working in England going to support a policy which could see them
having to move back north? I doubt it."
"dont be silly karlo
no one will need to move anywhere and the scots living in england dont need to support it, they wont be getting a vote anyway.
the oil has been running out ever since we started using it, and the north sea has at least another 30 years production. i work offshore
scotland is not subsidised by england"
North sea oil was supposed to have run out twenty years ago but its still very much there and will be for at least another fifty years according to experts and by what mechanism in a democratic society are Scots living in England going to be expelled from England. Particularly as they do not have a vote in the referendum ,whereas the many English people ,up to twenty five per cent of the Scottish population ,living and working in Scotland do have a vote in the referendum.The debate about the EU and the fact that those advocating withdrawal seem to mainly come from the far right of the Tory party is further evidence of what the UK will look like after such a referendum and which political forces are likely to be in the ascendancy in the UK and those in Scotland who currently are unsure of how they will vote need to be aware of that .
"I wonder why the Scottish government would refuse the vote to its own nationals who are merely working in another part of the UK? That should go down a storm. These people can influence the result of the election nevertheless if their families and relatives still live in Scotland. If Scotland votes for Independence then it will no longer be safe to assume that they will be 'free' to work in England...that will have to be decided but the English will have a say in the matter particularly if England leaves the EU whilst Scotland stays in.
The volumes of oil coming out of Scottish waters are very small and increasingly insignificant. We won't even be using oil in 30 years.
Scotland is most definitely subsidised by England, who do you think pays for their far more generous social services...the tooth fairy?
Lastly, i'm very much in favour of the right of Scots to gain independence. If they collectively decide to choose that option then I wish them well. I'm merely pointing out that there are two sides to the debate and that this development will have implications vis a vis the EU for both countries."
"there are 30 million so called scots world wide, where do you draw the line
the scottish referendum is based on the same criteria of all referendums, residency. anyway, it isnt going to happen, cameron has signed the edinburgh, move on

""These people can influence the result of the election nevertheless if their families and relatives still live in Scotland. ""
im sure that will work both ways
""If Scotland votes for Independence then it will no longer be safe to assume that they will be 'free' to work in England...that will have to be decided but the English will have a say in the matter particularly if England leaves the EU whilst Scotland stays in""
you seem to be threatening to evict the scots from england if scotland votes yes.....what a silly comment to make
there wont be a referendum about the eu in the ruk
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nqn6j/This_Week_01_11_2012/

""The volumes of oil coming out of Scottish waters are very small and increasingly insignificant. We won't even be using oil in 30 years.""
thats right, we will all be tele transporting to work, so you wont mind scotland waltzing off with the lions share, since it doesnt have any value.
Scotland is most definitely subsidised by England, who do you think pays for their far more generous social services...the tooth fairy?
check out the gers figures, scotland contributes 9.6% to the treasury but only gets back 9.3%. nb the gers figures(uk civi service figures) only include 8.4% of the revenue from the NS to scotland and doesnt include crown estate revenues
keep a close eye the scottish governments income after they become independent. i think you will find that the fairy stories are all of westminsters making.

""Lastly, i'm very much in favour of the right of Scots to gain independence. If they collectively decide to choose that option then I wish them well. I'm merely pointing out that there are two sides to the debate and that this development will have implications vis a vis the EU for both countries.""
i hope the ruk does not pull out of the eu, mainly because i think it would be bad for the ruk which serves no one any good, but if thats what the ruk want the that is their choice. but as i said, i dont see a referendum on the horizon for the ruk anytime soon
the eu is a non issue in scotland
scotland has bigger fish to fry"
"Economic power is what got Europe into this mess in the first place.
Economic power should be subservient to the will of the people, when it ends in more poverty and suffering that nobody voted for we get a dysfunctional society, where paying for systematic failure becomes acceptable and used by the right wing to justify their nasty vindictiveness against those they perceive as inferior and not of their breeding."
"Some more than reasonble concerns raised in the editorial as to why we should stay in the EU but not one acknowledgement of any failures within the institution - hardly an exercise in balance

We (GB) seem to be asked to contribute a lot with little discernable benefit and we have moved a country mile away from what was originally on offer - a trading arrangement.
I'm minded to seek a much stronger renegotiation of our membership but would welcome any reasoned arguments against that position."
"You realize that the reason the EU accounts have not passed the auditors is down to the member states, including the UK, not providing sufficient control of the EU money they are spending?
Commissioners = civil service. The EU has elected MEPs in the Parliament and the elected national governments in the Council."
The deception does it for me, for them it never was just a trading agreement was it? They had a hidden agenda - no wonder people dont trust politicians.
It's easy. "Renegotiation" means that we would still be in. Watch the "EU" as I have done for over 40 years. Every single measure that it has ever "enacted" has been aimed at making itself supreme. Do you want to spend the rest of your life scrutinising everything it does and trying to imagine every way in which that "measure" could be used against US, or YOU? The only safe place is OUT!
After WW11 in which we liberated Europe from Nazis, we were all bankrupt and Germany decimated.Winston Churchill thought ourbbesthope of avoiding a third war was a United Europe in which Germany played a part. So, look at us today. We are told that the people of the UK want to leave the Union of which the Germans are already a dominating leader.Todo so will make an isolated Nation and the Germans a powerful Leader. Batlles will be fought for trade and we do not manufacture anymore to have anythng to sell. Our Car industry will dissappear into Europe and we will become a Tax haven for rich Europeans avoiding tax in the EEC. Become Isolated and the future will be bleak indeed with the Germans ruling Europe as they once did by force. Is this what you want? Britttania no longer rules the waves or an Empire.
Alarmist and unbalanced . The UK runs a current account deficit with the EU , an incentive for any negotiated exit should one occur , to be fully compliant with current international agreements on trade . Further it is more than likely that the UK would join other outer ring nations in a form of the current European free trade zone .. There are significant fiscal and of course democratic benefits . The political class and commentariat is largely out of step with public opinion and  and this editorial hasn't contributed to it ..
"A nuanced debate?
Surely the Europhobes should start this nuanced debate, I would suggest?
For starters the Europhobes could start spelling clearly what is the idyllic new world that awaits the UK outside the EU.
Norway, Switzerland?
If you want a nuanced debate try to argue the points of this Norwegian who argues that the real and practical differences between Norway outside the EU but inside the EEA and Britain inside the EU but outside all major pillars of EU integration (e.g. euro, Schengen, banking union and a long etc) is minimal other than:
- Norway doesn't sit at the negotiation table to adopt any new EU legislation
- Norway - and Switzerland, unlike the UK, are in Schengen, which just for that simple german word they are far more integrated with the EU than the UK, because they cannot subject any person entering their territory from any EU country to the usual reception treatment that HMG inflicts on visitors to the UK: a long queue to get their passport scanned and stored in the Foreign Office database. Any person who lands in Oslo airport from an EU country goes straight to baggage reclaim and the taxi rank.... how civilised indeed,
Is the UK prepared to join civilisation by doing what EU outsiders Norway and Switzerland do, i.e. apply freedom of movement inside the EU and/or the wider EEA as it is legally meant to be (the UK being in a minority of one, in turn forcing Ireland to follow suit, in rejecting Schengen)?"
. I'm thinking China and Korea must be members of the EU too - given how much stuff they are selling into it.
"There are quite a few things you conveniently forget there. Let's just take 2:
- North Sea oil - compare what Norway did with the wealth generated by that resource (ever heard of Statoil, the Norwegian national oil company?) with UK's use of it (basically it went into the pockets of a few and did the country - as a whole - little good). Norway has a completely different economic structure to the UK.
- Switzerland sits, physically, at the heart of Europe. Like it or not the EU has to work with them. For example, any goods travelling from Germany to Italy or France to Austria have to pass through the country.
Britain has an increasingly privatised, dog-eat-dog economy, doing your best to ape the US, with a ravaged manufacturing base, a shambolic transport system and is an outlying island as far as Europe is concerned. Irrelevant to them.
You'd be loony to leave the EU."
"the Swiss and Norwegians? Dream on. We've no oil left, and (generally) we make crap chocolate.
More like say Turkey, or Greece eventually."
A bit strong that. Some people just have different opinions....like Nigel Farge, Bill Cash etc. No, hang...thinking about it your theory holds...
"bateleur
- North Sea oil - compare what Norway did with the wealth generated by that resource (ever heard of Statoil, the Norwegian national oil company?) with UK's use of it (basically it went into the pockets of a few and did the country - as a whole - little good). Norway has a completely different economic structure to the UK.
I agree with you bateleur. Some people would tell you that the difference is because Norway shares the same amount (or indeed has more) oil, divided among 4 million people as opposed to the UKs 70 million people. But people who point that out are talking nonsense, so you are right."
"The United Nations Development Programme has ranked Norway the best country to live in several years running.
http://www.norway.org/aboutnorway/society/welfare/general/"
"You don't read.
I wrote ""... compare what ..."" not ""... how much ...""
In UK the bulk of North Sea oil profits went into the pockets of a few privatised companies. In Norway it was used by the state oil company. Norway also has state railways, a state energy company ... etc.
But your point about a smaller population is valid. It's yet another reason why you can't compare the UK and Norway with regard to EU membership. (""Look how much better Norway is doing out of the EU ...""). But making meaningful comarisons was never the forte of the rabid Europhiles.
Britain would be loony to leave the EU."
"You would have thought someone so keen on the EU would have a better grasp of it's geography. The fact that Germany shares a boarder with both France and Austria seems to have slipped your notice.
The idea Switzerland has some kind of monopoly on the transportation of goods between European countries is simply absurd. The EU could quite happily ignore them, the same as they ignore moldavia or belarus."
"Leaving the EU will have our living standards dropping to the level of those other countries outside of the EU like the Swiss and Norwegians. I'm thinking China and Korea must be members of the EU too - given how much stuff they are selling into it.
This is about the level of most eurosc eptic contributions. Okay so the Switzerland and Norway are outside the EU and are very wealthy countries. Ergo not to be a member of the EU confers high living standards etc., etc. ...
Of course what isn't mentioned are other countries such as Albania, Moldova, Belarus, Urkaine, Serbia, all outside the EU, all basket cases and all wishing to join. Selective use of evidence or what?
Eurosceptics live in a fantasy world where everything about the EU is unconditionally bad and our continued membership is a ball and chain; a fetter stopping us from entering the sunny uplands of independence, growth and prosperity which is our right. The realities of economics and geo-politics are conjured away by the hate campaign directed against all things european and cosy narrative of our supposed 'sovereignty'
I suppose it goes to show that in politics, and as with religion, emotion triumphs over cold logic.
The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to reality it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life. Clever stuff, if a little pessimistic. Freud of course. Civilization and its Discontents."
the two countries i names were/are western Europe, your bunch are eastern European and have - big big difference.
"So you are basically saying that the UK can have living standards similar to the Swiss and the Norwegians if it were out of the EU? I wonder how? Norway's wealth is mainly there because they are sitting on the biggest oil and gas reserves in Europe. As for the Swiss, it's a tiny, concentrated country, isolated, with a different demographic, bringing with it a totally different role in Europe. Now look at the UK, it has neither of these qualities. It is a large country with no concentratd and significant industrial base (we all know who made sure that disappeared in the 80s..), it has no significant amounts of oil or gas and I'm afraid to say it has huge social problems. It's not the EU that is the problem here, getting out of the EU won't solve the dire economic situation and the social problems, the stats are there to prove the case.
It It's just wishful thinking, I'm afraid, the UK will never be, and never has been, like either Norway or Switzerland!"
Oh for Goodness sake; you don't think we can trade with the rest of the world as we always have for centuries? Some of you people don't seem to realise that we ran our country perfectly well for 900 years - the EU is only a recent blip in our ancient history. We should be looking to trade with the up and coming countries like Brazil and the Far East instead of an increasingly irrelevant debt union. But the EU's socialist trade rules stop us from doing that at the moment. So yes, getting out of the EU will go a long way towards being able to solve our economic problems. But thanks for your concern even though it probably has nothing to do with you.
It really is funny to see your kind of tired arguments that don't stand up to scrutiny, repeated time and again by Europhiles/people who dislike the British. Moreover I actually have no idea why someone would tell people in another country how they should run their own country. I would never dream of doing that.
i long for the day when we leave the undemocratic, high unemployment EU.
And what about all the Brits living/working in the EU?
They can apply for work visas. There are more EU workers who come to the UK then go to the EU from the UK. As a consequence people outside the UK/EU can not get into the UK, whether they be students, spouses of UK citizens or anything else. It is ridiculous and this sham of a free market needs to be stopped.
"What EU citizens are cashing in on UK benefits exactly? I'd love to see your statistics on this - in fact I know what they are - a tiny number. Most EU citizens in the UK work for a few years, spend most of their money contributing to the economy and paying VAT and income tax, and then go back without having taken advantage of any sort of UK services including health, education, the police, or benefits. And yet 529 have 'liked' this hysterial, lying comment. Truly depressing.
And what are we going to do with the millions of Brits (like me) working in the EU whose companies will more than likely not be bothered to go through the red tape required to employ us (from your post it sounds like you want to make it almost impossible for EU citizens to work at all in the UK, so British citizens who work or would like to work in Europe will face exactly the same situation), forcing us back home to compete with the unemployed for all these UK jobs - many of which will have disappeared as European companies leave the UK in droves. Including all the retired people in Spain. Why should Spain make it possible for them to stay, when - in your UK utopia - the primary goal is to get rid of EU citizens from our country?
I take it no one any of you know works, or is ever interested in working in Europe, so you don't care about spitefull limiting and complicating the possiblities of millions of future young Brits who would live to spend some time working in the EU. And you're happy to close the door in their faces based on hardly anything more than drinking in lies and propoganda about EU citizens coming to the UK in drones to steal benefits. Bitter, petty, sad little people."
"1) Your difference in opinion is clearly because you are a UK national milking the EU system. One of the very few who migrate to the EU. As such there is a 122,000 per year person difference between the UK & EU. In such a small country with limited space and high unemployment this is untenable.
2) Benefits: EU citizens are allowed to come to the UK and receive home tuition rates while a UK citizen who has spent time abroad has to pay international rates. Is this fair? How can someone from the EU be eligible to receive this benefit (and it is a benefit) from the UK when they have paid nothing into the system.
3) Indeed, 370,000 claim benefits in the UK. When austerity is cutting into the EU system this is not fair.
4) I can tell you countless stories of EU citizens coming to the UK and sending their kids to schools. Often, these schools are ill equipped already and have to teach citizens of other countries.
5) As for those living in other countries they can surely apply for citizenship if they love it so much. Also if they are really that important to their companies then they should be able to get a visa.
6) Working in the EU? Seriously? Is that what your concerned with? Instead of the economic integrity of our country, the undemocratic institutions of the EU and the net migration into the UK you are concerned about future generations work-holidays to the EU?? Look at Australia, are future generations stopped from going there to work? No. Obviously work visas and student visas will be issued on the same lines as other countries.
What you are looking at is your own individual situation as opposed to the good of the UK. That is extremely selfish. It's better for the UK and better for the other countries in the EU.I still hold that we should pull out of the EU. You have missed public opinion in the UK, which is now in favour of pulling out. You seem to love the EU SO MUCH, with so many benefits, that you can stay there. Adios!"
"So those who are pro-EU are superior (morally? intellectually? both?) to those who disagree with you?
Nice way to persuade others of the merits of your point."
it will be rUK that will vote on leaving the EU ,which could be rather interesting given that the Scottish Labour party has stated that Scotland could not remain in the EU as an independent state ,yet that party is quite happy for Scotland to leave the EU on the back of another country effectively deciding whether it wants to be in or out.Those trades unions who slavishly follow the Scottish Labour party line on independence really need to wake up and smell the coffee, how do they imagine union rights will be protected in Scotland as part of a UK cast adrift from the EU .
"If Scotland votes to leave the UK AND the EU in 2014 you mean?
If you look at the polls, Scotland is massively in favour of leaving the EU anyway--it's a far more popular option than independence from the UK. Perhaps Scottish eurosceptics should consider voting for independence as the quick and easy way of getting out of the EU."
"Don't know where you get your information from. I read exactly the opposite somewhere in the Herald recently.
Just goes to show how information is a flexible commodity."
If the Scottish electorate votes to leave the union in 2014 the referendum on EU membership will be after that date, indeed it will be after the rUK general election in 2015 .The EU is not a burning political issue in Scotland, none of the main political parties want to leave the EU .UKIP is an electoral irrelevance ,the Scottish TUC is not ignored by the Scottish government as is the case at Westminster and the fact that so many of those advocating withdrawal from the EU are on the right should alarm the STUC .
"In a referendum it would be neither you nor the main political parties that would speak for the Scottish people. In the unlikely event of them voting themselves out of the UK would they then seek the comfort of a bigger breast to suckle on or remain fully weaned? Anti-EU sentiment is stronger among SNP supporters than any parties other than the BNP and UKIP.
It's hard to say what might happen in 2016 or however long it takes Scotland to negotiate EU accession. But if there's an EU referendum tomorrow the Scots are gone."
The only reason that an EU referendum is on the cards is due to the fact that the governing party at Westminster is anti EU and UKIP is a threat to that party,so it is the main political parties at Westminster who are driving the EU referendum.Both the Conservative and UKIP parties are an irrelevant force in Scottish politics and there will not be an EU referendum tomorrow and there will not be one until after 2015 if as expected the Tories offer one in their manifesto.If Scotland becomes an independent state it is hard to see how the Conservative or UKIP parties would suddenly become relevant to the debate about Scotland's role in the EU and if there were to be a decision on whether the Scottish electorate wished to leave the EU post independence. That decision would not be dependent on the Westminster parliament which would of course have no input into any Scottish decision as to whether to hold a referendum or not.That is the point of independence.
"I love your faith in the ability--nay the right--of political elites to keep the populace from expressing a view on EU membership.
Perhaps that can continue in Westminster but in the unlikely event of the Scots choosing independence an EU referendum would be inevitable. Whether the EU fast-track it or not some form of accession process will be necessary and you could hardly argue that such a decision should be made solely by the leaders of political parties and not the electorate when they've just had a referendum on the Union, could you? Or that a UK-wide referendum held in the last century is binding on the new state?
As for the post-independence political make-up of Scotland, Tories and UKIP currently have about 18% of voters, so whether they are a force or not depends on what happens to closet Tories and ultranationalists who currently vote SNP. Given that 54% of SNP voters currently want out of the EU, continuity UKIP (SKIP?) might well be a force to reckon with"
"i think there is a lot of truth in your statement
maybe a yes vote in 2014 may offer a way out of this situation for all 3 parties
some changes for the ruk will be inevitable, eg no of meps, loss of rebate etc so it might be possible to frame some kind of eu referendum on this for the ruk, although even the politicians in westminster will have very little influence or say in the matter
then again, if the scots vote yes in 2014, it will no longer be any of my business"
It is not a matter of exercising the right to govern or dictate to voters it is simply a matter of fact.There are no mainstream electable political parties within Scotland advocating EU withdrawal .It is not a major burning political issue, if it were no doubt the political parties would respond to it .The EU is a huge if not predominant issue within the Conservative party in England, the pro EU tory party has all but disappeared and Labour in England are cynically exploiting the splits within the coalition on the issue for party political advantage. They too will have to recognise the importance that the EU will be in 2015, particularly if the Tories promise a referendum on withdrawal .At this moment in the political cycle Scotland is preparing for a referendum on independence, a referendum promised by the SNP manifesto, if people want a referendum on Europe, the Scottish electorate are free to vote for any political party which offers one but that EU referendum cannot take place until people have had the opportunity to vote in an election where that is offered.Meanwhile in the run up to the independence referendum it should become abundantly clear to those on the left who do not support independence just what the UK will look like post 2015 if they do not vote for independence in 2014.
"You're missing my point: if the Scots leave the UK they leave the EU at which point a new accession treaty will need to be negotiated and signed. The timetable for that process will be down to the EU, not Scottish politicians.
In any case it is simply unthinkable in my view that whoever was in power in Scotland at the time could ratify a treaty of such magnitude without calling a referendum."
Who says if Scotland leaves the UK she leaves the EU, certainly not the EU .The terms and agreements such as the rebate, the number of European parliamentary seats as well as the various opt outs would have to be renogiated by both Scotland and rUK as the UK which existed when all such treaties and agreements were reached would no longer be in existence and given that within months of Scotland leaving the Union England is almost certain to vote for withdrawal from the EU it is highly unlikely that other EU states would demand that Scotland be thrown out of the EU ,certainly when pressed, loathe as they are to comment on the political situation in the UK, no responsible EU politician or official has raised the spectre of Scotland leaving.In practical terms there is simply no mechanism for states to leave in this fashion, as the citizens of Scotland are also citizens of the EU there is no protocol for removing that citizenship .
"Scotland can't be thrown out of the EU because it's not a member of the EU.
To be a member of the EU you have to be a sovereign state and sign a treaty.
Once Scotland becomes a sovereign state it can enter into a treaty with the EU.
That treaty would need to be ratified.
That means a referendum."
That is not going to happen,as usual there shall be claim and counter claim and if Scotland votes for independence in 2014 she shall remain part of the EU .Diplomacy and common sense shall prevail and if at any time in the future there is a clamour for Scotland to quit Europe so much so as to become the defining political issue as it has in England involving all the major parties of government and media, then no doubt the picture will change.
"And who do we have to blame for this state of affairs? NOT the people who have been lied to by generations of politicians who have shied away from the truth and lied at every turn about what the EU is.
Personally I think any prophecies of doom and gloom are very overrated and the reality would be quite different.
None of the ""GAINS"" we were sold as part of this association have really come to pass. We don't bat as one team, there is still national animosity and protectionism, fraud and corruption. SO much for a shared foreign policy!!! (Came in handy when France sold their exocets to Argentina eh????) The costs of this ""club"" have sky rocketed, and now we know that much of this money is being funnelled down a pit which will potentially bankrupt not only the UK but many other countries in Europe.
Government intervention in markets has never been that successful and the funding of economically corrupt states allowing them to imagine they can live in a modern world nirvana while the rest of us pick up the tab is a farce that is fast losing its appeal.
We cannot be in a position where we have to ""borrow"" the EU membership fee so that we can give it to high spending countries who can't look after their own economies - that way is the madhouse and economic catastrophe.
We cannot have a detached, bureaucracy running Europe Soviet style. Millions fought against that tyrant and here we are shortly after the downing of the Berlin wall creating another monolith, that is incompetent, deaf and delusional.
Majority Voting makes no sense for a country like the UK. Inside the EU we are powerless to influence the events and outside we are powerless to influence events. Outside is by far a better option, at least that way we can cut our losses and spend what little we have left trying to put right the economic damage of being in the EU.
In so many ways the EU needs the UK more than we need them. Do you imagine for a nanosecond BMW and Audi will stop wanting to sell cars to us, and all the other countries to whom we are in balance of payment deficit will stop wanting to export to us - no they won't. If they do not have a reciprocal arrangement then that is exactly what will happen.
What possible benefit would the EU have to threaten us? All they want is our money to lighten the massive economic load bankrolling bankrupt states costs.
We never signed up for that, in fact we never signed up for the EU. It is not a question of the UK leaving the EEC (as was) rather NO ONE in this country voted for the EU and all that came with it....mass unrestricted immigration; the red tape of a centralised power hungry bureaucracy; waste, corruption and political failure...the list goes on.
Better Off Out and as the EU has not had its booked signed off by any auditor for over a decade to my mind it is a scandal the EU is allowed to continue in this unchecked way.
The EU was a con job on the northern economies, forced through by failed politicians (Barosso being the archetype for political failure), if the people of this country had voted for the EU and all that came with it that would be something in its favour - fact is we didn't get the courtesy of a vote, just lies and obfuscation.
Blair stitched us up with the Lisbon Treaty and lied about a referendum because he thought he would get the top job in the EU - Cameron vetoed that and good on him - why should he have been rewarded for betraying the country?
There is a price for that and that price is a referendum - soon this can no longer be denied us - one thing is for sure there won't be a retake if the EU doesn't like the answer - it will be ""NO THANKS"" and we will mean it and have every right to leave without repercussions....we should NEVER give in to blackmail."
Well said. I'd recommend this comment 100 times if I could.
"This sums it up really well.
The scaremongerers will have us think that if we exit the EU, we will not be able to trade with Europe. That is a load of rubbish - we will be able to continue trading with European countries like we do with all the other countries in the world that arent in the EU. Perhaps we will have more control too and far less red tape.
David Cameron will not be able to blag his way out of a referendum much longer, although I suspect he will try and talk it up and stretch it out until the general election, and then if he remains in (sort of) power, he will try and worm his way out of it, like he did last time round.
But I dont think he will get away with it this time."
"why not?
all 3 main parties proposed a referendum when in opposition, all 3 opposed one the second they were elected. why will this change?"
Why thank you :)
"Looking from outside Britain, the Economist got a different view.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21566649-rest-european-union-wants-britain-inbut-not-any-cost-europes-british-problem
Angela Merkel warns UK will struggle alone if it turns against EU
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/07/angela-merkel-warns-uk-eu-budget
Surely, there must be some substance in all this."
I'm confused now , are you Scottish , Welsh , Irish if so come out and say it because the last time i looked they are in the United Kingdom .
Humble advice: When you dig yourself into a hole........
1Hiker, you are weaseling a bit on this, picturethis1 is stoatally UK.
"We need to export to survive. It's where we gain the added value which allows us to live the reasonably safe & prosperous lives we do & to support those who fall on hard times.

We don't need to be in the Euro as most of the 40% of exports not going into the EU are denominated in US Dollars so we need to be able to manage our exchange rates according to the mix between EU & non-EU exports at any particular time..
We need to be out of some of the nonsensical EU regulations, laws & the EU courts, but that's another issue.
We are not one of the small countries on the periphery of Europe & not EU members, which with large natural resources in relation to size can lead an apparently better existence.
Having consumed our natural resources over centuries of industrialisation we are now a populous & economically large country with comparatively limited natural resources, so have to export goods, services & skills to maintain, even improve our living standards.
Economically, we have to be in the EU, like it or not. A vote to leave the EU would be like turkeys voting for Christmas."
"ANy business school will tell you it is a big mistake to put more than 20% of your production into any single customer. Equally, it exposes the incompetence of government policy to allow our country to have 60% of its sales into Europe. We have to start getting up off of our backsides and start getting out into the big wide world.
How about this trading model....20% China; 20% Europe; 20% India; 20% USA: 20% Rest of the world - with an economic model like that Europe can go hang, and all this nonesense about ""do what we say or else"" will be just so meaningless.
Seriously, it is not rocket science, we don't need toshakle ourselves to an economic basket case - one of the reasons we never got involved in the Euro was that it was clear from the outset there was no equal playing field across the joining economies...that can only mean one thing...sooner or later those that have will have to shore up those who have not. Why do they have not? Because they are corrupt, they pay themselves too much and they walk around with a begging bowl. There are many (too many) countries in the EU who have that begging bowl mentality. With less than five nations to bankroll the model it is obvious sooner or later the whole thing will fall apart."
"40%, not 60%.
50% of our exports stop off in the EU, but a fifth of these then go on to the Far East and elsewhere. 40% stay in the EU.
So your 60% is pure invention. Not the best way to make an argument."
"less than 50% of our exports go to the EU .... it is down to about 47% and is still declining. Meanwhile, our exports to the rest of the world are growing.
The 47% 'exported' to the EU' includes an unknown quantity which is actually heading out of Europe, but is routed via Rotterdam and Antwerp. They count this as exports to the EU, when it is no such thing.
Far and away the largest part of the UK economy is national trade - goods and services which don't leave the UK. But in order to be in the EU ALL of our internal economy is subject to the over-regulation which emanates out of Brussels.
We are shackled to an EU which is fast becoming an economic basket-case. The PIGS are bankrupt (and France isn't far behind) yet the EU is doing nothing to create jobs and everything it possibly can to save its single-currency-folly which is destroying jobs and causing massive civil unrest in southern europe."
Do you really believe you can wave a magic wand and sudeenly see our trade with India and China increase by 1000% to make it 20% each of our world total? Do you think that our manufacturers are not trying their best to sell to India and China? Why is Germany selling so much more to China than Britain when it is many times more committed to the EU than Britain? Why is the national income per head in France and Germany higher than the UK, when they are at the heart of Europe and are tied to the euro? Why is French manufacturing productivity far in excess of that in the UK, if they are severely disadvantaged by their enhusiastic membership of the EU and the Euro? Why are the two EU countries closet to the UK in economic size more successful than the UK if they are economic basket cases? Why is French and German infrastructure (railways, energy supply, roads etc.) so much better than the UK, when they are supposed to be hamstrung by the EU and the Euro? Why is the French health service so good?
60% of our exports DON'T go to Europe. It's more like 25%. Ever heard of the Antwerp-Rotterdam Effect? British exports passing through the Antwerp and Rotterdam container ports are classified as exports to the EU. No matter what the final destination. Lies, damned lies and statistics. Have you not yet learned that the EU LIES? Every month, every week, every day, every hour!
Dare to provide as with some more evidence for these figures?
If the UK dumps the EU, yes the UK will move quickly down the world league table of nations. It will move quickly in to a Greek type situation but for many this may be advantage as 10s of millions people will leave creating a learner poorer UK. The welfare state will have to go and we will become like Russia a country whose population is shrinking threatening its existence. Only oil keeps Russia going.
I really wonder how we managed to get by for 1600 years and build 2 empires. Any thoughts?
What price freedom, eh?
Pull out and  in the European Free Trade Association (or EFTA). Let the mainland integrate politically into a superstate if they want, without UK holding them back.
"Combined population of these is around 13,700,000. The UK's is four and a half times bigger than this total.
A big country is different from a little country. Iceland and Lichtenstein haven't a million people between them."
Yes lets join up with a bankrupt country, two tax havens and a country sensible enough to put its oil tax revenue in a sovereign wealth fund, with a combined population of around a tenth of ours. We'll have so much in common.......
scotland and norway have similar sized populations
Oh yeah, EFTA. That economic powerhouse.
"Why would it be ""dire"" ? All the EU can realistically be is a trading zone/ co operative and we'd be part of that and the rest of the EU desperately needs us as part of that. The political vanity project (one bit of which was the disasterous euro) should be scrapped and we should vote ourselves out of that, which will save us billions a year that is now wasted on a useless euro parliament and other mind numbing guff.
I can only assume that the heavily in debt Guardian/Observer are wetting themselves worrying about the loss of revenue from the EU advertising their non jobs in the vacancies section..."
"When sailing through stormy seas would you rather be in a canoe with a paddle, or have one (big) hand out of 27 on the tiller of an ocean liner? For those who argue for a more democratic Europe, fair enough, but bringing powers back to Britain won't achieve power for the British people, since Britain itself has little effective power in a globalised world. Give power to the European Parliament, yes please, and let it elect an EU cabinet and Prime Minister / President. Lessen the power of the European Council and the Commission - make the latter the civil service of the outfit. All that, yes please, let's fight for it. Let's bring real democracy to the EU.
The Eurosceptics don't want democracy, they want a return to a golden era that didn't really exist, and they want us to become even more unprotected and slaves to the market than we already are. The enemies of progress are within these shores, and they speak English."
Please explain the current progress within the EU
Absolutely. Some light in this tunnel of English ignorance and prejudice.
"When sailing through stormy seas would you rather be in a canoe with a paddle, or have one (big) hand out of 27 on the tiller of an ocean liner?" I'd far rather be in a canoe with a paddle than on the Costa Concordia.
"To extend the maritime metaphor: when the ship is headed straight towards the iceberg is in fact the right time to head for the boats. Or you can stay on board and drown with your hand on the tiller.
The image of protection you invoke is a mirage: Italian youth unemployment is around 25% and in Spain it's even higher; the self-serving administrative class of the EU has sought to protect only itself and its clients while promising anything to anybody so its members can get elected to the club and live in fine style at our expense. And this is the progress all right-thinking people should want for the UK? You must be joking.
You say ""Let's bring real democracy to the EU"" but isn't this an admission that the EU isn't democratic as it stands? Can you not see the illogic of denouncing as anti-democratic those who do not wish to live under the control of something which you yourself have just described as unrepresentative? And as for the ""golden era"" which you hold in contempt, a lot of us would like to return to the status quo ante of an EEC wherein we trade freely with our neighbours, without having to drag around the dead weight of a presumptious political hierarchy which imagines itself to be sufficiently enlightened that it doesn't have to bother with mere democratic representation."
"Would Britain ever make up its mind, which tunnel to approach and which tunnel exit it ought to be driving with SATNAV of course? Somebody fancy opt out from European economy shifting its course citing fair bet, might rightly think of light at the end of the tunnel to nowhere.
This indecisive puppetry needs decision before EU ditch us out of it and left us at dwindling Dover sea-shore catching shrimps quota."
"Was the poll taken pre or post the news that we may lose the rebate?
I really do think that if England votes ""no"" to the EU, Scotland will leave and perhaps even Wales and Northern Ireland, areas of which are heavily dependent on EU subsidies and grants."
"A Depressing example of the European faux liberal guilt exploitation.

This sentence is just ridiculous"
"How is suggesting that the farmers vote tory ridiculous? I have lived among them all my life and can tell you they do. Moreover, more and more small farms are being sold to richer neighbours, we are likely soon to be back in the 18th century when the majority of agricultural land will be in the hands of the very few. Look at the massive estates in Scotland, there are few hillfarmers left, the land is owned by tories getting massive subsidies from the EU even though they have the sense to have no tory MPs.
And my point about Graun readers is, this was a socialist newspaper once, taken over by the liberals agreed, but still the mainstream newspaper read by the left. Of course there is the Morning Star and the SWP publication but they are not taken seriously, and cannot be described as mainstream, as I am sure you know. I do not believe the mood of the country is to be outside the EU. Outside the Euro, yes, outside the EU, no."
A fair point about the G being a socilist paper(once) but the efforts to claim left wing support for the EU is a assumption that does not appear to be true.
"Thanks for that (getting the point, I mean). I would hate to see the UK outside Europe. In fact I think it would lead to the break up of the UK. It was the tories took us into Europe, I remember the debate at junior school, although I was anything but tory, I thought it was a great idea and so it has turned out to be for many of our poorer areas.
Although, like most political institutions, it has to be thoroughly cleansed."
"I t have never been a tory,but i feel the EU has not helped the working people ,any monies recieved from the EU have been sent from the UK ( i believe the UK gives more than it gets).The mass movement of labour from eastern Europe was not controlled & created a race to the bottam for many at the lower end of the wage scale ,it also removed the need to train young people when skills could just be imported(loved by big business).
I do not wear union jack pyjamas i just do not think the EU is good for the working people."
i have never been(sorry)
"I think it is swings and roundabouts but a huge big bit to do with Maggie's culling of unions and apprenticeships. This did not all happen in a 2008 to now bubble.
Once upon a time there would have been apprenticeships for our kids, supported by unions, often the kids of union members. That is a little nepotistic though.
I think the influx of Eastern European workers is a 2 edged sword; they work hard, turn up on time. On the other hand my son, a contract roofer working mostly around London says they know what they know but what they don't know they find difficult to learn, they do not integrate and send most of their money home. On the other hand, they usually return home, ie, don't stay here to draw a pension.
The EU has not helped working people but then nor has anyone since Maggie other than Gordon Brown who introduced Working Tax Credits which the tories are/have abolished.
Support the Unions if you want to help working people. Working Tax Credits were a good thing but an even better thing was a living wage. Why on earth should the govt have to top up wages for billionaire tight-assed businessmen who should pay a decent wage to everyone who works for them?!
As for the EU, it supports poorer regions."
"The influx of eastern europeans killed the need to train-not their fault but a fact ignored by labour.Tax credits have been a nightmare after three visits to my MP (lab) to sort the mess out (still not sorted) his office staff told me its their number 1 complaint & placed it on par with the CSA farce.
Many work outside the public/unionised sector so the mass arrival of labour did nothing but harm but papers like this one decided to ignore it with cries of racist to anyone who questioned this polocy.
Gordon Brown allowed house price inflation to rocket & kept rates low to allow crazy borrowings -none of which helped the young.
A living wage will never be achieved while industry can import labour to supress wages-with regards to tight assed businessmen,they were given cheap labour on a plate.
The poorer regions should have been dealt a better hand by the UK government.
I am not anti Europe at all i just cannot see what the EU has doen for the working people-that was labours job-not pissing it all away on wars."
"I agree with everything you say until you get to the EU bit. The EU does massively good things for the poorer regions whilst the UK tory govt still ignores anything outside London and the South East of England.
I am watching Hollande."
"Labour also chose to ignore North of Islington,hence the bizzare election of a BNP MEP for NW england.IT should not be the job of the EU to provide monies for the poorer areas of the UK,this money came from the UK in the first place minus admin.
We may have to agree to dissagree with regards the EU but hopefully its ok to hold left wing views & not be pro EU."
Of course it is ok, and I hope there are no hard feelings. I have strong feeling about the EU and those feelings include cleaning it up just as we should clean up UK politics and business. It has been a joy debating with someone else who has strong feelings and does not take disagreement personally.
Really, you got a BNP MEP? Blimey, I thought Nigel Farage was the worst nightmare! I am sorry for you, really.
Oh and btw, I do not consider what happened in 1997 a Labour govt. Brown did his best and got hated for it, nevertheless he was the only good one that survived it, Robin Cook, Mo Mowlam they died, others resigned. New Labour were and are just tories in a different tie. There is still real Labour, mostly not in England though.
"Robin Cook & Mo Mowlem will be spinning in their graves with anger at Blair for me John Smith was the man ,but........ anyway thats for another day.
TTFN"
Yes, I think John Smith would have been a great, inclusive, PM.
Scotland will leave? Oh, please. No, I mean it, PLEASE! Scotland has performed a temporarily useful service. Cannon fodder. What else have they done? Being Celts, the Irish and the Welsh are much the same. Although, on the plus side, the Welsh sing. Even when they are shooting Zulus!
"We lack any sense of real identity now - we are neither independent nor ""European"", just rudderless.
Btw, anyone arguing that being anti European is somehow xenophobic is a moron. That kind of straw man faux liberal bullshit was used to embarrass the Irish into voting for the Lisbon Treaty in 2008 which all but signed the death warrant of the countrys sovereignty.
Liberal guilt repackaged as pro Europeanism is the Great Trojan horse of the German/Franco NWO alliance. Britain be warned."
And Northern Ireland is in the same boat, yet there are still Irish people prepared to kill other Irish people, so that just one fax machine will be necessary for the whole island.
"The average Turk would not agree that he should be inside the EU.
Far better off without the ridiculous bureauocracy and the petty-fogging rules.
Brits should think the same!"
So no change there, then.
If the EU represented the public interest rather than neo-liberal banksters, there would be no problem. Even though it may be economically problematic for Britain to exit the EU, it is transparent in places like Greece and Portugal that the entity is not working in any democratic or representative fashion. Once such credibility is lost, it becomes difficult to sustain something.
Oh come on, Cameron has offered tax "asylum" in the UK to the bankers Hollande prices out of France if they do not want to pay Hollande's tax rates which I think are what they should pay! The tax havens in Europe are those such as Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Monaco that are not EU members! The EU is doing its best to make the rich of Greece, Portugal and other nations realise they have to pay tax before they get a bail-out. I agree though, the politicians must be more transparent, pay tax in their own country or the country in which they live and the tax havens and loopholes closed. This is so of the rest of the world though.
"??????????
Im not being rude but seriously do you live in a parallell universe?"
I understand you live in Ireland, inside the Euro. Perhaps you could give us your take on austerity that is supposed to force tax paying rather than avoidance (I am not accusing you personally). In order to get a bail out did Ireland not have to raise its tax take?
"riddled with nepotism, eye watering waste of tax payers money, incompetence and corruption. Employees of the EU receive generous remuneration packages, tax breaks and benefits that most of us mere mortals could only dream of. Having worked as a contractor for the EU I have experienced first hand the casual attitude of those within the European Bureaucracy to the use of the taxes that you contribute, that they do not pay. The scandal of the EU and the sums of your money that is involved makes tax avoidance by corporations such as Amazon or Starbucks look insignificant..
Despite this, in principal I believe in the EU and what it has achieved, but the ""Gravy Train"" does not only need derailed, it should be blown sky high.."
...which employs about the same number of people as Birmingham City Council. There may be arguments pro and anti the EU, but I always find the 'EUSSR' one much the most ridiculous.
"The problem is that the EU is currently prescribing exactly the same neoliberal dog-eat-dog policies for millions of its members that the editorial above warns about. I don't doubt that, having left, the UK would turn into exactly the sort of shithole predicted above, but it's not as though it isn't racing headlong in that direction anyway, and it isn't as though countless regions that are securely within the EU aren't like that already.
But I'm guessing a high proportion of those 56% of voters are looking at the travesty of democracy currently playing out in Greece, Portugal and Spain and thinking 'Fuck that for a game of soldiers'. If the EU loses Britian - and it will be a devastating loss for the project -it will have only itself to blame."
"Hong Kong is getting very prosperous. And why should leaving the EU mean minimal protection in the workplace? We would be able to vote out a govenment that really tried to return us to the age of boy chimney sweeps, and the government woud not be overruled by Brussels. As for tax havens, the City of London is already one, to all intents and purposes, and , is also one. The EU tolerates that.

There is no certainty the car industry will leave and if it does, maybe it was going to anyway. A lot of other firms and industries have decamped to lower cost countries, mainly not in the EU - China mostly. Not being in the EU doesn't seem to have harmed it.. The fact that Germany decided it didn't wnat ""Europe's"" defence industry 'concentrated' in a non EU member's country demonstrates who is calling the shots. Was anyone else asked? Or were they overruled? The farming industry worked perfectly satisfactorily before we joined the then Common Market, it would do so again. The farmes who went out of business are probably only viable now because of subsidies. New Zealand withdrew farming subsidies some years ago and while some farmers did go under, the vast majority did not.
And, outside the EU, our government would be able to decide who gets to live here and who does not. As it is, in just ove a year, Bulgarians and Rumanians will be able to come in unlimited numbers and claim full benefits. I am wondering if this is the real reason Ian Duncan Smith proposes to limit child benefits and tax credits to the first 2 children in a family - the cost of these beefits to the newcomers."
"Oh dear! When did they quit the EU? Well, if one of the founding states of the ECSC has gone, why not the UK as well.
You obviously are very well informed so all you say must be true."
"They haven'l left, which was what I meant when I said that ""Luxembourg, which was in the EU last ime I looked"" I'll re-phrase it for you
""Luxembourg is in the EU yet is also a tax haven"" It was in response to the article's claim that the UK outside the EU will become a tax haven and the implication that being in the EU prevents tax haven status."
Oh dear... Why do I try to read two or three comments simultaneously? This is not the first time I have egg on my face for a similar mistake. Apologies.

"It wasn't Ted Heath who 'gave' us the 1975 referendum - for that thank the Harold Wilson Labour government elected the previous year (if memory serves me correctly, the idea of a referendum came from Tony Benn).
Heath took us into the EEC (as it was) without a nod in the direction of the electorate"
"Thank you VaginaDecliner for the correction. Yes Heath was the PM at the time of the referendum and he was a conservative, as is the current PM who said this in September 2007...
Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations. No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum."
He should be asked why he hasn't kept his word at every single interview. And than asked why British public should still trust him.
"That's very impressive foresight.
I wasn't born myself, but suspect I might have fallen for the ""yes"" arguments at that point in history."
".
Maybe India will do us a favour and rule us in a Raj after we finally go round the economic U-bend. Bargain basement nukes and subs to boot."
"I think we may be better off if we did become the 51st state. As you imply, the UK's foreign and defence policy folows the US's anyway and the individual states seem to have more autonomy than the member states of the EU, which is taking ever more powers from member states and moving them to Brussels.
We'd have had a vote in the presidential elections instead of sitting on the sidelines, We could probably keep the NHS - states are allowed to have a health care system if they want and I believer Michigan had 'Obama Care' before Obama proposed it nationwide,.We'd have a right to move to other states, and Americans from other states wanting to move here would have more in common with us than other EU peoples. State universitites routinely charge 'out of state' students more than in-state ones, whereas in Scotland we have to allow students to come in from the rest of the EU and study at no cost to themselves because Scottish students do ( a policy I disagree with, incidentally as it subsidises the rich). Yes, we'd have to use the dollar, but it isn't the disaster area the euro is becoming and if we stay in the EU we may well be forced to join it.
I am not advocating becoming part of the US, but it would be an improvement on the EU"
Is it that myopia and chauvinism are being fostered without considering long-term consequences?
"You emotive editorial simply weakens your argument, such as it is. Indeed most of your points are rather fact-free and simply weak scare-mongering. The UK joined a trading block, and that has had material advantages. Harmonisation of taxation and regulation also has had some trading advantages - however you dont even need to be in a trading block to do that. (major trading partners consult on such things all the time) A sustained push since the 80s towards more centralised power and a federal govt is NOT what anyone signed up for. Moreover people fail to see any advantages in such a federal state, and MANY downsides. That is the heart of the problem.
The average UK citizen does not experience any real benefit in being 'part of europe'. All they see is a significant fraction of europe seeming to want to live here and taking a lot of our jobs.They see a corrupt edifice that hasnt passed a financial audit in 30 years. They see the ruthlessness towards those states that are victims of the Euro. They hear of endless petty regulations that impact the way we live and work. The narrative of UK govt since the 80s has also been one of tension and resistance to further centralisation within Europe, while slowly allowing it. We provide a major subsidy each year to this 'ideal' , and now in times of great austerity, we will be asked to pay MORE. For what exactly?
Really? Are we really that stupid? I am surprised that anyone is surprised that the majority of the UK population want out. It's because they can see no reason to be in....
Let's revert to a free trade area, and where WE see a benefit to our people, WE will decide on whether to adopt further EU regulations.
Bring on the referendum!"
I have been speaking out when tits like you were feeding the eurosceptic beast. We need a civil war to sort this out.
"a renegade without economic power
Huh, like Switzerland then. And hold the cracks about fax machines.
Seriously, I have never read such doom-laden frenzied rubbish in my life. This is not sober political/economic comment, it is a howl of pain and rage. Calm down."
No we won't (become a renegade without economic power). Japan is not a member of the EU; neither is Norway or Switzerland; or Russia. They trade successfully with the EU, yet are subject to their own laws. Now the EU is going for even more integration our future within it will be no more than that of a province - we will have far more wealth and power and yes, influence (apart from on EU law itself) outside this new centralised structure run from Berlin. For starters the EU will confiscate the City; force us to take millions more migrants; stop us deciding many daily facts of our own lives from truck weights to currency. This is a fake editorial designed to scare - it won't work because people are more scared of staying in than getting out!
But there are massive swathes of indescribably poor in Japan and Russia and Switzerland is a tax haven. And according to Wiki
"If we're not careful we'll end up not only outside, but with a European consumer level boycott of all things British. Really though , I still don't think Cameron would dare put IN/OUT to the British people , that would be too binding , too permanent a change if we voted to leave, the consequences are unknown and could be bad . And even if we did leave we'd have to accept EU law , law created in our absence, to even trade i the EU .
It'll be a referendum on this silly half in , half out status of it comes I'd guess, i.e. a final status of his (Cameron's) recommendation; likely to want little more than a loose trade arrangement , with a reciprocal huge reduction in UK contributions. The other countries simply won't agree to it though, not if it means a competitive advantage for an a la carte Britain. The argument will be , if each country started picking, the whole EU would unravel.
You're either in the game or in the stands , you can't be both. We've had nothing but anti-European propaganda from the tabloids and tabloid headline anxious politicians for years now . Once people see that it could go horribly wrong for us outside, just as easily as it could go well , they'll think again. The people who are 'pissed off' and angry about Europe . Will be just as 'pissed off and angry' outside , just about something else. Europe will be able to watch and laugh as we tear chunks out of each over whose daft idea it was to leave the EU and argue about how we get back in ."
"I wonder if the EU will let Britain back in after it becomes a low cost/low living standard permanent austerity country outside the EU? Quite possibly yes, judging from EU history, but maybe that would be a mistake. For a long time now, UK politicians have built up the EU as a bogeyman to blame for their own mistakes. It is a tragedy that Britain has allowed itself to be both a trial ground and a garbage dump for the neo-liberal experiments from the US, and alienating itself from the economic and political developments in Europe (Britain is geographically part of Europe, look it up! Britain will never become one of the US states).
I fear that the EU will benefit from Britain's leaving - no more irrational vetos trying to destroy the EU's ability to act. I also fear that Britain will massively regret it.
Will they let us back in? see above..."
"At the moment some EU ministers say they will not even let Scotland in if it separates from the UK. I think that is unfair, it is currently a member state.
What I am convinced of, though, is that if England votes to leave the EU, Scotland and perhaps Wales and Northern Ireland will vote to leave the UK."
"No mention of the words democracy, transparency , accountability , free votes etc etc that this paper pupports to stand for are these ideals not part of Euroworld because they might deliver decisons the elites of Brussels/ London dont like .Cannot give the oiks a vote leave it to the private educated elite we know whats best for you [ such as the writers of this paper in the main] well bugger that for a game of soldiers you lot and your pals in Parliament have totally crap track record in running this nation although you look after your selves well . Many of you come from totally useless backgrounds such as the Law and Academia with no experience of running anything but you dare to say what is best and what would happen if Euro world collaspes which it may anyway it is not written in tables of stone that it will survive and remember when the Germans cock up it is usually on a big scale and they are the drivers behind the current shambles .
Democracy is for every one not the wine and cheese party elites of London and that includes the Labour [ most have never done any physical Labour funny that ] Party."
I agree, departing from the European Union at this point in time would be a disaster but I am worried about how short sighted most of the debate is on this. The desire for European unity was a cultural one, a sense of European identity as powerful, and deep as national identity. Under the EU this fostering of shared identity has been shallow to say the least, one can only believe the platitude if you ignore the diversity and difference of Europe. Through the inadequacies of the Eurozone project they have sown the seeds of more hate and xenophobia in Europe. What is their answer? The show must go on. What is the show? Integrated markets and integrated courts. A triumph of homogeneity, and a breeding ground for apathy- at some point I suspect in the next 50-100 years the EU will be torn down.
But they don't hate the EU and two protesters wearing WW2 era German uniforms in Greece isn't a sign that Greece hates the EU either. The tabloids here in the UK like like to exaggerate the division, of course . What I find striking though , is that in all the countries facing these big austerity demonstrations , the polls continue to show huge pro EU membership majorities. Deeper polling reveals they even value the EU institutions and value and take pride in their European identity, in a way we know Brits just don't . In other words the very British, smug , anti- EU sneering just isn't there.
The problem is though, lovely, is that the tax dodging is there. That is what has to be got rid of globally.
"If you think the discontent in Greece is limited to a couple of Greeks with questionable attire then we are living in different worlds. Regardless of whom gets the (most) blame in Greece, the EU shares responsibility both as the architect of the Eurozone and its slow just-in-time management of the Eurozone crisis.

Support for the EU is not unconditional and I think for many it is predicated on the notion that the EU will reform. In vain!

And what is this European identity? Could you articulate the Europeanness that the EU has fostered? Is it something real and substantive or a platitude that does the job in the good times?

Oh, yes, obviously one must be a nasty, sneering Brit to worry about how the competence of a structure that governs the interactions of half a billion people. An organisation that only came into existence in 1993!"
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!! -The Guardian, 17/11/2012
But this is exactly what the EU wants in periphery countries. Look at Greece, Spain, Portugal for example. The real oddity is that Britain is doing this to itself anyway without any external pressure, but out of sheer masochism.
"There has been little said about all advantages and disavantages of being in the EU. The politicians and media pick out the ones to suit their means with neither giving a full picture for Joe Public to decide one way or the other.
A referendum based upon the same lack of information as PCC elections is a very scary thought."
Funny saying that Britain will become a "bits-and-pieces economy". Most sane people would call the same thing a "diversified" economy and consider it a good thing to be. Allowing foreign multinationals to invest here not only boosts our economy but helps tie us in to the fabric of the world economy. Britain-based multinationals similarly invest in other countries all over the world. We don't need Europe in order to do this. Europe is just one market of many, and one that is rapidly fading as they further embrace socialism and approach its inevitable economic collapse.
Hey Spain, Greece, Ireland! So how's being in Europe working out for you then?
"""No Eurosceptic ever complains about the selling of Britain to foreigners, a much greater constraint on our sovereignty than Brussels.""
There are several incorrect assumptions this paper makes. This is one such: I have long been a eurosceptic, and I bitterly resent the loss of British sovereignty as we sell off Britain PLC to foreigners.
There are others who agree with me: we are both eurosceptic, and disposed to legislate against the wholesale acquisition of our businesses and strategic industries by foreign concerns and foreign countries.
Another erroneous assumption this paper makes is that eurosceptics are necessarily conservatives. There has always been a strand of left-wing euroscepticism, and it is alive and well in my person, and in those of many others of the left.
Not all patriots are right-wingers.
However, I do feel concern at the alternative to EU membership. The anxieties this editorial raises for British workers, and the social implications, are hardly new to me. I share them. I fear that when Britain parts company with the EU, she will feel no constraints in becoming the corporatist nightmare that is so dear to the Tory heart. A society in which the vulnerable have no protection, where workers enjoy no rights, no security, where the rich know no restraints upon their exploitation of the poor.
Another Singapore or Hong Kong indeed.
The EU is itself a corporatist project (for vast single markets are a corporatist dream), but it is a project that contains within it a residue of liberal-left social consience.
A corporatist Britain unrestrained by EU labour and social legislation, is a nightmare prospect for all but the rich. And I want no part of it.
Which is why, against my own instincts, despite much of what I've been writing for years, I shall mourn the day we leave the EU. And yes, that day now seems certain to arrive soon."
""" Unless Europe suddenly becomes more attractive or pro-Europeans can make a stronger argument ""
Maybe you should try and make a positive case pro-Europe argument. All the editorial is doing is scaremongering through propaganda. At some time those in favour of EU membership are going to have to move beyond insults and scaremongering. If there is a positive case lets hear it rather than all the scaremongering about how terrible life would be outside the EU. Don't the pro-EU advocates think it a tad arrogant to assume that their views were reached through enlightenment, but anyone disagreeing cannot possibly have a point but are merely duped by the eurosceptic press. A strange arithmetical phenomenon since only a minority of the public even read the press.
"" Instead, it will be a disaster at every level. Britain's mass car industry will head to low-cost countries that have remained in the EU. ""
I think you will find that the UK left are opposed to fossil fuel burning cars and roads. I would have thought folks on here would welcome the complete closure of the UK car industry. It is called being consistent. Moreover, if they are in the EU they will not be low-cost, will they.
"" Airbus production will migrate to Germany and France. ""
More fossil fuels. Did you forget that you are against such things.
"" The financial services industry will be regulated on terms set in Brussels and be powerless to resist. ""
Like the EU regulates New York, Hong Kong and Singapore and they too are powerless to resist?
"" British farmers, who have prospered under the Common Agricultural Policy...""
Comical Ali level of delusion.
""will find they become dependent on whatever mean-spirited British system of farm support that replaces it. ""
How about no level of farm support. There is no shortage of food in the world and if UK farmers can't grow it economically we will buy it from the developing world. Cheaper that way than subsidising bone idle French farmers through the CAP.
"" Farms will survive by industrial farming, devastating the beloved English countryside. ""
More deluded scaremongering.
"" Tax avoidance and evasion will reach crippling levels as our economy becomes increasingly wholly owned by foreign multinationals that make tax avoidance in Britain central to their business strategy. ""
This is just a bizarre argument. In what possible way does membership of the EU prevent tax avoidance and evasion. If anything it makes it more likely. Why on earth would being outside the EU make the economy more susceptible to ownership by foreign multinationals? Or to put it another way what is the mechanism whereby current EU membership prevents this scenario? Surely the cases that have been in the news recently were about firms allegedly avoiding paying tax in the UK and paying the tax at lower rates in, er, other EU states. So if the UK lowered their tax rates this scenario would reverse and it would be the UK where firms were clambering to register for tax purposes. The absolute opposite of what you imply.

No Eurosceptic ever complains about the selling of Britain to foreigners, a much greater constraint on our sovereignty than Brussels.
Why would the nationality of an owner matter? Economic nationalism is such an ugly thing in so-called progressives.

"" Our fiscal and monetary policy will shadow that of the European authorities for fear of an attack on sterling if we do not. ""
We would quite like an attack on sterling just now if you ask me. We do not have to shadow European fiscal and monetary policy at the moment even though we are not members of the eurozone. Being outside the EU would make absolutely no difference.
""...disappearance of our tax base. ""
Yeah, because nobody in any part of the world other than EU members have a tax base.

"" Yet the EU is putting in place mechanisms for the euro's survival and even its prospering – a rescue and bail-out mechanism, a banking union, closer fiscal co-ordination and more political collaboration. ""
We have noticed the permanent shambles they are making of it."
Based on the title of this article, one wonders how Britain ever avoided the poorhouse before the EU came about. I'm not saying that Britain should vote to leave the EU or not, but considering how the EU is doing right now, it's hard to think of EU membership as the crowning achievement of British history.
I
"Actually it is more democratic than the UK, which you would know if you had any knowledge about the EU. But don't let the facts get in the way of a little ignorant Euro-sceptisim.
What you are trying to say is that the UK system is more democratic with the Commons elected by first past the post leading to de-facto dictatorship on less that 50% of the vote and an upper house that is not even elected at all, especially as the Commons can bludgeon through any legislation it likes with the Parliament act..
In contrast the EU is a picture of democracy with two elected chambers (predominantly with PR) and if there is no agreement between them the legislation fails."
"Wrong. Legislation originates in the unelected Commission. It goes to the EU Parliament which is allowed to vote in favour or vote to amend, it cannot vote NO and kill the proposal.
But anyway, you idea of democracy in Europe is completely flawed. There is NO European Demos. There are Nationals of France, Germany, Finland, Spain, UK etc etc and they vote for people who will look after their NATIONAL interest.
Without a Demos, there is no democracy."
"If the UK were a democratic institution its pluses might outweigh its minuses?
When are you going to introduce democracy in your country?"
"I am afraid it is you that is wrong. The EU parliament can amend and kill. For legislation to reach the OJ there has to be agreement by BOTH the Council and the EP.

And you don’t think MPs vote in the interests of their constituents who elected them?
The EU is 27 sovereign states agreeing to work together for the common good. If officials were elected at EU level that would give them democratic legitimacy and undermine the sovereignty of Member States.
Th EP and the Council of Ministers are both elected, and in fact the EU system is MORE democratic than the UK.
In the UK:
1. UK MPs are elected by the unrepresentative First Past The Post
2. The second chamber is unelected
3. The Commons can bludgeon acts through with the Parliament act.
Whereas in the EU:
1. Both the Council and the Parliament are elected mainly by PR.
2. If their is no agreement between the Council and the Parliament the legislation fails
Back to school for you I am afraid."
"We are already there. The number of opt-outs means British workers already have less protection than most of the rest of Europe and London is known as the tax haven centre of the world.
However at last we are starting to get articles that show that far from being an EU free utopia, being outside Europe will mean the UK becomes an isolated irrelevance in a world that is increasingly consolidating. Hong Kong is however you look at it part of China, and even the other Euro-sceptic darling Singapore is part of ASEAN which is in the process of forming itself into an Asia EU. Leaving the EU will mean we walking out into the cold while every body else is rushing together into the warm.
If the UK was a thriving Economy (like say Germany) I could almost understand the attractions of being outside the EU, but however you look at it the UK is at best middle ranking in the EU and only achieves that by paying poverty wages and working long ours. After thirty years of free market nonsense, (and being gouged by the financial sector) our productivity is frankly appalling.

1. We are less than 1% of world population;
2. The main industry in the UK (finance) is perceived internationally as an untrustworthy den of spivs, shysters, crooks and bandits (they are right);
3. Any manufacturing of any note is foreign owned and will decamp to mainland Europe if we leave the EU;
4. We have no natural resources to speak of;
5. We have an ageing population that will need increasing levels of care and will be an increasing drain on the economy;
6. We are 30% less productive than the best in class;
7. Or population is not especially well educated;
The only thing we are offering the world is a low pay, coolie workforce in a world that is overflowing in low pay coolie workforces.
The other thing the Euro-sceptics fail to mention is that if we leave the EU we will still be subject the EU laws if we want to trade with the EU (and we don't really have an alternative but to trade with the world's biggest market) but our goods and services will be taxed under the Common Customs Tariff as they enter the EU. So it will still 'cost' us to trade with the EU, but we will no longer have any say over the rules and regulations.
Euro-sceptic also bang on about increasing developing our ties with the Commonwealth. So what they are suggesting is that we abandon 500 million of the world's wealthiest people for a ragtag of developing countries with no wealth to speak of. In any event why would they want to deal with us? Canada is already entwined with the US in NAFTA so not much future there. Australia sees its future in Asia and India is already leaning that way as well. Outside of the EU we are a cold wet irrelevance rock, interesting to the heritage industry, but not much else."
that comment sums it all up really,people dont seem aware of the implications of leaving the EU and we are not going to given the hostility of much of the press.Depressing.
What will happen to those millions of British people who are currently working in the EU? Will they have to come back, having lost their job? Becouse they tend to be better qualified and better paid than the average UK citizen, while EU workers over here tend to be in more low paid, transient work in comparison. And what about all the millions of pensioners who have retired to places like Spain and France? Will they be flocking back too? And will British people who have set up businesses and bought homes over in the EU lose them too? We need to have a proper debate about exactly what kind of upheaval leaving the EU would cause for millions of people, becouse at the moment we seem to be sleepwalking into disaster.
"Spain will hardly want all the Brit pensioners to leave - their property market would crash down even further.
I'm sure a bilateral agreement can be reached."
"51AndCounting
18 November 2012 3:17AM
"" What I am convinced of, though, is that if England votes to leave the EU, Scotland and perhaps Wales and Northern Ireland will vote to leave the UK. ""
More people in Scotland would vote to leave the EU than would vote to leave the UK. It is a myth that people in Scotland are more pro-EU than the average in the rest of the UK. The percentages are just over half would vote to leave the EU and a third would vote to leave the UK.  Yet there is still that level of disaffection that can't be explained away by eurosceptic press excuses.
guardiansek
18 November 2012 4:58AM
"" Based on the title of this article, one wonders how Britain ever avoided the poorhouse before the EU came about. I'm not saying that Britain should vote to leave the EU or not, but considering how the EU is doing right now, it's hard to think of EU membership as the crowning achievement of British history. ""
According to some British trade before the advent of the EU was zero. The economy just started when we joined the EU. Moreover, absolutely no one from Britain ever visited continental Europe before our EU membership."
Whereas the entire media in Scotland is anti-independence, including the "neutral" BBC.
"""neutral"" BBC.
ha ha ha ha ha
funniest comment of the day"
Ah, excuse me if I'm wrong. But isn't that what we've been for the last 20 years?
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"Its funny how anti EU people like me have supposedly been brainwashed when it is the pro Europeans who resort to accusations like this to make their argument.
Every time the left loses an argument it decides people are brainwashed by the press.The fact is the Sun doesn't create opinion half as much as it reflects it to appeal. These newspapers are populist, they reflect popular opinion rather than create it, yet it's the lefts get out of jail free card.
Europe is slightly more left wing at moment (well its crushing Greece so lets say not very) so the left in UK have decided that it offers a better alternative to what democracy offers people in the UK.
Those social project laws were needed to sell the project to people but once it;s complete and power is transferred they are needed no more.
Conceding democratic power for a few social laws that can be repealed at the first recession is absolute madness. It is far harder to get democratic power back than workers rights."
That is typical of the wooly pettymindedness and fussy resentment of the Eurosceptics ..... who fail to see the wood for the trees - the big picture. The world is changing and small countries cannot survive the economic might of the big blocs. Sad and unfortunate, possibly, but unavoidably true.
"Please look at this link if you want to know the extent of brainwashing over the EU going on in the media.
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
Newspapers in the UK are not reflecting public opinion. They are creating it with myths, exaggerations and lies."
"The world is changing and small countries cannot survive the economic might of the big blocs. Sad and unfortunate, possibly, but unavoidably true.
The above statement is either true or false how do we know?
Just because we are informed on a daily basis what they desire doesn't make it true or false.
Is it the truth and we need to create a large gang or is it a lie to convince us we need to create a large gang."
"""Newspapers in the UK are not reflecting public opinion. They are creating it with myths, exaggerations and lies.""
And rarely have I seen greater scaremongering than in this Guardian editorial."
"Hah! That is absolutely typical of the obfuscating, cloudy language of Eurosceptics. It shows cloudy thinking too.. It is all about the economies of scale. Things work better on a large integrated scale; there is strength in numbers.
Just why are the most powerful countries now the largest? If we opt out of a powerful bloc we are washed up, as the editorial points out.
there is a point about centralised control and that's why a suitable form of federalism is needed. Federalism works in America though that's not necessarily a paqrticular model to follow.
|
Eurosceptics are essentially sentimentalists and romantics trying to put up a hazily persuasive but actually confusing (and confused) argument which doesn't stand up to analysis .... but they hope most people can't get to that. I sympathise with the sentiment but we have to change with the world. Not sayinhg it's not a pity ........"
Where did you get your information from and who put those ideas into your head...I know independent thinking.
"We don't want PCC's and we don't want EUSSR either!
How about our own politicians take 'responsibility' as our representatives? And how about we just 'do trade' and tourism with European nation states - that all seem perfectly reasonable to me!"
"Good editiorial ..... which spells it out. Why do the crack-pots and the self-deluded have such influence? Why do they want something which any intelligent thought shows would be against everybody's interests including theirs.
These arguments need to be condensed to a series of bullet points and then repeated again and again and again ...... until they sink in.
The electorate is being conned into voting against its own long term wellfare."
"Sir Humphrey Appleby had it right in 1980, the British historically have never identified themselves as European, and appeals to a common culture and economics do little to change that mind set. A common market of Europe is what I and the majority voted for in 1975, we were deceived as to what was intended and what has now happened, a political union.
Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?
Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.
Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.
Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister."
"If Britain leaves Europe, we will become a renegade without economic power
Guardian at it again with your triggers, the Darren Brown effect.
Leaves...oh no...friendless
Renegade...oh no alarmist
Economic power...oh no poverty
You do protest too much.
As for democracy and the will of the people it doesn't count for anything in the Guardian's eyes."
"""In Europe, the provisions of the Maastricht Treaty, which is aimed at ensuring the stability of the common currency, limit the amount of debt a government can accumulate to no more than 60 percent of gross domestic product.""
""Euro-zone countries are in fact not allowed to incur new debt of more than 3 percent of GDP.""
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/playing-poker-with-trillions-a-prison-of-debt-on-both-sides-of-the-atlantic-a-867404-2.html
""We can be the renegade at the margins or playing our part in one of the great projects of our time. Those who believe in Europe need to start speaking out – and urgently""
Be the Renegade"
If anyone thinks Norway is "out" of the EU, I think they should go and do some research. While they have larger exemptions, they pay in to the EU and they are required to follow EU regulations across many areas. Surely it is better to be in the centre leading than on the fringes whinging!
"Somewhat like making a pact with devil...join me or whinge and sulk on the sidelines.
Seems like a great choice for democracy."
"Every day I read on these pages about the 'lack of democracy' and about how the will of the people is undermined by politicians.
And then when real democracy is demonstrated - suddenly we don't like it because it returns an answer at odds with the perceived ideology.
Similar problems with the following concepts.
The death penalty
Extradition of criminal and terrorists to face trial abroad where they are accused of offences
It strikes me that on the left democracy is only desired when it returns a view favourable to that political leaning..."
"i like democracy, and think it is the only possible option.
that is why i voted in the police commissioner elections.
however, while once i thought it the perfect system, that conviction was given a severe check when (on a different forum) someone pointed out that 'democracy is nine men in a lifeboat voting to eat the tenth.'"
"here's a proposal
withdraw from the EU

no more payments to support other EU countries
no more unrestricted immigration by EU citizens"
Takes two to make an agreement, and the EU might just say 'Fuck off, you need us more than we need you, so you can pay the Common Customs Tariff like everybody else'.
Why would they do that when they have a significant trade surplus with us? They benefit more from the trade flows than we do, so why would it be in their interests to jeopardise them?
In the overall scheme of things the difference is an insignificant knat in the economy of the EU and I am quite sure there will be plenty of EU countries only to willing to fill the gap, especially as a lot of what we supply to the EU will immedialtey decamp there anyway.
"As the UK is a major export destination for EU manufactured goods why would the EU choose to harm its own industry by levelling penalising taxes against the UK, because if it did the the UK would do the retaliate and everyone looses. The UK now exports more to the rest of the World than it does Europe. But the UK is still one Europe's largest importers of goods.
It seems that you think that any change in the relationship between Europe and the UK has to acrimonious , well it will be if not done.
Europe cannot be ignored geographically, politically or commercially and we shouldn't but that does not mean our relationship with Europe is static, set in stone and unchangeable."
With respect, that is unconvincing, to say the least. We are the fifth/sixth largest economy in the world. It would make zero economic sense for the EU to impose restrictions on a UK outside the EU and those countries remaining within it. It would hurt them far more than it would hurt us. To suggest otherwise is just scaremongering. A future for the UK outside the EU is perfectly viable and, to my mind, vastly preferable to remaining within the undemocratic monster that seems likely to emerge from Europe's current travails.
"Actually we are the 7th (and declining) but never mind


The EU will not impose restrictions over and above what they impose on anybody else outside the EU, but that means a Customs tariff of 0-15% and even higher in some cases. In addition if we want to sell products into the EU those products will have to meet EU regulations and that can involve EU auditors crawling all over companies with a fine tooth comb.Those companies that have set up in the UK BECAUSE we a member of the EU will immediately decamp to within the EU.
As for 'undemocratic EU' I am getting so bored with explaining why this is utter shit you can look at some of my other posts where I have explained how democracy in the EU works."
"Also, because a post-EU UK will almost certainly post tough visa requirements on citizens of EU member states such as Bulgaria and Romania, the EU is likely to impose visa requirements on us. This will mean having to obtain a Schengen visa each time we want to cross the Channel.
More holidays in Skegness; fewer holidays in Spain."
Total rubbish - there are over 60 countries in the world such as Mexico, Paraguay or Canada who don't require a Schengan visa to visit the EU - why should the UK be any different ?
"Would you mind posting a link to prove that statement?

Because we will demand that citizens of certain EU member states jump through the hoops to visit us. The EU is unlikely just to shrug its shoulders about that."
if the uk raises its borders, the eu will reciprocate
As I said ...
"Here is the EU reg http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:2001R0539:20091219:EN:PDF
The UK would put working restrictions on Romanian & Bulgarian citizens just like the rest of annex 2 countries so that would have no impact - however if the UK required these citizens to have a visa just to visit there could possibly be some reaction but since this is not proposed by even UKIP it would happen
As a non UK employee of the EU I get annoyed when both sides of the EU arguement peddle lies"
"Thanks.
However, I believe that the UK will require citizens of at least Romania and Bulgaria (and probably other EU member states) to obtain visas even to visit on holiday.
Therefore, I am not as sanguine as you, that if the UK leaves the EU, UK citizens will still be able to enjoy visa free visits to the EU. They certainly will not be able to live and work in the EU without obtaining visas."
You have a belief that is not based on the facts unless you belief a post EU UK would be run by the BNP - please argue for the EU because you belief in the European project & not peddle scare stories
"Visa controls are a hot button issue in the UK, for the mainstream parties. There is no way that a post EU UK will allow Romanians and Bulgarians (at least) to visit the UK without jumping through the same visa hoops that Russians and South Africans, for example, have to.


First, I do not support the European ""project"". I happen to believe that the Euro was an ill-conceived mistake, as is the drive towards European political union. However, I also happen to believe that the UK is better off inside the EU, using its influence to reform the EU, instead of being impotently outside.
And I am not peddling scare stories. I am positing a likely scenario."
Why should the UK do that, especially to any North Western EU nation?
Renegade nation??? I suppose we will be declared a rogue or terrorist nation next so the Germans and French can bomb us into their united states of Europe.
"That's a big article Editors, amazing how the concepts such as transparency, democracy, the will of the people, corrupt and self serving are missing from your shallow rhetoric. Another flimsy piece of opinionated journalism about a failed experiment called the EU that tries to massage reality.
Dies it not concern you and your naive readers that the corruption alone in the self serving bureaucracy are at levels the soviets would applaud? Does it not concern you that the level Oscar social engineering that these self serving bureaucrats engage in, take a look at issues such as house extensions, or the shape of a banana to see the absurdity that goes on, is everything the soviets dreamt of?
Can you not see what is in front of your eyes? The EU is a failing edifice and the democratic voice of people all across Europe is being ignored on the subject. But then that suits the left doesn't it, the voice of the people is meaningless, Marx would have loved this moment given he didn't give a flying f...k for democracy either."
"You clearly don't realise this, but you have more rights, and more rights to find out what's going on in the EU and in Whitehall, as a consequence of the UK being in the EU.
People should exercise those rights instead of bellyaching that they don't exist.
And those same people who think they have little power now will be shocked by how very little they will have if the UK leaves the EU."
Goodbye and good riddance.
We'll shoot ourselves in both feet - that'll show 'em, ha!
Yes. Several big landowning families in the aristocracy gain mightily financially from the CAP, including the Royal family. I don't believe they will allow this to go to a referendum. They have too much to lose.
If only the Taliban understood the LBW rule eh?
"Being part of the EU hasn't saved the PIGS from ""dire consequences"". Greece is being treated like Germany was treated in 1929-33 and Italy has an unelected technocrat in charge who answers to his EU masters in Brussels, Strasbourg and Berlin. Democracy isn't doing either of them much favours, because whoever they vote for will tow the EU line.
We're lucky the UK is not in the same position, but that doesn't mean we never will be. Then the only democratic vote worth making would not be the Corby bye-election, police commissioner elections or electoral reform referenda, but whether to stay in or leave the European Union."
"Where to start!

Why would that happen? The Japanese, Toyota, Honda, Nissan could have set up anywhere in Europe. They chose Britain (more specifically England). Were we the lowest wage cost country then- no.
Why would they go to, let's say, Estonia at enormous cost? The Ford Transit production has gone to Turkey, not yet a ""low cost EU country"", however keen they may be to become a member."
my understanding was that nissan, for example, brought its car plant to the north east as production in a member state gave it better access to EU markets.

Renegades tend to end up dancing on the end of a rope!
The people that change the world for the better are nearly always renegades.
"Absolutely spot on, this article. There is a particular British delusion of ""punching above its weight"", of deserving a special status amongst the nations of the world that appears to be driving its obsession with Europe. This inability to adjust to the loss of its empire, more than 50 years on, shines through in its aspirations to grandeur--be it Tony Blair's resignation speech, or this year's £9 billion pound patriotic extravaganza--that stands in sharp contrast to the stark poverty and shoddiness of many of its regions and cities as well as its social immobility.

Maybe the UK parliament should read the EU treaties. If no agreement can be reached between governments on the budget at this stage, the next stage will see it decided by majority vote. Now there is a transparently democratic process--of the sort that the EU is always accused of lacking--but Britain has never been interested in that sort of thing because it is probably the only nation at the table that thinks it deserves ""special"" treatment.
From a continental European's perspective, the UK is little more than the Trojan Horse of the international finance mafia, which has made its cosy home in the City. As member of the EU, Britain has relently been pushing an agenda of lower taxation, lower employment and social welfare standards, deregulation and privatisation. It has firmly set its mind on winning this ""race to the bottom"" even though the grim consequences of this desastrous policy are now evident, both in Britain and abroad. Do the British actually believe that if a German, French, Dutch, Danish, Austrian or Swedish national looked across the channel, that they would see a model worth emulating?
While the Euro crisis will force greater integration and co-operation on the Eurozone countries, even in the face of stiff opposition--because this time there really is no alternative--Britain will be marginalised and pushed to the margins of the EU. Already, pretty much everyone else is losing interest in the convulsions and twitchings of the ""British national interest"". From this side of the Channel, Britain looks (and sounds) like one of those relentlessly yapping little dogs, trying to get some attention from the adults who are having a conversation. Years ago, someone occasionally threw it a little dog biscuit to shut it up, but since that never worked, there is little point. If the UK seriously thinks that in a community of 27 nations, it can still demand extra goodies, red lines, exemptions from the rules, and a special one-foot-in-one-foot-out status, it really needs to wake up.
I would rather see the UK leave the EU today than tomorrow. Once out, the EU can get on with imposing overdue regulation on financial services and establish the sort of fiscal regulation and level playing field that an internal market requires to serve the interests of the wider population, rather than a small cabal of a financial elite. Without Britain being in a position to veto the EU's progress towards greater integration and democratoc accountability, the EU will be better off (not that there would not be other obstacles, e.g. Germany's government).
So, good riddance then! Get on with it!"
The EU parliament cannot initiate legislation. The Commission initiates legislation, and the parliament can only suggest amendments. Not my idea of wonderfully democratic.
Anybody can initiate EU legislation (with enough support, see European Citizens' Initiative). The Commission only does the background work, the studies the impact analysis and then drafts the legislation. That way the EU is less prone to (but admittedly not immune from) the stupid knee jerk legislation that we get in the UK because we allow idiots to draft legislation unsupervised.
"It is so sad that the Brits, ever since 1975, have done little more than complain about being part of, in their opinion, an organisation that lacks most or all of democratic structures, without any attempt to improve the situation from within the EU.
By the way : Norway is not a member, but ""paying guest"" in the EU. They follow the vast majority of EU rules and voluntarily pay substantial sums into the EU kitty - just so to help to improve the EU and keep a very good and needed economical partner going.
Britain outside the EU would loose her biggest business partner and would have to climb steep tax barriers to re- enter the continental markets - making foreign (majority) companies to move their production inside the EU.
To avoid the tax barriers Britain would have to comply with many EU rules - hence : back to square one.
Those , who want out , grab the last straw floating in the sea - not knowing what this move might hold for them. Good luck."
"So De Gaulle was right to be suspicious, wouldn't you agree?
He said something like ""Britain's heart isn't in this"" I seem to remember. That's it:

The other legacy of British involvement: The rapid expansion of the EU to include the edges of the ex-Soviet union. That expansion has arguably been far too rapid: It's Margaret Thatcher, and the Tories who followed her, who championed it.
And the Tory enthusiasm for expansion ?
1) Dilute the Franco-German axis in the EU by flooding it with new mambers. And new friends for Britain such as Poland.
2) A cold war mentality: Expand markets to the ex Soviet Union and make a lot of money exploiting developing markets.
I'm not a bit fan of De Gaule, but my oh my was he right that time."
"It might do the EU a lot of good to have the UK relegated to the wilderness.
The EU might then shift away from it's current focus on business and back towards development and cooperation. Away from ""The market knows best"" in a word.
In the EU funding agencies this is hugely apparent: Grant applications for science and development are now all about applications and societal impact of proposed projects.
Great, right?
Well no: You get a bunch of hapless academics trying to stitch together ridiculous cases for the industrial applications of basic research, and trying to get a raft of puzzled industries to take part in the application.
So: Let the UK go it's own way. It might reduce neo-Thatcherite pressure on EU strategies for development.
A shame for those Brits who see the advantages of membership, however. Still, moving across the channel is always an option.
While Britain is still a member."
I believe that it was Sir Walter Scott who wrote that the best prospect for a Scotsman was the high road to England. In a decade or so, if the Eurosceptics have their way, the best prospect for a UK citizen seeking better prospects than this de-industrialised slum of an island can afford will be the Eurostar out of St Pancras. Just like the Irish Republic under De Valera.
"Hilariously, this article describes Eurosceptics as hysterical. Motes and beams indeed.
It is incredible to me that any editorial on this topic with this degree of pompous self-importance fails to even mention the huge changes and challenges that the EZ and the EU is currently facing. The reality is that the EZ is being faced with a choice between break up and a closely integrated undemocratic superstate in which key decisions about tax and public spending and borrowing at national level are taken by bureaucrats in Brussels working to an agenda set in Berlin. If that is the future of the EZ, and the broader EU, then it will be the EU that has left us rather than the reverse."
Taking a long-term view, Britain has been on a downhill path for over a century, clinging to its antiquated vision of itself as a world power, while the rest of the world gets on with reality. Two things stand out as attempts to bring the nation into a more modern world - the creation of the NHS, and joining the EU. Given what we're doing in both these areas now, there seems to be no collective will to leave the downward track: things look set to get a great deal worse....
"It's a pity that the editorial has to rely upon Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt to push the status quo.
Again what is the difference between that and the medieval vicar pushing the 'burn in hell' line.
Not one single rational argument in there. Just a bunch of dog whistle polemics.
What is completely missing in this article is that fact that the UK is still one of the biggest economies in the world. And therefore the market we need to be concentrating on is the one at home.
If the car market is to move to 'low cost countries in the EU', then it would be going anyway - because the engineering skills of the UK population clearly aren't important to the process for that to happen.
In which case we can employ the engineers here to build, say, train carriages - contracts for which we would no longer have to hand over to Germany.
Unfortunately when your religion is Europe the evidence that Europe has been captured by a corporate elite to use for their own ends just doesn't get through the filters."
"Message to Euro-sceptics:
1. Please, please please go and find out how the EU works and what it is about, it is all on-line.
2. DO NOT believe anything you read in the Murdoch press, the Mail or the Telegraph. THEY ARE LYING TO YOU!
Only then will you be able to come here and comment and not look like a bunch of ignorant plonkers."
"Erm...I don't get my views from the 'Murdoch press'; I studied EU law. I know full well how it works and I still don't like the EU or think that it's democratic. What do you suggest next?
Honestly it's hilarious to see Europhiles pulling out the 'Brainwashed!' line even at this stage - that has been done to death by now. As someone said earlier, whenever you people lose an argument you try to suggest your opponent has been brainwashed."
Britain should cut all ties with Europe and re-establish control of the empire. It's a disgrace that Britain no longer tells the world what to do.
A complete misunderstanding of Eurosceptics' views - with immature sarcasm included. We don't want an Empire; those are pesky things to run. We merely want to run our own country again as we did for 900 years. Is that so difficult to understand?
You had a good rant? Each of your posts gets one recommend. Clearly by yourself. Sad.
CHINA (the "elephant in the room")
Amongst the many lunacies of the Eu-a very long list including the agricultural policy which spends most money on a minority activity-let us not forget the unrestricted immigration. Romania and Bulgaria will be here next year so the record of 500,000 moving here every year will be smashed
"Why is Britain so prejudiced against Europeans? Britain is European. Only the stupid, the bigoted, the inward-looking and blind can look upon Europe as an enemy and alien.
Public intellectuals, concerned politicians and journalists need to speak out and bring some kind of sanity into this island's shared discourse, so that it doesn't remain an island mentality with the pseudo dignity of an island's loneliness."
"Because the EU is a neo-liberal club.
The EU is not Europe. It is a collection of policies aimed at maximising the free market. It's one of the first clauses in its constitution.
It's perfectly possible to be European but to realise that the EU is largely bullshit."
"It's perfectly possible to be European but to realise that the EU is largely bullshit.
I'll go with that. Run by bullshitters for bullshitters to which other bullshitters like Cameron,Clegg and Blair aspire to in the twilight of their careers'.
Vitor Caldeira, the ECA's chairman, said that auditors had ""found too many cases of EU money not hitting the target or being used sub-optimally"" at a time when national public spending was being cut and the eurozone was imposing austerity targets. ""Times are hard. With Europe's public finances under severe pressure, there remains scope to spend EU money more efficiently and in a better targeted manner,"" he said. ""EU financial management is not yet up to standard."" Despite 18 years of critical reports by the auditors, the Commission and European Parliament have defied calls for austerity measures at the EU level by demanding an 11 per cent increase to long-term Brussels expenditure from 2014 to 2020.
The EU must reform now or we're on our bike because the gravy train has clearly gone completely off the rails."
This is alarming. Tell you friends. Tell people who don't read the Guardian or Observer or Mirror. Tell your Granny.
"That public opinion is so anti EU is hardly a surprise, such is the dis-information and downright lies peddled on a regular basis by the right-wing press, other media, the Tories and their ilk.
The Labour party should also be ashamed of itself as it never had the backbone and will to engage in a constructive information campaign about the EU. Now some of its parliamentary members are also in favour of an EU referendum. Frankly, it is disgusting.
I wonder if the poll was also conducted in Scotland? There is apparently much less anti-EU sentiment up here. Another reason for thinking that perhaps independence would rid us of this little Englander syndrome."
"I dont support withdrawal but don't consider myself one of the ""best"" as this Editor would have it.
people have had enough of being told what to think by a metropolitan elite who rarely travel outside M25."
"This article is total nonsense - re-spouting all the communist mantra that got the Socialist countries back for decades.
What about all the other countries in the world that successfully run themselves without the EUSSR. Britain has great links with the commonwealth and USA, and would be a success story except for the meddling EU."
It would be if Denmark were not, as you say, "ruled by the EU," but Denmark is in fact an EU member. So, now that you see that it is possible to have "the best living standards in the world" AND be an EU member, would you care to admit this? Or would you prefer to carry on using childish descriptions such as "EUSSR?" In any case, the EU is not socialist, it's a free market.
The Danes held onto the Danish krone rather than adopt the Euro, which is surprising when you consider it borders Germany but they did and I bet they are glad they did.
"On a comment thread yesterday, an EU supporter noted, apparently approvingly, that:

Doesn't sound too free to me."
"we will become a renegade without economic power
No change there then?"
"The British people were lied to from the start, as we well know - but never dare say !
The main problems of the EU, are that it`s not democratic and not accountable - no one dissagrees with this annalysis, but it has to be the cornerstone of the whole project.
The other thing which strikes me, as we discuss this subject, is that, both Cameron and Miliband think that they can reform the EU by staying in it - this is truely delusional, something else the Gaurdian must realise, but will not let on."
"Apart from being very arrogant, I think the article is a little shrill with some desperate scaremongering, and has a feel of clutching at straws. There were concerns on all sides (I thought mostly among the Americans) about the BAE deal. The portents of doom about what will happen if the UK leaves the EU have little basis in reality.
The media are not overwhelmingly Eurosceptic; it would be more accurate to say that the media elsewhere in Europe are completely biased in favour of the EU and the project, all obediently towing the same line as well as the Guardian/Observer.
I should say that if this is the way the pro-European case is urgently going ot be made, then it may even be counter-productive and harden anti-EU feeling, because people will have a sense of being pushed and insulted. This newspaper is a great respecter of democracy on other issues, but the answer on the EU issue always seems to be 'make the case for Europe' and 'the media are anti-Europe' (sometimes blaming Murdoch for that), as if the general public are just plebs who deserve no respect at all. Basically, you are blaming the media for not brainwashing the public well enough."
"The Conservative party took us into the EC. The Conservative Party has kept us out of the mainstream EC where the UK's influence has been minimal . Dont blame the EC for the UK's shortcomings. It was not EC policy which got the UK into the crash of 2008
To leave the EC with 60% of our business coming from there would be foolish . We would still have to export goods and services in order to exist . We have little of our manufacturing base left and a large portion of what is left is owned by multi nationals, with little concern about the government of the UK. We have an economy of which 30% is retail , thanks again to a Conservative government, which imports a large proportion of the goods it sells and has to be paid for by what we sell abroad . We have missed the Chinese boom due to the loss of our manufacturing base and lack of political foresight by all political paries. Our oil reserves are diminishing and we have talked ourselves into expensive large scale gas consumption for energy supplies , on which we will be largely dependant despite a huge investment in wind power and other renewables. The shortfall in energy supplies is met by importing energy from the EC (France) and around 2015 we will be facing power cuts . One bright picture in this scenario may be shale gas. The other third of the UK's income (finance) has not recovered from 2008 and looks as though it will take several more years to pull itself together . In the mean time it may lose its place to other financial centres .
At the moment we are still a UK .  

Outside of the EC , we would be a pretty small player (smaller than we currently are in the EC) , with the shots being called by the economies of China , India and South America. There is a possibility that we would become another off shore American poodle State (without the benefits and disadvantages) in a world in which nations will have to co-operate more ."
"On the basis of current polling, yes. The only region of the UK where a referendum result would even be close is the South East.

Westminster is not the English parliament: Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all return MPs so any decision to leave the EU would be a UK-wide one."
British public on purpose has been starved of all factual information and knowledge of how EU institutions work and their links to the UK legislative and regulatory systems. No surprises then that majority of public are all hyped up about the 'bad' EU.
How so? The Mail has a circulation of about 2 million people daily. UKIP got 3.1% of the vote at the last general election. The BBC and the education system are far more influential, and both are vehemently pro-EU.
You have excluded those great 'pro-EU' champions as the Sun, Star, Sport, Express, Mirror, Murdoch's Times, Telegraph and the Tory party itself, where the right-wing majority is in perpetual fits over the EU.
People either choose to buy, or to vote for all those things. The pro-EU BBC and education system are paid for by people whether they agree with them or not.
"BTW, the DM circulation does not equate to how many people read it, including on-line and its regurgitated stories in the Metro and Evening Standard.
Equally, how many people actually voted for UKIP does not represent the antiEU sentiment in the UK.
You either do not understand the statistical figures you are using or intentionally use them to skew the true picture."
But people still choose to buy the DM, and choose to vote for UKIP. It isn't forced upon them as the BBC and state education are.
"i agree with this, portillo called it correctly on This Week, last thursday when he said the uk isnt euro skeptic, it is euro hostle
he also said that no one will offer a referendum on the eu in the near future, even if it is promised by the tories in their next manifesto.
everyone on the show, libdem and labour agreed with him. so do i
dont hold your breath for an eu referendum, there isnt going to be one"
"BBC and state education isn't forced either, don't be daft. In fact more education enforcement in the UK would do good. When comparing French, German, US graduates working in the City, accounting, law or engineering, they are by a mile better educated and more intelligent than Brits, who struggle to spell correctly even in their own language.
BBC dumbed down a lot in the last decade, their Breakfast and SC Dancing shows are pits. Thanks for the Sky News and international satellite news feed - the only source of any reliable information on what is actually going on."
I don't care if there is an EU referendum or not. British politicians would still do what they want because there is no democratic accountability in Britain.
and that is why the people in the north will vote yes in 2014 and consign britain and its crummy institutions to the dustbin of history. no need to thank us
Don't you think, once out of the EU, Britain would become Tory's playground. And Tories are not known for their love of the north, are they. British economic activity even tighter will be focused on the south east and other Tory counties.
"after 2014, it will no longer be my concern what the ruk does
the britain you describe is what we already have which is why im offski"
"Our EU membership is a terrible thing to discuss on CIF. More than usual all you get is opinion based on prejudice. We need real information about what we get in the union and the true impact of leaving it. All this talk of Norway and Sweden, links with the USA and old Commonwealth mean nothing.
You don't make massive changes based on how things are for others ( Norway & Sweden do have to abide by EU rules and pay a hefty sum to trade with them), world trade is changing."
"Firstly this is nonsense – they could do this tomorrow if they wanted to – and secondly it’s not going to happen if the incentives to keep it here are correctly managed. (Audi need not set up a “right hand drive” production run in Bulgaria is one is efficiently managed in Birmingham).

Double turds. The deal was blocked because Germany wanted to protect domestic jobs – as it always does – and France wanted to worm its way into an ownership share of more than 10 percent. At the same time, all three governments knew the deal would fail to win new business with the worlds’ biggest military spender, the United States, who aren’t comfortable with foreign governments having access to military technology. The idea this was related to Britain’s EU future is utterly ridiculous - if it was, then why is EADs so keen on developing business in the US? Why has it developed production runs in Alabama?

Again, just not true. Can someone name one EU regulation on financial services that impedes the ability of UBS or Credit Suisse to do business? How would EU banking reform (which, by the way, won’t happen) impact Barclays’ ability to do business with Citigroup in places like Russia, India, China and Brazil? How would EU directives impact government bond trading, currency markets, priviate equity deals and myriad other forms of banking that take place in a sovereign nation outside its legal jurisdiction? It wouldn’t. this assertion is simply ridiculous.

For a paper that turns its face blue in the fight for global equality and domestic morality, the defense of the CAP is rather hypocritical. The CAP is a grotesque trough in which the agricultural industry has been gorging itself for decades, keeping food prices high and squeezing out sustainable farming practices and true competition from poorer countries.

If the paper argues our economy will collapse with EU exit, why will these “foreign multinationals” (was this written in term paper in 1985?) remain in the first place. You can’t have it both ways: companies are either going to leave or not, not leave *and* avoid taxes.

WHAT? This is economic illiteracy at its worst. Sterling remains deeply imbedded in the Strategic Dollar Reserve (11 percent weighted) and with a global top 10 economy, currency sovereignty and an independent central bank, an “attack on sterling” is little more than pure fantasy."
"ComRes poll (can't find the details of the Observer one online) conducted last week.
Do you agree or disagree with the following statement: ""The UK should leave the EU regardless""?
Scotland: Agree 44% Disagree 37%. And the last Ipsos Mori poll on independence from the UK has support at 30%--which suggests that Salmond has been peddling entirely the wrong line on the post independence EU membership scenario (particularly as 54% of his own voters want out)
It's a survey full of fascinating nuggets: for example only 80% of UKIP voters agree with that statement which makes you wonder what they hell they think they are voting for."
The way I see it there are two issues here, one political and the other financial. Much of the commentary focuses on either the vague concept of a "EUSSR" or the massive expense of belonging to the EU. Can we please have some hard facts for a change.
"The argument in the editorial is based on power and influence. Frankly this is precisely why England should leave the European Union. The Union can only work for people who believe in it as a form of cooperation. There are real costs (keeping Brussels going) which only are only worth it when you can trust the Union and get rid of your own equivalent costs (e.g. just accept EU policies as justified instead of negotiating complex opt-outs for each one). As long as England persists in seeing this as a zero sum game then it can never be a benefit for the EU or for England.
The other countries of the United Kingdom should be given their own choices. There is no reason why England could not be in the EEA (as Norway and similarly to Switzerland) whilst Scotland remained fully in the EU. This is true completely independent of the future political structure of Britain and Ireland."
"Dear Guardian Editorial staff,
I just want to point out that this paper (among many others in the UK) routinely write articles that are EXTREMELY critical of the EU. The Guardian has a daily EZ crisis blog, which paints the dire scenario of all EZ nations and the imminent collapse of the euro.
How can you people be at all surprised that the majority of Brits are anti-EU and would vote to leave it, if there was a referendum? The media, the politicians (minus Nick Clegg, but who listens to him any longer) and the talking heads all talk about the EZ and its pending doom.
Britain would be foolish to ever join the euro. Now most Brits want NOTHING to do with being a part of the EU at al.
You have created your own Frankenstein, now you live with the consequences."
It needed a woman to become a Bundeskanzler for the Brits to finally become very very angry.
I see from another article that the referendum, if held today, would be very close. I wonder how all the UK nationals living and working in other EU counties will vote and if this will have an impact on the result.
"Why would you all flood back, and why would you all be unemployable?
British people have worked around the world for centuries."
And, if there is any population movements to take account of, many more Europeans going back and vacating jobs for those coming home. A silly red herring like the rest of the article.
"This is a very silly article. An EU without the UK would consist of 26 countries some of which are in deep economic poo already. The planet has around 192 countries so there another 166 countries with which we can build trading relationships including some of our long term friends in the Commonwealth.
But as a Scot I can't help look at Norway. Oil rich and a semi detached member of the EU via its membership of EFTA Norway is doing exceptionally well both industrially and socially. EU membership may have helped build a few bridges (literally) in Scotland but it's done huge amounts of damage to our fishing and agricultural industries. It also came close to taking over the regulation of our oil and gas sector safety which without a shadow of a doubt would have led to proposals for Brussels to take over all N Sea regulation including taxation and licencing.
The real question though is if the UK quit the EU which other countries would follow and how fast?"
"""The real question though is if the UK quit the EU which other countries would follow and how fast?""
I think it would depend on how Germany and France react to the UK's departure. If they see it as giving a green light to Franco-German hegemony and start pushing their weight around, then we might well see other EU countries rushing for the exits.
People in the UK might be interested to know that many of the new members in the East have always viewed UK's membership as a kind of guarantee against their being dominated by Germany and France.
Brexit would certainly make these countries even more wary of 'political union' and would probably strengthen anti-EU feeling."
"In which case, as soon as the referendum date is announced, we should expect a run on the stock market (and the pound). Any big foreign firm that has its European base in the UK will surely be inclined to relocate if Britain is no longer part of the EU. Many British firms whose main market is Europe will also want to look after their customers and profits.

Indeed. The tax avoidance practices of some of these firms is also smiled upon by the right.
The British right is strange - anti-government, anti-tax, anti-Europe, but also strangely anti-Britain, as the article suggests. It is a nakedly Randian political movement of the individual über alles."
This is a list of everything negative the writer could think of and then pins it onto the idea of the UK without the EU. What rubbish! Is Switzerland or Norway so bad? There are other markets in the world where we don't get the door opening a crack in our favour, and we still sell there. We need a Free Trade Agreement, as the original Common Market was all about, not the United States of Europe. Thats all, its not the end of the world!
They are not bad just eyewateringly expensive places to live.
"You are becoming ever more isolated in your views Guardian. Not everyone in Britain lives within the M25.
Just go to Boston today - an anti immigration protest is taking place."
Britain isn't being sold to foreigners in the same way we are not buying other countries when we invest overseas. Who actually wrote this tripe?
"Hold on a minute; since when is 56% the same as 66.6%?
And your poll equally shows that number of respondents either don't know, or open to persuasion either way. Only a third actually want to leave right now without further consideration."
"I would say this figure would reduce further if a referendum became a reality, and UKIP and the like had to spell out exactly what their alternative to EU membership is. At the moment people are being offered a hypothetical choice between being part of a union which is having big troubles and some undefined 'independance'. Given the reality of having to choose, the anti-EU side would have to convince people that either becoming an economic satellite of the US, like Mexico; or basing our economic future on selling things we don't make yet to emerging economies is the way forward. They would also have to explain how the necessity of maintaining free trade with continental Europe, which entails signing up to EU rules and regs. while having no say in what they are, gives us more independance than now.
Putting it bluntly, a referendum can't come soon enough as the British people will show they're not idiots, while UKIP and friends will prove that they are."
Unfortunately the future of the union is equally uncertain, as no-one can yet predict whether or when full political union between the debtor nations of the south and the economically viable north will occur, on what terms and what the political consequences of such a move might be.
"The trouble is, a yes vote to staying in wouldn't satisfy those forces determined to drive us out. They wouldn't accept it. Just as they (rightly) criticise repeated referenda on Maastricht in Ireland and elsewhere, they would insist on another vote and another until they get their way.
Normally, people who call for votes on things agree to abide by the outcome. I have no faith at all those who oppose Euorpean membership have that attitude.
I don't doubt the fervour with which some vociferous people hate Europe for one minute. All evidence is that some people hate it more than sin. It's for this reason I wouldn't expect them ever to accept the outcome of a referendum that didn't suit them. Unless that changes, it wouldn't be a fair poll."
"the uk must look very strange to the rest of europe
the north of the island wants to leave the uk union for exactly the same reasons the south of the island want to leave the eu union
the only chance of an eu referendum for the south is if the north votes yes in 2014
then the sh1t will really hit the fan down south as many will blame the eu for this
not so much ruk, more dailymail land.
pound land if you prefer"
"Even 6 months or a year of not having to listen to or look at Nigel Farrage on TV would make it worthwhile for me.
I do think though, that the anti EU side have for far too long been able to get away with slandering Europe while accusing a ruling elite of running scared of public opinion. Putting them on the spot and exploding their myths might not shut them up for long but it would destroy their credibility."
there in lies the problem, the vote would be no, and the only destruction would be the ruk
I think it would be yes so you must be wrong.
"yeah, why then are all 3 main parties running scared?
no one, and i mean no one will offer an eu referendum to a euro hostile ruk, even if it is promised in a manifesto
this was micheal portillos POV on this week, and all the representatives from all the main parties in the room agreed with him
that is why you wont be voting yes or no on any eu referendum any time soon"
"The pro- European side's been cursed with some of the worst leaders we could have had. That doesn't help!
I think Farage must have a private suite at Broadcasting House."
we will become an economic wasteland , with most of our industries sold off why would the likes of nissan ,toyota, airbus , honda and many others stay in the uk . better stay in and fight our corner. i have no doubt ukip and the tory right have it all worked out and how wonderful everything will be once we leave europe ....pure fantasy
"Pre 1972, the UK was an independent, self-governing nation. Then Heath took us into the EU, swearing that it was simply a Common Market and there would be no loss of Sovereignty. He lied. He knew - and so did the rest of the British Establishment - that the intention was to morph the EEC into the EU and in order to do this it would be done in small steps with the British people denied any further direct say in the process.
We are now in a position where 80% of internal policy areas are either completely or significantly CONTROLLED by the EU. 75% of our laws originate in the unelected, unaccountable and increasingly dictatorial Commission. Following the Lisbon Treachery, over 100 areas of policy over which we had a veto have now gone to QMV where we have just 9% of the vote. Foreign countries can vote to impose laws on the UK and can vote themselves more of OUR money and there is nothing we can do about it.
This is about Sovereignty: Who Governs Britain. At the moment, we have puppet Prime Ministers and a powerless Parliament simply rubber-stamping the EU's dictats. The British people have NO WAY of changing any of these laws.
The economic arguments in favour of staying in the EU don't stack up. We run a significant trade deficit with the EU ... always have, always will. Our exports to the EU are declining; our exports to the rest of the world are growing - and that is where future growth will come from, not the bureaucratic, protectionist, bankrupt EU which is making itself increasingly uncompetitive with pointless obsessive regulations.
Finally, the Lisbon Treachery in Article 50 REQUIRES the EU to negotiate a Trade Treaty with any nation which decides to secede from the union. Does anyone seriously think that the EU will not agree a sensible trade agreement ..... will Mercedes and BMW, Peugeot and Renault and the rest of the EU's businesses allow the EU to prevent a Trade Agreement.
I want OUT of the EU. I never voted to allow foreign politicians and Eurocrats the right to govern MY country."
"Pro- Europeans can make a better argument. Trade tariffs and inflation. Food shortages. Fuel price rises. Visas to visit closely neighbouring countries. Alien status for Brits living on the mainland.
It's the great misfortune of the sensible pro- Europe case that it's been led by some extremely disreputable figures in recent years."
"Think you only have to look at what's happening to the public sector and local government in Britain to know that power 'repatriated' from the EU won't be returned to Parliament it'll be handed over to big business.
Britain is not a democracy, it's an island of supermarket towns run by private security firms.  Capitalism/socialism in one country won't last five minutes.
But maybe people don't want democracy any more, maybe they just want to drag the whole stinking hierarchy down, and the only ones left standing at the end of this will be the anarchists, of right and left."
"Essentially you're saying that too many people in Britain disagree with you so you want to appeal to a wider European electorate to override their views.
How very democratic of you!"
Oh to be a renegade, to be hungry and keen. To be restless and urgent. Would I exchange what I see and feel for such an excitement? Of course I would. What are we to do? You are encouraging us to sit around a gradually guttering flame in the hope that by some natural phenomena life and heat will return to our habitat, that one morning our wishfulness will be answered, it is almost Biblical in its conception. I feel a Bridge metaphor coming on; you can only play the hand you are dealt. Having barely been able to muster an opening bid for ten hands does not mean that the next hand is a grand slam. You have no control over the dealer, in this case Brussels. Not only are we too dependent on luck but, apparently, we are playing the wrong game. We do not not want to be in a scenario where we do what we can with what others have dealt us we want to control the pack and create certainty and not luck. The European Union is a race to the bottom. Every day there will be someone writing in these pages extolling us to recognise this plight or the other and paying no regard to the fact that in a bottoming financial situation all that can be done is for diminishing resources to be redistributed ever more meanly. You want your pet project addressed well then we will rob someone else's concerns. Today the arts are suffering, yesterday Ms Orr was writhing over the guilt of child poverty. Meanwhile in the background the EU is aground in a sea of debt. Even its best example, the pinnacle of themodel, the very essence of the EU's finest embodiment, Germany is bottoming out with growth figures that make Brazil and China seem to be superhuman; so that is the best engineering works in the world with an economy that is almost grounded. What has Britain to bring to this party? Britain shackled by the general condition and under demands for more input to the general pot; Britain soon to be the recipient of even more people from accession states and with no means of employing them but tasked to feed them and keep them secure. Britain that is losing her independent means of agricultural production under the spread of domiciliary for people for whom there is no work. Still the Government cannot assist our industry to tide them over, European rules forbid it. Still the Government cannot diminish the paper chase under which so much of peoples' time is buried in commerce and in public services by diktat. We are standing in a circle where each nation looks to the next for some sudden insight and no one has the temerity to look out onto the world. This is not the British way. The British are already trading more with the Commonwealth than hitherto. Our people are educated and adaptable they can move in any world market; a sophisticated society that went out into the world before and founded world trade; it is so against our nature to be confined by the rules of those that have not the experience. We are currently only going to advance as fast as Greece, or Poland, or whoever it is that demands favouritism, who are historic basket cases, or who cannot wean themselves off begging, who have no production and no exemplary civil responsibility. We are at the mercy of nepotism and bribery and a ruling class who want to protect their immunity, their dynasties and golden futures. Britain can survive by her own efforts, her own efforts are more predictable and hopeful than our reliance on others. "A mere copier of nature can never produce anything great", says Joshua Reynolds.
"Still unable to write in paragraphs? Do you actually want anyone to read your stuff?
Why does your comment end with a Joshua Reynolds quotation about Art?"

Is that the best you can come up with, pathetic!
Just saying "little England" does not constitute an argument, although a lot of pro-EUers seem to think it does.
"The biggest issue with the EU is that nobody signed up to a European super state with a central government, judicial system, diplomatic corp etc. The 1975 referendum asked the people if they wanted to remain in the EEC or single market, there was no reference to the creation of a United States of Europe.
Europe is moving very rapidly towards the creation of a fully functioning state.
It is suggested that we focus on fixing the current crisis first, and then discuss whether we want to remain within the EU. In order to fix the crisis we are told, a massive transfer of power and decision making to the EU is required. By the time the Euro crisis is fixed we will be a non entity within a European superstate.
We require a referendum with two clear questions:
1. Full integration into the EU, the adoption of the Euro, and the creation of a European superstate.
2. Out of the EU with a simple free trade arrangement.
Let us end this exercise in smoke and mirrors."
"i think blair wanted the uk to join the euro and would have held a referendum if he thought he could win
brown should have held a referendum for the last treaty, even if the uk had voted no. it would have put this issue to bed
cameron cannot now hold a referendum or indeed claw back powers. the tories are desperately looking for another treaty from europe that they can put to the uk in a form of a referendum so that the people can reject it, without which, the referendum looming on europe will be an in/out option and no one knows what that means
difficult to avoid. all 3 main parties proposed eu referendums in their manifestos when in opposition, all 3 voted against holding one once in power. this is a very strange situation for all parties and probably the reason so few people vote.
thank goodness ukip are too stupid to move to the recently vacated center ground of uk politics"
"The best in Britain" This is a joke, right?
"Stop it!
I'm trying to drink a cup of tea and now I'm getting it all down myself."
"I forgot to mention Jackie Ashley.
Don't worry, it'll wash off."
Quick tip for people who don't want to lose their EU membership (I quite like knowing I have the freedom to live and work in any EU state): if you have an Irish parent or grandparent, you are entitled to an Irish passport. If it's a grandparent, you have to pay £100 to be included in the foreign births register but that's it: you then have dual nationality and a nice new passport as well. Handy to know!
Meanwhile we are in the EU and our current status is already dire!
"this is one of the main pillars of the ukip agenda
it isnt enough that the uk pulls out of europe, the eu will continue regardless and therein lies the danger. this is why ukip calls for the people of europe to ditch europe as well. in or out, the uk cannot ignore the eu, in or out, uk business will still need to produce straight bananas if they want to sell them in europe
the success of ukips policy on pulling the uk out of europe requires all of the other eu countries to do the same.
this is the elephant in the room"
"""imagining that the EU will be perfectly happy to accept unfair and unregulated competition. To believe this as the route to economic salvation is fanciful indeed.""
I suppose thay's why the EU is boycotting all Chinese goods, is it?"
Er, um... yes it is, although the word "boycott" is never used. Instead the EU levies import duties, selective product embargoes and quotas (not to mention exclusion of products that are not manufactured to European safety standards). The EU is most certainly not a dumping ground for Chinese goods, and a great deal of the services industry is closed to them.
It took Britain ages to get into the EU.
De Gaulle had a point.
Maybe but after WW2 France , West Germany and even Italy were doing better economically because of the EEC.
That's all nonsense and fantasy. Inform yourself on the EU before you comment, and that goes for the other fantasists as well, those who think the EU is a left-wing conspiracy...Besides, pacta sunt servanda; nobody gets to nix international treaties unilaterally without making fools of themselves.
"Given that the doom and gloom suggested by this editorial is entirely dependent on this assertion:

It's a shame you haven't provided a little more evidence and argument to back it up.

really doesn't persuade me.
The result of an In or Out referendum on the EU would be pretty much a foregone conclusion, and that's why I can't see either of

actually calling one."

Can we please stop the 'little Englander' nonsense. Aside from the fact that it doesn't include the rest of the UK, using it as some kind of trump card shows an astonishing lack of maturity and adds nothing to the debate. I know it's nice for you to think that those that are opposed to the EU are narrow-minded, borderline racists who are not worthy of any response other than childish insults, but that's simply not the case. Perhaps the most eloquent of EU opponents, Dan Hannan, could never be accused of being a 'little Englander'.
"whether you are pro or anti eu is not the issue
the issue now is whether there should be a referendum
unfortunately the question is no longer about a treaty, it will be in/out, and the no vote will be a foregone conclusion.
brown really should have given the uk a referendum on the last treaty, he has left all the parties in the uk a real headache.
except alex salmond of course"
"I think the dynamic would change if an in/out referendum became reality. At the moment public opinion is like someone moaning about a job they hate who still goes in everyday; and is very different from actually making the decision to leave.
I also think any referendum should be on the big question of membership rather than a vote on a treaty which no one has read, and is in any case a proxy for an in or out vote."
"there in lies the problem, any referendum which tries to explain what in or out actually means would require a ballot paper several meters long
eg, the referendum in scotland in 98, there was nothing on it which mentioned that scots labour mps would vote on english only matters. this was decided after the referendum by the.........er......labour party"
"The ballot paper needs only a short question with a yes or no answer. It is down to the campaigners on either side to make the longer and more detailed arguments.
I do agree that the English need to get off their lazy backsides and set up their own assembly instead of clogging up the British parliament, which I fund with my Welsh taxes, with English only matters"
not necessary, by default, the scots are about to do this for them
That still leaves 2 national parliaments, Cardiff and Stormont, as well as Westminster. The problem remains even if Scotland doesn't, though it will.
"if scotland votes yes, i dont see how the issue of the eu can be ignored in the ruk
i just cant see what the ruk can or will do about it"
"...'British farmers, who have prospered under the Common Agricultural Policy'...
If by that you mean 'British farmers, who have prospered despite the Common Agricultural Policy'...
...I fully agree."
I live in Germany, am UK born and bred, and can compare the UK and Germany on a realistic level. Whilst proud of Great Britains' past history I think the current Germany is a far better place to live than the UK. People are more civilised iin Germany, families seem to do activities together, young people seem less agressive and, yes, more intelligent. Public transport works, the media is not aimed only at the under 35 market segment, credit cards are used infrequently, this UK obsession with home ownership is rarely in evidence, rents for residential properties are regulated and reasonable...oh yes and the climate is better.
But none of that has anything to do with the EU.
"What's that got to do with the article?
(I agree that Germany is a nice place, however.)"
"This is all understandable. I consider myself a Labour voter, but
honesty much of the EU leaves me cold. I'm biased somewhat by
actually living in Finland. I don't want to lose my easy residency
here. Asides things like that and Free Trade I've little time or
belief in the EU. It should never have been anything more than
a Common Market. Look at what it's done to our Fishing communities
and industry. Look at how billions prop up a influential French
farming industry, and look at what it did to say the Nordic countries
dairy farmers. It's an unaccountable joke of a thing, loved mainly by
politicians and functionaries. I've no real love for it, but like others it does
not mean I do not like and love the places and the people of Europe.
Guess I'll need to be applying for a Visa, like all the local resident
Russians. When we do leave the EU which i think we will."
But...we know best ! Stupid proles....
i think the more fashionable term is "pleb"
Surely, Schrodey, both terms can co-exist?
only as un collapsed probability waves
If Switzerland, Norway and the rest are renegades then bring it on!
"Simple soundbites merely display your profound ignorance. Before you show yourself up again, I suggest you take the time to find out exactly what the terms and conditions applicable to ""Switzerland, Norway and the rest"" actually are.
When you've done that, come back and tell us just how their terms and conditions of trade are in any way better than those we in the UK already enjoy.
I'll give you a clue to help you on your way... they ain't!"
So why have they decided not to become fully-fledged members? Their terms of trade may be identical but they are not expected to contribute to the CAP etc.
The only thing keeping us in the EU is a clique of elite politicians from all parties who continually deny us a referendum despite their promises to hold one. Hardly the best advertisement for democracy.
"spot on bograt, unfortunately it isnt a clique of elite politicians. it is all of them,
once they get into power, the sir humphreys in westminster explain the real world to them and they sh1t themselves"
"Just to remind myself in case I forget it:
An Englishman is not all that different to a Frenchman or a German. The only difference is that , the French think they are the superior race, and the Germans think they are the superior race, which makes living together much more difficult than it needs to be.
But I suppose everyone knows this already, and the arguments against being a co-operative internationalist are much more sophisticated?"
Speak for yourself.
"Once again this nonsense (perpetrated by the Murdoch press) that we could be like Norway or Switzerland.Please do some more homework. Switzerland is only able to stay out of the EU because it has a very small population with very high incomes from financial and pharmaceutical businesses. Norway is has vast quantities of oil and a tiny population. However, they have to pay swingeing tariffs to sell to the EU, or to buy staples like butter, which price it out of most markets in Europe. They also have to abide by all EU standards when they do get a chance to sell anything to them.
So none of the above applies to the UK - who should be a big player according to its population and with a trading history that makes it imperative that we stay in. We are already being sidelined - separate departure gates in airports etc, (because we are not in Schengen - unlike the above countries)and no say whatsoever in the financial decisions taken by the other 16 in the eurozone, where we only have observer status.
This sidelining will continue, and if we vote to leave, will become more acute. Those who have said that multinational companies will move to other countries in the EU - especially car manufacturers - are absolutely correct. Nissan said so when moving into the North-East of England.
Also, those who claim, again a myth promulgated by eurosceptic politicians and the press, that we only signed up to an economic community are totally wrong. All politicians of the time (see their speeches) agreed that we were going to pool sovereignty for the greater gain, and if you take the time to read the preambles to any or all of the Treaties it says ""towards ever closer union"". That was always a given, and eurosceptic rhetoric is quite simply untrue."
"sensible post bogatty
unfortunately, the time for sensible comments was past when brown failed to deliver an eu referendum on the last treaty
the uk, or what will be left of it in 2014, has and will continue its decent into yaboo sucks soundbites
sensible comments on europe are a thing of the past"
So many opinions, so many theories! But how many are based on real facts? What we need is a thorough presentation of the facts about membership of the EU and some contextualisation (for example, what does membership in or out mean in the globalised economy?) Like many political discussions, there is a lot of partial information, even misinformation being thrown around. Perhaps a future referendum on membership will trigger the opening-up of the arguments for and against. I hope so. The implications of a democratic decision made in ignorance could have far-reaching consequences.
"another sensible post
too late though, it wont happen"
I disagree
I thought this article doesn't need comment, it says it the way it will be. De regulation in the workplace is the agenda and non tax paying corporations are already showing us the way it will pan out. I pity my grandchildren if Farage ever gets taken seriously.
Thought not.
Much lower taxes, smaller government, less regulation, more private provision of services, more wealth but greater inequality, less State intrusion, a much smaller welfare state in proportion to the economy as a whole, less greenery.
"Democracy should not cow-tow to the lowest motives. Most of the English do not like ''foreigners''. (The Scots are different. They would probably stay in the EU if the UK did leave - maybe they are better educated and don't ''read'' the Sun?).
MPs are elected to take the best decisions on complex matters, regardless of the appalling prejudices and contrary views being expressed by their electors. I accept a small percentage of Tory MPs exist, who cannot think clearly about the dire consequences of Britain being on its own, or a client state of the USA.
Most MPs know perfectly well that outside the EU Britain would decline as an economic power. Where would the foreign investment come from? Britain is not Switzeralnd with its top companies with around 90% of foreign sales. It is not Norway either, with its vast well conserved oil and gas reserves.
Lets all stop just talking about democracy and try to think rationally."
"""the consequences of such a withdrawal would be dire""
For a start, if Britain withdraws from the EU, where is the Deputy Prime Minister going to find a job after 2015...???"
"Seriously? No economic Power?
What a load of utter tosh! Do you think our goods will no longer be desired in the EU if we leave? Do you really think the EU states won't want to sell their goods to our consumers?
Where in hell do you get Renegade? I used to think the Guardian was about serious journalism but I have been wondering otherwise recently and you have just confirmed a complete lack of objectivity.
I keep reading about the government being held hostage by it's increasingly Euro-Sceptic Back-Benchers. Does this mean the Tory Back-Benchers are the only ones representing the wishes of their electorate?
Stop spinning Euro-Scepticism as a form of lunacy. By doing so, you are tarring (by your own survey) 56% of the electorate.... That's 56% of the news paper buying population who you have just alienated!
You'ra almost as bad as the opertunistic but severely naive Little Ed who is slowly painting himself into a corner he won't be able to get out of.
Whether you agree or disagree with the EU, you have to admit that the mother of all parliaments is failing it's electorate by refusing to give them what they want which is a referendum on the relationship with the EU.
The majority want it so if the various parties think it a good idea we stay in the EU, they need to give a referendum and then make thier case. They won't because that would:
A) Be democratic.
B) Almost certainly result in any number of politicians and party cohorts losing their jobs within the EU.
C) Close of a retirement plan avenue to the current batch of spineless politicians!
On the other hand, it could be a Yes vote and give the Government a mandate to insist on reform and full engagement. Not likely to be accepted by the rest of the EU but it would be a starter for 10."
"Let's imagine for a minute that the UK is not a member of the EU.
No £billions per year net contribution.
No directives on regulations from the EU.
No interference with our law from the EU.
What would the UK market look like to EU members?
Would Germany, France, Italy , Spain, Holland want to export goods to the UK on the scale they currently do or would they be happy without their exports coming to the UK?
The UK is in a strong position to leave the EU."
"Not much to disagree with in this comment piece. Our future should be as a full and active member of the EU.
I do a great deal of work in Europe on European policy. My main frustration is with the arrogance of Commission staff, they behave like colonial rulers, not servants of the EU. Reform of the Commission, so that Parliament sets the agenda for their work, is an absolute.
If UK left the EU our voice would, at times, be missed. There are many areas where we are progressives, at the forefront of making a real difference about how other EU members think. This having been said just as many will be glad we are not in the room. As well as being progressive we also have a reputation for petulance and arrogance.
We should think carefully before we proceed in the direction of exit. Worse still we should be aware that we may be asked to leave if we don't start recognising Europe as a necessary compromise of self interest rather than an extension of British imperialism."
"The EU is so popular that even the Italians are not willing to vote the EU imposed goldman sachs banker leader into power
Forcing a bilderberg meeting on how to condition the italian public to accept
monti
The EU in particular need italy's large gold stock, to back it fiat money supply
Something Germany cant do."
"britain will Secede from this one world governance project
if its voters get a vote
It will have soverienghty and freedom
Something other countries in the EU dont want
Independance or
Withdrawing from an organization or communion like the former Soviet Union
is"
"the velvet revolution in former Czechoslovakia springs to mind
there will be no war if scotland says yes
the people of the uk are not interested enough in politics to care either way"
Yeah, just like Switzerland. I was there last week, and I was astonished to find such a third-world hell hole on the very borders of the EU. Poor sods.
"Speaking personally, I like the EU. It reminds me that English culture is just one way of putting things, with its strengths and its weaknesses. I like the fact that the Scandanavians, the Germans, the French etc are closer to me than Bristol and more like-minded than the Daily Mail.
And recognising the strengths of fellow-Europeans in so many areas - culturally, technologically, ecologically, socially - helps me to come to terms with the narrow-minded prejudice that seems to go with being English :)"
Another debate framed as in or out. The reality is a compromise between the two. We get many benefits from the EU and also some costs. The trick is to negotiate the best position for the country and not go to the extreme's of the in or out only debate.
"i think this is the problem, a referendum would need to define what in out means. no small task
the fact that brown didnt give us a vote on the last treaty, which either a yes or no reply would have put this issue to bed for a generation. the public is now crying out for a yes/no referendum because of this,
what a mess"
That is the main problem.
And when your all alone and in the dark the boggie man will get you's
you sound as if you speak from a position of experience, look what he did to your face!

Answer: none of the above. We want control of our future and it's a simple as that. And here's a tip for your next post: if you have a case, make it. A list of cheap insults isn't the same thing as explaining why the EU is good idea.
"england isnt an island and the brits are not hell bent on self exclusion, the english are.
this is why the scots are offski
by the way, the one nation that milliband was talking about is england, as was the original one nation speech by Disraeli
one thing all 3 of you have in common is you dont seem to know the difference between britain and england, but after 2014, it will no longer matter"
Perhaps learning the difference between English and British should have been your first step in your analysis.
"Hmm - well, as I was born in London and one of my my grandfathers was Scottish, I don't much care for the distinction.
Neither do I care for the distinction that the English are not French or German. Progress lies with human beings who recognise their common humanity first, and their geopolitical conditioning second."
Because we see the EU as a Franco German dominated club that governs without democratic mandate. Our leaders have always governed with our consent. We did not defeat the Germans twice to live under Merkel's jackboot like the Greeks.
"perhaps your unwillingness to distinguish between england and britain is one of the main reasons why the other parts of britain are offski?
how is calling a welshman, english recognising his common humanity?"
"How is overplaying the significance of someone who is born in Wales being ""Welsh"" and that of someone being born in England ""English"", recognising his common humanity?
Common humanity is common to someone who is Welsh, English, Hungarian, Dutch, Scottish and Japanese. The more this is recognised, the less value we will give to what separates us, and the more value we will give to what we actually do have in common. Which means that being European is a natural next-step to being Welsh, Scottish or English or French or German or Belgian:)"
im not overplaying it, im pointing out your refusal to call everyone in britain anything other than english, is discourteous
"Nationalism incurs the threat of everlasting discourtesy, because it is based on an illusion.
But I apologise if you took my comments personally. For me the distinction between being British, English or Scottish, has never ocurred to me. I hope, one day, you will feel the same way and neither of us will get upset about these matters. :)"
"i no longer have any idea what you are saying and who you are saying it to
better let it drop"
"But you don't have control of your future. With climate change, an unsettled middle-east, the rise of china, the global ecomomic system, changes in technology and fluidity of social existence, you are totally dependent on a world beyond your borders.
An intelligent citizenry recognises this and works with it."
"It is a Franco-German club because Britain declines to participate as an equal member. Is this because the UK clings to an outdated self-evaluation which is at odds with actuality? Or because it is acting out of brute short-term self-interest, heedless of the long-term redundancy of such a position?
China doesn't care a hoot for British pride."
so much for recognising the chinese common humanity?
does this also extend to british nationalism, or is it reserved for insulting the non english people of britain?
Nationalism anywhere - Scottish, British, English, French. Only nationalists are insulted by the fact that humanity is an international phenomenon. This is an ongoing saga....
"Great post sk. This is becoming the real problem in any discussion about either Scottish Independence or the EU, the staggering inability of those ABOVE as well as below the line clearly able to distinguish between England and the UK. Some manage it as a purely semantic exercise for a short while but once you get into any sort of analysis of the issues it becomes apparent that any real ability to distinguish is absent. It completely distorts even basic debate as the England-as-the-whole-show suffocates by projection. Chronically, it isn't even meant offensively by some, such is the saturation level of ignorance.
I'm getting to the point where I'm actually counting the days to voting yes in the referendum, to be free of having to bother with it. Cognitive dissonance is not authentic togetherness and it's loop that needs closing for good to in order to start tackling things practically as they really are, where they really are."
"what happens outside the english bubble very rarely gets reported
i think the yes vote in 2014 will burst many bubbles, the eu one especially"
Why didn't you criticise 'humanity' in your comment instead of British people?
"Can't you understand? We do not want to be a part of the club. The French have stitched up the system and will never change - see how they react when the CAP budget is threatened. We woudl be better off out of it. It is not only short term considerations. In the long run we are tying ourselves to an economic corpse.
I, and millions of others, have never been asked if we want to carry on with this farce. Out and out now!"
"If, which is doubtful, some or all of the eurozone states are prepared to form a political union to preserve the euro by agreeing to debt pooling and transfers that is a matter for them. Of course such a federation would have to (re)apply to be a member of the eu because they would have relinquished individual sovereignty and our consent would presumably be on terms that were acceptable to us.
The budget talks are an ideal juncture to question the whole principle of subsidies from one state to others. Whilst there may initially have been a case for some grant aid to create a certain degree of level playing field for the poorer states to be able to join, the rationale for that is long gone and the budget should be confined to whatever is appropriate to support a central secretariat capable of protecting and furthering the Single Market. Although this implies a good deal of economic regulation it is evident that this has already extended far into areas which are of little or no relevance to the efficient functioning of the Market and are matters best left to the individual states.
It is difficult to see why the total budget for this could not be achieved within ten million sterling. It may be that some of the existing members would decide to leave if the money tap was turned off."
What a load of shit by the journalist. Trust the Voters for they say and enshrine it in the law to have a vote on this issue at every election an ongoing referendum.
The way people go on, you'd think everyone was living in huts until the EU came along.
"The whole European project, including the many institutions and the single currency, was born out of political dogma.
Just as the fincancial crisis was born out of a misguided financial and business dogma and its obsession with all things free market.
Its time for such dogma to be replaced with practical polices, and 
BEING GOOD EUROPEANS DOESN'T MEAN BEING IN THE EU."
"if that is the case then exiting the eu should be done in stages like slowly removing a plaster. cant see this happening though, more likely a very damaging quick ripping off the plaster.
we are now in this situation because we have been badly governed by all politicians in all parties"
God, if only we, the people, would be as clever as the Observer and its journos. Thanks for you being out there and knowing so much better than us, ourselves, what's good for us. Thank you very much indeed...
"More lies from the EU brigade. The rest of the world must be frightened to death at the economic poweer of Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal. The world has passed the EU by - it was a good idea to tie the Germans and French together after the war. Germany paying the French to 'farm' and enjoy their great pensions. We should never have joined and that traitor, Heath, lied to the country. We have nothing in common with the Europeans and have much better relationships with those countries that share our world view. 
Time to get out and our politicans will have ot accept the will of the people eventually.
Along with the EU we can then get rid of the ECHR and other ridiculous laws that serve no purpose."
yes, westminster is an expert at fiddling accounts, just look at the mp's expenses
"thats odd bladesman
the scots want out of the uk union for exactly the same reasons you want out of the eu?"
Whats new then?
"This is why politics in this country is a pantomime. This isn't an informed, balanced editorial looking at the pros and cons of the debate and encouraging a democratic decision making process; this is an editorial that assumes we are all simpletons and can only make decisions when bombarded with emotive, terror strewn language designed to coerce and confuse.
Ridiculous."
"""British farmers, who have prospered under the Common Agricultural Policy, will find they become dependent on whatever mean-spirited British system of farm support that replaces it"".
Why would we need to implement any system of state financial support for farmers? New Zealand ditched all their agricultural subsidies in the 1980s with no obvious ill effects, indeed their agricultural sector went on to thrive.."
If UK leaving the eurozone will be saved,if not will fall into the trap of euro.
"Be careful what you wish for, people. All those ex pats that could be sent home from EU countries -- the pensioners in Spain, France and Portugal; the ESP industry to name but a few -- will put a massive strain on the UK's systems and infrastructure.
I would hazard a guess that the no vote have no inkling about how the EU works, what day to day benefits it brings, what a Brexit would entail (the FTSE would tank for a start). Reminds me of people I know who rail against Europe but are happy to spend summer holidays in a French house owned by UK relatives. Anyone who votes for an EU exit needs their head examining!
What next? Leave NATO and the UN too? The Tories have f*cked up a hell of a lot in my 40+ years on this planet but condemning the country to a future of Little-Englander (splendid) isolationism..... The mind boggles. And don't forget all you UKIP supporters and Mail readers, it was Winston's idea in the first place!"
"So the expats who spend their money in these countries will be sent home really?
You are conflating Europe and EU, if you do not know the difference you should not post here
Leaving EU leads to leaving NATO, words fail me. Tell me how you draw this conclusion
Ah yes finally we have it the Little Englander put down. Do you people not get it people feel tratted, constrained within a non democratic centrist EU. The people who want out are Big Worlder's
Finally if you are going to quote Churchill at least get it right. Churchill actually said we should be with Europe but never a part, if we had to choose Britain should always choose the open sea over Europe ie he said we are a world trading nation."
"Do you really think that if the UK withdraws from the EU we will still enjoy freedom of movement, or residence, freedom to own property and freedom to work?
I never said that leaving the EU was the same as leaving NATO. Learn to read you illiterate tw_AT_! We live in 2012, not 1951. Fools like you ought to be put down for the sake of the gene pool!"
"unfortunately in england, they dont give out darwin awards, they elect them,
see under tory party"
"This editorial uses the same argument as all the others for remaining in the EU. That is, the benefits of belonging to a single market.
 and indeed thats what we voted in support of back in the 70's. But thats not what we have now got, is it. Thats not what is pissing people off about the EU project.
To use an argument for staying in the EU emphasising the original reasons whilst ignoring what it has morphed into and the very different organisation we have today with its ambitions for economic and political union and loss of sovereign power by its member states, is to attempt to pull the wool over our eyes in a way that has become all too familiar as the preferred modus operandi of the EU at large.
If the writer truly believes that the UK is better off surrendering economic and political sovereignty to the EU and supports this being imposed by the elite without the owners of that sovereignty having a say ie us the people, why not just come out and say it and have the courage to argue for it. You'll get blown out of the water but at least you'd have been honest."
"unfortunately, an eu referendum offering an in/out option will not be able to take this into account and a eu hostile uk would vote no regardless of what is proposed
all the sensible options have been kicked into touch
what a mess
history will point the finger at brown for not giving the uk a chance to vote on the last treaty, even if we had voted no, we would be in a better position now than we will be when the result of the in/out referendum is eventually announced.
whichever way you look at it, all of the political parties and the uk population are in deep sh1t"
For a generation the Tories and the predominately right wing media have encouraged a mindless demonisation based on the 'blue rinse' prejudices of much of the electorate. All the pet hates of the paranoid, self-centered and insular are curried to political and fiscal end......these hatreds ranging from the poor and disabled to anyone seen, no matter how incorrectly, as a threat. If it were not for some of the European checks on some of this paranoia, the vulnerable in this country would now be in even more desperate straits. It will be a disaster for the UK to leave the EU.
"Pro remaining in the EU (not exclusive):
- Cheaper mobile and data roaming rates than a few years ago; cheaper and more transparent European travel on low-cost airlines. Anti-discrimination rules in the workplace. Brought to you by your friendly Commission in Brussels.
- Go to any public building in the north of England built in the past 20 years. Chances are there will be a plaque somewhere stating ""part-financed by European structural funds"", with a blue flag and 12 stars.
- Nissan and other car manufacturers have set up shop in the UK because it provides both skilled labour for production and unfettered access to a large market. Take the latter away, can the former really not be found in competing EU countries?
- It is incorrect that ""international trade rules"", presumably meaning the GATT/WTO, would provide the same protection against unfair tariffs or other trade-impeding practices as the EU rules. If you compare the WTO dispute settlement mechanisms to that of the EU, you will find them vastly inferior in terms of length of proceedings, costs, access for traders and enforceability of decisions.
- The EU does not hinder stronger UK global exports. According to the WTO, the UK is the sixth largest trader in the world, but only the third in the EU, after Germany and France; if only looking at services it is third globally, but in the EU still behind Germany. For example, it seems safe to say Germany is able to sell much more to China overall, although being subject to the same EU rules. Therefore the reason for any lack of global UK exports must be non-EU ones.
- If a non-EU UK wanted to continue trading with the then rest-EU, and it will, it would still have to fulfill product requirements, workers qualifications etc. as set by EU regulations and directives, without however being in the room when those rules are made. EFTA, but non-EU member Norway has a higher implementation rates of the EUs laws than most EU countries.
- Sure the UK can ask for a renegotiation of the treaties. But for a trade you have to offer something. What can the UK offer presently that would make Paris and Berlin blink? It is ludicrous to say that a 60+ million people UK market could negotiate terms of trade as good as or better than the present ones with a post-withdrawal EU, more than seven times its size, fully developed in terms of alternatives, and 26 other states ready to prefer their own companies."
"Britain's mass car industry will head to low-cost countries that have remained in the EU
Not true. The UK is best known for premium and sports car marques such as Aston Martin, Bentley, Daimler, Jaguar, Lagonda, Land Rover, Lotus, McLaren, MG, Mini, Morgan and Rolls-Royce. These have all shown growth and demand in growing and emerging economies outside the EU; some 55% of UK vehicle production is sold outside of Europe, with only 20% - 30% going to other EU countries. The UK has competitive advantage in car production in several areas - high productivity, excellent sea transport links and of course our workforce speaks English, the commercial world's lingua franca.
Airbus production will migrate to Germany and France.
False. It is already being migrated to China. Of Airbus' global workforce of around 57,000 just 9,600 are employed in the UK. The consortium has already opened both an assembly plant for the A320 and a component manufacturing plant in China, which is set to gain from a gradual migration of jobs from the EU. the company has already shed 10,000 jobs in the EU since 2007 and more are set to follow.
It was partly because Germany now anticipates Britain leaving the EU that Berlin vetoed BAe's deal with the defence giant EADS. It did not want Europe's defence industry to be concentrated in a non-EU member.
Some truth here - but the advantages are mutual. ""As of 2008 Britain has become the worlds leading developer of arms with British company BAE Systems. Defence group BAE Systems is the first company outside the U.S. to reach the top position,thanks to a deal with the Pentagon for mine-resistant vehicles to be used in Iraq and Afghanistan. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a defence think tank, the former British Aerospace group's arms sales are ahead of American market leaders Lockheed Martin and Boeing."" US arms sales make up about 60% of BAe's activity - and US markets would be at risk from 'leaky' and insecure European arms operations.
The financial services industry will be regulated on terms set in Brussels and be powerless to resist.
This is just sheer nonsense, worthy of a post of its own to rebut.
British farmers, who have prospered under the Common Agricultural Policy, will find they become dependent on whatever mean-spirited British system of farm support that replaces it. Farms will survive by industrial farming, devastating the beloved English countryside.
This from a paper that normally whines about CAP payments going disproportionately to the UK's richest landowners?
Tax avoidance and evasion will reach crippling levels as our economy becomes increasingly wholly owned by foreign multinationals that make tax avoidance in Britain central to their business strategy.
What, companies such as Starbucks, Amazon and eBay that currently contribute such vast amounts of tax to the UK Treasury under the EU single market?
Of course, our direct budget contribution saving of £20bn a year, £17bn reduction in food costs from scrapping the CAP, £3.3bn from reclaiming our fish stocks from the CFP and de-regulation savings of perhaps £15bn a year are nowhere mentioned by the Euphiles. Nor are England's vast shale-gas reserves in our 200 mile limit in the North Sea. Nor the tsunami of increased trade with the Anglophone Commonwealth, currently restricted from EU markets. But expect the Euphiles to fight like cornered rats - they're not going to give up all they gain at our expense easily."
"Britain's mass car industry will head to low-cost countries that have remained in the EU Not true. The UK is best known for premium and sports car marques such as Aston Martin, Bentley, Daimler, Jaguar, Lagonda, Land Rover, Lotus, McLaren, MG, Mini, Morgan and Rolls-Royce. These have all shown growth and demand in growing and emerging economies outside the EU; some 55% of UK vehicle production is sold outside of Europe, with only 20% - 30% going to other EU countries. The UK has competitive advantage in car production in several areas - high productivity, excellent sea transport links and of course our workforce speaks English, the commercial world's lingua franca.
All but one of these companies cater to niche markets. Mini by the way is owned by BMW. Of course these markets contribute a postive steam of income from overseas sales. However, these incomes streams are small potatoes compared to that generated by the mass volume producers in Japan, the US, Germany, South Korea, China, and perhaps even Brazil. The UK now produces less than 5% of world output, comparable to Mexico. And the vast majority of this output is produced by foreign car makers based in the UK. One of the important reasons for their presence is the fact that the UK serves as an export platform for the EU. It is a method of jumping tariff barriers by the likes of Nissan, Mazda, and Ford should they be erected. If Britain leaves the EU therefore it is questionable whether these companies would wish to remain in the UK as one of the principal reasons for their presence is precisely the UK's EU membership.
Yet another eurosceptic short on facts and long on opinions."
"As is Rolls Royce. Jaguar-Land Rover are owned by Ford. Daimler is German. MG is owned by the Nanjing automotive group. Bentley is owned by Volkswagen.
I can't be arsed to look the rest up but when has reality ever troubled the Eurosceptic ranters?"
"Here in Finland the Euro- and EU-sceptics live in a parallel universe. Now, the UK forms some 14% of the largest economy in the world, the EU. but only that. The remaining 86% would rank us at least as #2.
Rest assured: should you exit, your car industry would either be moved elsewhere or you would compete with Chinese wages for subcontracts from VW and BMW.
However, I would welcome your departure as you don't carry your weight."
"And back in the real world the European South is collapsing, and at some point you're going to have to turn around to your country folks and tell them there not going to have as much money spent on them as money is invested in the South instead to guarantee the future of the Euro and free movement of labour.
It is not just decision time for the UK!"
"unfortunately, the only way that ukip can win is if the eu crumbles as well, which is why nigel spends most of his time trying to convince the rest of the eu to disband.
what ukip really wants is for the eu to just go away
wont happen though"
"What I often find amusing about politics is that some think it's cosmetic. It's like we're just choosing our favourite pop group. People can have heated debates about which is best, but in the end, it sort of doesn't really matter.
But politics isn't really like that at all because decisions have ramifications. Whilst those ramifications aren't apparent, it is just like choosing one's favourite pop group, eventually however there comes a day when the real world catches up. Today the real world has come calling and it demands an answer to the following choice: greater fiscal and political union and europe can keep the euro project, but significant groups will pay heavily in the short term, or an end to the project and a different set of losers.
There's no hiding the winners and losers anymore - it's going to get nasty."
"good post testy
i am reminded of serbia who told the rest of the world to f off and that they didnt need them
i think unemployment reached 80% in belgrade before they strung up their leaders.
i think brown will be held responsable for the unfolding fiasco for not allowing a referendum on the last treaty,
the eu might change going forward but i think it is unlikely to disintegrate completely, it will still be there regardless of what we in the uk do"
"Yes, we are supporting the UK banks and tax havens now, but the EU economy can handle that.
When you are gone and even dissolve your Union, to become a group of totally insignificant little kingdoms, we'll subcontract some simple assembly work to you."
except that the remaining EU oil, gas, fresh water and fish will be in scotland
"Personally, I'm reluctant to debate the UK's place in Europe without considering the wider future of Europe, because I just can't see us pulling out without wider European and global support. But I think the european debate is going to get messy because its harder to hide the implications both here and in europe. Twenty years ago most people didn't give a shit whether we were in or out. Until recently the debate was kind of meaningless because no one felt the implications. On one side you had the eurosophisticates who loved the romanticism of europe (no doubt somewhat influenced by their love for wine and the south of France), and europhobes who were suspicious of Johnny Foreigner and his greasy food and ways - it was an aesthetic choice. Of course there were those who knew their onions on both sides of the fence, but in the mainstream there was no traction, no proper debate.
Now we (Europe at large) are at where we are at. My real fear is that a decision will not be made about Europe's future, because that is the worst of all paths. Unfortunately, it seems to be the most convenient path: that way no one gets to be the harbinger of bad news. So whilst Europe goes to ruin our rulers can raise their hands and say - nowt to do with me!"
"?
The opinion of other countries will be irrelevant to any referendum vote. Those voting ""out"" will do so on the basis that the UK, by itself, will still matter as it did 100 years ago."
"Right. Forgot selling your assets, including fishing rights. Why would we treat you differently from West Africans? We have gunboats...
Meanwhile we buy oil and gas from Russia."
my concern isnt the ruin of Europe, they will be just fine. it is the ruin of the uk or ruk, neither of which will be good for scotland
I don't see why it's of any concern to you. Given that Scotland's getting a referendum, why are you worried? If Scotland's an independent country then whether or not what remains of the UK is in the EU is absolutely none of your business. I don't know why you're getting so worked up about the issue.
"finnish gunboats.......wow, there's a novel thought
im pro eu by the way
but the remaining HC european resources are in scotland, so although a small kingdom, not completely irrelevant
of course finland and russia have a long history of amicable relations and russia would never blow up a pipeline and cut off europe or finland's oil supply
oh.........wait.........no"
"you are right of course cucumber, when the ruk votes on the eu, it wont be any of my business, however, i wish a prosperous future for scotland
i have no wish to see the ruk go down the tubes"
Now you're just being patronising. Why not focus on your own country rather than butt into somebody else's? I'm sure we can all live without your pearls of wisdom.
Your post defines irony.
"apparently scotland isnt in the uk, alex salmond has been hoodwinked
or is this just another example of finnish gunboat diplomacy"
Note to subs. Please change "The best in Britain" to "The betrayers of Britain". Then it will be factually correct.
"I think this article is elitist, patronising, dishonest - and disgustingly anti-democratic.
I'm not aware of much, if any, anti-European feeling in this country. No one I know refuses to drink French wine or eat Italian food or visit Spain or Holland. There is of course plenty of antipathy to the EU as a political institution - but that's another matter.
And what is this ""project"" in the penultimate sentence? What are its goals? When have the objectives of this project ever been spelt out clearly by politicians or included in election manifestos?
Worst of all, you talk about appeasement, as though British public opinion was some kind of dictator with which a shabby deal needed to be reached. But, dear Observer, I have to tell you this, as you seem unaware of it: in a democracy, public opinion is something that everyone, no matter whether they are the ""best"" or not, needs to acknowledge, respect and engage with - but never ""appease""."

at least scotland will, either that or alex salmond will get the lions share of westminsters rebate
"Fishing grounds which are empty of fish!
Great!"
they will be if scotland doesnt vote yes in 2014
"If Britain leaves Europe, we will become a renegade without economic power
And if we stay in we will become even more submissive and completely powerless!
Some choice, huh?"
"LIke all the others who live in the media bubble in centrist London you simply cannot abide the thought that ordinary folk want to have a decisive say in whether or not we stay in the EU.
They may listen to your argument, they may agree or disagree with it, but above all else they want to decide one way or another. It is called democracy Mr. Editor."
Just heard on the news that Jaguar and Land Rover to start production in China.
"DeeDee99
Pre 1972, the UK was an independent, self-governing nation.
Was it ********! We haven't been an independent, self-governing nation since Keynes had to go cap in hand to the US for a loan in 1946, the price of which was the ending of the UK's system of imperial preference. We haven't had an independent foreign policy since the US told us to stop the incursion into Suez in 1956. It seems to me that the eurosceptics have had some sort of historical and geo-political by-pass ideologically inserted and are unable to tell fact from fantasy."

"scotch is what the yanks call whisky
the point i was making was 95% of britains fishing grounds are in scotland
what the scots decide to do with them after 2014 is none of westminsters business"
Wouldn't the best strategy for the UK be to stay on the sidelines for the time being at least- if the Eurozone collapses in the next couple of years would our membership have any influence either way?
This time last year, I distinctly remember being told the Euro was going to collapse, or explode, or vapourise, or all of these. And it was far from the first time.
It's not looking good- wonder what the Germans think about their credit rating being questioned because of monetary union?
I don't think now would be the time to be going for full monetary union, surely the best thing the Uk could do would be to take a backseat & do nothing?
"In or out of the EU we are under the power of the rentier class stupor rich.
Sort THAT out."
"i thought it was already down the tube and past the U bend.
isnt this why the scots are offski?"
"What the middle class doesn't like to hear and likes even less to publish is the continual downward spiral of the global economy.
The middle class wants sugar to the ears. Hence being in or out of the EU is irrelevant except for the sudden price rises that would result on leaving.
The real problem is all the pension funds investing in anything other than industry at home and a City of London (the real City of London which is within the old roman walls) which is acting as a separate state to Britain anyway."
"I'm in favour of greater European integration, however the problem is the pace of change. The Euro Zone was created prematurely, and the free movement of labour was likewise too soon and too fast. Now everything has snowballed. Basically Europe is at the crossroad - we have to deal with the problems caused by bad decisions made twenty years ago - no matter what we're going to eat shit.
Down one road is greater fiscal and political integration to counter balance the effect of the Euro and free labour. But this will almost certainly mean a flow of tax revenue from the richer European states to poorer areas. In the short term this means less generous benefits in countries such as Britain, France, Germany etc. In the long run, hopefully the increased growth brought about through greater infrastructure development in the poorer countries will offset this cost, but let's not pretend that in the short term this option will be good for the British poor. Notably Labour has a problem with its base - can it sell a less generous wealth state in the short term? Could it be that the British ""Left"" (in inverted commas, because there's an argument to be made whether these people are actually left wing) may actually do more damage to the poor in the short term than the Tories?
Down the other road is a break up of the Euro and a return to stronger labour restrictions. This route would devastate the European south and in the long run would weaken Europe globally, but unlike the other route it is less contingent on everyone pulling their weight and doesn't damage the interests of the poor in Britain, France and Germany to the same extent.
One other option is to do nothing - but that means almost certain disaster in a couple of years for everyone - so let's not go there.
(One final note - no matter what option Europe chooses it needs to do something about the parasitical ECHR (not technically part of the EU). This ""Court"" is anti-democratic and to my mind borderline criminal - actually axe the borderline part.)"
"I find these alarmist leaders about the dire fate of the UK leaving the EU pretty tiring. Yes, it's likely the UK will leave - there's just too many potential bust-ups (budget, bank regulation, fiscal centralisation) likely to be coming down the line.
But the country will still have trade access, assuming it stays in the EEA, and passes the relevant legislation that keeps it up with EEA regulations. The world really won't change that much, and the country would certainly not become a ""renegade"".
Yes, it would have little economic power, but then it doesn't have much anyway.
For the EU, too, it would be a great benefit. Having a big country with an identity crisis brought on by european integration just makes the decisions-making a lot harder."
"I, as a formerly enthusiastic and nowadays ""skeptical pro-European"" German, appreciate very much the counter weights in the EU.
The Scandinavians, also the Brits (as long as they're not as ideological or permanently wavering).
I also want to wait with even deeper integration and pure majority decisions on the EU level. Hence, I would deem the remaining of a calculable and critical UK as an advantage.
What more can I say?
Oh yes, if nothing helps and you still like to get out, please don't do it in 2014. I'm afraid, I expect that then we will still not be out of the worst. We will have some recovery then but not enough.
A petulant, childish insistence that it has to be ""now"" and not a ""second"" later could harm us all very much because a Brexit from the EU would unsettle the markets enormously, trust in European (and British) economy would suffer - at least for quite a time.
Plus, even if finally agreeable relations would be confirmed between the EU and a non-EU UK, the necessary negotiations would take months (easily one year).
So, I'd regard it as reasonable and logical to wait untile Europe is in a growth period for a bit longer. Then, with good preparation, if you still are determined, well, then leave.
My proposal: Wait 'til 2016 or so. Come on, dear Brits, you're in here for 39 years, does it matter if you'll leave after 41 or 43 years?
I mean, I especially direct this to the Little Englanders here. Can you follow my factual argumentation? Aren't you proud that Britain has often proven to act rationally? Then it would be fine if you don't indulge in your mania and consider these general implications, too.
;-)"
"You make all these statements of how bad it will be without any underpinning facts - you rival the BBC in your lack of depth, perception and impartiality.
And what about the UK's integrity? Do we want to be part of a 'union' who cna't even get its accounts audited? That is being milked by all and subdry?
Why are France and Germany desperate to keep Greece in the EU? Because they want to recoup the monies their institutions loaned Greece at the time her accounts were doctored to give her admittance into the EU.
The whole thing is a nest of vipers and self-interest (including that of the USA). We can do better!
http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucosts.html
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html"
"The ECB is not printing money. It was US and UK bankers who took down the world economy.
Leave the EU, in the short term unemployment and food prices will double."
"You do realise that is complete hogwash. If the European project is to continue with the Euro and free movement of labour, tax revenue will have to be moved from the European North to the European South to build up infrastructure. This will almost certainly lead to a diminution of social security in countries such as Britain, France and Germany. There is no free lunch!
It's time that people began to talk more honestly about the implications of greater European integration. Don't get me wrong, there are benefits to growth with greater European integration, but there are winners and losers, especially in the short term!"
"You are at it again. But, as we all were taught at school:  Read up on geography.
On second thought; did you perhaps mean to say ""If Britain leaves the European Union ..."" ?"
Geographically, but you Norsemen have little in common with us Europeans.
"The £ devalued against the Euro
Before 2008
£ = 1.40+ Euro
Now £ = 1.20 Euro"
Despite my belief in small government, the UK should stay in the European Union.
Please just have your vote,wave your flags of St George and fuck right off.Leave the rest of us to get on with it.It will not have any effect?.Why do you think Honda are eyeing up a site in the Czech Republic to replace Swindon?.The rest will follow.But the wonderful,reliable City Of London will look after you all,will it not?.And all the whining about "lack of democracy".This from a foggy little dump of in Island with FPTP.Very democratic.The Empire is gone,manufacturing industry is gone,Your only hope was to carry on being an assembly plant for foreign companies.
What a wonderfully racist little rant
"Oh great lets look forward to a little right wing / UKIP paradise:
In order to compete with the rest of the world we can look forwards to:

Abolishment of the minimum wage - well, the working man has got to compete with developing countries you know.
Abolishment of the higher tax rate - we have to encourage the better off to work hard, its good for us all don't be envious!
.
Reduction in union powers - we can't have them throwing spanners in the wo
Who says we needs to reduce the pay differential between workers, only the envious! Big pay differentials are an insentive for us all to move up the ladder! I should know, my family ONLY started off with a million 30 years ago, now we are worth 50 million.
What do you mean? ""Germany has lower pay differentials, a more productive economy, a fairer society and good industrial relations"". Typical Germans - who won the bloody war anyway?
Well I'm just off to polish my picture of Nigel Firage (ex investment banker) and put it back on the mantle piece."
"This will happen anyway to protect to the Euro and free movement of labour as money is directed to infrastructure in poorer Europe. Not necessarily a bad thing, just not necessarily great for the UK poor.

Again, in the short term the European project is making such demands anyway.

As the market rebalances in Europe following the formation of the Euro and free movement of labour, the influence of unions had diminished anyway, and will continue to diminish if the European project is continued - for the foreseeable future."
"People say we will lose influence if we leave - what influence??? The EU has been run for decades in the interests of Germany and France. With the enlarged EU, most of which are net beneficiaries, we stand no chance in controlling the budget - they will just outvote us for more and more. At the moment we have a veto, but everyone knows the veto will only be used to get a minor reduction in the proposed budget and we will still be paying more and more.
But to who? To an organisation who cannot produce audited accounts for nearly 2 decades. A corrupt and wasteful organisation.
I have no problem with a free trade area, which is what the original EEC was. Trade benefits everyone. But the continued interference in every part of our lives; and the effective disenfranchising of the British people who have to follow EU commission directives and look on as our elected pariament is powerless, is righly an affront to our freedom."
i think scotland is offski because the ruk looks like pulling out of the eu, and the desire to be rid of westminster which the scots consider to be an unaccountable mafia type organisation
"Disagree - the independence question arose long before there was any possibility whatsoever of the UK leaving Europe (even now it is a fairly remote possibility).
Rather Scotish independence became an issue with the advent of North Sea Oil. Yes - there has long been a tiny group wanting independence, but they were not significant till the oil arrived (at about the same time as the disgraceful settlement with the EU about fishing rights, which also had a big impact)"

"Excellent. You've laid out the problems in a nutshell. There was a right way to go about the Euro and free movement of labour, and a wrong way: the political classes choose the wrong way and now its decision time.
It's either greater fiscal and political integration - which in short means less money spent nationally and more money spent across the union. The fiscal readjustment will create significant winners and losers, and this is what the elites aren't willing to face. They want a way of doing it without anyone noticing.
Or it's the break up of the current euro project."
"What a thoughtful well constructed and, to my mind, very plausible article.
I fear that, if we withdraw from the EU, Britain will become an increasingly embittered and poor country, as it slowly becomes apparent that the Europsceptic's slogans, heralding a new golden age of freedom and prosperity upon withdrawal, turn out to be so much dross."
Love the scare stories about the car industry - South Korea exports 500,000 cars a year to the EU without ant quotas, tariffs or restrictions via a free trade agreement
That shiny new 'Korean' Kia C'eed is actually made in Slovakia. In the Eurozone.
So what , they still export half a million cars a year - made in South Korea ( hardly a low cost economy)
Well the People, the taxpayers and Electors don't agree that we will become a renegade without economic power. They think you are wrong and that your judgement is poor, even worse than the poor judgement of those at present running Europe..
Most voters do not want to leave the EU, they just want to be part of the Common Market they originally voted for. For example, a recent poll for yougov showed that while voters did not want a federal Europe they would prefer a relationship with Europe based on trade and the single market as they originally voted for to complete withdrawal!
"I have moved from being a confirmed EUphile to being more of a EUskeptic. However, on balance I still believe that the UK should remain an active member of the EU, seeking to reform rather than carp from the sidelines. Leaving the EU will not be in the UK's interests and will be a decision arising from ill-informed nationalist emotion rather than informed logic.
If we do leave, then we will be completely on the outside. We will not be allowed into EFTA and I foresee a future of tariffs and visas.
But it now seems inevitable that there will be a referendum and that the vote will be to leave. The EUROzone crisis, the EUphobia of most of the press and the complete failure of EUphiles to articulate why should remain in the EU without resorting to sneering, will make sure of that."
"What a profound observation. Please tell us TAXPAYERS, who fund this 'MAGIC-CIRCLE,
give us just ONE TANGIBLE SIGNIFICANT BENEFIT. That our £5,000,000,000 (5 billions) paid every year since 1973, has actually bought for us.
We were promised that it would be GOOD-FOR-BRITAINS TRADE if we joined the COMMON MARKET.
There has not been a single year, since 1973, when Britain has had a TRADE-SURPLUS with Europe
For the ruling-elite, the chattering classes, it has been an absolute orgy of trough-feeding,
60% of what is refferred to as EUROPEAN UNION FISHING WATERS, was our TERRITORAL WATERS until 1973, over fished by every one of our '''partners'' except Britain,
The ENGLISH PEOPLE WANT OUT, the polls show more than 80% will vote to leave when given a vote.
You movers and shakers, can go and work in Europe which you so admire."
SHOUTING simply makes your post look SILLY

Indeed. Once we leave the EU, there will likely be a demand that all citizens of EU member states without UK citizenship and rights of permanent residence be forced to apply for a visa to remain. Cue retaliation in kind.
"The interesting finding in the poll is that 44% of the 18 to 24 group want to remain in the EU, with 25% opposed. Perhaps they have a real grasp of where the real future for the UK lies. The ideas pedalled by various dreamers of re-negotiating our relationship with the EU were hit very firmly on the head by the Polish Foreign Minister in a speech he gave at Blenheim Palace on September 21st. The revitalised European Movement has produced a press release that should have been posted on the front pages of our woefully unsupportive press, and needs to be read by everyone both for and against.
The current terrible situation in Greece is as much the result of the activities crooked politicians as it is of the politics of the market. It is not the fault of the EU that we are in hoc to the 'wisdom' of Standard and Poor and other unaccountable soothsayers"
"i think this is the entire problem, what does in/out actually mean?
if the uk pulls out, it wont become irrelevant, it will sink under the waves"
Perhaps the only way in which the UK public may be persuaded to vote "In" is to be made aware of the consequences of leaving - isolation will not be glorious.
"it should never have been allowed to come to an in/out situation
the uk is now eu hostile because brown didnt allow a vote on the last treaty, the only possible outcome is now a no
i expect cameron will scrabble about and try to come up with another treaty that he can present to the public to reject
if not, there will not be a referendum
even tory politician type turkeys dont vote for xmas"
"No, the UK is now EU hostile because of the Eurozone crisis and a constant litany of EUphobic articles from most of the press, coupled with the fact that most Tory MPs see the UK leaving the EU as their life's mission.




There will almost certainly be a referendum. Most Tory MPs want one and Labour sees it as a means of obtaining tactical advantage.
Personally, I think we need one to lance the boil, but it does mean that those who want the UK to remain in the EU really need to get their shit together.

You obviously have not being paying attention to the utterances of Tory backbenchers."
"guilty as charged
i never listen to tory back benchers
i do however watch This Week where all of the guests, including portillo said it would never happen, even if the tories promised one in the 2015 GE
(what portillo actually said was that since all the other parties have promised a referendum and then reneged on their promises, whats the problem!!!!!)
the labour spokeswomen said, the labour party will definately not propose one during the 2015 GE
i think we do need to lance this boil, agreed, i also agree with your point about the negative eu press
i just cant see how to do this? unless we can convince the eu to come up with a new treaty with more powers going to brussels, which cameron can then put forward in a referendum for the public to reject.
a yes vote in 2014 in scotland, will be blamed on the eu by the ruk. the bitter together campers have already started this line of attack.
i wouldnt look to scotland for help, they are busy frying other fish at the mo"
"""i wouldnt look to scotland for help, they are busy frying other fish at the mo""
Mars Bars shurely?"
"Well, Cameron certainly will be listening to them.

Portillo? ROLF.
There will be a referendum, if not before 2015, certainly afterwards. The momentum for one is now unstoppable.

Easy. Parliament votes for one."
"snigger
i did think of putting in that comment myself, but i thought i'd leave it for you"
"beggars cant be choosers
kinda short of tory spokesmen in scotland
however, the labour spokeswomen(i cant remember her name) is presently in the shadow cabinet and stated quite clearly that labour wont be offering a eu referendum
if portillo is so far from the mark, why did the majority of the tory back benchers vote against having one a few months back?

so the out option is............what?.............roll back everything to a point pre 1970's? cos that is what the public will want, as you rightly pointed this is because of the anti eu mince the uk media spits"
"And the relevance of that to the UK as a whole is?

Really?

Read this
Nearly half voted in favour, despite a 3 line whip. In a free vote, most probably would do the same.

Yes, that is what an increasing number of Brits seem to want.
The EU is an unlovable institution whose apparatchiks tend to be somewhat arrogant. Add to this the Eurozone crisis, and those arguing for the UK to remain in, have an uphill task."
"it is because of this same lack of tories is the reason why the uk is about to cease to exist.........irrelevant?

yes really,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nqn6j/This_Week_01_11_2012/
it isnt an uphill struggle. it is an impossible task which will only get worse when the scots go"
"The thousands of lies peddled by the media about the EU can be seen here:
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/"
"Most people have completely missed the point - Britain is nowhere near being an internationalist nation, it's a deeply insular country full of monolingual citizens who revel in past glories whilst failing to understand that the most successful nations will be those with the best networks, regional and global. The debate in this county has been hijacked by a bunch of flag waving lunatics who just don't get the 21st century. What is more alarming is finding that most Euroscepticism comes from over 55's - so the future path of this nation is going to be determined by people who grew up in the post-war era. The British people have been breathtaking manipulated over the last 30 years, and not by the EU.
The are some British people who are adverse to a multicultural society, but what they don't comprehend is those nations that are conformist and insular will eventually wither from the vine. Variety and change keep things fresh and help innovation. Funnily enough I see other EU counties as being far more international that Britain will ever be with their multilingualism and flexibility.
Bottom line is, it's nothing to do with the EU, but the inability of a large number of Brits to deal with Globalisation. Most Brits assume that the 21st century will be a repeat of the late 20th century, oh dear..."
"I have just returned from a 3 week holiday in Australia. The Aussie government's policy is now to focus on Asia. The UK, frankly, apart from lingering emotional connections, is now less and less economically relevant even to Australia.
If we leave the EU, do not expect that our former colonies will come to our rescue, as they did in the World Wars."
Point being, who is talking the EU up in this country? How can anyone make an informed decision when the perception of the EU is twisted by clear vested and antagonistic interest. (Murdoch press inc.)
The EU is not a socialist project.
"Really? EC President Manuel Barroso (ex?)Maoist. EP President Martin Shultz also leader of the Socialists in EP. High Representative and EC VP Baroness Ashton Labour Peer and ex CND administrator.
If it walks like a duck!"
"""An Observer poll shows majority in favour of EU exit""
It's called democracy - something the  appears not to like."
The use of that term automatically disqualifies your opinion from serious consideration.
"""The use of that term automatically disqualifies your opinion from serious consideration""
It's called Comment is Free, Not RichardDouglass66 is the ultimate arbiter"
"Oooh, that told me!!
I quite agree that you are free to post what you want, no matter how daft it is."
Is Norway a renegade without economic power?
"What a weaselly editorial this is. The Guardian just gets worse and worse.
Did you read todays's so-called news item ""Cut health and education not industrial base, says Sir John Parker""? Written as if demands like this are perfectly normal and reasonable. And no comments allowed from readers."
"There will have to be two sets of terms and condition for the new EU, one set for those in the EZ and one for those who are not.
It's reckoned that it will take until at least 2015 for the commission to decide what the new sets of rules will be. It's likely that by then the poll figure for those wishing to leave in 2015 will be much higher after the next wave of east European immigration from Bulgaria and Romania starting Jan 2014 - possibly around 80%. Will it matter what the view of the public is on the EU, even if 90% of the public are against remaining?
Our politicians are weak ditherers so whatever happens are extremely unlikely to get a good deal for the UK as that would go against all previous experience. Basically they cannot cut it.
The EU and UK according to OECD predictions will continue to be the economic low growth areas of the world for decades to come with growth rates of less than 2% pa. The average for the world will be over 3% and high growth areas will be much more than that.
In part low growth will be due to eternal high debt and in part due to ever-rising unfunded ageing costs carried by a declining work-force and in part due to the lack of EU interest in competing in the private sector with the world. The EU is a navel gazer on par excellence.
The world is a fossil fuel economy and analysts reckon those regions without their own resources will lose out in economic growth. The EZ is an area with little in the way of fossil fuel resources. In contrast the US has huge amounts of cheap fracking gas which analysts reckon will lead to a growth spurt there.
No matter how the EU organises itself it cannot escape the massive debt burden and its ageing demographics and the lack of drive to win in competition with the rest of the world.
The reality is EU companies will want to be places where the economic growth will be and that's not going to be the EU. Inevitably investment will move out of the EU to areas of the world that are far more profitable. It's already happening.
The rest of the world will have the staff the companies need at much cheaper rates and in quantity. Business taxes will be lower because of not having to carry ageing costs. A win-win-win situation for business
EU Professionals will be increasing attracted to the rest of the world as in low growth economies opportunities for advancement are far more restricted (dead men's shoes) thus creating a long term UK/EU brain drain of wealth creators.
Already New York is taking business from the City along with Hong Kong.
The EU is going to become an economic backwater far distant from the areas of the world with high economic growth."
"There are obviously some valid points in this Observer editorial but there is unfortunately, even disgracefully, no criticism of the EU as it operates today and has done so for many years. To take one example: is it not true that for the 18th year running the Court of Auditors of the EU has refused to sign off the annual EU budget? If it happened to the UK budget/Finance Act each year this newspaper would be quite rightly up in arms! Both the CAP & CFP assist those who do not need assistance i.e. Occupy's '1%' thus fleecing the EU taxpayers as well as discriminating against good quality cheaper produce from the developed world. Also the sight of MEPs being filmed at start of the day impatiently demanding their allowances for attendance at work on a Friday and then immediately rushing home understandably riles Europe's electorate and taxpayers*, as well the new 'EU Foreign Ministry' in Brusselles when there are surely buildings that they could rent during the Great Recession. Lastly but not least is the rush to create a single currency in a hurry by the millennium, and to include Italy that didn't meet the financial criteria but it had to be let in because it was one of the original 'Six' opened the floodgates for the 'New Accession States' that could not obviously comply.
Economically a properly thought out banking union would make some sense but if there is one lesson that can be learnt from modern European history is that any power that dominates even if it does so for largely enlightened self-interest like Germany's economic pre-eminence today will be resisted both for negative and positive reasons by Europe's peoples. A more realistic and democratic EU taking into account national parliaments rather than the remote EU Parliament would help. I frequently contact my Westminster MP, and my MEPs at one time not infrequently but today does any individual bother? At least our fellow UK citizens in Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland have the advantage of more clout inside the EU that those living in England - at present.
During the Sixties the American journalist Drew Middleton (who knew the UK well) wrote 'The Supreme Choice', arguing that Britain should join the EC. Today in a different world in which even the US is in slow decline (in 2000 the US attracted 44% of of world foreign investment while today it is 17%) while the EU is a supplicant for monies from an emerging China that is ambivalent about its new position in the world both the UK & France (these P5 UN states) even the EU itself seems old hat to the BRIC and other emerging capitalist economies. It may not be the 'Supreme Choice' that Britain faces but a 'Catch 22': be a committed if critical EU member and lose much of its sovereignty in economic affairs or try to have a relationship outside the EU but remain part of the EEA like Norway (without the oil) and play off this new weakened relationship with the US and the BRIC states et cetera. Neither option is the glad confident morning of Middleton's Sixties' 'Supreme Choice'."
"The large majority of Britain do not want to be part of a European federal state - which is where the Eurozone ultimately has to end up if the monetary union is to be preserved. They don't even want to join the Euro in the first place, which is why no government in the UK has ever dared to hold the necessary referendum on that proposition.
It is becoming increasingly clear that the EU is evolving into the creature of the Eurozone federation, whose members together constitute a large enough caucus to drive through any decision at the wider EU level without reference to the needs or wishes of the non-Euro states. The veto is not even effective in those few instances where unanimity is still required - as Mr Cameron's recent experience demonstrates, all that will follow any future vetoes over EU decisions will be exasperated tutting from the Eurozone, followed by a separate treaty which effectively gets around the roadblock.
All that the wider EU is now, really, is just a waiting room for countries that are waiting to join the inner circle that is the Eurozone, with all of the non-Euro countries increasingly coming to resemble so many Norways taking a large chunk of their legislative programme directly from a machinery in Brussels over which they have little or no say. For countries which do hope to accede to the Eurozone at the earliest opportunity then such a temporary derogation of their rights might be tolerated in the interests of pragmatism, but for Britain we are going to be left in that position permanently if we stay within the EU under the existing terms of membership.
The editorial says we risk becoming powerless if we leave the EU. Given that it seems unlikely that the other members would have any particular interest in renegotiating exceptional membership terms for us, then we have very little left to lose by exiting the club and establishing friendly relations from outside instead.
Within the EU, Britain is a nuisance to the more federally-minded members of the Project. Outside the EU, it can be a simple friend and trading partner - which is all that the British people ever really wanted in the first place - except for the tiny Eurofanatical fringe, of course. That's why the Observer, as a representative of this clique, has issued this miserable cri de coeur.
And let's have a bit less of this nonsense about the army of sensible Europhiles having been cowed into silence by the overwhelming power of the Eurosceptic press. As we all damn well know, by far the most powerful media organisation in the country, and its dominant cultural institution - the BBC, of course - does not peddle a Eurosceptic agenda at all. Indeed, most of the sceptics think that it is positively biased in the other direction. Newspaper readership is in long-term decline, and the modern-day press barons - Murdoch included - are puny by comparison with the influence of television, to say nothing of social media nipping menacingly at their heels.
At the end of the day, people in Britain want rule from home, not rule from abroad. Faced with that fact, the Eurofederalist camp have no answers, other than to try to imbue enough of the population with their defeatist attitudes as to convince a majority to trudge into captivity. All the evidence so far indicates that their attempts so to do have not only failed, but been entirely counter-productive. The message is clear: Britain wants out. If you want to be part of a federal Europe, then get on a plane to Dublin. Nobody's stopping you."
None shriek so loudly, with greater ignorance, as the EUphobe press.
If the Guardian pertains that the EU is so good for us, pray tell me why Cameron hasn't the spine to a have a public debate with Nigel Farage on the BENEFITS of the EU? I'll tell you why. There are NO good reasons!
"Two-thirds of the public was opposed to Britain's joining the EU but Ted Heath ratted on his promise not to join without ""the whole-hearted consent of parliament and people."" Since then we have been conned left right and centre by an organisation that is so crooked that the auditors have refused to approve its accounts for 18 years. If that had happened in a private company it's directors would be in jail, but EU commissioners cannot be prosecuted. So there are just a few reasons that people despise the EU.
As for the claims that foreign firms would leave, that is nonsense. On the contrary, freed from EU directives they would probably invest more. After all, how is it that two non-members, Norway and Switzerland are so prosperous? The advent of the ill-conceived euro has probably done for the EU anyway. Why should we shackle ourselves to this top-heavy, bureaucratic, unaccountable and undemocratic omnishambles? Leave it to its miserable austerity and decline."
I've got a better suggestion, show us what all these mep's who we send to Europe to on our behalf. I bet you won't be suprised when or if you ever see the results. You will find they do the same there as they do here, sod all. They just get together to siphon of our cash. Don't blame the European idea, blame the scum who sit there and say they do it in our name. Take the tax loopholes?, I bet not one British mep had raised it as an issue. This is about the future of democracy in the west not some Tory/labour play thing. They have destroyed our pride and principles, don't let them destroy European too.
you can see how desperate the Guardian has got when it uses the CAP as a good reason for remaining in the EU. the CAP destroys Africa's farmers ability to compete on an even playing field in Europe. it needs to be abolished by French farmers make up far too large a voting group so no French politician will go anywhere near dismantling it. those French farmers are sucking up our tax money via the CAP, it is not a good reason to stay in the EU
"Another thing I dislike about this article is that it is one sided. The fact that you couldn't mention arguments in favour of leaving the EU, and then analyzing them as to why they are not effective, reminds me of an 11 year olds homework. Sack this ""journalist"" for starters...then leave the EU!
Bring back proper journalism!!"
Oh dear,the propaganda offensive has started early,what a load of alarmist tosh then again the left love to do this just look at their global warming,climate change,climate disruption arguments.
i suppose they will just have to get in line behind all the other johnny foreigners
"Stupidity never stood in the way of a majority of gullible fools intent on economic suicide.
What does Nigel Farage and his crackpot UKIP really offer? Precious little is the answer.
Backward thinking and living in the past. There is lot wrong with this country but membership of the EU is not one of them.
Try corruption in politics, the police, the media and in business for starters."
If you are inferring that is for personal gain then I would be little careful. In my book he and other UKIP MEPs are guilty only of repatriating a small proportion of our hard earned money thrown at the EU every day. They have in the past fallen foul to a rule that says allowances can't be used to further political aims, but given the level of corruption in the EU that has to be taken as a joke.
"Leaving the EU would leave the British people at the mercy of those swivel eyed nutters we see continuously appearing on TV, who froth at the mouth at the thought of subjecting British workers to every right wing policy dreamed up, and no one to protect them.
Fortunately I'm retired, but I fear for my children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, who'll be shafted by the ignorance of their fellow working people, who will have been conned into voting for withdrawal and found out there’s no way back, and these bastards have got them by the short and curlies and are busy trying to recreate Dickens’ Britain."
"Leaving the EU would leave the British people at the mercy of those swivel eyed nutters we see continuously appearing on TV
I don't know which channel you watch. Must be RT I guess, because the appearance of anti-EU politicians on BBC, ITV and Channel 4 is rare indeed.
Why do you Europhiles so underrate the British people that you think we can only make our way in the world tied to he apron strings of a corrupt organisation like the EU? Why do you think so little of our sovereignty and the British constitution that you reject in in favour of being ruled by a foreign power?"
"funny that
the scots want to leave the uk for exactly the same reasons that the ruk want to leave the eu"
Yes puss! I fully support the Scots in their bid for independence and wish them well. Such a pity that the Scots don't seem to wish the same to their neighbours south of the border.
"the ruk disintegrating serves no one in scotland, i have not met anyone who wishes ill on the ruk
they just want to drop kick westminster into touch"
"I’ve seen two today, true, one of them on the local Politics Show. Of course nutter in chief Nigel appears most days.
I’m old enough to remember when the British had elected the first serious Labour government in ’45.
My dear old dad had a lower middle class job and though he voted Labour, he was almost in tears as he tore down the Vote Labour poster I’d put up in the window in the 1950 election, “ You trying to lose me my job” he said.
I went to a couple of Tory party meetings at their local association club at the invitation of a friend’s father, and believe me they regarded working class people as the scum of the earth to be exploited, and they couldn’t believe these ignorant peasants had tossed Churchill out
They were spitting blood when the Representation of the People act was passed in 1948, now the bosses were no longer allowed to vote twice one for home and the other their business address and the of course Oxford And Cambridge lost their ability to return two members of parliament, where the graduates voted twice once at home at then at Uni.
Cameron wants to reduce the number of members of parliament because he knows if they can dilute the Labour strongholds they can get to a one party state.
The British working people need the EU, because if we return to a little island state with no outside influence, pre 1945 is the objective of the swivel eyed right wing and Bullingdon Club Cameron and his band of stalwart upper echelons mates."
I always wonder about the psychology of this when far smaller economies than ours manage to run themselves rather than be part of a federal superstate. Thus there's no logical reason to suggest we'd sink without the guiding hand of the apparently superior beings of the EU. The only conclusion I come to is that they know full well that we could run ourselves as we always did in the past; but they're simply saying we couldn't do so as a scare tactic. The thing is, those tactics have got old by now - British people have wised up to them; but the Europhiles have unfortunately got no more cards to play so they just keep playing the old ones.
"No we wont We will be free!
And the truth will set you free!"
Ah. A liberal. When sailing through stormy seas, I'd prefer it if I decided what to do rather than have 27 people constantly snatching the tiller. This is called "intelligence". There is a way to bring democracy to the EU. Scrap it. Then restart it and call it the British Empire. Let's take the countries of the EU. Apart from Britain, is there one that achieved real democracy and freedom on its own? Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Norway, Poland? Not so's you'd notice!
"I agree wholly with this view.
I think a major problem has been that it's very difficult to argue
a ""pro"" case for Europe whilst so much of it is going through
dire economic problems, and the causes are unclear; also
it appears a rather one track narrative?
Meanwhile, it appears so opportunistic that the right wing
elements of press/tabloids and faction of Tories leap on
all of this to justify long held views and ideology; a kind
of ""all or nothing"" thinking?
It reminds me of the typical response during economic
downturns- to create a blame culture; blame certain groups-
such as ""immigrants"" or ""benefit scroungers"" as an easy
target, which detracts from a real and balanced explanation
about causes and political choices being made.
I think it is cynical and simplistic to encourage the public
into this type of lazy thinking; also damaging to communities.
It also ultimately lets those in power off the hook?!
I think it's a retrograde step that some of the more ultra right wing
thinkers and ideologues are replacing good ministers in key areas
like energy, enviroment, justice and welfare; also possibly harder
line view on immigration? It comes across like a default position-
aimed to appeal to a minority traditional base?
If that were a proven successful strategy- how come this did not
win the last election?
Perhaps it is hoped that by playing on people's fears over the economy,
enough will retreat into a kind of comfort zone and self congratulatory
position; but this is not progressive politics in the modern world.
Perhaps the more progressive thinkers from all parties and outside of politics
could form some kind of alliance- to make the case for European integration
that is clear and accessible to the average person- and encourages healthy
debate?
So far, it's been a mostly one sided view presented, and often tied in with
stories about the worst affected countries,(which is obviously a reality-
but rarely explained from different perspectives; rather- sensationalist
headlines and awful images alone?)
Perhaps different strands of argument and aspects could be separated out-
and a longer term view? Eg in terms of business invsestment and research
opportunities- and proven track record; what is happening now.
Cultural and social links; shared ideas and common goals are a few
components of the many positives that already exist and I think need to be
hilighted.
I think it would be incredibly short sighted and arrogant to assume that we
have all the ideas and capability to take us forward in the future, virtually
in isolation and cut off from our neighbors?
There also has to be a middle ground position.Reform could be possible
without going to extremes or doing something that could jepordize
opportunities in business ,research/development and education,
and negotiating position of the UK to influence policies for future generations?
I think lessons could also be learnt from the recent US election, that
perhaps the tide is turning in tough economic times; it's not enough
to fall back on simplistic explanations or ignore social inequalities;
it's about creating a social democracy that benefits all, and creates
a myriad of ways for growth- looking outwards and seeking constructive
working relationships.
Also recently, M.Heseltine's report was applauded; could aspects of that
be presented in more detail in relation to areas like green forms of technology
and different models of business?
There must surely be an enormous amount of knowledge and expertise
out there which could really be harnessed and captured, and platform
created to argue case in favour of continued close involvement with
our European counterparts?
I find it so dismal in general how limited the narratives can be out there;
I don't think the public are being informed or encouraged to take an active part
in discussions to think about our own situations, and choices.
I don't see how it's possible for people to make informed decisions
when there is such a woefully inadequate base of information
or hugely biased right wing elements of tabloid media wielding
its influence and presenting as ""fact"" or common sense.
that's treating people like idiots, in my view- and misses the mark.
Thankyou, J."
Pull the trigger!
"Well-reasoned article.
It's funny. I lived in London for 5 months in 2007 and witnessed the Northern Rock crisis first-hand. It was the UK's financial sector that was in trouble because it so closely resembled and worked together with the American financial sector. Add the property bubble and you have a big problem. That's how it all started, in case you have forgotten.
The problem for the UK is this: First of all, you can't just leave the EU like that. The treaties are pretty tight. If you do leave you have to renegotiate every single thing that you got in the first place. And the EU won't be giving the UK cheaper import rates for example.
The UK doesn't have enough industry to keep it afloat without imports for very long. Your farmers will quickly go bankrupt because they benefitted greatly from EU agricultural programmes just like the farmers in France do. The rest of the industry you've got left will be lost over time because companies won't feel obliged to stay in the UK any longer. The result will be a much higher unemployment rate and an even deeper recession. Do you think the US will help you out? No, they won't because they've got their own problems to worry about. You'll be out in the cold alone but that will be your choice, so good luck with that."
"That's exactly the point. They're really not selling it. Amazing how arrogant and entitled some seem to be - they're so arrogant and entitled that they can't even see that being arrogant and entitled won't enhance their case.
So we're being extorted, essentially. That's what this editorial is saying. The EU holds the power so we'd better just do what they tell us to do. That's no different to the neoliberal ethos of doing exactly what private capital wants us to do because that's where the power lies. Which is exactly how power becomes ever more concentrated in the first place - concentration of power becomes an argument for the further concentration of power. So for me this is a matter of principle, not expedience. You can give in to the playground bully if you like, but when you're part of his gang yourself, you can fuck off with your phoney concern for our welfare. The bully is one and we are many. I don't want Britain out of the EU. I want the people of Europe to cooperate to overthrow the EU, and the people of the world to cooperate to bring the power back to the people. That one section of the elite might from time to time help us out against another section is no longer very convincing.
There appear to be two underlying assumptions - that the EU will continue to exist in something like its present form - with the consent of the rest of Europe, or without it? - and that a Britain outside the EU will necessarily be run by a right wing government for evermore. Neither obtains and neither is the intention of some of us who do not support the EU.
I would also like to remind them that it is they and the Eurocrats they advocate for who have fucked this. Perhaps there may have been an EU that people could have supported. A democratic and modest EU, not an elitist, expansionist and macroeconomically highly suspect EU that showed every sign of intending to make of itself yet another greedy and geopolitically manipulative superstate. But they wanted the latter not the former, so now they reap what they sowed. This is the simple logic of power playing itself out yet again."
"Please, the EEC was a bad idea from day one for all but the upwardly mobile political classes.
Europe is a politically, culturally, economically and structurally divided low growth construct of non workable political ideals.
If nothing else has been learned it should be clearly understood that national identity, sovereignty and the right to self determination should not be given up for any economic relationship.
The UK would have been far better placed to have put more effort into British common wealth economic opportunities.
The UK has nothing to lose by leaving the EC."
"""Renegade""?? For the love of cupcake, the EU isn't divinely mandated. Leaving it is not considered a crime by the world at large.
Firstly, a nation of 60 million, a trillion-dollar economy, with a semi-decent infrastructure, high literacy, healthy and with an abundance of decent arable land is not going to be headed down the development scale any time soon. The UK will do fine outside the EU. And yes, before someone leaps in and says it, so would Scotland outside the UK. It won't be a panacea for all ills, but it won't be a disaster in the slightest. The car industry may move, it may not, but it'll then find itself subjected to heavy tarriffs to sell it's goods in the UK, as it won't have free movement of goods anymore. Might be more trouble than it's worth. Let's not forget said industry was bailed out backhandedly with ""cash for clunkers"", so just how profitable is that industry anyway? Besides, being in the EU didn't stop Twinings, Cadbury's or any of the other vast numbers of companies moving their manufacturing to Eastern Europe, or importing an Eastern European workforce into the UK.
I'm confused as to the remarks about the financial sector too. Yes, when trading in Europe Britain's financial institutions will have to follow Europe's rules. They do now I believe. They follow America's rules when trading there. What exactly is your point?
I believe British policy after the last war was for self-sufficiency in food, before the EU and it's set-aside policy. You tell me wether paying farmers to leave land idle is sensible in the slightest. Loads of it here in Lincolnshire, and high unemployment. Nation with rising inflation due to food prices.Solution seems obvious to me.
Secondly it is becoming very, very clear, to all but the most blinkered, that Germany calls the shots in Europe now. And it wants more integration, so the question isn't wether we want to stay in Europe as it is (and it seems the UK doesn't), but wether we wish to be in what it will become.
Thirdly, I have seen nothing that suggests Scotland is anymore europhile than England. The Scots vote SNP who are, but as far as I can see public opinion is pretty much the same."
ha ha ha ha ha ha
"The power of Murdoch and other such notable citizens.. as someone has already suggested can we not have the Observer and Guardian to make available an easily digested factual resource to explain to those who are so easily wound up to be anti EU/ propaganda what the real truth of the situation is.
I am so pissed off with so many things that happen in this society and all because the f.in media chose to misinform and bend the; a role once performed by another powerful opinion maker; the Church.
Why can we not have a series on TV about our role in Europe, etc etc. lets please try to educate us all so that we can have a reasonable and well informed series of discussions"
"the bird has already flown
why bother"
"We have the three biggest political parties saying we must remain in Europe(two if you believe UKIP's leapfrogging of the Libs is permanent), the CBI, and the BBC. That's a pretty powerful group of pro-Europeans there. The EU itself is a pretty powerful organisation with a hefty publicity and propaganda department. It directed it pretty ruthlessly against Ireland you may recall recently.
It's not just the Guardian against the big battallions."
The quicker we have a referendum the better, followed by an even quicker exit from the EU from the referendum results. The EU is to bureaucratic, over bearing, and far too wasteful with other peoples money.
More scaremongering from ignorant Observer Editorial team. How can having more control over our country be considered a negative...unless you are commenting from the position of Globalist stooge.
so the scots are not to be considered a negative for wanting more control over their country?
"Of course not. Entirely up to them (or you, if you're Scots), if it's what they want. There's just a larger proportion of the British public wanting EU withdrawal than there is of the Scottish public wanting independence right now. Things may change.
But there's as much chance of repatriation of powers as the Tory's want as there is of ""devo max"". The other side in the negotiations will say ""Nope. Union or independence, take it or leave it.""."
"Basically none of what you said is true.
Alarmist BS.
I happen to believe that Free People with Politicians directly accountable will produce a Society that can achieve anything.
an opaque society with Commissioners appointed behind closed doors and concentration of power wont.
The USA is an example of a huge government yet they suffer from the same problems as the UK , industrial decline and tax evasion, but at least they have democracy."
"It appears that all the people who want us to leave Europe think that the day we do, our MPs will swing into action and;
We'll get our fisheries back
We'll get our ship building back
We'll get our army back
We'll get our car firms back
Our pay will suddenly go up
Eastern Europeans will go home.
Housebuilding will restart
The roads will be jam-free
If we leave europe these things still wont happen- our politicians are able to solve these problems now even with being in EU. But they don't. They dont want to upset big business or to stick their necks out and show leadership.
Leaving EU is the wrong solution to the wrong problems."
Wonderful post made me chuckle and be depressed all at once. Having worked in Germany and France I'd be worried about reciprocal visa restrictions for work. I'd also be worried about tarrifs which come into play from both sides. But most of our problems have very little to do with the EU and this is a big distraction however the sooner we get it done ad we are either out or in the better. In some ways I'd hope for a out vote so we can see the shambles has nothing to do with the EU.
Glad you liked it. I feel exactly the same way - i am so tired of the vitriol against the EU that its reaching the stage where I would rather we are out. But I fear that next they will go after the foreigners, the poor, socialists and trades unionists even harder - the domino effect in action.
"it is already happening thats why the scots are offski
the ruk had an option to change the voting system, they rejected it
the ruk voted in the tories to do exactly this, in a democracy, the people get the people in power that they vote for"
"Sorry for being thick - you mean we could have had proportional representation via the LDs?
I can understand Scotland leaving - if i was Scottish i would have voted labour so as not to split the opposition vote, but I can imagine it must be frustrating waiting a mere 30 odd years for a westminster government to represent the needs of people outside of the square mile and its commuter belt of the Home Counties.
I think once Scotland has realised that Westminster is utterly implacable and callous to the needs of anyone outside the Home Counties, and have declared independence, Wales will follow too. I think NI will try to hang on but i think a northern/midlands separatist movement will also grow up - we aren't represented by Westminster either.
The only positive thing to come out of Westminster for its citizens since 1979 has been the introduction of the minimum wage, and even then Blair didnt have the bollocks to set it realistically. We have had a right wing agenda for over 30 years from Westminster - it won't change its ways so all we can do is jump ship given the opportunity."
"Oh what a nasty surprise will it be for the Brits that, once ""out"" they are still stuck with their own home made mess and slink into the margines of Europe. Without the promised paradise ""once we are free of the shackles of the EU"". Horrified learning that their problems are NOT of the EU's doing but made by their own unable politico class.
What now little man?
Can't wait to see that! Bring it on!!! :)"
As a farmer I have no fear of leaving the EU and will not have to scrape by and farm 'industriallly' whatever tag means. Total scaremongering. Removing the absurd subsidy distortions and opening up to a global market would be welcome. It would also provide much cheaper food!
I still dont see why this nation must give up its self determination to trade with its neighbours.
"It is quite straightforward.
If you want to trade with your neighbours but you are are creating an 'un-level' playing field by operating different taxation and social policies that give you an economic advantage over your neighbours, then the electorates in those countries may well decide to elect parties who will put up barriers to that trade.
Your self determination is their race-to-the-bottom collapse of civilised society which they are not obliged to assist you in, the WTO notwithstanding."
"The UK people voted for trade and when it changed to the EU all this became null and void.
UK interest trample on the rest of Europes,so be it,the strongest survives whilst the rest merge into the state called Europe.
Give the people the vote and they will show you this."
"And give the Europeans the vote and they might well decide that they won't trade with you if you are undercutting their businesses and depriving their economies of tax revenues by beggaring your own workforce.
Just saying."
"You're making the same arguments that were made for including Devo Max in the forthcoming referendum.
The point is that one party to an agreement can't unilaterally renegotioate- the other party has to agree as well."
The EU would be a lot better off with the UK as a full member. We can look at recent events in southern Europe as reasons not to do so but think again. The fact remains that when pushed to either drop countries like Greece like hot potatoes or help them the EU helped them. That is the point I think... united we stand and all that..!! Sure we can look at the problems but like any marriage it is having teething issues, these will and are being resolved and they would be dealt with faster with more (not less) British involvement. Instead of running away we should be running towards Europe, and in my opinion that includes membership of the Euro.
"And next year Romanian and Bulgarian nationals will be free to come to the UK to take jobs from the working class, untercut wages and conditions; claim benefits and clog up the housing and NHS.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9670141/Britain-powerless-to-stop-tens-of-thousands-of-Bulgarians-and-Romanians-moving-to-UK-next-year-Theresa-May-admits.html
56% want to leave the EU now? You aint seen nothing yet
Itll be nearer 99% in 2 years !!!"
You seem to be reading a bit too much propaganda there, mate. It is up to the EU Member State's to decide whether or not to allow members from accession countries the right to reside in their country. France and Germany blocked this initially, while the last Labour government allowed it in their desire to make more immigrants come in to push their multiculturalism agenda. It wasn't the European Union's fault that we got so many Polish immigrants coming to the UK, it was our own government's fault!
"What gets me is that every one thinks that if the UK were to re-negotiate its relationship with Europe it is a bad thing, relationships change, they have to be flexible, sometimes they end completely but that's not always the case.
Sometimes a rebalance in a relationship can be good for both parties, create greater harmony and mutual respect, sometimes change is good.
So stop looking at the negative and start looking for the positive."
"A bit like the Soviet Union did eh?
And what has the rabidly pro EU BBC been doing for the past 20 years, other than pumping out EU bilge.
Even with the state propaganda service behind it, the people still hate the EU.
Just accept the will of the British people and deal with it,"
"No such place, but then I blame the dumbed-down education standards.
If you mean Europe then I think you will find that we already live there."
"Money talks, the UK remains the 7th richest country on the planet.
And much of the EU is bankrupt........ no, they dont need our trade and currency at all do they?"
"The link I was referring to in my previous post
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/eurosceptics-be-warned--the-half-in-half-out-eu-integration-model-option-is-best-left-to-norway-8199849.html"
I want no part in an institution that forces bankrupt countries to have undemocratically elected leaders. This sets a dangerous precedent where the levers of power have been undermined in the States. Referendum 2013!
Isnt that what the Guardian said 15 years ago about the UK if we didnt join the Euro....... same tactics, same agenda
Right then let's have 20 things that the EU have done to make life in Britain better please!
You'll never get near 20. They will just lie and try to frighten you. Their scam has had it's day.
"1. Equal pay for women
2. Data protection legislation
Both required under EU law
3. Enlightened shareholder value
The latest version of the Companies Act is a decisive rejection of the Chicago school of Economics version of capitalism. Now, under the 2006 Act, and in line with EU law companies must consider and take account of the social and environmental consequences of their decisions.
4. Improved infrastructure
Structural adjustment funds have an enormous difference to roads, bridges and telecoms in the EU peripherary (Scotland and N.Ireland included). This has expanded access to markets, reduced the cost of doing business and promoted inward investment.
5. Free movement of goods
It's possible that you are not old enough to appreciate this.
6. Harmonised European standards in a wide variety of fields in support of a single market
This has expanded employment in the UK and improved the products and services available in the UK. A simple example was the early global dominance of GSM technology.
7. Regulated the behaviour of giant American corporations in Europe in ways that national governments have not: blocking GE's, takeover of Honeywell; forcing Microsoft to operate on a more level playing field (compelling it to provide equal access to operating system APIs); forcing Google and others to respect eU laws on data protection.
8. Protected European consumers from products that are probably unsafe but which Uncle Sam insists are fine: hormone injected beef e.g. Regardless of the merits of individual issues, the UK on its own is not a viable trading bloc when it comes to negotiating such matters.
9. Greatly improved protections for workers (working time directive e.g.)
10. Forced improvement in public health by mandating better air quality, better water quality, cleaner beaches.
That's a few off the top of my head, just for starters.
Suggest you use Google for a few more. Like the person who suspects that the Romans didn't do anything useful I think you'll be surprised."
Good skills!
"NO ONE knows what will happen to the UK economy if we leave. No one knows what will happen if we stay in. All these assertions are just that, one-sided assertions from people arguing one side or another.
And the assertions from the pro-euro people do not fill me with confidence, given that they said that we should join the Euro, which was going to be the most successful currency in the world. We were right to ignore their demands then, and I suspect we're right to ignore them now.
once bitten, twice shy..."
"Pathetic editorial.
I'm not against an ""editorial"" expressing a political bias. But this is so one-sided as to be un-credible. It (quite rightly) notes that a eurosceptic UK press is driven by xenophobia. Yet, it doesn't base its arguments in quantifiable facts. It just adopts the scare tactics of the opposition. Cheap.
That's why I stopped buying the Guardian some years back (the Observer too). It's ""commentary"" is badly
written and not convincing (and leaks into reporting, which is unforgivable).
Having read this editorial, you just know it's imbalanced. It may enthuse the ""base"",who are already decided, but it won't convince anyone else.
What's the point of that ? It's not educational, it's tribal. It's like the Daily Mail - pandering to its readership and going no farther."
My point entirely. I would expect a diatribe from the Daily Mail etc , I expect better than a weak scare piece from this paper , it echoes the delusional "train leaving the station " , " no seat at the top table ", nonsense that we were peddled at the time of the creation of the €. The history of currency unions is littered with failure and the analysis of the requirements for success was not made then . The EU is now attempting to deal with the consequences by greater fiscal integration . It might work but is fraught with political dangers. The EU will therefore change . There may be a case for staying in this new EU but this editorial lacked any attempt to address the nature of argument that could be made. It was pathetic I agree .
"First you say this:

Then you say this:

I don't get how Britain can both be a tax haven and a place where multinationals avoid paying tax if it's not in the EU."
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nqn6j/This_Week_01_11_2012/
there wont be a referendum on the eu, calm down everyone
no one will offer it to the people"
"Corporate tax avoidance ? Why is this associated with the EU membership ?
And please bear in mind that corporation tax (effectively paid by private individuals) represents less than 10 % of tax revenues. Maybe that's because they are getting away with murder. Morel likely, it's because it's a rubbish tax.
A tax levied on the population, in disguise. Politicians love disguise. And the chance to blame business.
Anyone but themselves."
This article is complete nonsense.
"Dear Observer,
""Offered a choice in a straight in/out referendum, a two-to-one majority of Britons would be inclined to leave"". You can jump up and down and threaten dire consequences, but you appear to have lost the argument.
Best wishes,
The Lumpen Proletariat."
"there isnt going to be an eu referendum
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nqn6j/This_Week_01_11_2012/
check out the discussion about the eu referendum
The Lumpen Proletariat wont get a look in"
"Hong Kong's quite nice actually.

So what? A lot of countries are unhappy about competition from a lot of other countries. That's international commerce. Doesn't mean people from all across Europe can't get along.
Imagine if the UK left the EU and under-regulated industry with relation to the EU - companies might up-sticks from the other countries and flock to the UK, in which case it would be a quids-in situation post-departing."
the eu are in fact shape changing lizard aliens who plan to eat 80% of the ruk population so i dont think over population will be a problem
It's so heartening as a UKIP supported, ie someone vilified by guardianistas as a xenophonic flag waving little Englander that as I scan through the comments, reading the most highly rated ones, they are all Eurosceptic or as we prefer to call it Eurorealist.
"""The sky is falling! The sky is falling"" from the Chicken Little editors at the Guardian.
Come'on Guardian. You blew all credibility in your rant editorial with little items like this: ""The financial services industry will be regulated on terms set in Brussels and (U.K.) be powerless to resist."" All studies show there are 3 and only 3 major financial power centers in the world, NY City, Hong Kong and London. The EU in Brussels is not one of them and is not projected to be one for decades at best."
"Gotta laugh whenever I read one of these sorts of articles. Does it overstate the case? Quite probably. But broadly speaking, it's on the money. There is no way Britain can benefit by leaving the EU.
All the posturing is for the benefit of Britain's broadly xenophobic electorate - you're all being played. There's no way any of the people at the core of the Conservatives, Labour or British industry will allow Britain to make such a categorically disastrous decision as to leave, no matter what any of them says.
On the other hand, I half hope the referendum runs, and Britain does vote to leave. When the pain gets too much, we'll go crawling back, tail between our legs, asking to be allowed back in. Maybe then we'll have learned how to become good Europeans. Though I doubt it. We were here once before back in the '70's, voting against membership, then crawling back. Seems, that while the rest of Europe has learned that being European means 'what's best for Europe' Britain has learned nothing, and still believes it's all about 'what's best for us'. Until we can grow up and get past that, we'll never be able to play our proper role in Europe alongside Germany and France.

I've lived in several European countries, and their general common perception of Britain is one of a loudmouthed party-pooping bore who spends half his time saying ""what a crap party"" and professing a desire to leave, and the other half demanding ""more beer and crisps!""
It's pathetic."
"Please see my posts above and below yours.
Moreover you haven't given 'facts'; you've given opinions. There is nothing xenophobic about wanting to run your own country. Do you think Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders are xenophobes for being sovereign states, rather than part of a federalist superstate? If not, then why do you think we would be so? By leaving we would merely be returning to the status quo before we were deceitfully taken into the EU against our wishes - all we ever voted for was a common market - not a political union.
The level of fact free scare-mongering and ignorance from the few Europhiles left here really is a sight to behold. It's not even just the Brits who don't want to be part of the EU - so please put that myth to bed. There is a huge amount of Euroscepticism on the continent; it's just their opinions get overlooked as ours do."
"Nice straw man lostprophet...
I never said wanting to run your own country was xenophobic. I said Britain's electorate was broadly xenophobic, without drawing a link between said xenophobia and the desire to run one's own affairs.
As for putting myths to bed, Britain is far and away the most Eurosceptic country in the EU, with only 16% of people expressing trust in it (according to the Eurobarometer 77 survey) with Greece next at 19%.
Lastly, it's worth mentioning that individual opinions of whether the EU is beneficial or not are just that, opinions. As you pointed out. I believe the facts, as I read them, support on balance the contention that Britain will be economically and politically worse off should it leave the EU. I'm not saying Britain was ever incapable of supporting itself, I'm merely saying that the evidence (too much to post here) suggests Britain will suffer if it leaves the EU.
However, I half (perhaps more than half) hope you get your way. Perhaps it will be better in the long run if a referendum is held, you Eurosceptics have your way and Britain leaves the EU. Perhaps only then . . . once they've left the party . . . will the majority of Britons grasp what federalism is really all about."
"Centre-right press? Do me a favour, there is nothing centrist about the xenophobic venom spouted by the majority of newspapers in the UK.
The rot on Euroscepticism set in 20 years ago, as the Tories allowed ever greater parts of our media to be controlled by plutocrats with a vested interest in preventing decent social protections in the UK. People in the UK have had precious little opportunity to get a balanced perspective on the EU.
Labour did nothing to try to make the print media a more balanced place, indeed Blair fell over himself to curry favour with those promoting a far-right social agenda via their mouthpieces.
Blair claimed to be pro-European, but did nothing to provide balance and fairness to the debate.
We desperately meeded fair media ownership laws in the UK back in 1997.
And this is where it has got us.
Centre-right? Don't make me laugh, these rags are very right wing indeed."
"With all respect, Sir, but that is not entirely correct.
Actually the EU doesn't need Britain at all. Many experts here on the continent are happy that Britian is not part of the Euro-zone. Even the French economy is struggling by now, and we don't need another ticking time-bomb in this EU-kindergarten.
Don't think that Britain is a must-have."
Good then we can leave and everyone can be happy then won't they? Your post is actually very revealing. It serves to illustrate what I've long thought and that is that many countries of the EU don't even like Britain - they merely want our money. All the while you complain that we're not a positive partner (boo hoo) despite the fact you don't want us as one anyway (shown by the fact we have never had any real influence there) - you just want us as a cash cow. I always wonder why a country would want to be ruled by other countries who so clearly dislike us and don't understand us - what are the advantages of that? Any ideas?
"thelostprophet (and other romantic nationalists) keeps harping on about how he / she wants the country to rule itself as it did ""for 900 years"", when in fact no country now ""rules itself"" fully. That is because globalisation on an unprecedented scale over the last thirty years has led to many countries being very dependent on each other - ie. interdependence. Decisions made in one country can and do have major impact on the welfare of others - eg. the under-regulation of banks in the U.S. before the 2007 financial crisis. Aside from the administration of bin collections, national sovereignty in the modern world is a sad and twee delusion peddled by the Right. Global capitalism is turning out to be the best enfeebler ever of the nation state as a political construct, and the best catalyst ever for leftie ideas of international co-operation and unity.
""Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace""
thelostprophet also likes to gloat about how few we ""europhiles"" are. Of course Eurosceptics like to think so, because they only ever chat to and meet with their ilk, agreeing ever more strongly with each other down the pub or on the building site. They exist in their own quaint little bubble. Bring on an EU referendum so we can burst that bubble once and for all, just as Barack Obama has just burst the bubble of the rabid Right in America, who thought similarly that they just couldn't lose...."
".... one consequence of leaving the EU not mentioned in the article: the subsequent flight from Backwoods/Backwards Britain not just of huge swathes of industry, but also of may able people who want a decent future for themselves and their children, and who have the means to get out and set up elsewhere.
And as for statements from the likes of _AT_askinnyguy, near the top of the first page of comments, who think (using the term loosely) that ""it's about democracy"". Well, I disagree. Democracy only functions effectively if there's a modicum of genuine insight and understanding of the issues at hand. The levels of deliberate and frequently downright xenophobic misinformation, propagated primarily by the right wing press, mean that any referendum on EU membership would be little short of a travesty."
"Agree.
The telegraph had an article that nearly 2m Britons emigrated over the 10years to 2006. Low skilled immigration into low paid jobs is masking a more serious problem- the ones leaving the UK are the ones who are likely to be middle class - educated, affluent and likely to be fed up with the downward trend. Ie over time the nation loses its values.
The flag waving old codgers complaining about Europe, immigration, the evil left, etc are the ones who have been in positions of influence for decades - its their mindless ""prescription"" causing people to want to leave - be it via emigration or votes on independence."
Has Switzerland failed because of being not part of the Europian Union? Of course not, in fact they have benefitted and do in fact sell more to the EU than we do, fact. Our financial centres would really take off, we would have much more available money to support areas within the UK in much need now, we would be able to have a proper legal system once more and have real powers of self determination. Probably start to trade more world wide again, instead of building up huge wasteful stockpiles of goods artificially kept to keep prices up. We would no longer have to give huge amounts to bale out wasteful EU States. Whoever wrote this article is a sample of the small minded no hopers that the EU is full off. Come on lets be true Britts once more.
Britain can really do it! You can leave the EU and be like just Switzerland & Norway. You can be a well-off country outside the EU and keep access to the single market (at the price of an entrance fee and the implementation of 3/4 of EU laws and directives on which you won't have any veto or other kind of influence anymore, oh and you could become part of Schengen). The best part? Although the new relationship between the UK & EU will be much more imbalanced and undemocratic than it is now, at the same time your public won't care anymore, because they know "we're not part of EU" and this state of mind is all that matters to them. Just like Norway & Switzerland :)
Typical alarmist diatribe from the EU defeatists.
"Bent bananas!
EU Wants Corpses Liquified And Put Into Drains!
University Fined For Not Flying EU Flag!
EU Wants To Ban Classic Cars!
The EU Wants Britain To Be Part Of France!
Etc., etc. All these concocted, manipulative stories made up by a virulent right-wing press. No apology printed when they're found to be baseless! The gulluble British public swallow it hook, line and sinker! No wonder they want to leave the EU. It would be far more of a surprise if they wanted to stay in!"
People have tolerated our EU membership,believing its "good for jobs" or something. More people are seeing that the EU is presiding over a democratic & economic disaster. EU supporters have lost the arguement, and events have turned against you. Leaving the EU will not be "dire" - it'll be fab.
"""it's a figure which should be emblazoned above Margaret Hodge's office door.""
heh, brilliant Madeleine."
Margaret "235" Hodge. I wonder if this is her first nickname? 235.
"From the Times article: ""Almost one third of new citizens last year came from Africa originally, with a further 19 per cent from the Indian subcontinent and a further 16 per cent from the rest of Asia.""
So at least 680,000 of the 1,000,000 new citizens are from ethnic minorities. No wonder whites are predicted to become a minority in Britain before the end of the century."
"Madeleine,
You don't address the key issue:
Should the british state, funded by British taxpayers (of whatever colour) discriminate on the basis of nationality (whatever the colour)?
Is it enough to be resident to receive services paid out of the public purse? If so, then what is the value of British citizenship? - and what does this mean for our cohesion if the state decides unilaterally that its responsibilities apply to all 6bn people on the planet?
The numbers may be smaller than scaremongers have suggested but there remains such a lack of principle that the law become so fuzzy as to generate unpleasant misunderstandings.
If it is your position that there is no problem because the numbers are only 90,000 - where would you suggest that it does become a problem? 200,000? 500,000? 5 Million? Never?
Shouldn't we be able to discuss this? Shouldn't we be told what government policy is?"
Caucasian Invasion: the figures are not broken down by colour, in fact many of your 1/3 originally from Africa could actually be white Zimbabweans, who were welcomed with open arms by the UK government about 5 years ago and who will now be making their citizenship applications.
"''In 1997, there were 37,000 new citizens a year and 10 years later the figure is more than 150,000. This is reported as a great cause for alarm, but it could just as easily be reported as a great success for Britishness and integration.'
This is an underestimate and a lagging indicator of how many people are coming to live in the UK, the real figure will be much higher, because it will include many illegals. It is the net immigration into the UK which places pressure on the housing market. All these people need to be housed and place pressure upon the housing market. To try to pretend this does not have an impact on the ability of UK long time residents being able to find decent accomodation is clearly a nonsense. The figure of 235 is irrelevent, it is the 100'000s of new people coming into the UK which are driving up housing costs and which result in many young people being unable to afford the the accomodation they would wish for their families. Indeed in many cases responsible young couple feel unable to have children because despite working hard they cannot afford to buy the sorting housing they would wish for their families because of competition from new immigrants. It is easier if you are prepared to sit at home and leave your housing needs to the state of course."
"Journalists like you beggar belief. Here we are facing road pricing because our roads are so congested, another tax on people who never ever voted for mass immigration in the first place. Don't tell me - you don't think they drive; we have junior doctors who cannot get a job here, we are running out of energy, ordinairy things we cannot say about people we the populace never invited here - where do you get off?
The argument about immigrants' economic conribution is utterly fatuous too. If you want economic growth you raise productivity and to do that you take people out of the public sector back-line and put them to real use. Last time anyone looked public sector productivity was sliding beneath the floor.
What about helping people in their own country. You have no sense of the angst among the populace for the loss of our way of life. We ARE the first country in history to give ourselves away and you are crowing about the disparity in the figures reported. Talk about Rome burning. The migrants are laughing all the way to the Houses of Parliament because, by the time I get to retirement I will be looking at a scene from Mumbai whenever I step outside my front door. Nothing wrong with Mumbai or the people who love there frankly. They have a country the lucky bastards. Mine is sliding away before my eyes.
The irony of ironies with people like you is that the very largesse that allows so many in is what will kill that largesse in ten years time if not sooner. Watch what happens when half the Commons and Lords is not British. Not British at all.
We have ten times the population density of the USA, double that of France, and about a hundred that of Russia. Just how many people do you think we can take - even Blunkett is starting to see the truth (not a pun) so what kind of dinasour are you? Open your eyes and more to the point devote your energies to getting the electoral gerrymander that we call democracy in this country corrected."
Bunting, you miss a key trick: this country simply does not have the housing or resources to cope with such vast numbers. We already have a severe housing shortage. And so many of these economic migrants are being treated appallingly, and being forced to live in the most squalid conditions. Until these issues are addressed, it's all very well for the people of this country to benefit from these migrant's deprivation and cheap labour. The reality is that it's much more racist to think it doesn't matter and to encourage immigration until we crack down on such exploitation.
"""Migrant workers are contributors to our economic wellbeing, not scroungers.""
This rather depends on whether one regards supermarket hyper-profits, for instance, as a part of the common good.
Hard to see how it benefits the 3 million people here who are unemployed"
"#..more than half were claiming child benefit and 30,759 were claiming tax credits.# #Or is that we just want cheap labour but they (and their children) should struggle on low pay, poor housing while they boost our economy?#
No we dont want their cheap labour, and we certainly dont want it subsidised."
Why do the Mail and Express never denounce the Spanish government for allowing in hundreds of thousands of Brits who sponge off the Spanish social services and, in many cases, make no attempt to learn the language? CaucasianInvasion - Why on earth should it matter if "whites" will be only a minority by 2100? Could you explain please?
"There is something missing from the article about what is an increasingly common route for immigration - marriage. This is, of course, a quite natural thing in a world where there is more movement.
My relationship with my wife who came to the UK on the basis of her marriage to me, in not a statistic to be spun by the press or commented on by hacks. It is nobody's place to tell me who I can and can not love and marry and it is certainly no one's place to judge us on choices from out provate lives.
My wife has worked hard, gone through the purgatory that is the immigration system, paid her taxes, not comitted any crimes and is a fine and decent member of society. She has never claimed a penny of benefit. Quite what more she has to do to get some people on here to stick their noses out and stop judging is rather beyond me.
I love my wife, but I do care that others feel that somehow we are less, or as TruffleWednedsay artlessly puts it, 'a problem,' due to her being foreign (she is now a naturalised citizen).
Journalists should all just stick their nose out of private business because my experience is that any comment just seems to whip up the stereotype - that should be, I suggest, emblazoned on your door Ms Bunting."
"The arranged marriage of social and economic liberalism?
There are two strands of thought in favour of an open door policy on immigration. The �internationalist/utopian left� has always seen immigration controls as indicative of xenophobia and quasi-racism, although middle-class white-collar liberals are rarely themselves threatened in employment terms by significant waves of immigration. Letting the poor from the� Third World� in to the �First World� is somehow presumably seen to compensate for the systematic exploitation of the former by the latter. In practice, the Third World may well lose some of its youngest and most skilled members. Repatriated earnings back home may assist to some extent, but this is hardly a strategy for strategic and independent development in the poorest countries. Rather it might even be seen as one strand in the current form of demographic neo-imperialism.
On the free market right, large global corporations would like either to sweep away immigration controls and even remove national legislation altogether (Universal Services Directive �country of origin principle� is arguably a case in point) or move large volumes of labour across borders (as currently with eastern-Europe and as is clearly intended with the accession of Turkey). �Free� market economists would see this as making the labour market more �flexible� (read ��insecure��), by making the elasticity of aggregate supply more elastic. (Read ��driving wages and social protection down��). Increased competition for jobs and social capital such as public housing are thereby seen to put a brake upon real wage �growth� (depending on how the Government constructs the retail price index � invariably it will underestimate the real level of inflation).
Here you see the current fusion of social �liberalism� and economic �liberalism� as exemplified by the Guardian, which is repositioning itself within the information market of the 21st century. (Remember the Manchester Guardian was itself a free market organ in the 19th century and supported the campaign for the abolition of the Corn-laws, etc). By this paradigm, people who disagree are therefore either 'extreme', 'arch-nationalists', 'xenophobes', 'racists' or 'opportunists'. This of course is a gross over-simplification. In practice, as we have seen in France/Holland, many people � often the poorest - are concerned by unrestricted immigration and by outsourcing of jobs (and services such as banking) to China and India. Both drive down living standards of the poorest in Europe and undermine job security. This argument is used to remove social protection too, so we can �compete� with the transplanted operations invariably owned by US and European multinationals abroad.
The Roman Empire imported forced labour as slaves through invasion and the confiscation of assets. If we look at those areas of the world today that have generated large flows of refugees, it would include Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine (and of course central Africa - the source of so many primary products). The ongoing conflicts and wars encouraged by the New World Order are arguably setting in motion massive patterns of emigration and delocalisation on an even greater scale than ever before. People are right to be concerned."
"It's amazing how otherwise socially progressive people highlight a key benefit of immigration being cheap labour and cheap food supply.
You wouldn't tolerate it for British workers yet you'll excuse it for arguing a point in relation to the immigration debate.
One final point, why do so many Guardian readers get worked by by the Daily Mail. The Daily Mail is a bit like France. It flails about and it screams and shouts a lot but ultimately it lacks the influence of the Murdoch papers and it can safely be ignored as though you would ignore crankly old git next door who flings dog shit over your fence."
"Madeleine Bunting: ""What even the Mail had to admit at the bottom of its story (if readers got that far) is that the figures for those on income support were tiny - 744 - while a tiny proportion, just 235 families have been given local authority housing. That's 235 across the whole of the country: it's a figure which should be emblazoned above Margaret Hodge's office door.""
That's 235 immigrant families given council housing since January and it doesn't include Bulgarians and Romanians.
235 additional persons getting council houses, 705 additional persons getting homeless payments, 744 additional persons getting income support and 858 additional persons getting jobseekers allowance.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=456887&in_page_id=1770
Fenlady, it's true that I don't have a breakdown by race but I do have a breakdown by country of origin.
The 2006 figures for new citizens were reported as such: ""The countries providing the largest number of new citizens were India with 15,125, Pakistan 10,260, Somalia 9,050, the Philippines 8,840, South Africa 7,670, Nigeria 5,870 and Sri Lanka with 5,720."" http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1826737.ece
If we look at the 2003 figures we get a more complete breakdown: Africa: 39,815 (of which 1,390 were from Zimbabwe) Indian sub-continent: 29,715 Europe excluding European economic area: 17,235 (4,910 of which are from Turkey) Asia excluding Indian subcontinent: 13,335 Americas: 10,195 (2,795 of which were from Jamaica) Middle East: 6,195 Oceania: 3,460 European economic area: 2,185
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb0704.pdf
So out of the 124,295 persons given citizenship in 2003 about 96,765 were from non-European Minority groups. That's about 77% and it's not counting hispanics from the Americas.
Looking at previous years it doesn't seem that the 2003 and 2006 numbers were at all unusual."
"MaidMarion, I don't think your wife is a problem. She is British through her marriage to you and is as deserving of every right and responsibility as every other British citizen.
My post was about whether citizenship should have any value and if it does not - i.e. the state should *never* descriminate on the basis of nationality when providing from the public purse - that undermines our sense of the common good."
"alanpav: ""Why on earth should it matter if ""whites"" will be only a minority by 2100? Could you explain please?""
It matters because it is what makes Britain British. People don't move to Britain for the weather. If they wanted that they'd move to Jamaica. The reason Britain is a good place to live is because of the people who populate Britain. If the population changes, as it has been doing, it may no longer be as pleasant a place to live.
Just go to some of the areas of Britain which already have a high concentration of immigrants. What's the crime rate like? Is it a pleasant place to live?
MaidMarian, your point on marriage contributing to immigration is valid. Only just over 40% of the immigrants to Britain are workers. Almost half are through family reunification and the rest are refugees.
It's even more of a problem in France: ""In France, family-linked immigration represented 75% of inflows in 1999, the highest level ever and an increase of nearly 23% over 1995."" http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/23/41/2508596.pdf
That's something to keep in mind when talking about immigration. For every person granted residence in Britain another will likely be brought over through family reunification."
CaucasianInvasion - Your account of why it would matter if whites were only a minority in Britain assumes that "British" = "white". But even with no more "non-white" immigration it is likely that by 2100 most British people will not be "white" as you understand it, simply because of the effects of intermarriage etc. three generations ahead. There will be a whole range of colours, from "white" to "black", like in Brazil. Why on earth should this matter? They will all be British.
"What I don't get about this debate is how on one side people talk as if eastern europeans coming to settle long term is a bad thing, and the other responds by emphasising how many of them stay a while and then go home. Actually it seems to me that having people settle here permanently, build lives here, start businesses, join trade unions, and add to the cultural richness of the country is generally a good thing. On the other hand, having a continual in and out flow of itinerant labour, consisting of workers who are supporting children, buying property, and paying for pensions back east where the living costs are much lower, and open for short-term exploitation by greedy employers is potentially unfair on British workers who have to compete with them while paying the mucher higher local costs in the long term.
So I wish those defending immigration would stop going on about how the incomers aren't staying permanently, as if that were defacto a good thing."
"alanpav: ""There will be a whole range of colours, from ""white"" to ""black"", like in Brazil. Why on earth should this matter? They will all be British.""
They may become British citizens but they will not be British. Why would you want Britain to become like Brazil anyway?
Do you really want violent favelas all over the UK?
In spite of the intermarriage there are still huge problems with race over there and it won't be any better in Britain."
"""There will be a whole range of colours, from ""white"" to ""black"", like in Brazil. Why on earth should this matter? They will all be British.""
The colour is IMHO immaterial - the culture isn't. The native Brits just happen to be white. It's not melanin or lack of which made them - and their country - a special, free and uniquely peaceful place. When you look back at the last 150 years of European history you realise how fortunate the Brits were.
We are importing people at an enormous rate without making any attempt to integrate them into British culture - indeed without being sure that there IS any British culture to integrate to.
The natives are forecast to be a minority in the UK by 2073. This will be earlier in England. English kids are a minority already in London schools. In English primary schools nearly 22% of kids are from ethnic minorities. Do the maths. Compound interest is a wonderful thing.
Now it's possible to integrate large numbers of people successfully into a strong, self-confident host culture - America's been doing it for the last 150 years.
But we've got the worst of both worlds - no strong culture, and numbers on a scale which even a strong culture would have problems with integrating.
How then does a Somali kid in London learn to be one of Mr Blair's 'special' Brits ? He doesn't.
Not so long ago a chap called Jim Muir wrote a comment piece on the BBC, about why Iraq was always going to be a disaster.
""Iraq is a patchwork country, an ethnic and confessional cocktail, of Arabs and Kurds, Turkomans and Chaldaeans, Sunnis and Shiites. Such countries are usually held together by a strong centralised dictatorship, which could be benign or tyrannical.""
Hang on a minute, Mr Muir. In the UK, an ""ethnic and confessional cocktail"" translates in BBC-speak into ""celebrating diversity"". How come it's so bad for the Iraqis ?
""As soon as you admit the concept of democracy and take the lid off, it is bound to be difficult and chaotic in the best of conditions, in a place with no democratic traditions or culture.""
I'm being fair to Mr Muir. That last is an important caveat. A place with no democratic traditions or culture. Where are our immigrants coming from ? Answer that, then wonder what our ""democratic traditions and culture"" will be like in 50 years.
http://ukcommentators.blogspot.com/search/label/immigration"
"Ms Bunting should read Larry Elliot's short book ""Fantasy Island"".
His view is that the UK is a debt-ridden, industrial hollowed out potential basket case, nothwithstanding all the b/s PR and spin.
He thinks it very ill-advised to be importing an alternative workforce - and that the total labour force may be well in excess of what is really required when the crunch comes.
Not the sort of consideration which cuts much ice with the ingenuous Ms Bunting I realise, but at least she should consider his views"
"alanpav
""Why on earth should it matter if ""whites"" will be only a minority by 2100? Could you explain please?""
Doesn't it matter if any native people are displaced by other peoples anywhere in the world? What is this, survival of the fittest? You want borders to be dissolved and all the peoples of the world, whomever survives, to move around like locusts to fight it out wherever the most resources are at any given time?
The English have England, the Japanese have Japan. A small amount of migration is one thing, but to deny people their homeland, destiny and culture in order to change the population for your own gain is quite another.
You seem intent in denying that the English are a viable people. I've heard that sort of thing bandied about before, most notably about the Palestinian people."
CaucasianInvasion and LabanTall - The most fundamental differences between people in Britain today are not based on "colour", they are based on things like class and education. I (and probably you) feel far more at home with people of similar education and interests, regardless of "colour", than of others. I feel nothing whatsoever in common with the (stereotypical) "lager lout", "yobbo", "Essex man" - you know what I mean. Do you want a Britain full of people like that?
"alanpav, it's more than just class and education that separates or unites most people.
The whites and minorities in Bradford, Oldham and Burnley are not that different in terms of class or education and yet there have been some major problems there with race riots and people voluntarily segregating themselves.
It's part of human nature for most people to want to be with their own kind. Even in integrated schools you'll see whites hanging out with whites and blacks hanging out with blacks with only a few persons being active in social circles of other races."
"""I feel nothing whatsoever in common with the (stereotypical) ""lager lout"", ""yobbo"", ""Essex man"" - you know what I mean. Do you want a Britain full of people like that ?""
I know what you mean. But, to quote Yasmin Alibhai Brown (admittedly she was referring to rich Asian businessmen):
""these are my people, and I care about them""
They might be underclass scum or uncultured yobs - but their grandparents and great-grandparents were great - nay, heroic people. The collapse of the respectable working class is perhaps the most enduring work of the 60s and 70s counterculture.
They might be bastards, but they're ""our"" bastards.
One other teensy pointette. At what percentage of population does it become acceptable for Native Brits to form equivalents to the Black Police Officers Association or the Society Of Black Lawyers ? After all, they'll be minorities one day. Are the BNP just ahead of the demographic curve ?
http://ukcommentators.blogspot.com/2005/05/swamp-thing.html"
"_AT_alanpav
Your making alot of sense, well done, a little love goes a long way."
"_AT_ LesterJones
You need to work on that sarcasm."
"alanpav: ""Why do the Mail and Express never denounce the Spanish government for allowing in hundreds of thousands of Brits who sponge off the Spanish social services and, in many cases, make no attempt to learn the language"".
Its nothing to do with the Mail and Express what numbers the Spanish government allow into their country.That's a matter between them and the Spanish people.As for Brits sponging of the Spanish social services in their hundreds of thousands, what a preposterous and racist statement.Have you any facts or figures to back any of your statements up. I would bet any money that the majority of Brits settling in Spain have a substantial amount of money behind them esp. after selling their properties back in the UK.
Madeleine Bunting writes [Or is that we just want cheap labour but they (and their children) should struggle on low pay, poor housing while they boost our economy?] Who's the [we] in your statement? The only [we] that loves unrestricted immigration is big business for cheap labour and the Govt.for keeping inflation relatively low.The English working class finds their wages being depressed by immigration and then gets a handout in the form tax credits. What kind of economic policy is this? and what a way to treat ordinary English people...have most of us on some sort of Welfare. We have a Govt. that has long sold out to business and Europe,and the whole idea of multi-culturalism, and immigration are simply devices to stifle any hint of resistance by the English people. I've said before on many occasions that the sooner the English people are shot of any British Govt and out of Europe the better.
Madeleine Bunting's final comment that[Migrant workers are contributors to our economic wellbeing, not scroungers.] Again [who's] wellbeing? Not your ordinary Englishman thats for sure,and the bit about about scroungers is a lie. I have friends who have or currently work in the inland revenue,and the scams and fraud they tell me about regarding tax credits is frightning.I'm sure I don't need to tell you who the most creative fraudsters are.
Yes, between a British Govt.that doesn't give a flying f#ck about England[witness the reasons denying us a parliament], Europe which pretends that we don't exist and are just a collection of regions and last of all the race hustlers,one can see that dear old England..one of the oldest nation states in the world...is not in the best of shape."
"CaucasianInvasion - Oh dear, how little you are aware of how the family reunion law works or the frustrations and grief it causes.
My wife, a naturalised UK citizen has no right at all to bring her non-EU family for any period of time - we have to chance our arm with the visa system. Bizarrely, those who come to the UK as 'Europeans' can bring non-EU family into the UK under European law. European have more rights in terms of family reunion that to British citizens.
Unsurprisingly, the actual Immigration website is opaque on this point to say the least, a good (albeit rather politicised summary is at http://www.ncadc.org.uk/archives/filed%20newszines/oldnewszines/news17/don.html
Of course, non-EU people such as ex-empire may have other established route to the UK, but please don't for one second assume that a British passport is a route for families from outside the EU. Of course, the press go out of their way to give the impression that it is.
I wanted to go for a boozy weekend in Ireland, register myself there under treaty rights, then come back to the UK, registering my movement under treaty rights, to avail myself of European rights that the UK government will not extend to me, bit it seems that the loophole has been closed.
And as for areas with a high concentration of immigrants - yes, there are some very swish areas, parts of Surrey with US expats are very exclusive. I am not too sure what your point is there.
TruffleWednesday - I apologise, it seems that I may have read a subtext to your comments that simply was not there and I wish you well."
"MaidMarian: ""...please don't for one second assume that a British passport is a route for families from outside the EU. Of course, the press go out of their way to give the impression that it is.""
Perhaps it's different for native Brits bringing in foreign wives. If you look at persons from the Indian sub-continent who were given citizenship you'll see the the majority came in through marriage.
Persons from the Indian sub-continent naturalized in 2003:
Pakistan: Resident in Britain: 3,075 Marriage: 8,110 (2.63 times as many Pakistanis were given citizenship because they married someone already in Britain as opposed to those who had been given citizenship because they lived in Britain for however long was required)
India: Resident in Britain: 4,125 Marriage: 5,470
Bangladesh: Resident in Britain: 2,095 Marriage: 3,270
From the European economic area it was much lower.
Resident in Britain: 910 Marriage: 525
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb0704.pdf
Obviously some people, like those from Pakistan, have found a way to make the family reunification policies work in their favor."
It's called 'chain migration' and is one of the reasons why the Muslim population of Bradford for example, where Muslims weren't exactly thin on the ground in 1980, is projected to have tripled in the 30 years between 1980 and 2010.
"""So I wish those defending immigration would stop going on about how the incomers aren't staying permanently, as if that were defacto a good thing."" You're bang on tagret Formerlefty and it's exactly how I feel. If people have arrived legally, have a job, want to stay and they respect our laws and culture (and here I'm talking about things like respecting women and gay people, the right to criticise religion etc) and make a positive contribution to this country, well that's fine by me. But what we've got is a constantly shifting population that ebbs and flows.
You have a large flow of people who basically see the UK as a money making enterprise and have little or no stake in the country. To be blunt, they couldn't give a xxxx about the UK. So why should they tax and insure their car? Worry about litter? Keep their homes and gardens tidy? Worry about flytipping? Care if they're making hell for their neighbours? Is there any wonder that any sense of community is dying when there isn't the chance to form bonds with your neighbour, who's only here for a short while before moving on (it doesn't help that many migrants have little or no English)? So the fact that some people are only staying ""a short while before going back home"" is of no comfort to me."
"CaucasianInvasion-
Firstly, I assume that when you say, �Perhaps it's different for native Brits bringing in foreign wives,� I assume that you actually mean, �foreign spouses?� Unless, of course you believe that my friends who are female with foreign husbands should not have the same rights to choose who to love, marry and live with as men.
The figures that you quote are irrelevant. These are about people who were naturalised and granted citizenship by whatever route. That almost certainly means that these people were already in the UK by some route under a period of ILR ( I think that this is three years for married people, five for unmarried, but don�t quote me on that!). It is those ILR figures and not naturalisations that are most relevant � again, the journalists don�t exactly go out of their way to make the distinction.
Your original comments were about family reunion. Being a British citizen does not, as I said in my previous comments, act to allow family reunion in and of itself. There may be other rights on which these people can come to the UK, but to infer as you and others did that marriage is a route by which there is mass illegitimate immigration is borderline offensive to those of us who struggle with a massively unsympathetic system distorted by myths peddled. Unless of course you feel that I should not have the right to love/marry as I see fit?
LabanTall � chain migration is something slightly different. That is about people coming to the UK and bringing someone else over from their home countries by the marriage route. That, does not mean the whole family. I agree totally that some of this chain migration is wholly inappropriate and leaves people (often women) very vulnerable and in an environment in which they are egregiously unprepared. Any children that they have are then raised in an environment that is usually not a good preparation for going out there and living life. I am not aware of any research on this, but I am quite sure that it has been in the literature since at least the mid 1980s. I have no idea how to stop it, but I strongly feel that taking away my rights to love/marry is, at best, totally inappropriate. Saying that all immigrants don�t care for the UK is simply not true, and I suspect that you know that. My wife�s English is, incidentally, flawless. I wish you well."
"_AT_maidmarion
Excellent posts. Its refreshing to read those without an axe to grind who can illuminate the twisting of facts succinctly as you have. Its tiresome to have to wade through so much nonsense cast about by those whose peculiarly fictional world view is designed to back up false assumptions. Thanks."
"Caucasian Invasion - ""They may become British citizens but they will not be British."" Again, what do you mean by British? Two of my grandparents were East European immigrants, yet I am, and feel, 100% British, and nobody regards me as anything other. ""It's part of human nature for most people to want to be with their own kind."" Yes, of their own kind in shared interests etc., but colour has nothing directly to do with that.
Bvanzy - In what way are the English being denied their homeland, destiny and culture? And for my own gain??? What on earth is that supposed to mean?
Pamarde - Please read the article in Tuesday�s Guardian about the local elections in a Spanish town where British immigrants have arrived in their thousands."
"Well written, full of facts and showing signs of having done some research. OK, what have you done with Madeleine Bunting? You don't fool me for a moment, this cannot possibly be her work.
Can it?"
I guess that if you are not a Tory and your wired up to a Sky news (Murdoch Media Empire) Microphone then you should really know better.
What's the fuss about?
"_AT_suburbanslicer
Agreed! Feel sorry for Brown for having to deal with these sorts of people!"
"_AT_zrazzle
Confirmed.
_AT_sneekyboy
True dat.
_AT_ifshespins
Most def."
Does anyone know of a transcript of what she actually said? It sounds like she said some reasonably bigoted things on the subject of immigration, but it would be nice to judge ourselves.
I'd like to think that Sky didnt have a hidden agenda in broadcasting these private remarks - but then I see who owns them.....
"So she's basing her voting decision on policy rather than personality yea?
More to the point, who cares!?"
"Apparently someone has just leaked her twitter page:
http://twitter.com/bigotedwoman"
"Oh dear, Brown was not aware and revealed his true character ... he doesn't like bigots.
Gets my vote then!
Watch the press maggots crawl all over this one."
"_AT_JohnRuddy

Are you suggesting that the Murdochracy has some kind of hidden agenda? I shan't accept that notion for a second!"
"The Gaffe
By the Gaffer!"
"Oh come on: we've all dealt with customers with smiles plastered on our faces, and the second they walk out the door you turn to your colleague and mutter 'twat'. Even if it isn't justified.
I think this is quite light insulting really. If he really just said bigot when he thought nobody was listening, then that's surprisingly clean. I probably would've turned the air blue in that car."
Apparently, "You can't say anything about immigrants ... All these eastern Europeans ? where are they coming from?"
"_AT_zrazzle

Love Twitter Love Life."
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The full interview is on the Channel 4 website. If you watch it, he actually handles her questions very well - he's polite and patient and attempts to actually answer her, despite her being critical and darting about from education to pensioners to immigrants. What he says in private is another matter - one which you cannot judge him for because he slipped up in forgetting to take off his mic.
"What brown says in public and what he says in private are two different things.
Prove positive that this man lives in two dimensions ...
As leader of the labour party he is the figure head and spokesperson of an organisation that continues to hide the truth and to scoff at the electorate.
So, as probably most of the electorate knew this person and his organisation are not fit to govern."
This is actually great. Shows the man has some character.
"Probably Gordon Brown & Labour taking their core votes for granted while privately slagging them off.
However I wouldn't expect a card carrying Labour person to understand that conundrum.
:)"
er.. maybe that should be EX-Labour supporter...
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"Gordon Brown's election campaign was thrown into turmoil today after he was caught on mic calling a Labour supporter who had challenged him over the economy a ""bigoted woman"".
how silly. Brown's campaign is already in turmoil. This is just making a mountain out of a molehill."
"Judging from the rush of pro-Labour bloggers on here, it looks as though the Labour Party recognise that this whole episode could be a defining moment of the campaign.
I'm no Murdoch fan but I think that Sky was right not to try and cover up such an appalling episode.
I'm sure that there will be plenty of further incriminations internally within the Labour Campaign.
Brown is close to meltdown."
"Left wing instruction manual, page 35
If you find you are losing an argument simply call whoever you are arguing with a bigot or racist. Also see page 10, the cryptofascist accusation move."
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"You're all joking right?!
You think this is fine do you? Some fair and kindly put questions from an ordinary person wanting some answers and this is how he responds?
He talks about substance over style, and the minute someone questions him on it, he's calling them bigots.
He blamed the media for concentrating on style not substance, then he blames his aide for putting him in front of this woman. Then he blames the woman herself. Then he blames the news crews for recording and using the information.
And finally twenty minutes later he says ""I blame myself"".
Well d'uh!"
This weird alien Gordon Brown loves being in charge and having all the lovely policy, laws and power to play with. If it weren't for the pesky "human beings" with whom he is forced to engage with sporadically this would definitely be the best job in the universe!
"""You can't say anything about immigrants ... All these eastern Europeans ? where are they coming from?""
Eastern Europe?"
Well done Gordon, piss off your core voters by calling them bigots when they ask questions you don't like.
I don't see an issue here, it seems all he did was call a spade a spade.
I don't see what the big deal is here, I'm not voting labour anyway but this kind of sensationalist reporting is fairly typical of the British media these days. It's safe to say that everyone at some point in their lives, or more likely every day; speaks to someone then after leaving the conversation says something negative about the mindset of the other party. I've heard all this stuff about Eastern Europeans coming here taking all the work many times, each time it makes me sick as does any racist comment. Brown has been quoted and recorded saying what he said, but what exactly did this woman say, I don't watch TV, least of all Sky News but what she said on camera and off may have been enough to let Brown make an informed opinion of the nature of this woman's psyche. The truth about Eastern Europeans particularly the Polish have left this country and gone back home because it's shit here! No wonder treated with the racial barrage they get in some regions around the UK. The other leaders and their sidekicks should be honest and not use this as an electioneering event as I'll bet they all have said similar or a lot worse in their time, just not stupid enough to leave the microphone on.
"The problem is not calling her bigoted. The problem is that Gordon believes that meeting every single member of the public on the campaign trail is a stage-managed event:

What a doofus."
Well, we 're all bigotted to some extent even if we don't like to admit it. Who was it who said British jobs for British workers, anyway? Could someone remind me?
"I do not think GB comments were off.
Many people are 'bigots' especially when they speak about immigration. It is always about 'those' and 'that' foreigners. May be and if he is smart, GB will use the comment to start a grown-up conversation about race/immigration/crime and how the country should respond to so called 'foreigners'.
Foreigners who help to build the country back after WWII, work in the NHS, in the City, and all over the UK as teachers, cleaners, social workers, doctors, lawyers, students, and generally honest people. They contribute to the wealth and growth of this country.
But instead of that conversation, the first thing we get are people like the lady, the moment they talk about decline in their community, link it to 'foreigners' whether eastern European or from wider afield, taking their jobs and communities. Non-sense.
I think GB needs to use the comment to have a 'teachable' moment about race and immigration in the UK. Show that the UK has always been and is best because of its diversity!"
Well at least he was being honest...Makes a change.
he should get out more
"We are continually being told by Labour types how different Brown is in private - if only we could know him when the cameras are off...
Well, now we've seen the real Brown!"
Gordon's the best asset Dave 'n' Nick have got. God knows who allowed him out to meet the voters. Clearly Mandelson has been sidelined at Millbank because if he was running the show there wouldn't be this kind of shitstorm happening today.
"This is an amazing insight into the real Gordon Brown.
What have we learned?
Gordon Brown doesn't swear in private. I'm shocked he didn't say: ""F**k me that was f**king s**t."" Imagine that being played on the news.
He didn't say: ""Who set this up? Sue? The f**king b***ch.""
He didn't hit anyone - and it said on another report that the guy he was speaking to was meant to have been someone he shoved.
He doesn't like people who attack immigrants being in their community.
He kept his feelings under control both in speaking with the voter and when he was ambushed with the recording on Radio 2.
It was a private conversation about how an aspect of the election was going. I imagine being a fly on the wall of other conversations would be far, far more embarrassing and expose hypocrisy.
Let's see if this goes the way of the The Sun attack on his letter writing."
Nice to see the Tories grabbing the chance to stick the boot in. I am sure none of them have ever made comments they would rather others had not heard. My goodness their haloes must be so polished!
This exchange says more about the intolerant Brown who obviously cannnot stand any criticism or scutiny, the hallmark of an insecure, childish bully. This merely confirms what many inside stories have suggested about Brown's character and his intolerable treatment of his staff and close advisers. The man is not fit for any minor management role never mind the leadership of a once great country.
It's not Sky's "lack of cover-up" on his quote I find unreasonable, but their inability to show the contextual bigotry that justified it.
"I heard the interview on the radio before Brown's comments in the car were known and thought to myself at the time of the woman 'what a miserable old bigot', so my estimation of Brown has actually gone up.
Shame he hasn't had the courage of his convictions and made such a feeble apology, had he stood by his comment millions of voters would have been much more impressed by him, whereas now he looks insincere and weak."
"Surely the question this raises is why ""neutral"" broadcasters keep playing a ""private"" conversation which was not intended for public consumption.
Once again the BBC, running scared of the Cameron / Murdoch alliance since last year, are repeating the propaganda of that alliance without questioning the ethics of the conversation being broadcast once. Oh yes, but it was Sky wasn't it. Nuff said."
Ah the power. Once you've had it, it's hard to imagine life without it. He thinks the same about all of us - that we're all a lower form of life - but he doesn't care so long as he can keep his power. I'm sure he would have headbutted that woman live on TV if it meant he could stay at No. 10.
Everyone needs to get real who hasnt made a comment the didnt mean. Also if thats upset the lady she needs to grow up she's alive so whats her problem
Good grief. Listen to all these feeble-minded Liberal Democrats with their toothless bites. What is this .. Hug a Racist Day?
"Well thats that then
The worst Leader's gaffe since the Sheffield rally. The only way to stop an outright Tory victory now is for the Lib Dems to win as many seats as possible to block them. Labour is dead in the water."
"Sadly for all the would-be bigots, Pole-haters, Romanian-baiters etc in this country, they are in the UK thanks to their membership of the EU; in the same way that the second-home owners in Dordogneford and Lower Chiantishire are also allowed to live there and raise the ire of the locals I wouldn't be surprised.
It's time people realised this. The EU may have been responsible for a lot of bad things but you can't have your cake and eat it. If you don't want 'all these eastern Europeans' you can't have friends and neighbours with second homes abroad that allow you to have cheapo holidays or (grand)kids, nephews and nieces who work abroad either."
"Slightly racist old lady (aren't they all!) versus anonymous bloggers who will describe someone as ugly and rabid and think that is justifiable.
I'll take her over you any day. at least she could make the (admittedly lame) excuse that it's how people spoke about foreiners in her day. what's your excuse for being idiot, name calling pricks?
i don't agree with her one bit, but if that's the standard of debate you bring, then god help us all."
"It's reassuring to see how tolerant the majority of CiFers are on this thread.
Sure, she didn't say anything offensive, nor did he (to her face).
But the media don't want the facts, they look for the story. 'PM insults voter' will run as lead story on TV, radio, the press and online blogs for the rest of the day.
Will the voters mark Labour down in the next opinion polls? Will a questioner at Thursday's debate on the economy manage to bring in a question about it somehow?
Is this the future we all looked forward to?"
Not much of a gaffe is it. Couldn't they get Prescott to thump her or even invite BobHawke over to call her a silly old bugger.
What's Joe the Plumber doing in a dress in Britain?
"_AT_FourThirty

And that makes him? Human? You think other politicians don't do this?

I think you'll find he lives in four dimensions, just like the rest of us.

So no different to the Tories then, with Cameron basically saying that he doesn't want PR because he thinks Lib-Dem voter should be treated like second class citizens, with only a fraction of the voting power of Tories and Labour.

But no more fit or unfit to govern than the vacuous Cameron."
When are you guys gonna stop acting like you have battered wife syndrome and wake up to the realisation that these parasites (politicians) are all self serving career cretins who believe that they are your political masters. grow up ! it's time to self govern.
The Labour Party - 1900-2010.
"I don't think the woman expressed racist views. She asked him about immigration from Eastern Europe. Isn't that an honest question about immigration?
She ""was"" a Labour Voter concerned about a certain topic!
Does that make her a ""bigoted woman""?"
Talking frankly about the issue of immigration does not make someone a bigot.
Looks like the regular Labour voter has gone from bigot to racist in the space of an hour..
The majority of comments on this site are laughable and stand out as a concerted attempt to make nothing out of something. This was a disaster plain and simple. It might have been unfortunate, unfair, he might even have been right (though the tape suggests no bigotry to me) but it is a disaster, and his bumbling non-apology is even worse. 'If I said something' - I thought it was his eyes he had trouble with not his ears. What would he have said if, someone else had said this? He is an albatros around the neck of the Labour Party and an obnoxious man.
The majority of comments on this site are laughable and stand out as a concerted attempt to make nothing out of something. This was a disaster plain and simple. It might have been unfortunate, unfair, he might even have been right (though the tape suggests no bigotry to me) but it is a disaster, and his bumbling non-apology is even worse. 'If I said something' - I thought it was his eyes he had trouble with not his ears. What would he have said if, someone else had said this? He is an albatros around the neck of the Labour Party and an obnoxious man.
"Brown's right. Labour supporters are bigoted!
That's what he thinks about all those who never brought him to power."
Everything he touches turns to...
I don't think it's the disaster the broadcast media are currently trying to paint it. For the first time in this campaign, Brown sounded authentic. The woman used terms like "all these Eastern Europeans" so he got in the car and moaned about the decision to make him speak to her, and then he calls her a bigot. So what? Anyone with a modicum of sensitivity about race knows statements like "all these....(fill in the gap)" denotes a particular type of viewpoint - usually a bigoted one. Of course the broadcast media, dominated by the white, middle classes won't consider for one minute that many will see this as a positive, rather than the 'political nightmare' they are trying to suggest.
"Liberals are funny:
Utilitarian
""To be scrupulously fair, she does look a little bit like a bigoted old cow.""
Tha could be construed as bigoted, judging people simply on their appearance - would she look less bigoted if she was black or is it the fact she is from an older generation?
Immigration is not just a question of bigotry, there are all sorts of legitimate concerns surrounding it: Jobs, public service impact, affordability, space, impact on cohesion of local communities, housing - green issues.
Just because someone questions that immigration is an absolute good, does not make them a bigot - it makes the person who denies them an opinion the bigot."
"_AT_ ifshespins
Is she bigoted in the conversation?
She sounds like 95% of voters, a freakin loon."
"A veritable tsunami (can I say that) of comments supporting Mr. Brown.
It can only be a damage limitation exercise by New Labour HQ."
maybe she is a bigot!
"agree with iainl
""It's not Sky's ""lack of cover-up"" on his quote I find unreasonable, but their inability to show the contextual bigotry that justified it.""
least Brown got some balls...................Clegg and Cameron are chumps"
"""Gordon Brown's election campaign was thrown into turmoil.......""
Really?
Enough hyperbole."
"According to the Telegraph...

So shouldn't all the usual brigade going on about PC be defending Brown here, for just poiinting out the obvious, i.e. that she is a bigot?
Oh, and in repsonse to the fragrant Mrs. Duffy, and anyone else who cant work it out....

Eastern Europe."
"agree with iainl
""It's not Sky's ""lack of cover-up"" on his quote I find unreasonable, but their inability to show the contextual bigotry that justified it.""
least Brown got some balls...................Clegg and Cameron are chumps"
...whereas David Cameron is a jolly nice fellow who has never said a word wrong about anyone ever.
"Christ, this is really bad: according to CiFFers, this is only in the news because Rupert Murdoch changed his allegiance from Labour to the Tories and obviously set it up and that woman's ""obviously a racist"" and Cameron's the one who'll destroy the country with his Tory Toff chums.
Can you HEAR yourselves? Would your children feel embarrassed if they'd written the same thing?"
Wonderful body language in that picture above. Brown is doing his firstly, secondly, thirdly and she is pursing her lips in disgust.
"Hilarious to see Labour supporters rushing to support Brown, blaming the media, agreeing she is a bigot etc. Come off it - Brown said he wanted to meet ""real people"" and this is what you get. The man is probably still p....d off after speaking to ""real"" Radio Four listeners yesterday, and hearing the word ""liar"" being liberally used. You don't get that at your stage-managed shows featuring simpering schoolchildren and happy (hand-picked) Labour pensioners.
Just a thought - when he used the word ""bigot"" I wonder if he had that eery, creepy smile on his face - he invariably does these days....
If Brown ever went to seek work in the private sector, he would be regarded as unemployable."
The impossible has just happened...I felt a pang of sympathy for Gordon Brown (a very slight pang...oh, it's gone now)..surely this is the nadir of the Labour election campaign and things can only get better.
"Ha! It's so close to the scripts of the Thick of It with scences inthe back of the minsterial car!
I have sympathy with Brown. This kind of unfocussed whinging that chucks in a reference to immigrants as if they are to blame for everything is just the regurgintating of the tabloid mentality that dominates much of Britain. There's no real structured opinion or thought behind it.
Was he caught live? Or did Sky release the audio after? If they released it after I don't think it is ethical.
Of course politicians let off steam in those situations. They are humans! People moan about Brown not being human enough then they have at him when his human side shows through.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't."
After all, anyone who is concerned about how our country is changing due to the biggest jump in immigration in our peacetime history MUST be a racist bigot.....or so the thought Police insist.
The actions of Brown say more than I could ever say.. can't beat a genuine politician eh?
"So ... is she bigoted?
Isn't Brown allowed have an opinion on the woman and her views?
Or is it a mortal sin now for anyone to express an unflattering opinion of anyone else?
Grow up.
Just when you thought the campaign was getting quiet, it's great to have some real news to report on isn't it?"
"The question of the day: ""All these Eastern Europeans, where are they coming from?""
I believe Brown has already set up a committee, headed by an ""Eastern European czar"" to deliberate whether an answer can be given and if a public inquiry should be conducted......"
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Some of the comments on here just defy belief. If Call me Dave or Nick Clegg had said this the reaction on here would be unbelievable - but because it's Labour it's alright to call someone a bigot? The last acts of a desperate man. Good riddance Gordon.
Is it not entirely possible that she was infact bigoted? I trust Browns judgement on this one.
"'Where have all these Eastern Europeans come from?'
I'm going to guess at Eastern Europe."
"If this woman is a bigot, then so are the majority of voters I have spoken to in this campaign. Gordon and his pals do need to meet more real people.
Whilst out canvassing for Labour in a multiracial working class inner city melting pot on Saturday, I met people, oflen from mixed race families, who expressed concern about immigration. They aren't intentionally being racist but expressing concern for their jobs, income levels and housing availability. Whether they are blaming the right target with ""immigrants"" is highly debatable but they are seeking to explain their life problems.
Whilst the Labour party refuses to acknowledge the concerns of these people who were traditionally core Labour voters and now wishes to label them bigoted, rather than provide an alternative narrative and set of solutions, the party is over, I am afraid.
As for the previous posters who so readily jump on the bandwagon of labelling this woman a bigot, you need to get out more as well."
What an idiot that man is. When is this country going to wake up to the fact that he is a complete bafoon, a hypocrite and along with Blair has ruined this country beyond all recognition......May 6th I guess!
"What, you mean that same epic sense of judgement that has him dissing voters on mic?
Yeah, just keep taking the tablets, uncle homer."
"She's bigotted?
Who exactly is locking up children of asylum seekers in detention centers?
That's whose bigotted my friends."
I haven't voted Labour since 1989, but today I'm actually thinking of it for the first time. I'm tired of political pandering to racists and bigots. I've never thought much of Brown before, but this brief glimpse of him in private makes me think more of him than anything public.
"I'm sure big Dave would never have a bad word to say about anyone.
I'm sure that when Dave and his is old Eton buddies get together to bump gums, they have nothing but good to say about single mothers and people on disability allowance. About how we should fight for high investment in state education and health through maintaining current levels of taxation, rather than making tax cuts for the wealthy."
"CIF QUOTE OF THE DAY!!!
Are you Derek Draper in disguise?"
This smells of an all-round stitch-up.
"Aye, but he was caught out giving a very unflattering one. He's the Prime Minister who, having heard from a Labour voter about her genuine concerns, and nodded sagely throughout, said that she's just a silly old woman essentially. Nice.
A real vote winner. If you have any worries about immigration, I suspect Gordon will now be right at the bottom of your list, if he's still there at all. Odd considering Gordon's own tough words on immigration which led many CiFFers to suggest Brown was becoming rather right wing.
CiFFers of the Labour variety, there's only one way out: invoke class again! Make out that woman was either a BNP member or maybe even Murdoch's new wife. Either way, just make sure you fundamentally misunderstand any politics to the right of centre, as is your wont."
Blowing off a bit of steam after an annoying exchange is trivial. I bet most leading politicians say FAR more tactless / inflammatory things to their aides several times a day. I'd have my doubts about the sanity of any politician who didn't. This is a non story, and you have to wonder about the motives of those whipping up such a fuss about it.
"This has the makings of a Little Britain sketch -
Brown offers the old lady a biscuit
Lady: ""Thank you Prime Minister, did you make them yourself""
GB: ""No, a friend of mine Mr Patel made them""
Lady: ""Oh I see"" (starts looking green)
GB: ""Are you alright dear you look like your going to be...
Lady: ""Bleuuuugggghhhh"" (sick everywhere, all over Brown's suit)
GB: ""Christ, get a bucket, I think she's going to blow again""
Lady: ""Bleuuuugggghhhh""
GB: ""Well ,lovely to have met you - take care now""
Later in the car....
Aide: ""What happened""
GB: ""Bloody racist old cow threw up all over me""
Mandy: ""I told you the biscuits were a bad idea""
Daily Mail the next day: ""Brown tries to poison voter then calls her a racist""."
"funny that's it's sky..??
perhaps sky has more to lose than labour."
You silly little lefties, you believe in a fair democracy? that just saying the word immigration justifies being labeled as a bigot, she's 65 show some Respect, and she's been a life long supporter of Labour.
Fantastic ! finally showed his lack of sincerity to the public at large and so like it or not this has just cost labour the election, play it down as much as you like but i shall being doing the highland jig tonight !
"_AT_northernwoman

What she said was bigoted and retarded, as are the views of so many people in these inner-city sink holes.
I don't necessarily blame them, they just regurtitate the faecal matter they see printed in The Sun every day, but their views remain bigoted and retarded.
The real reason why they can't get jobs is because they are too thick, but nobody has the guts to point this out. So we get all the media and politicians blaming immigrants.
If a Pole can get a minimum wage job yet these skanks can't, you need to ask yourself whether they really wanted the job in the first place."
"Sky is to the Guardian Reader what immigration is to the Daily Mail Reader.
Well, only very recently of course, it wasn't the case prior to the Sun's switch from Labour (the supporting of which was fine)."
"Stop spinning it against the woman, she was only asking questions that concerned here.
The real issue is
Gordon Brown is a two faced bastard!
Make Labour History 2010"
Funny mind, all you Labour fans saying it was a storm in a teacup - if Cameron had said this you'd be having a bloody field day!
You earn respect from what you do and how you act, not by how old you are.
I think the old woman has a point, how would politicians or journalists feel if they were replaced or even if their wage hadn't increased for a few years probably not very good, I can almost imagine a guardian fluff piece, am I a bigot or somesuch, you can't criticise Labour for everything but their attitude towards european immigration as well the housing situation reflects a political class unwilling or unable to imagine themselves in the place of ordinary people, this also appiles to journalists.
Jeeeesus. Who knew people were so easily offended.
He really is an ignorant c**t. Sorry was my mic on?
"She was fantly racist....so pretty accurate. This is what we are back to, leaders 'debate', their wives, marginal changes in NI etc. And the IFS report is news for half a day.
Infantile politics."
"I think it's clear that the woman probably did say something bigoted: if this is a story designed to bury Brown, why would it be all hush-hush over what she said if it were so un-bigoted?
It would be easy to jump on the hypocriticism point that voters ask for 'real, human' people as politicians, but pounce on the 'real, human' aspects, like mistakes, when they appear. But I really don't think that's the case. 99.99% of people simply don't CARE about this, or are just feigning rage. It's the media who inflate such gaffes to zeppelin proportions and plaster it across their pages, paper and screen, until you inevitably end up being angry anyway - not because the story makes you angry but because you're being told to be."
So he can't call her a bigot; but you can call him a bastard? Hypocrite!
"The worst thing Gordon Brown seems to have done to me was a) be insincere being all nice and polite to her just before he got into the car and b) be insincere by apologising to her afterwards. If you really believe she's a bigot then don't apologise!
The comment about her grandchildren being in university when they're only 10 and 12 made me laugh. I always thought Labour's obsession with getting everybody into university whether it was best for them or not was stupid, now we find out they want to get 12 year olds into university education as soon as possible!!"
"_AT_ Beasley

If being bigoted means that she sounds like that proportion of the population who moans about 'them foreigners coming over here, taking our jobs', then yes."
"So the press think it's ok to release a private, off-camera conversation and relish in his discomfort? They even went and got the woman and told her, on camera what he'd said, before leading her to their van to replay the conversation. I think it's awful.
Like someone else commented, who hasn't dealt with people in their job with a smile on their face, only to let off steam afterwards in private? I know I have to do it all the time in my job!!"
"y-a-a-a-a-a-a-w-n-n - more gossip is it then? anyone talking about the policies yet? no?
oh it was a SKY-TV mic! ha ha ha, wow! who'd have thought it."
He's toast.
Does it only eastern european immigrate into UK? if no, saying 'All these eastern... sound little bit bigoted
"The BBC wouldn't have done this!!
(No, they certainly wouldn't to a Labour PM, but they'd have stitched Dave up like a kipper and present company would be remarking on how ""aloof"" and detatched he is).
Was Sky a problem at all when it was supporting Labour?"
"""During their exchange she questioned him on pensions, the deficit and tuition fees. At one point she mentioned eastern Europeans in this country but did not develop her argument.""
Was he p****d of with her because of her question on pensions, the deficit, tuition fees or Eastern Europeans? According to the guardian, quoted above, she did not develop her 'argument' on eastern Europeans in this country. Uhm!
With a different person, in a different place, and at a different time (i.e a member of the staff inside No. 10) would he just have chucked his mobile at her?
Where will the labour vote, in Rochdale was it, go? Please god not the BNP.
VOTE LIBDEM get Gordon Brown out of politics."
"Holy cow you people are deliberately missing the point.
It doesn't matter if she was a bigot or not (I haven't listened to the interview).
The point isn't even if he called her a bigot.
The point my tribal chums is:
""

Thus showing up the whole pretense of meeting members of the pubilc as the BS it is. Everything must be stage managed or his brown-ness throws a tantrum."
I work in a shop and the majority of my customers have been saying exactly what this woman has said for years. Smug lefties can sneer about it but this is how people feel. If you think that calling them bigoted is gonna sway them- good luck with that
"The 'Free dicitonary' defines 'bogot' as:
""One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.""
Describes Brown perfectly!"
This election is endless media shit-stirring. Correction, all contemporary politics is. Brown wouldn't be meeting bigots in the first place if fleet street wasn't whining about him not meeting members of the public enough. I want no more Alistair Campell's, no more party fellacio from Murdoch and non of THIS whatever the Guardian is doing trying to retain its balance, just back Lib Dems/hung parliament/labour already you centre-left swine.
"He did brilliantly. He called a bigot a bigot.
More please."
Good on you, Gordon. You may have lost the woman's vote but you have gained mine. You showed more of your true personality in that short clip than I have seen at any other time - and I like it. The only mistake you made was to apologise. You should have called her a bigot to her face and pulled in a load more votes.
Thank you Mr. Brown for making my day. Can't say that very often.
what about others' gaffes? like Cameron's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBlDfp85gP8
"In my opinion Sky News are trying to influence the election by resorting to sensationalism and dirty politics and
If anyone should publicaly apologise surely it should be Sky News they intercepted a private conversation and publicised the contents
one has to ask was the microphone left in place on purpose?
why was it not removed at the end of the interview?
If the goverment was bugging someone from Sky News they would have been in big trouble
it is my understanding that If a person intends to make a private conversation available to a third party, they must first obtain the consent of the person being recorded
was the consent obtained?"
"I?d still rather a ""two faced bastard"" than the man who looks like a condom lead the country.
Sky News shouldn't be allowed to do this sort of nasty news; they just want Brown out which is not journalism."
"_AT_Beasley
""She sounds like 95% of voters, a freakin loon.""
You work in the labour party election strategy office, the press office or possibly your nickname is 'Dolly'?"
"That woman is bigoted. She basically said that Britons, I suppose she meant born in the UK, have more of a right to benefits than the immigrants coming in. And Brown was right to say that while Britain has a million immigrants, there are a million Brits living in Europe, so should they not have the right to benefits if they qualify because they aren't born in the country they reside. Good counter argument and shows that he thinks on his feet.
I'm also happy to hear that he doesn't pander to bigots just to get a vote.
As an American living in Oxford, I'm fully aware of the bigotry in my own country, and I'm equally appalled when I witness it here. Most people are hard working and want to earn what they have. Sadly, narrow minded thinking like this reflects the selfishness of people directed at vulnerable people. It's a coward's move to blame your problems on someone less fortunate."
"Now we see the real Gordon Brown, the contempt he and the Labour ""elite"", yuch spit, holds for ordinary upstanding folks who actually have the temerity to ask their leader about how will he deal with the national debt and to turn around the economy.
How dare Mrs Murphy ask such ""racist"" questions? Doesn't she know who he is??
I know a good moving company in London. Have Mandelson e-mail me and I'll give him their number. They are sure now going to need it.
Good by Labour. Off to the benches opposite with you, and it can't come soon enough..."
"THIS CAMPAIGN IS A RIDICULOUS FARSE!
just like american politics. i dont care what you say or look like, i only care what you will do with the enormous power youre about to be given.
first tv debates in the uk and there hasnt actually been any debating.
i expected more from the guardian, at least the IFS is on the ball."
PM in truth shocker !!
very unprofessional of the soundman not to leave the mic faded down when not in use for the intended broadcast. Thats page 1 in sound recording school. As a TV soundie myself, i could have listened to all sorts of juicy titbits from a multitude of celebs, but like to think that when the broadcast is over, down goes the fader.
"Gordon was a bit daft, but these things will happen. Surely it won't be the last gaffe in the election. It should not put Gordon off from meeti ng the people. Even if he makes the odd mistake the broad view is that it is better to see someone human rather a posh airbrushed,self-controlled flimflam artist in controlled situations.Cameron often meets people on work's premises. Well no-one is going to ask him awkward questions or call him a prat while the boss is around are thery
Just read the 'nice old lady's' twitter page. (see above)
'objecting to bendie buses because they can carry too many gay East Europeans' .I am sure all you Liberal Democrats approve of that.
Also she was trying to sell her story to more than one media organ within half an hour of the incident. Was she a Skye News plant?
Storm in a teacup."
"Imagined overheard conversation in Sky News control box as Brown has conversation with Mrs Duffy
Him - She's giving him a right earful
Her - Yes I bet he wishes he'd never started
Him - Someone on his staff is going to suffer for this
Her - As soon as he gets back in that car he's going to go balistic
Him - Hmmmm - Yes...Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
Her - I'm thinking that we should remind our reporter out there that Brown put the mike on voluntarily
Him -- We only need to leave it on a liitle bit too long
Her - Do you think anyone will complain
Him - Naaaaah all the journos will love it - its a great story
Her - And we'll get brownie points with the Murdochs - maybe even a bonus
Him - Hold it...He's getting into the car...
Her - He's not saying anything, he;s not sayoing anything
Him - Oh God we should have turned it off by now
Her - Come on Gordon, people will start to suspect something
Him - We're going to have to switch it....hang on...Here we go...."
"I don't think it is going to sway them, which is presumably why Gordon has felt forced into this embarrassing apology.
What I do think, however, is that people who have to deal with such ignorance and unpleasantness on a regular basis have a right to let off steam about it in private.
God knows I would be devastated if we ended up with five more years of Brown, but for goodness sake, grow up and get a grip!"
"Well, she is a bit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8649308.stm (around 2.30)
She's talking sanely about pensions & economy and then suddenly bursts into ""You can't say anything about the immigrants, because they'll say that you're... but all of these Eastern europeans what are coming over, where are they flocking from?"". That's fairly bigot-y (not to mention a retarded question).
Personally I think Brown comes across quite like-ably - he tries to shift her away from her xenophobia, but understandably makes a sensible judgement on her character."
"Gordo.
You're gonna need Pickford's number .....1-800-EAT-SHIT"
"Sabotage by Sky News!!
He's only saying what he thinks FFS. I don't like the man (and I certainly won't be voting for him) and she will be milking this for all its worth.
And if this country votes against someone because he happened to speak his mind (albeit not to her face), then heaven help us all."
Its funny to hear folks worring about what the women said when it doesn't matter really what she said, most of us will have forgotten by next week, she isn't up for prime ninister,she could of said far worse things, what did matter was how it was handled during and after the interview by Gordan Brown and that we will all remember forever - Priceless !
"loisaidalisa
You are wrong on so many levels. The main one being that if he really thinks she is a bigot then he is pandering to her by firstly not saying it to her face and then apologising to her.
He could have said that he wasn't apologising because he did feel she was a bigot and was happy to stand by his comment. He didn't."
"I thought thought that it was paragraph one, chapter one of politics101, as explained by Jim Hacker to Sir Humphey, to always assume that a microphone was live?
Bigot or not Brown is a very silly man."
"I'm trying to concentrate on what an idiot Brown is, but keep straying back to this:

Call me crazy, but Eastern Europe?"
Its funny to hear folks worring about what the women said when it doesn't matter really what she said, most of us will have forgotten by next week, she isn't up for prime ninister,she could of said far worse things, what did matter was how it was handled during and after the interview by Gordan Brown and that we will all remember forever - Priceless !
"_AT_oldfarte
I can't get on twitter from here, but I have an inkling that this woman does not have a twitter account, and that:

is somebody having a laugh.
Don't you think?"
_AT_Harthacanute - wow, so she is a racist witch! Intolerance lives......on CIF.
"_AT_oldefarte
I can't access twitter from here, but I suspect this woman does not have a twitter account, and that:

is someone having a laugh.
Don't you think?"
"I'd prefer it if he spoke like that in public. Why are the Labour party pandering to anti-immigration bigots in public, while deriding them in private.
And of course, Sky news has no agenda. None. No sir. Why would they, after all?
This simple accident is the same as Sky revealing Brown's notes last week - a simple oversight that could happen on anyone's watch in a studio with a camera positioned right over his head, while the other one lovingly focussed on Cameron's face, cutting away from Clegg.
Fuck Murdoch - vote Lib Dem.
Fuck Cameron - vote Lib Dem
Fuck Brown - vote Lib Dem
Fuck the British Press: VOTE LIB DEM"
Hug a Racist Day - brilliant
"And Brown seems like a nice bloke - exasperated at the incompetence of those around him. Moderate in his criticism, no swearing.
Good on you, Gordon.
Still won't vote for your party, but fair play."
"The comments supporting Brown here are absolutely typical of the chattering classes types. Most havent a damn clue about ordinary peoples concenrs about imigration. Heck to you they are instantly racist morons.
Actually its you people who are the idiots. Because shutting down debate on this issue as most of you do here with shouts of racism etc, are exactly why the revolting BNP get votes. Because they know you dont listen, and neither does Brown and use it for their own nefarious purposes.
I note some johnny in the middle of the posts talking about foreigners helping to rebuild the country...and yes they did, though I would call them Brits. the fact you call them foreigners says something about you.
But to ignore this is an island, already has an increasing population density, a national debt that makes the eyes water thanks to your beloved Gordo and finite resources. To then label anyone who might proffer that we need to ensure we dont increase that problem due to more people coming in, as a racist is pretty lame.
What did I learn by this incident;
1) Gordo thinks that anyone with an opinion on immigration is a ""bigot""
2) Labour aint going to discuss it or take it seriously
3) And most telling. Clegg and Cameron, like or loathe them, meet and greet the public and risk (as happened to Cameron) being verbally attacked. And they hold up ok and dont duck it. Gordo is pissed off because he should not have been exposed to anyone now already in thrall to him. Really this backs up what we already knew."
"""Gillian Duffy, 65, heckled the prime minister as he was interviewed live on TV in Rochdale about Labour's plans to cut the deficit, repeatedly challenging him to say he would tackle the debt. Brown ignored her intervention but was then asked by senior aides in his entourage to meet her.""
So Brown was asked by senior 'aides' in HIS entourage to meet her eh!
Makes you wonder eh! A faction in labour want rid of Brown because they think (hope?) that it will make an agreement with the libdems possible after labour lose badly in the election. Could he have been set up? No not possible labour don't behave like that, do they? No probably far fetched........"
_AT_Emrys84 - yes ban the naughty men from SKY, who needs them when we have the Guardian and the BBC to show us all the the light and truth we'll ever need?
_AT_Emrys84 - yes ban the naughty men from SKY, who needs them when we have the Guardian and the BBC to show us all the the light and truth we'll ever need?
"Bitten nails, dismissive and aloof.
The smile of a Siberian Winter.
And now utter contempt for any voter that does not agree with him.
Isn't he quite something?
Roll on Thursday."
What a lot of fuss over nothing. We all know that MrTony regularly used far worse language and with far less reason.
"Full video of the exchange is provided by Channel 4 here:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid62612474001?bctid=81636194001
When you watch that I cant really see how you can come to the conclusion that she is bigoted."
"Bitten nails, dismissive and aloof.
The smile of a Siberian Winter.
And now utter contempt for any voter that does not agree with him.
Isn't he quite something?
Roll on Thursday."
Very unfortunate incident, but what do you think Brown, or Clegg or Cameron, say about the voters when the microphones are off? Or are they both such nice gentlemen that they never have a bad word to say about anyone? I don't think so.
To condone such comments from a PM is absolutely disgraceful. "Is it acceptable for him to insult a labour voter or anyone else provided he doesn't get caught? I am not surprised' this is the LABOUR way. Sneaky bunch of deceptive leadership.
PM said "Everything, she was just a SORT OF bigoted woman"
"""...all these Eastern Europeans flocking in..."" said mrs Duffy...
And that's what majority of Brittons think? (according to some rightwingers here) Not very sophisticated, or educated for that matter...whose fault is that?
Hey right wing hypoicrites, who's going to clean your houses? Who's going to refurbish them? Who's going to pick ypur strawberries and wash your lettuce? Who's going to make your doyble machiatto? Someone should give mrs Duffy answers to these questions.
Eastern European and proud of it!
Also can and will vote in this election!
Labour all the way."
"""These Eastern Europeans where are they coming from?""
'Eastern Europe'
That's the simple answer.
I'm just watching the scorn for one of Labour?s core support coming from the Liberal Left. It seems Gordon Brown does represent a section of the electorate?"
"""...all these Eastern Europeans flocking in..."" said mrs Duffy...
And that's what majority of Brittons think? (according to some rightwingers here) Not very sophisticated, or educated for that matter...whose fault is that?
Hey right wing hypoicrites, who's going to clean your houses? Who's going to refurbish them? Who's going to pick ypur strawberries and wash your lettuce? Who's going to make your doyble machiatto? Someone should give mrs Duffy answers to these questions.
Eastern European and proud of it!
Also can and will vote in this election!
Labour all the way."
"""And it's very nice to see you"".
""You bigoted woman"".
Gosh folks, isn't he such a caring and understanding chap, who would do just about anything to improve the lot of every Briton?
Well, nearly every one.
This is what has been lying beneath the surface with this apalling individual, elevated to PM without election.
That creature is supressive.
On election night, get rid of him."
"ha! yeah, they always concentrate on 'eastern europeans' which is biggotted really, i mean what about the endless bloody australians infesting this country?! ;)
Q. What do you call an Australian wearing a tie?
A. Bar manager
2 Pakistani women talking - one says ""I am so proud! we've been in Britain for only 6 months now, and my children can almost speak fluent Polish!""
get 'em while they are old folks! ;)
we need to lighten up on this pathetic 80's PC shit. We are in the EU and we all are different, and all have our little national traits & characteristics:
An Italian a Frenchman and a Brit, were discussing which nation were the greatest lovers of women!!
The Italian begins:
""Italians are ze best!.. When I make-a da love to-a tha woo-man, I cover 'er nakid body in-a rose petals, then i blow them off-a 'er body with-a the lightest breath!... IT DRIVES 'ER CRAZEE!""
The French guy says:
""Non non ze Fronch are ze best!!...When I mek tha luuuuurve to ze woman, I first cover 'er nekid body in ze finest champagne, zen i lick it off 'er body beet by beet!... IT DRIVES 'ER CRAZY!!""
The Brit guy says:
""That's nuttin! when get 'ome after a neets drinking, i shag my bird, then when i'm done I wipe me cock on her curtains!... IT DRIVES ER F*CKIN' CRAZY!!""
heh heh"
Hmm, I can't understand all the vitriol towards Sky - I can't remember seeing all this hatred when Murdoch supported Labour? It was alright then. Also, please stop defending Gordon Brown - he truly is a horrible man
"oooh spaull. your incisive devastating riposte has made me feel so small.
""in private"" my a_AT__AT_. This man cant be trusted to represent our country, the sooner this buffoon goes the better"
"So this is what British democracy has come to is it?
Sod policy, sod manifestos, sod using your brain.
Reduced to a tawdry tabloid spectacle.
Why bother thinking about the importance of your vote, that this an election about who will govern this country, about whether you want to live in a country where all it's people are included or one where the rich get to pig out in the trough and make the rest of us pay for it, about whether you want a society based on decent human values and respect, or one where we stigmatise others because of their colour and creed and use them as scapegoats for issues we don't want to actually have to think about.
Pathetic."
"""You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're ? but all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?""
Seems to me Brown was right."
"For light relief I read Guido Fawkes's blog. On this story I couldn't resist commenting:
""In the privacy of the car I?d have said pretty much the same thing. What I would have done differently is that I would have come out much more strongly in defence of myself; made it a Prezza moment.
""It?s about time people were called on their racists views. I know the dominant thoughts here and on sites like ?Have Your Say? are:
- they?re coming here nicking all our jobs; women; houses; benefits.
""But the truth is completely different, and I believe that outside of the blogosphere a large proportion of the public agree.
""Qualifying statement: I hate New Labour.""
There are 5 responses so far, the first and perhaps best being: -
""You sad piece of shit. The woman wasn?t being racist just expressing the widely held view that parts of our country are being swamped by foreigners who are driving down wages and putting intolerable pressure on housing, education, welfare services etc.
""Brown let slip what he really thinks of the average , white working-class Labour voter. He thinks they are just a load of bigots but he still wants their votes.""
Stupid, stupid, stupid me."
This is a non-story.
"The 'woman on the street' is allowed to voice opinions whilst a politician is not?
I find it quite refreshing to hear something honest coming out of a politician's mouth for once. This whole 'story' is a delicate glimpse at the inherent absurdity of any politcal campaign in a supposedly democratic country."
"Labour came a very close second to the Lib Dems in Rochdale at the last election. The Lib Dems have been working very hard to keep the seat. This must be a gift to them.
I saw the interview with the lady after the incident and when asked about Gordon Brown as a man she was careful to say that as a man she didn't know him but could only comment on him as a politician. If only Gordon Brown had stuck to criticising her opinions rather than her as a person.
But I also didn't like the way the journalists were chasing the poor woman down the street. She wanted to talk to a politician during the campaign as is her right. That doesn't give journalists the right to harass and exploit her."
"We live in a mostly white, British, Tory-voting area...
Yesterday I went to a cafe with my father. We were served by a young man.
This morning my neighbour came round and chatted to my partner.
Today I was served by a young man in Sports Direct. I then bought a coffee from woman in Pret a Manger. I came home to be greated by our cleaner. My partner is just going out to get the kids from school.
Every person referred to above has (or parents have) come to the UK since 1945. When are we going to see immigration as a positive thing?
What Gordon Brown should've said to Mrs Duffy;
Yes, many people have come to the UK from other countries. They have contributed to growing our economy by working hard - often for less money and with more enthusiasm than some of those already here.
By their nature immigrants also tend to be hard-working and aspirational, and unlike the indigenous population not constantly asking 'what the country will do for them', to paraphrase JFK."
Well done! Brown calls a bigot a bigot.
"Some Princes of Human Beings on here...
So some old lady talks about the issues that concern her - and most if not all of her generation - and SHE gets all the insults and slurs.
Not good old honest Gordon...
Gosh.... you really all must be so proud of yourselves...."
Once again we see the utter contempt in which Labour views the working people of this country.
Who the hell was "minding" him, and why contemplate going anywhere near Sky? Little to gain, everything to lose . . .
"The only difference between Brown and Cameron/Clegg is that they are more careful about taking their mic off.
It would be a quite unique election candidate didn't lose their cool, get tired and exasperated or say things behind closed doors that they wouldn't be prepared to say in public.
C'mon Sue (todays 'fixer'' apparently) make sure your man knows when he's on and off the record!"
"The only difference between Brown and Cameron/Clegg is that they are more careful about taking their mic off.
It would be a quite unique election candidate didn't lose their cool, get tired and exasperated or say things behind closed doors that they wouldn't be prepared to say in public.
C'mon Sue (todays 'fixer'' apparently) make sure your man knows when he's on and off the record!"
Is it my hearing, or does GB say "Good to see y'all" in a faintly deep-south accent before getting in the car?
She *was* a bigotted woman.
Doh! Spot the spelling mistake.
"_AT_mseymour
>>The EU may have been responsible for a lot of bad things but you can't have your cake and eat it. If you don't want 'all these eastern Europeans' you can't have friends and neighbours with second homes abroad that allow you to have cheapo holidays or (grand)kids, nephews and nieces who work abroad either.
Yes you can and Austria does, simply getting an opt-out clause<<
Well, Austria manages it! Austria got an opt-out clause on the 2004 and 2007 EU enlargement countries access to its labour market.. Additionally, immediately after Vienna entering the EU in 1995 Austria even banned all other original EU15 from aquiring second properties in Austria, fearing rich Germanys would take over the place and it would make housing unaffordable for its own citizens> (-I don't think the 1990's property opt out law still stand anyone know beeter?)
Why couldn't Britain (-in line with France, The Netherlands, Belguim, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, Italy and even impoverished Spain Portugal and Greece!) opt out of 2004 labour market expansion too?
Britain has out-outs on a barrage of other ""opt-outs"" of EU central tennets Euro, Shengen, the ""terro-related"" gumpf semi-opt of of EU Human Right Charter, Selectively ignoring EU Labour laws, and the embroynic EU Military command..
Why? Because The US told them to help the fanatical anti-Russian governments in Warsaw, Riga etc with workers remitannces..So London is pro europe for Latvian Labour rights but is then anti-Euro, anti-schengen, anti EU millitary THIS IS CIA REALPOLIK IN ACTION!
BTW the issue of class comes into this too, the people that are buying propeties in Tuscany or who's little Emily is doing an intership in Paris are not the same people who are being undercut by Polish, Latvian and Lithuanian labour...Darren from Dagenham has virtually ZERO chance of a job in France and Germany...
And working class pensioners with property abroad are usually located in Non EU territory like Turkey..The million British people in the EU stat are middle class old farts that are spending GBP on the med, not working....
And honestly why did the EU allow basket case Romania and Bulgaria in? Austria, Germany and the Netherlands were dead against it..These countries have hard core third world poverty and corruption...Tunisia is more ""european""!"
"_AT_DamirSpica
'who's going to clean your houses?'
'Who's going to make your doyble machiatto?'
Do you really think the average person in the UK can afford a cleaner?
Do you think Mrs Duffy has a cleaner?
Do you know what the unemployment rate is in Rochdale?
Can you pls explain to the people or Rochdale how an influx of Eastern Europeans benefits an area of high unemployment.
Do you think there is room for 70million people in the UK?
What percentage of Rochdale folk drink double machiatto?
Does the average cleaner pay tax or get paid cash in hand.
Does that benefit the economy? If he she does pay tax,
how much do you think that contributes per annum?
Could someone pls explain to Mrs Duffy"
the first time i have respected Brown. fair play to him. her comments are bigoted.
"Brown just can not win in this situation. The old woman is turned off, a certain portion of the public thinks Brown should have not backed down and some will feel he is always wrong.
About the only thing that would save him is if he were born Palin, who can say anything and not be called out.
As for me, if I could vote, I would have liked him to say, something like piss off old fart, but then this is the age of a remark being beat to death, like Dr Dean's shout in the US primaries, I can think of several others. But today's media and the instant replay has almost put real discussion to bed."
People saying something vague about some foreign group and moving on, you get the feeling they want to say more.
"Damir is a Bosnian moslem given British citizenship after the 1991-1995 civil war, He has nothing to do with the cheap transcient labour from Poland.
He's all for Labour...Why? becuause he hasn't lost his BiH citizenship either, saves his GBP salary in CHF and when the shit hits the fan in Britain he can easily go to Neum and buy an nice house surronded by Olives....
Where will your little Ryans go England?"
"Politicians slammed in media for not being honest with voters.
Politician is honest in opinion about a voter.
Politician gets slammed by the media.
It's no wonder they won't come clean on tackling the deficit and stating where they'll make cuts. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't."
Now Gordon Brown has run around to that dear lady's house and taken a gaggle of media and minders with him, she had asked him NoT to. But he'd walk out after 45 mins with a smarmy grin, that poor woman.
"this could be the moment for brown to turn things around.
his greatest weakness (as a politician, as a person) is that he doesn't know how to accept responsibility for his mistakes, how to apologise. he's always on the atttack (against his own aides, against people like duffy..)
he needs to take responsibility for his mistakes over bank regulation (and everything else)
obama knows how to do this. brown should learn from him."
"Damir is a Bosnian moslem given British citizenship after the 1991-1995 civil war, He has nothing to do with the cheap transcient labour from Poland.
He's all for Labour...Why? becuause he hasn't lost his BiH citizenship either, saves his GBP salary in CHF and when the shit hits the fan in Britain he can easily go to Neum and buy an nice house surronded by Olives....
Where will your little Ryans go England?"
Now Gordon Brown has run around to that dear lady's house and taken a gaggle of media and minders with him, she had asked him NoT to. But he'd walk out after 45 mins with a smarmy grin, that poor woman.
"this could be the moment for brown to turn things around.
his greatest weakness (as a politician, as a person) is that he doesn't know how to accept responsibility for his mistakes, how to apologise. he's always on the atttack (against his own aides, against people like duffy..)
he needs to take responsibility for his mistakes over bank regulation (and everything else)
obama knows how to do this. brown should learn from him."
another side of the problem is not being able to trust him when representing Britain on the world stage, I mean what if he had a meeting with other world leaders and forgot he had a microphone on and happened to tell the world that he thought Berlusconi was a disgusting old man for shagging underage girls, as well as been a filthy crook who was in cahoots with the mafia? just think what would happen to Britains reputation...
Neum BTW is a nice little cheap town on Bosnia's little tiny part of Adriatic Coast, surrounded by mandarin and olive groves nothing like Rochdale...
I'm sure that all politicians get sick to death of the racist rants they encounter when they meet the public. Unfortunately, he just sounded petulant - not very endearing. Still, it livens up the election campaign.
"_AT_Dobsky
An influx of immigrants helps the economy by boosting business and having better people in jobs. I honestly believe that if these people wanted jobs they would find them, the jobs are there, the Poles are finding them. But instead they're content to sit around on benefits watching Jeremy Kyle, being told by the Sun to blame foreigners for stealing their jobs. The real truth is that many of these people are completely unemployable.
I just wish Brown had had the guts to call her a bigot to her face, instead of being polite in public. I doubt she's racist, just stupid, but she IS a bigoted woman.
The scary thing is that so many people think like she does."
"I've lost count of the times that I've been charming to someone on the phone or in a meeting, then turned round and said true, but highly exaggerated and impolite things about them to colleagues.
Gordon a hypocrite? Aren't we all.
Gillian Duffy a bigot? Her comment was certainly , but it's a but mean to judge her, her life, her politics and her intelligence on the basis of one comment.
The media bitchy? Without a shadow of a doubt.
This incident affect the outcome of the election? I sincerely hope not. I would like to retain the tiniest shred of faith in the electorate."
If Brown had confronted a racist to his or her face and said, "You are a bigot", I could respect that. The difficulty in this case is that he actually made a good impression on her - she thought he was being friendly. From now on, any member of the public who has a friendly encounter with Gordon Brown is bound to wonder, "But what is he saying about me behind my back?"
Someone should get the Police to go and check Mrs Duffy is OK. She shouldn't have been left alone with the labour posse, that's bullying plain and simple.
This isn't the end of Brown - that happened some time ago. He was always going to lose the election and lead Labour to an historic defeat. This incident certainly makes good TV and will monopolise the column inches tomorrow but the reality is that Brown never had a chance of winning this election in the first place.
This isn't the end of Brown - that happened some time ago. He was always going to lose the election and lead Labour to an historic defeat. This incident certainly makes good TV and will monopolise the column inches tomorrow but the reality is that Brown never had a chance of winning this election in the first place.
"Whatever Gordon Brown said it is hardly earth shattering news !! ......In the hysteria of an election campaign I would like to remind Mrs Duffy and indeed the British People that our Westminster system of government allows the people to vote for the ""party"" it believes has the right values, economic responsibility, social contract to carry this country through to the next election... and ideally ... beyond . This aping of the American presidential system we seemingly have embraced is a distraction as to what the three major parties stand for . The party elects the leader .... and we the voting public elect the party representatives in each electorate. We already have a head of state!.. The Queen.
So whilst Gordon Brown might not be everyone's cup of tea.....; it would be trite of people to change their vote, because of a remark made in reaction to, a possibly, bigoted remark!
As for the reason eastern Europeans and other nationals are doing here ? well they are filling the jobs that British will not do!
Why are we in economic dire straights? because we rid ourselves of manufacturing and decided to become an nation of Bankers and financiers investing far to heavily in the US property market , without responsible regulation.
These are some of the questions the British public need to meditate on before they head to the pollings booths on 6th May."
"Re comment by wotswot ""that poor woman""
And the political commentators keep asking why ordinary people don't engage more with politics! I certainly wouldn't ask a question of a politician now in case I got chased by journalists.
I even worry about posting on this site having seen how the attacks so often become very personal."
"The hardcore Labour supporters on this thread are pretty disgusting. This was an old woman who spent her life working with handicapped children. She believed in Old Labour principles of a strong community that supports its vulnerable members. She feels that she no longer knows the people in her community and that people are losing out on their access to services because there is too much competition.
You can agree or disagree on the benefits or otherwise of immigration, but this is an old woman who is concerned at seeing the changes in her community and sounds all round like a decent human being. Afterwards, despite being hounded by the press she refused to pass comment on Brown's character on the basis that she doesn't know him- perhaps a principle he should learn.
Personally, I also think it is possible to have a more nuanced view on immigration than it is all good or all bad. We have a huge housing shortage, with over 2.5 million people on the waiting list for council houses, we have primary schools in some places with class sizes of over 50 and the majority of children without English as their first language. In what way do all of you who are so critical of people who object to immigration, argue that local people living in such areas are not harmed by immigration?
How are such people permitted to complain about these housing shortages and large class sizes without being considered bigoted?"
"Whatever Gordon Brown said it is hardly earth shattering news !! ......In the hysteria of an election campaign I would like to remind Mrs Duffy and indeed the British People that our Westminster system of government allows the people to vote for the ""party"" it believes has the right values, economic responsibility, social contract to carry this country through to the next election... and ideally ... beyond . This aping of the American presidential system we seemingly have embraced is a distraction as to what the three major parties stand for . The party elects the leader .... and we the voting public elect the party representatives in each electorate. We already have a head of state!.. The Queen.
So whilst Gordon Brown might not be everyone's cup of tea.....; it would be trite of people to change their vote, because of a remark made in reaction to, a possibly, bigoted remark!
As for the reason eastern Europeans and other nationals are doing here ? well they are filling the jobs that British will not do!
Why are we in economic dire straights? because we rid ourselves of manufacturing and decided to become an nation of Bankers and financiers investing far to heavily in the US property market , without responsible regulation.
These are some of the questions the British public need to meditate on before they head to the pollings booths on 6th May."
_AT_lilythepinky Duffy hardly gave him a 'racist rant', she asked him a few questions about the economy and happened to say the words 'eastern Europeans'.
_AT_lilythepinky Duffy hardly gave him a 'racist rant', she asked him a few questions about the economy and happened to say the words 'eastern Europeans'.
_AT_lilythepinky Duffy hardly gave him a 'racist rant', she asked him a few questions about the economy and happened to say the words 'eastern Europeans'.
Well...she was bigoted, can't deny that! I feel for GB, good to see something true behind the PR surface of politicians. I think he should find a job that's not as thankless as being PM in this country. You can't win in it.
Well...she was bigoted, can't deny that! I feel for GB, good to see something true behind the PR surface of politicians. I think he should find a job that's not as thankless as being PM in this country. You can't win in it.
"Ok let's break this down. Mrs Duffy who was a Labour supporter in the past was (quite justifiably) angry and indignant about lots of issues worrying and troubling millions of British people (including me). To Gordon Brown?s immense credit, he heard her out and gave her really good and sound answers. All credit to Mrs Duffy who I think should be commended for asking tough questions, I think she is an absolute star.
In all of this it would appear that Mrs Duffy was grateful for Mr Brown to spend the time and trouble dealing with serious and thorny issues that other leaders including Cameron and Clegg would rather have dived for cover. GB proves he?s only human with his little indiscretion which was overheard by a radio mike. The conversation he was having with a member of staff was private, albeit by wearing his radio mike (supplied by SKY NEWS) inadvertently, it is fair game for it to be broadcast.
What other of our leaders Cameron & Clegg included, have not made indiscrete throwaway remarks in the heat of the moment and following lively and engaged debate in the aftermath of a media scrum. Possibly, Cameron & Clegg have been much more insulting and offensive, but they alas have not been found out by the (secret) power of the concealed radio mike!
<Gordon Brown is guilty, guilty of being real and thinking human thoughts which were not in an attempt to belittle or attack Mrs Duffy, but to challenge the aspect of policy that she quite rightly put to him about immigration. Time for Gordon to engage with more real voters with feisty and forthright views ? I have no doubt he will win them round by his force of argument, integrity and passion for improving the lot of our people."
"In terms of how this plays though, the worst thing for Brown is not the comment itself but the sycophantic toadying to her before he made them. ""How many grandchildren? What names are they? Sounds like a lovely family"" All with his slimy grin. Only two seconds later to be sourly complaining and calling her a bigot.
But of course it's only Cameron who's the fake PR man isn't it? At least if Cameron slags off voters in private, he doesn't have to wipe the shit off his tongue before he starts doing it."
Seems like Gordon was giving an honest opinion. She is a bigot, he shouldn't have apologised. He shouldn't get stick for saying that, it's ridiculous.
"Ok let's break this down. Mrs Duffy who was a Labour supporter in the past was (quite justifiably) angry and indignant about lots of issues worrying and troubling millions of British people (including me). To Gordon Brown?s immense credit, he heard her out and gave her really good and sound answers. All credit to Mrs Duffy who I think should be commended for asking tough questions, I think she is an absolute star.
In all of this it would appear that Mrs Duffy was grateful for Mr Brown to spend the time and trouble dealing with serious and thorny issues that other leaders including Cameron and Clegg would rather have dived for cover. GB proves he?s only human with his little indiscretion which was overheard by a radio mike. The conversation he was having with a member of staff was private, albeit by wearing his radio mike (supplied by SKY NEWS) inadvertently, it is fair game for it to be broadcast.
What other of our leaders Cameron & Clegg included, have not made indiscrete throwaway remarks in the heat of the moment and following lively and engaged debate in the aftermath of a media scrum. Possibly, Cameron & Clegg have been much more insulting and offensive, but they alas have not been found out by the (secret) power of the concealed radio mike!
i>Gordon Brown is guilty, guilty of being real and thinking human thoughts which were not in an attempt to belittle or attack Mrs Duffy, but to challenge the aspect of policy that she quite rightly put to him about immigration. Time for Gordon to engage with more real voters with feisty and forthright views ? I have no doubt he will win them round by his force of argument, integrity and passion for improving the lot of our people."
"In terms of how this plays though, the worst thing for Brown is not the comment itself but the sycophantic toadying to her before he made them. ""How many grandchildren? What names are they? Sounds like a lovely family"" All with his slimy grin. Only two seconds later to be sourly complaining and calling her a bigot.
But of course it's only Cameron who's the fake PR man isn't it? At least if Cameron slags off voters in private, he doesn't have to wipe the shit off his tongue before he starts doing it."
Seems like Gordon was giving an honest opinion. She is a bigot, he shouldn't have apologised. He shouldn't get stick for saying that, it's ridiculous.
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41EN0x_LMh0
Its a song now"
"this incident displays the rift between Town and Country Labour, or New and Old Labour, or Labour that went to Uni vs Cloth Cap Labour.
New Labour don't care for the little person and the worthy heritage of the Labour movement. Its all about metropolitan high-life and some social engineering for political, rather than socio-economic, ends.
The Lib Dems have spotted that gap, and will take over the Left Liberal space from New Labour. All I can think of is the time the Yanks unbelievably voted Bush in for a second term, Kerry notwithstanding, and the UK has propped up a morally bankrupt government for even longer"
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41EN0x_LMh0
Bigoted the song!"
Brown should have come out and said something like. "We've just had a very frank conversation and, unfortunately, I have to stand by my original remark. Unfortunately she is part of a tiny minority in this country that has no appreciation of the massive good that immigrants have brought to this country throughout its history, from working tirelessly in the NHS to fighting side by side with British soldiers in WW2, and I told her face to face that I have no time for such views".
"Bigoted the song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41EN0x_LMh0"
"The other problem is that this has forced the Labour spin machine into a frenzy.
I'm opposed to anything that gives Mandelson face time."
"The other problem is that this has forced the Labour spin machine into a frenzy.
I'm opposed to anything that gives Mandelson face time."
"_AT_Cameronsagonner
What rubbish! Cameron has made a point of holding open discussions if you read the news and has been confronted many times by hecklers, egg throwers, men paid by the Mirror to follow him around in fancy dress and members of other parties who have attended to sabotage the events. In each and every case he has confronted them head on and engaged them in debate. Brown, by contrast has spent the campaign with small groups of Labour party members and it is notable that he was mostly angry at having had to speak to a normal voter, rather than that he called her a bigot."
"If you want to sell real hard core bigotry go to the provenance regions of these ""eastern europeans""..
-Ask for a beer in Russian in Riga and see want happens, (and don't worry all people over 35 know Russian but virtually all will pretend they don't)..
-Take your ""gay partner"" to the ""Malo Polska"" region of Poland go to the notoroius hard core Catho-fascist town of Stalowa Wola and look for a cheap room.
-On your way to the Dalmatia Coast stop off in Karlovac (-ok Croatia is not a EU country just for illustration) and ask for some ""hleb"" Bread in Serbian..
-Take your South asian friends To Debrecen! After a hard day travelling the magyars will mistake them for local Roma and be delightfully welcoming.."
this incident displays the rift between Town and Country Labour, or New and Old Labour, or Labour that went to Uni vs Cloth Cap Labour.New Labour don't care for the little person and the worthy heritage of the Labour movement. Its all about metropolitan high-life and some social engineering for political, rather than socio-economic, ends.The Lib Dems have spotted that gap, and will take over the Left Liberal space from New Labour. All I can think of is the time the Yanks unbelievably voted Bush in for a second term, Kerry notwithstanding, and the UK has propped up a morally bankrupt government for even longer
"Duffy interjected: ""You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're ? but all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?""
I think Mrs Duffy is right to be concerned.
I've been reading the Guardian since 1985, and I'm very concerned. We're shortly to become the most crowded country in Europe.
I'm with UKIP."
"I cant see what the problem is. He was not rude to her face, whilst it looks as if she was having a go. It was a bit of a disaster, was it not? Does not look good.
We were not meant to hear what he said, and if anyone thinks that no other politican says anything unfavourable about voters, I have some real estate to sell them. If your going to have your say, you should be prepared for someone to at least think something like this about you, or say it behind your back, like Gordon. I recently had my say about the treatment of some poor sloth bear, and got a rather evil reply from somebody who did not agree with me. I expected it, no good fainting dead away with shock. ."
So what we're not allowed to call someone with bigotted views a 'Bigot' anymore incase they're offended, its political correctness gone mad.
Im taking my brown frustrations out using the iphone app 'politician punch', very therapeutic!
"Unfortunately she is part of a tiny minority in this country that has no appreciation of the massive good that immigrants have brought to this country throughout its history, from working tirelessly in the NHS to fighting side by side with British soldiers in WW2, and I told her face to face that I have no time for such views""...
Utter PC Rubbish! Some of the grandfathers of the Latvian and Hungary immigrants were in the SS! Polish can gloat here they didn't produce Nazi quislings...
Has its ever crossed you mind that plenty of teenagers would love to be doctors and nurses and ""work tiressly in the NHS"" but find their application to medical school binned and have parents that can't fund them though nursing school?"
"Just listened to the full interview and despite the woman's rambling and disjointed comments, most of what she said was mostly innocuous moaning, Brown calling here bigoted and calling the episode a disaster was over the top.
I thought he spoke to her pretty decently and was able to answer her reasonably enough, although it was obvious electioneering.
Her comment about immigrants, 'Eastern Europeans? where are they all flocking from?'
That would be Eastern Europe."
"Just listened to the full interview and despite the woman's rambling and disjointed comments, most of what she said was mostly innocuous moaning, Brown calling here bigoted and calling the episode a disaster was over the top.
I thought he spoke to her pretty decently and was able to answer her reasonably enough, although it was obvious electioneering.
Her comment about immigrants, 'Eastern Europeans? where are they all flocking from?'
That would be Eastern Europe."
"I'm most disappointed with Brown.
If he thought she was bigoted -which she possibly was-, why the heck is he apologising?"
Why though, can't she dislike 'them Eastern Europeans" ? Is everyone compelled to like everyone else by Govt. decree?
Does he know what it is like to clean up his own mother's piss?
"Would have been much better for his street cred if he'd punched her in the face like prescott did to that yokel a few years back. Them were the days!
Regardless of your political allegiance you'd probably say thats that for the labour goverment.
Welcome your new PM David Cameron - God help us all!"
"To iamtharg:
Of course she can dislike 'them Eastern Europeans'. And that would make her a bigot. And Brown would be proved right.
You give the game away with your ""Govt. decree"". you're one of those raving nutters aren't you who thinks everything will be made OK by ultraliberal everything? Except when it comes back to bite you and then you'll suddenly fancy a bit of Government regulation and legislation."
"tottaly feel sorry for brown
i am NOT a member of the labour party but i will be voting labour at this election ...i am not going to let the tory press pick our prime minister.
this latest issue just proves that gordon brown is human.
dont dispair gordon i and many other support you
hitsoout"
"tottaly feel sorry for brown
i am NOT a member of the labour party but i will be voting labour at this election ...i am not going to let the tory press pick our prime minister.
this latest issue just proves that gordon brown is human.
dont dispair gordon i and many other support you
hitsoout"
"tottaly feel sorry for brown

election ...i am not going to let the tory press pick our prime minister.
this latest issue just proves that gordon brown is human.
dont dispair gordon i and many other support you
hitsoout"
"tottaly feel sorry for brown

election ...i am not going to let the tory press pick our prime minister.
this latest issue just proves that gordon brown is human.
dont dispair gordon i and many other support you
hitsoout"
"gordon brown
surely the man is capable of unclipping his microphone himself?
why blame sky?
The man is a foul tempered humourless bully>
He has my vote!!"
"tottaly feel sorry for brown

election ...i am not going to let the tory press pick our prime minister.
this latest issue just proves that gordon brown is human.
dont dispair gordon i and many other support you
hitsoout"
"Hang on a minute. Labour had requested that Brown wore the radio mike, so it's hardly the broadcaster's fault that he forgot to take it off.
Of course we've all done something similar in making an ill-considered remark about someone, we've all been two-faced like Gordon. However we're not all the Prime Minister.
Whether or not he was right to make the remark, the fact is that he reacts badly when challanged on any issue, and his initial reaction today was to try and blame one of his aides for putting him in a position where, god forbid, someone was able to challenge him directly. No wonder he hasn't been allowed to talk to real people until very recently.
GB is the biggest disadvantage that Labour have got in this campaign. I don't trust him and I don't want him to represent this country for a moment longer. He is an unelected Prime Minister and will never be elected to lead this country.
See ya Gord."
"If Brown said what he obviously feels about the bigotry in society instead of competing with Clegg and Cameron to see who can be toughest with 'the immigrants' he'd win a lot more respect and votes - and maybe even a general election.
He wasn't nasty to the lady, he kept his comments till later and apologised for any offence caused - and he didn't play the racist/anti-imigrant vote just to pick up the votes of idiots."
"Just for a moment there, I forgot myself. A politician saying the truth? Ah, yes, an unguarded moment. But we are all bigots one way or another, I guess.
Still, just for that moment I thought that perhaps I should vote for him. I know, silly idea really."
This remark just shows what contempt Brown and NLab have for the working class people this country. If NLab will not listen to the working class then I suggest the former core voters will respond in kind and vote out this anti working class party.
"Keep smiling Gordon. Dont let em grind you down.
Already Osborne is trying to exploit it for all he is worth. These things happen. You said sorry. That is the end of the matter.
Lets see if Cameron & Osborne can say sorry starting with the miners. Might take some time - there are 150,000 of them."
"There's still time for Borrow-on to hand over the job of Meeting And Greeting to Frankie Boyle.
But I'm sorry about this episode: it was such an interesting election, with signs that the electorate was doing some genuine thinking, and I really wanted to see what happened next. Now everyone's thown their thinking-caps out of the pram in favour of the easier option of simply chanting Nyerr-nyerdy-nyerr-nyerr, and what should have been a very trivial moment of human weakness is going to be allowed to blur the results - and political history for the foreseeable future. How British.
Come on, legal immigrants - cast a few serious votes for us: the home team's been nobbled. Again."
"Her comment about Eastern European immigrants was bigoted. Thankfully people in Europe didn't treat me with the same disrespect when I left to UK to take advantage of the opportunities offered by the EU's open borders.
The immigration debate is a ruse. Actual net migration is eff-all. I moved out of the UK, someone else from Europe moved in. She'll be whining about the Welsh next.
We have equal rights to move anywhere we see fit within Europe. Sadly, some people in the UK seem to forget that.
The woman made a comment that one of her family got stuck in Australia. More than likely emigrated there or worked for a year on a work visa.
Sorry, but she is a bigot.
Now back to the real issues. Why won't the Tories and Labour support PR? Not into one vote, one voice and a fair electoral system?"
At last! Something to have a laugh about.
"Hang on a sec. Labour had asked that Brown wear the radio mike, so you can hardly blame the broadcaster when he forgot to take it off.
Truth is that he immediately tried to blame one of his aides for putting him in that position in the first place. Typical GB. The fact that he then insulted one of his core voters, a lifelong Labour supporter, after being all smiles with her just plays in to the perception that GB he has no truck with anyone who disagrees with him or gives him a hard time, regardless of their party colours. In fact he treats them with disdain, and that's one of the reasons I just don't trust him.
The man is a liability to the Labour Party and to this country. He has never been elected PM and never will be. See ya Gord, you will not be missed."
No suprise that Guardian lefties support Brown so you are a bigot in questioning Imigration Mr Brown ? Its a joke he is the bigot it is not racist to question immigration policy and having concerns on the impact to services and employment the woman is right and echos many in this country. Only left wingers like most readers of this left wing paper would attack such a woman. Brown might as well pack his bags he is finished far as i am concerned..
What rubbish! Cameron has made a point of holding open discussions if you read the news and has been confronted many times by hecklers, egg throwers, men paid by the Mirror to follow him around in fancy dress and members of other parties who have attended to sabotage the events. In each and every case he has confronted them head on and engaged them in debate. Brown, by contrast has spent the campaign with small groups of Labour party members and it is notable that he was mostly angry at having had to speak to a normal voter, rather than that he called her a bigot.
First time I've heard him speak words without them being drizzled with PR slime - it's actually surprisingly refreshing.
Marimonster yes Cameron ( not a big fan) has handled the idiots well and has been constructive i wonder if he would resort to name calling because he disagreed with someones opinion on immigration?
The fact that he said she was "sort of a bigoted woman" doesn't really bother me - at the end of the day, she seeemed to be blaming everything from pensions to tuition fees on "all these eastern Europeans". Gordon Brown was a bit stupid to forget to check his microphone before he started slagging her off though. he's entitled to his opinion, but he should check next time that he's away from the cameras before he expresses it!
So he called her a bigot because she expressed bigotted views? Great bit of honesty there Gordon, and long may it continue.
"All the early comments from Guardian staff saying Brown was correst.
What morons to think you can fool us. You are all as stupid as Brown. Idiots.
where is your common sense. Brown is a disaster and not even worthy of a shop floor steward. Now get some sense into your heads or are you worried the Guardian will soon go bankrupt cause no more public sector adverts!!!!"
Hang on - I'm 62 and certainly don't think of myself as an "old woman" - some of the comments to date have been pretty ageist!
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"Gordon Brown has gone up hugely in my estimation by showing his true character and calling her a bigot.
He does not like bigots. That would get my vote if I was not already committed to voting Liberal to get the hung parliament that I think may keep New Labour from their right wing excesses...."
Apparently Gordon Brown called a woman bigot and she didn't like it. The thing is she was ranting about her ethnic prejudices while making no informed argument, which is my definition of bigotry. That's what I would term calling a shovel a shovel. If you don't want to be called a bigot, then don't be one in the first place.
"What is the problem ??? Shame on his entourage for allowing private comments to be picked up .....
Calling someone a bigot is hardly the end of the world ...... personally speaking I'd have sent the old racist hag to Auschwitz in December with a bikini to see how Eastern Europeans suffered under bigotry ..........
Is there no way she can be charged with inciting racial hatred on national TV ???"
Horror as Brown calls a spade a spade.
"I dont agree with the lady. She is as Gordon Brown said.
Gordon Brown was unfortunate and very human. Haven't we all done something like this? None of us should be too holier than thou about it. In fact I think he is to be commended for talking to her again and apologising. It was not a feeble apology - he went to her home. My estimation of him has gone up - he said what he thought.
He is desparate to talk about policy - why dont we get on with it? No doubt the Tory press and Cameron will have even more opportunity to not talk about his policies.
The other parties will love it but it inclines me to voting Labour even more."
"His job is to do what's best for this country. Not to be best friends with every citizen of it.
This incident just illustrates how he doesn't suffer fools- which I consider a valuable trait for someone in power to posses- and I respect him more for his display of human emotions."
She doesn'y say where are the Eastern Europeans coming from - 'flocking from' are her words, which is probably her being nice for the cameras when normally she'd say 'swarming'
"Gordon is a moron,
and fairly smarmy too. I bet this comment doesn't last long with the Gurniad bully-boy editors. My previous one disappeared very quickly."
"What this proves is that Gordon Brown is a perfectly normal human being, who, like the rest of us in the human race, say things in private moments which if made public would embarrass us.
What this saga also proves, is that there are some thoroughly vicious journalists out there who would stoop to an absolute nadir to defame someone. PATHETIC!!!"
"This makes me more likely to vote for him. I still haven't decided. But it makes me feel that his heart is not far from the right place.
The BBc report (News 18.00 R4) is over the top. Catastrophe etc.
Who cares about people dying of starvation, eco catstrophes, no what is really important is somebody letting off steam in such unguarded comments.
Imagine if sb ...er... broke wind. Or sb emitted an odour.
Harikari straight away. Only thing
This is a new kind of (reversed) social stiffness that reflects ideas of social protocol still predominant util the marvellous 1960s arrived."
"so what's wrong with callng a spade a spade ?? we all have strong opinions - Clegg called the Euro right wing ""nutters"" and rightly so.
Is this any different ???"
"So after both Labour and Tory Government's sign EU treaty after treaty allowing immigrants in huge numbers (pse note both France and Germany) did not sign up for this - they knew.
Why where we not consulted? Soon if Turkey join the EU 75 million will be free to come and live here - please don't insult my intelligence and say that they won't come - they will. I am heartily sick of not being consulted as they dismantle the country I love knowing full well the MAJORITY in the country do not want this.
What price democracy eh ?"
There are far too many 'good ol' fashioned working class' Labour supporters in Britain who are allowed to get away with their prejudiced views on the usual scapegoats, namely Muslims and Eastern European immigrants. I'm speaking in particular of the generation born before WW2 but it could also be applied equally to the younger underclass who for whatever reason (deindustrialisation, Thatcher, NuLab, etc) find themselves powerless and looking for someone to blame. Brown was right to call her a bigot....problem is he's gone and done a cowardly u-turn by apologising.
"What a desperate attempt to create a story...
Its now Mr Browns fault that you spend all day blogging his every move waiting for a story...news 24, live blogging etc etc caused this.
''where are they all flocking from'' yeah, its bigoted whats wrong with saying so?? I cant believe the desperation in the reporters voice when she went over to upset the woman ''do you know what he said, come on dont you feel angry and upset blah blah''
Lets focus on policy please, Im not a labour voter but this election is a farce thanks to the medias insistance on covering these sideshows and not focusing on real issues, who do you want as PM? SUSAN BOYLE??"
"She was a bigot, and Brown is now being criticised for the thing we do in any part of life. Its one thing in public and one thing in private.
And, we as a public demanded reality form politicians and now we don't like it. Hypocritical much?"
Can you say anything about immigration without being called a bigot? Presumably not if the comments here are anything to go by.
I am sure this is all a misunderstanding of his Kirkcaldy accent .... he called her a baguette not a bigot ....
If only there were some more important things we could be talking about in this election. If only there was a recession or something like that...
Blimey, aren't the party apparachiks out today? Was there a memo or a tweet I missed telling me to get online and support Gordy? I think I should be told................oh, hang on, I don't like Nu-Labour, I don't work for the Grauniad and I'm not employed by a loony local authority as a (fill in blank) outreach advisor. Silly me, that explains it.
"_AT_classm, _AT_HGAT _AT_dolphinx, _AT_davesocialistparty
and all the rest of you nasty pieces of work.
This 62 year old lady who spent her life working with handicapped children. In an entire conversation in which her main complaints were about services, taxes and university fees, she stated, ""You can't say anything about the immigrants. All these eastern Europeans what [sic] are coming in - where are they flocking from?"".
What a monster. As you say Dolphinx, send her to Auschwitz.
Who do you Labour supporters represent? How can you in your souls start spinning against this woman because Brown made a gaffe? What does the Labour Party and the left represent?
Quite simply Brown revealed, as do you all, your complete ignorance of the experience of working class people of all ethnicities in this country who are seeing their communities change, their wages undercut and their services reduced as a result of immigration."
This is not the disaster it might seem. Yes, he called the woman a bigot. She was a bigot, so fair play to him for calling it how it was. Questions should be asked how the press were able to record a private conversation. That is not on. Some journo fucker should get sacked for that.
"newPolitics :

Although in many respects I agree that racist and bigotted language is uncalled for (although often there seems to be justification for it in the eyes of some), the past decade has seen a Labour-masterminded move in which people cannot have a grown-up conversation about immigration. Any suggestion, even politely and intelligently put, that immigration can be a negative thing automatically elicits a response that either you, or at least your views, are bigotted and therefore worthless. The same goes for many topics that previously would have been well, if heatedly, debated. The new taboo is holding an opinion that differs from the great ""enlightened"" majority."
"I agree...some of the comments on here are getting a bit hysterical.


FFS! Unbelievable. What's more amusing is imagining your comments had it been Cameron, Gove, Grayling etc..."
"Is the fact that Osborne called Sakorsky the French PM short dwarf anything different? And that was in public. Sakorsky was furious but everyone makes mistakes.
Surely all these type of coments are human nature? We all say things even once in our lives which may hurt but we regret it and apologise.
Labour still have the best policies."
"_AT_capocannon
Pray tell, what discussion of immigration is not bigoted according to you? Perhaps we should completely eliminate all immigration controls completely? What would be the effects of such a policy in your opinion? At what point do you believe that immigrants would stop coming to the UK?"
"""all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?""
....er Eastern Europe?
Maybe she was just thick instead of bigoted?"
Bigoted (adj) ---- "behaviour typical of an obstinate adherent of a creed or view". Yes I think that describes what we saw today. Not from Gillian Duffy though.
The News Corporation Media Whores are really setting the agenda now. What a shame for British democracy.
Brown's got my vote - perhaps he should have socked her as well!
"_AT_lemonentry
So what are your values apart from wanting your tribe (Labour) to get in? Happy to insult and smear an old lady who spent her life working with handicapped kids I see.
A future fair for all (except those who disagree with us). I wonder why Labour are third in the polls?"
"Marimonster,
I am tempted to defend satire but as they say ""one should not mock the afflicted"" ....
Don't forget on May 6th it is a cross not a thumb print ....."
"Well said Culture Agent!
I feel a bit sorry for Mr Brown but I am so annoyed about all the media outcry about what he said!!!!!
Wasn't was she was saying about Eastern European bigoted?"
"I am the least bigoted or opinionated person I know.
I believe that Gordon Brown is a lying, plastic faced, unelectible, supercilious Scottish git. He really is so deeply in love with himself all he can see is his own colon.
I can see no reason why anyone would want to vote for him.
Now he is even turning off the bigots.
Good job well done today Gordon."
Are we sure she said "flocking"?
I wouldn't make a good politician - if someone is bigoted , say so. This pretence that 'the public' knows best would have left us in the dark ages....
Shit. He handles that pretty well and then just goes and fucks it up.
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Making a private conversation public is desperate journalism. I think many will vote for poor old Gordon out of sympathy after this.
"The only thing that is wrong here is that he didn't say it to her face.
People are all too afraid to confront racism on the spot. However, this leak has given me more respect for brown. So, heres a politician who as it turns out isn't a bigot himself. He actually believes what he preaches."
"Not a pleasant aspect of his personality.
I do not feel comfortable about him at all."
Lord knows what his (and the other candidates) comments have been about other real people - this country is full of bigoted people, and worse. This was mild, but obviously (a) political suicide and (b) fodder for his enemies (c) extremely newsworthy in the way that we are fed trash on a daily basis. Mud slinging, mind-numbingly trivial. There is an expectation that politicians should be virtuous. He is human, all too so.
Murdoch strikes again.
"HGAT,
alas ""flocking"" in Rochdalese is frequently interchanged with a vulgar word ...
I am afraid the woman is a not only a bigot, but a VULGAR bigot ...."
"Seems like Hycinth Mandelson's theory of :
""Fuck 'em -cos they [working calss labour voters] haven't got anyone else to vote fo anyway""
is rpidly falling down like a pack of cards....."
"My thoughts exactly Stan. Pity that there are many (more than I expected) happy with what he has said and insisting it's OK. For instance:

Brown set the agenda, he could have siad ""where to now"" when he got in the car...unfortunately he didn't and preferred insulting a member of the public who it seems is a lifelong supporter of labour, doers much work locally for disabled etc (even at the end of the meeting she said congratulations and hoped he would win...) even after that he slags her off. Yet some cretins still attempt to defend the indefensible."
"ifshespins
28 Apr 2010, 1:14PM
What's the fuss about?
Well if you listen to what the woman said if you say the word immigrant then thats it your a racist bigot!
I hate immigration on an environmental stand point, call me a bigot i dont care!"
I'd have more admiration for him if he stood by what he said, it does seem that she probably was bigotted and it would be refreshing for him to sacrifice one Labour vote for a bit of honesty. The constant drive to appease EVERYONE is what is making politics uninteresting.
"_AT_marimonster
It was wrong for the press to broadcast a private conversation. They had no right or permission to do that. How can a fair election be held if the press can influence voters with a smear campaign against one of the candidates? Regardless of what political party I might lean towards, it is wrong on so many accounts to humiliate a politician like this on the eve of an election.
As for the lady being a bigot, many people can portray themselves as pillars of the community and still be capable of racist and prejudiced beliefs."
"_AT_dolphinx
Apologies, but satire is a redundant currency on the Guardian."
"""Where are they FLOCKING from""
can clearly be misheard.
If Gordon Brown misheard the conversation, this is rather a non story.
It just shows how dumbed down 24 hour news has become.
This election campaign clearly needs the eye of Charlie Brooker & Newswipe."
"_AT_lemonentry

... are you kidding? You are aren't you? This is journalism we're talking about - this shit sells (sorry - it just does - look at the number of comments on this story so far and it's only just come out).
Far more like that the journo ""fucker"" in question will receive some kind of bonus and a strategy put in place to maximize the chance of something like this happening again."
"dolphinx:
are you saying that people in Rochdale are more frequently vulgar than people elsewhere? I didn't hear any vulgar language from that lady.
Now I am feeling angry at what appears to be an ad-hominem argument targeting all the people of Rochdale."
"If he thought that the woman's remarks were bigoted, and it seems that they might have been, then why has he phoned to apologise?
Two-faced twat"
"marimomster,
Apologies accepted.....I am off to make sure I get the only Tory MP kicked out of Scotland .......
P.S. I am bigotted against Tories, but I will not be voting Labour :"
... and what did she actually say by the way? I've only seen that 2 minutes up there. I have no way of judging whether she was bigoted or just concerned on that evidence.
"I'm relieved and impressed so many comments are dismissing this as a storm in a teacup. It's just mischeif-making, story hungry journalists blowing it totally out of proportion.
If Gordon had lost his temper or said something really undignified there might be cause for concern. But muttering something under his breath which was arguably fair comment doesn't concern me in the slightest."
"_AT_marimonster who said:
""Happy to insult and smear an old lady who spent her life working with handicapped kids I see.""
Yeah right! I wonder if she's ever had to work with Polish handicapped children!!!! An old lady quite happy to insult foreigners!!!!
I believe she is appearing on GMTV tomorrow! I hope she can explain the meaning of her comments there and then!!!!"
"Can?t believe some of the comments on here!
It?s another example of us and them, Brown probably thinks you?re all pie eating bigots on the dole with 30 kids, I?d hate to think what Mandelson thinks. A fine example of why politics in this country isn?t working, and democracy doesn?t exist. When is someone going to do something because we need serious help
Call someone a bigot as he gets in to his shofer driven merc back to 1 of million pound properties, but I guess it?s easier to take it out on an elderly woman when you don't understand the way the 'other half' live
for me it?s not the calling her a bigot it?s more how two faced he was, the laughing and joking, how's the grand kid...and then?you daft racist!"
So he made a comment about a bigotted woman in the privacy of his car? Get some perspective, no-one died and he didn't swear just pointed out the truth.
There wil be always a bigoted people in politics, journalism, religion, sports, and so on. No one can put him/herself in a pedestal. How many of those hypocrites now condemning Gordon didn't behave like him at least once? Economy goes wrong? Blame the immigrants! Man U is going to lose the premiership? Blame the immigrants! High level of crime? Blame the immigrants! Volcano ash cloud? Blame the immigrants! Suine flu? Blame the immigrants! Greed in the City? Blame the immigrants! Child sex abuse? Blame the immigrants! God is sleeping? Blame the immigrants. Oh dear! How much counteless hardworking and honest people coming from overseas have given to the economy and the development of his country? We live in one world. How many millions Brtions have chosen countries worldwide to live and give their best? Gordon did bad in his comments but he is not the only sinner in this kind of behaviour. I like the way he defends the issue of immigration although I tend to agree with Clegg's approach to tackle it.
"Quote: ""... but all these eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from?""
Eastern Europeans, where do they come from? China?"
"Calm down everyone, sounds like he called her ""bigger tit woman"". So a compliment, if anything.
I'm a UK citizen, I live in Germany. As far as I'm concerned an ""Eastern European"" can have my place. And frankly, if this lady emigrated, there'd be room for two more.
But let's get one thing straight here: much of ""Eastern Europe"" is in the EU. Therefore as many Poles, Czechs, Hungarians etc as see fit can move to the UK legally, work here, pick your fruit, wash your dishes, and do all the jobs you don't want to do, probably better. And as many Brits who want to can live in one of the other 26 EU countries. This is a beautiful thing.
I have worked with enough Eastern European immigrants, and am even married to one. Let's start appreciating the benefits immigrants bring, culturally and economically."
"The true face of a thoroughly nasty unelected Prime Minister and the true face of thoroughly nasty neo communist partly. If this had been Cameron in a similar siuation he would be condemned to high heaven by the loony left gutter press.
Make New Labour history come the 6th of May, the sooner the better."
I fully support Gordon Brown and the comments he thought he was making in private. Gordon Brown is human and should be entitled to display honest opinions. He does not have to be in agreement with what every member of the public thinks. I strongly believe that Gordon Brown should not have apologised for his comments!
"whats more insulting is Dave 'I love darts and X Factor me' Cameron pretending he's some sort of everyman when actually everyone with an ounce of sense knows the mask comes straight off on May 7th when he unties and ungags the rest of his hurray henry party.
What would anyone say about that woman when they got back into their own car? ""O she was nice wasnt she? What a fabulously enlightened woman""
What Brown really did wrong was to go back to the house and after 45 minutes emerge with his big grin like he'd just got married.
Did Mandelson get Gordon to do some Pavlovian training where every time he detects theres a camera on he has to grin like a cheshire, if not he gets his balls electrified?"
"I just watched the whole conversation. What's interesting is that to my ears she sounds perfectly reasonable - criticizing Gordon on one hand, admitting the things she thought were good - she doesn't say anything bigoted - she expresses her concern about immigration about as articulately as anything else she tried to explain. In the context of the other things she said it sounds reasonably consistent.
I am dismayed that some posters have insinuated that she might be a ""thick"" - just because she's not a middle class Guardian reader with a university education and therefore doesn't express herself in an educated way doesn't make her thick.
Her immigration concerns are typical of someone from her generation and class in her area, although to our middle-class university educated ears I agree it does sound bigoted. Gordon should be glad she was still willing to vote labour - and to his credit he did apologise quite genuinely as far as I can see. He just found the conversation a bit difficult and was sounding off in the car - and on reflection I believe he genuinely realised she wasn't a bigot. Actually, given all her concerns her continued loyalty to the Labour party was quite admirable.
It was though, a really terrible gaffe, probably the gaffe of the election and just the kind of thing the BNP will make capital out of I'm afraid."
Did anyone else thin Ron Atkinson when this broke?
Gillian Duffy for the next speaker of the house of commons, MP's need a plain speaking northerner to keep them under control.
"When encountering bigots, smile sweetly, say, ""I can't agree with you on that,"" and walk away.
Being 'miked up' is no excuse for this appalling lapse, however angry you are.
What it really reveals is just how out of touch with the voters Gordon is after 13 years.
I've seen similar behaviour in long standing councillors. After a time they think they are the only source of wisdom and every other popular opinion is one of misinformation or prejudice.
Largely this is the fault of the professional civil servants who advise such people, who regard the 'public' with disdain and as an irritant that they need to placate from time to time.
I feel very sorry for Gordon and will not condemn him, even though I would never vote for him. He is a victim of the system. A talented man whose talents have been directed in entirely the wrong direction."
"The Guardian shoved this story quickly downpage hoping nobody will notice.
His colleagues always hinted at it; we always suspected it; Brown always denied it. But yes, he is a overbearing foulmouthed bully. If this is how he treats voters in full public view we can easily imagine what goes on when he thinks nobody is listening or watching or will dare to say anything.
Brown has character flaws that make him not fit to be prime minister or even an MP. Polly Toynbee said it and we all want it: Brown must go.
Polly Toynbee wrote in the Guardian last year:
""The one character who has been tested to final destruction is Gordon Brown. The music stopped on his watch, first for the economy and now MPs' sleaze, for which the government of the day takes most blame.
""It's all over for Brown and Labour. The abyss awaits. As long as he remains leader, there is nothing that wretched Labour candidates can plausibly say ...""
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/11/labour-gordon-brown"
I haven't seen pensioners scupper a political figure since the 1996 Springfield Mayoral Elections when Sideshow Bob's Republican backers screwed-over poor old Diamond Joe Quimby - and that was organised by Murdoch, too!
"The fuss people are making you'd have thought he'd said ""Stupid Slerg"".
Grow up people. People are entitled to an opinion."
"_AT_dattoria
To a large extent I agree with you. I live in an area where in the past 10 years we have seen our first real influx of immigrants (mainly, but not exclusively, from Poland).
These are not them as opposed to us, but even for myself I have found it rather unsettling. I am prepared to develop in order that I no longer feel unsettled, for I do not see what right a white person of mixed origins living in a country of a diverse racial mix has to say ""no more immigrants"".
However, the immigration debate (should it be permitted) covers a wide-range of complex issues. It is very difficult for people when they're made redundant one week, then the next the ""new kid on the block"" gets a similar job, albeit at half the wage.
I think we also need to look at the exploitation of immigrants, as one commenter mentioned earlier. The ability of businesses to pay immigrants a fraction of what they would a British-born person (whether that is done legally or illegally) needs to be addressed.
The issue cannot be resolved by a party that clings to dogmatic beliefs of over-inflated bureaucracy and social-engineering resulting in a situation where differing views are not valued. The New Labour motto:"
"Brown is completely in the wrong here but it's nice to hear him speaking off-script for a change.
The most surprising thing is the number of people on here who agree with what he said. Pretty fucking disgusting that a working class woman is automatically branded a racist and a bigot just for mentioning immigration and eastern Europeans."
Well done Gordon. Stick to your principles when everybody else is losing theirs. This is no beauty contest. It's about telling people how it is, and those of you who want to vote Tory (or Lib Dem) and take us back to the dark ages of opportunism and demagoguery should beware what you wish for. On your heads be it.
"Who knows where this might turn. Will Cameron and Clegg try to make capital out of it? Will Brown then retaliate by sticking a St George flag outside his bedroom window at number 10?
Maybe he'll do tommorows debate in a cockney accent? At least Cameron's 'I met a 40 year old black man and she told me (insert some made up bullxxxx that showed you weren't even listening)' gaff sort of evens this out."
Does anyone know what Malcom Tucker has to say about all of this?
"What was it that Brown said?
""No return to boom and bust""?
""British jobs for British workers""?
""No return to boom and bigots""?
The man is just a seething mass of authoritarian intolerance. She was lucky he didn't throw a printer/fax machine/mobile phone/any available office machinery at her."
"If there is one thing I would change about the UK it is the negativity. Those of you who continually write how shit it is here should move. Time for you to move on because life is too short.
Thank god for New Labour, now some of you middle class psuedo socialist twats can shit on people like Mrs Duffy and not be pulled up over it. It must have been unbearable all those years of having to show solidarity for the working class, with all their nasty little ways and prejudices. You have now got immigrants to sidle up to and get some street cred off, until they are no longer useful, then you will find some other deserving group to shower your support on."
Well, what of it? I'm not a Labour voter and even I can see that woman is a bigot. I hope this actually helps Gordon, to be honest. Why on earth is there anything wrong with trying to be polite in public and saying something else in private? We all do that in pubic situations like so. Here was a man who's spent his entire adult life trying incredibly hard to make things fairer for all and then he was faced with this woman with utterly absurd hearsay arguments. It must, at times, for someone like him, be very frustrating. Shame he didn't go further and say it to her face - something like, 'Madam, you are a bigot and I hope I never see you again; have a good day'.
Utterly depressing, hysterical playground-level tripe that makes me ashamed to have at one time been a journalist reporting this kind of nonsense. The great majority of public figures, quite categorically including Cameron, Clegg and their teams, will no doubt at times be frustrated, exasperated and - particularly at highly stressful moments - foul mouthed. All parties have some supporters whose views privately appall them. This woman was just exhibiting the casual, commonplace, unconscious racism of the many: phrases like 'they' are taking 'all the jobs and houses' are just factually incorrect. As for the media, this feels more like kids giggling when they hear a swear word - glee at having caught 'angry' Brown out being momentarily annoyed. For god's sake (I'm screaming to no-one in particular), this is a general election, to decide what values are going to guide our country for the next five years. I don't warm to Brown, but why does his personality matter so much (does anyone imagine Winston Churchill would have survived this level of scrutiny?). He's got a record of making relatively good calls and the alternatives are *not* interchangeable.
"Speaking as an emigrant to France I'm happy the French are so understanding. My kids were born in Spain, mainly speak French but have a British passport. But is immigration really a problem in the UK? My dear old mum tells me about the Poles, but I went to school with sons of the Poles who moved here during the war, along with grandsons of Italians who moved here at the turn of the century. Probably there's immigrant blood in me too somewhere. French I hope. I defensively told a French friend I was really a Celt returning to my French heritage but that she came from the Franks, who were German, and by the way her father was Italian too. Europe was always like this! The Angles and Saxons were Germanic for Pete's sake.
So it's just about jobs isn't it? Yet they are clearly doing the work at a rate no Brit would do it for. So are they really taking someone else's job, or are they creating wealth for the benefit of all? Where would America be without their entrepreneurial immigrants? Trouble is, in an economic downturn people always turn to petty nationalism; the last despression ended up with a world war. Thank heaven for the EU eh, it's kept the peace ever since. As said on ""Auf Weidersehn, pet"", ""why get so ridiculously nationalistic for the country that couldn't give you a job?"" I'm off for a Pastis."
I wouldn't vote Labour either but I think this is ridiculous. Policies are important, our future is important. What isn't important is a private remark made by the PM sensationalized in the press as if we are all so low and stupid as to want to live in the pages of Hello Mag.
"If you call someone a bigot then you have to explain why you think so. From what I heard Mrs Duffy say, it is not possible to tell if she was a bigot or not. Personally I doubt she is.
Sadly, Gordon seems to have lost the plot. Run through the sequence: Blair and Brown have run neo-liberal economic policies since 1997, deregulating the financial industry and the banks further; got us, with their Bushy mates into a global economic crisis, pushing unemployment up very high. At the same time they have pushed free marketism in the EU - against the EU social model - which they both hate (i.e. employment rights and collective bargaining as well as rights for migrant workers - failing to do very much for the most vulnerable migrants in the UK - remember the Chinese cockle pickers?). Blair and Brown have created an abominable mess and now they have become trapped in it themselves.
I feel very sorry for Mrs Duffy, for that beleaguered Scot, Mr Brown and the whole bloody country. The BNP will have a field day and that is despite the fact that the Brits - English as well as Scots and Welsh and all those brown-skinned people inside the UK and throughout the 'Empire' held alone against the Nazis for those terrible years. And the BNP are Nazis, pure and simple."
"I agree with the lady. The white working class feel that they've been shafted and now have nobody to represent their hopes and fears except, maybe the vultures in the natzi BNP. That's the stage we've come to. She obviously has fears that are shared by millions of others but nobody is addressing them. Off message working class people have always been treated with contempt by the Tories and now they've been joined by Nulabour. Native working class people in the UK have been totally disenfranchised.
WTF do the likes of GB know what it's like to live as an unskilled worker in places like Rochdale? How do they answer the charges that cheap foreign labour is being imported to drive down wages and replace local labour? By calling anybody who questions it a racist and a bigot.
No wonder the Nulabour party is going to get blitzed at the election. Ordinary people no longer have anybody to vote for but plenty of politians to vote against."
"Here's a transcript of the interview:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8649448.stm
She certainly didn't come across as the most reasonable lady, and I don't blame Brown for getting frustrated with her. She sounds like somebody who gets her information from Murdoch press."
I expect Cameron will defend everybodys right to attack forieghners
I expect Cameron will defend everybodys right to attack forieghners
"to think i was feeling guilty about not voting Labour this time.
And to all the classist commenters on this thread: try finding work in Rochdale before you post another snidy bourgeuois criticism. You lot are the reason the BNP gets a million votes - shame on you"
"_AT_DJ Taylor

Look - my mum is dark-skinned lives in a working class neighborhood and reads the Daily Mail! Oh. My. God. She is such a terrible person because she gets all her information from a right-wing source.
This woman is just sounding off about her area using the discourse she is used to, which, sorry to say Mr. wasn't learned by going to university and studying social sciences or reading the Guardian - but through her experience living in her neighborhood.
_AT_integralidiot

Quite. I don't think us Guardian reader's realise how hypocritical we sound sometimes. We need to have the immigration debate with working class people in tough areas rationally without fear, without dismissing them as ""bigots"" and without appearing to talk down to them. Failure to do so does play into the hands of the likes of the BNP."
Out of curiosity - who exactly are the "white working class"?
"_AT_HGAT

I would ask the same question. It's a term I never use and i can't see why we don't just say ""working class"" people from a certain area, in this case for instance Rochdale.
I've always suspected it was a term popularised by the far right that - another reason to avoid using it."
apologies to all the cifers but I had to say it - wtf is Brown doing being wired up to a Sky News mic? Is he mad or just deluded? They support Cammeron and hate Labour - OFFICIAL!
"The main parties continue to side step the two major issues: who is going to suffer to cut government debt and how are they going to limit immigration.
The lady was quite entitled to ask the pertinent question. Here is an extract from elsewhere:
""Ethnic populations in Rochdale, ten miles north of Manchester, have been rising so fast that the Home Office has been warned it is at risk of race riots and the council has had to draw up a special housing plan for minorities.
Government research last year showed more than a quarter of primary school pupils in Rochdale spoke English as a foreign language. At one school, Heybrook Primary, every single one of the 453 pupils spoke English as a second language.
Census figures have shown that while the white population is actually falling by 2.3 per cent a decade, the Asian population is doubling every 20 years thanks to high birth rates . One church has reacted by offering services in Urdu and Punjabi.
Statistics produced in 2006 counted 16,000 people of Pakistani-origin in Rochdale, one in twelfth of the population, along with 3,100 Bangladeshis, and another 8,000 non-whites.
On top of that there were another 5,000 eastern Europeans and other non-British whites.
Yet even in the four years since those figures were produced, the ethnic minority numbers have grown rapidly.
Rochdale Borough Council recently produced a special 'Black and Minority Ethnic' housing strategy for the town 'in recognition of the increasing ethnic diversity in Rochdale' and the minorities' 'level of housing need'.
The council document notes: 'In 2007, Rochdale borough had a black and minority ethnic population of 12 per cent, which is projected to increase to 20 per cent by 2021.'
Three years ago it was reported that taxpayers were funding the refurbishment of 500 homes a year for asylum seekers in Rochdale - at a cost of £3,000 a time, with fittings including, freezers, microwaves and even ash trays.""
In what way was the lady in question being ""bigotted""? The fact is that Brown was put on the spot and had no reply. He knows, as we do, that the government has no control over immigrant numbers from other EU states. Membership of the EU guarantees freedom of movement and as the EU expands, the UK can expect another flood of would-be settlers.
It has nothing to do with race, creed, or whatever, but everything to do with surface area. Are we going to sit back and allow the population density to increase without bound? The infrastructure in many parts of the country can't cope as it is. Or are we going to try to preserve some quality of life? If the latter, there is only one option: secede from the EU. That means voting for UKIP, there is no other way."
Rochdale resident, Dwight van Dryver, is going to vote anti-immigration?
Guess we won't ever know exactly what she said... but all I take from this is that Gordon Brown gets politely hacked off at having to deal with ignorantly bigoted people, not least because there's a heck of a lot of them out there and they all get a vote. Call me naively liberal, but this only puts him up a notch in my estimation...
"_AT_Dwight van Dryver

Then why does your (unsourced) report mention ethnicity so much? You are right - it should have nothing to do with race, but the report you quote repeatedly conflates many different issues, such as the white/non white ratio trends, recent European migrants, and employment (which is in fact what the whole thing is about).
Immigration is not about racial issues but about employment opportunities. So stop telling me stuff I don't need to know about how many whites and blacks there are if it's not the issue. It's parties like UKIP and the BNP who make this about race."
Ronketti What patronising tosh so you enlightened Guardian readers need to educate us do you ? why don't you take your blinkers of and look and examine your PC opinions for once instead of thinking your in the right immigration is a problem thanks in part to being in the undemocratic EU which most of the Guardian readership probably supports .Its not racist or backwards to critisise immigration this is suppose to be our country and the government our elected representives not a club which pushes a agenda supported by papers like The Guardian .
"_AT_freedom34
... yes, I realise I sounded a bit patronising. Sorry, guilty of the very thing I was railing against!"
"HGAT
You bet. As it happens, I don't live in Rochdale, but in Stoke where the same problem exists. If you look at the LibDem's policy, their response is to set a cap on immigration for the South, South-East, and London. They will bias immigration towards the North, which is bursting at the seams as it is.
So, clearly, the LibDems have an ""out of sight, out of mind"" approach to the political realities, as do the other main parties.
Frank Field (Labour) has spoken long and hard over the years as to what unlimited immigration has meant in his constituency and the undesirable consequences of it, but Labour has ignored him. But nothing can be done under EU law. For its own self-preservation, the UK must get out of the EU and only UKIP offers the choice."
"What's the fuss about?
Can't agree more."
"_AT_freedom34
... and one of many reasons why I would be a terrible politician and should probably steer clear of these threads."
"At 11.49 Central European Time on March 21 2010 the world population was an estimated 6,809,832,049; by 11.50 it was 6,809,832,191. Within a minute there were an extra 142 people on the planet.
Perhaps this is more an issue of procreation than of immigration."
"ronketti
Rubbish. ""Immigration is not about racial issues but about employment opportunities."" I've never heard such a load of twaddle. Immigration is about neither of these things. The attraction for EU immigrants to this country is the ""soft landing"" they get when they arrive here. The state bends over backwards to accommodate them.
Before you make such crass remarks, I suggest you apply to the Australian authorities to emigrate. You will see just how difficult it is."
"Spanows
""FFS! Unbelievable. What's more amusing is imagining your comments had it been Cameron, Gove, Grayling etc...""
Very presumptive!
I'd have said the same for the above!"
"Immigration is not about employment issues? It's about ""soft landings""? I thought you said it was about surface area?
My Dad lives in Australia. You're right. Massively hard to get citizenship - crazy really surface area isn't a big problem there.
Your argument makes no sense. You start off by quoting loads of statistics about the ethic profile trend in Rochdale, then you say immigration is nothing to do with race. Then you say it has nothing to do with employment. Now it's about ""soft landings"". Do make up your mind will you and try and present a well constructed argument."
"_AT_DVD again
and btw if you read my posts you'll see that I'm not denying that immigration is an issue."
"_AT_DVD
... nor do I think the lady was a bigot...."
"I think this shows that, deep down in their hearts, Labour leaders are honest people.
They don't just SAY that everyone who disagrees with them is a bigot; they truly BELIEVE it."
"Totally don't get the fuss about this. So Mr Brown called a bigoted woman a bigoted woman.
Now, if you want to talk about politicians behaving badly and calling people bad names, have a look at Julius Malema, ANCYL (South Africa) and his treatment of Jonah Fischer.
Sky News needs a British version of Julius Malema. He'd keep them busy all day long. Please, we've had enough of him, you Brits can have him."
"Mrs Gillian Duffy is not a bigot and her remarks were not bigoted either.
She sounded like an exasperated older woman having great difficulties coming to terms with the social and economical changes happening around her, many of which are very worrying.
I would say she captured the mood of a good segment of the electorate.
Gordon was exasperated too by her remarks, which were genuine grievances, and were based on front line facts. That it annoyed him shows that it touched a very sensitive and tender chord, but one cannot avoid facts, one can only deal with them, and however painful, the only way is through... ignoring genuine grievances, not addressing them will only make matters worse, so I wish from him that realistic and Labour core values genuine answers (after all the lady has been so far a supporter of the Labour party for 30 years) need to be sought.
Clearly the status quo is not the correct answer anymore...
maybe Gillian Duffy was not articulate enough to express her views more elegantly, but I do understand her grievances and empathize with them.
One simple rule of thumb why she is not a bigot, she is not a member of the BNP or the UKIP...
As Sky News, they do not seem to have the interests of the UK at heart, but rather that of their boss at News Corp, and it is a shame that David Cameron, who claimed lately that winning the election was the patriotic thing to do will associate with such manipulative self interested corporatists..."
"but she is a bigot, no ?
Who advised him to go back to her house?
dick."
Headline: 'Gordon Brown makes comments in private about people he meets: welcome to the human race.' This incident is being blown out of all proportion - cheap political point scoring that might just backfire.
"_AT_cajunwoman
Totally agree (though not with taking him off your hands) - Malema is in another league entirely, though our closest thing is some of the crazies in the BNP - but even they have to make some attempt to moderate their bigotry lest they fall foul of the law."
Taken a while to register especially to say, go on Gordon, well done, rightly miffed at the silly old woman......and as for Sky reports on the matter..... pathetically biased, Go Gordon, he's got the right mentality and manner for that kind of job.
"_AT_Freeburd
Taken a while to register especially to say, go on Gordon, well done, rightly miffed at the silly old woman
... a silly old woman who has been a lifelong Labour supporter and shares concerns that are probably representative of Labours traditional core voters. Yes, well done Gordon.
Go Gordon, he's got the right mentality and manner for that kind of job.
If the job is alienating traditional ""old"" Labour core voters, then for sure."
"Wow, this is fun ...left wing people deciding if a a Rochdale person is a bigot..mmm
She appears to be a lady who lives with local issues...beyond even Guardian readers...low wages..low esteem..low expectations.
No party is really responsilble for this ...but all of them have to see , like this lady that all is not well out there!
It is a shame that that the 'chattering classses' from the left are looking down their noses at her.......I thought better from you."
"Wow, this is fun ...left wing people deciding if a a Rochdale person is a bigot..mmm
She appears to be a lady who lives with local issues...beyond even Guardian readers...low wages..low esteem..low expectations.
No party is really responsilble for this ...but all of them have to see , like this lady that all is not well out there!
It is a shame that that the 'chattering classses' from the left are looking down their noses at her.......I thought better from you."
"This was always going to be a very dirty election. It was always going to be a very ruthless affair with the gloves off. And Murdoch's cronies, as the most ruthless, were always going to look for any chance to catch Brown out.
Brown's crime is to allow himself to be this easily caught out. He really should have seen something like this coming.
I feel pretty sorry for Gillian Duffy. She is now going to find herself used, exploited and then discarded by the Tory press and simultaneously she's going to be labelled, reviled and insulted by New Labour apologists. She wasn't knowingly taking part in any kind of cheap stunt, she looked genuinely shocked and upset when SKY gleefully told her that Brown had disparaged her. I expect she can now look forward to a week of the British media hounding her on her own front door step. Not much fun for her.
The last week of the election is going to be the dirtiest of all. For goodness sake watch out Nick Clegg. Murdoch's pack of wolves will do anything to get their master a Cameron majority."
That woman's remark was plainly an indication of bogotry and Brown FOR ONCE, made the right call. She expressed concern at the mere presence of "all these eastern europeans". There was no further rationale from her to explain her concern. No comment about integration or any other negative impact of all these immigrants. Just the fact that they are here in large numbers. If that ISN'T bigotry, please tell me what the hell is? And perversely, Brown is nailed to the cross. Why? Partly because most people including the media want to see him fall on May 6. I do too, but not if it means I have to perform an idiotic logic somersault and defend a vile old racist woman. But the other reason is the good odl British habit of denying that there is a strong strain of bigotry in this country. Bigotry is as old as humanity. Why can't we just accept that it's there and deal with it honestly when it arises. Brown, should have dealt with her comment more intelligently when it arose. He rightly winced when he heard it but he should have been agile enough to challenge her in a kind yet assertive when she uttered the comment. instead he saw a minefield and pretended she never said it...until he got back in the car. In reality he did nothing seriously wrong. How many times have all of us been to a party, struck a conversation with a lunatic, calmly walked away and them pilloried them (righlty so) to our freinds after the fact. Who wants to pick an open fight with a bigot? No one does. It can only end in tears and that was Brown's call. Now nasty Britain wants to crucify him for something that happens a million times each day amongst ordinary people. The real disgrace in all this is the media's refusal to analyse this properly instead ot opting for the knee jerk Brown bashing.
"_AT_RJD8

... to be fair to her, Brown didn't really give her a chance. The woman was aware she was expressing something controversial and appeared unsure about mentioning it initially.

Probably like of a chance to express those specific concerns. Being un-used to debating with politicians, not having a pile of stats close to hand and lack of university education might all do it.

Not really, it was a gaffe and he apologised. Probably won't do him good in the polls up North though.

Really? That's pretty strong. Nonetheless """" who has been a lifelong Labour supporter and shares concerns that are probably representative of Labour's traditional core voters in those areas.
There is a relatively strong strain of bigotry in the UK, on the other hand we shouldn't confuse a lack of familiarity with acceptable terminology in current political discourse as bigotry - it should be possible to talk about immigration concerns without it descending to that level."
"Even worse than the off-camera remark itself was the smarmy way he went back and then came out with that used car dealer look all over his face blathering about how you sometimes say things... Just made the whole thing worse.
Once you've put your foot in it, you've put your foot in it."
What`s really annoying about the whole shambolic situation is that all the Tory supporters are laughing their arses off. Slimy sleazeball Cameron probably says a lot worse when he`s out of ear shot and away from the microphone, so don`t becoming over all holier than thou. Your shit stinks as much as the next person.
"like of a chance" should read "lack of a chance"
I detest Sky TV even more now, I didn`t think that was possible. What a bunch of fucking arseholes they are. I`ve no doubt if it had been tory boy Cameron, we would have heard nothing. Hope politicians learn from Brown`s mistake and refuse to ever wear a Sky microphone again and further even refuse to speak to their reporters, after this quite frankly unethical reporting.
she sounds like a bigot to me
"Lemontry
yes you are right i am laughing my arse off at the clown. The man is a natural disaster why defend it............
did you not see the left wing christian who allegedly got put in front of Cameron ? he later admitted he went there to av a go !!
did you see that on sky...... they did their best to make Cameron look stupid i thought.
Brown was in a safe area dealing with a little ol dear who was telling him she was on his side he he heeee sorry im laughing while i write ! and he still managed to f**k it up.
If he cant understand her what chance has he got in any big international meets ? or can he not recognise a bog standard question when he hears it, to much analysis paralysis maybe.
i havent seen any comments from Cameron yet can you give the links, ive heard Osborne but not Cameron.
the only arsehole Lemonentry is Brown.......... check m8 ! a priceless piece of TV, this is gonna play for years............. unbelievable !!"
"_AT_marimonster
Pray tell, what discussion of immigration is not bigoted according to you? Perhaps we should completely eliminate all immigration controls completely? What would be the effects of such a policy in your opinion? At what point do you believe that immigrants would stop coming to the UK?
-well, for starters, not making statements like ""all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from"" which are clearly words from the mouth of an ignorant bigoted idiot. It'd help if those concerned about immigration came up with some proper arguments about the topic and not just resort to vague, generalising & populist myths about immigrants. marimonster, workers within the EU (which includes many of 'them eastern Europeans"") are free to work and travel within its borders without restriction.
I'm not sure if Mrs.Duffy or indeed you realises this. your question about 'eliminating border controls completely' is of course a silly one that doesnt deserve a response it's so inane. It's actually very difficult to get into Britain both legally and illegally. Asking what my opinion is on something that will never happen (unrestricted immigration for all) is also patently ridiculous.
Your final question is again, nearly impossible to answer for a number of reasons, firstly because immigrants simply will never stop coming to Britain....mostly because they are required to either do jobs that Brits in general don't want to do or else jobs requiring specialised skills that are lacking in the UK. What I can say is that when the British or any advanced economy goes into recession, there will be a decline in immigration as jobs become scarce. Asylum seekers (as opposed to economic migrants) will never stop trying to come to Britain as long as war & instability are prevalent in their own countries. Britain takes a tiny proportion of the world's total asylum seeker population simply because it's so far away from most of the 'trouble spots' on the globe and is thus very hard/expensive to get to."
"Is the Gillian Duffy Britain?s Joe the Plumber?
Or maybe she could cut a record with Simon Cowell"
"I can't believe that people think this is acceptable, for me it was the way he said it and the tone he used, it was not lighthearted had a long day, bit fed up tone but he obviously thought the lady was just a pain in the backside and was angry he had been challenged. Gordon Brown is employed by the public like many other professions such as nurses, doctors, police force, fire service. Can you honestly say if you had heard a nurse, doctor or public service officer making a derogatory comment about you or your relative you would overlook it and say 'well we all do it' and 'we weren't meant to hear it so it is fine' or would you expect them to be reprimanded or even lose their job ! !
This is the man that people want to run our country - no thanks ! !"
"""You're all joking right?!
You think this is fine do you? Some fair and kindly put questions from an ordinary person wanting some answers and this is how he responds?
He talks about substance over style, and the minute someone questions him on it, he's calling them bigots. ""
WHAT QUESTION WAS SHE ASKING? Mr Clever
SUBSTITUTE ""INDIANS"" FOR ""EASTERN EUROPEANS"" Mr Clever
I have no idea why people appear to think that what she said could not be taken as bigoted. It indicated a prejudice against a particular racial group who she appeared to consider were unjustifiably taking away things from Britons - somethng that is conspicuously untrue about Eastern Europeans as they seem to be shoring up much of Britain's industrial and agricultural output because Britons haven't taken up those jobs or opportunities. Ask the employers who keep advertising in Eastern European countries for workers..
Still, I suppose manipulating irrationality to serve their masters' interests is what most of the newspapers are about - I am a lifelong labour voter and I am voting lib dem this time as I want a hung parliament, as I did last time - in case you want to know my spin"
Why do none of Dwight VanDryver's posts talk about Eastern Europeans?
Why do none of Dwight VanDryver's posts talk about Eastern Europeans?
"1. sounds like the press enjoyed getting some news worthy lead (how esle do you get folk who could vote but who would prefer to reply on a blog!)
2. sounds like the old girl was a biggot. though it might be Tony and Gordons fault given the society they've built around her over the years ;)
3. missed opportunity for Brown as he could've stuck to his guns if he thought someone was a biggot and apologised for the confusion. not the fact that he probably accurately called the old girls attitude. (he didnt have to apologies for his impression of someone complaining about a group of people because of their race! reckon he called it right.
it's a shame that voter turn out might be so rubbish from this election that it wont really matter who gets in because they've failed to connect to public in a way that provides people with a clear choice in candidate. you might win the election but if you're a rubbish leader and it's close whos guna help you out when it gets talk. go for broke boys. if its as close as they say for Gordon, why wouldnt you try somehting different after this ""gaff"". he's right to question his advisors. he missed a chance to capitalise. wood for the trees, me feel..."
"it seems she's becoming a bit of an internet super hero
http://memegenerator.net/Bigotted-Woman"
A scary article by a scary guy from Europe's scariest country.
"Oh that's rich. A Russian lecturing others about inferiority complexes.
Exactly how many more years will your country iterate through computer-generated art of ""better than American"" weapon systems or space systems or whatever, before you actually field one?
I eagerly look forward to Cosmonauts beating NASA's Constellation program back to the moon, and build a base before we do *snicker*."
"I agree. How about you start by respecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of your smaller weaker neighbours? Georgia for instance? Perhaps even Moldova? And get your soldiers out of their territories.
Myself, I always love it when someone claims to be attacked when their soldiers in someone else's country come under fire.

Oh I see. The Eastern Europeans have an inferiority complex towards the Russians? Of course, it is all so blindingly obvious now.

I agree - and the only lesson I see is the further away the Soviet, I mean Russian, Army is, the better.
But I do love the retro feel to this article. The bullying, clumsy as it is, the sneering, the insults. It takes me back to the good old days of the Cold War. Brezhnev could not have done that air of menacing peasant with limited education better. Which is odd because I suspect the author is anything but a peasant."
"There is no doubt that most of the former communist East European countries has badly behaved. Especially Poland, Georgia, Czech etc. They wanted a war between Russia and NATO.
Their cases was and still remains that of a beggar nation asking too much. Isn't it said, the Shoe never dictate to the foot how big it can grow!
It is good Obama recognised the burden they are rather than the little good impact they makes."
"So, to sum up.
""Some people from the countries we used to control in our dead empire do not trust us"".
Play sport with them and lose alot. Works for us."
"Good grief,
The tone of this is absolutely appalling. I know the Guardian wants, or at least claims to want to allow all kinds of voices to have a say in the comment pages, and it's a noble idea.
I have no problem with allowing Russia to put an article in here in principle, but why was this particular article allowed?

Are you serious with this? This kind of comment might play well with a jingoistic domestic audience, Dmitry Olegovich, but it doesn't wash here, thank you very much.

Yeah, the Chechens are very grateful for that, I'm sure.

Well, I have much sympathy with Russian hostility towards the US reneging on their treaty obligations, but when you write articles like this, then I'm not surprised that you are considered as a threat.

And these citizens of yours... How long had they been ""your citizens"" exactly? They were only ""your citizens"" since your country handed out passports to all and sundry in the territory precisely so you could make this lame excuse after provoking Georgia.
Dmitry Olegovich, I respectfully suggest that if you want to gain friends here, you do a little research on how to talk to us first. But then I suspect you know exactly how your comments would sound to us. What then, is your real purpose in writing this?"
"It wouldn't be a war. It would be an organized dismantling Russia.
A ""war"" insinuates equal competition and aims between two fighting parties. A NATO/Russian War would mostly be NATO trying to break Russia's back and Russia trying to make the cost of doing so high.
It doesn't have the power-projection abilities that make it a military equal. It couldn't put aircraft is NATO territory. NATO could achieve air dominance relatively quickly. It's Navy wouldn't be able to get past the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap. It's army would just be a moving target for numerically and technologicaly superior American aircraft.
But hey, if Russia want's to do it. It would only be one thousand years of Russian history that they'd be ending..."
NATO is an anachronism. Time to put it to bed.
"_AT_MeandYou

What are you on? They wanted a war between Nato and Russia? Exactly how likely is that? Honestly, that is just about the dumbest thing I have heard in a long time. What do you expect would happen to the likes of Poland in the event of a Nato-Russia war?
I am guessing from your use of grammar, and correct me if I am wrong, that you are probably Russian yourself? Try to examine why countries like the Czech Republic might have a bit of a grudge against Russia, it's not hard to find reasons."
I agree with the basic point of this article, that Europe, Russia and the US ought to be alies, not enemies. And that anti-Russian feelings in Eastern Europe are regretable. But they are also understandable, are they not? You can't imagine that half a century of repression can just be forgotten. A little humility, maybe an apology or two, wouldn't go amiss.
"_AT_yankeexv7

No it doesn't.
Stop boasting about America's military dominance. It's not pretty or dignified."
Remember in 2007 when you guys waged a cyber war against Estonia and tried to ruin their economy because they moved a statue? Good times.
"Oh I don't take any particular pleasure in doing it.
But the notion of a NATO/Russia war would somehow be a fair fight is perposterous. You realize that twenty five years ago, NATO was pretty sure it could beat the entire Soviet Union in a war with less than a dozen Russian ICBMs getting off the ground? And that was twenty years ago. Russia has gotten far weaker. The United States has seen its power only increase year over year.
There is no strategic parity between the United States and Russia. They are not equals. They are not peers. This notion that if push came to shove a US/Russian confrontantion would end in catastrophe for everyone is about forty years out of date. It would very much be the end of Russia as we know it, and not-a-world-changing-event for the US/NATO because of how one sided it would be.
The sooner people wake up to this strategic reality the better. That's why Russia gets so pissy about the Missile Defense System. Because they know that in a NATO/Russian War, the US wouldn't have to stop thousands of missiles - most wouldn't even get off the ground. It would have to stop less than twenty in all probability, something even a modest missile defense system could do.
But no. Let's all go back to pretending Russia is some kind of superpower just because it likes to pretend it is more than a geographically bigger Belarus."
"""our citizens in South Ossetia were brutally attacked.""
Psssst, Dimitry! South Ossetia is not a part of Russia (or at least it wasn't until your country raped Georgia.
""Russia is still seen by the west as a threat and a rival.""
With good reason, as the recent rape of Georgia showed.
""But there is a black sheep in every family, and some of the countries that have recently joined Nato and the EU are afraid that they cannot thrive on confrontation with Russia anymore. This was obviously the motivation behind Lithuania's attempt to obstruct the decision of the alliance to resume relations with Russia.""
What a bunch of horseshit. Sure pal, Lithuania wants a confrontation with you, and I'd just love to jump into the boxing ring with Mike Tyson. Lithuania, along with the rest of the recently liberated former Russian slaves, wants a guarantee against future Russian aggression and the preservation of their independence.
I think it was Russia that didn't learn the lesson of the cold war. We may have to kick their asses yet again..."
"Revive CIS; remember CIS?
Encourage sensible EasternEuropeans that better future lies in OtherEurope
-and revived-CIS.
No future in capital-ism without capital -no?
Nato to have overdue RigourMortis soon -dont give oxygen.
So off knees Dimitry, hands out of pocket
-let bigger balls grow -No?"
"We tend to believe our own propaganda in the West just that bit too much. The Russians have always been interested in keeping their border with the West as far easy as possible because historically the West keeps on invading it. WW2 was just the last in a long line of physical invasions -- and its worth remembering that not all countries in Eastern Europe were occupied by the Germans, some were its allies. Post Soviet Union we've seen a rather ungainly rush to expand both the EU and NATO as a way of expanding the West into the East. Georgia is the current highwater mark -- we armed a small country and incited it to let loose on the Russians (and were surprised what happened).
I think we can do better.
I also don't believe that the US's military superiority is such that we could have taken on the Russians as well. We're well overstreched by wars with non-countries (Iraq, Afghanistan). We don't need any more confrontation. (Anyway, I doubt the Chinese would finance it)(think about it)"
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"yankeevz7-
Perhaps you can come back and let us know when you manage to defeat the Taliban (LOL)"
"Yankeexv7
I'm not sure who you heard on here saying that Russia was militarily equivalent to the USA. You seem to be continually arguing a case that nobody (at least on this thread) has so far disputed. And I'm afraid comments like

still sound like you are bragging. Not to mention very much mistaken. It would be a colossal tragedy for both sides, regardless of presumed dominance.
This thread started out as Dmitry Olegovich making unpleasant and unwarranted threats against Eastern Europe, a man who, as the Russian Ambassador to Nato, should know better, and now you are making unpleasant and unwarranted threats back towards Russia. Where's the love?"
"JohnMcCain-

Are chickens yella [sic] where you come from?"
Old Europe
"_AT_martinusher
You are absolutely right when you say that we in the West take our propaganda too seriously, but are you seriously suggesting that WWII was an invasion of Russia by 'The West' ? That's a view I've never heard before. It's also conveniently forgetting how comfortable Stalin was to agree to a carve up of Poland with Hitler. Not to mention how the Finns might feel about the whole affair, or how the Ukrainians might feel about the collective punishment visited on them.
Yes, the West has many historical and indeed current crimes to answer for, but try to keep in perspective, and don't paint the Russians as innocent victims in all cases.
As for JoeMcCann
Was your comment written in irony? I doubt it, but I live in hope."
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"Well Russia bargains a lot on this illusion of strategic parity. Of course the US know's its a joke. And Russia knows it a joke. But then you have the Russian NATO representitive here making these ridiculous pronouncements just because Russia was a superpower twenty years ago, and pretty much living off that reputation.
Maybe if people start reminding Russia what it is a little bit more often, then putting up with its tantrums, this incredibly insulting post wouldn't have been made.
You know when Russia sent a few ships to Venezuela, what the unofficial US Navy response was? They were surprised that Russia had ships modern enough to make the trans-Pacific trip. Of course it was mostly in jest, but it was a backhanded way of saying that Russia's Venezuelan field trip could have had five cruisers or five motor boats, it really didn't make a strategic difference.
I'm really not interested in my country, the United States, having anything better than a passive-aggressive relationship with Russia until Russia wakes up and realizes that this is the 21st century, it lost the Cold War, badly, over twenty years ago. And its aging nuclear arsenal is practically worthless in this brave new world.
They aren't friends worth having, when you come down to it. Not as they are at the moment anyway."
"Dimitri, I have no doubt that you read the replies. You should really acknowledge by know that rational argument and knowledge of history is not a necessary requirement for posting on CIF.
At least 18 of the posters prior to my posting show complete ignorance of the historical origins of the so cold ""Cold War"" and are ignorant of who were actually allies of the Third Reich.
Always remember Dimitri that the ""cold War"" was never about ideology or freedom or even democracy, it was about total access to raw materials and natural resources.
As early as the 1960''s I was offering the opinion that even should the Soviet regime collapse or morph into a social democratic state it would still be the ""bete noir"" of the west until such time as it was prepared to totally capitulate to all western demands.
Putin at least has recognised this and has drawn a line in the sand. Western diplomatic agreement have never been woth the paper they were written on.
The Anglo-Saxon approach has to always been to claim exceptionalism, much as we see the U.K claim an exception to just about every facet of the European Union, the U.K of spring the U.S.A carries on in the same manner as its erstwhile parent country.
It signs agreements but generally refuse or declines to ratify them thus leaving itself to have a legal out, where it does actually ratify it has no compunction about abrogating treaties when to do so in perceived to be in the national interest.
The Russian Federation should arm itself to the teeth and also it current generation of high tech weapons systems tom any prospective buyer.
Russia cannot go it alone it needs allies, the crazier they are the better it will be for you to seel to them. Nothing like have well armed madmen on the loose to bring a bit of cooperation between those who consier themselves sane.
Better still the Russian Federation should be a ""doosday machine"", and then issue an announce ment that if any more enroachment is made agaisnt the Federation then it will be activated.
Better to all Russians to die on their feet than live on their knees."
"_AT_yankeexv7

You seem to lack information. American technology appears to be superior often because when anything better comes along, it is either quietly suppressed, or manufactured in the US as required by law. The Avro Arrow, the Bae TSR2, the Hawker Harrier, are cases in point. There have been others, especially in the field of missile technology."
"Dimitri, I have no doubt that you read the replies. You should really acknowledge by know that rational argument and knowledge of history is not a necessary requirement for posting on CIF.
At least 18 of the posters prior to my posting show complete ignorance of the historical origins of the so cold ""Cold War"" and are ignorant of who were actually allies of the Third Reich.
Always remember Dimitri that the ""cold War"" was never about ideology or freedom or even democracy, it was about total access to raw materials and natural resources.
As early as the 1960''s I was offering the opinion that even should the Soviet regime collapse or morph into a social democratic state it would still be the ""bete noir"" of the west until such time as it was prepared to totally capitulate to all western demands.
Putin at least has recognised this and has drawn a line in the sand. Western diplomatic agreements have never been worth the paper they were written on.
The Anglo-Saxon approach has to always been to claim exceptionalism, much as we see the U.K claim an exception to just about every facet of the European Union, the U.K offspring: the U.S.A carries on in the same manner as its erstwhile parent country.
It signs agreements but generally refuse or declines to ratify them thus leaving itself to have a legal out, where it does actually ratify it has no compunction about abrogating treaties when to do so in perceived to be in the national interest.
The Russian Federation should arm itself to the teeth and also sell its current generation of high tech weapons systems to any prospective buyer.
Russia cannot go it alone it needs allies,the crazier they are the better it will be for you to sell to them. Nothing like have well armed madmen on the loose to bring a bit of cooperation between those who consider themselves sane.
Better still the Russian Federation should build a ""doomsday machine"", and then issue an announcement that if any more enroachment is made agaisnt the Federation then it will be activated.
Better for all Russians to die on their feet than live on their knees. Remember Stalingrad."
"yankeexv7
OK, I see you are intent on standing on your soapbox to proclaim to a disinterested world that America's weaponry is better than Russia's.
Fine, if that's what makes you happy, then carry on.
_AT_justthefactsman

Umm, I hate to point out the easily verifiable, but there weren't 18 posters before you, regardless of whether they mentioned the cold war or not.
That aside, would you care to enlighten us poor ignorant fools of who Germany's allies truly were, as you seem to have an important fact you want to get off your chest?

Regarding freedom and democracy, I might concede your claim, but I'm pretty sure that ideology was a pretty big part of it.

You may well have been, but you don't tell us what your credentials are?
Were you drunk when you wrote that? I only ask because most of it doesn't make much sense."
"There is something a person can wonder which is with Global Warming accepted by the IPPC as real if a Green Communism might be possible .
The consensus is the current economic system does harm for the environment and people say the religious types they battle have no respect for science.
So I was wondering if there are not strange standrards in place if the desire is not there to change the current economic system."
"The Avro Arrow was made obsolete by the introduction of ICBMs.
The TSR2 was inferior in many ways to the F-111, which was already in full rate production when the TSR2 was canceled.
The Hawker Harrier is from the 1920s...
This is hardly ""often"".
Because from where I'm standing, I'm looking at the Eurofighter, and I see a dinosaur compared to the F-22A and F-35.... some advanced technology."
"yankeexv7-

Napoleon tried, Hitler tried and if there were any chance of success, NATO would have tried.
PS Have you prevailed in Afghanistan yet?"
"""Russia is still seen by the west as a threat and a rival.""
Mmm... have you thought of cutting their gas supplies off in the middle of winter to try to change their minds?"
"I would like to see good relations between the West and Russia. Who wouldn't?
Given the author talks about shrinks, maybe he can try an exercise where he puts himself in the shoes of others, particularly the Eastern European countries.
They spent 50 years under the control of Moscow. Then they see Russia's muscle flexing - in South Ossetia (which was a lot more than muscle flexing) and the Ukraine gas crisis with Russia - regardless of who was right surely they would be nervous?
And to be fair to some of the Eastern European countries, more and more of them appear to be wary of hosting part of the missile defence shield (I am not up to date on where each country sits), which Russia finds such a threat."
"Dmitry,
this Anglo-Saxon economic crisis is a great time and opportunity for a new Russian empire building and could be a welcome end of everything pro-American in both continental Europe and Asia. You should definitely start from an urgent re-integration of the Ukraine and Belarus into Russian state.. then deal with the small yapping Eastern European pro-American dogs like Balts and Pols by achieving their complete demilitarisation/finlandisation... in the South-East you should probably take charge of Afghanistan and Pakistan (by allying with India and Iran perhaps) and create friendly socialist states out of them. Just ignore NATO and Anglo-Saxons as much as possible, they are going to get use to new Russia's imperatives in Eurasia and wont be able to do a thing about it soon enough :-)"
"_AT_MAM
For once, we are in complete agreement.
Dmitry, seriously, have you ANY idea how bad your article makes Russia look?
Dmitry, seriously, have you ANY idea what an idiot your article makes you look?
""Black sheep in every family"" - like something from a high-school bully's playground note threatening a beating after school."
"spectreovereurope

Afghanistan? That's different, they are up against a first class and well equipped fighting force there ... The Palin McCain Militia or whatever sponsorship name the Taleban go under these days ... Nah! compared to Afghanistan, the Russians will be a pushover .. just ask the ... oh .. they lost too."
"It is, in principle, I think you are right, but I also think it's more than inferiority complexes that drive what appears to be irrational behaviour. Some Eastern European countries can't decide if they are with the USA or with the EU. Some Polish politician once described it as Poland's need to want a mommy and a daddy. Yes, it's desperate isn't it. The UK knows all about this syndrome, it has suffered from it for many decades.

Colloquially stated, this is little more than a compulsive need to be ""sucking up to the yanks"", little right-wingers looking for the great big right-wing daddy that they never had."
"Freddybobs:

Quite. But even read in that light, it's pathetically lacking in sophistication and nuance. For the sake of Russia's future, I hope their leaders are better at running the place than they are at bluster."
""" The new philosophy of partnership, defined by President Medvedev as a concept of "" united Euroatlantic space from Vancouver to Vladivostok, "" has attracted the support of many western leaders. ""
O' yes bring it on ! a 'Nordic' partnership with all the counties of the arctic ; this can only be for the good."
"_AT_ freddybobs
""And these citizens of yours... How long had they been ""your citizens"" exactly? They were only ""your citizens"" since your country handed out passports to all and sundry in the territory precisely so you could make this lame excuse after provoking Georgia""
As I understand, you do not consider the Russian soldiers for ""Russian citizens"".
Unfortunate Saakashvili... He became a victim of provocation. :) :) It is interesting to learn, whether you can live 8 years without passport and other documents? If Osetian peoples has accepted the Russian citizenship it is their free choice."
Wow, what an extraordinary Pravda-esque effort. Can you not do better than this? "Our citizens in South Ossetia" indeed.
"It is time we stopped having 'Russia' and the 'West'. We should build a Common European House.
The reason we have not is because the USA feels left out by the concept, so has bolstered NATO to stop it happening - the cold peace.
It is time the USA stopped controlling European affairs in its own interests.
Sovereignty needs to be brought back from across the Atlantic after nearly a century."
"Wow, what an amazing thread! We seem to have had everyone from Alexander the Meerkat to Sylvester Stallone lobbing insults.
Eyes on the ball needed people, the last thing the world needs is a new era of Soviet bluster or American flatulence.
Oh beloved Grauniad - why did you publish this ludicrous piece of posturing?"
"Martin Usher
In September 1939 Nazi Germany and Russia JOINTLY invaded Poland as allies under the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. After Hitler stabbed him in the back, Stalin insisted he get to keep the one third of Poland he conquered during his alliance with the Nazis. Churchill and Roosevelt agreed. So Poles were expelled from Lvov (now Lviv) and eastern Poland, to be moved into the homes of expelled Germans in Breslau (now Wroclaw). Around 12 million people were forcefully resettled.
Historically, Poland has been invaded, partitioned and occupied by Both Tzarist and Bolshevik Russia almost continuously since the late 18th century; had its citizens massacred at Katyn; had other citizens sent to labour camps in Kazakhstan, and generally had governments and political systems forced upon it by Russia. Historically, Russia has behaved as badly towards Poland as England has towards Ireland. It is time Russia accepted this, and tried to mend fences in eastern Europe. Unfortunately the old bullying imperial mentality is very much in evidence.
MartynInEurope
Many Eastern European countries fear that western countries will do a deal with Russia against their interests and over their heads. This is because, in the past, western countries did deals with Russia against their interests and over their heads. Recently, for instance, the Russian defence minister threatened a nuclear first strike against Poland. The EU's response was to try and keep Polish EU officials away from microphones. Many Poles felt the EU was treating Russia's threat to annihilate Poland with far less seriousness than, say, a Russian threat to annihilate France. This is because the EU was treating Russia's threat to annihilate Poland with far less seriousness than, say, a Russian threat to annihilate France.
Please cut out the child psychology. Poland has a well-founded fear of Russian bullying and intimidation. Don't you agree?"
"Mother Russia keeps calling us back but she does precious little to endear herself to us. Just look at the most recent history: Georgia, Ukraine, shady Russian internal affairs, the continuously high tension between Russia and the EU and the US (no Cold Peace, right), the gas incident, etc. etc.... do you think all this makes us trust you more? Have you learned nothing from history?
Eastern European countries have a long, long history of Russian oppression and intimidation. Yes, history is history and the Cold War and the Soviet Union may be over, but we still have a reason to be wary of Russia, a country that seems incapable of changing its ways. (Which is not to say that the EU and the NATO are all smiles and sunshine, of course.)"
It is difficult to ignore Russian aggression. Russia has surrounded the United States with military bases and inducted America's neighbours, Canada and Mexico, into the Warsaw pact. Most ominously, Russia has placed a "defensive" missile shield in Alberta and Moose Factory, Ontario that is ostensibly to protect Russia from nuclear missals launched from the rogue state of Costa Rica but is clearly aimed at the United States.
"lefktra:

You mean the Vatican, surely?"
Do Russians ever wonder why every single country they border fears and distrusts them? There might be important lessons in that one, Dima. Loved the bit about inferiority complexes, by the way - the best example of projection I have ever, ever seen in my entire life. Congrats...
"Getting emotional does not minimize ignorance of the chessgame that is being played, hence to say the EU and the NATO are not all smiles and sunshine is putting it way too mildly.

- From the study by by Martin Hantke
http://www.imi-online.de/download/IMI-Studie2008-10englisch.pdf"
Brave Dmitry, brave. But your talking to the OLD Cold War Warriors here and asking them to set aside their deep suspicions is like asking Bankers for their bonuses to be returned.
"Dmitriy Rogozin is well-known in Russia as a fascist ideologue. By 'fascist' I mean precisely a racist ultra-nationalist. He was the leader of the 'Rodina (Motherland)' political party which was itself banned from taking part in elections by a Russian court (in 2005) for inciting race hatred in a film, made by Rogozin himself, which referred to dark-skinned migrants as 'garbage' who need to be cleared away. Such incitements are particularly significant in a country where there are racist murders every week (one of the highest rates in the world).
Rogozin's belief in ultra-nationalist ideology may go some way towards explaining the chauvinistic tone of this article.
He was appointed by the Kremlin as Russia's ambassador to NATO as a way of sticking two fingers up at the West, a childish gesture to say the least."
I really fail to see why Russia wants to cooperate with the lying, thieving, murderous west in general and NATO (the world's biggest terrorist organisation) in particular. Sure, some trade is fine. Other than that - is it morally degrading: 1m+ slaughtered Iraqis, genocide against Serbs, support of fascist Washington stooge Saakashvili in his war against S Ossetia (the shelling of the sleeping city), etc. In Russia, the reputation of the west and its captive lying discredited media is sub-zero. Especially after the disgraceful support of the west given to Saakashvili (all the hugging and kissing and f***-ing I am sure) and to Albanian human-body-parts-trading terrorists who are now ruling Kosovo with the blessing of the disgraced EU. The west excels at double no triple standards but the rest of world sees it and despises these mafia-style practices. Thankfully, western serpentarium is getting less and less important, in all respects. Their hissing and stinging is getting more and more pathetic.
"It's still a pity that the eastern Europeans continue to use Nato as a personal shrink and try to sort out their inferiority complexes through the medium of international organisations.
I have not seen yet a Czech or a Estonian who would not feel supperior to Russians. What inferiority complexes?"
"_AT_ FrederickChichester
""A scary article by a scary guy from Europe's scariest country.""
Five points! It is impossible to speak iwith such British idiots. I was in Great Britain last year. Brits looks as a normal guys but that is created in their washing brains... If you wish to live with such concepts as ""KGB/Russians bears/Stalin/poor Poland and Baltika/imperial ambitions"" and other nonsense that continue to live on yours fu.. island. I do not think that Russia so interested in cooperation with the British snobs."
"_AT_ naine
I have not seen yet a Czech or a Estonian who would not feel supperior to Russians. What inferiority complexes?
How times you saw (and speak) with Czechs and Estonians? Is you psychologist?"
"many of the comments here seem to illustrate exactly that cold war mentally that the article seeks to draw a line under. comments such as this:
freddybobs

provoking georgia? to some, russia will always be the bad guy. georgia began shelling the shit out of tiny, breakway civilian populace. whatever the politics, if that's ok, then it suddenly puts a different spin of bloody sunday, not to mention any other violent supression of civilians in a contested region.
sometimes you have to break away from the context that so distorts how things are viewed. when you remove the blinkers, what you saw in south osettia was a heavilly armed military force bombing and killing civilians. russia had to act."
"'A binding code of conduct for states'
Hmm, where have I heard that before?
This is from the 'doctrine' of one of Mr Rogozin's pet projects a couple of years ago:

And so on.
It's OK Dmitry, Europe won't be adopting any treaties proposed by a Russia which chooses you as its representative. So you can keep on spreading your imperialist 'organic fertiliser' around your own country to your heart's content.
Links:
http://www.velikoross.ru/doktrina/ (Russian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katechon"
"_AT_Schmegel
Thanks for precisions - very interesting."
"redflag
I am not anti-Russian. Russia is not always the bad guy. If you have read other threads, I have also been called anti American and anti Semitic.
Truth is, I am anti-aggression, and blind supporters of any regime, whatever the regime, find it easier to label any critic as anti-xxxx and then subsequently dismiss them than to actually engage in the points raised.
I suspect you are in this category.
Russia provoked Georgia. If you don't like it, then sorry, but it's true. Russia itself felt put out because of unwarranted Western meddling in Kosovo and decided to retaliate by bloodying Georgia's nose. Hence handing out citizenship to South Ossetians. Hence the build up of Russian troops in violation of their commitments in the first half of 2008, when there was no conflict. Hence the cross border provocations of Georgia immediately prior to Georgian troops invading. Hence Russia's collective punishment of innocent Georgian civilians in the aftermath.
Both Georgia and Kosovo are pawns in the eyes of the US and Russia. USA has provoked many conflicts, not to mention launching outright illegal wars. I presume you don't mind me mentioning that? Why do you object to me mentioning Russia's indiscretions?"
"redflag
Hang on - you said:
exactly that cold war mentally that the article seeks to draw a line under
Well, firstly I assume by 'mentally' you actually meant 'mentality'
You think that this article is trying to be reconciliatory? Really? Really and truly honestly really? Don't make me laugh."
haven't got time so will comment on just this product of a delirious imagination: Russia provoked Saaka. Sure, like Jews provoked Hitler. I wish public display of stupidity and ignorance were outlawed.
"If the man provokes you, it does not mean that you should take a pistol and kill him. If you have made it - YOU BECAME MURDERER. And the law should condemn you, instead of support.
If Georgians has consider that it was provocation they should get it in the international organisations and investigated it. If nobody has told officially the officially the claims this time, there should not be claims now.
You live under laws of Stone Age and Wild West, instead of the civilised world laws."
"lenaa
If you're so pressed for time, then in future, save yourself the ten seconds it takes to write asinine comments like that."
My previous post was addressed to freddybobs
"To Lenaa
I am Russian and not brainwashed like western people. But use logics and think strategically - Russia really provoked Georgia. But nobody mentions here that Russia did so after US provoked Russia by arming Georgia under the pretext of ""democracy""."
"stranger2
While I'm not saying that Georgia's response was the cleverest, would you care to point out one instance that a complaint against any of the five veto-wielding members of the UN Security Council has ever proven worthwhile?
Out of curiousity, where are you from, stranger2? I've had a look at your comment history and you seem to lurk on here waiting for any thread concerning Russia in some fashion. Why are you so concerned with each and every article in a UK newspaper about Russia? Are you paid for this, or just a concerned citizen?"
"_AT_ freddybobs
Sir, do you casual not cowboy from Texas?"
I live in the Moscow, Russian capital. Is it so important for you? If to me paid for my comments, I would not be against. Russia is my native land, and I do not like this image what exists at my country in the Western world. All other articles are not interesting to me as I'm not interested internal life in other countries and I do not wish to seem the intellectual (in difference from the numerous British "experts on Russia", which write many Russophobic comments, but know about a life in my country only due to BBC reportings).
"justuser
Quite true - USA were arming Georgia, and it's perfectly understandable both what the USA's motivation is and why Russia doesn't like it.
However, while the USA were deplorably and immorally breaking their assurances to Russia that they were not interested in extending US/Nato influence to the East, their actions were not illegal. Russia's response should have been diplomatic and directed towards the USA, not towards Georgia. Simple proximity does not give Russia an automatic right to dictate with whom their neighbours are allowed to be friends.
The same logic has been used by the USA to commit horrendous atrocities in Latin America through the years arguing Soviet provocation, and it's wrong, whoever does it."
Do you will see now Kremlin agent in each Russian commentator? Or only in such Russian, who not agree with Western politicans?
"stranger2
Sorry to disappoint you, but I like Russian culture. I have been to Russia several times and to other ex-soviet republics (Moldova and Latvia). We are not all brainwashed by Russian media.
However, there is an unfortunate side-effect to your paranoia about western media coverage towards Russia - If you simply hang around and read comments left on threads about Russian behaviour towards it's neighbours, then you will see lots of negative Russian commentary. If however, you try to balance it by looking at stories about other countries, including my own, the UK, and the response to them from readers, then you will see that there is not some giant anti-Russian conspiracy amongst the public here.
I have complained many times about prejudices in the BBC, Guardian and many other media sources here, but the reason I wonder why you are paid, is because if I were you and a Russian citizen living in Russia, I would be much more concerned with the outrageous cartoon-like media bias that is fed to you there.
I'm really not sure what you mean by

so I'm afraid I cannot respond to that particular remark."
"Sorry - I wrote

I actually meant to write British, not Russian"
"re freddybobs

on what basis? i never refered to your comments as 'anti' anything and think my comment did engage in the points raised. as far as anti agression goes, you wrote that georgia acted against russian provocation, implictly providing a justifacation to their actions. my point was, strip away the politics that are so ingrained into all our cultures, and what you saw was a heavilly armed military force bombing and killing civilians. so stop using the georgia affair as an excuse to keep russia in the cold.
i'm not sure then why you assume me to be in a particluar camp? if it's my blog name, i wish to point out that relates to the football team i support!"
"To freddybobs
Totally agree with you but nobody in the world considered US as a potential aggressor to the rest of the world to such an extent as Russia is considered now. Most of people in Russia (at least in Moscow because Moscow mentality is quite different from the one of other Russia) have a correct picture of what is really happening in the world even though Russian state-controlled media tries to brainwash us too. But western stereotypes about Russia are sort of exaggerated (from cold winter even though it's the same like in some northern parts of US to bellicosity). Whatever US does it is considered as a democracy protection, in case of Russia - it is all aggression. Even Russia's being against missiles deployment in the western Europe is considered by most westerners as just another step of Kremlin to weaken Eastern Europe in order to then attack them.:-))) To my opinion it's all related to Putin because he has KGB mentality. Just imagine how would now Russians perceive US had McCain won elections."
"Even Russia's being against missiles deployment in the western Europe" - sorry, I meant eastern europe
Agreed. In the long run there's nothing to be gained by a confrontational approach. However, before we can get to this idealized state, Russia needs to stop behaving like Europe's gangster and internalize the rule of law into its social fabric.
"redflag
You highlighted my comments and linked them quite explicitly to the allegation that:

How can you claim that you are not accusing me of being anti-Russian?
I am not defending Georgian actions, and the fact that you see it that way, says more about your stance than mine. I didn't say Georgia was justified in their response, in fact, if you read an earlier post of mine, you'll see that I explicitly distanced myself from justifying Georgian action. However, you chose to see my criticism of Russia as an endorsement of Georgia.
That is exactly the same mindset as George Bush's famous ""with us or against us"" and allows for no nuance in any situation.

I know which side you're talking about, but you could really apply it to either side, couldn't you? Explain to me how Georgia's response to Russian aggression should let the initial Russian aggression off the hook?
Your one-sided defence of Russia consisting of criticism of Georgia in place of addressing Russian behaviour is why I assume you to be in a particular camp, and not your blog name."
"justuser
I don't know how much you engage with Western media, and you make a fair point about Western stereotypes which are rampant about Russia. but I cannot agree with your comment that:

It really isn't - of course there are some people who blindly support the USA in all it's actions, but I think it's fair to say that the majority of people in this country deplore US and UK behaviour towards Iraq, with an increasing number angry about Afghanistan. Not to say there is nobody, but I have yet to meet a single individual in the UK who thinks US behaviour towards Cuba is justified in any way. Many, including myself are angry about US behaviour towards Venezuela and about the encroaching Eastward movement of NATO, in contravention of all promises made by previous US administrations.
Many in the West perceive the US as the greater aggressor, based on the evidence of expansionism through both war and internal meddling (orange revolution, etc). Yes, even though living in the UK means Russian nukes are aimed at me and not US ones, I believe the USA is the greater threat in the world, and have said as much on many occasions. But that is not to excuse Russia as an aggressor, which it plainly is and has been often in the past. Eastern Europeans do not need overly long memories to recall Soviet aggression. Georgian's certainly don't, and this article by Dmitry Olegovich is a very poorly disguised threat against dissent from Russia's neighbours.
To my opinion it's all related to Putin because he has KGB mentality. Just imagine how would now Russians perceive US had McCain won elections."
"Sorry - posted too early -

was meant to be in quotes.
Yes, Putin has played well in Russian domestic politics, and not so well in the West as he is not playing the supplicant role that Yeltsin did. I understand both why Russians give, or at least gave, such uncompromising support to him, and hwy the West did not trust him. As for McCain - yes, people would have been very fearful had he won, but the figurehead in US politics is not that material in the countries behaviour, so much as the language. I have yet to see real signs of the USA losing it's imperial ambitions under Obama."
"To prz144
That's right. As a Russian living in Moscow I admit that Russia is not civilized compared to US, UK and other classical EU countries (France, Germany, Italy and so on). Most of people here lack culture in terms of, say, treating disabled people (total absence of facilities for them) and attitude to each other, public behavior. It could take several decades for the general Russian mentality to convert into a civilized mentality. Even though there is a propaganda thru mass media about the fight against corruption here it's all actually just words to brainwash people. Corruption now in the Russian economy is part of supporting Russian economy. Most of salaries here are low (unlike Moscow). If all bribery is obliterated here then what would be the purchasing power parity in Russia?
But this is not the reason to consider Russia as a threat to the rest of the world. Even though the man who pulls the strings has KGB mentality he is very smart and will never behave like a dumb ass. Besides, Medvedev is not that puppet as it seems in the west. Most of analysts (not on TV of course ))) but in internet) say that Putin and Medvedev are already having some arguments and the former will soon be given a sack."
"re freddybobs

you wrote the following:

by suggesting that russia provoked georgia into bombing civilian buildings, you are providing a justification for what happended. you are saying that one thing led to another. i would suggest that the bombing of civilians is never justified. which leads me onto this:

no, i saw it as an unfair criticism of russia, and nothing more. that was point: russia is always seen as the bad guy, even in this example when it was clearly in the right.

my comment related to the georgia incident because other bloggers had used that as a means to beating russia. again, this illustrated my point that clearly many people are still culturally programmed to automatically think russia is the big evil. it probably never even occured to many that georgia may have been in the wrong.
actions need to be judged on individual merits. what russia is doing in chechyna for example is horrendous and worthy of a war crimes trial in the hague. what it did in georgia was a reasonal response. to me, decrying the georgia incident as russia's fault is systematic of a culture that always sees it as the aggressor. in truth, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
 in place of addressing Russian behaviour is why I assume
as mentioned above, it's not a one sides defence. i'm simply illustrating that to many, russia is always seen as the bad guy, even where it is not. then you go on to infer that i have a george bush like mentality?! if you knew me you'd know how funny/ offensive that is. but then you assume too much based on too little. you assume one blogger is russian because of the grammar they use!"
"It was interesting to note the comments regarding me by ""yankeexv7"".
The suggestion that I might have been drunk when I wrote my post. It was also very interesting to see that he is very careless with his facts. I stated that there were at least 18 post prior to mine which he contradicted and said there were less, when in fact there were twenty four.
In the light of his error observations of the number of posts it would be unwise to give any crediblity to anything that he writes."
"_AT_ justuser
Have you considered that the whole point of creating an outside boogyman is to distract you from those internal difficulties?
Happens everywhere, it seems."
"redflag
Sorry, this debate is becoming a little cartoonish.

Yes, one thing did indeed lead to another. Russia put extra troops into South Ossetia when it was peaceful, they handed out citizenship to the populace and encouraged cross-border provocation of Georgia. This led to Georgia attacking. Doesn't mean Georgia was right, it's an explanation of illegal activities that were undertaken by Russian government prior to Georgia's response
If you confuse cause/effect with justification and cannot see a difference, then I fail to see any point in furthering this debate.
You state that Russia's response to Georgia was reasonable. I couldn't disagree more, but my charge was levelled at Russia's provocation, not it's response. Do you seriously disagree that Russia's actions PRIOR to the conflict were deeply provocative?

Some are, but I am not, and there was NOTHING in my postings to suggest otherwise, so why do you level this allegation?
You belie your subscription to this ""all or nothing"", ""for us or against us"" mentality even in your response to the allegation itself. You rail against me accusing you of having the same mentality as George Bush. No I didn't, I have no idea of your political leanings or any other aspect of your character.
Please read my quote again:

You'll see I quite accurately levelled one of his quotes at you, not the man and his actions in any broader sense whatsoever. It's a dangerous lack of nuance, whatever your political affiliations to view the world in black and white."
"The Russian minister dude is right.
Being from Poland myself I can tell you all (in strictest confidence, of course) that for a price of shaving the eastbound missile trajectory by 5 minutes, you got yourselves a fine gaggle of assorted monkeys tugging at the alliance.
It might have been the Russian intelligence' finest ploy : stack it with DP's, ex-Waffen SS combatants from the Baltics and some balkan floatsam, have the likes of Sikoradek (Polish FM Radek Sikorski; ""siki"" means ""piss"") vieing for NATO leadership; and voila : it becomes the butt of Taliban jokes at the cave watercooler.
Western Europeans ca 1939 did not want to die for Danzig; now it could just be these two estonian fighter planes (on loan from Poland, no less) on their scenic Petersburg drive-by that'll take you there...."
"justthefactsman
I don't wish to defend yankeexv7 in any way, as I disagree with his postings (a fact conveniently ignored by redflag when he accuses me of being anti-russian) but it was me that made the comments that you take exception to.
And I stand by my comment.
You stated that at least 18 previous posters displayed an ignorance of the cold war.
There were NOT 18 posters prior to you. There may have been 24 posts, I didn't count, but posts and posters are different. If you want, go back and count the different names. It would be somewhat irrational to count the individual posts where multiple posts exist by the same author and claim each as a separate instance of an ignorant poster. I also fail to count anywhere near 18 which alluded to the cold war in any sense.
While you're here, could you also enlighten me as to which particular posts were ignorant of the cold war and why?"
"The majority of postings here in response to this reasonable article just give me the creeps.
Vox populi, vox dei? Which ""popili"" though? The very one with a superiority complex so impressed upon, that it almost looks genetic: the Anglo-Saxons.
But talking of stereotypes, Mr.Rogozin also needs to take a note:

Mr.Rogozin, your job seemingly requires that you deal a lot if not exclusively with negative attitudes against Russia. But declaring that these ""prevail"" in all of Eastern Europe is a trap you should not have fallen into.
Poland is a separate case, and has been discussed by other poster(s) above. But apart from that, even the Baltics are not unified in terms of popular opinion or even the elites installed throuh ""coloured"" action - Latvia is not the same as Estonia, which has been handled more rigorously by the West due to the presence of a huge ethnical Russian diaspora.
Going further, the Czechs as a people are vehimently opposed to Uncle Sam's hostile act of missile defense; even the stooge government is now backtracking. Slovak public opinion is predominantly pro-Russian, has always been. It took a real covert effort to get rid of Frico's government that served popular mood for over a decade. In Hungary, Gyurczany is from the socialists and while in power concluded energy deals lucrative for Russia; in general, Hungarians have experienced predatory economics from the West a lot, and I am sure that this and socialist nostalgia has moderated anti-Russian sentiment. Romania was an economic basket case before 1989, and still is; not much hope there except they detest Russian imperialism in general, but don't want to unite with their ""inferior"" Moldovan cousins anyway.
Going further south is Bulgaria, and the rest of the Balkans. To paint these nations with the same brush as the Poles is weak, to say the least. Bulgaria suffered the most from the disintegrating of economic ties that came from Russia in the 90s, but even the new huge nuclear plant project of Belene, to replace Kozloduy predatorily shut down from Brussels, is ordered from Russia and on Russian financing. Serbia and Montenegro may be unhappy about Russia's falure to protect them against NATO aggression, but that is all. Greece buys Russian military gear, in spite of being in NATO - they don't want to face betrayal if it came to conflict with Turkey.
Have you also fallen for propaganda cliches, Mr.Rogozin?"
"this is condradictory in the extreme. firstly, that's hardly a bush quote, but rather an expression, so why mention him at all other than to discredit what i wrote. to think that likening someone's point of view to that of g. bush, or anyone else, can be detached from likening two mindsets is pretty dishonest; that's preceisely why you used that quote.

i would say that the provocation lay at georgia and the us's door. as mentioned above, to criticise russia for certain things like chechyna is fine, to take the positon that russia is always wrong is an ideological stance, not a rational one.
the whole point of everything i have written is to judge each event on its merits, and not make blanket assertions about any one country based on unbending cultural prejudices, in this case russia. you couldn't have misinterpreted me more when you wrote that i have a black and white view of the world.

true then. you assume - based seemingly on total misinterpretation - that not only you are right, but that those that disagree with you are stupid. so debate over."
"redflag
I forgot to address your last point:

Yes, in one of my previous postings, I guessed a poster was Russian. There was no response, so I guess we'll never know, but you know what I did - I used the evidence available to me to formulate a hypothesis, and I presented as exactly that - a guess. I didn't spin my assumption into fact as you seem to do by spinning lack of knowledge of Russian action into cold hard innocence
Furthermore, there was no negativity implied implicitly or explicitly by my guess.
This was presumably (there I go again, making assumptions) intended as a cheap shot by you, but I'm afraid it doesn't wash."
"Whenever a thread or article appears on the internet with an 'Us versus Them' paradygim between nations you can be sure of one thing: one side will accuse the other of being brain-washed. The accusation is often made mutually and both sides nearly always have some justification.
However, one side nearly always has significantly *more* justification than the other. So which sounds the more brain-washed:
A society governed by the Rule of Law, Classicaly Democratic and Constitutionally Representative, with a Free-Media, Protected Rights of Expression and Association, an Open-Marketplace of Ideas facilitated by almost completely unfettered acess to the World Wide Web, Accountable Officials and the Right to Reply to Defamation and Misreporting and a Reciprocal Mutual Relationship with it's immediate neighbours and beyond(throwing the rubbish about 'imperialism' in the trash) topped off with almost a thousand years of near-constant Liberal Progress since the end of the Dark Age?
Or
A society governed by Populism, with an ex-Secret Policeman in charge no matter what seat of office he holds in government, supported by State-Owned media Monopolisers, what ever passes for Rights in this Nation will not Protect Criticism and if you aren't killed by ideology-driven jack-booted thugs then there will be a Tool of the State using a Poison that could only be obtained by the State to take care of you, the Elite of the Nation consists of Billionaire Oliarchs with no obvious talent or brilliance except their Loyalty and nearly all Immediate Neighbours hate them(because of a clear genuine Imperialist History that has yet to be Denounced by the Ruling Elite) and only countries a comfortable distance away can enjoy something slightly resembling a Normal International Relationship, topped off with the bloodiest century so far in what was a long string of Circular Progress centuries.
I can question my media. I can investigate the facts they report. Can a Russian living in Russia do the same? No you can't. If you are a critic, you're done for. If you're a critic and you're popular; you will be bought and if you refuse you are dead. Read some of the articles right here on the Guardian website; see the culture of healthy scepticism and criticism, does this look like a 'brain-washed' society even remotely? Pay particular attention to the excellent Bad Science column where distortions by the media on science matters are criticially eviscerated. Does the State-owned Russian media have anything remotely similar?
For Mr Rigozin's information: Russia was not the first to express synpathy. It's a matter of record that French President Jaques Chirac was first on the phone to Bush on 9/11. Despite being utterly wrong, the Troofer Movement has fine-combed these details thoroughly.
Regarding the S.Ossetia war: independent NGO's were in the area during and then absolutely saturated the area afterwards with their investigations teams and simply could not find any evidence to back up the Russian Military's version of events. Georgia did not 'shell' civilians and supposed 'thousands' of casualties could not be verified at any hospitals or morgues. No list of missing people compiled has shown there to be thousands of casualties either. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International found only evidence of massive abuse, Geneva Convention breaches and collective punishment by Russian Forces.
Like China did during the Bejing Olympics, Russia made extensive use of internet astro-turfers during the period of fighting. I've yet to find one example where a western democracy has ever been caught doing this. It's an insidious propaganda tool for the Information Age where literally hundreds of workers(usually young people and students) are paid to promote a certain viewpoint on the internet. They're nearly always characterised by spam, inconsistency, never conceding points, never accepting points partially conceded to them(you must either fully agree or you don't, they don't tolerate nuance) and dodgy English(students with better English know they can make more money part-time as translaters).
Some people here, I don't recognise at all as being CIF regulars, one even jumped in and made a false estimate of how many posts came before theirs. Have some Russians been trawling the internet looking for a topic they can fight for the motherland in? How many can point out other CIF articles they're contributed to?
The west is not perfect, but we never claimed to be. What we are is improving, always improving. Being the best of being perfect doesn't matter as long as we are always trying to be better. But it seems Russia isn't even trying, opting instead to gain credability without the slow, hard progress neccessary first."
I really can't find anything at fault in this piece. Most posters so far who have reacted negatively to it, seem to have deepseeded anti-Russian feelings. And understandable as these may be, in the light of the USSR's occupation of Central and Eastern Europe, I don't consider it usefull to harp on about the past for decades to come. Like it or not, Europe and Russia are neighbours. So why not whipe the slate clean, move on, and try to get along for a change?
"You have told that Georgia should not react to the Russian provocation and was wrong, bombing apartment houses and killing peoples. Then explain why the European leaders have interrupted for a while contacts to Russia and threatened any the sanction while Georgia till now there is a military both monetary help and such support for the introduction into NATO. Why European leaders support the criminal state if both countries was guilty at least.
You speak about imperial ambitions, and speak about Soviet period. You understand, what it is marasmus? After walkover of Soviet army from Afghanistan in 1989 the Russian army was at war only 5 days, in August 2008. How many military operations your favourite government has spent? Yugoslavia (do you still remember country with such name?), Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Somalia. You say that you do not approve these actions. But what advantage of it? What can you tell to families of the killed people?
What is the South Ossetia? This small area with only one town. So what for it was necessary for Russia to begin this war for the sake of this region? Really you consider that someone seriously considers a question on restoration of Soviet Union.
If it not a problem name claims which you, Europeans, have to the Russian government. What you does not arrange in Russian policy (on points, please)?"
"Bloody hell that was quick.
Stranger2, potential strong candidate for a typical astroturfer."
"_AT_ ArecBalrin
Democracy is very big myth, beautiful word. I do not understand this word. Show to me where it is written - WHAT IS DEMOCRACY? If the journalist writes everything that he wants, it is doubtful freedom. If the journalist follows an edition line - especially. The journalist works for money. Money the editor pays. And he defines a policy of the newspapers.
I know there was a lot of falsifications during the August conflict at Western media. About what it speaks? About low professionalism or a prejudiced position of mass media? I hope that about the first."
Well I can't answer that until it does more than simply resemble English.
What is democracy and what is "freedom of press?". Why you sure that your mass-media is free?
And why you called me "typical astroturfer"? Which reasons you have for it?
"Russia is the natural leader of Europe.
Admit it into the EU and I will support the EU.
And then we would have a continent that could stand up to Isreal/U.S.A.
It's very depressing to see how many in CIF are trotting out ancient stupid prejudice."
"2yankeexv7
So why dont you nuke us? If you personally so sure it is possible to destroy Russia without any bad consequences why dont your colleagues in Pentagon start some Final Freedom operation? MB it is a bit early and you actually need Polish missiles? For guaranty…"
"I explained what I see as typical astroturfing behaviour in my large post above. Your posting conforms to it, as does your entire posting history on Comment is Free.
I never used the term 'freedom of press' that you seem to have attributed to me, nor have I ever said 'mass-media is free'. Sorry, but it is in fact more complicated and nuanced than that.
I said 'free-media' which is not the same thing as 'freedom of press'. 'Freedom of press' is a non-existent right tabloids invented to give the impression that their profession had rights that the rest of the population does not. The concept of free-media espouses the principle that a person may use their normal Right to Free-Expression as a business without it being infringed upon by the State because of it. State-owned Media Outlets are an under-hand way of eroding Free-Expression because they monopolise the public arena. Here in Britain we are well-aware that the government-funded BBC can be legitimatelly criticised because of this. But instead of critics being silenced or made afraid to speak, the criticism is acknowledged and the BBC often defers to scrutiny: a significant number of BBC channels have been curtailed and their duty is perform a public service rather than monopolise the media is emphasised. Zimbabwe has 'freedom of press', it doesn't stop them banning who ever they like from reporting in the country.
You'll have to forgive me if I think you are asking very leading questions, intended to get predictable answers which are then met with pre-concieved stock rebuttals. It wouldn't have been an effort to look up 'democracy' on Wikipedia. Perhaps you haven't heard of it because Russia has never had it; just a glorified popularity contest where the Lowest Common Denominator wins. It still doesn't prevent you from using the vast resources of the internet available to you to find out yourself.
""Democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried"" - Winston Churchill"
"_AT_freddybobs,

It was Russia who urged Saakashvili to sign a document that will make the sides to obstain from the use of force not long before his forces attacked S.Ossetia civilians. Needless to say, Georgian president refused to do so. It was Russia who in the middle of the Georgian bombardment of Tskhinvali rushed to the UN with statement proposal calling on both sides to renounce the use of force. It was Georgia, Britain and USA who rejected it. Sure, you do know that - BBC reported it, Guardian reported it... - it simply slipped out of your mind like obviously happened with many others on this CiF?
I also have difficulty to understand your logic why everybody should become instantaneously suspicious about Russia's true intentions behind Mr.Rogozin's comment. Because of Russia's record? But we do continue to believe US every time it proclaims its peaceful intentions and initiatives, don't we? Or is it because Russia is up to no good, whatever it does or does not do?"
"This is my last post on here, as the unthinking, unreasoning criticism of anything that does not agree with one person's point of view is getting too much for me. So I will try to address three different posts briefly:
Stranger2 - Not sure if you're aiming your comments at me or not, but I will assume that you are. Apologies if not.
You ask me to explain why European leaders interrupted contact with Russia and threatened sanction. Simple - posturing. That's all it is. Same as Russia closing down the British Council offices because Britain objected to Russia sending secret agents to the UK to poison people here. Posturing, that's all it is.

So what does that prove? Sounds like bragging, just like yankeexv7 did earlier.

My favourite government? Sorry, that's the most imbecilic comment you have made so far. What should I tell the families of victims of Western aggression? Well, I would say sorry. Not much more I could say. I never supported such action, so not sure why you want me to answer for it. How does that justify Russian aggression?

So you're challenging accusations that nobody has made? Why? Who said taking S. Ossetia was the rebirth of the Soviet Union? It was, however a perfect way to give Georgia a bloody nose for daring to challenge Russian hegemony.

Again, no idea what you're talking about here.
rice2dumb

Well, if you find threats aimed at Russia's uncompliant neighbours to be acceptable that's your prerogative. However I would like you to justify your allegation of 'deepseeded' (sic) anti-Russian feelings. Where do you get this evidence? Or are you one of those people who tries to stifle debate by calling the other side anti-xxxx and thereby de-legitimising their opinion? Please back up your claims.
ArecBalrin
You do make some valid points, but you lost me completely with

I assume you are not including the UK with it's stifling of debate, snooping on and intimidating dissenters and protesters, detention without trial, corruption within the highest levels of government, libel laws to protect the rich from the poor, restricting the right to protest, etc, etc.
Are you talking about the USA with it's regressive Patriot Act, torture, wars of aggression etc, etc?
I'm afraid I don't recognise this 'constantly improving West'
When you level the accusation at Russia that:

Have you ever stopped to wonder how Latin America feels about the USA?
Anyway, I'm done with this thread. With the exception of the somewhat rational justuser, I see too much entrenched opinion along the lines of ""my side is right, and yours is wrong, no matter what""."
"""So why dont you nuke us? If you personally so sure it is possible to destroy Russia without any bad consequences why dont your colleagues in Pentagon start some Final Freedom operation? MB it is a bit early and you actually need Polish missiles? For guaranty… ""
Because no one but Russia seems to actually want a war. Remember this article is what counts as 'reconcilitary' in Mr Rogozin's view and he was appointed Ambassador to Nato precisely because the Russian Government wanted an incindary, ultra-nationalist facist to be the face they show to us. It was not an accident, but very deliberate and provocative, as was the near-intrusion into British airspace in 2007.
When George Bush appointed John Bolton US Ambassador to the UN, the outrage about this was immense and his ultra-nationalist views were roundly condemned. The fact that Russia didn't get the same treatment epitomises exactly how restrained the west is trying to be regarding Russia's increasingly aggressive behaviour."
"There are honest western jornalist. But too few...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/31/russia-georgia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7692751.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/world/europe/07georgia.html?_r=1&scp=44&sq=ossetia&st=cse
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mary-dejevsky/mary-dejevsky-why-did-the-west-ignore-the-truth-about-the-war-in-georgia-1012234.html
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2008/11/11/reckless_georgia/
And many more, but still too few. How they can to to resist that massive outrageous lie made by mainstreem media like CNN, NBC and other perfect brainwashing machines."
"Rogozin knows well that the only consequence of Eastern European anti Russian posturing within the EU is to weaken it. Hence the provocative 'inferiority complex'.
The largest states in the EU are one and all seeking accommodations with Russia. Germany has declared its strategic interest in a close working relationship. Rogozin you can stop now, you won. All the powerful states of Europe are at your disposal for any mutually beneficial venture. The smaller states can go hang. Isn't that your drift? Well that's politics. It stinks but its preferable to a good clean war."
"_AT_ArecBalrin: I agree that Stranger2's English may not be perfect. How good is your Russian? (or any other language you may claim to speak?) Is having to resort to this low tactic actually weakness of argument on your behalf? You bet.
Here is also why:

Still a monarchy? When did women get to vote? When did men without property get to vote?

Media are proclaimed free everywhere these days, so are all sorts of rights.
Media in the UK are free within editorial policy, whoever pays calls the shots. Rights are protected if one can afford to stand up for them - have you been to a lawyer lately?

See above about official accountability. One example: George Galloway, MP, was denied entry into Canada to deliver academic speeches on the grounds that he spoke against Israel's war crimes in Gaza.
Immediate neighbours? ""If there is anybody we hate more than the Germans these are the French!"" The person who said it to me was no public authority of course, those use more diplomatic language.

Do you actually believe this? Last I checked, European Reformation, Enlightenment and Renaissance started on the continent not on the isles. Meanwhile Britain was busy enslaving others both militarily and economically; even with so much bounty snatched from all over the place, Dickensian England was not a pretty sight and this was the 19th c.


Populism is the least you can accuse the Russian government of, post 1990. Anything goes I guess when you feel superior.

Untrue. Have you heard of Nezavisimaya Gazeta?
Do you read any Russian by the way? Go visit the www if you do; I bet you will be stunned by how wrong your stereotypes are.

What happened to Dr.Kelly, the scientist who denied WMDs in Iraq? Committed suicide they told us.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Why does this conjure reminiscences of NBS and its high executives?

Not all: not Czechoslovakia after Munich 1936, not Belarus, not half of Ukraine, not Armenia, not Kazakhstan; and recently not Kyrgizstan nor Tadzhikistan.

The UK is not a comfortable distance away? I get it - that's why it has always perpetrated aggression against Russia ever since 1834; had to put up with them until they defeated Hitler for you but other than that...

Imported from the West, on German money in 1917; but then Russia only became a superpower as the USSR, didn't it?

Yes."
"ArecBalrin:

Exactly. The ones that you have tried, after pillaging almost the whole world. Where else did this system bring prosperity? How come all successful tigers today are authoritarian, including China?
The conviction that this is best for everybody in the world is so G.W.Bush it beggars belief. Are you also convinced that it is OK to impose democracy with bombs and guns?"
"Freddybobs, if you are going to come up with supposed challenges, please be more specific otherwise you make it impossible for me to concede a point even if you are right.
I said explicitly ""the west is not perfect"", why do you think I did? I didn't say it because I needed a diplomatic qualifier to put a nice dressing on the mud-cake I'd thrown Russia's way, I said it because there are a lot of good reasons that can illisterate the point. However, the status of 'not perfect' does not disqualify 'near constant progress', especially not in the context of a thousand years. Because of this, simply listing the reasons why the west is not perfect does not constitute a point made that there has been no virtually constant progress in the west. Picking out the worst case scenarios and presenting them as 'the thing and the whole of the thing' does not make for a good argument, especially in light of any actual accurate reading of history, drawing no special emphasis on any individual event.
Can my argument in defence of the west apply to Russia? Does listing Russia's faults amount to simply pointing out Russia isn't perfect? Bare in mind, the defence of the most barbaric regimes in the world has been to concede they are not perfect whilst quickly pointing out that no one is, drawing a terrible false equivilence. This is why I used the qualifier this way ""We are not perfect, *But We Are Improving and Want To Improve*"", an argument no country can make without the Rule of Law, Freedom of Expression, Association and Inquiry, Democracy and Constitional Representation. Russia has nothing short of a joke when it comes to these, hence saying 'Russia is not perfect' is a false equivilence.
We are allowed to criticse the problems we have in the west. We are allowed to seek redress and justice. History has shown that it's extremely likely these crimes will be answered for in the future; the future is a bigger place than the now."
"If GreekForGodsGift thinks I'm going to answer a zebra-crossing quote-mine barcode, he's taken on too many bad internet habits. When you respond to someone in the quote-reply-quote-reply format, you're not even having an argument with them but distinct strawmen constructed in a vacuum away from each other.
I am my view, my view is only partially my argument and my argument is not at all a collection of quotes. *You are not even arguing with me*."
"Interesting comments, I find here!
Perhaps I will open several accounts here and post different opinions, just for the sake of provocation!
And as to who will win - Russians or anti-Russians - the answer is: those who will eventually prove smarter.
Stupid arrogance will hardly do."
"_AT_ Midnike
""There are honest western jornalist. But too few...""
I can also recommend BBC video on this link. Very pragmatic report of the British journalist without aggressive style, which so like by Western mass-media.
http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/07/10/16/3518/245738.html"
By the way, I am strongly anti-British, because my first cousin lives in Britain - and I don' like her!
"After ""good"" English like ""Bare in mind, the defence of the most barbaric regimes..."", ArecBalrin goes on to say:

If the Russian state were to come after you for libel ArecBalrin, as I would if I were they, can you afford a UK lawyer?
'cause if not you are toast :)"
And as I am anti-British, I want my already very bad English get worse and worse!
"Stranger2, journalists are supposed to be aggressive. You might not have noticed how it works in the west: but they uncover things powerful people would rather stayed hidden when they are most determined to do so. A journalist can be destroyed by criticism that they are soft. We were reminded of this very recently in the Jon Stewart - John Cramer interview.
Journalists that go soft on your interests or take your side are not 'honest', they may even be the kind of friend that does you more harm than an enemy ever could."
"Nice try to chicken out, but it won't cut it.
You spout so many comma-separated distinct untruths that answering bulk is not an option, they have to be dealt with one by one."
By the way, what about my idea to switch this whole discussion into another language? Russian, eh?
"Was Georgia provoked by the Russians? Im pretty sure it was. Was Saak stupid enough to firstly sucking off the Americans and secondly trying to f.ck the Russians? No doubt about that?
The Russians needed this war and needed it badly. Bush would have killed for the chance to leave the office having Georgia and Ukraine in NATO.
The Russians dont care if those countries will join the EU. But not NATO. You can hate that veto right over independent countries choices, who cares. It was a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY for Russia to make sure that Georgia nor Ukraine stay neutral. Because after that there would be Azerbaijan Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan and so on and on.
So - it had to be stopped at any cost.
The West was aware of that. Thats why Germany, France and Italy didnt let that happen last spring - they knew what was gonna happen. The UK was aware of that too, but since it has no its own independent foreign policy it was happy to oblige to the American demands. Same with the rest of NATO countries.
The Americans wanted that war too. If it were a success - good. They would study the action set up a couple of military bases in the country and move on to Ukraine.
If it were a failure - still good. They would study the action, let the world to see how ugly the bear was, scare the American public and get a few nice new military contracts. You cant seriously expect the Americans to believe that a few hundred F22 would be needed to chase Taliban on donkeys. The US needed the ugly bear to emerge.
So - the proud nation of Georgia with its shiny new army got its little war.
Saakashvilly instead of being a statesman turned out to be a real idiot. He could have milked both the US and Russia for years using their discrepancies on the issue.
And what did we get?
The Russians drew a red line.
The Americans got the Poles to sign the ABM.
The Poles and the Baltic Republics got their nightmares back. /Those bloody Russians cant sleep until they can grab their lands back and eat their children/
So - who was to blame for the war?
Was that the US that kept pushing with the NATO expansion encircling Russia now from its south even though it had been warned that there was a red line?
Surely no.
Was it the Georgians who blindly followed the US and their own dumb presidents?
Nah.
It was the bloody Russians, the paranoid idiots who believed that the nicest, kindest MILITARY block on earth wants to encircle their worthless country. It was stupid Moscow that imagined threat from the friendliest military block on earth which is purely defensive organisation that NEVER caused ANY harm to ANY country.
Those dumb Russians. The bloody murderers."
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"New Zealand aborigines are being imbued by the spirit of Russian Orthodox Christianity. More and more representatives of the Maori tribe enter Russian Orthodoxy and call their children Russian names. The advance of Russian Orthodox Christianity in New Zealand is due to the missionary activity of emigrants from Russia.
So here is where the end of the West civilization comes from!"
Ha, experts in English! And so earnest, you all!
"Oh, I get it: this nonsense about Russia provoking the war, etc. – it is the whining of the losers. NATO lost badly in its war against Russia that it started on 08/08/08. But there is losing to the allegedly scheming enemy who was provoking the naive and innocent Saaka – one of NATOs top bitches (never mind the UN resolutions drafted by Russia on the non-use of fire before and after the war started mentioned above by coffeeegirl – it is mauvais ton in the west to mention facts, especially such as that fat ugly cow representing GB in the UN Security Council blocking those resolution, i.e. encouraging the genocide of S Ossetians by Saaka). And then there is completely different type of losing – losing to the country who was in the right, who stood by S Ossetians against the NATO-supported f***head Saaka. So, NATO has lost the war it started against Russia in S Ossetia and then tired to blame Russia for it – propaganda that would have made Goebbels proud. Tough.
However, most (thinking) people in the west did not buy the lies by the western politicians and their discredited media. Why? Because of a) the war in Iraq; and b) wide spread of the Internet thanks to which people who cared could see the blatant lies and tricks used by the western media (passing pictures in S Ossetia for those of Georgia; shutting up witnesses), etc.
Like ignorance of the law excuses no-one so ignorance of the facts of the August 2008 war excuses no-one.
http://www.war080808.com/ For those who want to know the truth."
"to add one recent example to midnike's list:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,615160,00.html
of course, it comes with blaming Russia a bit as well - as otherwise Merkel and Sarko let alone British political establishment would have to apologize to Russia but how can they possibly un-hug, un-kiss Saaka, wiht the Home Secretay being way too busy with her Wankergate (paid by British taxpayers)?"
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"And for etymology of `bear' and `bare' please see
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bear
and
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bare
respectively."
"I am sure all intelligent people thought that midnike's list would at least have some sort of an impact on cutting down gibberish. Of course not – the brain-dead are figthing back hard, well like NATO in August 2008.
Another interesting article though (I know I am sad throwing pearls in font of the pigs): http://exiledonline.com/how-to-screw-up-a-war-story-the-new-york-times-at-work/all/1/"
Still waiting for that independant evidence Lenaa.
Can I just pick on what Greek said: many o us non-native English speakers make mistakes. So what? We have quite a few Brits working in Russia. Mind you, working, not killing their time by commenting on CIF. So next time an English guy makes a mistke in Russian – should I tell him to f*** off or to first take a proper course in Russian before he dares to speak to me again? Jut tell me – Ill follow the rule.
Nice words but funny how those countries that were occupied by Russia for 50 or 80 years now seem to be the most concerned about Russia. Perhaps if Russia stopped attacking them (Estonia and Georgia) or threatening them (just about all the rest) they might be a little more trust worthy.
"OK, good-bye to all. Finally:
ArecBalrin, don't be so earnest. Because Serious People always lose. Better bye some Russian Vodka and make friendship with those mysterious Russian evildoers!
Lenaa, I like your word brain-dead. So they are of course, but they do have an inertia of a great civilization, so Russians do have something to learn from them. Or not `from them' but rather `looking at them', ha-ha!"
"Lenaa, I explained this as best as I could, I don't know how I could make it any clearer. I do not care about spelling and grammar mistakes. I do care if I can't understand what someone is saying.
I couldn't understand Stranger2, the reason was grammar.
But I couldn't understand Freddybobs either if you remember, for reasons not at all related to grammar. Why was a fuss kicked up over my criticism of Stranger2 but not Freddybobs?
The first obvious answer is no one actually cares, they're just looking for a reason to be personal. Second, Freddybobs wasn't on 'their side' so all that phony concern evaporates. It doesn't matter that Freddybobs disagreed with me as well as them: they do not tolerate complexity and nuance, shades of grey or ambiguity. He disagreed with them, he is not on their side, so they have no reason to express fake outrage over anything I say to him.
It's precisely that kind of erratic behaviour that makes me suspect there is astroturfing going on here.
Despite all this, none of them asked me to clarify my views or engage with them, instead trying at every turn to sink any possibility of a level discussion. EgolXop isn't even attempting to join in with the topic, but is trying to provoke a reaction and is being *rewarded with recommended points* by someone for it."
Oh, those countries are so concerned about Russian, aren't they? Well , with Georgia who was contributing to the USSR budget about 1.5% (and that was in rotten tangerins and crap tea) whilst getting back c. 5% in oil, gas, etc? 1/5 of Georgian population being music teachers because they did not have to work at all, staring from the good gtime of Georgias Stalin (Georgian scumbag) ruling. Or Estonians – who after the break-up of the USSR became the sex-tourism capital of Europe, before Ukraine abolished entry visas for Euros? And, the stupid USSR was bulding thier indutsry - not ass-shaking enterprise. It is hilarious. Keep posting. As I said: It is cleat to me that in the UK ignorance is a virtue. Not so in Russia.
"That doesn't even answer the point Lenaa. Even the British Empire wasn't all about beating colonised indigenous people and snatching children, but for all the good things the Empire brought to poor lands it doesn't excuse what we did and we are still paying for it. Some say too much, some say not enough. Russia is no exception and like our Empire the USSR was a mixed bag of extreme contrasts.
Britain has apologised for hundreds of national shames committed over centuries in just the last fifteen years alone. Tony Blair even apologised for the Irish potato famine and we can expect Gordon Brown or the next Prime Minister to apologise for the collective punishment of the German people after World War 2 if this hasn't already happened without my notice.
Sorry isn't hard, but I don't think former Soviet nations are going to ever hear it, especially with the current Russian government staying in power because of extreme nationalism and populism."
Just want to say: I will always remember the overwhelming understanding if not support of the Brits during the NATO-Russia (aka Georgia- S Ossetia) war. Seriously, with all the propaganda, Brits all in all were smart and cool.
"Lenaa, during the conflict and even now I was of the impression that the Georgian leader was a total idiot. This is a view I believe to be shared by a great number of my countrymen. It was my American father's opinion too.
We've been warned repeatedly about the non-existent threat of 'Russiaphobia' first by Mr Rogozin and then by some Russian posters, the belief that Russia can do nothing right.
Contrast this with the over-abundant evidence of Russians that think us ignorant westerners can do nothing right. Apparently it doesn't matter what we think; just what your very clearly biased media tells you we think."
"ArecBalrin, more than half of my points were questions - rhetorical or otherwise. Rather than responding, you resort to personal abuse again, and ask for my personal opinion of you - one I could not possibly have.
Rather than reporting the above, I will leave it for everybody to see; I cannot promise on behalf of the moderator however that he/she will not act on it by themselves..."
"_AT_ ArecBarlin
Specially for you I will repeat my post which was written in bad English. I consider that democracy is abstract concept. As: 1) there are no certain criteria of this word which are recognised by all countries; 2) it is not defined, how it is necessary to define, whether there corresponds this country to these mythical criteria or not; 3) it is not defined, who will define conformity of these criteria. (in other words, it is impossible to logically say: ""Democratic country must have following signs: 1) 2)... It is authentically established that this country does not correspond to these parametres. Means, this country is not tdemocratic"")
I consider that democracy is a myth. In the West peoples repeat from school years ""Democracy it's good. We lives in the good democratic country. Autoritarism it's bad. People live in the authoritative countries badly "". The western peoples grows, beliving in this.
But in a reality democracy is a beautiful word. This is abstraction, which is used by politicians, saying the remarkable speeches. I think that the Reagan's words ""USSR is Evil Empire"" became the best example of such primitive classification on ""white"" and ""black"".
You speak about ""freedom of the press"". However all mass media have the owner, magnate and the own political line. Journalists who work in the newspapers, receive payment from the own magnate and cannot go against this line. Anybody from the western journalists did not criticise openly western politicians and the own bosses (like Ted Turner for example). As it say mediamagnat in ""Citizen Kane"" - ""I open to you one secret. Peoples will be think such as I want"".
You speak about people's rights on a life. But if in such superdemocratic country as the USA are the death penalty when the government can kill own peoples by lawful way, about what right there can be a speech? And if you have conflict with a criminal mafia, that no one country can guarantee your safety.
I lived in the Soviet period short time. It was the authoritative country in 1980st years. Then there was only one Communtistic party, there were no independent of the mass media, people could not leave in other countries, the majority of people did not have money, business has been forbidden.
Now In Russia there is a lot of political parties (I agree that the government party has the greatest quantity of voices, but the pluralism is absent). There are few independent mass media (free channel REN-TV, radio station ""Echo of Moscow"", ""Independent Newspaper"", Internet, free acsess to the Western newspapers and the Western channels). There is a full freedom of movement of people in other countries. People can be engaged in business.
I agree that in the West this system have had wider development. But we in Russia live in new time of only 17 years. I am assured that the next generation of peoples can approach democracy to the western standards. But I am assured that Russia should to select the Japanese model of development - to cooperate with the western institutes, but to save the own historical and cultural roots."
"Rogozin is right. We've wasted FAR too much time and treasure plotting and maneuvering against each other, and I hope Russia will be reasonable about its claims on the Arctic, while we stop our (First Strike) missile ""defense"" plans in Poland and the Czech Republic.
Some may find my remarks under Dmitry Peskov's recent column about Russia not returning to Stalinism of interest as well.
Something I should have mentioned there is how important it was that Vladimir Putin remained a good and personally supportive friend to President (GW) Bush, despite all the neocon warmongering by Cheney and the neocons. Putin warned us Iraq would be a ""terrible mistake,"" and he was entirely right.
And no matter what he went along with -- I believe initially to protect his brother Jeb from accusations about Election 2000 and then everything just went out of control -- Bush must be credited for appointing Bob Gates Secretary of Defense. Gates stood up to Cheney and the neocons and, I believe, basically prevented World War 3.
There are so many grave problems confronting humanity now. The great powers must work together again, to address and control them. China unleashing its pet pit bull North Korea is as counterproductive as it is dangerous.
Lou Coatney, Macomb Illinois, http://LCoat.tripod.com (Moscow Defended! - free lunch-hour boardgame)"
"Stranger2 has finally given me something cogent I can respond to, I will in a moment.
GreekForGodsGift, I was under the impression that just about every single one of your questions was rhetorical, leading or inflammatory. I was given no civil reason to answer them. I have not resorted to *any* personal abuse at all and have made a point of avoiding it. Describing you as I have has always been in relation to your actions here and now: not your abstract opinions, origin or presentation. You have made absolutely no attempt at a discussion, the only difference between you and EgolXop is that they weren't pretending to be anything other than a troll(I reported their missing post for trolling to see if it were automated and I suspect it partially is).
Stranger2, ever heard of Loki's Wager(Appeal to Ambiguity)?
Loki was Thor's brother and in some interpretations of Norse mythology, the trickster god, lord of mischief. He accompanied Thor on adventures and whilst Thor triumphed by might, Loki succeeded by cunning. One day he made a bet with the Dwarfs but he lost. However, he didn't have to pay up because of what he had wagered: his head. When the Dwarfs came to collect Loki argued that whilst the Dwarfs did indeed own his head, they had absolutely no right to his neck. After a squabble it was agreed that the Dwarfs either had to take the whole head and only the head, or leave it. Because it couldn't be established where Loki's neck ended and his head began, cutting it off was impossible. The fuss over what was not defined circumvented the question of ownership completely.
So if I have to define what democracy is, what is the point and to what end? There is not a single ideology or political mechanism that the Appeal to Ambiguity can not be made for and it is exactly what regimes that fear such ideas use, not to discredit them(ice-skating uphill), but to avoid having to discredit them in the first place.
This is why I say it's not important that the west is perfect or the best, but that we are always trying to be better. Democracy is not meant to be a system to have, but an ideal to strive for, as are human rights and all the other things I've talked about.
What I have not talked about(except in response to your earlier claim that I did) and made a point of not talking about is 'freedom of the press'. Freedom of the press is not Free-Media, nor is it Freedom of Expression or Inquiry. I've explained this already. But your point is about journalism as a business and it's relationship with politics. I've already commented on this but will repeat it just to make it absolutely clear: criticising our media has pretty much become tradition. A journalist can be destroyed by accusations that they are not living up to the espoused ideals of their profession: Christopher Hitchens is an aggressively visceral sceptic, his brother Peter was a credulous Tory hack in the 90s. One is now an internationally recognised name with a string of successful books, the other was reduced to writing columns cheap tabloids and it was only at the end of the century he found a spine and has become a much under-rated journalist. But he's unlikely to be as big as he should be because of his lapses.
I fully concede our media is terrible. But who ever claimed they were anything else? I did not criticise Russia's media for being terrible like ours: I criticised them for not caring that they are terrible, for not being held to account for being terrible and for Russia's people not speaking out(or not being allowed to) about how badly served they are by their media outlets. That is the difference between our media and the Russian media. That is the criticism that has to be made. I don't ask for it to be perfect, I don't for it to be the best: I ask for it to be better. This is what our ideal for our society is: for something to be better today than it was yesterday.
Our media is terrible, but it used to be worse, which means that despite being terrible it has got better somehow(most likely the intense scrutiny it faces these days thanks to the internet) and will probably get better. Can a Russian say the same about their media?
This is the case with every other point you mentioned. Parts of the USA have the death penalty, but almost none actually perform any executions except Texas. Why is this? Because the ideals we aspire to presented a challenge: evidence does not support the death penalty as a deterrent, bronze age morality is unconstitutional and there is arguably nothing separating the executioner from the criminal in any accepted moral philosophy. They used to kill people all the time, what happened? It's an on-going fight and it's already clear by now that capital punishment will not survive unless a catastrophe happens.
Russia had progress during the 90s, but none that I can see under Putin and his gang. It's nice to see a leader without a belly, but it's not progress."
"To add to my previous post, Mahatma Gandhi was once asked what he thought of 'Western Civilisation' :
""That would be a good idea.""
Brilliant. He demonstrate that he knows exactly what western civilisation is."
"'Such attitudes prevail in eastern Europe, though the cold war is long over....'
Really Mr Rogozin?
This would explain why Russia refers to it's immediate neighbours to the West as being in it's 'sphere of influence' in a crypto-imperialist-Soviet manner. Regardless of wether they see it that way or not.
This is why Russia uses energy as a weapon.
This is why Russia imposes numerous spurious trade embargos on its immediate neighbours for political reasons, whislt claiming that they are not political, when they blatantly are.
Numerous violations of the airspace of Baltic states by Russian jet fighters.
Pull the other one Mr Rogozin, contrary to what you may think we are not all naiive idiots in Europe. The reality, which differs considerably from your version of 'reality' speaks volumes.
So you would like to replace NATO with the OSCE ?
This Russian proposal was voted on recently by the OSCE and over 50 members voted against your proposal, only 1 voted in favour of it. Wonder which one that was! As reminder the OSCE is not soley comprised of those 'unreaonable' Eastern European former vassals of Moscow.
Perhaps you could let us know about the proposed legal standards you would intend to stick to if in the very unlikely event your proposal is taken seriously. I ask this as Russia has disregarded the OSCE on numerous issues, including those of human rights.
But 10 out of 10 in trying to split West and East in NATO/EU whilst playing the usual disingenious role of the reaonable reliable partner as ever. Sorry after turning off the gas taps in January nobody buys into this Kremlin pantomime anymore."
"_AT_ ArecBarlin
You speak about progress in 1990st. I confirm that fact that influence of the American culture on the Russian peoples (in particular on youth generation) was so great more than ever. It concerns films, music, language, a menthalitet and many other things.
Now the relation ordinary peoples to Americans is even worse than it was at the times of the Soviet propagation. During the Soviet period ordinary peoples did not have such Antiamerican feelings.
Now let's think, what has changed for this short period? Why such sharp change of emotions? Think of it to tomorrow.
Good night."
"ArecBalrin:

Still, they were valid and real questions. I used no more inflammatory stuff than you do in your comments about Russia. Pot and kettle. Or should Britain's history somehow be immune from criticism? I was not even doing this: I was criticising the rosy and cozy notion of it that you presented: FYI rule of law is fairly recent, the legal system rather relies on precedence; universal suffrage only fully occurred after WWII, after the USSR; freedom is only available if one is rich, else lawyers don't bother and it is impossible to appear in court without one, b.t.w. it is possible in Russia.
And, I know both countries, am fluent in both languages etc.

So calling me dishonest, under-handed, spiteful and mean, was not personal abuse?"
"If you're going to pull ""should Britain's history be immune from criticism?"" strawmen out your backside, at least read here where I have already sung to the heavens of the benefits of criticism. Did you miss those posts or deliberately ignore them as I explicitly predicted you would do as part of the scatter-gun approach you take to debate?
British Empire
Collective punishment of German citizens
Irish potato famine
Calling my country's media not only terrible but saying not long ago it was actually even worse.
The way you continue to speak as if I had not mentioned these at all makes me think there is absolutely nothing I can say where we agree mutually and fully unless I absolutely and unquestioningly capitulate to you about everything discussed so far. There's no middle-ground, no nuance, no agreeing to disagree or the slightest concession of Russia's vices: it's your way or no way. So when I read:
""I was criticising the rosy and cozy notion of it that you presented: FYI rule of law is fairly recent, the legal system rather relies on precedence; universal suffrage only fully occurred after WWII, after the USSR; freedom is only available if one is rich, else lawyers don't bother and it is impossible to appear in court without one, b.t.w. it is possible in Russia. ""
...it rings hollow and empty. At no point did anyone express a view contrary to this one, but plenty perfectly compatible and in-line with it but you had to go throwing your damn weight around and abused the reporting system"
...either to make a point or to censor. Because you still haven't explained what it was you objected to in that post as I asked, I assume it was blatant under-hand censoring. As I said: I have not called you anything that doesn't relate to your actions. It would be an insult or personal abuse if it were about your origins, opinions or presentation. But it was about your actions and them alone.
"You seem to have capitulated already, by steering off topic.
And, no I can't agree with your extremist view of Russia's vices.

But you asked me to do so and assured me it would not work; however it did..."
"_AT_MoveAnyMountain

How about you start by respecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of smaller weaker countries? Serbia for instance? Iraq?"
Very interestingly, British imperialists are still commenting on this. Good luck! Still, can you kindly explain to me why you like so much those `weak' countries? Evolution is the survival of the strong, isn't it?
"BLO78, what makes you think anyone here is going to defend the illegal wars of our government?
Why say that unless you seriously think MAM supports them?
Exactly how does it amount to a justification for Russia's behaviour towards it's neighbours? What does it even have to do with it? You think if Britain has a despicable foreign policy that makes it ok for another country to do so too?
GreekForGodsGift has refused repeatedly to explain what it was about my removed post that they objected to. A moderator has now written back to me and revealed the complaint was about the post being 'off-topic'. Prior to successfully having the post removed, GFGG never expressed any concern for off-topic posting in this thread, for mine or anyone else's posts(including their own).
Right and wrong doesn't matter; only what sticks. What a delightful moral sewage."
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"Now if the next comment to be posted by a Russian apologist does not contain a condemnation or even criticism of EgolXop's posting habits, I will know there was never any real chance of a civil debate on this and if posters here are at all representative of Russian opinion; they will not be joining the free-world in my lifetime.
I know that's a bit melodramatic, but the one-sidedness of this thread is reaching breaking point and despite fully acknowledging the wrongs of my own side, the people I've argued with here utterly fail to admit to any of theirs except in the context of a justification. They then have the nerve to suggest it is others who are brain-washed by a biased and compliant media.
Despite my original frustration over Stranger2, this person is a serious and honest debater. I thought about the question they left me with and two big answers stick out, both of which I think are true.
The attitude in Russia has become more anti-western, I'm not sure it's confined to just anti-Americanism, but I haven't seen a poll showing if there is a difference between the popular Russian perception of 'the west' and a separate one for just the United States using the same poll and data. I think the first reason is to do with what Putin turning Russia into a Nationalistic state. Nationalism requires a certain arrogance and hostility towards other nations. When a nationalist state doesn't want an outright enemy, they still act with over-bearing passive-aggressiveness. It's this passive-aggressiveness I see in Mr Rogozin's article and his appointment as an ambassador to NATO. This article doesn't sound even remotely reconciliatory, but it doesn't stop him attempting token sound-bites of reconciliation with the west. He knows how most westerners will receive them, how most eastern europeaners will receive them and how Russians will see them. His primary audience appears to be his political power-base:pro- Nationalist Russians. Iran's president uses language like in this article all the time when talking to us(he had an alternative Christmas message broadcast on British Channel 4 last year): we are used to listening to nasty, cunning people telling us they are not really all that nasty and cunning.
But the second answer is what explains how Putin and his lackeys was able to do this in the first place: it's our fault. After the collapse of the USSR, NATO should have been disbanded immediately. It was formed to counter threats from the USSR and had no other purpose. With the USSR gone, NATO should have followed; there was no longer a persistent military threat to member nations. The west also failed repeatedly to keep to our obligations under the non-proliferation treaties on nuclear arms. Even now, Gordon Brown has decided to waste £20 billion on renewing our only semi-independent nuclear capability. We did not treat Russia well during the 90s while it was being served by an average but honest leader. Boris Yeltsin's death further complicated the argument for disbanding NATO and increasing relations with Russia as we feared what possible leadership it would have next.
So we failed to make the best of the best relations we'd had with Russia for seventy years and an authoritarian nationalist has been able to exploit this.
There is of course the small chance that Putin is not really as nationalist as he presents himself and he's simply doing what politicians do. If so, he's playing a dangerous game because there will always be someone prepared to go that one step further than a mere politician and Putin will have already done the hard work for them. In the west we have a problem with creating situations like this in other countries; we're shamefully good at it and should stop one day."
"_AT_ArecBalrin
Good position. I don't see negative sense in a word ""nationalism"". If you ask Americans the majority of them are assured that they live in great (if not the greatest) country. I consider that Russia is a great country with the big history, great culture and rich traditions (despite all political and economic problems). And I want that all Russian remembered it.
In 1990st years in Russia feeling of patriotism has been lost. The western traditions and the western ideals became a priority for the Russian peoples. I disapprove of it. In my opinion, it is impossible to simply copy the western model and to replace it in the Russian earth. And it seems to me, Putin's line in this question was correct.
It is not pleasant to me that this Russian patriotism began to accept some chauvinistic forms. But it's shown basically for some youth groups, not for the Russian peoples. Young generation always subject to maximalism.
You have correctly noticed that the reasons also that the western politicians have not shown respect for Russia in 1990st. I don't see at the western leaders of aspiration concerns Russia as to the good partner. For this reason the Russian people so it is critical are adjusted in relation to a policy of the West.
It does not mean that Russian peoples don't respect the western mentality. Russian (as earlier Soviet) children since the childhood read books of the western writers, including English - Daniel Defoe, Alexander Milne, Lewis Carroll, Robert Stevenson, Redyard Kipling and many others We regularly watches the western films on TV and on video. We do not have uncooperative altitude to the western culture, unlike the western policy. But when I read the first comment ""A scary article by a scary guy from Europe's scariest country"", at me the desire to speak with such peoples vanishes. Western Russophobia concern to all forms of the Russian life - both to a policy, and to culture (bears, balalaikas, vodka, putans, etc.)
thank you and bye,
Stranger2"
It does to me (sound conciliatory). I am sorry but is this just paranoia, or an attitude engrained through brainwashing indeed?
"Well we are returning to the past aren�t we? The great divide re-emerges, capital V labour.
Those that forget their history are doomed to repeat it. We have had 27+ years of the New World Order rammed down our throats and it seems to me we are about to choke on the diet.
Oh hum told you so
Andy"
It is not true to say that migrant workers have not taken away jobs from resident people. In years gone by my local paper always had lots of jobs available, especially in summer. This year there has been virtually none - at the same time, there has been a huge influx of immigrants/migrant workers. Is there really no connection??????
"Unconscious humour by Brother Bren....
""And their wage levels are likely to be even lower than the super-exploited Polish agency workers who are the stuff of rightwing tabloid scare stories.""
So the rightwing tabloids make up sensational scare stories about super-exploited people on very low wages and now Bren warns us about even lower wages being ""likely""!
So are the scare stories about low wages .....correct? Or is Bren responding to scare stories with even scarier ones?"
"Unconscious humour by Brother Bren....
""And their wage levels are likely to be even lower than the super-exploited Polish agency workers who are the stuff of rightwing tabloid scare stories.""
So the rightwing tabloids make up sensational scare stories about super-exploited people on very low wages and now Bren warns us about even lower wages being ""likely""!
So are the scare stories about low wages .....correct? Or is Bren responding to scare stories with even scarier ones?"
"Learn from the Australian experience. As a country it, will cost your employers less, to import skilled labour from overseas and pay them crap, than to train your own youth, and pay them a decent wage once they qualify. The nation will still get its jobs done.
Of course, this means poor prospects for today's young people: lower wages than us, less incentive to train - as well as higher rates of obesity, and shorter life expectancy. Those poor prospects seem like a Bad Thing: am I the only person who sees that? Maybe.
This is what happens, when your government bases laws and policy mainly on money and greed - whoops! sorry, I mean ""on the Economy""."
"""We live in an increasingly globalised world. Our best response is not to yield to little England, but recognise that the best way of avoiding a rush to the bottom is to fully embrace Europe; and that means accepting the free movement of labour as well as capital and goods.""
Well, thanks for these pearls of wisdom, Sir Digby"
Well said, Brendan. Now can everyone get over to The Telegraph site and annoy some of their posters. You would not believe some of the Colonel Blimp-like views being expressed over there.
"I beg to differ Brendon Government's ""growth"" paradigm is the fatal flaw. Humanity shares a single biosphere. Climate change already shouts that we have gone far beyond sensible limits. There is an imperative for Europe and the world to reduce its dependence on ""non-renewable carbon based fuels"": To adopt a less exploitative and ""softer ecological footprint"" economic model. The present economic model has a reliance on population growth as a key driver for an ever greater economy of scale. Inflation is held in check by an exploitation of those at the bottom of the social heap. A moderation of population growth is essential for environmental reasons. There is need also, to correct the growing social ill of a yawning income differential that gnaws at social cohesion. Is media's reticence a continued reflection of deference to the contemporary American led economists that still advocate the mechanism of an untrammeled market economy to boundlessly expand the opportunities for human existence?
Slick the light of the urban night That draws the young As moths to flame To the dazzle of the street A flux sustained by the sacrifice Of the lifeblood of the meek
Rent edifice distended and goal, of equity As tribute to the famous Replaces tribute to the free A sickness corporeal Manifest As spirit�s entropy
Prospect, scripted by the stars For advantage to secure The bondage of the willing To indenture�s iron jaws Their mortgage and commitment For promise unsecured
Shared heritage corrupted By increased burden For the poor A yawning differential That corrupts Respect for law
Behold a house divided Distressed by burden long By burden unremitting In the service of the strong"
Brisco Rant's got it right. When the TUC of all people falls for Thatcherite economics you know we're in trouble. It gets worse: the only party to see through globalisation, and spell it out, is our very own National Socialist Party: the BNP. Thanks Brendan!
"er.
Ummm
Anyone else getting a spot of deja vu?"
"Well said.
Will the little Englanders please remember that we also have to opportunity to live and work abroad. I believe that there are around 1 million Brits abroad. Possibly more. From pensioners in Spain to English teachers in Vladivostok.
I moved to Eastern Europe 10 years ago. I built a house for less than the cost of a small flat in the UK. My daughter attends a fantastic school & the cost of living is considerably cheaper. My best friend has done the same but in China.
I love it when people in Britain ask if I have to queue for food - at Tesco, yes I do. Freedom - it's a wonderful idea - might catch on
Right, I am off to the Telegraph site to annoy the Blimps over there."
"Republish yesterday's article without all the unfavourable comments? That's the way to do it.
Comment is free and disposable, apparently."
"Kingkerouac -- 'Now can everyone get over to The Telegraph site and annoy some of their posters'; David Rennie, their Brussels correspondent, did that a couple of weeks ago in a feature article at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=K4DXLVQMMXK45QFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/opinion/2006/08/23/do2301.xml and also blog piece at http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/foreign/davidrennie/aug06/borders.htm which argue much the same point as this piece.
Essentially, and this is what we mustn't forget, we can't stop someone from one of the New EU countries coming here perfectly legally, any more than can any other EU country. We can make it illegal for them to work when they arrive here, but all that means is that they'll work illegally, not that they won't come.
His feature article concludes:
'As a convinced free-marketeer, I must admit to moral qualms about welcoming people to live in my country, then turning them into criminals, just because they want to work for a living.
'But if moral arguments do not work, try self-interest. Expanding Britain's black economy is not a good idea. It would be bad for the health of society. It would reduce tax revenues, and hurt British workers, too. As long as east Europeans are working legally, their broad pay and conditions can only fall so far. Once people are on the black, employers can treat them as near-slaves, putting far more pressure on legal workers.
'Faced with an avalanche of headlines about immigration, British politicians may yet ignore the risks, and choose to follow the Belgian model anyway. It's their right, but I would urge a trip to Belgium first, to see that work permit restrictions on EU citizens simply do not work. If they do not believe me, they can come to my house, and meet the Polish workers camping outside.'
Since it's unlikely we'll leave the EU in the next few months -- which would certainly solve the problem, but might carry with it a few disadvantages -- the options are either to let people work legally, thus letting them enjoy the same minimum wage and employee protection as everyone else, or to force them to work illegally. The latter choice is bad not only for the people thus exploited but for the rest of us, who'll find ourselves in competition with people who have no choice but to take what an unscrupulous employer offers.
The only people to benefit if these demands to 'stop them working' are met will be unscrupulous employers. Simple as that."
"well you can only benefit from Eastern Europeans. While you are doing you best to keep them away from UK, USA is trying to attract as many as they can. Something else, USA is a better place to live if you're migrant. You'll never feel like home in UK, because English people will never let you.
I've seen so many English people in Bulgarian's resorts. I guess they like the beautiful beaches and women. If I was Bulgarian politician I would restrict their access to Bulgaria, so the UK people will understand what it is like to be treated like that. The only thing UK politicians will achieve is to make Bulgarians and ROmanias hate England
My advice to you Eastern Europeans is DONT GO TO ENGLAND."
"The TUC says yes to more immigrant workers. The CBI says we need a pause. What's going on?
As someone who lives and works in France a lot, I'd add that there are plenty of Poles (but way less than the UK) working in France, but they're working in the black market. So some of the unions are calling for the restrictions on work to be lifted, to end the two-tier system.
Also any visitor to Poland will be suprised at how any out of town shopping centre looks just like France. You find Auchan, Carrefour, Castorama etc, the the big French companies have gobbled up the land and assets already and yet the Polish workers are denied their chance in France. Hypocrisy? If you're going to allow the free movement of capital, labour must surely be allowed to move and work too?"
"""Lord Richard Layard, the co-director of the Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics, and the mastermind of Labour�s welfare to work programme, has written: 'There is a huge amount of evidence that any increase in the number of unskilled workers lowers unskilled wages and increases the unskilled unemployment rate. If we are concerned about fairness, we ought not to ignore these facts. Employers gain from unskilled immigration. The unskilled do not""
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Zac2dZBJxtEJ:www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/BrowneEconomicsImmigration.pdf+lord+layard+migration+unemployment&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1
One is left with the overwhelming impression that Barber is something of a simpleton.
Larry Eliot on BBC R4 this morning made the very valid point that as the Trade Unions had been largely ineffective in recruiting in the private service sector, so what makes them think that they are going to be able to recruit and have influence with migrant workers and so mitigate the problems Layard speaks of?
""Less than one in five (17.2 per cent) private sector employees in the UK were union members in autumn 2004. Private sector union density fell by 1.0 percentage point in 2004.""
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3999/is_200505/ai_n13643561"
Let's also remember that many of the economic migrants are highly skilled. My Polish wife has a Master's degree in Economics and currently works as a financial analyst in an international company. In Poland, she was director of a chain of schools and earned far more than she does here. And yet when she first went to employment agencies, the staff there just patronised her. She constantly remarks (privately) on the dullness, illiteracy and ineffectiveness of her British colleagues.
Don't worry Bob - I don't reckon it's a conspiracy - you can see the original post here (with all the comments bunfight): http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brendan_barber/2006/09/post_363.html I think CiF just put a new one up as they ran it in the paper today with a different title so needed to redo the page to reflect it. I've heard a lot of nasty stories about migrants being messed around by employers who know they've got them over a barrel, and as a double whammy, this plays into the hands of people who want to claim they're undercutting British workers and driving down working terms and conditions. I think Brendan shoots that fox pretty well with the suggestion of making bosses treat migrant workers properly and equally. Treat our new colleagues fairly and we'll gain by protecting our own jobs.
"So the Head of the Unions says ""A bar on east European workers won't bring down unemployment"". Alas another sign of stupidity in the Leadership of the Unions.
Dear Brendon, ever heard of the economics law of supply and demand? If the supply goes up and the demand does not increase by the same amount, then the price of that item is driven down.
In this instance it is the wages of workers. Remember them? Those are the folk that the Unions are supposed to represent.
Instead the Union head seems to think he should put the needs of non-UK workers ahead of the UK!
If Frank Field understands it, why doesn't Brendon?
Add this to the other sign of stupidity, funding a Labour party that implements policies that harm union members!"
"There are instances of migrant workers taking jobs normally done by UK people, for example Summer work normally done by hard up students:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2300740.html
Speaking as some one who has been unemployed in the past and am currently in insecure, temporary employment, and know of many others in the same boat, I do not welcome, comfortably off commentators dismissing the legitimate fears of people such as myself, about the threat to our employment prospects caused by this influx of people.
I also hope that the expansion of the EU is slowed down, because as well as threat to jobs, poorer areas of the UK are losing out on assistance and the money is going to poorer new EU member states."
"nietzsche39, I know some people in the same situation, Sounds like you have a great opportunity to move to Poland with your family, if it would be financial beneficial for you. I would guess that your wive made a great professional sacrifice to move to the UK, now that it may not be working, I would advise you to do the same in returm. (Sorry if I have presumed wrongly about your position.)
In general, such a dilemma exisits in amny families who move abroad. Every migrant worker and their family has their own story which does not it into the stereotypes put forward in the media."
"Faefife, you're going to be doomed for life unless you educate yourself, get some more skills or some good experience. Anyone doing menial jobs is going to find it hard. I'm not saying become a bond trader or doctor, just be good at what you're doing.
And as others have pointed out, many of the Polish and others here are incredibly well-educated and speak better English than many who have grown up in the UK."
If people really want to stop Bulgarian and Romanian citizens coming to this country and taking advantage of the higher wages that it offers, maybe they'd be happy to stop buying property in these same countries, taking advantage of low property prices in order to make huge profits on resale. Or does it only work one way?
Well there is 17% male unemployment in South Tyneside but a local shipyard have set up an agency to bring in polish workers (over 100) who are paid the minimum wage for the nightshift - massively undercutting the going rate for the job - It makes me sick to see the Unions taking this "politically correct" line on immmigration British workers at the bottom end of the labour market are now in some sort of darwinian survival of the fittest - and with an endless supply of fit hungry 20-30 year old immigrants from eastern europe the result is a foregone conclusion
"Anyone British who expects a job in shipbuilding is deluding themselves. Get out now whilst you can. The same goes for people making clogs, steam engines and cassette walkmans.
I was reading the other day that the legendary Polish shipyards of Gdansk are suffering too, they face closure and loss of subsidies and to cut costs, they're employing more and more workers from Belarus and Ukraine."
"Get this Brendan :
All we want is enough work so we can pay the mortgage and feed the kids. We don't give a toss about the welfare of someone we're in competition with over jobs, nor his rights. We're the ones being made into scapegoats not them. You're just having a laugh mate."
If life on Planet TUC is so rosy, why is Westminster Council paying for homeless, broke Poles to go home?
"Another limp wristed Old Labour reaction to a genuine concern. This is an ever decreasing circle. Of course industry is happy. They won't need to ship their call centres and product lines out to Eastern Europe or the Far East anymore to find low paid labour when they'll all be flooding here.
The issue for most people Brendan, is whose taxes are going to go up to pay for all the extra schooling, housing and healthcare it entails. That's right, mine. The Local Government Association - hardly a bunch of Mail-reading reactionaries - recently warned that council tax would have to go up by around 7% to cope with the extra demands on councils alone. Because many of these people are hardly Band Fs on your council tax ladder. Its up to the good old state to pick up the lifelong tab.
Same old, same old from you left wingers. ALways concerned about other people's problems but couldn't given a **** about the UK's own."
"xhenry ""a local shipyard have set up an agency to bring in polish workers (over 100) who are paid the minimum wage for the nightshift - massively undercutting the going rate for the job""
Yes, this is exactly what the liberal elite choose to ignore. Genuine examples where the people they allegedly represent are getting utterly shafted. I get so fed up with the right-on strawmen arguments about 'it's only agricutural jobs no-one wants in Norfolk', that they then smuggly tie up with the insult of 'racism'..
Barber could have spent the hour or so he took to write this nice little commision instead drafting a letter to the shipyard and preparing to raise this and other ghastly examples of exploitation this week at conference. That's if he was a genuine union rep of influence and principle, and not a latte drinking member of the kommentariat trying to make all us proles feel guilty about complaining what a pile of sh_AT_t ersatz lefties like him have really turned our country into...
And it really doesn't help that there are 50,000 new faces in the Midlands this year... (BBC News)- where's the extra cash for the NHS, schools and general infrastructure ? Central govt settlement increase ? Not on your nelly mate ! Council tax hikes ahoy, unemployment up, and just pay up you nasty little xenophobe.
It's genius really... the Tories must be so jealous..."
"johninnit: ""Don't worry Bob - I don't reckon it's a conspiracy - you can see the original post here (with all the comments bunfight)""
Thanks for that! The buns are still flying..."
"Lovely to see Labour solidarity in action. Reminds me of Tebbitts old quote - ""my father didn't riot, he got on his bike etc""
Well the Poles & Lithuanians did riot. In 1956, 1970, 1980 and finally in 1991 when cuddly Gorby sent tanks against the Lithuanians killing 19 as I recall. And now they have got on their bikes (or Ryanair) to look for work.
And instead of welcoming them & apologising for leaving them under Stalin all you hear is complaints from their working class brothers.
If Estonians are prepared to learn 2 new languages to drive a bus in Wales (English & Welsh) This is in addition to being forced to learn Russian - so their 4th language in all, then good luck to them.
Unemployment is higher in France & Germany than it is in the UK. France & Germany have not let in the East Europeans. The UK has. And now millions of East Europeans are learning English instead of French & German - making it easy for British citizens to work abroad.
No country ever got poorer through trade. Ben Franklin I believe"
"Stop blaming migrants.By getting the more migrants the inflationary tendencies of a decadent rentier economy dependent on depleting supplies of cheap oil are temporary curtailed and people like Barber can expoit the issue to increase the power and influence of the TUC to try and fix problems that could have been solved by a more sane migation policy.
By the way a little anecdotal evidence from someone who lives among the Polish migrant community in South London,of whom my wife Aneta is one,though she came with me from Poland in 2001 .She was talking in my kitchen with a friend of hers called Magda.One of the interesting things that came out was that she had come from Poland with a full list of benefits she was entitled to.It came out that she was planning to work for a year and then stop work and claim benefits.My wife told me that many she had spoken to were aware of this and ready to do this and work illegally whilst doing so.
Now,most Poles,of course, say they will work because they want to make a nestegg and return.
The next question,is what will they return to? Already Polish businesses are finding it difficult to grow and expand because so many skilled workers have just left.A recent survey revealed that half of 16 to 25 year olds in Poland want to migrate in the next two years.Why else is the TEFL business in Poland booming?
And what on earth is going to happen to the economy and society of Poland if this continues? Perhaps,adocates of ""European solidarity"" like Barber might care to address those questions if his vision goes beyong the ""Little England"" he reviles.
The neoliberal advocates of excessive migration,whether on the liberal-left or the right wing Economist variety never deal with questions like this.It is all self serving hypocrisy and short term panaceas and greed dressed up as market force ideology.
Other issues seldom addressed are overpopulation.Some Demographers have argued that Britain would be better off with an optimum population of 30 million and not 70 million.
And what happens if there is a major economic recession in the next decade,as all the indications suggest is a natural and re-occuring feature of the capitaluist economy,not least one like Britain's that depends so crucially on pure rentierism and property prices?A recession could lead,at a time of national crisis over Britain's identity,to a very nasty mood.
Ahh.We'll deal with that when it comes.But I have always thought that trying to plan for contigencies like that rather than in Utopian fantasising about Britain as an eternally 'successful' globalist hyper economic power rather than a feeble and artificially boosted former superpower might have some such figuring in planning for the future.
It seems to me that NewLab welcomes ""diversity"" and greater migration as a way of reconstituting vertical class structures and maintaining power and unearned privilege at any cost.Cut through the veneer of liberal sentiments and you will find that Blair's harmonious Oceanic Pop-Cultist workaday Utopia is one riven by ethnic,social and religious divides kept from full expression only by an unsustainable private debt ridden economy larger than Latin America's debts put together.
As for Nietzsche39's Polish wife;""She constantly remarks (privately) on the dullness, illiteracy and ineffectiveness of her British colleagues"",well,that is what I would expect from those whose qulifications and intelligence are not rewarded in her own country.There is a certain level of resentment from the Poles that they are more educated and astonishment that Britain has a rich economy in spite of that.She needn't worry.It will collapse once the American Superpower that guards its global economic model is curtailed and Britain becomes ever more,in JG Ballard's words,an offshore call centre servicing the needs of the Chinese super economy"".
Then,of course,when life becomes more difficult,we'll see all the bitterness and resentment come out.People are becoming increasingly socially and psychically dislocated in the West and the picture will not be pretty.Why else is a nasty piece of work like Nick griffin so obsessed with the Peak Oil problem.
The illiberal critics of liberal civilisation seem to understand it's problems more than New Labour and the Union reps.We are sleepwalking towards potential disaster.
Read John Gray's essay 'The Dark Side of Modernity:Europe's New Far Right' in his recent book Heresies. It won't just be the New Right that will benefit from an economic recession,but militant Islamists and extremists from all sections of society dislocated from the fall out created by a huge policy of enlightened social engineering and cultural repudiation.
Time to look at the 'bigger picture'-catastrophe or a dehumanised Brave New world-or a combination of both.Overpopulation,social anomie,psychpathologies,a surveillance state,ID cards,a constant terror threat..."
I think it�s no accident that the government decided against a moratorium on the right of the new EU countries� citizens to come and work over here. It was one more present from Blair to the �business community�. Besides, it�s totally in line with the current prevailing philosophy in this country, which is: why produce something when you can import it? This goes for consumer products, nurses, doctors, labourers... It looks like training natives is not deemed to be cost-efficient any more; besides it would require thinking in the long term, which is something our politicians are completely incapable of doing.
"Sorry, xhenry, but since the local shipyard have been able to fill the vacancies at the minimum wage, then that's clearly now 'the going rate for the job', is it not?
The fact that although the jobs were available, they couldn't find even 100 people out of the 17% unemployed in the area who were prepared to take them, preferring to remain unemployed, receiving an even lower income at the taxpayer's expense (including, now, of course, the 100 Poles, whose taxes will help support the local unemployed), tells us something about local attitudes to work, to my mind. Or maybe the locals were selflessly refusing to work for what they considered a lower than acceptable wage because didn't want to undercut what they considered the going rate, out of a sense of solidarity.
In any event, the problem is not solved, to my mind, by providing a large pool of illegal labour, which will inevitably depress the wages offered even by scrupulous employers. And demands to 'stop them working' are, effectively, demands to do just that.
Since these Polish chaps will be here legally, Mr Barber and his colleagues will be able to attempt to unionise them -- Polish shipyard workers are, as I recall, quite into collective action, or, at least, have been in the past -- and attempt to increase wages in such jobs. Not quite so easy so to do if loads of people are working on the black (which none of the long-term unemployed on South Tyneside would dream of doing, of course).
To NMcVicar, I agree 'it's only agricutural jobs no-one wants in Norfolk' is a straw-man argument, but it's doubtless a lot easier, if you're a farmer whose main -- indeed only -- concern is to get the harvest in at the right time, to contact with one agent to supply all the short-term seasonal workers you need for the specified two weeks, or whatever it is, than it is to try to fill the jobs individually. I suspect the attraction, in other words, of foreign agency workers is that you solve your employment problem with just a few phone calls rather than that it's cheaper.
What amuses me is that we always used to condemn the way Communist governments in Eastern Europe so severely restricted their citizens' freedom of travel. Now that's all history, thank God, some people seem to think the Communists maybe didn't have such a bad idea after all.
Heavens above, if someone wants to work at or above the minimum wage, and someone else wants to hire him with, at least, the minium protections of our employment and health and safety law, why try to turn it into a criminal offence?
http://notsaussure.wordpress.com/"
A bit of history. Before the First World War, a few thousand Lithuanians came to work in the coal mines and steelworks of central Scotland. The Trade Union movement was against this, and the sainted James Keir Hardie raved in the Trade Union press about the entry into Scotland of "unciviilsed" workers undercutting the Scottish working man etc, taking his bread away etc. How times change, now the Trade Unions are in favour of workers from Central and Eastern Europe.
"Notassure, look - you simply can't pay a mortgage on min wages. - perhaps your area of employment is not under threat. And many of the shipyards over the years if you care to read about it have made workers redundant and rehired on pretty draconian contracts, it's nothing new - all that's changed is the economy is even more depressed and nobody can get ahead. Issues of safety and quality let alone the savage on-costs to the local economy are what people care about too - you have to consider how demoralised broke regions can become. My point is that new labour are just as callous in the disregard of the on-costs of this massive, cynical redeployment exercise as the businesses they aver to be negotiating with on our behalf - it's the hypocrisy of New Lab that I find so upsetting, the Tories would just cite their economic analysis gurus and have done with it - without the prissy duplicitous moralising of the left. I could almost live with that. You don't know where you are with this lot though... let me explain...
The real argument is about quotas, which is what many EU countries, (including France - quite strictly adhered to, I might add), have introduced to counter the problem of the low-cost labour deluge. I doubt if we'd see any rioting in the street if Blair and Brown did that - except that their real hearts are with conservative economics and the maintaining the savage delusion of 'prudence' that is metastatising shambollic and pernicious PFI contacts in every UK county. Insiduous PC uptalk from comfortably off lefties like this guy just gives them more 'moral' courage to continue their programmes of division and wealth creation for the already comfortable. What a shower of shit then."
this is another example of Blairs inability to stand up for what he believes in. Instead of explaining the valid economic reasons for opening our doors to migrants he has sat back an allowed the kind of drivel repeated above to become popular currency. For the record, eastern european labour has depressed wages, but this means that we have avoided the kind of inflationary cycle which has ruined the good work of economic expansion in every business cycle since WW2. Higher wages for 1 year is no good if it means next year you are out of a job now does it? And as someone expertly points out earlier - acession to the EU has seen Polands financial sector fall almost entirely into the hands of western European institutions, why shouldnt the Poles get the chance to exploit their main asset, cheap and productive labour, in return. Fair is fair.
"Eastern europeans are prepared to work harder for less money than the British, so wage rates in the UK go down. British workers suffer and and have trouble paying their bills.
There is a labour shortage in Poland, so Ukrainians move there to do the work at rates the Poles are not prepared to take.
Rich people in Britain, making profits out of cheap Labour, and who now have cheap plumbers and child-minders, buy holiday homes in Eeastern Europe the local people cannot afford.
Is this really the sort of society the reactionary left want ?"
"""And as someone expertly points out earlier - acession to the EU has seen Polands financial sector fall almost entirely into the hands of western European institutions, why shouldnt the Poles get the chance to exploit their main asset, cheap and productive labour, in return. Fair is fair.""
Because the people whose wages are depressed by the policy you like are not the same ones who are buying up Poland. Simple really
That's a cracking contribution, Orwellsghost"
"The problem with migrant workers isn't the taking of jobs, it's the keeping wages low so the poor, already hit by a different inflation than the one the government claims, are kept in poverty even longer by low waged migrants. If Migrants are going to take the minimum wage or below, it means no shortages so indigenous workers are paid at lower rates. Great for the people who have student loans of thousands, and great too forn the people on the minimum wage who have massive fuel increases including gas and electricty, massive public transport increases, and massive council tax rises, all above the level of the governments inflation rate.
Well it's not great for anyone other than an employer and it's certainly not good for the country. And it's not good for the NHS where more staff are turning to agency work to increase their pay but even losing out here as migrant workers don't care about low pay.
We should put an end to allowing in new countries to the EU, or give the people their say in a referendum."
radished - yep and yep. Orwellsghost truly stands out amongst much of what gets posted here - CiF can get like the intellectual equivalent of a bunch of highly-strung five year olds taking it out on the dodgems.
Without economic immigration this country would be in far deeper economic trouble than it currently is - long may it continue.
"Great we are back to the politics are envy. I have done bugger all with my life so god help anyone else who tries to better themselves. Radished: Right so when economies of scale from companies bring down prices you don�t benefit? So when UK companies expand by operating overseas and pay more taxes you don�t benefit? So when migration from Europe enables the UK to break out of it inflationary cycle for the first time in 60 years you don�t benefit? When domestic companies can expand because they now have access to economically priced labour you don�t benefit eh?
And anyway what is to stop you heading off to higher wage EU economy such as Sweden or Denmark to make the gains that you are so bitter about the current wave immigrants to the UK are achieving? Nothing, but your own indolence."
As a life-long member of the Steelworker's union, Iron and Steel Trades Confederation, I am a great admirer of Brennan a great Trade Union Leader a man who recognizes the real wealth creater's of our Society the Worker's all wealth is created by men's hands, even JC recognized that 2,000 year's ago.
303 Squadron - Are your comments real or a wind up? On what grounds am I or anyone else supposed to feel "labour solidarity" with a load of workers from Poland or anywhere else, despite what they did or didn't do in bloody 1950s? My great-grandad died fighting Hitler, so where does that fit into your argument? Your logic seems to be: "let them in and screw the consequences because we should be good socialists" Not great, is it? And no, thanks, I don't want to move to Eastern Europe either.
"Let's get back to the basic premise: a trade union leader arguing for more workers to come to the UK.
Trade unions exist to make labour more scarce. Through collective bargaining and (the threat of) strike action, they exist to serve their members. In other words, calling for new workers to come, increasing competition between workers and eventually driving down wages: this is exactly the opposite of what a trade union should be doing in theory.
Instead, Barber is playing politics and expressing lofty ideas about international solidarity. Nice sentiments but this runs completely contrary to the role of his union."
"Same dross as yesterday.
Change the record and try remembering about your traditional core constituency as well, they might not be so pleased about the prospect of imminent wage reductions."
"Look Brendan, it's all very well to crow on about this but the problem lies with the vast disparity between the economies, wages and cost of living in countries such as Romania/Bulgaria compared to the much larger and more mature economies of the UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain.
While most of us don't object to competition on a level playing field, we don't have that at the moment. What is needed is a limit on migration until an adjustment of our respective economies takes place. And if that means the more well off have to fork out more of their income that's fine by me because, MORE IMPORTANTLY, if UK Citizens are refusing certain jobs then it's because they don't bloody well pay enough - nothing else! FFS, I'll go clean public shit houses if you pay me enough. Why is it automatically assumed that some suited individual pushing a pen in a City Office (and I've been there, so I know) should earn a disproportionately vast amount more than a nurse or someone who collects your bins? The problem is the wealth gap that has opened up in this country.
Don't you get it??!!
You are supposed to be a leader of working people. So please lead them and help to get this wealth gap closed rather than peddling flawed ideas."
"PrincessPam, NotTonyBlair
Yes, and if France and Germany can have quotas on this, which they do, why not the UK ?"
#On what grounds am I or anyone else supposed to feel "labour solidarity" with a load of workers from Poland or anywhere else, despite what they did or didn't do in bloody 1950s?# Genius....and here was me thinking that the tories have a monpoly on unflinching self-interest. You lot are an absolute joke; happy to talk about equal rights and oppurtunities until there comes the time it might impact on your lives and you are as reactionary as some Telegrapgh, reading major, living in a mansion in Surrey. well i hope that some hard working eastern europeans take all your jobs. at least they will deserve it.
"Lloydy2 - did your great-grandfather die fighting Hitler so that we could persecute East Europeans instead?
An intelligent comment from the European Voice
""It is a sad sign of the miserable timidity and pessimism of Europe's chattering classes that it is even necessary to point out the blazing success under our noses. It is even more ironic that the scaremongering comes in what is supposed to be the ""European Year of Workers Mobility"". That almost all countries in ""old Europe"" have now relaxed restrictions on workers from the new member states shows that their politicians don�t believe the nonsense they talk.
""Now the question is what to do about Romania and Bulgaria. Restrictions on their workers haven't worked very well so far. In Spain alone, there are 400,000 Romanians working, according to an excellent report on migration by ECAS, a Brussels think-tank. So if restrictions don't work even when these countries are outside the EU, why on earth should ""transitional arrangements"" and similar bureaucratic nonsenses have the slightest positive effect once they are inside?
""What restrictions will do is deter conscientious employers from dealing with the bureaucracy created by the restrictions. They won't deter unscrupulous gangmasters from hiring casual labour for semi-legal work.""
Don't want to move to Eastern Europe? - your loss, not Eastern Europes I imagine"
"_AT_NMcVicar, France imposed the restrictions on people working because:
- it has chronically mass unemployment - its trade unions have vested interests and lobbied hard to block new immigrants - many vote for nationalist, quasi racist parties like the 'Front National' who are opposed to immigrant workers - many vote for nationalist, quasi communist parties like the Workers Struggle, Communist Revolutionary League who are opposed to immigrant workers
...so therefore new workers coming along and working for cheaper rates than the existing workers would not go down well. In reality, there are quite a few Poles and others working in the black market, so much so that France is now allowing some workers in for the tourism and construction sectors."
Of course nobody should blame the migrants - at least, not the legal migrants. They've been given the right to come and work here; it's not their responsibility to think how that might put British workers out of their jobs or depress their wages, or how British taxpayers might then have to finance an increased burden of social security payments; and it's not down to them to consider whether there will be enough houses, or whether the roads will get too congested, or the schools overcrowded, or whether there'll be problems with water supply and waste disposal. No, the people to blame are those members of the ruling elite who decided that unlimited numbers of low cost foreign workers should be allowed to come here - the government, the CBI, and now it seems the TUC as well.
"Come on Brendan, spill the beans on who installed you as TUC Gen Sec.
I've just been reading more comments and as other contributors have said above, I can't work out why you are peddling this stuff when you know it doesn�t work. Employers will always exploit the system and cut costs if it makes them more money - and that's besides the supply and demand factors.
Were you installed by someone at NuLab who wanted to inflict right-wing propaganda on unions in order to change its members mindset or deliberately diminish the number of union members through disenfranchisement thus diminishing the power of the unions? It's quite obvious to me that either way, right-wing NuLab wins.
So who installed you? Come on.
---------------------------------
handinthebush
We all need to expand our thinking to understand the economics at work here. Cheaper rarely means better. What if often means is exploitation of labour or unsafe working practice designed to cut corners and cut costs, or the raping of natural resources. Mother Earth pays for this in the end. We all pay for this in the end. Sustainability, which includes Orwellsghost's poignant remark about overpopulation, is the key word. We are living in an unsustainable economy and as he says, it will eventually go bang. It's a form of pyramid selling - I hope you are familiar with that term."
you are right - and the flip side of that comment is that something more expensive is not neccesarily of higher quality. Overpopulation is an issue, but not one that related to the impact of immigration, there is the same number of people, just distributed in a different way. But answer me this: if there was legislation that limited the number of shops in this country, therby limiting choice and forcing people to pay higher prices that items are worth, i suspect you would think this a bad thing. why is it different for labour?
It's not just about economics. As even the govt pointed out for the first time recently the influx of large numbers of people from other countries/cultures/languages within a short period of time harms the social fabric. It makes people feel less at one with their community, less committed to it, it causes alienation. I don't blame anybody for wanting to move to another country for whatever reason (being able to make more money is a particularly understandle reason) and I favour the free movement of people on an individual level, however there is plently of room for legitimate concern about the social effects of the arrival of large numbers of poor young men from outside, of whatever race, without scapegoating those who would like to come here to live and work. The knee-jerk reactions to the employment problems of the 50s and 60s did not work because the numbers of immigrants from the Carribean and Asia were too large, thus creating ghettos, suspicion from the 'host' population and, ultimately, as a result of that suspicion, resentment on the part of the second generation immigrants. It has to be measured, someone has to take responsiblility for protecting the social and cultural fabric which has grown up over thousands of years - not by stopping immigration but by ensuring that its size and speed does not alarm the local population or upset local social and economic conditions to the extent whereby resentment and conflict can occur. The potential short-term economic gains are simply not worth it.
koolio. agreed, they have some nasty r-wingers lurking there, but we are talking schools in my area that have 50 new Poles and other immigrants to educate this year laone. They are already on a tightly restricted budget as are all state schools, so other areas of the school's programme will be cut. This is fact, not nasty red-top hysteria, because I know the dep. head, and he's trying to get bi-lingual treachers and interpreteurs on the books as we speak, and class sizes are pushing 40. If you multiply this accross UK, and then ad NHS and other infrastructure costs, we are seeing compromised services, already under attack - just to support a high-minded ideology. So why don't we limit the growth and stave off the long-term damage ? This doesn't make me a racist or a commie or a tory, it's just what people ion the public sector are saying all over the place.
I would like to ask the people who post here saying that unlimited immigration is OK and low wages are OK, are THEY prepared to work for �5.05 an hour ? And out of that pay into a pension scheme, days of work when sick etc., as well as pay rent, eat, pay for clothes, fares etc. ?
yep. been there done that. In fact for much less. In fact I have done every single shitass job in the world apart from cleaning the bogs in brothel. And all that time despite there being no Polish workers to compete again there was still a huge chunk of people from my hometown sitting on their asses, claiming benefits, doing sod all. In fact despite this massive unemployment rate local industry in east anglia has had to look abroad for workers coz the locals are too lazy to do the job. Why should I pay more for my pints, my meals in a restaurants, and my train fares, just to subsidize a bunch of workshy layabouts into doing a days work?
"NMcVicar, I appreciate that you simply can't pay a mortgage on min wages, but since you can't pay one, either, on JSA plus Housing Benefit, that can't be what's deterred the unemployed chaps on South Tyneside from taking the jobs, can it?
It's interesting that the example is shipbuilding, since that's part of an inevitably globalised market. A company that wants a new ship for its fleet isn't particularly bothered about who makes or where -- it could be South Tyneside or South Korea; what matters (in no particular order) is the price, quality and delivery. If the South Tyneside shipyard can't put together a sufficiently attractive package for the customer because his labour costs are too high, then the job will go somewhere else. Won't benefit these chaps who're apparently refusing to take the jobs at what they consider less than adequate remuneration in the slightest, and the money that the recently-hired Poles, who are happy to take the job at the wages on offer, would will be spending in South Tyneside and paying in taxes here will be spent by others in another country.
That's not a Tory economic analysis, to my mind; it's a simple statement of the way the world works.
You mention that many EU countries have introduced quotas and that these are, at least in France, quite strictly adhered to. I must take your word for it that they are effective, but can you explain how they work? There's absolutely nothing to stop someone from a new EU country going to France -- he can enter the country and stay there as freely as he can in the UK. The difference is that he can't work legally. So he'll work illegally. OK, he's not supposed to, but people aren't supposed to work cash-in-hand when they're signing on, either, or agree to offers to knock off the VAT on a job in return for cash and no receipt, but that's never stopped it happening on quite a large scale here. Are French employers and people hire tradesmen so much more law-abiding than are we? What happens to the chap caught working and to the person who's illegally paid him to do his plumbing? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be helping the French unemployment figures much.
And qwertyuiop, in answer to your question 'are THEY prepared to work for �5.05 an hour'; no, not at the moment, since I've managed to equip myself with various skills that command a considerably higher rate than that so normally I don't need to. However, when I'm between contracts and it's taking too long to find new work in my chosen field, I'm certainly prepared to do just about anything to bring some cash in, and have, indeed, done minimum wage jobs. Not for any longer than I can help, certainly, but when there's no alternative."
"Back to 303 Squadron. I'm not ""persecuting"" any Eastern Europeans! That's rather hard to do from my desk in the north of England! I don't know any (I'm sure they're very nice though) But I'll let that pass as the sort of auto-comment that socialist word-generators generally give when people disagree with them. I'm just engaging in sensible debate - that an influx of new migrants will hit the UK taxpayer hard; a fact agreed by senior figures responsible for budgetting our future public sector resources.
It's just you paint a very romantic picture of your good socialist comrades taking on the Eastern Bloc oppressors, then turning to us like eager puppy dogs for their reward. But as you say ""instead of welcoming them & apologising for leaving them under Stalin all you hear is complaints from their working class brothers."" Are you reading from the communist manifesto, the Ragged Trouserd Philanthropist or the writings of Lenin, because your views and words really belong in a museum. Who are their working class brothers anyway? Name one!
I don't blame them for wanting to come. If I was them I'd be wanting to come over here too. Benefits and free healthcare if the job goes pear shaped - yes please! So I've got no problems with them - I just don't want them here on our over populated little island adding to my council tax bill.
Thanks for listening."
"Look Brendan, it's all very well to crow on about this but the problem lies with the vast disparity between the economies, wages and cost of living in countries such as Romania/Bulgaria compared to the much larger and more mature economies of the UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain.
I don't think the cost of living in Romania is at all relevant here; after all, the Romanians we're talking about are (temporarily, but by assumption they don't have capital sufficient to lose money doing it for very long) living in Britain, on British wages and paying British prices for goods which, whilst doubtless mostly imported from China in the first place, are being sold just as much to Britons in British shops.
The issue, as it's been with every past concern about immigrants, is that Britons are encountering people who are used to a standard of living they don't accept, who consider it reasonable to live in multiple-occupation housing as adults, never to dine out, not to drive and seldom to travel ... and accordingly whose idea of a living wage is vastly lower than people who assume they've a right to a mortgage and a couple of foreign holidays a year.
And the worry is that, this time as didn't happen the last N times, the consensus will change; living as a single person in a two-bedroom house will be an oddity requiring a trust fund.
I need to read more Victorian economic literature, clearly, and try to get a more exact idea of what it was that defeated Marx."
Who cares if many newly-arrived Eastern Europeans live in crowded substandard accommodation and earn a pittance? After all, it�s good for the economy! Come on, everybody chant in a robotic monotone: �It�s good for the economy! It�s good for the economy!�. Btw, Handithebush, I guess that more people on benefit would get off their arses and get work if it made financial sense for them to do so. I know a girl who used to be on the dole and as such she had her rent paid for by the council. She recently found a job paid at or near the minimum wage, lost the rent allowance from the Council and now has to pay the �450 a month rent from her very meagre income; in other words her standard of living is worse in employment than it used to be when she was on the dole... Ain�t that completely absurd?
I agree. It is utterly senseless the amount of money we waste on providing housing benefit for people who are quite capable of doing a days work. If you placed a time limit on how long someone could claim benefit they would be forced to find work, and there would be no reason for employers to scour eastern Europe for workers when we have people sitting on the dole in the UK. You could then satisfy the little Englanders who don�t want people who look a bit swarthy, or have names ending in �ski living on this sceptred isle, and there would be more money to fund the kind of infrastructure and skills investment this country needs to stay in the vanguard of the first world. Everyones a winner.
"handinthebush
Apologies - had to go out to post some letters.
I don't have a doctorate in economics but the answer to your shops-labour question is a relatively straightforward supply-demand thing with a dash of expectations thrown in.
BTW, if the rules are enforced properly, the shops in your example wouldn't be allowed to profiteer through lack of competition, hence the reason why we have a Monopolies & Mergers Commission (who seem to have been asleep for many years - no doubt infiltrated by those with vested interests).
Anyhow, just like you mention the same number of people distributed a different way, the amount of wealth the UK generates is relatively finite (within shorter time scales) and is distributed among the population. At the moment we have unemployment AND job vacancies which means there are, inevitably, some jobs where skills are in short supply but also some jobs which don't pay enough to attract people to apply for them. The answer? Pay more and train people. We just have to accept that we need to pay more for services while stopping profiteering (our mate Brendan alludes to this, perhaps as a sop, but hasn't got the formula right). Have you ever phoned a call centre and got crap service? That's because employers don't pay enough and don't train enough. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Ultimately the example you give in terms of immigration is bad for labour because employers don't pass on the benefit. For example, if a widget manufacturer employs cheaper labour, his overall cost goes down. However, if he doesn't pass on the saving to his customer, he pockets the additional profit thus exploiting his labour and increasing the wealth gap. The only way to fight this is to organise workforces and use collective power (unionise them) - but be fair in the process i.e. we can't return to the British Leyland days of people sleeping on night shifts and being protected by shop stewards. It's all about balance. Since the Thatcher years however, that balance has shifted too far the other way.
AntonioV makes a very valid point above too. Again, we need to pay for our services and reward good work while allowing employers to sack genuine spongers.
Thanks for listening. Help me get elected and I'll sort them out.
----------------------------------
fivemack
That's the point really. They are prepared to slog it and live cheap in a cramped work-house style while they save and take their [relative] fortune back to Romania. Or work themselves out of the poverty trap and stay here [if they geunuinely think it's better here]. Most UK citizens aren't prepared to slog it and live cheap in cramped work-house style conditions all of our lives - but the effect drags us down that road."
"Here's an anecdotal tale that happened to a mate of mine. He's an artist. Approached by the council of a large Northern city he agreed to help set up a small art and craft market in the city centre selling quality hand made goods from sources around this country. Just like farmers markets but with artists .
The market went well and he and the others made a reasonable and steady living. The council got further funding and sent representatives all around Europe to find other crafts people and artists. Partially subsidised , these Europeans arrived and suddenly the market had grown to an epic size.
The problem was that most of these people weren't even making their own stuff. The market extended to food. the French bread was made in the city and sold as French bread . The Jewellery was made in China and brought via Poland and they were claiming it was hand made. A lot of tat started turning up and suddenly my mates takings dropped because there were too many people selling too much stuff and it devalued the original products were there.
If the bread is made in this country why did the council not help a local unemployed person to set up a business selling good quality bread on the market ? Why go off all over Europe to find someone else to sell a British made product?
Beggars belief."
Another bleeding heart. These people never say how many this country should let in, one million, two million, please tell us. And they do get benefits, thats the reason they come here. How many leaders of these countries where these migrants come from, encourage all the bad apples to come here, it would even pay to give them their passage money. In 50 years we may have no England. The English people will be swallowed up with other cultures. Sooner we dump that farce the Common Market, then we may be saved from people who are out to ruin Old England.
Wader what is English? I'm Scot's, your ancestry is Saxon, Roman, Norman, French, God knows what else, your Royal Family is German, Dook of Edinburgh a Greek asslum seeker going to get rid of that scrounger, come on give us a break.
Wader, nobody forced Britain to join the Common Market. Actually, back in the 60s, General De Gaulle was fiercely opposed to Britain�s being allowed in. More recently, Britain chose to open its doors to workers from new EU member states, it didn�t have to... And Britain is now the main cheerleader for Turkey�s entry into the EU! (apart from the US, of course...) So blame it on Blighty, mate, not on Johnny Foreigner!
Doow I don't give a toss about the royal family. I can tell you what English is people who have lived and died here for hundreds of years. And I may add there are more Scots in England than in Scotland, thats how much they dislike the English. Get a hold of yourself, trying getting out a bit more.
"qwertyuiop - ""I would like to ask the people who post here saying that unlimited immigration is OK and low wages are OK, are THEY prepared to work for �5.05 an hour?""
Maybe you should ask Brendan Barber what he's earning, and if he'd be happy if he was replaced by an eastern European at half the salary. It's always the same with the scum which floats to the top of our society, whether it's Tory scum or Labour scum, or CIB scum or TUC scum - provided they're sitting comfortably, the rest of us can go to hell."
"rowthorn, I don't mean to sound hard-hearted, but would it be fair to summarise your friend's complaint as being that, given the choice and their ready availability, people were buying products other than his from the market? Presumably the shoppers knew what they wanted and are entitled to buy what they want to there.
I can see that there's more to it than that; the character of the market -- and, thus, the kind of thing people went there to buy -- seems to have changed, but ultimately you've got people buying and selling what they want to. Isn't that's what markets are supposed to be for?
The problem may lie, I suspect, in the fact the council were involved in funding and running the show. If your friend and his other producers of arts and crafts had organised the enterprise themselves, they'd have been in more control of who did and who didn't get a pitch there. While I'm not sure exactly how our local farmers' market is run, I'm pretty sure that, while the local council certainly encourages it, it's an independent enterprise.
http://notsaussure.wordpress.com/"
"ginge:""If people really want to stop Bulgarian and Romanian citizens coming to this country and taking advantage of the higher wages that it offers, maybe they'd be happy to stop buying property in these same countries, taking advantage of low property prices in order to make huge profits on resale. Or does it only work one way?""
Idiot. The people buying properties overseas are *not* the same people who will be disadvantaged by an influx of cheap foreign labour: They are the people who will be *enriched* by such an influx."
"Notsaussure: Some good points there. My problem is that the market was built on the promise of good quality British hand made goods. It now looks the same as anywhere else selling cheap tack . Also there was a crossover point when shoppers were confused as to what was craft and what was facsimile. - The same argument goes for the later issue of the bread.
Real art , craft and food can remind people they are more than just units of consumption - it's a two way process, and part of that is based in the good faith of the shopper. There is something very deceitful about tricking people in this area. Anyway, why allow everything to be reduced everything to the lowest common denominator when "" Poundland precinct"" already caters for this kind of product? Especially when the council spent yours and my money to create relief from this kind of place.
Thanks for thinking about this."
"It is so much easier to blame someone else, so let's blame the immigrants. The real problem is us. Our actions do not match up to much of the rhetoric I see here.
We are all only too happy to get cheaper goods. We close our eyes to the reality of where they come from - they use cheaper sources of labour than are available in unionized Britain. If that labour is off-shore, we complain about UK manufacturing capabity being lost, and we blame the greed of big business. If that labour is on-shore, we complain about immigrants ""taking"" the jobs that were really available to any who wanted to compete for them. Either way the ""true British"" complain the jobs are no longer available to them.
Meanwhile we (the consumer majority) carry on buying the nice cheap watches, and fail to change our behaviour to match our rhetoric. Some companies tried to make a go of buying British and making in Britain, trying to support the higher costs through premium quality and hence premium prices. They have generally failed to manage to continue that. Why? Because we, the great British public, did not support them, and because the premium quality bit was a myth.
So we should stop blaming everyone else and take a good hard look at ourselves. If everyone were willing to pay the extra then we would not be having this discussion - manufacturing would stay in Britain and the jobs would be well paid, and available for all (immigrants included). But it seems most here want to blame the immigrants without facing up to their own actions.
When we are 100% sure that our integrity is all lined up with our professed beliefs, maybe we can be justified in lobbing stones at others."
"Very thought provoking Enbee :
When the quality is there, as is the case of food and art and craft, why encourage its replacement with inferior imported goods . Like I said in the case of goods which would perish during import : why bring someone all the way from France to sell bread made in a British bakery, and pretend its French made bread ? Surely there an Ecological cost here.
Did you also know that when the continental markets roll into town the local traders are often displaced from their usual pitches and relegated to some dark corner of the market place.
Also the overseas traders are subsidised by funding often raised from the markets department-Ie the rent of stalls by English traders. That is a bit of a kick in the teeth if you are actually paying for the pitch of someone who is in competition with you."
"How many Romanians are there left to come? The main influx of Romanians was in the nineties and early years of this century, when they came as asylum seekers.
When I stayed at a hotel in London for six weeks back in 2000 all the staff were Romanian with the exception of the cashier (from India) and the night supervisor (long term Polish immigrant).
The influx of Poles has presumably been because the economy was expanding. The truth is that there has been massive immigration into the UK over the last ten years or so, and this has been combined with record employment.
As for absurd property prices these are mainly because of draconian planning laws that stop sufficient low income housing being built."
"[[ Romanians left to come ]]
The Home Office stats on origins of asylum seekers at
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb1406.pdf
suggest that 9335 Romanians requested asylum between 1997 and 2006; of those, 9125 were refused asylum. This is clearly not a major source of legally-working migrants; illegally-working migrants are a different issue.
The hotels I've stayed in recently in England have nearly all appeared to have almost exclusively Polish non-customer-facing staff."
So I hope.
However, the Czech Republic has no politicians worth Havel's cigarette ash. The country has recently had a near miss of a political coup engineered by a security company. Extremist parties are unchallenged, and people are already sick of what passes for democracy and have absented themselves from any notion of social responsibility. Happy xmas!
".
A great man who even after he left office spent his time promoting human rights across the world - that along with a belief in a united Europe and those nations working in peace and harmony for the good of all would be something Mr Cameron would be wise to learn from - in particular his respect for human rights and the reasons he spent his life trying to ensure they were promoted and accepted by all.
For many he epitomised that dawning of a new era from the days of the velvet revolution onwards and like Walensa gave the rest of the world the courage to fight for what was right too - a courage we may need to draw upon again soon enough as it seems we are moving backwards in time rather than making any progress forwards and funnily enough at the same time having our human rights threatened too in many different ways. Yes we may have a need for a new generation of Walensa' and Havel's soon enough if things carry on the way they are going. Time will tell."
"Amid today's euro(pean) negativism, Havel's legacy is all the more instructive.
Havel sought above all freedom - originally for some musicians and then finally for his whole nation.
He demanded that people should be free from fear.
That they should be free to love rather than hate.
Those European politicians that have sought, during the last two decades, to create a Europe as powerful as the United States with a political unity matching that of the United States, have done so out of fear rather than out of love.
That is why Europe has failed (so far). And that is why - even more worringly - there is more and more hate.
It's time for a complete revamp - another velvet revolution - this time for the whole of Europe.."
Neo-liberal suck up.
"No tribute can rival Havel's own word's:
""Socialism and capitalism have long since been beside the point. The task is one of resisting vigilantly the irrational momentum of anonymous, impersonal and inhuman power - the power of ideologies, systems, apparat, bureaucracy, artificial language and political slogans. We must resist their complex and wholly alienating pressure, whether it takes the form of consumption, advertising, repression, technology or cliché. We must draw our standards from the natural world, not be ashamed that we are capable of love, friendship, solidarity, sympathy and tolerance: we must set these fundamental dimensions of our humanity free from their private exile and accept them as the only genuine starting point of meaningful human community""
His kindred spirits are in the Occupy movement."
"""Socialism and capitalism have long since been beside the point.""
Well, socialism dlisappeared but capitalism is still here, and captalism is still very much the problem."
"Havel was a decent enough man and the kind of leader I could respect (and there are precious few of those) but he did have one small stain on his record.
He was a big fan of Frank Zappa and in 1990 invited FZ to become a consultant for trade, cultural matters and tourism on behalf of Czechoslovakia. The US government got wind of this and pressured Havel into dumping Zappa from this rôle. Secretary of State, James Baker diverted his plane to Prague and told Havel: ""You can do business with the United States or you can do business with Frank Zappa.""
This obviously says more about the USA than Havel but it was sad to see a man of such fine principals knuckle under."
"The overwhelming sycophancy shown to Havel in these eulogies is unfair, especially toward the people i.e. Czechs and Slovaks who have been devastated by his anti-popular regimes' policies. It is regrettable that the opinions of the overwhelming majority of Czechs and Slovaks who opposed this man have been shut out of the western mass media with its disingenuous attempts to build up Havel as some kind of prophet. In these eulogies, there is an absence of coverage of the criticism Havel received for seditious and what many believe to have been treasonous activities during the 1970s and 1980s for which he received punishments by Czechoslovakia's legal system. The regime change that he supported in Nov-Dec 1989 amounted to a betrayal of the people, resulting in the tyrannical imposition of a capitalist system on Czechoslovakia even though the vast majority of the people in fact favored a renewed, reformed socialism. His idealist, anti-communist dogmas are accepted as an immutable truth even though large numbers of people disagree with him, debates which westerners have not been exposed to by the mass media. The policies enacted by the regime that Havel helped to create in 1989-1990 once and for all discredited all of his political and literary work. As Czechoslovakian shcolar H. Chafro explains, the imposition of Havel's favoured system on the country was catastrophic, resulting in mass unemployment, crippling debt, the looting of the economy by oligarchs, and so forth. On every occasion, Havel has marched in step with the NATO and American imperialists, shown by his support for the war against Iraq, and most notoriously with his support of the aggression against Slavic brothers by NATO in Yugoslavia in 1999.
This is from the Czechoslovakian newspaper Rude Pravo, which discusses Havel's bourgeois background and which exposes his Charter 77's ties with foreign intelligence networks via Radio Free Europe:"
"There are a lot of great Czechoslovakian authors, etc, who have taken part in positive political activities that focus on peace and social progress, unlike what Havel did. Yet, the mass media engages in this worship of Havel as though he is the country's finest playwright, when in fact Czechoslovakia has produced far more talented and successful authors such as Marie Pujmanova than the mediocrity of Havel.
This is a summary of literature in Czechoslovakia, in the 40s and 50s, which we in the West unfortunately have little knowledge about because of how they were not palatable to imperialism's political interests:"
Well, he certainly didn't seem to have much trouble with the biggest tyranny on earth, capitalism.
"It's interesting that two neocons, Havel and Hitchens, should both die as the last US forces leave Iraq in the hands of Iran.
Vaclav Havel, son of a dynasty of landowners and capitalists who grew up among servants and governesses, wasn't an enemy of communism because of a love of freedom but because of a love of the money he once had in abundance without working for it. In fact, Havel saw nothing wrong with suspending parliament and pushing through anti-democratic laws once he was in power, laws that not only sold off his country's national wealth to his foreign backers at fire-sale prices but allowed aristocrats of the Austro-Hungarian empire and their heirs, including himself, to regain possession of their lands and expropriate those who now lived on them, sending many into destitution.
Havel never ceased to use his new power to turn the clock back to 1918, passing a law that made not only the advocacy of communism, but Marxism itself punishable with long prison terms.
Havel peddled the neocon lie that Saddam was tied in to 9/11, feeding the fabrication that Mohammed Atta met an Iraqi agent in Prague into the neocon ""stovepipe,"" the intel-fabrication network set up by Rumsfeld to provide excuses for invading Iraq.
Havel rammed Yank missiles down Czechs' throats despite widespread popular opposition.
Vaclav Havel died, like Christopher Hitchens, a much-despised and discredited man, and the efforts of the corporate media to paint him as a latter-day saint will never convince his countrymen that he was anything but a corrupt Yank puppet."
"Response to savale, 19 December 2011 12:05am
""His kindred spirits are in the Occupy movement.""
LOL. Havel was a millionaire who hated the working class. He would have locked them up for 8 years for inciting ""class hatred."""
"""All Europeans, Czechs as well as British, belong to relatively small nation states which share an interlocked global destiny...""
Shame the Slovaks were not considered quite European enough to share in the interlocked global destiny, eh?
His politics were neo-liberal and nationalist, as it turned out. Very ugly. He will not be missed."
"The Guardian is having it both ways on Europe these days. Commissioning pieces by Deborah Orr and Simon Jenkins that trash Europe and take the exact line of attack as the Daily Mail, Orr: Europe is a failed superstate.
And now here come the panegyrics to Mr Havel and suddenly the dissolution of the form communist bloc and the creation of a the euro zone is a noble enterprise.
At least try and be consistent."
"Response to Klement, 19 December 2011 2:40am
Ah, we knew it would not be long before a Stalinist reared his head here to give the alternative Communism-is-wonderful line.
Rude Pravo was of course the mouthpiece of the Communist dictatorship and wasn't it so typical that they persecuted Havel because he happened to be the son of a Bourgeois."
"Response to RedScot, 19 December 2011 6:46am
The Slovaks wanted out. That was not down to Havel. He tried to hold this artificial state together for too long- that was his one mistake with the Slovaks"
"Response to Bananistan, 19 December 2011 6:20am
Havel was a millionaire
No he wasn't
who hated the working class.
No he didn't. No evidence offered because of course there isn't any
He would have locked them up for 8 years for inciting ""class hatred.""
Pure guessing and deeply unpleasant. Again, no evidence offered because there isn't any
But other than that expression of your own deeply held prejudices and hatreds, a most useful contribution to this debate. Thank you. Do please feel free to post again.
But please be prepared for others to point out the venom in your words"
"The only world leader I have ever felt moved to paint.
Thank you Vaclav."
So often politicians disappoint. Occasionally one stands out from the crowd and this was certainly true of Vaclav Havel. While it looks inveitable with the benefit of hindsight the Velvet Revolution was one of the most remarkable phenomena of my lifetime and Vaclav Havel was the man who epitomised all that was good and noble in it.
"A great man.
When you look at that generation of leaders - Gorbachev, Walesa, Havel (sorry, I can't include the Pope) - and think of the generation that preceded them (Willy Brandt etc) you have to wonder what has happened to politicians today. Who will we remember in 20 years' time - Osborne? Berlusconi? Clegg? No wonder our economies are all screwed."
"Response to Keo2008, 19 December 2011 7:38am
You would show up eventually of course, wherever there is a neoliberal warmongering Yank puppet to defend.
Please disprove the following or shut up about Havel:


The Nazis, to whom Neville Chamberlain gifted Czechoslovakia, took Barrandov away from the Havels. 10 years later, Barrandov was nationalized by the communist government. There was no place for multimillionaires in luxury villas copied from Hollywood (where Havel's dad used to go to import Yank films) in a socialist country. Vaclav Jr., with the help of his mentor the USA, took it all back:


Now tell me again that Vaclav Jr. wasn't a millionaire. Not only was a millionaire, he was an oligarch, in the strictest sense of the term, i.e. someone who appropriates huge amounts of public wealth for pennies. Except Vaclav Jr. got it for free."
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"Response to Klement, 19 December 2011 2:40am
Surname Gottwald by any chance?"
lol_AT_ sociliats Guadrianista commenters BTL slagging this guy off - truly pathetic.
"Response to cymrojenkins, 19 December 2011 8:46am
""So often politicians disappoint. Occasionally one stands out from the crowd and this was certainly true of Vaclav Havel.""
The Czechs would beg to disagree, but what do they know, right?"
"Response to Bananistan, 19 December 2011 8:59am
Ah yes, when in doubt always resort to the Ad Hominem attack.
As your source so rightly points out, Havel's parents had all their wealth and property confiscated by the Communists.
Therefore he wasn't a millionnaire- his parents were, but that's not what you argued.
Later on their property, but not their wealth was given to...wait for it...Havel's children.
So again, Havel wasn't a millionnaire.
But of course trust the death of a great man like Havel to bring out the Stalinists and other supporters of brutal dictatorships such as your good self.
(You see two can play at that particular game).
Whilst we are at it, do remind us how many votes your friends in the Czech Communist Party got in the last elections? (Clue: It was less than 12%).
For reasons best known to themselves, the good people of the Czech Republic seem to have rejected Communist tyranny in favour of capitalist democracy."
Though a Czech Green party member, Havel was an excoriating critic of global warming describing it as “a metaphysical ideology with nothing to do with the natural sciences.” He dismissed the IPCC as “a neo-political body; a non-government organization of green flavor. It is neither a scientific institution nor a balanced forum of climate scientists.”
"Response to Bananistan, 19 December 2011 9:20am
I took the trouble to read your article. It is an interview with an academic Robert Buchar, but he is not a Professor of History or politics, but of film. He puts forward a fantastic conspiracy theory that Charter 77 and indeed all the dissidents of Eastern Europe were actually controlled by the KGB. Although he claims that Charter 77 was funded by the USA (which seems very odd if his KGB control theory is correct), he offers no references or sources for his figures. I had a trawl through the Internet and could not find a single reference to any external funding for Charter 77.
Buchar's conspiracy theories get even more hilarious when he explains why Havel was repeatedly imprisoned if the KGB were building him up as a future puppet ruler. Oh yes says Buchar, he was imprisoned, but never in the toughest prisons, so that somehow ""proves"" it was all part of a clever game by the KGB which Havel himself went along with.
He goes onto to claim that even now the KGB manipulates and controls states, political parties and terrorists all over the world. It is in fact an anti-Communist conspiracy theory- a point that you, laughably, seem to have missed completely. You see Buchar thinks Havel always was a KGB agent working for the success of Communism!
And so it goes on. The fact that you can actually believe such a laughable conspiracy theory says it all about your own naivite."
"RIP Vaclav Havel - a writer, humanist, internationalist, dissident who gave inspiration to many around the world.
Many of the comments on this blog and Timothy Garton-Ash's are indecent and degrading, polluting what should be a deathbed tribute.
I can understand and empathise with the comments of Czechs and Slovaks and admit to knowing too little of their countries' recent politics. But the values for which Havel is praised by this editorial - and revered by so many outside the Czech Republic and Slovakia - are universal human qualities sadly missing in today's political caste.
He was one of a generation of European politicians who helped bring about profound changes in their own countries that inspired people elsewhere. That breed is sadly lacking nowadays, as any of the poisonous blogs on CIF about Europe will attest.
I'm not all for nostalgia. But it's better than the cynicism and bitterness of the CIF sneerocracy."
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"Response to JamesCameron, 19 December 2011 10:04am
""Though a Czech Green party member, Havel was an excoriating critic of global warming""
A double-dealing scoundrel to the last."
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"Response to Bananistan, 19 December 2011 10:39am
Yes, and I pointed out that the article (and his films) argue that Havel was all along working for the KGB to keep Czechoslovakia Communist.
But you believe what you want to believe. I might point out to spome of your fellow ""Left-wing"" posters that you believe that Havel, far from being a neo-Imperialist, was working all along for the KGB.
Wonderful stuff conspiracy theories."
"Response to liberalexpat, 19 December 2011 10:41am
This was covered on the TV news."
"Response to Keo2008, 19 December 2011 10:52am
Yes, and the Guardian has a good obit - but there's precious little otherwise in the print media, which has more space.
CIF's cultural offerings concern celebrity cookbooks, porridge and Biggles.
Like I said, instead of trying to score points, go and listen to one of her CDs - it could calm you down."
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"Response to JamesCameron, 19 December 2011 10:04am
What's your source for this quote James?
“a metaphysical ideology with nothing to do with the natural sciences.”
Are you mixing him up with Vaclav Klaus, the first Czech Prime Minster and second Czech President who, unlike Havel, is a skeptic in regard to anthropogenic climate change?
Havel has a record for supporting action to address anthropogenic climate change."
"Response to Klement, 19 December 2011 2:40am

Without that interventon I would now be dead at the bottom of some mass grave. And I am a Slavic brother too. You expose yourself not as someone who cares for ""Slavic brothers"" but for oligarchies of Balkan dictators. You believe Milosevic was some principled socialist. But he presided over the wildest privatisation in the history of the Balkans, whic included a variety of Western and Eastern partners and supporters (including the UK government). First protests against him were organised by factory worker syndicates in Kosovo.
We need more Havels less Milosevics, please."
"Vaclav Havel was a great statesman. At the beginning of his time in office he wanted to grant the expelled Sudeten Germans double citizenship and the right to return back home.
But then Czech communists and a large part of his fellow countrymen stopped him."
"Response to Keo2008, 19 December 2011 10:51am

Keo old chap you are quite lost - the Final Triumph of Socialism is imminent! Capitalism is crumbling before our eyes - the Party merely conducted a tactical withdrawal to lure the exploiters into their death-ambush! Agent Havel will be posthumously awarded the Order of Lenin for his brilliant sabotage work in service of the toiling masses!"
"Response to Klement, 19 December 2011 2:40am
And one more thing. Is racial solidarity the most important thing to you? Are Chechs obliged to always side with ""Slavic brothers"" against non-Slavic people, no matter if they are right or wrong? Anyway, due to historical circumstances and living side by side, ex-Yugoslav Slavs and Albanians are genetically closer to each other than to Chechs. The kind of racist reasoning you propose is what we have been trying to get away from since the 1990s genocide."
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"Response to alecw, 19 December 2011 12:26pm
Well, they have been parroting Chomsky, who started the trend in 1990."
hi..?
"JamesCameron
As Savale points out, you have your president Vaclavs mixed up. It's Klaus who is the anti-climate-change polemicist. It's also Klaus that's the neo-lib economic theory enthusiast.
Emann
""The country has recently had a near miss of a political coup engineered by a security company.""
Yes, that was deeply worrying and deeply silly. But the party concerned VV, will be wiped out in the next election,
"" Extremist parties are unchallenged,""
That's not really true. Or rather, the basic problem of Czech politics is not extremism, but a constant electoral stalemate between the centre right (ODS) and centre left (CSSD) coupled with a cynicism born of systemic corruption scandals on both sides."
"Response to Bertxin, 19 December 2011 3:36am
A great man has died. You could try and show a little respect for the Czech people in your posts."
"Response to JamesCameron, 19 December 2011 10:04am
I think you are mixing up your Vaclavs. Don't you mean Klaus?"
"Response to sarka, 19 December 2011 1:45pm
""Deeply silly""? Were the company Haliburton, or BP, I can't imagine you getting away with that on the Guardian's pages.
Plus, more pro-Russian sentiments from the Czech Republic's best-known fifth-columnist:
http://www.praguepost.com/news/11407-klaus-supports-medvedev.html
Most business and property is in foreign hands, and Klaus is beckoning a gangster state into the country?
The CR's in deep hovno, and centre cannot hold. Havel's death removes one ore voice of dissent against the current regime."
"Response to EMann, 19 December 2011 4:59pm
Well, the Prague Post article about Klaus welcoming Medvedev is mostly politics because the Czech government is looking for foreign expertise to help with the upgrading and maintenance of its nuclear power plants.
The general consensus among Czechs I've spoken to today is that Havel was an admirable character, one who probably stayed too long in the Castle, one who was too much of an idealist but was on the side of the good.
I rather think the centre can hold in the CR but that centre is deeply compromised by corruption - especially the VV and TOP 09, the two new parties that were formed to fight last year's elections. The VV, in particular, is seen as a joke since it stood as an anti-corruption party with the figurehead of Radek Jon, a journalist who produced a series of anti-corruption pieces, but it is financed by the deeply unpleasant Napoleon look-a-like Vit Barta."
"Response to windguy, 19 December 2011 1:46pm
You may believe that he was a great man, but I don't think he was. How about showing some respect for freedom of opinion."
Hmm a good Czech friend, a highly intelligent history graduate who was there through the thick and the thin finds it very difficult to find a word of praise for Havel. He was just a figure head who profited from being in the right place at the right time and jumped on the bandwagon.
"Havel could have done what most intellectuals like him would have been sorely tempted to do after 1989 - and simply enjoyed his celebrity status, at no risk to his health or his standing among his countrymen. But he choose the hard path, and got little thanks for it. This was beautifully summed up by fellow Charter 77 member, Martin Palous, who was quoted in your excellent obituary yesterday as saying:
""Havel was the man who was able to stage this miracle play. The sacrifice was to cast himself in the main role."""
VV was the archetypical little Mittle Europa Bourgeois who missed out supporting the Nazis, but found a new lease of life with taking revenge on the commies and sucking up to the Yankee neocons. Good riddance but RIP.
"Interesting self-disclosure, especially as it accompanies an inflammatory comment implying that critics of ACTA are 'hysterical'.
What is the Guardian's (and specifically the editors) point of view on ACTA?



This is plainly false, as there is nothing stopping individual countries from writing up and implementing their own copyright laws (rather than through an international treaty that was undemocratically negotiated and written in secret and is making progress towards implementation without any public discourse.
Does the above quote represent the point of view of the Guardian as well?



Eh, wait a moment that's putting a very big spin on things, labeling people opposed to ACTA as freeloaders that want to download movies/music without paying.
Correct on the points regarding censorship and privacy, those are the core issues, but the people opposing ACTA are, by and large, not in favor of copyright infringement/piracy; to label them as such is a dishonest smear."
In London on Saturday four people stood around and nobody listened to them.
"I have heard next to nothing about people here in the UK protesting this treaty, it barely makes national news apart from when there are medium to large scale protests regarding it in other countries and even then very little detail is given regarding what the treaty is about.
This lack of national knowledge to something the government/Big Brother seems to be very keen on ratifying is scary.
As I understood things the internet was meant to be free from censorship and restrictions, this treaty and other proposals that have been rejected by other countries that were similar to it, would go against the basic tenets of that. And as a few people I have spoken to have pointed out, censorship on the internet is a flaw and flaws are routed around. This treaty and others like it would have a devestating effect, in the short term, in the long term however it would lose it's impact as people go back to using ip addresses instead of URL's... especially those controlled by countries that have signed ACTA and other legislation like it... or taking more drastic action and setting up their own version of the internet like the CCC want to do with their propposed satelite launch"
"Response to R042, 13 February 2012 9:06am
Sorry, but I thoroughly dispute that. Whilst the turnout was less that I would like there were several hundred people protesting in London on the 11th. However, given that the UK media has a vested interest in the likes of ACTA it is typical of them to either outright ignore or cover disparagingly any discussion of it in the UK."
"Essentially, a persistent and ongoing failure to innovate by the copyright holders.
Until they are disabused of their inertia, we will see more and more of these edicts coming down the line. ACTA is far from the final destination, merely the next stop on the line.
My MP has not deigned to respond to my concerns, since I wrote to him 3 weeks ago. You work for us right?!
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/02/peter-sunde/"
Really Guardian I'm surprised and disappointed. I had imagined that you would stand against an unelected cabal who would work in isolation from democracy,who would essentially have ultimate power over the flow of communication and serve only the interest of large organisations. Is it so surprising that a lot of people would feel passionately about this? Obviously everyone who protested against this around the world did so because they want to protect their own ability to download stuff for free. Clearly anyone who is concerned needn't worry. Organisations like News International (and others with an interest in ACTA) have proven time and time again that they are trustworthy and will always act in the best interest of humanity. Of course we should hand them ultimate power over communication on a plate, what do we have to worry about? What, do we think that a small group of organisations controlling information to serve their own interest will lead to a new dark age? How silly! Clearly the millions dying of disease in Africa and those trying to help them have no cause for worry either and Dr Unni Karunakara, the president of Medecins Sans Frontieres was mistaken when he sent this letter to the Indian Prime Minister as were the concerns raised by Oxfam about the same issue. Yes, lets have a balanced debate, lets not label all the protesters as doing so because we want free stuff.
"_AT_Topperfalkon,
This is no new thing. Years ago I travelled from the west country 3 or 4 times to join thousands of people protesting against the CJA in the early 90s. when we got home late evening each time and turned on the telly, not even a 5 second mention on any of the channels.
This newspaper is my choice as a reliable news source, and I find myself very worried at its' stance on this issue. To label those of us that are concerned about net neutrality as being worried about the free movies and music we won't be able to download is disingenuous in the extreme.
Personally I want the internet to be able to be used by anyone for anything. If a user breaks a law, then prosecute him/her. The last thing any of us want is global businesses deciding how the internet should be policed, because their interests are only their own and that of their bottom line. (Which has increased year on year for at least the length of time that they have been blaming the internet for them losing money)"
You would have thought the EU technocrats would have realised by now the folly of foisting unwanted legislation on the different member states. I'm pro-Europe in general, but there is a reason that we're not all one country, and laws such as these undermine the good work that the EU can do.
Freetards unite!
"ACTA is a terrible idea - the internet works pretty bloody well the way it is at the moment - The idea of letting government/big business etc stifle it for their own agenda, well that is just diabolical.
Part of my view is that internet is revolutionising the way we do everything, it can be likened to giant tidal wave, you either learn new ways of doing things, such as business/politics/communicating (surf the wave) or it will wash you away.
However ACTA is typical big business/big government approach, which choose to spend money and time potentially destroying something that is fantastic and turning it into a castrated pseudo version of what we currently have - so basically for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many... rather than using that energy to be truly innovative.
It is a shame Guardian has an agenda on this, and therefore won't cover it with the same dogged vigour as it might normally have done. Facts maybe sacred, but in a forest of stories, the wood can easily be hidden & unseen for the trees.
I pray (and I am not a praying man) that this doesn't get ratified in June."
"While i don't condone Anonymous hacking websites and now understand why they do it. Peaceful, legitimate protests against ACTA across the UK, were more or less ignored by the UK media. Maybe it takes something more radical these days to get the attention of traditional media?
Recently the media have been going on about how a free press is essential to any democratic society, well it is time the press realised that if they want to use that as a reason for not having strong regulations, then they have a duty and a responsibility to report on things like these ACTA protests. I mean, i can't remember the last time that people from across the whole of the EU co-ordinated protests against a single piece of EU legislation. It was democracy in action in the EU and they ignored us. Shame on them!"
"Post 1/2
3 Feb, 2012: “Act on Acta now if you care about democracy and free speech,” The Guardian, says.
Clearly the Guardian, nor most other mainstream newspapers in the UK do not care about democracy and free speech.
Seriously, what exactly is the excuse here? We’re so tied up in criticising the democracy in the Middle East, and yet you’re all still standing by some sort of blanket over the news on certain issues. With pretty much all of them, it’s ACTA. With the BBC, it’s even stretched to the NHS. How exactly is this even justifiable? How are UK newspapers justifying this? It’s actually breaking my heart here.
Over 200 protests throughout Europe and America, and there are reports that over 25,000 people were marching in Germany alone. 25,000. Around 16,000 in Munich. Thousands more all over the globe.
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/13/us-europe-protest-acta-idUSTRE81A0I120120213
And hey, I’m not going to pretend that there isn’t misinformation rife, but why exactly do you all think that is? Why is it so hard for you to do your jobs and report to us accurately? Why is it so hard for you to research and report facts? Why is it you can have up to date accurate information up about celebrities and other stories within hours, but it takes you TWO DAYS to bring people up to date on this? I’m not even going to pretend that this article covers everything people need to know.
Also:

You absolutely disgust me. There are a few choice words I can say about this, but for the sake of civility, I won’t. There are many, MANY legitimate reasons that people were out there protesting this issue. A little research would have made it crystal clear, but for some reason, you’ve chosen to forgo that when you wrote this slanderous rubbish.
Poland halted ratification because, in the words of their Prime Minister, Donald Tusk: “I'm starting to realize that this debate can revise the traditional perception of property rights.”
> http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Tusk-Zawieszamy-proces-ratyfikacji-ACTA-2481998.html&usg=ALkJrhhsHApwLlGlyXWeVpAu8HmButw78Q
Slovenia's ambassador apologizes to her children and her nation for signing ACTA. Want to know why she signed? Her own words: “I signed ACTA out of civic carelessness, because I did not pay enough attention.”
> http://thenextweb.com/eu/2012/02/03/slovenias-ambassador-to-japan-issued-this-incredible-apology-for-signing-acta/?awesm=tnw.to_1DAeP&utm_campaign=social+media&utm_medium=share+button&utm_source=Twitter&utm_content=Slovenia%27s+Ambassador+to+Japan+issued+this+incredible+apology+for+signing+ACTA
The Romanian Prime Minister admitted he had no idea why Romania signed ACTA. And then he resigned.
> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120205/14043517663/romanian-prime-minister-admits-he-has-no-idea-why-romania-signed-acta.shtml
> http://www.bucharestherald.ro/politics/34-politics/30224-emil-boc-resigns-ctlin-predoiu-interim-pm
The Czech Government have also suspended ratification.
> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120206/10005617669/czech-government-suspends-acta-ratification.shtml
Why, may you ask? Well, I don’t know.
Here’s some links for people to check out to find out why ACTA is still currently a threat in its FINAL FORM.
> http://www.laquadrature.net/en/acta-updated-analysis-of-the-final-version
> http://www.laquadrature.net/wiki/Against_ACTA
> http://action.ffii.org/acta/Analysis
[cont. in next post]"
"Post 2/2
> http://acta.ffii.org/?p=1060
Quite damning, isn’t it? And all by reputable sources, thank you very much. But it that’s not enough for you, the MEP, yes, the one who resigned when the EU signed it behind our backs by sneaking it into an agricultural meeting, well, here’s his view on it all: That it’s Useless, and a Threat.
> http://blogs.wsj.com/tech-europe/2012/02/10/acta-is-useless-and-a-threat-says-ex-eu-lead-negotiator/
He worried about ACTA harming his ability to pirate, is he?
Now, for those wanting to act against ACTA, I have some resources for you.
Firstly, petitions:
> http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20685
> http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20850
> https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/end-acta-and-protect-our-right-privacy-internet/MwfSVNBK
> https://www.accessnow.org/page/s/just-say-no-to-acta
> http://www.stopp-acta.info/english/get+involved/petition/petition.html
> http://www.petitiononline.com/stopacta/petition.html
> https://secure.avaaz.org/en/eu_save_the_internet/
Sign all the ones that you are able to, please. It will only take a few minutes of your time.
Next, is La Quadrature’s How To Act Against ACTA Guide.
> http://www.laquadrature.net/wiki/How_to_act_against_ACTA
Current plan of action is to contact the members of the INTA committee who are reviewing ACTA this second. Contact the ones from your country. Let your displeasure be known- it won’t take all that long, but it will make a difference. Their contact details are all here:
> https://memopol.lqdn.fr/europe/parliament/committee/INTA/
Thanks very much for all that.
See, Guardian. THIS is me caring about Democracy and Freedom of Speech. Notice the difference?"
"It is in any case interesting to note that the protest in Germany
and Austria are not mentioned at all.
It was the storm on the internet and bloggers that brought the issue
to attention - and they were successful.
On Friday the procedure was stopped at the ministerial level in Germany.
And also some of the media were, finally, reporting about it, even favorably.
It is in any case interesting to learn that the publishers council is
sponsoring it.
Because in that case it can also be assumed that one of the usual
suspects, Murdoch and News Corp, were pretty active.
And explaining why the media don't know anything about it all, kind of."
"i find it sad that the Guardian keeps mentioning 'freedom to download movies and music for free', as if thats a bad thing. Only last week the creators of Angry Birds said that pirating his gamd helped his businees to become the top phone game. Its something that Bill Gates has said many times too - Windows is predominant because it was copied so much in the third world and Eastern Europe.
Its something that the USA's GAO study note - that piracy, far from having a negative effect actually has a positive effect on sales. And many more studies show this too.
As do most readers here. We have all shared books (and ignored the Do not lend in the front cover) knowing that it was taking a sale from the author, but knowing that there was a good chance of more sales in the future if the book swas liked. Most of our favourite authors/music came from sharing. We even have our own file servers for people to browse in the form of book shelves.
Copyright is a short term monopoly granted by the rights holders (us, the people) through government to creators. This period has been extended many times mainly becasue of Hollywood/Disney being afraid of losing control of their creations. Except looking at Disney it isn't their creations. All 10 of the Disney Princess stories came from Public Domain - yet they want to destroy the public domain??
The music industry, like the film industry has more artists making more money than ever before thanks to the internet. The Old Gate Keepers of Art hate this as they dont have control of this new world of creation. So they try to force through ACTA, and SOPA. Did you read how RIAA boss Cary Sherman complained about how the politicians he had bought had not delivered SOPA as they shoul d have done?
Yes i am a musician, yes i make more money than i have ever done in the past thanks to the internet."
"In Prague, Czechoslovakia" - wow. Only 19 years passed since Czechoslovakia split, and this mistake still occurs in one of the most respected newspapers.
"Who will profit most from ACTA:
5. CBS - Leslie Moonves
Company income at 2010: 14,059 bln $
Profit: 724,2 mln $
Annual salary: 26 mln $
4. Time Warner - Jeffrey L. Bewkes
Company income at 2010: 26,888 bln $
Profit: 2,578 bln $
Annual salary:15 mln $
3. News Corp - Rupert Murdoch
Company income at 2010: 32,778 bln $
Profit: 2,539 bln $
Annual salary: 15 mln $
2. The Walt Disney Company - Robert A. Iger
Company income at 2010: 38,063 bln $
Profit: 3,963 bln $
Annual salary: 57 mln $
1. General Electric - Jeffrey R. Immelt
Company income at 2010: 151,628 bln $
Profit: 11,644 bln $
Annual salary: 9,62 mln $
Source: (in Polish, does anybody has English version?)
http://galerie.platine.pl/to-oni-tak-naprawde-zarobia-na-acta-g400107.html
My question is: who controls Guardian? Telegraph (the last info about ACTA is from January 27th)? Who will profit from it? You don't have free media in UK, it is under control of big business, the same which is pushing ACTA. Nothing about protests in whole Europe, nothing about BIG protests in the WHOLE Poland for two weeks, which initiated it! And you have only small group of protesters in London - the city of almost 10 mln people!
I guess, you have a business to do:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/digital-media/9080531/Sony-and-Apple-anger-Whitney-Houston-fans-over-album-price-hike.html
We, the poor Eastern Europeans do not have much money, so the freedom has much more value for us."
"Perhas people shold read why Kader Arif, the ACTA rapporteur -- or the guy in charge of ""investigating"" ACTA for the EU Parliament resigned in disgust over the fact that the EU was moving forward with ACTA:
http://blogs.wsj.com/tech-europe/2012/02/10/acta-is-useless-and-a-threat-says-ex-eu-lead-negotiator"
"Dear people of Britain and the World,
I am from Bulgaria, I was at the protest in Sofia, I've seen tens of thousands of people before gathered in one place at some cultural events, and I can guarantee you beyond any doubt that on 11.02 we were far more than 4000. Alas, that's what the most popular and commercial media (a TV previously owned by Murdoch) in our country reports, too, but these are not facts, these are utterly false news. However, well-respected media, such as the national TV and radio (equivalent to your BBC), other few TV channels and some independent media on the Internet did a decent coverage of the protest and when they cite some numbers they either just say ""thousands of people"" or they state numbers between 8000 to 12 000 (Channel 3). In my opinion we were more than 10 000, but indeed noone took care to count the exact number of people or at least I'm not familiar with such statistical data.
I recommend you to watch some footage shared on the Net to see the scale of the protests for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARySTvSBOYo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y59XxJoStA
And then we can thank the free Internet once more for the reason we are being accurately informed."
Is 'pomadig' part of what they call in Bavaria 'chicki-micki'? I am not sure of the right spelling of 'chicki-micki' but it refers to a sort of grandeur associated with Bayern Munich fans, players etc?
Nice article - Good Luck Jurgen!
Thought Bayern looked awesome at Parc Astrid a few weeks ago. I have a strange affection and fascination with FC Hollywood !
OKgala7 - it could be true, we use chicki-micki or summat like that to describe the eejits walking up and down the Ku'Damm on a Sunday afternoon , women in their fur coats and fancy bags and their husbands with their suits with no lapels and shiny shoes with very very thin soles, they give you a look that says "how dare you shit in my shoes"
This comment, and those referring to it, deleted by moderator
Bayern were terrible against Cottbus and they play Leverkusen next, albeit at home. But as they have a cup match midweek, it is not inconceivable that Leverkusen sneak away with some points and will open up the title race once and for all! Bayern will still win it, mind. But it's nice to think it could a title race once again... Would have liked to see a bit on Dirk Heinen's recall from retirement among flocks of sheep in Ireland, to a quick flight over, and an unlikely substitute appearance, with 90th minute point-saving win. Surely that was the true story of the weekend... www.young-germany.de/blog.html
Nice article. Last Friday I had a phone conversation with my father. We talked about football and he as a lifelong Bayern fan couldn`t stop ranting: "Bayern is so damn stupid. They send their best players abroad to play show matches in Dubai, Japan, New York and India to raise their profile. Then, they play against Anderlecht in the UEFA-Cup aired free on German TV and in front of millions of fans around their globe and they put their B-team on the pitch to lose with a lacklustre performance. They are simply too stupid. And on Saturday Cottbus will give them a beating, I tell you. And then we have unrest at the club again." He was right like always. (note: he would also ditch Lehmann for Adler or Neuer ahead of the EC)
"_AT_ Mr Honigstein:
It's simply wonderful for a German teacher to read about the use and connotations of the German word ""pomadig"" in an English newspaper. Almost knee-jerk-like, I came up with a very similarly used adjective, which would be ""bräsig"". This one might even summarize the ""typical Bayern arrogance"" a tad better than the one chosen.
_AT_ some other contributors:
the established spelling for another imaginative term used in the blog is ""Schicki-Micki""...although, on a second note, ""Who cares?"""
great work again raphael! i'm in the AB(B) Anyone But Bayern camp and always cheer against them and decided not to watch because i thought they'd kill cottbus. i had to check multiple times to make sure my eyes weren't fooling me when i saw the score at 2-0 cottbus with 10 minutes left.
"Bayern is trying its best to give some sense to this year's Bundesliga.
Werder is trying its best to give no sense to this year's Bundesliga.."
Great article Raphael, thanks. Too many British pundits would cream themselves to be able to use a word like pomadig on air. Could we translate it as "pampered poltroons"?
"I don't agree with the general view that Bayern are so dependent on Ribery. Conceded, he's a player who can make the difference - but one is easily misled by his sometimes spectacular appearances to take the part for the whole (Saturday, he was crap, at least in the first half).
Bayern are at the top of the table mainly as a result of their defensive organisation, and that first due to Martin Demichelis having the season of his life and second, - generally overlooked - because Mark van Bommel is inconspicuously adding structure & solidity to the team.
With these two missing vs. Energie you obviously have one of the reasons for Bayern's defeat. They should have done without them, surely, but other key player being out of form for weeks (Klose, Ze Roberto, to name just two - I've rarely seen Ze as disoriented as Saturday) the absence of Demichelis & van Bommel definitely matters.
So, with the HSV playing constantly & consistently and Leverkusen having a run, the Bundesliga could see an exciting final. Watch out for the next matchday, Bayern vs Leverkusen - I would not be too surprised if Bayern's lead will be diminished next week ..."
"""pomadig"". Hmmm ... My first thoughts'd be blasé or even sassy (a similarly old-fashioned word) - although Rafa (as usual) has a fine array of apt adjectives to get the message across, i.e. flash, pretentious.
It was certainly bizzare seeing Bayern stand around like statues against Cottbus after that demolition job on Anderlecht a couple of weeks ago.
I think Kahn resorted afterwards to referring to the tried-and-tested term ""Ueberheblichkeit""."
Pomadig is often used in football jargon as "not direct, not decisive", etc, not so much arrogant.
good article again, mister h. but let`s not beat around the bush: bayern's main problem is hitzfeld. his football ideology is totally outdated. it is embarrassing that he doesn't have a clue what to do as soon as ribéry is not at his best. it is even more embarrassing how the young germans lahm, schweinsteiger and podolski perform. it is a shame that all of them, as you said, have deteriorated since the world cup. hitzfeld can only handle well-established senior players like effenberg or matthäus in the past (mind his words after the cottbus-match: he said that from now on he would not be considerate of big names anymore. in reverse that means he has just done that so far. interesting don't you think?) furthermore he has got no idea what to do with (i.e. toni kroos) and how to improve talented young players. he has got no idea how to react to defensively organized opponents. that may depend on his conservative football ideology which always calculates in advance what is necessary in order to maintain the status quo. and let's be honest: it's not only the performance against mighty energie cottbus that has been uninspiring, boring and ridiculous. bayern have played dowdy, boring football since last november. in the recent past there was only one impressive performance against schalke. the rest has been utterly crap!
"Hi all, Thanks for the comments.
Alex: Heinen is a great story, absolutely. Simply couldn't get it in today. Thanks for sharing it though...
maxweber: I agree, 100%.
Check: http://football.guardian.co.uk/europeanfootball/story/0,,2228781,00.html from halfway down. (but disregard CL 2001 typo, please. 99 99 99 99!)
All the best, R."
So does this mean that we'll see Jelic warming the Bayern bench next season, Rafa? (Also, noticed that you're Raf Honigstein on the front page today. New nickname?)
"Slicked back hair? The bounders! Hurrah for Cottbus! Love it when the workers stick it to the aristo's.
Btw, it's Xiamen, with an 'e'."
Someone once said after England's World Cup victory that ultimately the real loser was England itself, with success reinforcing insularity and willingess to learn from abroad. Whilst Germany haven't gone down that path, it's clear the players, especially the Bayern ones, have stagnated ever since the World Cup. Perhaps this is indicative of a bigger arrogance than the one the Bayern team show. What of Podolski, Schweinsteiger and Lahm? The only one who seems to be doing well is Miro Klose. With regards to the Cottbus game, it could happen to anyone. Real lost to Depor, Man U were seen all the way by Derby to a scraped win, and Porto struggled all the way through the Leixoes game. So I wouldn't read too much into it. Not to mention some of the side were also participating in the Anderlecht game in midweek. What is clear though is the signs are there of a bigger malaise which can only be covered up so long by the more consistent players and the occasional flash performance.
"guest,
a short post! Fantastic.
Careful you don't start sounding like miro, it could be a slippery slope."
I was told pomadig has nothing to do with pomade, that it comes from the Polish "po malu", meaning piecemeal, gradual [allmählich]. Not that it's especially important.
With all the talk of the young German internationals at Bayern stagnating, it is a bit worrying to think what will happen at the Euros. Hardly any of the players are on form and Klose, in particular, couldn't hit a barn door from 5 yards out at the moment. The list is endless of out of form players, or players coming back from injury...Mertesacker, Fritz, Lahm, Metze, Schneider. Frings, Poldi, Schweini etc. etc. it's quite ironic that Ballack, for one, seems to be producing some of the best form when he was the candidate everyone was most worried about.
"Maxweber & Honigstein:
Aren't you perhaps failing to give Hitzfeld credit for putting together a record-breaking, rock-solid defence with essentially the same player material Magath had available?
I remain in little doubt that Bayern will win three trophies, and if they do, it's also down to Hitzfeld's team not allowing goalscoring chances to the opposition. It's not negatively ""conservative"" to win trophies by making sure you don't lose.
The last two defeats seem irrelevant, though naturally they were delightful to watch."
"I hope Bayern win the league and strengthen even further for next year.
Europe awaits the return of strong German sides in the CL and Beyern are more likely than anyone else to provide one."
If you want Bayern to strengthen further in the summer, surely you need them to cock it up in the league (but make it into the CL places)?
For what it's worth Raphael, my taxi driver ( a Bayern fan ) last night said that Bayern sometimes lose on purpose . Just to make life a bit more interesting ! I enjoy your articles in the GDN and the SZ .
For what it's worth Raphael, my taxi driver ( a Bayern fan ) last night said that Bayern sometimes lose on purpose . Just to make life a bit more interesting ! I enjoy your articles in the GDN and the SZ .
For what it's worth Raphael, my taxi driver ( a Bayern fan ) last night said that Bayern sometimes lose on purpose . Just to make life a bit more interesting ! I enjoy your articles in the GDN and the SZ .
For what it's worth Raphael, my taxi driver ( a Bayern fan ) last night said that Bayern sometimes lose on purpose . Just to make life a bit more interesting ! I enjoy your articles in the GDN and the SZ .
For what it's worth Raphael, my taxi driver ( a Bayern fan ) last night said that Bayern sometimes lose on purpose . Just to make life a bit more interesting ! I enjoy your articles in the GDN and the SZ .
For what it's worth Raphael, my taxi driver ( a Bayern fan ) last night said that Bayern sometimes lose on purpose . Just to make life a bit more interesting ! I enjoy your articles in the GDN and the SZ .
For what it's worth Raphael, my taxi driver ( a Bayern fan ) last night said that Bayern sometimes lose on purpose . Just to make life a bit more interesting ! I enjoy your articles in the GDN and the SZ .
Another fine article Raphael - what with this, and almost a full page in today's Guardian about the great Saint Johnstone (well, it was mainly about Jody Morris, but who cares if we win the replay tonight and go on to stuff Rangers again in the cup), so my glass of Gaffel is almost overflowing. Talking of which, how about turning your attentions to the zweite liga and the continuing travails of 1FC Koeln?
"Bayern lose just to make it interesting? Well, we all know what good football pundits taxi drivers are! No, pomadig fits BM like a glove: we are who we are, because we are and no-one else is. And no-one typifies that more than the three wise men - ole big Pomadiger himself, Beckenbauer, ole 'we was cheated' Rummi and the main man, ole big gob Hoeness.
Unfortunately, with the goings on at Bremen, it would seem that BM is heading for yet another title win, though HSV and Leverkusen are showing promise. Whether Kahn's deliberation proves correct, we'll have to see, but if it is and BM don't finish first, then champagne corks will be popping all over Germany, outside of Munich, that is. Well done Cottbus."
"First things first - Keith Norris, if you're reading this, well done yesterday even though that was one of the most boring games I have ever seen. Apols that I didn't mail you, they'd taken the blog down before I could do anything!
As for the Bundesliga, let us see what this weekend brings - if the very much in form Leverkusen team can beat Bayern in Munich (on the balance of historical probability, unlikely) and the also in from Wolfsburg take out HSV then the title will become very interesting indeed!
Hope Eintracht beat seven shades of sh*te out of Cottbus on Thursday night - then we could even begin dreaming of the UEFA Cup, and relegating Schalke to the Intertoto...."
I don't really know but I have a pretty good feeling this is a load of crap. Over here in America the impression we got is that Eastern Europeans were desperate to leave before the fall of the wall too it's just that if they tried they got shot. My roommate is a Polish PhD student. He doesn't have too many kind words for the communist days.
"I remember sitting in a restaurant in Landshut (Bayern) in the mid 90s having breakfast and listening to a couple of middle-aged women who were staying in the same hotel; they'd come from Leipzig for a family wedding, I gathered.
Yes, the West was good, and it was nice to be here, but they'd lost a lot when they joined up with West Germany, was the tenor of what they had to say. Law and order used to be better, people were mor e friendlyin the old days,...
It's something I've never forgotten, because it was so at odds from the new media, but it's essentially what Mr Clark is telling us here."
I am a Hungarian, who went to the US to get my master's and Ph.D. The analysis of the article is correct. Pretty much everything collapsed after 1990, including higher education and R&D funding. Our industry has been almost completely privatized, meaning sold to foreign capital. We are witnessing the last push of selling public services (mass transportation, electricity and gas grid, health care, and postal service). There is nothing more to sell after this. The irony is that under "communist" rule and Soviet orientation the country had much more independent capabilities (industry, army, etc.) to function and survive than now. We have gained some political independence, but that is still very limited (for example, see how Hungary could not stay out of Iraq or Afghanistan and compare how the Soviets could not force us to participate in their Afghan invasion in 1979). Very few people say we should go back to the pre-1990 system. However, the transition to "democracy" and capitalism was competely screwed up. Of course, it takes two to tango. It required not only a less-than-benevolent West, but also a very naive, short-sighted post-communist "elite". This new capitalist "elite" is largely the same as the previous communist one. For all practical purposes Hungary and its fellow ex-Soviet bloc countries are satellites of the West. We should have introduced protectionist policies at the beginning to strengthen our economies and then slowly open up our markets. Joining NATO and the EU were also rushed. Now the West is paying the price by being flooded by Eastern workers. You reap what you sow.
"I tell you why some Romanian kids are better academically than British kids, because the system over there is hardcore. I know; I've taught them. There would be a public outcry in the UK if Romanian attitudes were applied in British schools, because Romanian kids learn from an early age that the world is hard, and the state denotes your fate. A computer will tell you where you go to school, and you'll be studying every hours God sends to have at least some influence in the path of your own life. That's how they learn to speak English in two years, because they kill themselves doing so. I've taught kids that work on farms in their free time, so they can pay for my lessons, so they can beat the system.
The reason Eastern Europeans come to the UK is simple. Better wages. Though the older folk may dream of the days when everyone earned a decent wage, they also forget the corruption, their lack of individual statehood, the bread queues and ignore the 'missing'. Yes, law and order was better, largely because most people were bloody terrified all the time. No young Pole or Romanian I know mourns the old days; they see an opportunity to make more of their lives and they take it. And yes, that is, in some ways, an endorsement of what we have, and they do not."
"Can you back any of your claims? I'd like to see the source of your information.
Per capita GDP in Poland seems to have been growing throughout the 1990's and 2000s. It was only $4400 per capita in 1994 and had risen to $9500 by 2002.
Here's some background on the post-communist Polish economy: ++++++++++++++++++++ The official unemployment rate edged down from 14.9% at the end of 1995 to 13.3% at the end of 1996. The unemployment rate continues to fall in 1997 and stood at 12.0%. In 2003, the unemployment rate significantly reached an all time high of 18.1%. The rate of inflation in Poland, which was almost 600% in 1990, tremendously declined to 37% in 1995, 30% in 1996, 18.8% in 1997, 15% in 1998, and 11% in 1999. Finally, in 2000 the inflation rate reached the single-digit level of 8.4% and in 2001 it increased to 10.2%. In 2002, a dramatic decrease in inflation led to a rate of 5.3% and 1.9% in 2003. http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~dspencer/IntroEcon/Sec04Fall03/GroupCFinalPoland.htm ++++++++++++++++++++
Those neoliberal economic policies of the early 90s seem to have worked.
The Hungarian and Czech economies also seem to have grown since the end of communism: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2000/09/suppleme.htm
I would like to know where you got this idea of a wonderful healthcare system in the former Soviet Countries. If you look at the infant mortality rates and life expectancy of those countries you'll see they're worse than the UK.
Life Expectancy: UK: 78.54 years Czech Republic: 76.22 years Poland: 74.97 years Hungary: 72.66 years Bulgaria: 72.3 years
Infant Mortality: Czech Republic: 3.89 deaths/1,000 live births UK: 5.08 deaths/1,000 live births Poland: 7.22 deaths/1,000 live births Hungary: 8.39 deaths/1,000 live births Bulgaria: 19.85 deaths/1,000 live births
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/bu.html https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ez.html https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/hu.html https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/pl.html https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html Here's a report on the healthcare systems in Europe that puts France at number one, the UK at number 15, Poland at number 21 and the Czech Republic at number 22. http://healthpowerhouse.com/media/RaportEHCI2006en.pdf
I've looked at international math scores and it seem that Hungary did score higher than the US and Scotland and quite a few other places but Bulgaria and Romania both scored lower than the US and Scotland (I don't see the UK on there). Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), 2003. http://nces.ed.gov/timss/TIMSS03Tables.asp?Quest=3&Figure=5"
I first visited soviet Russian colonies soon after the Russians retreated about 1990. My last visit was nine weeks this spring to Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary. I've visited many times in between. A few observations: 1: the thesis of this writer is generally correct; 2. he's certainly correct when he talks about the difference between the big cities, for instance,Budapest and rural areas of Hungary; 3. Bulgarian and Romanian university students, at least the dozens I spoke to this past April and May work far harder on their studies than Canadian (I'm a retired Canadian professor), American and European students. I think education is more valued there; if not, the students are motivated by their bleak prospects. 4. I've travelled considerably in other places than Eastern Europe; show me a country that complied with the neo-liberal recipes of the World Bank and the IMF and I'll show you a rich elite and an impoverished country cheers
Mr Clark tells us that children from Eastern Europe have performed well in a competition organised by the International Maths Organisation. I've just Googled for the International Maths Organisation and it doesn't seem to exist. Is Mr Clark merely being sloppy with his nomenclature or is he reverting to Stalinist type and inventing data out of thin air? I'm charitable enough to assume the former, even though Mr Clark has a long history of apologetics for the likes of Slobodan Milosevic.
"I agree with hfakos. The economic changes wrought in Eastern Europe were for western advantage. Whatever was marketable was sold-off to large holders of capital. Our western system imperatively needs to grow - no growth, no profit - and the prospect of such a large induction of new workers and greater production was irresistible to us.
The chap who should be contributing to this blog is Geoffery Sachs who can authoritatively report on the economic changes in Poland. They appear to have been great for government administration and terrible for the people."
"MoaningMinny,
The name of the organisation is actually the International Mathematical Olympiad. Mr Clark used the 2004 results. Here are the 2006 results:
http://imo2006.dmfa.si/results_ctd.html"
"Bogtrotter
Many thanks for providing this information. It's interesting that Neil Clark only referred to the 2004 results from the International Methematics Olympiad, since it turns out that the children of the former socialist countries did altogether less well in 2006. Still - I suppose there's no Stalinist like an old Stalinist."
"Thank you for that link bogtrotter.
That competition has only six contestants from each country according to their site. http://imo2006.dmfa.si/about.html I would say that is a poor way to judge a country's educational system. It's like looking at the number of Olympic medal winners to see which country has the healthiest population.
The TIMSS data that I linked to earlier is a much more accurate way to judge how a country's students are doing in math and science.
+++++++++++++++ Each participating country, like the United States, is required to draw random samples of schools. In the United States, a national probability sample is drawn for each study that has resulted in over 500 schools and approximately 33,000 students participating in 1995, 221 schools and 9,000 students participating in 1999, and 480 schools and almost 19,000 students in 2003. http://nces.ed.gov/timss/FAQ.asp?FAQType=7 +++++++++++++++"
"You keep asking leading questions, but never properly answer them. I have below:
""But is the political system in either country so much more corrupt than in Berlusconi-tainted Italy or cash-for-honours Britain?"" YES
""But communist rule ended more than 16 years ago - can it really still be blamed for the problems of today? YES"
"These countries were poor before Hitler invaded them. The Soviets merely introduced their own doctrine of ""steel combines"", collective farms and socialised business to these agrarian countries. The most advanced technologically was Czechoslovakia with Skoda and a strong German engineering influence.
The USSR build an economy of giant steel mills and giant farms and anything on a scale to keep control of large numbers of workers; it used a war economy to utlise steel in military equipment and a jet engine sector to equipm military aircraft and buy influence abroad through subsidised weapons shipments.
It build all this on a sea of oil and used it to make COMECON function.
Without cheap energy these economies were unviable, noone wanted steel made inefficiently - and once price mechanisms exposed the sham these economies slumped as they no longer enjoyed Soviet subsidy and imperial preference. Russia today is an oil exporter dependent for 52% exports on oil - not manufactured goods like China.
It is Socialism which took poor countries and turned them into backwaters and industrial museums by over-investing in hardware in a software era...........Flexibility was the one thing Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism could not handle.
In very few COMECON countries have the Communists been dislodged completely - they run property companies, banks, and are partners with Western capitalists seeking to exploit opportunities at the expense of the worker who cannot earn a competitive wage because the productivity is so low
Britain in contrast has low productivity like Eastern Germany but it is compensated by huge transfer payment to make consumerism possible"
An insightful and accurate article. Thanks to bogtrotter and dissidentjunk for trying to put things in their right place. Sincerely, so what if Romania got the 6th place at IMO 2006 and UK the 19th? You could check the IOI 2006 too http://www.ioi2006.org/index.php?page=Official_Results&menu=0010. There is no need in getting so defensive.It's a fact. Romanian children begin school at 6 yo and finish high school at around 18 yo.They have 4-5 classes (50 minutes each) every day in primary, 5-6 in secondary&high-school, homework 5 days a week for at least two hours a day. Many children play at an music instrument or they join a sports team as well. And that's nothing in comparison with the number of study hours of Chinese children. A difference in the standard of life does not necessarily mean a difference in a standard of education. There is a difference in motivation and study hours.
"A good friend of mine and a colleague at work is Romanian. He escaped to Switzerland with his family about 18 years ago. He has told me stories of how his father, on trips to visit a relative in Geneva, would be approached by Romanian men who would start 'converstations' with him.
These people were secret police and had two objectives: firstly they were waiting to see if he said anything derogatory about Romania and secondly they were interested if he knew anyone who was thinking of leaving the country.
My friend speaks of a hellish place where food was scarce, prospects bleak, corruption and state violence was widespread.
Myself I have visited Poland many times and in the mid to late '90s, outside Warsaw, in teh countryside, you were hard-pushed to find a properly surfaced road.
Many friends from Poland tell of the difficulties of living under communism and don't look back with anything like the rose-tinted glasses and, I suspect, badly informed approach as the author.
What bad journalism. I guess he is a member of the communist party."
"It's striking that so many of those trying to dismiss the article do so by setting up straw men:
- you don't have to wish for a return to communism to see that the transition was botched due to neoliberal ideology that encouraged the elite to rob their own countries
- you don't have to ignore a record of economic growth to see that higher per capita income is explained by a rich elite and impoverished majority
- you don't have to manipulate figures to see that health in E.Europe deteriorated after 1990
- you don't have to be a stalinist to believe that people deserve better than the decks that neoliberal capitalism deals them..."
"Neil wrote: ""The east-west divide and the xenophobia that accompanies it will only end when there is a more honest, balanced appraisal of the legacy of communism and an acknowledgment that despite the lack of political freedoms there were also solid achievements.""
Ain't going to happen. A balanced appraisal of communism would mean the admission that the US & Nazi-instigated Cold War was an unprovoked war of aggression whose aim was to destroy Communism as a unifying force against the imperialist plunder of the third world and the capitalist exploitation of workers.
We know today who started the Cold War and how. Truman annuled the peaceful coexistence promise made by FDR at Yalta. The Nazi war criminals of the Gehlen Org who provided Washington with ""intelligence"" about Soviet military intentions and capabilities lied through their teeth, saying the Soviets were preparing to roll over Europe with a sea of tanks when in fact they were trying to turn their tanks into tractors in order to rebuild their devastated country. The pro-Nazi factotums of the Rockefeller empire and its foreign policy organ the Council on Foreign Relations, which had de facto become the US State Department in 1941, provided the rhetoric and the top-level cadres.
All that was needed was a starting gun. The Hitler crony John Foster Dulles provided it by goading South Korean dictator Syngman Rhee into attacking the North on a day when UN observers had all been called away from their posts. Portraying this Sudetenland remake as a ""communist aggression"" the Nazi-sympathizing Rockefeller puppets in Washington got Congress to underwrite a 400% increase in war spending and to approve the creation of a national security state, with its CIA, Pentagon, and National Security Council, shrouded in secrecy and without any democratic accountability whatsoever.
The NSC decisions that established the US policy of belligerence against the USSR remained secret for decades. Trillions disappeared into the Pentagon without anyone knowing where they went. The CIA toppled governments and ran assassination programs all over the world and was never subjected to even a semblance of oversight from Congress until the Vietnam debacle.
Admitting that Communism had its good points would lead to admitting that the Cold War was based on a pack of lies just like the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, the Gulf War, Vietnam, and just about every other war that the US started. It would be tantamount to admitting the fundamental criminality of the US, of NATO, and of the entire international capitalist system.
That will never happen. What will happen is what Thomas Kuhn said about scientific paradigms: They don't change because people are convinced of the falsity of the old paradigm, they change because the defenders of the old paradigm lose their jobs or die off, i.e. they lose political power. As the decline of the US accelerates and the rise of Russo-Chinese power gathers speed, Europe's policy and propaganda organs (i.e. its ""democracy"" and ""free press"") will inevitably bow to their new masters and change their tune."
Neil Clark laughably using maths events is very sad. Clark in previous articles has argued that the number of people killed at Srebenica was 2-4,000 when the real and UN/Red Cross/Serb figure is 8000. Neil Clark is not very bright and has a nasty agenda.
Clark and other apologists for Stalinism ignore the fact that Czechs (1968) and Hungarians (1956) tried to hold peaceful democratic revolutions with socialist aims. These popular asertions of sovereignty and democracy were crushed by Russian tanks. It was the Soviet Union that killed democratic socialist / social democratic aspirations in Eastern Europe. Having said that, it is also true that the existence of the Soviet bloc was a mighty incentive to Western capitalism during the Cold War to reach historic comprises with organized labour. That incentive no longer exists, super-exploitation is the order of the day.
MrJennings: you're right - you don't really know.
"I think part of the problem was how the easterners modernised after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Poland went for the extreme sharp shock - very unwise, as no economy, not even the USA, can cope with shocks of that kind, it just crushes confidence and makes people either save like crazy and not spend, or leave. Hungary which opted for a much more gradualist approach is doing better than Poland. And the Germans when rehabilitating east germany took a very gradualist line, and if you compare East Germany to Poland and Hungary, it has grown much faster and done better (though compared with West germany, it still looks bad).
The other issue is geography. Poland borders East Germany on the one side and Ukraine on the other. But there is not much economic activity on the Germany-Poland border, most of it happens in the middle of germany, where former east germany meets the west. The Czech Republic on the other hand borders very rich Bavaria in southern Germany, as well as equally rich Austria. Hence the Czechs are benefitting from cross-border trade, and outsourcing from german factories.
Most of the eastern europeans in Britain are from Poland, only a few are from the Czech republic and Hungary. It will probably take a couple of decades to rehabilitate Poland - in the meanwhile, as the other western europeans open their doors, the burden on Britain should drop. (But we should do our duty as humans and Europeans and let them work here)"
"""MrJennings -I don't really know but I have a pretty good feeling this is a load of crap"".
Yes it is load of crap. At the stroke of a pen Clark ignores all the suppression and failings of Communism and puts the blame onto the West. What a prat he is."
Well, before 1989 nobody felt the urge to emigrate and the massive fortifications at the borders only seerved the pupose of keeping of starving Western proletarians.
"Strange how many liberals now find themselves in a love-fest with Jeffrey Sachs, the chief architect of all that 'shock therapy.'
I guess while Dubya still stalks, the sins of others are easily forgiven."
"'In the belly of the beast, jewels can be found...'
During communist times, education was important, and it shows. Kids in Poland had a much better general knowledge than British ones when I was teaching in that country in the late 90s.
The feeling among many I've met in Poland is that they have simply switched from being ruled from Moscow to being ruled from Brussels and/or Washington.
I hope not to receive any anti-polonist emails from agitpapa, please, not today..."
"Although I can only appreciate the tone of this article, in the light of the xenophobic materials that pollute the UK tabloids nowadays, I disagree with any positive legacy the ""communism"" has given to education or health or anything else for that matter.
I have lived in Romania for 27 years and I am the living witness of the system. The interest for learning was gained in most cases by an abrupt and unacceptable system. There were cases where pupils would actually want to learn and education was seen as very important, indeed.
To give a simplistic but relevant example: We were away from the western temptations, from the glossy chocolate bar packaging, away from television and advertising. So we could only turn to books, sports or learning in general. That could explain a lot but it is an indirect benefit that came out of oppression.
At the same time, I am happy that some newspapers take a stand against the hypocritical lies (even The Guardian published information about Germany trying to block the ascension of Romania to the EU, information denied the next day) about the danger of immigration, about Romanians being thieves or evil gipsies, people living parasite lives... if you would translate an article like that to German or Serbian, you would have a genuine national-socialist propaganda one or a metaphorical encouragement for another Srebrenica."
"Once again we have someone on the Left making a redundant and self-serving argument, ignoring any realities of the issue.
Take a glance at the assumptions involved and you should see what I mean.
First, is the colonial assumption that the Eastern Europeans had no control over their destiny and simply accepted - without a hint of self-interest - the west's diktats.
This model of politics is the dominant theme of leftist global political economy and reveals a level of critical analysis that would (or, morelike, should) embarrass even the most naive politics student.
Is the world really that mechanical? If the west says jump the 'poor' say 'how high?'. I think not. The transition of central and eastern europe was a complex affair, based upon the self-interest of domestic elites mixed with the heady rhetoric of victorious cold warriors, and an eagerness to ditch the past, turn their back on Russia etc etc.
The leftist view of western diktat followed by eastern acceptance is politics for dummies, accepted and regurgitated by dummies.
The second assumption is that there is some simple ""neoliberal"" body of ""economic reform"". There may have been some truth to this 15 years ago, but it certainly is not now. It is now just a rather boring, and uninformative, straw man. The economic prescriptions suggested by bodies such as the EBRD are far more nuanced than anything someone like Clark could even recognise, let alone write about.
The third is that ""Eastern Europe"" is uniform. It is not. Poland differs from Slovenia, which is rather different from Moldova.
I could go on.
Ultimately, arguments like Clark's are really ideological, presenting reasons for Leftist ideology rather than caring about the situation in Eastern Europe. Clark's real target is his straw man ""Neoliberalism"", presenting evidence why his understanding of capitalism is flawed and - implicitly - why socialism is superior.
If he wants to make this argument then he will need better evidence to persuade me then the trite nonsense that is written above."
"The CIA's 1956 Hungarian uprising was a ""peaceful democratic revolution?"" In which parallel universe? Read the US Army intel report: �Hungary: Resistance Activities and Potentials,� January 1956 http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB76/doc1.pdf
There's a list of active counterrevolutionary terrorist cells, attacks on Soviet troops, arms caches, etc. as well as proposals for how the US could turn ""passive widespread dissidence"" into ""active resistance.""
All this was in line with the - secret - new policy of destabilization of Warsaw Pact countries adopted by the US National Security council (top secret NSC document #5608) and rubber-stamped by NATO countries without any democratic consultation.
Hungarian anti-Sovietism had nothing to do with democracy. Hungary was a clerical fascist, Jew-murdering ally of Germany and occupied by the Red Army as such. Instead of being grateful for the benign occupation and the Soviet guidance towards socialism, the reactionary, church-bound, largely peasant Hungarian population stuck to its backwardness and became a willing tool of the CIA.
It's striking that the uprising occurred during a period of concessions to popular reaction by the Nagy government, such as the abolition of collectivization. Hungarians saw this as a sign of weakness and trusting the assurances of US military assistance broadcast by the CIA's radio stations, they tried to exploit the perceived weakness to bring back the old clerical-fascist regime."
"Some people still don't seem to get it about Communism. If you ignore the complete suppression of free thought, the right to choose your own beliefs system, the gulags, the abuse of psychiatry to label anyone with his own ideas as mentally ill, the denial of any personal space to its citizens and last but not least the most murderous regimes in human history, it's true that it did provide a very basic minimum in terms of social provision and law and order (soviet policemen went considerably further than the clip around the ear).
So if you were prepared to sacrifice any independent-minded thoughts, any beliefs you held dearly, any prospect of choosing which profession you wanted to work in then you could probably have an OK life under Communism.
The inconvenient fact that its advocates seem to ignore is that as soon as the wall was knocked down they voted with their feet and headed west.
Certainly the concentration of the wealth in the hands of a small number of oligarchs has contributed to the exodus and the transition to a market economy should have been better regulated.
But put yourselves in the shoes of a Russian or a Pole in 1990. You either stay in a country that will take decades to catch up with the west in terms of material comforts or you go west and, even if at first you must find a menial job, you know that opportunities are there if you are lucky or if you work hard.
People who are prejudiced against Eastern Europeans should remember they only want what we have taken for granted for decades."
"""Yes it is load of crap. At the stroke of a pen Clark ignores all the suppression and failings of Communism and puts the blame onto the West. What a prat he is.
Neil Clark might want to compare the subsequent neoliberal experiment unfavourably with the communism that came before it,but it is too easy to write off the messenger because the message is too painful to accept.
The truth is that the reforms across the V4 counties have plunged much of them into poverty and a battle for survival.The debate about the recent influx of migration from Poland has to take this into account,not least because of the hypocrisy of New Labour spokesmen like Denis MacShane who write about the benefits for US,without bothering to mention that Blair and co see countries like Poland as a repository of both the cheap and skilled labour WE need and never about the social,economic and cultural dislocation caused by a neoliberal system that flourished because of communism and not in spite of it.
If you pick up a book like Abby Innes' 'The Short Goodbye'about the break up of Czechoslovakia in 1993,you would be able to find out how the neoliberal experiment owed much to a Leninist political culture based on democratic centralism and Utopian expectations of a transition to a market economy within a short time scale and that was all about outmaneouvering the dissident movement and preserving the power of post-communist elites from democratic accountability.This book received qualified praise from the High Tory Roger Scruton who was a supporter of the Czech dissident movement.
You do not have to be left wing to dislike this kind of manipulation:Simon Jenkins has written in a similar Tory vein about how Thatcher did the same in Britain and New Labour actually shares some of an authoritarian technocratic and populist culture that was the hallmark of communism.John Gray,another conservative,has also written about how neoliberalism was based on a messianic crusade of Western trained economists and the IMF economist to impose one American style model on countries that it was neither suitable for and and that it had a detrimental impact on.The subsequent economic growth has been all rather short term and about selling out your national interests to trade one form of Soviet subservience to another US-led one.
There is no need to look back at the communist system as better than that that came later.Even so,it is important to realise that the subsequent level of economic dynamism has been almost in spite of the idiocy of the elites in Poland and the talent of its people.
What we need in the Guardian is for a correspondent who speaks Polish or Slovak to do out to small towns and rural areas in these countries and report on what people really think of their governments and how it counters the triumphalist rhetoric of their supine and subservient elites.Then,we might realise that most Poles do not regard the economic reforms as a straightforward corollary of 'democratic transition' and other soothing phrases.We need something akin to Cobbett's Rural Rides or Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier and which shows the slow death of their traditional communities,the sense of misery,despair and apathy.
In Poland's case part of the problem has been the passivity and fatalism encouraged by the Catholic Church,as this has led to a culture of directionless moaning and support for Catholic populists who exploit these greivances just to continue a largely irrelevant campaign of vindictiveness against their liberal political enemies,who Kaczynski and his allies see as crypto-communist and Godless.All this does is act as a smokescreen concealing the fact that it is the absurd over-reliance on the USA for security against Russia that is part of the problem and not part of any solution that would actually preserve Poland's independence and culture against the idiotic politics of greedy peasant-like acquisition and get-rich-quick panaceas.
By contrast,Czech has a stronger civil society and a political culture that is somewhat more constructive since it rejected a wholesale importing of neoliberal ideology."
"A final word - the article, like so many others, to me only reveals the author�s ignorance about economic growth in general, and capitalism in particular.
To put it simply, economic growth relies upon institutions. Institutions provide the disciplined framework within which economic activity can occur. (This applies to all economic systems, capitalist or socialist.) The law is one such institution. Established property rights another. In addition, there needs to be some accepted process for change, both small and gradual, and large and epochal.
Capitalism has, by and large, fitted this model better than the central planning models espoused by the 'Marxists' (cf Lord Desai's book ""Marx's Revenge"") of Russia and its 70-year European empire. Their model had the institutions, but these were unwieldy and bureaucratic, focused largely on serving their own interests rather than that of the population. Change was anathema, as there was no mechanism or incentive structure to respond to bottom-up (consumer) needs. Any change that did occur was top-down; when there was a change it followed a shuffle in senior bureaucracy.
Alongside these institutions emerged corruption and thriftyness (ie Russian 'blat' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blat), through which the well-connected became wealthy, and the poor managed to work the system, if they were lucky.
Capitalism also rewards self-interest and corruption (if I were lazy, I would say this appears to be part of the human condition, replicated almost automatically in institutional form), but liberal systems have proven to be more effective at designing self-correcting mechanisms, allowing elites/rulers to be replaced when they, for want of a better phrase, start taking the p*ss.
If Clark, and other socialists, wish us to start looking at Central and Eastern Europe as it was, then we should be told the whole story, not a whole lot of new myths. The title of the piece is ""Blinded by the Cold War"". As a description of Neil Clark, it fits perfectly."
"Agitpapa: ""The CIA's 1956 Hungarian uprising was a ""peaceful democratic revolution?"" In which parallel universe? Read the US Army intel report: �Hungary: Resistance Activities and Potentials,� January 1956 http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB76/doc1.pdf ""
------------------------
That was an interesting read and I can't imagine why anyone would defend that type of government as described in that report.
Would you honestly like to live under those conditions?
Why do you think the people who resisted that were 'backwards'?"
"Orwell'sghost: Blaming the Catholic Church for Poland's problems is a good try but I think even those people who dislike the Church of Rome would have to concede that the resistance to Communism and Sovietism was largely led by the Church in Poland and in particular the election of a Polish Pope in 1978 was a catalyst in the (peaceful) rebellions that followed.
I share some of your concerns about some of the more radical Catholics in Poland (even the Vatican has rebuked some of their excesses) but would point out that recent election results in Poland seem to suggest that the Church is more in touch with the people than you would like to think. Many Churches in Britain are now laying on Polish masses because so many of their parishioners are now Polish so it would suggest that the exodus is for economic rather than religious reasons.
One of the reasons that the pro-family (Catholic) party won the elections in Poland is because the demographic crisis is reaching such dangerous proportions that people are becoming more pro-life in their outlook. There is a division in Poland between people who would like it to stay as it is now and those who would like it to become more Catholic.
Likewise many people in other Eastern European countries (whether Orthodox or Catholic) are turning to religion because the pro-life ethic answers the needs of a country whose population is dwindling at an alarming rate.
Given the fact that the west also has a demographic crisis, more and more people are coming around to the pro-life point of view whether they are Catholic or not.
Poland's problems - and that of the Eastern bloc countries as a whole - are the legacy of Communism and not whatever religious persuasion of that country (Catholic, Orthodox or, the case of Bosnia or Albania, Muslim). It's only 15 years since Communism ended and it will take a long time for the damage to be repaired."
"Orwell's Ghost writes -
""What we need in the Guardian is for a correspondent who speaks Polish or Slovak to do out to small towns and rural areas in these countries and report on what people really think of their governments and how it counters the triumphalist rhetoric of their supine and subservient elites""
Well, I'm there right now, so I'll see what I can do. My parents-in-law, who voted for the right-wing, Solidarity-union affiliated PiS party, can see now that many of the promises they made were false, and that they played on the desire to cling to some sense of what is truly Polish (the Catholic Church, for example), while promising many things that they can't deliver (like an end to corruption and a cheap state).
One of the most interesting things about the PiS government in Poland is their 'lustracja' process, under which every politician, and now every member of the clergy, is being investigated for their possible role in the Sluzba Bezpieczenstwa (SB)- the Secret Services. High level politicians are being accused of being 'Soviet spies' because they are implicated in working for the SB. This is happening 17 years after the fall of the communist government in Poland, and it seems to me to be a poor attempt to play up to the strongly nationalist elements in the country, which are very strong here, as they are in many of the Central/East European former Warsaw pact states. It is this kind of paranoid, obsessive strain in the current Polish government which is so insidious, as has been shown by the President's refusal to attend a high level meeting with German and French leaders, apparently because of illness, but really because of a cartoon 'defaming' him in a German paper.
However, I can understand where this paranoia and obsession comes from. Rather than standing by and condemning it, we should be (as a nation, Britain) supporting alternatives, across Central and Eastern Europe, strengthening the economic foundations in comununities. Steadily the 'witch hunt' mentality related to communist times will disappear, and people will start to look forward, not back."
"Just to add to the mix: I went to a talk by the Ex-Prime Minister/Finance Minister of Estonia, someone who had brought in some of the reforms after 1989. He claimed that his more radical proposals (i.e. Flat Tax) were argued against by the International Organisations like the IMF.
So again as has been said this is a lazy article which groups all the Ex-Communist countries under one banner and make them unwitting recipients of Western Capitalist exploitation.....
What was that syndrome called Stockholm Syndrome...."
"Reconquista wrote: ""I can't imagine why anyone would defend that type of government as described in that report""
You can't? Odd, since you would gladly defend what your ""democratic West"" was doing at the time: The McCarthy purges, the CIA coups and assassinations, the Anglo-French-Israeli neocolonialist/zionist occupation of Egypt, the US occupation of Lebanon, the CIA's bankrolling of the US media (Operation Mockingbird) and of Western artists and intellectuals (Congress for Cultural Freedom), the list is endless..."
_AT_ThomasY - The world does not need more people. Replacement on a country by country basis is a crock of shit when we have allowances on economic migrants. Yes theres a shortfall in some countries undergoing the demographic transition, no we do not have to subscribe to the crap pro life (a misnomer there !) agenda. Which is frankly an affront to anyone with half a brain. Finally you are wrong, many of the world's problems can be laid, squarely, at the feet of reactionary missonaries of faith. If the underlying reasons are realpolitik, its sold to the people in more personal terms.
"""Instead of being grateful for the benign occupation and the Soviet guidance towards socialism....""
agitpapa: Those 'helpful' Soviets would be kicking down your door right now for using communication channels and words not sanctioned by the state. Or maybe not, based on your tender recollections of their 'benign' rule over Hungary until the west came in and messed everything up.
We also have a Czech friend of the family who relates a story of watching her father being shot at the border by those benign occupiers and their Slovak minions. Ungrateful bitch.
Has it occurred to the esteemed Mr Clark that the USSR screwed up the east so bad that 17 years is hardly enough time to fix it? Just look at the drag E Germany continues to be on W Germany.
He also fails to mention the second class status of the former eastern bloc, which undoubtedly has affected such things as W European investment - again, look to the example of how the 'Osties' are still treated in Germany today.
The massive environmental, psychic, and social damage the Soviets inflicted across the east was anything but 'benign'."
"Neil Clark is, as some posters have pointed out, long on the rhetorical questions and short on the answers. He asks,
'Both Bulgaria and Romania are routinely portrayed as backward, mafia-ridden hell-holes that will infect the rest of the continent come January 1. But is the political system in either country so much more corrupt than in Berlusconi-tainted Italy or cash-for-honours Britain?
Well, I don't have first-hand experience of Bulgaria and Romania, but, if it's any help, I've spent a fair bit of time over the last 20 years in the former Soviet Union and that's considerably worse than either Italy or the UK. It was under Communism, too.
'But,' he objects, 'communist rule ended more than 16 years ago - can it really still be blamed for the problems of today?' Well, considering the stick Mrs Thatcher still gets -- not always unfairly -- for the lasting ill-effects of what she did in her tenure, I think that's a 'Yes', too.
Mr Clark ignores the self-evident fact that Communism collapsed in the Soviet Union and its satellite states because it left the economy comprehensively buggered. The botched privatisations that followed certainly didn't help, and it was -- by the way -- instructive to see that the people supervising and benefiting from this legalised plunder, at least in the former Soviet Union, were by and large precisely the same apparatchiks, or their nephews, who'd supervised the descent into economic chaos in the first place.
There's no getting away from the fact that, quite apart from the barbarity of the political system, Communism collapsed because it bankrupted whole countries. If it had worked in the first place, they wouldn't have been in this mess 16 years later?
Niet pravda?"
"I have to say that despite my offence taken at a post made by agitpapa on a previous thread, I have some sympathy with what he/she's saying here. The fact is that the common conception that what went on in communism was 'all bad' and what went on on the western side of the iron curtain was 'all good' is patently wrong.
The legacy of communism and the legacy of capitalism is yet to be reckoned, in a final sense. I wouldn't like to be the one who does so."
As we're on edhukation, edhucation, education here, let's face it: all education is a form of "brainwashing". When you take a young, retentive brain and steer it in a certain direction, it makes a great deal of difference whether that direction is useful (e.g. grammar, syntax, comprehension, maths, physics, chemistry, useless (e.g. religion, media studies), or so liable to "interpretation" as to make something potentially very useful potentially totally useless (e.g. history, economics). Fact is, there is a great deal to be said for rote-learning for very young children: encouraging critical and creative thinking as they grow up is all very well provided it's against a backdrop of some solid knowledge and understanding of the basics. All of which is a long-winded way saying, reading, writing and maths. As for giving them a moral compass, if you can drill something like the ten commandments into them without calling it Word of God, voila... Oh, and also plenty of compulsory sports and homework, the former on the basis of "mens sana in corpore sano", the latter so as to reduce their exposure to the crap culture all around them. Stick with it for a couple of generations and the culture won't be such crap either.
"""..We can no longer deny the link between the eastern Europe exodus and economic 'reform' ..""
This is not a new idea and after reading all yes all of the comments above I'm not suprised by one thing and I am surprised by another.
I'm not suprised that all the gringo's are here doing their Antie Cummunisem bit. I'm certainly not going to promote soviet socialism as better than US Walmartism .. oh no perish the thought. However the gringo's were (and still are) subject to years and years of full on propaganda 5to prevent them developing anyother but the official USA world view. That some of them defy this is a testament to the human spirit.
I am suprised that no one has mentioned Jeffrey Sachs and his volte-face regarding ""shock therapy"". That is the instant ""release of price and currency controls, withdrawal of state subsidies, and immediate trade liberalization.."" for former soviet block countries, including Russia. Sachs has recanted and now proposes a very different path of development for Africa.\
Of course he's a big fan of the UN so the gun totin' gringo's don't like that 'cos they be a figurin that them thar UN varmits ar a plottin a new one wurld gubbermint."
I just finished a math course at a local university here in the U.S. It was an evening summer class. The students were regular college students and a few older ones (myself included.) There were a few black students from other countries, a few Hispanics, average white kids, etc. - a good mix. There was an ongoing discussion before class between the instructor and one of the students who was older, in her late 30s and from the Ukraine. It seemed clear to me that her education in the Ukraine had been solid, the bar had been set high, but that she is here in the U.S. for the economic opportunity. The class cost close to 2000 once the cost of the textbook and lab fee and administrative fees were added in. It was worth all of 4 credits. She paid for the tuition out of her own pocket. In the Ukraine, the education, the good educational foundation she received, was free. She talked about this. She sympathized with the instructor who complained about how students were always trying to coast through the class without working very hard or studying very much. It did seem that the U.S. born students were the ones targeted for this criticism. Her explanation was that they had daddy and mummy footing the bill for the tuition while she paid that herself. This was the second math class I had been in where commments of this type were made informally. My own take on the matter (I got A's in both classes by studying my butt off) was that many of the students have full time jobs. Even part-time jobs cut into study time. I have neither - and I actually did the homework, all of it, becuase I had the time. The Ukraine student had taken another math class at the college in which the instructor on the first day had categorized the students - Eastern European and Russian students, Asian students, home-grown, educated-in-the-U.S. students. She didn't like this for some reason. It makes sense to me; helps the instructor determine what the level of the class is going to be.
"This is a blindingly stupid and blinkered piece of writing that manipulates the obvious and turns it into a pointless jab at the west.
Yes, the IMF is bad for you if you're old, unskilled, and poor. Everyone knows that. And communism was bad for you if you were young, ambitious and independent. It is possible for the neoliberal model to be both harsh and promising, not great for everyone but overall better for Eastern Europe.
The world is paradoxical and complex, isn't it?
I travelled to Czechoslovakia in 1989, a few months after the revolution. I remember ordering a salad in the ""best"" restaurant in the city, the International. It consisted of one leaf of lettuce and a slice of tomato.
Complexity doesn't seem to be possible on Guardian comment boards, unless it's for excusing nasties that you like. Otherwise, it's throw out a few facts and come to glaringly dumb conclusions.
Yes, if this is what the English education system is producing, then the Romanians are clearly far smarter than you guys. And I doubt they read crap like this."
You only have to look closely at western institutions to see that the "corporate state" doesn't work at the local level. In America, even in strong middle class neighborhoods, schools are poorly equipped--not enough desks, chairs, supplies. Teachers are forced to pay for supplies out of their own pockets. Libraries are closed or their hours reduced. Health care, which is mostly privatized, is just a dream for over 44 million people. These policies benefit corporations, not people. The west has become one large corporation, and its governments--comprised mostly of businessmen--aid and abet those corporations. The most transparent, of course, is the Bush administration, which has dismantled or restricted every social program we have worked so hard to establish. Only the oil companies and their partner corporations are winning under this regime. But, as long as the people are either too ignorant or too passive to rebel, this will continue. Conformity to the status quo is the great crime of the 21st century.
"But is the political system in either country so much more corrupt than in Berlusconi-tainted Italy or cash-for-honours Britain?
Yes. To a degree that this argument is utterly rediculous. Anyone who has spent five minutes in Bulgaria (I cannot say about Romania) would know this to be the case. Still, why let the bleeding obvious get in the way of a good rant eh?
But communist rule ended more than 16 years ago - can it really still be blamed for the problems of today?
Again, yes. European imperialism is still regularly bandied around (with varying degrees of accuracy) as being at fault for many of Africa's problems. Imperialism ended some time before communist rule ended, and its effects are still being felt, QED: the same is probably true of communism.
It is essential for western neoliberals to deny any achievements of the system that half of Europe lived under...
Really? They achieved so much that the people of Berlin, who could see how both sides of the Iron curtain lived, had to be prevented from emigrating by constructing a wall defended by soldiers, machine-guns, etc. and that the populations of eastern Europe overthrew their governments as soon as the risk of a crushing military retaliation was removed. It is a shame that those living behind the Iron curtain did not have you to advise them; they could have learned that their desire for a better life was in fact merely western propaganda designed to denigrate the systems that successfully turned their countries into economic wastelands.
n Britain we are told ad infinitum that ""our way"" is the best and the east irredeemably backward. Why, then, do we need to import railway engineers from Romania?
Because they are able to do the job and, after 40 years of Soviet communism, they are willing to work for peanuts compared to their counterparts in the UK, who did not have the dubious of living under Soviet communism for 40 years.
Why, if our dental system is so superb, are we flying out to use the services of Hungarian dentists?
Because they are able to do the job and, after 40 years of Soviet communism, they are willing to work for peanuts compared to their counterparts in the UK, who did not have the dubious of living under Soviet communism for 40 years.
The east-west divide and the xenophobia that accompanies it will only end when there is a more honest, balanced appraisal of the legacy of communism and an acknowledgment that despite the lack of political freedoms there were also solid achievements.
No doubt there were, but your arguement goes out of its way to avoid acknowledging the elephant in the corner - that life on the eastern side of the Iron Curtain was a pretty grim affair, that most people were desperate to escape, and many were willing to risk their lives rather than continue their life there. Calling for an 'honest debate' when selectively cherry-picking from the facts to suit your argument is hilariously silly.
The so called 'socialism' that you mistakenly refer to should be more correctly be called a totalitarian dictatorship, with a side of communist propaganda. This is in the worst tradition of the British left, who preffered to speak up in defence of Stalin during his time, than of the population he brutalised, whom they argued, were having a smashing time."
"At the risk of being lynched by those who think that no good could ever have come from communism in the former eastern block, I would suggest that another reason why the level of education - GENERAL education, it must be stressed - is better, is something to do with the fact that kids weren't being bombarded with advertising and consumer goods all the time, distracting them and making them feel different, jealous, etc.. This does not really apply in many of these countries any more although they have not quite reached the level of commercial saturation that the UK or the US has.
(A brief aside - one of the things that I find the saddest about the changes which have happened in Poland, even in the eight years I have known the country, is the way that popular culture has been literally swamped by US (and to an extent British) music/films/media etc. This is the other side of the coin which you won't find mentioned in a report on economics, education or migration.)"
"The reasons for the mass exodus of eastern Europeans to the west are higher wage rates and greater employment opportunities. Western Europe has higher wage rates precisely because of its capitalist system being able to allocate capital to more productive uses than the command and control economies of the former eastern block. The introduction of neo liberal policies in the new EU states is allowing their GDP to grow at some of the fastest rates in the world, far exceeding the west. If this continues, the living standards of Eastern Europe will be comparable to that of the west within a generation.
I do not know what alternative system the author has in mind that would produce even higher growth rates. Socialism certainly would not."
"We seem to be agreed that schools in the former socialist countries were pretty good. Doubtless we can similarly agree that the Third Reich was not only pretty good at building motorways but also that it oversaw much valuable research into both the advantages of natural foods, the relationship between the environment and good health and the dangers of passive smoking, as detailed in Robert N Proctor's book, 'The Nazi War on Cancer'.
What of it?"
Clark is right is highlighting the success of Central and Eastern Europe. I worked as a teacher there, and the system would bring a tear to the eye of those advocating grammar schools, the three Rs, chalk and talk methods etc. In Lithuania, there have actually re-introduced selective grammar schoold in the last 10 years, replacing comprehensives with German-stule Gymnasium. Pupils still stand when the teacher enters the room, learn poetry by heart, are very good at mental arithmetic etc, and give flowers to their teacher at the start of the year. There is a down-side. They all cheat ( I wish this was a baseless generalisation but, to my despair, I couldn't fight it). The only reason that life is "better" in the UK is money. Pure and simple. British food? Mother's at home is far better. Culture? There is no dumbing down there. Scenerey? I prefer the Polish, Romanian mountains. Only money is bringing here, and good luck to them I say. Britain is the richer for it.
Interesting article. Firsttimer, Orwellsghost great posts. I'm sure the young wouldn't want a return to communism (don't think anyone was advocating that) but the young usually think they are indestructable. But i'd bet the old or poor or unskilled, those terrorised by criminals and the drug addicts don't feel quite so grateful.
Neil's analysis is spot on, particularly when he talks of the "relentless propaganda extolling the need for further 'reforms' and 'modernisation'". The difficulty in changing things is that the political elite have a vested interested in propogating the lies that more neo-liberalism is the answer, as they know that a nice juicy NATO/World Bank/EU position lies ahead of them, so long as they do what the multinationals and the financial services sector want. If they do tell the truth and try and develop an alternative economic agenda which puts the majority first, they'll probably face sanctions and experience a State Department sponsored 'colour' revolution.
"1) ""One of the reasons that the pro-family (Catholic) party won the elections in Poland is because the demographic crisis is reaching such dangerous proportions that people are becoming more pro-life in their outlook. There is a division in Poland between people who would like it to stay as it is now and those who would like it to become more Catholic""
It is difficult to see how Poland could become more Catholic and there seems to be an entrenched survivalist mentality that creates an irrationalist strain in Polish politics that does not help Poland and that will lead many to repudiate everything about its culture in the long term.
Few could really underestimate the contribution the Catholic Church had in opposing Communism.But it seems to me that by becoming more fundamentally Catholic and trying to maintain a hold over the education system,the Church is stifling and retarding Poland's civic society and culture.My wife tells me that her niece was recently upbraided for not wanting to do her RE homework and that the local priest actually called in her mother to find out why she was neglecting what is now,as a result of Kaczynski's government, her compulsory religious instruction.I can't blame her.
Indeed, a lot of Catholic teaching in Poland does not teach you how to approach ethical issues or free thought.It is all about stale catechism and institutional inertia as well as careerism and power hunger.Telling the young to use the rhythm method of birth control is simply ridiculous,as is forcing young women into getting married as early as possible without letting them live their lives first.It has just lead to a high divorce rate,a feeling of claustrophobia and an inability to face the future that results in precisely the low birth rates the Church bemoans.People will only have children in Poland to replace its declining population when they can see there is a future and when they can actually afford it.
2)Gombrowicz.
The election of Kaczynski and the Law and Justice Party is an understandable protest vote,but it seems that the EU is associated in the minds of many Poles with an attempt to attack their communities and way of life.A more energetic government would try to find ways of promoting Poland's agrarian communities by asserting Polish interests in Europe,by,for example,trying to promote Polish agricultural produce as a more natural and organic than that produced by factory farming methods in Britain and elsewhere.As you must know,the potatoes and tomatoes in Poland really taste like they ought to.
Secondly,they need to reform the education system and promote the study of subjects that actually matter and to improve the academic standards of traditional subjects so as to prevent the kind of crude utilitarianism we have developed in Britain.The UK is rich enough to allow its youth to take futile degrees that mean nothing,but Poland is not.
Poland seems to create a very intelligent workforce without creating the jobs that match them because the emphasis at university is on cramming as many in as possible where they rote learn facts and theories for numerous exams that they almost invariably have to cheat in if they want to pass.Too few are taught how to think independently and,I'm afraid,it seems to end up creating the kind of snobbery that leads them to feel the world owes them a living and not to think creatively about how to use their knowledge to create jobs and wealth.
Furthermore,a lot of the ""anti-polonism"" you accuse me of on CiF isn't actually from me:it is largely what my Polish wife tells me about the Polish migrant community in London.Going to Catholic churches in Britain isn't going to help them acheive spiritual mastery of their circumstances but just to prop up one of the causes of institutional inertia that has led to their departure from Poland in the first place.There is just a dearth of reasoned and critical thought among the Polish community and quick-get-rich panaceas and daydreaming that will do nothing to develop the country they say they want to return to.This is not the whole story,of course, as many of the skilled and resourceful will take back what they have learnt in Britain to set up their own companies in Poland.A lot of the migration is based on passive despair and not a lot that is positive beyond a merely survival neurosis encouraged by a Catholic Church that has become a parasite on their suffering."
"I am new on Cif, but my other half is also from Eastern Europe, and she has interesting stories about the East Europens in the UK. In general, their experience is as varied as the people, but one uniting factor is money. They come here for money, or "" to improve their economic and professional prospects"" as a think tank would say. There is despair with the economy at home, but more with politics, and they are often surpirised when people in the UK also despair with the government and politicians.
Re educations, my wife could have had a better general education than me, but she specialised early in music, so here musical knowledge is awesome, while her general knowledge lost out. But her relatvies and firends know a freightening amount of general knowledge, hough curiously hardly any have heard of George Orwell, who was banned (Sorry Orwellsghost!!)"
"Orwellsghost tells us that, 'There is just a dearth of reasoned and critical thought among the Polish community and quick-get-rich panaceas and daydreaming that will do nothing to develop the country they say they want to return to'.
That'll certainly make them feel at home here, then, as they do the Lottery, improve their English with 'Hello!' and, quite possibly, audition for Big Brother, won't it? At least they've employed sufficient reasoned and critical thought to come here in search of work in the meantime, rather than sit at home complaining they can't find a job (''cos the foreigners have taken them all').
As to 'Telling the young to use the rhythm method of birth control is simply ridiculous,as is forcing young women into getting married as early as possible without letting them live their lives first,' I remember being told by a Polish friend who was over here back in the early 80s that among her many complaints against the Communist government was that birth control was very difficult to obtain while abortion was comparatively easy; this, she thought, was a deliberate ploy by the government to force people to break with the Catholic Church, then a major oppositional force.
And as for forcing young women into getting married, while I don't know if this was the case in Poland (I suspect it was), certainly a major gripe in the old USSR was that if you wanted to leave the parental home, getting married was the only way of getting an apartment allocated to you. That was why the divorce rate there was so high."
"Orwell's,
(Sorry, I'm being a bit parochial and discussing present day Poland here but...) I go along with you in general in most of what you say, and it's true that the Catholic Church has become a focus for less positive things in Poland, while in the time when Poland was under oppression, one could say that, like in Ireland before it achieved independence, it was a focus for a sense of belonging and community. Of course this is the great irony, that it was the Polish people themselves organised into communities focused around religion, and not the Roman Catholic religion itself which liberated (to an extent) the country. But I think it can be self-defeating to be too condemning of religion. It's better to try and nurture the positive feelings it still arouses, and try to increase the level of critical debate so that some sort of opposition arises from within to challenge the tyrannical doom mongers of the Polish Catholic Church."
"Once again an author with a political idealogy to promote invents some general observations to fit in with his textbook Marxism, while remaining totally ignorant of reality. The economic situation in this part of Europe is, of course, complex. But when someone posts an article like this, which is wrong on so many counts, a balanced response seems rather pointless.
""What the people of the region are in fact escaping from are the consequences of the neoliberal economic policies of the early 90s"". Obviously Clarke has no idea what he is writing about here. Hungary has pursued neoliberal economic policies to a greater degree than Poland and yet Hungarians remain stubbornly reluctant to leave their country whereas hundreds of thousands of Poles have emigrated.
""Away from the glitzy, globalised centres of Budapest, Prague and Warsaw, millions face poverty and hardship in the former communist bloc. GDP in the region fell between 20% and 40% in the decade after 1989, and, while a minority have seen real wages rise since the millennium, for the majority the ""transition"" process has witnessed a spectacular fall in living standards and a massive rise in unemployment and inequality."" Generalisations so vague that it is hard to prove or disprove them. But they certainly do not apply to Hungary - real wages have increased since 1990, unemployment is low, and inequality is little more evident now than in the communist era.
""The irony is that far from being backward, eastern Europe, thanks to the residual effects of 40 years of socialism, still puts much of western Europe (particularly Britain) to shame when it comes to the quality of its education, public transport and healthcare."" I'm sure the vast majority of Eastern Europeans would gladly swap their systems with those in Britain. Education here is rather mixed. Eastern European universities still produce good quality engineers and scientists, but they fail in other areas. Ever tried using a lawyer here? Have you ever tried public transport away from the ""glitzy, globalised centres of Budapest, Prague and Warsaw""? It sucks, which is why so many Eastern Europeans have bought cars even though they can barely afford them. A quick glance at public health statistics is enough to show that something is going wrong with healthcare in the region.
""Why, if our dental system is so superb, are we flying out to use the services of Hungarian dentists?"" Because they are cheaper.
""And why are English teacher-training establishments showing videos of Hungarian maths classes?"" The Hungarian education system is based around rote learning, which is exactly what is needed for mathematics. On the other hand, it is disastrous for teaching languages, hence Hungarians' poor foreign language skills."
Excellent and overdue article. It is exactly what is happening in the countries that have turned their backs on Communism. Romania is an extreme case to site. Causcescu, after all, was an honoured guest of Her Majesty, while he was in power and his people were on the very edge of existence. The other countries of Eastern Europe had a slightly better way of life while Yugoslavia was a very much more liberal country. All these countries are in the same poverty trap now. Their state owned industry sold off for a song. Standard of living has plummeted and that is why the young and talented are leaving these countries in droves. The middle class has collapsed and all there is now are the ultra rich (very questionable source of wealth) and the extremely poor masses.
Can anyone else here read the press in Eastern Europe, and have they noticed how the debate over immigration is exactly replicated there. In the Polsih, Lithuanian case, in my experience, commentators and journalists make exactly the same type of comments about immigrant Belarussian, Ukrainian, Central Asian, Caucasian etc immigrant workers, which are beginning to be recruited in ever larger numbers by large employers in Poland and Lithuania, eg supermarket chains, large manufacturers. Exactly the same worries about pushing wages down, housing problems, loss of culture and way of life as non-Poles/Lithuanians, langague problems. There are complaints about asylum seekers, about Chinatowns emerging in parts of citites. All exactly the same as in the UK.
Karmen, if, as you say, 'it took far less than 16 years for those "bloody" communist regimes to fix and restore them [E.European countries ravaged by WW2]and build up strong economies,' what went so badly wrong that the economies all collapsed in the late 1980s, thus leading to the collapse of the regimes and all the consequences you so deplore?
"I can understand why young Poles want to leave Poland, and it is due to the current ANTI communist government. (Many of them were involved with Solidarity and the anti-communist movement).
Lech Kaczynksi presides over a dour authoritarian government, which has seen the country go from relatively liberal, to over-policed, in the four years I have been going there.
Having had a period of autocratic former communists in power (Aleksander Kwasniewski _pres replaced Lech Walesa 1995), who none the less persued economic reform and captalist policies, the Poles now find themselves with a pary more alligned to the Catholic church than any other idealogy.
In addition to the much derided Kaczynski brothers (often parodied as ""ducks"" eg. Kaczki) _ they have also seen two nationalistic and populist parties brought into mainstream politics.
Much to educated Poles disgust, Andre Leper recently became vice premier. (This is a man who has been described as ""the most dangerous politician in Europe and is widely regarded as an opportunistic thug and cretin).
What this means on the street is a profusion of over attentive police and tightening of law and order. For example, posession of small ammounts of cannabis have been reclassified to be a serious crime, and Kaczynski (while major of Warsaw) described the organizers of the banned gay pride march as ""perverts"".
Such gay protestors are regularly beaten to within an inch of their lives by baton weilding riot police for merely wearing eyeliner in public, and the Polish government have been criticised by human rights watch for this vile homophobia.
In all this has created a feeling of desperation in the young, and an understandable desire to leave (when the opportunity arose) to the country most young Poles admire. This country is Britain.
If anything, we are seeing the success of the marketing activities of the British council. (I was particularly impressed by the efforts of the BC in Vilnius, Lithuania. It gave the impression that Britain is all Craig David and free internet access. It is without doubt calculated to encourage young people to come to the UK).
I personally wanted to stay in Poland, but have been scared off by what is rather like Eighties conservative Britain, all moralizing, except without the economic reform or accumen.
I am English."
"Karmen, why don't you and Neil Clark back up your statements by providing sources?
I used the data that I had available to me and it only went back to the 1990s. If you have something older then please post it.
I was able to find one source that mentions GDP in Poland is higher now than it was in 1989:
+++++++++++++++++ ""A moderate recovery during 1992-94 was followed by robust growth (the fastest in Central Europe) during 1995-99 that was driven by a rapid expansion of the new private sector. Poland's GDP was 20 percent larger in 1999 than in 1989."" http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2000/09/balcerow.htm +++++++++++++++++"
"hfakos, your comment has the ring of truth about it and I think it is time to post it again. Wait until your education system is as run down as it is in underclass USA and watch the religious fairytales flourish. Of course, if you talk of class in the US you are branded a communist. And so it goes... Your words below:
hfakos August 29, 2006 02:24 AM
I am a Hungarian, who went to the US to get my master's and Ph.D. The analysis of the article is correct. Pretty much everything collapsed after 1990, including higher education and R&D funding. Our industry has been almost completely privatized, meaning sold to foreign capital. We are witnessing the last push of selling public services (mass transportation, electricity and gas grid, health care, and postal service). There is nothing more to sell after this. The irony is that under ""communist"" rule and Soviet orientation the country had much more independent capabilities (industry, army, etc.) to function and survive than now. We have gained some political independence, but that is still very limited (for example, see how Hungary could not stay out of Iraq or Afghanistan and compare how the Soviets could not force us to participate in their Afghan invasion in 1979). Very few people say we should go back to the pre-1990 system. However, the transition to ""democracy"" and capitalism was competely screwed up. Of course, it takes two to tango. It required not only a less-than-benevolent West, but also a very naive, short-sighted post-communist ""elite"". This new capitalist ""elite"" is largely the same as the previous communist one. For all practical purposes Hungary and its fellow ex-Soviet bloc countries are satellites of the West. We should have introduced protectionist policies at the beginning to strengthen our economies and then slowly open up our markets. Joining NATO and the EU were also rushed. Now the West is paying the price by being flooded by Eastern workers. You reap what you sow."
"""I can understand why young Poles want to leave Poland, and it is due to the current ANTI communist government. (Many of them were involved with Solidarity and the anti-communist movement).In all this has created a feeling of desperation in the young, and an understandable desire to leave (when the opportunity arose) to the country most young Poles admire. This country is Britain.If anything, we are seeing the success of the marketing activities of the British council. (I was particularly impressed by the efforts of the BC in Vilnius, Lithuania. It gave the impression that Britain is all Craig David and free internet access. It is without doubt calculated to encourage young people to come to the UK)"".
Poles come to Britain to make cash not because of some halfwitted corny crooner of kitschy ballads like Craig David.Most of the couldn't give a shit about Britain's tacky showbiz values or the washed out and relentlessly chilled out nature of Phoney Bliar's washed out oceanic pop cult Utopia.This is just the kind of crap only a cool 'n' cocky Brit in Poland could emit as part of the unjustified superiority complex that Brits have about their sterile entertainment economy being some paradigm for Anglobalisation.
Most Central Europeans I've met have a respect for certain aspects of British culture but just seem to see its crap pop culture as entirely bizarre and wholly laughable-especially the Royal Family,Elton John,the ephemeral cult of Diana,and so on."
"NB_ In response to what Richard said about racism directed toward Ukranians, Belarusssians and Russians etc (the true Eastern Europeans) then I have found that to be an oversimplification.
The single most important stragtegic relationship between countries in this region is that of Poland and Ukraine. Historically the Ukraine has been part of a Polish empire and they speak a very similar slavic language. The name means ""on the edge"" (eg of the empire).#
In the same way that our labout market is flooded, Poland is suffering from the brain drain appalingly. Unable to keep it's own doctors, it makes perfect sense to important professionals from further east on a controlled basis.
The reaction to this sort of talk, particularly from older people who remember the second world war is hostile, not because of economics, but the brutality of the removal of Poles from western Ukraine. (It is worth noting the armia krajowa's equally terrible retaliation).
Poland however wasnt also the victim, having foisted most of its previous military expansionism upon the east.
Regardless of old grudges, one thing is certain. The young people of working age can't keep deserting the Poland without dire consequences for the economy. They need fresh blood and fresh skills and Ukranians and Belarusians are willing able and learn Polish quicker than non-slavic speakers do.
Unfortunately for the EU's overall health, this is just the kind of brave decision you won't get with Kaczynski/ Gertich/ Leper who are insular nationalistic goons.
PS As for BELARUS.. I have had the best contact with Belarusians possible. I love them.
The country is a disaster. The president a tyrant. Radioactive. Economy based on arms dealing. Will only cost the EU huge ammounts of money in reconstruction...
But. Who cares? FREE BELARUS ! Belarus before Turkey!"
"The main characteristic of the eastern mafias has to do, as the name suggests that of organized crime,taking crime in its broad sense too, to mean any crime, not only killing but also stealing, etc. It refers to people who are used to move as closed communities who commit these kinds of crimes, generally acting in groups.I am not talking about governments but about communities, ordinary people.But they are not the only ones that move in communities doing things-more-or less serious-that benefit them at the expense of other decent individuals.
But what really surprises me is the question about the consecuences of communism after 16 years which strikes me as showing a complete ignorance of at least common sense knowledge,on the part of the writer of this article.
Only kids who are 16 or younger, coming from those countries, can claim not to have lived under communism, and not being directly influenced by it. But society does not change overnight, and it takes a lot more than 16 years to reorganize a country again and become a democratic society.
The process of internalizing new concepts of life and ideals, even when they might have lied subconciously in many,and become common everyday practice in everyday life takes a lot longer than that.
It is not like changing windows 98 to xp in a computer.
There are changes within the individual and within the society, infrastructure, political and educational too. Is it a surprise that education takes such an important role in communist societies, remember Cuba too? It is not surprising taking into account,precisely, that they did not enjoy other freedoms, or ideals that are shared in free societies that are the reason why other free societies do not see life from a communist point of view and some of them have other ideals."
"Tomaszek,
I think your comments on Andrzej Lepper are overdone slightly,- he's by no means the most dangerous politician in Europe and he is certainly less insidious than the other Deputy Prime Minister, Roman Giertych, who reprsents the ominously-titled 'Leage of Polish Families'.
Giertych and his party are far more sinister and they are symptomatic of a shift to the far right in politics in the former eastern bloc countries which can only be seen as a desire to retreat from the bright glare of the new free markets and free thought/expression which EU membership has brought.
Lepper is a long-time agrarian rabble rouser who has been curiously civilised by his elevation to the position of Agriculture Minister and Deputy PM. These days, I've even heard him talk some sense. For example, he is now going head to head with the government over the 'lustracja' issue, which is the process of investigating politicians for their possible links to secret services during communist times. The government is insisting that people who collaborated should be called 'Soviet spies', while Lepper, defending the farmers interests, is saying that the whole process is worsening Poland's relationship with Russia and will mean mean that Russia imposes even more bans on the import of Polish food products. I think Lepper's right. You shouldn't call someone a 'Soviet spy' for the slightest association with the former security services. And anyway, isn't it a bit bloody late now for all that?"
Thanks to hfakos, Gombrowicz, and Tomaszek for their very informative comments, which have made this thread one worth saving despite the usual wingnut ravings about the evils of Communism (You couldn't get any decent salad at restaurants! The horror!).
"Gombrowicz_ I was just repeating a famour quote about him. To me he is a bit of a joke, but to most of my Polish friends he is a national embarrassement.
Pan. Witold (on the day he becomes vice-presa) ""I am living in a country of idiots and buraki ! That's it, I'm leaving the country"" etc etc.
As for League of Polish fammilies. I had a great conversation with some Gertich wannabes in the rynek in Wroclaw it went like this;
T: (in English) ""Hey you guys don't like europe do you?"" LPR: ""hmm, no."" T: ""Well, did you ever think that the EU was traditionally a private club for the Germans and French"" LPR ""hmm"" T: "" Well it's great becaus now Britain, Poland and Spain can gang up on the Germans"" :D LPR [looks puzzled, hasnt thought about it this way]
Oh, and __Orwell. You have got to stop taking yourself so seriously. I was being facetious about Craig David. But also, I am just recording exactly what I saw. The British council do promote Britain and they were having a little promotional party with free internet and Craig David..
My Polish friends think that things like the Edinburgh Festival are cool. I certainly dont have an;
""unjustified superiority complex [..] about [my] sterile entertainment economy being some paradigm for Anglobalisation""
If that was the case why was I there as a volunteer working in theatres? They have a creative life which puts the French ""cultural exception"" to shame. [Contemporary art throughout central Europe and the Baltic states is fascinating as well].
I wrote truthfully, of my impressions of living in Poland and of my contact with Poles. I have been to rural Poland. I lived in Legnica. I even went to upper Silesia to help on a project for kids from patholigical fammilies. Alcoholism is a scourge which is destroying communties, with no work and no prospect of work.
I agree that a major factor in the exodus of Poles to the UK and further afield is cash (and Poles will do almost anything in pursuit of cash. Stalin described imposing Communism on Poland as ""trying to fit a saddle on a cow"").
More than money, they are drawn here by the WORK. Poles are hardworking, and sitting around unemployed doesnt suit them."
"Thanks mr. Neil Clark! I not often see so truthful articles in the western press.
Unfortunately you have not mentioned and positive experience of Russia. In difference from the Central European countries (Poland, Romania) to us was possible to not admit sale of the basic strategic objects. We have ceased to follow not competent or harmful advices of IMF and the World Bank, and some governments of countries. For what now on us the western politicians are extremely malicious."
I am really surprised to read so many comments by people who have no idea what life is and was in those countries!!!I live in Bulgaria and I have been living here for the last 33 years since I was born and I remember very well those years and I know they weren't so bad as now the West is trying to present them! especially in Bulgaria life was calm and better organized than the chaos now, and yes we didn't have the freedom of speech and other freedoms but compared to what we got it is worth the sacrifice...what happened after the changes is correctly described in this article. We started servicing other interests from Moscow we went to Brussels and Washington but still it is the same story just the Boss is different. The educational system here is really strong despite the tries of some European countries to ruin it because it is not convenient to the them Bulgaria to produce smart and inteligent people that will not be easily ruled by them. Thanks to the Western European countries everything good from the past was destroyed here of course I admit that our politicans also have fault for that. Reading opinions that are far away from the truth and reality really annoys me so please ladies and gentlemen before you start writing about something you don't know get prepared and check with your own eyes! Don't trust what your politicans and newspapers tell you don't be so naive as that is the biggest advantage of the Eastern European poeple that they are always open-minded and ready to assume that they may not be right and there are other point of views on the same subject and I am sorry to tell you but you have a very constricted outlook about the world and especially about unknown countries where you have never been in your life! And I dare to say that because I know quite enough Western Europeans! I am proud to be Bulgaria and please show some respect to nations that have ancient history,and their own Cyrillic alphabet, language and culture that many other countries can only dream of! And the hystreia going on at the momet in your newspapers about the flood of workers from Bulgaria and Romania is again a propaganda because I have no idea how they are calculating the numbers if no one ever asked me or any of my friends if we want to go and work in the UK??I can assure you that not many people will be happy to go and live there and even if I have another life I will again choose Bulgaria to be my home! Thank you for your time and attention!
"I am from Bulgaria.
_AT_fish73 ""I know they weren't so bad as now the West is trying to present them! ... and yes we didn't have the freedom of speech and other freedoms but compared to what we got it is worth the sacrifice...""
It WAS that bad then! Stop bullshitting us red moron.
The only bad thing now is corruption. The fact is that we expect to get some help from EU dealing with it. Instead we get multinational companies entering our markets, playing the corruption game to start selling junk food as fast as possible. That's the game: for you we are just another column in your regional financial reports."
FAO:SmithBG I am not a red moron and I never was!!!In fact my family had real serious problems in those years and I doubt you had any like this because I have an uncle in the USA so you are from Bulgaria and should know what that means!! But I am tired to listen to unrealistic statements that Bulgaria was a shitty country and not to admit the good sides and what was achieved! after all the infrastructure that we sell now for miserable money to the Western companies was built in those "bad" years! Don't get me wrong I don't want the past to come back all I want is to hear the truth! And if Bulgaria was that bad now I wonder why so many Britsih are crazy about byuing properies here and not only for making money but in fact moving here to live? so please stop screaming that only the red morons can have an opinion that is different from yours!
tomaszek, you are right that my short post simplified the debate about imigration of Russian, Ukraininas etc to Poland, Lithuania, Czech etc. Though I did say that a debate was taking place, therefore there are contrasting viewpoints, and many Poles are friendly to Ukrainians and nostalgic about Polsih culture in the kresy. However, the feelings are not always reciprocated, and many (though not all) Ukrainians and Lithuanians are extremely suspicious about any Polsih influence in those areas. Lithuanians in Vilnius always look worriedly at the Polsih tour buses every summer visitiing Pilsudki's heart in the Rasos cemetary and other Polsih sites in the capital. Some are worried that the Poles "want their houses back." A similar concern exists in relations to Jews. I would guess that you have a Polsih perspective, while mine is more Lithuanian, so they do clash. On the other hand, the Polish government has invested great captial in good political relations with Lith and Ukr (witness the Orange revolution). Generally, there are now labour shortages in the Baltic states and Poland as workers move west, perhaps it could push up wages, thoough this will result in all the Western manufacturers shifting their peoduction from CEE to Asia. I agree that the cultural life in Poland and the Baltics is very strong, and there is no dumbing down, with artists and spectators being very concerned about being kulturny and maintaining a "high level of culture" -- a concept that the PC brigade in the UK wants to do away with.
I forgot to congratulate Mr. Clark for this well written and true article!!!
"Agitpapa misunderstands, I think, the point of newyorkdog's anecdote about not being able to get a decent salad in Prague. The point is that -- incomprehensible though it may be to those of us who had the good fortune to be born in Western Europe -- the basics were in such short supply, or the distribution system was in such chaos, towards the end of Communism that not even people paying hard currency in the top hotels -- which normally got preferential treatment -- could obtain them.
It's doubtless no great matter that a foreigner couldn't obtain the makings of a decent salad, not even for ready valuta, but the implication -- that the makings of a decent salad were, therefore, probably unobtainable anywhere in Prague -- is rather more serious.
I saw this time and again in Russia in the last couple of years before the collapse of communism and the couple of years thereafter. I well recall having coffee at my hotel, the Astoria in Leningrad (as it then was) which was, at the time, one of the best hotels in the country, with a senior chap in the Leningrad oblast's economics department. He was of the same rank as Vladimir Putin, as it happens, and a colleague of his in the Mayor's Office, though in a different section.
Andrei, very embarrassed, asked if I minded him and his interpreter pocketing the packets of sugar that came with the coffee. He explained that the hard-currency hotels were the only places in the city that had had any sugar for two weeks and that his children were really missing the stuff. There were, he said, several freighters in the port full of sugar, but these wouldn't be unloaded for several days because the harbour was in such chaos; his interpreter added that Andrei should know because he was in charge of distributing the sugar, and if he couldn't get sugar for his children, then that meant there was none to be had.
Around the same time, my interpreter there developed conjunctivitis, a not-uncommon but very painful condition, particularly in a Russian winter. Her doctor gave her a list of medicines she might use, if she could find any. As if! She phoned round every pharmacy in the city and every hospital, including the one at which foreigners and party officials were then treated (Hospital Number 8, as I recall), in the city, offering my dollars for anyone who could help (I'd told her she could offer up to $500 -- a month or so's salary, at least, at the then black market rate -- without consulting me) . No luck; we then tried her not-inconsiderable contacts on the Leningrad and Moscow black markets, but there was just none to be had. Nothing.
Eventually, I solved the problem by getting some for her back her in the UK -- for about �25 on a private prescription, as I recall -- and then Fed-Exing it out to her.
What life must have been like for Russians without bolshaya blatt -- a lot of clout -- like Andrei, or those without amiable and generous foreign contacts, like my interpreter, doesn't bear thinking about. I'll never forget the food queues outside the local shops, with people standing outside for hours in a Russian winter in the hope _something_ would be delivered.
Nor, indeed, will I forget, come to think of it, asking a senior local official what on earth was going on over the road, where we could see from her office window the main back office of the Leningrad Gneshnikom Bank, a huge room with about 50-odd desks, almost completely deserted apart from two people running round like lunatics trying to answer all phones,which were clearly ringing off the hook. 'Everyone will be out looking for food in the shops', she explained.
Yes, the privatisations and reforms were botched -- legalised looting by the same apparatchiks who'd run the show before, in many cases -- and, yes, many foreign businesses operated like colonial conquerors and robber barons picking up the spoils of, as they saw it, winning the cold war.
But none of that could have happened had the communist system not collapsed in such chaos. And it collapsed because it didn't work.
Communists used to like to talk about 'scientific socialism'. I suggest that if, whenever it's tried, the experiment leaves the lab in ruins, then most scientists would draw the obvious conclusion."
"To all the reds on here;
The former Soviet Satalites are suffering from one major malaise. Corruption.
This is a disease which took hold rampantly under imposed Communist regimes accross central and eastern Europe.
Jung's observation of Communism is that everyone is equal, but equally nothing.
In this atmosphere of frustrated ambition, honest drives for success become a desire for remuneration through back-handers and manipulation of the system. Indeed it is the only way to subsist.
When todays Polish engineer must factor 10% into a quote for work for local authorities, there are implications for this economy. This 10% is also, I would argue, a residue of the former system.
Sure public transport is good, of course the universities are well tutored and full of talent but dont make apologies for the starved earth of the farms and the lumbering industy left behind by the communists.
I notice a few comments on here dangerously close to denying the Stalinist attrocities in the Ukraine before the second world war. In case you are in any doubt about how low communism stooped, try asking a Ukranian.
They starved people to death in their millions.
Stalin did more than just murder people, he tried to exterminate cultures, and was an accomplice to the Nazi invasion.
Fuck communism."
"tomaszek,
Poland was notorious for its corruption and its petty self-destructive squabbles between feudal factions for centuries before the Soviet occupation. I say occupation and not communism because Poles were too rural and feudal to become communists in the Marxist sense. For Poland a Mao would have been more appropriate than a Stalin.
However it is a fact that the dictatorship of the proletariat became to a certain measure a dictatorship of the nomenklatura. There are several reasons for this. The first historical reason is Trotsky's war communism that treated the working class and the worker soviets with utmost contempt, a contempt that turned into murder at Kronstad. The revolution was betrayed by the traitor Trotsky in its infancy and the rot began to set in.
The second historical reason is that the USSR never got the chance to develop under normal condition but under a constant state of siege by imperialist powers and three devastating wars against communism, first the counterrevolutionary war of the Whites accompanied by British and US invasion attampts, then the Nazi invasion, then the Cold War, which was a covert and proxy war that lasted 40 years. This constant state of siege not only necessitated oppressive security measures but caused deprivation, inviting black market and corruption.
The third reason is the harebrained speech by Kruschev at the 20th congress of the CPSU that undermined the legitimacy of the Soviet state by depicting the leader who had defeated nazism and made the USSR a world power as a petty tyrant. It was inevitable that after that morale-wrecking speech, cynicism and individualism would set in, corrupting what remained of socialist solidarity."
"Stalin was a murdering bastard.
At Katyn he had the officers, and conscript officers of the Polish army killed to try and emasculate Poland and make them malliable.
If Poland was ""backward"" then that evil bastard did everything is his power to erase any flicker of then emmerging nation, and the potential it showed..
The major problem with seeing Poland as a rural wasteland is that the Russian, Germans and Habsburgs had carved the country up between them for generations.
It is also pretty patronising, to not recognise the economies that existed and continue to exist in the regional capitals, Gdansk, Krakow, Lwow / Wilno / Wroclaw etc. All of which were stunted by communism and now flourish, regardless of the exodus for higher wages.
As for the Soviets being under siege, this much is true, but you can also judge a man by his reactions in adversity. Killing the intellectuals is all rather to Pol Pot for my tastes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Swianiewicz"
"Two World Wars, a Soviet occupation and the subsequent communist regime nearly destroyed the Romanian economy and society. What happened after December 1989 did not help either. As regards working abroad, i do believe that this serves both the interests of the immigrants (obviously), and those of their employers. I was highly amused by the fact that an UK business association chose to issue a public letter requesting the UK government to not put a block to the immigration from Romania and Bulgaria.
By the way, I cannot speak for others, but I would not be interested to come in the UK and ""work for peanuts"". This I can do here in Romania. Some newspaper columnist did an interesting calculation according to which somebody earning in the UK let’s say �1,200 would be able to send back home around � 200 – I can put aside the same amount without much trouble."
To Reconquista - just realised your source of information is the CIA. Is that all you have to back up your arguments? I think you'll have to do better than that if you want people to take your points seriously. It is a well known fact even in the Western world that the CIA statistics cannot be anything but biased. It is not in their interest to be even handed. East Europeans are brought up to read between the lines and hardly even take things at face value. Sorry, you're busted!
"I shared vrd70's amusement that the Business for New Europe Group should call on the government to allow unrestricted immigration from Romania and Bulgaria when they join the EU next year, since the government can't stop it. Any EU citizen can come and go freely in any EU country, after all.
What the BNEG want, quite rightly, is for immigrants from Romania and Bulgaria who want to work to be allowed to work legally rather than be forced to work illegally, which is what workers from the new EU countries are doing in places where they can't legally work and what the Romanians and Bulgarians who choose to exercise their right to come here will do to support themselves if they can't legally work.
What amuses me is that people who call themselves 'Conservatives' and claim to believe in 'the free market' should, in effect, be horrified at the proposition that someone who's here legally and who wants to work and pay taxes should be forbidden so to do if there's someone prepared to give him a job at the market rate and should think, rather, that it's preferable to set up some vastly expensive and intrusive system of policing that'll attempt, unsuccessfully, to prevent him from working anyway."
"Spencer ... you mean that the source Reconquista quotes for Polish unemployment figures cites among its sources (not as the source of the unemployment figures, mind you) the CIA World Factbook? Oh dearie me. That certainly calls everything into question, doesn't it?
Surprisingly enough, though, their figures are remarkably similar to those published by the Polish Government at http://www.stat.gov.pl/english/dane_spol-gosp/praca_ludnosc/stopa_bezrobocia/index.htm which is doubtless where the CIA World Factbook took them from in the first place. The factual parts of it in the country entries are a digest of the country's own official statistics, as any fule kno. Alternatively, you could check the figures on Eurostat's website -- they've got a wealth of data by country for the past 10 years or so."
"Spencer: ""To Reconquista - just realised your source of information is the CIA. Is that all you have to back up your arguments? I think you'll have to do better than that if you want people to take your points seriously. It is a well known fact even in the Western world that the CIA statistics cannot be anything but biased."" ------------------------
The CIA World Fact Book, in spite of your scepticism, is one of the most reliable sources of information on the economy and health of nations around the world.
As mentioned by NotSaussure, they usualy obtain their information from the countries in question or from internation organizations.
If you would prefer another source of information on life expectancy and infant mortality I can do that for you.
World Health Organization: Poland: http://www.who.int/whr/2004/annex/country/pol/en/ Czech Republic: http://www.who.int/whr/2004/annex/country/cze/en/ Hungary: http://www.who.int/whr/2004/annex/country/hun/en/ Bulgaria: http://www.who.int/whr/2004/annex/country/bgr/en/
I don't just pull figures from anywhere. The reliabilty of information is important to me."
"To see what honest journalists you have and how the press is doing its sick propaganda attacks against Bulgaria and Romania you can check this out:
http://standartnews.com/en/article.php?d=2006-08-31&article=445
If you want to ruin the image of a country you can alsways do that! I wonder how these people sleep at night probably the Western world doesn't know what conscience is!"
Dear Neil, I was disappointed to see that "Both Bulgaria and Romania are routinely portrayed as backward, mafia-ridden hell-holes that will infect the rest of the continent come January 1." I hope you won't be angry if I tell you that, as an Eastern European who lives in Sweden, I have grown to see the EU as an infected place: people more and more brainwashed, youth who resemble animals in their behaviour and even in their speech, and this has absolutely nothing to do with Eastern Europe. I have not met such people in my country, and I do think that Romania and Bulgaria should be begged to enter such a rotten place like the EU. To degenerate as human beings for the sake of economic growth? No thanks. Best regards, M.
"The problem this government has is that it wants to play to the Daily Heil gallery on the issue, but knows full well it is a complete irrelevance in the bigger picture.
The only way to cap immigration easily is to put in place harsher restrictions on the kind of law abiding hard working immigrant with skills that we want to attract. The illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers that are so beloved of the loons that fixate on the issue make up a tiny minority of the population, cost a fortune to chase down and eject and are so small in number that it simply isn't cost effective to do so. However much the right wing media might froth about it, paying millions of pounds to evict 15 people from the country while unemployment is going through the room and our deficit is getting worse would lead to electoral disaster next time around, and the tories know it. Better to pursue the same policies that the Labour government did on the quiet and sack a civil service middle manager or two if anyone gets to hear about it."
"The problem with immigration for work is the one that concerns me the most.
My reason is that where most other countries give a hoot about their young and thus educate them and employ them.
OUR youngsters have
1/ Health and safety regime that prevents them so much as climbing trees or playing conkers, and so inhibits personal development
2/ Univeristies that while still reeling from decades of underfunding continue to focus on reasearch and yet charge the most in the world to our students.
3/ The most psychologically toxic environment imaginable.
4/ Housing costs that are amongst highest in the world
5/ Access to transport costs that ARE the highest in the world
6/ Successive governments who care much much more about politics than they do about children and who if they see anything successful from the opposite party will scrap it to prevent it being seen as an achievement and to save money for the next war.
7/ Rampant consumerism
8/ An economy focussed exclusivly on London and its egocentric financial services
Essentially it adds up to no education and no motivation for our kids, no money and unpraralleled start up costs to work for our kids
against the cream of a global workforce who are educated, motivated and previously employed and driving workers self selecting as the highest motivated by the act of immigration itself
and to top it all off the Guarduianista`s are determnined that there should be absolutely no bias in favour of our kids.

I think we`r very lucky they don`t work in nursing homes...otherwise they might treat their elders (who voted for this situation) with contempt!"
That's roof not room.
1,100,000 unemployed British 16 to 24 year olds
"As you probably saw, the overnight figures suggest that net immigration – the difference between those coming in and leaving – rose to a record 250,000 in the last year, chiefly because fewer people left rather than more arrived, a figure that remains stable just below 600,000. That's returning Brits of one kind of another as well as people coming to work or settle.
I wonder when it will dawn on them that attempting to reach a target on net migration is bound to fail for the simple reason that you can't control how many leave the country. Or for that matter, as you pointed out, control those British who are returning.
I wouldn't listen too closely to MigrationwatchUK either - an organisation which is supposed to cover the whole of the UK which draws a comparison of England with other 'crowded' countries isn't to be trusted to be quite honest."
Where did you get the nationality details for youth unemployment? (assuming you haven't just invented them for your own ends).
"Response to RogerOThornhill, 25 November 2011 2:44pm
Most of the immigrants, over 90% are going to England, so that's an important consideration. England is more than twice as densly populated as Scotland so again immigration has a higher impact."
Damn right. After all that bluster about Labour operating an open door policy, after 18 months in power they find themselves beating labour's record on net migration! Maybe it's not quite as simple as they led us to believe.
"Response to deptfordog, 25 November 2011 3:43pm
It's very simple. Both Labour and Tory governments are in favour of the EU, Shengen and cheap labour. The only difference is that, because of their back benchers and voters, the Tories dare not include that in their manifesto."
How often do you meet a local who wants a low end service job? Some call it fecklessness but I understand their sentiment. Every kid born and raised in the richest countries is bombarded with the official line that their abilities and prospects are high, they are heavily invested with a public education that (whatever its faults) is envied by most of the world, and they live in a stream of consumerist media that defines the good life as more and better things. Do you expect them to settle for Starbucks? Let us call a spade a spade - these are third world jobs now. Don't resent the people who take them.
"A great article which points out an unpalatable truth. Our economy relies on a high level of inflows and outflows of people and capital. Businesses require investment links with abroad, universities are reliant on foreign students etc. We basically have to be a country open to the world, where people can come and invest, can share expertise, build links to sell stuff overseas.
Now the only way to make sure that you have high flows but get exactly who you want in and keep out who you don't is to have a greatly increased border force (and those who process those who overstay) and much greater capacity, so you can do all your checks without people waiting for hours, and so that you can find more people who go AWOL.
Now I'm not saying what the right level of immigration is, but what you can't do is want an export led recovery declaring Britain 'open for business' and get tough on immigration without greatly increasing the resources you use to discriminate between those you do want here and those you don't. In other news, Tories cut border force by 5,000 and manage to piss those left off."
"Response to JohnCan45, 25 November 2011 4:01pm
It is about time we taught our young people the truth. They can't have it all, this country is f*cked, so they should take any work they can, and accept their lot."
"Migrationwatch get its figures from the government and has no political agenda and if you look at the website its mainly an access to news articles on the subject - so I personally think it is trustworthy - they are just stating UNCOMFORTABLE facts!
its all acedemic anyway - for all the talk over the last 5 years they have let in a record number this year!
So much for politicians listening to the British public - they listen more to Europe"
"Response to Existangst, 25 November 2011 4:20pm
Is that the lot you accepted?"
"Response to Existangst, 25 November 2011 4:20pm
That sort of thinking is going to kill off the Xfactor you know... we can all be superstars apparently."
"The anti immiigration policy espoused by the Tories was always attractive only to half wits and Daily Mail readers. The pigeons are coming home to shit right on the heads of the half wits , the Daily Mail readers and , as an unintended consequence , on the Libe Dems who actually had an intelligent immigration policy which they abandoned at the first whiff of power and money.
and , check my posts , I told you so....."
"Immigration: ping-pong Poms and the numbers conundrum
Michael White: The coalition's troubles with getting a grip on immigration remind ministers how much is beyond their control
Since 1997 immigration has been rather more of a distinct PONG.
It most definitely stinks.
With respect to Michael White who I regard as a very good journalist, if we play by the old rules of the EU we will get swamped in every possible meaning of the word.
Control of one’s national borders are not beyond the government control, if they the government have the right resolve (they surely have the national cross party support of voters).
More people enter UK from the EU then Brits going to any single EU nation.
As more and more of the EU experiment comes apart, the UK needs to protect its national interest in respect of jobs, housing and access to public services and what often French politicians have called, access to overly generous benefits (which is saying something) in comparison to other nations.
If we do not protect ourselves the same will happen to the UK that was deliberately engineered to occur under New Labour. Race and multiculturalism became their Trojan Horse to effect societal change – any criticism of what was happening was intentionally met with insincere cries of RAcIsT and LiTtlE ENGladDEer – to stop any open and honest debate and criticism of what was happening.
Under New Labour 2.2. million entered the UK, the largest influx of foreign nationals in our entire history.
(over half were non-EU immigrants, majority from the third world and over 75% of all immigrants were semi/low/no skilled workers).
What chance our millions of unemployed rotting away on the welfare system.
Still, when 80% of enthinc minorities are known to vote labour (1st, 2nd 3rd generations onwards) Labour were never going to seriously object.
However, if during 13 years of New Labour time in office, 80% of white Polish Christians Catholics (1 million plus in the UK) were ready to vote Conservative, I am quite sure New Labour would have put in the same controls other EU nations did to stop influxes of labour across the EU.
The British governments priority is to safeguard the UK’s national interest.
Not to indulge the failing EU dream of unworkable integration or to make it easier for Poly Tongbee & David Walkerjet around Euroland, to pass through customs with the same currency as they fly off to her Mediterranean retreat (Tuscany villa in Italy) to give up considered thought about overpaid bankers and the gulf between the rich and ordinary people.
Vociferor Decerno"
"But the figures are guesses. My two children have emigrated permanently, one to Australia one to Spain. they haven't had to tell anyone that they have gone. my son still has UK credit cards and my daughter a house.
Apparently the figures come from a survey of 1in 500 passengers but when my son went he didn't know how long he was going to stay for."
"What is the point of building new houses and creating new jobs, if this will simply attract more East Europeans to the UK, making it even more unbearably crowded than it has become?
The number of East European (and other EU) undergraduates at the Scottish University I work at is staggering. I'm not surprised. People quickly realise they can sign up for a course free of charge, enjoy the subsidised sport and clubs and learn English at the same time.
If I was in their shoes, I would be on the phone to my friends back in Poland telling them what a great deal the UK is.
If we cannot control our borders, I want out of the EU. This is becoming the main policy that determines how I vote.
Guardian reader since '85."
"I shall probably get called a racist for this but, what the hell, I need to say it as it is worrying me.
All my life I have had an interest in other cultures and peoples from different parts of the world. For many years I'm well travelld, linguistic and cosmopolitan in tastes.
I live in the UK and made many friends throuigh my work as a teacher of ESOL.
But for the last few years something has gradually changed in me. I live in a suburb of greater London which has a high level of immigration and when I go out I have feelings of resentment. The ""foreign"", the ""other"" is no longer fun. I feel my own culture and its values are disappearing. I neither feel at home or abroad, it's just a homogenised, alien mess. A bus-ride is like being in the tower of Babel. Even the students complain that, in the streets, no-one speaks English.
Not so long ago I thought UKIP were the BNP in blazers. Now, I can't wait to vote for them next time .As with the struggle to conserve the world's flora and fauna I feel just as desperate about the endangered British way of life."
"""I shall probably get called a racist for this but, what the hell, I need to say it as it is worrying me.
All my life I have had an interest in other cultures and peoples from different parts of the world. For many years I'm well travelled, linguistic and cosmopolitan in tastes. I've even been to Oxford.
I live in Scotland and have made many friends through my work as a teacher.
But for the last few years something has gradually changed in me. I live in central Edinburgh which has a high level of immigration from England and when I go out I have feelings of resentment. Being ""British"", being part of ""the UK"" is no longer fun. I feel my own culture and its values are disappearing. I neither feel at home or abroad, it's just a homogenised, alien mess. Its like living in East-enders or Corrie. A bus-ride is like being in the tower of Babel. Its Yahh this and Yahh that, when its not Estuary English.
At least I can understand what the Poles, Italians, Iraqi's and Bangladeshis are saying.""
This of course is satire, for the which the English are - quite rightly famous - but remember what you sow you shall reap..........."
"donafugata, I like that post very much.
Gallach, if you resent the English, move to another city in Scotland. It's a fact that Edinburgh is full of the worst sort of public-school silver-spooners that England produces. Most people in England can't stand these people either."
It's not complicated at all if you take the right decisions ie leave the EU and tell the Sir Humphrey's to do what they are told!
"Response to philstyle, 25 November 2011 5:02pm
I don't think these people want to be superstars. They just want to be able to afford to rent and have a more than poverty line existence. On a minimum wage in London a young man has zero prospects of finding a girl, settling down and starting a family."
"Response to qckfox, 25 November 2011 4:49pm


MigrationWatch take official figures and torture them in ways that makes any statistician cringe. For example, in their analysis of the net contribution to the economy of immigrants they count all under 16s born overseas as immigrants, but as soon as they hit tax paying age they suddenly become non-immigrant. People employed to produce these reports are likely highly skilled and educated, but with no scientific integrity. It's shameful.


So a website that cherry picks (that's bad) newspaper articles (that's a very bad source too) is deemed trustworthy?
Really??


This is simply not true. Net migration may be at its highest, immigration is not.
Then again, looking at the comments, many of the most popular comments are not supported by official figures, but anecdotes and perceptions trump anything."
"Response to tankerton, 25 November 2011 5:53pm
I presume Tankerton knows no British people with holiday homes in Bulgaria or other European countries? I also guess he regularly lectures his friends for pricing natives in these places out of a home. I'm sure he does! And when he asks to be out of the EU, I hope is no hypocrite and also wants all British people living in Europe to have to return home, including the couple of million retired on the costas.
Any fool can see freedom of movement is not one-way. There was a lady posted on a thread a while back whose daughter wanted to train as a vet in order to take over a family practice. She couldn't get a place on the absurdly competitive courses here so took a place in Romania. She'll graduate with a qualification recognised throughout Europe and with less debt. I know plenty of parents considering sending their offspring to Belgian, German or Dutch universities when the fees kick in. It all cuts both ways."
"_AT_Tankerton - Mmmm the fact that you like donafugata's post - with all its implicit ""I'd like to be a normal guardian reader but all these strange foreign folk freak me out"" but have a complete satire bypass with my rather weak attempt at humour does kind of say it all.
You are a Daily Mail Reader, and proud.
But just not out yet. Obviously.
And I don't live in Edinburgh, but I do love the fact that its full of people of all sorts of origins that will be eligible to vote in Scotland's referendum on Independence cos they live here. And I love the fact that folk who are born all over the Globe yet who live in Scotland have a say in its future. Even the English....
And that's the key - if you live in Scotland, and are registered to vote here, you're Scottish, if you want to be. F**K ethnicity, its about family and belonging.
And I'd be happy to discuss further with you when you get over your complete humour bypass, but I'm not holding my breath."
"Response to AGreenup, 25 November 2011 3:59pm
Ah right. That must be why we aren't in Shengen then."
"Response to AGreenup, 25 November 2011 3:12pm
That suggests that the lack of a decent regional policy is as much a problem as immigration, doesn't it?
Wouldn't that be true of other countries as well? I think West Germany is a fair bit more populated than East Germany? Do Migrationwatch break German population density down? Maybe they should go further and talk about Saxony, Bavaria etc."
"Immigration isnt hard to control its about having the will and resources which hasnt been forthcoming from any body in Westminister . It played a major role in Labour losing the last election and not just the arrogant rubbish eminating from Browns mouth . You cannot call people little englanders ,Daily Mail readers , or racist anymore and expect to shut them up about this subject .
This country has been abused by many asylum seekers and people from the poorer parts of Europe . Every thing from healthcare to crminals avoiding being deported because of their human rights being in danger . It needs to be solved as a problem otherwise it will fester and breed more resentment than it already does which is considerable ."
"A post at the end of a dormant thread generates 22 recommends and counting? Wow. You rallied the troops nicely from whatever forum you usually poulate.
For information, immigration was not the major issue you suppose it was at the last election. Only 14% of people rated it as ""very important""; most were more concerned with the economy, healthcare and education.
(I'll break with tradition and back up a claim which I haven't invented with a credible source:)
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/News/General_Election_2010-An_Overview.PDF"
"For those who are in UK - stay and contribute
For those who are in Poland - stay and contribute
For the rest - go to Germany"
and contribute :)
"My son has a Polish wife, and does not intended to remain in UK.
One of the principal determiners for him is what he considers to be the very poor quality of state education in Britain."
These things do make a difference. A typical Polish house is much bigger than a British one (which in size are like Polish flats). That makes it much easier to work from home as there's plenty of space for an office and so on. Also the rules are much laxer on what kind of business you can run from home. Then there's the fact that each summer you're guaranteed to get a few long, dry sunny periods. That means you can take advantage of the landscape parks which tend to surround Polish cities, with their walking and biking trails, canoeing routes, forests, and lakes - then come home and get the barbecue on.
"Sajetan, if you swapped ""Poland"" for, say, Australia, your comment would be just as good and the omission of the freezing Polish winter wouldn't be a problem!
Polish houses might tend to be big (by UK standards), but the flats tend to be tiny. Millions of families live in 2-bedroom 60 square metre apartments in charmless tower blocks, mum & dad sleeping on the convertible couch in the living room.
Anyway, good article. Everyone in the EU should feel chuffed at how fast Poland is reaching parity. The Poles over here will be missed if they do go back home, but good luck to them."
"I like Poland, live in Germany, and my other half is Polish. (Yes, it works the other way for western European women, we expect our Polish guys to move up to our western European expectations of living standards, we would not dream of moving down to theirs). I see Brits and Poles are culturally well attuned. Something to do with being either side of the feather-bedded European welfare states perhaps, more need to push on independently.
But, yes, a lot of that description about decent weather and space is normal for central Europe. Same in Frankfurt or Zürich or Vienna or Rome or Barcelona or wherever. (And yeh, in Germany, I always forget to mention the - 15 winters as soon as the sun comes out).
Polish cities, being in such a large land mass, also have a big issue about geographic isolation. Aside from Warsaw, it takes ages to get to another European city from Krakow by train (Lvov, Bratislawa. Vienna, Minsk etc are at least 10 hours away). The neighbouring countries to the east are also hardly appealing options, indeed most are not ""options"" at all. I suspect that could be a driver for young kids to explore more widely (like a lot of Aussies and Kiwis come to Europe)."
"""My son has a Polish wife, and does not intended to remain in UK.
One of the principal determiners for him is what he considers to be the very poor quality of state education in Britain.""
He'd probably do better with his GCSEs if he wasn't married."
"JamesPI
Well, I do like the snowy winter. I also spent years living in the blocks and found them preferable to British suburbs, and in many ways better than a big house. And I have no interest at all in living somewhere like Australia, which has nothing to do with this article anyway. But each to their own; I'm glad you're happy there, etc. . . ."
"Sajetan

Each to their own is right - I'm not an Aussie, I just reckon that they're rather lucky to have lovely, warm weather all year round.
Are you still living in an apartment block? They've got their advantages - especially if the location's good - and the people around make all the difference, it's just not my preference to have such limited space. Anyway, I'm not going to rubbish it as I may end up living in Polska, eventually. Glad you're happy, too!"
"JamesPI
I lived in blocks for 5 years, and since they were in a good location with a direct tram to the centre in 10 min, and shops and various other facilities on the doorstep, I enjoyed living there very much and didn't care about the stereotype of grey communist blocks (and I did live in the old grey blocks, not the swanky new ones). The bigger ones have about the same living area as an average British house. But if you have kids, you do feel the pull to move out and have a garden in the suburbs. I made a compromise and got a small house in the city."
"I think that the Polish migration has been the most painless of the waves of migration that characterise Britain- they haven’t become completely integrated but they were never very far from us in a sociological sense, being white Christians.
And where their stricter Catholic morals sometimes clashed with the more secular British society, they confounded with their ‘protestant work ethic’- the worst you could say of them is they had the morals of your own grandparents.
I never had a problem, as a lefty, with the Polish migration, for sure it was a bit of a shock over numbers but I quickly realised that most weren’t putting down roots- they were here to work and accumulate capital for a house back home. Given the UK economy at the time they gave us another few years of ‘boom’ before the bust, and when it did go ‘pop’ many went back home.
I’m no rampant capitalist, but I do think the experience was a ‘win/win’ for everyone [except males under the age of 25 with low academic achievements]. Britain now has even closer ties with Poland on a social level and that can only be good for trade. Those Poles that remain in the UK will be those Poles best able to survive in the UK, they can always come back anyway so there is less of a ‘sticky’ effect with this migration."
I have been here, in Southern Poland, for nearly 2 years. Its wonderful and I would never go back to dirty, corrupt England. There are some real problems here- bureaucracy-yes it took 8 months to move an English cheque into a Polish account (although the Nationwide in the UK took up the first 3...). But there is less pressure, less stupid capitalist excess, and a much more sensible attitude to life overall. The countryside is wonderful, the weather good-even the Polish winter is fun. From -30 to +30 in a couple of months, the public transport is good- buses are plentiful, reliable and cheap. Trains not so good but probably no worse than the UK. Roads are good, cycling better supported. The language is a challenge, but I am getting there slowly, and enjoying the process. At nearly 62 I have found a new life. Heartily recommend it!
"_AT_ chriswhitworth

Being rude about a country you aren't resident of - nice...

Having driven all around Poland, I can categorically say the roads, on the whole are shit, in comparison with the UK.
_AT_RedmondM

I mean there is good state education n the UK, and bad state education, depending where you live. This is pretty much the same in every country. He could have moved to another part of the UK, or he could move to a certain part of Poland. Same end result..."
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"I can't comment on Poland, but I've lived in a number of European countires over the past ten years and, although in my area of work, the salaries are generally lower than in The UK, the quality of life has always been far higher.
I often return home, but when I do, I'm struck by the, seemingly, increasing levels of stress, impatience and occasionally rage (at noone in paricular(, all around me.
People just don't seem as happy in the UK, as elsewhere in Europe. This was the case well before the current economic malaise, by the way.
I wouldn't want to speculate too much, on the reasons for this situation, but those little Englanders, who deride and despise, seemingly, all things from across the channel, really need to open their eyes and lose their prejudices."
"_AT_ crydda

I've lived in Dusseldorf and the States for over 3 years.
I can happily say the UK is the most polite, low stress area I have been in. All my friends and colleagues seem happy. Maybe you statement is just highly ironic!
Reasons why the UK is fantabulous :)
1. amazing public transport
2. good balance between capitalism and socialism
3. amazing countryside and historical buildings
4. people are very polite
5. low car accidents / death in the world (major country)
6. lowest murder rate in world (major country)
7. weather perfect for exercise anytime
8. the NHS, but ability to go private if you want to
9. footpaths and the right to roam
10. excellent cheap shopping and choice
the only prejudice and little england views I hear are in the daily mail, and believe it or not even the readers of the daily mail know the paper spouts nonsense.. plus there are a spectrum of views to even it out.
i find the most upsetting thing about the UK, the commentators in the Guardian website who constantly complain about the country, then complain about people complaining - and don;t see the irony :)"
"How about an email that said:
""I'm looking for stories of black employees have stolen from you""
or
""I'm looking for stories where women employees stole from you""
Acceptable? No."
Unsavoury but nothing surprising to anyone who's had contact with the tabloids, and certainly not new. Working on a regional news agency in the 90s it was routine to get a call from one of the nationals indicating that there was good money on offer for any stories that shed a negative light on whatever section of the population was the current enemy within. Travellers have always been a firm favourite and 'New Age Traveller' horror stories were particularly in demand at one time. On the flip side of that equation, we were based in a very multi-ethnic city, as the national desks well knew, and when pitching in a story about a murder, for example, the first question would often be 'what colour were they?' 35-year old mum of 2 (white) and 35-year-old mum of 2 (non-white) brought a very different response.
This is obviously far beyond the pale. It would be acceptable to say that you were looking to speak to people who had dealings with Eastern European immigrants in order to find out what their experience had been like. If there was an overwhelming number of horror stories then that would be interesting, but I have no reason to suspect there would be.
"How about compulsory sterilization of the right wing?
Failing this, we could blast them into space?
They could establish a new planet of pre-conceived ideas, no tax, severe punishment (just.. because), inequality and none of that socialized medicine. A lot like this planet with them on it, but without the rest of us, so unrestrained by any vestiges of decency imposed upon them by last century's left wing struggle. The Daily Mail could piss off there and take their staff with them. It would only work if we could send the Murdoch family there as well. Rockets are quite complicated so with any luck there'll be an accident on the launch pad...."
"Oh good grief, it's not just the rampant xenophobia and implicit racism (""oh no we're not, we championed the cause of bring Stephen Lawrence's killers to justice..."" - big deal!) that marks the Daily Moan as a depressing, corrosive experience, but its mean-spirited negativity about almost everything. As a research exercise,go though any issue (or the MoS) and see how many of the headlines/stories are purposely putting such a spin on their subject matter.
[It's why one wag came up with this little wheeze a while ago... http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail
Even the Mail's ""celebrity profiles"" tend to be written from the sneering: ""He/She seems to have everything going for them, but is everything really so perfect in their world?"" position. OK, so maybe this is ""British culture's"" approach in general, but at least the tabs usually find something to pin their carping on - the DM is very often satisfied with sniping and innuendo. I can't imagine what it's like to work over there in Kensington -- I'm hoping the staff are just observing the form (Paul Dacre seems to have identified and defined the Moan's USP as appealing to the most bitter and small-minded facets of its readers' psyche... pandering to their 'lower life conditions', if you will), rather than taking any of that shit home with them into their lives and families. I can't help suspecting that not a little of it rubs off, though."
"I think you've all missed the point of this. Read her e-mail again, she's implying that those that have hired Eastern European staff have subsequently stolen from them. Or maybe that's just another example of the shocking standards of British journalism?
""I am urgently looking for anonymous horror stories of people who have employed Eastern European staff, only for them to steal from them.""
For what it's worth I've recently hired an Eastern European mechanic and he's brilliant."
Bass: I like your thinking. If all else fails we could force them all to live on the Isle of Wight! (What ed, it's already full of insance rigt-wingers?)
"East Europeans? Friendly, honest, hardworking.
Daily Mail readers? vicious, racist, small minded."
"Could the Guardian run a counter story to this and publish stories about all the good experiences people have had with Eastern European staff?
I had a Polish lodger and she was great, we got on well, she never stole from me, always paid her rent on time and when she moved out halfway through a month she'd already paid for she wasn't too bothered about getting her unused rent back, I had to go to the bank and pay it in for her.
By contrast another applicant I saw (from Glasgow) was a right miserable git and tried to get a reduction in his rent because the kitchen was too small (even though he only ever ordered takeaways)."
"If you've got a few million immigrants living among you then you're going to find criminals and other undesirables living among them -- the statistics say so. What would be interesting is whether the proportion was greater or lesser than the population as a whole.
If the UK was like the US then I'd guess that legal immigrants are on the whole more law abiding because its really easy to lose your status and get deported for quite trivial offenses. Illegals fall into two distinct groups -- those who are trying to to build a life so they need to keep a low profile (super law-abiding) and those who don't give a damn (because they're already outside the law -- gang bangers and the like). From some of the stories you read -- and I'd guess that they're not all Daily Mail like trawls -- you've got a significant number of the latter because its not so easy to get deported from England (unless you're law abiding, play by the rules and so on)."
A few years ago I employed an electrician who read the Daily Mail. He lied to me and eventually disappeared, so if he's reading this I hope he'll get in touch!
Why all the righteous indignation about this? British newspapers - not just the Mail, although it can be particularly vile - decide the line on a story beforehand. And they pay for stories. And still people are shocked - shocked! - that this happens. I've worked for newspapers in the US and the UK, and I can tell you that the banana republic way that print journalism is conducted here will not change until there is a massive shift in the way everyone thinks about what it means to be a proper journalist. Until then, you'll keep on pumping out hacks whose education and experience is all shorthand and media law, and no ethics.
I had an English builder in a few months ago, and he was a right shit. Free lead there, if any Daily Mail journalists are reading. Thought not.
I would not dirty my hands by picking up such a revolting racist newspaper and as for middle England Daily Mail Readers, one word describes them. REVOLTING.
have you noticed when the daily mail or their sister paper evening stard libels some one 90% of the time the setttle (pay up) on the steps of the high court the other 10% journalist who wrote the story fails to give evedince instead they have hevy weight lawers arguing there case for them they usually lose and get their ass kicked life ain`t so bad after all
roy can u get around to the daily/sunday express when u get a mo thanks
I'm astonished that not one poster has mentioned the brilliantly shocking chapter about the Mail at the end of the Nick Davies book. Roy, this is not a debate about acceptable ways of finding relevant case studies. This is just another example of the institutional racism which is inscribed in the soul of the Mail empire and is manifested every day by the absence of black faces (except criminals) and the manufactured stories about bogus asylum seekers. Alastair Campbell, for all his sins, has always been right about the Mail. A thorougly poisonous, evil influence on our cultural life. If enough people read the final chapter of the Davies book, it is just possible that - belatedly - something can be done: that the basic tenets of decent journalism might be rescued. If you're in any doubt about its aggressive viciousness, just follow the current libel trial of Austen Ivereigh. I'm no Catholic but that poor man is just a helpless, wounded animal in the Mail's Colisseum.
ragingbill, you're quite right of course. That chapter is a devastating indictment of the Mail. It hasn't received enough publicity because commentators have been overly interested in the Observer stuff. Davies's chapter opens with a detailed account of the Mail's disgraceful treatment of the Taylor sisters. It goes on to deal with several other examples of distortion, exaggeration and falsehoods. The chapter is titled "Mail aggression" by the way. It's worth buying the book for that chapter alone.
Wanted! Have you recently purchased organic mung beans, only to find out that they were, in fact, NOT organic? I will pay you £100 for your story. Call me at the Guardian on 07917........
"Why is anyone actually surprised about this happening? They can't be journalists, whoever they are...
This all goes back to the need to get case studies and stories at whatever cost. I'm sure the author of the email doesn't believe in the DM's views/lines - most of their reporters tend not to - but it is her job and if she's been told to find it by her desk then what choice does she have?
Most journalists I know have fantastic ethics. But in an age where newspaper journalism is shrinking and jobs are at a premium, if your desk says jump you ask how high - however repugnant theit request may be. Sadly, ethics do not put food on the table, as nice as that would be..."
20 comments in somebody finally makes a decent point. RahRah you are absolutely right about the journalists on the DM. Most of them hate the politics and bile of the paper but at the end of the day it's a job in an increasingly competitive market. And the Mail is one of the few papers which gives aspiring journalists paid shifts rather than taking advantage of "work experience". You folks who want to paint every single Daily Mail reader as a disgusting, brainless bigot are doing yourselves no favours. (Yes, I mean you bass46, disco damaged, Woffor, and especially TrevorMcdonut). I'm no fan of the paper - don't get me wrong - but people read it for reasons other than the evident xenophobia. Some read it because they like the sport. Some because they like the puzzle pages (my mother in law for example - and she's certainly not a bigot). Some read it because they vote conservative so the Guardian's not for them. Some read it because they buy a paper on the basis of entertainment and value for money, not worthiness. By churning out these vicious, knee jerk responses you're lowering yourselves to the same level as the mail. I thought you were supposed to be the brainy ones?
"Justifying reading the Mail because the sport is good is a bit like signing up to the BNP because they have excellent biscuits. Surely you can get good sport coverage, puzzles, and Telegraphs elsewhere.
I see your point, and agree that perhaps the writers are just putting food on the table, however bilious the spread may be, but disagree about your mother in law. Of course she's a bigot - they all are."
"Daily Mail = BNP? Maybe once upon a time, when Rothermere was a vociferous supporter of the Nazis. You're probably over egging the pudding to make a direct comparison these days though. The Mail's given Nick Griffin as sound a kicking as any paper - see if you can track down the piece David Jones wote a while back. The headline was A Very Plausible Bigot I think.
And watch your mouth when it comes to my mother in law. She's from Portsmouth so she can take care of herself - don't say I didn't warn you."
"I'm a Daily Mail reader and no more or less a bigot than whoever jonnyhartley is... judging by his comments.
RichardX made a valid point. Our choices are made for all sorts of reasons. What I always find strange is the complete lack of self-awareness by the DM's critics. Such blind harshness is either bigotness or one step close to it.
Cheers, Euphrosene"
Whoops. Or even bigotedness.
Apparently, she was successful. This has just come out: How can I have been so stupid? The heiress fighting her penniless Kosovan refugee ex-husband for her own fortune http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=517669&in_page_id=1879
I agree with TrevorMcdonut. The Daily Mail is fit for one thing and one thing only...toilet paper.
"Quite disappointed that my bigoted comment about bigots wasn't spotted as the joke it was intended to be. Didn't even make a direct comparison between the Mail and the BNP, just an analogy.
Ne'ermind."
I would have left an erudite and witty comment here, but I got hopelessly distracted by that illustration. Is Team GB attempting to breed some sort of invincible Greco-Roman wrestler/octopus hybrid, and this was one of the unfortunate early experiments? Or is it merely the result of a teleporter gone wrong?
"Just wait until 22 Brazilian footballers contest the World Cup final between Qatar and United Arab Emirates.
That's sporting romance."
That's Zolabudding romance.
"I was once offered the chance to ""wrestle with Britain's finest in Salford""
I am a changed man...."
"Getting an East European bride sounds a lot easier, although I believe some of them are Stone Cold Stunners.
Hopefully the authorities can get to grips with anyone attempting these manoeuvres solely for the purpose of gaining citizenship status and instead of ending up in wedlock they will end up in a legal headlock, or unfortunately, like Eddie the Eagle this avenue will quickly become a slippery slope downhill."
"Greco-Roman grappling is for kids. Les Kellett would have had the lot of them for breakfast.
gg"
"Did the Ukrainians come over here voluntarily, or did we have to.....wait for it.............
twist their arm!!!!"
"Marina
Minor point, but always good to get the facts right. You dont wrestle for Britain at the Commonwealth games. It was either England, Scotland, Wales or NI. They compete seperately.
On another point, this has been happening for some time in athletics, with Kenyans, Americans and other nationalities being crafted in to fill holes in the team."
"So if one of the England ladies marries Lionel Messi does that mean....???
Is there enough time to make all arrangements?"
"romance and hilarity!
she's a tomboy and they're not! it's absurd! Remember that bit where michael caine says that thing and then sandra bullock falls over? You couldn't make it up!
lol"
What's the big fuss? Sure your cricket team is full of Saffers and the rugby team (sshhh) has a sprinkling of Saffers and Kiwis and Shrek has found a home in the national soccer team.
"Marina,
You old romantic you!

Perfect use of a paragraph. Perfect."
all these Eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from?
eastern europe
That they truly are lying back and thinking of England?
"Is this what the wannabe WAGS are doing?
Trying to marry international footballers in an attempt to get them to naturalise & play for England.
And here was me thinking that they were all airheads!"
"Shouldn´t these love struck wrestling foreigners be given a suitable collective noun?
What about the Half-Nelsons?"
"Response to Trotsky1917, 15 December 2011 12:19pm
Only if there were 55 ½ of them"
I assume these Eastern European wrestlers weren't good enough to get in their own national teams. If so and the plan to put them in the GB team was an underhand attempt to win medals, it seems unlikely to succeed.
"Response to TheAustrian, 15 December 2011 2:53pm
...five out of the seven places on a well-funded elite squad go to Ukrainians. My italics."
I know I would like to represent GB in a wrestling bout with some of the eastern European females on the WTA tennis tour. Even losing would be fun.
"Vidor06

Have quite so many of these other examples involved marriages?"
"""Such a debate is long overdue and should have been conducted before the post-communist countries of eastern Europe were admitted as full members of Nato and the European Union.""
Be serious, has Spain sorted out its OWN historical ghosts before joining the EU?
How are small countries, caught between two of the most violent totalitarian regimes in history (the shorter lived won accounting for 14 million murders, the longer lived one for 20 million murders) meant to sort these things out to the nth degree and to our satisfaction?
We have the luxury of being on the winning side, so all our skeletons, whether collaboration in the Channel Islands or bombing German cities are swept away.
I've no doubt had the Nazis won the hot war our leaders and many others would have been executed for war crimes.
I've no doubt that had he Communists won the cold war leaders, intellectuals, trade unionists and hapless citizens would have disappeared into the maw of the gulag."
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"The ferocity with which Latvian posters (some, not all) and British far right came to CiF to discredit Guardian editorial Latvian Waffen-SS: No ifs, no buts only proves that there is something dark lurking in the deep waters they are trying to deny:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/13/latvia-poland-waffen-ss1?commentpage=1"
"MiskatonicUniversity
You are right - the difference between hero and criminal seems to depend which side won the war and left to write the history.
Bit the danger in today's politics in the post Soviet space is that it may ignite the future war.
There are millions of native Russians living today in Baltic countries and Ukraine who became second-class citizens and victimized for whatever may have happen in the past just for them being other then native population.
And those state feel empowered to conduct such a policy due to assumption that whatever they do they will be supported and protected by NATO."
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Hard to read that without a feeling of paradox. The change of one occupation for another?
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"I would agree with a lot of what you write Mr Zuroff, except the above illusion about Nato and EU ""values"".
Those values are non-existent. In the 1950s and later, Nato and the major EU states had no qualms about supporting and arming the terrorist gangs composed of remnants of the Nazi collaborators (the ""forest brethren"") in the Baltic states of the USSR in the full knowledge of their Nazi past. (Fortunately Kim Philby was around to make sure most of them got their just deserts.)
That, I suppose, is to be expected. The real pity is that of the western liberals who spent decades enthusiastically supporting eastern European ""dissidents"" thinking that after the counter-revolution they would end up with a nice cuddly Guardian-reading liberal republic of eastern Europe, instead of states largely dominated by the bunch of poisonous right-wingers, mafiosi and neo-fascists that we now see.
ever been had?"
"That's because Western Europeans had to choose between siding with the Nazis or Britain, France and the USA - fairly easy choice. Eastern Europeans had to choose between siding with the Nazis and siding with the Soviets - horrible choice with no 'right' answer. Allying with the Soviets to defeat the Nazis was to stop one genocide in exchange for allowing another to occur unhindered.
If they had made the other choice and the Soviets had managed to push further west, you'd be complaining about Latvians collaborating with mass murdering Russians instead of Germans."
"'the heroic victory of those who saved the world from Hitler and the Nazis'
Meaning? Oh yes, The heroic Soviet Union, who deported or executed all those Poles who had just spent 5 years risking their lives every day to fight against the German occupation. Listen mate, while it is true that there is ignorance about the role played by local collaborators in the shoah (interesting that you use the term 'holocaust', a term that gives religious sanctification to what happened) the comparison between the apparently civiilised collaboration of the french and the Dutch and the Norwegians and the uncivilised collaboration of East Europeans is pathetic. had there been 3 million Jews in France the collaboration levels would have been just the same as they were in Poland. And how is escorting people to railways stations not participating in mass murder, when their fate could be guessed? As for your assumption that the motivation of the Soviet Union was to save the world and give us all a better future, I suggest you think about what life was like for the ordinary person in Eastern Europe by the 1980s. It is true that there was no mass terror, but it was also true that you had to wait 12 years for a car, 7 years for a phone, that you had to wear socialist underclothes and that there was no hope. No hope, just squalor and humiliation. In 1992 I saw huge queues outside macdonalds in warsaw and asked a student of mine why people wanted to go there when the food was crap and expensive, She thought for a bit and said: 'clean toilets'. In Krakow in 1989 , a population of 700,000, there were 3, yes 3 places where one could buy beer.
Where do you live Mr Zuroff? Nice is it? Comfortable? I bet it is, but I bet you also spend plenty of time extolling the virtues of a bankrupt system that you never had to experience. Now get off the web..."
"This is curious
""Naums Lifšics, Jewish Latvian economist, survivor of Stalinist repressions, holder of the Order of the Three Stars, wrote in his letter to the major Latvian national newspaper ""Diena"" about participation of NKVD agents in activities of Arajs Kommando:
When the war started, NKVD infiltrated into Arajs Sonderkommando its agents, who helped Arajs to eliminate Jews. After the war the same NKVD members worked in the building at the corner of the Stabu and Brivibas streets. For example, one of such covert agents was Boris Kinstler, former assistant to Arajs, and Pavlova, who received high level award for her ""good"" deeds""
From Wiki"
Flog that horse some more, it isn't dead, its just been holding its breath for ages.
"That part is mostly not true. The Nazi-collaborationists were exposed, tried and in many cases executed in Eastern European countries for their deeds. They certainly were in Croatia and elsewhere in Yugoslavia
The real problem is that it turns out that many of the Eastern European ""dissidents"" cherished by the West because they were anti-Communists, and many of whom gained power in the 1990s to the cheers from the Western capitals, were indeed fascists all along."
"""a ceremony held yesterday in Riga to honour the Soviet soldiers who liberated the city in 1944""
First time they ""liberated"" the city in June 1940. Executions and deportations of thousands to camps followed.
Second time they ""liberated"" the city in 1944. More deportations of thousands to camps followed. Women and little children were sent to Arctic to die. The country was ruined.
The ""liberators"" left Latvia only in 1994. Promising ""to return"".
No much reasons for celebration. Unless you are one of the ""liberators"" who settled in the ""liberated"" /conquered/ territory."
"This article completely whitewashes the Soviet Union' oppression of Latvia and the Latvian people. Russian effectively annexed Latvia in June 1940 in which a reportly around 35,000 people were deported or killed. Many more were subsequently suffered the same fate. It should come as no surprise that many Latvias therefore saw the German invasion of Latvia as a 'liberation' and yes many did willing sign up to join Wafen-SS and army units, many were also coerced into it. Around 70,000 Latvian jews were murdered by the Germans with some Latvian co-operation. The subsequent recapture of Latvia by the Russians you can call a 'liberation' but for the Latvians in was just the reconquest by another foreign aggressor which would subjugate them for a further 55 years or so.
During this period of Russian 'liberation', 100,000s of Latvians were imprisoned in gulags and sent to Siberia and many killed. more than 100,000 fled Latvia for the West. Whilst just as China is doing in Tibet, Russia encouraged large numbers of russians to emigrate to LAtvia to dilute its ethnic identity. it is not really surprising that most Latvians see Russian as the greater oppressor than Germany. Most had direct experience of being persecuted by the Russians but no experience of being persecuted by the Germans.
The idea Latvians should thank Russians for oppressing them is ridiculous."
"MrJoe:

You can go on repeating that lye over and over again, and it still won't make it true. They had to choose between the Allies, i.e. Britain, France, USA and USSR, on one side, and the Axis, i.e. Germany, Italy and Japan on the other. They chose the Axis, because they agreed with the fascist policies of their governments."
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity
So you are among those who try to rewrite history without knowing it?
My father once told me a story which he heard from his father, my granddad, in 1944 when he visited home for a short leave after having been wounded and treated in hospital. It was in some town in Poland during our offensive when his tank group came across a column of skeleton-like Jews convoyed by Waffen-SS. Russians killed all SS-men as they hated them, but two black-uniformed mongrels managed to survive and they were speaking no German - one was Pole, the other somewhere from Baltics. It turned out the whole column was convoyed by East-European SS. Our tankmen were short of rations by that time but they gave Jew prisoners half of what they had and then went on to the west.
My granddad was an ordinary sergeant of the Soviet army (not a member of Communist Party) and he was KIA in Berlin the day before that war ended. But he may turn in his grave when hearing things like equalling light-heartedly the ""two totalitarian regimes""."
"Mr Zuroff is entirely right to say that

One might wonder whether that was because people in Western Europe are intrinsically more decent and civilised than those in the East, or because the West did not have the recent experience of being oppressed by the murderous lies and tyranny of the Soviet government.

The same is of course true for the Soviets who killed far more people, though fewer Jews, than the Nazis. I do understand and sympathise with Mr Zuroff's emphasis on the killing of Jews. However ...
Very bad logic, but perhaps understandable emotion, could lead people to feel ""The Soviets are my unforgivable enemy, the Germans have liberated my country from the Soviets whom I would happily kill, the Germans say the Jews are their enemies as well as the Soviets, therefore ...""
or even ""Jews have been prominent among the Communists who have done so much harm, so ...""
An educated liberal would object that some Jews from Marx onwards is very far from most Jews; how far can one forgive a Baltic or Ukrainian peasant for not being an educated liberal?
Also: the West/East distinction is not quite that clear. French police deported far more Jews, even children, than the Germans asked them to. Francois Mitterrand worked for the collaborationist Vichy government, and was awarded the Order de la Francisque (Petain's equivalent of the Legion d'honneur) for his services. He later switched sides, but was a Vichy official during the time when Jews were being deported to their deaths; in his postwar political career he was supported by, and supported, Rene Bousquet who had a prominent part in the children's deportations (and also switched sides opportunely).
I don't remember the Guardian denouncing Mitterrand, or the French Socialists whom he led for so long, with the venom directed at Poles or Latvians.
Nor should you: Mitterrand was an intelligent man doing the best he could, as he saw it, for his country at a time when it was impossible to know what the truly best course was.
Many Poles and Latvians also."
When I say, "they chose the Axis", I of course mean those who did, not all Eastern European, most of whom opposed the Nazis, and millions of whom fought alongside the Allies in overseas brigades and home resistance units.
"Those neo-Nazi miscreants in Latvia do not deserve to be called Latvians, for they are traitors and retroactive quislings whose ideological ancestors not only committed genocide against Jews and Russians, but also martyred many thousands of Latvians who fought heroically in the Red Army and partisan volunteer units. If the present Latvian regime and its surrogates is going to continue on this dangerous course of revisionism and falsification of history, then it must be held accountable for the Holocaust, including reparations given to the victims of the Holocaust.

In the 1960s and 1970s, my grandfather did not wait 12 years for his Chevrolet, nor did my father for his Volga Gaz. They did not pay the equivalent of $1000+/month for an apartment or $1 million on a mortgage, but paid practically nothing on housing and other necessities. People lived in decent, normal lives, enjoyed the best job security with benefits, were represented by trade unions, and sent their children to school with practically no costs. By contrast, formerly successful enterprises like at the Lenin Shipyard in Gdansk and the mines of Silesia have been pretty much destroyed by the capitalists and their regime.

This is yet another example of how these neo-fascist revisionists are trying to hijack history and subordinate it to the hateful, discredited movement of their ideological ancestors, as though they alone represent Poland or Latvia. The fact is that far more many Poles served in the armed forces of the legitimate Committee of National Liberation and the subsequent Provisional Government than in the proxy bands of the cowardly exile regime in London."
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"> CarefulReader
""You can go on repeating that lye over and over again, and it still won't make it true. They had to choose between the Allies, i.e. Britain, France, USA and USSR, on one side, and the Axis, i.e. Germany, Italy and Japan on the other. They chose the Axis, because they agreed with the fascist policies of their governments.""
Mhm. You confused me. Whom exactly did you have in mind?
For example Latvia was oriented on Great Britain and regarded it as an ally. Too bad Western Allies were not there to help when USSR and Reich shared Eastern Europe amongst them. Did they help? Did they even object? They were too far away and too week.
No much sense either in your claim that ""They chose the Axis, because they agreed with the fascist policies of their governments"" Speaking of Allies would that make ""Communist policies"" of Britain, France, USA and USSR. Or that would be ""Capitalist democracies"" of Britain, France, USA and USSR?
By the way, do you know that Latvians were fighting Red Army with German weapons waiting for the day when Americans and British will come from the West and to liberate them? They thought they have to hold on to buy time and make it to the day when they come."
It would be the anti-fascist policies of Britain, France, USA and USSR. The conservatives, liberals, socialists and communists of the world united in their fight against fascist governments of the Axis, which wanted to establish a hierarchy of peoples based on their racial origin and purity. Anybody who fought for the Axis, fought against all of the Allies. The rest is just sophistry.
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"CarefulReader
14 Oct 09, 7:26pm
No.
Nothing you said is logical.
Fine as a slogan though."
"It is not as one-sided as you portray. The numbers were not ""100,000s"", but amounted to about 60,000, and these were all by no means innocent people, but were found to have engaged in treason, sabotage, and acts of banditry, undermining the war effort, economic development, and the country's post-war rehabilitation.
In the lead-up to the war, on 14 June 1941, 17,000 members and agents of the former bourgeois regime, including burreaucrats, gendarmes, soldiers, were simply sent away to places like Krasnoiarsk, where they would not be able to disrupt the country's development and defense. After the liberation, some 40,000 people involved in banditry leading to the martyrdom of thousands of Communists, Komsomoltsy, political workers, etc, were sent away to Omsk and Amurskaya for both punishment and rehabilitation."
bypasser, what isn't logical? Aren't you aware that USA and UK were allies of the USSR? Aren't you aware that both UK and USA were helping and coordinating with Communist resistance forces around Europe and Asia at the time? This is really becoming ridiculous. The Western democracies and the world's communists were on the same side in World War II, as the Western governments made clear in numerous public proclamations to Eastern European people's.
"I think the contemporary focus on the suffering of the Jews in WWll, and regarding the holocaust as a discrete event separate from the other horrors of the war, is anachronistic, certainly in the context of Eastern Europe. AS Richard Novick points out, this view of the holocaust did not arise until the early 1960s, well after the events in question.
As Richard Overy states in his book, ""Russia's War"", ""in all of history there has probably been no more terrible place than Eastern Europe in the 1941."" That's obviously not to excuse in any way those who collaborated with the Nazis, but let's remember that few in the USSR or neighbouring states escaped the hideous cruelty and deprivation of the times, a level of suffering which is difficult for us even to imagine. It's all very well for us to focus on the suffering of only one group of people. Ordinary folks in Latvia, Poland etc had no such luxury."
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"wildriverapples

While it's true that France was overrun and capitulated quickly, and that the French quisling government gladly helped the Nazis get rid of the Jews, it is also true that neither the French government nor anybody in France builds monuments and holds parades in the honour of the quislings."
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"I was wondering how would it take you to start calling people who have different to your own opinion liers and communists. Seems, this is the only way you can communicate. Is it how it is done in your country? Maybe I should be more understanding of the people who were born in the authoritarian Soviet Union, they tend to abuse those who disagree.
BTW, you have done far more damage to all your arguments than anyone else possibly could. You undermine yourself by calling people names and accusing of lies without any ground. But, I guess, you don't see.
OK, OK, bring more some of your obcene accusations. Show yourself off."
Are you something of a Stalin cultist?
"bypasser
I don't care much about Zuroffs's article, but since what time ""Stalinist Soviet version of history"" predominates in the west? Hasn't it Private Ryan saved Europe, destroying a German tank and killing a couple of Nazis? Or when speaking about ""Soviet versions"" you can show other figures apart from that at least 3/4 of Nazi troops were destroyed by the Soviets? Eisenhower and Churchill acknowledge this fact in their books. But you may have known better."
"The header to this article, reads: The Tories' new rightwing European allies have provoked a debate over the second world war that is long overdue.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/25/russia.books
[Quote] Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who first exposed the horrors of the Stalinist gulag, is now attempting to tackle one of the most sensitive topics of his writing career - the role of the Jews in the Bolshevik revolution and Soviet purges.
In his latest book Solzhenitsyn, 84, deals with one of the last taboos of the communist revolution: that Jews were as much perpetrators of the repression as its victims. Two Hundred Years Together - a reference to the 1772 partial annexation of Poland and Russia which greatly increased the Russian Jewish population - contains three chapters discussing the Jewish role in the revolutionary genocide and secret police purges of Soviet Russia.
But Jewish leaders and some historians have reacted furiously to the book, and questioned Solzhenitsyn's motives in writing it, accusing him of factual inaccuracies and of fanning the flames of anti-semitism in Russia.
Solzhenitsyn argues that some Jewish satire of the revolutionary period ""consciously or unconsciously descends on the Russians"" as being behind the genocide. But he states that all the nation's ethnic groups must share the blame, and that people shy away from speaking the truth about the Jewish experience.
In one remark which infuriated Russian Jews, he wrote: ""If I would care to generalise, and to say that the life of the Jews in the camps was especially hard, I could, and would not face reproach for an unjust national generalisation. But in the camps where I was kept, it was different. The Jews whose experience I saw - their life was softer than that of others.""
Yet he added: ""But it is impossible to find the answer to the eternal question: who is to be blamed, who led us to our death? To explain the actions of the Kiev cheka [secret police] only by the fact that two thirds were Jews, is certainly incorrect.""
Solzhenitsyn, awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1970, spent much of his life in Soviet prison camps, enduring persecution when he wrote about his experiences. He is currently in frail health, but in an interview given last month he said that Russia must come to terms with the Stalinist and revolutionary genocides - and that its Jewish population should be as offended at their own role in the purges as they are at the Soviet power that also persecuted them.
""My book was directed to empathise with the thoughts, feelings and the psychology of the Jews - their spiritual component,"" he said. ""I have never made general conclusions about a people. I will always differentiate between layers of Jews. One layer rushed headfirst to the revolution. Another, to the contrary, was trying to stand back. The Jewish subject for a long time was considered prohibited. Zhabotinsky [a Jewish writer] once said that the best service our Russian friends give to us is never to speak aloud about us.""
But Solzhenitsyn's book has caused controversy in Russia, where one Jewish leader said it was ""not of any merit"".
""This is a mistake, but even geniuses make mistakes,"" said Yevgeny Satanovsky, president of the Russian Jewish Congress. ""Richard Wagner did not like the Jews, but was a great composer. Dostoyevsky was a great Russian writer, but had a very sceptical attitude towards the Jews.
""This is not a book about how the Jews and Russians lived together for 200 years, but one about how they lived apart after finding themselves on the same territory. This book is a weak one professionally. Factually, it is so bad as to be beyond criticism. As literature, it is not of any merit.""
But DM Thomas, one of Solzhenitsyn's biographers, said that he did not think the book was fuelled by anti-semitism. ""I would not doubt his sincerity. He says that he firmly supports the state of Israel. In his fiction and factual writing there are Jewish characters that he writes about who are bright, decent, anti-Stalinist people.""
Professor Robert Service of Oxford University, an expert on 20th century Russian history, said that from what he had read about the book, Solzhenitsyn was ""absolutely right""......
I doubt Mr Zuroff, much like those who railed against Solzhenitsyn's last work, where he saught to tackle this taboo subject, believes that Jews should be required to collectively apologise, pay reparations and be constantly held to account, some generations after hideous acts and those perpetrating them took place. Zuroff would be right, in this case, the Jews should not but neither should any other people or ethnic group."
"The debate over the Second World War has already been written in blood when Yugoslavia disintegrated.
Like a fly emerging live from the amber, all the old hatreds engendered by WWII resurfaced and we all know what happened next.
Possibly the worst legacy of the Nazi occupation has been the divisions it caused within formerly occupied nations. Even in Western Europe wounds have taken a very long time to heal. In Belgium collaborators were stripped of all civil rights, something the far-right Vlaams Belang has taken advantage of by repeatedly demanding amnesty.
David Cameron is entering a minefield - I don't think he really understands the subtleties of the situation."
"The evidence shows that they were a bunch of bandits and war criminals whose intentions of sabotaging Latvia's development and turn back the clock to capitalism failed disastrously.
Between 1944 and 1952...inlatvia 1562 Soviet Party and Komsomol activists were killed, 50 Soviet Army servicemen, 64 MVD and MGB workers, 386 soldiers in security battalions, and many members of their families.""
The bandits were quickly defeated because the people were naturally appalled at their sickening ideology and their diabolical plans for the future. Compare the miserable failures of the Baltic bandits to the successes of the great Yugoslavian partisan struggle."
"> CarefulReader
""While it's true that France was overrun and capitulated quickly, and that the French quisling government gladly helped the Nazis get rid of the Jews, it is also true that neither the French government nor anybody in France builds monuments and holds parades in the honour of the quislings.""
Did I miss something? Was France occupied by USSR first to be ""liberated"" by Germany?
Was it so that Russian secret police was killing cream of the French society? Was it so that French women and children where sent by Russians to camps in Siberia to die from starvation and cold? Was it so that the Germans came and stopped all that?
It wasn't so you say?
So why are you comparing incomparable things?
From all we know - if the Soviets would be first to invade France and Germans were to come to drive them out - the support to Germans might have been immense."
"The one thing that disturbs me in this piece and others like it is the lumping together Poland and Latvia, putting them in the same category of collaboration. This is mind boggling.
Poland was in the fight against Nazi Germany from the very beginning to the very end.
450,000 Polish soldiers were in uniform fighting Nazi Germany when the war ended in 1945, on both Eastern and Western fronts. About 200,000 fought as part of the Soviet Red Army. These are remarkable numbers for a country that spent almost the entire war under German occupation.
Occupied Poland had no ""Quisling"" or ""Petain"" collaborator government, and there were no Polish SS divisions.
Compare this to Latvia, a country of 2 million, which fielded two SS divisions (the 15th and the 19th)
For illustration, if Poland collaborated at the same level, and given it was a country ten times bigger than Latvia, there would have been 20 Polish SS divisions! In actual fact there were zero.
Let's restore some sense of proportion here."
"all very well for both sides to posit their own histories with the benefit of hindsight and geography. it's a part of their own history that poles, latvians and others need to come to terms with.
we weren't there, nor do we share the national memories of oppression by the prussians and russians that the smaller nations, particularly those in the baltic states, have ingrained in their national psyche.
and what of labour being in a grouping which includes the remnants of the former communist parties in those nations? to my mind that's just as dodgy."
Solzhenitsyn was a reactionary, superstitious, chauvinist, a literary Vlasovite, and an anti-Semite -- a modern-day Black Hundred. He slandered the great author Sholokhov when he spread the lie of "Quiet Flows the Don" being plagiarized. He was a traitor to the extent that his literature regrets the failure by invaders of Russia such as the Germans in conquering the country. The supposed humanist Solzhenitsyn praised the mass murderer General Franco and strongly supported America's genocide against Vietnam.
"The Soviet Union also tried to liberate Finland by attacking it in 1939 but the Finns were so ungrateful and foolish that they fought back. Unfortunately, the rest of the world has mistakenly believed that the by doing this the Finns saved their country and kept their independence. This is, of course, a misunderstanding. The truth is that the stubborness of the Finns lost them the chance to enjoy liberation by the Red Army and to become part of the Soviet Union and so receive the many benefits of being ruled in their own country by hundreds of thousands of Russian military personnel and bureaucrats. Some sick-minded people have called this an occupation but that is a lie designed to discredit Russia when every informed and fair person knows that it was a generous gift of assistance to those lucky Baltic people who were not able to govern themselves.
In the same way, I must set the record straight about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which that has been misrepresented by revisionist historians when everyone must know that this was just a clever trick by Stalin to fool the Nazis and enable the Soviet Union to save the free world.
I do hope I have got this right because I wouldn't want to break the law under the Russian Constitution and end up in prison for writing something that is contrary to the official, approved version of history."
"You make a strong point when comparing the two, but there was a degree of collaboration and complicity with the Nazis among Poles.
Polish Prime Minister Josef Cyrankiewicz, an Auschwitz survivor, wrote that one Polish physician was more eager than SS doctors to send sick Jews to their death.
Young Polish men in the Baudienst participated in the murder of Jews as helpers of SS and German police.
Bishop Czeslaw Kaczmarek of Kielce commanded Poles to yield to the Nazi occupation regime.
Nor did Poles do anything meaningful to save the Jews. Poles actually committed mass robbery against Jewish property. They enriched themselves at Jews' expense. Newspaper ""Trybuna Wolnosci"" lamented in early 1944 ""the criminal and despicable role"" played by Polish policemen who tracked down the remnants of the surviving Jewish population and extorted money from them."
You are trying to create a misconception. Should Finland become part of the Soviet system, it would be like Poland, Hungary, GDR and others run by local Finnish communist party and its own National army that would uphold the regime. Russian military personnel and bureaucrats were sitting in Moscow.
chap- for all of sozhenitsyn's failures, he did highlight that the gulags were little better than extermination camps. 'work them to death and leave them in a camp in the wilderness to starve' being stalin's policy.
Your entire premise is weak because there was no intention or desire to see a Revolution in Finland, but to extract territorial and other concessions from the country. Soviet Russia was committed to peaceful coexistence and cooperation with an independent, non-aligned Finland.
"neoconsetc- nice name...not at all reminiscnet of a sixth form poliitcs student.
and what would have happened f the finns, in that scenario had decided 'actually, this communism stuff ain't for us' and tried to change things?...see: budapest 1956 or prague 1968."
So a small minority of people living under one of history's most horrific occupations turn into collaborators? How astonishing (not!). Of course, every one of us here on CiF can be 100% confident that we would have been brave resistance fighters had we lived in Poland circa 1940.
"I don't, really. But, how do yo manage to pick on the one reason why it actually would be a good partner for the conservatives?

What is wrong with that? Quite right, considering the Soviet record in Latvia."
"chap-

that's so true.
the policy was 'give us all your land and the concessions we want are that you become a satellite state.'
and why would finland have been given this 'special status' not afforded to the baltic states, poland, hungary etc?
nice work pinicchio but i'd watch that hooter if i were you."
"I am rather tired of being told how many Russians died fighting fascism as though the Soviet Union joined the war against the Nazis as an act of altruism. The Soviet Union had to fight because after a very nasty agreement called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact went wrong and after cooperating with the Nazis in the invasion of Poland, the Red Army was forced to defend Russia against its recent allies, namely a very aggressive and effective Nazi war machine.
That the Russian people defended their country with great heroism is not in dispute but, lets be clear, they did it for themselves and their survival not to save the world from their former ally, Nazi Germany."
"CarefulReader

It is also true that Dublin is the only European capital with a public statue to a prominent Nazi collaborator; Sean Russell, chief of staff of the IRA, who organised the bombing campaign in England and died attempting to return to Ireland from Berlin.
Your conclusions about the unspeakable nature of [some] Irish?"
"[Quote] "" .....and strongly supported America's genocide against Vietnam.""
So did Henry Kissinger, I suppose, employing a broad stroke such as yours, that makes Kissinger a virulent anti-Gentile."
"And one more thing, Joukahainen. Finland done very well out of trade with the Soviet Union: timbre, ship-building, export of plant machinery, etc. The trading relations helped Finland to avoid high unemployment and econimic shocks in the 1970's and 1980's. If not for this relationship with the Soviet Union, I don't think neither Western Europe nor the US would float Finish economy in a such reliable manner.
One the other hand, let's not forget that Finland was not only supporting Nazi Germany but lead its own offensive against the Soviet Union (talking about various degrees of collaboration). Norweigans, on the other hand resisted Nazies. Says a lot. Finland agreed to join the German Army in its attack on the Soviet Union in June 1941. This resulted in Britain declaring war on Finland later that year.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWfinland.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Finland_during_World_War_II"
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"Joukahainen
I think Putin said it right that there where mistakes and misdeeds on all sides starting from WWI.
However, today's hatred of all things Russian up to the point of complete distortion of history serves no one well.
The West's fatal mistake was oppression of Germany after the WWI which itself was a result of fear of a strong Germany dominating the Europe. This mistake caused the most devastating war so far, the Europe has seen.
And there where no nuclear arms then.
One has to ask a question today - What the current policy of the West toward Russia is aiming to achieve?"
"_AT_neoconsRfascists
I visited Estonia in the 1970s. Would you care to tell us all what percentage of the population there then were Russian military and bureaucrats? Be careful because I know the answer. Many of them are still there.
Yes, Finland benefited from trade with the Soviet Union, and vice versa. Isn't that what trade is for - mutual benefit?
Actually, Finland did not 'support Nazi Germany' or fascism but it did accept military assistance and co-operate militarily with German forces. It was not likely to ask for Soviet assistance! - the Soviets attacked Finland in 1939 having shelled there own soldiers in their positions at Mainila to create a justification for invasion. Read Khrushchev's memoirs if you need authentication."
"That's how I'd like to maintain my eternal youf.

Not much different from when the Washington took a grim view of the democratically elected governmet of Salvador Allende on 11 September 1973... or, I don't know, more recently, when Saddam Hussein started traiding oil in Euros instead of dollars the US invaded and dismembered this country also - plenty of other examples.
If a democratic US of A can screw other countries then what do you expect from the undemocratic Soviet Union. Shit happens. What's your point?"
Please note, this thread will shortly be closing for the night. Thank you for your interest.
"neo-

sorry, is chile near poland or the baltic?
i call 'whataboutery'."
"Sure, but remember this was mostly stalins business- he loved the idea of getting jews to do his dirty work, as he knew he could easilly whip up a purge against them if he wanted to.
there was set to be a massive anti-jewish purge in 1953, but fortunatelly stalin died, having made it too politically risky for anyone to have called him a doctor."
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"KrustytheKlown

No not a small minority. You are talking about two different things. Whilst it is obvious that Poland resisted strongly the German occupation out of a sense of nationalism and many fought on the allied side that does not mean that Poles werent still sympathetic to Nazi ideas about anti-Semitism and willingly and in an organised way collaborated with anti-Jewish measures before, during and after the war. I say after because obviously there were organised attacks against Jewish survivors who tried to return to Poland and there is a very strong argument that later in an effort to appease Polish anti-semitism and make their own occupation more palatable the USSR obviously ramped up its own anti-Semitic measures there to pacify the population. It s also true that Poland today seeks to deny these obvious truths and has failed tackled its anti-Semitic past and how this has lead directly to its present acceptance of the same attitudes in its modern politicians."
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"""In 1992 I saw huge queues outside macdonalds in warsaw and asked a student of mine why people wanted to go there when the food was crap and expensive, She thought for a bit and said: 'clean toilets'. In Krakow in 1989 , a population of 700,000, there were 3, yes 3 places where one could buy beer.""
(DurkheimwasRight)
So the Russians were responsible for dirty toilets in Krakow? The fiends!
The second accusation is a bit more difficult to understand because in Prague and Budapest in 1989 were hundreds of places to buy (very good) beer.
Maybe you should lie down a bit?"
"Neither it's near Washington. The yankees, while preaching about freedom and democracy, saw (and still do) it fit to intervene into internal affairs of independent countries. Very often military with deadly outcomes. What do you expect from the Soviet Union?
Sorry about your other post being deleted, I thought it was rather deep. Keep in the character."
It`s quite simple really vote Tory and honour the SS.
Yawn
"wiganwej
Yes that is how the Guardian are trying to paint it but anyone with an IQ higher than that of a cabbage patch doll knows that it is nothing of the kind."
"... and yet, obstinate right-wingers all over Europe cannot bring themselves to accept history as it happened. It was the Red Army that liberated the largest part of Nazi occupied Europe and it was the Soviet Union that bore the greatest burden of war to defeat fascism in Europe. In the process the Soviet Union suffered unimaginable losses in human lives and damage to the country.
But despite all this Nazi apologists and falsifiers of history are popping up all over the place these days. Their voice can be heard everywhere, left, right and center. The reason for this is of course the ongoing effort to denounce and destroy Communism once and for all. It's not just the Tories or the right-wing media that don't seem to have a problem with new and old Nazis, its also Institutions like the Council Of Europe which has launched a campaign for a revision of history in school textbooks ...
Communism may be dead, but clearly not dead enough
Seumas Milne
The Guardian, 16 February 2006
... we live in rotten times, indeed."
"What gets lost in all of the comments are the simple historical facts.
What countires were allies of Nazi, Germany ? What countries actively collaborated with Nazi, Germany ?
I think that if you all did a little more reading you would find that most Eastern European countries were either allies or actively collaborated with Germany.
Very few of them could be descibed as ""democratic"" most were quasi fascist.
As for the Western European countries most were more sympathetic to the Nazis than they were to the Soviet Union.
Myself I am still waiting for the opening of the Rudolph Hess records which were supposed be to vailable to the public after thirty years, then the time was extended to 50 years, now it seem that I might be dead before they are opened.
One might ask what do they hide ?
Was Hess proposing a plan B to the Brits ?"
"This was posted to the other thread on the same topic. I think it is important to include it here for all to read.
Ref: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/13/latvia-poland-waffen-ss1?commentpage=6&commentposted=1
===============================
Dvinsk
15 Oct 09, 11:41am (about 2 hours ago)
Bypasser, I think you are right. Killings must be politically correct as in the concept of just war. It is like when a pilot drops the bomb on village in Afghanistan and kills 4 taliban fighters and 10 bypassers we consider this as bad but necessary action and politically correct. When someone blows a bomb on the tube and kills 14 commuters we see it as cruel, coward, inhuman, inexcusable act of suicidal fanatic. I think we have to do this distinctions even there is difficult choice between two evils. I believe that intentions are important.
As mentioned on this thread earlier, Nazis intentions were to kill people of wrong nature (Jews, Slavs, homosexuals) and Stalinists killed people that could be obstacles to their system. Both are evil but intentions are different.
Let me illustrate and to tell my grandmother story.
By the way, I am from Latvia too, but from a Russian part of it. It exists. Daugavpils used to be called Dvinsk, Dinaburg, Boris-Glebsk at different times in history as regimes changed. It is populated mostly by people who speak Russian (Russians, Poles, Belarusian). And no, they do not want to join Russian Federation.
However, before WW2 30% percent of population of the town were Jews, 30% Russians, another 35% Poles and other nationalities, and only 5% Latvians.
My grandmothers family worked for Jews small merchants on their street during time of First Latvian Republic (1919-1940). Most of little business on Vidzemes street were run by Jews.
Then Communists (Russians) came in 1940. The reception was warm but a bit orchestrated, the people lined streets with red banners. The grandmother changed her job from cattle herding to a cleaner in the psychiatric hospital. I guess some Jews joined the new Soviet administration and ratted on the Latvian bourgeois. The bourgeoisie have been sent to Siberia. Their property was nationalized. This is wrong but can be explained as class war. Someone could say that Jews started it.
Then came Nazi (Germans) in 1941. The reception was more emotional. Even my grandmother, being a young pretty girl, got a chocolate from smiling German soldier riding a tank along the street. Then some local Latvians volunteered with local police and ratted on Communists, Jew communists, and just Jews. They not only ratted on them but took them to open trenches and gunmachned them all. No one force them to do it. Story goes that one of our Latvian neighbor came to our house and cried as he told my great-grandfather that he just saw family of another neighbor, Jew, including two small girls lying in ravine together with other people that he just mowed with his gun machine newly issued by German authorities. He had remorse he was not so cold-blood killer afterwards but he did it. I can imagine someone from his family was sent to Siberia by local communist administration and he was for looking for revenge. He got it and local street cobbler and his family got shot in the process. I could see where he comes from here. I do not excuse but can just see. This point about you did it to us we did to you etc.
Of course, Nazis directed all those killings but even they have been taken aback but efficiency of local police as after 3 months no Jews left to kill in town. The 5% of local population wiped out the biggest part of population (33%) in 3 months.
The story goes that policemen went to local German masters to ask to continue work with Russian population but we sent to Easter front to do proper fighting as Nazis needed local Russians for the moment as labor. This point is about point about few bad apples that I think that has not been acknowledged enough in Latvia until now.
Sorry for a bit of rumbling and back to my grandmother. She returned to her old job at lunatic asylum after first couple days of mayhem. She found all patients executed at the back of hospital. And this is the important point for me about the difference between Nazis and Stalinists (Communist). Killings that are without any political justification just because it is not convenient to look after pour souls and anyway those are no humans as lesser races. That is the absolute evil of Nazism.
But if you stuck between Stalinist and Nazis you had to live and sometimes forced (conscripted) to do things. At the end, my grandma found a job as a cook for German pilots. But there is nothing to be even remotely to be nostalgic or proud about."
"miskatonicuniversity:

One man's history is another man's propaganda.
In another article in today's guardian I have read about ' 28 million murders ( admitedly of an inferior race) by deliberately created famines' by a regime which is neither totalitarion nor barbaric"
"Not only the Tories allying themselves with Nazis.
Labourites and LibDems are not different.
The Palestine Telegraph reports:
The Palestinian Return Centre (PRC) will host a conference on the 16th of December 2009 to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency UNRWA.
Some names from the participants' list:
Claire Short- British MP
Baroness Jenny Tonge- Former British MP
Professor Norman Finkelstein- American Political Scientist and Author
...
Kristina Morvai - Lawyer, Human Rights Lecturer and Member of European Parliament
...
For your information Morvai is the representative in the EP of the Hungarian neo-Nazi party - Jobbik."
Good posts! Well said.
Britain? No? Just a wild guess.
"Am I the only one to notice that Zuroff's writing style and turn of phrase sounds exactly like Pravda editorials from the 1980s?
Zuroff has done sterling work in pushing the prosecution of war criminals in Eastern Europe, but I now see him as merely a tool of the 198os Soviet propaganda now emenating from the Kremlin.
Secondly,
""ignoring the important historical truth as Usakovs noted yesterday in his comments that ""had Riga not been liberated from the Nazis in 1944, there would be no independent Latvia today [and therefore] it is our duty to thank those who fought against the Nazis.""
How can a conditional sentence, ""had Riga not been liberated"" be regarded as historical truth?"
I am so tired of articles such as these which allow people with a single thought in their lives to constantly witter on. Articles such as these just promote hatred - and this time against Latvians - why does this Zuroff man want to stir up such hatred?? Should he not spend his energy on creating something good in the world rather than displaying his hatred towards anyone not of his own faith?
You would not complain if it was promoting hatred against Russians, would you?! That's right.
brownflower or brown shirt?
"> neoconsRfascists
14 Oct 09, 8:51pm
""You are trying to create a misconception.""
No misconception here. At the time USSR was set on course of restoring the Russian Empire. So Finland would be in incorporated into the USSR just like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and would share their fate.
""Should Finland become part of the Soviet system, it would be like Poland, Hungary, GDR and others run by local Finnish communist party and its own National army that would uphold the regime. ""
You forgot to add ""nominally"" or ""in theory"". As those were puppet regimes installed by, supported by and closely controlled by Soviets. Remember Prague Spring? That was what happened when the people actually wanted to start acting on their own. Besides - see above - this post-WWII semi-autonomy was not the case for Finland.
I am not even talking about Baltic states here, where the Soviet installed KGB controlled administrative structure contained more and more Russian speaking Soviet loyalists from USSR in key positions. And the army was the Soviet occupation army drafting people into its ranks by force.
""Russian military personnel and bureaucrats were sitting in Moscow.""
All the Eastern Europe was stuffed full of Russian military personnel. Especially that concerns the Baltic states which were in fact huge Soviet military bases, packed up to their eyes with everything starting from communications - through tanks, airplanes, ships and submarines, - to strategic nuclear missiles.
The capital of Latvia - Riga was always full of Soviet officers, soldiers and military patrols. Not unlike you can see in movies about German occupation of France. The Headquarters for the region were in Riga.
Latvia is full of Soviet military veterans. Some of them had to leave in accordance to the international agreements, but haven't. Some even have received money for resettlement to Russia, but have kept money and haven't left either. And they are one of the most venomous Soviet apologist and xenophobic anti-Latvian groups in the country."
"> neoconsRfascists
15 Oct 09, 3:30pm
""You would not complain if it was promoting hatred against Russians, would you?! That's right.""
Unfortunately, as is the case, it is promoting hatred against Latvians, so your bitter remark obviously is off the point. Unless your sole goal was to promote it too that is, of course."
"> brownflower
15 Oct 09, 3:18pm

""...why does this Zuroff man want to stir up such hatred??""
Why?
Really...
Let's make a guess....
What about a theory that it gives him power and money?
As soon as there is no hatred he is out of business.
What about such a hypothesis?"
"""Usakovs noted yesterday in his comments that ""had Riga not been liberated from the Nazis in 1944, there would be no independent Latvia today [and therefore] it is our duty to thank those who fought against the Nazis""
Funny how far you can go in binding the truth if you really-really want to ""prove"" something.
Usakovs thinks that Latvians have to thank soldiers of Red Army for existence of Latvia although exactly the Red Army was the first to invade Latvia with the direct result of wiping the country off the world map for 50 years!
The fact that Latvia was able to regain its independence after all those years is actually despite and not thanks to the efforts of the Red Army.
Especially that is true if we take into account how active both veterans and active officers of the Soviet army were around 1991, supporting so called ""Interfront"" movement, set up and coordinated from Moscow, which tried to prevent restoration of Latvian independence by all means."
"I am sure you can tell them that ""ethnicities must go home"" like it is done in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC6QRowQ0pk&feature=related
Or Russians can be just stormtropped to the Kremlin border if they don't get it and pushed over, or.. I am sure Latvian patriots will fine some Final Solution for these pesky Ruskies causing so much trouble."
"This is a waste of a debate when there are more important issues relating to the present World.But,one part of the article was just so stupid i have to comment :-
""-- collaboration ended at the local station "".
Since when can anybody deliver an onnocent to a muderer and claim they are not as guilty as the murderer !.In English Law both face the same sentence,there is no mitigation for the former.History never tells the full story the ""winners "" get to write history,how many Russians debate ""Stalin starving the peasants in Russia by taking their food to feed the cities"".Enough said."
Stalin did not starve peasants to feed the cities. He - the Soviet government - was selling grain to the West in order to fund his "industrial revolution". Every idiot in Russia knows that, but I suppose, the westerners are spare the truth, as your government could easily embargo these deals and Stalin would have to stop ripping well-to-do peasants off.
"> neoconsRfascists
15 Oct 09, 4:59pm
""I am sure you can tell them..."" etc.
Blah blah...
Another episode when you are exercising in wittiness instead of addressing the real issues.
It feels like you are full of hatred and are enjoying it."
"Regarding Usakov's claim, see here how the Soviet Army was preparing for renovation of independence of Lithuania in 1991. I would like to see Usakovs repeating his speech in Vilnius in front of relatives of people crushed to death by Soviet tanks.
Some ""liberators""...."
"bypasser
Hitler's Germany were fighting for freedom? Isn't that the myth? It seems that you have never been liberated from that myth."
"A good article by Zuroff.
The revisionism is a little more than the unchallenged myths of Nazi righteousness resurfacing from the underground, this is what the far right have been waiting for.
Even if (big 'if') Cameron, Eric Pickles with his Nuremberg Defence, don't recognise it, then I hope that NATO, the EU and the UN do and will act accordingly.
The Nuremberg trials gave the appearance of dotting the i's and crossed the t's on worst excesses of WWII. It sought out the worst perpetrators but rather than tear Europe apart, the allies placed the largely with Hitler's Germany, closed the book and walked away. Unfortunately this it allowed war criminals to live out their lives free from the consequences.
While the allies couldn't have foreseen the consequences NATO must by now, know what is sheltering under its banner.
The fact that this has been done on the back of NATO's loss of moral authority is no excuse. Bush's attempt to reassert his authority by proposing to build an anti-missile shield in Russia's backyard has given those on the far right greater confidence, with many creepy crawlies coming out of the woodwork and demands for modernised armies. Do not re-arm them while this element is in control.
Now David Cameron has given neo-fascism the respectability it craves. This is not just mere revisionism, this is reinvention and resurrection. At best, this is rank opportunism on behalf of Cameron."
"I am not surprised to read Soviet propaganda on this website.
And somehow I am not even surprised by 8 commentators supporting Soviet propaganda.
(I know, it was my Grandma, a rural schoolteacher, and her 2 kids, aged 10 and 8, one of them with high fever, who were deported in 1939. Oh yes, and they owned land. That was the ""collaboration"".)
For any Westerners, sympatising with the USSR as an Ally, you should try living under that ally. Unless you would first earn cudos by participating in the expropriation and to an extent extermination of a whole class of people who own literallly anything, and then by carefully propping up a whole system of lies to justify the crimes, you would not feel very happy, I assure.
Looks like some of you (Chapaev, cmnimo) have gone quite far in practising the second art and regret you have been robbed of the chance to use it as widely as you would have wanted."
"> cmnimo
15 Oct 09, 8:03pm
bypasser
Hitler's Germany were fighting for freedom? Isn't that the myth? It seems that you have never been liberated from that myth.
Point 1:
You just used a traditional propaganda trick called ""The Straw Man"".
Wikipedia: ""A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To ""attack a straw man"" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the ""straw man""), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.""
Point 2:
To claim that Stalin's USSR was fighting for freedom is a myth to equal degree.
Yes, they were fighting for freedom from Nazis, but not for a freedom as such, as their (achieved) goal was installation of totalitarian 1984-style Communist regime.
Of course, that very much depends on what your definition of ""freedom"" is. I am afraid we might have different views here.
Here we see that, unfortunately, a historic opportunity for Nuremberg 2, this time for Communists, was missed in nineties. This indeed would have helped to clear the things up and indeed cross all t-s and put the dots on all i-s. Now it is too late as after initial confusion after fall of the Berlin Wall they have regrouped, dug in and are preparing for counter-attack."
"> cmnimo

15 Oct 09, 10:07pm
""The revisionism is a little more than the unchallenged myths of Nazi righteousness resurfacing from the underground, this is what the far right have been waiting for.""
I see.
To you anyone who even mentions Communist crimes is spreading Nazi myths.
Simple world you are living in."
"> Chapaev
14 Oct 09, 7:33pm
OK.
So you say Soviets were OK because they ""simply"" removed (via execution or deportation to camps) social elements who they did not see fit in their ""Communist Paradise""?
But I bet you would sternly object to a claim which would say that ""Nazis were OK because they ""simply"" removed (via execution or deportation to camps) ethnic elements who they did not see fit in their ""National-Socialist Paradise""?
Again, we come to the well known conclusion that people like you do not actually mind killing other people, but this killing shall be done ""right"" - in accordance to the truths of particular ideology.
Your mentioning of ""rehabilitation"" reminded me a funny article of some loco Holocaust denier where the author was seriously claiming that Nazi concentration camps were in fact ""rehabilitation"" camps, with fine healthcare and even swimming pools. Terrible? Yes indeed. But as wee see here that is not the case only with Nazi apologists, but Soviet apologists too.
In my hometown Soviets in June 1940 murdered all the best citizens of the town - they brought them out into the forest and shot in the back of the head. On e of them I remember clearly - he was the head of the local post office. Such a serious ""crime""!
By the way - one of those rehabilitated (to death) was the President of Republic of Latvia Karlis Ulmanis.
Besides your ""martyrdom of thousands of Communists"" kinda shows us that all this is not actually about reality, history, truth, it is all about religion, a Faith."
"This is painting it with too broad a brush. There were countries that did not align themselves with Nazi Germany and were occupied, e.g. Czechoslovakia and Greece. There it was the German troops calling the shots, not the local police. Hence mentioning Greece is irrelevant - they could not possibly have collaborated whether there were willing individuals or not!
From the aligned countries, Croatia and the Baltics did indeed chip in. However Bulgaria is a very different story - its jews were all saved. And, the East-West divide argued in the article is fiction: the only Western-European country that saved its jews from the death camps like Bulgaria is Denmark.
More objectivity please!"
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"> GreekForGodsGift
16 Oct 09, 2:50pm
""countries that did not align themselves with Nazi Germany and were occupied...Hence mentioning Greece is irrelevant...From the aligned countries, Croatia and the Baltics did indeed chip in""
Listen. You have to read a bit about the issue.
I have a news for you.
Baltic countries were occupied by Nazi Germany from 1941 till 1944.
The only difference between Baltic countries and Greece is that Baltics experienced double occupation - being conquered by Soviets before and after being conquered by Nazis.
Latvian Republic ceased to exist in summer of 1941 being overrun by Soviet hordes and re-emerged only in 1991, so there is absolutely no reason to talk about the country being aligned with Nazi Germany.
But I completely agree to your request to be more objective.
Your post is good example that exposes the propaganda we are dealing here with. I mean - when you read about your country, which you know, you immediately see that what is said is not true, but not knowing the actual facts about the other countries (it is very hard if not impossible) you are inclined to believe what is said, because it sounds plausible. But in fact it all is ""painted over with a wide brush"" to say the least."
"What a racist bigit Zuroff is.

In one fell swoop, all Eastern europeans have been branded by a Jewish campaigner who originated from the USA as worse killers than other Europeans while at the same time wondering aloud why the ""East Europeans"" as he calls them were not so happy to celebrate being ""liberated"" by the Soviet Communists.
The bottom line is this Mr Zuroff:
Thousands upon thousands of people in Eastern Europe were murdered in the Death Camps of Vorkuta and Kolyma by the Communist secret police the NKVD.
Other Europeans were not treated so, were they? Did you know that? Or are you completely surprised that your ""East Europeans"" had something against those who collaborated with the Soviet NKVD for personnel gain?
But of course we're not allowed to speak against that. That part is against what is often tought to the Americans by organisations supported by people such as you. It is not politically correct, is it?
Auschwitz is politically correct. Vorkuta is not politically correct.
Mr Zuroff .... you're preaching on a pedestal from a very racial-centric postion which does not accord with the centricity of the majority of Europeans. Your morality is shallow and misleading.
Put it another way. We're allowed to question and understand why the nazi germans were evil. But we're not allowed to question and understand why the Bolshevic Semites were so motivated against the coutries between Russia and germany, are we?
If we were, where would that lead us?
Mods ...."
"OK bypasser, point taken: maybe the Baltics were not aligned.
But I stand by my ""broad brush"" statement. The division anti-semitism/tolerance is not the same as Europe's East-West, not by any stretch of the imagination, as this article claims. Catholic countries like Spain (and Poland) are traditionally very anti-semitic, have been for centuries: the Jews of Spain were accused of witchcraft and of bringing down the Lord's wrath in the form of the Great Plague. So the Ottoman Empire (not a shining example of ethnic tolerance itself) had to give them safe haven in Solun, what is today the Greek city of Thessaloniki (17th century I believe).
We all know the origin of the word ""pogrom"" - it is Russian! But not Soviet mind you, Tsarist Russian - Stalin can be accused of all sorts of things but hardly of xenophobia towards other ethnicities. Yes big numbers of certain nationalities were deported within the USSR, e.g. Germans; however a) they were not killed just re-located to different lands, and b) this was a lot milder than say what happened to the Italians of Canada - they were rounded up and put in concentration camps for the duration of the war.
I abhore the attempts to re-write the history of WWII and diminish the role the Soviet peoples played and their sacrifices in defeating the Nazi beast; your usage of the word ""hordes"" is offensive enough, please apologise."
Ho won't. He is one of these who calls everyone racist when they tell him what he does not like hearing but ok when he wants to usu racist slur to insult others. The more I read his posts the stronger I feel, we in Britain, should keep our politicians out of any alliances with Latvian right.
"As eastern European countries become more autocratic, Brussels must build a legal and political toolkit for intervention
Are you serious?
The EU is contemptuous of democracy and the last organisation which should be called upon to defend it."
"The European Union cares only for one thing, and that is aggregating more and more power to itself. Why be concerned about the activities of petty autocrats in member states when the ultimate aim is to create a clique of really big autocrats in the centre?
These issues will all get swept under the carpet. The Commission and the Eurozone leaders are entirely absorbed by the desperate struggle to keep the single currency afloat. Figures such as Mr Ponta can do what they like to their own countries, so long as they aren't getting in the way of the Project."
Has anyone ever stopped to ask whether that's down to an increasing lack of faith in the EU, its currency, its economic policies and its 'democracy' in general?
If fewer people had the urge to intervene in order to impose their own ideas of how things should be done then perhaps the world would be a less troubled place.
"Response to printerink, 19 July 2012 5:46pm
Precisely.
The notion that the EU is the solution to democratic deficits is at best comical."
"Response to Pragmatism, 19 July 2012 5:53pm

Maybe, or perhaps doing nothing will also solve it."
"The EU is completely undemocratic. In a few years Governments will be afraid to anything a bit like in the Cold War governments behind the Iron Curtain they couldn't do anything before running it by the Man in Moscow. Our Governments will be afraid of the man from Brussels.
These Eurocrats are as bad as the Soviet Officials during the Cold war"
Since Brussels is quite happy to ignore referendum results it doesn't like, it's hardly n a good position to lecture others about democracy.
"ok, this is a question ive been meaning to ask for awhile, sorry if its stupid.
as far as i understand it the argument is that the eu is necessary for us to be properly united in order to be competitive in the global markets and face the giants, aka china, something we apparently would be unable to do if fragmented.
but what i dont get is what bad stuff would happen if we WEREN'T competitive? if the eu ended tomorrow, how would we suffer?"
"What a load of old bollards eh? At least Romanians get to elect their rulers with proportional representation.
Ours get in on a minority and then do worse things than they do in Eastern Europe, but it's respectable because they have more money.
If you want to influence the process in the UK, then voting won't make any difference. You need to get a job teaching in a public school where most of the kids go into banking, and in 20 years time hope for the best.
Look out for a school where mopst of the kids have double barreled names, like fossington-ringbinder, barrington-twatt, octagonal-teacosy, rotating-git."
"<now Romania, and perhaps Bulgaria next: one eastern European country after another seems to be sliding backwards from liberal democracy and towards what many observers now call ""Putinisation"">
I believe it is in 2014 at the latest that the populations of these two countries will have the same rights to move to and work in other EU countries as, for example, the Poles do now.
If this 'sliding backwards' continues and no action is taken perhaps large numbers from these countries will wish to move elsewhere.
The UK government should at least be giving some thought to the implications of this."
"""Is Brussells in a position to protect people from its own governments-perhaps even from themselves?""
Jesus H Christ could you get any more ignorant?
Votes on the treaty/constitution so far:
France NO
Netherlands NO
Ireland NO
Ireland 2nd vote under threat YES
So 75% NO then and that's being kind.
If you think the late additions are going to play ball,you're mental,truly,truly mental."
"People in Eastern Europe have a healthy attachement to actual results. That's why they get impatient with the endless process-driven talk and de facto status quo and paralysis in most of the West (perfectly represented by EU institutions themselves). So it is more likely to get radical ideas and non-standard politicians in the East than in the West. East embraced nationalism, clericalism, fascism, socialism, communism, capitalism, whatever came along as long as the perception by people was that things might get better.
People in the east go for the jugular, game the systems, and in general act in self-serving ways. This can be annoying, but is is also more honest and authentic. Capitalism in the east very quickly disintagrated into plutocracy, abuse of labor rights, tunneling of companies, and a general kleptocracy - things that took a lot longer in the West, although it is clearly happening in the West right now.
People in the West need to understand that abstract ""systems"" that don't deliver results are just that: empty verbiage surrounding well-hidden and self-serving power. The East provides a mirror: there can be no truly free media that is owned by private interests, there can be no general prosperity in dog-eats-dog capitalism, there is no such thing as ""meritocracy"" any more in the West than there is one in the East, and maybe there is no such thing as ""liberal democracy"", only better and worse ways to run a society.
The ugly truth is that without self-restraint by the powerful, without growing wealth, and without external unifying threats, all these pathologies from th East are appearing the West. The political threat of communism made the prosperity and balanced societies the West possible (maybe inevitable). That's gone, how are we going to do the right thing without this external threat?"
Lot of people whining about the EU. Instead of whining do something to change it. Too lazy to get off your ass or just talk?
"So they are ""sliding backwards"" in Hungary. A Hungarian might say they were ""sliding backwards"" when the previous Socialist regime (MSZP) lied through it's teeth. The Socialists slid back of course, slid back to being crushed beyond belief in the elections dropping from 40% to 19.3% of the vote.
Funnily enough, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Czechs and Romanians probably have a much better idea of what a ""colonization"" feels like than the above author. They have had first hand experience of it within their lifetimes, so one does not dismiss so easily talk that it is happening again."
"That was before ""mission creep"", over-consolidation and a rapidly changing world crept in though... Nearly everyone wants an EEC free-trade agreement like Norway & Switzerland have. Very few want a superstate whose only accountability derives from the fact that some 1992 politicians who haven't been in power for almost two decades voted for something beyond their own term in office. That's not quite ""democracy"" either.
Imagine if Cameron signed us up to a new supra-national entity today that decided the cuts would stay until 2032 even if Labour got back in. Now swap ""Cameron"" for the ""EU vs Greece"". Same thing. It's really weird the same people attacking the Greek cuts as ""morally wrong"" are the same ones defending the EU as ""a morally correct institute"" when the latter virtually created the former. Greeks may have overspent in some areas but the way the Euro is set-up virtually guarantees more debt if a country has no individual fiscal control, eg, can't raise interest rates which exaggerates a debt-fuelled credit boom (money becomes artificially cheaper to borrow) causing a much harsher bust.
1960's economics was different to 40's. 80's was different to 60's. Millennial was different to 80's, etc. People, nations and economies change over time. The EU needs to reflect that but doesn't precisely because of the heavy centralisation of power. Little will change in that respect. No-one can plan 20 years ahead, yet the EU rules are just that - a 1992 creation struggling in a 2012 world. If you want to see how that future singular continent wide economic planning worked out before the EU, look no further than post WW2 Bretton Woods agreement on gold prices. By early 70's, we were completely off the gold standard with free-floating currencies and ""pegs"" today ""are something only 3rd world countries do"" (unthinkable in the 50's & 60's).
It's ridiculous that such static perma-inflexibility surrounding the EU's response to problems is somehow being paraded as ""justified"" because ""it's a democracy"". Essentially voting for the future isn't democracy. Neither is rigidity / inflexibility most people's idea of everyday democratic participation."
"Sorry who? where? Why is this spoken about in an article about Hungary where Orban won the last election fairly with 52.73% of the vote.
The author of this article seems to have zero knowledge of the countries involved aside from some pro-EU soundbites.

You are not wrong, we all agreed to join this EUSSR.

I believe Orbán had enough of seeing Hungary as a part of the EUs neoliberal wet dream, the countries assets being sold off to Franco-German interests."
"Response to FaceTwitSpagBol, 19 July 2012 7:06pm

Sorry, our leaders decided to join this EUSSR, last I heard the people did not get a vote in most countries, it was ignored in others, and the was for something completely different 35+ years ago in others."
"It boggles one's mind to think that a British government ever thought it was a good idea to be in a 'union' with the likes of Romania and Bulgaria (also Hungary, Italy, Slovakia and Greece.... come to that).
More reasons for the UK to leave the EU."
"Step one: Become a democracy.
It's really astonishing how many countries and groups in this day and age forget this important step, until you realise that the likes of the US the EU mean democracy to be ""do everything we say, and ignore the democratic will of your own people, or anything which is actually in your country's interests."""
"Response to FaceTwitSpagBol, 19 July 2012 6:53pm
I am also not convinced, at least in the case of Hungary. As others have said, the EU is currently working actively against democracy: and as I understand it the interpretation of what is going on in Hungary comes largely from the plutocrats and neoliberals who wish to be free to spread their poison everywhere.
If the journalist wishes to assert that there is a move away for democracy it might be helpful if he outlined why he thinks that in some detail: I assume that each of these countries has its own history and poltical settlement: it would be quite odd if they were all the same
href=""http://thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net/?t=49401491"">http://thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net/?t=49401491"
"Response to FionaKabuki, 19 July 2012 7:28pm
http://thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net/?t=49401491
Sorry: sometimes I manage a live link and sometimes I don't: I am getting better though :)"
article is far too facile.....position in Eastern Europe (ie anywhere that was behind Iron Curtain from 1945- 1989) is vastly more complex that portrayed. The fact that Poland/Roumania/Bulgaria etc are in E U is a phenomenal advance over what occurred under Stalin etc post WW2......give the eastern Europeans a break......E U membership will, over time, sort out the mess of local politics and chauvinism and to a degree nascent racism which is apparent in eastern Europe now.
Maybe having an autocratic government is the best defence against a eurocratic super state
"Response to GoldKruger, 19 July 2012 5:50pm
This is a very good point. And it's worth noting that both Hungary and Romania - neither of which are in the eurozone - have suffered disproportionately since the start of the euro crisis.
The reasons for this are complex, but suffice it to say that Berlin's hardline policies on debt, by undermining the Southern European economies and thereby increasing the risk-premium throughout the continent, have pushed up borrowing costs for both Hungary and Romania. In addition, the latter's former vibrant trading relationship with Italy has suffered a mighty blow.
Unfortunately the exports of both Hungary and Romania go overwhelmingly to eurozone members. Thus they, as much as anyone, urgently require the eurozone to get its act in order as soon as possible. Are you listening Berlin?"
Given the present state of thing here. I would not be surprised if Bulgarians, Hungarians, and Romanians are not asking themselves the same questions. About the UK.
"Response to printerink, 19 July 2012 5:46pm
OPEN LETTER TO THE PARLIAMENT OF GREAT BRITAIN
Great Britain is known for being an ever watchful guardian of democracy and its values, therefore, I thought that the Parliament of the United Kingdom would be the place to ask for help, help to uphold the democracy in a country that only recently has been initiated only recently in the European Community, democracy that in the last few days has been stolen in the most disgraceful way.
The country I am talking about is Romania.
What happened in Romania in the last few days it’s a clear infringement of the democratic principles, the justice system and the Constitution.
In a total dictatorship style, Romania was taken over by the USL Party, a plagiarist for a Prim Minister, Comrade Victor Ponta and an egotistical President, Comrade Crin Antonescu that not only remind the World of the black days of the communist regime, but of the legionnaires of 1946.
I am asking Great Britain to vote the EXCLUSION of Romania from the European Union so that it’s present Government be shown that the dictatorship system and the dictators are not accepted anymore in the Europe of 2012.
Victor Ponta as well as Crin Antonescu in their address to the people of Romania undermined and disrespected the leaders of the other European countries and their negative remarks to the events that were unveiling in Romania, so in turn, they should be shown that in the 2012, you cannot be an isolated country and should learn to “play well with others”
The democracy and it’s principles is the most precious gift a President, a Prim Minister and the Government can give to the people of it’s country. The present Gov of Romania is robbing the Romanian people of it and that should not be allowed by any of the European countries, least of all Great Britain.
Please understand that it wasn’t easy to ask for such a harsh action, but in the same time, without such action right now, I am afraid that Romania will be forever lost back in time, back in the 1946 and it’s people will not ever come to know the real freedom and democracy that so many died for back in 1989.
Thank you"
Thought provoking stuff...
""" ...The EU ethos of compromise, mutual accommodation and deference towards national understandings of political values (something that British Eurosceptics often fail to see)...""
I think what British Eurosceptics actually see in this description is the cagey, hugger-mugger behaviour of a back-scratching transnational EU elite who are not to be trusted in anything they set out to put over on the member states' populations at large.
I assume many in Eastern Europe are reacting against the turbo-capitalism unleashed on their countries as soon as they were emancipated in and after 1989. It would probably make anyone a revanchist nationalist.
""Brussels must build a legal and political toolkit for intervention...""
It would be more sensible for it to build pig-styes in its yards and grow potatoes in its lawns, I can't help feeling. That way it might just pull through. And they say the *British* have delusions of grandeur?!..."
"Now this is typically kneejerk, patronising and stereotypical towards Eastern Europeans. First of all, the ""perhaps Bulgaria"" can only be explained by always amalgamating her with Romania, whenever the EU is the context - I know of no other reason.
FYI, the two just joined the EU at the same moment, nothing more. The politics of these two countries are vastly different! Especially at present: Bulgaria is run by a former body-guard propped-up on the ""throne"" by German (CDU/CSU) money and influence, therefore hailed as ""democratic"" no matter what - our SOB after all.
Also by the fact that ALL major Bulgarian newspapers are owned by German conglomerates like WAZ. Meanwhile, the most influential TV channel bTV is owned by Rupert Murdoch.
Romania on the other hand has been suffering by the divisiveness of two powerful cliques for almost a decade now, while one has had a grip on one power (executive) and the other - on another (the representative/figurehead Presidency).
More importantly, the quote above is very much pathetic for the use of ""Putinisation"". The Guardian has been told xillions of times, by commenters and authors alike that are not on its dubious payroll, that Putin won as President of the Russian federation due to de-facto being more popular than any Western leader can dream of.
This is Goebbels style propaganda first class -repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes a truth!
Finally, one needs to put things in South-Eastern Europe in perspective: while Romania (and Poland b.t.w. - for a different reason) was economically a desert in 1989, Hungary and Bulgaria had vibrant and advanced economies which were decimated by predatory Western practices. Suffice to consider the fate of major corporations like Ikarus, Tungsram, and Balkan Air, SO-MAT - respectively.
The Hungarians have very much sobered-up to the reality of being enslaved by the banksters and financiers, and are resisting the best they can (fierce nationalism), while the Bulgarians are conformist for one simple reason - they have lost hope and are despondent - thet is why they put up with Boyko Borisov!

How very Little-Englandish... I mean, to believe that in terms of culture and psyche a British national is closer to anyone from ""the Commonwealth"" (i.e. Pakistan and until recently - Burma, even the US COME TO THAT) than the proper (continental) part of the EU - this is mind-boggling!"
"How can the EU dictate to anyone about rights,freedom and democracy?.
It was built without the madate of 400 million people."
So where's my European passport, then?
"The EU has no constitution. Treaties are between governments and constitutions are between the governed and their government. No treaty is a constitution. The purpose of a constitution is to ensure individual human rights.
If every EU member had a constitution and enforced it this issue could not exist.
If an EU member were to violate its own constitution by this act it would also cede all legal legitimacy."
"I'm not sure if you are keeping up with current events but the EU is having it's economic arse kicked... It's only priority should be perhaps to try and find a solution to the economic self-destruct that's ticking down since they invented a currency and set in motion a chain of events that has turned out to be worse then the most pessimistic predictions of the time.
The EU does like an intervention though at any level, big or small, animal, vegetable or mineral, political, social or legal.
Maybe the EU should just concetrate on the bomb that's about to explode rather then trying to make sure everyone is equally tied down within the blast radius's epicentre..."
I maintained from the outset that the eastern bloc countries should never have been allowed to join the EU without stricter conditions. My plan was to create a second division union of the ex communist countries with promotion to the elite over time when their economies and politics justified full membership. Unfortunately it was the greed of the corporate bosses who only saw cheap labour to keep wages down which counted. And we are now paying the price for a mistake. It was difficult enough to have a club with 15 members but increasing it to 27 before proper rules and regulations were in place and with language and cultural differences has created an impossible situation virtually impossible to manage
"The European Commission is a group of non-elected technocrats who go around telling everyone what to do, usually after being lobbied by some corporate or other interest (and having their palms sufficiently greased). Maastricht treaty terms seemed to be a massive deal until Germany or France were in violation.
EU democracy? You're havin' a laugh. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
I approve of the EU as a means to create a stable and peaceful bloc through the redistribution of wealth to poorer countries, but you have to also recognise that richer countries gain opportunities for expansion into those poorer countries, and opportunities for growing their wealth. It works both ways. If there is a rise of nationalist, quasi-autocratic governments in these countries, then it's about time those hard-working Eurocrats sat down and asked themselves WHY?"
Has anyone ever looked to see if the EU breaks its own rules on the standards of democracy required for accession candidates ? I suspect it does, and is therefore not fit to be lecturing other nations.
"And those in power and or with great wealth will slowly fall.
It is with great pleasure that every week almost I hear of cases where the Anti-Corruption Prosecutor Office..DNA.. takes on the difficult an resource-consuming task of proving beyond a reasonable doubt very serious offences concerning corruption, kidnapping, fraud, money laundering and abuse of power etc.
Dino Patriciu, Romanian's richest man, is currently looking down the barrel of a 20 year sentence. See http://www.romania-insider.com/prosecutors-demand-20-years-in-jail-for-romanias-richest-man-in-rompetrol-case/61011/?utm_source=Romania+Business+Insider+MAIN&utm_campaign=9484ca5fb1-20_iulie_20127_19_2012&utm_medium=email . I hope is such cases that all assets are also compensated with a proportion re-invested in those who investigate and prosecute such cases.
Politicians and media critical of Romania should also openly support the work of institutions such as DNA if only for the fact that the current PM appears capable of abusing emergency powers and indeed may have impacted upon the surprising result that he was not guilty of plagiarism.
Those agencies and individuals confronting challenges to the rule of law in Romania should be openly and publicly supported."
The dissolution of the EUSSR is imminent.
"I don't think any country aspires for a Putinisation of the political life. What I think is most citizens in Europe (mostly continental, but even in Britain) have lost faith in a) democracy and b) free markets. I think people would prefer by and large a Xiaopingsation to a Cameronisation of their country.
The perception is democracy has brought in cronyism and free markets have brought in inequality and a firm belief that wealth does not come through hard work but through ruthlessness, not by outwitting but out-cheating others, not via open competition but via lobbying.
Many in Eastern Europe still prefer the current system to communism, but selling the American Dream on the basis that fairness = socialism, and that equality of rights and opportunity = equalitarism is an ideological time bomb. Neither The Dream nor Communism works, simply because they are extremes based on propaganda and run by plutocracies, in which minorities win and most of us are left with an ever larger debt and an ever smaller hope.
softcapitalist.bolgspot.co.uk"
Seeing as EU-sponsored technocrats are taking control of countries in southern Europe I hardly think it's best placed to promote democracy anywhere, whether that's eastern Europe, the Middle East or East Anglia.
"Maybe the real question is not ""how"" but whether ""should"" EU really intervene? And to what extent the reactions coming from the EU officialls stem from their ""benevolence"" toward ""the poor Easterners"" and how much of it is only watching their own interest. With the fall of Sarcozy the ""Austerity above anything else"" theme so dear to the soul of EU Conservatives has actually lost an important supporter. Far from being of the same magnitude, the role of the impeached Romanian president as a yes-man cannot be denied. But with the arrise of the Leftist coalition this yes-man was lost. Hence the haste to claim that what is in fact an ""almost democratic"" process, simply asking the people what they want is actually a ""coup d'etat""! The big fear in Bruxelles is the idea itself of asking the citizens what they want (Wow, democracy, what a horror!), because maybe these have a different idea about how they need to pay the price of austerity in order to bailout the banks. Maybe, just maybe, some EU citizens could find tempting the idea to discard alltogether the austerity and, God forbid!, let the banks to take the blame for the mess they have crated!
And, of course, the EUSSR does not want this to happen..."
"In Romania an elected parliament has decided to impeach the president through a referendum and the constitutional court of the country has declared this action as constitutionally right.
What are the EU and the author of this article complaining about? Especially bearing in mind that the EU has imposed a bunch of beurocrats to run Italy, without any regard for democratic ethos, to carry out corporate fiscal agenda. The EU has also supported a recent coups in south America against democratically elected goverments in line with its policy of not offending the US."
"We should just take a look at the USA, if they managed to keep united and functional such a vast territory, then we can do it to, after all, US inhabitants have European ancestors. The key of the US to this unity is the will of working together, no feuds, no grudges just a common goal. Europe has been at war since forever, mostly because of pride and greed.
I've read an article in ""the economist"" a while ago, about a visit of Timothy Geithner in Europe, where he was to meet leading figures from the EU. The europeans reacted as if they would have been insulted, by the ""american"" that comes to teach them whatever. The journalist form ""the economist"" stated a fact, Geithner cam e with one big plane, european officials came with many small planes. That's the difference between us, the EU and the USA. They are one big chunk of power,we are scattered pieces of weakness. It's time we leave aside the nationalist principles of 1848, they did their job then, today they are outdated."
"Sir
It is with interest that I read the story ""Europe's democracy dilemma – how and when to step in?"" by Mr Jan-Werner Mueller published on Thursday 19 July. I would be most grateful, however, if you could correct the inaccuracies in the story that relate to European Parliament President Martin Schulz and political bias.
The article says that President Schulz defended his fellow Socialist, Romania Prime Minister Victor Ponta during his government's moves to impeach right-wing President Trajan Basescu. This is simply not the complete picture.

President Schulz warned against premature condemnations until a full assessment could be undertaken by the competent European authorities. President Schulz also very early on expressed his doubts about the legitimacy of some of the Romanian government's actions and criticised the use of emergency decrees. He then met Prime Minister Ponta and publically called on him to respect European standards: independence of the judiciary and respect for the rule of law. When the European Commission published a report on what Romania needs to do to meet those standards, President Schulz was among the first to urge the Romania government to fulfil the recommendations immediately.
Armin Machmer
Spokesman of European Parliament President Martin Schulz"
"Response to Kimpatsu, 20 July 2012 1:57am
If you have a passport by one of the EU Member States, that's your EU passport. Why, wouldn't the EU be blamed as wasteful if it would insist in duplicating passports?
This is why there is a common design for passports all over the EU.
2013 has been will be the European Year of Citizens."
Sorry!
"How utterly depressing to find such comments under this article in The Guardian.
Everyone lines up to support right-wing and far-right regimes as long as they're not the EU.
Congratulations. You are voting for the 30's revamped. I make no comment on Romania, but look at Hungary, pulling out all its 30's memorabilia from Horthy through the Nazi writers and raising statues to them. Look at the over 350 amendments to its constitution so the laws passed at lightning speed by the present government should not be revoked. See what Orbán says regarding the new constitutional laws:

Within ten years you will have a far-right, extreme nationalist old Soviet bloc and you'll be properly back to the Thirties. Enjoy it when it comes."
You will find quite a number below the line complaining about it, in fact complaining about anything remotely linked to the EU. In fact they will be up in arms about anything with Europe in its name.
"Response to GoldKruger, 19 July 2012 7:02pm
Norway and Switzerland have to adopt almost all single market legislation through the EEA. The difference is they have no say in it. Euroscepticism is illogical."
"Response to GeorgeSz, 20 July 2012 4:40pm


You can surely produce a verifiable NSDAP membership card of those authors who do not fit the standards of the tolerant and humanitarian left-lib intellectualls, who were so quiet when Gyurcsány, Demszky and the rest of that corrupt, incompetent garbage were the assurance for the democracy in Hungary, successfully leading the country into economic collapse."
"1. In Hungary the current government was elected with a 2/3 majorityin a free and fair election PRECISELY to sort out the incredible mess made by the previous soc-lib government. If it causes the ""liberal"" aspect of democracy to be thrown out, then so be it.
2. Those ""many observers"" are a well definiable small group of leftwing whiners, who have nothing to do with Hungary, have either no understanding of what has Hungary gone through between 2002-2010 or guts to acknowledge their role in keeping silent about when Hungary has fallen to the miserable last position, from the previous leader status in economical perspectives and living standards in the region, thanks to their local comrades government.."
"Response to GreekForGodsGift, 19 July 2012 11:48pm

I am sure the fellow very much enjoys the cultural progress, social harmony with and civilizational blessings of the sizeable Muslim population in London, Brighton and elsewhere in Britain, do not mention the extreme economical prosperity that characterize these pockets of Eldorado.."
"Wrong mr Scott, Cameron is in a position where he can deliver a Britain that is a good and constructive neighbour to europe for once, and only he is able to do so, because only he is going to calm a factious electorate by delivering an EU they can live with:
http://jedibeeftrix.wordpress.com/2010/03/13/opportunity-or-threat-how-will-cameron-respond-to-the-proposal-of-a-european-monetary-fund/"
"We should either be in Europe or out.
The Tories know we have to be in, but please their little Engaland rump of voters by being very angry about it and teaming up with their right wing homophobic nationalist little rebel friends from Eastern Europeans.
If you are a little Engalnder, vote UKIP.
The tories are neither one thing or the other. They are making a joke of themselves in front of the mainstream centre right of Europe.
Vote lib dem."
Cameron has a strategy for Europe????
Someone give Cameron the link to Google Maps, because he has absolutely no idea where he is going regarding Europe.
"Oh look it's the Tories again.
'we'll not be run by Europe, etc'
And then we find them consorting with only slightly watered down equivalents of Nick Griffin. It looks as though Tory policy on Europe is to unite once and for all with people of all nations who also hate foreigners.
Perhaps cameron will give us all a day off to celebrate International Xenophobia
What a bunch of wombats. It's the Tories...here come the Tories."
or DomC, maybe Cameron is just a Nazi and that's why he likes rolling in the hay with them.
"Quite right, it was absolute unhinged madness to join up with homophobes, anti-Semitics and Nazi sympathisers, especially given the option of joining Merkel, Sarkozy et al, at the heart of European policy making.
Madness."
Perhaps the Tories took the tdecision to follow the tactic, if you want to appear sane stand next to even more overtly crazy people.
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"As an ""absent"" Brit who doesn't have his finger on the pulse at home like most of you do, would someone have an opinion on whether or not a referendum on joining Europe would be a good idea in most people's eyes and, if so, what the likely result would be?
Maybe I've missed something, but the answer to both those questions seems very unclear to me.
Thanks."
"I'm sure that Mr McMillan-Scott will find a ready audience here for his rather tawdry smearing of his former political party.
It's a shame that the EU hasn't figured higher in the campaign, and the conclusion one is forced to draw is that it hasn't figured higher because the parties don't want it to. The Tories, of course, would have risked losing votes to UKIP over the EU had they mentioned it. The Lib Dems and Labour have kept quiet too, because they know that their pro-EU stance is at odds with the majority of the country. The Lib Dems' famous attempt to weasel their way out of a vote on the Lisbon Treaty shows just how 'principled' they really are.
So bring on an election debate on the EU. Let's talk about the substantial pay rise the EU has awarded its employees despite the worst recession in 80 years. Let's talk about the obliteration of European and African fishing stocks under the CFP. Let's talk about the embarassing failure of the EU's foreign policy over Georgia and the disgraceful incompetence of 'Baroness Ashton' on practically every issue. Let's discuss the Strasbourg parliament and why it still hasn't been closed down. Let's talk, in detail, about the democratic deficit at the heart of the EU - a deficit that demanded another vote in every single country which said 'no'."
"ukguyinfrance

From the polls I've seen, the prospect of a referendum on the subject of the Euro or EU membership is popular, and the result would be significantly in favour of formal withdrawal from the EU and entry in to EFTA (around 55/35).
Those figures tell you why the three big parties refused to support a referendum of any kind. They're all ideologically wedded to EU membership."
"The problem with the EU is that it brooks no dissent or even opposition. Why the hell hell should the Tories have to group with those of a federalist bent?
Just one more reason to leave this increasingly unstable and dangerous alliance altogether."
"Holy carp did I just defend the Tories?!? Time for my medication and a lie down I think.
please remember graund the idea that the EU is a popular institution is a fallacy. In or out for chrissakes!!"
"What?! I didn't realise a vote would be as clear-cut as that! (Mind you, you seem to be missing 10% of voters lol!) I must say that as a de-facto European because of where I live I have lost much of my initial faith in its capacity to overcome what I see more and more of every day, and that's a total inability of member countries to do anything else but bat for their own side first and for Europe only when it suits them, which isn't often....
Thanks for your answer, it's very kind of you."
"_AT_ukguyinfrance

Utterly pointless. We already did that. In fact I voted.
What would happen is that the economic interests of the country would mean a certain 'yes'. But instead of shutting up as the LibDems for instance suppose, the foaming-at-the-mouth nutty Euro-haters will just carry on anyway - only louder - and we will have spent a lot of money to no purpose whatsoever.
About the only thing such a vote would achieve is to really, really mess up the Tories.
Hang on. So worth it just for that reason alone. :)"
"_AT_flatpackhamster
""From the polls I've seen, the prospect of a referendum on the subject of the Euro or EU membership is popular, and the result would be significantly in favour of formal withdrawal from the EU and entry in to EFTA (around 55/35).""
I don't know if your figures are right, especially as I have NEVER heard a proper case presented for the EU by anyone. As a supporter I have had to put the figures together myself. But it doesn't surprise me as the answer to all things in Britain is a head-long flight into the past.
In Britain if anything is wrong then run, run, run backwards as fast as you can. What would the Victorians have done?"
"_AT_ SimonGardner0, ukguyinfance et al.

No you have not and nor has anyone else. We were tricked into voting on a free trade area and lied to about the add ons. It is time to offer an honest choice and then we can all say we voted with our eyes wide open.
In would mean EU Superstate and the Euro.
Out would mean EFTA.
Seriously you would get stuffed by the noes and badly. But to be quite honest i would vote yes rather than this unsupportable half in half out mentality we have."
This article needs to be forwarded to every person you know. The voters need to know what they are getting themselves into before they make a huge mistake.
"Cameron promised to leave the EPP because he wanted to be Tory leader, pure and simple.
He broke his ""cast iron"" on a referendum.
Now he is on the verge of grasping an even bigger prize.
Watch how many more promises he'll break over the next few years."
"flatpackhamster SimonGardner0 bill40 et al,
Oops, what have we started?! If this proves anything, or not, it's that we desperately need another referendum, or not. Maybe. :)"
"You've gotta laugh: Hague will need all the luck he can get trying that argument - it's not as though the EPP need the Tories back; and since Cameron flounced off to form his own EU grouplet, he's not in a position to dictate 'terms'.
As for the rest of the article: it's a pretty cogent statement of the mess Cameron's made for himself: an unstable grouping of extremists and homophobes; a policy of 'renegotiation' that's been tried and failed before under Major; and the possible commitment to an in/out referendum sometime before 2014 simply to keep the crazies in his own party happy.
And that's assuming the Tories have a majority after the election."
"_AT_bill40

Oh yes I bloody well did. What part of ""ever closer union"" did you fail to understand? I understood it just fine, thanks"
Excuse me, but who gives a damn? I bet that only about 5 per cent of the electorate know about the Tories' alliance in the European Parliament, and I would wager that only a fraction of those will let it influence their vote on Thursday. Obviously McMillan Scott is trying to cause his former party as much damage as possible by climbing his endless hobby horse yet again. And why again use that horribly dishonest term "Europhobes" to describe those who criticise the EU? So give it a rest, dear Sir, we are simply not interested. Period.
"dfic1999
By that ""logic"", Clegg needs to kick that (possibly ""merely"" former) homophobe out of the party that he has control over."
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"I just saw one:
There is an argument that oil revenue belongs to all the Uk but for London, none.
Go for it!"
"flatpackhamster

I'm tempted to say that ""I don't know."" :)
But I'll say instead that apart from those genuine cases where people have weighed up the evidence and don't think they have enough to be able to decide, the rest must be Belgians, Greeks, Italians and Luxembourgeois domiciled in the UK, because they are the only people in Europe in whose countries voting is obligatory by law, and if you ""don't know"" you have to go anyway and vote ""blanc"" - or - ""I am not choosing."""
"jethromg
Wrong.
The Economist described the general opinion in Europe as being one of either Cameron is a nutter or he is hostage to a bunch of nutters (the Tory Party activists and Eurosceptics). Either way he will not be getting his way.
It is interesting though that Hague has distanced himself. I thought he was one of the prime movers behind the Tories leaving the EPP."
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"Mr David Cameron went down to the crossroads, and did a Deal With The Devil, or at least the Eurosceptic members of the Conservative Party.
He became the Party Leader.
Of course, we know that such deals always rebound, and, if he becomes Prime Minister he may find his position on Europe untenable.
Mr William Hague, nobody's fool, may be positioning himself for the day a stumble by Mr Cameron precipitates a fall from grace."
"The Tory policy on the EU is a disaster, as this article shows. Cameron had to provide something to show to the Eurosceptics, who supported him in his leadership bid in 2005, which was why he left the EPP, to join this group of homophobes and Climate Change deniers. But this has led him to become isolated from the other right wing parties in Europe, who he will need to do deals with over the things he claims to care about, such as Climate Change (believe it or not).
Any Government led by Cameron can never satisfy the Eurosceptic instincts of many in the Tory Party unless he provides an in or out Referendum, which a pragmatist like Cameron knows he can never do, because much of our prosperity is based on our membership of the EU. So prepare for more pointless battles with 'Europe' if Cameron wins on Thursday, to paper over his incoherent policy."
It would help if many British "Eurosceptics" really were sceptical rather than phobic to the point of racism & paranoia - they might take more note of what "right-wing" in Europe can sometimes mean. Sometimes it just means conservative, or centre-right. Sometimes it means Fascist. Even a fair few who can't be described as actually fascist are closer to the BNP than anyone in UKIP or the Norman Tebbit wing of the Tory Party. If you prioritize ideology over pragmatism you end up with lunatics for company - often one's who don't share most of your ideas anyway - like the "Respect" Coalition's SWP-Islamist alliance.
That's funny - there were 13 comments when I posted, now there are 8 different ones...
"Correction of broadcasting of the Radio of Jerevan.
ODS does not mean Civic Platforn, but Civic Democratic Party.
The ""leading MEP"" is complaining that he did not wanted to be in ECR, it was idea of the leading MEP Zahradil. He does not like, that there are no Germans in ECR and he is also afraid that Tories could leave ECR and the goup disolves.
He also expressed his distasted for baroness Ashcroft. He does not like her anti Pershing activities.
He did not said anything about plans ODS to leave the group"
I was looking for reaponses to a comment i made on anoter thread, I can still read it on my profile page but it has diappeared from the thread. Wonder if Coulson has found a private detective who can hack newspaper comments and remove those the Tories don't like.
"Never seen so many links for articles that prove absolutely nothing in years of reading this paper. And I read every one.
Smacks of desperation.
McMillan-Scott. Would you even bother with this paper a year ago?
""No I've seen the light !"""
McMillian-Scott is the Tory Lord Haw Haw.
"Just as the Tory leader sniffs power at home, his European alliance of 'nutters', in Clegg's words, threatens to disintegrate
No the whole ""Euro""is unravelling FAST .Sundays polls in Germany will be the beginning of the end for Merkel"
"Oh, it's you again.
You and Dennis McShane pop up at irregular intervals to run through an obssesive litany on an issue of interest only to political anoraks - because after all, there are plenty of left of centre political groups in Europe with a dodgy past.
Hopefully they are all (left and right) now getting on with the business of legitimate mainstream politics, having grown up.
But, one last chance to flog the dead horse (Mr Ed?) before the election eh?
And when you quote Clegg's reference to;
""his [Cameron's] European alliance of 'nutters'....""
that would be Clegg, the wholly impartial leader of the Liberal Democrats, would it?
Not an argument clincher."
This will be the first generation of Germans who have zero link themselves to the war and as such do not have the guilt their parents did. German taxpayers are finally awaking from the guilt ridden slumber. They are no longer prepared to bankroll half of Europe and unless the EU changes direction asap the Euro is finished.
"Crack appear in David Cameron's EU parliamentary group
Now, that's more like it ... crack-house crackers ..."
"barniebear22:

Someone left the gas on?"
The "EU project" is so depressing.
"All this talk about the Tories association with right-wing nutters, homophobes and anti-Semites so as to avoid being members of a pro-federalist EPP is not only a lot of hot air but a collective delusion of monumental proportions in which trap McMillan-Scott is the first to fall.
This obviously has escaped the Tories and the rest of British politicians and media, far more interested in looking for homophobes and anti-Semites, but all the parties that form the Tories new group are from countries that, by virtue of their EU accession treaties, are part of two federalist pillars that are just as federalist as the EPP itself: the euro and Schengen. An as far as I know, none of the parties to which these 'right-wing nutters' belong have a policy of abandoning the euro (or rather the commitment to join it) or Schengen (they wouldn?t be able to do that other than by leaving the EU altogether), which means that, the 'right wing nutter' associates of the Tories, while being just as right-wing as them are, de facto, essentially as federalist as the EPP. Their vision of Europe is inspired by the Christian right, e.g. declaring the EU a Christian alliance, banning all Muslim minarets and hijabs, make (Christian) religion teaching compulsory, banning abortion and homosexuality, etc. but they are absolutely relaxed about and supportive of the integrationist Bette-noirs of the UK Europhobes represented by EMU and Schengen. In short, the ECR is a right-wing, reformist alliance of convenience, not an anti-integrationist alliance. The only rabid anti-integrationists in the group are the Tories.
On one thing I wholeheartedly agree with the Europhobe Tory backbenchers: There should be an in or out referendum in this country with two options:
- Join the real EU, i.e. leaving the current EEC of the 1980s of which, by virtue of its dozens of opt-outs, the UK stands as sole remaining member (i.e. the UK is the only EU country that has refused to join the two key pillars that essentially mark the difference between the current EU and the EEC of the 1980s: EMU and Schengen, with most of the remaining differences, e.g. the President of the Council and the Baroness, being just window dressing)
- Leave the EU and negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU (good luck with that, as it won't be on terms chosen by Britain)"
Excuse me, but who gives a damn? I bet that only about 5 per cent of the electorate know about the Tories' alliance in the European Parliament, and I would wager that only a fraction of those will let it influence their vote on Thursday. Obviously McMillan Scott is trying to cause his former party as much damage as possible by climbing his endless hobby horse yet again. And why again use that horribly dishonest term "Europhobes" to describe those who criticise the EU? So give it a rest, dear Sir, we are simply not interested. Period.
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JorgeG - "Leave the EU and negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU (good luck with that, as it won't be on terms chosen by Britain)". I rather think, as the UK runs a large trade deficit with the EU, that it may well be on terms chosen by the UK. Or, at least, would be if we had politicians with sufficient balls.
"DavidLindsay
fascinating but confusing ... who are we meant to get in touch with?"
I always find Hague's TV appearances amusing as he desparately tries to make his colleagues less edifying decisions seem quite reasonable. Mouth says one thing, face says another.
"It wouldn't surprise if Cameron's alliance with these Rightist groups is set to end in tears and disarray. He's found himself playing in a team whose other members have their heads so far up their own backsides that they cannot hope to see a ball - that is to say, each seems to be entirely preoccupied with some deeply arcane in-gripe to do with its own nation, and not to have a brain-cell to spare for the wider world.
This doesn't strike me as an entirely unreasonable way to live. But it does not lend itself to the making of meaningful alliances. Cameron seems to have been a mug to think these coves would give a bugger for his ideas, or think about them for half a minute."
_AT_ zombus Yup, you are so right. These neo nazi/ right wing euro groups don't give a stuff about the UK's thoughts or opinions. We kid our selves that we matter in Europe or are indeed a so called world power. Let's see what the next few days bring and watch the shite hawks coming home to roost.
the tories say they will not join the european currency,and will not sign upto a federal europe,and the tories will bring more power over law making back to britain and its people,and any future european laws that europe tries to impose on britain will be voted on by the british public.
And unemployment in Italy? It's hardly easier to find work in Italy than in Spain these days. Good luck to the migrants at a time when even Italians aren't finding work in their country.
_AT_Pinturicchio10 - yup if i was a romanian I wouldnt be going to Italy or Spain but to the UK. Especially considering the unemployment and hostile natives.
"_AT_Pinturicchio10 - remember the headline unemployment numbers in Spain and Italy don't reflect the numbers on the ground because a lot of people are working in the black economy.
In other words unemployment is high but there are plenty of jobs for migrant labour, especially in Italy. But of course Britain is also a draw, it even legalises low immigrant pay with the Gangmaster laws from 2004.
European economies might be tanking but GDP per capita is still twice the level in Italy than Romania and Bulgaria, the two EU nation where income per person is lower than several African countries."
"The main destination countries for Romanian and Bulgarian (EU2) migrants are Spain and Italy, and to a lesser extent Germany. These choices reflect restrictions and freedoms on the right of Romanians and Bulgarians to work across the EU, employment opportunities and similarities in language
Similarities between Bulgarian and Italian/Spanish???"
"_AT_camera - I've visited Sofia a couple of times and pretty much everyone, from taxi drivers to bakery employers, spoke excellent English.
I think people are just assuming they are the same because they are next to eachother on the map.
I really hope Bulgaria doesnt stop letting Brits in."
"There was never likely to be the massive from far-SE Europe that haunts the imagination of ""Anglos Saxons"" living in the bucolic bliss of the counties. keeping little Englanders awake at night. It would benefit some to fetch an atlas and look at, say, Warsaw, and then Sofia, relative to, say, Hastings.
Besides, thousands of hellholes up and down the land were enriched by the advent of the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks who chose to settle there (mostly temporarily) to take up mostly labouring work that ""Anglo Saxons"" wouldn't touch. Certainly no one can claim the ""after"" Wisbechs, Daventries, Haverhills, Wakefields, Harwiches, Tivertons and so on... aren't livelier places than the ""befores""."
"_AT_camera 05 April 2013 9:31am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
They are all latin languages, Bulgarian politicians said the same thing - and its their native language.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/03/romanian-bulgarian-immigration-britain_n_2610044.html
It also their opinion that their countrymen will be more likely to go to Spain or Italy for all the same reasons cited in this article with the added emphasis on the extensive business links that exist with Italy and Spain."
"_AT_Calidris -


Not sure why you mention Warsaw as it hardly benefits your argument. Why are you also talking in the past tense? This hasn't happened yet!"
_AT_logos00 - Romanian is a latin language but Bulgarian is in the slavic language group and of course written in Cyrillic letters.
_AT_Koolio - The population of Spain is now falling as people move abroad to find work. It had previously seen a very rapid rise in population in the late 90s and early 2000's. The Spanish economy absorbed a huge number of migrants into its workforce primarily in construction but they are now moving abroad. Many North towards countries like the UK, other are going back to Latin America where employment opportunities have improved. The idea that large numbers of Rumanians and Bulgarians are going to find work in Spain is laughable. I suspect these studies have been influenced by pol;itical considerations.
_AT_Calidris - I guess you're not a tradesman whose wages were undercut by Polish workers then. I hope the genetrification of the 'hellholes' improves the value of your property.
_AT_camera - Do pay attention now. Romanians and Bulgarians. Of which Romanians take up a far higher proportion. And of course Romanian is very close to Italian/Spanish. Bulgarian, however... is Serbia or Macedonia in the EU?
"_AT_logos00 -
Read whatorly's reply.
I'm a Spanish speaker and I don't understand one word of Bulgarian, not one word. I don't see why the reverse would be any different."
_AT_Pinturicchio10 - I live in Bulgaria. People here know that I spent nearly 20 years in the UK, so they think I am an expert on all things British. Lately, everyone has been asking me why Brits think that Bulgarians have already packed and are just waiting for that fateful day in 2014 when restrictions will be lifted. They sound almost defensive, "What did we say or do to inspire this vitriol?" There are just 26,000 in the UK now. Think about it - that is a really small number. Everyone from Bulgaria who wants to work in the UK already does - there are many different ways to do this.
_AT_zenithmaster - It says Romanians and Bulgarians and not Romanians. So what is your point?
_AT_logos00 - Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. OMG, so wrong. Bulgarian is a Slavic language (the same group as Russian, Polish, Serbian, Macedonian, Croatian, etc.) No excuse for such ignorance, with Google just a click away.
_AT_Koolio - where do you get your facts? Plenty of work for migrant labour in Spain? You'd have to prove that to me, I don't see it anywhere. And it used to be obvious in every street. Not now.
_AT_Koolio - Might be. But I'm truly worried about what those people will find if and when they move to Italy and Spain. Basically finding work is the main means to integrate yourself within society and if they can't find it... it leaves the door open to all sorts of integration problems.
_AT_Calidris - And that was a party political broadcast by the Banker's Party.
_AT_zenithmaster - Totally agree with you. I've met a fair number of Romanians in the UK and France as well. They didn't have to wait until 2014 to be able to move there if they wanted to. I imagine there are quite a few of them already in Italy as well. Cameron clearly using the good old fear of an invasion from abroad for his political gain.
"_AT_zenithmaster 05 April 2013 12:24pm. Get cifFix for Chrome.
Sorry, I mean to write Romanian not Bulgarian. Apologies for the error. As you will see from the linked article and the words of the Romanian minister"
"_AT_Johanes / _AT_chrish - I did say more work in Italy than Spain, visit Italy and you'll find many Romanians in place already, exploited by ""organised"" people. Income levels in Romania and Bulgaria are so low that these people will be exploited for low wages in these countries.
Just as many Poles work in the UK for very low wages, now they might find they are displaced by newcomers willing to work for even lower wages. Whether this is widespread or unremarkable remains to be see. But the income differentials are a big incentive for people to find work."
"_AT_zenithmaster -
No. Serbia has been treated so badly with entry requirements that there is now a general feeling they do not want to come into the EU, as it will give them no advantages.
Croatia in May. The situation is bleak for the citizens, they will not be allowed unrestricted entry to other EU countries, taxes are hiked for the poorest, and there is no real rule of law. Very advantageous for the corrupt politicians and their families and friends, though. 90% of financial assets and 60% of industrial owned by Austrians, with Germans and Italians dividing the rest of the spoils, and now rubbing their hands with glee to get land and marine assets cheaply.
Next wave could include Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania, though I doubt the EU will survive that long, or at least the Euro Zone and if it does, that will be the final blow.
I've adopted a fatalistic attitude now. The EU has become a vicious colonial power, and it is unsurprising that the poorest victims need to leave their countries to find work, or be trapped in poverty zones."
_AT_zenithmaster - because they are vampires. No, that's Romanians, but as we don't know the difference best tar everyone with the same brush so as to be on the safe side. Meanwhile all those Aussies and Saffas sneak in pretending to be English.
_AT_angelamarica - I was only joking - Bulgarians can freely converse with Serbians and Macedonians, so I implied that Serbia and Macedonia might be good places for migrant work. Anyway, I am fully aware of the situation you are referring to.
"_AT_Calidris - The only point you make that is pertinent is that Warsaw is closer and the Polish economy is doing well. The rest is as badly jingoistic as the Daily Mails headlines to the counter.
""Besides, thousands of hellholes up and down the land were enriched by the advent of the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks who chose to settle there (mostly temporarily) "" - Enriched, how? With Polish Delis? If the migration was temporary, explain the increase in the UK population etc? But your greatest lie is the ""lto take up mostly labouring work that ""Anglo Saxons"" wouldn't touch."" - Since when have Anglo Saxons complained about being in the building or automotive industry.
You need to get out a bit more."
_AT_Happytravelling - The gist of this article is probably right. The numbers are being over egged by the "anti" immigration lobby but this article also does similar. Drawing parallels with Spain and Italy but not acknowledging that currently, in Europe, the country any economic migrant would want to got to is Germany. Further, having stated they wouldn't come they then say the current population, despite restrictions, is only about a fifth of those predicted to come once restrictions are eased....
_AT_chrish - I have a friend who works assisting Latin American immigrants who got residence in Spain and now have migrated to the UK....
_AT_Happytravelling - And the hilarity is, even though they work in this area, even she says she can't believe how lax he UK immigration and benefits system is (and they are an immigrant themselves, although from the current EU area).
"_AT_zenithmaster - Why is there so much vitriol?
26,000 Romanians were arrested for pick pocketing in London alone.
90%* of ATM fraud was committed by Romanians.
*not certain about this figure but it is very high."
_AT_logos00 - Bulgarians are not Latin, they are slaves, and speak a language that is somehow similar to Russian. Romanians are Latin and speak a language similar to Italian and Spanish.
"If you keep saying it people might think its true.
repeat after me....Romanians are more likely to go to Spain than the UK"
_AT_KeiKurono - I wonder if Cameron will apologise for insulting Romania and Bulgaria to appease his obnoxious tub thumpers? Somehow I doubt it.
"_AT_KeiKurono -
I live in Romania, the UK is just not very attractive to Romanians.
It clashes with their idea of good quality of life, it's a long way away and has crap transport links with Romania, the language is comparatively hard (a Romanian can become a fluent Spanish or Italian speaker in a matter of 3 months), there is no support network of Romanians to help setting up.
Anybody who thinks Romanians will go to the UK for 53 quid a week and a room in Moss Side is living in cloud cuckoo land, and has no experience of either living on benefits or migrating to a new country.
They will go in reasonably high numbers to Germany though."
_AT_ishotthemosso - This is what I've been hearing too. Of course there will be some, but the clue's in the name really: your Romanians are more likely to head for the latin countries.
"True but they have had a tough press in Spain and Italy with club or knife wielding hoodlums on mopeds bashing them in Italy etc..
Still, I have been to Romania many times and my experience of them is pretty positive. Maybe it is panic over nothing.
They definitely need to prevent the large scale abuse of benefits just in case some do come to take advantage of that - though this will be a minority of those coming for sure."
"_AT_ishotthemosso

Actually, it's about 2200 miles to Malaga, 1800 miles to Valencia, 1600 miles to Barcelona from Bucharest...and Bucharest to London is 1600 miles, London and the south-east being where I would have thought most people would head to - so it's actually closer than most of the areas of Spain where Romanians might be heading if they were aiming at say casual labour in the agricultural sector.
Also, it's true that it's far easier for a Romanian to learn a Romance language, but most Romanians will understand that one of the benefits of coming to the UK is the opportunity to learn English - from a global or even a European point of view a more useful skill than speaking either Italian or Spanish."
_AT_ishotthemosso - If what you say is true, how come there are 80,000 Romanians in the UK already?... That is our Govenment's findings. Someone must be telling porkies.
_AT_ishotthemosso - With close to 27% unemployment in Spain I would not advise Romanians and Bulgarians to move to Spain. The Spaniards are sick of having such huge immigration from these countries. There are more than 1 million Romanians and Bulgarians in Spain and they have occupied huge areas all over Spain. Their contribution to the country is null and have helped to make Spain go down the gutters. If more Romanians and Bulgarians come to Spain there could be a huge clash between natives and immigrants. There is no common root between Romanians and Spaniards as culture and way of living are absolutely different. The language is not enough to assimilate other peoples.
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_AT_ishotthemosso - Well what are all the Romanian Big Issue sellers doing here then? Are they living in "cloud cuckoo land"?
Italy and Germany are much closer, and both have substantial connections with Romania. There are 3 direct flights a day from Romania to the UK, there are dozens to Spain.
"80,000 people (if true) is a tiny number compared to the numbers in even France and Germany, never mind the big two, Spain and Italy. Everybody who was leaving has already gone, they didn't wait for the UK to let them in, 2 million Romanians live abroad, the only people who might consider coming to the UK now are the generation leaving school and uni now.
Nobody in Romania is talking about looking for work in the UK, it just doesn't come up. Very few people even know the law is changing."
"_AT_KeiKurono 05 April 2013 9:01am. Get cifFix for Chrome.

There has been no large scale abuse of benefits as the governments figures showed (contrary to what Cameron said in his speech)."
_AT_burntshed - Do you really think 80,000 is a high number?
"_AT_ishotthemosso -

I am not scaremongering but a lot of people who are economic migrants go where there already connections = people from their country. So the 80,000 will attract a few more. Migrant work quite often works like this ... one person goes abroad to work and then is followed by friends and family members on recommendation.
Its just a fact. the problem is the governments are dishonest, fail to monitor movements and allow numbers to build up suddenly in local areas which put pressure on LAs and local communities .. then there is resentment and anger ... which cannot be addressed because the truth is hidden for reasons of expediency. (e.g. the Brown incident in the last general election)."
"_AT_whatorly - I don't deny there'll be some immigration, but 50,000 need to come for there to be the same number of Romanians as there are Phillipinos, and 140,000 need to come for us to have the same number as we have Germans.
When did you last meet a Phillipino or a German?
We are probably talking 10k or so a year. Germany has an established population of 300k Romanians, a historical link through the German diaspora, a much stronger economy than ours and was receiving about 36k a year at the height of the crisis.
10k a year is not even going to make much difference to our immigration/emigration balance."
"_AT_ishotthemosso -

Just to be clear I am not against these people as people. Good luck to them in pursuit of a better life. This issue I was trying to point to was that by making no plans and not monitoring properly there is a risk of high concentrations of new people in local areas putting pressure on housing, schools, health and so forth ... which then feeds the racist knee jerk blame culture. If we faced up to this issue with courage and honesty this could be reduced if not avoided ... after its happened again and again over the last few decades."
_AT_whatorly - I think the government departments are facin up to it in a rational way, this report is sensible and informed. It's just nobody wants informed.
_AT_ishotthemosso - I hope you are right ... but it seems the same old stuff to me ...
"_AT_ishotthemosso - I am sure these people would love to live in a council house in the UK and live on £53 a week.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUS5KecU9ek"
_AT_ishotthemosso - see, a lot of Romanians are in Germany, and in every other country in Europe, except for the UK.
Anybody whose ever even met a Romanian could have told you this. The immigrants we get are likely to be young educated and English speaking.
"_AT_ishotthemosso - Exactly, and I've no doubt the government could have told you that too, but they're too busy scaremongering in order to justify cutting the social safety net.
The whole point of this scare has been to campaign for the benefits system to be 100% contribution based - allegedly so this small number of migrants don't get any.
We're apparently meant to think it's an entirely accidental side-effect (or blame the Bulgarians / Romanians / Gordon Brown) that such a move would also mean the huge number of unemployed young people wouldn't get any either, having made no contributions yet, nor would anyone long term unemployed, or anyone disabled and unlucky enough to fail an ATOS test (etc etc)."
_AT_junglecitizen - And what's wrong with benefits being contributions based? That's what happens in most European countries. Just as, in most European countries, there is no NHS, no free healthcare for the whole world. But of course the BBC/Guardian doesn't tell you that, because it doesn't accord with their world view.
_AT_Self - I do believe you've answered your own question as to why it is wrong.
"_AT_Self 05 April 2013 8:37am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
If there is no health care free at the point of delivery in other countries then all the citizens there would have to pay out of their own pocket.
Our health care is not free, it's paid for with taxes. Working immigrants will pay taxes so its perfectly reasonable that they then get to use health care.
Immigrants, as the governments own figures showed, are less likely to claim benefits that native Brits."
"_AT_ishotthemosso - Dream on! Rumanian criminal gangs, some of the most violent in Europe, have already caused havoc in Spain. They must surely be setting their sights on a ripe new target.
I have, by the way, met a number of Rumanians — some are hardworking, of course. But a secret policeman who hijacked me when I was in that country was anything but pleasant and civilised."
_AT_ElBairdo - Sorry mate but we're British, we have proper criminals, not like the Spanish. If you occasionally had a punch up like normal people do, perhaps the Eastern Europeans wouldn't find your criminal gangs such a push over.
_AT_Self - You're wrong. Romanian medical treatment has always been free (tax based) for the last 63 years at least. And Romanian doctors are good, even though sometimes hospitals run out of money because of our stupid government. But still I know doctors who've bought medication out of their own pocket not to let their patients die.
_AT_CatalinaLetitia - You are joking. To get treatment in a Romanian hospital you have to bribe an average of 3 people. It's often cheaper to go private.
"_AT_ishotthemosso - Nope, that's not true. My life was saved in numerous cases by doctors I haven't bribed at all. I had bad asthma as a child, nearly died couple of times before getting to the hospital, last time I got a bad pneumonia in 1998, when I was 21, and the doctor saved my life with treatment others didn't think it was possible. Yes, my family got him something in the end, after it all ended, but that only because we know how crappy doctors wages are in Romanian hospitals.
Last time my life was saved, 5 years ago, the doctor operated me of appendicitis in an emergency situation. Yes, I did give her some money afterwards, she was mostly ashamed she had to accept it. But then I went to the GP on a number of situations FOR FREE.
Anyways, now I'm perfectly healthy, in 2 years of working in the UK I needed the GP just for feminine problems and a skin condition I developed since coming to this country (lime level in water). So no worries, I'm not ripping NHS off."
"And one more thing: the doctor who save my life in 1998 also gave me free medicine, off the counter, so that I didn't pay for them. Even half priced, as I was entitled for being a student, the medicine was still pretty expensive and I had to undergo 9 month of continuous treatment to fully recover after the worst health situation in my whole life.
Not so in tune with the demonized image of the Romanian Health System, is it?"
_AT_Self - thank stars there is no NHS in other European country, they are so lucky. There is government sponsored healthcare in all Europe, even in Romania, but obviously one can decide to have a private insurance on top of the national health insurance. Like here.
_AT_CatalinaLetitia - I have been in a Romanian hospital, and had to pay a bribe to get treatment. You did pay a bribe in the cases described.
"_AT_ishotthemosso - No, I haven't. I was treated and saved without promising anything. It was my choice to give something in the end.
Well, if you judge anything by the first experience I guess you can also judge all women, for example, from the first one you had a relation with. It implies just the same logic."
_AT_ishotthemosso - and you have the problem solved, but in the NHS you bribe and nothing happens.
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Yeah cause there are so many jobs going in Spain at the moment.
"I know Poles, now working in UK, who left Spain 3 years ago because the Romanians had pinched all the jobs in Spain by working on the cheap.
Wait till they abolish the minimum wage here, that'll really get the competition going to see who will work for the lowest."
"_AT_MuttonAsLamb - In that case, simply prosecute the cowboy companies. Something that never happens in Spain because the whole society is on the fiddle.
When I lived in Barcelona there was a gang of Kosovans who burgled rich people's houses, inevitably getting away with 10's and sometimes hundreds of grand in cash. Not one of the newspaper reports ever asked why the hell somebody respectable would have a hundred grand in cash in their house."
_AT_MuttonAsLamb - no, the Poles left Spain because they could not speak Spanish. You want to tell that the Poles got thrown out of Spain by the Romanians?
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I don't want ANY EXTRA Romanians or Bulgarians coming to the UK - There are far too many here NOW - taking our precious unskilled jobs from indigenous workers - It is a total disgrace. REFERENDUM NOW - Re-election NOW - Tories OUT.
"_AT_Richardgrey - Precious unskilled jobs?
Listen - everyone in the UK has had over 10 years of free education. If you've enjoyed that advantage and are still looking for an unskilled job, something's gone wrong somewhere in your life, hasn't it?"
"_AT_Raptou - You may care to say that to British born Black and Asian young people who experience much higher unemployment than the average.
Too many economic immigrants already and employers who prefer them to the argumentative home-grown workers - those are the problems."
_AT_Raptou - But 'the kids' can't read or do basic maths when they leave school, so yeah you could say that something has gone wrong somewhere.
"_AT_Raptou - Something I notice about Guardian readers is that they think the idea of limiting immigration to protect unskilled workers is not a decent enough argument. And are quick to bad mouth their own countrymen for not being able to 'compete' for unskilled jobs with immigrants in the first place. But at the same time they protect and defend the right for non-native born Brits to claim benefits because not all immigrants are new arrivals and that they may have ""been in the country for 30 years"" and so are entitled to help.
If you are a native Brit but got a poor education = shame on you.
If you came to Britain 30 years ago and still rely on handouts = poor old you."
"_AT_Richardgrey - How many of the unskilled English workers go to pick strawberries in a farm?
Mind you, I've already got an English qualification I paid out of my own work in Health and Social Care, this on top of my University studies in Romania I plan to have NARIC check and see what do I need to do to get my Romanian diplomas level recognized in the UK. I know a lot of educated Romanians or Romanians who came here, studied in a college and got a NVQ/QCF diploma. So what unskilled workers are we talking about?
As long as there is no study/statistic on that, it's just pure speculation based on personal fear and failure."
_AT_hilltop - might be a reason there, the eastern Europeans DO work. It is the culture, they are embarrassed to be told off for laziness.
"_AT_Richardgrey - 'precious unskilled jobs from indigenous workers' - when did you see a Briton cleaning patients in a hospital, washing the floors and the toilets, working in agriculture, cleaning vomit in hotel rooms? the services developed in Britain because there were foreigners to do them, so jobs were created for serving you. Ask any young Briton if his/her dream is to become a plumber or a toilet cleaner.
But about Romanians and Bulgarians: you want any other immigrants to be welcomed?
conclusion: referendum now, re-election, Tories out, close the borders, throw out all the bloody foreigners, let's keep the purity, inbreeding."
"Rush"? Have any of the members of the EU elite, the MEPs, all the politicians, the IMF, the ECB, and so on, not worked out what these people are "rushing" from? There are 18 million ot more reasons why there is desperate movement amongst the people of Europe, which is, surprisingly enough, the number of decent jobs required to get Europe back on its feet.
The clearest possible repudiation of this report lies in the numbers already admitted to be here - not least by the Mets, who appear to have most of them in their cells.
"_AT_grumpyben 05 April 2013 7:42am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
Well that's clear as mud to me."
At least Spain is warmer.
_AT_ermolin - it must be the only reason there's no mass riots on a daily basis?!
_AT_DontPanic - Riots are more likely in warm weather.
_AT_DontPanic - And the football. Don't forget that. Great distraction technique.
_AT_ermolin - not this year it isn't.
"The Guardian ran a piece a few months back in which a survey said that 750,000 Romanians were planning to come to the UK:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/30/romania-immigration-negative-campaign

There are 20 million Romanians. 15% of 20,000,000 is 3,000,000. One-fourth of 3,000,000 is 750,000.
Something in the article doesn't add up."
"_AT_ranelagh75 05 April 2013 7:47am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Does the fact that they two surveys are completely different not mean anything to you?"
"_AT_grabsplatter - Yes. it means that no-one has the first bloomin' clue of what's going to happen next January, but if the recent experience with the other Eastern Europeans in 2004 is anything to go by, I'd expect a few hundred thousand to enter.
Since you ask."
"_AT_ranelagh75 05 April 2013 7:47am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
Of those 20 million an estimated 2.5 million have already emigrated, with 80,000 in the UK its clear most of them went elsewhere, mainly Italy and Spain.
Roughly 30% are under 14 or over 65. Add them to the ones who have already left and that gives you 42%.
So we are left with 58% or roughly 10.4 million, if we take 15% of them and divide by 4 we come out with about half your figure.
You opened by saying that the survey said 750,000 were planning to come. Firstly the survey never gave that figure, it only appears in your comment as a miscalculation.
Secondly, it is wrong to say the survey said they were planning to come.
The survey asked

this is very different to asking who is planning to come.
The survey also showed that it was the better educated respondents who said they would choose the UK, the less educated they were the more likely they were to choose Spain, Italy or Germany and were more likely to stay at home.
Of those with no education/low level of education only 4% chose the UK as their favoured destination."
_AT_ranelagh75 - You clearly have not got a clue. Romania and Bulgaria have been in the EU since 2007 and everyone from those countries who wanted to work in the UK already does.
"Our working class have been stitched up ... where are they going to work?
The working class don't have a voice, well at least no-one listens to them as they are ""uneducated"" and ""bigoted"" and they need ""cleverer"" and more ""enlightened"" minds to decide what is best for them."
"_AT_DaveyCooper 05 April 2013 7:56am. Get cifFix for Firefox.


I also remember those times but I also remember the change to the working class being encouraged to become little stockbrokers -- they bought the whole lie completely, thinking they were going to look down on others but all the time they were ensuring their own jobs became valueless. What little money did come back was spent on satellite dishes and the opium of Sky.
What was 'best for them' was decided by others and they lapped it up -- gave away the practice of thinking.
(I'm still 'established working class' according to the quiz)"
"_AT_DaveyCooper 05 April 2013 7:56am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
Three day week and power cuts, yes it was fab."
_AT_logos00 - don't forget the bread strikes
http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2013/04/01/britons-urged-not-to-panic-after-possible-sighting-of-bulgarian/
And?
"Wait a minute isn't this a repeat of the fiasco when a similar report said only a few thousand immigrants would come from Poland?
Unemployment in Spain is over 26% and benefits are generally linked to a work record in Spain - why on earth would they want to go to Spain?
""the immigrants we get are likely to be young, educated and English speaking"" in other words they will be directly competing for jobs with our own 1m unemployed young people !
This doesn't affect me personally but if I was young and unemployed or the parent of someone in that group I would be very unhappy about the prospect of thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians coming over."
_AT_Exlgo06 - this is exactly the problem the UK will be facing if there is in fact a significant number of 'young, educated, english speaking' migrants from Romania and Bulgaria. The migrants we have largely received so far from those two countries tend to not fit into any of those categories so much, they are the criminals, pickpockets and Roma Gypsy selling the Big Issue or playing their accordions on street corners. They are not exactly in competition with British youth for jobs, but this next wave certainly will be !!! But The Guardian seems to think that's actually a good thing, a whole generation of school leavers being denied their first step on the employment ladder because potentially hundreds of thousands of well educated Romanians and Bulgarians will beat them to it or simply push them off it. This the problem with immigration to the UK today, the country and it's populous is literally being slammed on all fronts, whether it's legal or illegal, EU or non-EU or whether immigrants are coming here for benefits or for work, either way there are going to be some very negative effects in some way or another. And in this situation it will definitely be the British youth that feel the brunt of them . . .
"_AT_Exlgo06 - there are Romanians in Spain since 1990, so I think they might be entitled to benefits if something happens to them. Also in Italy, Germany, the Netherlands, France, as a matter of fact in every country in Europe, except for Britain.
Most of the Romanians born after WW2 know English.
Highly educated English speaking Romanian immigrants - are you sure they will compete with the British? I really think they will compete mostly with other immigrants, which are more than welcomed.
You perceive this situation like there are thousands of people waiting at the borders for the New Years Eve just to rush in. They won't."
Whomever concocted this report, is deluding themselves. Probably the same author(s) who said that the Poles also would not be coming over in droves...
_AT_ravenbones - The difference is that Bulgarians and Romanians have been able to move and work in the UK since 2007 and basically everyone who wanted to work in the UK already does.
Is this report like the 12,000 polish immigrant report. I.E. complete bo!!ocks !!
"Would the author of the report bet their life on it. No, of course they wouldn't because they are talking out of their arse !!
Governments and politicians should be held accountable.
They should not be allowed to get away with lies and deception."
"Latinate language and culture be damned!! Once enough are here they have their own community.  - the former and low wage job. Both of these are plentiful in UK.
I am amazed at the same people who predicted 12,000 Poles, are now saying there won't be that many Bulgarians and Romanians. If you come from a socially deprived country, and can go to a country that will take care of you, the choice is obvious. The French have been saying this for years. This has always been the case with immigration; when are people going to stop dancing around the bleedin' obvious and see it for what it is?"
"_AT_paradiselost - There we have it, so the problem is what you see as being a strange culture and community.
""Oh I'm not bigot BUT..."""
"_AT_paradiselost - Britain is no paradise, let me tell you. The vast majority of East Europeans hate almost everything they've ever heard or learnt about this country - especially those like Poles and Slovaks, who may already be here but head back home again just as soon as they've improved their English and made some money to take with them.
I don't know where you get the idea that life in Grey Britain (""Dullsville"") is regarded by anyone as a bed of roses (except, 3rd-Worlders from the Indian Sub-Continent, like Keith Vaz!) because I can tell you that it is anything but. And as their destination of choice, 9 out of 10 jobless East Europeans would opt for virtually every other Western European country rather than the UK - if only they were not so much tougher to get into."
"_AT_BigBizness - if only they were not so much tougher to get into.
and there's the rub."
"_AT_BigBizness 05 April 2013 9:05am. Get cifFix for Chrome.

Can you back up that statement?"
"_AT_paradiselost 05 April 2013 8:20am. Get cifFix for Chrome.

You just like repeating this despite the fact there is no evidence for it.
The evidence shows that benefits are not a pull factor and that EU immigrants are less likely to claim benefits than native Brits."
_AT_BigBizness - My father came to Britain in the 1970's. He actually tried returning to his native country a few years ago in order to retire but returned to Britain because he realised he preferred this country. He considers himself British now.
"_AT_BigBizness -

Tougher? How? Unless your talking about countries outside the EU, you are wrong - freedom of movement is a basic EU right. And besides, it's not ""would"", they already opt for other EU states in much greater numbers."
"_AT_paradiselost - Latins do not built communities when they live in another country. Those are Asians.
Sometimes people leave their countries to be with their families, and for the Romanians coming and staying in England, that is the main reason. Nobody likes to be treated like a nobody by other immigrants. A Romanian will need to have deep family roots here in order to take all the hatred and discrimination that are thrown at him, especially by other ethnic groups.
What immigration are you fed-up with, in fact, and you take it on Romanians? Do you think it's wise?
'Latinate language and culture be damned' - go to a doctor"
"From Spain,
I can tell you that there are already a comunity of 700000 romanians living and working in Spain, then more probably than they emigrate to Spain despite the economic situation. Do not forget that we have a summer working season due the tourism industry and there is a high demand in this months of hospitality services"
"_AT_Joan Roig Planells 05 April 2013 8:21am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
25% unemployment in Spain and they let in millions of immigrants.
Very bright !"
"_AT_OrdinaryGezzer -
Did they have a choice? Any more than we have.
That's the EU for you."
"_AT_OrdinaryGezzer - It's not that simple to not 'let in' people. It's easy to move around Europe (no border control, unlike getting inot the UK) and, like a previous poster said, lots of people work in black (cash in hand).
Everyone here (I live in Spain too) is having a tough time of it and, I'm not saying it's a valid excuse, that's why lots of people are happy to pay for cheap labour, wherever it comes from."
"_AT_OrdinaryGezzer -
Dear friend, sorry not reply you before, but I was at work. I will try to explain you in a few lines what is about the romanians citizens working in Spain. As the article highlight is about latin roots of the romanian language and the social links that already exist for the romanians as main advantage to emigrate to Spain. This migration started much before the economic burst of the housing sector when still a high demand for this type of migrants. The reality is that 2 out of 3 migrants now are out of work (and this are included within the 25% of the unemployement Spain figures). As I have mentioned before, the touristic season it will start around may,
and a lot of hospitality business, for example, in the mediterranean area will begin to recruit new staffs, spaniards, english, germans, romanians...etc .The required skills often are related with the foreign languages mainly english, german, russian, dutch, etc because our services are addressed to this type of customers, and somentimes you can not find that the spanish workforce can fill all the summer season demand. Within the regions of Spain there are inequalities. In the region where I am living there is a 14% unemployment (that still very high, but not the 25%) and on the other hand, in some southern regions is more than a 30%.
By the way, I was myself working and living in UK, never I was in the dole, never I took any housing benefit, never I took any benefit from any place...and I was a blood donor, and cooperating with several NGO's ."
"I don't think the real question is in regard to the nationality of immigrants to the UK. The real question is about numbers. The UK's infrastructure is already over-stretched, our economy is just above flatline, we possess a welfare system that isn't fit for purpose.
There are many problems in this country and they need to be addressed, but it's easier for the government to pull a sleight-of-hand rather than tackle those issues. In this instance it's pointing the finger of blame at, or simply stirring-up prejudice, against 'foreigners'.
I personally believe the EU is a corrupt and failing concept - a trade agreement with politics bolted-on. The failings of the EU are part of the global economic problem, and when such problems occur those people who can tend to move around in an attempt to secure a better life."
"_AT_Ironspider 05 April 2013 8:27am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
laying in to foreigners won't affect any of the issues that lie at the heart of the UK's problems"
"_AT_Ironspider - I disagree on your comments on the EU -
it the UK govt that is the corrupt and failing concept.
Germany is a model of how to do things properly - the UK a consisent example of what not to do"
Utter delusion in this report...
"_AT_000a000 05 April 2013 8:28am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
because it doesn't confirm your prejudice
Great insight into the thinking of UKIP/BNP/EDL."
_AT_Bosp - but it supports your prejudice?
"_AT_cooperative5 05 April 2013 8:38am. Get cifFix for Chrome.

I'm not the one in furious denial of the news."
_AT_Bosp - the irony that you betray your own prejudice with your comments....do you understand what the word means?
David "Catastrophe" Cameron must be assuming Romanians and Bulgarians are even more dim-witted than his government, which is highly unlikely. Has he heard of the economic problems and unemployment rates in Italy and Spain?
_AT_DaoTe - Because the immigration policy started with Cameron, some people have very short memories. BTW I am not in favour of any political party, I think they all stink!
"_AT_DaoTe -

Bit like the last lot on the subject of Poles you mean?"
Spain has 25% unemployment, 55% in the under 25s. It is almost impossible to access the Dole, which in any event is a pittance, and there is no social housing. I doubt any Romanian would bother. The UK, on the other hand . . .
"_AT_Peter MacLeod - Rubbish - in Spain contributory unemployment benefit is payable for up to two years (80 per cent of what you were earning when you had a job for the first six months, 60 per cent thereafter) and is not means tested. After the contributory unemployment benefit has expired, you can claim non contributory benefit of 400 euros a month - much more than the fifty quid a week you'd get in the UK.
There is, of course, a huge black economy, so the figures for unemployment are by no means accurate.
There is a lot of social housing (viviendas de protección oficial) and the rents in the private sector have nose-dived due to too little demand and too many properties on offer.
Above all, there is already a huge Romanian community in Spain - more than for any other country in the world (having overtaken Moroccans during the past few years) and more than double the number of ex-pat Brits. I'd be surprised if the Romanians who wanted to emigrate from their country hadn't already done so."
"_AT_Peter MacLeod -
Have you ever seen a Spain?"
UKIP/EDL/BNP astroturferes out in force today I see. Chaps, just swamping every thread here doesn't make it look at if you have popular support. It just makes you look desperate.
_AT_Bosp - and exactly how do you know where popular support lies?
"_AT_Bosp -
Your attempted tarnishing with EDL/BNP is really quite pathetic"
"_AT_cooperative5 05 April 2013 8:37am. Get cifFix for Chrome.

2 things
One is that opinion polls put UKIp on only 17%
The other is that there are a lot of people posting on this issue who only ever post on this issue. it's clearly astroturfing, and if you have to astroturf you don't have real support."
"_AT_StalinWasLeftWing 05 April 2013 9:21am. Get cifFix for Chrome.

Oh grow up and stop complaining
I'm just pointing out that amongst the UKIP astroturfers there are some with clear EDL/BNP agendas. UKIP's problem is thta it's s keen to have support that it's not taking enough care to distance itself from the more outrageous stuff posted."
"_AT_Bosp 05 April 2013 9:58am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
Interesting to see how very desperate they are, eh ?"
"_AT_Bosp - Yes, Bosp, it's a bit like voters. A lot of people vote for UKIP who don't normally bother to vote.
Maybe you should think about what that really means..."
_AT_Bosp - when you've lost the argument, resort to insults and the "Racist" (BNP/EDL) card.....predictable and pathetic
"Well, there's a story stating the opposite over on the Telegraph.
I know who I believe.
And it isn't the Guardian."
20k of Poles came to Southampton in the first months of 2005. And how many more since? Who knows?
"_AT_IStock 05 April 2013 8:36am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Do you have source for that? -- no, a real source.
20,000 extra? hmmm."
They would say that, wouldn't they!
"Now, lets not let facts get in the way of an opportunity to attack immigrants. You know, the ones that this country of ours needs in order to function. The ones that care for our old and our sick. That help build our roads and buildings. The ones that pay their own way and contribute to our economy and society. Yeah, really inconvenient truths these.
Meanwhile, the Brits that stole billions because their banks gambled our money away......the silence is deafening. No brick wall to stop them stealing again. No jail or forced internment. No witch hunt in the gutter press. Just excuses.
The causes of our countries problems and peoples increasing hardship stem from decisions taken by a minority of very rich people inside our borders, not outside them. A clue....No's 10 and 11 Downing Street. Oh...and they are British."
_AT_SkyeMartyn - Maybe we can train our million unemployed youths to do all that. When we vote out the government we can vote for the opposition who will punish the bankers, won't they???
"_AT_UKNorth - Maybe we can train some of our massive unemployed to do the jobs that need to be done, yes. But, to assume that every British job available can (and should) be done by a Brit is frankly, absurd. Jobs should be given to the person best able to do the job, regardless. And we should have a living wage to ensure people at the bottom are able to live and force employers to do the right thing instead of undercutting people.
But, what we should be really concentrating on is not vilifying the poor from other counties, but tacking the greed that forces people to move in the firs place. UKIP and the rest are not offering anything but the status quo on these kinds of issues - they are rich capitalists after all. They simply like to spout easy, eye catching soundbites that do nothing to address root causes of migration at all. Laws, petty attacks and crude walls will not stop people trying to improve their lives, and that is a fact."
"_AT_SkyeMartyn -


Why's that? It seems natural to me that a country will look after its own before letting outsiders benefit. Almost all jobs done by immigrants could easily be done by a Brit. And the reason we don't have a living wage is precisely because migrants have caused an over-supply of labour and driven down its price (i.e. wages)!"
_AT_BobJanova - Well, will I give you an example? In our local hospital and GP surgery - at the margins of the UK - the NHS can't attract the staff from the UK to fill posts. They either simply don't exist or they won't move. So, we have immigrants from Europe to fill them - and they are great. So, are we just supposed to do without or are you suggesting British workers should be forced to go where the work is, or forced to do a job they don't want to?
_AT_BobJanova - Incidentally, the reason we don't have a living wage is because we have a British government that doesn't give a toss about the poor, regardless of nationality. They are too busy looking after their rich mates. As for wages they are set by British employers. They employ cheep labour because they are only interested in cutting their overheads. So, here's an idea, why don't you go and ask those British employers why they shaft British workers in favor of cheap wages?
"_AT_SkyeMartyn -


That would be because the pay and conditions offered by the NHS are not good enough to attract Brits ... because immigrants will take jobs for lower pay and with worse conditions, driving down wages and working quality! That's a perfect example of what I said is a problem with immigration! If it wasn't for all the immigrants, then the NHS (and private business and other groups that have low pay) would have to offer better conditions to get their jobs filled.
(By the way, if there are good jobs on Skye, I'm sure there are lots of people who'd love to live there.)


Well, sure. Businesses are capitalist entities and by definition only interested in the bottom line. That's why it needs to be a state level adjustment to the labour market, by stopping people adding supply at the bottom end. You can't expect businesses to voluntarily pay more than they need to for anything, labour included."
_AT_BobJanova - Are you so naive as to think your politicians will cut money out of their own pockets to pay better for your doctors and nurses? By the way, does anybody have any real information of how wages went down in NHS and Social Care because of the immigrants?
_AT_BobJanova - when did you last see a young Briton washing vomit from a hotel floor?
This report pumped out by a bunch from the social elite is utter tosh. All other reports state the exact opposite and for those Bulgarians and Romanians to go to Spain would mean they would get less welfare than in Britain - so the logic does not fit what this report states.
_AT_Taleah Prince - Why do you instantly assume they will come here for welfare payments? I see a lot of Polish people working in the jobs with shift patterns that UK born people won't even consider.
"_AT_Jezzebelle -
That's rubbish.
I live on a housing estate with hundreds unemployed close to the BMW factory and the place employs hundreds of migrants via employment agencies in jobs that were never even advertised or heard about here.
Al l that baloney about they are only coming over to clean our loos or dig up spuds is just that, Baloney."
_AT_Taleah Prince - Pathetic comment, you should apologize to all hard working people searching for a better life, ridiculous argument, lets all go to the UK and put up with stupid people like you.
"_AT_Jezzebelle - I'm sick of people peddling the myth that UK born people 'won't evn consider' doing lots of unskilled jobs.
UK born people can't do low-wage jobs and send the money back home to buy themselves a mansion. UK born people can't live 4 to a room for a year whilst making enough money to buy themselves a plot of land back home. If there was another country that unskilled UK born people could travel to and work in jobs that had a low wage in that country but would buy them a home in the UK we'd have to build more airplanes to fit the stampede on!"
_AT_Jezzebelle - "Immigrants do jobs that UK people won't" is another way of saying "Job conditions (wages or hours) are bad because immigrants will accept worse conditions" – which is exactly what I and other anti-immigrationists say is a problem with it. If that's true, and I agree it is, then the presence of immigrants is the reason those jobs have such poor working conditions in the first place. If they weren't here, then the companies offering those jobs would have to offer better pay and/or conditions to attract applicants.
_AT_Taleah Prince - I personally know hundreds of Bulgarians who have worked abroad or still do. Not a single has gone there expecting benefits. In fact, most of them are not even aware they are entitled to them or how comprehensive they are. Spain, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, France - they all have much more generous welfare systems. Stop talking out of your ignorant aRse!
I remember Harriet Harman forecasting how many Poles will come over. Why would they? She asked when asked if the figure could be above all forecasts. Not many, maybe a couple of thousand, was what the government was saying at the time. Do not believe these figures which a merely a ploy! Truth is, nobody knows.
If Romanian and Bulgarian will migrate to Italy, the only thing they will find is unemployment. Matter of facts. It 's easier that even Italians will come in UK.
"But it does have a point about the cultural reasons why migrants move. So many Poles came to the UK in 2004 because of of UK-Polish ties, many already had relatives who had lived in the UK having fought under British high command in WW2. Many already spoke English because the Polish education system is geared to these ties.

There's another factor though. In 2004 UK was among a group of just 3 EU countries that Polish migrants could choose to travel to, which must have funneled more into the UK than if there was a wider choice. As far as I'm aware Romanians will now have the entire EU (27 countries) to choose from.
Another thing - the UK of 2004 was far more prosperous than the UK of 2011. There were many jobs then, there aren't now. Romanians will go where the jobs are. Poland is now prosperous, they might even go there - it is a 9 hour drive from Cluj (Romania) to Krakow (Poland). That's an easier commute than taking Ryanair to Essex."
"_AT_marma77 -

Why not?
Spain is - by far - the most popular choice for migrant Brits.
It might be logical to presume other nationalities might want the same."
"_AT_marma77 -

Italy and Romania do not actually have much by way of 'cultural ties'. Yes, Romanian is a Latin language - though heavily influenced by the surrounding non-Latin languages -but probably no more similar to Italian than German is to English - a speaker of Romanian would have to devote considerable time and effort to learning Italian. Culturally, Romania is a Balkan nation: the people are Orthodox, not Catholic, and the culture is far more similar to that of Bulgaria or Greece than Italy or Spain."
_AT_oommph - You should realise that those who support uncontrolled immigration repeat that the immigrants don`t take jobs and in fact create more jobs. Why the heck should any government worth its salt not want immigration? The more the merrier. in fact I am surprised that Italy, spain and Greece don`t hire boats, planes and trains to bring immigrants into their countries. 25% unemployment? reduced at a stroke by bringing in loads of people.......They must be stupid not to encourage it. it has worked so well in the UK, we have no unemployment at all thanks to the 200,000 a year that come into the country.........................................
_AT_KrustytheKlown - This is 100% rubbish. You are wrong all the way. Although surrounded by Slav nations Romania kept the culture and the language, as a way to survive the communism imposed from outside. You need a reality check.
It's not about the quantity of immigration, it's the quality that's important. Most of the new wave of East European immigrants will be fine but there will be a a significant minority who will attempt to milk the system,. The vanguard can already be seen in big cities sitting on stools outside supermarkets selling 'The Big Issue' in order to get self employed benefits. Much of the money goes to gang masters.
"So who is right on this, the Foreign Office or Cameron?
Time will tell."
"I just wonder how many of the ranters are ex-pats who thought they'd escaped all the forriners by going somewhere foreign.
Certainly looks that way -- or UKIP have used their money from the EU to set up a drone centre."
"_AT_ElmerPhudd - That's like a comment from the David Icke forums!
""You disagree with me, so you are a dis-information agent"""
"_AT_monders 05 April 2013 9:26am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Well, UKIP are buggered without money from the Europe they despise.
Farage for lizard King! --- there is something of the reptile about him."
Let's be honest,no one knows what the hell is actually going to happen. What is really clear is that we have lost control of our borders and can only sit and wait.
_AT_Hull - The control over borders was lost ages ago, not in the last 20 years.
Historically Spain, but now given their economy? Don't think so.
"_AT_haardvark -
25% unemployment an economy in much worse state than UK. What idiots compiled this study?"
_AT_leonore - it is sunny and warm though. The same idiots who predicted the 25,000 Polish?
It is obvious that there will be thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians migrating to Britain. These people are unwelcome and should not be allowed entry to our overcrowded country.
"_AT_NewLabourWeary -
Working class people as studies show do not want any more immigration. Yet Labour MP`s have a middle class socialist obsession with mass immigration even though none of them live in an area affected by it"
_AT_NewLabourWeary - It's not about being allowed. Any EU citizen has the right to freedom of movement. Deal with it!
_AT_NewLabourWeary - Obvious for who? Do you really think Britain is so attractive for Romanians? Who overcrowded Britain? the Romanians? What about going at the border and kill some Romanians, when they try to enter, will that make you happy? What about other immigrants, which come in hundreds of thousands a year? are they welcome?
I went to Greece on holiday in 2010. The hotel entertainment team was entirely Romanian as were many of the other hotel staff. I went again to the same hotel in 2011 and this had changed. The entertainment team were Dutch and the hotel staff seemed entirely Greek. The Romanians had disappeared. Perhaps as the Greek economy worsened, the Romanians moved on.
Which department said 25,000 Polish?
We've heard that one before.
The fact is that more people emigrate from the UK every year than immigrate to the UK. Stop worrying so much about the people who want to move to the UK and ask yourselves why so many people are leaving.
_AT_luvtabea - Anyone who wants a decent standard of living and a safe environment, and is upwardly mobile, is leaving the UK, due mostly to the fact it has become a dumping ground for the worlds poor.
"_AT_luvtabea - Except the government itself will tell you it is not a fact.
Educate yourself: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/29/net-migration-falls-quarter

Now look up the word ""net"". Here's a clue from the same article:

Now 536,000 minus 353,000 equals what then?
I don't know why you assert something as ""fact"" when every available statistic from housing lists to the census to HM government and even the EU will tell you otherwise. The power of wishful thinking ain't that great I'm afraid. I'd sincerely love the UK population to be falling to a sustainable level.
It ain't happening and won't until the fall-out of our membership of the EU is managed correctly."
_AT_haardvark - Anyone who knows me knows that sometimes I say idiotic things-now you know it too.
_AT_luvtabea - Not even nearly true. Net immigration has been positive for a long time.
"_AT_Montie99 -

Not they aren't. That group sits at home, attached to a keyboard, whinging about other people.
The level of outward migration by Brits has dropped since the free credit tap was turned off, the pound sank and so on.
Those of us that actually do it tend to move for positive reasons - love, downshifting and so on."
_AT_oommph - you didnt see the BBC report on White flight then i take it
_AT_oommph - and on that note, most of the commentors on the BBC website re. the white flight article said they left because they now felt like strangers in their own towns , due to high levels of immigration , and that their towns had become dangerous shitholes. People, mostly working class, voted with their feet and left. The planks on the left who claim to represent these people do no such thing, they love mass immigration as it makes them feel all humanitarian and superior, but they never have to live with the consequences, ie., they dont live in working class or poor areas.
_AT_oommph - Most of the skilled young people I know have either moved to places like Australia or Singapore, or they're trying to. I guess they can see the ship going down.
Tell a lie .... It was 15,000 a year Polish ( read the wrong report ).
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Labour said the same " only 15,000 Polish will come" then it ended up being a million!
_AT_StalinWasLeftWing - a million? you are talking about other immigrants, not Europeans. Star counting
Don't make me laugh
"and we have 2.5 million out of work - for gods sake can't we just close our borders? What happens when there's not enough food to go around - or enough electricity - are we still going to be letting people in ?
Its irresponsible in the extreme"
"_AT_chattyman -

Britain is not even in the top 50 densest populated countries.
for gods sake can't we just close our borders? What happens when there's not enough food to go around - or enough electricity - are we still going to be letting people in ?
Well, we depend on trade for both food and electricity, we buy much of it on preferential terms from other European countries and the conditions for that include not closing our borders. Not to mention the disastrous effect on the economy of putting off people coming here to invest and do business.
Also, as far as EU migrants go, they contribute 30% more in tax than they cost in benefits/services - so we'd be losing out."
_AT_chattyman - Jeez, the Common Agricultural Policy (an EU program) is one of the few things keeping our farms and farmers solvent. If the farmers go out of business, then where the heck is our food going to come from.
_AT_chattyman - You cannot close the borders to EU citizens, as they all have the right to freedom of movement throughout the EU. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
_AT_whollymoley - It is cheaper to buy food on the world market than in the EU.
_AT_chattyman - you are absolutely right. close the borders to keep the purity of the nation. Good inbreeding.
"_AT_Cordite -
I guess you'd better tell all those supermarkets with loads of European produce then!
We import twice as much food as we export - much of it from the rest of Europe, for good economic reasons."
Spain has banned Romanians till the end of the year unless they have a work contract. The EU has allowed this.
_AT_bewarethemedia - Spain didn't have to let them in at all until the end of the year (just like the UK) but there are already more Romanian ex-pats in Spain then immigrants of any other nationality.
"Really....
Why would they go there when our economy is so much better and our benefit system is much more generous. ??"
_AT_lewstone1934 - Immigrants often create their own economy - legally or illegally - and it's far easier to do this "under the radar" in southern Europe than in the UK. The UK's benefits system is not more generous than Spain's - that's just a myth.
"This will enter the history books as the first time that senior British government spokespersons were openly racialistic about citizens of other European countries. I, pesonally, do not see how it is possible to be racialistic about people from European countries, because it is like being racialistic about yourself. So bigoted are they, however, that somehow they managed it.
At some point in the future it will be necessary to unravel all of this pent-up anger that they have against all things European. Perhaps our friends on the other side of the Channel will forgive, in the end, this N.Korean approach to foreign affairs."
_AT_pacificist - you are in lala land
_AT_pacificist - someone attacked your sentence with a comma gun
"_AT_pacificist - You are on the wrong side of this debate.
It doesn't matter what the European's or our politicians think. We are leaving the European Union and if our politicians don't get up to speed on this, come 2015 we'll get some that do."
_AT_pacificist - Any valid point you may have made is totally nullified by your use of "racialistic". Ali G anyone?
_AT_pacificist - in Britain I learned a joke: French hate Britons, Germans hate Britons. Britons hate everybody.
"“ those who do come are not planning to exploit the benefits system and public services. The researchers say it is not possible to put an accurate or reliable figure on how many people will come to Britain”
Few British workers plan to be unemployed!
It is clear from the above statement they simply don’t know how many people will come,the rest is just spin.
Having worked in Sony DADC where the workforce is predominately European workers, I asked many of them why they had chosen to come to Britain to come and work rather than alternatives; around 70% of the 30 people I asked gave the same reason. That in their country English was a second language and although their English wasn’t brilliant it did tip the scales in considering other destinations. They also told me that in their country (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Lithuania etc.) that they were surprised that in this country people didn’t mind them taking their jobs, whereas in their country it would be given to their on nationality before someone from another country.  The company mentioned has a preference for European labour and advertise posts in a little Polish food shop. With successive governments labelling the British unemployed as scroungers and lazy, they are contributing to their continued unemployment by sending out the message that European workers have a “better work ethic” In so doing they turn against their own countryman at the very time we all need to pull together."
"_AT_endeavourto -

I would have thought such a statement was illegal under EU employment law."
They should hose them exclusively in Islington ........but as long as they are housed in working class areas they are not the problem of the Guardian chattering classes.
_AT_Montie99 - well, they should house them I meant to say but maybe hose them as well
_AT_Montie99 - Hose them? Re-open public baths, I suppose you mean? Or are you advocating some sort of fire brigade public wash-down on the streets?
"""They are overwhelmingly aged under 35 and tend to have slightly higher skill levels than similar migrants in the rest of Europe. They tend to work in hospitality, cleaning services and construction.""

As for Spain I have just returned and I can tell you there are hundreds of thousands there already waiting for january so that they can come and live in the land of milk and free money."
"_AT_ragnarbloodaxe - ""As for Spain I have just returned""
What was you 'con' for getting into their country? Or is free travel OK for you, just not for everyone else?"
"_AT_ragnarbloodaxe -

Well no, because that's not true, is it.
The report is very clear: ""They are overwhelmingly aged under 35 and tend to have slightly higher skill levels than similar migrants in the rest of Europe. They tend to work in hospitality, cleaning services and construction.""
Unless you have other evidence?"
"_AT_whollymoley - Well I have had a conversation with Big Issue sellers where they told me they were Romanian Roma.
Then I saw them meeting up in other towns and coordinating their pitches. About 20 of them.
You really can't miss them, they're the ones who look Romanian and speak Romanian."
"_AT_sweik - We have the same here, a group of about 12 of them who rotate around the pitches in the nearby towns, selling the Big Issue.
Give them their due, they work hard, put the hours in, in all weathers.
Business is bad, i'm told- had a chat with one the other day; a very pleasant young woman.
But others in her group can be a bit more pushy, verging on aggressive begging.
It's a long way to travel, just to be homeless."
"_AT_JeanetteFotherington -
No issue with people working hard, what I do have an issue with is being told a lie by the press and the politicians.
'There will not be a large scale influx of people and even if there is, they will be well educated and benefit the country'
I don't think so, all I see is employers getting a mobile, docile workforce who will work for much less, boost their profits and displace existing workers - who will then be paid for by PAYE taxes, or 'other people' as they are known.
Its a cracking wheeze unless you're a member of the UK working class, which I am."
_AT_whollymoley - Look at the evidence from Spain. It has around 900,000 Rumanians — many work at menial tasks but many are also engaged in highly organised begging, prostitution and the most violent crime. For the criminals and the beggars the UK must appear the promised land.
"_AT_ElBairdo -

Sorry, but you saying ""many"" is not evidence..."
"_AT_sweik -

Sounds like a problem of national importance! ;)
And sorry, but you saying ""I have had a conversation"" is not evidence..."
"_AT_whollymoley - hey you said its not happening, all I am saying is I am seeing and hearing otherwise.
Do you have any evidence to the contrary apart from a report produced by politicians?
I mean, when have they ever lied to use before?
And sorry, but you telling me I am wrong doesn't change what I am seeing and hearing."
"_AT_sweik -

The report's not produced by politicians - it's by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, commissioned by the Foreign Office.
And yes, EU migrants contribute 30% more in tax than they cost in benefits/services."
"_AT_sweik -
...also: I didn't say it wasn't happening, I said that _AT_ragnarbloodaxe was wrong to make out begging/Big Issue was the main reason people came or was the activity of most of them.
It's just not true."
"_AT_JeanetteFotherington -

Just tell them you've already read that copy of the Big Issue."
"_AT_whollymoley - Sorry was out shopping.
Hmm, thanks for the report, but its nothing to do with what we were talking about. We were talking about Romanian presence in the UK and you telling me I was having a delusion.
Nice to know people are paying tax, but this isn't the question. Rather, nice to see the document says people are paying tax but in the words of Mandy Rice-Davies, they would say that wouldn't they?
Oh, your comment about the FO and government not being linked was incredibly optimistic, both of them benefit from a continuation of the status quo. Do you believe everything a civil servant and a politician tells you?"
"_AT_sweik - How stupidly racist is this?
Who look Romanian and speak Romanian? If you met me on the street you'd have a shock and maybe die of a heart attack, because I don't look at all Romanian, as your high knowledge of what Romanians look like and talk would tell you.
Yes, I am raged by your stupid racism. But then I am compassionate as well. You really don't know what you're talking about and mainly why you're doing it."
"_AT_sweik - look Romanian? How does a Romanian look different from any other European? Or Briton for that matter? Do Romanian have fangs?
Oh I got it: they don't smell like rotten onion. that might be the secret."
A politician, a corporate banker, an immigrant, and a middle-class voter are sat having a cup of tea and have a plate with twenty biscuits on it. The banker reaches over and takes 19 biscuits and slips 9 of them to the politician. The politician nudges the voter and whispers "watch out, that immigrant is after your biscuit...
_AT_cheeselow - The biscuits weren't Halal, that's all
_AT_cheeselow - Nice one - the entire immigration "debate" in a nutshell!
"This madness absolutely will not stop until the negative sides of uncontrolled population increase either directly affect the people who matter in this country or a complacent public finally vote for a political movement to actually put a stop to the insane political ideology of changing our home beyond recognition without consent and against our interests.
Did you smell the panic in the CiF articles against UKIP?
I don't want them in government but ."
"_AT_haardvark -
Careful now the chattering classes may dismiss you as a populist soon..."
"_AT_haardvark -

No, it would just harm our interests and reduce our influence in getting reform - while paying their salaries (and funding their party when they can get away with it) - as they do sweet FA once elected..."
_AT_whollymoley - When will you europhiles understand that our influence on getting reform is zero? So long as we remain in the EU, we are in a minority of 1 against 26.
"_AT_Realityforme -

Sorry, but that's just paranoid nonsense."
"_AT_whollymoley -
“Sorry, but that’s just paranoid nonsense.”
“Paranoia – form of mental disorder, especially of grandeur, pride, persecution”
So, which form of mental disorder are you saying that I have?
Have you had me medically examined?
Obviously not, so why do you make such an allegation?
Your comment says more about you than it does about me.
I have no idea who you are, or whether you are young, old, intelligent, stupid, or deranged, nor would I accuse you of mental, moral or physical deficiencies unless I had evidence.
Feel free to comment that in your eyes what I posted was nonsense; but then back up your assertion with facts and keep the CIF pages a zone of civilised debate."
"_AT_Realityforme -
I didn't say you had paranoia - I said the statement ""we are in a minority of 1 against 26"" was paranoid nonsense.
The statement certainly expresses imagined persecution, since the UK gets what it wants out of the EU more often than not:
In terms of just some of the big things - the EU Single Market was a policy pushed by the UK, as was enlargement of the EU to include Eastern Europe. Only a month or so ago, the UK achieved a cut in the EU budget with the backing of most of Northern Europe. The EU has signed or is negotiating trade deals with South Korea, India and the US - all pushed by the UK."
"_AT_whollymoley - “the UK gets what it wants out of the EU more often than not:”
So, to give just a few examples, the majority of British people are happy with the following?
Unrestricted immigration from anywhere in the EU.
Human Rights legislation making it impossible to deport convicted terrorists.
(Don’t say that the Human Rights Court is not the EU – a condition of EU membership is to accept the jurisdiction of the court)
Live animal exports that under EU law cannot be banned.
The over-fishing and enormous waste of fish stocks made inevitable by EU legislation.
That huge increases in energy bills are a direct result of EU environmental legislation.
The country covered in wind turbines and, in the near future, power outages because under EU law our coal-fired power stations have to be shut down before there is any alternative in place.
The requirement that 10% of vehicle fuel be biomass by 2020, costing nearly 10% of our farmland or the equivalent in imported food.
That our daily net contribution to the EU is about £50 million.
That Britain has no right to sign its own treaties with other countries.
That our parliament in Westminster has no power to change or override any legislation coming from Brussels.
That we cannot remove any EU commissioners (the ones who make the laws behind closed doors).
That the EU has decided to steal money from ordinary depositors in Cyprus and has made it clear it will do so elsewhere if it thinks it necessary.
That the European Arrest Warrant makes it possible for foreign police to extradite and imprison British citizens without bringing them to trial for months or even years in some cases and for acts that are not crimes under British law.
Instead of calling others paranoid (people who make paranoid statements are paranoid) try examining your own lack of logic and think about ditching the europhile ideology that blinds you to common sense."
"_AT_Realityforme -

No. Anyone can make a statement that's paranoid in nature - that doesn't necessarily make them paranoid... unless diagnosis methods have changed recently?
I try to be careful to address people's statements rather than them personally...

...in contrast to your own statements! ;)
But in reply, I'd say half of that list is untrue or inaccurate. And many British people do in fact agree with many of those things - when stated truthfully and accurately - especially when put in context with the benefits we get in return.
But to return to your initial point, the UK has not opposed most of these things - and when we are, we often have allies - so to say ""we are in a minority of 1 against 26"" is indeed nonsense."
_AT_whollymoley - which items on the list are untrue or inaccurate?
Headline should read, "Cameron telling truth unlikely"
"Like only 30000 Poles came to live here you mean.
I don't believe it and I don't think that the Foreign Office / politicians believe it either."
"Grt real!
They will head for the Nation with the biggest suckers on Earth.
US! the one who are only in the EU to take everybody elses cast offs. The funny thing is we pay them billions for the privalige"
Almost none of the 800,000 (yes 800,000) Romanians in Spain are working. Most live in squalor in shanties around Madrid. I think there's every chance some will try their luck here. Many no doubt learnt English as their foreign language in school.
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_AT_Hullhappiness - Really? Did you go there, count them and get proof of their unemployment?
"_AT_Hullhappiness - this is your invention, or a nasty lie. Or the 'genius' who told you that was taking the mick. not to work is considered shameful and embarrassing in Romanian culture, so, forgive me, but you are very far away from the truth. Just a small number of Romanians live around Madrid, (if you saw more Romanians it was probably the same, after he went home to have a shower and change his clothes). Most of the Romanians in Spain live in areas where their work is appreciated and needed.
So check your sources before you start writing rubbish."
No one is going to Spain, for goodness sake. These people want to work. Why would they go to a place with 25% unemployment?
"_AT_SoAnnoyed 05 April 2013 9:51am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
Sunny"
_AT_SoAnnoyed - Unemployment percentage depends on the way you report it, in some countries if you work few hours per week or have a part time job you don't show in the statistics as unemployed, in Spain you do unless you have a permanent job with all rights.
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"Living between Spain at Italy at the moment I can inform you that some 60 %
of the migrants who have been living in these countries for the last ten years or so seem to have gone home , little work, no money!
I am sure that the UK with its unlimited benefits for foreigners will be much more attractive !"
_AT_andrichrose - Living in Spain right now I can assure ou that Romanians are not going back home... I would say just the contrary
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"also let s not forget that uk can impose some restriction on benefits etc for people coming without jobs.
EU it's a club, either we are part of it or we are not.
which means we can move to other countries which are part of the EU and allow people of the EU to move to the UK if they want to do so.
freedom goes both ways."
"_AT_theremustbeadiffway -

Really? Spain gives free emergency treatment, but healthcare requires insurance. Have all those who retired there moved into state funded housing or did they take the equity from their houses in the UK and house themselves?"
"_AT_theremustbeadiffway 05 April 2013 9:57am. Get cifFix for Chrome.

yep
problem is they have driven away anyone with a genuine interest in discussing the subject, so it just becomes a UKIP/EDL/BNP echo chamber
Chaps, astroturfing CIF doesn't make it look as if you have popular support. It just makes you look desperate."
"_AT_haardvark -
ohh.. how about schools, roads, police, and anything else?
btw in italy you dont need an insurance.
not every country works exaclty the same (so in france you need an insurance). my point is that several hundred thousands brits live in europe benefiting of services provided for which they have not necessarely contributed.
and so be it. it s a small price to pay for freedom of movement.
perhaps you cannot grasp the concept..."
"_AT_haardvark -

Almost all migrants to the UK house themselves, too? It's how most people live, isn't it?
We are a far, far less welfare dependent community than non-migrants/ locals."
_AT_haardvark - Spain has a health system free and universal.
"You mean skilled tradesmen don't want to come to a recession-ravaged frigid drizzly island that holds foreigner-hating competitions in the popular press?
I feel insulted!
I'm going to write to my UKIP candidate and demand that foreigners be brought here, by force if necessary, and be made to read the Daily Mail, talk incessantly about the weather and treat Premier League football as a religion until they all grow paunches and tattoos and can then be naturalized."
"_AT_Atavism -
And ideally they should be Muslim as well because the more heated the comments more the entertainment value."
_AT_Atavism - Ha ha ha, Mr Philpott is Rumanian.
Reading the comments, one would think that the Polish immigration has been a disaster for the UK. Yet I don't see much evidence for that.
_AT_Maenander - Try talking to out of work Brits who have had 'their jobs' taken by immigrant Poles who compete with them. Or a builder or plumber who is scraping by because all the competition has lowered prices.
_AT_BobJanova - Damn! it's terrible to be outpriced by a foreigner who works better and in some cases more professionally.
"_AT_AntoHeArpon - ...and what of the British tradesmen who have British living costs and families to support? ...
Lets drive them out of work and onto the dole, screw those guys huh, as long as you get your cheap labour?"
_AT_Maenander - They put me and about 20 other British guys out of work when they came, the company put them all on self employed contracts working for about £20 a day... but I don't suppose you noticed that as it didn't effect you, so there's no apparent evidence.
_AT_AntoHeArpon - Because they live ten to a room, split the rent, which no working person with a family can compete with, send most of their money home so dont contribute to the economy, often only work with their own nationals and will not employ a British person. How are they allowed to advertise jobs only in Polish...surely this is illegal as it restricts "equal opportunities"? Most Asian businesses only employ Asians, but i don't hear anybody complaining about those inequalities.
"_AT_BobJanova - I don't see you judge the whole world situation in the same terms. You are human after all, aren't you? Only by chance born in one nation or another.
So how do the Romanians feel for rich countries to get the economical monopoly and dictate how things work in the world? Hmm, not nice, isn't it? For every rich person in this world there's probably thousands of poor people, but I guess nobody thinks: oh, in order for my car to be priced as it is some people in Asia are so poor that they barely stay alive."
"I recently spent a couple of months living in the Moldovan capital of Chisinau, just over the border from Romania. People there speak Romanian (like in Romania itself). The majority of those I spoke to didn't have a very good understanding of English and said it was much easier for them to learn other Romance languages (like Romanian). Interestingly, they said that Italian and Spanish were very similar to their own language and would be the easiest to pick up. Italy and Spain are also a bit closer to Romania and the cost of living there is lower than in the UK. That's why I'd agreed that more Romanians will move in that direction rather than coming over here.
Being overly paranoid about every Eastern European wanting to come to the UK is ridiculous. I've spent many years living in Russia and other Eastern European countries and met few people who had serious plans to move to the UK. The bottom line for the vast majority of them is that if they move here, they will be at a disadvantage in terms of the language, their career, social status and sense of community (Brits aren't great at welcoming foreigners, we tolerate rather than integrate most of the time).
P.S. What about all the retired British expats moving to Bulgaria to buy up cheap property by the sea? Anyone can be an immigrant..."
_AT_englishrussia - If you can afford to support yourself and your family, no problem, with no access to benefits / healthcare (self funded) for 5 years, then no problem
_AT_englishrussia - Funny that.... British people are always called expats, and Eastern Europeans are always called migrants. Why isn't a British person in Bulgaria called a migrant and a Bulgarian in London an expat? Seems the language has been hijacked.
_AT_dkaszeta - do mean like ...when everyone east of Italy is Asian?
"_AT_englishrussia - Odd that as the Big Issue sellers in East Anglia are all Roma, should I let them know they're lost and should move to Spain?
Sorry, but you're totally wrong."
_AT_dkaszeta - Because they are economic migrants. Ex-pats are usually reasonably affluent and choose to buy a property in a warmer climate, taking their life long earned money with them to pay for their living costs and therefore spending money in said country..
"_AT_Anxian -
No, most of expats are spending their British state pensions in said country, to take advantage of the lower cost of living. As as I'm sure you're aware, British state pensions are unfunded - meaning they are paid out of current tax revenues, not prior contributions. In other words, all those expats are not spending their money in other countries. They're spending our money."
"_AT_panpies - Oh so they don't buy property, take money with them then? they all just live on pensions now? even if that were true, which its quite obviously not, those ex-pats paid tax in this country on their earnings all their lives and are entitled to their pensions.
They are spending money they already paid into our social system."
"_AT_Anxian -

But that's not how pensions work - we need to maintain the working age population to pay for existing pensioners
Migrants help in doing this"
"Does the fact that these people will rush for Spain or Italy make the situation any less dire? Up to the middle ages it was the way on the continent that successive tribes would sweep in from the east and displace those that it found in its way.  not by force of mind or science or any other measure of humanity but by sheer, brutal, force. Is this the continental mindset, the sort of thinking that suggested that seeking lebensraum was a natural, commendable or rightful act?
That the central powers actively encourage it no matter how it effects complete and necessary cultures is not only callous but it groundless, even dangerous, it is ante-cultural promoting the possibility of industry above the necessity for difference, nonconformity (the possibility of the evolution of a contrary politics, an opposing view; embodying all the elements of the redistribution not only of means but the generation of alien ways, the brutalisation of history).
For German, thwarted in real time it is a continuation of her politics by other means. For Britain, that has rightly stood against the ex-nomadic brutality, it is crime against her evolution and the concerted aims of centuries.
If the purpose of such allowance is to so mingle the blood of Europe as to make it that no race exists, that no culture can be unique, as an enabler to the unification of Europe as one people, then this is the worst, most grotesque, action against sovereign peoples ever undertaken, it is a form of genocide callously undertaken to prove the efficacy of an unproven doctrine."
_AT_EuropeanOnion - Excellent article.
"_AT_EuropeanOnion -

Just 3.6% of the UK population come from another EU country - and a big chunk of that is from Ireland.
And despite your paranoid anti-German rant, Germany is home to more immigrants in general, and far more EU migrants, than the UK."
"On a selfish level the more immigrants the better, pushes up rents and house prices, provides more cheap plumbers, plenty of staff to serve in pubs and cafes, they are not competing with me or my children for work.
However just wait for the 'guardanistas' to be wailing in 12 months time that unemployment is worse and it's all the Governments economic policy thats at fault.
It seems to me that the employment situation in the 50's and 60's just cannot be compared to the current position. So many more people have the right to work here that we will never have 'full' employment as any country that is creating jobs, like the UK, automatically becomes a target for immigrants."
_AT_Exlgo06 - Creating jobs? You mean like the big factories opening for couple of years in a country like Romania, only to move later to another one further East, because the profit lowers as the country's prices go up? Yeap, that's what creating jobs means on a global scale now, doesn't it?
"Just one small question,we have two and a half million unemployed people in this Country.Should we not find jobs for these people before having more people entering the jobs market.
Perhaps we could have Widdecombe as an Employment Czar for she actually found a job for Philpot.I know he did not take it,but,what a performance from the old dear."

"_AT_OpenSeas 05 April 2013 10:15am. Get cifFix for Chrome.

If your poor anyway, id rather be poor in the sun than poor here.
I think also the level of crime / black market money that can be obtained is a lot easier in Spain and Italy than here.
I fucking hate this country and if I could get out to Spain or Italy I would too."
_AT_AndyFromEssex - yes but you have a job here but couldn't get one there? Which is entirely the point isn't it..
_AT_AndyFromEssex - Get out of Essex. You'd like this country more if you didn't live in such a shithole.
"_AT_lids 05 April 2013 10:23am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
I work for myself, I would like to try it there, but either way if I lost my work here and was skint I would rather be skint in the Sun,"
"_AT_OpenSeas 05 April 2013 10:31am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
I wouldn't the cost and the laws/rules is too much now, I liked the UK before I ever got a taste of something better, I liked the UK probably up until 1996 / 98 that's when it all started to change, life was easy then but now its a uphill battle, I really wish I was born 20 years earlier.
I don't like what has happened to my country."
"_AT_AndyFromEssex - I mistook you for a whingeing leftie (the place is infested with them), but you're anything but.
I owe you an apology."
"“ those who do come are not planning to exploit the benefits system and public services. The researchers say it is not possible to put an accurate or reliable figure on how many people will come to Britain”
Few British workers plan to be unemployed!
It is clear from the above statement they simply don’t know how many people will come, the rest is just spin.
Having worked in a blue chip company where the workforce is predominately European workers, I asked many of them why they had chosen to come to Britain to work rather than alternatives; around 70% of the 30 people I asked gave the same reason. That in their country English was a second language and although their English wasn’t brilliant it did tip the scales in considering other destinations. They also told me that in their country (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Lithuania etc.) that they were surprised that in this country people didn’t mind them taking their jobs (that was their perception), whereas in their country it would be given to their own nationality before someone from another country. The overriding opinion of the Europeans was that the British workers were lazy and stupid (why else would they be giving this work away to people from another country? Not my words, theirs) A Czech guy told me his girlfriend was a carer in this country and she was told that she would only be offered the job if a British worker could not be found to fill the position; he said that he thought that was right as that would be the same in his country. The blue chip company mentioned had a preference for European labour and advertise posts in a little Polish food shop. With successive governments labelling the British unemployed as scroungers and lazy, they are contributing to their continued unemployment by sending out the message that European workers have a “better work ethic” In so doing they turn against their own countryman at the very time we all need to pull together."
_AT_endeavourto - you make a cogent argument for welfare benefit reform.
_AT_endeavourto - "English was a second language" ... Yes and also 1.5 billion other people around the world... Maybe everyone should come to England...
"They will head straight to the UK. Mark my words.
The only option is to close our borders and declare ""Britain is FULL""."
_AT_Valois - Full to bursting..
"_AT_Valois 05 April 2013 10:18am. Get cifFix for Chrome.
Another option is why cant the Gov't pay our housing benefit to be abroad then we could leave and it would not be so full."
"_AT_Valois - do you want to close borders for all immigrants, or only for Romanians? I've got a suggestion, you can do something else too. there is a precedent in history: kill all the Romanians that dear to enter England.
Auschwitz - them - all. And history will praise you."
How can anyone take this study seriously? Migration Watch, as an organisation has a much better track record. No doubt we are about to suffer another wave of benefit scroungers to our shores.
"Lets face the reality just once in our life the ones that waited this long to go to the UK aren't the ones that go there to steal, beg, rape,or live on social benefits this are the people that obey the law and go there to work hard and earn some money.
I'm a Romanian and I don't see any point in going to the UK but this is only my opinion.
If i had a chance to go abroad to work would be as far away from the EU as possible."
_AT_John Doe - "far away from the EU as possible." Just like all the writers and editors at "the guardian".. They just cant wait to get transferred to the Offices in the USA..
_AT_MGWILLEY - Never the US by far away i meant Canada, New Zealand, Australia or Japan but that's less likely because of the language.
"Romanian and Bulgarian migrants 'unlikely to head for UK' " Best make a note of this statement for use next year.
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"Anybody who has survived Romania and Bulgaria - and the per capita income in those two countries has increased fourfold since 1990- can easily survive in any other EU country without resorting to benefits.
The big culture shock for them might be the lack of low level corruption in our civil service, but they will be be fully at ease with the high level corruption of our ruling elite - just like home!
Of course the ruthless intolerance of minorities is also a time honored tradition in both of those countries, so it sounds like they will feel right at home with most of the contributors."
"History teaches that any NIESR report on likely Romanian and Bulgarian immigration should be regarded with the gravest suspicion.
Another report published in 2001 is considered the key document in Labour’s open door immigration policy.

“The report, entitled Research, Development And Statistics Occasional Paper No67 - Migration: An Economic And Social Analysis, was published in January 2001 by the Home Office, then run by Mr Straw.
“Most of its key statistics came from a PIU team led by Mr Portes. The report paints a rosy picture of mass immigration, stating:
'There is little evidence that native workers are harmed by migration. The broader fiscal impact is likely to be positive because a greater proportion of migrants are of working age and migrants have higher average wages than natives.'

“It goes on: 'Most British regard immigration as having a positive effect on British culture.'
Mr Portes remains an enthusiastic advocate of the benefits of immigration.”
(Mail on Sunday, 25 October 2009)

Jonathan Portes is now director of the NIESR."
_AT_guyofgisborne - Classic! Now we're in the EU though doesn't matter who we vote for (excepting UKIP) because we've given so much power away and £53 million per day (Farage's quoted figures). Even the most ardent European Federalist must admit it ain't looking good. As for the cash if Nigel's got his figures right that's £19 yards going into a centralised European body, we probs get some back in an ad hoc centrally planned fashion,. So lets call it £10 billion, that's a lot of social housing, nurses, teachers or tax cuts depending on your economic bent. Just an observation.
"With all the vile stereotyping that has come from this government, I truly hope that Bulgarians, Romanians and every nation that our politicians rubbish, now boycotts British goods and tourism.
Ashamed to be British and therefore associated with this vile excuse for a government."
_AT_ussportsfan - so you believe Labour got it right on immigration?
So you believe that people should be treated differently depending on their race? What I'm against is the vile use of stereotyping to justify government policy. What I'm against is policy based on perception and not on facts. In Cameron's recent speech on immigration, he refused to provide statistics when asked for them, so I'll provide some for you. Less than 5 immigrants get social housing. Around 10 laim benefits. All of the facts I quote above were stated by all the quality press but not quoted when asked by Cameron. Still, his policies are made on ideology not fact.
"_AT_ussportsfan - Sorry but i don't see any romanian go to the UK for vacation when you can go to spain, france, italy, greece, croatia.
Its not a boycott its the simple fact that we like sunshine, beaches, and things like that."
It's only when our government starts being hit financially by boycotts from the countries that they slander will things start to change. We don't all approve of our government. In fact I'm ashamed of our government.
_AT_ussportsfan - So the fact that we already have two and a half million unemployed doesn't concern you, don't let that fact cloud your ideological judgement. Most people dont give a fiddlers where anybody comes from ,but we have a jobs, housing and social crisis in this country. Anyone that is concerned about this and raises the issue is a racist. Get your head out of the sand, visit many areas of London and see the true situation of poverty and despair that already exists here.
Don't believe I have called anybody a racist, please enlighten me if that is what I have done. The crisis in this country isn't caused by immigration, it's caused by multiple governments ignoring some basic facts. 1) The shortage of social housing was caused by Thatcher selling huge numbers of local authority accommodation and not allowing any of the money from the sale of that housing to be used to build new property for rent. 2) The propping up of the banks with a massive injection of our taxes that dwarfs the amount spent on welfare benefits and continues to cost the country. 3) As already stated, the FACTS don't match perception...but why let facts come before ideology.
_AT_ussportsfan - How does more immigration, to a country with 2.5 million unemployed, address or remedy your points 1 and 2? Even assuming you are correct in your analysis(i don't), it goes to show you are making politically driven ideological arguments that do not solve the real world problems that we face. More immigration to a country with high unemployment will result in a greater welfare bill. I 'm all for immigration, Australian style....prove you have 1) a skill thats in short supply, 2) A job to go to with employer sponsor, and 3) no access to benefits for 5 years, and pay for any NHS access. Child benefit if it must be payed only to children born in UK
"So prove that I'm wrong. Argue on facts not your personal perception. Fact...social housing does not go to immigrants. As already stated, less than 5 percent is allocated to immigrants. Fact...Around 10 percent of immigrants claim benefits, not the huge numbers that are claimed.
I'm against people who stay in this country illegally but I'm really against policies made on ideology and not reality.
As for those who are legally here, I welcome them with open arms. My life has been enriched by the people I have met from other countries and as for political points, I last voted Labour when Blair was first elected, in the last election I voted Lib Dem and I will almost certainly not be voting in the next elections because the rhetoric of our elected politicians absolutely disgusts me.
I don't understand why anyone could possibly wish to live in Britain with the animosity shown by politicians. I'm not at all certain that I wish to live here anymore, what I see and hear makes me feel physically sick. I am not proud to be British. BTW : Where did I call anyone racist?"
_AT_ussportsfan - Well, public opinion in Bulgaria is already turning against the UK. I mean, I expect this kind of hateful language in internet forums, but when it comes from the mouths of all major politicians (from all parties, including Labour), it is hard not to take offence. Especially, since most people who intend to migrate go somewhere else. Shame on you Britain!
Agree with you, wholeheartedly. Our politicians are disgusting and that applies to all the major political parties.
"I live and work in the South East; the above makes it hard to be positive on immigration. So even if it is a small number, it has a disproportionate affect on the area I live in.
I'm already stuck at home with my parents. If the above is true I fail to see how I can move out anytime soon. Which doesn't feel very fair."
A few thousand YOUNG Bulgarians and Romanians WORKING in the UK and over one million retired UK citizens enjoying FREE hip replacements and knee operations in Spain.
"What total and utter rot.
I was in Madrid yesterday.
According to a local the only thing keeping Spanish people from total devastation was the support of their family networks. Family life in Spain is rock solid and without people helping each society would be in ruins. And he said the biggest thing happening now was that Spanish speakers from South America were now going home in droves because the government wouldn't support them and they had no local family to help.
So the chances of a) these new countries heading for Spain and getting a warm welcome is about 0 - and when they get there are no jobs and no state support.
The most illuminating thing - most Spanish people believe the Spanish state is far to big - too many government regions, departments and civil servants, but politicians refused to do anything about it because they didn't want to upset the 3 million people in government jobs - everybody in Spain knows it is an issue but they don't think any government will do anything about it - Ed Balls should move over to Spain - he would be PM within a week."
The timing of the release of this report probably has more to do with upcoming council elections than anything associated with reality.
All the Romanians I know are well educated, hard working, caring and pillars of their communities. We would be lucky if they chose to come here. Two of my Romanian friends did. One teaches in a school and leads projects to improve teaching and the other is a social worker who also runs a not for profit nursery as in inner city London. Hundreds of British people have been lucky enough to benefit from their hard work and dedication. They are both grossly offended by the slurs cast upon Romanians by the PM and his bigoted chums.
"_AT_lushd1959 - All the Romanians I knew up until the point I visited the country were too.
That's because I know them through work and they are all professionals earning 6-figure salaries.
And this is the problem with the migration debate. Those in power experience the elite and educated of any country, either through work or university. They therefore they get an unrealistically positive view of migration.
Wealthy, rich and educated people tend to mix with the same, no great news here."
"_AT_lushd1959 - Agreed problem is people use the stereotype Gypsy as the 'Romanian'
Gypsies are disliked like the chav population here, unfortunately they have branded the whole nation
It is all about the stereotypes unfortunately and the ill informed will continue to bang their racist drums about how these people are a drain on our society.
I have yet to get to know a Romanian who isn't studying or working hard, their work ethic is leagues ahead of the British one that is for sure. give or take a few bad apples which every country has to deal with."
"_AT_Christian Mander -

Now who's banging the 'racist drum'?"
"The following comes from a Rotherham Council report on EU migration.

Rotherham’s approach to EU migration
Background
Rotherham has seen a rapid growth in Slovakian and Czech Roma communities following EU enlargement in 2004, growing from nil in 2003/4 to 3,700 in 2011/12. Roma are now the fastest growing minority ethnic group in Rotherham and the second-largest black and minority ethnic community in the borough. The Roma community has settled in three small central areas of Rotherham that are among the most disadvantaged areas in the borough, with one area (Ferham) being among the three per cent most deprived areas in England. In common with Roma people from many parts of Europe, Roma new migrants to Rotherham come from a background of extreme poverty, discrimination, exclusion and denial of rights. They are coming here to escape this background and to build a better life for their families. However, they bring with them needs and experiences that partner agencies must take account of when looking to integrate this new community.
Summary
Rapid demographic change has brought with it many challenges, both for local residents and for local services. For example, the population in the Eastwood Village area has increased by 20 per cent in five years due to inward migration. Given that no new houses have been built in the area, this is a large increase in population density over a short time. The age structure of the area is young, with 30 per cent of the population being under 16. Entrenched deprivation is also a concern, both for Roma families and the wider community.
The challenges for us
The main challenges facing Rotherham in relation to the growing Roma community are:
• Disproportionate and rising demands on safeguarding and child protection services.
• Low levels of education/skills and language barriers.
• Poor health, disability and lack of engagement in ill-health prevention.
• Housing overcrowding and some of the stock in very poor condition.
• Problems of non compliance with recycling, excess waste and fly tipping in gardens, streets and parks are causing tension in the local community.
• Anti-social behaviour and youth nuisance.
• Schools are facing pressures of increasing demand for places; attending and attainment presents a continued challenge.
• Roma people coming to Rotherham are suspicious of authorities and fear harassment and discrimination by the non-Roma community."
So, uh, how is it any more valuable than Cameron's opinion? The whole point of this kind of report is to inform policy, and yet it's nothing more than a bunch of pro-immigrationist opinion if it can't even provide an estimate.
"'Quick everyone there's another immigration debate on the Guardian website! Let's tell those naive, out of touch lefties what's what.'
Bore off UKIP, with your lies and paranoia. We live in an inter-connected world, people move around - get it? The option of closing borders and preventing immigration no longer exists - despite what May and the Tories want you to believe."
"_AT_caballito - you have clearly never traveled outside of the EU then.
Looking forward to visiting the US on Sunday after I have filled out my ESTA form, customs card, presented myself in immigration, had my finger prints taken, been asked where I am staying, how long I am staying for, who I work form had my passport stamped on the way in and way out...oddly enough this happens in pretty much every country I visit around the world apart from, of yes the EU -
But go ahead, pop to the US, China, Singapore, Australia, Brazil and turn up without a job, any means of support, and where to live and see enjoy your time in the arrivals lounge before you are spirited away and sent home - I only mention those countries because they are the new global powerhouse economies you don't live in and clearly never will...."
"_AT_Familyg - The vast number of people coming to live in the UK are EU Citizens or the family members/spouses of British Citizens. They have the right to live in the UK. Full Stop. The government cannot prevent their immigration - and neither should they unless you support the idea of keeping families apart.
Thanks also for the lesson on how things are done in 'global powerhouse economies.' I actually live in one - I am a US green card holder. I arrived without a job because my wife was already working here. Oh, and don't expect them to stamp your passport on your way out - they don't do that. They have no way of knowing who is coming and going.
While you're here in the US take some time to consider the immigration status of the waiters serving you food and the cleaners cleaning up after you - more than likely they'll be undocumented. The economy of this global economic powerhouse can't function without them, you see."
"_AT_Familyg -
I cross the border annually from Canada at Niagara/QE bridge and passports are not stamped when you leave the US but it helps if you return the green immigration card that they staple to your visa page on your passport when leaving. When driving Canadian passport holders get waved through at the border while UK passport holders get pulled in for further checks."
_AT_caballito - So you want uncontrolled immigration from anywhere to anywhere? Yes? No?
"_AT_Realityforme - I am simply pointing out that most immigrants to the UK have a right to live in the UK. They are EU Citizens or the spouses of British Citizens. The government - and Theresa May in particular - have tried to give the impression that they will be tough on immigration and significantly reduce the numbers coming to the UK.
What they do not point out is that there are limits to this - that many travelling to the UK have a right to reside there. Preventing immigration to the extent that many on the right desire is no longer possible."
_AT_caballito - another deluded leftie
"_AT_caballito - Correct - as long as we are in the EU its citizens have the right to come here if they wish and there is nothing Cameron can do about it - which is one reason among many that we need to leave the EU.
But I notice you did not answer my question about immigration in general - do you think countries should have the right to control immigration or do you not?"
_AT_caballito - by undocumented you mean illegal? EU citizens have a no 'right' to live in the UK, they have a legal right because of a construct created in Brussels - you only had a right to enter the US because a law was created allowing you to. There is no right of movement between most countries in the world, and the EU decided to a free for all -
_AT_Familyg - Well, the process you describe would not exactly encourage people to travel outside the EU. In fact, I have vowed to never visit the USA because of the treatment of foreigners upon entry.
_AT_Montie99 - The NHS, free education, universal suffrage, social security, the minimum wage - yep you can thank us deluded lefties for all of that.
"_AT_Realityforme - The question is a pointless one. No country in Europe is able to control immigration. Unlike you, however, I think Britain's inclusion within the EU is largely a good thing. Many other Britons do too - and take advantage of our inclusion by emigrating to other European countries.
If Britain were to leave the EU we would be worse off - without the possibility of influencing decisions made within an economic bloc composed of our closest trading partners."
"_AT_Familyg - I didn't say there was a right to free movement between most countries in the world.
Yes, the EU decided to open their borders - what's your point? You either think its a good thing or you don't. I recognize there are pros and cons with immigration - it isn't a black and white issue.
And no, I mean undocumented. I don't refer to other humans as illegal - particularly when you consider the background of many immigrants to the United States."
"_AT_caballito - To be slight pedant you did say or intimate that - The option of closing borders and preventing immigration no longer exists because you were trying to intimate that people in the UK who want tightly controlled immigration are right wing lunatics who take a position now opposed by most of the world. While actually they take they view of most governments around the world who believe that controlled immigration is a good thing for their economies.
My point was that those countries who do operate controlled immigration are those who control their economies more effectively (well apart from the US I give you that).
Just because the EU have decided on a policy doesn't make it right.
Given the last 10 years when Germany prospered, the countries the source of mass immigration prospered, and those receiving them have become irrelevant in the European and world economies then I think the argument against this EU policy is stronger than for.
And just to ensure I argue from a point somewhere in the middle, the immigration of the last 50 years from India and Caribbean have been massively economically and culturally beneficial to this country.
Unfortunately instead of an even spread of incoming people across the country we have created some places where the collection of one nations people has given room for criminals from this country and their home countries to prosper. And unfortunately for most Afro Caribbean's they congregated in London during a time when the loony left ran social policy consigning many of them now to a poorer education, housing and other things they deserve better than.
But, the European Union policy of open borders has failed, will continue to fail, and has probably caused more social unrest in poorer areas of the UK then any other policy of the last 20 years.
And before you argue that last point. I live in a largish southern english town - which is primarily well off - minimal eastern european immigration and NO talk of issues in the press.
My family live in a large north wales town - with greater poverty and primarily working in factories - major social unrest because of perceived immigration issues, papers have a story every week, and my bothers factory haven't had a pay rise for 4 years because 'there are plenty of people willing to work cheaper than you do.'
So the middle classes haven't been impacted at all by free movement of people in Europe (well apart from making it easier to go on holiday) whereas the poorer or those working in lower paid manual or even semi-skilled jobs have been virtually wiped out in many parts of the UK.
Anyway, I know we won't see eye to eye on this, and I understand your point on calling people illegal, but unfortunately life has rules, and when you break the rules however bad you think they are you become illegal - or at least you have done something illegal."
_AT_caballito - The question is very important and you have not answered it. Of course no country in the EU can individually control immigration from other EU states - that is exactly the point. Only outside the EU can that happen.
Wait and see - at least 2M will arrive in UK.
"""""The main destination countries for Romanian and Bulgarian (EU2) migrants are Spain and Italy, and to a lesser extent Germany. ""
""The research says that as most of those who come will generally be younger, healthy and working""
....If these youngsters go to Spain they have got virtually no chance of getting a job; youth unemployment is running at over 50% there - it's 22% here in Britain, which while difficult, makes it twice as likely that a young person from Romania or Bulgaria will find a job in Britain than they would in Spain.
Britain is also not part of the the Eurozone, which is in a poorer economic state than Britain, and forecast to get worse. Unemployment in the Eurozone is rising rapidly, which also makes Italy a poor choice as well as Spain.
Britain is a likely destination, not an unlikely one."
"_AT_Getusout - first, you changed the figures of un-employment in Spain: at the top of this page it was 45, here is 50%. Did it grow so fast?
Since 1990, after the Romanian Revolution, Romanians left for other countries. Whoever was to go, it mostly did in in 22 years.
Britain is not very attractive for Romanians for a lot of reasons: no sun, too much rain, the hatred and discrimination done by British specific immigrants, a culture that doesn't really accept diversity, a huge over-developed bureaucratic system, which can't be understood and handled by it's own creators, the lack of sense of humour, the grumpy attitude (stiff upper lip), the drowning in prejudice and intolerance, the love for pre-formed phrases (like healthy living, 5 a day, quality time, good value for money, those bloody foreigners coming in our country to treat our people, good honest food) and I could continue for ages. That is why England is not attractive for Romanians, and you have to have deep roots here in order to be able to survive."
_AT_easterneuropean - It's not clear whether or not you are living in Britain; but if you are, you don't seem to be enjoying it much. Nobody is stopping you from leaving.
"_AT_Realityforme - oh, just a few things like citizenship and family. Do I need to like it? To be very honest with you I loved it when I came, but is started to deteriorate. Even the climate, don't you think so? How many sunny days did you see last summer?
Life is not about 'enjoying much', life is about being with the people you love, no matter what or where. And yes, this is why I came in the first place, apart from admiring England. For heaven's sake, what happened here?"
"_AT_easterneuropean - Even the British are sick of this winter. We don't mind grey skies if we have occasional sunshine; but it's getting a lot of people down, so I can understand how you feel.
It seems to me that life is here to be enjoyed if possible. You sound as though you have a good relationship; you're obviously alive, no doubt there are difficulties; but everyone has those to cope with. One day you'll be dead, so you might as well enjoy what you can while you can."
"_AT_Realityforme - sure, one day we'll be all dead no doubt about that. I came here ages ago, I grew old in this country, I have a job, and I never had a day off, until last week when I broke a leg and I took my annual leave (not sick leave) until I can work a transport way out. In these years I made contributions in the tax system probably more than some British born did in their whole working life, I never had a problem with the police in my life, I worship to the Church of England, I practice charity here and in Romania. I have wonderful British and non-British friends, which I love dearly, but lately I started to feel physically threatened in my own house, since all this madness started. My windows were broken twice with stones in the last month, I found dog droppings in front of my door almost every day, my rubbish and collectables turned upside down, a new scratch on my car every day. My very good friends started to call me 'you and your people' - since this Romanian/Bulgarian debate started, all of a sudden I'm not good anymore, I'm dirty race, I'm criminal, thief, ""me and my kind"". When push will come to the shove, my next door neighbour will probably put my house on fire, just to get rid of 'another Romanian'. I do really have a very good reason to be scared, and I do have the right to my opinion.
One can hardly enjoy life in these conditions. After more than 10 years since I bought the house and moved on this street to start to look on the market to buy another house, to move in a place where nobody knows what I am, to change the Church, to park my car on another street, to hide my identity, even to change my job- this is the point I reached. Does this remind you of anything? How could I continue to see the sunny days?"
"_AT_easterneuropean - I was very sorry to learn of your experiences. It is difficult to discuss it all openly on this forum as you understandably would not want to identify yourself or those involved in your persecution. I must therefore limit myself to general points. Bear in mind that this particular thread will probably be closed soon, as usual, so that it will be hard to continue.
Anyway, what I do feel is that every society can absorb a certain percentage of immigrants with almost no stress or tension. The percentage limit I believe depends on how different the immigrants are from their hosts. Whereas individual immigrants may well get on perfectly with their neighbours and be seen as an asset to their immediate community, the “us and them” reaction that you are apparently now experiencing is more likely to happen if that “acceptable” immigrant comes to be seen as part of a greater immigration that might threaten the host nation’s values and culture. It is the perception that counts regardless of how factually it is based.
My parents told me of a German neighbour at the beginning of the First World War, in London’s east end. He was a shopkeeper and lived above the premises. He got on with everyone. At the outbreak of war, his shop windows were smashed, the mob invaded his living quarters and threw the family’s piano out on to the street. Absolutely inexcusable behaviour; but you can see why it was likely to happen at that point. He represented the enemy.
From what you write, you have been an asset to this country. That won’t stop you falling victim to a wave of resentment among the host population that has been caused in great measure by an unparalleled increase in immigration to this country in just ten years (2 million+) that has put great stress on housing, hospitals, schools and social cohesion.
Most British feel helpless in the face of the government’s lack of control over the country’s borders and, so long, as we are in the EU, that will not change. It will inevitably lead to greater resentment and intolerance. We in Britain have never faced such fast and overwhelming immigration in our history and the strains are showing.
Diversity between nations is usually beneficial because it gives a chance to move to a different society if one’s own is unsatisfactory; diversity within nations is dangerous above a certain level because it tends to dismantle the structure that holds society together.
I will stop here, not because there is nothing else to say; but because time is probably running out on the forum. I do hope your predicament is resolved and wish you good luck; but I personally remain pessimistic about the effects on all societies in Europe of immigration that is seen as too much and too fast."
Of course they won't be! Living in Britain is like that old homily "you don't have to be mad to live here, but it helps!"
Didn't Labour say the same thing about the Poles coming to this country, and look how that turned out.
_AT_Bertie69 - It's been great thanks. Without their contribution it would probably be impossible to pay the huge subsidies demanded by the idle old bigot section of the population.
"Let’s sleigh the myth of racialism.
In every developed country immigration policy would likely be, if you have a skill that we are short of you are welcome into our country, if not you cannot come here to work, since you will only be putting our own countrymen out of work. The European free trade agreement cannot continue to exist in its present form since it sacrifices the resources of the wealthier states to the poorer ones. This is a great agreement for the poor states that have been allowed in, but the poorer states will bankrupt the resources of the richer states.
The resources that have been paid for (or they would not exist) by the British people, should not be drained by so called member states that have paid nothing into the system. If you have a skill we need then welcome, if you have similar resources to offer then you should be a member. It’s not about colour or race, it’s about basic economics. We should help the poorer states, but in a moor managed way that we can afford."
"I am Bulgarian and live in Sofia. I was in UK few times as busseness traveller and I would never relocate there because:
1. Weather is terrible and beer as 10 times more expencive than in my place
2. Locals are arrogant and hostile against foreigners
3. Everybody drives on the wrong side.
4. The language is terrible for me and I doubt if anyone can properly write in Enlish without the autocorrect function in Word.
So don't worry, you'll won't be flooded with Bulgarians atleast, and I'm pretty sure that most of the our Romanian neighbours would preffer Spain or Italy as well."
"_AT_OceanPearl - You're also reasonably wealthy and educated enough to presumably own and use a computer, are all your countrymen that affluent? I think not.
We were told the same thing before all the Poles came too, now look at our youth unemployment."
_AT_OceanPearl - Just pass on points 1,2 and 3 to your fellow countrymen - thank you.
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_AT_OceanPearl - I would have to disagree: UK locals arent that hostile to foreigners, this is a very mulitcultural society , and ethnic minorities are protected by law , more than can be said for gypsies in romainia and bulgairiafor example ....many people are very concerned about unskilled Romanians and Bulgarians coming here. I think that is a justifiable concern . Bulgaira has a lot of social problems , corruption being one of the biggest . You should , as an educated Bulgarina , put your energies into confronting these issues first before moaing about other countries, or are you happy wiht the way your country is runn , if so i beleive that would suggest that you yourself have your fingers in the till , and arent keen to rock the boat. .
"_AT_OceanPearl -
I disagree with some of your points as I've repeatedly pointed out to the Germans, Dutch and Swiss when living in their country:
3) It's you lot who drive on the wrong side. We drive on the right side
4) The language was terrible for me too and anyway why the heck would I want to learn Dutch or German/Swiss German? Learn to speak and write in English is the healthy attitude that I took and anyway, that was the business language"
_AT_OceanPearl - ha ha, utter drivel
"_AT_OceanPearl - ""So don't worry, you'll won't be flooded with Bulgarians atleast, and I'm pretty sure that most of the our Romanian neighbours would preffer Spain or Italy as well.""
Really sad to hear that from Spain... Spaniards are sick of Romanians and their crime gangs. Isn't 1 million Romanians in Spain enough for you? Let us see what happens of more Romanians and Bulgarians decide to move to Spain under current economic conditions in Spain... There are hardly many extreme right wing parties in Spain but I wonder how long that will last... and belive me, once the Spanish people explote there is nothing you can do to stop them."
_AT_Anxian - You don't have to be affluent to own and use a computer in Bulgaria. Not these days - you are probably thinking of Africa. And even there, you would be surprised by the number of people who do. I am writing this from Varna, Bulgaria - a big city on the Black Sea - and I am telling you: no one here wants to move to the UK.
_AT_Lakshmanab - Um... no. You drive on the left side, we drive on the right side.
"_AT_zenithmaster -
Um... no. You drive on the left side, we drive on the right side.
I remember having this argument with my good friend Martijn in flat land yonks ago where what I meant by ""right side"" was not what he meant. Also, when I complained to him about the Dutch repeatedly breaking into my car as it had British number plates he blamed it on the foreigners. Typical Dutch is what I say."
"_AT_UnsavouryExcretions - oh, yes they are! Like England has no corruption at all! Ethnic minorities might be protected by law, but the law is on the paper, and unless you have a real community behind you, you have no rights. there are not as many eastern Europeans here in order to call them a minority, therefore, you do whatever you want with them. nobody to protect them.
I wonder if your concern is only related to Romanians and Bulgarians, or to other immigrants too.
By the way: where did you learn English?"
It's goldfish bowl time, remember exactly the same sort of articles before Labour invited in the Poles & co. There's 26% unemployment in Spain and Italy's economy is falling apart under the Euro. The UK is going to look mighty inviting especially London. Can't blame them, if we're stupid enough to allow unchecked immigration it's our fault. The wage disparity is crazy though much more so than with the Polish.
"How many Romanians and Bulgarians are coming from 2014?
Nobody knows.
We have had net immigration of over 2 million in 10 years.
What has this meant if you are British?
If you are young – fewer jobs available.
If you are sick – hospitals under greater pressure.
If you are old – the care system stretched further.
If you are in low-paid work – your wages more likely to go down than up.
If you are on benefits – the same money divided between more claimants.
If you are looking for housing – it’s more difficult to find and more expensive if you find it.
If you want Britain to continue along this path, just keep voting for one of the three main parties.
If you want to regain control over this country’s borders, infrastructure, laws and government – vote to leave the EU.
Once we are out, then whether you are left or right or centre, you will at last be able to influence the way your society develops."
"_AT_Realityforme -
The economy is not a zero sum game. Population growth is generally seen as a positive for the economy. More people produce more and consume more, meaning the economy grows and that there is more money to pay for public services. And immigration is a much quicker and cheaper way of getting that growth, as you don't need to pay for 18 years' education, housing and healthcare before the new person can enter the labour force.
If you don't believe me, how about a few numbers. You say there's been net immigration of 2 million in the last decade. Well, 10 years ago, in 2003, the unemployment rate was about 5%. The following year saw the first wave of EU eastward expansion. Did unemployment jump as all those Poles, Czechs and Slovaks came to the UK? No. It stayed around 5%. It only started heading up in 2008 - which is when the recession hit.
In other words, the reason UK unemployment is now high is nothing to do with immigration. As a US president once said, it's the economy, stupid. Similarly with the NHS, the care system, benefits etc. They are not overstretched because of immigrants. They are overstretched because the economy tanked.
In fact immigrants have another advantage. Not only did it cost the UK nothing to educate them, but they tend to go home when work dries up. In other words, they contribute to the economy when times are good, and don't cost us anything when times are bad.
What's not to like?"
_AT_panpies - If I understand you correctly, you maintain that immigration is invariably positive for a society. So would you like to see unrestricted immigration to the U.K. from all over the world and if not, why not?
"_AT_Realityforme - you need a tough reality check. But, on the other hand, good thinking. Close the borders, take your island and move it in the middle of Indian Ocean, to be at a convenient distance from these annoying Europeans, and Americans. That will serve them right for trying to come in your country.
If you think that outside of EU you will have more control and influence 'your own personal society', you are really deluded."
"_AT_easterneuropean - There are only two types of immigration - controlled or uncontrolled. So long as we are members of the EU, immigration from other EU states is uncontrolled. I did not advocate closing our borders, I do believe that any society if it is to maintain its stability, needs to control who it lets in as immigrants.
There are fundamental questions to ask - is this immigrant likely to a) prove an asset to our country? b) have no significant effect? c) prove a liability?
For example - do we want more engineers, doctors, scientists? Yes.
Do we want more sellers of ""The Big Issue"" ? - probably not."
"_AT_Realityforme - Thanks a lot for accepting me.
Just a question for you: how many eastern Europeans are in this country, and what percent are living on benefits, and how many non-EU immigrants, and what percent are living on benefits. You will be amazed if you will see the numbers. After that we can talk about immigration from the EU and the threat for this country posed by a few hundred/thousands Romanians."
_AT_easterneuropean - If the numbers are amazing, please share them with us and give your sources. I'm always ready to admit I am wrong if proof is provided.
"People need to google some pictures of the conditions in these countries, we will be getting the poorest and most criminal come here, no question about it.
There are apparently 76,000 Romanians here already, 26,000 have been arrested in the Borough of London alone, but I suppose that doesn't prove anything right?"
"_AT_Anxian - yes, it does prove you 'did your homework'. So half of the Romanians living in England were arrested in London ? what does that prove? Racism with capital letters. Targeting on a nation. Are you proud of that? Not that is true. First, there are no 26000 Romanians living in London, maybe they were brought there in order to be arrested. What you wrote makes everyone think the British police is making up excuses to arrest Romanians. That doesn't prove Romanians are criminals, it proves they are hunted for being Romanians.
'the poorest and most criminals will come here from Romania'. I think your opinion is very dangerous, Hitler started just the same.
There are Romanians here from the 19th Century, and you count them in, too. What about other immigrants, outside Europe that came in the last 150 years?"
Unlikely? Sure ;)
The Romanians and Bulgarians will go where ever they have opportunities to get work. The language connection is misleading.
"_AT_whatorly -
And so do I as well as loads of other Brits. I returned from Zurich for good once again last summer and have worked in Germany and the Netherlands too in the distant past. I like working abroad every now and then so that I don't get too set in my ways and anyway change is always good in an ever changing world."
"_AT_Lakshmanab - This is why I get so angry about this subject. I've worked on the continent - in the 'auf wiedersehn Pet' days when lots of British people were escaping a basket case economy just as the eastern Europeans have done. The continued chance to work in another EU country is great for me and great for my children. At the same time it has made a huge contribution to our economy and culture
Yet there are some people who, because of their prejudices, want to take away those opportunities. It's utterly hateful."
"_AT_whatithink -
Another think I would like to point out is during the 'auf wiedersehn Pet' days some of the Brits I was working with were routing their earnings via the Cayman islands. This was also popular with those working in Belgium. Everyone had NT status in the UK so HMRC didn't care. My tax affairs when working in Germany and the Netherlands were routed via Switzerland (Sigma) which means I completely legally avoided German & Dutch tax but did not evade tax altogether like some of the other Brits."
"_AT_Lakshmanab -
Another think I
Typos galore! The Caymans island route was blocked years ago by the tax authorities in the continent and anyway, now you can't get NT status so easily from HMRC."
"_AT_Lakshmanab -

Sure .. nothing I said was meant to be against the migrant workers ... I just think we screw up the policy end of this time and time again by not making any plans. Why not just stop being scared of the issue, welcome opportunities for a wider world of work and embrace the change. I am totally with that ... I just don't buy the idea that it is language similarities of differences which inform decisions about where to work. I know a few people who work in Holland and France in agriculture and building ... they don't speak Dutch or French ...."
"_AT_whatorly -
We are lucky in that English is the business language especially in the international corporate sector which is where I usually work. In the nineties I worked with a group of Bulgarian's in South Germany and whenever we Brits wanted entertainment we would try taking them into Switzerland in a British registered car, fill up with cheap Swiss petrol and then fun with the German border guards on the way back.
A few things about Bulgarian that I observed wat back in those days were:
1) They didn't believe that the Americans had gone to the moon
2) Or that that they had won in Vietnam
3) They had figured out a way of transferring the Swiss road tax sticker from one car to another without damaging it"
"_AT_Lakshmanab - yes, I know a couple of Bulgarians they are resourceful people I think. When I visited Sofia they had amazing symphony orchestras which played out doors for free, top notch health care and everyone I met seemed to have 16 degrees and speak English like a classic text book. Also beer was less than half a Lev! What a beautiful amazing country.
PS. the american's didn't win in Vietnam did they?"
"_AT_whatorly -
That was my mistake. The Americans did not win in Vietnam. Must have been something else with the Bulgarians.
The Bulgarians back then were a bit bigoted but they were all right. They were being ripped off by their agent, which meant, when we went to the pub a group of them would share just one beer. Us Brits used to take turns buying them rounds. Another thing I remember the agent doing is, when they threatened to go on strike they were all taken to a brothel!
A few of them eventually moved on to the States and I'm sure they are doing well over there."
_AT_Lakshmanab - LOL industrial relations at its finest.
_AT_whatorly - just make up your mind, what scares you: that they come here to work, or they come here to live on benefits? Or simply that they might come and destroy your gene pool?
_AT_easterneuropean - I haven't said any of those things ... try reading other peoples comments before replying.
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We all know what labour said when Poland and other countries joined the EU without movement restrictions and this new study is now saying almost the same; we all know what happened? What should we trust, our eyes or the or a study that suggests people would find it easier to find work in Spain or Italy at the moment?
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"This report cannot be reliable. I spent six years in Bulgaria as a student and know that most Bulgarians would prefer to come to UK rather than Italy and Spain because they want to learn English or improve it but particularly for economic reasons.
Again, because of the current higher unemployment rates and the Euro zone crisis that has considerably affected Italy and Spain, it would be very misleading to suggest that Bulgarians and Romans would prefer to go to Italy and Spain to Britain. The same predictions were made when Poland joined.
Time will tell."
It's a broken record . . . "we expect immigration from country X to be insignificant" . . . five years later . . .
"_AT_kvlx387 -

would be OK if it were followed by

but we're still waiting"
"First of i'd like to clearly state that i am Bulgarian, living in Sofia, Bg. I read a lot of comments and some are quite reasonable and some are plane stupid.
The first thing that should be said is that Bulgarians and Romanians have been LEGALY enering Britain since 2007. They did not have work permits but if they chose to come, they did...and they worked in the grey economy. Now they will be able to legalize themselves.
This said, i would expect a lot of Bulgarians to start working legaly, which will allow them to leave the grey economy and require higher payment.
Also keep in mind that in the EU (and Britain is part of it) there is freedem of movement, trade etc. Up to now British companies took advantage of its access to the Bulgarian market, while preventing the freedom of labour. Now equality is achieved.
Also i would not be scared of people wanting to work. I would fear people NOT wanting to work."
"_AT_achkata - It's RATE that is important and QUALITY CONTROL.
I already know Bulgarians working in the UK who are fine, same as Lithuanians, Polish etc They are fine people. But the ABOVE is the correct approach and why the government are failing their duty to their electorate to regulate the borders of the country they are entrusted to run.
UK =/= as other EU countries. If UK Citizens have paid taxes and have a social contract for a welfare state and suddenly EU countries are added: Good-bye welfare state in this new political contract. It's already being conducted by the government of the UK.
The fact is if population of uk increases up to 70m = Birmingham, Manchester, Oxford and Reading all need building to accomodate this increase in population. That should be a political voting decision if the rate is next 5yrs-10yrs increase."
"_AT_Affirmative - I agree that this is a problem for the UK.
Yet i don't think there is something that can be done about the migrant workers...and i don't think they are an actual threat.
The drain to the sistem can come only from NON WORKING migrants.
You mention ""building accomodation"", why should that be a government problem. isn't that part of the supply/demand equation i.e part of the free economy?"
Why in 2013 would poor Romanians come to Spain? The ones who are here at the moment are doing things like recycling metal, either legally or illegally, to live. Better off and/or qualified guys, well, since there's no jobs for anyone here, why would they come either?
"I'm romanian and after reading this i went to a recruitment site and i found around 10-15 ads from british companies that hire romanians to work in the UK. Jobs vary from doctors to drivers.
Now you have a big problem because this means that british employers prefer people from eastern europe and not from the uk, meaning that while you are worried for your jobs (witch i can understand) you are screwed by your own people (maximizing profits its the no.1 rule in economy).
Don't blame us for coming over there and taking the jobs but blame the employers for not hiring you in the first place."
_AT_John Doe - Excellent post. This is exactly what people fail to address.
_AT_John Doe - bolleaux, immigrants can afford to live here by cramming into poor quality housing and splitting bills. A working class family simply can't afford to live of these wages. Your presence here just makes thing worse for the working class, you are importing low wages.
_AT_lids - Excellent point.
_AT_lids - What would you describe as being poor quality housing? A nice shared house with double bedrooms of about 16 square meters, for couples without children? What's wrong to live in a shared accommodation till you save some money to start a family, by that I mean have a child?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=589458834400651&set=a.279705485375989.77296.243848052295066&type=1&theater
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And they also said only about 27 Poles would move to Britain.
What upsets me most is that Mr Cameron is suggesting Romanians and Bulgarians to move to Spain rather than moving to the UK... Jeeezzz, I understand that everybody takes care of his/her own arse but you will agree with me that he is so bad-tempered and cruel against Spaniards. We already have 1 million of Romanians and Bulgarians in Spain, Mr Cameron, and belive me, they will not move to the UK because living on crime is easier in Spain.
_AT_Poorscientist - What are you talking about? It's p-easy for org crime in the UK. Just go down any street at 3am in London and look at people fiddling with atms... etc
_AT_Affirmative - I have lived in both countries and believe me sadly I have to say that the Spanish police take thieves to the court and they go out through the backyard to keep on "working on their activities"... two hours later. The Spanish police themselves say that it is a waste of time... The Spaniards sometimes do not even bother about going to the police station for petty crime that is extremely common since these people came during the last ten years.
"This report is a HUGELY MISLEADING SWINDLE!!!
1 - None can predict levels of immigration
2 - Spain/Italy are preferred destinations
3 - ""are not planning to exploit the benefits system and public services.""
3 - Current trends suggest minor impact
4- Unlike the wave of Polish, Lithuanian and other east European migration since 2004, Romanians and Bulgarians are much more likely to head for London and south-east England rather than be dispersed across the country.
=
1/ If predictions can't be made WHY was a) the first wave in 2004 so woefully inaccurate = population boom? So how can anyone trust THIS REPORT??
2/ If Spain/Italy increasing unemployment trend in EURO vs x9 pay in the UK AND ENGLISH IS WORLD LANGUAGE AND BENEFITS SYSTEM. BS.
3/ CURRENT TRENDS WILL CHANGE!!! The Worst is to come for the euro given current trends! Next bail out Italy.
4/ BS: There is care work in the counties, labouring work, cheaper rents - it does not matter the ~x9 rate of pay = work anywhere in the UK. How is this assertion they will focus on SE/London known? The fact is if 50,000 come over and 25,000 or 35,000 still go to London you're still going to get 25-15k elsewhere followed by others spreading out from London over time.
=
I've not wasted my time with 100% accurate figures but using some basic expectations and WCS and historic precedent and economic reality = a very different picture is just as likely.
Ok, this report, if it's majorly wrong various measures, they should have their salaries and jobs on the line - then we'll see how cautious they are with these bs statements."
So these young single people would rather go to Spain and Italy where they have 26% youth unemployment and the benefits are nowhere near as generous as that of the UK. Romanians are already moving from Spain to here. How much are these idiots getting paid.
_AT_Cordite - 55-60% youth unemployment
_AT_lids - correct, I believe it is 26% total unemployment.
"The Foreign Office report must have been prepared in dreamland. There are already an estimated 900,000 Rumanians in Spain. They have been doing many menial jobs. But among them have been gangs of criminals who have created huge problems with their prostitution rackets and their extreme violence.
Spain is in deepest recession so many workers have been laid off. When the UK opens the doors, jobless Rumanians will flock there. And so too will the criminals. Language difficulties? If you can use a knife or a gun, you don't need words. Ah that sheltered scepter'd isle, living in a world of its own..."
"_AT_ElBairdo - first, not Rumanians, but Romanians. Second, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid that your gangs and criminals will be pushed away? Are you afraid that Romanian prostitutes will take your prostitutes place? That is a real reason for getting worried.
You believe in a little horror story, Romanians use the knives in their kitchen, and for guns...in the last 15 years in this country all the people that used fire arms on other people were British.
Romanians are not better, nor worse than you, they are just more unlucky."
I love the way they pull these figures out of their arses. It's a complete guess. they were spectacularly wrong about the number of Poles moving here.
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Hmmm, funny. The immigrants I see in this country are working. Working in pubs, restaurants, on building sites. Showing up on time. Working to better themselves and their economic situation; working to learn English. Working. Want to know who isn't working? The people sitting in the park in their best track suits near where I live, with their nasty dogs.... doing nothing. Ever. 100% English, they are. 100%. Take a look in the mirror Britain. What you see is the result of decades of gutting and neglect of your once good education system. The result? A nation of unemployable, unskilled, mouth breathers. THAT's why employers prefer to hire immigrants.
_AT_googoogoojoob - you make a cogent argument for grammar schools and reform of the welfare benefit system. I hope you vote UKIP.
_AT_googoogoojoob - Employers prefer to hire immigrants because they are cheaper... particularly for low skilled jobs and because they can cheat them more easily, particularly if they do not know the language, culture and law of the country. That happens everywhere, from Japan, US, UK and Spain.
_AT_googoogoojoob - Those comments are emotion without the benefit of intellect.
_AT_googoogoojoob - wrong. Employers are hiring immigrants because they are cheaper. How do you accurately identify every pale skinned person sitting in parks, or anywhere else, as "100% English"? What a load of tosh.
"_AT_googoogoojoob - You are right. What we have to do is change the benefit system so people will have to work as hard as the poles if they want a decent standard of living.
BTW there are 500,000 unemployed people from the EU here, 146,000 have never worked.
6% of the prison population are Poles. So they are not all honest and hard working."
"There we are then - nothing to worry about!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Some pigs have just flown over the house. !!!"
can we mark this for bring-up in 12 months please?
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One thing that anyone from eastern europe (or anywhere else) should know about Britain is that employers here are exploiting them by paying them less wages than British workers for doing exactly the same job. It may come as a surprise to many to discover that it is entirely legal to discriminate in such a way as the Equal Pay Act only rules against paying workers less money for equal work on the grounds of biological sex. Yet, somewhat oddly, it's entirely legal to pay, for instance, a Polish immigrant £50 for doing a job that one would pay £100 to a British citizen to do.
"_AT_3genders - Quite frankly you're bloody lucky to have me here.
I get more money than British workers for doing the same job because negotiating contracts is one of my strong points, along with my swarthy good looks & charm."
"A NEW row over border controls erupted last night after a Government report into potential immigration from Romania and Bulgaria said it was “impossible to predict” how many would arrive.
Research by a think-tank, commissioned by the Foreign Office, admitted that higher wages and living standards in the UK “were potentially attractive to prospective economic migrants”.
And it warned public services, particularly schools, could come under pressure.
But the 54-page dossier, understood to have cost £60,000, failed to put a figure on the scale of immigration when 29 million Romanian and Bulgarians are granted full European Union freedom-of-movement rights at the end of this year."
"_AT_Cordite - OK, so you think 29 million of Romanians and Bulgarians will flock here in 2014.
I want to make a point: even presuming the Romanians will come with their children here when they immigrate, the schools will hardly be under pressure, because the traditional Romanian family has 1 or 2 children. sorry to disappoint you, but they are not on the high end of breeders.
They turned you in a nation of children, scared that the monster will come out of the cupboard and eat you during the night. Only they changed monster with Romanian.
Get real"
"I see many furious comments on the site. And I see that many are worried or even already panicked about the terrible consequences of immigration. However, can't you people see that this is just nonsense? Can't you see past the Tory/UKIP scaremongering? Allowing migrant workers will only benefit the economy. Employers will be happy to have a fresh supply of skilled and unskilled workers. This means more profit, more investment, more jobs, more money into the economy. It's a positive feedback mechanism. This would also mean more money in taxes as generally immigrants contribute much more to the welfare fund than they consume. People give the example of Spain but they didn't cross their mind that the immigrants did not cause the high unemployment. That was caused by Spain's inability to recover from the economic crash which led to the collapse of several sectors of industry and the withdrawal of foreign investment. It is similar to what happened in Greece. Nothing to do with the immigrants, which actually delayed the inevitable collapse.
In conclusion, this all backlash against immigration is just the tabloid press trying to sell issues through scaremongering and politicians getting on the wagon in order to gain political capital for the next elections. And in fact, because there are no real tragic economic consequences of immigration, it is fair to say that this is all just simple hate and xenophobia."
_AT_Knulp1 - You are totally wrong. This is about control of immigration. We have no control whatsoever and a majority of us want that control back. Even the Labour Party recognise the terrible damage done to the UK by uncontrolled immigration you are in a very small minority with your extreme views.
_AT_lids - The terrible damage done to the UK by immigration? You are joking right? Who is working in the service sector, in agriculture, in the NHS, in universities and so on? It's those Polish immigrants that you are blaming for I don't know what. Who do you think would work if they left? No one. Those businesses would close shut. Don't think that the British unemployed workforce would fill in those jobs. Because the wouldn't. Not because they are lazy, but because they are low paid and also simply enough, there wouldn't be enough workers to fill in those jobs. So those jobs would not exist without that rise in immigration from 10 years ago. It's quite basic economics really.
"_AT_lids -

They don't at all, they're just pretending they do to pander to the UKIP cretins."
"The original views I believe are very romanticised, whilst in previous generations the positive input of migrant workers was evident, back in the 60's we had south Asian migrants working here in the trade mills, in the late 90's we had Polish, Moldavian workers come as manual labourers during the property boom
Who worked hard, they made a positive contribution. However now there is no boom sector we are in economic decline there isn't the type of work available that the Bulk of the Romanian migrants are able to do which will then lead to asking if they can't find work here then what will they resort to in order to survive... Crime. There should be control measures put in place, yes allow Romania into the EU but the UK as a sovereign nation has the right to say unless you are a doctor or scientist or a financial or IT expert (industries where there is a need for skilled labour) you won't be coming into the UK.
The fact of the matter is there will be hundreds of thousands that don't have any skills other then manual labouring and unfortunately the UK at this stage in time doesn't need them, therefore they don't need to come here and be a drain on our stretched resources."
"_AT_Knulp1 - Well we've had record immigration over the last decade so we're all richer then ever, right?
The problem is you might be right in some of your arguments if we weren't a high-cost welfare state. You might be right if immigration were not a mechanism to concentrate wealth upwards into fewer hands.
But that's not the world we live in."
"_AT_Shimz Barak - I see what you're saying. However, you are wrong on one crucial aspect. First of all, the UK did control immigration from Romania and Bulgaria from 2007 until now (2014). The reason why those control measures will be removed has much to do with the way the international/European labour market works. Like any other free market, it has (in theory) the ability to regulate itself. That means that there will be a fair proportion between available jobs and available workers. And this theory works, or at least had worked so far. You don't see the unemployed Spaniards moving in to the UK to take advantage of the economy, do you? And it is the same with the new wave of EU workers. Most of them already have jobs and families in their own countries. They would not leave all that if they weren't sure they had the possibility of a job in the UK. So they won't come here, risking everything, and if that fails, taking up crime and begging and whatnot. In the same way that you or most people reading this site wouldn't make that silly decision, neither would they.
However, you are right about a possible rise in crime, because it won't be only the workers that might decide to move countries, but also possible criminals. However, with a bit of preparation, that could be easily avoided."
_AT_Knulp1 - no it is not just " hate and xenophobia". People are allowed to care about their homelands and their own people - these feelings are natural human emotions. You make the common error of only seeing the UK in terms of economics. Those who belong to the land see things differently.
"_AT_haardvark - I'm sorry, so you're basically saying that the financial crash had something to do with the immigrants?
However, previous to that, it wasn't that bad, was it?"
"_AT_helenahr - xenophobia is a very natural human emotion. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Even one month-old infants have it. But most people commenting here leave posts about the terrible economic effects of immigration. I was just pointing out that they are wrong.
I believe it would be more honest to just say that they don't like foreigners because they're odd, they have strange foods and habits, they speak their own scary language and they keep to their own. Don't you agree it would be more fair to just lay it out in the open?"
"_AT_Knulp1 - Nope, I'm saying immigration is good if it increases productivity. I see no evidence of this as most of the new work created in the UK has been low-paid service sector variety.
Explain to me for example how restaffing all the coffee shops and restaurants of London from Eastern Europe has benefited the economy? These people do not earn enough to pay enough tax to cover their own costs.
Of course it would if labour were in demand and that were released to do more productive work it would be a good thing. Again I see no evidence of this.
That before we get to additional infrastructure investment to offset the larger population. How about the housing for 3.4 million extra people we haven't built?
You can argue all you like about the merits of our newcomers, unfortunately those wonderful industrious people aren't a direct swap for those already here across the ability. What are we going to do with them? The logical conclusion of your argument is of course there is no point in educating or training anyone in the UK when it's easier and cheaper from abroad.
These things have consequences."
"_AT_Knulp1 -
How did we ever manage before 2004?!
I see we get the usual slur against the British ordinary (now unemployed) worker, driven from his work by employers using cheaper labour.
I would like to see a higher minimum wage, with it being strictly and punitively enforced against those in immigrant dominated businesses.
BTW The Romanians who left to go to Spain did not do so because of a lack of jobs, employment levels are quite high, but because of the low wages.. Those jobs have now largely been filled by imported unskilled labourers from India and China, so there is little or no prospect of the Romanians in Spain returning home now they are jobless and unwanted in Spain.
They will come here"
"_AT_haardvark - Well this is the problem here. You say you don't see the evidence, but the evidence exists. It's not just the low paid jobs. There are many immigrants in all sectors. Some of them extremely skilled: medics, engineers, university staff and so on.
And even if they weren't (which they are). Those businesses in the service sector would not exist if they did not have the workforce. And immigration creates that highly mobile and versatile workforce that is so needed by investors. So the advantage comes not from by taxing the worker. This is not how the economy works. The economic advantage comes from those businesses that are working well because they are fully staffed. And others that are opening business, because they have the workforce.
And you are definitely wrong by saying that the low-skilled people don't pay enough tax to cover their own cost. They definitely do. By a large margin. I think it's around 30-40% more.
And with the houses, again, you are quite wrong because you don't seem to be clear about how the economy actually works. The fact that immigrants need to be housed will create a demand for houses. And investors will build the houses. The housing market will boom. That means jobs, money in the budget, the whole deal.
You need to understand that it is not the state that will build housing. The UK is not communist. It is investors who will build houses and make a profit out of that, and from that profit a part will go to the state's budget, which will support the welfare system and so on. This is how the economy works. Workers are never cumbersome, they contribute, they do not take away.
And for your final argument, no, these people will not swap with the people already employed, or employable. Because immigration creates jobs. And this is quite an obvious fact."
"_AT_Knulp1 -

Some? Tell me how many? Who is saying we don't want those? I know Romanians in the mobile technology industry that came to the UK in the 1990s.
That's what work permits and points based migration scheme used throughout the world are for.
Why the rest?"
"_AT_haardvark - I don't know how many. but many. And I'm talking about immigrants in general, not just Romanians or Bulgarians.
And why open the market? This is just the belief that a free market is always better at balancing the supply with the demand than a planned economy. You might disagree with this principle and it would be fair enough. However, it has worked so far in the whole of EU. Even with some brilliant examples, like Germany or the Netherlands."
"_AT_outsidethebox - I would like to see a higher minimum way too, to be perfectly honest.
However, the Romanians from Spain that are now unemployed will not come here unless they will have job prospects. In which case, why not? It will not hurt the unemployed British worker. In fact, the taxes will pay for his unemployment welfare."
_AT_Knulp1 - and I was pointing out that the impacts of mass immigration to one small group of islands are far wider than just questions of economics. The people who live here with the reality have every right to discuss the issues. If you think that is "xenophobic", then that is your problem.
_AT_lids - you were not born when England lost control over the borders, you want it now?
It is clear that millions of those living in the UK are deeply unhappy about the existing impacts of sudden mass migration of millions of culturally and ethnically diverse people to this land. I don't want to vote UKIP but it seems to be the only available way in which to protest against the misery, destruction and mess created by the three main political parties.
"_AT_helenahr - That's the problem, the mainstream has failed the public. It offers only ""apologies"" long after the event in the certain knowledge they'll do nothing at all to put it right.
The big problem they have of labeling parties like UKIP as ""extreme"" is once people are used to being so labelled they won't actually care when it comes to the really nasty parties.
Also who is the extremist? Those that'll repsond to the public or carry on with a unwanted rate of migration which has no historic parallel. This ""always been a nation of migrants"" is utter guff in any meaningful context based on the current numbers. 40,000 Hugenots over 40 years and a similar number of Jews over a century or so is not the same as that number arriving every 24 weeks as is the case today."
He's only making votes for Nigel.
_AT_jaws44 - You are so right. Cameron is so dim-witted, he can't realize he won't profit from this scaremongering campaign.
I'm Romanian and I'm in UK since 2010. I work as an engineer and even though I paid all the taxes, I don't have access to NHS nor any other benefits because I'm Romanian. It means that I paid around 60 000 Pounds taxes these 3 years so that someone else could stay at home and do nothing. All Romanians I know here are in a similar position. Nobody hires a Romanian in UK if is not highly skilled or is a hard worker. Of course, it may be a small percentage that is doing bad things, but I guess the government has to find a method to sort this out. They should concentrate more on that I believe. Germany opened the work market for us long time ago and they don’t complain about being over populated by us. The Romanians that wanted to come to UK are already here, but well, I guess this brings more votes to them if they say it to the public. The big companies are looking for workforce, if they don’t find, they move to China. That’s why UK needs us and we need better salaries than in Romania.
_AT_Pirusis - You sound like a really decent person and I wish you luck with your search.it is just that with so few jobs available more people coming is a matter of concern for many of us. But that doesn’t mean we wish you any ill feeling.
"_AT_Pirusis - You are so right. I swear, people are so misinformed, they don't realize that jobs are created as people move in. The immigrants are not taking anyone's job. Or at least, not anyone that is reasonably qualified. It is in everybody's interest to have the best worker in a particular job. Foreign or not.
People really need to get out of this whole us against them mentality. I hope it happens sooner rather than later."
"Knulp1
So let me see if I have got this right?
We have over 2 million unemployed who presumably are desperately looking for work.
But you say “Allowing migrant workers in will only benefit the economy”?
Employers will be happy to have a fresh supply of skilled and unskilled workers.
You don’t state why a FRESH SUPPLY of workers is needed?
This means more profit, more investment, more jobs.
Why would bringing in more workers to an already depressed market mean more jobs?
I don’t mean to be rude but those hypothesises look doubtful to me."
"_AT_endeavourto - You will always have unemployed, no matter how strong is the economy. Contrary to what generally is said in crappy tabloids and repeated by some populist politicians, the UK does not have high unemployment. 2 million might seem like a lot if you saw them marching near your house, but they are really nothing out of a population of 62 million. (There is a problem with the decrease of the working population because of the fall in birth rates, but that's another issue.) The unemployment is relatively higher for the working population, however, it is still small, considering the recession. Which has nothing to do with immigration.
And about why more workers are needed, it is because the workers drive the economy, not the economy the workers. In a normal economy it is the workers that create the jobs and not the other way around. Why do you think there aren't businesses opening constantly? Because of lack of capital? There is plenty of capital and people willing to invest it in the UK, even in this recession. It is because of lack of people. So when more people arrive, more businesses will be open. Obviously, this happens in a working economy, not in Greece or Spain, where there are no investors willing to invest capital. But in the UK, all there is is capital."
_AT_endeavourto - over two million 'desperately looking for a job'? They don't look to desperate to me when they go to the Job Centre, I saw a young lad in his early 20s asking his girlfriend to take a photo in front of the job centre. that doesn't sound to me like desperation. I saw another completing his paperwork with the 'mandatory actions' required by the job centre for two weeks, on the wall next to the job centre. He didn't seem to desperate.
27000 Romanians were arrested in the last four years for picking pockets etc. by the Met alone. Romanians were top of the list by far for ATM fraud.
_AT_Cordite - Out of 80000 living in the UK? Wow! That's one in three who's a thief.
_AT_Knulp1 - I have to agree with you on this one.
_AT_Cordite - time to use again this great british invention - the concentration camp
"_AT_Cordite - probably there were arrested the same ten over and over again.
This is a very dangerous and untrue accusation. That's exactly how they started in the late 30s, accusing one ethnic group of every 'bad' in the world, and ended at Auschwitz. I don't need to ask you if this is what you want, because it is clear.
Presuming you do this to prevent any hypothetical Romanians to come here, in the same time you put at serious physical risk the Romanians living and working in this country for years and years. Just because you like a 'little lie every now and then'
this is an instigation to hating Romanians, an instigation to physical violence, to mass murder. Do you already imagine the beautiful chimneys on the British landscape? Do you intend to have their British friends and families destroyed too?"
""" those who do move are far more likely to go to Spain, Italy and to a lesser extent Germany."" Really?
Unless the immigrants have jobs lined up they will have to go on Job Seekers Allowance, or equivalent
Spain - JSA equivalent only available after workers have paid 360 days’ worth of social contributions in the six years prior to unemployment.
Italy - Workers must have paid 52 weeks of social contributions in the previous two years before JSA equivalent is allowed.
Germany - Workers must have been in employment and social contributions paid for at least 12 of the previous 24 months before JSA equivalent allowed.
UK - Income based Job Seekers Allowance is payable to anyone regardless of whether they have previously worked. There is no time limit on the duration which income-based JSA can be claimed.
Also Spain has 56.5 % youth unemployment rate and Italy 37.1% so they are hardly likely to welcome immigrants seeking work.
Which of these 4 countries would be the most attractive to a prospective immigrant?"
"_AT_monribot30 - I don't know how much that is true but in that case the UK must quickly change its Job Seekers Allowance policy. In France also you don't get any allowance of this kind unless you've worked previously. There's a logic to that especially when it comes to migrant labour - you don't want to attract foreign workers by making it easy for them to receive Job Seekers Allowance, they should be able to sustain themselves through their work.
I still do not understand why the EU went as far as creating a single job market (well I do, it's probably to please their friends in business). It's basically an invitation to hire cheap workers from poorer areas of the EU and it eliminates the last bastion of ""national preference"" that could have favoured jobseekers in their home country by making it easier to hire people who come from another EU state. Also, while increasing opportunities for EU jobseekers, it decreases the opportunities of non-EU ones, even if there are competent candidates amongst them."
That’s a good point and well researched. However, the rational starts from the premise that they would be going to said destination with only one concern that of claiming benefits. The evidence of that premise is missing from the argument.
"There is some evidence from different cultures that family member’s already in the country lend support until a job can be found. I have spoken to many immigrants who have told me in the past that that was how they survived until they found work. Others work for friends who are living in this county and are working, and they get fed and housed until they can find work.
On the other hand you could be right that they go on benefits, but family and friends that are already in their chosen destination country would surely play a significant part of their chosen destination don’t you think?
I could be wrong but again it seems that there is just no way of knowing how many will come and in many ways that’s the point, we do need to have controls."
Imagine the outcry in the UK if there were a million Romanians and Bulgarians living there permanently... the same number of UK-born residents in Australia.
_AT_SydneyGuy - why imagine? Just have to listen to the whinging Aussies ..They couldn't even get themselves an Australian born prime minister ....
_AT_SydneyGuy - have you noticed the difference between the size of Australia and the UK or is geography not your strong point?
"_AT_helenahr - Have you noticed the difference between the size of the Australian population and the UK population or statistics are not your strong point?
1 million UK-born residents in a country of 23 million (Australia) is huge.
1 million in a population of 63 million (UK) isn't as much."
_AT_helenahr - I have noted the size difference between the UK and Australia, despite not being a geographer. Pinturicchio10's observation about the relative population sizes between the two countries is more relevant to my comment: relatively speaking, Australia has far more migrants as a proportion of it's population than the UK.
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Though you have to admit, English food and weather, and general state of British dental hygiene, are big draw cards for people.
The Foreign Office have got it wrong again, and always have done, ever since Munich.
_AT_damandblast - so what did they get right before 1938?
The real immigration problem faced by the UK is the 5 million Brits living as migrants in other countries.
_AT_SydneyGuy - it is sad that you seem to hate British people who have migrated to other countries, but tell us why you hate them?
_AT_helenahr - Maybe he comes across as a hater but he's just retorting in the way Brits do about migrants in the UK. Complain about those who come to your country, but never mention those of you who have left the UK and enjoy a good life abroad. Never mind that the reasons (better future elsewhere, more opportunities, higher income, higher standard of living) which cause you to leave are globally similar to those which cause people from various countries to come to the UK.
_AT_helenahr - I definitely do not hate British people, and have family and friends there, as well as UK-born friends and family here. I am simply trying to make the point that immigration and emigration are part of most modern countries: Australia, the UK, Eire and almost everywhere else. When Australians - or Brits, for that matter - consider only one perspective, it is appropriate to point out the bi-directional nature of leaving one country and arriving in another. Few Western countries have only immigration or contribute only emigrants.
"But those 5 million had a qualification that that country needed or they would not have let them in.
Unlike the present situation when they are surplus to requirements."
I'm planning a move to the peaceful, sunny mountains of central Bulgaria, so ill happily do an exchange if it simmers down someone's blood pressure
well at least that means the car washers pushing their little trolleys hopefully in my direction aren't a figment of my imagination.
"_AT_endeavourto - You will always have unemployed, no matter how strong is the economy.(YES) Contrary to what generally is said in crappy tabloids and repeated by some populist politicians, the UK does not have high unemployment. 2 million might seem like a lot if you saw them marching near your house, but they are really nothing out of a population of 62 million.(62 million is a bogus figure because it represents the population, not the working population which is just over 32 million.2.5 million represents 7.8% unemployment that is high and made that much worse by what is going on around us. April 2013. Unemployment rate in Eurozone states hits 12% while UK manufacturing sector shrinks for second successive month)..(There is a problem with the decrease of the working population because of the fall in birth rates, but that's another issue.) The unemployment is relatively higher for the working population; however, it is still small, considering the recession. Which has nothing to do with immigration.
And about why more workers are needed, it is because the workers drive the economy, not the economy the workers.(No workers in jobs drive the economy) In a normal economy it is the workers that create the jobs and not the other way around. Why do you think there aren't businesses opening constantly? Because of lack of capital?(YES) There is plenty of capital and people willing to invest it in the UK, even in this recession. It is because of lack of people.(Cite your evidence for this assertion?) So when more people arrive, more businesses will be open. Obviously, this happens in a working economy, not in Greece or Spain, where there are no investors willing to invest capital. But in the UK, all there is capital. (Your mistaken if you think the banks are waiting with open arms to give money away on the basis that I have just got 50 Romanians to work in my factory so invest in my business,not going to happen, why? China.)"
This news story, that is entirely relevant to the UK and its population, has been given a quick hidden burial because British people expressed views unliked by the mods. Newspapers are only of value if they report and inform their readers. Newspapers that seek to contol public opinion and politics are overstepping their roles. This is not a communist state. The only way to get an informed opinion is to read everything, weigh up the information and then ask questions.
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Why am I not surprised? Have you tasted the food?
The cost of being an E.U member mounts. Is the dream of one big happy Europe all sharing each other’s resources working? It doesn’t matter what I say, it doesn’t matter what you say, the evidence speaks and that does matter. Is the E.U dream working YES or NO?
Yes,they WILL come. Irrespective of Cameron's views or anyone else, I have experience of this in another country.
"Any attempt at a sensible debate about immigration across Europe (including the UK) gets hijacked by bagfuls of hypocrisy from all sides of the debate. For example let's take the figures bandied about regarding the arrivals of Romanians and Bulgarians. The Tories say 350,000 to 400,000. Great. But that tells me little if I do not know how many people are leaving the UK at the same time (some readers here showed enough common sense to go research the net migration figures, which are much more useful). Without this information, one could argue that 350,000 is a lot. Another could say, it's little in a country of over 60 million people.
And then there's the common narrative lamenting that Europe is the major loser in the process of globalisation which has brought in a massive number of foreign workers. Never mind that foreigners were coming to Europe for work even before the EU rules and the acceleration of globalisation. Never mind that thousands of Europeans leave the EU to seek work abroad, thereby taking advantage of the same globalisation that they blame for their woes. Never mind that an EU passport opens lots of doors even outside the EU (try to find work outside your country of birth with a passport of a South-East Asian or African country).
Then you go to parts of the world like South-East Asia, Australia and even parts of Africa... and what do you see? Thousands of Europeans, mainly from France and the UK. They congregate into communities rather than trying to fit within their host country. They are not really bothered about possibly taking a job away from a local or bloating their host country's welfare systems. Europeans who move elsewhere tend to replicate exactly the sort of behaviour which they accuse immigrants of having in their country.
Now before the trolls arrive, let me say that I am not in favour of uncontrolled immigration. I believe the EU approach of open borders for jobseekers is wrong at a time of economic difficulty. Everywhere else in the world there exists some form of national preference. I also think that migration is based too much on the needs of businesses and not enough on the needs of societies. Businesses merely require labour (preferably cheap) while societies require citizens, and there's a gap there which neither businesses nor governments are addressing.
But next time before you knock on migrants, just remember that there are millions of Britons all over the world who have chosen this way of life. Bear in mind that the reasons that lead them to do so are roughly the same that lead the Bulgarian or the Filipino to come to the UK: hope of a better future and higher standards of living.
If all countries decide to close their frontiers, millions of Europeans in the world would lose out on major opportunities and have to come back to their country with their tails between their legs."
It's impossible to assess this report as it hasn't been published on their website.
I hope that these findings, trustworthy or otherwise, do not distract us from the fact that unemployment is largely the result of the fetish for efficiency that has one worker doing the work of two or three, often putting in non- negotiable unpaid overtime, and of course the outsourcing of jobs abroad and the reliance on underpaid and underemployed agency temps from the 90s on. But hey, let's not let that get in the way of blaming the immigrants, especially the ones who pay us eye-watering fees to study at our top universities- the only thing we excel at in the UK, at least for a little bit longer.
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16484918
And here's another organisation which has done a report released today and said basically the complete opposite. It's almost, almost, like people are talking out of their arse and using biased analysis to prove ideological points one way or the other."
Globalisation and 'efficiency' of technology have deliberately destroyed jobs as Charlottejane points out. Immigration is merely a tangential part of globalisation, but it's the only part that the overlords want the masses to get angry about. Because it protects their own supremacy in a corrupt system. Plus ça change.
"Blumey !
Well, well, well.....
Style of thing"
...yeah, and in another study, it was discovered that the status (and therefore pay) of economists increased in direct proportion to the contentiousness of their findings.
"If only 23 of the migrants are displacing British workers, then the other 77 of them must be on the dole!
Why wouldn't they be? It's certainly easier on the back than picking strawberries."
"Of course mass immigration keeps manual workers' wages down. That's what it's for.
It began in Britain after the Second World War, when new ideas about rights and equality were in the air and workers started demanding better pay and conditions. It continues now. It just shows up more after a few decades of unrealistic boom times.
It's tough at the lower end of the scale, competing with new arrivals who don't mind living 10 to a house for a few years in order to save most of their wages. (We see a lot of this in east London.)
But it's fine for middle-class commentators who get cheap cleaners. And theirs are of course the voices we usually hear."
Total rubish it's not just the non EU that is the problem, in my home town before I left England for Canada,There were at least three supply warehouse's that would only employ Polish or employees from the old eastern bloc , they had even changed all of the signs in the building to Polish, all of the information on the notice boards were also not in English,I know of at least a dozen English people that had been laid off from other companies in the town,try to get jobs there, not one succeeded,That fact alone reminds me of why I got out.
"http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/10/migrants-no-effect-jobless-report
So on the one hand there's a report where it says migrants have no effect on joblessness. And on the other hand there's a report that says there is.
But comments are only allowed on the second article...."
"As technology becomes more progressive, surely it's inevitable that human effort is no longer required? Take a look at those Tesco self checkouts they install right after crushing a small family business nearby, takes only one person to manage 8-10!
Am I naive in saying there might very well be a point at which we realise the paradox of our system? Yes efficiency is good, but when it also costs people that which they need to live, perhaps a change is in order."
"I think that immigrants are the secondary caue. Too many of today's youth are locked into the

culture.
If they would get off their arses, get an education and be prepared to look for work and take work that is hard they would compete well against immigrants beit from the EU or non EU countries.
I saw a news report a couple of years ago tht showed Polish workers earning 150 pound a day working in the fields in Norfolk.
They then interviewed young Natives leaving the local job centre and they all dismissed working at such a demeaning job preferring the dole, despite most weren't qualified to do anything other than simple manual work.
I am not a Tory Troll by the way it's just the way I see it."
"Guardian should have a thread where we could bet on the outcome of certain issues.
Like the reopening of the Hammersmith Flyover for instance.
Just listen to Boris talking about it.
Could be ready 'in days or weeks' he says.
Unbelievable.
An engineers opinion would be interesting ?
I mean they have to replace those steel supporting cables I understand.
But I doubt one can pop down B&Q and grab a trolley full of the cables.
Specialized bespoke cables I would guess, that have to be made.
I'm guessing another 6 weeks.
Higher ? Lower ?
Style of thing"
"Immigrant are usually educated, foot loose and fancy free.
Are 55+years unemployed expected to go strawberry picking every day. Seasonal anyway.
Poland was handed to Russian economic dominance after the 11WW by the Allies. One reason it's economy is a mess.
Russian (Commies? Eastern bloc) made the greatest sacrifice for freedom in the West. 20Millions Russians died in the 11WW. Bankrupted Russia. The Arms Race in the 1970's was bankrupting Russia and the US,"
British colonalism didn't pay dividends.
"The government is entirely to blame for unemployment, due to the generous benefits and ""jobseekers"" allowance and their inability to control immigration.
It's funny that the number of immigrants is generally similar to the number of unemployed, who are largely lazy, British lard-arses. There is a solution to the problem, but the government would need to grow some first!"
"I'm trying to imagine a young British woman picking strawberries in her bra like that.
Can anyone explain the UK's obsession with temp agencies to me?"
lets tell the truth here ! the Guardian was never going to agree with what the Migration Committee found in its research. The guardian is only interested in mocking the Tories its a unhealthy obsession and maybe stops you reporting good stories and giving the facts?.
"Response to LondonBuddleia, 10 January 2012 11:27am
""Of course mass immigration keeps manual workers' wages down. That's what it's for.""
No bus drivers ? No nurses ?
What about making the pay more attractive?
Nah ! Lets get workers in from abroad instead ! ( And very useful added benefits for the social engineering program ).
""Well. if we don't pay the bankers bonuses and high salaries they will leave the country!""
Uh ?
Funny old world.
Style of thing"
"Feckless dope smoking local youth v. hard grafting, probably well educated, migrant....
- your business/farm- what choice would you make ???
...On the other hand employers seem to adopt a line of least resistance : once the workforce has reached a critical mass of migrant workers the divisions and tensions reach a point whereby harmony is most easily restored by going all migrant.
Down here in the garden of England the fruit farms were on there knees 10 years ago, orchards were being scrubbed out and those that remained were invariably not even harvested. Is it coincidental that the availablity of a willing workforce facilitated a turmaround ?"
"Response to FredinSpain, 10 January 2012 11:38am
An education is expensive these days, and not very useful when you're stuck picking fruit in Lincolnshire.
Some Polish people may have managed to earn an OK wage in this fashion- good for them- but it's piecework, making it harder to enforce the NMW which technically applies. And it's only an OK wage when you spend it in Poland at local prices, not really an option to the average native of Gainsborough or wherever. And would you have Brits living in the overcrowded and dangerous conditions that recent immigrants do? Looks like, with the dismantling of the welfare state, we will soon have to live that way too, and be grateful for whatever scraps of employment are thrown our way, however exploitative. I have trouble seeing this as progress, though."
"Response to rwilko, 10 January 2012 11:48am
""Feckless dope smoking local youth""
Shit social and educational policies, and social engineering.
Style of thing"
"Having left school in the 1980’s and being brought up in a Glasgow scheme I can remember the devastating effects of high unemployment on family and friends. The long term effects of youth unemployment are considerable, increased drug and alcohol dependency, violent crime, burglaries, child pregnancies, domestic abuse, broken families and shorter life expectancy. The mass surge in immigration over the last twenty years will make all of this more common across the UK even within more affluent areas. It is only then I suspect something will be done.

The reality is, if immigration is not reversed immediately there is no future here for any of our children regardless of ethnicity."
"Response to Charlottejane, 10 January 2012 10:54am
Non-negitiable overtime is a highly dubious claim without evidence and of course one person cannot do the work of two people, by definition."
"_AT_Charlottejane
An education to A level standard is free. If you can combine good A level results with a demonstration that you are in work, used to getting up every morning and not afraid of hard work, you will impress an Employer far more.
It's a myth that most Employers are looking for cheap labour, they are looking for literate, numerate people with a demonstrated work ethic."
But why EU migrants have no impact while non-EU do? Sounds a bit... bogus.
"""Feckless dope smoking local youth v. hard grafting, probably well educated, migrant....
- your business/farm- what choice would you make ???""
It seems like such a simple choice...
Until you run out of people to buy your wares because they are all unemployed...
The issue is that EU and NON EU migrants alike do not have the same cost of living that an average UK family has. Their family may be back in their own country where food/land etc is exceptionally low priced. Therefore - the new workforce have a huge competative advantage that is almost insurmountable by a UK based worker.
Then you consider Economics, you know the ol' multiplier effect etc. Yes UK workers may cost more, but they also put more monies back into the UK Economy. A stronger UK economy benefits most UK businesess. Migrant workers tend to send their spare cash abroad and like very fugally.
So a business can on the one hand, save costs NOW by employing migrants and suffer from a large depression later. Or they can pay properly up front, NOT reap the high profilitability, but at least have some kind of sustainable business...
Unfortunately, most businesses have gone for the profit yesterday, worry about tomorrow next week approach..."
"Response to Imageark, 10 January 2012 11:57am
""Shit social and educational policies, and social engineering""
true......and the cause of the void that has been filled by migration."
So, hundreds of thousands of immigrants enter Britain every year looking for official and unofficial work. Report suggests this could affect the job prospects of people already in the UK. Next you will be telling us that the Labour leader thinks it's a good idea to reduce spending!
"Since this report was commissioned by ministers ""after a Home Office impact assessment put the cost to the economy of the government's curbs on overseas students at more than £2bn a year"", they would say that wouldn't they?
The Independent says the opposite and apparently ""The respected National Institute of Economic and Social Research found that there was ""no association"" between higher immigration and joblessness – even at times of recession or low growth of the sort that Britain is experiencing at the moment.""
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/immigration-does-not-cause-unemployment-6287404.html"
"What people shiould remember is that just like nuclear technology, we can not reverse immigration as if it did not exist. The genie is out of the bottle and we have to live with it.
As a descendant of immigrants I know people migrate for a variety of reasons. Not everyone jumped on a banana boat to live off UK benefits! There are benefits and burdens with migration in any country. When the economy is booming all the politicians and business people love immigrants because of increased profits. When the there is recession or economy is in trouble its all the immigrants fault,
The immigrants from non-EU countries are here for exactly the same reasons as those from European countries. For jobs, better conditions and improving there lives. Trying to separate the two is very convenient for Politicians and those like Migration Watch! One group the non-EU migrants have no votes and can easily be trampled on. The European migrants on the other hand rights in law and their governments can and will bite back at UK polticians.
There should be immigration controls, there should be laws that are enforced but kets not get carried away and all our problems are caused by immigrants?"
"Of course importing workers increases unemployment and reduces wages.

So the effects of immigration on housing are largely concentrated in the areas where the housing shortage is most accute.
The UK economy does not currently need immigration, except perhaps in certain key areas. It certainly does not need unskilled immigration. There should be no unskilled immigration from outside the EU (we have to accept that as the flipside of us having the opportunity to go the other way)."
"Response to smgwh01, 10 January 2012 11:28am

...and became an immigrant yourself."
"Response to WinstonDunkirk, 10 January 2012 11:26am
So we would solve the current youth unemployment crisis, if only they would get out there picking strawberries?"
"One simple explanation is that EU migrants are more likely to return home when job opportunities dry up as the Polish by-and-large have done. People from further away, especially if they come from intolerable societies, are more likely to stick it out even if they lose their job or are driven to accept poor wages and working conditions.
We see the same in other parts of the world. People slosh back and forth across neighbouring borders as opportunities arise, but those who have come from distant lands never return no matter how bad things get. That makes them open to exploitation and to driving down working conditions for everybody.
Who to blame? Well, not the immigrants from wherever. If I were born in some pokey hole, I'd be out of there like a shot. What would you do?"
Any reason why comments are open on this article, but not the one showing immigrants do not impact on unemployment levels?
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"In other breaking news carpenters son in Jeruselum claims to be son of god.
The idea that allowing millions of people in who could do unskilled labour wouldn't affect wages or job opportunities because to say so was racist and immigration has to be a good thing. Was the biggest load of idealistic ignorance ever.
The middle class left sold out the working class and finished of what Thatcher started by backing mass immigration. Unions power came from unity and control of labour, immigration removed that. The middle class left was too busy calling anybody who complain racist to notice."
"Response to savitaalexander, 10 January 2012 11:44am
Agencies provide zero hour contracts workers at the drop of a hat. No need for sick pay or pensions either.
If the above turns you on, you are part of the problem."
"Response to FredinSpain, 10 January 2012 11:38am

150 POUNDS A DAY?!
That would be 750 quid a week, 3 grand a month.
For fruit picking? I have my doubts, but if the figure is right, show me where I can sign up. Sod this teaching lark..."
Watch how quickly this research is attacked by some MP or other.
I just love the comments about strawberry picking! What about all the IT jobs that we are filling up with Indian contractors on rates of £300/£400/£500 a day? Half of them don't even have the skills that they claim they have.
"Response to Charlottejane, 10 January 2012 10:54am
what a lousy analysis. So, according to you we should never try to increase efficiency in our production?
And if so, why don't we just give spoons to all workers and destroy all machinery? In that way, we can employ everybody!
If one worker can do the job of three workers of yesterday, we should then be able to trebble production ,or reduce the number of hours worked with our newfound efficiency. At the same time, we can dramatically lower the cost of the good produced which makes it more accesible to more people. Indeed, that's exactly what has happened. Or how do you think it has been possible for people to have multiple computers, smart phones, xboxs, and so forth, when 50 years ago they could barely afford 1 TV per household?
Oh, and finally, please read teh article. It talks mainly about low-skilled jobs, rather than those paying 'eye-watering' fees as you put it."
labour let into britain when they were in power,2.2 million immigrants from outside the EU and then labour signed upto letting the new european countries at the time send their people over to britain to work evan though they knew unemployment was growing in britain and only three european countries signed upto to this,it was optional and britain was one of these countries.
"2.62 million unemployed in the UK
2.56 million non-UK nationals in British employment
Coincidence?"
Referring to the second last para of the article I would be grateful if someone, ideally the journalist who has seen the report, please explain why non-EU migrants have caused job displacement and not EU migrants. An explanation is crucial to understanding the findings and it is not explained anywhere.
"Response to deku13, 10 January 2012 11:36am
this kind of analysis is based on a clear misconception. Is efficiency is the problem, then why don't we just replace all tools with spoons? In that way we can maximize employment.
If a machine does the work of 10 people, then those 10 people can now work on something else, increasing total production. If the Tesco cashiers are redundant, they can go and work on a different, more rewarding area, increasing the total output of the country. The other option of course, would be to reduce the total number of hours worked, for example having Friday as part of the weekend.
Indeed, without efficiency growth would just either be using more natural resources (unsustainable in the long run) or asset bubbles (like the property crash). It's efificency that represents real growth, because it means we do more with the same resources available to us."
"Response to mike944, 10 January 2012 12:39pm
at least in IT there's a lack of people in the country, so there's a need to import new ones (at least until more study computer science)."
"Shock, report proves the blatantly obvious. The question we have to ask, is why it has been so controversal to argue this position, esspecially in this paper. Were to hold any other position, than immigration is entirely a good thing, is to be called a racist. I think this part of the article gives a clue

So the wealthy privately educated staff of the Guardian do well out of immigration. It is easy for them to dismiss the complaints of those at the bottom as racism.
That isn't to attack imigrants themselves, there is something impressive about people willing to endure great hardships to find a better life here. It is unfortunate that increased imigration can have a negative impact on the lives of the poorest and weakest in this country. However that doesn't excuse the attitude of too many who write for this part. Who dismiss the complaints of the working classes about imigration."
"Why do people feel it is automatically cheaper for immigrants to live in the UK than Brits. They do not have the family support systems in place for them here and they spend their wages in the UK. When you add the fact that most of them have to still save up a bit more to send back home, it is even more expensive for them.
People talk about immigrants living cramped like sardine. The only reason why they do this is because they have goals and personal targets to be something in the future and will do what ever it takes to get there. Its all about who wants it the most and employers are more interested in those employees who are physically and mentally willing (not just able) to work hard.
The vast majority of employers are Brits and i think they would prefer to first employ Brits before going to the EU/non EU, hence i believe immigrants only pick up the slack. The problem is that this slack includes both work where we dont have enough people to fill and work where people are not interested in filling....locals need to step up to remove the latter while acknowledging the former"
Pure coincidence. It's not non EU migrants' fault that large sections of the British working age population lack any kind of work ethic.
"Response to lordsandwich, 10 January 2012 12:45pm

That depends on how that increased productivity is used. In this country, companies will sack workers, and increase the pay of those at the top. We don't invest in new industries to employ the people who have lost their jobs, because of productivity improvements.
As a rule British business doesn't improve productivity full stop, our record when it comes to productivity is woeful. Give a British manger the choice between spending money on new technology and equipment or simply making the existing the workforce work longer hours for less. They will choose the later cheaper option."
"An indirect but relevant aside...
Not taking a cheap shot by any means, but more than one visiting friend, and friends of friends, to Dublin has asked me why, when dropping into Irish tourism shops in Dublin city centre, or the famed (to tourists) Temple Bar district, why are most of the the staff Chinese, Polish, Asian etc?
Firstly: Why not?
But secondly: Err... I don't know... but it's something that catches tourists' attention here - that when they go looking for the 'authentic' Irish experience, they're unlikely to meet any, y'know, actual Irish people on the way.
I have various long-term, settled immigrant friends living here, and they surely need to work as much as the locals do, and I worry as much about their job prospects as I do my own. Of course!
Still... it's hard not to notice the role of employers in determining job markets, and the roles that immigrants then subsequently play in local and national employment trends, whethere here or in Britain.
After all, a - say - hotel chain doesn't end up with 80% Eastern European staff purely by chance. A fast food chain doesn't end up with 90%+ immigrant staff purely by chance. Ignoring the fact that, yes, some indigenous people simply won't work in such jobs, which they view as ""beneath them"" yet ""good enough for immigrants"", there are a hell of a lot of such people with mortgages, children, etc who would take such jobs - yet they're already filled, and (crucially) become filled with non-EU (as well as EU) staff. You can't blame the staff and individuals for getting/working these jobs, of course - but it does raise questions over the balance, and the employers' role in choosing/filling these positions, doesn't it?
Oooooh, it's so hard to have this kind of debate without sounding like you're in the ""I'm not a racist but..."" camp, or like you're firmly in the blinkered 'Them' and 'Us' brigade, I know...
Still, awkward questions/points should be part of any sensible, adult debate, and while I'd never question an individual's right or will to migrate, build a better life and so on - there are enough Irish people living all around the world who are doing exactly this, right now - the conscious decisions and policies of employers remains an interesting issue that doesn't seem to be discussed much... Hmmm..."
"Any reason why comments are open on this article, but not the one showing immigrants do not impact on unemployment levels?

Probably the Guardian's right-wing bias? Or, it could just be that thousands of immigrants entering Britain every year may just have a marginal influence on the availability of jobs?"
Good lord, what a blindingly obvious conclusion.
"If its not immigration, its lazy british, if its not lazy british its the uneducated british!
Those of you stating that there are to many lazy brits out there need to apologize, look at all the redundancies that have taken place! Thousands are being made redundant each month, are these people(most with at least 15 years in a company) lazy? No they are not. Yes there are a number of youngsters who do not have much going for them but there are also a number of immigrants that take advantage of all the benefits. In terms of migration there are no people moving out of the country yet there are hundreds each week moving in, do the maths or use a bit of common sense and it doesn't take much to realise that the country is full up! We need to close the boarders to those wanting to live and work here untill we are stable enough to take them on and the only way in being able to support more people is to start britain real industry again! instead of buying products abroad start investing for companies to make the product at home instead of investing taxpayers money on un-needed fast rail lines and stop giving £22 million a year to india(they no longer need it)"
"""Who to blame? Well, not the immigrants from wherever. If I were born in some pokey hole, I'd be out of there like a shot. What would you do?""
Thats the whole crux of the issue isnt it? So many countries have so much, compared to ethiopia for instance, yet they do not want to lose what they have by diluting it between the people living in these poorer countries.
You cant blame the immigrants for wanting to earn more money. Who wouldnt?
The issue thoughis that accepting mass immigration of people who are substantially less well off than the people already in your country is always going to cause problems.
These migrants are here with their millions spending freely simply taking in the english countryside. they are here to take the money, send it back home and be very pleased about it.
Thats why the 'ex pats' argument is always flawed. Generally english ex pats moving abroad take more wealth than they remove from their host economy. Sadly the immigrants who tend to move to england en mass will only a, take jobs, b, become a drain socially, be that in NHS costs or otherwise."
"I'm British and worked for agencies across europe up until recently, here are the facts.
We where required to work the hours as required by the business owner, I worked on average 70 to 80 hours per week. Lived in shared accommadation with other contractors which was deductable from my wages, my earnings was taxed in the UK at a rate of 9% and found out that the taxes sometimes where not paid by the agency. This i found out when i settled down in the Netherlands and recieved a huge tax bill from the Dutch government for unpaid taxes that the agency was suppose to pay, this is rampant across europe and agencies are very well known to avoid paying taxes as much as possible. The agencies use colourful accountants to make sure they can avoid paying what they should, same with the Polish workers and others. the whole business is based on tax avoidance.
In Holland the average Dutch worker is not keen to work to much overtime as their tax payments would increase to 52%, so we contract workers fill in the hours that the boss needs to get his goods out of the factory/farm doors. Once I worked for 36 hours in one shift without choice operating a very large Horizotal borer (CNC), health and saftey not considered even thou they constantly hold tool box meeting with regards to this. We are no longer required as the eastern europeans where willing to work well below the local rates, not having the same cost and out goings as we did ie Morgage at home in the UK and other added social costs that we where obliged to pay by law.
I have no problems with immigrants as I am one myself, the bosses use one against the other just to save the odd Euro here and there to increase his/her profit. But what i would like you people to understand here, where does it stop? When we are working for nothing just bread and water! These jobs that the immigrants take in the UK the average UK worker cannot take on as it pays well below their out goings to survive and pay bills.
Is this the way you all want to go? its not pretty when you see your fellow collegues falling into dispair away from families which lead on to drug and alchohol dependancy, i've seen the corpses.
Sorry for any grammer and spelling mistakes, teachers thought I was not capable of taking my exams and left school 78 without no qualification.
ps, not all British workers are lazy as some may believe."
"""Their family may be back in their own country where food/land etc is exceptionally low priced. Therefore - the new workforce have a huge competative advantage that is almost insurmountable by a UK based worker.""
""And it's only an OK wage when you spend it in Poland at local prices, not really an option to the average native of Gainsborough or wherever.""
...because people are commuting from Krakow or Lagos, where cost of living is cheaper? Once someone moves to the UK, they have to start paying UK prices on everything too, you know."
"to smgwh01
<<Total rubish it's not just the non EU that is the problem, in my home town before I left England for Canada,There were at least three supply warehouse's that would only employ Polish or employees from the old eastern bloc , they had even changed all of the signs in the building to Polish, all of the information on the notice boards were also not in English,I know of at least a dozen English people that had been laid off from other companies in the town,try to get jobs there, not one succeeded,That fact alone reminds me of why I got out.>>
Double standards: so now you are an immigrant in another country complaining that there are too immigrants in your native country. Brilliant!
Yes, having more people in a country that pay taxes, pay wages, buy goods and services is awful, isn't it?
The more people able to generate wealth in a society, the wealthier the society is, both economically and culturally."
Alas a lot of unemployed Brits especially the young and the feckless underclass think these hard graft get your hands dirty jobs are beneath them or don't pay enough.This despite the fact that they have few or no skills to offer to the workplace.
"Research after research shas proven a link between the availability of jobs for the unskilled and mass immigration. I clearly remember one from 3 or 4 years ago, on Newsnight. The presenter concluded that mass immigration was bad for the unskilled. Yet left leaning lobbying organizations are still denying the obvious. (Blunkett at the Home Office said he ""didn't know"" the right level of immigration and frankly didn't seem to care.) This is one other very good reason why Labour lost in 2010.
UK government ""training schemes"" like the New Deal have broadly failed the unemployed, so the argument that after ""retraining"" UK workers will be better able to compete with cheaper immigrants doesn't apply.
Employers, faced with the choice of someone outside the UK coming into the UK and willing to work for less than an unemployed UK worker, is clearly going to choose the former. Overseas workers are used to working for a pittance, and for a time they can't claim UK benefits, so no UK worker already on benefits is going to be able to compete. This is a market economy and labour costs are part of the equation.
When will apologists for mass immigration grasp these very simple, but essential, points?"
"Response to FredinSpain, 10 January 2012 11:38am
So - increased unemployment has nothing to do with fat-cat bonuses at the other end of the scale then?
Seems to me you can't ignore that if you're going to hog the duvet for yourself some people at the
other end will get cold...."
"Response to rico1970, 10 January 2012 1:21pm
When will apologists for mass immigration grasp these very simple, but essential, points?
Er....aren't most of them entrepreneurial tories?
I have four sons, not many of them in work; not one of them seems to see the problem coming from the 'mass' immigration mentioned as most of those work in curry houses or run taxis. Come to think of it, when did you (ever) see ethnic minorities allowed to work on a building site?"
"Response to jonjoepeel, 10 January 2012 1:28pm
What ,the big cities are full of foriegn labour ,plus drivers,many of them good hard working people-but having spent years on building sites,there are many allowed,many indeed."
"Response to smgwh01, 10 January 2012 11:28am
That old classic. Did you see this yourself? Any warehouse with no signage in English would be closed on its first safety inspection. Also it is illegal to recruit based on race under UK Employment Law."
"Response to TimMiddleton, 10 January 2012 12:23pm
The differce is it took me 3 years, $20,000 and I had to prove that I had sklls that no Canadian had .If one single Canadian had applied for the same position Then I would not have been offered it.,In Canada they always offer it to there own first ,Look up Local Market Opinion for Canada,In addition you get no benefits if you have not paid into the system.On top of that any benefits you do get are for a very limited period once again based on your contributions."
it's because people who write for The Guardian are self-righteous, anti-patriotic wankers who are out to score cheap moral points.
"Response to MidnightTrainToEgham, 10 January 2012 11:42am
You're right about it being the governments fault, but it's nothing to do with benefits and if you think they're in any way generous, you're either blind or an idiot...."
"Response to esceptico, 10 January 2012 1:36pm
In response, Yes I did see it with my own eyes. I worked for British Telecom and we changed their Telephone system ,Dont talk to me about British law it is changed to suit the situation"
"Don't assume that migrations from non-EU countries concerns people from developing nations. In 2008, the largest group of long-stay migrants were Britons returning from living overseas. Other large groups include people from US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.
I detect a popular will to restrict migration from developing countries and East Europe but none whatsoever from countries like Australia.
It should be added that most illegal migrants are those who stay longer than they should. They are likely to be from the US and Australia and again, no one cares illegals from these countries."
"when younger i worked in the fields in kent and norfolk
that work is now taken by the immigrants and so no extra boost for young people in the uk, looking for a way out
recent times in my last job over had the department in IT was filled by people from outside the EU and they were actively discriminating against UK workers when hiring, they got rid of me in the end
the powers in control have no thought to what the rest of us peasants are going to do to survive, they see nothing in us but convenient labour, they see nothing in our culture or history
how can we compete with people who send money back home that multiplies it's worth due to the massive differences in cost of living"
"Response to smgwh01, 10 January 2012 11:28am
Too right! Canada for the English! Immigration is wrong!"
"Response to esceptico, 10 January 2012 1:36pm

yes and when you see it happening what can you do?
absolutely nothing as it's all stacked against you
you tell me why many IT departments have skewed race makeups, with high percentages of Indians for example and don't tell me it's because they can't get the staff, there are many IT workers in the UK unemployed and willing, myself being one of them
you hear it said time and time again on TV about how british workers are not as good as Polish/Indians etc etc, if these statements were said the other way around there would be legal action taken as they are clearly racist..."
"Response to Simongah, 10 January 2012 1:43pm
Simoongah
Surely, you should know why.
If not, I ll give you a hint. Our friends on those very vile, hateful and murky websites will allude to the fact that an overwhelming majority of them are from the 'same stock'."
"Response to Charlottejane, 10 January 2012 11:49am
Charlottejane
10 January 2012 11:49AM
Response to FredinSpain, 10 January 2012 11:38AM
An education is expensive these days, and not very useful when you're stuck picking fruit in Lincolnshire.
. . . . . .
Not really
It can be done using distance learning at a time that suits the learner and its getting cheaper all the time as the states monolopy on education and accreditation is slowly being buried."
"_AT_rwilko


the destruction of the kent fruit industry falls squarely at the door of the big supermarkets and not with the british workforce, BTW it's still going on"
"""Once someone moves to the UK, they have to start paying UK prices on everything too, you know.""
They might, but their family who may remain at 'home' do not.
Consider for instance the cost of Child Care...to a UK family this will be VERY expensive, we are talking £600+ a Month? plus what, £600 a mortgage? Petrol, gas, etc etc etc
Example:
Now the 'man' (tying not to be sexist but im being realistic) leaves his home in Poland waving goodbye to his wife and kid(s). He earns a UK wage £15,000-£20,000. But he isnt incurring the same costs as a UK based family would. He sends a fair wedge of that cash home which more than covers the house and kids his wife might not even have to work now, CASHBACK! And yes he may live up to 10 in a shack with other like minded immigrants who are willing to live a few months of less than ideal conditions for the £££ they are taking home at the end of it.
So no your post is pretty much irrelevant.
Of course the option for a UK guy to fly his family over to poland, leave them there and come back and do a job in the UK whilst his family live the 'rich life' in a poor country...But this is less than ideal from a practical standpoint."
"_AT_Shambouli

absolute tosh, where you get your degree from has become increasingly important and distance learning degrees ( not cheap either ) won't cut it, this is after all the same model from the US we are following..."
"Bloody hell - who would have thought that allowing people from abroad to come and take jobs in a country would reduce the number of jobs available for the native people in that country ?
Whatever next, eh? Pope takes Roman turn? Bear heads for woods?"
Hmmm further cuts to non-EU immigrantion? Well - that would go down well with India. "Eat English muff ..." but don't send your nationals here -type of thing?
"'We want your money, but we dont want you'
is more like it!
Many countries, such as America ensure that you have x amount in your bank account before they admit you. How stringent we are when considering letting people in, im not sure."
"We should call imigrants who come into the UK to live and work 'expats'.
Problem solved!"
"Response to peterainbow, 10 January 2012 1:54pm
I visit a lot of supply warehouses as I am a developer working in supply chain and merchandising software. I agree most I have been working in over the last few years have had a high percentage of non domestic workers. When I have asked the companies about it most have said they are concerned about the potential for negative local press and have tried to recruit locally and failed. Interestingly the main problem they have had is not wages it is the working hours. Modern warehousing operations run on pretty unattractive shift patterns which either people won't do or can't do because of family commitments.
As for the IT side of things I use a lot of off shore development (in fact I am myself I work from Japan now). That is a tricky one and also interesting because it will not have been taken into account in these findings. That practice is probably more worrying for IT workers. As for domestic IT departments I'm wondering what you mean by ""skewed race makeups""?"
"Response to smgwh01, 10 January 2012 11:28am
Did you take the trouble to investigate the commodities handled by those suppliers or the nationality of the operating business? I only ask because I did a bit of BtoB shopping at a Lithuanian wholesalers in East London last summer and it was immediately clear that competence in lietuvių kalba would be a huge advantage for anyone seeking work there.
Where do you think the ethnic restaurant and specialist retail sector buys its supplies? For practical reasons, it is inevitable that such establishments will exist. For similar practical reasons, it is equally inevitable that it will display signs in the language of its staff and customers."
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"Response to willwordsmith, 10 January 2012 11:09am
This situation is worringly remindful of the blame put on the Jews for the economic collapse of Germany after WWI..."
"Response to ErikVanSalle, 10 January 2012 2:01pm
Who would have thought?
Only people who are dumb enough to view the job market as a zero-sum game."
"It's quite obvious that all the unskilled labour from both the EU and beyond HAS indeed had a very negative effect on both jobs and wages for indigenous Brits,very many of us have known this for a very long time,now others are realising it too.Many of the jobs that our young people traditionally did after leaving school or college have been scooped up by dirt-cheap foreign labour,no wonder we have record numbers of our youngsters with no work and little hope of finding any.
Unfortunately we can't do much about those coming in from the EU,except leave,which very many of us would do in a heartbeat if we had the chance,BUT we CAN control those from outside the EU,we should drastically curtail their number without delay,if not stop inward migration from outside the EU altogether."
"Response to PaxGrass, 10 January 2012 10:52am
You can clearly see displacement of unskilled workers.
Who wants an 51 year old English reformed (he says) alcoholic as a building site labourer when you can have a 25 year old single engineering graduate willing to work with his aspirational middle-class discipline?
That was literally what I saw with my own eyes. I can understand the employers seeing the value of someone deserving of £25 an hour on £6.6 an hour, but arguably the 51 year old - and his family - is more needing of a lifting, shifting and sweeping job."
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"Oh, might i add that for every British expat who gets hired outside of the UK, there are probably SEVERAL local / natives who suffer from a reduction in employment in their countries.
Please remember that, Britons."
Any extra people are going to put more strain on our resources when those resources are deliberately limited by the self-entitled scroungers who own them. Too bad the right wing "solution" is to put up barriers to migration instead of calling for fairer access to our natural wealth. We can support many more people than we already have, as long as the greedy get their snouts out of the trough.
"Response to jonjoepeel, 10 January 2012 1:28pm

Erm, each and every time I have worked on a building site."
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"Response to smgwh01, 10 January 2012 1:37pm
Which is what applies to non-EU immingration to the UK.
I cannot, do not and not interested in claiming any benefits in the UK even though i will be paying close to £10K in taxes and NI in this year alone. Thsi is what is applicable for almost all non-EU immigration. I cannot say same for EU migration.
As the government is unable to point to the east for the origins of the labour tide, we focus on non-EU migrants who are mostly highly educated/skilled net contributors to the system"
"Response to Ken900, 10 January 2012 11:39am
For heavens sake ken, get down before you fall. There economy in a mess because of what happened after the 2nd world war... that was over 60 something years ago!..."
you know that most fruit pickers live in on-site caravans?
"Most employers want the cheapest option when it comes to hiring staff, they don't care if your British, Albanian, or a Martian, they don't have loyalties to there own people, they want the highest profit margin........people are commodities.
I've worked with Eastern Bloc Europeans and the bulk of the money they earn here is sent home for second homes, so the money is draining away from the UK, and not recirculating here.....oh well never mind the Olympics will solve everything."
"Take your pick:
(from BBC website)
Danny Shaw
Home affairs correspondent, BBC News
Confused? You're entitled to be. On Monday Migrationwatch suggested a link between the influx of workers from Eastern Europe since 2004 and a rise in UK youth unemployment. 24 hours later, the National Institute for Economic and Social Research said immigration had had little or no impact on the number of jobless benefit claimants. Now the Migration Advisory Committee says there's an ""association"" between non-EU migration and job losses among those born in Britain. So who's right? It's possible they all are - because they all looked at slightly different things. But the Mac report is arguably the most persuasive because it draws on in-depth analysis and research - and it just makes sense. The effects of non-EU migration are most keenly felt in the economic bad times, it says, when vacancies are scarce, and in the short-term, before the labour market has time to adjust."
"And people lambash Japan for refusing to rely on immigrants.
We are culturally balkanising the UK via immigration also, the cost of that in the future will be enormous.
Bleak future for the UK."
ah honest, you mean there are some unscroupulous employers who would sooner employ cheap foreign labour rather than legimate minumum wage labour, what a bloody shock!
"Wow genuinely cannot believe that my post has been removed.
The gist was this,
Average UK Family costs: (per month)
Child care - £600-£1000
Mortage - £800
petrol - £150
+ food for the whole family _AT_ UK prices, say £320 a month.
That is a pretty high cost base.
An immigrant worker might not bring his family to the UK, he might leave them in their country of origin, which for the most part has a much smaller cost of living.
His wife may not need to work because of the high value of the cash that the immigrant worker can send home, so relatively fixed costs like childcare and mortgages become irrelevant. The cost to feed the family is significantly less.
Its easy to see how someone can operate and undercut a uk worker and still live happily.
The option of course for a UK Citizen is to move his entire family to a country with a poor standard of living, and then send his wages out to his family in that country. But this isnt as attractive and UK citizens shouldnt be forced to relocate their families abroad to be able to survive deflationary wage pressure."
"Response to ballist1x, 10 January 2012 2:22pm
ballist1x
""Expats dont go abroad to leach benefits""............except for the estimated 10,000 British expats living abroad still leaching sickness benefits from the UK taxpayer despite making a decision that they no longer want to live in the UK.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9004148/British-expats-claiming-50m-a-year-in-sickness-benefits.html
We can keep the discussion on those British expats who make no attempt to learn the language or integrate into the country that they decide to move too for another thread."
"Response to ballist1x, 10 January 2012 2:22pm
What do you mean by 'expats' here? I live in Nederland and all foreigners are considered to be expatriates and many work. Obviously if they are self-employed and offer services for which they can set their own rates then they have every right to undercut local service providers. That is how a free market works. If you wish to operate under a capitalist system you have to accept that prices will not continuously be set in stone. Obviously if you are working for someone else most people just accept the rate that the employer specifies. I don't understand why a foreigner would actively say to a recruiter - ""Actually, I will work for less"", when the objective is to make as much money as possible. Also, why is someone spending less than their post-tax pay a problem? What if they do not wish to incur debts?"
"Poles do attract other Poles and they all get a job, they seem to be a preferable commodity for gangmasters and employers.
I heard a lot of employers say that the Polish have created a lot more jobs by their coming to the UK. Whole sectors that were in the doldrums have found a new life. You rarely read that in the papers !
In the meantime other sectors in the economy (construction, finances) have stopped growing and made people redundant. The Poles are more often multi-skilled and in a whiff they just change sector. Tell me, which Brit thinks and goes that far? The Polish and other East Europeans have turned out to be the chameleons of the labour market, and they are liked for that. Just accept the fact that so many others aren't like that !
All these developmenents and changes cannot be compressed into a few data files that return the answer at the push of a button !!
Well, the Brits have their own options: Australia, Canada, USA, the rest of the EU and the own Commonwealth. Poles cannot go there so easily, so you 'll be safer in the sun..."
"Response to ShaneD, 10 January 2012 12:56pm
It is very difficult subject but and I'll throw this in as a ""devil's advocate"" comment:
s
Does a proportion of the immigrant come here and take lower paid jobs because they don't have the fall back of social security benefits to the same extent for the unemployed in their own countries , whereas here the indigenous population do?
I know that argument really only works when levels of unemployent are much lower than they are in this country at the moment but that was the situation 10 years ago when before the EU borders were thrown open to immigrant workers.
Only a thought and that is only one part of it I know."
"Response to DarkHarajuku, 10 January 2012 2:56pm
How is it being 'Balkanised'?
In cities which experience high migration such as London it is very likely that people of different nationalities will be working together in multiple companies. It is quite difficult to find a company based in the capital, even of small size, where all employees will be of the same nationality. Even if they are, it is fairly likely that they will be communicating with customers, suppliers, regulators etc. who are sometimes of a different nationality to them."
"Response to TheMaskedPedant, 10 January 2012 2:27pm
Is there supposed to be any meaning in your statement, or is being gnomic somehow cooler? In any case, I wonder why you do not explicate."
"Who'd have thunk it?
Next report is investigating:
What happens when you have 10 apples and you give 8 away?
Do you end up with: More apples, the same amount, or less apples?
I imagine the results of this report will be available in a few years."
"Response to willwordsmith, 10 January 2012 11:09am
Since the world began advances in technology has changed how we work, or don't. It also has made a massive difference to people's standard of living over the centuries, none more so than the last century.
If bricks still had to be hand made for instance; all carpentry was hand done without machinery to help; if the engine had never been invented."
"Response to No1bob, 10 January 2012 2:13pm
If those immigrants are not British citizens upon arrival then they are expatraites anyway, surely?"
IT'S THE EU MIGRANTS THAT ARE THE PROBLEM!
"Response to wotever, 10 January 2012 3:05pm
A pity Gordon Brown did not understand this."
Did it really need a committee?
"To be honest, I don't give a flying sh-t about this goody goody, oh its globalisation, we have to accept everyone to our country, when our youngsters CAN'T get a bloody job in this country that was fought for and built by our grandfathers.
Its utter bollaacks, look after OUR own first then look after others if we can.
Our children need jobs now, not immigrants who have never paid a bean into our system. Cheap labour from abroad keeps UK wage rates LOW period and the long term affect is negative for us as whole.
You may be brainwashed by people spouting off that cheap labour is good for the UK economy, good for who exactly? the minority who exploit it perhaps?"
"So, in a time when jobs are limited, allowing people from foreign countries to take the jobs which do exist means that those who live here already lose out?
Stone me."
"Immigration suits the affluent middle classes. They can buy cheaper strawberries, find cheaper cleaning ladies, and pay less for their house extensions. All without having to pass on their share of the increased national wealth.
Still, one day theyir own bosses wil twig that there are foreign teachers, doctors, dentists, solicitors, and journalists, who are all prepared to work for less, and suddenly we will hear the middle classes bleating about the erosion of national identity etc. etc."
"""We can keep the discussion on those British expats who make no attempt to learn the language or integrate into the country that they decide to move too for another thread.""
They arent claiming benefits from the country they reside in, is what i meant.
""This is a shocking increase and is yet more evidence that we need to reform the welfare system, so that money goes to those who really need it, not to well off ex pats living on the Costa Del Sol. ""
they are for the most part well off, they may claim £300 fuel allowance that they would have claimed when they lived in the UK despite living abroad. They were eligible when they were here too..otherwise they would not be eligible for it abroad...
Is that as bad as say...british child benefits being paid to immigrant workers, who's families are still located in their country of originl. Im staring right now at an article that states that:
Loophole, 36,000 claims in Poland where a parent lives in the UK for 1 year and pays UK tax can claim child benefits back as well as Child tax credits for children they have in their own country! Genius!
Its attarctive to work in the UK and keep a family in another country because: The UK pays (or did) £977 for the first child and £652 for the second, where poland pays £160 per child...
The recipricol agreement means that britons working in poland could only claim the £160 from warsaw...These are 2008 figures."
"Response to TheMaskedPedant, 10 January 2012 2:20pm
The Companies were online retailer's selling clothes and assessories, ie handbags shoes watch's etc another was a supplier to a major High Street Chain"
"Response to OneManIsAnIsland, 10 January 2012 3:35pm
So it only makes food cheaper for the affluent middle classes? Funny I've never seen two tier pricing in my local supermarket.
More vinegar sir?"
Most of the migrant workers, whether from east Europe or other parts of the world are doing the jobs which the natives refuse to take up! Cheap labour is always welcome by the capitalists to increase their profit. If people are migrating, the capitalists move their establishments to places where they can find cheap labour and raw materials! Globalisation is meant for optimising profits and not to solve the unemployment problem!
"Response to OneManIsAnIsland, 10 January 2012 3:35pm
Exactly,
its great until it happens to you personally!, he hee, what would our friends in the City say if a team of experts on £10 an hour was brought in from China or India to do their work, could never happen ! think again.
How far do you want it to go folks!"
It's because they turn up for work, work harder & longer, complain less & don't resent their employers for earning a profit off their backs. They don't do sickies & bugger off to Ibiza for a week during peak season.
"Response to giveusaclue, 10 January 2012 3:07pm

Yes and all our lives have been made immeasurably better for it.

If strawberries still had to be hand picked. Britain would still be full of feckless scroungers who thought those jobs were beneath them."
"So if all the migrants ""turn up for work, work harder & longer, complain less & don't resent their employers for earning a profit off their backs. They don't do sickies & bugger off to Ibiza for a week during peak season.""
Why are the countries they come from such crap holes?"
"'The idea that allowing millions of people in who could do unskilled labour wouldn't affect wages or job opportunities because to say so was racist and immigration has to be a good thing. Was the biggest load of idealistic ignorance ever.'
Not everyone claimed this: can one ever forget the spectacle of millionaire Billy Bragg reassuring the bruised electors of Barking that immigration was good because it reduced 'wage inflation'? Not his, fortunately, just the proles'."
"jailbird
10 January 2012 3:56PM
So if all the migrants ""turn up for work, work harder & longer, complain less & don't resent their employers for earning a profit off their backs. They don't do sickies & bugger off to Ibiza for a week during peak season.""
Why are the countries they come from such crap holes?

Why do you say hey come from crap holes? have you had a look around any of our cities recently? The UK has more than it's share of crap holes mate."
"Response to giveusaclue, 10 January 2012 3:42pm

Haven't you? Swing by Waitrose and lidl and compare the items bought - it's high-labour blueberries in Waitrose, cheap, low-labour biscuits in Lidl.
I can't get angry about immigrants themselves because, my goodness, they're a handsome bunch, and generally very polite also."
"The Conservative government wants it all ways; first it states that UK unemployed are out of work because they are better off on benefits, now they are (again) playing the immigrant card. (Divide & Rule Ploy No XXXXXXX)
UK unemployed can only be said to have missed out on jobs if enough jobs were available, if they applied for them and if the employer showed a preference for migrants."
"Response to remoteviewer, 10 January 2012 4:07pm
Okay.
So tell me this. Why do they head here in the millions?"
"Response to focus29, 10 January 2012 12:16pm


Not sure that is true. I think Commonwealth citizens can vote (which is where most non-EU migration to the UK is from). Also, some people who want to see a limit on migration at the bottom end of socciety also have similar motives to the immigrants, the desire to improve their lot (eg not have their wages driven down etc)."
"It is not a straight question of migrants taking UK jobs.
How about the UK outsourcing to the Far East?
How about companies moving production abroad for any small increase in profit?
How about money grabbing shareholder selling out and buyers closing factories down?
How about the Tories (including Tory Blair and Brown) wiping out industry?
How about the class system creating the them and us culture?
How about crap managers and unions?
How about the dumbing down of education?
How about the total lack of apprenticeships?
How about selling the countries assets to the Tories pals?
How about the allowing yobs to take over town centres?
How about getting dole for nothing?
Solve this lot and we maight have a chance?"
"Response to OneManIsAnIsland, 10 January 2012 3:35pm
Well, the 'affluent middle classes' you speak of have to compete with immigrants too. Foreigners like ourselves very often have similar skills to them. They are not that hard to acquire after all. The 'middle classes' are not unique. They are part of the labour market as well."
"Response to jailbird, 10 January 2012 4:15pm
Because you get paid more to do less."
"Response to jailbird, 10 January 2012 4:15pm
Depends which immigrants your talking about? Some come here to bleed the country dry & breed for benefits. I'm talking about those who come here because they get paid 5 times more than their own countries. Most of them are from the former Soviet block"
"A few years ago my nephew worked in construction as a labourer he was paid off with several others and his employer took on Polish workers at minimum wage. My nephew then had to sign on as unemployed, how did this not add to the unemployment figures?
If a job needs to be done then they need to find workers to do the job, if a person from another country is willing to do the job for less it forces down wages, there is then less money in the ecconomy especially as many of these workers send some of the money earned abroad. This is not of benefit to the UK ecconomy I am not racist but am a strong advocate of decent wages for everyone, minimum wages are all and well but that should not be a guideline it should be a starting point. Often the lowest paid in society have to be subsidised by the UK government just to survive. People need a living wage from which they can pay the basics to survive, child poverty is rising we are told we are in this current crisis together yet the rich are still getting richer and the poor and middle classes are being squeezed into oblivion."
"I assume the ConLib con coalition is about to release the latest unemployment figures.
Couldn't have a report that states
Research by economic committee suggests link between bankers greed and unemployment..."
"Similar ""studies"" I read in my country, theat have been also contradictionary depending on the whom they work for.
I think it is quite easy and obvious:
If companies cannot employ 500 special engineers, because these are not available on the local market (e.g. IT staff from India), it seems beneficial if those specialists immigrate to save all the jobs created around these functions (on the long term, however, the government should ensure education-system to provide ""own"" staff).
In all other cases immigrants, by accepting lower salaries or other reasons, take jobs that, as a result are not available to local people (generally speaking, Britans in this case).
An upon eccomonic flat, the companies, who benefited from low wages, ""pour all these people"" before the doors of the social system authorities.
I dont think we need sophisticated, expensive studies to understand that."
"Response to OneManIsAnIsland, 10 January 2012 3:35pm
Don't know about the strawberries but immigrants or more likely the sons and daughters of migrants are already well established in the professional classes - some more than others. The NHS would be dire straits if that was not the case and I rather think it has more to do with years of training rather than money that keeps the white community from snapping all the vacancies up.
As for national identity I doubt if there is anyone English born person who can point to an ancestry that does not include Scots, Irish, Welsh and other nationalities among the blood cells.
I once read that people born in South Yorkshire with ancestors having lived there since the middle of the 19th Century have a 10% chance of having a black person among their ancestors. That possibility came from the fact that many freed slaves gravitated to those areas with plenty of work for the unskilled."
"It is common sense that foreign worker will take jobs that our own population could take, should take. The more the population of this small island grows the worse things are going to get. More unemployment, more poverty, lack of housing and space, eventually fights over food & water its just a matter of time.
Stop immigration NOW.
I was desperate for employment, so I went to a agency, for a non skilled job. They told me there was nothing at the moment, so I asked them to put me on the waiting list. No point they said they had plenty of applicants, all immigrant workers there was no need for me. Great.
Then I have to listen to all that RUBBISH (spin) about foreign workers not affecting unemployment, in fact I get told how GOOD it is for me. BullS."
"Response to Alfindalawi, 10 January 2012 4:24pm


Yet the foreigners in this case are usually middle-class themselves and often have attended the same UK universities. I don't see the British middle-class calling for the limits on foreign student numbers to be removed, even in the Guardian. Also this report at least suggests migration drives wages up at the top not down."
"What a load of crap this research is ! Perhaps it's the immigrants' fault that they come to the UK well educated, diligent, with very good work ethic, often knowing English better than the natives, and then take all those lucrative jobs the British cannot do themselves. How many British are proficient in another language to such a level that they could work in another country? Perhaps, no-one has thought that employers are taking on immigrants because they are actually better than British, have higher qualifications, work harder etc.
All the talk about immigrants from outside the EU coming to the UK for benefits is also completely wrong, as legally a person from outside the EU is not able to access ANY of the benefits until they have achieved the status of settlement, and this comes after working for 5 years in the UK, paying taxes to sustain all those natives who are too lazy to bother to work, without getting anything in return.
Finally, talking about Poles is also completely wrong, as this article concerns ""Non-EU immigration"", and Poland is in the EU since 2004, so until the UK remains part of the EU and the freedom of movement is still on the books, there is nothing the UK can do about this."
"Response to rosie401, 10 January 2012 4:39pm
Is that not yet another form of race discrimination, to refuse you a place on the register in favour of people from another country? It is a knife that cuts two ways but rarely recognised."
"Response to Alfindalawi, 10 January 2012 4:26pm
Your reply isn't worth an explanation as to why your argument is flawed."
"Response to remoteviewer, 10 January 2012 4:28pm
I agree.
it is the social migrants that is to blame"
"Response to itsthewilf, 10 January 2012 3:27pm
Spot on, couldn't agree more."
"""The finding directly challenges the established academic consensus that there has been little or no direct link between immigration and employment levels in Britain. It flatly contradicts research from the National Institute of Economic and Social Research published on Monday, which found that even in the recent recession there was no direct impact.""

Sadly, a basic flaw in research conducted by the NERSR concerns the methodology:
""To analyse the impact of migration on the labour market, the Institute's researchers compared the overseas nationals who were allocated national insurance numbers in an area with the number of people claiming the dole locally.""

Unfortunately, the employment market is not as straightforward as would be suggested by the allocation of National Insurance Numbers, and implicitly ignores those workers who are here illegally, where the employer fails to conduct relevant elligibility checks,where the migrant worker is prepared to take a risk in working, outside of their visa conditions if they have a visa."
"Response to scotsgal, 10 January 2012 4:30pm
The simple fact is that many people around the world can do the unskilled jobs and are prepared to do so for far lower rates of pay than those in the UK. As the required skill level rises, the competition for jobs (both domestic and foreign) falls and employers have to pay higher wages. Therefore, the key to decent wages in the UK, given the relatively high cost of living here, is training, not the minimum wage.
If this Government ended the national obsession with academia and channelled the money instead into apprenticeships and technical education (as they do in Germany), the UK would have a much more employable domestic workforce.
At present, the 50% of school leavers with few, if any, qualifications are virtually unemployable unless they are prepared to accept slave wages because there will always be someone in a country with a lower cost of living willing and able to do their job for less."
"Response to itsthewilf, 10 January 2012 3:27pm

I cant agree more cheap labour means people cant afford to pay the bills, the only people who are benefit from this are the fat cats, cheap employment from abroad means they can ask for bigger bonuses due to the increase in profits. I personally think that its time to tie the people at the tops wages to the lowest paid in the company. The thing is that often the people employed by these companies cant afford the product and nor can the people who were paid off in the name of profits."
immigration can be beneficial but the open borders policy with the EU and the rest of the world has proven to be a failure.
"Response to xpeters, 10 January 2012 4:50pm
A wage of 12k pa is not a decent wage and ultimately will lead for the government to subsidise that person and their family. How can the deficit be bought down when the government has to subsidise these low wages. It should be upto the employer to give the employee a living wage."
"The funny thing is that while people keep complaining about immigration, they don't realise that many of their basic needs are satisfied exactly because the immigrants are happy to come and work in the UK. Earning huge amounts of case here is a myth due to very high prices for accommodation etc., so in fact, these people come here simply because they are happy to put in a good effort and get some deservedly decent wage for it. BTW, the only legal way to employ a skilled person from outside the Uk is to advertise the job on the open market, and only when there are no suitable candidates from the UK and the EU, offer it to someone from outside the EU. This means that those who come here for skilled employment are head and shoulders above their British and European counterparts.
If all the foreigners were to leave the UK now, who would teach in schools and universities, who would do world-leading medical operations, who would work in IT and finance? And the list goes on and on..."
"Response to jailbird, 10 January 2012 4:45pm
Actually, Alfindalawi is spot on.
If I come to the UK I can earn three times what I could earn in Poland as a builder. I spend as little as possible on food and rent and send all my spare money back home where my family can live in comfort. After a few years, my home in Poland is paid for and I have enough saved to live there comfortably without breaking my back every day, so I go home. The trouble is that all my neighbours see my house and they want one, so they come to the UK and do the same. Meanwhile, there are no building jobs for Brits.
But, don't worry, eventually the roles will reverse. As the Polish people become richer, their cost of living will rise and, at some point, wages will be higher there than here. Then, all the unemployed Brits can go to Poland and take Polish jobs because Polish wages will be higher than those in the UK. The Brits can save up and send money home to their families in the UK and encourage more Brits to leave the UK to take Polish jobs. The only problem is that it'll probably take another 30 or 40 years for the roles to reverse."
"Response to GJMW, 10 January 2012 4:08pm
Think you are being a bit selective there."
No shit!
"""jailbird
10 January 2012 3:56PM
So if all the migrants ""turn up for work, work harder & longer, complain less & don't resent their employers for earning a profit off their backs. They don't do sickies & bugger off to Ibiza for a week during peak season.""
Why are the countries they come from such crap holes?""
Re Poland?
Well, it could be something to do with WW2...
Yes the reason we went to WW2, the invasion of Poland..Except...we never actually got to warsaw..we never helped them to remain independant. We were simply happy that Germany had been defeated and did not want another war against Russia..So we abandoned the Polish to the Soviet regime, it became part of the Soviet Bloc.
The Polish people did not want to be part of a communist led state. They fought bravely with their Allied compatriots under the impression that they were fighting for a free Briton and free Poland...
Then we left them all to sink. These countries, the Ukraine, Poland etc were plundered by the russians and are only now finding their feet again."
"Response to scotsgal, 10 January 2012 5:00pm
Or the employer moves his business to a country where £12k is a living wage and the UK loses yet another job, which increases the benefits paid out by the Government to the now ex-worker and his family.
Those who will do best in the job market are those who are mobile. If you're prepared to move abroad away from friends and family, as I have done, you gain experience, new skills and higher wages and demonstrate to future employers that you are prepared to go the extra mile to secure a job. In contrast, you seem to think that employers should be queueing up to hire unemployable Brits and bending over backwards to featherbed their existence.
Having sat on the other side of the table as an employer and heard applicants moan about the start time being too early and the commute (20 to 30 minutes on a bus) being too long, I welcome keen immigrants who are prepared to work hard for long hours without whining."
"Response to Charlottejane, 10 January 2012 10:54am
Charlottejane is spot on. If you read the utopian and dystopian visions of the future penned by various authors over the years, they either forsee a time of prosperity and leisure, with all enjoying the fruits of mechanisation of labour, or dark, strife-torn societies where those who live well do so at the cost of military level security and severe suppression of an impoverished and wretched underclass. Sadly the utopianists forgot that the mechanisms are owned by somebody, and those who own them see no reason why they should employ any more people than they have to, or provide any kind of income for the rest. The people who have jobs are more intent on maximising their income than working fewer hours, even though this means paying higher taxes to keep alive (just about) those who don't. Any rational analysis would suggest that it makes far more sense to share the work around, and without doing that (or taking everything into public ownership, which looks fairly unlikely) I can't see how the dystopian outcome can be avoided.
One way individuals could do this, of course, is to save much more of their income in pension funds. That way they could retire younger (or at least not older than now) and let somebody younger have the job. For most people, more time with their family or an earlier retirement would bring far more happiness than changing the car more frequently or having more expensive holidays or televisions."
"Response to ballist1x, 10 January 2012 5:11pm
So it's our fault.. I thought it might be...
Ahahhahahahahhahahahhahahhahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahaa..."
"Response to xpeters, 10 January 2012 5:15pm
A person who is on a low income cant afford to move out of the area or afford to commute long distances especially with the rise in the cost of fares. This in turn creates blackspots like Liverpool in the Thatcher era these areas spiral down and the people become poorer and then end up rioting. When you have family moving can be pretty close to impossible, I worked for over 17 years in factories and the only long time illness I had was caused by work injuries once for falling down greasy stairs and another when I had a repetitive strain injury caused by constant lifting. It is easy to make blanket comments about the nationals in the UK being lazy but there are many who work there asses off."
"'According to an explosive report from the Tory government's own expert advisers...'
'All dark skinned immigrants are to blame'. NO. The EU is to blame. Get out of it."
"Response to MidnightTrainToEgham, 10 January 2012 11:42am

So you have finally cured your constipation :) you finally let it go, and it must feel good.
Combining two sentences where you say that there is similar number of immigrants to lazy natives you scored twice.
Daily mail loving crowd will click on your Recommends and you may even get diarrhoea.
No way, it's probably from the foreign picked strawberries I ate earlier, you may say to yourself.
The only foreign thing you like is the foreign holiday.
Obviously, you need to grow something to be able to understand things around you."
"I've had periods of unemployment, and I've missed out on good jobs that have gone to other people. If I found out that the person who got the job was less competent at it than me, I would be seriously miffed. If I found out that they had been born further from the workplace than me, I would regard that as irrelevant. I only deserve the job if I am the best person for it, of those who applied. An immigrant doesn't have contacts and favours to call in; he or she gets a job on merit. For 'commodity' jobs, the sort that most people could do, they may well be prepared to work for less than some locals. All that tells me is that they need the job more. Why shouldn't they get it?
Every country in the world is populated by people who moved there for a better life, or their descendants."
"Response to andrewire, 10 January 2012 12:04pm
EU is one common market and it would be illegal to compile reports on this.It would be the same as putting a large ad in front of Guinness in Dublin and saying , ""Guinness is a small company within the group of ENGLISH company called Diageo"".
Polish have the right to access the common market as the uk based hedge funds access the polish market by buying almost all of their companies for peanuts after the 1989.
It is so sad to see that people hate the polish so much.
My wife is polish and I still get well with her :)"
"Another example of how screwed up this country is.
Margaret Thatcher should be rotting in jail for what she did to this country.
And what we do? Make a film about her..."
"Response to Ilovemisty, 10 January 2012 4:40pm
Why would a greater influx of potential employees drive wages up at the top? Surely executive pay is determimned more by whatever proportion of total profit is allocated to their personal compensation and top-line income overall."
"Response to Contramob, 10 January 2012 5:31pm
If we go along the lines of working for less we come to a point where it is a race to the bottom. What if the situation was one where you lost your job because someone was willing to do it for less? How would you feel then? It seems that we are told it is ok for this situation to happen to the less skilled but if it is good enough for them then it should be good enough for everyone even the fat cats. The problem is its one rule for one and a different rule for another. There will always be people in society who are unskilled this does not make them any less important to society just because a person cleans for a living does not mean they are any less entitled to a living wage. Businesses and society need these people as much as they need the accountant."
"Response to leftHypocrisy, 10 January 2012 4:55pm
What open borders policy with the rest of the world?"
Thank you CIF-ers for not falling into the anti-immigrant trap. After reading the article I was dreading the comments section - but the first posts on the page were great. (I didn't read anymore comments, just in case).
"Response to Missundaztood, 10 January 2012 5:25pm
The Westerners should really start being braver and say these things to our faces if that is their sentiment."
I dislike this generalistation of the phrase 'non-EU'. I would personally like to know who is being reffered to....are Americans, Canadians and Australians include in these figures?? why is it that people never seem to think about migrants from prosperous countries when they coin the term 'non-EU'.....just another attempt to scare the hell out of the working class and encourage hate for those outside of the wonderful European Union it seems....
"Response to Ranald, 10 January 2012 12:36pm
I suppose I should clarify (as a heterosexual woman) that I can't imagine many British women would prefer to take these types of jobs and work under such conditions."
Daft as muck. I don't know how many factory floors, toilet blocks and kitchens they've spent the last few years working in, but speaking from my experience, there aren't really any non-EU migrants. Speak to any black first-generation, vast majority came before the rules were tightened in the early seventies. EU migration, on the other hand, must be depressing wages due to the shear quantities of EU migrants everywhere - seems like half or more of employees, some places it's nearly everyone. But the minimum wage counteracts that: outside the South, even the periods in between the recessions see a lot of competition for jobs, so the legal minimum wage is always higher than what market forces would set it at. In the South, i guess EU migrants keep pay nearer the minimum wage. The only non-EU migrants working here i know of are Chinese architects, and architects' wages are hardly paltry, so a bit of downward pressure wouldn't hurt them.
"_AT_esceptico

well if we had say a police force with no ethnic element at all then it would be a skewed racial makeup and clearly both not fair and not good either, obviously an extreme
in many departments i have worked in over half the staff were directly/indirectly from india, this makeup had occurred by deliberate policy and i think breaks the law, but of course is hidden within the overall stats of the companies involved"
"Response to lordsandwich, 10 January 2012 12:46pm

Hmmm, not quite.
IT graduates had the bleakest prospects, with an unemployment rate of 16% among their number. Graduates who had studied engineering, media studies or architecture also had a jobless rate above 10%.
And I'd be willing to bet that not quite all of those 84% not unemployed are working in IT."
"Response to jailbird, 10 January 2012 3:56pm
..."" Why are the countries they come from such crapholes?""
I migrated to Britain 28 years ago ( apparently you didn't have enough well trained people to work with disabled children).
If I had a penny for every time I was asked by a Briton "" Why did you come here from such a beautiful country?"", I would spend my millions building a few Youth Clubs."
"Response to nocolours, 10 January 2012 11:58am

In an area I know well - the IT industry - I can attest to the fact that working overtime (and lots of it) is essential if you want to keep your job and especially to get some promotion. And I can promise you that people today are doing the work (probably to a lower quality level) that two or even three were working at ten years ago. People who leave are not replaced, and the work just has to get done somehow. And many of my friends report the same thing in several different industries."
"Isn't this stating the bleedin obvious?
When you introduce millions more people to a country within a 5-6 year period surely the number of a jobs available to the indigenous population drops accordingly. Does it need Einstein to surmise this?"
"Response to scotsgal, 10 January 2012 5:24pm
Yes. You are correct in that making the transition from working in that area to working in a completely different part of the country/continent can be difficult to finance, especially if you have dependents.
Another thing that nobody seems to have commented on is the different demographic of foreign-born workers to UK workers. Very often you simply aren't comparing like for like. Migrant populations tend to be younger, more often single and more often male-dominated than settled populations. Also, people who migrate tend to specifically be people who place more emphasis on things like careers, work and money than settled people do. Therefore whilst immigrants may on average be more industrious and ambitious than British people, it doesn't mean that people of x nationality are more industrious and ambitious than British people. The same principle would apply if you were examining another nation apart from the United Kingdom.
In the cases of many foreign workers they do not have dependents. For example, in my case I do not have have a husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend or children. So unlike many of my Western counterparts my outgoings on food/rental costs etc. can be minimized. Also as a single man it would be easier both financially and emotionally for me to say, move from where I am (Amsterdam) to accept a job in say, Copenhagen within a matter of days (including packaging my belongings etc.). For a settled Westerner who has lived in the same place for most of his/her life, has his/her entire social circle in that place, and who has a partner and children the decision to make that kind of move will involve far more thinking, far more emotional considerations and arguably more financial expenses if there are more people to accompany him/her. One of the biggest advantages we have in the labour market compared to our settled counterparts is mobility."
"Response to plark, 10 January 2012 5:57pm

Perhaps this is due to the fact that we are importing thousands of IT workers from India and paying them several 100s of pounds a day wages. I work in IT I know this for fact."
The only English people I've heard complaining about E.U. immigration are people with non E.U. immigrant parents. I'm not trying to stir here, I'm just stating a fact. I don't really understand it. Surely, if you're a child or grandchild of immigrants, you would have sympathy with them. Stop complaining about Eastern Europeans. It's a load of nonsense. Everyone in the E.U. has the freedom to go anywhere within it. What's wrong with that? Why don't you ask the Spanish how they feel about the British in the Costa Del Sol? I'm sure they love ignorant thugs who don't speak Spanish littering the coastline.
"Response to maiaH, 10 January 2012 5:56pm
The problem is it isn't possible to live on the minimum wage for anyone with a family and a house in the UK. It isn't really possible for a single man to live on the minimum wage and live anywhere but a hovel.
Perhaps if you're living with 10 other migrants in one house and sharing the rent and sending all your other money back to Poland you'd be happy on minimum wage.
I have a feeling if there wasn't large scale immigration the minimum wage would be up round the £8 an hour mark by now,"
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 6:14pm
Actually, it would depend on the age group of these millions of people and also their consumer behaviour. If they all suddenly spent massively on a kind of service/item that was previously a very niche area then the number of jobs in that sector would jump massively leading to a potential hiring spree."
"Response to aims22, 10 January 2012 6:17pm
These people you refer to with parents from outside the EU probably do not like the competition. Surely they also do not like competition from non-EU nationals either?"
"Response to xpeters, 10 January 2012 5:15pm
You will do best if you are mobile?
IT Jobs are being outsourced to India. Do you want everyone to get on their bike to Mumbai? Is that ""mobile"" enough for you?"
"Response to Alfindalawi, 10 January 2012 6:19pm
But obviously they arn't going to spend massively because they have no money. They are sharing a room with 10 other flatulent men, earning minimum wage and sending as much as they can back to their families in Poland."
So, Guardian, why do you illustrate this article with a woman from Eastern Europe who, most likely, is a EU citizen and has every right to be here? Afraid of showing a any non-whites, perchance? Your PC lies and distortions are sickening.
"Response to techno13, 10 January 2012 5:53pm
A non-EU national is just someone who is a national of a country that is not in the European Union. Obviously the range of migrants (legal and illegal) from these nations can be hugely divers, ranging from impoverished opportunists who do not necessarily have legal channels available to them by which they can legally migrate, to tycoons from the likes of the Gulf States, the Indian Subcontinent and Arabia. Of course American, Canadian and Australian citizens will be included in those figures, since people from those nations would all be non-EU nationals."
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 6:23pm
But this is how global capitalism works. Jobs can be moved around. People can move to where capital is. So people who are globally mobile are likely to bemost adaptable. Of course people will manage by staying in the same nation all their lives, but if you really want to make most use of all opportunities available to you then looking at as many nations employment markets as is possible would be more beneficial."
"Response to IReadTheArticle, 10 January 2012 12:26pm
The report says exactly the opposite:

I haven't yet finished reading the entire text so it's not clear why this research contradicts not only the NIESR findings but a nearly unanimous body of literature on the subject which finds little or no impact. But I suspect that's largely beside the point for the Coalition. They've got a massive perception problem. Dave needs desperately to divert blame away from his BFFs in the City, and immigrants will due nicely - regardless of how they affect unemployment. Unfortunately this report, if anybody bothers to read the fine print, isn't going to help him much. The correlation between immigration and unemployment only holds during periods of recession. During boom times, the study finds none. So essentially what it suggests is that if the bankers hadn't ballsed up the economy, there would be no need to restrict immigration on labour market grounds.
But few will bother. The Daily Mail has already neatly cut out the correlation with recession in its triumphant report."
"in reading some of the comments here, you can see why we are in such a mess with Immigration. For every 100 foreign workers, we lose nearly 25% in British jobs.
Doesn't it make you feel good? Thanks Labour!"
"Response to Alfindalawi, 10 January 2012 6:31pm
True, but unfortunately we're living in the one of the few countries where it's worth having a job. Sure we could move to any country in Eastern Europe or the Indian subcontinent but we'd be earning 10 times less than we do here so what's the incentive?"
"Response to Charlottejane, 10 January 2012 10:54am
But hey, let's not let that get in the way of blaming the immigrants, especially the ones who pay us eye-watering fees to study at our top universities- the only thing we excel at in the UK, at least for a little bit longer.
Dont let that get in the way of our own children who cannot afford the eye watering fees.As for the 'immigrants' who study here you mean the sons and daughters of dictators and mid east potentates.Doubtful if any of them are exactly suffering financial burdens.F##k em"
"Response to goodbyelizajane, 10 January 2012 6:32pm
No, there is obviously a correlation during boom times - youth unemployment started skyrocketing back in 2004 - curiously enough the same year hundreds of thousands of east europeans arrived. Coincidence? I dunno."
"Response to itsthewilf, 10 January 2012 3:27pm
Agree up to a point, well 90% probably but what is your solution to the simple fact that most young people today simply refuse to work at anything they consider beneath them and are utterly unprepared to work their way up at anything?
Their expectations will never be met even if we closed the entire borders.
Most kids today have had it too good and our Grandfathers that you hold in high esteem would look at most of their work ethic in disgust !"
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 6:26pm
It is likely that their priority is to save, but wouldn't that be the case with most immigrants all round the world. They may be earning minimum wage temporarily but many of these men have experience in other types of work in Poland as well as university level educational qualifications. They do not necessarily need to be doing the same job indefinitely. Just because their initial prorioty is to save does not mean that their spending behaviour will not change if and when they command a higher income."
"Response to Londoneratlarge, 10 January 2012 6:29pm
But many non-EU nationals currently in the UK are pale-skinned white people. Why does it need to be illustrated with a non-pale person?"
"Response to tiredofwhiners, 10 January 2012 6:38pm
This beloved theory that ""the youngsters/workshy/daily mail epithet"" don't want work is a little strange.
Cast your mind back to 2002. That's right, just before the immigration boom. No mass unemployment right? And somehow, all the work that needed doing in the UK got done didn't it? With no mass immigration.
Now unless the ""youth"" have totally changed character within 8 years, your theory has just been flushed down the nearest toilet.
When you talk these things through they come a little clearer don't they."
"A number of people have asked why the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) says EU immigration has had no impact on employment while the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) says that immigration has had an effect. This appears, in the absence of the full reports, to be because of the defective NIESR methodology. Basically, in order to analyse the impact of migration on the labour market, the NIERS compared the overseas nationals who were allocated national insurance numbers in an area with the number of people claiming the dole locally. Therefore, they only looked at individual local situations without looking at the overall UK picture. But the individual regional picture is quite different to the aggregate national situation.
Most jobs are created in London and the south east and anyone who lives in these areas can see they are substantially filled by immigrant labour – both EU and non-EU. The NIESR, by focusing on regions, excludes the possibility of British people who are unemployed in one region moving to another – probably in the south east – where there are jobs. (But then this might seem pointless if the job has been taken by immigrant workers.)
If employment policy were rational the unemployed of say Wales or Lancashire would be encouraged or compelled to move to the regions where there is work. Also, employers would be encouraged or compelled to employ British workers first.
Also, the MAC only looked at non-EU immigration - on the basis that the government cannot control EU immigration. That does not mean that, if the MAC did look at the impact of EU immigration, it would not come to the same conclusion as with non-EU immigration."
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 6:14pm
Careful, you'll get flamed for that around here..."
"Response to rosie401, 10 January 2012 4:39pm

Sorry to hear that, but if you have no, or very limited skill set then you've no chance and it doesn't matter if there are immigrants or not. The world needs relatively few unskilled people in the developed world and you'll have noticed that many industries in the 50's which were entirely manual labour are now requiring technical skills in abundance.
There are a lot more people with higher qualifications and thats nobody's fault - its called progress.
Expecting to get a job when you have nothing to offer and there are already a few hundred thousand better qualified folks, is optimism at its best, and unrealistic in the extreme.
Get some (better) qualifications and you might have a chance. Without them, none."
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 6:34pm
It would depend on the kind of job you were doing and also the purchasing power of your income in that country, so it would not mean that your standard of living would be 10 times poorer (though of course it is difficult to quantify standard of living in such a way).
You have a situation where wages are still relatively high in the UK compared to other nations on the planet. You either have to accept that you are part of a free market and that there are numerous people around the world who have similar skills, or start specifying that each job must have a specific 'minimum wage' applicable to it. Of course were this to happen many products currently sold to UK consumers would increase in value in order for businesses to maintain their profit margins. And then another segment of society might be peeved given the increase in their expenditure in order to maintian the same level of consumption."
"Response to savitaalexander, 10 January 2012 11:44am
Respectfully you do need to leave your sheltered environment and take a trip down to the strawberry fields of East Anglia. I suppose you will no less modesty there than on the beach at Brighton. You will find lots of young women from all backgrounds and all nationalities working their butts off for a few pounds a hour."
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 6:42pm
Still doesn't explain the FACT that kids today will not take manual jobs - maybe they have been brainwashed by 10 years of labour education system creating an entitlement culture. I have no idea.
What I do know if that they are lazy at the moment and would not even try to get a manual job to pay bills - the fact that there are immigrants here would make no difference at all IMO.
I think you're deluded if you think that banning immigration would make the work shy youth of today take the jobs that are currently done by immigrants.
Look what happened in Arizona and the Southern US states when they banned immigrants from working - crops rotted in the fields and jobs went unfilled. And thats a country with a stronger work ethic. God help us here if the Kevins and Kylies have to get out of bed early to work."
"Response to tiredofwhiners, 10 January 2012 6:46pm
Well it obviously does make a difference whether there are immigrants because back in 2002 there was no unemployment was there. Whereas now 8 years later and a million or two immigrants later there's 3 million unemployed. It's pretty stark that immigrants have made a difference isn't it.
Are you telling me that if there were 2 million fewer immigrants in country there wouldn't be more jobs?"
"Response to tiredofwhiners, 10 January 2012 6:53pm
Hold on a minute - my argument was that back in 2002 somehow all the work that needed doing in the UK got done. Without the benefit of mass immigration. Y'follow? So where have you come up with this theory that ""the young won't work""? They worked perfectly well 8 years ago - have they all somehow changed beyond all recognition within 8 years?"
"Response to Alfindalawi, 10 January 2012 6:48pm

Wages relatively high? Can you point out another industrialised Western nation that has to have the wages of millions of workers subsidised by the state?
The UK is a low wage economy, a concept Tony Blair was proud to have a hand in creating. To keep wages down you have to have high unemployment , Blair would be proud of Cameron for doing his bit to keep wages down."
"Response to WinstonDunkirk, 10 January 2012 11:26am
""If only 23 of the migrants are displacing British workers, then the other 77 of them must be on the dole!""
Not so.
Some will not be of working age.
Babies, children and pensioners etc.
Many migrants are in fact British pensioners returning from Spain etc. where
(because of the strong Euro (believe it or not)) they cannot afford to live anymore.
The ""dole"" or job seekers allowance is subject to strict rules -
you just cannot come into the UK and claim it.
The availability of willing workers (immigrants) to do fruit and vegetable processing and picking
work(etc.) has created vast numbers of jobs - that Brits were not willing to do.
This is well documented and visible to anyone who cares to travel around East Anglia,
Worcestershire etc."
"Response to RichJames, 10 January 2012 12:13pm
""It sounds like the government-appointed committee are trying to soften the public up for curbs on non-European migrants.""
Wake up - there are massive curbs on non-European migrants already."
"Response to optimist99, 10 January 2012 7:04pm
""The ""dole"" or job seekers allowance is subject to strict rules -
you just cannot come into the UK and claim it.""
Actually you can - initially Britain placed a block in immigrants claiming dole before 12 months but that's been abolished now. If you have an EU passport you can claim dole in the UK.
You say ""brits were not willing to fruit pick"". Can you tell me who picked the fruit pre-2003? Somehow all the fruit got picked and it wasn't immigrants picking it was it? It was..yep..those pesky british people.
How do I know the fruit got picked? The fruit farms are still all there arn't they? If no-one picked the fruit pre-2003 and the immigration boom there would be no fruit farms in the UK."
"'Metcalf says 160,000 British-born workers have been displaced by non-EU migrants since 2005. But he added that there was no evidence that European immigration, including Polish, had led to fewer British workers being employed.'
Absolute nonsense. We have an EU open-door immigration policy. The Tories are showing their true colours with this sham of a 'report'. They are blatantly and shamelessly attacking and blaming immigrants with dark skin for the state of the UK's unemployment figures. The EU immigration is TOTALLY to blame for the rise of unemployment here. The Tories know they can do sod all about EU immigration, so they're trying to blame it all on dark skinned immigrants. Typical racists, Daily Mail Tories.
Does anyone even fall for this trash?
'There was no evidence that European immigration, including Polish, had led to fewer British workers being employed'.
I mean come on. Really? Is anyone believing this blatant pack of lies? We all live here, we know exactly what the problem is."
"Response to ballist1x, 10 January 2012 1:09pm
""Thats why the 'ex pats' argument is always flawed. Generally english ex pats moving abroad take more wealth than they remove from their host economy. Sadly the immigrants who tend to move to england en mass will only a, take jobs, b, become a drain socially, be that in NHS costs or otherwise.""
So you are saying that the only people who leave the UK are pensioners?
Who enrich their host country by spending their UK pensions there (while
not spending their pensions in the UK and hence impoverishing the UK)?
And if they are pensioners in Spain, for example, are not a drain on the Spanish NHS?
And, immigrants to the UK - take jobs that would otherwise be done by the Brits?
(Like picking cauliflowers in Lincolnshire).
And are a drain socially in NHS costs (despite being from the healthiest cohort in society)?
Some quite serious flaws in this argument.
Many Brits move abroad to work - the valuable and highly qualified (hundreds of thousands in
Germany alone).
That's what the UK should worry about."
"The first paragraph says ""for every extra 100 non-European migrants who come to Britain, 23 fewer British residents are employed"".
Then the report is quoted as saying: ""But this possible displacement should not be assumed to last forever: those migrants who have been in the UK for over five years are not associated with displacement of British-born workers.""
OK, so we have British residents on the one hand, and British-born workers on the other. They are not in any conceivable way the same thing, even if there is huge overlap.
Plus, ""migrants who have been in the UK for over five years"" would pretty much qualify for Indefinite Leave to Remain under current immigration law, meaning that the soon come to form part of the ""British residents"" being presumably displaced by these ""non-Europeans"".
Language needs to be a bit clearer if a debate is to be had."
"Response to DoctorSyn1, 10 January 2012 1:12pm
Try Germany and get work via Germany agencies or directly.
This is where things go wrong in the EU because of language problems.
But there are huge numbers of vacancies for CNC turners in Germany...
See:
or try this: http://jobboerse.arbeitsagentur.de/
key in - Arbeit and next box - cnc"
"Response to peterainbow, 10 January 2012 1:58pm
""absolute tosh, where you get your degree from has become increasingly important and distance learning degrees ( not cheap either ) won't cut it, this is after all the same model from the US we are following...""
For a first degree - maybe.
Thereafter (once you've proved you can learn without being spoonfed)
distance learning trumps a masters.
You just need to find the right distance teaching course.
Many of them run rings round static masters degrees.
And some US specialised distance learning courses trump anything available
elsewhere in the world."
"""The official research confirms that migration has had no impact on average wages but says that it has increased wages at the top of the wage scale but has lowered wage rates at the bottom"".
So when we're talking about lowered wage rates at the bottom we're talking everyone from line manager down then
As I see it we have that shite minimum wage and then everyone on a wage four or five pounds above that except for those on 25k and more..
And as for the work shy comments put up by those who 'have a different opinion to me', well, you seem to think that its a life on benefits that people desire, its not, its that a life waged is so shit
Pay your poll tax on your rented home, pay your rent to, uhm parasitic cunty cunt landlords that can charge what they like as their loved by the Government, shit, half of them are landlords... in London thats £150-200 a week.....
Why the fuck would anybody, in the interests of self preservation take the shitty arsed menial low paid job just to please the chattering classes, you want to work 40-50 hrs a week for £40-50 a week in your pocket? And thats if you don't have a disaster or some other suprise cost.


Its coming......."
"Response to Alfindalawi, 10 January 2012 3:03pm
I also live in the nederlands. If you want an example of Balkanised just go to Rotterdam and see some of the neighborhoods there. Still not as bad as the UK but a starting point for you.
I think you are living in a dream word, yes people may work with one another via necessity but the society in which we live is becoming increasingly fractured.
The Japanese have the right idea, they respect their own culture first and foremost - the way it SHOULD BE."
"Given that the vast majority of Guardian readers are pro European and have been extolling the benefits of membership of the EU for many years they are no doubt aware and accept that membership of the EU entitles all of its citizens to freedom of movement/the right to take up employment/residence within any EU country.
As for immigration from outside the EU I am sure they also accept that every person concerned is a genuine asylum seeker in fear of their life or alternatively somebody with a skill that the UK desperately requires and which is in short supply here."
"Response to optimist99, 10 January 2012 7:07pm
Are you listening to yourself optimist what planet did you come from? Since when should migration be a free for all?"
"If we can stop the Political and Harassing attacks on people who comment it would be a good thing.
The replacement of UK staff by Non-EU people has been in existence certainly to my experience for 10 to 15 years ... initially by US Companies using Staff Transfer rules to move staff in ... in droves with a minder because the ability to read and write English is required to read Manuals but it restricts the Non-EUs to email so you have as I did some 3 years ... people sat in an Asian Team with an Asian Manager and the staff would email me very aggressively from feet away but would speak to an Indian Contractor behind me about things I was responsible for who would then speak to me.
I saw this in a Company in Birmingham and also in Leeds.
The use of Non-EU staff is also prevalent in Germany where staff are then switched on Internal Transfers to the UK by Asian Consultancies.
The estimate years ago was that 200,000 UK IT staff lost their jobs and please remember that Tony Blair surrounded himself with people owning IT Consultancies and the Government gave them work and they brought in non-EU staff to work on those contracts.
Asian IT workers I have known and worked with wanted the 5 years (and they take a UK job) so they could get a UK Passport and they worked cheaply to do so because if they have a UK Passport it makes it easier to get work in the US and bypass regulations that restrict them from moving from their native countries directly to the US.
They can also band together in owning property and this enables them to return home vastly richer in comparison to others.
For those who might want to insinuate that I am racist in my comments my first serious Girl Friend was Chinese, I shared a house with a Jamaican and my girlfriend before my wife was of Indian Descent."
Workers of the world, unite!
"Response to optimist99, 10 January 2012 7:25pm
And, immigrants to the UK - take jobs that would otherwise be done by the Brits?
(Like picking cauliflowers in Lincolnshire).
And are a drain socially in NHS costs (despite being from the healthiest cohort in society)?
-------------
plenty of prisoners sitting around idle in prison or work-shy individuals on the dole that could easily pick vegetables in Lincolnshire.
It beggars belief the UK PAYS individuals to sit on their arse and not work, they even pay their rent. No wonder the UK is broke."
"Response to Readingboy, 10 January 2012 2:31pm
""Unfortunately we can't do much about those coming in from the EU,except leave,which very many of us would do in a heartbeat if we had the chance""
What's the problem?
See Eures"
"_AT_jackhargreaves44

no i don't accept that at all, the government left the huge loophole of intra company transfers that are trivial to fiddle and regularly done in the IT sector i have experience of. there seem to be 2 main reasons for the immigration then:-
1. cheap/malleable labour
2. racism from external sources once control of departments have been 'lost' to the immigrant grouping
no i'm not making this up, seen it time and time again and it's the only way to explain the many IT departments in UK companies which have a majority of staff from outside the EU let alone the UK"
"Response to tunnocks, 10 January 2012 2:51pm
""I've worked with Eastern Bloc Europeans and the bulk of the money they earn here is sent home for second homes, so the money is draining away from the UK, and not recirculating here""
Just like the wicked Brits who work in Germany and send money back to the UK
to support their children at Uni.
(As I once did)."
"Response to peterainbow, 10 January 2012 8:02pm
A friend of mine works in IT was shown a corporate video at work of a smelly, unkempt Indian man in a scrubby, dirty little office with a plaque on his desk saying: I WANT YOUR JOB.
I kid you not!
Immigration seems to be a cop out, they should educate the people that live here properly and encourage a child friendly economy and protect the cultural heritage of this country. Anything else is tantamount to a betral of the UK"
you dont have to be a statatician to realise that fewer and fewer jobs and more and more people is going to create unemployment, and competition for those jobs, is going to push down wages and with the abolition of trade tariffs and heavy regulations on small businesses. And coporations filling that void and outsourceing to china that doesnt have to meet any enviromental targets pay employee compensation or social benefits then your going to hear a great sucking sound as we are deindustrialised. our economy is not failing its being deconstructed. nation states and and democrocy is being desroyed to concentrate the power of more and more peoples lifes into fewer peoples hands. our schools well they are just indocrination centres to dumb down the masses youre not taught critical thinking just to parrot somone elses ideas and ideology. the politicians dont reprosent us they reprosent their coprate masters the courts and police dont reprosent us they stifle consent with brute force and the press create a false reality to divide us what happens when they cant feed us all will they fire up the ovens i would put it past our masters
"Response to optimist99, 10 January 2012 8:06pm
optimist, the Turkish prime minister recently said to decedents(some of the 3rd generation) of Turkish immigrants in Germany that they are Turkish first and German second. How is that beneficial to Germany, also Germany s paying heavily socially with Turkish immigrants in Germany."
"Response to wotever, 10 January 2012 3:05pm
"" Immigration to Britain from outside Europe is linked to unemployment
Who'd have thunk it?
Next report is investigating:
What happens when you have 10 apples and you give 8 away?
Do you end up with: More apples, the same amount, or less apples?""
Wrong wotever!
That is called the ""lump of labour "" fallacy.
The number of jobs available is partly a function of the number
of willing and suitable workers available at a given price.
Hence the record number of jobs available in Germany - and the people to fill them.
The number of jobs available is not a constant!"
"During periods of prosperous economic conditions, mainly fuelled by artificial economic growth, society acts indifferently towards broader effects of unregulated immigration on the labour pool.
Immigration policies usually become a relevant topic within the public domain when financial bubbles start deflating, causing a decline of artificial liquidity, credit constriction and corporate restructuring, leading to the inevitable period of employment scarcity, thereby reducing the size of middle classes by demoting lower echelons to financially deficient underclasses.
This is a historically repeated, vicious cycle which despite its substantial societal effects throughout the centuries, proved that it is a matter which matters not for any political cycle, which acts imprudently at best, concerned with short term results and with the sole target of voting base support perpetuation, neglecting the compounding of flawed policies and ignoring the certain and damaging outcome.
Immigration does not cause unemployment. Lack of prudent policy facilitation regarding its inflows, assimilation and the economic infrastructure which should be integrated in does."
Im sure the roman Britons thoughts it was a good idea to invite over some Saxon immigrants at one point to fill a few jobs as mercenaries...
"Response to ballist1x, 10 January 2012 3:36pm
""they are for the most part well off, they may claim £300 fuel allowance that they would have claimed when they lived in the UK despite living abroad. They were eligible when they were here too..otherwise they would not be eligible for it abroad...""
It's virtually impossible to claim the winter fuel payment if you live abroad -see
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Pensionsandretirementplanning/Benefits/BenefitsInRetirement/DG_198331
The only way it can be done is to claim it before leaving the UK in one year and the next
year to take a holiday back in the UK in a specific week."
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 6:36pm
Not according to this research:

See also points 4.32, 4.33. and 4.40. You're welcome to disagree with their conclusions, of course, but don't mistake what they've said. Also bear in mind your goalposts are somewhat different from theirs, as they're not accounting for youth employment alone."
"Response to tiredofwhiners, 10 January 2012 6:46pm
the highest number of unemployed youth today are graduates diplomas and degrees unless in medicine or engineering are not worth the money a piece of paper is not a sign of intelligence or reliability and not many employees put much stock in them"
"Response to jailbird, 10 January 2012 3:56pm
""So if all the migrants ""turn up for work, work harder & longer, complain less & don't resent their employers for earning a profit off their backs. They don't do sickies & bugger off to Ibiza for a week during peak season.""
Why are the countries they come from such crap holes?""
Being under the nazis between 1939 and 1945 and the communists thereafter
until 1990 would hardly have made the a UK paradise.
This is what happened to Poland - the country on whose behalf we went to war in 1939...."
"The implication is that the jobs that immigrants take would otherwise go to UK nationals.Yet these jobs may also have simply disappeared along with the businesses. I live in a poor East Lancashire town with high unemloyment but my wife ( non EU national) recently obtained a job within a day with a local business that continues to advertise as do a number in the town.
The fact is that UK nationals have a choice of social security and other benefits that pay better( or at least as well) than a hard low paid job working many hours a day and many in fact make that choice.Perfectly rational economic decision in the circumstances - but do not blame Polish and other nationals EU or non-EU that come here because there is work - and there still is- and cheap housing (still is)- that they can benefit from where others care not to."
"Abstracting from the MAC report (which doesn't appear to be publicly available), if the Tories new anti-immigration line is ""It harms the poor and causes low skill unemployment"", I look forward to them banning imports from China, India and elsewhere, as this has a far more powerful impact.
Or is this just a smokescreen for less noble reasons to restrict immigration?
Still the anti-immigrant non-Spanish speaking Daily Mail-reading expats in British communities on the Costa del Sol who moan about how immigrants to the UK don't and can't integrate properly can take solace from this ""impartial"" study"
"Still the anti-immigrant non-Spanish speaking Daily Mail-reading expats in British communities on the Costa del Sol who moan about how immigrants to the UK don't and can't integrate properly can take solace from this ""impartial"" study
--------
what are you babbling on about man. This is not a joke! Sure you would be quick enough to bemoan immgrants stealing jobs in Bahrain but if its the UK the its ok..."
"Response to xpeters, 10 January 2012 4:50pm
xpeters -
""If this Government ended the national obsession with academia and channelled the money instead into apprenticeships and technical education (as they do in Germany), the UK would have a much more employable domestic workforce.""
Indeed yes.
Have lived in Germany for 13 years and endlessly wrestle with the evidence -
Germany works well and the UK does not.
One reason is that Germany kept its grammar schools (but makes it easy
to go into them - and leave them) and emphasises vocational training.
Only just over 20% of Germans have degrees - but those who have
are generally superior to the average UK graduate."
"Response to leftHypocrisy, 10 January 2012 4:55pm
""immigration can be beneficial but the open borders policy with the EU and the rest of the world has proven to be a failure.""
Not for me, and hundreds of thousands of fellow Brits in Germany (alone)."
How does the economy know the difference between EU and non-EU immigrants? Does the law of gravity work differently for EU and non-EU people as well?
The committee research suggests that for every extra 2 non-European migrants who come to Britain, 1 fewer British residents get a Nobel Prize ;).
"Response to DarkHarajuku, 10 January 2012 8:09pm

They can transmit smells over video now? Why has this technological advance not received any fanfare?"
Why on earth should it matter whether the immigrant is EU or non EU? Wherever they come from, they're getting a job.
"Response to tiredofwhiners, 10 January 2012 6:46pm
Well there seems to be quite a few unskilled jobs filled by immigrants. Go into any hotel, shop, factory, cafe' you will often be served by an immigrant. Buses of immigrants from an agency are regularly shipped in to work at the place I am employed at now.
Your comment is silly, and I think it is very offensive to say ""I have nothing to offer"".
I am nearly 60 and have worked hard all my life, I now have a job so your suggestion that I am apparently worthless is incorrect.
There are plenty of well educated skilled people leaving uni who are struggling to find jobs too, they also have to compete with immigrant labour.
'tiredofwhiners' you are lucky to be such a fortunate chap, obviously jobs fall in your lap.
Apart from the employment issue, this is a small island. Land, food, water, jobs, healthcare are/will be stretched, resources are limited. How many more people can we absorb.
Common sense says this current situation of uncontrolled mass immigration cannot, must not continue otherwise we are going to turn into a third world country. Some would say we are going that way already."
"Response to DarkHarajuku, 10 January 2012 7:56pm
""Are you listening to yourself optimist what planet did you come from? Since when should migration be a free for all?""
I merely said that there are huge restrictions on non EU immigration.
My opinion as to whether this was a good thing or not was not given!
In fact the points system as introduced by HMG seems reasonable to me."
"Response to tunnocks, 10 January 2012 2:51pm

Money can't drain away. It makes no difference whether those Polish workers buy goods in the UK or convert the money into zlotys by handing it over to the Polish government (or central bank) which can then use it to import British goods. It can't do anything else with it other than bury it in the ground! The nature of money has changed since the time that the UK had a silver crisis in the 19th century."
"Response to Gruff01, 10 January 2012 7:54pm
Precisely. It is quite incredible that the rudimentary tenets of a decent society like a job and a place to live are fast becoming passe in the UK in the 21st century. My socialism is based on that premise: work hard for one's family and bring them up in a decent environment. What we have now is a disgusting obsession with lowering wages, a rentier class, the tired old cliches about UK youth. Wouldn't you pissed off if you saw the state of the nation? Criminals at the top who don't give a f*ck about their own people. What really made me laugh/cry was that when Hammond recently admitted that train travel was only for the rich. True of course but what a vile country we've become. A government minister admitting that the nation's transport system was only affordable for the rich. Disgusting.
The UK, 2012. A banana republic in sore need of a coup."
"Response to DarkHarajuku, 10 January 2012 8:13pm
Turkish immgration has been highly advantageous to Germany.
When East Germans were prevented from fleeing to West Germany
in 1962 there was a huge labour shortage in booming West Germany.
Turkish ""gastarbeiter"" were recruited to man the assembly lines
in large numbers.
60 years later their descendants form the largest group of
immigrants in Germany - though a large proportion have German nationality.
That there are points of friction between the two communities is undeniable -
but the BRD is enriched greatly by the presence of the Turks,
who are increasingly climbing the ladder and going into middle -class professions.
Turkey itself is a huge success story and a major German trading partner..."
"As a Canadian I am fascinated by the arguments with regard to immigration in the UK.Canada and Australia take in 0.8% of their population year after year,equivalent to 500000 people in the UK.The system is by no means perfect,but both countries enjoy lower unemployment and a higher standard of living than the UK so large scale immigration can work.
Why doesn't it appear to work well in the UK? I would posit three suggestions;
You do not have control of the type of immigrant entering from the EU.
Immigration is far too concentrated on the overcrowded south-east.
Welfare and particularly disability benefits provide a disincentive to work,particularly with the cutback of benefits upon entering the work force.We have a similar problem in Canada but it only seems to be really serious in Quebec and the Maritimes.
I would be very interested to hear other serious suggestions."
It's a bit convenient for the government that the report cites 'NON EU migrants', isn't it? How have they worked out it is them and not EU migrants? Dunno about anyone else but, in my experience, it is EU and Australians that are present in all the service roles that I encounter. Am not saying this means they are taking our jobs-just that the government attack on 'foreigners' needs a little more evidence!
"Response to Davewhoever, 10 January 2012 7:57pm
And even before 2000 large number of South African IT
programmers were coming to the UK and working -
while no Brit had the slightest chance of being allowed
to work in South Africa!
""Tony Blair surrounded himself with people owning IT Consultancies
and the Government gave them work and they brought in non-EU staff
to work on those contracts"".
Absolutely!
Te lie of a permanent ""shortage"" of IT staff in the UK was peddled
endlessly.
But hey?
What did UK IT staff do about this?
Form a trade union?
Get the British Computer Society to do some lobbying?
No - they had no one to speak for them and the jobs
were sucked up by outsourcing, mergers, inter-company transfers of
third-world labour and so on."
"Just to clarify an important point
FRUIT FARMING IN THE UK PREDATES MASS IMMIGRATION!
so whenever you hear ""They are picking the fruit because the brits won't do it"" remember that before 2003 brits did it and did it perfectly well.
Presumably the farmers have realised that when you're a migrant sharing a room with 10 other flatulent men all huddled together in one corner fear o' fall-in, you can easily convince them to work 20 hour days for you at the minimum wage. They're not daft these fruit farmers."
"I am an immigrant from Australia and have been in the UK 4 1/2 years on a tier one visa but may be forced to leave by the maddening and inconsistent government policies around immigration.
My immigrant crimes:
I came to the UK for travel and cultural reasons, certainly not financial: I can earn considerably more in Australia. I have not come not here to 'better myself' but rather to live life in a place that I feel part of and want to contribute to. I speak English (I suspect better than many UK passport holders). I hold a masters degree. I have no criminal record (one parking ticket). I make minimal use of health services, having been to the GP twice in the UK (never to a hospital). I earn twice the average salary and pay tax accordingly and receive no public funds of any sort. On two occasions when I successfully applied for employment I was the only candidate suitably qualified to be interviewed. I do regular voluntary work and am a member of a local Christian church. I play for a local village cricket team and have on occasion and am involved with village social events. I am certainly not a Nobel prize winner or a saint, just a normal person who has found a cultural and spiritual home in England.
The message I receive politically and administratively from recent UK immigration policy- 'go somewhere else. You are not who we want in our country.'
The tier one visa route is essentially closed and the tier two does not look likely to lead to settlement. All this despite many years of net migration from the UK TO Australia???
Sadly, as I love England and the people that make her what she is (although I will never support the cricket team!), I may have no reasonable option to stay.
Whilst it is clear that no policy can account for all personal situations please remember that immigrants are people with varied situations, beliefs and contributions that no right wing, second class opinion poorly packaged as research, can hope to quantify."
"Response to optimist99, 10 January 2012 9:08pm
You say there was a ""huge labour shortage""..according to who? Usually a ""huge labour shortage"" is code for, ""if we don't get another million in here quick we're going to have to start paying these buggers a living wage""."
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 6:42pm
Good point wasson, I truly believe most youngsters do want to work. I met one of my sons school friends in the local job center a few weeks ago. He cannot find a job, he said he has never felt so miserable in his life before. He desperately wants work.
There are a minority of workshy, but it is a minority"
"_AT_tunnocks:
""I've worked with Eastern Bloc Europeans and the bulk of the money they earn here is sent home for second homes, so the money is draining away from the UK, and not recirculating here""
That's just part of the deal of a labour market.
Those countries have paid for 20 years of upbringing and education of those workers only to then see a far richer nation and its citizens - with a culture entitlement to ever cheaper goods and services and healthcare and all the rest - grab them.
Quid pro quo. But we Brits do expect a one-way bet in our favour, of course.
I've worked abroad a lot over the years on more money than I'd get at home. There was no expectation at all I should spend my earnings locally, Indeed, it was more: ""lucky her, that'll pay her mortgage her off double quick"".
But we're Brits, of course. We're entitled. Different rules.
Also as an immigrant (which I am at the moment) you can't win. Keep your money where you live and you are ""pricing out"" the locals. Spend it and you are the ""flash foreigner"". Use it to downshift and you are the ""lazy freeloader""."
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 9:20pm
""remember that before 2003 brits did it and did it perfectly well.""
No they didn't - That's why Worcestershire fruit farmers were grubbing their trees up
and getting out of the business.
(Similarly in many areas of horticulture in East Anglia).
The East Europeans were a boon to the branches of agriculture needing large numbers
of semi-skilled low paid workers.
Jobs were created on a large scale.
Just the same as in Germany - who picks the grapes and harvests the asparagus?
Long before the Poles were allowed to work freely in Germany they were allowed in
as seasonal workers to cut the asparagus - a job Germans find too backbreaking.
Anyone who has actually been to Poland would say good luck to the Poles - who have had
it very bad indeed between 1939 and 1990.
I've been to most of the Polish cities and major towns close to the German border - and they are grim,
a bit like late 1940's Leicester, but are improving.
Now the Poles are allowed freely into Germany and with a thriving German economy
(The Euro still being far stronger than the GBP), the flow of Polish emigrants will be away from the UK.
(As is already happening)."
"Judging by several of these comments, it seems some in the UK want it both ways - that is, without taking a good long look at many of their own citizens' behaviour.
Both Australia and the UK have a third of their current workforces out of work. This hasn't stopped a wave of UK and other country's citizens from flooding into Australia and securing work at the expense of many Australians.
However, I can't see any UK citizens on this site apologising for exploiting another country for economic gain at the expense of the locals. From an article I read recently, it's not only Australia that has a huge wave of temporary UK migration, but South America and other locations too.
Also, as the article states, such economic migration has an impact on housing in Australia too, with rental rates in Sydney now be unaffordable to many locals who might otherwise live and work there.
Just think that if you're going to give it, you'd better be prepared to take it!"
"Response to optimist99, 10 January 2012 9:37pm
Hold on a minute optimist, lets go through this step by step..by definition, if there were fruit farms in 2004 for the immigrants to come to, they must have had their fruit picked before the immigrants came. Otherwise there wouldn't have been any fruit farms would there."
"Response to oommph, 10 January 2012 9:32pm
20 years of upbringing and culture in East Europe? How much would that cost exactly? Twenty quid?"
"Response to DarkHarajuku, 10 January 2012 8:37pm
I just find it amusing how British immigrants to Spain (for e.g.) who don't learn Spanish and segregate themselves in English ghettos are often the most vocal in bemoaning how immigrants to the UK don't learn English and refuse to adopt UK culture and maintain customs from their forefathers.
Immigration is a side-show to the economic arguments. The UK imports the equivalent of millions of low-skilled people via importing labour intensive goods/services from China, India and elsewhere. If the Government was serious about the income distribution argument against immigration it would engage in protectionist measures against Chinese and Indian imports as a matter of urgency, improving matters for the low-skilled (manufacturing returns), accepting the hit to UK GDP this would cause.
I am dubious about other things in the study too, but will reserve judgement as I have not read the detail:
* It stretches belief that non-EU immigration can be harmful to jobs but EU immigration is not. One of those statements must be wrong.
* the study uses ""country of birth"" rather than ""citizenship"" - it will include many British nationals as ""immigrants""
* It appears at odds with other studies suggesting no significant impact on jobs
* I am unsure whether it controls for other things - unemployment increased massively after 2008 - it stretches credibility to claim this is down to immigration given unemployment trends elsewhere in the world where immigration is low and falling"
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 9:24pm
I'm talking about 1962.
This was when the Germans had the ""Wirtschaftswunder"".
The economic miracle.
Remember they built 20 million VW Beetles - when the supply
of ethnic Germans dried up, they had to get someone to man
the assmbly lines.
They imported Turkish women as well - to monitor mustard
bottling lines and so on.
The Germans did not import the workers to depress wages!
German trades unions were and are far too powerful to allow that.
It looks like the old times are coming back - nearly 800,000 vacancies
in Germany.
http://jobboerse.arbeitsagentur.de/vamJB/startseite.html?kgr=as&aa=1&m=1&vorschlagsfunktionaktiv=true"
"When I was younger, income from my main job was barely enough to pay the rent so I had to get myself an evening job working pretty much flat out. Over time, with work experience in different fields, I had made myself a little more marketable. Too many focus purely on immediate returns.
Conclusion .... those who complain about migrant workers are mostly lazy. However, migrants, although they are often hard working and provide a valuable service, also have the negative effect of keeping down average wages."
"Response to Charlottejane, 10 January 2012 10:54am
This is a Marxist falacy. More efficient working frees up labour resources to do other work, and, with a strong enterprise culture, adds to economic wealth. Of course if no such culture exists and there is a poor work ethic then it is an entirely different matter.
There is no doubt that immigration has led to higher unemployment of the indigenous population. Only a fool would believe otherwise - and there are an awful lot of them around!"
id rather have a handmade pair of shoes or a handmade suit from an artisan than a mass produced bit of crudd efficiency doesnt mean qaulity. the cleverest machine will never compare to the thickest human. the division of labour was designed to strip the the skilled worker of his power by breaking production into small pieces. see talyorism . to hand greater power to the industrialists .and im sorry youre enviromental arguement doesnt hold water when mass production was mastered we were turn into a nation of consumers purchasing things we didnt need by the likes advertising men like edward bernas. see propapaganda written by the same. who prayed on our deep routed desires we need to get away from a thing orientatad society.and back to a people orientated society
"why the title and the text talks about Non European immigration but then the photo and the text under the photo ...East European workers picking strawberries. The new research challenges the established academic consensus that there has been little or no direct link between immigration and employment levels in Britain
can someone explain this?"
"Response to lafemmena, 10 January 2012 9:59pm
seriously... the text is about new people coming to the UK from outside EU, but the photo is about Eastern Europeans! I really didn't expected such crap from Guardian"
"Metcalf says 160,000 British-born workers have been displaced by non-EU migrants since 2005. But he added that there was no evidence that European immigration, including Polish, had led to fewer British workers being employed.
So your photo and the text under has a major fault in it."
Very probably, Mike. Perhaps you would like to explain how the non-UK nationals have taken jobs that nationals would otherwise be doing.
"I don't have a problem with unskilled immigration when there are genuine recruitment problems, but it's been managed incompetently. I think that a guest worker program could be a good thing if it was strictly enforced.
For example, say farm X needs 100 people to harvest crops but can only recruit 50 British workers. I think it would be a good idea to let them hire 50 guest workers. However, it would have to be under very strict conditions. I don't see the point in hiring Poles because they're not the cheapest people in the world. They'd be better off hiring people from places where they earn less than a dollar a day. Though there would need to safeguards to prevent the cheaper guest workers outcompeting the British workers. So, for example you could let farm X recruit the foreign workers at £1.00 an hour (A massive sum in whatever dump they come from) on the condition that they top up the wages and transfer the savings to the British workers. So if the British workers earned the £6.08 an hour minimimum wage (Which should be more), if would be topped up to £11.16 an hour. The crops get harvested, the foreigners earn much more than they would at home and the British workers get a handsome pay rise. A good situation for all.
But it would need to be strictly enforced to avoid the pitfalls of Germany's experiences with guest workers. There would need to be prison sentences against overstayers and the guest workers would have to be housed in special neighbourhoods to avoid the complications of forming relationships with the locals. But if done properly it could work out very well."
"Response to FredinSpain, 10 January 2012 11:38am

I couldn't agree more. Why should opportunities be denied to those prepared to take them so backside sitters can have their prejudices massaged?"
martin luther king vietnam speech http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80Bsw0UG-U
"Response to steveilisa, 10 January 2012 10:16pm


You're a bit late on that one, the Vietnam war ended a few years ago. Also, I don't recall waking up American."
"Look hard enough and you'll find a scapegoat for anything: woeful economic stats, well we'll blame Europe; woeful unemployment figures and we'll blame migrants; falling standards in the NHS, blame the nurses; rising violent crime and prison population, blame the 'feral underclass'. You name it and we've got the answer: any target is fair game for the Tory Press and spin machine.
Whose next for the hatchet men? Bet his first name's Alex."
"Whatever your views on this, let's not forget that it was Tony Blair's Labour government that opened the door to mass immigration to the UK, motivated politically to ""rub the Right's nose in diversity"".
See the link below:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
Or if the Telegraph isn't up your street (it's not up mine), here's a Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_multiculturalism
I don't know why this doesn't get more attention, not because of immigration per se, but because of its political motivation.
It's truly shocking."
"Response to popkin, 10 January 2012 1:19pm
Alas a lot of unemployed Brits especially the young and the feckless underclass think these hard graft get your hands dirty jobs are beneath them or don't pay enough.This despite the fact that they have few or no skills to offer to the workplace man hangs his self at heathrow airport afterbeing told two weeks before xmas that he may lose his job after 26 years of loyal service http://uk.news.yahoo.com/body-found-hanged-at-heathrow-airport.html"
"_AT_optimist99

that LIE again
the fruit farming was/is dying due to the downward pressure on wholesale prices by the big supermarkets, maybe now the wage cost has dropped and some can stay in the game, but that's just a race to the bottom isn't it and look at what they are competing with
do you really want workers in this country to be paid third world wages whilst having first world living costs?
you are MAD! or SCUM or both to be peddling these lies..."
"steveilisa

perhaps you might want to join the dots there?
young refuse to step onto a low wage economy ladder knowing they'll be cast aside when it suits, even when they may have their own families to support
i mean come THINK!
what drives you to work? just the toys you can buy with the money?
or perhaps because you aspire to being part of your community and have a family etc?
but then when you see and are told there is no society/community then what exactly is the F*&^kin point?"
"_AT_ whatithink

it's simple as to why,it'll mean a race to the bottom in conditions and wages and WHY as a society would we want that?
of course the owners and rich would love that wouldn't they? back to Dickensian times?"
"Response to FredinSpain, 10 January 2012 11:38am
british as well http://uk.news.yahoo.com/body-found-hanged-at-heathrow-airport.html"
"Response to TheGreatCucumber, 10 January 2012 10:19pm
did you listen its still relevent"
Statistically its very difficult to believe that if there are 100 jobs going, then cheap foreign labour does not crowd out the English who expect a higher wage. So the immigrant gets the work and the English become unemployed. We need better explanations of why it does not matter!
"regal
10 January 2012 12:40PM labour let into britain when they were in power,2.2 million immigrants from outside the EU and then labour signed upto letting
Ignorant idiot: The upsurge in immigration came from the Tory government signing up to the enlaregement of europe (Poland etc): They did it to dish the commies: The result was the surge in immigarnts at the end of the 1990s.
Tory policy not Labour, but what do facts matter?"
"Response to TheGreatCucumber, 10 January 2012 10:19pm
and still at war"
"Response to peterainbow, 10 January 2012 11:21pm
the first part wasnt written by me. my thoughts started from man hangs himself .just response to comment from first page just embedded incorrectly go back to first page of comments and youll see"
"Response to DarkHarajuku, 10 January 2012 7:55pm
I haven't been to Rotterdam or Zuid-Holland so do not know of the situation there. I do not think Amsterdam is Balkanised though. There are no restrictions on whether buitenlanders may live in certain areas. There is no neighbourhood in this city that I as a buitenlander am prevented from living in, visiting, frequenting etc. Intercommunal violence is practically heard of. It is not as though the 17th century Wars of Religion still abound here. There is also hardly any drive to force buitenlanders to communicate in Nederlands when in public. I have never come across Nederlanders who disapprove or chastise buitenlanders from speaking a non-Nederlandse tongue when in public."
there's too much data for this hour, but surely hordes of Brits in EU are doing their best too?
"Response to optimist99, 10 January 2012 9:48pm
800,000 vacancies isn't a lot. There are allegedly 650,000 vacancies in the UK right now. Usually when you drill down into them at least two-thirds of them will be minimum wage agency jobs at the other end of the country that last a week or two at most."
"Response to jeansanspeur, 10 January 2012 11:05pm
I'm not sure how ""Labour"" you can call Tony Blair. And I don't believe the motivation was even the racist one it was an economic argument - Blair realised it would depress wages, devastate working conditions and unions and make bumper profits for employers. They were relaxed about people getting filthy rich remember."
"Response to wasson, 10 January 2012 9:20pm

In the 40s , Concordia was setup that used students from all around the world to do most of the fruit picking. My uncle came in the 80s to pick strawberries and learn English , I came in the 98 to pick strawberries in Norfolk.
There were very rare instances of uk students doing it with us.
And I am talking about tens of thousands of students coming only for few months and finance their stay with picking fruits and learning English.
nowadays Concordia has changed the rules and it is only open to EU countries."
"""optimist99
10 January 2012 8:06PM
Response to tunnocks, 10 January 2012 2:51PM
""I've worked with Eastern Bloc Europeans and the bulk of the money they earn here is sent home for second homes, so the money is draining away from the UK, and not recirculating here""
Just like the wicked Brits who work in Germany and send money back to the UK
to support their children at Uni.
(As I once did).""
How many UK nationals are doing this in germany? is there over 500,000 of them?
The issue isnt that one or two of them are doing it in the UK, its thast we have what 2 million plus immigrant workforce itent on doing this."
"Response to Charlottejane, 10 January 2012 11:49am
It's progress if you believe that life's rewards should be reserved for the entrepreneurial and rich, while being poor is the proper punishment for not being good at making money. Since we are ruled now by global coporations which think exactly that, expect the ruin of the welfare state and the re-establishment of conditions designed to make labour as cheap as possible."
"Response to INserTcOin, 11 January 2012 8:29am
////
INserTcOin, that's what British students used to do in their holidays too. Picking grapes in France was especially popular. Of course we all worked abroad if we could - much more interesting than the identical work at home, and you usually went with a bunch of friends.
In other words, it was a two-way exchange, not hard-working incomers filling in for lazy Brits! And as you say, it was a working holiday, not a move abroad.
Before people could afford to go abroad, they had working holidays in their own country. Whole families used to leave London to pick hops in Kent. Otherwise the crop was brought in by local people who weren't in employment, including schoolkids and their mothers, and retired people. Seasonal work has always been useful to families on low incomes."
"Response to jeansanspeur, 10 January 2012 11:05pm
Nonsense. Mass migration didn't suddenly start in 1997. And, by the way, since when is diversity ""shocking""?"
*parp!*
"Response to Briar, 11 January 2012 10:33am
'Response to jeansanspeur, 10 January 2012 11:05PM
Nonsense. Mass migration didn't suddenly start in 1997. And, by the way, since when is diversity ""shocking""?'

Briar, I don't want to be misunderstood here: I've no problem with diversity or multi-culturalism; what I'm describing as ""shocking"" is Tony Blair's cynical political motivation.
And, to respond to your statement regarding mass-migration: mass-migration in the UK has mushroomed since 2000, with nearly 3-million immigrants arriving in the UK since then."
"Response to mintaka, 10 January 2012 8:50pm
Just telling what the the presentation was about. Is crazy I know, guess they wanted to quietly threaten existing staff with the possibility of outsourcing."
"Response to physer, 10 January 2012 9:22pm
sorry physer you are not the type the UK wants, we are trying to turn the uk into a third world country.
Maybe if you spnge more, get a criminal record, play the human rights card and burn your passport you will be in line for a windfall."
"Response to giveusaclue, 10 January 2012 3:42pm
_AT_giveusaclue - The clue was 'strawberries'."
this is a tedious debate and one that comes round as often as are A levels getting easier. So what if we can't speak any other language than english? There are subtitles on films..... yeah yeah it makes us insular.... meh.... there are subtitles on films....
It comes back to the current UK obsession with avoiding anything difficult - so foreign languages join physics, mathematics, spelling, grammar, Latin etc. in the dustbin of the UK's educational history.
"If recent reports are to be believed employers are being forced to send their workers on courses to improve their skills in their own language. So what chance have foreign languages?
I was fortunate enough to learn Latin at school. It helped me with my own language, and with the structure of grammar. And it forms the basis of many other European languages too, our own included.
The problem with education generally is that it is obsessed with appearance rather than substance. We didn't need league tables when I was growing up. People of my generation learned to read,write, add up and spell properly. Today, pupils are coached to get through tests and exams to massage the league tables. That's not education."
Again, another �difficult� subject area is pilloried. A few days ago it was the sciences which were being ignored, now it is �Languages� in the Arts. It may well be due to headteachers, mindful of their rating in the school league tables, who phase out difficult subjects but, surely, much of the responsibility rests with the parents who go along with this trend. Where will it end? Do parents want their children to finish school with a certificate of many subjects but of little value? Where would be the indication of hard work, of striving for something better? Are schools nothing more than �baby-sitters� giving only nominal added-value and a worthless certificate to their charges by the time they leave? The alternative, in the languages area, is to regress to pidgin English or a refined �basic� English and use that for everything, after all, English is supposed to be the major trading language. But where would be the joy of reading something in its original language? We must remember that English may be a useful language, with more words in it than most, but there are words in other languages which cannot be translated back into English and many subtle meanings become lost. How many of us English speakers can appreciate the glories of the Welsh and Celtic languages, which are right here on our doorstep, not to mention the wonders of French, German and Spanish literature which are readily available? Further, what about the enjoyment in being able to talk intelligently to someone of a different culture whether on holiday or in business. Is this not of value? Look around, find someone who has studied and used languages, look at the ex-pats among you. The odds are that he or she has a broader outlook on life than the person who has stayed solely in one country and used only one language. That person has realised that there is more than one way of doing something, more than one way of enjoyment and, most importantly, that there is more than one way of thinking. The alternative approach is to remain, in general, people who say �we have always done it this way!� and thus conclude that anything different is wrong. The fundamental problem resides in Parliament. They are in a position to do something about this sad state of affairs. However, every parent should be worried about this trend away from �hard� subjects and from the idea that a narrow base of one language is sufficient for thought and appreciation. They need to prod their local MP into action. I wish you success that!
"The appositely named 'fateeore' speaks for the majority of the British: Why bother?
Let the wops, krauts and dagoes learn OUR lingo. After all isn't ours the premier language, don't Hollywood films rule?
I'm glad to have learnt both Spanish and German. Though not at school; there I was taught French. I was brought up with the Latin Mass and reading and speaking/singing in that language, and when I was later to work in Spain it helped in my learning.
I am self-taught and left school at 15 having no qualifications from school and have had a great 25 years travelling and working all over the world. The pursuit of another language has immeasurably smoothed my passage. I feel sorry for the fateeores of the world, they're part of a growing trend of young people who think the world owes THEM an easy passage through life and eventually grow up to know the price of everything, but the value of nothing."
I am a linguist (currently unemployed in that capacity) and a foreigner (from an "old" European Union country), so to that extent I have a "natural bias" in favour of foreign languages. But why on earth are the British making life so difficult for themselves, by taking the "easy" option and not bothering with foreign languages/cultures/mindsets unless they have to, and even being proud of their ignorance and snootiness? What's wrong with attempting at least one foreign language just like everybody else in Europe? The Swiss and the Luxembourgeois are triligual as a matter of course. Here, the huge potential of biligualism in people whose parents are foreign-born goes untapped. It's such a waste. I wish I had had the time and the money to study even more languages and cultures, and more "remote" (non-European) ones than the five I already know to a greater or lesser degree of fluency: Enough, in each case, to absorb the culture, read the literature, get some background for the works of art, of other people. It's utterly fascinating once you have c h o s e n to do it, but you do have to make the choice. It's your loss if you don't.
It is a particularly strange idea that so many English speaking people have, that foreign languages are intrinsically "difficult". Most people in the world are at least bilingual and many are multilingual. This does not depend on their level of education, but on their social needs. In many parts of Africa, for example, children grow up speaking three or more languages simply because everyone else speaks them. English speakers who find themselves living in environments where English is not spoken or understood find they can learn at least the basics of the new language pretty quickly. The growth of English as a world language for business, tourism, and to some extent, culture, has meant that there is no perceived NEED to learn foreign languages... and it is certainly difficult to learn anything where there is no real need.
It's just another rung in the decline of Western civilization. Watch this space.
I am now 66 and remember the same kind of drivel when I was at school. I really don't care whether our present school children learn another language. Why should they? they already speak the greatest most flexible language the world has ever known. May the English language live forever.
This is yet another indication that the government doesn't take foreign languages seriously. This is the same government that pushed the EU into cutting the budget for the ERASMUS programme, which sends students to study to other EU countries for a year. To date it has not been much used by UK students - who hadn't cottonned on to the fact that they could take a year out of their degree course abroad at EU taxpayers' expense. One more nail in the coffin of badly needed international understanding.
Look on the bright side: we may not have a generation of kids that can comprehend scientific matters, perform mathematical calculations, communicate in English or any other language, have any knowledge of the past or of the wider world, but we DO have thousands who are extremely well versed in media studies, Big Brother, Heat and the WAG culture. Oh, and they are also very good at using IT, so long as it's the use of proprietary (usually Microsoft) packages, and doesn't concern the underlying principles. In addition they are magnificent at clamouring for their voices to be heard, regardless of whether they are equipped with either the skills or the experience to make any worthwhile contribution to any debates of importance. PR and empty self-promotion (no prominence on merit, please!) are truly the skills that any youngster needs for the 21st century, rather than any fuddy-duddy subjects that involve concentration, academic discipline,rigorous analysis, or application (perish the thought). Perfect for the needs of the CBI, whose emergence as a dictator of what ought to be on the curriculum is oh so welcome, as we move towards a more ignorant,compliant workforce, but one utterly fluent in the dark arts of spin, management-consultancy speak and adherence to a narrow economic orthodoxy, where private profit is always good, and notions of the public interest and common good are ridiculed.
Studying for a GCSE in a foreign language is not the same as learning the language - it's usually enough to be able to ask where the train station is. UK students at 16 with GCSEs are so far behind European peers in language ability that it's almost a joke. If we're going to teach a language we need to get away from the formal way langages are taught and immerse people in the language. I studied French formally at school and could probably dredge up some grammar and vocabulary, but I'm much more confident in Spanish which I've learned from CDs and from spending time in Spain and Latin America!
I am a German language graduate (University department now closed), a qualified TEFL teacher and someone who is incessantly curious about new languages, as well as my own. On hearing that I don't have German family, most British people's reaction is 'Why German?' and 'I can barely speak my own language'. This is in stark contrast to the reaction to hearing I have spent 2 years in China. People do not seem to realise that the curiosity about other languages and cultures can be passed on to other 'useful' areas of language, (presumably to 'holding back the "yellow peril"'). Nevertheless, despite extensive experience in the world of business, team-work and communication, the attitude of 'why bother with languages?' currently seems to pervade all aspects of recruitment, employment and training in Britain. I was even turned down by a local-government temping agency on my return from China, as I hadn't recently spent time in an office environment. Never mind the fact I can work most MS Office applications in Chinese, constantly adapted to an alien environment and negotiated my way through the Chinese bureaucracy to meet my own goals and those of the organisation I with which I went to China. These attitudes are passed on from generation to generation, and the more apathy displayed about learning languages in this country, the worse it will be for us as an 'educated' nation. We are in danger of becoming even more blinkered, and future language graduates (if there are any who are able to swim through the mire of doing an unpopular subject, and being 'uncool' by trying to use an foreign accent when speaking, instead of the inevitable 'I-am-speaking-a-foreign-language' British accent) will have to cope with recruiters detracting from their achievements. Targets for languages will inevitably reduce as schools realise that business doesn't value these attributes, and integration for foreign-language speaking individuals will become even harder, as people continue to find the idea that another language is impossible, yet alone simplifying our own discourse to be comprehensible and accessible to others.
"I posted the text below on the 'Mortar Board' comment page, but this is where most of the discussion seems to be so I have copied it here.
Over 30 years ago I barely scraped a pass at GCE German (I also got a middling pass at French). I have never even attempted to speak german since. I doubt I could remember much of the language at all now.
What was the point of getting me to take this exam? I didn't enjoy the subject and found it very hard. It took me a lot of effort to get a poor result, time that could have been spent improving my results in other subjects. Please don't think I had an aversion to ""hard"" subjects (I did physics at university) it's just that I don't seem to be a natural linguist.
I feel that I could have spent the time doing something I preferred and/or would have been some use to me since. I see little point in compelling people like me to take a language exam at age 16. If that means that there are fewer students getting poor passes, I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing."
As a 'new European', I can say that learning a foreign language opened my eyes, but also made me miserable to see how much there was to be learned. However, I'd like my English friends (or detesters) to know that a foreign language is like a mirror on your 'first-language' identity. You see yourself through the eyes of the people speaking the foreign language you are learning - with all the benefits and drawbacks. So,although you don't need a foreign language to acquire more knowledge, learn one - it will make you more perceptive of your own identity!
"Learning a language as a native English-speaker is fraught with difficulties, the most obvious being - which one? I learnt German and French at school, studied German and Swedish at university and also learnt some basic Italian in evening classes. All of that is of no use to me if I meet Chinese, Spanish or Swahili speaking business partners. English is the international lingua franca at the moment and invariably even if you do speak a language you always find yourself in situations where the common language becomes English because no other language is shared or because people (hardly ever native English-speakers) just prefer to speak it. I love learning languages as a personal interest but it has done nothing for me career-wise. I have worked in the EU and while my language knowledge has been useful in getting to know other cultures and broadening the mind, I could have just as easily stayed at home and pursued my career there without any drawbacks. This is what it boils down to: learning a foreign language is a luxury or personal interest for an English-speaker rather than a necessity as it is for speakers of minority languages. That's not right or proper but it is the way it is.
Learning a language for anyone is certainly a useful personal challenge that broadens the mind. As a vocational skill, however, it is useless to an English-speaker unless you can become completely fluent and most people who learn a language after early childhood will never reach native-speaker fluency. It is a shame to discourage schoolgoers from language-learning but as long as the school system is focused on vocationally useful skills and meeting market demands there's little chance for foreign languages to remain on the curriculum in English-speaking countries. Mandarin and Arabic may be growing in popularity but how realistic are teachers being? Unless you live in a Mandarin- or Arabic-speaking country for many years you have little hope of becoming fluent if you start learning it at 12 and, as I said, basic or hesitant knowledge of a language is of very little use for an English-speaker. As soon as your audience note your accent and broken grammar, they'll just revert to the lingua franca - and that's usually English unfortunately."
"I studied German for six years at school and eventually got a grade 'A' GCSE. Yet i had learned almost nothing - i couldn't hold a conversation with a German person, watch a German film, read a German newspaper.. the return on effort was pathetic.
In other European countries young people encounter English every day in music, movies, the internet, etc - and i'm sure this is why they learn to speak it so well. In the UK learning a language is like learning the periodic table or the date of the corn-law repeal - an abstract classroom exercise, forgotten within a couple of years. As MaiJulia says above, 'That's not right or proper but it is the way it is', and i don't blame kids for choosing other subjects."
What an interesting article and what a huge range of reactions: from the farcical to the inspiring. I am now a languages teacher (Spanish & French) having re-trained to do so after 6 years in industry. Yes, languages are difficult for most but this is only because we do not teach English grammar properly in the UK. Though the introduction of the literacy hour in primary schools now means secondary languages teachers can draw basic comparisons between English and foreign languages using grammatical terms, we still have a long way to go to equip our future workers with good report-writing and communication skills. I agree wholeheartedly that functional competency in foreign languages makes a rounded communicator. My own experience of working on pan-European research projects bears this out: not only did I get the opportunity to travel, by speaking other languages I was also able to clear up ambiguities and misunderstandings when my colleagues' use of English led to confusion. If we are to maintain our place in the European and international pecking order, work efficiently and sell to new markets, we must send young workers into the workplace with the right equipment: a technical competency and a foreign language.
"MaiJulia and Diggy I cannot accept that any learning is wasted especially foreign languages. Diggy you feel that learning about the corn laws and the periodic tables are an abstract exercise but presumably not every GCSE student has decided how their life will be mapped out. Who knows who the future chemists or political scientists are going to be? I took 10 GCSEs 18 years ago and I can honestly say that I have had cause to rely on the knowledge gained from every single one of them in that time.
It is more difficult for native English speakers to learn languages but that is not an excuse for ignorance. I am continually shamed by my own inability to speak a second language and so should everyone else who cannot. British people are not genetically inferior to other Europeans (although sometimes you do wonder) and it seems that just about everyone below a certain age in Europe can speak either a second or third language. For the record I got a B in GCSE French (in 1988). I can just about read French at a basic level but I cannot write anything substantial and I cannot understand it when it is being spoken by a native (and I never could). No-one should be able to get a B with that low level of skill. Of course I may just be thick and got a fluke result but I worry that the standard of teaching in other subjects is just as low but it is harder to make international comparisons. It seems to be another example of the ""aim low, get lower"" mentality in British education.
I think that it is a mistake that French is the most widely taught language in the UK. Spanish seems to be much easier. Once kids realise that languages are not so daunting (remember most other Europeans seem to manage OK) they may show more of an interest and go on to learn other languages."
The advantages of speaking foreign languages are that unlike most Brits you are aware of how awful our newspapers are; you don't need to live in expat ghettos abroad; don't need to rely on english speaking guides. Almost forgot that if you do speak the language of a foreign country you are visiting,you hosts do not begin to guess you are English and it's quite entertaining to hear Brits making an arse of themselves.Prosit
The advantages of speaking foreign languages are that unlike most Brits you are aware of how awful our newspapers are; you don't need to live in expat ghettos abroad; don't need to rely on english speaking guides. Almost forgot that if you do speak the language of a foreign country you are visiting,your hosts do not begin to guess you are English and it's quite entertaining to hear Brits making an arse of themselves.Prosit
It is a great shame that discussion threads on education become so quickly disentangled. What could be more important to young people and to the future of our society? We appear to have little or no input in this discussion from teachers, captains of industry or even academics. Where are they? Are they not interested in the value of their subjects they teach or say that they require? It was exactly the same with the recent discussion about the "hard" subjects of science. Did anyone from the Royal Society, Royal Society of Chemistry, Physical Society, Society of Aeronautical Engineers, Rheology Society or the Association of Applied Mathematics, etc., etc., bother to contribute to the debate? No! What is the matter? Are our leaders so bored or jaded that they cannot summon up the energy to drive home the importance of these so-called "hard" subjects? Is education of so little importance to us all? What will happen to our culture if all we know of languages is basic English? Even further, what will happen to the state of education in the UK if this tendency, of taking the easy way out, continues?
"I'm a student from one of the new EU countries and I'm doing Arabic at the university in England. To be honest, I find it rather strange that the British are so unwilling to learn languages other than their own. Yes, it is certainly true that many people all over the world speak English. However there is a small nuance: not everyone is your friend and not everyone is honest with you. Not knowing the languages of other nations, you can see only what they decide to show you and hear only what they tell you IN ENGLISH. Potential trouble may range from not being able to read public signs while travelling abroad to not realising what intentions other nations may be harbouring toward your own country.
Being a linguist myself, I am very much surprised that the British don't seem to be curious to know what is being written and said in REAL Arab or Iranian press in regard to some important current affairs. Sure, not everyone is supposed to study ""exotic"" languages, but it would be good to see not only Pakistanis studying Arabic with the intention to enforce their religios identity but also English students doing that in order to take care of their homeland."
"Apologies, but a lot of this is just hogwash.
'As I said, basic or hesitant knowledge of a language is of very little use for an English-speaker. As soon as your audience note your accent and broken grammar, they'll just revert to the lingua franca - and that's usually English unfortunately.'
The logical fallacy here is that the non-native English speaker you're dealing with here is likely to have exactly the same unusual accent and broken grammar in English as you in their language. There fact is that many millions of people all over the world claim a competence in English far above their actual abilities. The natural conversation of any two people who do not share a language will be whatever they are more proficient in; if it happens to be English, fine, but if you speak excellent Spanish and they have had five years of English at school, then the language should be Spanish. I am half inclined to believe that English has become a world language because English speakers have no apparent objection to listening to their language being murdered on a large scale.
The dream of perfection in a foreign language is a fallacy; but why on earth does it have to be all (perfection) or nothing (no language learning)? After two years residing in Berlin, during which time I have applied myself assiduously to learning the language, I can enjoy a German film, read a German book, and quatschen (talk nonsense) happily with German friends. My German is imperfect. I make mistakes. I don't care. Nobody speaks a language, even their own (compare an English grammar book to your grammar), perfectly; but why should that discourage them from learning languages at all? My life has been immesuarably enriched from the access to German culture my study of the language has given.
Again and again the Englishman (and it is the Englishman - how much trouble do the Welsh have being bilingual?) will say 'Oh, I'm crap at learning languages'. What that means is 'I have never tried.' For ability in languages is like blue eyes or musical talent; a certain amount will always be spread over a population. A nation can't simply be inherently 'linguistically inept'; it's about the culture they exist in. And the dismal failure of British language learning is shown by the fact that very few people on the Island speak another language.
One of the ironies is that in terms of learning European languages is that English is an excellent base from which to do so; huge amounts of French and Germanic words exist within our vocabulary; we have less to learn, in many ways, than the Finn who turns to English. But all this talk about the difficulty and hardship of language larning - what seems to get forgotten is the joy of learning languages, the fact that it's supposed to be fun. Maybe an English speaker like myself can survive without a foreign language; but I think I could survive without the knowledge of algebra or skill in the trundle wheel that I learnt at school. Yet they were part of my education, just as language learning should have been; an encouragement to access a common European culture, an encouragement to interact with what is different and the same.
To give one final and persuasive answer to the pitfalls of a monolingual Britain, think back to the Iraq war of a few years ago. The special relationship is based on the common language of two very different nations, brought us into the Iraq war. Would we maybe have thought a little more deeply about our conduct - rather than instinctively looking to George W Bush - if we were able to engage with dialogue with what our European partners were saying; if we spoke their language, rather than insisting that they do ours?"
"Pandering to banks is not working either.
You cannot expect people to be loyal to electronic blips on a screen.
If a bank is bankrupt it must go out of business. It is not the job of Greek, Dutch, Irish or whoever taxpayers to bail out idiotic loans of banks that they did not themselves incur.
Until this is resolved their can be no legitimacy whatsoever amognst the creators of the European project.
Barroso etc need to realise that 450 million people in Europe do not give a f&*&*k about the bondholders of lets say Banco Santander or Dexia.
Of course in UK it is different, our hedge funds can profit mightliy from all this euro-idiocy. Just a pity they choose to store the gains offshore rather than sharing with the rest of us poor inselnaffen."
"Yes, I agree.
Never give people what they want.
Always tell them what they want."
"Yes, more of the same forever is what will see us right.
After all, the people who create the shit are obviously best placed to clean it up?"
I don't think anyone in Greece is 'pandering' to Chrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn). The vast majority are shocked that they could gain seats in the parliament. The threshold for entering parliament is 3%, so they are not some massive political force, and even the best estimates predict a top rate of 7%. This does not mean its not worrying.. because if they were to get 7% of the vote on Sunday we could end up with 20 of the feckers in parliament... and this is a party that advocates violence.. not only beating up immigrants, they also advocate land mines on the Greek/Turkey border as a means of controlling illegal immigration.
So the collusion of the political elite with global finance capitalism is merely a figment of the imagination, is it? In that case, it should be possible to quote examples of the current UK political elite's acting in ways which pose fundamental challenges to such global financial entities as the City of London, the IMF, hedge funds, and multinational corporations which squirrel assets away in tax havens. I await Jan-Werner Mueller's list of such challenges with great interest.
"Response to Bigwigandfiver, 04 May 2012 8:42pm

No but I bet the ordinary depositors who have their limited savings in these banks might.
Still fuck em eh?"
"After decades of welfare state spending and dependency, the chickens have come home to roost.
Most mainstream parties - UK Tories included - refuse to acknowledge the need to truly cut spending (not 'reduce the rate of spending increases'), reduce the deficit and the mountain of debt that will burden generations to come..
Extreme parties of all colours promise heaven on earth if we only vote for them. (Their solutions: a mix of protectionism, nationalism, nationalisation, high taxation and/or xenophobia).
The only alternative to real cut in services and a reduction of the size of the state is to print money. Which is what will soon happen - so say goodbye to your savings and pensions."
"To sum up for Jan Werner - The system we have at the moment is the best there can possibly be. The main capitalist parties are not filled with grifters pandering to some sort of ""global finance capitalism"" elite, they are filled with realists who have to live in the 'real world' and make the tough decisions (that always seem to screw everyone but those with a bunch of wealth). Anyone who disagrees with this is a populist and must be resisted. People on the left trying to break the status quo are no better than the neo nazis of the right.
Sod off Jan"
This is utter bollocks - trying to lump the 'far right' with the 'far left' as if they are all the same thing when they are clearly polar opposites is just crap journalism.
Only when up for re-election.
"Response to SirBasilZaharoff, 04 May 2012 9:54pm
Yes let's nationalise the water and power ...
privatisation has been such a massive success, has it not? monopoly anyone?"
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"Response to wombatty, 04 May 2012 10:52pm

Globalisation has incontrovertibly tipped the balance of power to what's good for business only, The method of disguising this by socialising the costs onto unlimited government and personal credit lines has been torpedoed by the financial institution element of capitalism.
Maybe people are responding to this by a divided appeal. To the far left to try and re-establish the balance of power more equitably between workers and the global corpocracy and to the far right to scale back on the importation of additional workers which might hamper the first and a feeling that they need to wrest back control of their country."
"""most observers would be hard pressed to define where exactly legitimate democratic politics stops and pernicious populism begins.""
Judging by this meandering essay this includes the author himself.
He fails to identify the current (and meagre) wave of extremism as a reaction to the EU and its practices and policies.
Perhaps if the EEC had not mutated into the anti-democratic ""rule by bureaucrat"" EU with its disastrous single currency then things might be different.
But I suspect that the writer believes the EU and rule by a centralised unelected technocracy dedicated to the continuing welfare of plutocrats to be a good thing."
"Response to dirkbruere, 04 May 2012 8:59pm
Only if we make them eat it dirk!
Good post, well said!"
"Response to Spike501, 04 May 2012 9:53pm
No but I bet the ordinary depositors who have their limited savings in these banks might. Still fuck em eh?
No - here's a novel idea, bail out the small guy (you know the one who makes stuff, provides services etc. etc.) and let the 'big' guys who fucked it up with their greed go hang. It's not beyond the wit of man, it just requires will and organisation"
Well-argued article. Would add that populists are not always wrong about everything, and serious parties are not right about everything. When these coincide, so that populists are right and others wrong on an issue, simply ridiculing them must be tactically insane – it seems to be cast-iron truth that they are telling the truth where others are lying. So by all means don't "pander", but do occasionally engage, especially when they speak for very large numbers of people.
"Populist parties have policies which are, ahem, popular with the voters.
Hence their success!"
"Populism can be defined as an ideology, political philosophy, or type of discourse. Generally, a common theme compares ""the people"" against ""the elite""
With that definition populist is someone who tries to appeal to the disgruntled people in society who believe there is a unfair elite. The name however is very misleading as many populists aren't popular and don't represent the ""people"" per say. Populist are just people that represent the unhappy people in society, they should be called the ""herders of civil unrest"" if anything"
"I was struggling a bit, trying to imagine how someone in Jan-Werner Mueller's position (born and raised in Europe, teaching at an elite university...) could be content to offer such an inanely superficial analysis of such an important issue.
(Then the penny dropped - he teaches political science.... there's no branch of the social sciences and humanities quite so intellectually debased, quite so terminally, almost surreally self-absorbed, to so little worthwhile purpose, as mainstream North American political science.)
I'm happy to ignore the fact that he seems to have so little coherent notion of how 'left wing populism' fits into his elegantly simple scheme (not least by rejecting any notion of mystic national homogeneity or common identity - hard to imagine a more absurd description of George Galloway) that he's content to offer us a half-dozen different versions of the relationship between the left and populism in the course of one short article.
My real issue is that the passage quoted, and the article as a whole, are content to pass off a description of the phenomenon as an explanation. Why do people react this way? What passions and fears are being aroused? Why do unity and moral purity exert such a powerful attraction?
These are vitally important issues. I think we can take as given that the Political Science departments of Ivy League universities won't be much help in getting to the bottom of any of them."
"Response to iruka, 05 May 2012 3:03am
there's no branch of the social sciences and humanities quite so intellectually debased, quite so terminally, almost surreally self-absorbed, to so little worthwhile purpose, as mainstream North American political science.
Lets not forget about womens studies aka gender studies ........"
"Response to SirBasilZaharoff, 04 May 2012 9:54pm
What savings, what pensions? Its all an illusion.
Except its a severely demarcated line of dejected living standards, north to south, east to west, of Europe. Its a despicable state of affairs. I am ashamed of my generation that didnt take their fathers and grandfathers to task. They all meekly succumbed to the generation robbing wishes of the American hegemony in 1945. Britain, England, us, had no debts to the war machine cancelled."
"Response to NunOfTheAbove, 04 May 2012 10:23pm

Spot-on! And with the status quo, of course, the material status & 'moral authority' of the Fourth Estate chatterati in their gated communities will also be preserved"
A little more right or left, a little less lying and a little more adherence to manifesto pledges might give us a clue!
"Response to JinWales, 05 May 2012 3:30am
Sod that choice, we'll get what we re given. And some gel haired bloke on the BBC Breakfast sofa can make small talk about electoral disillusionment with a balding Tory."
No, as I have said, if you care enough you can make a difference by joining the party. And never forget Matt Baker who sat on the sofa and asked Cameron "how do you sleep at night?"
Wellington said something like 'it is the threat of mob rule that ensures good governance'. Well, unless Europe's elites pull their finger out in the coming months, things will get wacky indeed.
What would be the worst of 'mob rule' anyway? Pearls before a different set of swine?
"Response to iruka, 05 May 2012 3:03am
Yes,inane is the word.Mueller presumably writes for a living(He who pays the piper,calls the tune).Charitably speaking,he doesn't understand the issues involved in the applying of tags and the phenomenon itself.
Briefly,Wilhelm Reich analysed mass psychology,but he did not understand the underlying forces driving the collective.Worse,for his own peace(and possibly his health),Reich did not understand politics and natural law as it manifests in humanity.Politics is Machiavellian.Natural law drives 'people' to compete.The individual is actually a misnomer.It leads people to all sorts of delusions.People are riven by divisions within and without.Only saints,Avatars and highly evolved individuated beings are beyond that.Populism as a phenomenon is a socio-political correction within a nation(-state),driven by natural/universal law through the collective group unconsciousness.In less evolved societies it is the usual modus operandus.Populism as a phenomenon sits between primitive tribalism and the fully evolved democratic nation-state.It grows in relation to waywardness at the top of the socio-political hierarchy.It manifests to the degree that the populus is psycho-socially developing while relatively speaking lagging in socio-political development,but comes to the fore as a serious political force when the top of the hierarchy either has lost the plot/its marbles or is cutting loose the lower echelons of a nation(-state)'s hierarchy.In this case,it is a culture-wide phenomenon.Though each country in the West shows a different response due to the different levels of psycho-social and socio-political development overall and the mismatch/relationship between these two factors.There are other influences at work,of course;End of Empire,the stage of spirito-psycho-social development of the Western European Caucasian Archetype,globalisation,run-away capitalism.Note;The top of the old paradigm Patriarchy in the West has lost the plot.It is being taken over by international privateers who are busy cutting everybody loose from the loot that can be taken from the West and loading as much debt onto the declining nations as the old guard nominally in control can be made to take on.The old guard esotericist/international high-finance operators,though in control of the old patriarchists,seem not to have any control over the western-based high-finance privateers,nor are they likely to gain any measure of control over the Asian high-finance wizards now taking over."
"""Parties from far right and left haunt ballots in France and Greece. But pandering to them has never really worked.""
They have emerged due the ignorance of the so called ""moderate"" politicians.
As long as the Euro remains and countries suffer going back to third world standards and the mass migration is still allowed to continue both the far left and right will continue to grow.
We will all reap what those idiots sow."
"Response to dirkbruere, 04 May 2012 8:59pm
Yeah, man, let's tear down the system! Whatever replaces it will surely be better, I mean, whoever heard of a revolutionary party screwing up a country?"
"Response to iruka, 05 May 2012 3:03am
The idea of homogeneity is so powerful because it is backed up by a host of entrenched metaphors such as GOOD IS UNMIXED/PURE, IDEA IS DISEASE and DISEASE IS INVASION, SOCIETY IS A BODY etc.etc. as explored in Washing the Brain.
However, I think the homogenists populists have a point when tax avoidance through non-dom status means unequal treatment for, say, Norman Foster, compared with the average taxpayer."
"Response to Killertomato, 05 May 2012 5:59am

Well, we've certainly seen a lot of mainstream parties help their capitalist friends 'screw up' countries, haven't we?"
"So let's look at who has done well out of the single currency. That'll be Germany and...who else? You're not German by any remote chance are you?
And you'd prefer the rest of Europe to sleepwalk its way behind corrupt EU officials...to a permanent state of recession?"
"The search for 'the people' as an homogenous whole is a sign of populism...and populism is a manifestation of democratic politics really. This is what politicians try to do...'we're all in it together', 'one nationism' etc. The creation, and maintenance, of political community defines democracy.
He noted that it is often not the real downtrodden who actively campaign, but when is that ever so? It may well be the groups afraid that they are in danger of falling out of the mainstream, the broad middle class, that are most concerned. These people can swing in broadly leftist or rightist directions.
It's perhaps the fear of exclusion, and of being forgotten, that most animates people who are attracted to populism. They sense that the political establishment, and economic elites, don't need them or won't need them in future. So it's fear of the collapse of the social compact that mobilises them - they don't believe the 'all in it together' story (correctly in my view). Outsiders such as immigrants and/or cosmopolitan elites are a sign of this collapse. I think the point many posters quite rightly make though is that the diagnosis for the causes, culprits, and the solutions, on left and right are often very different."
I would answer that the politics of conformity have not served Europe well either. Who have promised more falsely than the mainstream parties? Which center-left or center-right party has not betrayed its membership and the broader electorate that put its hopes their general election blather? In Greece, the mainstream parties, nominally of the left and right, revealed their true natures all too well. Their nakedness is there for all the world to see. They were equal tools of reaction. Jan- Werner Mueller continues the elaboration of this false consciousness for the benefit of an elite that appreciates the truckling of its nominally leftist house pets. Jan-Werner is amply awarded for such regurgitations of old bromides.
"In a way the surge of populism we witness all over the west and south of Europe is still the aftermath of WW2.After 1945 all the countries like Italy,Spain,France,GB were governed by people who created all sorts of institutions to protect the citizens and help the needy.Those measures were very generous and contributed to the well-being of their population.Unfortunately the governments of those countries kept spending more and more on those schemes even when the economy slowed down or when there was was a recession.In France(where I live)the governments steadfastedly refused to adapt to the new situation and Hollande is a good example.He wants to keep spending more and more,but there is no money.And the longer you postpone the necessary measures of austerity(a word noone likes),the more money you have to borrow,and the more difficult you make life for the future generations.
When you look at the world as a whole this problem of populism is limited to our rich European countries.Other countries are doing very well,creating jobs,increasing their standard of living,.....In fact Europeans refuse to see there is no alternative to austerity and noone is going to help them.It's hard at the same time to enforce austerity and avoid an even worse recession than the one we have now.But there's no other way to safeguard the future of our children,even at the cost of a few difficult years for the spoilt children we are."
"Response to wombatty, 04 May 2012 10:52pm

I don't agree. Far right, far left - the aims may differ, but the childish mentality is the same. In their minds, the world is essentially simple. Everything in black and white, no grey areas, radical solutions, all their fault, never used to be like this, just do x and everything will be sorted, no compromise, no complexity, I don't understand it so it must be simple.
Same shit, different bucket."
"Response to weciv01, 05 May 2012 8:11am

Of course the mainstream parties have promised falsely - that's what political parties have always done and will always do.
We can't know whether the non-mainstream parties (obviously a PC way of saying extremists) are promising falsely until they get into power and have a spell in government - and that's not happened yet in modern Europe.
But just go back a bit in history - the Nazis promised a thousand-year Reich with untold prosperity for Germany and look what state their cities were in by 1945, and the Communists promised a utopia on earth and look how that ended up everywhere it was tried.
How about them for false promises? I'll take the blather of the centrists any day.
(By the way, do I win today's ""mentioning the Nazis"" bingo and can I claim my free prize?)"
"Capitalism enters one of its periodic systemic crises - no end to boom and bust I am afraid - and the mainstream run about like headless chickens, not only not understanding what is happening, but actually incapable of understanding what is happening. The worldview is essentially conservative, unchanging and a product of historical conditions. Briefly summed up: What is, is what has always been, and always will be. This is not so much a system of thought, but more akin to a type of religious faith.
Capitalism is a permanent and interlocking set of social, political and economic arrangements and no other system is remotely conceivable.
The historical provincialism of this mindset hardly needs stating, indeed it is self evident, and of course anyone who doesn't accept what is taken to be axiomatic is dismissed as a 'populist' 'extremist' or 'crank'. Well some are, but not all. New knowledge is based upon a critique of existing knowledge. Old outdated paradigms give way to the new, but not without a monumental and often protracted struggle. But ancien regime will fight tooth and nail against any new thinking and attack on the orthodoxy of the day. But more often this extremism of the centre is simply overwhelmed by historical events which so discredit it that it becomes no longer sustainable. (see below in this connexion).
''Only idealists imagine that the world is moved forward through the free initiaive of human thought. In actual fact the thought of a society or a class does not take a single step forward except when there is extreme need to do so. Where it is at all possible old ideas are adapted to new facts. We speak frankly if we say that all classes have not shown decisive initiative except when history has thrashed them with its heavy crop. Had things been different, would people have allowed the imperailist war (1914-1918) to happen? After all, the war drew nearer under the eyes of everyone, like two trains hurtling towards each other on a single track. But the peoples' remained silent, watched, waited, and went on living the everyday, conservative lives. The fearful upheaval of the imperialist war were needed for certain changes to be brought into the consciousness and into social life. The people of Russia overthrew the Romanovs and took power ... In Germany they got rid of the Hohenzollerns ... The war was needed for these changes to take place, the war with its tends of millions of dead, maimed and wounded. What a clear proof this is of how conservative and slow to move is human thought, how stubbornly it clings to the past, to everything that is known, familiar and ancestral-until the next blow of the scourge.'' (Leon Trotsky - 1924).
Populist? Certainly. But more incisive than any mainstream interpretation.
With a mainstream totally bereft of ideas it becomes clear that the future is going to be very different from the past, and of necessity it has to be. It will be interesting to say the least."
"This is also a defining characteristic of fascism.
In which case it is utterly disingenuous to bracket a democratic socialist like Mélenchon with fascists like Le Pen, Wilders, Jobbik, and the Golden Dawn movement in Greece.
Yes, fascism is no the rise in Europe, as was the case in the 1930s, and for the same reasons - namely the rigorous and blind application of a failed economic paradigm.
Until we abandon the neo-liberal shock doctrine currently being applied in Europe, we will continue to create the preconditions for a fascist revolution."
"Ooops.
...fascism is on the rise...."
Good. Is dragging Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin up from the dead as strawmen your answer to everything? How are you different from the Spanish Inquisition who claimed that anything that did not conform to the dictates of the old monarchy smacked of Heresy or Protestantism. As for a prize, I grant you one for being the most rank conformist whose only answer is to rave about Nazis(or insert Communists) rather than dealing with reality. Cowards tend to accuse those who wish to do things of being overly aggressive or causing trouble. The same people are the ones who took the Nuremberg Defense(since you like those analogies), namely that they were only following orders, as their excuse for what they did or failed to do when the Third Reich was around. I doubt that you differ from them, aside from not being in their particular situation. Enjoy your prize!
"Response to Scipio1, 05 May 2012 9:15am
Leon Trotsky is a bit stale as a source for anything. He really was not different from Lenin, or subsequently Stalin, apart from failing to come out on top."
Blimey.
"We talk of being wary of ""pandering"" to clown parties like these but accept normal political from the likes of the Labour Party - a party who murdered a million Muslims just to internationalise their oil.
As gross as the Stalinists and anti-Immigration crowd are, the actual genocidal parties of today are mainstream and middle-of-the-ground."
"So, to summarise:
Populism is bad, because it offers people what they want that the current political elite can't or won't deliver.
Yup, bad, BAD populism."
"Response to Scipio1, 05 May 2012 9:15am
Quite.And Trotsky was not the only one to see how it works.I believe that Nietzsche had a few pertinent things to say about the human condition.It has been said that people will only learn the hard way.Unfortunately,this is proved right again and again.Yet,there is no reason,other than Tamas,for this to remain the ruling principle.We have known for thousands of years that intelligence and love may be used to overcome this debilitating aspect of moral decay and mental sloth.That's why the writing appears on the wall.That people may take note and start thinking for themselves rather than being led like lambs to slaughter by Judas leaders.In the West,the Right may be reacting to the collective unconsciousness,or it may be used as a tool by the dividers and rulers.More likely both.The Left,likewise.The clique which steers these Machiavellian machination must reckon to be able to control and ride out the evolutionary surge to come,and come back to establish full exploitative control once again(If they even could be bothered).
Neither the Left or the Right have any clue how to go about (re)gaining sovereignty and control of the nation-state's affairs,let alone run it on a permanent basis.The current squeeze looks to be permanent.Investment is increasingly relocated to the new world,which has plenty of potential for growth left(plaintive bleatings by relatively or outright comfortable western gravy train environmental activists permitting).
The see-sawing between Tweedledum and Tweedledee is a sure way to allow capital to be sucked out of the old West,some of it to be returned to buy more control,as well as force the disenfranchised to go green,while being squeezed to the bone by the better situated who,of course,wish to maintain the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.So the conditions of suffering and exploitation which the West visited upon the rest of the world looks like coming home to roast the children and children's children,yeah,unto the third and fourth generation.So we have to deal with our Karma and wake up from our Tamas way of not thinking-A perfect combination."
"Well put.
When populists do get into power they have to face reality or worse their successors are left to be derided and condemned as they struggle to clear up the mess. Imagine if Greece or the UK really did pull out of the EU. Certainly the EU would not be keen to have them back: it would be far more manageable to keep them as associate client states that have to comply with the rules, pay their dues and are not there to constantly put a spanner in the works."
"""Populism"" rises when ""proper"" ruling elites screw up.
Which is one reason it is so hard to define - and - can be both the right and left. There is not much point in trying to label ""populists"" as either trend. That is only using semantically loaded words to discredit one or the other.
Basically, populists are fed up with what is offered as their ""representatives"", and are looking for an alternative."
"Response to Spike501, 04 May 2012 9:53pm
Save the depositors let the banks go. It's as simple as that. Governments could - could - protect depositors and mortgage holders etc without pumping billions and billions into the financial system. They won't.
And if, like me, you believe that our financial institutions are still very possibly at risk of collapse despite the billions and billions thrown there way you can begin to worry that the trillions thrown at the finance sector by governments is the biggest folly of all time."
"The problem is that populism is dangerous and leads to all sorts of nasty consequences, we only have to look at history to know that. But unfortunately screwing over the majority of people to protect the assets of a very wealthy few - basically saving the creditors at all costs - always leads to populism, outright revolution or some form of social collapse. It never works and yet that is what all mainstream parties are telling us will work.
They are telling us that the majority of us just need to keep getting that little bit poorer for the next five, ten, fifteen years and that once the mighty are saved and okay, they will rain down credit on our grateful heads again and the economy will bloom once more. They are dead wrong.
I said two and three years back that this would happen! That we'd get extremist politics raising its ugly head and a lot of people laughed at the suggestion. But it has happened and if the economic woes continue this is likely only the tip of the iceberg of what may come in the next decade. And if things do get really bad I know who I will hold to account. Blair, Cameron, thatcher, Bush, Clinton, Obama, Merkel, Le Garde, Sarkozy and the whole bloody idiotic lot of them who let the developed worlds wealth and industry wither on the vine so that a few mega corporations could make even more money. They will literally have blood on their hands if populations used to a certain standard of living turn violent when that standard of living is shockingly eroded. Because they bought into the economic arguments that let it happen.
For me, being sick, and therefore one of the 'weak', populism is a terrifying thought but there's no use railling against it if we don't understand how and why it gained traction."
If governments represented the people they were supposed to represent and stop representing failed capitalists, people might not be dirven to the extremes.
"Response to Spike501, 04 May 2012 9:53pm


I get the impression you believe in capitalism. If so, then you should accept people lose money when bad investments are made.
I can't get my breath when it comes to people who support capitalism, want socialist intervention when capitalism fails them. Capitalists always end up the biggest believers in socialism when it is their money going down the capitalist drain."
"Response to lessofyourlip, 05 May 2012 8:58am

I'm beginning to understand. You mean like 'the markets', 'free market', 'austerity'... that kind of thing?"
"Response to SirBasilZaharoff, 04 May 2012 9:54pm
I don't even understand how such an economically wrong post got so many rec's - is Conservative home on this thread or something?
We pay in more than enough taxes and NI for our welfare bill (most of which is pensions by the way but i doubt you want them cutting to the bone, just that nasty stuff that pays out to the 'scroungers') the NHS etc. It is being wasted due to tons of our taxes now being used to prop up an ailing private sector. (38p in the pound BEFORE the fianancial meltdown went to supporting private corps).
So the issue isn't that we can't afford welfare and the NHS etc, it's that too much money is being taken by failing private sector concerns - because governments are hand in glove with them and that my friend is called corporatism.
Real cuts in services and a reduction of the state will lead to very serious consequences and it is people who keep parrotting the neo liberal line like yourself who are helping populism and extremism to rise."
"Response to princesschipchops, 05 May 2012 11:15am

Yep. It's ironic isn't it that capitalism, who apparently hate socialism, are the biggest beneficiary of social intervention."
"Far Left
Far Right
Jingoistic concepts
Large power groups control our lives Globally Who owns the media ? the Banking system ?
Who cares ?
A few, .......the rest chow down and consumrise their lives only stopping to moan about the price of fish"
"Response to spartarotterdam, 05 May 2012 11:01am
Sparta
For once we agree , however many of us real capitalists believe the banks should have been allowed to fail.
The bank bailouts where the biggest transfer of wealth from the poor & middle class to the very wealthy in history"
"Response to Sanl, 05 May 2012 11:29am

You ain't seen nothin' yet."
"Yup. Why give the people what they want?
Better to give them what you think is best for them. Better to be ruled by unelected technocrats. Better to have the agenda dictated by a bunch of otherwise-unemployable intellectuals and media-types.
In fact, let's withdraw universal suffrage and appoint 'guardians' who will rule benignly and draft sensible laws without having to bother themselves with the petty prejudices and concerns of ordinary people who obviously can't see the big picture from that far down in the gutter.
Oh wait, I think we've already done that."
I urge everyone to vote for populist & fringe parties of the left & right - the main political parties of Europe have failed us all - just full of career corrupt politicians
"Response to weciv01, 05 May 2012 9:52am

Wrong."
"Oh dear
Another article from a northern European on Greece
Yawn yawn
Still, if Greece chooses a government on Sunday that is not to the liking of those who believe themselves to be 'more fiscally responsible' then we know what they will do, since they've done it all before"
Socialist countries top all polls for health, wealth, cohesion and happiness.
£Trillions is now in tax havens introduced by Thatcher/Reagan. Out matching the National debt. Biggest transfer in history. The bank 'crisis' was another excuse.
"Response to Streatham, 05 May 2012 11:03am

Well yes, that is certainly part of what I mean.
The belief that the free market will somehow magically sort everything out if left to its own devices, and that the state should be reduced to a bare minimum, is just as childish as the belief that everything must be centralised in the hands of the state, or that the highest value in society is represented by the nation.
I'm not partisan in this - I hate naive free-market libertarianism as much as I hate hard-line communism and isolationist nationalism. They're all la-la land ideologies based on a black and white view of the world, and they appeal to morons. As I said before - same shit, different buckets."
To a lot of people, any political party that holds that the unemployed, the weak, the poor and the needy should suffer years of misery to pay off the indulgent stupidities of an unregulated, immoral, over-protected and corrupt baking sector is already an extremist, loony-fringe party. And the local bright spark who proposes that these fat-cat elites be shown the finger is the one who seems centre-ground and solid.
"Folks like Jan-Werner Mueller never accepted the idea of universal equality. This elitism blinds them to a simple reality, and that is that the rise of populism on both ends of the political spectrum is in response to a center that has become so morally and intellectually corrupt as to be unsustainable.
The pernicious doctrine that Jan-Werner Mueller tries to scare us with is not inherently part of populism. Let me offer a quite different definition of populism: It is a pragamatic movement of the people, born of the necessity of setting organized power against organized power in a technical society.
Are populist movements succeptible to pernicious ideologies such as ""an image of a pure, homogeneous people,"" juxtaposed to ""those who are not properly part of the national body politic""? Absolutely. But tribal nationalism is not a characteristic of all populist movements, as Jan-Werner Mueller would have us believe when he proclaims that

In order to demonize the people, Jan-Werner Mueller conflates the people with the mob. The people then become the problem. The problem, however, is not the people, but the alliance of the mob and capital."
"To grumpyoldman
Mélenchon is not a democratic socialist at all.He is at the head of the front de gauche,a group that is dominated by the communist party.Mélenchon gave Cuba as an example of democracy.And don't forget that the french communist party applauded when the Soviet tanks invaded Hungary and Tchecoslovakia.
Then your attack against neo-liberalism is totally absurd.The liberal system is florishing all over the world even in China.India and most south-east Asian countries are getting richer at an incredible speed.
That's the problem with European ideologists:they forget that the ""crisis"" is a rich european countries' phenomenom and is due to the selfishness of spoilt children who ignore the woes they visit on future generations(someone will have to pay our debt)and don't understand that they are no longer at the centre of the world."
"The rise of right populist parties is a symptom of a degenerating civic culture. Over time, mainstream parties, not to mention tabloids, have foolishly reproduced the Islamophobic, racist discourses of fringe parties. What better way to trash your opponents and steal votes from the BNP?
This can actually be said to be one of the successes of contemporary fascism. Bit by bit, they, with the assistance of a sympathetic media, have made theirs' the dominant narrative with respect to immigration and race. Those who attempt to enter the country and gain access to Britain's resources (a hereditary priviledge befitting only the 'indigenous' Britons) must be variously deported, imprisoned, assaulted or detained in appalling conditions. Spare no man, woman or child.
It's funny that perhaps a decade or so ago, to say we should do away with the Geneva conventions or that Britain should not be answerable to the European Court of Human Rights would have rightly as extreme"
"A partly perceptive article but no mention in Britain of the Socialist Workers' Party that as the International Socialists were probably the most intellectually coherent of the non-Labour party & non-CPGB Left during the Sixties & Seventies; seemingly to have a disproportionate influence in 'Occupy' in this country than other groups?
One reason for 'popularism' is to do with the perception correct or not that certain minorities have either privileged access to the media and state (government & parliament) and not others; for example charities dealing with women and children are fine but not those representing men or fathers that are seen as beyond the pale, if this term can be used in 'PC Britain'. One day someone who is wealthy will enter a pharmacy in England and refuse to pay for a prescription arguing that it is against the European Convention on Human Rights, in that only the English and not the other nations that are legally part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain have to pay it because England does not have its own parliament that could have prevented such discrimination, are arrested and tried etc, etc. So many people living in England have to pay what is a discriminatory tax and costing £7.35 (?) on each item too. This is an example of a majority, 84% of the population being liable either themselves, their families or their friends paying unfairly. No wonder a HRs lawyer is taking this to ECHR.
To use the old adage, it is the tail waging the dog, hence making majorities or large minorities feel that they like discriminated small minorities but without media or political elites sympathy, only the contempt or dumb ignorance of metropolitan elites which can and do blithely ignore them..until? Is this one reason for the low electoral turnout in England?
The old canard that everything is the fault of the English will not do. If if we were to use that about contemporary Germany concerning Europe we would be regarded at best as unsophisticated or at worse as racist, so it should be the same for the English regarding the UK.
So 'populism' will be popular and if the dweedle-dum Tories were to lose the next election to dweedle-dee Labour for a few years as in the seventies, will 'populism' return unless they learn the lesson of the ignored?"
"While some (what Jonathan Schell called a ""mass minority"" or what Andrew M. Lobaczewski called ""pathocrats,"" who amount to something like 15 or 20% of any given population) do indeed react this way, I do not believe this reaction is typical of a majority of the people. That's why it's important to make the distinction between the people and the mob.
Jan-Werner Mueller seems to be a victim of the Freudian pop psychology that the US elite have popularized and used so effectively to their advantage. I would point you to the following interview:

An equally intriguing question to the one you pose is why the majority of good people set back and let a minority of pathocrats seize control of the levers of power."
"Response to variation31, 05 May 2012 2:01pm
Except the far right also blame the poor, the unemployed and the desperate. Even moreso than the mainstream neoliberal LibLabCon. A cursory glance at the BNP and UKIP's welfare, education and industrial relations policies should tell you all you need to know where they stand. If you are too weak to defend yourself, you are an undesirable.
Fascists are social darwinists at heart. It's the reason violent criminals and sociopaths gravitate so easily towards reactionary parties."
"Response to jalte, 05 May 2012 8:25am

So the workers of Europe must reduce their living standards to those of these workers, and be deprived of their political, civil and human rights as these workers have been:

just so the lords of global capital can party on like never before?"
"Response to lessofyourlip, 05 May 2012 9:08am

And the devotees of Adam Smith promised that the pursuit of individual self-interest will miraculously produce a rational distribution of goods and service: a perfect, well-functioning society.
And look how that ended up everywhere it was tried."
"Alain Badiou on the anti-populism of the elites - http://www.lemonde.fr/election-presidentielle-2012/article/2012/05/05/le-racisme-des-intellectuels-par-alain-badiou_1696292_1471069.html
(In French, but you can Google-translate it)"
Link
"Academics always seem to spoil things.
Populism is Alf Garnet."
"Response to WestTexan, 05 May 2012 4:28pm

I don't quite understand your point.
Do you think I'm some sort of free-market headbanger just because I think communism is shit? Because I can assure you I am most certainly not. See my post at 1:53 p.m.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not having a go at you, and I don't mean to be offensive to you. I genuinely don't quite understand where you're coming from. If you think the political adherents of extreme free-market dogma are nutjobs, then I'm one hundred percent with you.
I'm a centrist - I'm not really left or right, I just despise populist extremism for the way it infantilises people - offering simple solutions to complex problems, displaying an inability to recognise that things are not simple. It doesn't matter what type of extremism - political, economic, religious, left, right, up, down, whatever. I have no time for any of it. It fails to take account of the complexities of our world, it appeals to morons, and it is ultimately destructive.
Anyway, I appear to be on the wrong thread - one where if you don't like one extreme you must therefore like the opposite extreme. So I think I'll just fuck off and leave you all to it. No hard feelings. Enjoy."
"If populism is in the dock then the ""mainstream"" politicians are the co-accused.
Let's hear your defence first, Mr. Mueller, for the aggrandisement of the faceless eurocrats, the blithe disdain for the concerns of those at the sharp end of uncontrolled immigration, the desecration of democracy for the sake of the beloved euro, currency of deluded fools."
"variation31
5 May 2012 2:01PM
To a lot of people, any political party that holds that the unemployed, the weak, the poor and the needy should suffer years of misery to pay off the indulgent stupidities of an unregulated, immoral, over-protected and corrupt baking sector is already an extremist, loony-fringe party. And the local bright spark who proposes that these fat-cat elites be shown the finger is the one who seems centre-ground and solid.
Quite so.
What is more, these sparks will increase, as will their constituency.
The question is what will be the consequence of the rise and rise of anti-establishment sentiment?
The below is my personal list of alternative scenarios.
1. Not much, or simply more of the same general decline, division and disharmony.
2. A revolution resulting in not much, but still leading eventually to state repression, economic catastrophe, and social breakdown on an easily imaginable scale.
3. A revolution resulting more immediately in state repression, economic catastrophe, and social breakdown on an unimaginable scale.
4. No revolution, therefore world government resulting in genocide, state repression, economic catastrophe, and selective social breakdown very much of an Orwellian imagination.
5. Genuine or otherwise divine intervention,or 'Act of God' of some kind, resulting in biblically prophesied genocide, ultimately resulting in only HE knows what. Whoever or whatever HE be.
6. A world war or something equally murderous, which is the usual method by which these crooks cover their bloodied tracks as best as they can. Thus leading to a world government of what little of which remains, followed by see 4.
Not a happy set of alternatives, all either bad enough, bad, very bad, or so bad that it truly defies description.
None of these alternatives are popular, neither should they be. What is undoubtedly popular is FREEDOM, with a fair bit of increasing prosperity in tow, for most if not for all. Although the majority would be quite content for their situation to stop getting forever worse as far as their freedom and general prosperity are concerned.
Is it simply too much to ask and expect, given advancements in modern technologies and other scientific, educational, and industrial developments that are rulers should be fairly able to provide for us a little bit more of both FREEDOM and prosperity every year?
YES, it most surely is possible, so why have our owners so clearly forsaken us?
Marx was correct in one thing, there is undoubtedly a class struggle going on. However what he failed to understand, predict or honestly report was that the ruling class are the MARXISTS every bit as much as they are the CAPITALISTS. Or if they had any sense at all, which they undoubtedly had, given that these people had access to the finest minds money can buy, would swiftly become or then later, as they already utterly controlled the former.
The class struggle is therefore not between the far right and the far left, socialism or capitalism. The eternal struggle is, as it has always been, between both discontented sides and the establishments utterly contrived, approved, authorized, cosseted BBC/MSM defined middle, good and evil, us and them, freedom and slavery, truth and untruth, penultimately between life and death, and ultimately between God and the Devil.
No prizes for belatedly working out which side all of our political representatives have always taken, sooner or later.
You don't get to where these people have got, still less stay there by REALLY bitting the largely invisible hand that has been feeding, indoctrinating, nurturing, dividing, manipulating, and generally otherwise fucking with your mind, body and spirit since shortly after the moment of your conception."
"So the Front de Gauche and other ""far left"" parties are not populist according to this defintion then are they. So why does this article discuss them as though they were? And why say ""populist"" when what you really mean is nationalist or conservative?
That

is worth remembering, of course, and you can even convince yourself that they, especially, have totalitarian tendencies if you like. But elitist ""moderate"" or ""liberal"" politicians are not pluralists out of principle, they are pluralists to the extent that it serves their class interests, and that pluralism is effectively thrust upon them.
No, populism, left or right, is not the panacea to the disease of elitism that is destroying society - indeed there is every reason to regard it as a manifestation of it. But excuse me if I don't feel a massive sense of sympathy for these poor, misunderstood elitists and their allies, whining that people don't like them any more. Boo hoo."
"Never mind the FALSE PROMISES, what about the false premise of the left leaning media that Hollande is going to scrap the austerity measures?
His own supporters don't believe that, yet correspondents on here are peddling that myth like its going to be a game changere. Any one who believes the oputright lies that some media outlets are putting out are being conned and sold a pup.
Hollande is merely going to add a few aspects for growth as a footnote. Hollande has actually acknowledged work needs to be done to bring down the debt and right the economy. He even agrees that much of the cuts are justified."
"Response to ub313, 05 May 2012 5:43pm

Nail Head Whack away!
My only comment is that in the UK we have one elite in power and the elite telling us they are nasty......
Nauseating in the extreme."
"Response to lessofyourlip, 05 May 2012 5:03pm
First you say:

And then later you say:

But you must understand that extreme free-market dogma is centrist these days. As the philosopher John Gray puts it here, it is the ""West's ruling myth.""
Or as the evolutionary biologist David Sloan Wilson puts it here:

And if we look at society and politics instead of economics, the centrists hardly fare any better. To get some idea of the the unbelievable extent to which racism and irrationality have come to dominate centrist society and politics, give a listen to these:

The centrist economy, polity and society has become completely dysfunctional."
"Response to Sanl, 05 May 2012 1:15pm

There's something to be said for doing this just to piss off the kind of mainstream politicians and propagandists who inform us that by not voting for them we are committing some heinous transgression, but unfortunately every reason to think that ""populist"" and fringe movements that offer to use the system to resolve all of the problems the system causes could well end up making things worse.
It's time to cut the tumour out and cauterise the wound."
"Response to stilt, 05 May 2012 3:42pm
The United Kingdom has devolved government in three of the nations of the UK after the electors in those nations voted in referenda on whether to have devolved government in their countries,the decision on prescription charges in Scotland was taken by a democratically elected government using the powers at its disposal, it is for the population of England to decide through the same democratic process how it resolves issues such as prescription charges,devolution means devolving power from the centre ,in Scotland's case to its re convened parliament.Devolution was only put to the electorate in Scotland because of a demand for it ."
Haven't our European neighbours been down this road before in choosing populist parties in times of economic distress.
"Response to billforsyth, 05 May 2012 7:04pm

As a matter of fact, they have. An entire wave of democratic revolutions swept over Europe in the late twentieth century.
They began in southern Europe with the overthrow of the Greek junta in 1974, of the autocracy in Portugal that same year, and the transition to democracy in Spain in 1975. The long parade of revolutions that followed included, among others, the Solidarity movement in Poland in the 1980s. the collapse of the Soviet Union and its empire in the late 1980s and early '90s, the fall of Slobodan Milosevicz in 2003, the ""Rose Revolution"" in Georgia in 2005.
Unfortunately, social questions were left on the table in the new world of market globalization, which, having proved unable or unwilling to deal with them, now faces a powerful backlash. Most tended to look no longer at the French, Russian, or Chinese model of revolution but rather at one another or the American Revolution. All were largely nonviolent, deliberately foregoing revolutionary violence, not to speak of terror. Again and again, movements won over the hearts and minds of national majorities, depriving repressive governments of legitimacy, and again and again these governments collapsed."
What a thoroughly dishonest and misleading heading. The far right and the far left are not equivalent, nor are they necessarily populist. Equating real democracy and social justice with oppression and bigotry suits nobody except the three centrist parties, which are desperate to prevent voters from actually having the power to change things and kick out the ruling financial elites.
Replying to 'billforsyth'. You are correct up to a point but you do miss the point that Scotland plays the disadvantaged/persecuted card with little if any justification unlike Northern Ireland and Wales. The Act of Union of with Scotland of 1707 was freely negotiated unlike the Act of Union with Ireland of 1801 and the pseudo Act of Union with Wales (rather incorporation in 1533/4). Scotland has adeptly played the minority card despite their separate religious settlement, law and education systems to that of the rest of the UK. It seems that the governing elite in England can quite easily be guilt tripped unlike the 'ordinary' people but if Alex Salmond obtains independence for Scotland then England will have its own parliament again. It might happen if Labour succeeds Tories and both ignore English grievances in the medium term. Where England could play the minority card is via the EU. We shall see!
"Response to ITowers, 05 May 2012 6:49am
I know, man, time to elect communists or nazis! After all, things can't get worse, can they?"
That puts them on even ground with the status quo.
"What tosh.
The mainstream parties across Europe have sold their Countries out, so what should the Centre Parties continue to hold sway?
As the Greek and Irish 'bailouts' show, there is no EU willingness to support an alternative to austerity and is just about assisting those who lent in the first place. The EU is doing nothing to support growth - let alone sustainable growth. This is slash and burn; the European social model being torn up before our eyes."
"Response to stilt, 05 May 2012 9:07pm
Just how is Scotland playing the disadvantaged/persecuted card the demand for devolution came about as repeatedly Scotland was governed by governments it did not elect with policies it neither voted for or wanted, all governments of the UK are decided on in England that is the arithmetical fact if you have a tory government in your country pursuing tory policies and ideologies it is because the electorate of England voted for it, desiring an end to the union of Scotland and England does not involve victim hood or playing any such card it is about putting forward the proposal that sovereign government is preferable to devolved government as for the English feeling aggrieved then that is surely a matter for them and their politicians I would not presume to tell other people how to govern themselves it is none of my business,the debate in Scotland with regard to independence is between those who want it and those who do not it is not up to politicians in Scotland to debate what England should do."
"Response to WestTexan, 05 May 2012 8:12pm
Or they could always vote them into power as the Germans did in 1933"
"Response to iruka, 05 May 2012 3:03am


Doesnt that apply to all social sciences? In fact isnt the phrase a contradiction in terms?"
"Response to OneTop, 05 May 2012 10:05pm
No it doesn't, as your comment on a free internet forum proves. Electing an extreme party to solve our problems is like fixing a broken leg by covering it in napalm and setting it on fire."
Theres an awful lot of waffle being expended in this thread, when the issues are fairly simple. If the 'popularists' had been listened to during the immigration debates of the late 60s, and had been allowed to make their case during the drive for monetary union of the EC/EU in the early 90s, we wouldnt be in half the mess we are. It isnt necessarily 'popularists' who are the problem, but ideologues, and it's the ideologues who formulated the concepts of multiculturalism and European political union, who are more closely related to the architects of Nazism and Marxism than their opponents. Anyone who does believe that the cohesiveness of the nation state is the best platform for stability (and I'm aware there are some here who dont) is aware that because of the egregious mistakes of recent history, and the complete inability of the ruling elites to even acknowledge them, we are going to be faced with some hard choices pretty soon.
"Response to billforsyth, 05 May 2012 10:24pm

Since the Christian theologian Reinhold Niebuhr does such a marvelous job of rebutting your argument, I will cite him:"
"Response to ITowers, 05 May 2012 1:27pm

Having been a member of an informal college drinking gang that called itself the Ramon Mercador Fan Club after Trotsky's assassin, my anti-Trotskyism may at least partly be the last fragment of my old Communist Party loyalties. It looks significant, though, that the favoured messiah of the ultra-left is the one who can never be discredited, because (a) he never rose to supreme power; (b) he was exiled and murdered by the brute who did.
Josef Stalin, Mao Tse-tung, Pol Pot, Enver Hoxha, Erich Honecker, Kim Il-sung, old uncle Ceausescu and all: the heroes of Actually Existing Socialism achieved the opportunity to become discredited and seized it with both hands. But cuddly old teddy-bear Leon Trotsky, the butcher of the Red Terror and the Kronstadt Revolt, the martyr of communism's unfulfilled hopes, maintains his romantic appeal for much the same reason as Bonnie Prince Charlie. The leader that never was can never disgrace his cause.
I'm happy to leave the far left that comfort blanket to cling to while you're waiting for the indefinitely deferred great day, certain that everything will work out all right next time and communism will never again result in oppression, famine and slaughter. You're dead right, it won't. But not for the reason you hope."
"Response to WestTexan, 06 May 2012 12:56am
How does this rebut my argument the article is about populist political movements garnering support in European elections many of them espousing extreme right wing ideologies and scape goating individuals and organisations for the economic woes of the continent, and many of them achieving electoral success ,as the piece says the architects of these movements are not the down trodden they are not the dispossessed they claim to speak for them and their concerns, they use the democratic process to lend themselves legitimacy they claim to speak for the overwhelming majority who have been exploited by various insidious usually foreign or treacherous minorities effete and rich or base and uncouth ,for the aristo's of eighteenth century France read the EU and its satellite governments, for the perennial and duplicitous Jew it's now the Moslem or the Gypsy the other the stranger the one to be feared the one who will take what is not his to take . it is not an irrational or hypothetical fear of those populist parties it is not a conspiracy by cynical self interested fat cats, rather it is real experience of having been here before as Isaid to January 1933 in Germany."
"Response to WestTexan, 06 May 2012 12:56am
Well,Reinhold Niebuhr did analyse it very well.Better than the Coln Bandit,... who was cut off from pointed comment rather quick.I never did read Niebuhr,nor did a great many others in Western Europe(on the evidence provided by the facts as they stand).However,Niebuhr did either not analyse the human condition well enough,or the people that read and understood and agreed and agreed to try and pass on the message by trying to explain to others,were too few to make a difference.There is a crucial element passed over in these debates,which partly explains why people seem to get no further in their efforts to delete injustice from society.People are missing something.They have been told time and again,but,mostly not understanding the workings of the human mind,they are unable to take it on board.So,all is flux,yes?Marx said so.Modern science says so.People,people's and societies,nations need to constantly evolve so as to survive.However,to provide stability essential to human functioning,with all its trappings,Tamas is part of nature's design to make it work.The much maligned elites who control high-finance,the economy,politics and people's minds are in all likelihood also running along certain ruts,but they are just more clever about it.This is another of nature's law.Survival of the fittest,much maligned by people who do not make the grade.Now,don't think I don't agree with Niebuhr.I'm no Ayn Rand,whom I consider a vomitous read(and I've only ever read about her writing).The point;By far the majority(democracy)choose(or otherwise)to forget certain facts.Say,how nature and human nature determine what happens.The people on top are simply better at understanding and exploiting human nature and the underlying laws of nature.Of course,the majority of people prefer peace,law and order,prosperity,health,etc.That's why they keep voting for the elite which delivers.From time to time a large minority gets fed up with the injustices and the suffering which inevitably accompany the relative prosperity of the majority,and,as the cycle continues,the elite which delivers the goods tends to grow in numbers and expansive living,thereby increasing the minority which is left behind and the relative poverty and suffering overall and for each individual so affected.Hence,the elite,which is more switched than the rest of society(that's why they are on top)can see the writing on the wall,they know even before they can see it happening because they learn from history,unlike the people who simply go about their own business.So the elite at some stage start plundering what they know is a sinking ship.They have other fish to fry,other peoples and nation-states to organise and exploit.One more thing,individuals as well as groupings of whatever size and nature have to go through essential stages of experience to learn enough to proceed to the next level of understanding.People,we know from experience,strongly resist learning from their experiences,as individuals and as groupings.People,as a rule,we know from experience and can see it happening every day again,will not even learn from the severest hardship dealt to them and their kind,even when all the knowledge to read and understand the workings of nature and the human mind is at their fingertips.The socialists,many of whom are genuine,believe in some ideology which they believe is best,with all the political/theoretical paraphernalia,to run a nation-state.Rarely are they able to do it for any length of time by common consent.But they never learn.Tamas.If people can understand that they grasp some ideology and then wrongly believe they have done enough,and can go back to their own personal concerns,sinking back into unthinking semi-comatose states of mind,and they are willing to change,they are half-way there.We in the West are nearing the end of a cycle.To survive 'as we are',we need a quantum leap to escape our natural fate-as a society,but also as individuals.If,as individuals,we wish to go on in the same old rut(any new rut is an old rut when at the end of the cycle) our society and its nation-states will go the way of all flesh.We are rotting and not renewing,because the elite who is making things work at the level of the nation-state and big business is cleaning up and putting us back into our natural state,as a society-feudality,it is,as yet,our natural mindset as a people.So we have to help each other change our mindset.But if people are not willing to take that individual quantum leap,then the avatars will move on.It's a free world.People will be hoist with their own petard,time and again."
"Populism is the label used to discredit the politics of protest. Anyone who has been involved with mainstream politics ""knows"" that there are no simple solutions. The populist refuses to believe this and, typically, will promise to cut the gordian knot of constitutional democracy.
So far, history teaches us that the mainstream is right, and that the protesters only keep their reputations when they fail to gain power.
When a politician who campaigns on the premise that things cannot possibly get any worse gets to power, then things will get worse. But it will never be their fault."
Thatcher Blair and Cameron fit the description of populist and differ from Respect, UKIP and English Democrats because they belong to established parties. Their false promises of right left alternatives challenged and changed the parties they were members of and didn’t need to create their own. Blair’s New Labour is as good an example of it as I can think of. He offered an alternative to Conservatism and stood on a platform of populist lies because he pursued Thatcher’s Neo liberalism policies every bit as vociferous as she did. Cameron populist cited caring Conservative. Thatcher's right wing nastiness consigned to the dustbin along with greed is good ethos. Poor and working class treated fairly and the regions important as the South East. Need I go on to explain his false promises. Populist politicians pander to those they perceive will vote for them- ergo they’re six of one and half a dozen of the other.
"Response to WestTexan, 06 May 2012 12:56am
Your quote from Reinhold Niebuhr, certainly goes a long way to defining and encapsulating the argument from the Left (ie those usually proposing revolutionary change in pursuit of 'justice'). However, it completely ignores the obvious counter, that those opposing such change are not always doing so for selfish self interest, but out of a belief that those proposing such change are fools, proposing remedies that will be counter productive or disingenuously seeking ways to become the new heirarchy.
The American Revolution you quote is a case in point. It certainly defined the Enlightenment concept of liberty into the governance of an English speaking society, but the subsequent evolution of jurisprudence on either side of the Atlantic might suggest that the differences werent quite so vast anyway. An alternate argument might be that a group of New England businessmen, frustrated among other things by the tendency of the Crown to honour treaties with the local Indians, saw and took an opportunity to replace the ruling elite with negligable impact on the poor and destitute
Someone else also made the interesting point that those drawn to Fascism are effectively social darwinists. There may be something to that, but the same argument applies; you dont have to be a fascist to believe that many of the attempts to enforce 'equality' (such as consideration of social background in university admission) are counter productive, damaging to the incentive to work, and unfair to those who do sacrifice and work for their children's success"
"Response to JacobJonker, 05 May 2012 5:00am


Rightwing populism just is tribalism: you might be interested to spend a little time in the comments section of Fox News or the Telegraph."
"Response to danielwaweru, 06 May 2012 6:58pm

How are the comments in the Guardian and Huff post any different? Especially when discussing the comments on Fox News and the Telegraph"
"Response to danielwaweru, 06 May 2012 6:58pm
like the new avatar by the way, it looks a bit more 'street'"
"Response to YourProductHere, 06 May 2012 7:05pm


Commenters here are far less likely (than Telegraph commenters) to devolve into sheer group hatred, even when discussing the opposition; they're more welcoming of criticism or counterargument, and they're somewhat more willing to change their minds when there's solid counter-evidence on the table.
(And note that this is ins spite of a slight skew in the sample: the proportion of rightwingers commenting on the Guardian is almost certainly larger than the proportion of lefties on Telegraph threads.)"
"Response to YourProductHere, 06 May 2012 7:07pm


Hehe, thx ;)"
"Response to danielwaweru, 06 May 2012 6:58pm
If you'd read Wilhelm Reich,and understood what he explained about the fascist(Leftist or Rightist) mindset/psychology,you would know the difference between primitive tribalism and populism in the sense of populism,as a phenomenon,under discussion here."
"Response to YourProductHere, 06 May 2012 6:45pm
How are some more social Darwinist than others?Apart from saints and yogis/hermits,is not everybody a social/anti-social Darwinist,passively or actively so?It is more a question of what concepts commentators and the body politic can make the thinking people accept and unthinking people believe.I see the Left as social Darwinist no less than the Right/Far Right.They have different theories,propaganda(perhaps),methods,excuses and so on-The underlying principle is no different from the other,or anyone organising/activating/protesting.I saw that comment somewhere,failed to pick up on it then.Darwinism was never complete,as far as I'm aware.Division and competition are everywhere,at all levels,as is cooperation.Without these opposites nothing would be.Everything exists due to a tension of opposing forces.Survival of the fittest is what comes out of it in the struggle between temporary composed ""entities"",coagulations of ""entities"" and the almost endless variety in groupings and sub-groupings/groups/troops/tribes of ""entities""."
"Ως πότε παλικάρια να ζούμε στα στενά….
Καλύτερα μίας ώρας ελεύθερη ζωή
παρά σαράντα χρόνια σκλαβιά και φυλακή
- Rigas Feraios
Thing is, if the economic reality is that Europe lives beyond its means and we must all be much poorer and work longer and so on, then I would rather do that in a communitarian Europe where everybody makes a contribution and everybody takes a share, than in some dog eats dog Europe, where poverty feeds the pack of feral dogs with the most powerful jaws and the fewest scruples.
I expect Greek readers will know why I quoted Rigas Feraios at the beginning of this post, but I'll add this, as Aristophanes said, 2500 years ago -
""And if things don't go well, if these good men
All fail, and Athens comes to grief, why then
Discerning folk will murmur (let us hope):
She's hanged herself - but what a splendid rope."""
"Response to Bochi, 07 May 2012 4:06am
That is all Greek to me,and I think many would agree that communitarianism cannot work without a broad consensus and the ability to economically carry the burden of doing without the enterprise,vigour and savings of the many who will not have a bar of communitarianism Greek style,or Italian style,or communist style,or Spanish,or Somalian.There is something communards on the Left will never understand,apparently.In the Northern countries such as the Germanic nation-states,communitarian Europe works very well.If there is a sudden influx of Somali people there is some strain,because,as example,the Somali people have a different brand of communalism.If the incumbents,say,the Dutch,can see their communal efforts going the way of Somalia,or whatever country,they may decide they like the idea of a Somalia on the North Sea(West Sea for the Norwegians).On the other hand,the Dutch(German,French,British,etc.) may decide they do not like the idea of Foreign(to them) communitarianism.They,like every nation which has a state to call their own,have an approximation of the kind of communitarian community that they wish to have and no other.That's why they have it so and not otherwise.The Greeks obviously like it the way it was,while it lasted.The Greeks as a nation have not made successful efforts to keep the state of communitarian affairs they had become accustomed to and now wish to continue indefinitely.What is abundantly clear to many is,strangely,not at all clear to others.It depends a lot on the position you're in,and not least,the position your mind is in versus the real world,from which the Greeks,approximately,have been divorced from for some two thousand years or more.Greece is not the country it was at the time of Alexander the Great.But then,some would argue he was no Greek,but a Macedonian.I think,it is absolutely none of my business as long as you don't expect me to pay any longer for it,that the austerity forced upon Greece due to what is called the Euro crisis,is not the worst of your worries for the near future(if you have one as a sovereign country).It seems to me,with my limited knowledge of that corner of Europa(A Greek Goddess,I believe),that you people have not been in charge of your own affairs for a long time.Correct me if I'm wrong,please."
"Response to JacobJonker, 07 May 2012 9:38am
Hi Jacob -
In the first place, I'm not Greek. I can't speak for what Greek people want, although I used to live there many years ago, just after the Junta was toppled. I learned most of my politics from people who lived through that, so I retain an interest in and love for Greece and Greek people.

There is some truth in this, in that people from different backgrounds may have different ideas about the customs and ethics of their ideal community. But when you look at the elites you see they have no problem at all mixing with each other, marrying each other, hanging out on each other's yachts and so on.
You mentioned in an earlier post that the elite is pushing the rest of us back into a kind of feudalism. I agree. That is why I'm saying that if I have to be a peasant, I'd rather be a communard than somebody's serf. Rajas?"
"If a leaser is elected who fails to acknowledge massive failure to connect with the electorate then years in the wilderness will follow.
Snowballs chance for Abbot."
LEADER
Balls, Burnham, all these zealous little Enoch Powells what are coming into the leadership race, where are they all flocking from?
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"It's a backward looking debate, no? Britain had a chance introduce ""transitional"" moves to stop open borders in the EU when the new countries joined in May 2004. Debating this now is agonising over the past, it's not going to determine that much in time for an election. Especially since the candidates didn't speak out.
Still, you get the sense that all the Labour leaders are the sort of metro folk who loved immigrant Polish builders because they could get new kitchens and flashy bathrooms installed for less. They don't represent the sort of people who saw their wages held down for years because of the sudden increase in labour competition.

Poor David Miliband."
Or is he just trying to make the right noises to get elected leader of the labour party.
And yet still claim the full price on expenses.
"Koolio
14 Jun 2010, 1:11PM
Labour leaders are the sort of metro folk who loved immigrant Polish builders because they could get new kitchens and flashy bathrooms installed for less.
miliband bros are actually polish immigrants themselves (loud & proud) so.."
"Interesting that you see a forcefull defence, whilst I just see a lazy, tired slur from a lazy tired Politician.
What McShame actually said was,"
I'd like to see a statue of Gillian Duffy erected as a tribute to the OAP who helped finally bring an end to Labour's disasterous reign of terror.
Do they do kitchens ?
"""define Labour's leadership contest""
What definite it, is the complete inability to stop the systematic push towards ""new"" careers as being more relevant than introspection about the own failure.
ALL this lobby apparatchiks are addicted to careless elbow kicking party games and not worth any citizen votes anymore in the future."
"Interesting the virtues that McShame listed

I have a vision of McShame the plutocrat, being chauffeured down the highways of life in his freshly and cheaply cleaned car, chomping his subsidised strawberries and swigging down the Omnipresent Grande Latte.
He's got the ordinary touch all right."
"Pairubu
14 Jun 2010, 1:21PM
they had better: they will not survive in this business for long."
"Mrs Duffy inarcitculated the concerns of many, many people. Gordon Brown's risible response was, possibly, the last nail in nu-labour's coffin.
They have a choice now, and it's not an easy one. With the way Balls talks there's every chance that it is the Labour party that will end up as the ""nasty"" party.
The Conservatives must be loving all this."
"It could be entitlted ""The bigot it's not politically correct to call a bigot""
I say fuck the populists, get a joint milliband (D) and abbott ticket. M|illiband is clever, Abbott has the right values and they could unite the party.
Immigration was not a huge issue in the election, it is fading in importance now as anti-over immigration measures have come into play."
"Indeed, a real man of the people with his finger on the pulse of what matters.
What is a ""Cafe Nero"" ? Don't seem to have such a thing round my way."
"I don't really think there'll be any attempt to tackle immigration properly - the attitude of every Labour commenter I've seen isn't :
""Maybe we should consider whether people are right to be concerned about immigration""
it's :
""How can we make these people see the truth about how immigration benefits them""
There is no acceptance among anyone on the Left except the dinosaurs* that the problem may lie with immigration, rather than with the perception of it.
*As in, those who still view left wing politics as being about a fair deal for the working class, rather than race, gender, sexual preference, gender identity and the plight of one legged HIV infected basket weavers in Timbuktu."
"Rupert Murdock will ultimately endorse only one candidate in this leadership election, and that will be Ed Balls. Think of the headlines.
""ANOTHER BALLS UP,"" (every mistake ever,)
""BALLS BOUNCES BACK,"" whenever he has had a good day following the last headline.)
""LABOUR'S SWEATY BALLS."" (the next hot day.)
""ITS ALL BALLS,"" (when they reveal the genius behind the Labour party's latest policy announcement.)
""BALLS TO THE WALL,"" (whenever he is under any pressure.)
and eventually of course,
""BALLS OUT""
Followed by
""NEW BALLS PLEASE."""
Is this the latest wheeze in British politics? If there is an eminently sensible policy, like implementation of the agency worker directive, you only support it when you have no power to get it through?
"Hopefully someone can get him to talk about the treatment of minority groups in Burma.
BALLS ON CHIN"
Whilst we cannot stop people from within the EU coming here it doesn't mean we have to build houses at the taxpayers expense for them, just as I wouldn't expect their country to build a house for me at their taxpayers expense.
"Matilda99

Really? I thought they were English?"
From my reading of Balls' article he came across as one of those 'I'm pro-European, I just want to ban all the foreigners' types who are really (in my opinion) the worst kind of racists.
Innit? Where do you live then, sunshine? Cos there are Caffe Nero's from Hull to Bradford, from Pinner to Watford, from Aberdeen to Glasgow, From Northampton to Leicester, all over the country in fact.
"Shameful to see the Labour candidates jumping on the immigration bandwagon in order to deflect attention from real criticisms of Labour in power for the last 13 years. Nothing like a little immigrant bashing to avoid critical reflection.
When in doubt, always blame Johnny Foreigner...."
"GenHernandez
14 Jun 2010, 1:38PM
Wikipedia:
Born in London, Miliband is the son of Jewish immigrants Marion Kozak, from Poland, and the Belgian-born Marxist Ralph Miliband.[2][3][4] He has said ""I am the child of Jewish immigrants and that is a very important part of my identity.""[3] Both his Polish Jewish paternal grandparents lived in the Jewish quarter of Warsaw."
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"Pairubu

I completely agree, but I think that Labour will end up as the other nasty party rather than taking over from the Tories completely.
Just because a lot of people are racists, doesn't mean that our politicians have to be as well.
Of course the Agency Workers Directive should have been adopted. It's right that the candidates admit that. But they have to work out why it wasn't brought in, which is that they were in cahoots with big business and wanted to punish the poor as usual.
If they can change that and become a party of social justice and one that looks after the poor (rather than bombiing them), they will beat the Tories next time - David Cameron's public spending cuts will make sure of that."
Hilarious how immigration has a say in the Labour leadership contest and yet according to Labour's Hugh Henry, Labour MSP's don't....
"Not candidates plural, candidate singular.
Unless, of course, you think that the agency worker directive is racist."
"_AT_tofu
Rupert Murdock will ultimately endorse only one candidate in this leadership election, and that will be Ed Balls. Think of the headlines.
""ANOTHER BALLS UP,"" (every mistake ever,)
""BALLS BOUNCES BACK,"" whenever he has had a good day following the last headline.)
""LABOUR'S SWEATY BALLS."" (the next hot day.)
""ITS ALL BALLS,"" (when they reveal the genius behind the Labour party's latest policy announcement.)
""BALLS TO THE WALL,"" (whenever he is under any pressure.)
and eventually of course,
""BALLS OUT""
Followed by
""NEW BALLS PLEASE.""
If I may add:
I think also: ""Labour has the BALLS to win the next election!"""
Leadership candidates should stand up for what they believe is right, not for what they think will get them the votes of the anti-immigrant lobby. If everybody with an immigrant ancestor in the last 100 years disappeared, we would be a virtually uninhabited country.
"The difference was that Foot's manifesto was far too left wing. I am suggesting a David Milliband leadership, with moderate economic policies and with Diane Abbot as deputy leader for the left wing conscience, nothing like the Foot campaign. The difference here is that people saw Labour govern successfully for 10 years before the recession and voted them in 3 times in a row, the recession was handled in a way to minimise misery and job cuts, even in the private sector. We are not in the same territory whatsoever.
Immigration turned out not to be the big decider, or there would have been far more right wing votes. As the new policies begin to take fruit and numbers reduce, as they were already doing, it will become less of an issue, except for racists."
"mugged-
my! are you seriously suggesting that the labour party should actually represent the pale, sweaty, uncouth working class here in the uk rather than those colourful working classes who live in warm, exotic countries and whose cultures, skin tone, music and food are far more palatable than that of the oiks living here?
good grief! how out of touch can you be?! next you'll be suggesting that the labour party should actually have representatives of the working class in positions of power, rather than poshos like harman, the millipedes, ballsup etc...
also, if balls is beaten in the contest there would always be 'balls thoroughly licked'. (thank you matt groening)
i really can't get with this 'fuck the populists' thing...that's how labour stayed in the wilderness for 18 years...of course, now i no longer go into bat for them, that does not matter to me one iota.
labour is going to have to have a moment of mea culpa wrt immigration policy over the last 13 years and is going to acutally have the (ahem) balls to apologise for ignoring the electorate's views on this for so long.
but then, they achieved what they wanted and it will be impossible for any party to undo the damage already done....so i'm sure they'll be their usual smug selves."
Oh now you are just being silly.
"And when this directive does come in (next winter I think it is), is there still that option for employers to offer less favourable conditions for the first 12 weeks of employment?
If there is, the directive will be of little use. The agencies will just keep switching the workers from one factory to another every three months."
"Here's a thought. If the coalition manages not just to survive but be reasonably successful, might we see a split within the Labour party over this issue?
Most of the so-called ""far right"" parties which have become increasingly successful in the rest of Europe aren't actually particularly right of centre at all. Their views on the economy, the role/size of the government, the welfare state, etc. are traditionally left-wing. As is their distaste for the ""metropolitan elites"". The ""only"" thing ""right-wing"" about them is their anti-immigrant, anti-EU, anti-""identity politics"" rhetoric. And in many countries they have captured huge chunks, or even the majority of the white working class vote, leaving only the ethnic minorities, ""champagne socialists"" and the most die-hard trade unionists to vote for the left-of-centre ""dinosaurs"".
I'm not saying it's likely, but given how things play out in the coming years, it seems possible that we might see the emergence not just of two blocks, but of two different Labour parties: an intellectual/identity politics one made up of the likes of Abbott and D. Miliband, and a populist one for the likes of Ms. Duffy."
I have located a hat specifically so that I could put it on and then, in tribute, take it off to that comment.
"Until Labour recognises what democracy is again then they are welcome to stay in opposition.
It took them 18 years to ditch the left wing madness that made them unelectable, lets see how long the mass immigration is a good thing lie keeps them out."
As for any article invoking anything Dennis Macshane has to say has already lost the argument.
I hope this contest is not defined by the immigration issue. What I am looking for is somebody with a long term vision of how we would like this country to look in 10 or 20 years' time - less dependent on oil, full employment, lower crime rates, parliamentary reform including proportional representation and a Parliament more representative of the people, decent housing for all, decent pensions and most important, greater equality of income distribution.
MacShame wrong on both points then. That's quite good for him. In a sentence that contains two statistics, MacShame usually manages to be wrong three times.
"M E L

The three parties that increased their vote the most was The Conservatives (+4.57%), the BNP (+1.8%) and the Lib Dems (+0.98%). Sort of tells it's own story don't you think.
FYI just because people worry about overpopulation it doesn't make them racists just realists, the old ""your racist"" slur simply emphasises the paucity of your argument."
"toom- i think you could further extrapolate that a lot of people just won't vote for the bnp, period...this does not mean that, even though they chose ukip, the tories or libs that they did not have issues with labour's immigration policy...
melefty- your conclusion could be reversed to sugget that no one wants any kind of socialistic enterprise because they didn't vote in the swp or labour...and i'm sure you wouldn't agree with that."
"Hmm!
Surely that's up to the French though? If they were to decide that it ought not to happen then they would be their right, their decision and absolutely none of our business. McShane's argument is, as usuall, utterly bogus. Retire at 60? Why not, in France they do just that. Have sex with fifteen year olds? Why not, in Denmark they do just that. Stone homosexuals? Why not, in Saudi Arabia they do just that.
if you're going to frame this argument in terms if 'what they do on other countries' you're going to get nowhere very quickly."
"I'm suggesting that immigration was not the defining issue of the election as many claimed it would be, that whilst there are some concerns about immigration these will reduce as immigration reduces, which it has started to do.
Basically before the election, those on CIF for whom immigration is THE burning issue were claiming that Labour would be annihilated by a tide of anti-immigration votes, they weren't. They were claiming there would be a huge increase in support for the BNP, there wasn't. So whilst immigration was an issue it was not the defining issue. Concern about immigration is not racism, some of the comments about immigration posted on CIF are racist."
"How about Ed Balls wins, goes to visit Australia and loese a friendly game of tennis to Kevin Rudd......headline:
Balls Licked Down Under!"
"_AT_ eatyourgreens

Most people aren't racists. They are , however, concerned about immigration. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
_AT_MEL
I'm not telling you where I live, you'll put me on some ""up against the wall come the revolution"" list.
Suffice to say coffee has only just made into these here parts, fancy coffee shops are as alien as foccacia bakeries . Not everywhere is like London you know."
"Prime minister visits site of Berlin Wall.
""Balls to the wall""."
"Dammit ! Balls to wall already taken.
Nuts."
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if he does something courageous 'balls shows spunk'...
"_AT_ Bromleyboy - I really feel thats a huge exaggeration.
If such people disappeared the population would be smaller - but virtually uninhabited - come off it."
Freshly shaved Balls applauded at conference.
"""Not everywhere is like London you know""
Perhaps the wisest comment ever made on CiF and should be a mantra for those on the ""London Left"" who seek to impose their ""solutions"" upon the rest of the country.
I've long since viewed London as being a separate country within the UK, and whilst it is a wonderful city in many ways it does tend to suck the life from the rest of the country."
and of course, when ousted form the job....'balls given the sac'...
"The party leader debates should be fun
""Balls cut off by host as Labour leader overruns"""
Richard Darlington surprises me. Sure immigration - or rather, Labour's disconnect from it during the election - was important in election terms. The Leadership Contest, though, is not a post-mortem on the election. Most Labour activists know there are much bigger fish to fry and see the leadership election as a chance to redefine the party, revisit and review itself. Immigration and the Duffy affair will beimportant as symptoms of labour's dis-connect and Brown's personal unpopularity. Nothing more.
Except Lewisham, so far as I am aware.
"Virtually all of them are financially independent, and claim no benefits.
Yes, I agree, it's a pity they make no attempt to speak Spanish. I believe in integration rather than ""multiculturalism"".
As for the ""Gillian Duffy"" question, well, it is a question that will keep cropping up. Those Middle and Upper Class folk living well away from any influxes of immigrants will continue to benefit from cheaper labour, while working class people like Gillian Duffy will have to compete for jobs and services with them."
"What would the election result have looked like without the votes of the millions of immigrants that New Labour let in?
What would it have looked like without the massive electoral fraud that goes on in areas of high immigration?
What would it have looked like without the millions of suspect postal votes that are bought and sold on the streets of Lahore?
What would it have looked like without the absurd clause that allows any Commonwealth individual resident in the UK (including all those ""students"") to vote in UK general elections?
What would it have looked like with those that have fled Britain since New Labour came into power?
New Labour's electoral engineering, cultural vandalism and egregious gerrymandering, I suspect, although not enough to prevent them losing the election, was probably just enough to prevent an outright Tory win."
"""Pairubu
miliband bros are actually polish immigrants themselves (loud & proud) so
Do they do kitchens ?""
They have a habit of making horrid cabinets, that lean both left and right, which are generally full of crap."
This is seem old Labour,as an immigrant i hope they will never come back to power as they were disaster,that my opinion,you have yours
"Yeah, it's best to look on the bright side, it could be worse.
Ed Balls could suddenly rise in popularity as this leadership election progresses.
What a Balls up that would be for party, country, continent, world, solar system, galaxy, universe, etc.
As you see, I like to retain a measured perspective on things and not go too much ott. :)
Actually, On this matter I don't particularly disagree with Balls that much about Brown and Labour being so out of touch with much of ordinary, warts and all ( no matter), British people re immigration. Just that I question his sincerity and generally can't stand the guy anyway. :)
.......
More seriously, I think the electorate and political opponents would only sit up and pay attention if Ed Miliband wins the contest wih dull, boring Burnham coming a distant second in that regard. Not that I'm a particular fan of any of the runners, Ed Miliband included, mind you.
However, do I think a winning majority of the elctorate would be persuaded by Dianne Abbot? Nope. In your dreams Dianne. Political opponents would be satisfied and confident if she came out on top. It'd make for interesting times but, nope, I don't think she'd be able lead the party to an election win.
David Miliband? Cringe,cringe...Mr Banana man, Hilary Clinton's toyboy ...and about twice as smiley and insincere as Blair. Anything he says makes "" This is no time for soundbites ...but I feel the hand of history on our shoulders"" sound positively spontaneous and non-soundbite-ish.
Balls? Not a chance with the electorate and the oppo's would be well happy.
Burnham? Enough to send the electorate to sleep unfortunately for him.
If Labour is serious about regaining power then Ed Miliband is its only option as far as I can see. Articulate and serious enough and also capable of putting up a fight without being too abusive about it all in the process.
Still, it's not a given that Labour actually does want to regain power. No doubt most in the party will say so but, in reality, its members are possibly more interested in some long drawn out introverted navel gazing followed by some vague awareness that there's a people and a country out there beyond Labourworld. Then there'd eventually be a "" hey, it's time for yet another reinvention of who we are and what we stand for "" blah, blah, blah.
Ed Miliband, though, even allowing for the above, is probably the quickest route back to power and could well wake up the party a lot sooner than it'd normally prefer while also avoiding the big divisions and schism's his brother's leadership, for example, would ensure.
For better or for worse there's, arguably, a lot more of a focus on the personailty ( and more importantly the character when it can be "" divined"") of a Party Leader these days, but that's life. It's a poltical reality.
Personally, though, I don't think Labour deserves to be anywhere near the reins of power for at least a decade. It's trashed this nation in every respect. Little sweeteners here and there just being fobs to "" progressivism"" from a fundamentally authoritarian mindset. Fobs that can be rattled off by the likes of Polly Toynbee etc when castigating Tories but, in reality, having no real substance, worth....even if they pass ---just about ....in the "" merit"" stakes.
Along with the fobs, though, was the authoritarianism ( nannyism at its best but even that's repugnant in its infantilism), the spin & the cruel vindictiveness re opponents, the trashing and humiliating of the military, the fundamental assault on basic freedoms, the THOUSANDS of new "" crimes"" put on the statute books, in knee jerk fashion, yet meaning and producing absolutely nothing and, last but not least, the perverse financial/economic madness, leaving the country up the proverbial creek for decades to come.
Arguments re a causal global problem rather than one of its own making only being credible in the slightest respect. In truth, Labour's profligate incompetence was always the big factor at play. In so many national arenas it basically comes down to : It's Labour's fault. So thanks for that Labour Party. And bigs hugs and kisses from the very young and future generations to come too. Amazing what can be achieved in the relatively short span of 13 years. NOT!
So, yeah, the scumbag Labour Party doesn't deserve a thing from this country. Let's see what its come up with in a decade or so if, that is, it shows genuine political insight , wisdom but , above all, serious and credible contrition.."
"tofu
You missed some potential headlines;
Wins the leadership- Balls in!
Gets 327 seats in parliament- Balls over the top!
PM meets actor- Head to Balls: ""Ouch!""
Cabinet minister in sleaze story- Balls deep in prostitute scandal!"
"adastram. You are talking about electoral issues and fraud, not immigration.
As an EU citizen you can register to vote in the EU elections and vote for a party in the country of your nationality. You can't vote in the UK elections. Commonwealth citizens can register here for UK voting rights when they are resident here. It is a reciprocal arrangement with other governments, true.
I suggest your post was completely motivated by malevolence and suggest you refrain from such behaviors until you google conservative voting fraud and address the real issue."
how about if he were to be found out in an expenses scandal?.....'balls exposed!'
I'm talking about both. Regarding malevolent motives - that is pretty much the way I see everything that motivated New Labour.
Or if Ed Balls were to lose it one day and take the cabinet hostage: "Ministers Held by Balls"
"http://www.caffenero.com/StoreLocator.asp
It's never been easier to see who is correct - MEL or Pairubu..."
Actually that is something that pisses me off quite a bit. In the constituency where I used to live, South West Norfolk, there are thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of eastern European and Portuguese labourers working in the factories and farms. A new working class has been imported, and not only do they have fewer rights than British workers in terms of employment because they are mostly employed by agencies, they are politically disenfranchised.
I presume they can vote in their own countries.
"The ""Gillian Duffy question"" has dominated the early skirmishes among the contenders because it symbolises ordinary voters' experience of globalisation.
Symbolises what ? ?
The Banking debacle symbolised globalisation.
Heaps of Eastern Bloc economic migrants symbolised a piss-weal NL government.
but Balls has become a lone voice among the candidates in arguing for restrictions in free movement of labour. Not only does he want restrictions on eastern Europeans but he wants movement restrictions on unskilled Turkish workers to be a condition of Turkey's EU membership.
Is Balls being Eurosceptic?
Depends what you mean by Eurosceptic. Most of the other ""big"" EU nations put a very very severe cap on Eastern Bloc migrants - as they will do with Turkey and all other newbies.
The UK threw the doors open to EBloc workers ... so on that occassion they went against the club.
Abbott urges Labour activists to ""hold the line"" against voter disquiet on immigration
Street Blockades; man the Bastille; whip the proletariat into line - what kind of fucking tosh is that ? ""Hold the line"" ? What patronising fucking tosh
Diane and David may keep on passionately disagreeing about Iraq and Trident, but their body language and barbed comments towards Balls and Burnham put the left and right wingers on the same liberal side of this immigration argument.
Diane fancies nice comfy Shadow Cabinet Job.
She's this years Presott award candidate.
What a shower"
"i I presume they can vote in their own countries.
Possibly, but different countries have different rules for allowing their citizens abroad to vote.
Nevertheless, imagine a situation where you have a Portuguese labourer and his Portuguese wife living and working in Swaffham. Their children go to school in England, they pay taxes in England, they utilise health and other services in England. They might be able to vote for a candidate in Lisbon, but they have no means of exerting political influence on British laws relating to employment, education, health or other services. Of course, they could pay out an absolute fortune and take British citizenship, but they won't. Labour has delivered the dream package to the Tories and employers - workers who they can pay less than the locals, and workers who can't vote.
There may be a case for allowing EU citizens to decide whether they vote in parliamentary elections in their country of citizenship or country of residence."
Who cares about the native UK population who could and used to do those jobs who are now stuck on the dole, if they qualify. The most important thing is that the imported cheap labour get a vote.
I think you're missing the point. If migrant workers had the same rights and protections as British workers, and if we had a decent minimum wage, we wouldn't have ended up with so many of them in Britain.
The rich get all the benefits of immigration and none of the costs; the poor get all the costs and none of the benefits. Thats why its a class issue. All the liberal bien-pensant commenters on here are too self-interested to admit it. Best to keep attacking the poor
"How about if Ed Balls is the victim of a scam:
BALLS RIPPED OFF!"
They've always been there. They are attempting to attract the sewage end of their vote. When I was on a No2ID stall once, one self-confessed Labourite expressed his support for ID Cards in this charming way, as something that would sort out the 'n*ggers and the p*kis'. That's the sort of specimen they are attemping to woo. Chalk another one up for the 'only progressive party in Britain'.
Not so long ago the left opposed 'globalisation' knowing full well that it brings down the living standards of those already struggling to survive. Nowadays the 'left' represented by Labour and the Guardian fully supports it, hence the pro-immigration stance that both have.
"LordSummerisle

It is not a bogus argument - you have simply misunderstood it. You may not treat EU citizens of another state less favourably than UK citizens. France must give certain benefits to Britons in France because they are EU citizens and so may not be treated less favourably. By the same token, EU citizens in Britain may not be denied benefits that are available to Britons, provided that they meet the criteria. It's a simple enough principle and one of the cornerstones of the single European market. I thought everyone understood it."
Scorf - Perhaps "virtually uninhabited" was a slight exaggeration, but when I think of it, I'm as English as they come, but 2 of my grandparents were immigrants, as is my wife, and this doesn't seem unusual. How many people out there can honestly say that all 8 of their great-grandparents were born in Britain? I would suggest, not too many.
"Blue Balls.
(Genealogist discovers Ed Balls to have noble ancestry)
And, he is a right pain..."
"I hope this contest is not defined by the immigration issue. What I am looking for is somebody with a long term vision of how we would like this country to look in 10 or 20 years' time - less dependent on oil, full employment, lower crime rates, parliamentary reform including proportional representation and a Parliament more representative of the people, decent housing for all, decent pensions and most important, greater equality of income distribution.
----
Sounds like Gillian Duffy should be running the country. But what does she know, eh? She's just a stupid bigoted woman from Rochdale.
Sounds like a song from The Kinks:
She's a stupid bigotted woman from Rochdale,
Oh yes she is!
Oh yes she is!
And when they asked her about immigration,
She said stick it up yer arse,
Gillian Duffy is the inconvenient truth from Rochdale.
Oh yes she is!
Oh yes she is!"
I would suggest the majority of the population. Why is it the "left" (lol) seem to fall over themselves to prove that we are a "nation of immigrants" when the truth is that the vast majority of people have no non-British heritage that they know of.
"Scorf:
'_AT_Bromleyboy - I really feel thats a huge exaggeration.
If such people disappeared the population would be smaller - but virtually uninhabited - come off it.'
I agree. A friend of mine is descended from the Huguenots on her father's side, but that's 13 generations back: much longer than a hundred years ago. My own father was born in 1913. All my great-grandparents were born in Britain."
Nulabour,nextlabour who cares -they are all in the same can dispensing mediocrity,incompetence and most carry the sweaty smell of 13 years of failed policies and bankruptcy for Britain. More to the point where has the elusive oily one gone ,surely the clunking fist must have been seen in the Scottish wasteland-when will he come out to answer questions on his obvious desire to hobble this country for generations-the man had lost the plot and he needs to talk to the national therapist so we can all understand what makes him tick.Balls and the brothers are soulless operators -they need to go away for 10 years and learn about the real world and then see if they are still interested to come back into the Nuwest labour party which by then will be an irrelevance as the majority will still remember the Brown years and say never again-we just cannot afford the risk.
BTW, who's the fat bloke with Mrs Duffy ?
"Me, my wife, my best mate...most of the people I know, actually. Britain, pre 1960 was , cotrary to leftish beleif, inhabited mainly by British people.
You can test it here.
Tap your surname in on the 1881 map and you can see how many instances were recorded in the census and where the concentrations are. It's quite a good indicator."
"Pairbu-i think that should read ,not everywhere is like north london,the new home of the guardian & nu lab.None of that nasty northern blue collar stuff,lattes,yoga & cheap (foriegn) cleaners for the media types & baroness scotland..
P.S have youheard those wankers at the beeb moaning about moving north,bless."
"It's strange really. You've got this peculiar alliance of Labour, Tories, the BBC and employers jumping up and down squealing, ""You're a racist if you oppose EU migration!""
Then you say, ""I don't oppose it. I just want agency workers, most of who are foreign, to have exactly the same pay, conditions and rights as all other workers"".
The peculiar alliance stops jumping up and down for a while to think of a response, and then they all squeal together, ""That's constructive racism, because systematic discrimination against foreign workers is what makes them so attractive to British employers, and if you stop that discrimination, you'll do them out of a job. Racist!"""
"It's strange really. You've got this peculiar alliance of Labour, Tories, the BBC and employers jumping up and down squealing, ""You're a racist if you oppose EU migration!""
Then you say, ""I don't oppose it. I just want agency workers, most of who are foreign, to have exactly the same pay, conditions and rights as all other workers"".
The peculiar alliance stops jumping up and down for a while to think of a response, and then they all squeal together, ""That's constructive racism, because systematic discrimination against foreign workers is what makes them so attractive to British employers, and if you stop that discrimination, you'll do them out of a job. Racist!"""
"Pairubu - ""Britain, pre 1960 was , cotrary to leftish beleif, inhabited mainly by British people.""
If by ""British people"" you mean ""people born in Britain"", of course that was true, and overwhelmingly still is. But once you go back a very few generations, and allow for the waves of immigrants persecuted in their own countries (Jews around 1900 and the 1930s for example) you soon learn there is no such thing as ""pure British"". How many members of the Royal Family, for example, have all 4 grandparents born here? Certainly not Charles, William, and Harry. And you'd be surprised at the number of prominent people, apparently British, who are immigrants or have immigrant parents. 3 of the 5 Labour leadership candidates have BOTH parents who are immigrants, and I doubt if Andy Burnham can go very far back without encountering Irish ancestors. Prominent right-wingers like Daniel Hannan and Peter Hitchens, hardly enthusiasts for immigration, are both immigrants themselves! (born in Peru and Malta respectively). Nick Clegg had an immigrant mother, and a previous LIBDem leader, Paddy Ashdown, is an immigrant (Hong Kong I believe).
My view is that, unless there are serious reasons against, people should be allowed to live where they wish. I wouldn't be happy if the millions of British people who now choose to live in countries like France, Spain, and Australia had been prevented from doing so."
Oh, I forgot; Winston Churchill's mother was an immigrant.
Her comments were rather mild compared to the extremist, immigration hating rhetoric that passes for normality on immigration 'debates' on CIF.
bromleyboy,the serious reasons against unrestricted immigration is that we cannot afford it any longer. The last Labour government damn near bankrupted us. Don't you read the newspapers?
"Between Diana Abbott, Ed Balls and David Miliband, immigration into the UK is sought to kept open, without conceding any real change.
The right approach on immigration will not help Ed Balls win. Immigration is a non issue, in the real fight.
It follows then that he is being set up as the regressive conspiracy's Fall Guy. Much like John McKain.
Does David Miliband want to be Obama by defeating Abbott?
Does the fact that another developed country is being presented with the same choice not make it clear that the choice made the last time was a wrong one?
Obama has not fooled anyone. With Obama though, the American public was fooled comprehensively. They will, at the end of these 8 years, not have progressed.
A massive disinformation ploy is being fought in not one but two developed, English speaking democracies.
Why is no red flag waving, anywhere?
We are led by a team of Captain Ahebs, who are so obsessed with holding the world back, that they do not appreciate that they are being actively set up to stay back.
I hope the Labour party chooses right and elects Diana Abbott."
"No I wouldn't.

Ireland, prior to the 1920s, was part of the United Kingdom

I'd like to live in Hawaii but I can't. They wouldn't want me. It's, really, up to the locals. Call it ""Self determination"" if you like.
Any other ""interesting"" points to make ?
You could add to your list Joanna Lumley, Stephen Fry, Cliff Richard and Spike Milligan all ""immigrants"" or descendants of."
"Oh, I forgot.

Yes, there is. Millions of them. Until fairly recently marriage to foreigners or immigrants was very unsual. People, simply, didn't have the opportunity even if they had the will.
It even took the current royal family a few generations to gain acceptance."
Strawmen and paranoia. I've yet to see any employer's organisation making such a claim. Their claims are economic claims. On the other hand, Migration Watch were strong supporters of Labour's racist ID Card, scheme.
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The survival of the English people isn't under threat.
"There's no wonder that the ""white"" (non) working class are the group that are most disturbed by the overwhelming economic migration into the UK, not only from Eastern Europe, but also from the Indian subcontinent and colonial Africa.
It's their jobs that the immigrants take, It's their housing, their GP appointments and their school places.
If the Islington intelligentsia, bit of an oxymoron I know, lived where housing was cheap they would understand."
No, you Nazi moron, I am White indigenous, my wife is white indigenous, the white English are not minoritised or widely despised, people do despise Nazi flith like you, except on Stormfront where you belong.
Do you swallow? Get your diseased shit off this site
"Don't be silly Pairubu, you wouldnt't be on that list, 6 months bread and water in the political re-education gulag, yes, up against the wall no.
But bloody hell, it must be some backwater, that Caffe Nero list had locations in HULL, HULL!!!!!"
"Well if we accept that the UK has exceeded it's sustainable population by a factor of 2 by some calculations, it really doesn't make sense to encourage more people to come here by building housing for them, does it.
So limit existing Social housing stock to people who have been born here and let the rest find (and pay for) private accommodation."
"_AT_ eatyourgreens
Just because a lot of people are racists, doesn't mean that our politicians have to be as well.
mr eaty, for you own info i have come from abroad marrying a British man. but now the truth is britain can not afford to take anymore with the increasing unemployment and benefit system it runs. you cant have both together and mr eaty, dont you think its unfair to work and pay for someone who freshly arrived in to the country who has not work and not paid anything who gets every thing free while you work but struggle to feed your own family and look after other.
in east london 3 bedroom house contains 20 immigrants and because of having only bathroom there are reports of immigrants excrete and dump the feces in the plastic bags and bin it. do you think with thise situation its wise for this country to allow immigration. dont you think Britain is in the mess already. if migration help than it would be probably already rich. why dont we learn from the example of Japan and korea,"
"Why not just limit all housing to people whose grandparents were all born here, and build some nice camps for the rest. Only a matter of degree, duck.
Whatever immigration policy Britain might adopt in the future... anyone legally here is legally here. You have to be a complete tosser to be able to extract any satisfaction from the fact that some of them have fewer housing rights, or have to wear little badges sewn on their clothes...

You really might want to get out and see a bit more of the world. Nothing like it for broadening the mind."
"iruka
Standby for a revelation, are you sitting down because this may well cause you a fit of the vapours.
The people who actually paid into the system should be afforded the benefits of the system into which they paid before those newly arrived who haven't.
The old maxim applies, ""what you put in you get out, nothing in-nothing out.
Social (note the word social) housing should be for those who paid to have it built in the first place and they shouldn't have to compete with people who choose to come here.
UK citizens in Spain, Australia, New Zealand etc.etc. generally don't gravitate towards Social Housing but tend to pay their own way and don't rely on the State to feed house and clothe them."
"I'm telling you, give me the guardians ear for 1 year and things will change a lot in Britain.
I am talking with 3 governments about providing them all with green tech energy, with a grand total cost to thier population on energy bills of $0
I can not start this in the UK, as government and oil companies would stop me, but with a news paper aboard, this would be very possible.
Ryan
http://whiteorchid.wordpress.com/about/
The GEB project."
Is this a joke Will? Britain will have trouble finding migrants? Throw a rock anywhere outside Europe and you'll hit someone who wants to move here. And didn't you know that planning which migrants you'll take is apparently racist? Don't you listen to your colleagues?
Nice one Ryan, keep taking the tablets.
"I hear a great wailing and a gnashing of teeth as the farmers of our green and pleasant land bemoan the lack of cheat imported labour to exploit.
For years the farmers, in cahoots with the gang-masters, have exploited this pool of labour but now it is drying up. So what do I hear from the countryside? Claims that fruit and vegetables will be scarce as it is left to rot in the fie4lds because there is no cheap labour to harvest it. Threats that the housewife will have to pay through the nose for winter greens and potatos.
Well good! It is high time that agricultural labour was paid a proper wage and given conditions comparable with with work in town and city."
I don't know when Germany "closed its doors" to East European labour in recent years; but in the 70s, a considerable number of Yugoslavs were "gastarbeiter" there, as well as Greeks and Turks. The Warsaw Pact countries of course wouldn't let their people join these.
If the few million of "economically inactive" were put to work just maybe we wouldn't need any more people here ?
Wage equalisation between Britain and Poland will take decades. As you say, wages in Poland are one fifth of what they are in UK. Let's "do the maths" and assume real wage growth of 2 percent in the UK and 5 percent in Poland and in 25 years time, Polish wages will still be half of British wages. Planning for events this far out is a fraught experience.
"""Where, then, is the next great wave of immigration coming from?""
China? No way. India OK.
BUT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How about Latin America?
Basically a christian-ish culture fairly loose, friendly, hard working, family oriented, from white to very dark brown in colour so as not to upset you too much.
There are already well established beach heads in London for young Latinoamericans.
Food, music, soap operas and beauty competitions would all improve. Young Latina women more often take unwanted pregnancies to birth so all the ageing couples in the UK might have more chance to adopt.
C';mon you know it makes sense.."
Who needs immigrants when local and national government is overstaffed by the best part of a million people, not to mention up to five million economically inactive?
Do you really have to actively strategise about inviting immigrants? Just build it (the economy that is) and they will come. At least, if we have immigration policies that allow for such a thing.
Interesting article and has sense to it's conclusions. There are a huge number of Eastern Europeans now working in our town and the neighbouring agricultural businesses. What is noticeable is that they seem reluctant to become involved in the community and avoid making any kind of friendly spoken or eye contact. On a one to one I think it is better but they seem to be here to get the cash and then head on home, some already have. If we are to continue to grow our economy then immigration will have to continue but I think there is an answer not suggested in the article. Anyone who has been in hospital, or had dealings with a care home, will know the contribution that nurses and carers from the Philippines make. English is spoken widely and well there and is in common use. The Philippines has an almost western culture as the only Christian country in South East Asia. It's people are well educated, kind, caring and used to hard work. Their local economy is very still very poor and so there is a huge pool of people who would rush to come to live and work in the UK, in fact because of the good reports sent back by the nurses and carers or their treatment here, we are often their first choice. Unfortunately they cannot get work permits very easily now, as following the EU expansion we have seen the big inflow from the east of Europe. Now the Filipinos go to work in Hong Kong, many parts of the Middle East and the sweat shops of Taiwan. They, and us, would be so much better off if we invited them here.
"Donge
I have recently been asked onto two energy boards, if I was on tablets as you suggest, why would I be asked onto these boards? Why am I talking with 3 governments currently about supplying them with energy.
I put myself out there, remind me who is donge?
It is very clear who I am and what I am doing on here
http://whiteorchid.wordpress.com/about/
Ryan AKA the man on tablets"
"""if society begins to balkanise into different ethnic groups""
Ah yes - there is always that possibility. It has happened before.
""then the government would be likely to act to disrupt immigration flows""
For that to happen, Victor, there are two necessary conditions
a) the government has the power to disrupt immigration flows. In a balkanised society would that necessarily be the case ?
b) the government is in the hands of an ethnic group or alliance of groups with an interest in disrupting immigration flows. It may be in the interests of a government to increase flows from its constituency group.
Reading your piece and looking at the demographics (1 child in 4 with foreign parent, ethnic minority kids 22% of English primary students, emigration and immigration at record levels) it seems likely that the English will be replaced well before the end of this century."
Unfortunately employers are stuck in a mentality that believes survival in overly competitive markets is dependent upon overly exploiting labour. Ever yman's 'time' is of course of equal value. We all value our lives equally and time is the currency of life.
"Laban Tall: ""it seems likely that the English will be replaced well before the end of this century.""
Bad news. This has already happened. All my grandparents, and my parents, have already been replaced. It's inexorable, I tell you. I put my faith in Dolly The Sheep, and look what happened to her.
I blame the Normans."
I agree with some of the above posters and suggest Latin America/Philipines as countries with a Christian backgound but fairly liberal populations, unlikely to want to intoduce sharia law or cover women in headscarves and make them mere possesions of men. It would be great if we could increase or birthrate still further aswell, to the 2.1 replacement level, I think at the moment it's at around 1.8
"'There are three possible answers, each with very significant foreign policy implications""
You forgot the most obvious option: all of the above!!!
Britain does NOT need to plan where the next wave of immigrants comes from: they will come regardless.
But this doesn't mean that no planning should be done. Will Somerville stumbled across the issue without realising it: ""The concern with Africa's development may also work against aspiring emigrants as we refuse to undermine their economies by taking their skilled workers. (If the past is anything to judge by, however, such high moral standards will collapse at the first sign of real need in the British economy.)""
So what the planning should be about is how to ensure they train enough skilled workers that those who choose to emigrate won't be missed.
(And yes, of course we should be doing more to train our own workers too.)
[Ryanwhiteorchid] Your post was off topic for this thread. You might get taken much more seriously on one with the subject of energy or water. Another problem is you seem to see a conspiracy where none exists (hence donge's comment).
Your plans are reasonable, but whether they are cost competitive is a different matter. There are plenty of competing technologies in the renewable energy and desalination sector, so it is right to treat your cost claims with scepticism until there is more evidence. The government are not doing enough to help development of renewable energy technology, but they don't actually have anything against it. Nor do oil companies - they don't regard it as a threat - merely a business opportunity, but not a very good one. You may yet prove them wrong, but I'm not holding my breath."
"One in four babies born in Britain have at least one foreign parent, one in seven children in primary school don't have English as a first language... And Guardian columnists are anxious about where the next immigrants are coming from.
It is also notable how the fanatical attachment to mass immigration is now clothed in cold economics. The move to economics is rather telling. No thought warning us that we risk a slow down in the increase of diversity and multiculturalism. No celebration about the ""one in four"" baby statistic - no hopes expressed that soon the whole country can be as cosmopolitan as London. Just economics. And really, we ought to work out a way of giving jobs to our own unemployed and under-employed - instead of being proud of a cheaper economy where it is better for London to import labour from China than Rotherham.
There is an admission that government might intervene should their be ethnic Balkanisation. It is fairer to say, that such action will take place long after such Balkanisation, and when the majority cultures drift to minority status begins to hurt the progressive types."
"when the majority cultures drift to minority status begins to hurt the progressive types" ... the progressive types will be on the planes to America !
"I don't agree that the way forward is more immigration from the third world. Skilled labour ok but that would take a badly needed resource from those countries and perpetuate the problem.
If there is a future working population problem would it be fanciful to suggest investing in those countless NEETs we so often hear about and offer more substantial training to youngsters who are not attracted to media studies at University.
The UK should be concerned about the number of skilled British who are choosing to leave, they can't all be going due to the weather, other factors have an influence (house prices, cost of living, bad government)
Filling the gap with North Africans is not the solution and will cause more trouble in the long run.
The government should look closer to home for its solutions."
"Why is it OK for aging british couples who have or are close to retiring to emmigrate to other countries and live off thier welfare, claiming pensions etc, but not OK for young hardworking immigrants to come here and pay our taxes?
Whether the daily mail reading harpies like it or not, the number of pensionable aged british people is at record levels and is only going to get worse. With an aging population who vote, the rules will be massively stacked in thier favour with us and our kids having to work harder,longer and pay more tax for the baby boomers to sit on their arses and get free life extending drugs and NHS treatment.
Whether we like it or not, taxes will need to be paid and it is either higher taxes for the young or more young paying the same rate of tax. If you dont like it, go out and have 10 babies and talk all your friends into it as well.
Farmers and their ilk can go screw themselves for all I care, they have been taking advantage of the disenfranchised for hundreds of years, happy to pay £1/hour and happy to let gangmasters beat and rape thier staff and keep them in appalling conditions, I personaly have sympathy for those farmers whose fields are laying unpicked and somehow think that society owes them a way out of paying legal wages!"
Good idea lets have more immigrants, we still have some green space in the South East that needs concreting over !
"Although I'm more in favour of planning for a managed decline in our population, a few extra Chinese would be a massive asset over the next half century, as China becomes the economic engine of the world. It's a pity we were too cowardly to give the Hongkongers citizenship.
But isn't China heading for a ""demographic crash"" itself, due to the one child policy? Now that's something that could have a significant effect on migrant flows."
Don't know how I'm going to sleep tonight worrying about these poor tax exiles having to slum it in the 'burbs....
"Seriously, was there no proper news today or something?
In 10-15 years time, for a variety of reasons, London should leave the UK. They may as well stop pretending to be anything like the rest of these isles."
Idiots - need to get some perspective on real life and real problems. But I'm sure they will feel right at home - London is definitely the city for postcode snobbery
"Dunno what they're complaining about.
When I was homeless I stayed in a youth hostel in Kensington for, like, £7 a night.
It was alright."
Why would we want to roll out the red carpet for a bunch of people who want to avoid paying taxes anyway? Doesn't really matter how much they've got if they're not actually going to contribute...
Ridiculous comment...the French ex-pats are moving to the UK to avoid the barbaric taxes introduced by Hollande. They are of course tax payers in the UK. Don't you read the bloody Guardian?? Or anything.......
"Response to Aengil, 27 August 2012 1:03am
Ridiculous comment...the French ex-pats are moving to the UK to avoid the barbaric taxes introduced by Hollande. They are of course tax payers in the UK. Don't you read the bloody Guardian?? Or anything......."
"Response to Aengil, 27 August 2012 1:03am
So they'll fit right in to Cameron's Britain...all for the waelthy tax evaders....just cut public spending more and tax things that hurt poor and working class more...and they all lived happily ever after"
"Response to thesweeneytodd, 27 August 2012 1:25am
Non-doms...I accidentally recommended your comment, didn't meant to! Was going for the respond, sorry for any confusion. Like the confusion in your mind that they will contribute to UK taxes"
Poor things.
First world problems!
Anyway...boohoo...OMG, can't afford the poshest parts. Poor rich folkes who can't flaunt it enough...let them eat cake? Scumbags the lot of them.
Most of the expensive houses on the market have been renovated using elaborate off-shore tax avoidance schemes abd creative VAT approaches. Thats the scandal.
Oh no! those poor rich french people. I can so relate. I guess it's Hackney or Brixton for them.
Let them commute
"May be they can start a movement, ""Occupy Golden Square""!
Poor souls. We can set up a tent city for them so they can have a desirable address."
Shame
"FFS, Mr Muir, only a few of these French people are the rich. The majority are youngish people working in middle class jobs. Like for EDF, Veolia and the other French companies who own most of London's utilities. Most of them have been here for some time.
The whole article is just a gobbling up and spitting out of a Kensington Estate Agent's PR handout. Appeals to the dim bulbs above who hate the French, the rich, the reasonably well off, the middle class and anyone not just like them. As a member of a minority yourself, I would have expected you to think that cheap xenophobia is not very attractive."
"Response to Shebizzle, 27 August 2012 1:46am
Be careful what you wish for, they will price us plebs out of the last few places we can afford!"
Our Kensington flat cost only six quid a week, and it had its own bathroom (something even the owner didn't have). Mind you, it was in 1967. Anyway, where I am now there's a countryman living up the road. Do we constitute an enclave?
Qu'ils mangent de la brioche !
If this is true then i'm sure Cameron, who was quoted as not being able to remember how many houses he owned, can definitely roll out the red carpet and put a few up for couple of nights. He is a caring giving sort of chap.
Oh my God. This is a crisis. What shall be done?
"Response to distoviolin, 27 August 2012 3:40am

Have no fear. I have alerted all relevant aid agencies and the UN. We can only but hope that this travesty to humankind will be remedied forthwith.
I will mention our French cousins in my prayers."
An actual interview with one of the poor lambs (pauvres agneaux?)might have added a lot of interest to this story.
Such problems.
"They should move to Quebec, Canada. Their £40m will buy a village, a private trout stream, and they'll have enough money left over for a 30,000 square foot manor house.
Or they could buy a castle on one of the Thousand Islands in the Gulf of St Lawrence."
"The problem is that Britain's tax laws favour non-residents.
That means that people who made immense amounts of money with questionable business acquisitions, on the black market, or by confiscating their nation's mineral wealth for personal gain, move to England since they won't be taxed.
These transients gain all the benefits of British culture, the general population's reputation for integrity, and the protection of British policing and British military forces, with almost none of the taxation that pays for it.
And let us face it, these French ""immigrants"" are not looking to immigrate -- they're transients looking for a tax break, just like the UK's Russian oligarchs are transients looking for an escape route out of Putin's Russia, and Britain's arab royalty are looking for an playground free from sharia law and the religious police."
"Response to garry66, 27 August 2012 3:23am
This all fits in with Cameron's plan to sell off council houses worth more than a million pounds -- so the French can buy them."
"Response to thesweeneytodd, 27 August 2012 1:25am
""Ridiculous comment...the French ex-pats are moving to the UK to avoid the barbaric taxes introduced by Hollande. They are of course tax payers in the UK.""
You make an leap of illogic there, thesweeneytodd.
They're immigrating to escape taxes in France. It does not logically follow that they'll pay taxes in the UK.
In fact someone prepared to migrate to escape taxes is likely to do many less complex things to escape taxes, all the more so because patriotism is no longer be a factor.
What the ultra-wealthy immigrate to the UK for is for is Britain's greater tax loopholes, and its safety.
There are other countries with lower tax rates, but within the EU, the UK is the leading major safe country regarding tax loopholes for the ultra-wealthy.
You can expect some VAT from these ultra-wealthy folks, some license fees, and little more.
Regular middle-class French people, well, they're different, here to do jobs, having the same problems regular Brits have, and that is fine."
Poor they. They shall have to live along with people of different nationalities instead of staying entre nous riches Français.
"Foie gras.
Awful."
* poor "entre nous riches Français" they have to live with racist contradiction in low-life snobery....i love this obsolet period....
If they can now afford the absurd prices, then this whole article doesn't make any sense.
Come the revolution, comrade....
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I for one welcome our new humble, fragrant Gallic overlords.
"Response to StewE17, 27 August 2012 7:36am
""...not even the richest...can now afford...'"
I lived in bedsitters in Chelsea (£3 a week), South Kensington (£3) and Hampstead (£2. 5s). Come to think of it, a friend had a room in Mayfair, above an office, for about the same rent or less. I speak, you will have guessed, from the perspective of age.
"Response to newenergyspace, 27 August 2012 12:30am

Up here in the Communitarian People's Constitutional Monarchy (forced) of Scotland we have given up on that happening and are trying to leave London. However they are cutting up rough and denying our right to self determination under International Law.
If the walled city of London ever secedes then beware. It will wall off the motorways that radiate from it like the filopodia of a metastatic cancer cell and annexe walled enclaves in every large city and parts of the countryside and there will be nothing you can do about it."
"Response to Pinturicchio10, 27 August 2012 6:12am
Curiously, in French you need to say ""entre nous autres riches Français"", even if they mean themselves."
A few French are also up here in Scouserville looking for the nearest Leader Price to L1...
"Response to Donncadh, 27 August 2012 8:06am
And Joni Mitchell made hippy songs about ""gay"" mornings in Chelsea...ooo arrrrr dem were the days. :)"
"we see an impact from any country where there is trouble"". Russians and eastern Europeans arrive with serious money. Last year it was Egyptians.
I think this is one instance where the idiom ""loot"" might be used instead of ""money""."
"The British and their housing snobbery is frankly a joke. On Saturday I visited a Belgian friend - by no means a wealthy expat but a single woman who bought a house in the country near Aalst.
She has a house in a beautiful area (that can hold its own against any Surrey stockbrokers' belt) complete with huge mature garden, a massive garage which used to be an atelier and which she is thinking of converting into a combined living space with kitchen and separate office. In the house itself the downstairs living space comprises a salon, dining room and indoor conservatory (there's an outdoor one as well). The garden tails off into fields where ponies roam freely.
All this for a fraction of the price anyone would pay in London, the Home Countries or even Paris.
Properties in London are simply not worth the asking prices - not even houses in areas like Chelsea or Belgravia. You can get better, bigger and more luxurious in Brussels or Antwerp. This is also true of cities like Berlin where huge pre-war houses and apartments can be had for a much more reasonable price than in the UK.
Time to start building more homes in the UK so that these overrated properties in London and elsewhere can finally settle at their true, much lower price level."
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My local pub is French run in Teddington.
Move along, please. There's no story here.
"All the best houses are probably snapped up by Russian err, biznismyen and biznismyenkas like the lovely wife of the ex mayor of Moscow reputed to have amassed over a billion dollars (by shopping for bargains I suppose) and now residing happily in the UK with her equally charming husband Yuri, sacked for no apparent reason.
It's nice to know that this country has not lost it's humanitarien approach to those fleeing from oppression in their own countries."
"Response to Titangrip, 27 August 2012 8:20am
Wasn't that Chelsea in NY?"
"Response to Maite, 27 August 2012 9:01am
Yes it was.
But the two were similar in character, once upon a time."
"Response to Wagram, 27 August 2012 8:37am
Ah! no doubt proving that the expression 'Absinthe makes the heart grow stronger'"
"We must look after the wery wealthy in Bwitan!
Then it will twickle down and we'll all get wery, wery, wery wich!!"
"We must look after the wery wealthy in Bwitan!
Then it will twickle down and we'll all get wery, wery, wery wich!!"
"They are very welcome, as long as they pay their way and contribute to the society they choose to live in. I doubt there's much of a problem with that.
If there is a downside to this type of immigration, especially in London, it is the knock-on effect on house prices lower down the ladder. (I know, yawn). Homes become even less affordable."
"Response to Thatlotnextdoor, 27 August 2012 8:54am
Thatlotnextdoor
27 August 2012 8:54AM
Move along, please. There's no story here.
Circulez, circulez, y'a rien à voir .........
(Ici Londres, ici Londres ...)"
and not a single fuck was given
"Response to ManchePaul, 27 August 2012 2:16am

Why do you think that might be? Or does your mind not extend that far?"
"Surely the major fuel for house prices rocketing in London and the home counties has been the influx of rich immigrants (oooops! - they're rich - I must mean emigres - only the poor are immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers etc). Numerous reports over the years in the Guardian and elsewhere have documented these effects. These people -like a large number of the super-rich Brits - don't pay UK tax and don't pay tax in their own countries. They force up the price of UK housing (this is one area where the notional ""trickle-down"" effect really does work) and seriously affect the cost of living of those who live and work here and who contribute to the general wealth and welfare of the nation. Their housing costs are subsidised by the amount of tax they avoid and to a far greater degree than any housing benefit paid to genuine claimants.
Our government pays lip service to the genuine need to clamp down on the international merry-go-round of tax-avoidance/evasion havens, yet it institutes a system of taxation explicitly aimed at attracting these leeches to our shores. The great British public is regularly whipped up into a frenzy of hate against the poor who rob the national exchequer of social security payments, yet it they ignore the far vaster sums involved in the international tax avoidance schemes which benefit their own proprietors - notably the owners of the Torygraph, Mail and the Murdoch empire of filth - and their ilk.
A fair tax on these phoney non-doms would benefit the rest of us by bringing in much more tax revenue and/or reducing the upward pressure on house prices.
It won't happen, of course - Daily Wail headline ""Government tax grab on emigres causes house price slump"". Anyway, Call Me Dave is in hock to too many rich benficiaries of the exisiting system - and so are the rest of the parliamentary caterpillars of the commonwealth."
"Response to bergisman, 27 August 2012 9:43am
Finally. I think this is the story here - to the extent that there is one at all. What a silly article."
"Response to ManchePaul, 27 August 2012 2:16am

As the piece is about sky high property prices in certain SW postcodes I reckon EDF and those other French utility companies must pay their employees very well. They'd have to be making loads of money somewhere out of someone, for youngish middle class employees to buy multimillion pound houses..
Oh wait a minute...."
"Response to Brusselsexpats, 27 August 2012 8:31am
This is not comparable in any way. Of course a house in the middle of nowhere in a country with little cultural interest to most people is going to be cheaper than a house in probably one of the best cities in the world. London is over-priced but that is because people want to live here."
"Response to GreenKnighht, 27 August 2012 5:38am

I agree, but you've missed something. If they have been living in France up to now, then they are taxpayers there. France does not have the UK's tax loopholes and never has. They are not moving to the UK to avoid paying taxes at all. They would be here already. The most logical conclusion is they will pay taxes here, but less than they would now pay in France.
Golden Square has been priced out of the market by the mega-rich of every nation, including France, who can take advantage of the UK tax exemption for non-residents. Central London homes are mostly empty most of the time. The French who traditionally lived in Golden Square actually live there, they have families, they need schools. They are not non-residents and they pay taxes. They are the local community. I know because I live there too, they live all around me. We all pay taxes because, like everyone else, we have to.
The problem is not with the French community that brings life to this part of London, but the non-resident tax loophole.
Which is not to say that the French moving now to avoid higher taxes are not unpatriotic. They are, and that Cameron would welcome them with open arms speak volumes about what he thinks of national unity, supporting ones community or anything else except money."
Land Value Taxes would sort this out.
"Enlighten us as to why London is so popular, do they go to the Opera and then pop along to Stringfellows of an evening?
If I was rich I'd want to live somewhere nice with good weather, Mediterranean say, not The Smoke.
If I was middle income I'd stick it as long as I could for the work then leave for a Market Town at the earliest opportunity.
If your'e poor you dont really get many choices so you make the most of it wherever you live"
"Response to mattd, 27 August 2012 10:06am
Mattd, my post was in response to yours"
"Response to mattd, 27 August 2012 10:06am

Indeed. I've lived in Brussels and Antwerp. Very nice but not A-list like central London or Paris. Neither is Berlin (German TV property porn show last week - 750k pad in ""affordable"" Berlin: ""oooh, great, less than half Munich prices""). The latter is also mainly rental (particularly sought-after areas) and that and the idea of apartments are also ""no-no""s to most UK demand anyway.
As to the article, the suggestion that young workers for the likes of EDF (basically well-educated and capable but likely to earn their living implementing company policy and so really not ""all that"") are all after 1.5 million pads in Fulham is modern entitlement culture down to a tee. It goes a long way to explaining why such markets are red hot and will probably stay that way.
It's a bit rich to suggest that ""expecting the best address"" is some unique French foible!"
"Ethnic Cleansing of the working-class in Pimlico.
Arms-extended to the International Super Rich to populate the gap.
In 2020, Britain's Conservative Government, lead by the comic buffon Boris Johnson, announced the building of a fortified wall through Trafalgar Square to separate East and West London. Boris said;
"" We must think of West London now as an investment in the global economy. London is proud of its multicultural, diverse heritage - as such we welcome people from all parts of the Globe! With a securing deposit of 2 million, to come and settle in this fantastic part of London and enjoy our rich and splendid heritage.""
""Service staff, from the other side of the wall, will be bussed in from East London and the Olympic village - now renamed the Stepney School for Butlers and Domestics."""
"Response to whitworthflange, 27 August 2012 10:06am
The estate agent's press release is based around the concept of rich people leaving France for London to escape Hollande's tax increases, and finding prices high is South Kensington. It is a stupid self serving puff, with no connection with any wider reality. There may be a handful of people leaving France for tax reasons, but I don't think most of them would be coming to London. House and flat prices in similar areas of Paris are more expensive than London. The vast majority of French people in London are young people working in offices, hospitality and all the other ordinary jobs. Here are other Guardian articles about the French in London which are more sensible than Mr Muir's peice:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2012/feb/29/french-london-francois-hollande?INTCMP=SRCH
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/french-election-blog-2012/2012/mar/27/london-sarkozy-french-expats?INTCMP=SRCH"
Could we ask the French Government how they manage to make the super rich pay their taxes if they remain in France?
Thankfully they haven't yet discovered that North London is far better....
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More Arsenhole fans on the way.
"We are so corrupt .
250,000 Russians in London many with dodgy money screwed from their compatriots.
Rich Greeks and Italians , I think their countries could do with some of that money.
Cameron rolling out the red carpet for the French who want to avoid taxes.
Amazon
Phillip Green
Lord Ashcroft
We are all in this together"
Pointless, empty article. Come on Guardian. On website front page too? Honestly.
"Response to dyatel42, 27 August 2012 8:59am
did you say 'lovely'? at least she got all thosehappy memories to live on."
Le boo, le hoo :'(
"Yawn to all the anti-London comments.
As for the French tax exiles - ain't life a bitch? All the more sweet that the properties are out of their reach because of their own failed Euro experiment and (even better) their preferred locations have been bought up by Arabs. Sweet."
First world problems...
"You hit the nail right on the head, GreenKnight:
British tax laws favouring non-residents over UK citizens are indeed part of the problem.
Those wealthy exiles from France, Italy, Greece etc. actually end up screwing TWO governments and TWO countries:
- their governments at home because they usually try to avoid paying taxes at home at any costs,
- their home economies because, in some cases like eg. Greece, Italy and many African countries,
the massive withdrawal of financial resources from their home countries' markets causes problems for the banks and the general cash flow in their home countries,
- the UK government because these people are using the infrastructure over here but usually only pay a ridiculously small amount of tax (percentage wise) on their assets, compared to UK citizens.
The UK government should revise its current taxation scheme of non-residents and the European Union should also look into this as this problem does not only exist between France and the UK but also between France and Belgium, Germany and Luxembourg, Belgium and the Netherlands etc.
However, with the current occupant of No 10, I don't really expect any changes to happen.
In that case, France should try to negotiate a new, bilateral treaty on taxation with the UK, making the situation fairer for everyone involved.
If that doesn't work. France ought to pass legislation which would allow for easier confiscation of any material and/ or financial goods these people still hold in France.
Or revoke their citizenship (which won't work, I know).
Don't get me wrong, I am very much in favour of the free movement of goods and people within the European Union and definitely do not want this to end (nb. I myself am currently living and working in a country other than my home country).
Fair taxation schemes for anyone is what I'm calling for."
"This is not a gripe at the author (I know the author doesn't write the standfirst), but what exactly is the difference between an expat and an immigrant?
Surely ""wealthy French immigrants"", no? What on earth is wrong with that?
Or perhaps ""wealthy French economic migrants""? Nothing to be ashamed of - I'm an economic migrant myself and proud of it. Being an economic migrant signifies that you have the gumption to stop whining about how others owe you a living, get off your arse, leave your comfort zone and go where you feel can reap the best rewards from your intelligence and hard work. (And your modesty, of course.)
Or if you really prefer to use the word ""expat"", then fine, by all means, but let's have a bit of consistency please. In which case I would expect to see you writing about the Somalian expat community in the UK or African expats arriving on Lampedusa."
"Response to lessofyourlip, 27 August 2012 12:24pm
I should point out that when I wrote about economic migration, I was merely being a bit flippant - I certainly don't condone people becoming resident in a foreign country purely for tax purposes, in order to screw their own government out of tax. My own situation bears absolutely no resemblance to that of these poor dears who can't afford to live in Belgravia, diddums..."
"Are they job snobs too, or just postcode snobs?
Really, what a piece of property porn. As if we didn't have any other problems."
I don't know how I can control myself. I am weeping in despair at the horrendous suffering these poor, innocent Frenchmen must undergo. Is there no compassion in the world today? Can we do nothing? Where are the Disaster Emergency Committee in all of this? Won't someone think of the children?
"the 'golden square' - nothing to do with Golden Square then - they wouldn't all fit in there.
What an utterly 'alternative reality' piece of journalism. Probably applies to a handful of French people but otherwise is bunk. Leads you through its own reality, to culminate in the notion that South Ken is 'still very French'.
Well that's passed me by in over twenty years of London living, including commuting to the tube there every day for the years I worked in Chelsea. Unless you count the schoolkids visiting the museums, maybe.
As for some of the comments, are we anti-immigration now, even towards those who bring their own money? Surely not."
I'm a Londoner and love London, but I will be the first to admit that there is something incredibly dysfunctional about the city's place within the rest of the U.K. It's like a force of nature that is going unchecked and is completely unsustainable.
"Response to Brusselsexpats, 27 August 2012 8:31am

Give over!
We don't need any more houses round here. There aren't any jobs, and all the construction does is attract the grasping BTL scum from down south. Let's build a wall around the M25 and leave them to stew in their own ordure."
"This is, frankly, bollocks. A lot of French people also come to work in London. They are not here to be tax exiles but to further their careers and extend their skills. There are some very talented musicians, graphic designers, typographers and website programmers from France working here as there are limited opportunities to find a job in Paris. That is a drain that the French president should be concerned with.
The rich who are fleeing deserve contempt. Also you do have to wonder what it says about us that we will take anyone provided they have money."
"Response to Titangrip, 27 August 2012 8:20am
Crap.. the word ""gay"" is not in the lyrics of Chelsea Morning..but if it were what's your point exactly?"
"Response to imlistening, 27 August 2012 1:04pm
and as a handy by product they seem to pay less tax!"
I find it difficult to sympathise with people who can't afford a £1.5 million property and will have to make do with a measly pad that is a couple of crumbs in to the seven-figure band. How will they ever cope?
Hideously pathetic article suggesting that every French person living in London is wealthy, originally from Paris and racist, whilst at the same time pointing to the ever decline of France, whose rich class is getting less rich, etc. Is this the Guardian or the Daily Mail??
The French are welcome to it at any price. London: what a shithole ...
"Response to Mudhutter, 27 August 2012 10:39am
Yes people who go to the opera normally finish the evening off with a nightcap in Stringfellows."
"David Cameron says he'll ""roll out the red carpet"".
More likely to roll out his big red tongue."
"Response to Shebizzle, 27 August 2012 1:46am

Battersea and Clapham, more like. East London's too much like Marseille."
"Response to newenergyspace, 27 August 2012 12:30am

Parliament is in recess, and today is a bank holiday.
However, you can find proper news if you look: Lion on the loose in Essex"
Who the hell would want to live in these areas anyway? There are no Lidls or Aldis, would much rather live in Penge.
I'm an expat myself but I can't believe that you really think it necessary to write about how people from a certain nation who like to live in a certain area can no longer afford to do so. Must be something of a commone occurence.
south ken, haha, what a soulless dump. don't know why anyone would to live there.
"Response to Smogbound, 27 August 2012 11:11am
""Could we ask the French Government how they manage to make the super rich pay their taxes if they remain in France?""
Very few people will pay Hollande's 75% tax rate. They will either leave or rearrange their affairs. Same thing happened here in the 70's when Labour raised tax rates to punitive levels and tax revenues from the highest earners dropped. Of course there will be a few people who will pay this tax but, overall, it is likely to lead to lower revenues. This is just a political gesture that will cause longer term damage to the French economy."
Funny how the Grauniad attracts leftie readers yet covers mainly the wealthy in their magazine, and living articles. I don't care about the rich French , their wealth won't trickle down. As for another article about relocating from a French Chateau to North London, jeez I could live the next twenty years on that outlay
How funny. They leave France to evade higher taxes and then find that they have to piss away their not-so-hard-earned cash on London real estate. And when that is all done, they live in London. What a joy that will be after Paris. Whatever. They all--Greek, Italian, French or wherever from millkonaires--seem like the worst sort of unpatriotic a***holes to me. They've milked their home countries for all they are worth, allowed their governments to save their "investments" with tax money, but when it comes to shouldering a share of the burden, they are off. That this sort of people consider London their obvious choice of escape, says a lot about Britain.
"Response to thesweeneytodd, 27 August 2012 1:25am
And of course those same half a million odd rich french will also use the airport, go shopping, hop on the train, eat in fabulously expensive restaurants, visit their private doctor, redecorate their house, buy a car and all the other every day cash rich occupations that contribute to our coffers. They most probably spend and contribute millions more than the average person from the UK. Oh and who knows perhaps some of these disgustingly rich people might set up shop here or move their business here."
Add 50 percent to that, and you can get yourself a brand new Airbus A320. That's some perspective.
Quelle dommage.
"Response to spum, 27 August 2012 4:23pm

The money rich people have hasn't been created by themselves and which they philanthropically chuck a bit of it to the plebs, it's money they've taken from the plebs in the first place."
"Response to ammypam, 27 August 2012 5:07pm
Correction: Quel dommage."
"Response to redshrink, 27 August 2012 4:12pm
Actually it does, they come because they LIKE the place. there are far more financially advantageous places for the rich to live."
"Response to ThatDamnedFly, 27 August 2012 1:23pm
try Paris, it's far more merdier, outside the fabled and over rated centre it really is a dump."
"When I clicked the link it was broken.
I presume it is 75% income tax. In that case if they are over here then presumably they will bring their jobs with them? Or do they expect to find work here?"
What a mean-minded piece! These super rich foreigners bring untold riches to our little nation; not only in the form of employment opportunities such as car valeting, gardening and food preparation but they help spread the sophistication and cultural ease that only very rich people feel as natural. I literally take my hat of to them. I suppose the Marxist author would like to nationalise these beautiful houses and fill them up with third world torture victims and unemployed northerners? The influx of billionaires is good news for us all and we should be proud; it is a vindication of the governments policy of reducing tax for the hard working super rich. To further encourage their immigration couldn't we, once this socialist nonsense of allowing the disabled to play sport is over, convert the Olympic lanes into Billionaire lanes to make life a little easier for them?
"Response to ammypam, 27 August 2012 5:07pm
Quelle dommage.
Bollocks.
Quelle fromage"
Let them eat...gateau...
"Response to studio54inc, 27 August 2012 6:06pm
Let them eat...gateau...
Notting Hill Gateau"
Just more proof the the capital city of the UK has nothing in common with the UK ... roll on Scottish independence.
"Response to nyxpersephone, 27 August 2012 12:17pm
Best post so far!
Parasites - and that's a compliment."
All aboard the Ayn Express. Next stop, St Helena.
"Response to Gordonbnt, 27 August 2012 10:41am
So the City is split from the West End?
Any chance we could persuade President Boris (see what I did there) to put a wall around the City too? And then perhaps fill it with water...."
"Response to Aiktor, 27 August 2012 4:41pm
I think you'd have to double the £40m rather than halve it. For a mere £20m I'd consider buying one..."
It's extraordinary how much better London is than anywhere else in the UK.
What kind of Guardian reader gives a flying toss about the property issues of the wealthy, regardless of what country they come from? Leave it to the fucking Telegraph and stop wasting ink.
Excusez-moi pendant que je ne verserai pas une larme.
"Response to chm4lm, 27 August 2012 7:34pm
Well, that depends on which part of London you are talking about. Overall, there have been massive population changes during the last 15 years, and yet tourists come to see the English icons: Buck House, Tower of London, Horse-Guards, St. Pauls and other traditional sights."
"Response to Michaeletc, 27 August 2012 7:34pm
Of course we should be informed about the wealthy parasites. The CP took workers to The Savoy in the 1930s to expose how the rich get the gravy. The more these excesses are exposed, the better.
They are definitively not 'just like us' and we are not all in this together!"
If you hear a dripping sound, don't worry. It's just my heart bleeding.
"Response to castalla, 27 August 2012 8:23pm
I would have thought it more interesting to read about the property woes of those outside of the wealthy 1%. I think that issue warrants much more attention.
However, yes, I agree that the wealthy and their excesses just be exposed. However, the piece above seems to present it as some sort of social issue that we should be concerned about.
Time for me to switch to the Morning Star, I guess."
"Response to Michaeletc, 27 August 2012 9:38pm
We have tons of reports, info on the state of the disadvantaged. So much, the situation has almost become normalised. The 1% meanwhile escape real scrutiny. Whether intentional or not, this article does expose another level of excess."
Council housing?
By the time all the world's tax evaders have come together in the UK, all the UK's tax payers will have had to emigrate to other countries. Net balance doesn't look good for the UK in the long run.
"Response to castalla, 27 August 2012 10:23pm
Leave me alone, bully!"
"Response to Michaeletc, 27 August 2012 11:57pm
???"
"Response to StewE17, 27 August 2012 7:36am
Er, the sentence was ""not even the richest French.... can now afford the absurd prices."" That means they CAN""T afford the prices. The clue is in the first word of the sentence, NOT. You don't make any sense."
Poor, wee souls.
"Response to castalla, 28 August 2012 12:08am
Mum, mum, mum, MUM, MUM, MUUUUUM."
Ah, the mentality of the French Republic! Viva La Revolution.
"Response to ammypam, 27 August 2012 5:10pm
Of course. But the majority of successful people are not bankers. They just happen to be smarter or work harder. And even some bankers are both. That's life. No one ever said it was going to be fair. If you want fair then you end up with a mess like cuba."
"Response to spum, 27 August 2012 4:23pm
Yes, who knows. maybe they do that. Or not. Maybe they claim non-domicicled resident status, pay no tax at all on their capital investments in off-shore bank accounts. Maybe the'll employ a few cleaners and serfs to boost the British economy.
The same tired old argument has been used over and over, but in fact, non-tax paying rich people contribute virtually nothing to the UK economy that would be of any use to the rest of the population. I know it is supposed be ""trickle down economy"", but it is actually more like pissing on other people's backs."
"Response to benly, 27 August 2012 6:02pm
Quite right. Thinking about it, I wonder if offering billionaires a little start up package of say, a Bentley and a few work experience serfs or simply a financial incentive of a few million would not send a clearer message to the wealthiest how much they are valued for their, erm, contribution and, uh, culture (What a cultural desert had London been before the arrival of its Russian robber ba..., sorry, oligarchs! After all, London is and will be competing with Dubai, Singapore, Monte Carlo, and etc. If London wants a string of shiny glittery billionaires hanging around its neck, trickling down its decolleté, the British population should know that--for them, at least--nothing in life is free, least of all such dazzling jewellery."
It might be tired and it might be old but it's still a simple fact that the highest 1% of earners pay almost 30% of income taxes. The average person in the Uk has just 2000 quid in the bank. And of course the vast majority of foreigners do spend extraordinary sums of money here. Even if they don't live here then they'll contribute huge amounts in stamp duty when they do sell the place. The reason they're all here isn't because they love england, but because it is deemed as a safe haven.
"Response to markyG888, 27 August 2012 1:06pm
why ""crap"" and no they are not. I had no point beyond I suppose illustrating that things were different in the past, as for example the meaning of the word gay. Seemed appropriate to me so can I ask why so quick off the mark?"
Looks like there's no arguments here...
Hmmm, a Guardian feature devoted to an Irishman making bets that accord with prevailing Irish sentiments. Glendenning would bet for Slovenia and against England even with much lower odds on a Slovenia victory. And he would, of course, bet on South Africa against France after the French team cheated to put the screws to Ireland. So what's entertaining about watching an Irishman doing the predictable? Oh, I see, it's for charity, which makes it alright. The things we have to put up with for charity's sake. By the way, Glendenning is hilarious, and I like him very much. His minute by minute report on England against Algeria was classic.
I want to see England linger around a bit longer, only to see how their implosion matches up against the French one ;)
"I'd probably make that same bet, if I had to pick one of those. bit of a crap choice, really.
Personally I'd buy on the ""number of pointless cuts to David Beckham"" spread market."
"Peter323: Hmmm, a Guardian feature devoted to an Irishman making bets that accord with prevailing Irish sentiments. Glendenning would bet for Slovenia and against England even with much lower odds on a Slovenia victory.
Unlike you, I have a mind of my own."
"The value bet of the day is backing Slovenia, England have been chronic so far in the tournament but still think they can win 2-0.
The odds on a player getting sent off looks tempting if Cesar seeks revenge on Rooney, Terry is outpaced by a Slovenian defender he may have to bring him down plus he will pumped up after the fight with Capello.
I am sure Barry's bet of last weekend had to be the Faithful on the handicap against Galway .........."
The fifth element is of course the ideology that political expediency overrides any economic policy considerations for governments funded by right wing corporate entities.
"This sounds interesting: full marks to the author for looking at the wider stage when so many studies focus on Thatcher/Reagan to the exclusion of all else. I hope to see more of this kind of thing as the passage of time allows perspective.
I don't know whether the notion of a single year as crux can ever be more than a peg on which to hang a thesis. Nonetheless, for British people of my age (55) 1979-80 is the most obvious candidate for 'when it all changed', for good or ill. There's a good case for arguing continuity with the present from that date. Perhaps we should start to call 1914-79 'the short twentieth century'."
"Christian Caryl should have studied Iran much more. He does not realise that during last Iranian Shah the number of mosques increased by 50 folds. The late Shah believed that the clergy were his allies as they proved their backing during deposing of Iranian prime minister in 1953.
Tehran in 1970s was less westernised than Cairo or even Baghdad. It is so funny when one reads such ill informed comments by some Texas chap."
All the Shahs of Iran have been allies of the clergy. It all started 3000 years ago when Median and later Persian kings of Iran tied their rule with Ahoora Mazda (God). However it was the Sassanids who strengthened the bond between rulers and the Zoroastrian clergy. Safavids in the 15th century re established the bond with the clergy, this time they were Shia clergy, this alignment continued until 1979.
"Quote ""But their arrival also takes the urgency out of upskilling our own undertrained workforce. (Wouldn't rapidly trained Newham apprentices be building the Olympic venues if the Poles weren't?)""
Why doesn't the UK have a skilled workforce?
1 The skills have emigrated - US, Australia, Canada, Spain etc. 2 The Labour Govt destroyed the state education system in 1968 by getting rid of grammer schools and technical colleges in exchange for rubbish for all which has resulted in a significant diminutition of social mobility. 3 The welfare support of the UK populace in more deprived or de-industrialised areas has resulted in a population that thank you very much doesn't need to do anything to survive living on the black economy and handouts. No worries mate! Hence no internal migration to where the work is other than in white vans."
Whilst Blair insists that 50% of 18-to-25YOs go to university, Britain has a shortfall in skilled manual labour such as electricians and plumbers. Thsi is because Blair equates white-collar jobs with economic advance, and thus thinks a call centre worker on the minimum wage (but besuited!) is worht more than the man who can correctly wire up your house. The price of this dogmatic folly is now evident for all to see. But the Bliar just can't see it.
Ms Toynbee's views are always worth a second look. However, in this instance, she has taken her eye off the ball. She states: "Another big migration could imperil the EU itself." She has quite [deliberately] overlooked Blair's transparent attempt to undermine {never mind 'imperil') the EU Project.
"Migrants make up only 8.7% of the UK's population but pay 10.2% of its income tax
If Lakshmi Mittal and Roman Abramovitch and Hans Rausing paid Income Tsx imagine how these contributions from ""migrants"" would look !!!!
If you have a Minimum Wage you will obviously import labour to undercut it as in the USA.
The Germans make it compulsory to register - the forms are countersigned by the landlord to show how many square-metres living space each person has - Britain is the land of over-regulation in some areas and laisser-faire in others.
If wages are kept low enough Tax Credits can cause explosive growth in Public Spending disguised as Negative Income Tax"
"Politicians of the right love immigration because they know that immigrants tend to vote for the right-wing status quo out of fear that they will be seen as 'different' etc. Immigration is yet another way to reduce the incidence of political activism.
Add the fear of 'terrorism', fingerprinted and iris-scanned ID cards, CCTV cameras at the level of one per 22 people and we have a totalitarian state for many and a capitalist free-for-all for the few.
You can focus all you like on individual 'issues' - there is truly only one issue now: The freedoms and rights of individual humans.
Freedom to opt out of:
Passports health system education system social security system
We are VERY close to the State controlling the people, instead of the People controlling the State.
Frightening."
"thanks to kimpatsu who made the 4 th point
as he says the UK's young people are wasting their time in pointless education or wandering around the world instead of working.
Since the school-leaving age was increased to 16 and then to a de facto 18 just to get young people off the dole why not lower it to 14 now there's a scarcity of labour.
All this tripe about training:- If you can read, write, 'rithmetic with some communication and problem-solving skills based on scientific method you can do anything.
If I remember correctly some abilities esp. maths/sciencies peak from 16-25. Why waste this energy and ability?"
I am glad to see someone of the left, and with sympathies with trade unions, raise this issue. The ansawer is partly, as Polly points out, to strengthen and enforce working conditions regulations, even if the black economy cannot be entirely eliminated.
As Polly points out, the UK has a strategic problem with training its own people to do necessary non-white collar jobs. The reasons why this problem has occured are varied. However, at least one factor has been the large-scale reduction in company supported (NOT sponsored!) training schemes that took people at 16 and turned them into craftsmen (plumbers, electricians, mechanics, carpenters,.....) and professional engineers. The electricity boards (remember them?) would on average each year each take about 40 to 50 craft and engineering students. Now, since "privatisation" 5 to 6 (if you are lucky). Water boards? - same. British Rail? (yawn). Training of craftsmen and professional engineers was done in a diverse fashion. Technical colleges and Universities provided the academic element, companies provided the practical and experience aspects. Nobody forced these organisations to do this - it was something they simply did as a responsible part of UK society. It will be very difficult to move back to this situation given the focus on the bottom line that has been a la mode with Uk companies for some time. In my view (am I wrong?) much of the work done by young people in the "service" economy falls into the class of Mcjobs. Perhaps they are happy doing such work, or is it a case that they have never been offered an alternative? Those bothering to read this would be correct in assuming that I was an engineering student apprentice. The local electricity board put me through tech college and university and I came out with a dregree, as a fully trained power engineer and as a competent electrician. By the way RedSquare, basic skills are useful but that is all they are. I assume that you would prefer a trained electrician/plumber/carpenter to undertake work for you as opposed to somebody that learnt as they went along? Or extending this, how complex do you think it is to run a power network (or for that matter a rail network) in a safe fashion.
"Britain has always had a poor record on education and training, tardily and reluctantly implementing a limited national education system when it became evident in the late nineteenth century that Germany was outstripping us industrially. It was thought more important that Oxford should turn out graduates in the classics who for some reason were believed to be ideally suited to the administration of the Empire. Our productivity still languishes in the second division when compared to our competitors.
This government has said that immigration is necessary to support an ageing population, but the population did not age over the weekend. Governments of all political stripes have had decades to prepare but have failed to do so. This is just one more aspect of Britain's chronic failure to invest.
The question is, when the millions of new immigrants reach retirement, who will support them?"
"Quote: ""But their arrival also takes the urgency out of upskilling our own undertrained workforce. (Wouldn't rapidly trained Newham apprentices be building the Olympic venues if the Poles weren't?)""
Undoubtedly there would be some rapidly trained people who would be able to help. However there would be a substantial number of unemployed who would think ""why train to work in a not really well paid job when I can sit at home, watch big brother and get benefits"". People don't want to be come plumbers, builders etc so training is pointless."
"Blair insists this, Blair attempts to do that, look what an ass Blair has been over this or that policy... for the sake of sensible debate, can we please stop reducing all areas of government policy to the desires of one man?
On the subject of economic migrants, I agree it's a tough nut to crack. Some fill skills gaps in our labour force, others undercut domestic workers in low-paid jobs. It's tricky to maintain such different wage levels and standards of living when people are free(ish) to move across boundaries to work and live if they choose. Perhaps we should accept that some levelling of wages is bound to occur across the EU, and as a high wage earning country ours will fall somewhat?"
"I am getting sick and tired of reading comments from people who imagine that you can sit on your a*se all day and collect benefits instead of working.
IT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE!
1. You ***must*** have 2 solid years of class one contributions before you will be given a penny of JSA.
2. You **Will** be interviewed every 2 weeks to make sure that you are chasing jobs.
3. Employers **will** without doubt reject all applicants over the age of 40.
Regarding the topic, employers will take on the cheapest labour and remeber, an incomer ***can** pay less tax due to variuos scams - LEGALLY!
Check your facts or go down to JobCentre Plus! and ask before you post!"
"If all this immigration really is such a problem then why is Sweden such a paradise that Polly continually tells us we must be more like it? If immigration reduces social justice, increases the gaps between rich and poor, then why does Sweden have, as Polly keeps telling us, a more egalitarian distribution of income and greater social justice?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_for_pop-immigration-foreign-population
Sweden has more immigrants than the UK does.
Clearly, if we are to become more like Sweden, as Ms. Toynbee tells us we ought to be, we therefore need to have more immigration, not less.
To go along with abolishing the national minimum wage (Sweden does not have one), abolishing inheritance tax (Sweden does not have one), adopting a pure voucher system for the financing of education (Sweden has one) and abolishing the National health system and replacing it with one based on local taxation paying for local health care (the Swedish system is based upon the counties).
More on the misunderstandings about the economics of immigration and social justice here:
http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2006/08/polly_on_immigr.html"
"True points made, I think, especially when it comes to exploitation of migrant workers, something which, by depressing wages, hurts us all. But to take things in a global perspective, this sort of migration can be very helpful to poorer countries, providing a source of income for families through wages being sent home, promoting development on a local scale.
And, honestly, I don't think there is a way to stop illegal immigration: it's not defeatism to note that, where such incredible inequality exists as does in this world, people are willing to risk anything to make a better life for themselves and their families. It's like terrorism, in a way: you can try and stop it by being tough on it, and maybe you'll succeed for a while, but you're just trying to keep a lid on it, and people will slip through the cracks, unless you satart tackling the underlying causes."
"Agree with the analysis. It's all very well having growth; the point is who gets the growth. And secondly, how much of this growth - particularly that produced by UK subsidiaries of overseas companies - actually stays in the UK rather than winging its way back to its country of origin. You're right, in a country as socially and economically Balkanised as the UK with wealth and income differentials similar to Georgia and Azerbaijan per capita GDP is indeed meaningless.
Where I part company is with your belief that New Labour is remotely interested in doing anything about it. New Labour is light years away from anything which could be described as social democratic. Moreover, from the point of view of the New Labour nomenklatura its policies have been an astounding success. What you and I might see as the problem they see as the solution. So that the problems thrown up by globalisation will be cured by MORE globalisation.
Finally, the whole issue of EU enlargement was a cynical ploy to smash to original Delors vision of a social Europe. The object was to create a low-wage hinterland in the East as part of a more general neo-liberal economic agenda for Europe as a whole.
You can have Euro deepening (Delors) or you can have Euro widening (Thatcher Blair) but you can't have both."
The one answer though far from a total solution - is a strengthening of trade unions and labour laws to 1. attract and bind in immigrant workers into unions and 2. to stop unscrupulous employers. Unfortunately, like most SDPers from the 1980s Polly is not too keen on unions, even when they could play a useful and valuable role, as in this case.
'Finally, the whole issue of EU enlargement was a cynical ploy to smash to original Delors vision of a social Europe. The object was to create a low-wage hinterland in the East as part of a more general neo-liberal economic agenda for Europe as a whole.' : otherone . Spot on . This is no unforseen outcome ; it is design not accident . The CBI are so so grateful . They don't give a stuff that many of the new cheap workers can't read the health and safety notices . In fact it's better cos they can't read the union literature either.
"Blimey. Well it's taken the Guardian a few years but finally they're getting it. Yes Polly - mass immigration is depriving native Britons of jobs, training, and subsequent life chances. This is not a good thing.
""The unexpectedly high influx of eastern Europeans""
Except of course that it wasn't unexpected at all. Not to anyone with any brains. But I won't push it, it's nice to see Poll talking some sense."
Those Brits who are getting their wages undercut by new workers are the ones who either failed to educate themselves or have been failed by the educational system. In the construction sector, all that's happened is that competition has come along, contractors are picking Poles because they work harder and bother to turn up on time, they're not being exploited, they are exploiting the demand in the UK. For too long, the service provided by many (but not all) Brits, be they plasterers, plumbers or bricklayers, has been shoddy, they'd turn up late and spend the rest of the day "getting a brew on".
"Dithers - 'Politicians of the right love immigration because they know that immigrants tend to vote for the right-wing status quo out of fear that they will be seen as 'different' etc.' Sorry, you've completely lost me there, matey - does your statement refer to the BNP or the likes of Norman Tebbit? They seem to hide their love of immigration pretty well.
Polly - your post reminds me of my 1960s history. Trade Unions marching in support of Enoch Powells 'Rivers of Blood' speech. I know you mean well but I think you're on dangerous ground here - things like this are subject to misinterpretation by some."
"Redsquare -�The Labour Govt destroyed the state education system in 1968 by getting rid of grammer schools and technical colleges in exchange for rubbish for all which has resulted in a significant diminutition of social mobility.�
It had nothing to do with the total destruction of the apprentice system in the 80�s I suppose?
- �The welfare support of the UK populace in more deprived or de-industrialised areas has resulted in a population that thank you very much doesn't need to do anything to survive living on the black economy and handouts. No worries mate! Hence no internal migration to where the work is other than in white vans�
Have you ever tried living on the dole? Not just for a few months but for years? Have you ever faced the choice between staying on the dole and just managing to feed the kids properly and taking a low paid job and seeing them go hungry? Faced with choices like these if some offered me a bit of cash in hand I�d take it! We used to hang mothers for stealing a loaf of bread now we harass them for being �benefit cheats� I suppose its an improvement! But as as has been pointed out it is actually increasingly difficult to 'cheat' or to refuse work.
Kimpatsu � I agree. And the present system of training does not equate to the old system, where you learned your trade from a craftsman. Such people are now near impossible to find � as anyone who has tried to refurbish their home can tell you.
Red square � �All this tripe about training:- If you can read, write, 'rithmetic with some communication and problem-solving skills based on scientific method you can do anything� I wouldn�t ask you to re- wire my house (unless you actually are a trained electrician)!!
I am having to have my house sorted out because the work was done by untrained people who thought just that. (it was called DIY) Part of today�s problem is that only middle class ACADEMIC skills are valued. The skills of a good tradesman are not valued, even though in many cases their earnings are high. Modern training is not up to much either � too much ticking of boxes and not enough real practising of skills. Things have changed since the 80's!
Until we can turn this around we actually do need to welcome skilled workers from abroad. We haven't really started to address the problem yet. Other posters have eloquantly described the system that produced skilled craftsmen in the past. Although this system was not as good as in other European countries it was far better than what we have now."
"Redsquare -�The Labour Govt destroyed the state education system in 1968 by getting rid of grammer schools and technical colleges in exchange for rubbish for all which has resulted in a significant diminutition of social mobility.�
It had nothing to do with the total destruction of the apprentice system in the 80�s I suppose?
- �The welfare support of the UK populace in more deprived or de-industrialised areas has resulted in a population that thank you very much doesn't need to do anything to survive living on the black economy and handouts. No worries mate! Hence no internal migration to where the work is other than in white vans�
Have you ever tried living on the dole? Not just for a few months but for years? Have you ever faced the choice between staying on the dole and just managing to feed the kids properly and taking a low paid job and seeing them go hungry? Faced with choices like these if some offered me a bit of cash in hand I�d take it! We used to hang mothers for stealing a loaf of bread now we harass them for being �benefit cheats� I suppose its an improvement! But as as has been pointed out it is actually increasingly difficult to 'cheat' or to refuse work. Things have changed since the 80's.
Kimpatsu � I agree. And the present system of training does not equate to the old system, where you learned your trade from a craftsman. Such people are now near impossible to find � as anyone who has tried to refurbish their home can tell you.
Red square � �All this tripe about training:- If you can read, write, 'rithmetic with some communication and problem-solving skills based on scientific method you can do anything� I wouldn�t ask you to re- wire my house (unless you actually are a trained electrician)!!
I am having to have my house sorted out because the work was done by untrained people who thought just that. (it was called DIY) Part of today�s problem is that only middle class ACADEMIC skills are valued. The skills of a good tradesman are not valued, even though in many cases their earnings are high. Modern training is not up to much either � too much ticking of boxes and not enough real practising of skills.
Until we can turn this around we actually do need to welcome skilled workers from abroad. We haven't really started to address the problem yet. Other posters have eloquantly described the system that produced skilled craftsmen in the past. Although this system was not as good as in other European countries it was far better than what we have now."
"Misterangry - the trade unions in cahoots with lazy management and a supine labour government destroyed british industry during the 60's-70's
thisandthat - haven't you heard about going on the sick - dear me
salamis - re:training - of course an apprenticed work force is ideal - If young adults left school at 14 to part-time work and study this could be achieved. The unions however would object due to the ""exploitation"" of youngsters just as the left destroyed the grammer/technical school structure - instead of investing more on the latter a la Germany as was originally intended by Rab Butler.
Blair's obsession with pointless university education is but the latest manifestation of the British people's long held disdain of commerce/industry/enterprise - probably a hangover from the industrial revolution. See also desire of white british youngsters to work for the bloated bureacracy of the BBC Argh !!!"
I've been crying out for an article like this for at least 3 years. Thank the lord that the Left have woken up and smelt the coffee. People who are anti-immigration aren't generally racists nor anti-immigrants. People fear immigration because it threatens their jobs. An improvement in UK GDP doesn't mean much if you're unemployed. There's lots of evidence that the gap between rich and poor is widening, so this implies that the increase in GDP, as Polly points out, is going in to the rich guys pockets not the average citizens. Furthermore, immigrants are being exploited. They are brought in on single employer visas which are renewable every couple of years. You need to stay for 3 years to start to apply to become a UK citizen. The employers often tell the immigrant worker at the end of year 2, that their visas been refused by the Home Office. They then have to find illegal work or go home. Whilst they're working they are usually made to do extremely long hours for a pitiful pay. The Inland Revenue knows from wages paid and staff numbers that certain employers don't pay the minimum wage, but take no action. The Home Office is complicit with the employers in this modern day slave trade.
"Immigration is very simply. Sombody has to want it for it to happen because without consent it goes against the law.
The EU allowed free movement of labour - with the intention of stopping future wars. The intention behind this immigration was good, but in the implementation has been slightly ropey.
The UK Government has recently started using immigration PURELY for commercial reasons. Recent immigration is about cheap labour. The opening of markets to East European labour was driving by a report claiming 'entrepeneurial' types would come to the UK (nannies to Italy and engineers to Germany). A minority of asymlum seekers are real asymlum seekers - and get tarnished with the brush of economic migrants. Immigration has also increased from India and China using work visas and many illegal workers who pay no tax at all.
At one end it is small companies (restaurants or farmers) directly employing workers or larger companies (Banks and Software houses) employing workers though other more organised companies. I work in financial institutions in the City and see large companies drive labor costs down by employing cheap labour from abroad who long outstay their visas. This is all about company profits and criminally avoiding tax. Gordon Brown turns a blind eye (no offence meant there) to the problem.
If the HM Customs and Excise is REALLY looking for easy tax they could trawl the FTSE companies to find tens of millions of tax that hasn't been paid by foreign workers being employed in the UK. Simply check the email messages of foriegn workers to find who has been here and for how long. Not one of the top 500 companies in the UK have been prosecuted for tax fraud - even though abuse is rife.
Companies should be forced to pay all the unpaid tax for the individuals concerned - this is a criminal activity they are undertaking not a tax avoidance exercise. The department that retrieves criminal assets could turn it's current loss making status into a healthy profit by targeting companies."
"Several points. First the facilities at the Athens Olympics were built by migrant Albanians, and Albanians arn't even in the EU. So it's not unusual that Poles are building the UK Olympic facilities. Migration is a fact of life of the current transition taking place in eastern europe. The idea that you can ban them out and therefore provide jobs to locals is false. They'll get in anyway, so better for the migration to be legal and tax-paying.
Second. You keep banging on about how only ""the rich"" benefit from migration and give examples of cleaners and nannies to emphasise how different these rich are from the rest of us. But you ignore that migration holds down inflation and interest rates and the 18 million of us who have mortgages (and don't employ cleaners and nannies) benefit. If you look at ""closed"" ecnomies like Australia and New Zealand, where there is no migration, interest rates are 6% and 7.25% respectively. Iceland, which is not part of the EU and doesn't experience the free movement of labour has interest rates of 12.5%. Our interest rates are 4.75%. Jacking them up to even 6% to pay for the loss of migration would be like experiencing a massive tax rise.
Thirdly, if people are struggling in London, they need to move out to the provinces, where everything is cheaper and work plentiful. Staying put and moaning is not the answer - London will always be a global city and therefor expensive.
Fourthly, the migration we are experiencing is TEMPORARY. As the eastern european states strengthen, the flow of labour will stop. Unemployment is already falling sharply in the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia). In 2004, it was over 10%, now it's 6% in these states. The Czech Republic, which borders wealthy Bavaria, is doing very well indeed - they've experienced inward investment, and their unemployment is falling fast too. That's why you don't get many Czechs here. Poland is an exception as they have a weird and incompetant govt resulting in 16% unemployment - but even they can't carry on like that forever. Sooner or later their citizens will notice how they are being left behind by their neighbours and demand better.
Look at history: in the 60's and 70's, when Spain and Portugal were under dictatorships, there was a flood of migration from those countries to France, Germany and Switzerland (as temporary workers in the latter two countries, and permanant migrants to France). That stopped as the EU worked it's magic and they became wealthy. There used to be a flood of migrants from Ireland to Britain, but that's stopped and reversed as they got rich, and Ireland is now itself a magnet for migrants from the rest of europe.
This is something that will sort itself out within five years. We just need patience. Meanwhile enjoy the current low-interest rate, low-inflation conditions and make the most of it and save some money. In five to ten years time, when this ends, we'll be missing this."
Yes ,you should improve vocational training. One should not look askance at blue labour. Not everyone is college material. And do keep the minimum wage . Over here ,when it goes up ,so do other wages and few jobs are lost. Sweden is backwards in this regard. Over here, with the growth of the federal government,the states have grown stronger also and liberty has expanded. Tories just don't get it!Over here we have our constitution of liberty and no road to serfdom as von Hayek and the Tories assert.One good thing led to another . Economic justice is not serfdom!
"Polly:
After the years of hard work it took for the accession countries to get into the EU, what you are suggesting is that we make some member states are more equal than others. The free movement of goods and services are at the very core of the EU.
Polish has recently overtaken Scots as the third most spoken language in Scotland, and Polish workers have helped our economy no end.
Public services aren't that stretched up here by migration, indeed Scotland wants and needs more inward migration. The spectre of services collapsing have been brought up time and again by the Tories - and every time they have been shown to be wrong.
It seems unfair and arbitrary to pick and choose which countries benefit from the freedoms enjoyed by the rest of us. Romania and Bulgaria are either Europeans or they are not. Turkey should have been already. Its a bit like the 'No Blacks, No Irish' signs on fifties boarding houses.
There may well be a problem in London - but that is easily fixed, and it is such a small part of the country as a whole. Outside the M25 we haven't the same pressures on services - people would be forgiven for thinking the world ends at Watford Gap, sometimes.
I take fully your point on the rich benefitting most and the poor losing out by this. But all it takes is jailing those few unscrupulous employers who sack workers to replace them with migrants paid illegally low wages, or those people who exploit domestics and nannies.
This is supposed to be a labour government. Pass the legislation to protect workers from this exploitation. Enforce EU employment rules. Unionise workplaces to ensure this type of criminality is picked up and action taken to prevent it. Take on business - force them to make a fairer contribution to the society they exploit. Jail employers who don't pay the minimum wage for the thieves they are. If there is an accident at work - make that business pay for the NHS for treatment their workers recieve.
It is not good enough to batten down the hatches and prevent fellow Europeans from coming here to work. If employers need workers, make them pay for the services to cope.
Blaming johnny foreigner for the rich getting richer is, well, a bit rich. Blame business, blame the rich, blame government - but don't blame the eastern european poor for wanting to earn a bit of decent money."
This issue exemplifies the corner that New Labour has painted itself into. In trying to make itself electable in the mid 90s, Blair has pretty much given Sir Digby Jones a place in the cabinet. Whereas the government seems to have no problem legislating on any other part of life, whenever it comes to business it seems to be as trusting as can be - relying on the CBI's arguments that the best thing is for business and industry to police itself. There is an obvious problem with this - that it doesn't bother. But the reality is the threat that business and industry will move abroad if the government doesn't keep business tax and regulation to a minimum. The problem that we now face is that our national productivity is almost completely dependent on businesses that could quite easily downsize or leave the country. Basically, every worker in Britain is the bitch of the CBI. How anyone can even think of believing business leaders saying that industry is mature and responsible enough to be trusted with the lives and livelihoods of its employees with no legislative standards is obscene, especially when it would be inconceivable for New Labour to extend that kind of trust to it's electorate. But that's the quandry. Government legislation will not happen because the CBI et al will not allow it. Any imposition of immigration quotas will be followed with a move of industry abroad. So what to do? If I knew I'd be in a better job.
"TimWorstall-
'To go along with abolishing the national minimum wage (Sweden does not have one), abolishing inheritance tax (Sweden does not have one), adopting a pure voucher system for the financing of education (Sweden has one) and abolishing the National health system and replacing it with one based on local taxation paying for local health care (the Swedish system is based upon the counties).'
I'm sure Polly would take you up on that if you combined it with other features of the Swedish model - stronger unions, higher rates of taxation for the wealthy, a more generous welfare system, more public spending, less income inequality and the fact that - compared withe UK - you are three times as likely to move out of the economic class you were born into."
"As mentioned above, free movement of labour is one of the core tenets of the EU. That is why the new countries had to go through so many economic tests before being accepted � to make sure their labour markets were compatible with the rest.
I absolutely agree that companies that don't pay the minimum wage should be prosecuted and any members of the organisation that knew about it should also be individually prosecuted. Exploitation is a bad thing and no amount of appealing to better interest rates etc will stop that being true.
The current governmental attitude that 'blue-collar' (all the builders, plumbers etc I know don't wear a blue collar, but whatever) jobs are second rate is largely the problem. Polytechnic colleges were a great part of our educational system and skilled craftsmen are at least as useful as classics graduates. Wanting everyone to succeed academically is just silly � any country only needs a small intellectual class. (Of course anyone should have the *opportunity* to be an academic, don't get me wrong there, but there ought to be vocational options too for the less clever but more skilled. And I don't mean 'less clever' in a derogatory way � manual skills are just as worthy as mental ones.)
The only problem with the article is the declaration that Turkey should be in the EU. Turkey is mostly not in Europe, it is not culturally European and trying to integrate it would result in the dissipation of the EU into a vague, faceless and powerless fog. (Yes, even worse than it is now.) Of course, that is probably Tony's ambition, but for a worthwhile EU it is a terrible idea. We should cultivate good relations (political and trade) with Turkey, sure, but we should recognise when there are differences and work with them, not try to mush together two completely different cultures. What's next, China in the EU?"
Altrui - how is the London problem easily fixed?
"I think Red Square and Kimpatsu have wrapped this one up almost single-handedly in their first two posts. The need for skilled manual workers, and health professionals from other countries, is down to policies and inaction on the part of successive British governments.
Another point that many seem to miss is that not only do the rich benefit from the migrants; poor people, or those on below-average incomes, also need plumbers, builders and electricians.
I am a staunch opponent of the New Labour / Blair inflammation vaccuum, but I just do not accept that the arrival of hundreds of thousands of central/east European migrants is a bad thing. For them, it is good, because they have jobs, money and prospects, which in many cases they wouldn't have at home. I believe that more people leave Britain than come to live here, so overcrowding is not an issue. And if builders/plumbers etc. are so unhappy that their wages are being undercut, then, as we live in an enterprise culture, they should find ways to make people pay more, add value to their services.
People may say that we owe the ex-Soviet bloc migrants nothing and that they are taking away our jobs. They are not taking out jobs away, first. Second, they are part of the EU, and our combined destiny means that it is good for us that people in the new EU member states are not starving or living in great hardship. British companies have benefitted greatly in economic terms from the central/East European region since the end of communism, so now maybe its a good thing that people from those countries have a chance to get something back.
I haven't even started on the grim situation in Poland where there are no plumbers left, and health professionals are clambering to leave. Maybe what's really needed is increased altruistic investment in Poland and other countries in the region, not just money, but know-how and technical support. Not just British property companies going in and bringing the prices in Warsaw and Krakow so high that locals can't afford to buy flats."
"I couldn't agree more with this article. Especially the emphasis on regulating employers and ensuring payment of the minimum wage.
On Turkey, it's essential to encourage a moderate, secular Muslim state, and the best way to do that is to bring Turkey into the EU."
"""Nobody forced these organisations to do this - it was something they simply did as a responsible part of UK society.""
Bull, they trained people because they were the only source of training. The apprentice system was the way for a company to build a pool of skilled labour within their own companies. Many companies provide training in all manner of skills, and do so for the same reasons - it builds their internal skills base, it helps motivate and retain skilled staff.
People who are motivated can get training in craft skills such as plumbing, many just choose nto to, expecting a company or the state to do it all for them. Many in Britain also want money NOW, not in five or more years time after they get their papers.
The reality is the British people are lazy and short-sighted, and expect the state to do everything for them. The welfare state is the source of these problems, not the cure, and more government intervention and regulation is definitely not the answer.
As to the problem of 'illegals' referred to by Polly - yes, there are illegals here, but most of the exploitation of cheap labour relates to legal workers form the poorer parts of the EU, eg thousands of Portuguese in Norfolk and Suffolk."
"""I'm sure Polly would take you up on that if you combined it with other features of the Swedish model""
I doubt it very much. I don�t think there is anything that could get Polly to agree to a voucher scheme for education: even the proof, as you say, that a country which has one has greater social mobility."
"Lysias
Steer new migrants away from London. Simple."
""" I don�t think there is anything that could get Polly to agree to a voucher scheme for education: even the proof, as you say, that a country which has one has greater social mobility.""
I reckon so Tim - I heard Polly on the radio just this morning, bemoaning the reduction in class mobility that has built up since the early 70s - you know, since labour started closing down grammar schools..."
"The issues raised here exemplify the difference between the fundamental principles of the EU and the practicalities as its citizens, new and old, either take advantage of or consider they are adversely affected by the concept of the European state. I don't think all of Polly's article is 'stable door / horse bolted' fodder - for example she does advocate cracking down on the abuses - but it's a bit of an exaggeration to suggest that the whole of the EU could be imperilled; it could be more a case of 'growing pains' as snowflake suggests. There needs to be clearer analysis not only of causes and effect of economic migration but also how permanent or impermanent it is likely to be, whether in time reverse migration occurs back to country of origin or elsewhere in the EU where the grass or opportunities may be perceived to be greener.
Oh and Ali, 'Watford Gap' is actually in the Midlands (Northamptonshire?); I presume you mean Scratchwood Services on the M1 close to Watford."
What! There's a downside to immigration? Who'd have thought it? Er, just about anyone with eyes and ears, but not strangely the Guardian until about 2 weeks ago.
The fact is that our education system has lost focus on the needs of employers, all in the pursuit of equality. The more intelligent kids who used to attend secondary moderns and entered apprentiships are now studying media studies and phsycology at down-market universities. Which product is of more value to the country? We have no choice but to import skilled labour as our kids have no desire to get their hands dirty, so Polly's assertion that they are being prevented from gaining skills is crap. Polly knows this, that is why she sent her kids to private schools.
"A few points b snowflake:
If EE immigrants had not been allowed in legally, some would have come anyway, but a lot fewer. If not, why do you think that i far, far more Poles have come to Britain and Ireland than to France and Germany?
Regarding London living costs. Why the hell should British people whose families have lived in London for generations be squeezed out by new immigrants? Just because it is happening doe s not mean that the ppeople living there have to just give up and accept it! They have i every right to fight back, and will do so by voting BNP if the pressure on them continues. And no London is not a ""world city""! It is OUR capital city, and there is no reason why we should give it up to the rest of the world!
Finally. There is no evidence that this process is 'temporary'. Of course the flood of Poles will slow down (if only because everyone who wants to come will have come soon LOL!) However, there is no reason to believe they will go back, once theyre settled here, any more than other immigrant groups have done. For all its smallness, overcrowdedness and open country, the UK is still one of the best countries in the world to live in, and immigrants realise this too, even if you dont!"
"Polly Toynbee : ""But the rich prosper: restaurants, cleaners and all other services are cheaper because wages are low.""
The assumption she makes is that the economic activity resulting from skilled immigrants would have happened anyway without them. This does not look sustainable, the cost of training unskilled locals would make some businesses uneconomic. It would also take time which would make the venture too risky, too expensive or both.
Polly Toynbee also assumes that local unskilled people can be trained and made employable. Since they have managed to get to the age of 16 or above without acquiring any skills along the way this seems unlikely. To do this requires a determined attitude over many years so the odds of them sticking to a training course seems low to non-existent.
Businesses pay taxes, rates and of course there is VAT even on food & wine in middle-class restuarants. This money goes into local and central government where it can be frittered away on fripperies of which one might imagine that even the Graudian approves like schools & hospitals. And that sure start program that Toynbee keeps mentioning with approval. Not only that but prosperous tidy areas have less minor crime which also indirectly benefits the locals even if they don't work in the trendy bars.
Not only do we benefit from skilled immigrants helping to get our economy growing but in the long term so do the countries they left. As the other countries economies grow then new markets and customers open up for us. This is what the EU is all about, its what the Marshall Plan was all about, a virtuous circle of peaceful growth, prosperity and interdependence. So if the French, whether Left or Right, don't want Polish Plumbers then that is their loss and we should laugh at them all the way to the bank.
It is no suprise that the Left hate immigrants because they threaten their historic powerbase of low-skilled unionised employees. They fear an increase in higher education as the dreaded professionals are hostile to their Marxist mumbo-jumbo. The Right hate immigrants for good old racist/xenophobic reasons.
The alternative approach is demonstrated in the Middle East where Israel damages itself by shutting out Arabs who could be earning a living there. Equally, many Arabs violent antagonism to all things Israeli denies them the chance for prosperity. Both sides turn to religion instead of mammon and try to justify killing small children in the name of the Sky Pixie."
"RedSquare - ""the UK's young people are wasting their time in pointless education or wandering around the world instead of working.""
A well-honed wanderlust is distinctly noble. Work is the summit of ignobility. Please do not posit pointless degrees in with something as beautiful as seeing the world."
"TimWorstall - 'even the proof, as you say, that a country which has one has greater social mobility.''
The voucher system was introduced about 15 years ago, so I don't think Sweden's greater social mobility can be explained by that.
Finland has a very good comprehensive school system, and it also has far greater social mobility than the UK. If they introduced grammar schools and secondary moderns, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. The important thing is if your parents' wealth determines whether you go to a good school or not. This is the case in the UK even with comprehensive schools. Introducing a voucher system would not change that."
Altrui - that is indeed a very simple plan, all the simpler for not having any substance to it. It seems fairly obvious that immigrants congregate in London because there is a significantly large shared language community there on which they can draw for information and help. The jungle telegraph of casual labour jobs and cheap rooms for rent can't be reproduced by local council fiat. Unless you want internal passports there's nothing to stop immigrants gravitating towards London.
The problem is not immigration. The problem is that immigrants are exploited. If they are working in Britain then they should be paid British wages. Then native workers would not find their own wages depressed, either. This happens because the concept of worker solidarity has been poisoned.
"I thought that was the whole point.
It is also damaging to democracy, since the attitude of the wealthy and the powerful is not to worry about what people think as you can always ship in more people to do the work.
A good example of this is Saudi Arabia."
"redsquare ""All this tripe about training:- If you can read, write, 'rithmetic with some communication and problem-solving skills based on scientific method you can do anything."" If you look at job adverts you see plenty of jobs where the employer is looking for a graduate, in my opinion often quite unnecessarily. So I would say that the 'tripe about training' is coming more from employers than from the government.
And then they still moan about graduates not having basic skills, so why don't they look for people who have the basic skills, and maybe a bit more common sense and experience as well. Yes, I am available."
"sedan2 has just posted pretty much exactly what I was going to say. Refusing extremely poor people in other countries the chances of coming to somewhere they can have a better life is the wrong thing to do. The right thing to do is to protect all low-paid workers, regardless of where they come from.
Oh, and regarding the comment from Kimpatsu that ""Blair insists that 50% of 18-to-25YOs go to university"" - he doesn't. The 50% target is for tertiary education in general... that includes training people to be plumbers and the like."
"Once Again Polly Toynbee nails it, and proves that she is by some distance the best left-wing journalist around. So many others - not least her colleague Gary Younge - have engaged in sinister, squeamish double-think on the issue of immigration, so desparate to prove their inclusive and anti-racist credentials that they ignore the obvious fact that unskilled immigrant workers from poor countries will drive down waged for the native working class.
These immigrants are very impressive, sometimes heroic people, willing to endure exile to make a better life for themselves and their families. If, let's say, I could earn the equivalent of �25/hour cleaning offices in Poland (the rough equivalent on a purchasing-power parity comparison), I would be sorely tempted. I would live in the cheapest area of Krakow and save as much money as possible, rather than reinjecting it into the Polish economy. That's common sense. But it does not mean my labour would be wholly beneficial to the host country, especially not to Polish cleaners.
British journalists are not under threat from immigration, as to be a journalist one needs excellent, mother-tongue English, a respected UK degree, unpaid work-experience and lashings of nepotism. It is their bourgeois luxury to encourage limitless immigration, just so they can feel more cosmopolitan and right-on. If thousands of young American Ivy-League journalism graduates came to the UK to work for a pittance, you can bet the realities of being undercut by newcomers, regardless of race, would hit home to the smug commentariat. Bravo Ms Toynbee!"
I think you'll find that spiralling debt, cost of living, etc is making everyone's life a fucking misery...
"Belvoir:
No I meant Watford Gap, but I'm glad you picked me up on that because just north of Watfoed Gap is the splendid town of Corby, looking to double in size over the next few years. I take it that you are from round that way yourself (from your name I would guess Leicester).
If services are stretched in London, then I urge Londoners ground down by the weight of their mortgage to sell up and head to Corby, cheap houses, hugely improving amenities, excellent transport (new train line on the way) just an hour and a bit' drive from London, good schools, great people, surrounded by beautiful countryside, the Rockingham forest and amazing history. It is a town built on inward migration, and is now crying out for more.
Now the good people of Corby could say they are threatened by this huge influx of Cockneys going there taking their jobs, and their doctor's appointments, and school places: but not a bit of it, because they know that in the long run they will hugely benefit from the influx - economically, socially, and culturally.
So ends the parable of the post-industrial new-town."
The author has failed to understand the political affects of immigrants exploitation. They can't vote. That creates even more vulnerability for the immigrant. A worker should have the right to vote in any country he or she works in. In fact a worker should experience no difference at all irrespective of what country they are in. Native workers will benefit by having new allies, instead of competition. It will greatly reduce racism of all kinds. Nationalism has always been a burden for the working classes of all countries that the ruling classes have never failed to abuse, while themselves never failing betray their own country. Note how Bush and Blair have allowed Saudi and Australian billionaire capitalists to rape their respective countries.
"MadDogOBlair at least concedes ""these immigrants are very impressive, sometimes heroic people"", but then goes on commit the schoolboy error of reversing the situation -
""If, let's say, I could earn the equivalent of �25/hour cleaning offices in Poland (the rough equivalent on a purchasing-power parity comparison), I would be sorely tempted. I would live in the cheapest area of Krakow and save as much money as possible, rather than reinjecting it into the Polish economy. That's common sense.""
Naturally, because of the way things are, the situation will never apply the other way around. So it makes no sense to imagine it. In any case, Poles and other people from the former soviet EU second wave accession states DO spend money in the UK, and it depends on who you want to listen to as to whether they are contributing yto the economy or acting to its detriment. This is simply a question of your individual point of view and which interpretation you support.
I read some pretty hot-headed vitriol written by Jeff Randall in the Telegraph, who thinks that the whole social fabric of the UK is being undermined, blah blah blah and so on. My suspicion is that the recent salvo from John Reid on immigration is an attempt to reach out to people who feel threatened by the presence of so many immigrants on a cultural as well as economic level, although I PERSONALLY reject the idea that the migrants are bad for the British economy. It is, again, Reid pandering to the Sun-reader rather than getting to the heart of the non-existent problem which he and many others perceive to be there.
At least now that there are 400,000 freshly arrived Poles in Britain there will be some decent bread to eat on most high streets..."
"Slick the light of the urban night That draws the young As moths to flame To the dazzle of the street A flux sustained by the sacrifice Of the lifeblood of the meek
Rent edifice distended and goal, of equity As tribute to the famous Replaces tribute to the free A sickness corporeal Manifest As spirit�s entropy
Prospect, scripted by the stars For advantage to secure The bondage of the willing To indenture�s iron jaws Their mortgage and commitment For promise unsecured
Shared heritage corrupted By increased burden For the poor A yawning differential That corrupts Respect for law
Behold a house divided Distressed by burden long By burden unremitting In the service of the strong"
"kopernik: ""If you have a Minimum Wage you will obviously import labour to undercut it as in the USA""
Only ""obviously"" if you are a grasping, exploitative employer with the morals of a well-poisoner. Or a Thatcherite.
I listened to a radio programme recently highlighting the parallels between the unregulated building work done by Irish migrants 50 years ago, and the same done now by workers from eastern Europe. Low wages (now illegally low), no unions, no health and safety, no security, no employment rights: this is exactly what the Thatcherites wanted, isn't it? Some seem to be displaying remarkable chutzpah in now complaining about it. Or did they just envisage that it would be British workers who would have the privilige of these working conditions?"
"moviejunkie
""I think you'll find that spiralling debt, cost of living, etc is making everyone's life a fucking misery...""
Hmm, maybe it's time for Brits to join in the game too. Considering the above, maybe we could move in force into Poland and get ready for Bulgaria and Roumania. I believe a lot of Brits are already buying houses in Bulgaria, so it can't be that bad there. And Poland needs a lot of entrepreneurs, preferably EU ones, so get your head round a bit of Polish, e.g., try to find the meaning and pronounciation of chrzaszcz for starters, and take it from there. Be positive, these countries are not light-years different from us, and they're coming our way. Let us go theirs. Do not whinge or be lazy, just do it!"
What 'Social Justice Goals' have New Labour ever had? From the moment that Bliar and Co scrapped Clause 4 it was obvious that they were neocon Tories and had only their own interests at heart. They exploit workers wherever they come from. We need a new left of centre party that can address the glaring inequalities in wealth, education, health care, etc that have grown up under Bliar's government. Tony Benn said recently that the Welfare State had taken the power out of the wallet and put it in the ballot. Bliar has put it back in the wallets of himself and his cronies.
"Another point: you can't have the free movement of capital without balancing it with the free movement of labour.
British and Irish capital has been eager to invest in eastern european properties. see the following:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a6FDxTuyhiAs&refer=news
Real estate prices have risen as much as 100 percent in the eight former communist states that joined the EU in 2004, driven by buyers from Western Europe. Many locals, with less than a quarter the buying power of their neighbors, have been locked out of the market, adding to frustration with EU membership and eroding support for budget cuts needed to adopt the euro.
This is only fair if we allow easterners to come here to earn and raise the money for a deposit on their home back in eastern europe. It would be completely lop-sided if we were allowed to buy their property and price them out of their own markets, and at the same time prevent them from the chance to earn some good money themselves over here.
The fact is there are plenty of jobs in Britain - otherwise the easterners wouldn't come, esp as they are not eligible for benefits. Brits are simply choosy about which job they will take. Instead of taking the first one offered, they sit pat, waiting for the better paying ones. Which is their right of course, but they shouldn't then moan if someone else more eager takes the jobs they rejected.
And how many Brits go and live in Spain and Portugal and Greece? We're experiencing what the Spanish have been experiencing for the last decade. People will adapt. We all learn how much alike we all are. The Poles and others get to see what a western democracy looks and feels like first hand. These young Poles will be the future leaders of their country, and the ties to Britain will serve us well.
And who knows what the future holds? Just as no one predicted 20 years ago that hordes of Brits would descend on the Costas, it's quite likely that in 20 years time, Brits might be flocking east to work."
"I love the fact that people have the word 'red' in their user name. Lovely stuff. Keep it up comrades!!
Personally, I have no idea about this issue. I guess it will all work itself out in the end. In any case I think its a big 'well done' to the Poles. I wouldn't like to pack up and move to the other side of europe to work on a building site. I think these are just the sort of people we want."
"i think some of you are being confused on what exactly is an immigrant. a lot of the people who you consider ""immigrants"" are in fact british citizens coming from elsewhere in the commonwealth or have some other reason to have a right to abode. (while the article mainly mentions poles, the tenor of the comment list is definitely tilted toward non-white immigrants, who are, funnily enough, more likely to be british citizens than white people moving to the country because of the unequal application of immigration laws.)
that said, i think that it's not the fault of the immigrant him or herself that they are often willing to do work that the native born is unwilling or unable to do.
part of it is the fault of the people running the show, and another part is in fact the fault of the parents who don't even try to look for the few apprentice programmes that still exist out there."
"Why should Britons take precedence over industrious Poles simply because of an accident of birth? Trying to solve our own self-created social problems by screwing the Eastern Europeans over doesn't seem to me a very admirable move, even if we accept for the moment that it would work; it's just as disreputable as America trying to prop up dying textile industries at the direct expense of poor Pakistani cotton producers.
It's yet another instance of the rich trying to hold on to their relatively cushy position at the expense of the poor, and as bloody usual it's accompanied by grotesque noises of piety and the pretence we're actually doing it for their benefit � heavens, these poor Poles are being exploited en masse! We must save them from the evils of earning more than they can at home! They joined the EU with the understanding they would be able to work throughout it, just like citizens of existing member states. Abusive employers must indeed be dealt with, but this doesn't mean a wider retreat on immigration as a whole. How do you lot suggest we go about explaining to the accession states that actually we've reconsidered and now want to take back the gains they spent years working to secure?
Also, Polly � please do not use the word 'upskilling' again unless it's your intention to cause your readers pain."
No more Guvmint inspectors. Please.
Immigration is a capitalist plot for slave labour and the Elite are showing contempt for people like me. The Elite think it does not matter if the slaves are post Christians, Christians or Muslims, but they have sold the nation down the river (*due to the love of money and slave wages they pay me here) - Islamism will destroy us all because of the capitalists, because of the Elite, because of their greed for profits. WHO IS GOING TO SAVE US FROM THIS MADNESS?
The contribution from immigration to making the rich richer and the poor poorer is totally insignificant in comparison to the raising of interest rates by the Bank of England by a quarter percentage point, extortion in the housing sector, the student funding system, and the raising of capital by the government to pay for war in the Middle East, through various clever ploys, under the disguise of "green policy". Very rarely are problems actually solved through higher taxation in the relevant sector, as this government would have us believe. But these policies generate lots and lots of revenue for our contribution to America's war on the Middle East. And that's where most revenue from increases in car-tax, and the generally spiralling costs of living to the average UK citizen, eventually goes. Articles like this, misidentify the cause of the increasing poverty gap, and play straight into the hands of the evil BNP.
"Very good guess, Ali (sorry to seem / be over-personal but that's an outcome of BB for you). I'll second your sentiments about country living much though they would pain the good Dr Johnson!
It's also a micro-example of something that adds neatly to Gombrowicz's comments on MadDogOBlair's posting: that we're not talking about unskilled migrant labour either, but skilled labour that is supplanting trades / activities that have resulted from structural and other deficiencies in the UK system, the other main issue identified by many commenters. Yet another strand, which snowflake's second post also addresses, is that of reciprocity: by and large, economic migration will largely be inward whereas outward migration of Britons to elsewhere is most likely not borne of necessity but of choice: to retire early, to invest in overseas property, to escape RatRace UK, a preference for particular countries or cultures or whatever. While such drivers are usually reasonable / justifiable, it is worth remembering to also consider where and how they are likely to result in adverse effects because of the various socio-econo-political disparities that exist between EU states."
"Britain's policy of letting Eastern Europeans in was the right one and is true to the ideals of the EU. The people whose wages are being depressed are people who should have done a better job at school. They had the chance to improve their skills in a rich country and they didn't. In anycase part of the reason why wages have not risen much over th epast few years is because of workers in China and India.
Polly, I am disapointed that you have chosen to use the same old argument that has been used for centuries - blame the imigrant"
"People come to Britain for better job prospects. If they are prepared to work hard and contribute to the economy, why not? Polly Toynbee's suggestion that Newham's unskilled workers would take up the challenge of working on Olympic building projects is belied by the fact that they have the opportunity now and are not taking it. So long as the immigrants are not being given social security or related incentives and have to support themselves, I don't see the problem. The problem is the attitude of the natives, compounded by a system that can be exploited to reward them for doing nothing.
The unskilled correctly see these immigrants as a threat to their status and earnings. Why am I so uncaring? I live in the ward of Islington council closest to the City of London. The City is, and has been for some time, the richest area of Europe with average earnings (average, mark you) of roughly �70,000 a year. Quite apart from the market for skilled workers, the market for unskilled and low skilled workers is immense, as cleaners, shop workers of all types, security guards etc etc etc etc. If you can make yourself understood in English, you should be able to get a job, and you probably can get a job even if you cannot make yourself understood in English. At the last census, 40% of households in my ward had no one in registered employment. In my ward, you do not even need to get public transport to get to a job in the City: I walk to work every day. Meanwhile, I am served coffee in the morning by Georgians, Poles, Latvians, Colombians - every nationality but English. In my part of Britain at least, there is plenty more scope for immigrants to shake up the complacency of the local layabouts."
"""Poor families in [London] can't pay for childcare, and compete for jobs with single migrants willing to take less than a living wage.""
Move.
""The minimum wage is some �2 an hour below a survivable living wage.""
Get a roommate.
""But if agency workers had the right to equal pay and conditions after four weeks' work it would stop their exploitation and stop other workers being undercut.""
It would also lead to more unemployemnt. See Continental Europe.
""Jack Dromey, TGWU organiser of some of the most exploited, finds food factories such as chicken farms where within the last five years as many as half the staff have been substituted with migrant agency workers paid less, without sick pay or pensions. It forces better employers to copy the worst to stay competitive, without fair laws strictly enforced to keep a level playing field""
""Copy the worst?"" You mean giving jobs to people who don't have them?
""Supermarkets or others at the end of long production chains should be fined for buying supplies from companies that exploit.""
This is retarded. These firms aren't law-enforcement agencies!
""The French non in the constitution referendum was partly a public revolt over the ""Polish plumber"" fear.""
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/26/international/europe/26poland.html?ex=1277438400&en=d29948da0c3ad1c2&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss"
Polly t rightly points out "the dilemma - more GDP v social justice for the low paid." Growth in GDP alone is meaningless as a pointer to the wealth and wellbeing of a country. This is demonstrated 9as in the UK) when the growth is siphoned off/corralled away by a tiny elite, and/or multinationals. Unalloyed and unchecked growth is actually (to use someone's telling phrase) the ideology of CANCER. As said earlier we 9i.e. the 'ordinary' populace) are the bitches of the CBI and the vested interests of those who cream off the benefits of growth. Whatever is good for the CBI (which isn't even representative of that many businesses) is not of itself good for the nation. We need greater foresight and advance planning (back to apprenticeships etc and workforce planning), rather than just going hell for leather for growth, since it is this headlong dash that corrodes society,leads to resentment and fosters racism ("bloody immigrants come over here and undercut our wages" etc).
"""Most EU countries have a proper work inspectorate, but not here"".
Some EU countries would do better to worry about people being in work first."
"Economic migration from our close neighbours in Europe is not the issue - they respect our customs, learn english and do not continually bitch and moan that they aren't being treated even handedly whilst demanding preferential treatment over the indigenous population - Dzin Dobry to all the fantastic Poles out there.
Any new migrants to this country should not be entitled to supported welfare until they have earnt the provision through contribution, and under no circumstance have pensions credited to them as if they had contributed to the UK coffers, as is currently the case."
"""With a better system of inspection, an amnesty for illegals already here for years would contribute an estimated extra �1bn in taxes."" ------------------
It would also result in an increase in illegal immigration, just like it did in the US when amnesty was given to Mexicans and as it's doing now after Spain granted amnesty to illegals.
It just creates problems.
BTW, the average construction worker in the US is making less money than they did 20 years ago (inflation adjusted?) because of immigration. It really does hurt the working class pople."
Interesting article, agreed with the overall point about better conditions for migrant workers but not so happy with other conclusions. (certainly not in agreement over Turkey) Otherone - couldn't agree more re the EC. Euro widening (as opposed to deepening)was always a thatcherite dream, all that cheap labour making unions weak etc and a losening of power from the existing more liberal members. Red square: disagree with all your reasoning. The lack of skilled blue collar labour is not due to Labour getting off Grammar Schools (trust me a grammar school pupil would have considered in well beneath them to get a trade, that was for the secondary modern boys)Most apprenticeships stopped in the 80s - the destruction of big engineering firms and Nationalised industries were a large factor- 'jobs for life worked both ways' and employers were prepared to invest in taking a lad on (for low wages) and teaching them a trade on the way and the lads knew that eventually they would get a respectable (and secure) wage if they stayed learning the job and put some effort in at the technical colleges supplying the theoretical side. Do you have any idea how low the 'dole' is. Apprenticeships are like gold and college courses for trades are oversubscibed and very few provide courses for plumbers due to the nature of the work and the restriction withing the colleges so the lack of tradesman isn't for the want of trying. A small business would rather take a trained man (the flexible labour force) than have the effort and expense of training someone. Are you really suggesting lowering the school leaving age and not to even try to teach maths etc to pupils who don't show early promise? Most of the Poles in my smallish town (10% of the population now)are working for agencies doing non skilled manual labour anyway, and that is what frightens some of the local population, they are all competing at the bottom of the pile
"snowflake : ""Meanwhile enjoy the current low-interest rate, low-inflation conditions and make the most of it and save some money.""
If we had done the sensible thing and joined the Euro we mortgage payers would be enjoying an even lower interest rate. Inflation in the Eurozone is approximately the same as that in the UK so it would have been a free lunch."
I am surprised to see an anti-immigrant rant on the Guardian Website. Especially given the racist undertones (use of the term "Eastern Europeans" to stereotype the inhabitants of half of Europe, no reference to the hundreds of thousands of "Western Europeans" living in the UK). Fortunately some voices of informed reason prevail. As Snowflake has pointed out, EU expansion is a two-way deal. On one side Poles, Lithuanians etc. get to live and work in Britain and Ireland. On the other sides, British companies and individuals get to take advantage of market and investment opportunities in the new Member States. Many commenters forget that, in many ways, the new EU members are getting a raw deal - German and French companies get full access to their markets and yet they are not allowed to work in France and Germany. Of course plenty of young workers from the new Member States do work in Germany, but have to do so illegally (and are thus truly open to exploitation, unlike those who work in the UK).
"Personally, I work near a Yoot Centre, and I see a stream of underactive teenagers shuffling in and out during the holidays. I know that there are a lot of young people working harder than ever, but there's as many (ie, boys) who aren't. The ones who aren't seem to imagine either a 19th century future where they will just drift any manual job, or are fatalistic and expect to live on a benefit/black-market existence. I hope the influx of competeing talent from the European Union provides a wake-up call to them: you have to grab what opportunities there are, or someone else will!
So, scrap drama and media studies off the curriculum, start teaching enterprise, encourage language skills and engineering!
Props to the posters who mentioned that migration is an option to UK citizens- the London seems a world away from the Post-Industrial North. But don't move to Corby- all the new houses are built down a quarry!"
"The migration issue is first and foremost a question of numbers. How much more agreeable to duck the central issue that the UK has surrendered control of its borders, and pretend that in some way a beefed up wages inspectorate can dissolve concerns about immigration.
More on my blog at http://thepurplescorpion.blogspot.com/"
"creovative wrote:
""Poor families in [London] can't pay for childcare, and compete for jobs with single migrants willing to take less than a living wage.
Move.
The minimum wage is some �2 an hour below a survivable living wage.
Get a roommate.""
Do you always adopt that barking tone when instructing the 'lower orders' on what's good for them?
I'd like to see a surge of immigration that started to undercut the salaries of some of the well-paid professionals posting their inane comments here. We'd soon begin hearing talk of the need for a 'sensible immigration policy'."
Nice poem Creel
"Polly wouldn't give a hoot as long as the benefits were spread evenly, would she ? The entire English population could emigrate and be replaced, as long as income differentials weren't too large. No worries. I guess that's how you define a rootless cosmopolitan.
Round my way the massive EU immigration has had two immediate results
a) the farmers dropped all their 'native' workers, sold off or rented out their houses, and replaced them by Poles living in caravans. They're nice people, but that's not the point. The whole English countryside is becoming one giant suburb and there are fewer and fewer 'ordinary' country people.
b) there aren't any summer jobs for my kids.
What the giant Polish influx will do for social cohesion remains to be seen. As I've writtten, the fact that these new Brits are polite and hard-working, do not do crack or firearms, nor are they likely to blow up Tube trains, is a function of the culture they have arrived with. It tells us nothing about what their first and second generation descendents will be like after twenty years exposure to the cultural vacuum of the UK.
http://ukcommentators.blogspot.com/2006/05/from-pole-to-pole.html"
A really helpful article. The 'reserve army of the unemployed' looks even more frightening in its modern international form than in its original 19th incarnation. Workers from countries with a significantly lower averable level of material existence can be used to drive down conditions for workers in the UK. Clearly we need immigrant workers and their remissions can benefit their countries of origin. The whole process, however, cries out for intelligent and effective regulation.
"""Migrants make up only 8.7% of the UK's population but pay 10.2% of its income tax.""
And yet your whole article is about how they are living on the minimum wage and undercutting British workers. How does that maths work?
You really are a fuck-wit of the highest order."
"`Patriotic` employers often show their true colours when presented with cheap foreign labour versus relatively less cheap native labour.
Their fellow Brits suddenly become `useless greedy agitators` and the foreign influx are `noble salt of the earth grafters`.
Proud to be British, indeed."
Heck, creovative you even make redsquare sound well, red. Andy Iddon, that's a gushing recommendation of Poles (presumably at the expense of more ethnic migrants)wheras the poles are viewed by some who work with them in large numbers as 'close' and rascist and their idolatrous catholisism is very alien - you pays your money and you takes your choice. Johnhunyadi: 'great benefit for poles/lithuanians etc and companies and British investors' - well thst's ok then, the British working class should presumably have made more effort at school. It's all very strange, as a generalisation (and not taking into account class differences), people on the right opposed immigration when it was black or asian, while people on the left didn't object but. now some people on the left (especially working class) are very edgy about the European immigration but people on the right aren't as bothered. Is it inverted rascism? I am genuinely in a quandry about this issue and have been for some time. Will have to give it more thought
I live in Mexico. The minimum wage is 48 pesos a day, that works out to about two pounds fifty - a day. Given that products in the supermarket cost more or less the same as they would in the US (a loaf of bread, a litre of milk and a small box of corn flakes would consume your pay for an eight hour day on min wage) I assumed that no-one actually earnt min wage, that it was a concept useless for 'protecting' wages and merely used as a method of calculating fines. Since then I have met people who make min wage. At the same time Mexico's second source of income, above foreign investment and international tourism and behind oil, is money sent back from the States to Mexican families by legal and illegal family members. I feel sure that even illegals do not get paid less than $5/hour, often for picking fruit. A skilled worker, legal or not, will command between $13 and $28 an hour. In the US $5 an hour is seen as a low wage, especially for hard physical work, yet at the same time it is nine times more than the min in Mexico and is obviously enough to persuade people to leave their homes and families and to cross the border illegaly, sometimes at great expense. It seems to work out for everybody, especially given that no legal person in the US, of Mexican descent or otherwise, wants to pick fruit. I wouldn't call it exploitation and it obviously works out well for the US economy. However, if you wanted to curb this immigration I believe that the only way to do it would be to raise the ridiculously low min wage in Mexico thereby giving people a reason to stay. The subject of the min wage never comes up though, I've never heard it talked about, ever. Mexicans like to talk about the terrible pay their compatriots earn in the US but never mention the two pounds fifty a day Mexican min wage that drives those compatriots over the border. When I've asked I've been told that employers just can't afford any more, something I do not believe given the prices of ordinary products and the great amount of wealth that does exist here. Personally I think it's a case of the haves just wanting to keep more of what they have. Of course the 'Polish plumber' syndrome is more problematic because of direct competition with local workers, though I wonder whether the wages and conditions in Poland are really the best the government and economy can manage, I suspect not.
"smitch18 August 11, 2006 04:03 PM
""However, if you wanted to curb this immigration I believe that the only way to do it would be to raise the ridiculously low min wage in Mexico thereby giving people a reason to stay.""
Mexico's too poor to afford that, it would lead to more unemployment."
"John Hunyadi: It's not widely known, but from 1 May 2006, Spain, Portugal, Finland and Greece opened their labour markets to the eastern europeans without restriction. France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg and Italy eased restrictions for certain categories like kitchen staff, hotel workers and so on. Only Austria and Germany now have full restrictions still in place. Germany of course is still trying to integrate their own easterners from East Germany.
In many ways Poland is unlucky to border the former east germany - the countries that border the wealthier western nations or are just across the sea from them (eg Latvia and Lithiania across from Scandinavia), are doing much better. The Czech Republic looks particularly promising - their incomes are quite high, at Portuguese levels. Once they open their borders, I imagine lots of Poles will choose to go there. People foget that the Eastern Europeans have only been in the EU for 2 years. A lot has been achieved in that time. This migration is a temporary situation. In five years time we'll be wondering what the fuss was all about."
"Gombrowicz is, I feel, unfair in his/her critique of my first posting. Describing the counter-factual situation, where it is Britons who wish to emigrate to rich Poland for jobs, is not a schoolboy error. It serves simply to remind that there is nothing sinister or bizarre - as some xenophobes seem to feel - about wanting to earn and save in the rich country.
Actually, British economic migration does happen, from Auf Wiedersehn [?] Pet labourers to university dons chasing US ivy league dollars.
By pointing this out I hoped to help dissipate some of the emotion (mostly bile, both from racists and the pro-immigrationists label anyone else a racist) surrounding the concept of economic migration.
OK, so many migrants are skilled, but my economic logic is sound regardless of the trade or profession in which they compete, whence my point about journalism's complacency.
The only schoolboy error is declaring that if something isn't the case, it's not worth thinking about. That's plain thick."
"Gombrowicz is, I feel, unfair in his/her critique of my first posting. Describing the counter-factual situation, where it is Britons who wish to emigrate to rich Poland for jobs, is not a schoolboy error. It serves simply to remind that there is nothing sinister or bizarre - as some xenophobes seem to feel - about wanting to earn and save in the rich country.
Actually, British economic migration does happen, from Auf Wiedersehn [?] Pet labourers to university dons chasing US ivy league dollars.
By pointing this out I hoped to help dissipate some of the emotion (mostly bile, both from racists and the pro-immigrationists who label everyone else racist) surrounding the concept of economic migration.
OK, so many migrants are skilled, but my economic logic is sound regardless of the trade or profession in which they compete, whence my point about journalism's complacency.
The only schoolboy error is declaring that if something isn't the case, it's not worth thinking about. That's plain thick."
"Stujam, you write: ""Most of the Poles in my smallish town (10% of the population now)are working for agencies doing non skilled manual labour anyway, and that is what frightens some of the local population, they are all competing at the bottom of the pile""
Well, Poland is exporting doctors, dentists, midwives, IT professionals, bankers and many other skilled professions to. I have recently become a dad for the second time and I was taken aback by the fact that out of the 7 or so midwives we saw, only 2 were English.. one was Polish of course. This migration away from Poland is clearly creating problems in in the home country, and now even teachers are coming to the UK from Poland. It is clear that the structural problems in the UK are responsible for this - the government has to pay people like this more and pay their fat selves less. But that is never going to happen.
I conclude that it's an organic process. Even if you make immigration illegal, people will come here anyway, especially Poles, who have an established network among their community in various cities in Britain. And what is happening in Poland is that UKRAINIANS, RUSSIANS and BELARUSSIANS are coming to Poland to do the building and jobs like that, because they can get paid more. Pretty soon, they'll probably take doctors and teachers from those countries too. This is just how transitions to market economy happens. It's not pleasant all the time, it makes people uncomfortable, they have to change their attitudes, they have to accomodate. But it's a natural, organic process.
Smitch 8 (18?) in Mexico, you're right to suspect that Poles could pay their employees more. There is still a very strong culture of bribes and money 'disappearing' from public companies and so on. But interestingly, some people are leaving Poland now as a choice, not an economic one, but as a way to avoid having to watch the terrible Kaczynski twins reverse all the good work done by the government which preceded them, making themselves (and by implication, the emigrants feel, their nation) look foolish.
Chill out you Brits, Poles and other nationalities from the region will bring mostly just good stuff to the UK!!!"
"Snowflake, I think you probably should check your facts before you start posting crap like this again:
If you look at ""closed"" ecnomies like Australia and New Zealand, where there is no migration, interest rates are 6% and 7.25% respectively.
What tosh. Australia. New Zealand. No migration? Are you serious?"
"Snowflake, I think you probably should check your facts before you start posting crap like this again:
If you look at ""closed"" ecnomies like Australia and New Zealand, where there is no migration, interest rates are 6% and 7.25% respectively.
What tosh. Australia. New Zealand. No migration? Are you serious?"
"Re: professional training.
Germany runs a comprehensive professional training programme which has led to virtually every profession being formalised with a three yerar ""education"" (including professions such as Call Centre Caller, and Assistent Cleaner). Result? A society where one has to decide at aroun 16/18 what one wants to do for the rest of his life (before he/she has an idea of what the world is like or about) and which leads to utter inflexibility when the said profession is rendered obsolete by techonological advances.
Germany has 4.5million unemployed people. Getting a job in the east is like winning the lottery. Even getting a job as a shelf stacker requires the ""correct qualification"" which woul dbe a three year training period.
Add to that an absurdly generous welfare state (and don't even start Germans, it is absurdly generous), it truly makes no sense to do a low paid job (those which immigrants have to do) when the benefits are higher.
You could introduce a minimum wage I suppose, one which is sufficently interesting to force Germans to do those jobs thatimmigrants do, but also that would lead to a situation like in France where the propserous white population manipulate society to protect their own jobs and welfare state jelously againt the dark skinned arabs in the projects (check out the two riot seasons last year in France).
I hate when ""immigration"" is placed in this context. I am an immigrant (born in London, live in Berlin) and I feel personally threatened by such sentiments which so often come from the left! It sounds like a request to close off a socio-economic model against a certain ""other"", and protect those inside the circle regardless of the value or performace he brings to the job. An example for me would be to force English teams to play at least 8 footballers FROM England. Sure a number of English players would get a chance in the floodligts and live on TV but essentially they are not there on merit and will not be able to replicate that which was banned from xenophobia."
So reading between the lines, Polly T. is saying that we should have some controls on immigrants coming in to this country? Or is that just to work? (If they don't work how are they going to support themselves?) I'd say it's not just the Tories who're torn over this one..
"Historic weakness in vocational training? Quite the opposite. Britain always had an excellent system of vocational training (the guilds) which was washed down the drain by Blairites and others before him who decided that 50% of the population should go to university.
And as for the economic benefits: a recent study by the Professor of Economics at Cambridge has given the lie to the economic benefits of immigration: in fact, the benefits are nil on average and immigration can even be detrimental owing to other costs."
"I'm amazed at the complacency and indeed arrogance of some of the unreconstructed 19th C left and many of the (neo?)liberals on here who seem to be cheerleaders for untramelled immigration They seem to think this 'long boom' will go on forever and that there wil be no recessions. But there will be recession and many of the new migrants will simply not be required by capital anymore., What then, what on earth will they do? will they follow the money and move again, but many will have developed roots here. Unfortunately, then tensions may well arise arise as the indigeous workforce compete for much fewer opportunities, more strain on social service and the shrinking (due to nu-labour)welfare state etc as unemployment bites.
I also think their condescending attitude to what is basically the white working class stinks, and their naivety atonishing that people will just accept anything that is thrown at them. There also seems to be a nasty subtext that the 'white working class'(underclass?) has failed us, not worthy, and that we need a new one. a bit like Brechts saying 'By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier In that case for the government To dissolve the people And elect another' Even more unpleasant is the notion, incredible for left wingers, that migrants are more deserving , they work harder and don't just sit at home, then again maybe the ingrained work ethics of the 19th C left and indeed most of the UK would explain the latter comment. There does seem to be some overcompensation by the unreconstructed left towards migrants, i wonder why?
I sometimes fear for the future, i can't believe i am saying this as a leftist,(i'm no supporter of Enoch!) but i do think we may see balkans style tensions growing: migration is essential and we shouldn't blame those who wish to work here but unless the left/progressives etc come up with a workable and realistic solution then trouble lies ahead,"
"fyrg - Migration into Australia and New Zealand is very tightly controlled. They have strict quotas and when they are filled, tough, the business concerned just has to put up ages to poach staff from other businesses. It's not like in Britain, where all the employer has to do is prove they advertised locally and failed to get any takers.
Their attitude to asylum is weird and cruel too. They want to incacerate them on islands. In 2001, just before 9/11, a group of Afghans tried to seek asylum the Oz. The govt spread false rumours about them dumping their babies into the sea. Completely untrue, but the racists in Oz were eager to believe as it helped rationalise the cruelty to the Afghans. Howard was rewarded with a return to office."
"The author has failed to understand the political affects of immigrants exploitation. They can't vote. That creates even more vulnerability for the immigrant.
So what? If they don't like it they can fuck off."
"snowflake - ""It's not like in Britain, where all the employer has to do is prove they advertised locally and failed to get any takers.""
If only this were true. For Tier 1 workers, employers don't have to prove that they advertised locally. Big business can also ""intra-company"" transfer employees in to the country for up to a year. In theory, the employee must have been employed in their home country for more than 2 years, but this isn't checked.
I know people who are in this country with highly skilled visas who haven't ever been managers or earned the salary which is the criteria required to obtain these visas.
There are adverts in many magazines in London from legal firms guaranteeing an applicant a visa in the UK. Immigration is essentially a business. The government keeps increasing the cost of a visa and renewal periods so that immigrants have to pay more for coming in. Immigrants are then dependent on the conditions imposed in the visa and the employer who generally gives them it. As the renewal of an employee-related visa requires an application by the employer, the worker who wants to eventually become a UK citizen has to do anything to please their boss. This is the modern day slave trade.
Additionally, the recently failed WTO talks, offered to allow an IT professional or any employee destined for management to work in the UK for 2 years. Of course, anybody could fit the 2nd category. It's a lucky thing that India, China & Brazil didn't agree to open their agriculture markets to competition or the deal would have gone through."
Have you got a cleaner Polly? How much do you pay him - I mean her?
"""I hate when ""immigration"" is placed in this context. I am an immigrant (born in London, live in Berlin) and I feel personally threatened by such sentiments which so often come from the left!""
There is nothing more irritating than Brits who go abroad and start criticising the way a country is run. Germany's benefits system is indeed very generous. It is not for Thatcherites to tell them to destroy their society as she did to ours. Please don't give me the guff about our economy being stronger: have you ever been to the former West Germany? I dare you to say that that is a less successful society than the UK. You know, just a thought, but perhaps the reason the German economy is in a slightly dodgy state, and it is far from a terrible state, is because the richest country in Europe had to integrate the poorest? Imagine if Britain tried to integrate Poland in 1989. Kudos to the Germans for managing it as well as they did."
"Johnhunyadi For this site the racism has been surprisingly reserved the egoist either tried a reasoned argument for a change or couldn't be bothered to put one together. Sinik's response is the sort of drivel you invariably have to wade through befoe you get to the sensible stuff.
It's been amusing to see the smug rightwing welcome that Polly received for this article. How's the coffe Polly does it taste as good as it smells?
The running theme whether it's global warming, nuclear power, or immigration is social justice for the people of this country that rightly includes guest workers. But lets not romanticise the Poles and denigrate the so called benifit cheats. Given the same conditions and incentives UK citizens would do the same.
snowflake your a gem."
"Tonybee should get a job with noooooooooo Labour as she talks just as much rubbish and spin.
Her open door policy to migrant workers will if anything it will turn our already poor working class poorer (thats white and black before you jump on me). All we will and up with is every crook and Albanian pimp flocking to the UK, as Eastern Europeans delight in the fact they have all left home to settle abroad. Who is going to pay for this ""proper inspectorate"" ahh yes the tax payer. Or maybe we can get some ""out sourced"" foreign company to run it like the ones that run our water and electricity. And where are the schools going to spring from to educate their children, and whos going to pay for the healthcare. Where are they going to live, ah yes Prescott can stick them on that patch where he was going to build all those Machouses. Sometimes a flood plane (if you want house insurance) and sometimes dessert(if you ask Thamesnowater).
The only people going to win here are, Sainbury's that fine food emporium already staffed by poorly paid illegal workers and the other culprits that offer dire wages for 10&12 hours hard graft, somthing she has no idea of.
I could go on but whats the point must can already see the many flaws in this stupid womans liberal coffee morning views.
For years we have had to read and listen to absolute garbage pour from her mouth and hand why does your paper give this person the time of day I can't understand.
Please go live in Euroland where your social enginering belongs"
truth be told, journalists aren't at the end of the labour market where they have to complete for jobs at all, never mind offer themselves to the lowest bidder. Nor do they (or most Guardian readers) have to compete for public housing. If anything, cheaper cleaners, nannies etc is a godsend. And they can carry on feeling superior to the lower orders in their magnanimity.
"Polly Toynbee is entirely right. The cost of labour is affected by supply and demand - increasing the supply by opening the economy up to such high levels of immigration must tend to depress labour costs. The same applies to job conditions generally. It is good that some on the left are not so fanatically attached to mass immigration that they embrace free-market fundamentalism as and when it provides an argument for open borders.
Now, if Ms Toynbee could admit that it might be a good thing if British Pakistanis cheered for the England cricket team, as opposed to some even accusing Mahmood of being a traitor for playing for England,... Sorry, that would be too much to hope for, but articles like these are a step in the right direction. Doubts over immigration are not the first step to NSPAD membership."
"Snowflake You are a moron, do not compare OZ to NZ. NZ has a very open view to Asylum seekers. We do nt have camps here and in fact for our population take more than we probably should. Immigartion is controlled on a point system and is modified every year, the population of NZ is 4 million and we have immigration of roughly 50000 people per year from all walks of life from Eastern Europe to Pakistan to Somalia.
If you think UNCONTROLLED immigration is good thing your are sadly deluded. Immigration has actually contibuted to the raise of interst rates in NZ as to few houses to accomadate the newly arrived has contributed to an huge rise in house prices in the last 4 years. This has now had to be calmed by the fairly blunt instrument of higher interst rates. If we had even more immigration the situation would be even worse. In regards to Australia the camps are not a good thing but I have some sympathy for the Government as boatloads of people turning up seeking asylum always as persecuted people does cause problems. Are Modern countries no longer allowed to protect their borders? Australia has a very open and diverse community with its own problems and does have some racism (like anywhere) but perhaps they are keen to protect their ""way of life"" unlike the UK. You cannot be everything to everyone Snowflake I suggest you now what you are talking about before posting."
"Again, Snowflake, Hats off to you for your own ignorance. Australia's ""tightly controlled"" migration programme had 110,000 new arrivals in 2004. That's in a population of 20,000,000. By comparison, the UK absorbed 144,000 settlers in to a population more than two and half times Australia's.
You only need look at the population growth in the two countries over the past 20 years to see your ""closed economy"" theory is ridiculous.
I am no supporter of Howard's public stance on immigration - even though the numbers show that the rhetoric and the truth about migration are a long way apart.
As I said though, I think maybe you should check your facts before spouting off."
Polly Toynbee has managed, in one of her best articles ever,to articulate what many people were beginning to realise, following publication of such books as Willing Slaves and the evidence of personal experience. Other newapapers have concentrated either on the threat by 'foreigners' to our jobs or services, or the advantages of cheap labour to our economy. The issue is not immigrants, who are only doing what's best for themselves and their families, but UK government policy. It is of such crucial importance to our future, that some means must be found of informing and mobilising the population at large before the coup is pulled off.
"MadDog,
It was perhaps unkind of me to accuse you of a ""Schoolboy error""; all I intented to say that imagining the immigration situation in reverse is pure speculation - like superimposing today's values and ideas to the middle ages - pointless. The situation is how it is, and would never be reversed. British people go to work in countries like Poland, as I did for three years, but never to do low paid manual jobs or trades. Usually as people working for international companies with offices in Poland, or as teachers of English, as in my case. This is essential to understanding the situation today. Britain is a country which many (but by no means all) Poles look up to as a well-run, upstanding democracy where things work properly and people are not corrupt. I spend a lot of my time trying to convince them that this is not true, but the perception that things are better here is strong. Very few English people would have that perception of Poland.
I reject out of hand all the scaremongering stuff written by dreamer06 and others about the numbers of immigrants from new EU member states. I really do not feel a great amount of sympathy for ""indigenous"" plumbers who instead of charging �30 per hour now have charge �20. OK, immigration may be used as a tool by the right to break unions and guarantee cheap labour. And of course, Polly and her fellow British journalists have to defend BRITISH people, above all. But what are the alternatives for the Poles, Slovaks, Latvians and others who have no jobs, prospects, savings, homes? It would be great if rich western countries, instead of messing up the Middle East, could spend our money on development in the new EU member states, to make it unnecessary for people to emigrate. But it won't happen because Britain is a selfish nation, like most nations. George Soros has probably done more for those countries than Britain over the years. And he had to sneak British peoples money away to do it!
So in the circumstances, even though it might make things harder for the so-called ""working class"" in Britain, it is better to allow unrestricted immigration from these EU states in the absence of a real effort by richer countries to create the structures and skills base which people in former Warsaw Pact states need.
I can't wait for the day when I read about the good effects of this immigration that ISN't based on its impact on our economy. But I think I'll probably have to write it myself."
"snowflake you certainly write better than Fritz1 you think more creatively your arguments are non hectoring also rational and easy to understand.
So Fritz1 resort to personal abuse was motivated by his frustration to counter your points. If his/her points were good enough the abuse would not have been neccesary.
We need contributions like yours to drive up the standards of these threads"
"Nobody seems to be linking immigration to the house-prices crisis (unless you've already got one) in the last 5 years.
London house prices have always been governed by what the bedsit market is prepared to pay, rather than what the young family can afford. This is spreading across Britain now.
If my wages have been cut by 10% by competition from immigrants this is as nothing compared to the cost of a house increasing by 100%.
Secondly, the term 'skills shortage' can not be accepted uncricitically. I am not one of the poor mentioned in Polly's article, but I recently spent two years out of work due to a 'skills shortage' in my field, computing. Large numbers of us were out of work, but 50,000 work permits were signed in our sector. Some of us lost our homes. There is rarely a skills shortage at the right price, but the large corporations had convinced the government that our price was too high. You can only adjust this with unemployment. At the lower end of the scale, when the government says 'there are large number of unfilled vacancies in the food-processing industry in Scotland', this means that there are lots of employers who want to pay less than they should be. The supply/demand curve is lesson 1 in economics, but commentators don't seem to understand it.
I've always voted on the left and am fully committed to our duty to asylum seekers. However I am opposed to further expansion of the EU under the current terms."
Excellent article, Raphael, although at first I thought the headline referred to Uli and not Dieter. An honest mistake... I remember the '82 cup final (wasn't that the one where Hintermaier blasted one into the top corner from about 30m out?) For once, Dieter's thick-headedness proved an asset.
Oh yes... of course ze evil brother of ze archevilist Hoeness did ruin Hertha, the wonderful and glorious juwel of prussian football pride, which used to dominate the last 30 years of german fussball history, those were the days. I always thought Hertha, when finishing in top 6, was punching way above their weight and that Berlin traditionally simply cannot sustain a classy team despite their megalomaniac tendencies... me silly fool, i was wrong, only Hoeness is holding them back.
I'd just like to congratulate the GU subs bench for working out the correct typography for 'Hoeneß'
"Very informative humourous article. How do you establish your formula? Read a lot of Richard Williams and then construct as near to its polar as possible?!!!
Decent title race this year with more than 2 contenders- unlike most of Europe!
Who will win it?"
"I'm with Hirndobler on that one. Could anyone remind me what Hertha have won in the last 30 years (please amend the number accordingly, can't remember since I'm too young)? A club solely deluded by the fact that they happen to be in the capital. Maybe the sponsors (was it not Ufa giving them millions?) should have gone for Union instead. Bearing in mind Hoeness' performance as sporting director in Stuttgart, though, the overall assessment of his qualities at this level is probably not far off the mark.
And I'm afraid Schalski are going to win it. Despite the fact that I'm not that keen on fish, I'd rather have Werder, but unfortunately it's not down to me."
Anyone coming on here and praising Honigstein for this article doesn't know enough about German footall. I saw my first Hertha game in 1972 and have been a regular ever since. They have never been really good in all those years. Hertha finished runners-up once or twice without really challenging for the title. They got to two cup finals in 79 and 80 maybe? They lost both. Hertha have NEVER won the German cup and were German champions for the last time in 1931! That's an even longer stretch without a trophy than my beloved Newcastle United. There were even a few years of 3rd division football for Hertha! I've been sat in the Olympiastadion with 2500 other supporters in the second division. Maybe Herr Honigstein is too young to remember those days. And now it's all Hoeness' fault? Give me a break. after the Bundesliga scandal (early 70's) Hertha had an absolutely rotten image and went from having regular crowds of over 50000 to 15000 a week. This stuck with the club until Hoeness came and changed Hertha from being a provincial club run by a pub owner, to a respected upper mid-table Bundesliga club. At times I feel he isn't ambitious enough for Hertha, the choice of Götz as trainer in the first place underlines this. The youngsters Honigstein mentions are all products of Hertha's youth academy widely accepted as one of the two best ones in Germany. Other good youngsters are also getting a game and doing a decent job. Of course it needs time and a trainer who can form a team, and this is where Hoeness has failed. Since Röber Hertha haven't had a good trainer, Meyer is only ever a short-term solution. If Hoeness ever sorts the trainer problem out, Hertha stand a real chance of winning something soon with their good crop of youngsters. Sorry I've gone on a bit but it's jumping on the bandwagon lazy journalism by Herr Honigstein.
"Hi everybody, Thanks, as ever, for your feedback. Please keep it coming.
hirndobler and brownalebelly: We all know that Hertha haven't won anything for aeons, I don't pretend otherwise. I also never argued that D.Hoeneß is reducing a Bundesliga giant to a minnow. The point is: he's been in charge, in various guises, for over ten years now. During his reign, Bremen were champions twice, Lautern won the league, Schalke won the UEFA Cup, Leverkusen went to the Champions League final. The Cup was won by Schalke, Bremen and Stuttgart. (We won't mention Bayern and Dortmund here, for obvious reasons) With the possible exception of Schalke, all of these teams had smaller stadiums, smaller financial resources and much less political support than Hertha in 1996. But Hertha threw it all away, with nothing to show for it. (One year in the Champions League and the fourth round of the UEFA Cup in 2003, to be precise. And, oh yes, two League Cups). Now who's to blame for that?
All the best, Raphael"
"""hirndobler and brownalebelly: We all know that Hertha haven't won anything for aeons, I don't pretend otherwise. I also never argued that D.Hoene� is reducing a Bundesliga giant to a minnow. ""
Then rephrase the headline and rewrite your whole agenda, which basically suggests a hapless imbecile is just about to ruin a ""big club"".
""The point is: he's been in charge, in various guises, for over ten years now. During his reign, Bremen were champions twice, Lautern won the league, Schalke won the UEFA Cup, Leverkusen went to the Champions League final. The Cup was won by Schalke, Bremen and Stuttgart. (We won't mention Bayern and Dortmund here, for obvious reasons) With the possible exception of Schalke, all of these teams had smaller stadiums, smaller financial resources and much less political support than Hertha in 1996.""
Same with Hamburg (constantly outperformed by Hertha in the Bundesliga). Same with Cologne. Same with Frankfurt.... need i go on ? Sorry, try that again, Rapha.
"" But Hertha threw it all away, with nothing to show for it. (One year in the Champions League and the fourth round of the UEFA Cup in 2003, to be precise. And, oh yes, two League Cups). Now who's to blame for that?""
Hoeness of course ....and Bayern."
"hirndobler, I don't write the headlines and I don't have any agenda, honestly.
In any case, I don't understand where you get this ""D.Hoeness is ruining a big club""-idea from. Again, my point is actually that he failed to make Hertha a big club, despite financial means that the teams you mention could only have dreamt of ten years ago. The city of Berlin is subsiding them heavily, in all sorts of ways. Last year alone, they lost 16 Mio Euros, a new record. They have total debts of 55 Mio Euros.
And do you like their team?
I hope you didn't take the Keyser Soze bit seriously. Of course it's nothing do with Bayern at all."
This is probably the funniest thing I read or will ever read.
Come to think of it I've always wondered why Hertha Berlin always "underacheived" with a supposedly good squad.
"""In any case, I don't understand where you get this ""D.Hoeness is ruining a big club""-idea from. Again, my point is actually that he failed to make Hertha a big club, despite financial means that the teams you mention could only have dreamt of ten years ago.""
As already mentioned (you chose to ignore this bit) , there are a number of potential big clubs which also did not make it AND have not ""enjoyed"" a stay in the depths of the Regionalliga (or its equivalent) AND rake in significant revenue AND are getting all sorts of political support AND still underperform compared to Hertha.
"" The city of Berlin is subsiding them heavily, in all sorts of ways. Last year alone, they lost 16 Mio Euros, a new record. They have total debts of 55 Mio Euros.""
They demanded a reduction of their Olympiastadion rent, fair enough... why should they pay a premium for a bowl they never demanded and cannot fill ? Every club is subsided one way or another, eg Bremen or Stuttgart don't pay adequate fees for their stadiums which usually generate losses.
Hertha has huge problems of establishing themselves as the club of the city, Hoeness did try to change it but somehow i'm afraid this lack of enthusiasm is deeply ingrained in the mentality of the Berliner. So he has formed a club which, despite its troubled past and local problems, usually ends up in the Top-6 ... bad show.
""And do you like their team?""
Goetz is absolutely inept, although he played a important part in the demise of 1860 (hehe...). Hertha had better teams in the past, somehow they have lost the plot and didn't follow on... however they have a great academy, so here's hoping"
"This season started pretty well for Hertha. Pantelic was in fantastic form and the kids in midfield certainly looked up to the job in most of the games I saw. After the winter break it all went badly wrong and both Götz and Hoeneß should take the blame. Götz for not changing things around and finding a way to restore decent service for Pantelic and Hoeneß for appointing Götz in the first place and for the general atmosphere of stagnation that surrounds the club. He's overseen so many transfers of seemingly gifted but ultimately lazy players with big reputations who simply don't perform consistently to maintain any sort of challenge. Marcelinho, Alex Alves, Gilberto, Simunic and to some degree Bastürk all spring to mind. Add to that his inept dealings with the press and interference in the dressing room and there's plenty of grounds for criticism.
Given how open the Bundesliga is (even if Bayern win it most seasons), that Hertha have never managed to finish as at least runners-up in the last ten years can only be regarded as failure. Hoeneß has to take the blame for that. They are still playing and behaving like they are grateful that they aren't in the second division playing in front of pathetically empty stadium. I've been there when there were only 3000 of so in the Olympic Stadium and it was awful. A half-full ground is a considerable improvement, but all the same, the major team in a city of over 3 million inhabitants should generate a bit more enthusiasm. The fickle nature of the Berlin fans means that this will depend on success, however it is also the duty of the general manager to generate support. Hoeneß fails to do this. He exudes negativity. He also always looks so wretchedly miserable in just about every picture that it makes you wonder why he doesn't pack the job in.
Maybe Hoeneß felt he got his fingers burned when he appointed Huub Stevens and hasn't felt like appointing a high-profile manager since then. I'm not expecting an inspiring appointment at the end of this season. I'll keep going because it's cheap and just round the corner from my house, but it would be nice to go games where the result on the pitch actually has some significance for the top end of the table every game and not just when the likes of Bayern or Werder are visiting.
The Hoeneß brothers are quite similar to that other famous pair of sporting German brothers - the Schumachers. In this unfortunate equation, Bayern got Michael, Hertha got Ralf."
"Don't be surprised if Jens Lehmann does stay at Arsenal (see related article: ""Lehmann deal close, says Wenger"") for another year ... but what's that got to do with this article? Well nothing actually, unless you heard rumours about three months ago, suggesting that Lehmann was on his way to Hertha and that Hertha keeper Fiedler was being sent to grass in Nuremberg.
Hertha's defeat at the hands of Nuremberg three weeks ago, left them with no real prospect of playing in Europe next year and any hopes that Lehmann would want to move to the 'Hauptstadt' died the same day.
Nuremberg are about to confirm the signature of Czech No.2, Jaromir Blazek, something they were about to do many months ago ... until of course the above-mentioned rumours began circulating. His experience will certainly help Nuremberg in Europe and will probably reinforce Honigstein's image of the Club being a ""bunch of non-dodgy Eastern Europeans"". With all three slovaks sidelined through injury, perhaps he should have also added ""injury-prone"" to the list!"
"Very funny discussion indeed.
I accept Raphael's point about Hoeness' inability to use the resources he had. As a matter of fact, there seems (to be polite) no progress at all over the years. So where should the buck stop then? And others not using their potential either is a bit of a lame comparison. Bremen have been punching above their weight for ages now, so it can be done.
Funny coincidence, though, to have two articles about Hoeness' shortcomings on the same day, one here and one in the FAZ. Or isn't it?"
"Hirndobler,
Ok, let's have a series of articles about the big clubs (Fortuna Dusseldorf, maybe?) in the lower leagues who have their resources wasted by former one-dimensional players whose claim to fame is running around a pitch in a blood-soaked bandage and who have famous brothers. Geez, there must be dozens but if I want to drill that deeply, I'll read kicker instead.
I think the angle of the story - at least part of it - is that DHoeness is a well-known personality running a big team. (Incompetent, yes. Pretty to look at, no.)Human interest, in other words, and pretty amusing at that. Everyone already knows that Hertha stays in the Bundesliga in spite of itself.
At least, give the writer credit for avoiding the usual storylines and providing some tongue-in-cheek commentary."
Hi Raphael, What! still no BVB?!? The saddest act in the Bundesliga and you can't manage a comment? Fair point about Höness (does he have a sausage factory as well?). I just hope that Berlin are still as bad on saturday so that BVB have a chance. My big worry though Raphael. Will you do a 2te Bundesliga column next year so that I can continue me cries for more recognition for Dortmund? I am not looking forward to Monday night drives to the Signal-Iduna Park so come on Dortmund lets start scrapping for those points.
Just one more thing Klose and Diego being back in form is a euphimism for being world champion divers?
"Fine article once again. Could you apply for a job at the kicker-magazine, please? I slept in last week, when I read some boring article in it last week.
""Dieter Hoeneß was the worst player to appear in a World Cup final.""
I only know the highlights of the `82 WC final, so maybe I am not the right person to argue about Hoeness being the worst player to appear in a WC final. I would say, however, that Carsten Ramelow is the worst player ever to appear in a final. What's your word on that, Raphael?"
Surely Stéphane Guivarc'h was the worst player to appear in a World Cup final?
"Kleberson would win it for me, except I don't think he actually appeared in 2002. His club just said he did to boost the price, probably along with another 300 Brazilians at the time. I've never checked the footage, but if he IS in there, I'll claim it's the non-football playing twin that came to United.
G'ui - where does that apostrophe go again? Gui'varch G'uivarch is a top shout too."
"Yeah, well, Hertha is ""subsiding"", alas, in spite of being subsidized.
I think Simunic had been an excellent defender for them until this year. I notice he had some hair added to his high forehead, could that mean the stress on his scalp causes the brain to send garbled messages to the body?
Fathi is definitey backsliding and Pantelic just hasn't produced since they finalized his purchase. I don't believe the Boateng brothers will ever become key players because they are too inconsistent (nor seem to have a winner's mentality). The one I like is Patrick Ebert in right midfield who hustles (even though he was taken off against Bochum) and is always good for a ""Beckhamist"" cross ever so often."
Ah'a!
"Hoeness certainly deserves some credit for establishing the club in the upper third of Bundesliga. Roeber's excellent work as well as the massive funding provided by UFA did help, but Dieter carried his weight and probably a little extra.
Today we have to look at the overall impact of his work at Berlin though, and all of the sudden the result isn't that crispy anymore. Hertha stockpiled about 50 Million Euros in debts. That number doesn't sound particularly impressive, not even by the comparatively harsh standards of the German league.
Other than the table rankings of past years the club has little to show for it though. They don't own a stadium, only a few semi-expensive players. The talents Hertha's excellent academy produces leave for absurdly little or no transfer fee at all. ( Your accountant next door probably can explain better why this is much worse than 100 Mio debts while owning a stadium and squad full of big names ).
During the past two years, Hertha twice barely escaped insolvency ( Spring 2005 salaries couldn't be paid, God knows where they got the money from to continue. 2006 the city Berlin had to massively subsidise the club, concerning various issues regarding the Olympiastadium ).
Hertha and particularly Dieter himself are also laughed at by half of football Germany, the other half simply ignore the club.
Overall, that's not a good balance to me, not even a decent one. Your mileage may vary though.
Someone earlier commented on his lacking ambition being the reason for the current stagnation. I don't think it is. Hoeness is just unable to differentiate good employees from bad ones. Even those not remotely infringing on his territory or authority. Squad composition has been attrocious for years, even considering the limited financial means. Goetz' tactical shortcomings have been appearant since late 2005/early 2006. The current medical department produces plenty false diagnosises and extented, often even doubled, injury times.
In short: Dieter Hoeness just doesn't have what it takes to continuously develop a club. He probably isn't the worst manager in Germany, but certainly not a good one by any standards. As long as mediocre former players by that merit alone are employed as coaches and managers though, Germany's leagues will continue their decline."
"""Goetz' tactical shortcomings have been appearant since late 2005/early 2006.""
Breaking news: Felix Magath will be the next Hertha coach! That seems to be the right step to overcome tactical shortcomings...Actually, Magath has proven in the past that he can prevent mediocre teams from relegation by means of pumping iron. I like his famous quote: ""Tactics? That's an excuse for bad players."" Well done, Hoeness brothers. But I would have liked to see Magath try his luck abroad. After all, Puerto Rico was keen on signing him as their national coach a few months ago. But Hertha isn't a bad choice either."
"I love kohlrabi! Luckily I grow it every year. We make a slaw with grated carrots, small bits of red pepper, bits of parsley, oil and rice vinegar and some roasted (no salt) pumpkin seeds on top at the end.
Good in veggie soups as well, but best raw."
I was given some kohlrabi seeds so am growing it for the first time this year and looking forward to harvesting my first crop. Your slaw sounds delicious.
Does it cause as much flatulence as cabbage?
No! Hurrah! It's even suitable for those of us who've been put on a FODMAP diet.
These are great just peeled and sliced add some salt ,great for dips such as houmous ,very refreshing find them in greek /turkish grocers aswell.
My current favourite use for Kohrabi: Peel and cut across, rather than top to bottom, so you get nice round slices. Peel an orange and also cut into slices across the segments. Lay a circle of orange each on a circle of kohlrabi. Dryroast some sesame and sprinkle over. Serve slightly chilled. Delish.
Kohlrabi is my favourite vegetable. It's divine.
I can quite happily peel a kohlrabi and munch on it... until it's devoured. Very easy to grow veg too.
That's how I like it best as well!
"Just had a raw kohlrabi salad from Jersalem cookbook. Oh god was it vile and smell urrrrrh.
Will try it cooked and stuffed."
Perhaps you just don't like it, or there was something wrong with your kohlrabi. I made the same salad a while ago and thought it was lovely. I also tend to be fairly fussy with veg.
Sometimes old or overripe kohlrabi is not nice. When it turns all spongy and woody and just dry, the flavour isn't very sweet anymore, either.
"What a pointless agency the GLA appear to be. Are they really that surprised when people traffikers (lets cut the pretence as this is what these people really are) fail to act appropriately?
The fact that there is a government agency charged with ""regulating"" some of the sleaziest individuals in the UK should be regarded with bemusement. These are people who take advantage of their countrymen for profit, sell them into modern day surfdom and reap good cash profits off the back of it all .. and we are supposed to act in sheer amazement that ... shock ... they don't treat their workers very well.
Maybe next we could have more equally useless agencies regulating the activities of Ukranian prostitute traffikers, or Jamician drug dealers."
I would like to see the management and wage structure of the 'Gangmaster' .... can you believe this is an official terminology! ... Quango.
"The statement that ""Though the authority has been able to impose a £5,000 fine and six months' imprisonment on anyone found using labour supplied by a company without one of its licences."" is incorrect. The GLA can only prosecute, and it is up to the court to decide.
When Hsiao-Hung Pai asked last December whether anything had really changed, it was hardly surprising that she found that little had. The GLA only obtained powers to prosecute unlicensed labour providers two months earlier, and labour users using such unlicensed LPs the previous week!
Just look at what we have achieved so far (Bomfords, Baltic, Focus Staff, Elite and Deepmist to name just some interesting stories) ask the Low Pay Unit whether we're having an effect, and most importantly of all, let us know of abuses so that we can respond.
Paul Whitehouse"
'His choice of language when suggesting that Labour has let in too many immigrants and their dependants since 1997 was careful enough to avoid charges of crude racism' hmmmm. To not want large numbers of foreigners in your country to live = racism. What strange times we live in... you might just about get away with Xenophobia, but racism? If you don't want ANY people from ANY country, are you across-the-board racist? Even if that includes eskimos and Americans? I can't join you Guardian-reading people in the place you've disappeared up.
i liked his earnest/worried look, helped make up for some of the rubbish he was talking.
Sorry Mike but just about everyone I know thinks "Dave" is a slippery sod who will say anything he reckons people want to hear. Personally I forsee a total disaster for the Tories at the next election, followed by Mr. C exiting stage left to spend more time with his wind turbine. When the Conservatives start acting like Conservatives again, as opposed to a posh version of the Greens, then Conservative voters will start to vote for them again. I don't belive that I am alone in this view. Cameron is the Conservatives Michael Foot, pleasant but totally hopeless.
"Not the Guardian as well!
To no one's surprise (least of all mine, although I have had emails from BBC staff...), not one of the issues that I listed on my blog was mentioned much, if at all, during Newsnight's fawning ""interview"" with the BBC's preferred candidate for Prime Minister. Indeed, almost nothing was. It was like being back in the early days of Tony Blair.
That this 50-minute Party Political Broadcast was ever made is perfectly scandalous. But the Beeb's man has been shown over this summer to be, as if anyone hadn't already known him to be, a vacuous, lightweight figure, and one, moreover, without a conservative bone in his body. So Auntie dutifully came to what she clearly thought was the rescue of her new favourite nephew.
Of course, because she only knows Eurofederalists, she doubtless thought that she was doing him a favour by allowing him to demonstrate (not that it is in any way news) just how rabid a Eurofederalist he is.
But there was no mention of Cameron's membership of a criminal conspiracy, complete with membership lists, officers, a uniform, the lot, specifically for the purpose of smashing up pubs, not to mention of assaulting publicans and their staff.
Nor of the Tories' plan to hand over control over great swathes of life in designated ghettoes to wholly self-appointed local Muslim, Hindu and Sikh leaders in return for getting out the vote for the Bullingdon Boys.
Nor of the fact that the oppression of the black and white English-speaking working class that this will entail is already being experienced in Wales, and is being seriously mooted both in Northern Ireland and in the North of Scotland.
Nor of whether or not Cameron, with his Scots background and his house on the Isle of Jura, would use the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to enact legislation in all policy areas applicable in all parts of this Kingdom.
Nor of just how few members the Conservative Party (like the others) now has, and just how old most of them now are (again, like the others).
Nor of how many people are now determined not to vote.
Nor of the fact that the specific Tories who have done well in Local Elections are as un-Cameroon as anyone could possibly be, these being manifestly the sort of Tories for whom people will vote if they are ever going to vote Tory at all. (Are you printing articles like this just because so many councils are now run by Tories that you are afraid of losing advertising revenue? If so, then you are barking up the wrong tree by backing Cameron.)
Among many, many, many other things...
davidaslindsay_AT_hotmail.com, http://davidaslindsay.blogspot.com"
"Yes, he was pretty much in command.
Given the fact that no-one who interviewed him bothered to ask him what he would do differently, it wasn't exactly a difficult interview. It's easy to blather on about how awful things are. Much more difficult to decide what should be done.
I thought the Newsnight Team were pathetic."
"Well, all I would say is as there is only a choice of three you would have to awful not to measure up to the competition.
Ming Campbell hardly strikes me as someone who is in command of anything, his reflex quote if ""we voted against the war"" and since that moment the lib dems have had little more to say ...on anything.
Blair was a fiasco and Brown is busily trying to distance himself from all the decisions he was up to his neck in and Cameron, well, as a newcomer and looking even vaguely media savvy, I would say probably is the best of a bad lot.
Having said that as all three parties are climbing on top of echother to hog the centre ground, does it really matter what leader they wheel out, they will steal eachother's clothes and mouth the same platitudes so I can't see what all the excitement is about???"
"Is anyone really taken in by the Tories. We all know the ""bring back Maggie"" brigade are firmly in control of most constituencies and a Conservative government, no matter how green their knickers, would be under pressure from the membership to reintroduce capital punishment for crimes such as being a single mother, being foreign and having a working class accent.
http://greenteeth.blog.co.uk/2007/08/30/widdy_whacked_by_wayward_wench~2896418"
"This new Dave Cameron sounds a lot like the chap who wrote the extreme rightwing manifesto for the 2005 election.
What was that fellows name? David something wasn't it?
This article is about par for the course when it comes to Guardian political journalism, the poor loves have no idea what is going on and seem genuinely surprised that Cameron is actually rather right wing."
"Michael White.
I too believe Cameron to be a credible contender Michael. I think that Gordon Brown's intransigence when it comes to public sector pay deals could well bring about the demise of New Labour. It doesn't go down too well with the rank and file when a labour leader wishes to impose discipline on public sector pay deals, and yet refuses to impose that same discipline on politicians pay.
New Labour has been seen by many as an ersatz Conservative party for some time now; perhaps at the next general election we should vote for the real deal?"
What Cameron needs is to pick (and win) and fight with someone. If he can demonstrate some political grit and balls, then people might start to take him a little more seriously. He needs a clause 4.
"_AT_ TigerDunc
(I'm not stalking you, honest!)
I'd like to see him pick a fight with the Daily Mail about what the Conservative party *really* stands for. IMHO he needs to show floating voters that when he says modernisation he means it, rather than a thin gloss of PC paint over a hulk of unreconstructed bigots. A bit of genuine Adam Smith conservatism might just be what's needed to remove the 'nasty party' moniker."
"Tigerdunk, don't you mean he needs a Group 4?
Come on, this more ron (with thanks to Steve Bell)is a drag act daaarlings!"
"Well, I don't think Brown is doing himself much good with his core vote.
Not respecting an independent review body's wage recommendation, saying nothing about high fliers bonuses, doing nothing about MPs and members of Quangos who must be drowning in gravy, these are not endearing.
Neither is his camera hogging at every opportunity.
Oh, I forgot. He is a politician; he the Conservative, Cameron the Tory."
He looks like a Tory, smells like a Tory, acts like a Tory, he is a Tory NO vote is the answer.
"Michael,
I'm not sure you are right that William Hague's efforts over the (promised) referendum on the constitution are not an election winner. The relief felt over the departure of Tony Blair, and the consequent bounce in the polls for Labour, are in part because so many people thought that Tony was dishonest. He had forfeited our trust and we're glad to see the back of him.
Gordon Brown is playing a dangerous game if he thinks that he can get away with his it-isn't-the-constitution-it-is-a-treaty nonsense. It is quite plain that the two are similar enough to trigger the election manifesto commitment. If he keeps on spouting such a clearly dishonest line then the fragile illusion that Labour spin is over will come apart - and with it the sense that we now have an honest PM.
We don't want to be led by a liar, again."
"I don't quite see the point of this article - I may be missing something.
I gather Michael White says ""He may well win"", right. But conclusive analysis of why he should stand a reasonable chance.
I think on the contrary that the man is not stupid, but is against someone he doesn't have the style to beat. Dave Cameron will never beat Gordon Brown, he lacks any of the tools to do it. What Cameron would need, for example: underhandedness (or political genius), or greater competence, or far greater charisma, or clear and different program, or ... I'm sure there are others.
Instead, he has nothing to offer and should go NOW. Time for the Tories to switch leaders swiftly if they wish to avoid more ridicule."
"The bloke is all smiles and no substance, a bandwagon groupie. He is a disaster for the Conservative Party, he will not have the opportunity of showing what a disaster he would be for the country as his gaffe rate knows no bounds: useless Wendy House wind turbine, insincere posturing on nuclear power, choosing Zac Goldsmith to the chagrin of the local Conservative Party (yes I've shared a few beers on a warm summer night with Tories, they'll serve anyone in Gordon Ramsey's latest gastro pub, even me, in my defence I was invited out for a ""pub meal""), photo-ops in the Arctic, hug a hoodie, not the right kind of immigrant, video games to blame for yoof violence etc.
I'll be voting for Gordon Brown at the next election, I can't see what he could do that would drag him down to the pitiful level of Ming the Merryless or Cameron the Crappy.
Though hopefully I'll be living in America before the next election comes around, unless Brown calls a snap autumn election. Now if only a dour Scot could run for President, he'd solve their budget deficit problems."
"_AT_ contractor000
I'm not sure Cameron hasn't got the style to beat Brown. He has flown a few kites during the silly season - and why not?
Do summer polls actually mean anything? Most people, apart from the political anoraks, are either on holiday or in a frivolous frame of mind.
The new Parliament will be the true test and, my word, Brown has given the Tories some heavy ammunition - no referendum, money (which he had taken away) for flood defences, not paying the Prison Officers their negotiated rise.
And why did he bother to say the killer of Rhys would be caught and punished or was that code that the police would stop looking for racism under every park bench?
It isn't only Brown's lower lip that is wobbly.
His suits are okay, though."
"Nobody seems to have much in the way of standards any more, do they. Dumber and dumber.
How low can we go."
Dear Michael, 'baseball cap man', the 'quiet man' and 'something of the night' man, were all called 'plausible contenders'. History appears to be repeating itself far to quickly for my liking. The Tories put up th aunt Sally, the media build them up and within a year or two , they are gone. 'Bullington' man will go the same way. It would make a change for commentators not to repeat what they had said about his predecessors. Its akin to putting 'bum of the month ' against a champion, knowing full well he isn't going to get past round four. Thew Tories will only have a chance to get in again when the economy takes a big hit. Till then, the Tories may as well put up a monkey. ( Why do you think most of the Tory shadow cabinet only do politics part time?)
I'm with Bugaboo. I thought Brown was doing quite well until he came out with this statement today about controlling pay in the public sector. The prison officers deserve better. I foresee a lot of unhappiness ahead with Labour core voters (what's left of them) and low-paid public sector workers being alienated by the Labour government's refusal to tackle the inequality issue. Having watched David Cameron last night, I think he floundered on the inheritance tax issue and should be pressed more on his views on Trade Unions, low paid workers, the minimum wage and public sector pay. I await his answers with bated breath.
"Thanks Mike
Good stuff and I fully agree with what you are saying in (and in between) your lines.
As an anti-Tory I'm delighted with the way things are going.
The Strike action has shot the Tory fox over tax cuts and I suspect Gordon is getting a bit of help from his friends; the guy is a political genius! He'll eat Cameron for breakfast!
The pressure now is for tax INCREASES on the very rich to fund public services, and soon Gordon will make anyone arguing against look like traitors to the nation.
Cameron has to take on the right wing of his party or fold.
When we see Gordon has a 5-10% lead at this stage (mid way in the third term!) anyone can see that the old Tory Party is finished."
"It is a good article, but there is one aspect about Cameron that is missing. All of this is predicated on a ready assumption that he will actaully be the tory leader come the next election.
The article is really something of a best case scenario for Cameron, but it is not as though there is a shortage of those on the right of the political spectrum who see Cameron as fluff and would happily replace him at the drop of a hat. Indeed, it would be interesting to consider whether Cameron would still be tory leader were there something of a more credible alternative.
I suspect that one reason that he has not produced a great deal of substance is that substance runs the risk of further alienating the right who never exactly warmed to him.
Cameron may well be a good man, but the wider right wing of politics right now looks as though glorious hard-line Thatcherite defeat is something they have an appetite for. And it is far from beyond the realm of possibility that they will look to another leader to deliver it.
I don't question Cameron's ambition, his realism or, fundamentally, that he is a good man. Those who surround him however are rather different.
Brown has probably got more up his sleeve, but even if he didn't the divisions on the right are gaping to the extent that he can rely on them eating their own young. If the faintly massochistic fashion for hoping for a recession to 'get' Labour really is as good an alternative as it gets, it's time to worry for oppositions.
Right now, Brown looks good for the fabled increased majority, Cameron or not."
"i liked his earnest/worried look, helped make up for some of the rubbish he was talking." is funny. I think we've had enough of the faux concerned look and Hugh Grant mannerisms of the last fraudster to fall for it again for the time being. There was a nice photo of Cameron in one of the papers the other day which caught him perfectly, glib, dishonest, calculating.
Dave's biggest problem is UKIP I am not a conspiracy theorist but doesn't suit the Tories more than Labour for UKIP not to have a higher profile. UKIP might split the Tory vote. BBC bias for the Tories.Mmmmmmmmmm
"Morning, stragglers. ManintheMoon, I'm not saying he's like the three earlier ''plausible'' candidates bacause none of them struck me an electable. If Hague had stuck to Plan A and offered himself as Howard's deputy in 1997 who knows, but he made a afatal call. Cameron shows consistently better judgement in my view.
Which is not to suggest he's set to win the election, whenever it comes (May 2009?), only that he is plausible, though the Brownite jibe that he is ''Blair Lite'' may prove a good one. UpNorth, they may all think he's a plonker UpNorth, but the Tories win elections elsewhere in Britain.
David Lindsay thinks the Newsnight team were ''fawning'' and useless, WoollymindedLiberal thinks DC is very rightwing - it's a view, you can find it on CIF without looking far. Myself I doubt it. As for the manifesto draft in 2005, well, someone had to write it, others more senior will have edited it. Chris Patten wrote Mrs Thatcher's in 1979, no one ever called him a Thatcherite as a result. He wasn't one.
Public sector pay as Brown's Achilles Heel ? I doubt that too and don't expect a lot of Discontented Winter grief this season, despite the usual media predictions. The public knows the public sector has grown considerably since 1997 and has mixed feelings about it. But it thinks the public service is meant to be just that: a set of services.
Might be wrong about all of the above, of course. Or not."
Dave's initial 'surge' seems to have been a dividend of the 'Anyone-But-Blair' faction, but since the Master Of The Universe stepped down Dave's Poll ratings have slumped. In scrambling to prop them up he has sidled further and further into the Centre (If you're Tory you call it Left) thus alienating both his core support in the Shires and weakening his own authority among MPs. If the rumours are true there is already an embryonic campaign to oust him, which I'm sure the party managers at Labour HQ are doing everything they can to encourage. Dave's Newsnight appearence should be viewed in this context, as an attempt to win back the ex-Hunting, ex-Shooting and Fishing (They're dead keen on being law-abiding) fraternity and sorority. Immigration as everyone knows is code; no-one seriously proposes deporting Aussies, Kiwis Canadians or certain types of South African or Rhodesian (never Zimbabwean) should they over-stay their visa or work without a permit for the odd decade or so. We all know WHO we mean even if we're not allowed to say the words anymore. It's Dave's curse, he's a forward-thinking Toff in a party that is stuck in the 70s. He's inherited a party wracked with Grammar School snobbery and barrow-boy sensibilities, does anyone still want to be 'One Of Us'?
"""hmmmm. To not want large numbers of foreigners in your country to live = racism.""
No, not always. The problem is that you're looking at immigration purely as a social issue when its not really about social policy at all - its all about economics. That's why, traditionally, the position of the left was against mass immigration. Mass immigration robs the workers at the lowest end of the spectrum of what little power they have."
"Michael White doesn't think there will be another Winter of Discontent because ""The public knows the public sector has grown considerably since 1997""
Maybe but I'm not so sure that there's not a dam of pay claims ready to burst once one high profile sector succeeds. For instance the nurses (but not doctors - I wonder why?) seem more militant despite the threefold (?) increase in NHS funding. Police?, firefighters? higher education (not a happy sector paywise) etc"
"How are my unskilled young constituents going to cope when they're up against bilingual, highly-motivated Poles?" Just a thought here. Why are this MP's constituents in this unfortunate position after 10 years of glorious Nulab rule? Because they can get everything they need from a massively bloated welfare state without an education and lifting a finger thats why. Why are the Poles skilled bilingual and most of all highly motivated? Because the Poles bloody well work hard, get off their arses and actively seek paid employment - thats why. No safety net in Poland ya see. No employer in his right mind is going to choose the uneducated, unintelligent, work shy generation created by Blair/Brown over a determined, capable, hardworking immigrant. QED
"""How are my unskilled young constituents going to cope when they're up against bilingual, highly-motivated Poles?""
Well, they could learn a language and get some motivation, I suppose.
I didnt see Newsnight, but did he put foward any policies? Or was it more hand-waving and gesture policitics."
"""Because the Poles bloody well work hard, get off their arses and actively seek paid employment - thats why.""
Yes, companies like making use of immigrant labour because they're 'hard working.' By 'hard working' we of course mean 'endlessly exploitable:' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6922951.stm"
"Andronicus says: 'That's why, traditionally, the position of the left was against mass immigration. Mass immigration robs the workers at the lowest end of the spectrum of what little power they have.'
This isn't true. The Labour movement has traditionally taken the view that all workers should stand together for better wages and conditions and has worked to ensure the right can't exploit divisions between workers based on nationality, race, religion or whatever. Large chunks of the left have always held the position that all controls on the movement of people should be abolished throughout the world - as they are, in effect, for white people.
The same is happening now. New workers are being recruited to unions; unions are creating eastern European stewards and organisers and are setting up branches for new arrivals where appropriate.
In reality, outside of the media and the hopeful right, there is very little antagonism on the ground. Most people just get on, regardless of where they come from and have no desire to fight each other for the benefit of the bosses."
It's our generous benefits system that needs sorting out.if you pay people to do nothing they will do nothing,it's as simple as that!.
"I'm not a fan of the man but it was ""Two-brains"" Willets who pointed out that it was difficult to have a high-immigration society and a large welfare state.
If people didn't know or recognise one another then they're be a lot less inclined to contribute resources to house and feed others. That would suggest the natural corollary of high immigration is a more limited welfare state.
The constituents of these MPs could therefore soon have plenty of motivation to become bi-lingual and highly-motivated."
"""On Newsnight, David Cameron looked sufficiently in command of the situation to be a plausible contender when election time comes.""
I am not sure whether to laugh or cry at the implications of this bit of subbing. Newsnight = politics ? Lord, we are truly f_AT_cked."
"""This isn't true. The Labour movement has traditionally taken the view that all workers should stand together for better wages and conditions...""
And how are you supposed to do that when the employers are able to bring in vast reserves of cheap, disposable labour?"
I thought the "interview" was revealing only in how little it revealed. Michael Crick:"Mr.Cameron,are you against bad things?" Cameron:"Michael,the party I lead is committed to good things and is totally against bad things." Wow..radical,Dave.. By the way,is Cameron's face shrinking?He used to have a vast expanse of face,rather more than is thought decent,leaving his eyes,ears and nose in lonely isolation in the middle...but he seems to have less now.Either his face has shrunk or his features have grown.Mind you,I wouldn't vote for him if he promised me hot and cold running sunshine and a car that runs on tap-water.
"Re immigrant workers: I wonder how many Brits who cannot get a job are in Poland?
Not many I'd guess!"
niceonecyril, your argument doesn't add up the UK Social Security system is the worst in Europe. GENEROUS ????
At one point Mr.Slimeball said that we should be like America 'cos there no matter how poor you are you can rise to the top.Tell that to the millions of Americans who live a thirld world existance.No jobs,no health insurance,no hope.
"Well reasoned and finely argued article, Michael. David Cameron was masterful and showed that he is a potential Prime Minister on Newsnight, despite attempts by the four interviewers to trip him up. Where was Kirsty Wark?
And yet, according to YouGov in the Daily Telegraph, Labour is on 41%, the Conservatives on 33% and the Liberal Democrats on 14%.
What about the meagre 14% that the Lib Dems have, as many people who voted LibDem in the 2005 General Election are apparently returning to Labour because Brown is not Blair. They voted LibDem because of the Iraq war and other matters. I ask these people - do you really think that Labour under Brown is any different from under Blair? Brown is the man who voted for, and moreover, paid for the war you voted against. Just recently, the LibDems highlighted the crisis that is the aftermath of the war.
And the Conservatives on 33% - under David Cameron, its best ever leader, who alongside David Davis stood tall against crime and social breakdown at the weekend - and who was masterful on Newsnight against onslaught from a rather one-sided panel who seemed more interested in immigration than the current key policy areas that the Tories realise need to be addressed?
Exactly what is the electorate thinking? Why is it sleepwalking its way to disaster? (With the exception of the Scottish people, who are turning their backs on Labour.) There is no way that Brown is going to call a snap general election because of the uncertainty of the opinion polls - and the vagaries of the economy - and because he honestly isn't confident enough to take the risk.
I make further points on my blog ... http://thewiltedrose.wordpress.com"
Wilted rose I have never read such a brown nosing post apart from Mark Green talking about Nick Cohen.
Michael White must be one of the few left who has not seen thru Camerons PR and Spin.Keep it up Michael he might give a job in TORY CENTRAL OFFICE PR Department.
"Exactly, Andronicus Comnenus.
The unrestricted movement of labour is inseperable from the unrestricted movement of goods, services and capital; and vice versa. Mass immigration is being used to import a new working class which understands no English except commands, has no idea of workers' rights in this country, can be moved around at will because it has no attachment to any specific locality here, and can be deported if it steps out of line. And the attendant enforced multilingualism creates and perpetuates elites such as that which already exists in Wales.
If supporting any of this puts one on the Left, then no wonder the white and Afro-Caribbean English-speaking working class barely votes at all any more! A new political movement is required.
davidaslindsay_AT_hotmail.com, http://davidaslindsay.blogspot.com"
"Mike, nice try to stir things up with your optimistic ""Dave looks like he could go the distance"" punt. But some of us have not been asleep during the wicked month and, from where I'm standing, Dave still doesn't look like a contender.
There is no Tory pussyfooting about the immigrant/racial topic: everybody knows that when Dave says ""I think Labour has let in too many immigrants"" it's a not very coded message to let the little Englanders know that he feels their pain about Polish pea-pickers. And as for ""anarchy in the UK"", talk about jumping on the bandwagon. They all try this one every time a few high profile murders top the TV news, as if Brown/Blair had a hand in it.
I didn't see the supposedly soft Newsnight interview, by the way, but there's probably no harm in giving Dave a run out. Breaks up the tedium of August, gives a few columnists something to do.
So what would really count as Dave showing promise, fickle polls aside? How about some solid PMQ and by-election victories, some Brown screw-ups or forced errors, Labour defections and splits. We've yet to see any of this and, actually, the last time I looked it was all going the other way."
"rafferty ""At one point Mr.Slimeball said that we should be like America 'cos there no matter how poor you are you can rise to the top..""
It is probably why more of them still go to church. If they already understood the Christ story there would be no 'poor' and no mega-rich - just REAL equal citizens.
Still its always easier to give something lip service than it is to live the example the lip service is given to.
How can every one live ""at the top""?
Elitism has always been the greatest threat to the rest of humanity."
"leftisdead, I can assure you I was not trying to brown-nose (good pun, though; isn't Brown-nosing that what Labour MPs do in order to get ministerial jobs?). I just thought it was a good article and may have been a little effusive [I think that's the right word] in my praise.
http://thewiltedrose.wordpress.com"
"Weird. White uses intelligent analysis on the conduct of a professional politician and the trolls come out. Have no doubt the other major parties were watching Cameron's performance with interest. I bet they were quietly impressed too.
Meanwhile, David Lindsay and Andronicus Comnenus adopt a left-wing Daily Mail line over immigration. So much for compelling the feckless welfare driven masses in the UK (over 5m over 'em) to work, blame the bloody foreigners instead. Truth is guys, the traditonal working classes rarely work these days. The younger ones are ducking and dodging the welfare snoopers and dealing drugs. Employers don't want slaves. In fact they'd love UK employees - language is a problem with many of these immigrants you see. But they can't find suffient numbers of motivated, hardworking folks form the native population. But I suppose it suits your myopic old socilaist worldview. Fact: there are more jobs in the UK today than ever before. Fact: there are thousands upon thousands of vacancies out there right now. Fact: 10 years od NuLab, in benign economic conditions, has hardly dinted the numbers of economcially inactive UK residents. It's not because of immigration or that the jobs are dead-end. It's because we've come to arrangement with these folks. Take your benefit, take your drugs (including prozac on the NHS), and pretty much do what you like. Our sanctions are usaulkly pretty toothless. Just keep out of the way of the bruscetta eating classes. That's the scandal - not the poor, and usually very hardworking, Poles."
"Dave can't make it.
Reason: he's not up to it as has become painfully obvious over the last six months or so.
Reason: El Gordo has left not one, but two goals - public sector pay and EU constitution - gapingly open and all we seem to have is Dave hovering and havering about showing off his ball skills in the middle of the park.
Problem: the Tories will never elect anybody who could win even if such a near-extinct beast could be found.
Reason: It's too late now, but in Tory terms, giving the membership control over the leadership was signing the party's death warrant.
Prognosis: no change of Tory leader; El Gordo body swerves his way round public sector pay and EU, probably with a hefty trade off between the two with the unions; election Autumn 2008 if the British Army is out of Iraq; Labour win."
"David Cameron is such a massive hypocrite it makes me want to vomit.
Last Monday Dave said something to the effect of: a culture change that celebrates marriage is needed to help combat problems with unruly youths.
So what exactly explains his membership in the notorious Bullingdon Club? What was the rationale behind his youthful yobbery? Was it a broken marriage? Was it a weak community structure?
Or was it just that teenagers get into trouble because they're bored and have nothing better to do, same as it's been since the beginning of time.
And furthermore, seeing as how Davey boy sees no need to apologise for his behaviour or that of his compatriots, I wonder why he has such a problem when others do it? Maybe it's because he's not talking about all yobs, just chavvy ones? Could it be that this is just traditional Tory contempt for the poor and working class exposed? Again?
There's nothing in the universe more dangerous than a bored teenager. Except maybe someone who thinks that his money makes him better than other people. He's nothing more than Paris Hilton with a fancy degree."
"I wasn't very impressed by how Cameron did on Newsnight. He seems to have been rattled by the last few months and fallen back on platitudes and soundbites. If he has a good conference he can get back on track, but if not, he'll have a very, very tough job to impress in the next election.
JusticeIsMine - ""As an anti-Tory I'm delighted with the way things are going.
The Strike action has shot the Tory fox over tax cuts and I suspect Gordon is getting a bit of help from his friends; the guy is a political genius! He'll eat Cameron for breakfast!
The pressure now is for tax INCREASES on the very rich to fund public services, and soon Gordon will make anyone arguing against look like traitors to the nation.""
Hello JIM. Do you write Private Eye's Letter From the Dear Leader column in your spare time?"
"""So much for compelling the feckless welfare driven masses in the UK (over 5m over 'em) to work, blame the bloody foreigners instead.""
Yes, typical Guardian-reader behaviour. Defend the working classes up to the point they fail to live up to your middle class ideals and world view, then kick them down when its convenient. Yes, its all the working classes fault. They don't work because they're all ignorant and idle and too busy worshipping Wayne Rooney. Its got nothing to do with the fact that many traditional working class jobs have vanished and those left in their wake simply don't offer enough for normal people to live off."
"Paraphrasing -
Flanders: You support marriage but I'm not married and have children. Are you saying I should get married? Cameron: No, I'm not telling you you should be married. I'm saying that in general, people should get married. Flanders: So you're not saying that I should get married? Cameron: No, but in general, I support marriage. Flanders: So you support it in general but not in individual cases? Camneron: That's right. I want the tell the faceless masses to get married but not have to deal with the political and moral implications of applying that policy to identifiable individuals...
Heh!"
Rose's comment about the Lib Dems sounded perfectly reasonable to me -- why *are* so many flocking (back) to Labour, when Labour remains as authoritarian and warmongering as ever?
"GarryS - isn't that a question that could be asked of just about any policy?
'We believe that it is a healthy society that gives voluntarily to the needy. So we support tax relief on charitable giving'
'Are you telling me to take out a direct debit to Oxfam?'
'No.'"
"I find it amazing how many CiF contributors automatically extrapolate their viewpoints as representative of the masses. My viewpoint is correct so everybody else must agree with me - why can't they see sense!
CiF contributors are NOT representative of the general public. We are opinionated, politicised and (in general terms - i.e. above the average) informed.
I am also suprised by the reaction from some contributors here, along the lines of:
I don't care if several opinion polls conducted by different organisations over a period of time have all illustrated a general trend of decreased support for the Conservatives and LibDems with the NuLab being the beneficiaries - well they (everyone else) can go hang, they are (all) wrong because I can see through the shallow soundbyte style enunciated by Brown and his merry band of charlatans; come the election they (the electorate) will all see the widsom of this and vote the incumbent bunch of rogues out on their ear! (presumably to install another set of rogues)
This rejection of reality beggars belief.
What is perhaps more salient to this discussion is the impact (on the overall result) of contests at constituency level. Depending upon individual circumstances including amongst others:
the quality of candidates the amount of (human) resources devoted to the task by contestants and their party the amount of (financial) resources thrown at the problem by each party local issues of widespread resonance/import which can be exploited by an individual candidate/party the fickleness and/or sophistication of local constituency electorates
contests at constituency level can diverge significantly (to the benefit/detriment of all parties) from any public opinion norms established at Natonal level. In other words the rule book goes out of the window!
Even the size of majority plays a part because disgruntled floating supporters are much more likely to change their votes in marginal constituencies where they believe they can make a difference - i.e. by unseating an incumbent and therefore teaching them (and their party) a lesson, than waste them in solid seats. Floaters in safe seats will revert to type and just vote the same as last time, usually for the incumbent or abstain, i.e. not bother because there is something good to watch on TV that night!
All of the above are inherent weaknesses of FPTP. Some commentators (such as the author) like to pretend that these factors all contribute to a process in which the electorate can deliver sophisticated responses to changing political fortunes. I am more inclined to believe that FPTP offers only one kind of collective tool to voters and it is more akin to a sledgehammer than a pair of tweezers!
Overall general election results are more a matter of luck than judgement but then what do I know about these things? I am just a deluded idealist who cares about democracy first rather than the squalid affair of securing power!"
"I wouldn't say a contender, Michael, a little too wide eyed for that, I thought. However, he did manage Mr 'agressive' Michael Crick quite well. He deserves a 'well done' sticker for that alone. We need to see more policies though before the word 'contender' is mentioned again.
upnorth - ""Sorry Mike but just about everyone I know thinks ""Dave"" is a slippery sod who will say anything he reckons people want to hear"".
Just like Mr Blair and Mr Brown then."
"CagedHorse, I guess it is because Brown has successfully -for now, anyway - depicted himself as 'not Bliar' (actually that was a typo, but I shall leave it as it is), even though he voted for and bankrolled the war.
If Bush had handed over power to someone else (not Cheney, obviously) without a Presidential Election, would the American people buy it the way the British electorate seems to ?
http://thewiltedrose.wordpress.com"
"Look Andronicus, don't blame the foreigners or the employers for this. There are over 5m economically inactive in the UK right now - over half claiming disability benefit (most of these for 'depression', or relatively minor ailments). A generation has now been lost to heroin (cf Plaid's recent report on mining communites in Wales)weed, cocaine or prozac (on the NHS). Compel them to work and you get wheelchair protesters chaining themselves to Downing Street and the Guardian/Independent letters and comment pages comparing you to Hitler. The old Labour Party (pre-war) would have been horrified by what we've let happen. As the American politician once said, if the people got good government, they wouldn't like it.
By all means, buy a foundry or a shipyard or a cotton mill yourself to provide traditional working class jobs. But you'll struggle to make it pay and employ the thousands that they used to. If you were succesful, you'd probably put some poor benighted Asian out of a job and piss off the natives by making them do work that the Health and Safety Executive would probably frighten them to death about. But making it into some evil, corrupt, capitalist conspiracy doesn't provide any useful solutions."
"David Cameron a Contender? Well I suppose that's on paper but the reality is that the Conservatives are going to lose the elections and then they will have another election to decide who is going to lead their Party.
But don't insult the public intelligence -The conservative are right of right wing in their approach to politics and management they were the worse scenario that this country could have.
As for Scottish devolution , have we heard anything yet from Dave? No I guess not as some views are kept private. Sorry David Cameron there is much work on the policy front yet and yes the elections are very near so be prepared or you will suffer a bigger landslide."
"There are 5 main reasons to vote Tory. I never have in my life, but I may well do so next time.
1. They will scrap ID cards and roll back the surveillance state. 2. They will actually pursuse meaningful policies on climate change. 3. Relentless taxation may well stop. 4. They will slow down immigration. 5. They are committed to a more equal society than the 10 shocking years of Blair/Brown have produced.
And for what it's worth, I believe Cameron to be more trustworthy than either of them.
So after 30 years of voting Labour, I'll probably vote Tory for the first time. This is not about right/left, this is about a better government, for a better society. More of the same from Brown is not an option."
"_AT_SocialistMike
""This isn't true. The Labour movement has traditionally taken the view that all workers should stand together for better wages and conditions and has worked to ensure the right can't exploit divisions between workers based on nationality, race, religion or whatever.""
Andronicus has a point. The dockers shamefully went on strike/marched in support of Enoch Powells 'Rivers of Blood' speech in the sixties. Obviously some of the traditional labour movement were just a tad off-message there."
"Argh, I had a long reply typed out, then the bloody browser crashed. Its almost if the allmighty is trying to get me to do some work or something.
Anyway, the Digest -Immigrants aren't to be blamed for the system. If they had the economics knowledge to understand the system and their place with in it, they would'nt be coming over here to pick fruit or clean bogs.
-If employers don't want slaves care to explain the Domino's pizza case above or the use of sweat shops by many big western brands?
-Care to explain why if English is so important employers are happy to out source to countries which offer a much poorer level of English but much cheaper wage bills?
-Being on the dole is rubbish. That's why people on the dole end up on heroin or prozac. Noone says 'mummy, when I grow up I want to be a heroin addict'. People would get off the dole if they could.
-People don't turn down work because they're lazy, if they turn down work it'll be because it doesn't pay enough for them to live off."
"tommyjimmy, that's an interesting point.
Not sure it stands up. I'd rewrite your example this way:
'We believe that it is a healthy society that gives voluntarily to the needy. So we support tax relief on charitable giving'
'Are you telling me it would be best for society if I gave voluntarily to the needy?'
'Yes.'
And I'd rewrite the marriage example this way:
We believe that it is a healthy society that brings children up in married relationships.
'Are you telling me it would be best for society if I got married when I have children?'
'No.'"
"There are 5 main reasons to vote Tory. I never have in my life, but I may well do so next time. Yes of course you never voted Tory. Pull the other one
1. They will scrap ID cards and roll back the surveillance state. Why are the tories going to ban cameras at shopping centres and on the motorway. Also ID cards ws originally a Tory idea. Didn't thatcher want a football ID card system. It won't be introduced because of economic reasons 2. They will actually pursuse meaningful policies on climate change. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
3. Relentless taxation may well stop. Might do but more likely every other government including Thatcher they will move the goalposts 4. They will slow down immigration. How. We have the most draconian immigration laws in Europe. Most of the immigrants are illegal. Like probition , more you try to stop them more will come in 5. They are committed to a more equal society than the 10 shocking years of Blair/Brown have produced. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Jarrah your not Nick cohen in disguise are you."
"jarrah There are 5 main reasons to vote Tory. I never have in my life, but I may well do so next time.
Pretending to be a changling fools nobody. ""Act is if"" and the fools will follow. Yeah right!
""1. They will scrap ID cards and roll back the surveillance state.""
You think so? Polticians NEVER act according to their rhetoric.
""2. They will actually pursuse meaningful policies on climate change.""
You think so?
""3. Relentless taxation may well stop.
Correct - now revist number 2 in your list.""
""4. They will slow down immigration.""
Now revisit number 1 in your list and explain how.
5. They are committed to a more equal society than the 10 shocking years of Blair/Brown have produced.
History proves otherwise and current rhetoric shows not a lot changes.
""And for what it's worth, I believe Cameron to be more trustworthy than either of them.""
Puppets never pull their own strings. Politcians are frontment, salesmen if you will - why do you think he is having to revert to politics a la Norman Tebbit?
""More of the same from Brown is not an option.""
Puppets never pull their own strings - the reason why there is no difference between the two main parties is because America calls the tune and Murdoch is the claxon?
This old tit for tat debating has to stop - the British public can see right through it, and the people still trying to sell the same old stuff. The only difference between the Conservatives and New Labour is like the difference between a ""Flake"" and a ""Ripple"" - one has a coating of chocolate over it - to disguise the fact that it is exactly the same thing you are buying - thus increasing market share for the same product.
Elitism has always been the greatest threat to the rest of humanity."
Jarrah,Go and see a doctor,you have clearly lost your mind if you believe that the Tories will do any of the things you state.
"I don't think there is much of a difference, Garry. The Tories really are saying that it would be best for society if you get married when you have children, but they don't want to say so quite that directly.
It feels much less judgmental if politicians set up an abstract structure of taxation, in which certain kinds of behaviour are encouraged and some discouraged, than if they point the finger at YOU, SONNY JIM. And tell YOU what's wrong with YOUR lifestyle, and why WE are so much wiser than YOU.
But whenever you have a tax and benefits system that deliberately makes some kinds of behaviour carry a penalty, the government will always be rewarding some and punishing others. It seems a little unfair to single out the Tories like this, when you could apply Stephanie Flanders' question to so many other matters.
Many politicians think it'd be better if society drank less. That feels much less intrusive than if they say that anyone drinking more than three pints is anti-social, even though it's basically saying the same thing. By making it less personal, they make it less insulting.
She could equally ask a Treasury minister if, since she'll be off to a bar for several glasses of wine after the show, she's a menace to society. It would be just as hard to argue, since these kinds of punitive taxes aren't usually aimed at BBC presenters."
"rafferty, leftisdead, followyourheart.
Well it's true. I have never, ever voted Tory. Ever. At any level, not local, national Eurpoean, or even as a student for the student union. Nothing. Not once. I used to be very proud of that fact, I used to swear that I would never ever vote Conservative. Maybe I was beguiled by the rhetoric that always stated, still does, that 'left is good, right is bad.' It's just ideology.
In my first ever national vote at 18, I voted Liberal, largely because my mum always had. After that, I voted steadfastly Labour in every national and local election. Was even a local member for a short time. I think it was while a member, in the 1980s, that I began to see just how corrupt and dishonest the Labour Party actually were. They've got a lot worse since then. What did it for me was when I was on the selection panel for the local council, and I got a phone call late one night trying to persuade me to stand down from a selection meeting, as they wanted to fix the selection to push forward their preferred candidate, who was one of a group several of whom had already been elected. I was an unpleasant phone call. Then i saw Kinnock begin to destroy the old labour party, and after the 1987 election, I stopped voting at all. I voted Labour one more time, in 1997, to get Thatcher out, and haven't since. I voted Green after that in locals, and about 4 years ago stopped voting altogeher.
But what choice do you think there is? Being pragmatic, what are the alternatives? I have been absolutely disgusted at the ractionary nature of todays' Labour government, and despair at the drift towards recationary, far right policies, the worship of big business, the contempt for democracy and the people.
Do any of you really think that sticking with Brown for another 5 - 7 years will do any kind of good? Brown the pension stealer, Brown the ID card promoter, who wants all your details to sell to big business, Brown the Empire lover, Brown the war financier, Brown the tax-and piss-it-up-the-wall fanatic? You want that for another 5- 7 years? 170 billion (yes, one hundred and seventy billion - unbelievable, isn't it?) of our money being spent every year on quangos? 7 billion every year spent on mangement consultants? What part of all that is worth sticking with?
Frankly, I'm blowed if I'm going to let any government force an ID card on me, force me to be fingerprinted and scanned like a common criminal, tell me I can't protest threaten me with jail if I do, send council snoopers round my house to force their way in and try to force me to pay extra bloody tax. I don't care if they're Labour, Green, Tory or Martians, they're not doing it.
What on earth harm then, will voting Tory do? How can it be any worse? yes they could well be liars, probably are, but then so is Brown. if it's a choce between another 5- 7 years of the same., or taking a chance, then I'll take a chance. mayube then my little boy can grow up in a country that isn't dominated by liars, warmongers, spivs and proto-Stalinists. I'm ceratinly not going to vote Labour out of a sense of duty, ideological blindness or habit. We are not robots."
Oh, I think you just don't get it. The insipid Cameron will never be PM nor do the clever Tories ever intend for him to be. They have absolutely no interest in forming the Government in the near future, taking from Labour the responsibility for Iraq, crime, the looming recession and so on. Propping up Cameron is an insurance policy against that. No, they'll wait for the crash to come- and when they see their moment, have no doubt the Tories will drop Windmill Dave like a hot potato and bring in a serious leader.
"jarrah: ""But what choice do you think there is? Being pragmatic, what are the alternatives?""
Ask yourself a serious question: why do think there are no credible alternatives? Why is the political landscape littered with parties dressing themselves up as different but when you look beneath the bedclothes are in fact the same thing in different drag?
Voting system by any chance?"
"padav: I agree wholeheartedly. Our corrupt voting system is a major obstacle to proper democracy, and has to go. That's why I'm a member of Make My Vote Count.
Not that it does much good though, since it seems to rely mostly on writing letters, which of course, this being a despotism, all the MPs just ignore.
I feel that the only way we'll ever get representational voting is by refusing to vote until we do. Maybe if we all witheld our votes it would precipitate a constituional crisis. Good. But it'll have to be co-ordinated. i wonder why MMVC and other pressure groups don't co-ordinate a national campaign. Perhaps we could go further, and threaten to withold our tax until we get a referendum on PR. Will it ever happen? it's as unlikely as Brown ever telling the truth."
"jarrah: Funny you should mention that but as they say (somewhat tongue in cheek) ""great minds think alike""; you echo my thoughts precisely.
I am also active in Make Votes Count (in Greater Manchester and North West England) and have been thinking along the same lines as you.
I have been cogitating the idea of guerilla style action at the next general election. One of the profound weaknesses of FPTP is the fact that election outcomes turn on the voting behaviour of relatively few individuals in key constituencies as this URL frighteningly illustrates http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/makediff.htm
Surely it is not beyond the wit and resources of various campaign groups dedicated to championing the cause of more equitable voting systems to identify exactly where the key voters are located and coordinate their activities accordingly. The big two political parties sure as hell spend a fortune on the process so surely between them, MVC, ERS, Unlock Democracy, Power and others can target these voters and persuade them to either vote in a specific manner or abstain in order that a balanced overall (hung parliament) result is achieved; in other words deliberately counter-rigging an inherently rigged system to deliver the desired outcome.
This would not require any unlawful action on the part of anyone, just a lot of painstaking research and then a lot of door to door and/or poster campaigning. However, I wouldn't be surprised to find Labour and Conservatives attempting to invoke spurious electoral laws if they discovered any concerted campaign along these lines; particularly if it was actually have the desired impact!"
Its obvious why Brown doesn't want to have the referendum, if he does labour will be force to be pro-EU and the Tories will be anti-eu, the anti-eu vote will win. It will be highly publicised and we be a disaster for the Labour vote in the long run. This is why we are being denied the vote not because of what in the constitution but what would happen from a referendum. and from their point of view ignoring the cries is much easier than taking them head on and letting the public decide.,
"""Is this a meaningless coincidence? ""
As coincidences go it doesn't seem to be all that spectacular, a man of Jamaican origin is one of 50 odd people killed in London, if every single person killed on public transport was not of Jamaican/West Indian origin that would merit surprise.
If you want to attach meaning to it feel free."
I'm not sure I understand why you bothered to write this. According to you everything is lovely, so I guess you must be right. If only everyone could be headgirl.
Christian fundamentalist evangelists also prey on people with low self-esteem and restricted options. And, like the Islamic nutters, they also have moronic views about sexuality, women's rights, etc. But their dupes don't blow themselves up. So what's the essential difference?
"So what's the essential difference?" None because both sides use other people to do the job for them.B & B and all the rest of the Chicken Hawks who are to scared to fight themselves but send others on their Crusade. And lets not forget the white supremecists who now only have the second biggest terroist attrocity in America.Must be really galling that a bunch of .....Muslims out performed them.Oh and what about the christian militia in Lebanon oh sorry they were working for the Israelis and they were only killing Muslims so thats alright then.
shivambu ............ oh whats the point.
I take issue with cultural relativists who use euphemisms like "female circumcision." The correct term is clitoridectomy -- that is, the practice of excising the clitoris and all its barbaric variations, ensuring that a woman's experience of sex will be forever with associated with pain, discomfort, and mortal danger (in the event of pregnancy). To use the term "female circumcision" as though it were in any way the physical or moral equivalent to male circumcision is ignorant and dishonest at best.
"""But a noticeably high proportion of Muslim men in Walthamstow are white""
Here's a quote from John Birt's son who is a convert. 'Probably half the Buddhists but fewer than 1 per cent of Muslims in Britain are converts. There are some 15,000 converts to Islam, about 40 per cent of them from black and Asian backgrounds. There is nothing very remarkable about this. The divine supermarket, like Tesco�s, is now better stocked and offers more choice for the customer looking for something a bit out of the ordinary.'
I suppose it shows two things A Sounds like he could have been a Buddhist or a Zoroastrian or a pagan if he'd picked another box up at the supermarket. B Being a twat is obviously genetically transmitted."
I love how it's always 'Governments' who fail people. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? So typical that lefties seek to blame bad behaviour on some nebulous organisation. I suppose the reason that Ahmedinjihad and khomaniac et al are would be bond baddies is a result of poor council houses and no lidos when they were growing up.
"Oh please God or Allah whoever he or she is save us from spoilt little poppets like this.
Of course most people are nice to each other most of the time. It's the rest of the time that's the problem"
Well, there are those that post here that always want to hurl abuse at anyone who makes the effort to understand what is going on when young people are recruited to radical extremism. If you want simplistic, racist and tribal explanations for everything then stick to the Sun and the Daily Mail. There seems to be so much hate going around that I'm surprised there isn't an army of plump Mrs. Buckets going around with dynamite strapped to their breast blowing up "spoilt little poppets". Shame on you who hurl abuse at someone trying their best to work through these things.
Mick Hume has written a very similar piece in today's Times. What a relief to get away from plots and stratagems and so called 'leaders' jesuitical points scoring.
I was always taught from an early age that everything was the resposibility of the individual not governments, governments are meant to guide us, but all actions right or wrong are the resposibility of the individual. It is the right that advocates that there is no such thing as society, socialism decrees that society has a responsibility for the downtrodden. To use religion as a crutch is also wrong a human being is overall responsable for their actions, where your bought up does not excuse bad behavior or good its what your upbringing was like, coming from a socialist back ground, which goes far back, I am resposible not only for myself but also my neighbours.
"Vanessa's observations and analysis are spot on. The bit about Islam salvaging poor communities is something I've witnessed here in Istanbul. After the liberalization wave of the 90's this city suffered a massive social breakdown in its explosively-growing poor suburbs (which are poor but not slums). Crime, drugs, family breakups and all the rest of it became endemic. The government was too caught up in the war against the PKK to do anything about it and the Kurdish internal immigrants expelled from the war zone made things a lot worse.
Both Saudi and Iran jumped in to exploit this phenomenon by pouring money into madrassas and charities. Women were bribed to wear Iranian-style headscarves, which have today completely supplanted the traditional Turkish style. The Iranian-sponsored Turkish Hezbollah started killing people right and left, including my former boss the famous cinema curator Onat Kutlar and the courageous Muslim feminist Gonca Kuris, whose body was found in a Hezbollah torture cellar.
Despite all the Iranian mischief, Saudi came out on top when the head of the Turkish Muslim Brotherhood chapter Necmeddin Erbakan rode the Islamist wave into a coalition government with CIA agent Tansu Ciller, Turkey's first female premier. That wacky pair turned out to be one of the worst governments the country ever saw, which led to a revolt in Mr. Erbakan's party, producing the current PM's party the AKP.
The AKP won the elections not so much with bribes but rather by recruiting women in the poor urban districts. This was a revolution in the traditional patriarchal social order. Women went out of their homes unsupervised by men, canvassed for votes, and won. Since it was all in a good cause - religion - the men could only praise them. The women got a huge boost in their self-esteem.
Any sociologist worth his salt knows that if you want to improve the lot of the poor, you have to empower the women. They are the ones whom you can trust to work for their families and not get drunk or go whoring or gambling. That's what the AKP's Islamic populism has done for the Turkish poor. Today the women of the poor districts who were once locked up in their homes are all over the place, getting an education, working, taking their kids to the doctor, and of course scouring the shopping malls. The fact that they all wear headscarves to placate male egos frightens the urban upper & middle class, especially the women, who think they are being invaded by the legions of Khomeini. These panicked housewives then start having military coup fantasies to stop what they imagine is the Islamist tsunami that will imprison them in the mysoginist shackles of Sharia law.
Their shrill clamoring emboldens the military and their bureaucratic clients, who have succeeded so far in blocking all attempts to lift the headscarf ban in schools, thus paradoxically depriving women of the means of liberation - through secular education and the career opportunities it opens up for them.
Unlike Iran's Islamic ""revolution"", Turkey's Islamic populism has turned the hijab into a power suit for women, whose eagerness to adopt is above all an expression of their desire to escape male-dominated mediocrity and misery, and to build a better life for themselves and their families. It sound paradoxical but it works and will continue to work in spite of all the hysteria it may provoke among urban Turkish housewives and western islamophobes."
Of course Islam and its minions reach out to the disaffected, the lost, and the desperate. Islam is a missionary cult and this is what missionary cults do: Christians, Scientologists, Moonies, Muslims etc. all do the same thing, which is to try to win recruits and to extend their influence. Islam is a particularly sinister cult in this regard, given that it prescribes the death penalty for any recruit who subsequently changes his or her mind. If the Moonies or similar did this, there'd be an outcry. But if a cult is big enough and old enough, it gets rebranded as a "religion" and we're all supposed to "respect" its superstitions, brainwashing techniques, silly rituals, and myriad nasty little rules.
"DrGillespie
RE Christian fundamentalist evangelists vs suicide bombers
'..(Christians)dont blow themselves up. So what's the essential difference?'
One has a couple of kilos of explosive tied to them..the other has an F16.
What would you choose?
B"
�At the time I was lucky enough to receive one of those now-obsolete government scholarships to a private girls' school in the centre of London.� The most telling sentence in the entire article.
"""From ridiculous ricin theories to fruitless raids in Forest Gate and a fatally flawed shooting, in the government's war on home-grown terror there has been an abject failure to see the wood from the trees.""
It sounds like there was more than just trees in this wood of yours, what with all the bomb kits lying around."
"goog1 -'love how it's always 'Governments' who fail people. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? So typical that lefties seek to blame bad behaviour on some nebulous organisation.'
Its about who has the power. Human beings are not solitary creatures. We are social animals, its where our strength lies. Think about it, on our own with no clothes or weapons we are totally defensless (I am speaking biologically here) and we wouldn't be here. Organised into groups we(humans) were able to dominate the world.
Since WW2 for all sorts of good reasons (better housing etc) communities have been broken up and moved out to faceless housing estates. people were cut adrift and became less resiliant. Better public transport and more cars combined to allow most people to live a long way from their place of work so work mates now live miles apart. People at the bottom of the pile suffer more as they often don't have their own transport, can't reach their workmates out of working hours(if they work). People go indoors in the evenings and watch TV.
Whatever you feel about Unions and strikes etc it is interesting to note that almost the last work based communities were the pit villages. Its no accident that the miners held out for so long. they came from strong communities. Governments (and those they serve which isn't you or me even though it should be) have a much easier life if our communities are not strong,it makes us easier to govern. The casualties of course can be blamed for not having enough 'personal responsibility'. Today personal responsibility is increasingly the only responsibility we recognise. Most religious teaching does have the merit of preaching SOCIAL responsibility what the Anglican catechism calls 'My duty towards my neighbour'. If you want know who your neighbour is read the parable of the good Samaritan and remember that 1st century Jews despised Samaritans. An important part of that story that is often missed today.
BTW I am not a christian but I do think there is a lot to christian ethics(ignored by a lot of Christians sadly). I am sure this is true of other religions,it is lack of knowlege not sectarianism that prevents me from furnishing examples.
We need to rebuild our communities easy to type, not easy to do..."
"Coldcall
' ..its stable of wacky lefties...'
'..journalists..stop fantasising.. in their pipedream'
'..We have..serious homegrown '
Who's been having pipe dreams?
B"
"""Atleast you can post here without being what the BBC call ""moderated"", which actually means ""if we agree with you"". ""
Not really - the sitcoms thread seems to have vanished, and dozens of posts were deleted from it first, my own included.
Reagrding this article, I lived in East London, in Forest Gate as it goes, for nine years all in. I can't say islam was the main problem there - gangsters were, living and fighting completely free from police attention - but I didn't notice the trestle table merchants vanishing after 9/11, quite the reverse. On the following saturday I was down at Victoria Park, where those Al Mouj tossers had set up stall by the Royal Inn gate, and were loudly and joyfully shouting their support for the jihad, holding up newpaper front pages and telling all who passed that the jihad would come to London too.
Words were exchanged, as you might guess.
Sure, these people represent a minority of muslims - surveys say 8-13% - but why does the fact that it is a minority view mean that it isn't a dangerous view?
I'm not at all sure what all the recent crop of pro-muslim articles are trying to say - rather, I know what they are saying - that most muslims are law abiding and peacable - but I don't see why this is of any relevence. Everyone knows this. It's not the majority who are the problem - other than, they are the ones who are best placed to denounce, expose and isolate the minority. But they don't seem keen to do this - an article on this reluctance, this denial, might make more interesting reading."
So the ethnic cleansing of Cockney people from Walthamstow is hailed as something positive. Ken Livingstone would certainly think so, too.
"I have lived in Walthamstow for a short while in 2000. It is a diverse town with the majority of inhabitants muslim. There is a gerneral feelig of isolation - sort of removed from ""london life"". YOu get the feeling that this is on purpose, the muslim community does seem to isolate it self.
With regards to ""Not understanding the community"". I do not agree with this statement- I think it is the other way around and some parts of this community refuses to integrate.
Trevor Philips made a statement about a year go about - religious schools and organisations adding to the segretation for daily life in Britiain for some muslims.
Why is it up to this day - just in neigbhouring Tower Hamlets- in the Bengali community - there is high umemployment, women and some of the older generationthere still do not have a basic command of English.
The Local hospital there has to employ several bi lingual staff to deal with this problem.
Why is it in this day and age - communities such as th bengali community and the parkistani community refuse to allow their women to integrate and speak the english.
Their is a perception, that , if they do they will be "" tarnished"" with "" western poison"".
It is riduculous that they were allowed to behave like this . This is why we are seeing this radicalisation of young muslim men,They isolated themselves, and this problem has been compounded by their perception of "" western policy"". Bullocks!!!!!!!
They added to their problems by their self imposed segregation. And it is always someone else's fault! Well it is time that this community takesa long look at itself. I am fed up with the excuses!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
"I have lived in Walthamstow for a short while in 2000. It is a diverse town with the majority of inhabitants muslim. There is a gerneral feelig of isolation - sort of removed from ""london life"". YOu get the feeling that this is on purpose, the muslim community does seem to isolate it self.
With regards to ""Not understanding the community"". I do not agree with this statement- I think it is the other way around and some parts of this community refuses to integrate.
Trevor Philips made a statement about a year go about - religious schools and organisations adding to the segretation for daily life in Britiain for some muslims.
Why is it up to this day - just in neigbhouring Tower Hamlets- in the Bengali community - there is high umemployment, women and some of the older generationthere still do not have a basic command of English.
The Local hospital there has to employ several bi lingual staff to deal with this problem.
Why is it in this day and age - communities such as th bengali community and the parkistani community refuse to allow their women to integrate and speak the english.
Their is a perception, that , if they do they will be "" tarnished"" with "" western poison"".
It is riduculous that they were allowed to behave like this . This is why we are seeing this radicalisation of young muslim men,They isolated themselves, and this problem has been compounded by their perception of "" western policy"". Bullocks!!!!!!!
They added to their problems by their self imposed segregation. And it is always someone else's fault! Well it is time that this community takesa long look at itself. I am fed up with the excuses!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
"Thanks for this.
It is an insightful piece for all of us not from this area."
"The usual black middle class rubbish and disengenuity. Romanticisation of multi-culturalism, apologising for brown-skin terrorism and disdain for whites. All positioned as a progressive and timely critique of British society. If a member of the BNP wrote in the Guardian romanticising about mono-culturalism, apologised for white terrorism and expressed disdain for blacks and muslims, liberal bourgeoisie and intelligentsia would be in total uproar.
One rule for the black middle class and another for the white working-class. Welcome to the new racism comrades!"
"""It sounds like there was more than just trees in this wood of yours, what with all the bomb kits lying around.""
Yes, like all those bombs sticking out of Jean-Charles de Menezes's pockets, the cyanide bomb at Forest Gate, etc."
"So there was Forrest Gate and the ricin plot. Also, there is a trial going on right now of alleged British terrorists plotting to blow up night clubs and shopping centres in Britain. There is a pending trial of those attempting to blow up the Underground on 7/21. Another terrorist, the one who used his sock to clean gun barrels, was convicted last year of planning terrorism. British terrorists have carried out suicide bombings in Israel.
I wonder why we're a bit scared of terrorists?"
"Me no understand doctor. Where does the Government come into all this ? Aren't there enough subsidies for plays in Hampstead ?
PS I like that bit about diversity increasing when the natives moved out ..."
"People see what they want to see. Census websites and a short walk around are more illuminating.
Waltham Forest (which includes, Leyton, Leytonstone to the South and Highams Park and Chingford to the North) overall is ethnicaly classified as White (55.74%), Asian or Asian British Pakistani (7.92%) and both Black or Black British African and Caribbean (8.15% and 5.78% respectively).
Walthamstow is right in the middle and as Vanessa Walters points out, is diverse and ever changing.
Crudely put, non white numbers are higher towards south/central Walthamstow +Leyton and lower towards Chingford but there are pockets of everybody everywhere. The Pakistani community is biggest in parts of central to south Walthamstow and around Leyton.
The census indicates Walthamstow 'proper' as 24% Muslim - even assumming all were Pakistani _ which North African and Somali cafes suggest not, this does not - as I think Vanessa Walters is trying to say - mean Walthamstow is homogenously Pakistani, (or majority Muslim as Barbican angel suggested)
Parkbench - I think the figures suggest that indigenous working class whites are still the biggest single ethnic group in the town - and the biggest cause of cleansing is social not ethnic - with white middle class housebuyers from Islington and Hackney heading for the village and Lloyd park.
Barbicanangel - You're right that it is possible to isolate oneself from central London in walthamstow (and that is part of its charm) but it also attracts all sorts of people because of its convenient transport links (which were used by some of the named suspects for work and college)
Incidentally, the Walthamstow Pakistani community is more diverse than people think - you'll find a Pakistani Christian church if you look hard enough.
There is clearly no simple or single solution to the cocktail of sociological, class, generation gap, political and religious influences that is attracting some young Muslim men towards violence. (Arguably, you could blame 1st generation British Muslims indirectly for their insularity, male domination, obsession with ancestral villages, non- integration -as factors driving youngsters to english speaking extremists on the internet and in more cosmopolitan surroundings - but that is quite a complex argument -I think its impossible looking at the bewildered faces of some of the parents pictured on television in the last week, not to feel sympathy for some - whatever their kids are accused of doing?)
Simplistic media coverage and labels like Londonistan and Walthamstan only serve to obscure the complexitities at play as well as putting the backs up of older traditional Muslims who feel as though they are being targeted."
"AsifB- you have made some really valid points you alsp said it is complex problem
I do not see it this way......
In the beginning faith schools should dhave been limited ( not banned) as it only serves to isolate communities and children.
I agree may be past govenerments did not do enough to foster intergration, but this is a real opportunity now for the Muslim community to take and bring about this change themselves.
the solution has to com eform wiithin( have been reading philosphy recently!)
Peace"
"'We have a serious homegrown extremist problem and all the far left does is apologise, and make excuses for it.' :coldcall
The orthodox jewish community in north manchester is pretty insular and has a bizarre modus operandi ( from a western point of view). But apart from a slaggin' from young dickheads passing through it gets by 'ok' .
The muslim communities in coventry , manchester , etc were not a 'problem' in the 70's 80's and 90's .Now they're getting the 'thick murdering paddy' treatment the irish got for a few centuries . As an alternative to admitting what the real issues were.
No muslim bombers in british cities back in the 70's 80's 90's . Why now ?
It's not apologizing for or excusing the murder of innocent people on the tube to try and understand WHY some people from a previously peaceful community are starting to do this .
Or is Ali just the new Paddy .
If 'we' deliberately chose not to see WHY they are being radicalised - 'we' are setting ourselves up for another few decades of periodic but bloody reprisals.
At least til the oil (their fellow muslims are unfortunate enough to be sitting on) runs out.
It's the economy stupids ."
"Left wing novelists and playrights are not allowed to see Walthamistan. That's because novelists and playrights would not be able to sell any tickets and books if they admitted to such a view within such a rabidly anti-Blair community. The arts are nowhere to look of you want an honest opinion about anything happening in the world today. No one can write a play worth seeing. The Guardian says a play is fantastic, and when you go and see it, you realise that it was made especially for white people to go and get celebrated on diversity or whatever. If I want a political opinion, I won't ask for it from an artist, of whom 99% are flaming liberals. There is no diversity in the arts community so don't expect diversity of opinion from them. You can guess the opinion before the drawbridge even opens.
This person who writes plays lives in that neighborhood I guess. However, if you ask the indigenous population there who they would rather be neighbors with, they are more likely to pick Slovaks and Poles than Muslims. That's 100% accurate. But I'm not sure if you're allowed to point that out without being labeled racist, even though you and I know it's completely true. Let's face it, Slovaks are not blowing us up, and Slovaks are not turning our country into a place increasingly influenced by internal Muslim difficulties. Why are Slovaks and Poles not blowing up buses? They can't even speak English half the time! Hows that for alienation! It's not only Walthenistan, but its many cities in the UK that are going that route.
Let's stop kidding ourselves that Pakistani Muslims are going to assimilate."
Is it really that surprising that the Guardian would publish an article that bemoans the Government response to the very real and present threat of terrorism while offering absolutely no alternative solution to the problem? The main deficiency in Ms. Walters' piece is her failure to say anything. The only thing the piece succeeds in making clear is Ms. Walters own confusion about her identity. You can take the girl out of Walthamstan, but it seems that not even a priviliged middle class education can take the Walthamstan out of the girl. I'm sure those women and girls who were killed by the Taliban in Afghanistan for daring to seek an education appreciate the gesture of solidarity Ms. Walters, but exactly whose side are you on here?
Great article Vanessa. I'll never forget your heart rending piece from last year on the increasingly hopeless search for your friend Christian. Shame most of the replies are from ignorant twats. But then they need to balance out the Guardian's apologism for muslim, anti-western terrorism with their own apologism for christian, anti-poor people terrorism I suppose.
Thanks for the article Vanessa. Living in deep countryside in West Wales where ethnic minority means white English (only just a minority!) it is informative to get a vibrant description of a part of London that I do not know. I only regret that I can't get to London more frequently and thus be able to take in your play.
"Lebanon invasion: A step toward a regional war?
The dividing line between peace candidates and pro-war candidates is no longer opposition to the Iraq War - a view now held by large majorities of Americans. It is whether they oppose the pre-meditated destruction of Lebanon by Israel - with U.S. weapons, and oppose a first strike military attack on Iran. Israel's massive attack on Lebanon, resulting in the death of more than 1,100 civilians and destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure, was certainly not about the capture of two soldiers in a cross border incident. Rather, it was a pre-meditated attack about a broader vision of a Middle East dominated by Israel and the United States working together. Further, it may be part of a plan to attack Iran. The UN Security Council set a deadline of August 31 for Iran to stop its nuclear power program. Iran rejected the resolution saying it was legal for Iran to develop nuclear power. Does the upcoming escalation of the conflict between Iran and Israel/United States explain the timing of the massive attack on Lebanon? Did Israel act now to prevent a response from Hezbollah when Iran is attacked by Israel or the U.S.? Already, President Bush acknowledges the Lebanon conflict was a proxy war between Iran and the U.S.; time will tell whether it develops into a direct conflict. But if an attack on Iran does occur Israel's claim that is was responding to Hezbollah's ""terrorism"" will be even more clearly seen for what is was - akin to the manipulation of claims of alleged Iraqi weapons of mass destruction by the Bush Administration - an excuse to go to war. In fact, the cross-border incident that led to the attack on Lebanon, where two soldiers were captured, was part of an ongoing series of conflicts at the Israel-Lebanese border. The Christian Science Monitor reports: ""Since its withdrawal of occupation forces from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israel has violated the United Nations-monitored �blue line' on an almost daily basis, according to UN reports. Hezbollah's military doctrine, articulated in the early 1990s, states that it will fire Katyusha rockets into Israel only in response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians or Hezbollah's leadership; this indeed has been the pattern."" The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line ""on an almost daily basis"" between 2001 and 2003, and after that ""persistently"" including in 2006. They report that these incursions ""caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas."" Or as George Monbiot reports Hezbollah's action ""was simply one instance in a long sequence of small incursions and attacks over the past six years by both sides. So why was the Israeli response so different from all that preceded it? The answer is that it was not a reaction to the events of that day. The assault had been planned for months."" Further evidence that this reaction by Israel was premeditated is that fact that there is a long history of prisoner exchange between the Palestinians and Israel as well as Hezbollah and Israel dating back to 1948. In 2004 Israel released 436 prisoners in return for three Israeli soldiers and an Israeli intelligence officer. The prisoners included 400 Palestinians; 23 Lebanese; two Syrians; three Moroccans; three Sudanese; a Libyan; and a German Muslim. This time Israel reacted out of character and turned a border skirmish into an invasion with group punishment for Lebanese civilians. Israel presented its plans for destroying Lebanon to the Bush Administration a little more than a year ago, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. Israel's Lebanese plans were at the center of political discussions during the annual World Forum, organized by the neo-con American Enterprise Institute, on June 17th and 18th of 2006. There, Benjamin Netanyahu and Dick Cheney conferred at length, along with Richard Perle and Nathan Sharansky. The White House gave the green light for Israel's invasion a few days later. This is confirmed by the independent reporting of Sy Hersh in the New Yorker who wrote that the Bush Administration had been told of the plans long in advance of the capture of the Israeli soldiers. Hersh reports ""Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah-and shared it with Bush Administration officials-well before the July 12th kidnappings. �It's not that the Israelis had a trap that Hezbollah walked into,' he said, �but there was a strong feeling in the White House that sooner or later the Israelis were going to do it.'"" Further, this pre-meditated military assault on Lebanon - thorough and well-planned - is consistent with a plan put forward for Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996, ""A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm."" The strategy noted that the border with Lebanon was a problem that could be dealt with saying: ""Syria challenges Israel on Lebanese soil. An effective approach, and one with which American can sympathize, would be if Israel seized the strategic initiative along its northern borders by engaging Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran, as the principal agents of aggression in Lebanon."" The goal of the ""Clean Break"" plan was to remake the Middle East -- much like the Bush neo-con vision -- beginning with Iraq and then moving onto Syria and Iran. Noted writer on U.S. intelligence, James Bamford, reports in a July article, that planning for an attack on Iran has been going on for five years. He describes the close relationship between U.S. neo-cons and the pro-Israeli lobby, AIPAC, a relationship that has led to indictments. And he reports how the neo-cons see the current Lebanon attack as a next step. Bamford concludes his article saying: ""To [the neo-cons], the war in Lebanon represents the final step in their plan to turn Iran into the next Iraq. Ledeen, writing in the National Review on July 13th, could hardly restrain himself. �Faster, please,' he urged the White House, arguing that the war should now be taken over by the U.S. military and expanded across the entire region. �The only way we are going to win this war is to bring down those regimes in Tehran and Damascus, and they are not going to fall as a result of fighting between their terrorist proxies in Gaza and Lebanon on the one hand, and Israel on the other. Only the United States can accomplish it.'"" Hersh reports the Bush Administration supported Israel's plans to attack Hezbollah as a prelude to a U.S. or Israeli attack on Iran: ""President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney were convinced, current and former intelligence and diplomatic officials told me, that a successful Israeli Air Force bombing campaign against Hezbollah's heavily fortified underground-missile and command-and-control complexes in Lebanon could ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential American pre�mptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations, some of which are also buried deep underground."" An attack on Iran may lead to a regional war, but comments by American officials demonstrate the chaos of regional war may be welcome. As Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in a press briefing on July 21, 2006: ""What we're seeing here is, in a sense, the growing - the birth pangs - of a new Middle East, and whatever we do, we have to be certain that we're pushing forward to the new Middle East, not going back to the old one."" After months of beating a war drum for an attack on Iran around the issue of nuclear power and nuclear weapons, the Bush administration seems to have failed to garner enough support for this path to an attack. Perhaps after the August 31 UN deadline they will pound those drums louder, but it seems evident that the U.S. is trying to use Lebanon, and their allegations of close ties between Hezbollah and Iran, as another path to war with Iran. The so-called opposition party, the Democrats, are trapping themselves in a political corner where they will be unable to oppose an attack on Iran. The House of Representatives voted 410-8 in favor of Israel's war in Lebanon, a resolution that also ""condemns enemies of the Jewish state."" The Democrats, loyal to their funders from the hard right Israeli lobby, are cheer leading the attack on Lebanon and, sound like Bush when they discuss Iran as well. The defeat of Sen. Joe Lieberman is just one more signal that this November's elections are going against pro-war legislators. The anti-war movement needs to build on this momentum and not let an expansion of wars in the Middle East empower pro-war politicians. The timing of an attack on Iran, whether it is before or after the election - or whether it occurs at all - could depend in part on how well the anti-war movement organizes electorally. Anti-war voters need to make clear that they will resist these manipulations by refusing to support any politician who fails to actively oppose the Iraq quagmire, or other escalation of combat in the region. Those voters opposed to war should become committed peace voters and sign the VotersForPeace Pledge at www.VotersForPeace.org and build a fierce anti-war electoral movement which does not tolerate or protect pro-war incumbents from defeat this fall. The peace movement must prepare to rapidly turn escalation of hostilities into a political poison for pro-war politicians. It is time for the anti-war movement to put forward its vision for the future. A future that is based on multi-national, not unilateral, actions; one that is rooted in diplomacy and negotiation, not shock and awe and one built on stability and peace, not instability and chaos. For Israel the current path does not lead to peace or security. It must make peace with its neighbors - that begins with ending its occupation of Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian territories as well as the return of the thousands of political prisoners it holds. The success of Hezbollah in responding to the awesome, high tech military power of Israel, along with the success of the resistance in Iraq, should show the United States and Israel that the future is not in bombs and military force, but in multi-national diplomacy. Organized peace voters can drive that message home. Kevin B. Zeese is director of Democracy Rising (www.DemocracyRising.US) and a candidate for U.S. Senate in Maryland (www.ZeeseForSenate.org)"
What a parody of a clueless Guardianista luvvie's cluelessness.....blame the government, blame everyone, look at the fundamentalists selling Jihad tapes and berating her for her 'loose morals' as cuddly and positive people......for goodness sake.
"""From ridiculous ricin theories to fruitless raids in Forest Gate and a fatally flawed shooting, in the government's war on home-grown terror there has been an abject failure to see the wood from the trees.""
I'd agree with you there and I'd also agree that however inept the police's woodsmanship, there are indeed some bad trees in that thar wood.
""[islamic organisations] guiding them away from single motherhood, a life of crime or a mainstream culture from which they felt excluded.""
Is single motherhood now officially a Bad Thing in the lexicon of the left? I seem to remember the Mary Whitehouses of this world being howled down as misogynist and reactionary for saying exactly the same thing, back in the day. Is it cos they was ""mainstream""?
�At the time I was lucky enough to receive one of those now-obsolete government scholarships to a private girls' school in the centre of London.�
Ah, so the dreadful ""mainstream"" isn't that bad after all then?"
"Natasha Walters' cliched ridden article is a betrayal of what a genuine writers responsibility should be:to try and articulate fearlessly how the the way the modern multicultural world of London has come to be and that there may well be radical kinds of pathological alenation that go beyond her cliche ridden analysis that it is all to do with the poverty of the Islamic community in East London.Instead of intelligent analysis all we get is a series of meaningless trendy buzzwords that are designed to mollify the multicultural daydream of those for whom it has become a surrogate for the kind of global Utopianism represented by Communism.
If she can ""see no Walthamstan"" from where she lives,it is because she has maintained the unsupported assumption that all references to ""Walthamstan"" are necessarily racist because they refer to a ""homogenous"" Muslim community and have done so by conflating Islam with a race when it comes from white British people but never from enlightened multi-cult progressives such as herself.By this technique of pure evasion the way is clear to pin all responsibility on the governments foreign policy and poverty in a way that confirms everything that radical Islamists and the SWP blame extremism on. By so doing,you thereby open the gates for a radical and pathological alienation that is justified even when one of the logical consequences that is terrorism in the UK is not.Not least,when terrorism is in the eyes of crude post-Soviet demagogues like George Galloway wholly ""counter-productive"" but a de facto threat that you can use to ramp up the rhetoric about how fundamentally bloodsoaked,cruel,inherently sadistic and terroristic Tony Blair's foreign policy.
Walters' technique,therfore, takes on a sensationalistic mainstream media epithet at face value in oder to minimise the connection between terroristic proclivities and the total loathing that that certain puritanical power hungry Islamists see in the sinful and decadent world of outer darkness they see around them.The fact that certain Islamic preachers tied to convert her as she pounded out her snivelling and self-pitying victim complex as a poor white woman seems,funnily enough,not to have a ""dark side"".Nor does she seem to connect it with the Islamic experience of the ""death of God"" that Christian Europe went through in the early twentieth century and that produced the desire for political creeds that offered salvation through militant activism on behalf of ""The Party"" and that were founded on an affirmative group will-to-power.
In the early twenty first century Islam is going through a similar process in its connection with a largely secular Western Europe through the interrelated impact of post-colonial politics and Muslim immigration to large urban centres such as London,where they are surrounded by all manner of competing theologies of liberation,the most important being radical Islamism which,like communism,has all manner of offshoots but are connected by a millenarian idea that the aim of British Islam is first and foremost the emancipation of Muslims from Western oppression,something that acts as a catch all explanation for the condition of the Middle East and the social exclusion of Muslims from the mainstream life of European politics.
It does not follow that such ideas necessarily lead to the total cultural isolationism of those who are sympathetic to Al Qa'eda But is does nothing to evade the fact that many Islamists such as Soumaya Ghanoushi quite evidently feel an ideological schizophrenia towards Western civilisation and who see Britain as an essentially imperialist power that must be defeated by using Western post-colonialist Marxist strategies that views Western consumer decadence as founded on the manipulation of the Arab world in order to procure the cheap oil that makes this lifestyle possible.As such it offers a rationalisation for the political failures of Muslim politics across the Arab world and tells British Muslims that the Arab world will only be free through a Muslim popular front in Britain that demands that Britain plays no role at all in the Middle East,but that Muslims must develop a survival strategy within Britain that subverts its democracy to that one end.
It is in this context,that this broader movement foments the terroristic consciousness that we see in the Respect Movement and why it always qualifies its denuciations of terrorism in the UK with so-called ""explanations"" that rationalise it whether in Palestine or,by inference, to the Uk,rather than with unconditional support for democratic politics.It explains why Islamist commentators like Tamimi Azzam,Inayat Bunglawala, and Anas Altikriti always give a one dimensional support to Hamas and Hizbollah without bothering to mention how it has been in the interests of Syrian and Iranian power politics to subvert democracy in Lebanon for their own agenda and that its national self-determination is not seen important."
"Adolfo :""Quite honestly and without malice, a silly article written by a simpleton that is totally out of touch with the real situation in this country. She simply does not understand the hidden Muslim agenda. If we allow unchecked Islamic freedom it will cost us our liberty and way of life""
You argument is also simplistic.
There is a problem I agree, but youcannot say "" all muslims"" Your post is oozes rascism!"
"Several points in relation to alumrock's posting:
Firstly, the rhetoric of ""destroying"" ""erasing"" or ""eliminating"" an entire nation state has so far been used only by Iran and Syria. And given the Jewish community's experience of the Nazi ""uprooting"" and ghettoisation of their people in the run up to the Final Solution, I'd say they're wise to be worried about the resurgance of a similar political voice in the region. And wouldn't you rather have ""a Middle East dominated by Israel and the United States working together"" than one ruled by Syrian and Iranian prophets of destruction and apocalypse?
Secondly, what is Zeese trying to prove by hinging his argument on the claim that the attack was premeditated? Is it really such a surprise to think, shock, horror, gasp, that the military employ... strategists? What - you mean they don't just storm in hot-headed and start releasing bombs on a whim? Would Mr Zeese prefer that? Because I'm sure it could be arranged and a lot more civilians would be killed or displaced. And as for planning Iran for 5 years... Yes, you're right Mr Zeese, let's just walk in without a plan and just ask them to please stop it. Unfortunately I don't believe the Iranian population have an equivilent to votersforpeace.org. How about votersforaroguestateobtaininganuclearweapon.net?
I originally criticised Ms Walters for failing to make a point in her piece, but, in hindsight, perhaps she had the sense to realise that looking at the world through the spectacles of the left, all you can really do is sit around and pontificate while children starve and tyrants fortify their grip on the middle east. The age old dilemma of left sitting on the fence casting judgement but refusing to get its hands dirty to fix problems. Put up or shut up. And if you can't put up, do some good and start thinking about the complexities of the issues rather than trading in ill- considered leftist regurgitations."
I do not live in UK now, but have many relatives living in Walthemstow and visit the place once in a while. That is why I read Vanessa Walters Walthamstow story with great interest. All my relatives living there are peaceful people and I cannot imagine for a minute that any of them would ever involve themselves with terror or other extremist activity. However, they all live as if they are living in small towns of Pakistan with same attitudes and life style. If men enter the house, women sit in the small kitchens or bedrooms until these males depart. Once I attended a wedding ceremony. You know that Indian and Pakistani weddings stretch to more days and in one of the musical functions consisting of men and women singing songs, I get bored and asked one of my nephews and a cousin to just go out for a �beer�, since only Halal (Kosher) stuff is served in our �Muslim� family. (for that I have great respect) We went out and found a pub nearby. It was summer and we sat on the terrace of the pub. Suddenly we noticed that there were many young Muslims boys staring at us. There was a mosque not far from the pub. Slowly the group increased to half a dozen of bearded zealots. One of them came up to us and asked where we come from. M y companions got scared but I said to him why the heck does he want to know. �No�, he said, � We want to know if you are Muslims�. Now there we were in England (not in Iran or Pakistan) and scared stiff of having done something, which annoyed the �faithful�. We knew these S.O.Bs could beat us, the minute we left the pub. We sat there for about half an hour, facing our �Fundamentalist� fellow countrymen, until a police car passed by and we stopped it. The fundis got scared and dispersed. On our way home, we kept looking around if they followed us. It is nice to read Guardian and its liberal view of things. Obviously, this �peaceful living together� as described by Ms. Walters, has two sides. One is for the whites and much more ruthless side for those from within. I know if any of my relatives read this piece, I will not get any invitations in future. It has something to do with the phenomena that Muslims are incapable of criticizing their own behavior. I think we should be addressing issues such as why we are so far behind other minority groups such as the Chinese / Hindus when it comes to education and social mobility. I may be called a traitor, but the one who does not lie to �outsiders�.
"'If you are trying to say that this bacth of Extremism is all because of foreign policy since 9/11 then Im afraid you are sadly confused.' : coldcall
I stood out in the rain again this morning . I got wet. I deny any link between the two . Anybody suggesting the two are linked is 'sadly confused'.
Secondly, the British Muslims of the 70s would not have dared flare off in the UK, because in those days you still had BNP and racists beating up ""Pakis"" : coldplay
I used to live down the road from Southall for about 15 yrs( No,I'm not a muslim - like all religions it's whacky) .
The residents there would infrequently have to defend their community from the thugs and give the NF a good kickin' when it came calling . And it did so throughout the 70's and 80's and 90's .
Next day a white person could go for a curry with no fear for their safety based on their skin colour. They weren't blowing themselves up on tube trains either .
What's changed ?
Stay in denial sunshine . Keep lapping up the conditioning you're getting . They need cheeleaders for the imminent Iran campaign .
Or have a deep think about the UK/US armed robbery in Iraq (and Iran 1953) and join the grown ups in the real world."
"antropolog, well said. The 'Hate the Other' preachers reached out to other bloggers at CiF. Most days they would set up the same tired old clich�s - multiculturalism what a joke, extremists everywhere, community needs to sort itself out, Sharia law before tea time, blah blah - in front of any so called author - a.k.a ""apologist"" - that dared to even take a tiny, personal peek below the surface of stereotypes and scaremongering.
And god forbid if the author is a black person. Then the article must be, by definition, anti white.
Cool and white, they were in tune with some rosy tinted England of their lost youth. They usually don't bother even reading the articles, just look at the title, author and head straight to posting their rabid rantings - which actually make them hard to differentiate from the Islamic extremists they fear so much.
Quite honestly and without malice, silly comments written by simpletons that are totally out of touch with the real situation in this country. They simply does not understand the hidden agenda. If we allow unchecked Fear and Hate it will cost us our liberty and way of life."
Great post agitpapa, better than the original article!
"JABBATHEHUT: ""However, if you ask the indigenous population there who they would rather be neighbors with, they are more likely to pick Slovaks and Poles than Muslims. That's 100% accurate.""
My neighbour Don, from when I lived within a stone's throw of Queens Road mosque, was an 80-odd year old indigenous white 'Stower. He once told me that the street had improved no end ""since all the white families moved out. Their kids were a nightmare. The muslim kids understand respect for their families, and are much better behaved"".
So not 100% accurate. Oh, and you could have counted me out as well."
99.93% accurate then.
"The governments failed children - this happens everywhere in the country and has been for many years from what I understand! These social problems have been found in many urban area regardless of religion. These problems were also discussed in the 80's with urban regeneration and Thatcher appearing in the inner cities of the North East. Thinking about, when I walk around the city I live in, and others around the world, I still hear about the same sort problems regardless of religion.
There are difference I do hear about though, between the religions and the way in which people cope civil liberties.
If you convert to one of the evangelical (or extreamist) christian faiths you go to church bbqs and bother people on the street asking them if they have God in your heart or some other rubbish. They do not fly around in F16's blowing up people, strap explosives to themselves or plant bombs which take innocent lives. They also put their religion first, but have an acceptance that we live in a democratic state and that the freedoms we enjoy can only be maintained through democratic means, and suport the country in which they live in order to maintain these rights.
I would also say that about most of the Muslim people I have known too, they have taken care of me and supported me - accepting who I was as a person (gay, white and non-religous). They have spoken against these terrorsit plots, and taken as much political notice as the majority of the country. They also acceptanced that we live in a democratic state and that the freedoms we enjoy can only be maintained through democratic means, and suport the country in which they live in order to maintain these rights.
Muslim extreamists on the other hand, appear to want to live in an Islamic world and seek death for all non-believers. They kill in a cowardly way, hidding explosives on themselves and carrying out the orders of there leaders who tell them they can not do this, Allah having more important plans for them. What about the 30 something who just blew himself up - he could have done more on this planet being alive and working towards tollerance of others, rather than their death.
He could work towards showing people the muslim community is supported within this country, with state school having a Hala kitchen, headscarfs in schools and staff allowed paid leave for Ede and not time taken from their usual holiday entitlement."
"""At the time I was lucky enough to receive one of those now-obsolete government scholarships to a private girls' school in the centre of London, which gave me a horizon beyond my own circumstances.""
I am curious about this: there has never been such thing as a 100% ""government scholarship"" for private schools.
It also seems quite a remarkable coincidence that such a disproportionate number of people in 'the media' have been to a private school. Of those who are good enough to let us know this, rather a lot seem to have received one of these nebulous scholarships.
Sorry for being personal, but class envy dies hard! Particularly when so many 'bog-standard' school boys and girls could do so much better."
Walters' Walthamstan-over-view as was prevailing then, is quite intersting. Instead of preaching morality from behind tables/desks from streets side, those good muslim clerics should have seen to it that every girl-child in every muslim family was sent to modern schools and given higher educatio- n in the colleges. If Bin Laden's mother also had a univers- ally prevailing modern education there would have been no Al Qaida. A woman educated, is equal to one whole family educated, that was Mahatma Gandhi's postulate. Even now it is too late for the imams and other guardians of Islam to permit universal modern education for their women and lift the stay indoors and in "Burka" Fatwa. In one gener -ation we will see a modern generation of that community taking the 21st century forward along with rest of the world. Of course the imams and would have lost in the bar- gain but the community would gained immensely. My many muslim friends agree with this, but they would not like to cross swords with the contractors of their religion.
"Easterman, whilst I agree with much of your analysis of the ME,I find that it is generally undermined by your one eyed view,vis a vis everything being the fault of the UK/USA whilst never seeming to ackowledge the roles that,for example,Russia and the Soviet Union,France,and Germany have played in the region.And it is also undermined by your arrogance towards anyone who might not agree with your view,so that you get peoples hackles up and end up preaching to the converted,a generally pointless exercise,but one which many people posting here seem to enjoy.You would be far better conceding a point or two rather than just,metaphorically,shouting down the opposition. However,today you seem to contradict yourself.If,as you so frequently say the ME has been exploited for 90 years or more then...
""Next day a white person could go for a curry with no fear for their safety based on their skin colour. They weren't blowing themselves up on tube trains either .So what's changed?""
Well firstly the disaffected asian youth of today were mainly born here and in many cases are second generation Britons.To relate it to the Irish,as you inevitably do,the original immigrants came for economic reasons and were prepared to put up almost anything to stay here.Future generations,considering themselves to have as much right to live here as anyone else,were prepared to put up with a lot less.I'm sure you're personally only too aware of that fact.Unlike the progeny of Irish immigrants,asian youths cannot seamlessly blend in the with general,white,population and so their feelings of alienation and confusion are magnified.Despite being born here they feel like strangers in a strange land.Generally,a minority of alienated youth turn to religion to find meaning and direction in their lives,and this has been exploited by a small group of Islamist preachers and activists.Once,like the Irish,Italians and Jews they might have turned to political activism,but politics amongst asian communities remains a still,small voice in comparison to religion,primarily because there has been no Islamic Enlightement.
So,to cut a long story slightly shorter - it's rather more complex than just being the economy,stupid.Relating this disaffection solely to events in the ME,especially when most Asians in this country are Pakistani or Bangladeshi,will not do them any favours in the long run.Religion may have it's positive side,but it will not solve their,or anyone else's problems,if it could we would already be living in a perfect world.For British Muslims to pretend that there is a worldwide Muslim brotherhood is self defeating when Muslims are killing fellow Muslims throughout the world.Britons of Pakistani origin have more in common with other Britons than they do with Iraqis,or especially Iranians,who generally view them as the British did the Irish.Unless you're prepapred to argue that Irish catholics have more in common with Philppino catholics than they do with Irish protestants.
And just to reiterate - I did not support the US invasion of Iraq,although the Iraqi and Iranian ex-pats that I spoke to all did."
"SharifLone: I thought your post was excellent. You might be encouraged to know that I heard an Imam of a mosque in Sheffield espouse similar sentiments (in public) recently.
JabbaTheHut: I'm sure you have conducted in-depth research among the denizens of the Stow, and are not in fact a silly little bigot."
"""I stood out in the rain again this morning . I got wet. I deny any link between the two . Anybody suggesting the two are linked is 'sadly confused'.""
Easterman still smugly trotting out the same old lines then.
O course, there's nothing remotely original in pointing this causality as he seems to think. However, he refuses to acknowledge that the only way to try and change our foreign policies is via the ballot box.
He hates democracy and the West you know, although he's never offered a better proposal."
Shariflone (12.31 PM) : Very good post, if guys like you ran the MCB, we'd avoid most of the current problems. I like the way you combine love and respect for both your roots and for Britain. Good luck, get involved in politics man!
"why are the only ""cool"" people referred to in this article eitehr islamic extremists or muslims in traditional dress.
what is cool about wanting to live in the 7th century ?"
"Coldcall,
Lets expand on this, and I'm sure this won't be a popular viewpoint here, but here goes....
I have come accross what might be best termed as 'Jew envy' in the Muslim community, I am not alone in this, in fact I have read in calmer times (before 9/11 etc) pieces written by thoughtfull Muslims expressing the same sentiments (and no I cannot supply references I'm afraid, but I wasn't dreaming).
Some (and I hope a small minority but reading these posts and poll numbers I am not so sure) claim Jews run the media/the US government/the IMF/fill in the blank, yet they represent less than 0.2 % of the world's population compared to Muslims who comprise around 20-25% of the worlds population and run, well theres the rub.
And of course its not just the Jews, other groups such as the Chinese and non-Muslim Indians continue to do well in ex-patriate communities, but the Jews are the most conspicuous as 'overacheivers'.
Rather than look in the mirror and wonder how they can positively improve things there seems to be a tendency for some Muslims to blame others and not take responsability. It is sad that I will have to add all the usual caveats that it is a huge generalisation I am making and that there are external circumstances etc etc, but there are/have been for every group of immigrants to the UK, not least the Jews.
I am not claiming the Jews are better people than Muslims, far from it, people are people, but given the centuries of oppression and pogroms they faced in Europe they seem to be able to get on with life without displaying victimhood as a badge of honour (and again I am sure some do but it doesn't seem to be a general tendency).
I am patronising, generalising and generally comitting every sort of thought crime possible but I believe what the vast majority of British people are looking for (not the Guardian readers) is just a chink of self-awareness and self-help, not from the ordinairy Muslim but from their proclaimed leaders."
Dear *coldcall* very thoughtful comments, keep it up!
"Save us, O Lord, from the ""they can't help it/they were driven to it/the government has failed them"" brigade in the shape of this woman. O Lord PLEASE, if you are listening, send this lot some leaders who are capable of taking responsibility for the actions of their communities and putting their own house in order!
And Coldcall, you are right. Really interesting is that however persecuted Jews feel there is rarely the sort of self-pity and projected hatred exhibited by muslims. Instead they work at turning things around. And in spite of the persecution they flourish and contribute :
Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 00.02% of the world population...
They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
Literature: 1910 - Paul Heyse 1927 - Henri Bergson 1958 - Boris Pasternak 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 1966 - Nelly Sachs 1976 - Saul Bellow 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 1981 - Elias Canetti 1987 - Joseph Brodsky 1991 - Nadine Gordimer World
Peace: 1911 - Alfred Fried 1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 1968 - Rene Cassin 1973 - Henry Kissinger 1978 - Menachem Begin 1986 - Elie Wiesel 1994 - Shimon Peres 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin
Physics: 1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 1906 - Henri Moissan 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 1910 - Otto Wallach 1915 - Richard Willstaetter 1918 - Fritz Haber 1921 - Albert Einstein 1922 - Niels Bohr 1925 - James Franck 1925 - Gustav Hertz 1943 - Gustav Stern 1943 - George Charles de Hevesy 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 1952 - Felix Bloch 1954 - Max Born 1958 - Igor Tamm 1959 - Emilio Segre 1960 - Donald A. Glaser 1961 - Robert Hofstadter 1961 - Melvin Calvin 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 1965 - Julian Schwinger 1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 1971 - Dennis Gabor 1972 - William Howard Stein 1973 - Brian David Josephson 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 1976 - Burton Richter 1977 - Ilya Prigogine 1978 - Arno Allan Penzias 1978 - Peter L Kapitza 1979 - Stephen Weinberg 1979 - Sheldon Glashow 1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown 1980 - Paul Berg 1980 - Walter Gilbert 1981 - Roald Hoffmann 1982 - Aaron Klug 1985 - Albert A. Hauptman 1985 - Jerome Karle 1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach 1988 - Robert Huber 1988 - Leon Lederman 1988 - Melvin Schwartz 1988 - Jack Steinberger 1989 - Sidney Altman 1990 - Jerome Friedman 1992 - Rudolph Marcus 1995 - Martin Perl 2000 - Alan J. Heeger
Economics: 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 1971 - Simon Kuznets 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 1976 - Milton Friedman 1978 - Herbert A. Simon 1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 1985 - Franco Modigliani 1987 - Robert M. Solow 1990 - Harry Markowitz 1990 - Merton Miller 1992 - Gary Becker 1993 - Robert Fogel
Medicine: 1908 - Elie Metchnikoff 1908 - Paul Erlich 1914 - Robert Barany 1922 - Otto Meyerhof 1930 - Karl Landsteiner 1931 - Otto Warburg 1936 - Otto Loewi 1944 - Joseph Erlanger 1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman 1953 - Hans Krebs 1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann 1958 - Joshua Lederberg 1959 - Art hur Ko rnberg 1964 - Konrad Bloch 1965 - Francois Jacob 1965 - Andre Lwoff 1967 - George Wald 1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg 1969 - Salvador Luria 1970 - Julius Axelrod 1970 - Sir Bernard Katz 1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 1975 - Howard Martin Temin 1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg 1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow 1978 - Daniel Nathans 1980 - Baruj Benacerraf 1984 - Cesar Milstein 1985 - Michael Stuart Brown 1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein 1986 - Stanley Cohen (& Rita Levi-Montalcini) 1988 - Gertrude Elion 1989 - Harold Varmus 1991 - Erwin Neher 1991 - Bert Sakmann 1993 - Richard J. Roberts 1993 - Phillip Sharp 1994 - Alfred Gilman 1995 - Edward B. Lewis
The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets, yelling and chanting and asking for revenge.
The Jews are not promoting brain washing their children in military training camps.
The Jews are not teaching their children how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims.
The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics.
The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.
The Jews don't have the economic strength of petroleum, nor the possibilities to force the world's media to see ""their side"" of the question.
Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the world population...
They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
Literature: 1988 - Najib Mahfooz.
Peace: 1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat 1994 - Yaser Arafat
Physics: 1990 - Elias James Corey 1999 - Ahmed Zewail
Medicine: 1960 - Peter Brian Medawar 1998 - Ferid Mourad
Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems."
Schlomit - Good list, but you're missing Pinter in literature, although it's a bit cheeky to include Kissinger for the Peace Prize isn't it, 'Irony is Dead' and all that ...
"Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems. : slummit
Perhaps they would if they weren't forced to share the bulk of their oil and their land with parasites .
Iran would be a different place today without the US/UK installation of the shah in 1953 ."
"easterman, And what's the excuse pre-1953, I'm sure you can come up with one.
Oh and how much oil does Israel/'The Jews' have?
Think positive, at least they have something to share, forced or otherwise."
Why not discuss male circumcision? It's just as much genital mutilation and as female genital mutilation. In the vast majority of cases it too is performed on the victim without his consent.
"Shlomit: some of those jewish prize winners may be jewish to you, but they weren't to themselves. Richard Feynmann for one objected to being categorised as a jew. The belief that someone never stops being a jew is common to both jews and antisemites.
Coldcall: there is jewish envy, I think, among others- not just muslims. If you take a look at some antisemitic opinions they ascribe to jews all sorts of admirable virtues that their own- usually ""aryan""- preferred races pught to exhibit but don't. I don't think that Israel's policies cause antisemitism; i think people feel ethey can express already existing antisemitic views. There's also a conviction that there are many times as many jews as there are in Britain."
"""Why not discuss male circumcision? It's just as much genital mutilation and as female genital mutilation. In the vast majority of cases it too is performed on the victim without his consent.""
Because the only thing the two have in common are the area of the body they relate to."
"nortel-""Why not discuss male circumcision? It's just as much genital mutilation and as female genital mutilation. In the vast majority of cases it too is performed on the victim without his consent.""
Quite so-in the name of a religion children are mutilated and scarred for life. What is the purpose of this sadistic assault? It is an outrage, and should be outlawed...but that would mean offending those of a religious persuasion...including some of the people who delight in the persecution of women, the indocrination of young minds, the fight against human rights, and the abolition of free speech."
My post which referenced the dignity and wisdom of Archbishop of York, John Sentanu(originally from Nigeria) who is fasting for peace seems to have dissapeared, not sure why, nothing didgy in it,
In the USA where I am currently based male circumcision has nothing to do with religion in the vast majority of cases, it is done for health and/or aesthetic reasons. Female circumcision is done to subjugate women, it has no other purpose as it has no health or aesthetic benefits.
"Othello, Nortel:
You need to educate yourselves about clitoridectomy, infibulation, and other forms of female genital mutilation before you make false comparisons with male circumcision -- a practice which may be distaseful to you, but which does not eclipse sexual pleasure or have lifelong health and reproductive consequences. If, after reading the literature on the subject you still feel they are somehow equivalent, than you reveal that you believe men of all faiths to be so much more human and deserving of physical and sexual integrity than (primarily Muslim) women. Which is the essence of the problem in the first place."
"Easterman, I refer you to my post at 3:13pm.If you wish to convince people of your argument you really should try typing something other than UK/US.For a change try USSR,China and France.
And rather than sharing their oil I think you'll find that they're selling it,unless of course you are accessing your supplies through Kazaa.If they want to charge a higher price I'm perfectly willing to pay it,I personally think the developed world is far too rich and the undeveloped far too poor and I'd be only too happy to pay more for my computer,cds,mp3 player,tv,dvd player,dvds,fuel and all other oil based products.I hope you would be too.
Incidentally,I wasn't aware that ""they"" are sharing the bulk of their land with anyone.Does that mean that indigenous english christians are sharing their land with the likes of you and me?And if so,is it on a timeshare basis?"
"Thompson:""You need to educate yourselves about clitoridectomy, infibulation, and other forms of female genital mutilation before you make false comparisons with male circumcision -- a practice which may be distaseful to you..."" I object to it on moral and medical grounds. When performed on perfectly healthy infants for religious reasons, or where there is NO medical case for doing so, it is a disgrace act. I suggest that the parents who willingly and deliberately mutilate their children's genitalia are the ones who need to read up on the subject.
""If, after reading the literature on the subject you still feel they are somehow equivalent, than you reveal that you believe men of all faiths to be so much more human and deserving of physical and sexual integrity than (primarily Muslim) women. Which is the essence of the problem in the first place"" I believe men AND women should not have to suffer genital mutilation to satisfy their parents bizarre religious beliefs, where there is absolutely NO medical necessity. NEEDLESS circumcision, either male OR female is abhorant and amounts to wanton cruelty and child abuse."
"Nortel:
On the health front: male circumcision decreases the risk of contracting HIV by up to 60 per cent; FGM significantly increases a woman's risk of contracting HIV. Considering that there are currently 38.6 million people worldwide infected with HIV, decreasing a risk of HIV seems to be a valid argument for male circumcision and a bad one for FGM.
FGM also puts women at a significantly higher risk of death during childbirth/miscarriage, where it places no such risks on men.
On the pleasure front: The circumcised men, of all faiths, who I have had contact with seemed to enjoy sex with equal enthusiasm and lack of inhibition. But considering the role of the clitoris in female orgasm, I doubt the same could be said for women who have been clitoridectomised and/or infibulated. Many of them report intercourse to be painful and uncomfortable, and they have to be literally cut open or torn open for it to even occur.
But don't be lazy, just do the research yourself."
"Vanessa - well done, and I hope you can see through your rose coloured specs once everything gets steamy.
By all means be at ease in a situation you see nothing wrong in, but don't try to sell it to people who are very worried indeed about Muslims refusing to see the part they could and should play in stopping this madness. I am one of these people, and I find your op-ed fatuous to the extreme.
Look at Sir John Stevens' excellent article in the News of the World online - we should all wake up."
Vanessa, a cool list of nobel prize winners, a round of applause and a conversation about cocks. it is most assuredly time for horlicks :)
"Shlomit
Great list! Great individuals, many fine human beings I am sure, but what are you insinuating? That you are the master race! Do you see any similarity between the way you argue your case and someone we know from ww2?
Perhaps you need to educate yourself by doing some research on Islamic/ eastern scholars and achievements but don�t confine it to one hundred years."
"No politics just fine management and kindness - that is what the planet needs now.
It is not as far away than you all think.
If Israel had helped her neighbours, and not stolen land, then there would have been a peaceful Middle East.
I speak as a Jew"
"Here's pictures of the Walthamstow mosque where eight of the terror suspects worshipped:
http://www.moonbatmedia.com/mosqueofterror/"
"parsi, no insinuations if anything shlomit was just trying to prove that he doesn't like muslims, that's all, however, his frothy conclusion was made completely irrelevant by the lovely lists he kindly provided.
'No politics just fine management and kindness', a very nice one to end the night jackscott:)"
parkbench: I'm amazed at the speed your site comes up and the clarity of the photos Nevertheless Walthamstow seems much improved from the days when the only place worth visiting was the Plough and Harrow.
"They get the ""Immigrant Supermen Are Our Superiors"" headlines in the Independent and Guardian.
Well, I suppose that should be ""Immigrant Supermen Are Your Superiors"" headlines addressed to the working class...
However, they are yet to have their areas declared ""vibrant"", so perhaps we can do that to give them an ego boost."
"Shurely the economic miracle that is immigration will expand the local tax base more than amply? Think of all the tax on minimum wage jobs and council tax on HMOs! Enough shurley to provide all the schools and hospitals, roads and refuse collections AND pay for our old age pensions?
Or was that just government propaganda to mask a situation they were unable to do anything about?"
"_AT_Ros ""The presenter, Tim Samuels, spent much of the documentary in Gdansk and Peterborough, where the Polish community is now big enough to boast its own website.""
Ros, everybody has their own website. I have my own website and there's only one of me.
Believe me, having a website is no longer any indication of anything's popularity, size or population."
"""the cheap labour that helps the economy prosper""
Replace 'economy' with 'rich'."
"I just felt sorry for the poor sods having to live in Peterborough.
The cheap labour does not help the economy prosper, it enables the divide between rich and poor to increase."
"It was a great show, and made the locals who didn't want to work look pretty bad! Good column too, except for the boring line about ""Whitehall's reluctance to acknowledge that a city hosting thousands of newcomers will need more doctors, more schools and, if they are to integrate into British society, English lessons.""
Is it just possible that it's difficult for government to respond to the utter transformation of a town overnight? The reflexive ""Whitehall has a moral failing"" line is repeated in 90% of CIF articles. It's so journalistic, and adolescent. I hope that if she's writing a book on this subject she'll treat government officials as human beings who do a hard job and have to put out 50 forest fires a day while also trying to plant new trees. The assumption behind this column is that they're omniscient, but lazy."
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity I don't understand what point you are making. But local taxes only pay for a 1/4 of local government spending, so when large numbers of immigrants arrive and put huge strains on local services the government needs to increase its funding to that area, something it currently doesn't do.
I'm still unsure about the economics of immigration in a country with free-at-the-point-of-use state funded services. Does the tax paid on minimum wage crop picking jobs cover the cost of those additional services, not to mention translators, or child benefit payments? Clearly its good for the farmer employing them, but does that mean we all benefit from cheaper food or just mean bigger profits for the farmer? How many of the Polish children being educated here will stay and pay taxes for the rest of their lives as opposed to going back to Poland once they've had an education?"
Deleted by moderator.
"`threatening Britain's goodwill towards the cheap labour that helps the economy prosper`
Year 2008 - and this is the Guardian - the Guardian - the paper that told you not to vote for Mrs. Thatcher in 1979 - coming out with this.
The Poles are fine people and we can learn a lot from them. But you don`t solve the problems of your own country by simply replacing the locals as `not up to the required standards` by superior outsiders. I always thought the most important thing about a country - any country - was its people. I guess I`m old-fashioned. For our rulers, (and this newspaper) it is clearly its economy. It`s better to have a prosperous area known as the UK inhabited by Poles, Nigerians, Pakistanis et al than it is to have prosperity for genuine British people."
"Since we're talking economics, I've yet to hear a good economic reason why we needed a Polish invasion. In the '50s when we had a large influx from the colonies, we had a dire shortage of key workers. That isn't the case now. Some cite plumbers and dentists but the vast majority who've come here have taken jobs we were already able to fill quite adequately. (It's a little off to mock the working class for not wanting to pick fruit when they've been squeezed out of everything else.)
I've heard politicians pretend on Question Time that we have no choice with EU migrants but in fact in this case we did. We could have done what most other EU countries did and deferred the entry of any Polish workers till 2011. Then they would have had entry to all EU countries, they'd have spread out and we'd have taken a much more manageable amount.
So why are they here? Is our labour market a charity for depressed former Warsaw Pact countries? The reason is actually that our government, in an example of gross incompetence, underestimated the amount who would come here by about a factor of 10. Maybe that little fact should be included in the Pole-welcoming festivities. ""Hey, you're here because our government can't run a piss-up in a brewery but since you are, have a beer!"" :)"
"""The fault lines in a city like Peterborough are abundantly clear. Most of them arise from Whitehall's reluctance to acknowledge that a city hosting thousands of newcomers will need more doctors, more schools and, if they are to integrate into British society, English lessons.""
For the very simple reason if they did their sums like this then it would be a bit difficult to claim that ""migrants contribute x billion a year"" in the newspapers. Tony Blair increased the population by over two million people in the last decade (that we know) of. Now if these 2 million have contributed enough to build, maintain and run 6 cities the size of Bristol from nothing in the last decade and give a surplus back, then that would have been a contribution. I deeply doubt this.
Migrants have added to GDP, but since they are overwhelmingly low-paid then the liabilities are almost certainly higher than the contribution. GDP per capita aka ""wealth"" might very well have gone into reverse at the same time as the economy is expanding.
This is the real reason the government love house-price inflation so much, because it's made us ""wealthier"" on paper and can ignore the rest. For example that average disposable income has been falling since 2005.
It's a bit difficult to win an election if you've made people poorer on your watch, which is what will become abundantly clear very shortly as the bubble bursts."
Deleted by moderator
"Miminum wage and casual labour jobs such as fruit and veg picking are great for immigrants, students and others who fancy a bit of a working ""holiday"".
They are useless for young adults with or wishing to start families and/or buy a home."
"""the local youth complained that Poles were taking their jobs but turned down the opportunity to pick butternut squash for £7 an hour. Let's hope the £60m Alistair Darling announced today to equip the jobless for the workplace prepares them for a job they find more congenial""
The anti working class presenter mockingly says at this point ""doesn't this make you proud to be British""
Actually, Tim/Ros I don't give to hoots about being British. I am international Socialist.
However it does make me proud to be working class.
Refusing top work for pitiful wage is a sign of the innate class consciousness of working class in this geographical entity, a working class that gave us the Chartists, the levellers, one of the first Labour parties, trade unions, socialist suffragettes, the vote, the welfare state etc.
Ros and Tim's right to be smug is built on their [and other] sacrifices.
I hope that Poles regain the industrially militancy they were once famous for.
So tim/Ros stop attempting to divide working class people and become part of the solution, support a Migrant workers bill, full employment and a return to a more regulated laboutr marget.
PS teh London living wage campaign is for £7/hr - a campaign lead by migrant labourers."
"And I thought I'd spell checked it!
Long live Bill gates."
"_AT_wolfiesmith
I'm not enamoured of the Polish influx myself, for the economic reasons others have given on this thread, but I don't think its fair to attack the personal behaviour of Poles like that. Is it not likely that they are just as mixed a bunch as any other nationality and you've just been unlucky? Anyway, my experience is of having English neighbours, fond of playing loud music all day and night (often the same song played on repeat over and over again for 20 hours), being replaced by a bunch of Poles who never make a sound, presumably because they are out working 20 hours a day."
"""""Hey, you're here because our government can't run a piss-up in a brewery but since you are, have a beer!""
Actually that's pretty much my attitude.
Considerably healthier than ""Hey, you're here because our government can't run a piss-up in a brewery so let's kick you in the teeth and blame you for all the evils in the land."""
"This puzzles me..many British folk, for the past few years, have been practically jumping up and down shouting ""We're having problems here!""
And during these past few years..the Guardian has written numerous whataboutry pieces, with regards to the economic benefits, with scant recognition of the very real issues concerning integration, both on a public service level and sociological level.
So now, after people have been shouting long and hard ( with various accusations of xenophobia and racism thrown at them for doing so ), when these problems are finally getting a bit of recognition..suddenly up pops the blanket term of ""us Brits""!? As if we've all been uniformly ignoring it ( like the Guardian has been doing for the most part - save the occasional caveat piece to keep the mob happy )
Then, for the icing on the cake, the assertation that the 'mob' is too busy worrying about pledges to the queen, to worry about the effect that immigration has had on public services and integration!
Peter Mandelson would purr reading this."
Welcome Poles, and we want you here, even if it is only to increase our lebensraum and fill up The Wash with unused onions. We care little that you pickle our alsatians and defile our grandmothers. We are amused that Peterborough Cathedral's masonry has been unpicked, and its stones turned into mounting steps, so you can ride the thoroughbred stallions you have stolen, as you jaunt off to endless parties in Wookey Hole. We look forward to offering you sherbet and secular alternatives to your fanciful Papistry. As to taxation, Mr Darling overlooked the Pole Tax this time round, but next year, if you are still diminishing the stocks of vodka from Morrison's shelves, it will be tuppence a head per diem in perpetuity, and a red rose at Michaelmas. If you like this land so much, it only proves that the British have got some matters right like keeping coal fresh in plastic bags. But we do demand decent beetroot recipes in return.
"AllyF
wrote
GBR """"Hey, you're here because our government can't run a piss-up in a brewery but since you are, have a beer!""
Actually that's pretty much my attitude.
Nice one one of my faverite lines."
I agree with the bloke who said that the natives of Peterbourgh didn't exactly cover themselves in glory last night.
Theprimacyofclass lauds the bristish working class' refusal to work for low wages as a sign of their innate class consciousness. Sadly it's more likely to be due to their not being _AT_rsed. And if they're not out there unionising the squash pickers and demanding a living wage, who is? just a question.
"""and where the local youth complained that Poles were taking their jobs but turned down the opportunity to pick butternut squash for £7 an hour. Let's hope the £60m Alistair Darling announced today to equip the jobless for the workplace prepares them for a job they find more congenial""
The ungrateful proles turning their nose up at a shite job for a shite wage. How long would that last paying your mortgage in Islington/Holland Park/Primrose Hill Ros? You just sit tight Ros, you won't be short of butternut squash for your diiner parties, global capitalism has the answer.
Social consequence for the proles? Ah, remember the good old days of empire when we could use them as cannon fodder AND were they grateful?!"
"Your problems are not so much with the Polish immigrants as with the Polish immigrants who are poor and too plentiful.
In Brussels we also have an influx but, at the top end of the scale, the immigrants are diplomats, MEPs and Commission officials. No one complains about them. Unfortunately immigration, as with so much else, is a class/money thing."
"_AT_AllyF 16.13: I agree, there is no place for hating those who are doing the economically rational thing for themselves and their families.
When it comes to angry mob time, pointy sticks should be sharpened for the unholy alliance of capitalist running dogs and liberal-lefties who, together, have brought about the whole sorry mess.
I am particularly annoyed at the large part of the British left that has worked so hard to load up the British workers with rights such as shorter working hours, higher salaries... and now fawns over foreign workers for their willingness to work longer hours for less money. If they wanted British workers to work like the current crop of Poles they should have said so from the start."
"formerlefty Comment No. 1194178 March 12 16:07 GBR _AT_wolfiesmith
Dear formy leftie, my comment has been deleted I see. I was just speaking from experience. I may have been unlucky but, it this type of action that creates problems.
Deleting my post by the moderator does not erase my experience or my neighbours that is a fact. The truth remains. By putting rose tinted glasses on, it does not solve the issues of a large influx over a short period of time and the problems it causes. lets have a balenced approach to the issues, I do not like seeing migrants exploited for cheap labour or the UK taking the best workers either from the EU or the rest of the world and hindering thier long term development."
"One of the saddest comments on the BBC site is from a local fenlander:
""I'm English and I live in Lincolnshire and I know lots of people who struggle to find a job that is even at min-wage for a good 40hrs a week.
If someone was to offer me a job for 7 pounds an hour picking up vegatables I would be in my work clothes right away no matter who the employer is.""
He goes on to suggest that the BBC deliberately sought out people who didn't want to work."
"Could be worse. There was some letter writer in the Indy yesterday going on about.... wait for it.... Polonophobia!
God help us and save us, as they say in Gdansk."
"Theloonyfromcatford
If you saw the programme, fruit pickers earn £7 an hour, working 10 hour days, 6 days a week (roughly £1680 a month), one of the poles claimed to earn £2000 a month as a forklift driver. These Polish guys are grafters, and I can't blame them for wanting to do better for themselves. Unfortuneately this doesn't help our social infrastructure. the MPs making these decisions live in gated communities with private healthcare, so they aren't experiencing 1st hand the problems they have created!
It should be made policy that the layabout ""can't get out of bed"" dole spongers should either take these jobs when offered to them or lose their benefits. These British spongers need to take a leaf from the Poles' work ethic! If more of the Unworking class got off of their backsides their wouldn't be vacancies for work, the Poles wouldn't come - problem solved!"
"_AT_ChasnDave
60 hours a week, 6 days a week is fine for students and as aworking holiday.
Sure, I'd do 60 hours, 6 days a week in OZ for a few moths and spend my wages on booze and birds, surfing and cheap digs by the sea.
Not a viable option for a long term career and family life, for me personally."
Gdansk, is that the same place as Danzig? I'm a bit out of touch these days.
"The BBC coverage of this has made me sick.
The accompanying web article to this programme tried to claim that locals were turning down the opportunity to earn £25,000 a year. Now, perhaps my maths is deficiant, but at £7 an hour I calculate you'd have to work nearly a 70 hour week to earn that much. Even assuming overtime is paid at time-and-a-half you're still looking at doing 9 hours of heavy labour six days a week in order to make what is probably about the minimum salary a family could survive on. And that neglects the fact that this kind of work is highly seasonal and so it's completely ludicrous to extrapolate earnings at peak seson to an annual salary.
This whole spin that the BBC seems to be taking, along the lines that ""aren't immigrants wonderful doing all this labour ten hours a day without so much as tea break so that we can decently priced butternut squash, while those dreadful, lazy English proles sit around drinking beer"" has a positively Dickensian ring to it. And this isn't the Daily Telegraph or the Daily Mail we're talking about here, it's the BBC! What is becoming of this country..."
"Donge,
Yes it is. Danzig is the German name - it was a German city before WWI."
"_AT_ GavP - Relax, what did you expect? This is an organisation that when looking at issues facing contemporary white working class Britain/ England felt the ideal way to go about it was to interview Nick Griffen and commission a programme on Enoch Powell. You could argue that they are totally out of touch with the people they were trying to cover or, that their agenda was slightly more sinister.
Either way brother, I'll repeat my question, what did you expect?
Just as an aside, is it just me or is the famously 'liberal' BBC and Guardian starting to sound more & more like Norman Tebbit in his pomp?"
"""Just as Lord Goldsmith proposed oaths of allegiance and a British Day as the solution to our angsting over national identity, the BBC's The Poles Are Coming documentary revealed just how irrelevant these wranglings are to both migrants and the communities that host them."" says the author.
People don't want oaths of allegience for immigrants, they want less immigrants. That doesn't necessarily mean banning immigration, but it does at the very least mean counting it or even controlling it, so that it is at acceptable levels. this means level where people still feel part of the community (i.e. like they are living in their own country), and they are able to get a decent job. But this government is both useless and ideologically averse to controlling immigration. At the same time there seems to be little short term and long term practical benefit from immigration.
It would rather come out with rubbish like we are all immigrants anyway and so everyone in the world has the right to come and live in britain. Such statements are essentially bollocks. they are only true if you go back thousands of years, to times where we have no historical evidence.
The fact that the government and elements of the left come out with such rubbish shows the disdain with which they view the british people. The economy is more important than the people to them. This despite the fact that the economy is a made up concept and people are real. Business leaders want to make money, by reducing labour costs and avoiding employment laws. the left; well what do they want: a rainbow nation in itself, or an increase in the proletariat for the next go at the revolution. Whatever it is it won't involve the word british.
So stick that in your britishness test."
"The bbc site says the Poles are doing a 60 hr week with no meal breaks - good luck to them, but it's not exactly great work-life balance, is it? They are very clearly being used to undercut the locals.
What is so irritating is that the patronising so-&-so's writing this stuff wouldn't dream of putting up with similar conditions themselves - they've simply ""adopted"" a new set of human pets and lost interest in the British working class."
"LordSummerisle: fair point.
skava: Not suggesting officials are lazy. It's not a moral failing, and it's not theirs - they're just finding that Gordon Brown is more interested in defining Britishness.
theprimacyofclass: £7/h isn't a lot, I agree, but it's quite a bit more than the minimum wage. Peculiar comment there about my mortgage. I suppose I could tell you that I picked up sugar beet the harvester left behind for the minimum agricultural wage when I was a teenager, but you'd probably just snort that it was a holiday job and I don't have the right to comment on low paid work. So be it.
Mendoza - I'm not talking about the ""mob"" when I criticise the government's efforts to spin this issue into a debate about Britishness. On the contrary. I think I've made it clear that there are lots of pressures on the ground which haven't been properly acknowledged at central government level. That's not to claim that everyone wants to join in the Britishness debate - but you must admit it's an easier one to have, which is why so many people piled in on the subject on CiF yesterday.
donge - Yes. Danzig is the German name for Gdansk."
"The Guardian, in 'despising the English white working class' shocker! the bit about the youths nottaking the 7.00 an hour work was simplistic, (and a cheap stunt) such work is very hard, temporary, and without many rights and to the the polish workers, 7.00 an hour is a massive amount of money. Further, most agricultural real term pay is much lower than seven pounds an hour. Even though i have come to expect it, the attitude of the liberal middle class to the white working class is really beginning to grate. Obviously now the WWC have 'failed the left' they are shifting around for a new proletariat to patronise.
It's also very revealing that many of those who rightly defends migrants, come out with the most offensive language about what is basically the White Working Class, (possibly underclass, but I don't like that word.) The thing is, many of the people who are called 'chavs and pramfaces, doles scroungers, estate scum, etc ' are the children of a generation that felt the full force of Thatcherism and then Blairism with pit/steelwork closures, etc. Many of their parents were indeed very hardworking 'workers' up to to the 80's,early 90's etc, doesn't that tell you something? They have also encountered an educational system which is based on SATS and targets and league tables and which rejects them at a early age. Where wages are now so low , and yes, some of that is down to migrant labour undercutting and driving down wages. They are also prey to all sorts of drug dealers, who are often funded by the deals they do for the middle class cocaine habits, but no shame there.
Perhaps left wing journos, like Ros should be calling for decent apprenticeships and skills training for all those indolent 'chavs' dolescum' etc.
and i used to love the Guardian....."
"Duvey - ""Just as an aside, is it just me or is the famously 'liberal' BBC and Guardian starting to sound more & more like Norman Tebbit in his pomp?""
*laughs*"
"_AT_wolfiesmith
Bit surprised your comment was deleted, much worse seems to go unmoderated around here. Occurs to me there is one sense in which you have a valid point - bad behaviour tends to be associated with transient populations. If you'd had a bunch of uni students next door you'd probably have the same problem.
Which is why one of the things I'm uneasy about the Eastern European situation is the continual 'churn' involved. Its not like any previous wave of immigration where people had to upend their lives and make a long term commitment to their new country. This ability to come and go at will is new and in my view potentially undermines social solidarity as well as being bad for any free-at-the-point-of-use form of social service provision."
dreamer06 - "Perhaps left wing journos, like Ros should be calling for decent apprenticeships and skills training for all those indolent 'chavs' dolescum' etc" Yes, hope they do get the training they need. But I'm also worried about the effect that not providing adequate services will have on the white working class and migrants alike. I think it may breed resentment in people who already feel hard done by.
"_AT_formerlefty - the point I was making was that we were fed a lot of propaganda about how uncontrolled immigration was good (nay, essential!) to our economy. If it was true, we should be rolling in money.
As it turned out, the economic benefit to the population as a whole was the equivalent of a Mars Bar a week. And that's before we take into account the extra costs of schools, teachers, roads, hospitals, doctors etc.
As you rightly point out - most of the tax-raising and spending comes from central government which simply hasn't a clue how many people are in the country, or who comes in or leaves.
I'm old enough to remember when Guardianstas would mock the low-wage US economy and the dependence of agri-barons on poor Mexican labour. Welcome to the new left - you'll recognise it, it's just like the old right.
Maybe we can have a windfall tax on squash-barons...
""Gdansk, is that the same place as Danzig? I'm a bit out of touch these days.""
Have you been spending a lot of time in South America, donge?"
"Just a quick question:
Do you think the Spanish are fed up with thousands of British emigrating to Spain, stealing their jobs and not learning the local language?
Discuss."
"_AT_ formerlefty ""Which is why one of the things I'm uneasy about the Eastern European situation is the continual 'churn' involved. Its not like any previous wave of immigration where people had to upend their lives and make a long term commitment to their new country. This ability to come and go at will is new and in my view potentially undermines social solidarity as well as being bad for any free-at-the-point-of-use form of social service provision.""
But, formerlefty, you see this is their right as a citizen of the EU. Just as it is your right, and indeed my right. We can upsticks and go and work in France tomorrow if we wanted to. I myself left the UK and came to Ireland, but I can leave tomorrow. This is what both the UK and, now, Poland have signed up to. Quite whether this has been properly thought through at EU level is another matter entirely..."
"jimbo88: ""Do you think the Spanish are fed up with thousands of British emigrating to Spain, stealing their jobs and not learning the local language?""
Shouldn't you be asking that on a Spanish website? Why should anyone here know or care?
Besides the numbers are in no way comparable, under 300,000 Brits in Spain (the only EU country that significant numbers of Brits have gone to), over a million east europeans here.
Heck there are as many _French_ people _in London alone_ as there are Brits in the whole of Spain, despite that being the EU nation with the largest number of expat Brits. The reality is free movement of labour in the EU is sadly a one-way thing.
Additionally I don't know how many of those Brits are 'stealing jobs' as opposed to retirees going there with their Brit pensions or people with capital going to start businesses. But if the Spanish wanted to send them all back that's up to them."
Would you feel aggrieved if British people were attacked in the local population?
"Since there is now complete freedom of movement and residence throughout the EU, I don't see how anyone feels confident in quoting figures about how many Spaniards there are in Estonia, Scotswomen in Italy, Greeks in France or British people in Portugal.
And good for that. It's what freedom means - being able to move around without someone saying 'you can't come in here, there's too many Italians in Denmark already.' It's why we joined the EU. Get used to the idea that going from Lyons or Thessaloniki to Middlesbrough should be (and is, apart from the fares) as easy as going from Woking to East Ham."
"Rock, no one on here (I hope)are blaming the Polish migrants, but the speed, and volume of migration and the lack of infrastructure to deal wit it, is becoming a problem. The blame should be firmly place at NL's door.
btw, i wonder if people here know that now low skill immigration from outside the EU is being phased out. The Govt are going to push even severely disabled people into those jobs.
nasty stuff..."
"The Poles are here because they are cheap labour. Therefore, no investment should be put into schools for them. They decided to come and they are alone and must sink or swim-or go back to Poland and try to build their own country rather than pandering to only get rich quick impulses.
Much as I don't like Kaczynski he was right to question the patriotism of those who left. Why did all those dissidents bother, if the only result is that a good number of the population just up and leave their land and harm its economic chances of development.
Britain is to blame for its short termist greed as well. Rather than invest in training indigenous people it just sought to import more 'motivated' workers.
Ros Taylor does not get it. Most of them do not want to 'integrate'. They think in terms of how far their pounds will go in Poland. They do benefit financially but native Britons do not.
Had Ros Taylor met any of them or , as I have, been married to one, then you would actually know what you are talking about. The migration is transitory and should be treated as such rather than regarded as a long term. The more that go home the better, though I wish them well.
The real crunch will come when the recession hits hard. That's when competition and resentment might start to become apparent."
"Fact is in areas like Herefordshire the unemployment rate is around 0.02% which means there's no local labour to harvest the squillions of tons of strawberries that need picking so we can all stuff our faces with them for most of the year.
This picture is replicated elsewhere in the country, particularly where soft fruit and veg are grown
Farmers who grow fruit and veg in the UK are increasingly dependent upon seasonal migrant labour.
At least the migrants who come here take the trouble to learn the language unlike so many expat Brits in Spain."
"jimbo88: ""Do you think the Spanish are fed up with thousands of British emigrating to Spain, stealing their jobs and not learning the local language?""
If British people are moving to Spain, taking jobs and not bothering to learn the language, then the Spanish have every right to be fed up.
Can i assume you are also fed up with immigrants to this country who do the same thing?"
formerlefty is correct, the British expats in Spain who are so often brought up in these debates tend to be older people who've retired, sold up and used their grey pound to live out their days somewhere sunnier. Sort of like all the elderly Yanks who move to Florida. It's not really comparable. I have some sympathy with the Spanish who don't like the little English enclaves but on the other hand there are entire satellite channels dedicated to flogging us property there so they can blame their own developers.
"The problem is the rate of change and the fact that only 15,00 were due to come instead we had circa 250,000.
The other issue is that many of the A8 immigrants because of the numbers tend to stick in thier own groups rather than make an effort to integrate. This can be said of ex-pats who retire to spain and only mix with brits and can't speak spanish.
The reason why many brits are not willing to take the work is beacause a) it is seasonal b) if your are signing on and sign off to do casual work yiu have to restart your claim and also your housing benefit and thier is a delay in doing this and in some cases the housing benefit is delayed so you end up with rent problems. The hassle for a few weeks work when you lose your housing benefit is not worth it.
Will the moderator delete this point like my first one."
Why do we hate immigrants so much? You find this flavor of racism everywhere - from South Africa to Japan to the US. This is especially interesting because most of us are immigrants in some form or another. And in some countries like the UK they institutionalize this form of racism to ensure they stay "pretty" inside. Can't we all just get along? More on this in my blog at http://angryafrican.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/quick-hide-the-nigerianmexicanpolakkoreanpakistani-is-coming/
AllyF I reckon that should be(in)the Oath of Allegiance
"jimbo88: ""Would you feel aggrieved if British people were attacked in the local population?""
Don't know about 'aggrieved' - that;s a loaded word that suggests some personal investment in the issue, when in reality I don't feel the Brits in Spain have anything much to do with me.
However I'd strongly oppose the idea of people being attacked for their nationality in whatever country. Who ever suggested otherwise?
The issue isn't 'attacking' foreigners, its the foolishness of the EU system of insisting nations have to treat other country's citizens exactly as their own, in the absence of a EU-wide government and tax-and-benefit-and-social-services system.
The system simply makes no sense. Either the EU is a single super state or it isn't, the current system is a senseless compromise because neither side can get what they really want."
InspectorCallahan, AllyF, exArmy: "Hey, you're here because our government can't run a piss-up in a brewery..." - Would dare to rephrase it: "Hey, you're here because not even our jobless youth would ever do such uncongenially shitty jobs so many hours each day, cramping through the nights, for such scrimpy wages..."
"It's so easy to fool people isn't it? Get a group of five or six lads outside the job centre, give them a couple of beer cans to open, tell them about a temporary job offering shit money that they'd have to sign off the dole to take up, sneer at them when they reject it.
Hey Presto! The viewers are all convinced the white working class are a load of dole scroungers. Never mind all the white working class they must see digging up the roads in the morning as they are off to their smart office jobs. They don't exist."
"Angry African, I don't think a single word of hatred towards immigrants has been expressed on this thread. Certainly I feel no hatred - my parents are immigrants. There are arguments against specific forms of immigration that are not racist or xenophobic. If for example economic migrants are placing a strain on a host country's resources that outweighs the contribution they make, then isn't there a fair argument at least for limits? No one is blaming the Poles or wishes them any ill will.
vladek, it sounds you're talking about exploitation pure and simple. It's not so much that our youth would refuse to do it as it would be illegal to employ them for such labour. Immigrants who either don't know their rights or need the money can be persuaded to shut up and do it."
"""Much as I don't like Kaczynski he was right to question the patriotism of those who left. Why did all those dissidents bother, if the only result is that a good number of the population just up and leave their land and harm its economic chances of development.""
It may have had something to do with the 18% unemployment at the time, rising to around 40% in some pockets of long-term structural unemployment. Patriotism is not something I'm particularly bothered about myself, but I can see how for even the most ardent of patriots some basic things come first, like how to feed and clothe yourself from one month to the next. The signs are that significant numbers of Poles are starting to return, bringing back capital (although less than they thought, thanks to the strong zloty), skills, and considerably more entrepreneurial nous and confidence than they could have gained by sitting on their elbows at home. This will be of much more benefit to Poland's economic development than any number of unconstitutional lustration laws and wiretapping of coalition partners, which is what Kaczynski seems to think government is for."
"""Britain is to blame for its short termist greed as well. Rather than invest in training indigenous people it just sought to import more 'motivated' workers.""
Not true. They came of their own accord as a consequence of the fact that the British government was prepared to offer a level playing field to all EU countries and not the unfair protectionist two-track option chosen by some countries. They were not selectively imported like Bangladeshi doctors- as a consequence of European integration they have a right to be here which they have - understandably enough - chosen en masse to exercise. Get angry at the government for participating in the EU if you want, but this comes with the territory."
The programme was a prime example of how the PC liberal political elite have sold out their own country to the EU superstate. As a result all the scum of Europe can now flock in and destroy our once proud nation. The Anglo Saxon peoples will one day rise up and take back our nation. Our day will come and then all the Guardian readers of this world better seek refuge.
"I have come in October for an internship Leonardo da Vinci. I have been hearing to the discussion about migration in the UK with great attentions. This is my own point of view, but I'm really grateful to BBC for opening a discussion about the chalanges of the identity to the 'indigenous' peopele in the UK.
Did anyone read Huntington's ""Who We Are""? He put his profound question regarding the view of ordinary people, instead of the New Yourk Times view. I think that the same profound question has now risen amongs the UK, or rather working class. At last, as the EU won't go further without answering to this question."
"-----"". As a result all the scum of Europe can now flock in and destroy our once proud nation. The Anglo Saxon peoples will one day rise up and take back our nation.""------
The nation isn't yours at all. You were the scum of Europe at the time who came o"
Hengist and his followers were invited to fill skills shortages caused by the Roman colonists' failure to allow proper training of the native British workforce. (I'm not making this up. I think 666 is pulling your leg a bit, though).
The Poles I've met so far seem to be fairly dull and hard working. They do like to work my Kolbasa.
"InspectorCallagan: „It's not so much that our youth would refuse to do it as it would be illegal to employ them for such labor."" - Does it mean that it is less illegal to employ for such labor the newly arrived Poles? Or that in their case the law is not so strictly upheld? This it seems to me is one of the points of the article - that in case of migrants such exploitation is allowed.
Beniulek (March 12, 21:38) I see another advantage going against Kaczynski petty-gentry-tunnel-vision patriotism - that many young Poles who've been living in maybe the most ethnically and religion-wise homogeneous country of Europe can for the first time experience so many aspects of otherness, thus profit from an opportunity to widen their horizons and help making Poland a more open minded and tolerant nation."
I think the US should welcome more Polish immigrants. Apparently they have difficulty getting visas to the US because of illegal employment and over staying visa concerns. I say we let them come and welcome them with open arms legally. Polish immigrants have made fine Americans in the past.
"""oldatlantic"", why would you pinpoint immigration as the cause of this problem? It has little to do with it. I'm a teenager myself and I see this issue surrounding me; often immigrants are the kinder people that I meet. I agree wholeheartedly with the author's premise: that adults often forget that the teenage society is as complex, in terms of personality and so on, as the adult one.
The fact that teens are viewed as a uniform group of people, a target market you could say, is the root of this problem; to think we are all the same, that we all have the same opportunities and knowledge and desires. To think that we are inherently evil and need to be monitored; even to think that we are all equally naive and stupid. We're human beings and of course there are going to be seedy ones, daft ones, violent ones, intelligent ones and so on and on and on... but stop trying to base these differences on race, because race has nothing to do with it. Poverty and inequality, however, do.
until the world of adults becomes less violent, hypocritical, and divisive the world of youth will continue to reflect the conditions under which they have been brought up... each person will react uniquely to these conditions and make choices of their own."
"It is so non PC to mention , nay even think it -- but it is a startlingly obvious fact that the rash of knife crimes and shootings in UK right now -- are carried out by African or Carribbean immigrants, or by their offspring.
Is it racist to state such a blatantly obvious truth staring us in the face?
Something has clearly gone very, very wrong in UK's immigration policy, how many have been let into the country,regarding who has been let into the country, and how they have been integrated -- or not integrated -- which is clearly closer to the truth.
What is it? Just what values are so prevalent in the African and Carribean communities, that these awful,awful crimes have become a way of life? And it must be said, a ""normal"" way of life for adults AND children.Children! What has happened that the host community in Britain should become so afraid of children -- their own ethnic white British, and immigrant Afro Carribean British children?!!
You can blame the slave trade all you want, you can blame the absent fathers, but in the end, that is a nonsense -- many many ethnic British I grew up with had abusive , dysfunctional families, and next to no career chances -- many of them, even now in middle age, don't own a house, or a car, let alone have a driving licence or even have a worthwhile job -- None of them ever considered it ok to take the life of another, to posture, and mug up as a macho hoodlum, as seems to be acceptable for many in the Afro Carribean communities.
Why is this?
Why is this not a problem, say,in Jewish communities, sons and offspring of impoverished, often despearate and scorned immigrants themeselves? Well, if you are going to cite slavery as a cause for the Afro Carribean lifestyle in which violence and intimidation appear to be everyday occurences, well hey, let's look at the holocuast, and let's look at what Jews had to overcome -- having one's entire family gassed, obliterated and rubbed out certainly hasn't stopped the Jewish communities from lifting themselves out of the shtetls, death ghettos and Dante-esque hells of Europe. And even beyond Europe, centuries of Dhimmi status in the Middle East hasn't stopped them either.
A BBC report stated that the young in African/Carribean communities apparently consider carrying out gang crime, and being a victim of it, to be akin to a rite of passage to manhood.
Wow, isn't that just great -- In countries like Thailand and Burma, a period spent as a monk is a rite of passage to manhood. In countries such as South Korea, a period spent in the army is considered a vital rite of passage.
But on the streets of Hackney, Elephant and Castle and Shoreditch?
Well -- get ready to walk the stupid, ignorant macho walk, lift up your hood to hide your face, and mug someone, perhaps even take their life if they look at you in the wrong way.
What a rite of passage!
What the hell is going on on the streets of UK? Do the British have such little common sense that they have let this plague grow and prosper unhindered, unchallenged on their streets for so long?
That is clearly what has happened, and now the host community just don't know how to deal with the fall out, the streets of London being made unliveable by 15 year old children with -- apparently -- nothing but ignorance and stupidity in their heads and the most extreme violence as a way of gaining ""respect"".
What is it that stupid, stupid rap song says? ""Get rich or die trying.""
What an ideal to have as a guiding light through the rite of passage to manhood.
Is it racist to attack rap too, in this way? Of course it is not -- Do you think intelligent, educated artists like Griff from Public Enemy, or De La Soul, or early Grand Master Flash members like Skip Mcdonald et al would ever, ever support the ""die trying"" Gangsta lifestyle, thug ""ethics"" and lyrics? Of course they would not. Do you think older reggae artists and reggae sound systems would ever support the ignorance, inanity, lack of education and violence of dancehall,Bashment and Ragga? Of course they wouldn't , not for a moment. Check out Peckham's Mad Professor's regular writing on the total plague of current reggae and rap, and how it has infected the Afro Carribean young."
"Bring back the tawse, birching and caning to curb this epidemic of violence!
Reflect, British people on how this tragedy of violent crime amongst young people has rocketed after schools abandoned corporal punishment. We all know the bullies charter that now ruins so many young lives at school.
We must defend the weak against the predatory and vicious in our society. We must make a stand against knives and guns. Anyone found in possession of either should be sent to detention and caned.
Caning for specific crimes like violence can be an effective deterrent. We need to re-think our position on this.
GAIA"
I am amazed to read the stream of right wing bile that pours from readers of a "so called" liberal newspaper such as the guardian when the shackles are removed. "Send em 'ome, flog em, bring back the tawse",anybody would think that this was the, "Daily Mail".
"GaiaHepburn
.
## Bring back the tawse, birching and caning to curb this epidemic of violence! ##
.
Very witty.
.
B
.
redafiya63
. ## Is it racist to state such a .. truth..? ( black kids are dying)##
.
Not at all. Crazy not to.
.
## Something.. wrong in UK's immigration policy, ##
This is not racist either but it will be a comfort to racists everywhere.
.
## Why is this not a problem, say,in Jewish communities,? ##
.
Jewish folk are often white within a country of often white people .
The daily racism , xenophobia and superiority of the host people will be nothing like as bad for them as for black folk.
Black people were treated as the worlds slaves for millennia.
Racism here and abroad ensures the role models are limited to sport and entertainment.
Jewish folk were discriminated against and murdered mainly by Christians but despite this, by and large, have stunning successful role models in legal and political fields.. superb educational ambitions generally and sympathy because of an astonishing PR machine.
B
PS You must know this ...is there something else you are trying to say?"
"VICFILM wrote : //I am amazed to read the stream of right wing bile that pours from readers of a ""so called"" liberal newspaper such as the guardian when the shackles are removed. ""Send em 'ome, flog em, bring back the tawse"",anybody would think that this was the, ""Daily Mail""../
Under ""normal"" conditions, living under ""normal"" conditions,in ""normal"" situations in ""normal"" streets, I would agree with you, totally, without hesitation.
But a cursory glance at the dailies concerning knife/gun crimes, many carried out by mere children -- show we are not living under anything like ""normal"" conditions. Are you susrpised therefore, when some ( like Gaia ) get carried away or utterly frustarted in their search for solutions? I am not surprised at all by such postings, given the daily situation and crime stats. Why are you surprised? I am not saying I agree with the birch idea, but I do totally understand someone's call for it, and do you have better ideas? If so, what are they?"
"Wow, a piece on the fear young people experience vis a vis other young people on the streets of the UK.
And first out of the gate is OldAtlantic who solves this problem for us and innumerable young people by pointing that it's foreigners wot are responsible for a climate of fear amongst the young themselves. To save you the effort of checking his - oh my - self referenced url, let me point out that it states that immigrants are causing the average wage of native (US) males to remain depressed and for there to be a climate of job insecurity. Said climnate then causes negative population growth amongst the natives, but, joy of joys, the blood sucking immigrants who are obvioiusly thriving on their job-for-life high-paying minimum-wage jobs can't control their libidos or their fertility rates and soon we'll soon be swamped by - as in the Swedish study he cites - lots of swarthy looking people!
Thanks. Now we know job insecurity and declining population rates are now caused by immigration. That explains everything. Who needs detailed macro-economic theories and models to explain the complexities of modern economic life, when we can just point to immigrants flooding our country. Phew! thank goodness he didn't point his finger at the Jews, then I would have thought he was kind of racist or something.
It's ironic that the US developed its economic strength through the toiling of its immigrant population and the establishment of exploitative international economic bodies, isn't it?
Actually, OA you are seriously delusional, both in the factoids you present to weave your arguments and in the argument you make. FYI, my American friend, the UK has a very long history and tradition of street violence that predates immigration. Truth is, there have always been people spoiling for a 'spot of bother', regardless of whether there were any immigrants or not. Growing up in London I was constantly warned by my mother to watch out for other people (nationality not mentioned) and steer clear of leery situations. Sound advice. BTW, Old Atlantic also writes at length about the lies that are global warming on his homepage -
http://oldatlanticlighthouse.wordpress.com/
Catherine Johnson, I thought your thoughts were sound. Instead of the Daily Mail's portrayal as young pople as all being free-basing, alco-pop guzzling, glue-sniffing, knife wielding, knicker-dropping crazed teens, yours highlighted that most young people are perfectly normal and respectable and are deeply concerned about other young people and have to suffer the stupidity and violence of the few. A viewpoint, I agree with."
"vicfilmcritic
## I am amazed to read the stream of right wing bile that pours from readers of a ""so called"" liberal newspaper ##
I think a lot of folk like to shock.
I also think its not a lot.. but some posts pop out...
* skin right off the back and hurt hurt hurt...I tells ya *
kinda hits ya.
You take care.
Happy Easter.
B"
( Nice one Gaia, you caught me off guard there , snoozing -- clearly you are taking the piss. If you were being serious though -- I wouldn't actually blame you. )
"Judging by some of the comments above, the ignorant racists are out in force today. The current tragic killings have nothing to do with skin colour or immigration (err, when?) from the Carribean. It has everything to do with class and the current availability of knives.
I was staying with my Dad recently, and he came out with the little Englander ""it's those blacks"" and ""what children need is discipline"" speeches, as usual. So I asked him whether there was much fighting and gangs among the young guys he grew up with in 1950s East London. ""oh yeah"", he said, there were lots of punch ups etc., and he almost began to get misty eyed.
The big big difference is the flood of knives into young male society in the last 10 or 15 years. It's not only in England, but here in Oslo too, there are a lot of knives around. Young guys are now carrying knives for protection, and the obvious danger is that instead of just fists and boots flying when young men and boys start fighting, or get into trouble, there is every danger that a knife will come out, with fatal consequences.
As a society, we need to start thinking about how to get these knives off the streets. In the current tragic circumstances in one part of London, adults need to get into the lives of these boys and reverse this horrible turn of events."
I have said this before but it is worth saying again. I was brought up in one of the roughest areas of Salford in the '50s. Children then were expected to be polite and fit in socially. We were expected to think about others feelings and not cause offence. This was drummed into us on a daily basis. Even today I cannot help raising my eyebrows at parents who say 'well if you don't ask, you don't get' when their offspring have asked if they can have something round someone else's house. How did we get to this point? Well, I remember in the 'seventies, I think, columnists like Anne Edwards writing about how non-competitive the British were and how we should complain more. Is it not obvious that you cannot teach children to be sociable and individualistic at the same time? Socialisation is a lifetimes work. Look at the way primitive tribes live. Most of their time is not spent hunting and gathering - it is spent socialising, because relationships are hard work and need constant renewal.
"Incidents like this always bring out the predictable responses, demonising individuals and communities, often either tinged with or expressed with a good dollop of outright racism, such as a few of the coments here prattling on about ""the host community"" and ""our own"" ethnic white children, etc.
These responses then flow naturally into calls for yet harsher 'law and order' measures. However, a recent Government report revealed that Britain is becomming one of the bigest spenders in the world on public order. The prisons are already bulging. It's not working.
Often, the very language used to describe the situation is cloaked in racist assumptions. ""Black on black"" crime? When is burglary described as ""white on white"" crime? This kind of language can then easily lead to the erroneous perception, expressed in posts here, that only young black kids are involved in gangs, knife crime and the like.
Of course, racism - rather than 'race' - is a problem and a contributory factor in this. Institutionalised racism in the police and criminal justice system means black youths are more likely to be stopped and harrassed, more likely to be given custodial sentences etc. But racism, while it acts in very concrete ways to compound the problem, is not the beginning and end of the story.
Most kids, black or white, growing up in working classs communities probably have ordinairy dreams. They also grow up in a world which, increasingly, insists that we express who we are and what our worth is through what we buy. The ethos of 'grab whatever you can for yourself' may also be reflected (although not always) in certain types of music such as rap, but it runs far deeper than that. Thatcher expressed this culture beautifully when she said ""There is no such thing as society"", only individuals out for themselves. Blair and New Labour, an administration ""intensly relaxed"" with inequality, has continued this ethos with renewed enthusiasm.
People like Trevor Phillips often express essentially the same idea, that ""suceeding in business"" and becomming rich is the thing to aspire to for black youth.
We need, perhaps, to encourage a different moral system that cuts against such priorities of self-advancement and greed. But that can only occur hand in hand with a dramatic change in economic and social policy. Then we can assert that there is such a thing as society and every one of us is part of it and potentially able to enrich it in our own way, that an injury to one is an injury to all, that the enormous potential for creating wealth and abundance that we have has to controled by all of us, for the benefit of all of us.
Meanwhile, capitalism is a criminal system. Don't be surprised if those at the botttom of the pile, whatever colour their skin, sometimes take its ethos to heart."
"This is a really fantastic topic for a Guardian thread, simply because it polarises opinion and often throws up unlikely combinations of posters agreeing with one another when on another board e.g. Israel / Palestine or Iraq they would be at each other�s throats.
Living in East London I have thankfully never been mugged or knifed, however I too feel intimidated by the gangs of lads who do their best to make you feel that way, aggressive body language, arrogant glances, conversations petering out and attention being paid to you as you walk by, this is not my imagination or stereotyping, if a group of drunk blokes in suits gave this sort of attention to a loan female, she would rightly feel very uncomfortable.
The interesting thing about this situation is the sheer frustration people seem to feel, on one hand dennisthemenace and co blame capitalism for its values of individualism and aspiration, on the other redayfia seem to feel that harsher penalties would be the way forward. I am not convinced by either of these approaches, in the 60s and 70s there was violence between working class lads and the possibility of a secure job in the mill or factory did not prevent it, lie was still dull, the only advantage being no immediate comparison to a better quality of life i.e. the Jones might have a TV but unlike the Beckhams they didn�t have one for every room for every one of their 6 mansions.
As for stiffer penalties they only way I can see them working is if we are prepared to incarcerate a huge proportion of our young male communities for a very long time, lets not beat around the bush here, the vast majority of them will be black, predominantly as a result of black communities being over represented when it comes to poverty.
Sending someone away for a year for carrying a knife will merely release an angry, alienated young person back on to the streets with a grudge, if the same person is locked up for 10 years then they may well have loss the contacts, the gang, the �reputation� that made them carry a knife in the first pace. However that is a very harsh penalty and would effectively represent washing our hands of an entire generation."
"athroplog wrote :
///Judging by some of the comments above, the ignorant racists are out in force today. The current tragic killings have nothing to do with skin colour or immigration (err, when?) from the Carribean///
errr....urrmmm....besides the recent shooting of a pregnant women in Battersea, ALL the key gun/knife cases in the press have involved immigrants or the offspring of immigrants, both from Africa and the Caribeann. Why is it racist to notice this seemingly obvious fact?
Let me choose a parallel : I currently live in Korea. Koreans are very peacable folk, who almost never cause trouble. The crime rate is very very very low. However, in certain areas in Seoul, crime rates ( particularly violent and sexually abusive crime rates ) have risen over the past 20 years or so. Funnily enough -- the crime rates seem to be rising because of American Army bases/small European communities in certain areas. Now, when I look at the Korean press reports and listen to the ethnic Koreans' concerns regarding the crime rise in specific areas of Seoul and the surrounding suburbs -- am I (and are they) racist if my brain registers the immediately obvious fact, that the crime rate is taking place in an area where white , blonde haired blue eyed people live, and indeed, that they are partly responsible for such a crime rise? I can't deny it, the facts are staring me in the face -- Whites have been involved in crimes which are totally horendous to the Asian population, and an aberration: a rape of a seventy year old woman, manslaughter/murder of school children, murder of young women walking home and so on.
Of course, no one is suggesting it is their white pigmentation that is causing the crime rise -- but their ethnicity is bound to be noticed, and inevitably, what is it about their ( in this case Caucasian ) ethnicity /cultural background which --perhaps -- contributes to their committing these acts?
As far as I am concerned, it is the same with the current spate of gun/knife crimes in UK.
Of course, their ""blackness/skin tone"" is not an issue worthy of consideration in itself -- but c'mon, let's look at why black people ( African and Caribeann ) are doing this, rather than put our heads in the sand and pretend the cultural group is irrelevant.
But this is why I say the British have no common sense -- these issues clearly need to be discussed because they are staring us in the face, yet to do so, means one is a racist! This is madness. When my Korean friends feel deep deep concern about ( white ) Americans and Europeans contributing to the violent crime in their country, do I feel affronted, do I call them racist? Of course some of the Korean commentary IS racist, but in genreal, I certainly don't feel offended -- it makes sense to confront the facts.
But as I said, the British clearly have no common sense."
"_AT_OldAtlantic
I think the immigrants have a lot to contribute in terms of family values and civilised customs.
Which particular ""immigrants"" are you targeting?"
"Why people are bleating about immigration now I have no idea? I think it scandalous to suggest that in some sense ""Afro-Carribean"" values are responsible for the current tragedy.
_AT_Salfordian is correct - the current violence is a result of forty years of self-indulgent social engineering built on the prosperity of the post-war period. The easy acceptance of pornographic and violent entertainment in the name of ""freedom"". An incendiary combination of poverty and racial segregation.
And who is responsible? Why none other than the intellectual left establishment with their idiotic thinking on education, their criminal insistence that the poor carry the burden of integration with immigrant communities and their self-loathing borne of guilt over Britain's imperial past.
Get rid of them and their nostrums and something can start!"
"Some very interesting posts and thoughts.
1) To blame �""immigration"" is a nonsense. If we stopped immigration- which I believe currently is mostly from East Europe, I cannot see that would make any difference to the problem 2) On the other hand Redifiya and others I think are making thoughtful points. It is not racist to point out that much of the knife crime seems to come from Black kids, and pretending its siomething to do with class, or to blame Mrs Thatcher is a copout. 3) I can add to the anecdote abiout crime in Korea. Cyprus is another country with traditionally very low crime rates, strong family bonds. But there are crime hotspots, and in particular Ayia Napa and the towns around there became associated with drunkenness and violent crime. These are the places that the Club 18-30 crowds (the vast majority of them white Britons) and the army bases (ditto) are. To say that there is a crime problem amongst young white british men in Cyprus is not racist; it's a fact. 4) The author of the article is absolutely right: Teenagers are the main victims of these crimes and adopt their own strategies to deal with it. One way is to be quite laid back about being mugged. So your mobile phone was stolen? OK, i'll have to get another (or use my spare- teenagers usually have more than one). Report it to the police? No point. These things happen. 5) Rap MAY be a contributory factor, but I doubt it. I see it more a result than a cause iof the culture. It's a reflection of what these young men think. Hold up your hands anyone who has ever listened to the words of a song and said ""that's right! I'm going to do that!"". Did ""Imagine""- one of the most powerful and popular protest songs ever written, lead to masses of people abandoning religion and their possessions? Igf lennon couldnt change peioples lives, nor can Rap. 6) No, i dont have a ""solution"" any more than anyone else here. It's a depressing scenario. And much of the problem is with the Black community in the Inner cities, their culture and attitudes."
"To me this is not part of some anti immigration rant per se: rather, it seems startlingly obvious to me, that this is particular problem in the African and the Carribeann comunities ( two VERY different groups of course, though people love to lump them together ). Now, by stating this, I am NOT saying that ethnic white Brits do not have problems either, that ethnic white Brits were snow white angels before immigration. We all know that to be true, and many of us probably have tales of being beaten up, or threatened, or intimidated by white guys as we were growing up ( I do -- quite a few ). Neither am I saying that skin tone/pigmentaion has anything whatsoever to do with the deabte.
I repeat, from my point of view, -- this is not a racist/ white supremacist debate. Leave that to the BNP, and see the ""nice place"" where it has got them ( nowhere, in an ignorant hole).
All I am saying is this -- It is clear to me that the African, and also the Caribbean community has a serious, serious issue with guns and knives. Now, you can shove your head in the sand and cry ""nonsense"" and ""racist"" -- but me, I'd far rather try to look at WHY these black communities have this problem. I don't have any answers, but I'd like to find them -- Is it, for example, that a proportion of the African teenagers lived under war conditions in their own countries before they came to UK? Is it, for example, that maybe one of their parents was a victim of war, or maybe even a soldier/murderer in an African conflict? Maybe some of the youths themselves were child soldiers and therefore, totally comfortable with the presence of guns and knives and the power those accorded them? Now, if they are Jamaican ( a radically different culture from Africans ), maybe they have experienced some overspill of violence from the hell that is Kingston, a place where random violence, murder and robbery occur at staggering rates.
Look, I don't assert any of these aformentioned assertions as fact -- but I am simply trying to think about WHY it should be that the African and Carribean communities have such serious knife and gun problems.
To me, it's just lazy thought, and far too easy to say ""oh, it's slavery"" -- This is ethno categorisation and ignorance of the highest degree: for a start, members of the African gun criminal gangs never had slaves in their family tree, never came from slave roots.
Again, you could say, ""it's the absent fathers"" -- however, I know many many ethnic white British who came from sadly broken homes, surrounded by poverty, lack of opportunity and abuse, and even now many of them have very little in the material way. Again, they never dreamed it to be acceptable to knife or murder someone because they couldn't get ""what they wanted from life"", or couldn't afford the latest bling and trainers and flash cars. They worked out other strategies of how to deal with the holes in the centres of their lives."
"( Corrected typo on line 8 -- ""We all know that not to be true"" ).
To me this is not part of some anti immigration rant per se: rather, it seems startlingly obvious to me, that this is particular problem in the African and the Carribeann comunities ( two VERY different groups of course, though people love to lump them together ). Now, by stating this, I am NOT saying that ethnic white Brits do not have problems either, that ethnic white Brits were snow white angels before immigration. We all know that NOT to be true, and many of us probably have tales of being beaten up, or threatened, or intimidated by white guys as we were growing up ( I do -- quite a few ). Neither am I saying that skin tone/pigmentaion has anything whatsoever to do with the deabte.
I repeat, from my point of view, -- this is not a racist/ white supremacist debate. Leave that to the BNP, and see the ""nice place"" where it has got them ( nowhere, in an ignorant hole).
All I am saying is this -- It is clear to me that the African, and also the Caribbean community has a serious, serious issue with guns and knives. Now, you can shove your head in the sand and cry ""nonsense"" and ""racist"" -- but me, I'd far rather try to look at WHY these black communities have this problem. I don't have any answers, but I'd like to find them -- Is it, for example, that a proportion of the African teenagers lived under war conditions in their own countries before they came to UK? Is it, for example, that maybe one of their parents was a victim of war, or maybe even a soldier/murderer in an African conflict? Maybe some of the youths themselves were child soldiers and therefore, totally comfortable with the presence of guns and knives and the power those accorded them? Now, if they are Jamaican ( a radically different culture from Africans ), maybe they have experienced some overspill of violence from the hell that is Kingston, a place where random violence, murder and robbery occur at staggering rates.
Look, I don't assert any of these aformentioned assertions as fact -- but I am simply trying to think about WHY it should be that the African and Carribean communities have such serious knife and gun problems.
To me, it's just lazy thought, and far too easy to say ""oh, it's slavery"" -- This is ethno categorisation and ignorance of the highest degree: for a start, members of the African gun criminal gangs never had slaves in their family tree, never came from slave roots.
Again, you could say, ""it's the absent fathers"" -- however, I know many many ethnic white British who came from sadly broken homes, surrounded by poverty, lack of opportunity and abuse, and even now many of them have very little in the material way. Again, they never dreamed it to be acceptable to knife or murder someone because they couldn't get ""what they wanted from life"", or couldn't afford the latest bling and trainers and flash cars. They worked out other strategies of how to deal with the holes in the centres of their lives."
I Couldn't agree more that we don't spend enough time talking to our children, especially our teens. So, how does opening schools until 6 o'clock at night help? Even less time for parents to communicate. If adults villify religion,( now one of the only sources of moral teaching), are distainful of decency, ( an anything goes no shame society ) and spend their time working out how to get the advantage aat any cost, ( a litigious society which has become an income for some) then how do we teach children that it actually all adds up to nothing? The kids out on the streets have never seen another way of life where consumerism and having to be at the top of the pecking order don't matter. Where people talk to each other and respect a different point of view and where drugs which warp perception and cause mental illness have no place. We live in two separate worlds in Britain, those who are decent and those who are not and they are defined not by wealth but by lifestyle. Nobody cares enough to speak out against the guilty adults who are fuelling the problems. Immigration is a smokescreen. Our own indigenous population are too self-absorbed and self-protectionist to want to reach out and help solve the problem. Adding immigrants to the mix won't help but immigration isn't the cause. Until ALL ADULTS choose the 'respect' agenda nothing will change.
I wouldn't know what to start... I'm an inmigrant who works with English teenagers (but even if 'some' cannot believe it I try to help them to leave their lives like good people and achieve some success in the way). All of the black boys in my group have been robbed at knife point and tell stories of knives involved in fights. We have discussed these issues as a group many times. The themes that constantly come up are the obsession with money and success achieved with the minimum effort, the lack of wortwhile role models (most seem to reinforce that idea of plenty of reward with little effort), lack of spaces to hang out safely, lack of recreational, artistic and sport facilites offering other alternatives and a feeling of not feeling really part of anything (Thatcher politics contributed to make reality her words: we don't seem a society anymore but a group of individuals living in the same place. I find this really sad and depressing but real I'm afraid). I also agree that fights among boys happen now as they always did but when you have a knife at your reach in the heat of the moment they can have a more dramatic outcome (and thanks we're not America and guns are still difficult to get hold of). Teenagers are also scared and capable to see and analyse the malayse among them. We should offer them alternatives and work with them for solutions rather than demonize them and beat around the bush with inmigration policices and stronger laws. If they are part of the problem they should be part of teh solution. We'll all benefit from having a bit of community spirit back, being a society again rather than a group of selfish individuals.
"Ok Redafiya, not saying I have all the answers, but here's a start. Young black people are told their name is something precious which only they can protect. They understand (correctly) that white people view them with suspicion and dislike. They are hurt by that, but their instinct is to get their retaliation in first. An influential cultural icon is the image of the ""Yes boss"" servant boy and the need not to be like that. The worst thing in the world is to be weak and powerless.
That's maybe some of the reason why young blacks turn to knives and guns. White youngsters have reasons of their own.
What's the answer? Lock them up as soon as they step out of line. Until they get old. No matter what the colour, no matter what the cost. I'm serious - it's a question of public protection. What else have we got to spend our money on? Playstations?"
"The extremists on both sides have their usual rants.
Unfortunately for the right the children they talk about are generally not immigrants oreven the children of immigrants but on the whole the children of British citizens born ,right here,in England. What is quite disturbing is that their victimstend to bemore often,themselves immigrants.
The left have even less reason to feel smug. The fact is that the perpetrators are overwhelmingly �black� and are a product of a culture that the hard left have chosen to�celebrate�.
From Damilola Taylor to a boy murdered outside a houseI lived in Briefly in Hammersmith grove ,West London there is a disturbing trend of attacks directed by 3rd generation carribean origined black children against first generation african origined children.
Anyone who thinks that there is not a serious cultural problem in our afro-carribean communities is either very stupid or woefully in denial. I haven�t a clue how it can be resolved but,clearly, the policies of the past 30 years have been shown to be an abject failure."
"slightlyleft wrote :
//there is a disturbing trend of attacks directed by 3rd generation carribean origined black children against first generation african origined children.//
Ok -- NOW we are getting somewhere, and the debate is moving out of the usual right wing ""I told you all darkies are violent its in their genes"", and the equally trite leftist apologist ""it's all the white man's fault"" stances.
Those stances are so lacking in any kind of nuances and intelligent dialectic as to be utterly worthless and frustratingly and laughable.
Slightlyleft brings up a seemingly small, but probably a very significant point. He says, ""there is a disturbing trend of attacks directed by 3rd generation carribean origined black children against first generation african origined children."" If this can be shown to be true ( it sounds a very reasonable assertion to me ), then why should this be? This is a point really worth going in to.
Let's try and work out if details such as these are true, and we all may learn something beyond the profoundly banal ""oh, you are a racist"" rants meets the ""enoch was right"" brigade --
Is it perhaps because the African communities that come to UK originally come from war torn areas, where they have seen guns/machetes from a young age or maybe have even been child soldiers themselves? Is it because the Jamaicans are jealous of their hard won turf and hard won integration? Is it because of jealousy over council housing allocation and so on? Is it because Jamaican youth have learned hard lessons from their connections to Kingston? What?
Again, I do not suggest any of the above are anything more than speculation -- I am simply looking at an interesting contribution from slightlyleft."
Excellent comments RedSquare, we need a new beginning but more than anything else we need to provide hope of a future for those caught in the poverty trap. Self absorbed politicians haven't got a clue, it all needs to be taken away from them and given to people who firstly understand the dilemma and then are prepared to do the long hard slog. What do we currently offer the poor in Britain.....ghettoisation?....poor education? We need to engage these kid's attention, black or white, at a very early age and stop them glamourising thuggery and regarding each other as the enemy. The first and abiding lesson in school should be, 'treat people as you want to be treated' and 'we are all equal'. For this to work kids need to be able to see it in action. Our adults have to change NOW and set a better example, including Blair and Brown etc. How far detached are they from the reality of poor people in Britain? So far detached that �150 million has just been given to foreign countries as aid for the poor! Get real....we have more relative poverty here than in so called poor countries.
So the obvious answer is to bring young people together in situations where they can all learn from one another. How about if at, say, 18 years of age they all took a turn on an outward-bound-style course for three months? This should not at all be regarded as some kind of preemptive punishment, but as a way to encourage the relaxation of barriers across society. Maybe then the North Country lad would begin to understand the Essex boy, the Muslim could empathise with the Christian (or agnostic), petty squabbles would be seen as ridiculous and childish. With some adult guidance to inculcate self-respect and respect for others by debate and not by immediate recourse to dangerous weapons as a first resort, the next generation could be much better prepared to form and maintain a cohesive society, not one that threatens to disintegrate in bloody anarchy, which is the way Britain is going right now.
"I live in ""Africa""... actually Tanzania which is a country in Africa and, as with most African countries, has a distinctive culture and history.
Saying that violence amongst 1st generation immigrants from ""Africa"" is due in part to their haiving been exposed to guns and machetes every day of thier lives seems crazy to me. Firstly the machete is a tool, it is used by almost every member of the population here as a toll for farming, building, almost any task you can think of people use the machete. I walk about here, often at night, without any worry of gangs of children attacking me, let alone with a knife or machete. The children here are respectful of their elders and authority.
Please lets not bring this discussion down to blaming the ""home"" cultures of immigrants when we should be firmly framing the issue around UK culture and UK (lack of) equality.
Also, please let's not use the work ""Africa"" as if it is a homogenous place of a single culture.
Thanks"
"Like it or not, black or white, these are Thatcher's Grandchildren; Thatcher laid whatever social fabric there was in this country. She made this point perfectly clear
""There is no such thing as society: there are individual men and women, and there are families""
Wheel in the free market; wheel in market forces; wheel in the attitudes which going along with this.
These kids are products of the free market - self-interested, narcissistic and dangerous, just like their counterparts in business. They may use foul means to acquire their wealth but there is no doubt that their business counterparts do so as well.
Like their Capitalist counterparts they don't give a shit for 'community' (long lost word); Thatcher put paid to any suggestion of that.
It is obvious that we are living in period of decadence and malignant economic have been shaping this over the years."
"Directly to Catherine Johnson - thanks for that article. It's good to see these points aired. I've never forgotten what it's like to be a young male teenager, and being scared, beaten up by older and larger guys - having friends nearly killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time; and most importantly the ""adult"" society (police, courts etc) genuinely not giving a sh1t. Nothing has changed in fact, except maybe more young are carrying guns than before....as for knives? Look at Glasgow in the 50s and 60s.
For the RACISTS, XENOPHOBES AND NEO-NAZIS out there - let me tell you a very quick story. I grew up in the west of Scotland, going through my teens in the early 80s. My high school of 1500 pupils (ages 12 to 17), there were *2* non-whites. One girl was an african adoptee into a white family, and the other was a Vietnamese war orphan (again into a local white family). The 2 other high schools in the area were roughly the same racially. My town probably had 20 or 30 non-white or ""immigrant"" families at the time. Quite simply, the vast majority of families in the area had been there for multiple generations. Guess what! There was plenty of violence and social disorder. Knives, guns, rapings, murders, drug dealing, gang fights, rampant car theft, burglaries - all happened. As a 14 yr old I nearly had a 7 inch knife through my stomach on a Sunday afternoon for 34 pence. I've personally seen 4 guys killed, with bottles, cosh and plain old fists and feets. All locals, all whites - not an immigrant in sight. My father - a retired local cop - was never stuck for something to do, trust me.
Sure, some (often violently) argued that the 3rd,4th,5th generation Irish famine refugees were ""immigrants"" - aka ""dirty Fenians"", and as a Catholic I was on the receiving end of that non sense on more than one occasion (hello to any of those bigots, I can trace my Scots ancestry back about 700 years).
So - first point. You get arseholes everywhere - homegrown as well as imported. Simple as that. Stop the Ayrian race fantasy, it's not smart and it's not funny. If you really want to play the immigration game, where do you draw the line?? I'm happy enough to go back around 1200 or 1300 years just to be safe - goodbye Angles, Saxons and Vikings. Cymri, you lot are all right - you can visit whenever you want, just please give us a chance at rugby once in a while!
Second point. The law is the law - and should be for everyone. A young male is at least 10 times more likely to be the victim of unprovoked violence than say a 30 something middle income car driving male or female. However, the police rarely do anything about it - as they know it'll rarely get to court (since it's just a ""minor"" incident involving youth). Maybe if the courts and politicians started *applying* the *current* laws to the troublemaking minority (regardless of being an immigrant or indigenous), then for young people the police might seem like something to respect again - rather than be afraid of. Stop letting the same hard core of trouble makers run amok within the system - and I don't mean ""lock em up and throw away the key"". There are plenty of good ""progressive"" approaches out there. Have a look to see how other countries are dealing with the same issues.
Third point. Since a lot of ""society"" quite clearly sees *all* young people as a problem - then I genuinely don't blame young guys for taking the obvious step and being prepared to defend themselves. If the police and wider society clearly isn't going to protect you, then you have to do it yourself. Carrying a weapon is never a clever thing to do - but it's an obvious fear based reaction. If you live in an area where ""the bad guys"" all do it, then it will seem like the only choice.
Final point (sorry for the rant in fact). We were all young once - I think a lot of people forget that."
"Voltz, thanks for joining the debate -- it is good to have an African on board when we are discussing Africans.
You made some very good, and also perhaps some not so perceptive points, the latter unsurprising since you don't live in the communities blighted by these young gun and knife wielding thugs.
You said : ///Saying that violence amongst 1st generation immigrants from ""Africa"" is due in part to their haiving been exposed to guns and machetes every day of thier lives seems crazy to me.///
No one asserted this as a fact : What I did say, was that we are looking for *possible* answers to a terrible problem on our streets, much of which the African and Jamaican communities are responsible for. We have to *try* and find answers beyond the right wing racist ones and the corny old left wing trite nonsense, both of which are laughably inadequate.If lots of these kids are coming from refugee zones in Africa,Sudan,Somalia Ethiopia, Rwanda, or from extremely violent parts of say, Nigeria ( EG Lagos, where gun and knife crime is rampant ), then these seem to me to be worthwhile points to try and work out. You can't see why such questions may be relevant? ( and yes I have lived in Nigeria, and Zimbabwe too ).
Voltz wrote ///I walk about here, often at night, without any worry of gangs of children attacking me, let alone with a knife or machete. The children here are respectful of their elders and authority.///
That's fine:Lucky you. I envy you. Seriously We certainly can't do the same in urban England, where we often live in fear of black *and* white youths. Check the UK papers, any and every day of the week. A machete on the streets and underpasses of London or Manchester, and a machete in the suburbs of Lilongwe, Blantrye or Bulawayo are quite different propositions, beleive me, and yes, I have lived in all the environments I have just mentioned.Look at these black *and* white kids in London in the wrong way, or if they feel you've disrespected them, you might be in serious trouble. Not so in the suburbs of Lilongwe.
///Please lets not bring this discussion down to blaming the ""home"" cultures of immigrants when we should be firmly framing the issue around UK culture and UK (lack of) equality.///
Excuse me, but this is a rash, even foolish answer -- who are you to say with such certainty that it is the fault of an unfair host nation ( in this case, Britain )? You don't even live here. And besides, there are countless ethnic white Britains born into very similar positions who do not react in the same way if they can't get the bling, trainers and fast cars lifestyles.
///Also, please let's not use the work ""Africa"" as if it is a homogenous place of a single culture.///
A very good point, and in UK, people typically label the ""Afro Carribean"" community as one homogenous lump, whilst of course, many Africans have as little in common with Jamaicans as we white Brits have in common with people from Cyprus, Sardinia or Sicily.
Thanks for joining the debate Voltz.
Thanks"
"Cynic666:
Bravo!"
"Good Lord immigration has NOTHING to do with this! When I was growing up in all-white Dublin in the 1970s the situations described in this beautifully observed piece were the exact same.
Catherine Johnson - well done; great article. You should return to this topic. I don't know if there is any solution; maybe the idea of a fear-free childhood is Utopian.
But you had me looking through my 14-year-old-eyes again!"
PS Voltz, if there were a number of young white gangs on the streets of Tanzania's urban centres, murdering each other and murdering locals -- do you not think Tanzanian locals would want to know why it was happening, why the white gangs were behaving this way? And would you *immediately* say it was clearly Tanzania's fault, with the same haste you wish to blame England for this very real problem?
This article began stating that teenagers were scared of other teenagers well with the media hysteria on black on black crime and gangsta rap being the only voice that this media will focus on is it any wonder that afro caribean youngsters distrust one another. I spent probably too many years in Jamaican clubs in Radford Notts and if you didn't know someone it could get you in trouble so you have groups of lads/girls just staring trying to look hard and not get beat up and as we all know anything used for protection soon becomes a weapon.
"Goodfairy wrote : //Good Lord immigration has NOTHING to do with this! //
With all due respect, of course it has something to do with immigration -- I will grant you, it has nothing to do with monolithic right wing racist views on immigration, but when such a high number of the gun/knife crimes we see committed are by Africans and Carribeans -- how can you say so confidently it has ""nothing to do with immigration?"" It simply makes no sense -- As I said in a previous post, I live in Korea now: so, next time my Korean friends complain about the amount of ( usually rape,violence and murder related )crime committed by white immigrant communities and more by white GI's -- shall I also tell them in a PC righteous outburst, "" Good Lord,it has NOTHING to do with ( albeit in Korea's case, temporary ) immigration?????
They'd look at me as if I'd gone utterly mad, and quite rightly too."
fur8all wrote about attending Jamaican sound systems : I am middel aged now,but that was very much a part of my upbringing too, from the late 70's onwards , until I became too old to go!), and if you remember back in the 70's, true legends like Jah Shaka never tolerated violence in the dancehall. Amongst those sound system audiences who were educating themselves through the music, and not dulling their wits with more and more acquisitiveness ( NO, I repeat NO songs about bling and pu**y and fast cars ), naked materialism was often despised.
"mkddi (5.33 am), 2nd post
Interesting, refreshing comments, full of common sense. A teenager, too!"
Let's think for one minute about why kids are out, on the streets, hiding their faces and hyper aggressive? Is it because they are instinctively "evil" people? Or that they are afraid? No-one who isn't incredibly insecure gives that much thought to disrespect, to protecting a territory, to maintaining face and undergoing the brutalisation of being part of gang culture. They are terrified, for their lives. They are building a hell that was sketched out years ago. Not to say that we should give them a pat on the back, a biscuit and let them carry on being antisocial, aggressive, criminal. But merely throwing our hands up and demonising them isn't going to be a useful solution. And there needs to be a solution.
"cityboy2006_AT_ - you seem to be saying that if we locked kids up in prison for longer, this would deprive any young criminals of their connection with the source of their bad behavior. This is simply not true. The American model (which the current administration tends to follow almost slavishly) shows that crime becomes organised VIA the prison system. Presumably you would support New Labours plans for prison ships and mega-jails, but you would only be contributing to the viruses the UK picks up every day from observing the American politico/economic/socio-economic system. Prison gang culture will grow under that scenario in the same way it has grown in the US
GrandOldMan_AT_
I dont think you should confuse Lennon and his power to influence so completely with the position enjoyed by today's rappers. Lennon's message was swamped by counter-propaganda and character assassination on a grand scale, but his message ('Imagine') was revolutionary nonetheless. Your average gangster rapper's message, though purporting to be about liberation and pride, is at the same time the equivilent of guaranteed self-destruction and civil war within the very communities which birthed this kind of music. The authorites encourage it because they know this; they want to ghettoes to clear themselves - they want these guys to kill each other; they would be quite happy with this result.
redafiya_AT_
I think you should consider the influence of gender as an additional factor in your theories. Macho culture abounds these days; indeed, it is so all pervasive and has been allowed to roam unchecked and unchallenged in our culture for a long time now, to the point where even female behavior has taken on some of its traits. For me, I feel that the powerful influence of macho ethics comes directly from the political and socio-economic forces which have been allowed to develop since the early 1980's. We allowed some of this to arise as the bi-product of also allowing our shortsighted and fearful conservative side to take presidence in our thinking.
pilar_AT_
The points you make are very poignant. The obsession with (easy) money (note the use of the word obsession here, not used lightly), the lack of role models (why has 50 Cent been allowed to become a role model? Because every generation gets the popstar it deserves - he represents the ugly side of everything the fear based world of capitalism holds dear). I also agree with you pilar, when you highlight Thatcher's dictum of 'no society'. Thatcher's whole mentality (stemming from her childhood) meant to fear one thing above all else; the mob. She knew the power they could unleash if they were ever to agree on anything so fundamental as a way of living. Stamp out the term society and fill all the 'individuals' with fear and loathing and mistrust and there you have it - self-perpetuating structure in which private property can operate safely.
Brobat_AT_
Here, here... agreed entirely!"
"""Excuse me, but this is a rash, even foolish answer -- who are you to say with such certainty that it is the fault of an unfair host nation ( in this case, Britain )? You don't even live here. And besides, there are countless ethnic white Britains born into very similar positions who do not react in the same way if they can't get the bling, trainers and fast cars lifestyles.""
That's true, I don't live in England but prior to this spell in Tanzania I lived in the UK for 30 years, being born there.
All the trouble I got when I lived in the UK was from white people (Coventry, Hackney, Camden).
I think the debate would be lot more interesting if people concentrated on the issues rather than what colour, creed or nationality they think the person posting is..."
"In Ireland in the 80's , when our econmy was in bits with it's high unemployement and emigration...the roughest parts of the country with the run down estates and the most problems where almost 100% white Irish. My friends and I had bad experiences with tough kids from a tough life with probably no family example or encouragement and definitley no future employement prospects.
It is never a racial issue , it is always economic.
Only problem now is that since Ireland has opened her doors to immigrants, we are repeating the same basic mistakes as the Uk France or any other country with an ""immigration problem"". We don't allow the new arrivals to intigrate, we don't want them to intigrate, we don't take the time to learn about their cultures or even why they are in our country and then we complain when the 1rst/2nd /3rd generation of unemployed unrespected unwanted youths go off the rails. The Irish governemnt has ruined an opportunity to handle immigration in a more positive and constructive way. It is a disservice to the immigrants and to the Irish people.
In Paris where I run a bar, I have touble with some local kids , mostly north africans...bored dissenfranchised unwanted troublemakers. I have regulars in my bar from north african countrys...they all have jobs.
It's economic NOT racial"
"Three points:
Voltz,
I spent time in Tanzania in 2003 doing a research project both in Dar Es Salaam, the capital, and a village in the foothills of Kilimanjaro. To paint an idyllic picture of life in Tanzania is misleading. Come nightfall, Dar es Salaam is a violent place - hotels and businesses have armed guards posted outside them. Well to do houses have a night guard, also armed. And one has to be very careful when travelling even by taxi. Upcountry, travelling after dark was impossible because of the very real threat of armed carjackings. And in the village one had to be careful after dark because of street boys who had a reputation for opportunistic violence. Householders lived in fear of being burgled and potentially killed and also having their livestock stolen or witchcraft used against their livestock. Guns are readily available given the proximity to the Kenyan border and there was a palpable climate of fear which, when added to the struggles of daily life and surviving in a water-stressed environment, made life very difficult for the locals. I was also witness to a severe beating of a street youth who had stolen a piglet and was summarily strung up by the owner of the piglet and his henchmen, pistol whipped, threatened with hanging and then left, bound hand and foot on a cold concrete floor while the men decided his fate.
Redafiya63,
I was fortunate last summer to spend time in both Seoul and Okinawa where US bases are located. At the same time I was able to watch Armed Forces Network Television, but also see the soldiers as they roamed about off-duty. AFN TV is punctuated by public service broadcasts which inadvertently paint a very poor picture of the calibre of soldier currently serving. Judging from the frequency of these broadcasts the US Army has a tremendous problem with internal sexual harrassment, theft on base, alcohol abuse, vandalism and domestic violence as a means of conflict resolution. What also stood out was the kind of language which seemed that the broadcasts were aimed at educationally subnormal, barely literate teenagers. Walking around Itaewon in Seoul and Naha City in Okinawa I witnessed drunken, aggressive, foul-mouthed and sexually predatory behaviour that was cringe-making and embarrassing, and just plain boorish. So there you have it: America's supposed finest fulfilling every negative stereotype that Koreans and Japanese can have of westerners.
OldAtlantic,
If what you say is true and low wages for men destroys families, then surely this would apply to immgrant families too? But my experience has shown me that these families, whilst often surviving on the slenderest of incomes, are also the most closely bound and concerned with family traditions.
You're a curious person, OldAtlantic. Obviously, you have a lot of time on your hands to be able to maintain a prolific blog, and you also read extensively. Unfortunately, it seems as if you're quite smart enough to bypass your own limited ideological filters and end up continually producing arguments that are neither cohesive or convincing; rather just reductive, repetitive and one-dimensional."
"Voltz, I can't answer your post in any seriousness, because you just blatantly contradicted yourself in both your posts -- in your first post, you *directly* blamed nationality and ethnicity, blaming the white host nation of Britain for the problems faced by Africans, defining the problem very specifically as unequal treatment of blacks at the hands of whites.
Now, in your second post, you write --
//All the trouble I got when I lived in the UK was from white people (Coventry, Hackney, Camden).I think the debate would be lot more interesting if people concentrated on the issues rather than what colour, creed or nationality they think the person posting is...///
Bingo -- you say you don't want to discuss colour or nationality -- but so far, that's ALL you have done.
What's behind what you are saying Voltz? I don't get it.
Look, open any paper in the UK -- believe me, *THERE IS* a very real problem with black knife and gun violence. Don't take my word for it, read the reports. No one is saying that whites didn't create their own vicious, violent ghettoes prior to the arrival of Africans and Carribeans, no one is saying whites are some kind of non violent group ( like far eastern Asians generally are ),no one is implying UK was some kind of 1920's style law abiding ""tea and cucumber sandwiches"" community prior to immigration. It never was,as any number of accounts of violent acts caused by whites in urban areas will show -- but for God's sake man, we can't help but notice a lot of the current gun and knife crime is carried out by *young black men!* What is wrong with stating the bloody obvious? What is it that you don't want to deal with?"
little Tyke - Sorry been out of this discussion for a while. What you suggest used to be called the 'scouts'. We do need to keep these kids occupied though and away from their oppressive environments and parents who can't cope. Yes we do need to mix more but we have to find common ground first, perhaps a plea from the parents for help for their children? Not just black and not just white and not just Asian or Eastern European but ALL of these people together. Before these kids get on the parents have to set the example of how things should be. The parents have to get on and mix freely with each other, be neighbourly and altogether want the best for their kids. Oh and by the way, It's nothing to do with being or feeling British it's about self esteem and knowing that you have something to offer and a true sense of community and wanting the common good, from which everyone will benefit. At the moment not enough people want this to happen, I think they are too busy trying to survive with poverty and debt. For the time being more interventionist policies may work. Have the children compulsorarily withdrawn if they are going to get themselves and others into trouble. Parents would soon shout about that and that would be the first opportunity to speak to them. I know one thing in all of this, Mothers do not want to see their children die.
"""they want access to safe, unstructured places to hang out""
This may well be what teenagers want but if they know they risk becoming victim to violence seeking such places why got to laundarettes, street coners etc. Because they love it, the violence the street life all that, teenagers are smart enough to remove themslves from such risk if they want but the ones involved love it."
"""But a lot of young people don't want 'activities', they want access to safe, unstructured places to hang out. That's why they're in the launderettes or on that bench by the shops or in the park over the road or in the foyers of blocks of flats. But these places aren't safe and we don't want them there either""
This raises three questions:
Firstly, why do they want to hang out? Secondly, is it desirable to provide safe unstructured hangout places? Thirdly, what can be done to make them safe?
As for the solution, one thing that springs to mind is better enforcement of the law, and destroying any notion that they might have that they're above it. A good start would be to change the law regarding assault - an action that does not constitute an assault against an adult should not constitute an assault against a minor, and everyone should have the right to use reasonable force to stop anyone getting away with endangering life (including such actions as throwing stones at vehicles)."
"This is a fascinating debate that I am following with interest.
But what I want is STATISTICS.
If the argument concerns race, I want to see a breakdown of knife/gun/violent crime by race.
I want to see what percentage of the prison population is black, white, asian etc.
I search the web and it's like hunting for a needle in a haystack to get these facts.
Until I see concrete statistics I find it hard to come to any conlusion.
Can anyone help?"
"""""oldatlantic"", why would you pinpoint immigration as the cause of this problem? It has little to do with it. I'm a teenager myself and I see this issue surrounding me; often immigrants are the kinder people that I meet. I agree wholeheartedly with the author's premise: that adults often forget that the teenage society is as complex, in terms of personality and so on, as the adult one.
The fact that teens are viewed as a uniform group of people, a target market you could say, is the root of this problem; to think we are all the same, that we all have the same opportunities and knowledge and desires. To think that we are inherently evil and need to be monitored; even to think that we are all equally naive and stupid. We're human beings and of course there are going to be seedy ones, daft ones, violent ones, intelligent ones and so on and on and on... but stop trying to base these differences on race, because race has nothing to do with it. Poverty and inequality, however, do.
until the world of adults becomes less violent, hypocritical, and divisive the world of youth will continue to reflect the conditions under which they have been brought up... each person will react uniquely to these conditions and make choices of their own.""
""Dakini: mkddi (5.33 am), 2nd post
Interesting, refreshing comments, full of common sense. A teenager, too!""
thanks Dakini! I feel like common sense has been lost in this thread... A frightening amount of posts have made stupid, condescending generalizations about teens. This is really an issue where teens themselves should be involved in the discussion; there is after all no real dividing line between adults and teens that is not artificial.
I found Sourpus's quote interesting, and agree: I think the greedy, money machine that is capitalism has run its course and produced a society where it is hard for people, let alone teens, to sort between what's meaningful and what's stupid. Overkill advertising and overconsumption, has stupefied a number of people from citizens into consumers; it is incredibly hard for a young person not to be absorbed into bleak consumer culture when there are so many intensive advertising campaigns invading their lives. I think ours is one of the first generations to be so harrassed by the media (ultraviolence and media ""desensitization"", raising us on McDonald's ads, and so on), and the effect is beginning to show."
"Why must we always find excuses for the bad things people do? Poverty might justify shoplifting - but not murder, homophobia or harassment. If you get carte blanche to do anything, you will go ahead. Lack of socialisation AND adequate punishment is the problem: whether with teenagers or white collar crime. When people are sure they will get away with it and feel no shame in hurting others, they will proceed without care. Even if the causes of social disintegration are complex and varied, surely human behaviour hasn't changed that much when it comes to the basic things: loving vs hating other human beings or being generous vs greedy.
I get so tired of social workers and social ""scientists"" blabbing on about the causes of crime. It's as if we have built an entire industry around crime studies that needs to be maintained and fed with our taxes. People who stab or insult someone should be held accountable: whether they are 10 year old white boys or 60 year old pensioners of Caribbean descent. And the victims are the ones who should receive care, validation and attention, not the aggressors. But why do I constantly feel like I'm spitting against the wind whenever I suggest this in a public forum?"
"_AT_Pumpkinsboy: I totally agree with you. Where are the facts, and why are they not made openly public once a year? By *openly public*, I mean published twice a year in every newspaper, and broadcast on every public radio and television station.
They are NOT published of course, because we have created a politically correct society which attempts to stifle such debate. And what is true for the UK is now true for most of Europe. In the absence of any facts, how can you create any solutions? Furthermore, this issue is not just about economics ... it is more about how Western culture has rapidly changed during the last 40 years. I have been to many poor countries around the world, and in most cases the local people were not violent ... in spite of their poverty.
However, the massive growth of the global media industry and the noticeable increase in violent television programming, violent video games, violent gangsta rap, violent pornography are something society needs to deal with. Free speech is one thing, but when it appears to have a detrimental influence on the behaviour of both kids and adults, then perhaps the time has come to clean up the media business. This has nothing to do with human rights and freedom of speech, but it does have a lot to do with media companies making a lot of money. Billions of dollars ... and we all suffer the fall-out.
There are still some people who refuse to believe that violence on the tv, cinema or computer screen effects human behaviour. However, during the last 30 years a wealth of scientific data has now provided enough evidence to strongly suggest a link between violent behaviour and the consumption of violent media. We know need to act upon this, and tighten up the restrictions ... and yes, that would probably mean censorship of our beloved internet as well.
Secondly, we need to need to look at the role of prisons. What the point of sending someone to prison, if all they do is hang out with other young criminals in the community rooms? Periods of solitary confinement with no TV, no radio, and no other contact with fellow inmates ... but lots of books and some educational incentives would probably produce wonders. However, this would not be possible under the present European Convention on Human Rights.
This is a complex problem, which requires some complex solutions. But its not going to get any better until we start trying out a number of different approaches and combinations.
What we cannot tolerate is more violence, aimply because our politicans do not want to act."
"_AT_Pumpkinsboy: I totally agree with you. Where are the facts, and why are they not made openly public once a year? By *openly public*, I mean published twice a year in every newspaper, and broadcast on every public radio and television station.
They are NOT published of course, because we have created a politically correct society which attempts to stifle such debate. And what is true for the UK is now true for most of Europe. In the absence of any facts, how can you create any solutions? Furthermore, this issue is not just about economics ... it is more about how Western culture has rapidly changed during the last 40 years. I have been to many poor countries around the world, and in most cases the local people were not violent ... in spite of their poverty.
However, the massive growth of the global media industry and the noticeable increase in violent television programming, violent video games, violent gangsta rap, violent pornography are something society needs to deal with. Free speech is one thing, but when it appears to have a detrimental influence on the behaviour of both kids and adults, then perhaps the time has come to clean up the media business. This has nothing to do with human rights and freedom of speech, but it does have a lot to do with media companies making a lot of money. Billions of dollars ... and we all suffer the fall-out.
There are still some people who refuse to believe that violence on the tv, cinema or computer screen effects human behaviour. However, during the last 30 years a wealth of scientific data has now provided enough evidence to strongly suggest a link between violent behaviour and the consumption of violent media. We know need to act upon this, and tighten up the restrictions ... and yes, that would probably mean censorship of our beloved internet as well.
Secondly, we need to need to look at the role of prisons. What the point of sending someone to prison, if all they do is hang out with other young criminals in the community rooms? Periods of solitary confinement with no TV, no radio, and no other contact with fellow inmates ... but lots of books and some educational incentives would probably produce wonders. However, this would not be possible under the present European Convention on Human Rights.
This is a complex problem, which requires some complex solutions. But its not going to get any better until we start trying out a number of different approaches and combinations.
What we cannot tolerate is more violence, simply because our politicans do not want to act."
"redafiyathank you for your kind comments.
I hope we can move beyond the lunacy of extremes - I fear most posters are still wedded to them,just as voltz seems to be wedded to the �ts all the white persons fault�argument as well as completely misquoting.THe UK exhibits far more equality than ANY african country both in income distribution and in treatment of minorities so ,frankly, I wont be lectured by an African wealthy enough to afford a computer (which indicates their upper middle or upper class status). I wonder what voltz thinks of Mugabe ?
African (especially nigerian and ghanaian ) boys are often picked on because they appear to be acting in �non black�behavior such as working diligently and their culture is not considered as a �cool�culture -as compared to the Jamaican culture ,a culture so pervasive that many white london youths appear to affect a jamaican-London accent (ala ali g).they are an easy target in the unpleasant chaoticatmosphere of Inner city schools and indeed because they lack the �race�element of the infamous Eltham murder are unlikley to be properly addressed.Indeed race baiters such as Lee Jasper have directly condemned investigation into carribean on african violence (presumably because it�snot about himbeing a victim).
I had the great privelage of being next door neigbour to a british black woman of jamaican background who was married to a Nigerian man.She is tragically now dead of cancer but my interaction with her familly was very informative.
Her eldest son rejected any nigerian culture and adopted a carribean accent even though his mother and sisters spoke in a standard south accent accent.He was imprisoned in juvenile units for street robbery and burglary and lost a close friend to a stabbing. His sisters ,on the other hand, studied hard and the eldest has just finished a degreefrom Nottingham university.The criminal eldest son was actually extremely affable and very friendly to mean harboured no bad feeling to white people and claimed never to have experienced �racism� he did harbour deeply antagonistic feelings towards asians,though and had a poor opinion of Africans whom he mocked.His views seemed to be standard amongst his friends who I found similarly affable even though they had distinct violent criminal pastimes."
I don't know how much truth there is in this as its only hearsay but I have a friend who does mental health work in London and comes into contact with many ethnic minorities, I was told by her that the problem seems to be the newer African immigrants from places like Somalia are coming into contact with the longer standing Caribbeans who have mostly been born here. Usually a threat from the Caribbeans is enough to put fear into others but the Somalians are used to threats so just don't back down. The names of the murdered boys do seem to be more African than Caribbean.
"""Jewish folk are often white within a country of often white people . The daily racism , xenophobia and superiority of the host people will be nothing like as bad for them as for black folk. Black people were treated as the worlds slaves for millennia. Racism here and abroad ensures the role models are limited to sport and entertainment.""
It's comments like this that form part of the problem, in the same way that the terrorism conducted by a minority of Muslims is blamed on so-called Islamophobia. No one seems to want to take responsibility for their actions anymore: it's always someone else's fault why I'm behaving in this way. The fact is that there is a big gun/knife problem in some parts of the black community - note the word ""some"" -and anyone who suggests otherwise or blames it all on racism is avoiding the issue.
As many of the posters have noted, violence amongst young people has always been around, but few would surely argue that in the last decade we've seen a worrying escalation in violence. Once it was feet and fists but now it's a knife or a gun if you simply ""diss"" somebody by looking at them the wrong way.
The causes are many, here are a just a few:
1. Fractured families. Not everyone brought up with a single parent turns out to be a violent person thank God, but for some of these violent young people, the lack of a stable family with two parents and in particular a father figure, means they lack discipline. They are ""out of control."" 2. Education Many of these violent young people are ill-educated with poor prospects. Why are they so disengaged from education? 3. A coarsensing of society. Look around you, the parking dispute that turns ugly, the argument over a trivial issue that results in violence. There are a lot of angry people out there - why? 4. The fear to discipline young people - at home, in school and out in society. People are reluctant to chastise anyone behaving in an anti-social or selfish manner - the person who puts his feet on the train seat or plays his music system too loud. The result: people feel they can do what they want and not worry about the consequences. 5. The lack of respect for authority, whether it be parents, teachers or the police. 6. A culture of human rights which some interpret as ""my right to behave as I like and you can't stop me."" 7. Police hampered by rules, regulations and the threat of disciplinary action, especially when dealing with people from ethnic minorities. 8. The ""Me"" society replacing the ""We"" society. Yes, Thatcher played a part in this, but so has mass immigration and globalisation. Many people now feel like strangers in their own communities. Coupled with this, they have neighbours who speak little or no English. Where is the communication, and from there, the understanding and the empathy? 9. Lack of political will. Politicians talk the talk but never walk the walk. Labour is great at introducing ""tough"" new measures, but never backs them with the resources needed to carry them out. 10 Alienation. Yes, racism will play a part on some cases, but the fact is that most black people don't carry guns or knives, so why do some of those who feel aggrieved feel a need to stab or shoot other people? 11. Pleasure. Yes, some people actually enjoy being part of a gang and inflicting violence on others. 12. Drugs. Often at the root of much crime.
I have to say that I'm extremely pessimistic about the future for our society. I hope I'm wrong."
Why are the gangsters predominantly black? Because in areas loke Hackney, Notting Hill etc mainly Black working class families are under pressure from white middle class yuppies, and the collapse of the inner city manual labour economy. It is no accident that it is from these areas the stories originate. The yuppies would like the gangs [& their families] "ethnically cleansed" from their bijou victorian neighborhoods with rising property prices; just as the white working class have been from Chiltern and Cotswold villages and small towns. Working class violence, born of frustration and police harassment have existed for a long time. Remember TEDDY BOYS? FOOTBALL HOOLIGANS? 1930s Sheffield and racetrack gangs? These were almost entirely "white". as were those infamous descendants of jewish immigrants the Kray twins! Not to mention the thoroughly English Charlie ["nail his balls to the floor"] Richardson! Crime, gangs and violence have been part of the working class life from the outset. Not surprising when you look at the value society puts on wealth, and the admiration extended to those who get it! [sorry lets be PC "create it"]The Krays were feted by the establishment, until they lost control of the East End. Charlie R. suffered the same fate because in the words of one senior CID officer "he could no longer keep the local ni**ers in line".
"Cynic666 made good points that apply to myself. Fife is mental and it has utterly nothing to do with immigration.
London may be a little different because of the massive mix of cultures. I have black and white friends down there and one militant arab pal who I fight with regularly (physically and philisophically) and they say the polarisation of cultures has never been more apparent. The war does not help the situation at all. Lack of opportunity is also obviously an issue but this is exactly the same back in Scotland.
I work with youths and some of them see the army as a good option! Unfortunatly, sometimes it's difficult to argue against this. It's that or they go to jail for some series of minor offences. What to do? What do dissaffected youth want?
Music, sport or art. All are healthy creative outlets, stimulate culture and community spirit and are a lot of fun. Put money, time and resources into this and you kill two birds with one stone: potential nutters dont fulfill their potential and they contribute to society."
"if you put this into google ""But between 1950 and 1993, when the crime rate rose tenfold in England, it remained level in Japan,""
There is an academic report stating this. I am loathe to put a link to it as last time I put a link on here I was banned. I was wrongly accused of being a member of the BNP and banned. Bit like the Maccarthy era here."
"Old Atlantic
Those are US statistics
Here are some UK ones http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/prisnov03.pdf
then go to prison by ethnic group, couldnt find a later report that is 2003
interestingly percentage of whites in prison, 75% Blacks 17% which when you think blacks only make up 2.5% of the UK is rather a large proportion, somewhere around 8 times that of whites proportionately."
"Thanks Cynic666
""Third point. Since a lot of ""society"" quite clearly sees *all* young people as a problem - then I genuinely don't blame young guys for taking the obvious step and being prepared to defend themselves. If the police and wider society clearly isn't going to protect you, then you have to do it yourself. Carrying a weapon is never a clever thing to do - but it's an obvious fear based reaction. If you live in an area where ""the bad guys"" all do it, then it will seem like the only choice.
Final point (sorry for the rant in fact). We were all young once - I think a lot of people forget that.""
Don't be sorry, it wasn't a rant just a bunch of common sense.
On this site, not so long ago, there was an article talking about a couple of people who do really get it re the pressures kids are under in and outside the playground. Particularly in todays consumer, egotistical, image, driven society. They are:
humanutopia.com
Check them out. They walk the walk by going into schools and making a difference for kids, Both bullies, bullied, class disrupters, kids basically.. They deal with the foundation on which everything else is built - giving kids back some self respect, helping them realsise how important they are as role models for those younger than them, and showing them how easy it is to confront the pressures they face and having control over their own direction. Nuff said.
""whose driving your car?""
Thanks Graham & Carlo, still rabbiting on about you to everyone who will listen. On the doorstep, at school, local council, in parks. Everyone wants to hear the message because we're all concerned about our kids."
"_AT_Gaia
""Anyone found in possession of either should be sent to detention and caned.""
Thats next Saturday in Hackney, costs �15 to get in though."
A fascinating debate. I don't think these murders demonstrate any pattern of criminality amongst the young black male community, in the same way that I don't think peodphilia (if youlook at high profile cases) is an indication of criminality amongst middle aged white males. To suggest otherwise is a bit silly and completely ignores the fact that these crimes are committed by a tiny percentage of the total number of black people in this country and that most black people are as, if not more, shocked and appalled about these cases than the 'wider community'. I do think we need to ask serious questions about why some people of all races feel that the only way that they can solve disputes or earn respect is through violent actions, but I guess that's a bit too complicated and it's easier to dismiss this as a black issue and leave it that.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/prisnov03.pdf It appears that 1% of the population is committing 17% of the crimes that are serious enough to result in prison? Or is it that white criminals are perhaps smarter and don't get caught as often?
"Novelist - you dafty. White people don't get prosecuted and sentenced as often by the WHITE (institutionally racist) police and white legal system.
Amazing how some dumb folk can miss the bleedin' obvious!"
"""if you put this into google ""But between 1950 and 1993, when the crime rate rose tenfold in England, it remained level in Japan,""
There is an academic report stating this. I am loathe to put a link to it as last time I put a link on here I was banned. I was wrongly accused of being a member of the BNP and banned. Bit like the Maccarthy era here.""
I don't think it's wise to compare any figures for Japan to Europe. Socially, Japanese society is still very much as 1950s culture was here and in the US; society and the sexes are very rigidly stratified still, though signs are they are changing. Japan still has the ""nail that sticks out gets hammered down"" protocol. Kids live in fear of screwing up and failing their families, mums still thump their kids (one mum hit her 5 year old across the head with a clenched fist because she thought he was being rude to me: it was very hard not to remonstrate with her) and threaten to withhold love as punishment, and the police are very, very right wing. Three of my white and non-Japanese friends were arrested in a space of 18 months, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The US soldiers in Japan often do commit horrible crimes and the US is complicit in covering up for them but Japan needs the US as a shield between it and North Korea. When you consider that so many US teens enter the army through lack of choice, poor education and desperation, you can understand why they feel so arrogant and free to rape, rob and murder."
"HenryB61 - "" I am loathe to put a link to it as last time I put a link on here I was banned. I was wrongly accused of being a member of the BNP and banned. Bit like the Maccarthy era here.""
Methinks you doth protest too much Henry. First you link directly to the BNP site, now you post a quote that will Google you straight to the site.......for someone who's not a member, you spend an awful lot of time reading BNP propoganda and trying to persuade others to. Come on, you were proud to announce your loyalties on the other thread, we won't tell....
Goodfairy - Exactly. Black men are far more likely to receive custodial sentences, because of institutionalised racism in the judicial system: they are more likely to be stopped by the police, more likely to be prosecuted, more likely to be convicted, and hence are disproportionately represented in the prison system."
"Wow. What an incredibly depressing thread.
The demonisation of young people and young people's culture is something I've noticed for a long time. It starts early - remember the hue and cry about Pokemon? Anything children are enthusiastic about, from tv to video games, seems to get some people riled. I actually suspect that young people were as they ever were. Bored aggressive young men are always going to be a problem, _and they always were_. Clever societies find ways of channeling that freeform aggression.
I especially resent the kind of hysterical reporting which makes young people out to be a bunch of dangerous criminals. Consequently young people get the rough end of things: they get harraased when they are doing totally innocent things. My daughter, for example, was having a picnic in the public gardens with her friends when some old biddy rang the police because she thought they were doing drugs. They were not doing drugs, they were eating a birthday cake. As the police discovered. Such incidents make me incredibly angry: it's because of media coverage of gangs that create an atmosphere of fear, that means young people can't gather anywhere or do anything without being seen to be threatening.
This is the kind of attitude perfectly nice, middle class kids can attract. Add this prejudice to disadvantage - whether it's race or income - the kinds of attitudes expressed in some of these replies - and something is going to go badly wrong for many young people.
And all those calling for young people to be whipped and sent to jail seem to have forgotten that young people are, well, young. Teens are still children, even if they don't think so. Children sometimes do stupid or dangerous things. Our responsibility towards them as adults doesn't consist of making them even more afraid than they are, or visiting dire punishments on them that will scar them for the rest of their lives. It's rather more complex - and maybe it's just harder work - than that."
Bang head against brick wall.
"ooops! HenryB61 - Apologies. I retract what I said re your quote linking to the BNP site, because it doesn't. I made the assumption from what you said in your post that it would, but I didn't check until after I posted.(I blame you, I was wary to check it 'cos I didn't want to end up on said site) Anyway, you got me. For God's sake post your links in future.
BTW - Were you told your banning was because of the BNP link? I only ask because Steve Tyler was posting on here at xmas, he didn't get banned or deleted, and he makes no secret of his BNP membership."
"Good call Theatrenotes.
As I mentioned before, my job is working with 12 - 18 year olds in a youth cafe. It simply gives them a place to hang out if they want. What makes my blood curdle is ""community minded do gooders"" calling for the cafe to be shut down simply because young people hang out there!!!
My question is always: where the hell are they gonna congregate?
Treat the youth as idiots and they will respond as idiots. Every time. But if you engage in an unpatronizing manner (Police please take note) then progress can be made, issues resolved. If you are really that terrified then take up boxing or something.
Don't fear them. They are us."
"Redsquare, one of our resident gnat-brains, quite often cracks me up, but when he associates the rise of violent pornography with the welfare state he has me in stitches.
Which government agency was responsible for the production of this stuff, Redsquare? The Department of Erections?"
"olddon WROTE : ///Why are the gangsters predominantly black? Because in areas loke Hackney, Notting Hill etc mainly Black working class families are under pressure from white middle class yuppies, and the collapse of the inner city manual labour economy. It is no accident that it is from these areas the stories originate. The yuppies would like the gangs [& their families] ""ethnically cleansed"" from their bijou victorian neighborhoods ...////.
It's ALL so clear now....it's ....*the white man* isn't it? I mean, the white man wants all of *THEM* ethnically cleansed! I mean, it's ALL so clear now, the whole thing....why? I mean, why didn't I see it all along?...
///Working class violence, born of frustration and police harassment have existed for a long time. Remember TEDDY BOYS? FOOTBALL HOOLIGANS? 1930s Sheffield and racetrack gangs? These were almost entirely ""white"".///
Of course! It's the white man again with his innate evil and his violence -- the white man MAKES the poor black man hurt others...yes, of course, it's all so clear now....how could I have doubted for a moment, how, oh how, could I have doubted such an obvious truth , staring me in the face?
Oh well, that's nothing to worry about then is it? Got that one sorted! Right, back to reading my Guardian...what? What's that you say? Another black man knifed someone in Elephant and Castle? Oh not to worry, Oldone on CIF has explained it all you see, and it's all just so simple....you see, the murderer wasn't really black at all, it was some kind of illusion that isn't nice to think about, and anyway, even if he was black, well, I mean, SO WHAT right, there was a white man behind it all anyway, so not to worry.....is tea ready yet? I am done with all this thinking....you see, for a moment back there, can you believe it, someone actually suggested that not ALL crimes were the middle class white man's fault! I mean, can you believe it?Yes, that's what they actually suggested! But now I know that isn't true,and that the white man wants to ....err.....urrm....but lots of appartments and other stuff like that, so I feel so much better now...."
"Theatrenotes wrote:
///Wow. What an incredibly depressing thread.//
Errr...well, I don't know about you, but I thought the succession of youth on youth murders was actually more depressing, but hey, maybe that's just me....
////The demonisation of young people and young people's culture is something I've noticed for a long time. It starts early - remember the hue and cry about Pokemon? Anything children are enthusiastic about, from tv to video games, seems to get some people riled. I actually suspect that young people were as they ever were.///
Boy, again, I see it all now...I mean, there really is nothing to worry about is there? I mean, those bad old people complaining about Pokemon and Ninja Turtles, yeah, right on, and before that, those nasty old people even complained about Bruce Lee! And now, they aren't just complaining about Pokemon, you know, they even say there is a problem cos young kids of 12 are murdering each other...but of course, it's all just demonisation isn't it...I mean remember how they slagged of Pokemon, and they even slagged off my cousin for eating a doughnut in the local park, so you see, it's all just unfair scapegoating and there really isn't any problem at all...
God, I feel so much better now...."
"_AT_Pumpkinsboy ""This is a fascinating debate that I am following with interest.
But what I want is STATISTICS.""
Part 1
First we have the already referenced statistics from the Home Office (2003) with regards to the breakdown of the General Prison Population by Ethnicity
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/prisnov03.pdf
�Among male British nationals in the prison population 83% were white, 12% were black, 3% were South Asian (i.e. Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi) and 2% belonged to Chinese or other ethnic groups. For female British nationals in the prison population, 83% were white, 13% were black, 1% were south Asian and 3% belonged to Chinese or other ethnic groups.�
Now some general information on the Socio-economic breakdown of the UK.
http://www.businessballs.com/demographicsclassifications.htm
NRS social grade definitions (UK)
social grade social status occupation A upper middle class higher managerial, administrative or professional B middle class intermediate managerial, administrative or professional C1 lower middle class supervisory or clerical, junior managerial, administrative or professional C2 skilled working class skilled manual workers D working class semi and unskilled manual workers E those at lowest level of subsistence state pensioners or widows (no other earner), casual or lowest grade workers
Estimate of how these bands correlate to income and proportion of UK adult population
A �50k and over 3.8% B �35-50k 22.1% C1 �25-35k 28.9% C2 �15-25k 20.6% D �7-15k 16.2% E �5-7k 8.4%
Put more simply we can say approx 25% of the UK population can be defined as �Low Income�(D & E).
Another Set of Data, CACI Acorn profiles of Great Britain, has a very detailed report which describes in great length the socio-economic profile of the UK and importantly provides some detail as to the ethnic profile of each group
http://www.businessballs.com/freespecialresources/acorn%20demographics%202005.pdf
(this is quite a large file btw)
Page 101 states
�Multi-Ethnic, Purpose Built Estates
These are some of the most densely populated urban areas in the country, and are characterised by a young, multi-ethnic population living in purpose built blocks of flats, some of which are high-rise. Over 20% of the population are Afro-Caribbean.
They rent their small, one and two bedroom flats from the council and housing associations, and there is a high degree of overcrowding. Almost 60% of households are single people, including some single pensioners. There are average levels of children, but more than half of them live in single parent households.
Unemployment levels are high.�
Now some data from the National Statistics office about the number of children in low-income households
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=7449&Pos=8&ColRank=2&Rank=1000
�Children are disproportionately present in low-income households: 21 per cent of children (2.7 million) were living in households with below 60 per cent of median income (before deduction of housing costs) in Great Britain in 2001/02. This proportion rose steeply between 1979 and 1981 from 12 per cent to 18 per cent and continued to rise to reach a peak of 27 per cent in 1991/92 and 1992/93. It fell back during the first half of the 1990s but then rose again to 25 per cent in 1996/97 and 1997/98, since when there has again been a gradual fall. If housing costs are deducted from income, the pattern of annual change during the 1990s is much the same, but at a level around 10 percentage points higher, resulting in 3.8 million children living in low-income households in 2001/02 on this basis.�
Now from the National Statistics Office, the breakdown of the UK population by Ethnicity
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=273
White 92.1 Mixed 1.2 Asian 4.0 Black 2.0 Chinese 0.4 Other 0.4
Now some data on employment levels
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/article.asp?id=983
Working-age employment rates 2002/03 All White Non-White United Kingdom 74.0% 75.5% 57.3%
Working-age employment rates for individual non-White ethnic groups 2002/03 Mixed Indian Pak/Bang Black Other United Kingdom 59.8% 68.4% 42.9% 60.2% 55.2%
You also have some data on low income households by ethnicity
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=269
�A substantial proportion (49 per cent) of Black Non-Caribbean households also lived on low incomes after housing costs had been deducted.�"
"Part 2
Now the last piece of the Jigsaw
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=1167
�Lone-parent families were most prevalent among Other Black families � 64 per cent. Over 45 per cent of Black Caribbean, Black African and Mixed families were headed by a lone-parent, compared with 25 per cent of White families.�
Ok if we put this all together, what do we have.
The Prison data shows a disproportionate number of Blacks making up the prison population, 13% v�s 2% of general population.
However if we now look at the socio-economic side of things 25% of the overall population can be classified as low income. Inner City London in particular is characterized by the fact that Blacks are 10 times more likely to live in the most disadvantaged areas. The data also shows that only 60% of Blacks are employed compared to 75% of Whites.
The economic reality that Blacks are much more likely to be raised in low-income households must then be taken in conjunction with the fact that Child poverty is on the increase and Black children are almost twice as likely as White children to be raised in single parent families.
In summary, Blacks are significantly more likely to be imprisoned then Whites, however this can be attributed purely to socio-economic factors.
Put simply if you are child from a poor broken home you are more likely to commit crime then if raised in a secure middle-class environment � not exactly rocket science"
"Hi small insect here,
I do so love _AT_questionnarie and its elegant turn of phrase.
More revealing, is its inability to understand that multiple effects can arise from a single cause, perhaps an idea or philosophy, depending on context.
Well here's the idea. The contempt held by the elitist left for the less-priveleged indigenous community in Britain, the ""chavs"" in current parlance, a contempt I do not share.
I find it disturbing that the statisticians among us use ""Blacks"" and ""Whites"" presumably as shorthand for ""Black People"" and ""White People"" whatever that means.
It is the first step to dehumanization.
Second only to being called a gnat"
"I see we're still having trouble with our ""lefts"" and our ""rights"". I think the culture people are complaining about is imported black gang culture that's typified by gangsta' rap. That doesn't mean that other cultures (races) don't have their gangs -- some really nasty ones in LA are Vietnamese but their violence is narrowly targeted -- its the ""take over the streets and demand respect or we'll bust a cap in yo' ass"" mindset. Addressing the problem is either going to run the risk of being called a racist or mired in labrinth of political correctness. It shouldn't be a problem in England but judging by the recent threads on slavery it seems that England's imported the whole US black experience.
In case anyone thinks that I'm using the term 'black' as some kind of overreaching generalization I might remark that there are lots of black people (and latinos) where I live who are not gangbangers, they're ordinary people. Ask them what they think and they'll say the same things as a white person. Its not a racial thing, its not elitist superiority, that's just BS -- its a culture that doesn't belong that's threatening everybody's peace and security."
"MARTIN USHER
## England's imported the whole US black experience. ##
** Whats the word on the street Huggy? **
"" We need more black pimp grasses like me, Constable Starky ""
B"
"_AT_MSwoman
I wasn't told why I was banned, I sent an email and asked why but didn't get a response, its no big deal though, easy enough to get back. I haven't really got the BNP as my home page that was a joke, maybe that did it.
Looking at the massive rise in crime since the 50's in my view though doesn't have that much to do with immigration. It more to do with the marginalisation of men, in the family at least. They just have no authority in their own home now. If they don't do what they are told they are out and if lucky get a bed sit and visiting rights every other Saturday."
"I'd like to say a couple of things on this subject. But before I do, I'd like to qualify myself a little, as we are speaking of violence and violent kids, I think a bit of experience in these areas helps.
I'm 42 and come from a very violent family background, went into children's' homes at the age of 12 and moved into my own apartment at 16. The are I come from is called Wallsend (Swan Hunter's Ship Yards) and Whitley Bay, both of which are in the North-East of England.
Where I grew up we had gangs. Just the local kind of stuff. Kids who lived near each other, and not necessarily from the same school. I was a catholic in a protestant area. All my mates were Protestant. Not that it ever came into anything, as we'd all known each other from being toddlers.
I was a quiet kid, and had the crap kicked out of me daily, as I was a ""child of sin"". That is to say, born out of marriage. In those days it was a terrible thing. My Grandmother, who was bringing me up, felt I had to be cleansed of my sin, and a regularly bust nose, or bald patch on the top of my head after a good hair-pulling session, was a prime solution. So bad was it that I remember standing outside of the church when my aunts and uncles got married, as my grandmother wouldn't permit me to enter.
At twelve, this quiet retiring, shy boy - me - placed himself in the care of the local authority for his own protection.
A couple of months after entering children's' homes, I one day was sitting at a window, in a secure building I shared with 39 other kids, watching an older and bigger boy outside kicking the living daylights out of another younger kid. We were his prey. A thought occurred. I thought to myself, ""If nobody stops this f*&^er it'll come around to my turn again. So, I decided I should go out and confront him. I walked out , and distinctly remember the coldness and stickiness of my hands. The banging of my heart in my chest was like I'd just run a Marathon; and my knees really where jumping up and down. I thought I'd pass out before I got close enough to do anything to him.
However, I somehow managed to keep it together and as he knelt astride the other boy, punching his face with all his might, I launched a running kick to the underside of his jaw, and which launched him into the air. Immediately he landed I was on top of him knocking the crap out of him. Several staff members had to drag me from him.
He NEVER touched me, or another kid in my presence, as long as we were in the same home together.
I went on from that to defending myself and others from bullies on an almost daily basis, until I left care at 16.
It took me till I was 27 years old before I managed to get a real grip on myself.
In those days we had the belt in schools and it was employed regularly. I don't care how tough any kid thinks he is, when they get given the belt on the palm of their hand - publicly - for being a bully. Everybody, but everybody, sees their watery eyes as they glaze.
I learned a couple of things living in children's' homes. One was that there were a couple of ways one could go in one's life. One could become a criminal, as many did, or one could commit suicide - as many did, or one could educate oneself to, and thereby be able to THINK of other alternatives for your proposed future way of life. On could think of alternatives for one's behaviour.
The other things I learned the hard way, were that there are some kids you can talk to, and they'll listen and learn. There are other's you can talk to and it goes in one ear and directly out of the other. And there are still others whom you will have to slap just to get them to listen in the first instance.
Violence and intelligence go hand in hand. I'm talking about street violence, not nation violence between two states. Usually the kids who are violent, are also as thick as shit. My own half-brother can barely write his name, and spent more time in prison, than he did with his children in their formative years.
I have listened people say some stupid stuff, over the years, about violence or violent situations. Usually the people who say the stupidest stuff have never even had a slap on the back of their legs, and are unfamiliar with the mid-set of a violent individual.
I think one of the stupidest I ever had the misfortune to listen to was, ""If you don't want to fight him, just tell him that you don't want to.""
Yeah?! And like what? He'll just say, ""I honor and respect your opinion not to fight and congratulate you upon your wise decision."" Or will he just say, ""I don't give a f*&^k what you want. Coz I'm gonna rip your head of and sh*t down your f$%^king neck, you twat!""?
In my experience, it is always the latter.
So, what am I trying to say?
I'm saying that there are some kids who just need the benefit of the belt. Who need to have their arses kicked. Why should they behave well in school, for example? ""Oh, wow! You're going to give me a detention, Sir. How awfully worrying!""
Spare the rod."
"Berchmans
April 8, 2007 6:46 AM
"" Jews -sympathy because of an astonishing PR machine.""
I think stats could have something to do with it too?
A good friend of mine - a Jewish peace activist came to the US to a new job only a short time ago; was escorting his girl-friend home in a good area & got knifed to death trying to protect her from being raped by a gang. Colour is irrelevant here altho' I believe again, there are crime stats. Similar thing happened to a young chap coming home on the London tube recently - he gave the two boys after his phone & wallet everything & they still killed him. It is an increasingly violent world we live in - if it's not knives it's guns & it's v v shocking. The US is more violent than UK but it's getting increasingly like that back home in the UK. And kindly don't take this opportunity to call me racist either, okay. I haven't mentioned anything about race here tho' I could've. And the same applies to my other posts, too.
There has probably always been violence on the streets though when I was a kid we played outside & there were never any probs of violence. With my own kids it was always a worry but thank goodness they never got into any trouble. Sef-esteem, poverty - all have to do with violence but there are many who come from v poor homes who do not turn to violence. Drugs is a biggy today. We don't go downtown for this reason. I think parents today have little authority - it's necessary but in balance."
I thought the posters blaming Thatcher were hilarious. I mean, I thought it was all Stanley Baldwin's fault and the gold standard.
"Hi gnat's brain here, again
Far me it for me a tiny insect to comment but there seems to be a view that there has been a breakdown of effective parenting and schooling, socialisation for want of a better word, for what is surely a small minority of the population, with very unfortunate consequences.
I'm afraid to say this is an inevitable result of the progressive agenda formulated by the Labour elite - Jenkins, Williams, Crosland and their fellow travellers in the late 60's and pursued in education and social policy ever since. Unfotunately, much of Britain was torn down at the same time to create a concrete wasteland, an awful exercise that John Prescott seems keen to repeat.
It maybe argued quite reasonably that some of these policies have benefited many in some way but in no sense have they benefited the most disadvantaged in society.
The current traumas are not a result of the Thatcher years - the effects were already in evidence by the late 70's."
"Slipwrist- Aha we meet again! I dont agree with your conclusions, but a powerful story of your life. Good for you for posting it.
Now, where were we on Israel.....
(only joking)"
"redsquare:
""I'm afraid to say this is an inevitable result of the progressive agenda formulated by the Labour elite - Jenkins, Williams, Crosland and their fellow travellers in the late 60's and pursued in education and social policy ever since. Unfotunately, much of Britain was torn down at the same time to create a concrete wasteland, an awful exercise that John Prescott seems keen to repeat.""
Yes, I believe you have a valid point there. Indeed, many of these so-called ""progressive"" approaches and methods have very much bounced back on us today.
Sadly, I believe these constructs not only persist today, but have become intrinsic in all-party policy planning. Moreover, they have also grown into the all-pervasive and ever expanding ""PC"" politic within which society is drip-by-drop drowning itself."
"GrandOldMan
""Slipwrist- Aha we meet again! I dont agree with your conclusions, but a powerful story of your life. Good for you for posting it.""
Nice to see you again.
It's OK that you disagree with my conclusion. I expect most people to do so.
Violence isn't rational. And when I say violence, I don't mean the pulling of a trigger, or the dropping of a bomb. I've been shot at, and to be honest, it phased me far less than anyone else I know who has been in the same position. I never had the trembles, and I never had a bad dream about it afterwards. I simply went for a beer, a chat, and then slept.
What I'm talking about is the hands-on kind of violence that the majority of people in modern societies. for the most part seldom, if ever, come into contact with. However, even when they do come into contact with it; for that majority, it is the consequences of violent acts perpetrated against themselves that they experience. There are few real perpetrators, but they effect so many.
Living with, or trying to understand the consequences of violence is not the same as perpetrating. Although many of us feel angry, few really manifest it in a blatant act of brutality.
Violence through the eyes of the perpetrator illuminates a whole new world. A world vastly different from those who represent the norm, whatever that may be to you. To a perpetrator of violence, violence is not an act or consequence. Rather, it is an expression. It is raw and white-hot. It is as much an expression, and more so due to its emotional content, than all the eloquence of a well educated mind.
Having lived a violent life, and also in the latter part of life experienced peace. I feel the two worlds aren't necessarily exclusive to each other; but, they are certainly so different that my experience tells me that the majority of people I have met, and meet, would crumble under daily personal violence.
I realise it seems I'm now way off track of the original story, but I want to tell you that I'm not. This isn't a digression. I just wanted to explain somehow that violence from the delivery-end, not the receiving-end, comes from a radically different world view. And that it is, in fact, a lifestyle. A lifestyle that thankfully the majority of society usually don't chose to live, and seldom experience. That seeing it from the inside, and living it from the inside, generates a whole new perspective on the nature of people in general.
After my experiences as a child, teen, and young man, it was not until I was about 27 I began to feel that I wasn't behind enemy lines. What I mean is. I was always hot to trot. You just had to look at me the wrong way and I'd launch into a very cold and purposeful pattern of violence that scared many a big wan to watch.
I was lucky, actually. I met a couple of very smart people who assisted me in my education, and helped me talk myself back to a more moderate temperature. Most kids aren't so lucky.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, I feel I can comfortably say, ""OK! I accept that you disagree with my conclusions. Why on Earth would you agree with them? Unless, you'd been in that place too. I am used to this particular disagreement from people, as this is a subject which has played a major, formative, role in my life. In a way, I'm glad you can disagree with my conclusions - for your sake, as it isn't a nice place to have lived.""
I'm not crying about this, by the way. Just sharing."
"I am really amazed how thing has been brewing - you can see examples of this pretty horrible behaviour on Youtube, viz
these examples paint a very bleak picture
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f6LMpUPRjVQ
but here is rather good piss take of the above.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=a3TDOYlyJ7c&mode=related&search=
on the bus:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oPjjVN2pC4
at the bus stop:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5FjjdXa7jI"
"Brobat
""I am really amazed how thing has been brewing - you can see examples of this pretty horrible behaviour on Youtube, viz
these examples paint a very bleak picture""
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f6LMpUPRjVQ
but here is rather good piss take of the above.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=a3TDOYlyJ7c&mode=related&search=
on the bus:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oPjjVN2pC4
at the bus stop:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5FjjdXa7jI ""
Well, I have to say. This proves the point about brains and barnies (fights) - find a bright kid behaving like that, if you can. Dummied down Britain at its best.
I se they're known as ""Chavs"" now.
""Chav is a derogatory slang term in popular usage throughout the UK. It refers to a subculture stereotype of a person who is uneducated, uncultured and prone to antisocial or immoral behaviour. The label is typically, though not exclusively, applied to teenagers and young adults of white working-class or lower-middle class origin. Chav is used for both sexes, where a male chav is sometimes referred to as a chavster and a female as a chavette.""
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav"
"Sorry oldatlantic,
Very few of the thugs I've met up with in the darker areas of one major mid-Western city, or in the taxi queue after closing time, are ""foreigners"".
They're mostly white kids, although many - for some reason best known to themselves - are wannabe blacks."
"Those links were instructive.
Here's one that shows CCTV can provide plenty of entertainment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWqrsVTzC2k&mode=related&search="
"Brilliant and honest posts, Slipwrist.
At last we get some Geertzian 'deep description' rather than the superficial opining of the barstool politicians.
What you said in your first post intrigued me and reminded me of my own experience. I have a strange background. My mother was middle-class and had been married to a minor aristocrat. She divorced him when she found out that he had links to Oswald Mosley and moved home to the North-East on the rebound to marry the opposite, a big, brawny blacksmith in a mining village. Pure D.H. Lawrence.
I was brought up in a rough area full of rough kids who carried knives but rarely used them. One of the earlier posts associating knives with Caribbeans only was nonsense - white gangs have used knives in Britain for centuries. Glasgow has been the knife-capital for a long time. Exonerating Jews is also ridiculous. Jewish gangs in Britain and the USA have been amongst he most vicious: the Krays, for instance.
My rather schizoid existence as a child - very literate thanks to my mother's influence (she filled the house with books) and physically very powerful thanks to my father's genetics - made me a misfit. The other kids taunted me because of my mother's posh accent and my 'big words', yet they were wary of me because of my size and strength. I was an outsider with nowhere to go, constantly goaded and picked upon.
One day, at the age of about 11, I just lost it with one particular kid who was my main tormenter. I had had enough. Being so strong, I pole-axed him with one punch, breaking his nose and knocking out a couple of teeth. The joy of that moment stuck with me for years: the joy that associates my personal liberation from fear with violence. It becomes fetishised, something I did not understand until years later when I studied social and psychological sciences. I became a boxer, night-club doorman and local 'hard-man' for a while, until my 'other-half' - the product of the non-violent dimensions of my existence - won the battle and I dragged myself over into the field of intellectual pursuits. That fetish is still inside me: it will never go away, although I now have it under firm control.
Now, my childhood was a bit difficult, but nothing compared to what some of today's kids go through in run-down locales. The constant threat of violence - both symbolic and physical - in a climate of hard competition and aggression is the key to the whole problem. Threats of symbolic insignificance and physical violence abound in an over-competitive culture; in brutal market competition, from inept parents, from brothers or sisters, from peers, and constantly expressed in mass-media. If you have a 'haven' you can survive this, but if you suffer symbolic and physical threats in all your spheres of social existence (family, peers, school, broader culture), if you feel that you are at the bottom of the victim-hierarchy, if you feel that there is no way out, then you will seek violent means to liberate yourself. The first violent act that produces a result - even a negative one - will become fetishised because simply performing the physical act will release the psychic tension generated by fear, and violence takes its place in your own personal suite of dispositions.
We muast take measures to reduce the climate of brutal dog-eat-dog competition, aggression, violence and fear - which threatens young people with pain, failure, humiliation and insignificance and fetishises the joy of violent release - in our economy, in our culture, in our mass media, in our families and on the streets."
"questionnaire:
Very well said, mate.
I have to say that your statements explications were very refreshing for me to read. Seldom do I get the chance to hear or read such incive comments on this particular subject matter.
Yes, i remember as a young lad Glasgow's reputation for blades. Particularly, Stanley knives (do I have write TM for trademark here?).
We had only a couple of books in our house, Barbarella, Lamb's tales of Shakespeare, a St. John's Ambulance First Aid Book, and a Man From UNCLE annual. By the time I was 10 years old I was fantasizing about being a very eloquent and well read spy, who quoted Shakespeare and lived on spaceship which travelled to distant worlds where I splinted fractures and delivered babies.
Like you I was an excellent athlete, but mocked by my contemporaries for being poor and a bastard. I felt about at home with them as Hercules in a ballet school. My earliest memories were of non-acceptance from both my family and schoolmates. As they used to say, ""About as welcome as a fart in a telephone kiosk"".
Hunger was my companion. I used to creep down the stairs in the early hours of the morning to steal a slice of bread with a scrape of margarine and some sugar sprinkled on it. I think the funniest thing to happen on that score was when my step-mother was on a diet and eating these special diet food sweets called ""Limits"". I started to steal those too. I once was given a can of carrots for harvest festival to donate to my school, and on the way to school knocked a small hole in the can against a broken paving stone, through which I sucked the carrots.
The strangest thing regarding the violence in my life was the fact that after so many beatings at home, and fights elsewhere, I just seemed to lose all fear of being belted in the mouth. This in turn allowed me to move through a fight with multiple individuals in a way where the concept of time seemed to change. If anyone reading this has had a motorbike or car accident, they'll know what I'm talking about. You just become so hyper aware that you notice every detail and it's like you move through the event in slow motion. I have walked away from some large-scale bother with several blokes with little more than a grazed elbow. Once the fear of being hurt has gone, then the whole thing just becomes a clinical process. Usually a process that I would round-off with some final particularly violent and horrendous act to stand as a warning to anyone else watching.
I was very fortunate not to have killed someone. I often felt as though a hand gripped me tightly about the bicep, pulling back my arm to minimize the force and damage. Life could have gone very badly for me.
It got to the point where I would have people cross the road when they saw me coming. Usually because I'd told them they should do that the next time they saw me.
Of course, the more you get into it, like anything in life, the more extreme you can take and make it. This is what I meant by calling it a ""lifestyle"" in an earlier posting.
Fortunately, though to some readers it may not seem to be the case, I wasn't a bonehead. I was a member of three libraries by the time I was 13 and was a voracious reader. This, plus my luck in being taken under the wings of two very special and clever people, I eventually came out of it. It was a very long road though. However, if properly handled as a kid, I would have become useful to society at a far earlier age.
Sadly, of course, there is the cultural profiling under which one suffers as a kid in school, to be dealt with. Because of being a ""child of sin"" and having a social worker, I was slotted into the remedial groups, or bottom streams in school. I was deemed to be someone who would never amount to anything.
I now own two businesses in China, and speak both German and Chinese; whilst having a smattering of several other languages. So much for profiling.
I found what you said about how it is for children today and was very impressed by your clarity. I was particularly struck by the point regarding inept parent, as it again brings me back to education. I don't mean classes in parenting. I just thing if schools produce a better caliber of graduate, much of the inept, careless, and criminal parenting we see today, would disappear; and we just might then get a healthier society. However, there are too many bonehead parents who just couldn't give a toss about what kind of example they set for their children, and whom totally fail to consider their child's education at all.
I remember one neighbour I had in the UK. He just didn't make any effort with his kids at all. He simply expected them to join the army as he had. However, his boy wasn't even able to pass the simple intelligence test to get in. The boy had nothing wrong with him genetically. He was simply a wasted potential. After years of schooling he was still an empty vessel. I wonder where his life has taken him.
Anyway, I very much enjoyed your post.
All the best"
"Slipwrist and Questionnaire, can I join your club?
I feel a bit uncomfortable spilling beans BUT.
My childhood was something I don't remember too well. My Dad was very violent to my mum and particularly my brothers. I was the eldest, my mum was a young mum, and she basically used me as a safeguard against dad.
So, when he was beating her up, she would come to my bedroom to escape. Anyway, I seem to have managed to erase much of it.
But the key thing here is that I was bullied at school. I got fed up and realised that if I wanted to get on I needed to do something. Was really simple. Pick an easy victim, get the crowd together outside the school gate. And slap away.
Worked. No problem. Was bessy mates with ""cock"" of the school gang from then on.
But in those days it was all about postering, still is, just that there are serious weapons.
And while I think it's good to understand that it's really about self preservation, I have two young boys now. I don't know what to tell them. We could raise capital from the house to give them private eduaction but I think that's a cop out. What about those kids who don't get a chance to escape?
I did by the way, my nan paid for me to go to private secondary education cos no one else would take me (-:
I just wish we could all get a bit more interested in who and how were bringing up the next generation, regardless of whether they belong to us.
The habitual result of my childhood is that I am quick to take on anyone and defend.
Experience of having kids is that I need to reign myself in and not be so quick to jump into uncertain, threatening situations in the act of ""defending"" people.
I left my kids standing on a train platform the last time I did it. While I chased a guy who was violent to his girlfriend and abducted her from the station. I realise it was stupid but it's about trying to look out for eachother. Anyway, wont do that again! it was a sad lesson."
"deb1
Of course you can join our club. Welcome. :)
The great thing about letting stuff out of your head and talking about it, is that not only can others learn from what you have to say, but also the externalisation process - the explanation - the explication - the self-analysis involved is often different to one's usual personal analysis, and, therefore, often leads to a better understanding of oneself and one's motives.
The way you analyse things when they are just thoughts is very different to how one approaches the same data during the speaking process, as one often has to put a thought or feeling into terms, which will somehow make sense to the listener. Or in this case, the reader.
Did you ever get a handle on your dad's violence? Did you figure out his triggers? Where you able to understand where it and he were coming from? Did you ever come to the point where you could say, ""I hate his violence, but I can see where it comes from, so I don't hate him? Did he ever get it sorted, himself? I'm interested, but don't expect you to answer. Only if you're OK to talk about it.
You say, "" Anyway, I seem to have managed to erase much of it."" Is not more the case that one never ""erases"" it, but rather becomes clear as to how it has affected one's life and personality. Is it not case that it remains about as far away, or distant, from one, as the back of your head is to your eyebrows? However, now it is no longer devastating, but is, or has become, the data from which your life is now referenced? That's how it is for me. It doesn't hurt me now, it is just data.
You also say, ""But in those days it was all about postering, still is, just that there are serious weapons."" Yes, I think you have a very sad, but very valid point. The minds of children are often very unsophisticated, and depending on where they come from, in terms of family environment, specific geography within a town or city, and what data is placed in their heads in the early days of childhood, will determine how they choose to popularize themselves amongst their contemporaries. Some will use humor, others natural charm, cuteness, cheekiness of a witty kind, or plain old violence. And that's the substance of education.
Perhaps when the NHS is putting together its next parenting leaflet, it might address some psychological issues, rather than simply the physical care, but the issues which are formative in the psychology of children. We need to popularize the concept of psychological environment in the care of our children. A bit of forethought.
If I were you, and could raise capital from my home to send my kids to a better school. I would. Cop-out? No! Just doing EXACTLY what you are capable of doing for your boys. Facilitating the best possible future for them through a good education isn't a cop-out. Later you can also add your personal knowledge to their database of knowledge too.
You say, ""I just wish we could all get a bit more interested in who and how were bringing up the next generation, regardless of whether they belong to us.""
Yes, that's exactly the point. Everyone complains, but won't do the work. ""Oh, that's not my business. Somebody else should deal with that"" That's the real cop-out. All of us need to understand that though we may be individuals, we are all part of the whole - nationally, and internationally.
You say, ""I left my kids standing on a train platform the last time I did it. While I chased a guy who was violent to his girlfriend and abducted her from the station. I realise it was stupid but it's about trying to look out for eachother. Anyway, wont do that again! it was a sad lesson.""
As I said to GrandOldMan in an earlier post. Violence and aggression are not rational, rather they are emotional. Not a lot of thinking involved. More akin to instinct than thought. Batteries not included.
All the best."
"Thanks for that lovely post Slipwrist. I agree with all of it.
""Did you ever get a handle on your dad's violence? Did you figure out his triggers? Where you able to understand where it and he were coming from? Did you ever come to the point where you could say, ""I hate his violence, but I can see where it comes from, so I don't hate him? Did he ever get it sorted, himself? I'm interested, but don't expect you to answer. Only if you're OK to talk about it.""
I did get a handle on my dads violence but only after he died. I think he represented too many hurt and angry memories for me to face him about it when he was alive. I basically avoided him from the age of 16 or so. The last time I saw him, he was in a coffin and looked at peace.
I know he had a very troubled childhood, he ended up in Borstal, that was the first of several ""long hospital"" stays he would have when we were children. I think he must have experienced some terrible things in Borstal, and prison.
I remember visting him when I was about fourteen or fifteen, he had raw marks around his wrist where he had been tied up by other prisoners, now I think he might have beeen raped. He asked me to say hello to his dog - imaginary.
He was a working class Liverpool boy who lived by his talent and his wits. He worked hard, was a mechanic with his own garage. He would recondition cars then sell them on. We all remember the times he would come in, throw a thick roll of notes on the kitchen table and ask us to count it. (-: He was a bit of a crook, but he was surviving and providing the best way he know how to. He had five children! They divorced when I was fifteen.
He may have had mental problems, it certainly seemed so sometimes. He had a lot of rage in him which I think was due to his experience of life.
Anyways, we have a beautiful aeroplane he made from matchsticks in prison. It's a work of art. My two boys are fascinated by it and by the fact that their Grandfather made it in prison!
He didn't get it sorted. He ended up doing a long stretch for GBH in his later years.
Anyways, there you go. That's end of subject on my dad. Can't believe I've just spread it on CIF. Cheers Slipwrist (-:"
Amazing, I really enjoyed this bleating article. For the last 20 years you've clamoured for a child centric educational system without boundaries or discipline. What did you expect would be the end result - a population of highly educated self-motivated people sitting around politely dicussing the finer points of philosphy and the benefits of aromatherapy whilst sipping moderate servings of wine? No what we actually got was a whole section of society that realised it doesn't have to learn, doesn't have to conform to any standard of decent behaviour and doesn't have to work for a living. Now you complain how your kids are frightened to go to school or walk the streets. They have you to thank for this, I'm sure their gratitude will one day make its appearance in a form we all should fear.
"deb1
""I did get a handle on my dads violence but only after he died. I think he represented too many hurt and angry memories for me to face him about it when he was alive. I basically avoided him from the age of 16 or so. The last time I saw him, he was in a coffin and looked at peace.""
I understand. I have family members I haven't spoken to since 1977. Sadly, for the majority of us, understanding has to be achieved away from the source, as the source is often inaccessible, unable, or willing to open up about how they became who they are. Moreover, they are already more critical of themselves than anyone may believe. It is my belief that a man like your father was probably his own harshest critic, and faced his own criticism regularly throughout the day and in the wee small hours. The saddest thing, I feel, is that you, like many of us, didn't have the chance to share your understanding of him with him before he died. Still, it is better to have made one's realisations than to remain bitter.
We are but paper and life is the ink which writes us. However, unlike a book, we can read ourselves, challenge ourselves, draw new and insightful conclusions and then move in a new direction. This is one of the great things about awareness. Although, there are those amongst us who mis this realisation and continue to allow life to write them, rather than write their own destiny's. You're father was the product of his own life, as we all are, and therefore bears no guilt. He was who he was, because of where he had been. Not enough of us walk in the other person's shoes. In fact many of us don't look carefully at the other person's shoes, and that's what makes people ignorant. It seems to me that you have put yourself in your father's shoes, and that is a good thing for you and your kids.
""He had a lot of rage in him which I think was due to his experience of life.""
Many a man of violence have the root to their rage in the feeling that they could have been more, should have been more, and wanted to be more than they ever were. Often the rage is against the impotence one can feel in the hands of ""fate"" and society. Many of these men feel born out of time, and their rage bursts from that passionate turmoil within. Moreover, in my experience of ""hard men"", most are soft sods who would cry watching the ""Walton's"" or ""Little House on the Prairie"". Many too are men with a high sense of honour. What used to be called, ""The Salt of the Earth"", but who feel the world has lost any real sense of that particular concept. hence the born out of time feeling.
""Anyways, we have a beautiful aeroplane he made from matchsticks in prison. It's a work of art. My two boys are fascinated by it and by the fact that their Grandfather made it in prison!""
It seems he had patience and dedication. Small things like these are great indicators of essentially very good personality traits, such as: patience and dedication to a course of action, as just mentioned, artistic expression, an urge to create and construct, the will to make and shape something of beauty from limited resources etc. Of course, to some its just a matchstick plane. Of course it is - if your eyes don't open wide enough. To me it says more.
""He didn't get it sorted. He ended up doing a long stretch for GBH in his later years.""
That's sad for him and all in his family. But sometimes we do just get lost. And sometimes we feel it's too late to get back on the path. but always we know who we are. Or should.
Thanks for sharing that with us. I have noted the limited amount of posts on this string, but I'm certain there have been many who have read, and just left without comment. Not because they haven't appreciated what has been said and shared here, but rather that their own experience has been different; perhaps softer, and they feel there is little they can perhaps add. However, I'm sure many have learned something of use or interest in this string. I know I have. Thanks again deb1.
All the best."
"deb1, slipwrist, questionnaire - Well done all. I actually came from a fairly stable upbringing and therefore cannot comment on such stark and brutal childhood experiences. I can, however, commend you all on your honesty and bravery.
redafiya - Excellent comments. It is quite an art to get across the points you were trying to make whilst simultaneously dodging the ""racist!"" and ""BNP!"" mudslingers. I think you got the mix just about right. Some of us can appreciate that the likes of you and I sometimes use language which has been socially outlawed by the ever looming spectre of PC, but only in an attempt to open up the debate and get people talking about what are the real causes and possible solutions to these problems. Others would rather their ears were protected from what they are led to believe is racism, at the cost of effectively closing debate and remaining on square 1.
One point that I would like to add though, is that I did actually feel safer when i lived in predominantly black Dalston than when I lived in predominantly white, chav infested Reading. This is proof (as if any were needed) that their is a feral white underclass that is just as nasty as it's African/Caribbean equivalent, the only difference being that they can't seem to get hold of guns. Street scum come in all colours."
"""a man of violence have the root to their rage in the feeling that they could have been more, should have been more, and wanted to be more than they ever were. Often the rage is against the impotence one can feel in the hands of ""fate"" and society. .....Many too are men with a high sense of honour. What used to be called, ""The Salt of the Earth"", but who feel the world has lost any real sense of that particular concept. hence the born out of time feeling"".
Thanks Slipwrist.
(bad copy and paste)"
"Once in a blue moon? We should be so lucky (and I assume you are talking singles here).
Producing one at all is what would confound people."
"Steve
You appear a rare talent for choosing the irrelevant.
This weekend the World tennis will celebrate a new lady No1, while you keep writing about the good old days when both of us were handsome and young."
"Lovely article. Nice to read, funny but not too much, realistic but with some passion for the past. Very well written, moderated in his ""trends"", contended just to the precised point.
Thanks Mr. Steve, I must follow you now.
As for english players, well, talent comes from time to time, in several ways (Henman, Rusedsky, Murray), so now its just a matter of believe it. You just need a really bad boy with talent."
Ha? I serve and volley, don't forget.
"""...that in 10 years time the sport will have been completely taken over, like the British building trade, by eastern Europeans""
Too late !
tomorrow (today? Thursday !) will see two women's semi-finals played between a pair of Russians and a pair of Serbs."
"What a silly article. I can't believe that this is all the Guardians main tennis correspondent could find to write about as we approach the semi finals of one of the biggest tournaments in the world. It's like those people who bemoan the fact that football matches are no longer attended by 100,000 men in flat caps.
Come on! It's an international sport now, and if young people from Eastern Europe are good at a sport and it helps them to get away from poverty and become famous then so what? Oh, and I suggest that you check the top ten in the mens ATP rankings. Number of Eastern Europeans? 2! Hardly taking over. Why is it ok for there to be a plethora of European / US / South American based players in the rankings but not Eastern Europe?
So tennis isn't a game of skill any more? It takes an unbelievable amount of talent and skill and hard work to get to the top. Federer is a genius, pure and simple, and if he faced off against McEnroe with a wooden racket he would win because his footwork is better and I am sure that he would be more than able to slice and spin his way to victory."
"Where else in the world would an organization as incompetent and worthless as the LTA be tolerated?
Every year we hear the same old diatribe, i.e. they are investing x millions in grass roots tennis etc. And the results of this policy is plain for all to see.
Rather like the two-party political system, the LTA's only interest is in preserving the status quo. In this instance, maintaining the genteel, upper middle-class social game of tennis for middle-aged servants and their ilk.
The LTA have about as much interest in promoting the game amongst the masses and/or producing top-class British players as Oxbridge has in enrolling students from State schools."
"Where else in the world would an organization as incompetent and worthless as the LTA be tolerated?
Every year we hear the same old diatribe, i.e. they are investing x millions in grass roots tennis etc. And the results of this policy is plain for all to see.
Rather like the two-party political system, the LTA's only interest is in preserving the status quo. In this instance, maintaining the genteel, upper middle-class social game of tennis for middle-aged civil servants and their ilk.
The LTA have about as much interest in promoting the game amongst the masses and/or producing top-class British players as Oxbridge has in enrolling students from State schools."
"""It is for this reason that we must bring back national service.""
I suppose you weren't thinking of a referendum or anything along those lines, but this would presumably be yet another elective dictatorship diktat"
"If it's Britain he's to talking about, an article about ""British"" unity without mentioning the growing differences between Scots, Welsh and English is myopic.
""but nor does it lie with traditional Anglo-Saxon society."" Is the author talking about Englishness here or Britishness?
A muddle from someone whose not thought a lot about what he's written. The usual parochial metropolitan rubbish."
"That sure will unite us in one way. Unite us in the way that we will all be treat as bad as criminals.
And while it may bind a load of simpletons and mental retards (ie socialists and authoritarian nationalists) to the state, I think it will make a great amny more intelligent people hostile to the state."
DougtheMug: 'A muddle from someone whose[sic] not thought a lot about what he's written' - sums up your post quite nicely too. you've totally ignored the point of the piece - ie the reintroduction of national service - so that you can make some half-baked comment on britain/england/scotland/yawn. if you take that out of the equation and deal with the real point being made, then is it still 'parochial metropolitan rubbish'? not really...but that would assume you could see the wood for the trees. i'm not holding my breath
"The World needs more Nationalism? I must have logged on to The Sun.
Oh, I see! The Guardian is being ironic! Did the Editor get a book on Postmodernism for christmas? Sweet.
Can we get a grown-up in charge please?"
"I'm all for Britain sticking together. Not only do I oppose Scotland leaving (or England leaving, for that matter) but I'm also unfashionably pro Empire!
But if it's a choice between the breakup of Britain and reintroducing national service, I'd pick the former."
i'm glad you are not advocating Military National service a waste of time we got rid of it in 1960, As a profesional in the forces we were glad to see the back of them no interest very few signed on did not do character building we had the Kray twins teach then to use guns! the forces are now very high tech they don't need yobs.
Oh dougthedug what a miserable perspective you have on life. Stop whingeing about the make up of our multicultural society and read what the article says. How the world changes- in the 60's we fought against compulsory military national service, now its back on the agenda, albeit without the military biut. What's next? The return of capital punishment?
Oh dougthedug what a miserable perspective you have on life. Stop whingeing about the make up of our multicultural society and read what the article says. How the world changes- in the 60's we fought against compulsory military national service, now its back on the agenda, albeit without the military but. What's next? The return of capital punishment?
"If they don't play together in schools it's too late to integrate at work. Personally I think abolishing faith schools is a much more practical and sensible way of creating social integration as there is plenty of support for this but practically none for national service.
Also national service wouldn't work now because for national service to work the majority of people need to move into the Army and thats not going to happen during a very unpopular war. We'd be filling the prisons with those who refuse."
"Britain = England
England = Britain
British = English
Britishness = Englishness
Brit = Little Englander
British Unity = English Xenophobia
These are agreed expressions, no need for statements."
"""However, private, faith and grammar schools mean that, even at school, children are often divided along class and religious lines. Frequently, children leave school as underexposed to Britain's diversity as when they entered. After school, it is no better. There is university (largely for the privileged) and beyond that, the work place - by which time divisions are well and truly petrified.
The fact is that there is no truly unifying British institutional experience.""
The answer is in the problem, treat all children equally. Drop faith schools and public schools and return to the ideals of the 70s - a comprehensive system for all. It is eaiser for children to learn to mix the younger they are - not after they ahve left school.
Whilst this may not be advocating military service just yet, a step down this road could also be a step down that road at some future point. Much easier to achieve once the sytem is in place.
There is no reason why a 'comprehensive' school could not get involved in a community project and involve oder pupils. National service, in the end, will only serve to increase class divisions. what do you think is going to happen when public school A level achievers meet working class, acadenic under-achievers.? By this statge it is too late to help most kids and the idea only serves to embed further the cultural differences it pretends to solve."
I thought we'd abolished slavery?
Surely sending them off on a 18-30 holiday with compulsory pub crawls and sexually orientated party games would be a better way of getting people understand and integrate into modern British society
"National service, the country cannot keep the serving servicemen and their families as it is with the present % of the GDP. Would the British public be prepared to pay the increase in the MOD budget whilst reducing the Budget elsewhere? I think not...
A professional armed force or conscription, there is no question that an Armed force full of conscripts is weak, 1982 proved! Falklands War against a professional Army the outcome would have been a different story.
Even if the money could be found and the electorate were in favour of National Service, the needs of the Armed forces, MUST COME FIRST..
These negatives against a feeling of Britishness..... come on not serious..."
Seethefreedman: You seem like an angry type ....maybe you should try holding your breath.
All declarations of human rights declare forced labour to be contrary to their principles. They then include a cop-out clause that it can somehow be justified if it is called national service. At a time when even those European countries that have it - only for males of course - are increasingly looking to reduce or eliminate it, this is quite the most barking suggestion yet on these pages.
Serving and BrigadierBarking, you didnt read the article did you? No wonder you dress yourselves up with military monikers. Whaere does he talk about military service. What a shame that every time we get a good idea in this country it crumbles into nothingness because of the negativity of the brain dead. The only problem that I can see with the idea Josh advances is that we would have to share a cultural identity with fools.
"Last times we introduced conscription there was definitely national unity, based upon external military threat plus a much more homogeneous society, more cohesive -except in terms of class division. Though the nasty old class divisions are making a come back with declining social mobility.
Whether you can create a sense of unity that has largely evaporated by dragooning people into doing things that a lot of them won't want to do is debtable to say the least- the law of unintended consequences always kicks in.
In any case are you proposing to get university entrants to defer for 18 months or whatever - to pick shit out of a canal or make breakfasts for drug addicts in hostels or something? That would go down like a lead balloon. Or would university graduates be expected to postpone their career plus foothold on the debt slavery mortgage ladder for a time? Can't see that being popular.
Or would it just apply to non-grads and grads who couldn't get jobs? In which case it would be a sort of looked-down on lumpen load of crap.
Have you thought this through? What wouldn't be very good would be if some messianic arse-hole of the Blair variety were to say ""hey, now, look, I know what's best for you"" and to ram it though Parliament on tghe basis of about 1 in 5 of the electorate's votes and a party faction comprising worthless, supine toadies - like the Labour party"
"National Service" to politicians means only one thing: more cannon-fodder to feed their military adventures abroad. A very dangerous article in my view.
"sethfreedman: Yep, grammatical error, ""whose/who's"". Before the first cup of coffee.
""You've totally ignored the point of the piece"" Nope. You've seen the words National Service and ignored the rest. The real point of the piece is about British Unity. National service is simply a tool he proposes to try and reinforce it. He's blabbing on about Britishness without any insight into the artificial nature of the identity or the current stresses between the original partners in the Union. If you're going to write about Britishness it's always better to know what you're talking about.
theoldfeller: ""Stop whingeing about the make up of our multicultural society"" I'm sorry I can't find any complaint in the orginal post except that the author failed to recognise the original multicultural makeup of the British state. Is the real complaint that I pointed it out?"
"Serving" and "BrigadierBarking" and all others who have replied to this as if the writer was advocating bringing back military service, should take more time to think before they shoot. What is being advocated is compulsory social work of some kind. . .a system that already operates in some other European states to great effect. Far from being expensive it could solve some problems: more people to clean hospitals could help erradicate MRSA, people to help teach basic literacy . . So stop being so narrow minded please.
Anything that fosters respect of the community that surrounds an individual and the wider society around 'it' muct surely be a good thing? 'Community' Service rather than 'National' service may be a better phrase had that not already been used....which is a completely different cooking utensil of piscine things.
"Standby to apply Godwin's Law.
To some extent this proposal, ironic or otherwise, has rather been superseded by the announcement that the school leaving age is to be raised from sixteen to eighteen. The intention, would seem as per this thread, is to ensure that our children are 'educated' to conform to a progressive sense of social responsibility in a diverse and inclusive dynamic 'British' society.
The contention is that Britishness, is at best, undefined and remains a nebulous concept awaiting definition and imposition by the great and the good. Nationalism is, naturally, bad in any context other than as a fragile sense of belonging.
I would suggest that the nation state is the building block of civil society. The process of nation building over the past thousand years or so has produced the United Kingdom and in that common experience we find our definition, warts and all.
What we are is largely about who we have been.
However great the sense of self-loathing this may engender in others I can only see positive and unifying elements in understanding the past to understand the present.
How did we get here? From feudal serfdom through civil war, parliamentary democracy, industrial revolution and the universal franchise we evolved into what we are. The past is not a foreign country."
Britishness is a busted flush. The likes of Gordon Brown may try to bolster it, but most of the indiginous population have had enough, be they English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish. Break up the UK, form a Federation of the British isles and have done with this fiction of Britishness.
"When I left a top grade public school in 1953, at the age of seventeen and a half, I was a fairly typical product of the system. In other words affected, ignorant of the way the world works and the way most of the people in it live and think. Not really prejudiced, precisely because of that ignorance, but with the usual ingrained instinctive conviction of the superiority of my class.
As I had six months to do before being called up for national service I followed the example of one of my cousins and signed up for a job on a whaling factory ship for a trip to the Antarctic. I found myself responsible for scrubbing decks and cleaning toilets for about fifty Norwegian labourers and whale butchers and sharing a cabin about the size of a prison cell with three other cabin boys, two of them Brits from Liverpool and one British/Norwegian from London. One of the Liverpool lads was a bit of a bully and his much smaller mate acted as his minder. I learned a lot during that six months and survived in spite of my deficiencies in the streetwise department. Apart from anything else I was probably the only virgin on the ship, even after our two visits to Capetown.
National Service in the Royal Marines followed and my experience in the whaling ship and in the school Cadet Force stood me in good stead. The RM taught me gunnery and put me in a ship with no guns, mainly as the result of an argument with a gunnery NCO during a practice shoot at sea. The fact that as gun captain I was right and there really was not a shell with the cartridge in the 4.5"" gun was probably what did the damage!
The main point of my story is that those two periods at sea turned me from a snobbish little toffee nosed git into something resembling a human being, with a great respect for the capabilities, intelligence and integrity of people from all backgrounds, in spite of a lack of formal education and money. Even the infrequent bully boys and those in the service suffering from the mental and physical effects of the Malayan campaigns could be survived, with a combination of stubborn refusal to be destroyed and occasional discreet cowardice. I finally earned some respect by spending a February week in the ship's cells after an abortive amateur attempt at smuggling in Weymouth.
The service professionals certainly did not want us there and sometimes made this very clear. Those of us from a public school background were treated with the ridicule we deserved in the real world of cramped quarters and an absolute need to conform to custom to prevent trouble. On one occasion another public school type was threatened with a barrack scrubbing (with floor scrubbers) when found wearing a greatcoat while doing his morning ablutions in cold weather.
I would welcome the return of some form of compulsory public service for any who do not show the initiative of taking a voluntary gap year to work abroad. It is not too late to integrate people into society after school and there are advantages in doing so at an age when people are beginning to emerge from the emotional traumas of puberty and adolescence.
Don't put them in the Army though. Give them honest work to do or send them to sea!"
If national service were to be brought back, then the members of this society would have a far stronger voice regarding the wars that this country fights - as it will be all of our sons and daughters who are taking part. Surely a system where everyone is forced to take part in the foreign affairs of our country can only be a good thing. Not only will our youth become better educated about global issues, but their parents will have more of an incentive to stand up for what they believe is right (and to take on governments who choose to not listen!).
"""I am, however, calling for a period of compulsory national service for all school-leavers.""
Well thank you Mr Stalin, but frankly it's an affront to the very idea of personal freedom."
The difficulty with any arguement of who we are has been perverted by social engineering by the state. A simple example is driving habits, drink driving and speed both were considered sort of acceptable in the past. Through spin, propaganda etc the government changed the view of society, now it's bad and anti-social. We have been a product of this social propaganda/engineering in many areas including multiculturism etc but failed to apply those same standards on immigrants leading to social division, race based gettos and areas. Where it will end will prove interesting, Southampton and several other cities have become a focal point of the Polish immigrant population, while they accept low standards in accommadation, pay and working conditions. This will change as they mature from the immigrant status they will demand higher standards. The fear must be if they go the way of the Asian communities of isolation we have planted another social bomb ticking away in an already strained society. While deploring the American's dream, at least they firstly American and their race and greed follow but that not typical British, doing everything backwards.
"Whilst momentarily beguiling, perhaps, this proposal is utterly fatuous upon a moment's reflection.
Presumably there would be a uniform/badge for the conscripts, designer kudos there will not be - it would be equated more with the chain gang by some right from the start.
You would need non-commissioned officer/team leader/overseer equivalents - inevitably officiousness and not leadership would be to the fore. You need leadership at Arnhem 1944, you sure as shit don't need it creosoting a fence.
There are 1 million plus young people not in education, employment or training. There are more in fact than there were in 97 in spite of the plethora of gov't initatives and all the caash that has been thrown at this.
Quite few of these, and the deferred uni. grads, are not going to be exactly tractable.
What do you do when they tell you ""fuck off wanker......you know where you can stick that paint brush, arse-hole!!"".
Court Martial? Glaashouse?
Hardly seems fair to the university grads - university is now a kind of compulsory education service, many are not going to get a graduate job - whatever that means. To be stuck with student loans and be conscripted into ""community service"" as well would be pretty shitty.
At root the social contract is broken - back when there was National Service the equivalent of the ""NEET"" would probably get a factory job and a council house, now the rich just get richer - it's the law of the land - and what was much of the working class sinks, alinated and disconnected."
DougtheDug: "I'm sorry I can't find any complaint in the orginal post except that the author failed to recognise the original multicultural makeup of the British state. Is the real complaint that I pointed it out?" No the real complaint is that the original makeup of the state is not relevant to its contemporary makeup. We have moved on as a society and this article (irrespective of the views both of libertarian fascists such as Chris1White, and of those who are trying to deflect the debate to one about the military) is trying to advance constructive and positive solutions to deal with it.
"An excellent piece of writing cogently presenting an original and worthy case.
I am reluctant to add too much by way of a posting so as not to deflect the reader's attention from Josh Freedman Berthoud's article. However, I think, especially in the light of the comments I have read, that a number of points need to be made:-
We can not know so much about British identity any more - so much of it remains hidden behind those black veils which seem as prevalent in 2007 as they were in 2006 - in fact we do not know if there is a British identity behind them or not. These are often mere blobs of darkness floating through our sensory perceptions and we are left to wonder if they were there at all. How much more then must we wonder if they are British?
DougThe Mug's senseless attack on Seth Freedman, another noted Commentator on CiF is wholly unfounded and with the EEC and transparent liquid national borders I wonder whether he is really qualified to comment anyway. It was not merely for humour that we used to aske what you would call someone with a Spade in his head (answer: Doug)but so many Britons had gone in search of their Golden Medina on the Costas del Sol, del Crime etc etc (others as has been observed before simply went to the islands of Costas. For sure, British identity has been lost. Bands of youngsters uniting in community activities may assist to renew the spirit but the true beauty of the idea is that after a short while as the rest of the world follows suit, ours can fly their flag and pittheir wits or prunes against similar ""armies"" from overseas. Poles apart, Poles may want to go back to Poland with their newly-acquired skills and clean up a few hospitals, schools or unsavoury but true myths about their history (apply Polish liberally), from the Indian sub-Continent they may want to return to their trade routes and establish a few institutions based on what they have found here. It may take a few years but I think that this national service may well serve to raise national awareness amongst some of our youngsters who, in search of a Club 18-30 atmosphere, will seek out their nationalist origins and our streets need no longer heave with internecine strife, unemployment etc. Instead, it seems logical that the World map will be redrawn as history intended. We know that will likely lead to renewal of individual territory aspirations and conflict will likely follow. THAT IS PRECISELY WHEN WE SHALL REAP BENEFIT FROM THE SEEDS SOWN BY THIS NEW FORM OF NATIONAL SERVICE!! Our youngsters will laready be cohesively united into a potential fighting force and it will be back, we shall have three armed forces and the Great will be restored to Britain. I don't think Brigadier Barking has anything to fear.
Incidentally, although Red Ken may claim the idea emanates from his office, some of the foreign youngsters in the new army could begin their service by fixing unlit bollards so that it will be safe for Britons to ride the Public Highway again.
An excellent article and this fellow isn't even a former Cabinet Minister or University Professor. Maybe it is time this country was run by advocates of originality - and not just this country.
ENDS 11.24 a.m"
What on earth is, 'British identity', anyway? And who needs it...I'm me, isn't that enough ?
There's a fair whiff of the trolling mindset in this commentators piece of fantasy. Clearly he knows this is Telegraph, letters page wishful thinking and likely to receive a disdainful response. However I welcome the idea. To see the state attempt to assert itself over the younger generation would be quite fascinating. I'm not sure there could be a better way of introducing them to political participation even if it was by rioting and resistence. Anyway I hope this writer has been well fed and is ready for a snooze under his bridge.
"Funny, I always thought a key concept of Britishness was individual freedom and not ordering people about more than an absolute minimum.
Next week: ""Will public hangings restore a long lost sense of local community, shared experience, and common law justice?"""
"While Mr Freedman Berthoud may have diagnosed the lack of national indentity as the problem, the less controversial and perhaps slightly more slippery concept of 'social cohesion' could easily be substituted for this.
Similarly the idea of an obligatory 'national service' is needlessly controversial. If instead the idea was to have, as part of the national curriculum, a requirement for students to participate in community-based projects, the same ends could be achieved, provided that it was appropriately organised on a local/regional basis."
"Whenever the subject of ""Britishness"" comes up the word ""Tolerence"" ( among several others ) soon follows. I have experienced British ""tolerance"" first hand. It usually takes the following form - ""Oh well, you really do smell bad but hey, I can put up with that so long as you wipe my bum.""
A proven British ""value"" which one can see in action everyday without fail is hypocrisy, which I encourage people not to subscribe to.
I believe that National Military Service in which everyone ( including the sons and daughters of the high and mighty must serve ) without ANY exceptions might very well help to prevent UK from embarking on unjustified wars since the risks would be more evenly shared between all classes in society. The problem with professional armies is that the foot soldiers who stand to take most of the casualties are usually made up largely from the poorer classes. This tends to encourage the political and other elite classes to engage in war more readily. If their own kith and kin were exposed to risks they may just ponder upon the need for war more honestly.
I am very sceptical of the notion of National Service as described by the writer. We have already been told by the Government and the media that a few short weeks in a madras in Pakistan turns people into extremists and jihadists. Would the purpose of National Service be to turn everyone into barking Blacherites?? This is a very dangerous suggestion."
"Whenever the subject of ""Britishness"" comes up the word ""Tolerence"" ( among several others ) soon follows. I have experienced British ""tolerance"" first hand. It usually takes the following form - ""Oh well, you really do smell bad but hey, I can put up with that so long as you wipe my bum.""
A proven British ""value"" which one can see in action everyday without fail is hypocrisy, which I encourage people not to subscribe to.
I believe that National Military Service in which everyone ( including the sons and daughters of the high and mighty must serve ) without ANY exceptions might very well help to prevent UK from embarking on unjustified wars since the risks would be more evenly shared between all classes in society. The problem with professional armies is that the foot soldiers who stand to take most of the casualties are usually made up largely from the poorer classes. This tends to encourage the political and other elite classes to engage in war more readily. If their own kith and kin were exposed to risks they may just ponder upon the need for war more honestly.
I am very sceptical of the notion of National Service as described by the writer. We have already been told by the Government and the media that a few short weeks in a madras in Pakistan turns people into extremists and jihadists. Would the purpose of National Service be to turn everyone into barking Blacherites?? This is a very dangerous suggestion."
"Dougthedug - but what's wrong with him suggesting that a period spent working together for the good of the nation would also benefit the integration of various elements of our society? it's only really an extension of ethnically mixed schooling, which is hardly such a radical - or offensive - idea. i just don't see why you hijack it and turn it into something connected to the various countries in the union.
Chris1white - 'Well thank you Mr Stalin, but frankly it's an affront to the very idea of personal freedom.' Bit touchy, aren't you? do you also disagree with kids having to stay in school till 16? is that an affront to personal freedom - or for their own good, as well as society's?"
"Thought the article was a well meaning sociological rant until I read the piece about national service. My highest regards to the commentator for daring to mention such a concept to Guardian readers. At a time when the community and voluntary sector are crying out for help, it would be of great benefit to society in theory. That is, of course, before you sit down and try to work out how it would be managed and financed.
Potentially, though, its a good solution that would bring different benefits to different parts of society, forcing more cohesiveness. It would give those in danger of dropping out the system a sense of purpose, skills and self belief and break down self-imposed religious and cultural barriers - certainly more effective and meaningful than any citizenship test you could devise."
"RosaDavis ""If national service were to be brought back, then the members of this society would have a far stronger voice regarding the wars that this country fights - as it will be all of our sons and daughters who are taking part.""
This idea is the biggest piece of crock I've ever heard. As a democratic nation, our voice should be sufficiently strong already. This notion will serve one purpose only, to resolve the governments recruitment crisis in the armed forces. Well they caused the problem by agreeing to participate in an aggressive war. Turning our kids into child soldiers is not going to help.
I predict a nation of conscientious objectors if they did try this. I thought we were meant to be fighting for 'Freedom' - not conscription."
Land reclamation could be worthwhile,like filling in the channel tunnel.
The Yankees are getting closer to the draft. Therefore, it is no surprise that the Brit public is being prepared for National Service. So many countries to occupy, so few soldiers. Blair has just said at Devonport 'it is right for Britain to intervene around the World'. The slaughter will continue and the writer of this article is contributing to that in his own small way.
"_AT_PolicyGeek
'If instead the idea was to have, as part of the national curriculum, a requirement for students to participate in community-based projects, the same ends could be achieved, provided that it was appropriately organised on a local/regional basis.'
_AT_sethfreedman
'but what's wrong with him suggesting that a period spent working together for the good of the nation would also benefit the integration of various elements of our society? it's only really an extension of ethnically mixed schooling, which is hardly such a radical - or offensive'
Therein lies the rub. In Wiltshire, for example, according to the 2001 census, of a population of about half a million people 98.3% were ethically white. How are we going to give our children a multi-cultural sense of context when there is virtually no such context to experience?
This is a factual statement before anyone clicks the racist button."
Would this wonderful non-national service national service include Northern Irish people as well? If so, twould at least be providing yet another good reason to join the Republic...
Followyourheart: Your name betrays the selfishness of your views. "I thought we were supposed to be fighting for freedom". The obsession with the freedom of the individual has overcome all sense of perspective of the individual's duty to, and function within, society. The wider and more diverse this society becomes, the more individual needs to be encouraged to cultivate their relationships with the increasingly numerous elements of this society. Anyone who says compulsory military service is dangerous, I draw your attention to the article: "I am not talking about national military service, but rather national social or community service." MAC 105: "British Unity = English Xenophobia". Wrong. The article advocates consolidation of a new definition of unity based on the component parts of the nation as it exists at the moment and in years to come. If you wish to use a different name for this nation, other than the name that exists already - Britain- that's fine. Only I expect you might meet even more opposition than the writer of this article.
"englandism
Regional would not work. It would have to be international, so that people in Essex could learn to respect the Welsh speaking people in Gwynedd and Llwyd while the Northern Irish could sample the delights of Birmingham. A bit of Euro experience might not go amiss either.
Certainly one of the potential problems faced by this country in the future is the trend for people of earlier European stock to move out of the cities, leaving the city centres and inner suburbs to more recent immigrants. We should learn from the USA in this instead of following their example.
I wonder how the Scout and Guide movements are going these days. There should be some integration potential there."
"Some very good ideas really are coming out of this debate.
I just do not understand senseless criticism, for example of RosaDavis.
Loads of you think that Berthoud is seeking to create a new military force. He is not. He is trying to teach some of our youngsters some social responsibilities which, ideally, they will take back to their homelands and then, if we need to clean everything up we could use our national service infrastructure to influence the rest of the world (eg peace keeping forces where required, as at present - we do not seem to do very much else nowadays).
The idea of filling in the Channel Tunnel is superb but remember, if you block in the entry point you also block up the exit route and we do need some basis to remigrate those who do not wish to stay. Canoes paddled by youngsters of foreign origin (who know the way ) could be provided by the national unity togetherness service (NUTS) to transport people back to Europe, the Middle East etc. or at least as far out from Harwich as the little boats could manage.
Wiltshire is a problem and I would support excluding youngsters from that locale from any new regime. In the first instance they could concentrate on growing salad potatoes, thereafter it could become an enclosed haven for foreign dissenters who do not wish to leave the UK.
Enormous potential here, as I said before. An idea of potential, a commentator with vision. The pity is that so few of you can see it. I love the jealousy that comes out - viz. that chap who wants Josh to take a sabbatical but reckons that school-leavers have commitments like kids to support. Josh should not be allowed to stop working or to stop churning out this genius. Absolutely time for us all to take stock of the siuation and to lay plans for a future of promise, of vision, of hope.
ENDS 12.28 pm"
"UncleJ> Your comment *was* written in jest, wasn't it? For I would surely wish to believe that it was written in the same vain as Barking's - which, in contrast to you piece, was at least funny. Yours, sadly, small minded and racist.
Whilst I sympathise with some of the ideas contained within Josh Freeman Berthoud's piece, I find the basic premise - national unity/national identity - to be far off the point. As pollygreek quite rightly stated, it is social cohesion that really needs addressing.
Is it any wonder that social cohesion is so sadly lacking in Britain today? Over the last thirty years citizens have become consumers and end-users, solidarity a non-word. The imposition of 'market values', with all-against-competition, to just about every aspect of life has resulted in the complete atomisation of society - could one expect otherwise? How can there possibly be social cohesion in a society where everything and every person has, effectively, been commodified. Whilst an economic system should exist to serve the needs of the population, we have a system where the population is there to serve the needs/requirements of the economy - or are seen as a burden to that system, a system that so obviously puts the wealth of the few above the well-being of the many, where are 'system of values' is based around the idea ""you are what you own"" rather than ""you are what you do/contribute towards society""; a society that has no room for anything that does not make a profit or, at the very least, appeal to consumers. A society where ideals, beliefs or convictions are looked down upon and 'liberal' seems to be seen as the highest aim - Liberal protest song ""We would rather, rather not be moved.."" How can there be any hope of cohesion in such a society.
I would, therefore, suggest that before we start talking about compulsory social years we should maybe start talking about values, ideally values that put people above profits, values that concentrate on quality rather than quantity values that recognise that the worth of a human life is not something that can be measured in financial terms."
UncleJ> OK, sorry I take it back, your second post proves that you're simply extracting the urine, an the second one was a much better attempt.
Uncle J: "Wiltshire is a problem". What's wrong with Wiltshire? Damn fine hunting country Ross Copeland, isn't social cohesion exactly what this article's about?
theoldfeller> My point, which I'll admit was rather hastily, and therefore disjointedly, put together, was that maybe we should be looking at the causes, the disease as it were, rather than simply looking to put some kind of plaster over the symptoms.
"Incredible.
Josh Freedman Berthoud says quite specifically NOT military service, and half the posters bang on about the army.
Not military, dunderheads.
Sounds an interesting idea; get toffs away from the apron strings and chavs away from street corners. Learn to work together and how the other half lives.
Do you know something, in spite of witterings about freedom by such as Followmyheart and others, they might actually enjoy and profit from it. Read Antiqua at 11.03
Might be a bit difficult to organise, though, because one of the essentials would have to be not living at home and learning to accept some form of discipline.
An idea well worth pursuing, though. Which means it won't be."
"Excellent idea from the writer - make it part of the National Curriculum and include the whole UK, so as to avoid the ghettoisation that invidualism has fostered, and I think it's a winning idea. It does remind me of something David Cameron suggested, but the idea has merit regardless.
Of course, to impose anything on anyone in this day and age is almost impossible, which is why I feel it should be made part of the school curriculum.
Comments such as:
What on earth is, 'British identity', anyway? And who needs it...I'm me, isn't that enough ?
could suggest that we have a long way to go to help reduce the individualistic, limiting, ethos that Thatcher helped indoctrinate among our population."
"theoldfeller: ""...irrespective of the views both of libertarian fascists such as Chris1White...""
So you think it's ok for the state - or anyone other than yourself, for that matter - to demand, without allowance of objection, that you work for them? If disagreeing with having that aspect of someone's life controlled by the state makes me a ""libertarian fascist"", then so be it.
sethfreedman: ""Bit touchy, aren't you? do you also disagree with kids having to stay in school till 16? is that an affront to personal freedom - or for their own good, as well as society's?""
It's an entirely different thing, since kids are kept in school principally for their own benefit, not for anybody else's or some nebulous concept of national unity, but I'm not sure I do agree with compulsory education until 16 anyway. Mainly because a lot of kids just don't want to be there and make the place a fucking nightmare for those that do. Or at least they did in my school."
Ross Copeland. "I would suggest that before we start talking about compulsory social years we should maybe start talking about values" Isn't talking about values what we do all the time? A value cannot be plucked from the air, it can only arise from experience. By affecting the experiences of an entire generation, values will change as a result. A well-meaning talking shop will soon go bust in this individualistic society.
"Josh- I like your article very much.
May seem a little idealistic, but we have very few choices now.
Britishness can now be summoned up as Binge drinking, casual sex,loose morals and hooligan behavior. Increase in low level crime, have all been attributed to increased alcohol consumption.
So I guess what you are saying can help influence future behavior. Not bad, a good suggestion.
keep up the good work."
chris1white - 'It's an entirely different thing, since kids are kept in school principally for their own benefit, not for anybody else's' - well, it's all the same, isn't it? if it's in the kid's interest to stay in school, then that means it's for the benefit of society as a whole too. which is what josh is saying, and you're arguing against. i agree, not all kids should stay in school till 16 - it doesn't suit all of them, clearly - but if you're gonna make laws, you have to have some kind of blanket ruling. and if we can decide that kids have to stay studying subjects that many of them couldn't give a damn about till they're 16, then why not make them do a year of charitable, educational field work instead/afterwards?
What a wonderful colligation of remarks. However, in a country where community service is considered punishment, what kind of message would we be sending school leavers by making it compulsory?
Chris1White "So you think it's ok for the state - or anyone other than yourself, for that matter - to demand, without allowance of objection, that you work for them?" It depends what we want the state to be. At the end of the day an effective state is one which enables its citizens to live the best lives they can. Utilitarianism. These means balancing liberty, rights and responsibilites. If the common good is best served by an authoritarian institution- be it the police, parliament or national service along the lines Josh suggests then it is worth doing. There is very little difference between the promotion of freedom as the ultimate goal and the policies of George Bush, as far as I can see.
"JoshFB
Comment No. 377166
""Isn't talking about values what we do all the time? A value cannot be plucked from the air, it can only arise from experience. By affecting the experiences of an entire generation, values will change as a result. A well-meaning talking shop will soon go bust in this individualistic society.""
Sorry Josh, but NO, there is precious little talk of values let alone critical questioning of them. I'm not talking about trite excuses for discourse whereby 'western values' are apparently assumed to be notions such as freedom and democracy, despite a huge amount of evidence to the contrary, I'm taking about values in terms of... well, read my post again. I agree with your comment vis � vis ""well-meaning talking shops"", but schemes such as you propose would equally very soon go bust if not posited within a much broader framework of challenging the causes of ego-centric individualism and resigination in our society. It's a good idea to know where you're going before setting out on a journey.
How about history lessons at school looking at groups such as the Levellers and the Diggers, or how the rights and concessions so rapidly being erroded by our government were gained through people working together, social solidarity, often paid for with their blood?
True, talking about values is not enough, they have to be lived as well - are you reading this Mr. Blair?"
sense We don't need national service to get rid of MSRA look at these figures from Europe. MRSA England 44,5% France 5.9% Netherlands 1.0% Sweden 0.7% Norway 0.2% We topped the poll with Greece, could it be the English and Greeks are a dirty lot, haven't heard of soap! as the Aussies say my throats as dry as a Pommies towel.
"theoldfeller: ""These means balancing liberty, rights and responsibilites... There is very little difference between the promotion of freedom as the ultimate goal and the policies of George Bush, as far as I can see.""
To borrow from George Monbiot (who doesn't seem to actually to subscribe to this, but there you go...): your right to swing your fists ends where my nose begins. Ie, my rights stop when they impinge on those of others. So given the US president's propensity to bomb other people's countries to get what he wants, I don't consider the George Bush comparison entirely fair.
_AT_ sethfreedman -
I don't think it's the same at all. Education primarily benefits the child being educated, and is more comparable to forcing an umemployed person into a job that they don't want. Compulsory community service is purely to the benefit of others, which shouldn't forced upon school-leavers without their consent."
chris1white - 'Compulsory community service is purely to the benefit of others' - ie mutual backscratching, right? if your kid's helping keep my park clean, and mine helps sweep your streets, then we're all laughing, aren't we? i just don't see how it's a negative idea that josh is proposing.
taffetawindbag: "in a country where community service is considered punishment, what kind of message would we be sending school leavers by making it compulsory?" This is precisely my problem. We currently hold the idea of helping others in our community in such low regard that we relegate it to a form of punishment. It's true that the first wave of national service intake might regard it as such, given that this is the current climate, but the hope is that in time people would achieve a greater sense of self worth and achievement from such work, as well as a securer sense of how they relate to wider society. Furthermore, by moving community service away from the world of retributive justice towards being an all inclusive standard duty, it would soon be regarded as such - no longer a punishment, rather a service in which we should all partake and from which we all, as a community, benefit.
"Hi Seth
There is little doubt what Britishness (for which read Englishness) is about. Its just the people asking the questions don't like the answers very much - but there are positive sides to all the negatives people focus on.
People look at all the drunken behaviour on weekend evenings - but as Kate Fox observed in her book Watching the English, that's really just a consequence of people overcoming a deeply engrained sexual reserve. Sexual approaches that would embarass either or both parties when sober become deniable at 11.30pm (or whenever).
Politically there is a preference for the pragmatic over the idealistic - we're strong on empiricism. Unfortunately that sometimes spills over into a suspicion towards education but it doesn't have to be like that.
People from more gregarious countries (such as the Mediterranean) often mistake English reserve for tolerance - but its actually just an aversion to making a 'scene'. But if you push them too far, their anger is hard to appease.
However, the English do seem to have a sincere attachment to liberty and justice. The PC brigade sometimes forget that when they push their arguments to ridiculous extremes.
Everyone from abroad who has lived here for a certain length of time recognises what makes this country unlike any other, for good and ill.
Britain has been receiving and assimilating waves of immigrants for hundreds of years, even thousands of years. Take the long view - look at the grandkids of the Italian immigrants of the 1950s, or the Portuguese and Spanish of the 1960s. They're almost indistinguishable from the majority of white culture.
No need for national service - just to recognise that the country has a rhythm all of its own."
"Followyourheart - ""This idea is the biggest piece of crock I've ever heard. As a democratic nation, our voice should be sufficiently strong already""
Ideals are ideals, but as we all know our collective voice is not sufficiently strong. If it was, we would not have the record levels of low-voter turnouts that we currently do.
I was suggesting that National Service may bring international and national issues to the forefront of many apathetic people within this country. I stand by that argument."
Chris1White: �To borrow from George Monbiot... your right to swing your fists ends where my nose begins.� Not if you stick your nose in my face it doesn�t. But hey ho, lets talk in slogans. Easier than constructing a coherent argument.
"I wrote: 'ethically white' Sorry. Must be Freudian.
To further risk attack, the example of Wiltshire is mirrored across most of the shires and all but reflected in the national picture:
'The majority of the UK population in 2001 were White (92 per cent). The remaining 4.6 million (or 7.9 per cent) people belonged to other ethnic groups.'
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=455
If part of the purpose is to introduce our youth to the richness of the cultural diversity of this country I am at a loss as to how one would achieve this end given the overwhelming dominance of one ethnic group.
For every 100 conscripts 92 would be white. How is that going to make the rest of the ethnic megamix feel? Included, or intimidated?
The only means to pursue this would be via some hideous and patronising theme park style artifice."
"Lovenkrantz: ""Take the long view - look at the grandkids of the Italian immigrants of the 1950s, or the Portuguese and Spanish of the 1960s. They're almost indistinguishable from the majority of white culture.""
I'm not sure that asking people to conform to and be absorbed by a majority white culture is the greatest ideal. Immigrants have a right to preserve the uniqueness of their own identity whilst doing their best to survive in the country in which they live. The national service model would allow their own identity to become a formative part of a new British identity, along with all the other identities which make up the service's intake.
No need for national service - just to recognise that the country has a rhythm all of its own.
Every country has a rhythm. Hard to get us all to dance to it though, isn't it? (Do you see what I did there?)"
"Someone else wrote an article suggesting civilian National Service a little while back. What occurred to me was that it would require a tremendous amount of backup, in organisation / bureaucracy and in finding and paying competent supervisors - people who could lead, drive, motivate, bunches of quite likely unmotivated youths in different tasks and projects all over the country. Where is all this to come from?
Possibly, though, this kind of thing might be initiated at a local level where for one reason or another local conditions make some form of it particularly feasible. And if the school-leaving age really is going to go up to 18, there are bound to be disaffected older kids who would gain more from some work experience than being in a classroom (it might make them want to come back to the classroom, come to that).
I see Freedman has spent time in Israel. A couple of paragraphs on the role of National Service in that country would have been an interesting addition to this article.
But I don't think civilian National Service, with its costs, is a frontrunner in terms of priorities. The most pressing priority now for this government is to spend all that is needed on the forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, as long as they have to be there - and on living quarters, and casualties, back here. We should look after our real army better before creating some paraphrase of one.
As for ""Britishness"" and identity, they exist to be mulled over in pubs and on the web, indefinitely, by people who enjoy this sort of thing. No amount of official conclaves or money spent will ever come up with a cast-iron answer. Might as well spend it on lot of pints of Theakston's Old Peculier."
"WallyMcWhinger ""Followyourheart: Your name betrays the selfishness of your views. ""I thought we were supposed to be fighting for freedom"". The obsession with the freedom of the individual has overcome all sense of perspective of the individual's duty""
Did you not read my whole post WallyMcWhinger. I was advocating a more egalitarian eduaction system, can't see what's selfish about that. I also said that schools could also engage with community projects that their pupils can get involved in - again don't see what's selfish about that. Don't see why we have to enforce post-school national service to boot.
You know my post was about the possible slide towards using this as a top up to the governments armed forces recruitment crisis - which they only have themselves to blame for - not our kids.
On a personal level, I've been involved as a volunteer with recycling groups, school government, fundraising, teaching kids to swim, care in the community - just to name a few."
"israelvisitor Comment No. 377263 January 12 14:06 GBR Someone else wrote an article suggesting civilian National Service a little while back. What occurred to me was that it would require a tremendous amount of backup, in organisation / bureaucracy and in finding and paying competent supervisors - people who could lead, drive, motivate, bunches of quite likely unmotivated youths in different tasks and projects all over the country. Where is all this to come from?""
Nowhere, because it's complete bullshit
So when the supervisor gets told to fuck off, where do you go from there?
""Might as well spend it on lot of pints of Theakston's Old Peculier.""
The best suggestion here by several light years"
"oldfeller: ""But hey ho, lets talk in slogans. Easier than constructing a coherent argument.""
I did follow that slogan with an argument...
sethfreedman: ""if your kid's helping keep my park clean, and mine helps sweep your streets, then we're all laughing, aren't we? i just don't see how it's a negative idea that josh is proposing.""
Not if my kid's being forced into it against his will I'm not, no."
chris1white - 'not if my kid's being forced into it against his will...' - then the same can be applied to taxation, can't it? i could complain that i'm forced to pay tax, thus why should i pay it, even though it's benefiting society. ok, you could extrapolate that and make a case for it, but then the whole thing falls apart, doesn't it? the greater good requires sacrifices on all our parts. anyway - enjoy the weekend, bye.
"Further to my earlier comment, trying to impose national service is probably the most effective way of breaking the United Kingdom up!
The lack of a clear British identity is a mark of British success. The lack of a need for one even more so.
[englandismdotcom] Does Godwin's Law apply on nonsubthreaded forums?"
"Let's leave out of account the offensiiveness of putting Muslim ghettoisation and Jewish yeshiva attendnace on a par with BNP membership (maybe brain not fully engaged? - sure hope so) a more substantive point is why should the organisations involved - military or otherwise, forced to take on many unwilling ""conscripts"" be made to pay for the cultural or behavioural probelms of the UK
I have managed staff who had absolutely no interest in their job whatsoever. Yes - I did persvere with them but a Saint would still have failed with some. It is an organisationally draining experience.
I remember once hearing a senior army officer have a go at a ""crusty"" who suggested conscription was an asnwer to what was then still termed juvenile delinquency. The officer told him smartly that the army was not there to do social/prison work. Quite."
"""At the age when the richest children jet off to Thailand while the poorest gather, gloomy on street corners;""
Unity would be better promoted if the citizenry who wished to jet off to Thailand had the wherewithal to do it. Unity would be better embedded if people could realise their objectives or dreams, or if they didn't, money would NOT be/have been the reason why they didn't achieve them. No, not national-military service, my friend, but SOCIALISM, the levelling of society. Whether that means to the highest or lowest common denominator (within the provisions of the national cornucopia) would be up to HMG and the citizenry. But a society that continues to be as unfair as the present one cannot be unified, and it is foolish even to think of it."
"It never has been a sense of Britishness that binds a community together
Communtities are cohered not by communual and illusory ties to a nation state
The world marches on and we cannot regain the past which is lost forever (thankfully)
There already are countless institutions that are experienced and shared by inhabitants of the British Isles, but real cohesion is gained through how we consider ourselves not experiences shared.
Communities are not forced they are formed so making people attend any form of national service will not bring them closer any more than a large Comprehensive school is made homogeneous by a uniform.
The question is not how to make everybody feel more similar and ""British"" but rather how to make the many inevitable groups that Human society throws up live together in harmony within one country. National service wont do it."
englandismdotcom "For every 100 conscripts 92 would be white. How is that going to make the rest of the ethnic megamix feel? Included, or intimidated?� What do you mean by ethnically white? The term masks an extraordinary range of cultures and backgrounds. Diversity is not measured by skin colour. You only have to walk down any central city street to see & hear the vast complexity of our (predominantly white skinned) society. So in every hundred, 92 white people are not going to feel any more homogenous than the reaiming 8 non whites. A 20 year old white Londoner and a 20 year old black Londoner are likely to have more in common than a white Swede living in Bournemouth and a white Lancastrian
"OhComeOn: ""making people attend any form of national service will not bring them closer any more than a large Comprehensive school is made homogeneous by a uniform. The question is not how to make everybody feel more similar and ""British"" but rather how to make the many inevitable groups that Human society throws up live together in harmony within one country. National service wont do it.""
I disagree. National service would be a way of exposing disparate - and, equally, homogenous elements of society - to one another and allowing them to interrelate on an equal footing. It would physically provide the context for the harmony that you merely talk about in vague terms. It is not the imposition of a school uniform, i.e. the attempted imposition of homogeneity, but rather it is putting everyone in the same classroom and seeing how they interact. In the end they would all define themselves as graduates of that class and so would be bound to one another in this way. This needn't be an exclusive identity -national identity needn't supercede other, more personal identities. But it would be an identity that everyone would be able to recognise in themselves and one another and so could serve as a unifying identity, if not a primary one."
"Israelvisitor - ""I see Freedman has spent time in Israel. A couple of paragraphs on the role of National Service in that country would have been an interesting addition to this article.""
I agree, it would have been an interesting addition. Although, national service in Israel has been in many ways divisive - especially due to the amounts of religious Jews who magae to avoid it (with the blessing of the government), as well as the many Arabs (Christians and Muslims) who are exempt.
On the other hand, the provisions for social volunteering as an alternative to soldiering has proved highly effective, and is a wonderful blessing for the country and for the school-leavers who participate in the scheme. My sister-in-law is moving to Israel in August to volunteer in this scheme, as she feels it is worthwhile for herself and for the country to give to the country before she studies at university. I am sure other youth would relish similar opportunities in this country if they were readily available and accessible!"
"FollowYourHeart: ""On a personal level, I've been involved as a volunteer with recycling groups, school government, fundraising, teaching kids to swim, care in the community - just to name a few.""
Glad to see you do a lot of good work for charidee. Keep it up!"
"So, Mr Berthoud, can I take it that you are disqualified either by age or ill-health from this universal conscription of yours?
Can I also take it that you are too young to remember when we had conscription (as I can)? It was practically 50 years ago.
Who, exactly, is going to experience this altruistic euphoria? Certainly not the squaddies. Or their families. Perhaps only a few ideologs from the scribbling classes who indulge themselves in writing such drivel as this?"
I can't help but be amused at the thought of a horde of inner city Hoodies, fighting amongst themselves, for the privilege of helping a rural pensioner, like myself, across the road.
"Dear Sir
In keeping with the fine liberal traditions of the Guardian, I would like to suggest the reintroduction of pressganging as a substitute for national service. Like so many of your readers, I find the idea of compelling young men and women to undertake some form of community or regional or national service utterly ridiculous. There would be no value at all in having our youth learn to work together, communicate across across cultures, learn new skills and make a contribution to society in a way which would benefit everybody. I would also hasten to add that the thought of making new friends and acquaintances and possibly learning more about other parts of the British Isles has no merit whatsoever.
Like many of the contributors to these august pages, I think that your suggestion that there is absolutely no idea at all that you meant military service is one to be treated with utter contempt as I froth at the mouth and jump and and down. Get them all in uniform I say!
I did not do national service at all and it never did me any harm. I shall be cancelling my subscription.
How dare you sir!"
I think that the chancellor Mr. Brown (our future Prime Minister) embodies the very best of Britishness. Josh writes that " an entire generation of Britons will have a common point of reference to form the cornerstone of a new British identity". Surely this is exactly the kind of thing our new Prime Minister will be calling for?
"""It is not the imposition of a school uniform, i.e. the attempted imposition of homogeneity, but rather it is putting everyone in the same classroom and seeing how they interact.""
Er... that's what most children do already at school. My points remain - it's objectionable as forced labour and it would be a colossal waste of resources. I am sure, say, those waiting for treatment on the NHS or schools with inadequate resources would be most chuffed at money being spent on this instead.
Concepts of national identity are utterly vacuous and meaningless. Please write about something that actually matters."
Josh- how about another article on the three types of negativity displayed on CIF: 1)Those who cant be bothered to read what you write and just want to sound their own trumpet (e.g. the many posts who thought you were writing about military service, an argument they proceeded to demolish, even though you had already clearly said that was not you theme). 2)The �yes buts�.. i.e it�s a great idea but it will never work. 3)The life-haters who just want to whinge without having anything positive or constructive to contribute. Its not surprising we live in such an unhappy society with that lot around. Thank you to those who thought it was a good, constructive article that just, might, make a difference and should be debated seriously.
"Tony Blair has now contributed to this discussion. In a lecture in Devonport today he said that to retain Britain's position as a world power we must make sure that our armed forces are still strong enough to engage in wars of intervention around the world and not to relapse into mere peacekeeping. There have to be at least one or two countries prepared to support the USA in securing world peace. The shade of Anthony Eden must be proud of him - long live the Empah!!
Perhaps he is right. There is nothing like the pride of maintaining Britain's god-given mission to rule the waves, civilise the world and bring enlightenment to those beyond the pale to unite this Land of Hope & Glory. We should tighten our belts and pay for another Trident or two (can they be made from old saucepans and park railings?) while standing shoulder to shoulder with any US President who takes a dislike to some wog, wop or nigger who annoys him. National Service for all would be esential for this programme.
Anybody feel like contributing to a fund to prosecute Blair for waging an illegal aggressive war?"
"JonP - most people who go to school in this country do not have the opportunity of mixing with those of other cultures and faiths, as the author (Josh) pointed out in his article. Your argument about a waste of resources is missing the points that (a) this will save resources through community work which is currently undefunded and in high demand and (b) that it will encourage members of our society to feel more unified with each other and with the country, thus creating a more productive society riddled with less problems which cost vast sums to deal with (such as crime, etc).
theoldfeller - your cynicism strikes a chord with me. It is a real shame that people on this site would rather gripe and moan, than to take an innovative idea (such as the one in this article) and grapple with how to adopt it for the betterment of our country."
"""I can't help but be amused at the thought of a horde of inner city Hoodies, fighting amongst themselves, for the privilege of helping a rural pensioner, like myself, across the road"" - QueenofHearts.
Yes, hoodies, one of the symbols of our disunity. Drafting them will not bring about unity. Knowing the kind of jobs the national servcice executives would have in store for them it would be better for them to subvert the system. Better would be to allow the hoodies the opportunity to attend that 15204-quid-a-year-""public"" school near Westminster that was mentioned recently by some MP in another article, Penny something, I think. The way society is going at present, I see the hoodies as eventually playing a significant role in the cadre that would bring about the national catharsis; thereafter we could discuss unity. (The only, albeit crude, cathartic model I can think of in recent times was the coming into power of the Sam Doe government in Liberia around 1980 - got the old guard out good 'n' proper. But the followup was disastrous; the followup wasn't socialism, it was disorder)."
"Social cohesion and responsibility is better addressed at school. Decently funded education with superb facilities and motivated, well supported and respected teachers would be more useful than packing kids off late in their teens to try to undo bad habits. The state has kids from age 5 to give them a sense of cohesion and inclusion, if they haven't got it by the time they leave something is going wrong somewhere.
Also, the danger would be that national service would start off with community works and painting old people's homes, but then slowly morph into military service. The kids might be given options to spend two months at a geriatric hospital or two months abroad in the sun on an army base. Free choice of course, but many would take the sun. Military national service introduced by the back door, which is the government's favourite portal as we have seen these past few years."
"Ross Copeland
It is clear from your comments that you know nothing about social cohesion.
Englandismdotcom
Regarding Wiltshire. If 98.3% of the population is ethically white as you say then what is the position regarding the other 1.7%? A different colour or simply unethically white? What sort of bigotry is this?!?!?!
Someone else asked what was wrong with Wiltshire - read what Englandismdotcom had to say about it. I had to go out I was so incensed."
"Jona32, you're right: trying to remedy social cohesion at the teenage stage is closing the stable door 12 years after the calf has bolted.
I don't see the solution in school though. Children need to be taught respect for their parents, but especially also for other adults, by their parents, from a very early age on. Many parents lose the battle already when their child is about 2 years old. They don't have the conviction, let alone the time, to educate their children properly. Three days ago spent an instructive 25 mins in the train watching a 2 year old answering his mother back at every turn, ignoring her instructions and bad mouthing other passengers ('f..ing git'). Mother squirming, but entirely incapable of dealing with it."
I was only born in 1963, but I have always thought that I would have enjoyed National Service. The nearest I ever came to it was attending a boys' grammar school, and I can still remember the feeling of 'belonging' or camaraderie which such an institution engendered, even if some of it stemmed from our resisting arbitrary and petty rules. I have never experienced it since. I often wonder whether older people's nostalgia for the war stems from a similar positive experience of the whole nation being "in it together".
"'What do you mean by ethnically white?'
I mean what HMG means in terms of the census question as asked for the first time in 1991. No, cultural diversity is not determined by appearance and certainly, yes, there is diversity within the majority population but this is relatively marginal.
Reductio ad absurdum could lead us to many examples of implausible difference but the scenario I present is plausible. In the attempt to make us 'better' people this proposed attempt at mass social engineering could have unintended consequences.
I have worked in the lucrative world of diversity consultancy and can, sadly, confirm that the enforcement of conformity to the message of diversity often achieves the exact reverse.
Uncle Joe I previously corrected the typo. The stats are from HMG so blame the bigotry on those who responded and compiled the UK census. Wiltshire is pretty consistent with other counties you will find.
englandism.com does what it says on the tin BTW. It's like virtual Marmite, love it or hate it. It is not really directed at cheery chaps such like Joseph Stalin."
Bellissimo article Josh....complimenti.. PERO' British Nationalism has been in existence in the United Kingdom since the end of the Second World War (and i think that we can compare it with Mussolini's movement FASCISMO) This term has mainly been used to express the wish of such groups to remove the UK from the European Union!!!!!(Meshugaim!!!) to preserve British culture, and to actively campaign against ethnic minority equality rights and asylum seekers. So i don't agree with that (it's high time british people started to feel European because you are ) , the idea about bringing back national service-not obligatory- is brilliant and i think that with this service people could get a sense of what is really going on around them in their "spatium tempus". In Italy young people are doing conscientious objector...helping people with hadicap or old people....a help for the community.....
|UncleJ, who you calling someone else?
"JoshFB ""Comment No. 377333 January 12 14:43 GBR OhComeOn: ""making people attend any form of national service will not bring them closer any more than a large Comprehensive school is made homogeneous by a uniform. The question is not how to make everybody feel more similar and ""British"" but rather how to make the many inevitable groups that Human society throws up live together in harmony within one country. National service wont do it.""
I disagree. National service would be a way of exposing disparate - and, equally, homogenous elements of society - to one another and allowing them to interrelate on an equal footing. It would physically provide the context for the harmony that you merely talk about in vague terms. It is not the imposition of a school uniform, i.e. the attempted imposition of homogeneity, but rather it is putting everyone in the same classroom and seeing how they interact. ""
This is conscription and you are completely insane - it is not for the state to dispose of our lives in such an authoritarian manner - that is the loss of liberty. So what's being said here, that the previous bouts of social engineering are starting to fall to bits and therefore we are going to have a dose of conscription to try and stick the wheels back on?
I know what my kids and nephews would say to any suggestion that they should pick up dog shit in the park at the command of some jumped up [prat, thereby deferring their education and careers.
Same as I say, fuck you"
"Josh Those unifying identities exist already, how would your proposel be superior in lessening differences within those unifying identities? Beyond that, the real results of social engineering projects are highly unpredictable, where your intention may be noble your methods are at worst risky and at best risky.
The real way to unify is not enforced top down solutions.
There is a national service in Sweden (although to be fair not the same kind you propose but a military NS) and the Swedish Govt is phasing it out. It is recognised to be pointless in both military and social terms (and expensive). People come out of it with the same differences and social groupings and identitys as they went in and in many cases it serves to re-inforce feelings of alienation from what is percieved (rightly) as an authoritarian state. There is greater social cohesion in Sweden even with record immigration but it achieved through highly funded state education promoting a more equal society. Not a national service."
"Jon P: ""Er... that's what most children do already at school.""
The classroom reference was an extension of the metaphor created by another comment poster. If you look at the article, you will see why I don't believe the physical classroom achieves an adequate level of social cohesion.
""Concepts of national identity are utterly vacuous and meaningless. Please write about something that actually matters.""
Could you, then, please write about something that's written about something that matters. Unless of course it matters rather more than you're letting on.
In truth, the important thing is not national identity but the national cohesion that arises from it. This article is not about binding people to the state, but putting them in a situation in which they may bind themselves together. To argue that this is meaningless is to adopt an individualistic stance depressingly dismissive of the society in which you, presumably, live."
Radished - Your children have obviously inherited their sense of community, their respect for others and their manners from their parents.
"Tony Blair also said that Britain would lose its influence on global warming, poverty in Africa, etc if we were no longer prepared to fight interventionist wars!
I believe that we are more likely to be listened to if we emphasise our common interests with people around the world than if we try to establish an exclusive and integrated UK based British identity. The Commonwealth is also British still and we recently had an application from a French speaking country!
Brenzone
One of the points I tried to make in my earlier post (11.30) was that it is the sequestered inhabitants of expensive public schools (like the one near Westminster that I went to) who are most in need of integration with the rest of society. This is especially the case because their exclusive mentality is dangerous when they get into positions of power in business and politics. They above all need to learn respect for their fellows and understand the reactions of those they tend to patronise (Hug a hoody?). Clearing a blocked toilet in a well-used shithouse is a salutary experience for a member of the privileged elite. The ability to parse Latin verbs, manipulate iambic pentameters or interpret stock exchange statistics somehow becomes irrelevant to the needs of the moment, especially in half a gale at sea!"
Antiqua: "I believe that we are more likely to be listened to if we emphasise our common interests with people around the world than if we try to establish an exclusive and integrated UK based British identity." Emphasising a global, human identity is a valid, if somewhat ethereal ideal. However, I don't see why any one of individual, local, regional, national, European or world identities should preclude any or all of the others.
"""TigerDunc Comment No. 377484 January 12 16:07 GBR Radished - Your children have obviously inherited their sense of community, their respect for others and their manners from their parents.""
Well I hope so, it is called liberty - it is not for the state to conscript except in the case of direst emergency, still less on the basis of half-arsed social-engineering to attempt to rectify previous failing efforts. During WW1 we didn't have conscription till April 1916 ao alien was the concept to freedom.
Anyway it is necessary to cut through this miasma of proto-authoritarian bullshit
Conscript CSV 1) Too arse-holed from last night to crawl out of bed
CSV 2) Has spent the last 4 days painting 1 fence post, disappeared for constant fag breaks
CSV 3) Tells the ""team-leader"" to stick his gardening hoe up his arse.
What do you? Court martial them for mutiny?
I don't want my kids - who want to get on with their lives - to be spending time pissing about with ""NEETs"", young offenders etc etc
Don't like it - tough shit. This is something that needs strangling at birth"
"Radished: ""I know what my kids and nephews would say to any suggestion that they should pick up dog shit in the park at the command of some jumped up [prat, thereby deferring their education and careers.
Same as I say, fuck you""
Menial work too good for you, friend?
Tigerdunc: ""Radished - Your children have obviously inherited their sense of community, their respect for others and their manners from their parents. ""
Priceless."
"""Menial work too good for you, friend?""
Can you not see it is servitude, loss of liberty here?
""Priceless.""
Well if reckons I've been abusive has he not the wit to see what it would like on some scheme?
If he said ""Oh Priceless"" to the wrong Conscript CSV he might get a brick in his face.
If you want conscription then press for a referendum - as opposed to a messianic arsehole like Blair ramming it thru Parliament on the basis of FPTP and a supine political faction, because he's had another vision."
"Not sure what it's got to do with unifying the country, but I think a period of national social service would be an excellent idea. The problem would be paying for it, perhaps.
Most teenagers would benefit from learning about something for which you have to get up in the morning, rain or shine, and which benefits mainly others rather than yourself. It would teach them there are things you can do with your life other than loafing, whatever makes the most money or whatever is the trendiest thing to do a the moment. They would find it rewarding and educational. You might find more people deciding to go into a career in those kinds of jobs having experienced it, but at the very least taking what they learn into the rest of their lives."
"Wally
I think you are agreeing with me. I want us to continue to look outwards to the rest of the world, not waste effort trying to define an exclusive UK British identity and make all the residents of the UK conform to it. We want understanding tolerance of our differences, not slavish uniformity. Long may we have people living here whose first language is not English, whether they be Gaelic, Welsh, Punjabi, Gujerati, Tamil, Hindi, Polish, Magyar, Urdu, Mandarin or Arabic speakers. Not a bad idea for them to learn English as well though!
Certainly there is no chance of imposing our ways on the rest of the world, even with Tony Blairs new model striking force. Anyway the Americans have taken over that ambition."
Antiqua: "Long may we have people living here whose first language is not English, whether they be Gaelic, Welsh, Punjabi, Gujerati, Tamil, Hindi, Polish, Magyar, Urdu, Mandarin or Arabic speakers. Not a bad idea for them to learn English as well though!" We both agree that this might be a good state for the state to be in, but I would argue that all these people, as well as white, historically English people, need a common language - both literally and culturally - in which to communicate. Diversity is only desirable when it doesn't lead to division. And unity - not uniformity - on a local and then on a national level is surely a great way to ensure unity on an international level. Of course, unity on an international level can be achieved by superceding local or national boundaries, but to do so risks instability in one's immediate environment. I still contend that an institution such as national service that brings disparate elements of society together is a viable and valuable step towards achieving local, regional and national understanding. This in turn would create a stability and an understanding of human variety that would translate into a more considered and experienced international outlook.
"Wally
Yes we are in agreement! However, as somebody with a relatively small proportion of ""traditionally white English"" blood, some of whose ancestors were living here about 1,000 years before the Angles and Saxons arrived, I would prefer the English to be a little less arrogant about their conquest of the rest of the British Isles, but it is difficult to break an old habit.
There is little danger of my relatives claiming the right of return to the whole of England, even with the example of Israel to encourage us, but I think that the English should accept that they are also immigrants. The Romans had the wrong immigration policy and should never have hired those Germans as coastguards."
"WallyMcWhinger
""NS...would create a stability and an understanding of human variety that would translate into a more considered and experienced international outlook""
But so would raising the school leaving age and funding a real and fair education system for everybody. Why hark back to tried and failed (both in Britain and other countries)national service.
Britain should start with dealing with massive inequality within its society if it wants to address alienation from Britishness.
Although personally I think this obsession with nation states is unhealty and divisive, but on a larger scale."
"Forgetabaout anything at age 18
Get ALL kids into a decent pre school nursery at age 2.
There is no one solution to all the problems we face in the UK.
National Service 100% stupid."
"WallyMcWhinger
""Glad to see you do a lot of good work for charidee. Keep it up!""
indeed, and I learnt the alue of doing so at school.
ohcomeon
""The real way to unify is not enforced top down solutions.
There is a national service in Sweden (although to be fair not the same kind you propose but a military NS) and the Swedish Govt is phasing it out. It is recognised to be pointless in both military and social terms (and expensive). People come out of it with the same differences and social groupings and identitys as they went in and in many cases it serves to re-inforce feelings of alienation from what is percieved (rightly) as an authoritarian state. There is greater social cohesion in Sweden even with record immigration but it achieved through highly funded state education promoting a more equal society. Not a national service.""
Well said, I said as much in my first post and I know nothing about the Swedish experience, anyone with a tiny bit of insight could work it out. I am grateful for you sharing a real expereince to confirm it though.
There is much more to be sceptical about such an initiative being launched in this country and reading Antiqua's post about Blair should be sufficient to alert any right-thinking person about potential outcomes before blindly happy-clapping the idea.
Masters and servants still, I think. This would, in the end prove to be nothing more than an opportunity for the children of the elect to practice their ""leadership"" skills on an unsuspecting and compliant group.
It insists there will never be an egalitarian education system in theis country and that should be deplored not applauded."
"disposal of that worthless prehistoric relic, the royal family would be a great start on the way to finding some identity
britain is a multicutural society that supposed to be based on equality irrespective of race or class but what does it choose as it culural figure head
a bunch of white prodestant anglo germans living in absolute spendour and wealth and all paid for by everyone else, including black, brown, yellow,pink, and maybe even green coloured citizens who are sometimes mightily struggling to survive
not a great example to anyone
adapt and survive, first rule of evolution"
"WallyMcWhinger
""I still contend that an institution such as national service that brings disparate elements of society together is a viable and valuable step towards achieving local, regional and national understanding. This in turn would create a stability and an understanding of human variety that would translate into a more considered and experienced international outlook.""
Sounds great Wally. So I suppose you have no problem with achieving this via the school system then?"
To Mill84....Are you so lacking in self-worth that you feel you have to identify yourself with something 'Bigger', than yourself ? 'Britishness','Queen and country', or as one of the Brown-haired ? Sorry if it irks you, but I need no such emotional crutches.
This piece begs only one question: what will CiF stoop to offer us on 1st April?
Could be a good idea. Increase the school leaving age to 18 and make national/community? service part of the curriculum? It might mean young people seeing another side of their own community, which could be a good thing.
"Josh Freedman Berthoud ""...this service would include every youth in Britain, regardless of race, religion, origin or background"".
I've read this sort of stuff before.
What these jurno/commentators have never considered is what they would do with the kids who refused 'National Service', or, what would happen to the ones that went along reluctantly. What would the punishments be for not conforming. Of course never discussed.
There have been many nationalistic youth movements, there aim is to control and propagandise young people into believing the state knows best. Critical thinking is not permitted.
Colleges of higher education are struggling to exist because of the lack of government funding. These institutions are places that young people (and old) can learn and get qualifications in what ever subject they are interested in.
Josh's edited Thatcher quote said it all for me but here is a little more: ""There is no such thing as society; there are individuals, men and women, and there are families."" She also said, ""..if there was no choice there would no ethics, no good or evil: good and evil have meaning only in so far as man is free to choose."" Thatcher was/is very religious and spoke complete rubbish."
"If you want a positive spin put on ""British identity"" it's a MYTH; if you prefer the truth, it's a LIE.
A sense of British identity was created to help maintain the power structures of this nation state, on which we all depend, of course, but which developed (not accidentally) to serve especially the interests of those in wealth and power.
In so doing, it exploits the individual's emotional need for a sense of common identity, purpose and belonging - the product of millions of years of evolution that occurred before the advent of civilisation when humans lived in extended, but still relatively small, family groups.
In the past, the British people were told, by those in power and authority, who they were, where they belonged, and to whom they owed their loyalty: to the British government, Parliament, the King (or Queen), and to their employers.
Now, we have the freedom and the technology, once we choose to use it, to decide, each for ourselves, who we are (our identity), where we belong, and with whom we wish to identify - but no one yet seems to have noticed . . . . .
My homepage: http://www.spaceship-earth.org"
"""What these jurno/commentators have never considered is what they would do with the kids who refused 'National Service', or, what would happen to the ones that went along reluctantly. What would the punishments be for not conforming. Of course never discussed.""
That's what I want to know
Conscript CSV 1) Too arse-holed from last night to crawl out of bed
CSV 2) Has spent the last 4 days painting 1 fence post, disappeared for constant fag breaks
CSV 3) Tells the ""team-leader"" to stick his gardening hoe up his arse.
What do you? Court martial them for mutiny?"
Ay, nationalism - certainly beats the UN - so long as you're 'top dog' of course. The self-interestd certainly know how to spin a good yarn.
Wouldn't it be nice if we all appreciated each other? But we don't. Some cultures/ideas are just not palatable. People have different tastes, whether influenced by up-bringing or character. Will forcing people together necessarily make them like each other? If we need cohesion, look to the common ground we share. We are weak humans who need money and bow (eventually) to power. Integration is never as purely experienced as when you are fighting over a fare. As long as we have free trade and an effective legal system (as if!) we're all on the same page.
"radished, ""Too arse-holed..."",and ""...up his arse.""
The problem is people like yourself, obsessed with the bottoms of young people.
Think about it."
Edwardrice: "Thatcher was/is very religious and spoke complete rubbish." I think you'll find that was precisely the point Josh was making. A tip for reading between the lines is to read the lines themselves, too.
Why not do a swap? Send the poor kids (because lets face it, thats what they are) to do community service with the wealthy, whilst the private school brigade get to wash graffiti/help the aged/dish out dinners to the disadvantaged. The ideal of national service is a good one but the problem we have is that the class system is already too divided for it to work properly. The poor know poverty - they're in no rush to embrace it with community good will. And most of those born into wealth will look upon it with grace and humbling individuality but will it really, truly give a sense of identity to one and all? Ofcourse I'm generalising - thats the point of forums like this I suppose. But think about it. National identity is a complex, ever changing issue of representation, with regionalistic sense of self we shouldn't ignore. Not having a future is bleak. It breeds nihilism and low self esteem - all of which chip away at society. Howver I reckon the idealism of unity is a noble one. Why not strive for it whenever we can. And does it really matter how we achieve this? Education, state imposed community service, whatever. The point is the more we belong the happier we are. Aim high I say.
Boy, am I sick of being dismissed as "white". It's so racist.
Good point but you are barking against the wrong tree. What we need is World Unity and with the advent of the internet we have it within our grasp. The British "identity" is irrelevant and quite rightly so. If we are going to live in the "Global Village" as we must, if we accept the advance of technology then we have to change the way we think about how to participate in a World which doesn't resemble in any shape or form the one which was mostly coloured pink when I was at school. New World orders have been shaped in the past and proven unsustainable. More of the same seems to be happenning as we speak but will it be ever thus? I could be wrong, and it probably won't happen in my lifetime but I believe one day there will be a rapproachement between all human beings when it becomes apparent that self delusion is counter productive In my dreams of course!
Good point but you are barking against the wrong tree. What we need is World Unity and with the advent of the internet we have it within our grasp. The British "identity" is irrelevant and quite rightly so. If we are going to live in the "Global Village" as we must, if we accept the advance of technology then we have to change the way we think about how to participate in a World which doesn't resemble in any shape or form the one which was mostly coloured pink when I was at school. New World orders have been shaped in the past and proven unsustainable. More of the same seems to be happenning as we speak but will it be ever thus? I could be wrong, and it probably won't happen in my lifetime but I believe one day there will be a rapproachement between all human beings when it becomes apparent that self delusion is counter productive In my dreams of course!
"'The fact is that there is no truly unifying British institutional experience.
And so we must create one.'
A startling non-sequitur. Since most countries manage to get along pretty happily without a similar 'truly unifying ... institutional experience', as have we for pretty much most of history other than during wartime emergencies, why on earth do we need one, other than as a source of cheap involutary labour (not unlike that other truly unifying institutional experience of villeinage that we tried for a while back in the middle ages)?
http://notsaussure.wordpress.com/"
Notsaussure: "Since most countries manage to get along pretty happily without a similar 'truly unifying ... institutional experience', as have we for pretty much most of history other than during wartime emergencies, why on earth do we need one" It's a question of what you consider to be "pretty happy". True, privileged people born into an individualistic society will be able to excel and achieve a degree of general satisfaction in such a climate, as they have the resources, knowledge and self-belief to do so. However, you'll find that there are many who don't share your positivity regarding their position in, and satisfaction with, our society. Individualism, and rather elitist talk of a "world community", works well for those who have the means to thrive as an individual and engage with the wide and wonderful world. Others find that with their horizons restricted, their immediate social environment is important. Social cohesion is an ideal that such people value in order to achieve the "pretty happy" state that you claim "we" already enjoy.
"Maybe as Tony and Gordon have spent most their time in office trying to destroy our sense of national identy, maybe its all a plot so that Gordon can rebuild the country in his image.
Rename it Gordon Britain, Build this new nation with this national service based army :-the Brownshirts. Make sure they wear nice smart Black uniforms, with colour cordinated leather boots and caps. Use his new army of Brownshirts to stop any desent and throw out any 82 year old hecklers. Rename the stock market the Gordaq (what do you mean the Gordaqs already been invented on newsnight) Place gold coloured concrete statues of himself around the place.( wouldnt cost any money and would be yob proof) Then this new self confident nation can march confidenly into Poland, sorry Iran, and defeat the deluded Madman who threatens the world.(and grab some more oil)."
Was it not Gordon who introduced the Loyalty Oath that immigrants have to swear on gaining British citizenship?
"I thought it was David Blunkett, the same Blunkett who said there was no obvious limit on the number of immigrants this country could take. 1000000000000000000000000000000 immigrants enough ?? No, we wouldnt want to limit it would we. You could fit the whole worlds population on the isle of whight apparently. Should be a dodle to accomodate em all in the uk and then some.
Though you can add him to my list of people who have being destroying our sense of national identity."
"WallyMcWhinger
""Social cohesion is an ideal that such people value in order to achieve the ""pretty happy"" state that you claim ""we"" already enjoy.""
You still have responded to my post about us developing our education system accordingly in order to achieve social cohesion - do you ahve a problem with this idea?"
"UncleJ Comment No. 377416 January 12 15:31 GBR
""Ross Copeland
It is clear from your comments that you know nothing about social cohesion.""
My, that was an intelligent comment! I particularly like that adroit manner in which you engaged with my arguments."
"This all links in with the Devolution Debate.
First we must crystallise the Welsh, Scottish and English identities. f the Union survives that then ""Britishness"" will have to be relegated to political mechanism for keeping Union together and National identity altered to reflect British/English British/Welsh British/Scottish - no longer should the indigenous peoples of the UK be denied their national identities.
The Second point is that the UK and the three constituent countries are living breathing societies, national identities, and territories that have distinct long and varied histories. Until very recently they were largely homogenous, although granted the last 10 years of Labour government (in particular) and the EU nightmare of mass immigration has done its best to try and change that.
Immigrants not withstanding, the position is (and should not change) that England (as an example) has a right to preserve its culture and its identity. These rights are in fact part of the United Nations Human Rights outlined in the Draft Declaration of Indigenous Peoples which explicitly confers upon indigenous peoples the absolute right not to be overrun by alien cultures, not to have their societies change beyond recognition, not to submit to multiculturalist tendencies, not to be harrassed or abused by non indigenous cultures and their various demands. In fact the UN Charter is quite specific on a range of issues, expecting the state to protect religious, social, cultural,linguistic, territorial rights of the indigenous population.
It may well be the view of the Guardianistas, that once England has been taken over by people speaking over 138 different languages, and trucked in remorselessly by people using the England as a dumping ground for the worlds poor and economic migrants from anywhere, that the English have somehow ""lost"" their right to their own country - and I can hear the self hatred brigade saying ""and good riddance"".
Unfortunately for you, the behaviour of the left and Labour in particular has been running counter to the prevailing Human Rights guidance, and ""multiculturalism"" as preached by the airey fairy Ken Livingston set has created the worst social / ethnic divisions our society has ever seen.
I take complete issue with Josh - who by his name is one of the very immigrants he speaks so highly of.
It is always amusing to listen to people to Josh, who, almost without a second thought ""expect"" the indigenous population to meet immigrants half way and change their way of life to accommodate them - what utter tosh.
The English (actually) quite like being English and don't take kindly to people telling them what they should be or how they should act especially in their own country.
WHY should the English have to alter their beliefs, values and way of life one iota - they haven't moved anywhere, to them they are living as they always have, in their villages, or towns - it is the incomers who are telling the locals they have to change.
Isn't this the ""tail wagging the dog"". Immigrants are still (so the ""not fit for purpose"" Home Office tell us, 10% of the population. If that is true (which I doubt) then why should 10% of the population be lecturing 90% of the population about how they should live and how they should change and meet immigrants half way?
Why do people flock to England? One assumes because it is a damn site better then the hell holes they have left. Why is it better? Because it is ""unlike"" the hell holes they have left. WHY would England want to alter its practices, values and freedoms to meet immigrants ""half way?""
The more concessions we make to minorities the faster what we have and value is eroded to a meaningless fractous pulp.
The Muslim contingent are now managing to try and make sex discrimination, homophobia and cultural apartheid acceptable - on the grounds of fairness and equality to minorities. They want special tax breaks for polygamy and government funding for their religious schools so they don't have to engage with the (insulting term for a host country) the Dimmi (non Islamics). My retort to people who believe they can just transplant Islamabad to England and continue as they were is this type of behaviour is not only extremely disrespectful of the English, it is unacceptable and damaging to race and community relations. If Pakistani Muslims want to make their home in England, then they have the total responsibility to integrate with the host society, to keep their demands to a minimum and to comply with the values, practices and Christian ethos of the country. If they don't wish to do that then they should stay in Pakistan and carry on living their way of life in a society and culture that is better suited to their way of life.
It's not racist, it's not unkind, it's a simple statement of fact. England and the English want their identity back and immigrants must respect this society and integrate with it."
"fairis> What you have ommitted from your sad, blinkered rant, is the role that england has played, and continues to play, in making what you refer to as 'hell-holes'. The majority world is still suffering from the legacy of english colonialism, where the english showed precious little respect for the culture and customs of the indigenous population. Maybe if england and the other countries that profitted from the slave trade and colonial trading policies that not only completely destroyed economies, cultures and political systems and prevented any form of development right up until the 1950s and 60s, and through the IMF, IBRD and WTO effectively continue to do so, were to start making reparations - the cancellation of all debt would be a good start - maybe then those countries could develop their own economies rather than being locked in a cycle whereby their resources and wealth are simply used to subsidise our economies. Maybe then those people you so fear would neither need nor want to come to little england. OH, and maybe england should stop telling other, sovereign, countries what to do.
A couple of points of fact: Labour is anything but a party of the 'left', unless of course one uses the BNP as marker. The UK is comprised not of three countries, it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (another colonial legacy) and various other territories."
"RossCopeland - there is no grounds for this colonial legacy nonsense you're spouting - the vast majority of British taxpayers today weren't born when the major pieces of empire went, and they've had long enough to be responsible for themselves now - whilst back in Britain, well, perhaps read 'the road to Wigan pier' and think a while on how the British Empire was benefiting the people back here.
People are responsible for themselves."
"Oh Dear Ross Copeland what an embittered anti English person you are, let's get facts to dispell some of your laughable myths.
FACT 1: Wicked English have dominated the world and created the hell holes. The English people and when I say English I am talking about the vast numbers of working people living in England. We have been just as much victims of the colonial legacy than any slave on a sugar plantation or Indian in a sweat shop. The whole Labour movement was created to protect the mass of the population from the ruthless exploitation of the landed gentry and the hoy poloy of the military and monarchy. So pleeeese, don't start trying to lecture me about the wicked ""English"" the overwhelming majority of the population are blameless for the Empire and for the so called atrocities you believe were perpetrated in its name, and even if they were not blameless (which they are) Britain never did anything worse than Spain in conquering South America, Romans in conquering Europe, French In Canada and South America and North Africa, Saladin in spreading Islam across the mediterranean and the zillions of wars fought over the centuries over turf and wealth. So please, if we are in the ""blame game"" why stop at England, why not continue with all those other wicked countries and dictators (Socialist Russia and Communist China and the poor blighted country of Tibet and the wicked extermination of Christians in Darfur etc etc) Many of these countries have always been made up of tribes kicking hell out of eachother, and just because the British Empire was last in a long line of people who believed this was the way to civilise the great unwashed, doesn't mean that every evil on Earth is the fault of Britain.
Afterall India has been free of the Empire and the first 50 years of independence saw the country slam into reverse gear and Africa have never stopped telling us how we ""owe"" them, when they have had goodness knows how many marshall plans ploughed into the place and they still fail to show any signs they want to make a successful continent out of it. There comes a point when people have to take responsibility for themselves and their actions - Britain can't be blamed indefinitely for everything, in the same way we can't keep moaning about the Romans building all those lovely roads, plumbing our toilets, and creating central heating. England can't be continually blamed for building railways, blighting the world with the civil service, and advocating good manners!
If you want to start pointing the finger point it in the right direction:
Northern Ireland - Scots land clearances and landed gentry totally responsible for that one.
Annexation of Scotland to England 300 years ago - England bailed Scotland out after disasterous Empire ambitions fell flat - ""bought and sold for English gold"" I believe the tune hums. Again, grasping Monarch, greedy landed gentry did the deal, no one was consulted as far as I am aware and the vote never existed - so I'm sorry you can't pin that on anyone either.
Unless you were a land/property owner (which the mass of the serf like English population were not) involvement in the political system was an impossible dream. Therefore it seems to me the people who made these decisions in the name of Britain are the ones who should take the blame and deary me - they are all dead - what a shame.
Are you suggesting that the ""sins"" of the father's be visited on the children? Very socialist that one.
No, the English alive today should have no guilt about Empire or any shame for it. They were not asked, they were not involved and they most certainly are not responsibil. In the same way the people who ""suffered"" as you like to put it are also long dead.
Maybe cultures have been changed beyond recognition, in the same way our culture here has been changed beyond recognition - more is probably to do with the internet and Americanisation than anything else (Oh I forgot - wicked America - now we can all feel that little bit better having blamed them for destroying the world - usual bleat from the unemployed Guardianistas).
The fact is modern enlightenment (surprise surprise promoted by Britain, put an end to slavery, put an end to colonialism, and has been paying the price ever since. You want to grow up and get up off your knees and realise that NO ONE alive today in England has anything to be ashamed of NOTHING. We all work damn hard, pay ridiculous taxes to a ridiculous government that (despite all its socialist bluster) makes diabolical old colonial decisions despite the fact the majority of the population (again) wants no involvement.
My concern is that Indigenous People have UN indigenous rights and the English have these rights and deserve to have them respected in the same way every nation has the right to express who and what they are without racial abuse (from people like you) and without the sneering. You might have a guilt complex but I don't !"
"fairis
I know, the truth jurts doesn't it? But, you'll get over it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can say the same for those limbless orphans in Iraq.
Fair and equal education for all is the anser to a peaceful, harmonious world - not enforced labour for school leavers. Our kids are going t be expected to work for nothing, whilst those fat bastards at the top scoop off the cream and steal everyone's pensions. A good system fo the few, no dounb about it, but a lifetime of drudgery and no reward for everyone else.
Fair equals share!"
"YEP - if we had PR then maybe Labour wouldn't have been in the all dominating position to declare war on a false pretence.
At least my conscience is clear - I have never voted Labour in my life and am a staunch advocate of PR.
Maybe one day soon - people who feel the way I do will win the day!"
"The OldFeller,
Apologies that I did not give you credit the other afternoon. I am grateful though for the support I perceived against Ross Copeland's ""arguments"".
Ross Copeland,
My attention has been drawn to your continuing and unwarranted attacks against me since Friday's obviously were insufficient.
One is always concerned about the type of individual who, at two in the morning on a Saturday night, can be found checking to see whether his earlier postings have provoked any response. Perhaps the bierkellers were closed, alternatively the mess hall had emptied and fellow Officers had gone for a good night's shluf with their partners of one persuasion or another, but the absence of anyone for whom to remove your Uniform ought not to have been cause to post another swingeing attack at me or my reluctance to become drawn in with your arguments.
How can an unattached displaced loner lost in the depths of the former Hapsburg Empire possibly know anything about social cohesion anyway? To be excluded from entry to a Gentleman's Club does not make one either chummy with all its members or qualify one to comment upon the Vintage Ports to be found in its cellar. In your case, you appear to be running around St James's blurting to everyone how they woudn't let you in.
I might have been tempted to have a little sympathy and offer you either a mug of warm cocoa or a few bob to catch a cab home, speaking figuratively of course, but then I found out you have been doing it again, in the middle of the afternoon when decent folk would have been enjoying a good Roast...more rantings addressed to fairis.
Perhaps from the depths of a call centre outside Mumbai fairis had the time to reply to you in detail. Well, I have not. You have shown your true colours and I am minded to repeat the comments of edwardrice to radished on Friday night.... Well worth seeking on the thread and sure to tickle your fancy anyway.
Quite!!
You posters should go back and read Josh FB's article and the very good points that he has made instead of dwelling on the rubbish that you have written to and about one another in pursuit of some schoolboy dream but not, sadly, in the interests of good reasoned debate.
Was it The Oldfeller or Englanismdotcom? Wiltshire was perhaps going to be a separate issue but I am not sure now. There has been a press report this weekend about a conviction in Swindon which, at first glance at least, would suggest either that the ethnic white majority is nothing like we had been led to believe or, perhaps worse, there are stirrings of massive unrest amongst the ethnic minorities. It goes quite some way to proving th merit of the ideas in Josh FB's article - alternative we may be reduced to having to place an armed brigade of the Loyal Ross Copelanders outside the Railway Station on a Saturday afternoon with strategic postings by the Shopping Centre and nightclubs as day wears on into night.
Engage in argument with Ross Copeland or that type? Never."
Can someone explain this a little more, please? Does this mean that the rules of accession to the EU said free rights to move and work, ?
No. You had the option to keep your borders closed till 2012. Your governement simply did not use the option. France, Germany... had to open their borders last year, they did it.
At that time there was an option to delay opening the labour market. To the new accession countries. Germany (at that time in recession) opted to delay to fully open the labour market. Now it's different as after that experience the EU has learned does not grant that kind of phased access option.
_AT_RobertSchuman - Thank you!
_AT_naine - Cheers!
"Member nations had the option of opening their borders or not, Britain chose to but the Home Office lied in their original assessment-the UK is unique in giving immediate migrant access as soon as a candidate nation voted to join and signed the Treaty of Rome, not on membership start date, the furor over the massive intake from Poland etc made sure that Labour abandoned this tradition when Romania and Bulgaria voted to join.
Britain traditionally believed that an early open of the borders would give Britain first mover advantage in attracting the most ambitious migrants, something that had cross party support because it such self evident common sense. It was very hard for many taking in so many migrants from the east in such a short space of time but frankly the boon to our national demographics of 500,000 breeding pairs cannot be underestimated if we wish to make pensions available in 15-20 years time. Harsh truth but truth just the same."
Yeah, good on us for being repeatedly mugged off by the rest of Europe. They must think we're a complete joke
It is the standard hypocrisy by the good Europeans. While they give us pious lectures about being bad Europeans, they slam the door shut on their fellow Europeans.
The number of Poles who came was astronomical compared with the predictions - that's why no-one will believe "official estimates" etc.
"Nor the lazy stereotype of ""the lazy British v the hardworking foreigner.""
At least the truth was spoken last night on Question Time .... the Fens had produced cabbages, caulis, onions, flowers, etc etc for generations, but all those who had laboured in the fields were turfed out and replaced by EEs in 12 months.
""And why was that?"" asked DD.
""They were paid less!"" came the reply.
A lot less.
Anyone notice the price of their veg plummet? As likely as the price of your ""beef"" burger plummeting!"
"_AT_TheGreatRonRafferty - By the way, if we're discussing strawberries, these USED to be picked by locals too, at least in the area I taught in at the time to which I refer. The problem for us was that they often took their kids off school to help (and get paid by the farmers).
Farmers are only looking for the cheapest labour. Supermarkets are only looking for the cheapest price. Don't read anything more into it than that."
"_AT_TheGreatRonRafferty - Talking of Question Time last night, anyone else get the feeling that Farage is the only politician who has his finger on the pulse at the minute?
The rounds of applause that greeted his statements were deafening compared to the other panellists and he made the rest of them look like the out-of-touch, Westminster-bound automatons that they are. Who did the people of Lincolnshire (and by God, did they take the brunt of the last wave) agree with almost to a man?
Yup. Ukip."
_AT_TheGreatRonRafferty - presumably migrants still have to be paid the minimum wage right? And I can't see fruit pickers ever getting paid more than the minimum wage, so how can the migrants be being paid less than the indigenous population?
"_AT_petreal (18 January 2013 9:51 AM)
AIUI, the farmers do not employ the fruitpickers directly. Instead they purchase a service from gangmasters who undertake to supply the necessary labour. The fee charged by the gangmaster is not regulated and might be less than the aggregate minimum wage of the fruitpickers employed.
The gangmasters employ the actual fruitpickers to whom they owe at least the minimum wage. Some gangmasters may indeed actually pay the minimum wage but they can recoup a significant proportion of it by making ""deductions"" for services such as accommodation, food and transport to the workplace, which the employees must accept as part of their terms and conditions and which can be charged for at unregulated, inflated rates.
The workers tolerate this partly through ignorance and partly because their eventual income, though lower than it should be, is better than they would have achieved in the home country they remit their wages to.
It's a clever variant of the wage arbitrage that has driven most industrial production to the third and developing worlds.

That at least is my understanding of the situation."
_AT_dogwash48 - Thanks. That makes sense now. It seems then that it's these gangmaster type operations that need to be regulated then. It seems this a serious loophole where an employer can get away with paying less then the minimum wage.
"Many will be here for quite sometime.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/offenders/types-of-offender/foreign
The recent deal signed with the Albanian government for them to take prisoners is deceptive. Its actually shameful that modern day slavers, Albanian traffickers, have seized control of the sex trade in the UK from Coventry to Cardiff and we only have 200 in prison awaiting movement to Albania to serve their sentences.
Unfortunately along with hardworking and honest migrants the UK is number 1 country of relocation for criminals, from serious sex offenders to fraudsters. The housing, welfare and health needs, of themselves and their families provided for by the British taxpayer."
"Yeah lets invite everybody in, Britain's booming, jobs a plenty, there's no shops going bust, the pubs aren't boarded up, there's loads of houses, we are underpopulated, we need millions of more folk to do all this extra work.........
Ah well that's break time over with, just get this straitjacket back on...."
"Yes, the article states clearly that Germany (a few years ago), and now Spain, restrict immigration in order not to weigh down economies in recession.
But Guardian journalists regularly tell us how comfortable we are supposed to be with unbridled immigration (the more the merrier), while berating the government for cuts, the recession etc etc.
It is incoherent."
With freedom of movement for the starving hundreds of millions of the basket case economies of Europe
Has Cameron made Ed Miliband Minister for Europe or something or has there been a general election while I've been looking the other way?
_AT_MaltnHops - Ed Miliband has proceeded from 'One Nation' Labour to 'One Continent' Labour. He's obviously setting his sights on higher things.
Naive...trusting....the guys the same as Blair a liar.
"I knew it wouldn't take long for the ""concerned of Tunbridge Wells"" * to come out of the woodwork.
Sigh.
* my apologies to the people of Tunbridge Wells, who I'm sure are charming."
"I've been to Tunbridge Wells and the stereotypical view is accurate.
Mind you they are usually referred to as ""Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells"""
"Is there something wrong with expressing concern over the level of immigration?
Trying to belittle people with genuine concern smacks of arrogance."
"Congrats on your ability to ignore an argument based upon its perceived provenance. If the Guardian did it I'd ask them to award you a silver star, with a gold star to follow if you manage to lever the words ""Thatcher"" or ""Tory Scum"" into your next comment.
Just a shame we all can't see how enlightend you are, eh?"
The correct name for the town is Royal Tunbridge Wells!
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"""The original estimate that only 13,000 Poles, Czechs and others would come each year after they joined the European Union was based on projections from what happened when Spain and Greece joined the EU in the 1980s. The study also assumed that every EU country would open their borders to workers from Poland and other new member states. In the event only the UK, Sweden and Ireland were prepared to do that, with the now well-known result.""

""One of the authors of the study, Professor Christian Dustmann, has said that he is ""absolutely sure"" that if Germany had opened its labour market to the Poles and others, the numbers coming to Britain would have been much lower.""

The study ""The impact of EU enlargement on migration flows"", dates to 2003. By 2004 it was entirely clear that all other EU nations except the UK, Sweden and Ireland, would maintain entrance controls but the Labour government still opened the borders 5 years earlier than it needed to. At the same time the Labour government persisted in peddling the 13,000 number while attacking MigrationWatch's much higher number.

The then Home Secretary David Blunkett in an internal email said: ""Can we please stop saying that Migrationwatch forecasts are wrong."" MigrationWatch’s predictions were entirely correct."
"<The then Home Secretary David Blunkett in an internal email said: ""Can we please stop saying that Migrationwatch forecasts are wrong."" MigrationWatch’s predictions were entirely correct.>
And Blunkett has seen even more sense recently: he thinks the fact that many polish immigrants are claiming child benefit for children still in Poland is not something we can afford."
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An interesting experiment would be for 10% of all UK university and Home Office economists ( save those close to retirement ) to voluntarily resign and to have their jobs taken by economists from other eu states. Then, after say two years, a survey could be carried out to see how many remained unemployed in order to test out some of these theories.
There are a million Brits in Spain and probably a lot of them in many other EU countries. Why does it always sound like immigration is a one-way street.
"Hehe. If Spain decided to stop expatriate Brits from buying property, the majority of London cabbies - albeit ageing London cabbies - I've spoken to would be fucked.
Although they're retiring, not working."
"Nope. There are 390,880 Brits in Spain.
Source: The Guardian."
_AT_SValmont - maybe they could start moving to romania and bulgaria?
how many brits in poland?
_AT_lapsang1979 - I've never been to Romania, but Bulgaria is lovely.
"I think you will find most are pensioners. The great problem with us signing up to the Freedom of Movement Directive in 2004 is an astonishing failure to appreciate that for a variety of reasons the outflows of ( job seekers ) would be hugely outweighed by inflows.

Britain's welfare and health systems are also peculiarly open in comparison. This is particularly so with having a health system which is free at the point of delivery to almost anyone who can physically get here. With eurozone peripheral states cutting back and/or introducing charges we are a sitting duck for exploitation. Unless the Government introduces emergency powers our system will be overwhelmed at some stage; alternatively we will have to end the free at point of delivery aspect and come into line with continental practices."
_AT_SValmont - yes but could you actually live there? i mean in the sense that an average pole can move to england and live here ie. not just on holiday
_AT_lapsang1979 - I guess not, you're right.
"Brits generally emigrate for work or to retire. The prime destinations for British emigration have tight entry rules.

There are strict regulations in Spain that prevent immigrants having access to the Welfare State until they have paid income tax for 5 years.

Your comparison is disingenuous at the very least."
How does the fact that there are a few hundred thousand retired wealthy Brits in Spain have any baring on the British in Britain who are living on the breadline? A feeble comparison that only a spoilt bourgeois liberal fool would make.
"Um, maybe because immigration is a one way street?
immigrate (v.) 1620s, from Latin immigratum, pp. of imigrare ""to go into, move in,"" from assimilated form of in- ""into, in, on, upon"" (see in- (2)) + migrare ""to move"""
_AT_SValmont - the fatal flaw in freedom of movement. The countries in Europe are not the same and do not have the same people as much van rumpy and his chums would like them to be.
"The vast majority of British expats living in Spain and other Club Med countries have gone there to retire. They have a bit of money; have bought property and don't claim off the State.
They are also not taking local jobs, but in many cases, are providing them .... 'daily helps,' gardeners, staff to keep the local golf club functioning etc etc.
In contrast, we are getting immigrants who are coming and taking low-skilled starter jobs, which our own school leavers should be taking. They are providing competition in the trades, driving down wages. They are claiming Benefits (Child Benefit, Tax Credits, Job Seekers Allowance) and they are using public services such as the NHS and State Education. They are also asking for, and getting, social housing.
We cannot let this continue. The laws of supply and demand have been warped by over-supply of labour from Eastern Europe and over-supply of welfare/social provision from the UK.
The British people are being squeezed in the middle.
I support UKIP. They are the only party that is prepared to take us out of the EU so we can govern our own country again .... including our immigration policy."
"This is starting to feel like groundhog day...
Has the Guardian now become the official tourist agency for Bulgaria and Romania"
Along with the BBC , yes .
_AT_LtKilgore - http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02220/Park-Lane_2220595b.jpg
"This isn't about migrants claiming benefits. This is about migrants putting downward pressure on the wages of the lowest-paid people in the UK - many of whom, of course, were migrants themselves.
The solution is either to control numbers coming in or to turn the minimum wage into a living minimum wage."
"Under the Freedom of Movement Directive 2004 they are not really ' migrants ' in the usual sense of the word but simply job seekers from another part of the Single Market.

I suspect your latter solution of increasing the minimum wage would make it even more attractive for workers from some other parts of the eu to seek work here especially as some have no minimum level and for others it is below the level here. A minimum wage acts so as to put a platform under wage rates so is particularly enticing if you seeking work on a speculative basis.

I've heard all the arguments about people being employed illegally under the minimum wage but the evidence suggests this fairly small scale and has minimal impact."
"Ahhh, a very selective criteria. But ""in work"" benefits for low wages? Housing benefit? Tax credits? Council tax payments?
Low wage immigration is still a net loss for the UK. With our highly skewed tax system, you need to earn pretty much near average wage (£25k ish) to make any contribution at all."
"_AT_haardvark - If your labour creates value for the economy, then you are making a contribution.
Whether some of it makes its way into the Treasury is a matter for the tax system.
However, you're right. Perhaps it's time to stop subsidising Tesco and the other big employers via tax credits and BTL landlords via housing benefit and introduce a statutory minimum national income and rent controls."
"They may not be claiming out of work benefits, but they ARE claiming Child Benefit and Tax Credits (for as many kids as they like ... there are no serious checks made about children supposedly left behind).
They are also claiming Job Seekers Allowance.
They are also using taxpayer-funded public services - NHS, State Education, Social Housing.
Low paid, unskilled immigrants will NEVER make a contribution in tax that is greater than the costs they impose on the rest of us."
So if we have already 150,000 Romanians and Bulgarians here unable to work. What are they doing ! Are they all multimillionaires? I think we all have seen the effects of the worst of European integration........
"rub the Right's nose in diversity". Blairs quote I recall
Whereas he was in fact betraying the low paid British.
I hope those that come know how to use a spade efficiently. I have had two women ask me recently if I knew anybody who would come and dig their gardens over for a reasonable price.
My sister is running a large company with her family in Spain. My other sister is running a substantial company with her family in France. My daughter is running a business in France. My son-in-law is running another business in France. My wife is from the EU (Scandinavia) and has been a tax-payer in this country for over 40 years - but her training was paid for elsewhere in the EU. I worked on an EU-funded project in this country for about 16 years. If we shut down immigration and leave the EU will all these people have to go back home? Will all the businesses fold? You have to be careful what you wish for.
thats correct yes - the wealthy middle classes will finally have to start paying for some of the selfish policies they have inflicted on the working class.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02220/Park-Lane_2220595b.jpg
It was perfectly possible to travel to and work in Europe in the past, even before Britain joined the COmmon Market and very easy even 20 years ago when the EU was much less integrated. Europe needs to trade with Britain and will always welcome bright and motivated individuals that will make a positive contribution to that country. What has really undermined the concept has been allowing in a lot of East European countries with very different wage and living costs, the EU would have been better of investing more of its development funds there to help the economies develop, rather than making it easy for many to leave their home countries.
_AT_BoxerSays - A mere moment's thought would show you that the "wealthy" middle classes have been the ones paying for everyone else lal the time.
. The UK has widespread poverty and unemployment, the benefit system is easily available, but it isnt generous, probably NHS and schooling take pride of place in the freebee line up. I think it would be safe to assume that anyone coming to the UK without a job to come to, will be entering the unemployed class possibly the black economy and remaining there. By definition, , they will have fanmilies. , but even so, this is much like picking over the rubbish. Our middle and professinal class is emigrating, the ones taking their place are simply turning the UK into a third world country. Pity.
"Given the lack of skills (including skills in their native language) of much of the native population, it's hard to believe that immigrants on average would be less qualified. And English really isn't a difficult language to pick up, at least to the required level; we're not talking about novelists here.


That's a very big ""if"". Neither the NHS nor British state schools provide much to be envied in comparison to, say, the rest of Europe.


How nice. A closet racist hiding out on Cif."
"_AT_boche - If English isnt such a difficult language to pick up then how come we spend ever more year on year on translators ?
Of course you will be including all black ,asian etc in your above views of the native population"
Some of the commentators actually forget that it was by pure accident of birth that they happen to be born in Britain. That automatically makes them British.
But it isn't just "another" human being is it? Its potentially hundreds of thousands of human beings.
"True it's an accident of birth. But those who live in any country, and whose parents and grandparanets also did before them, have been part of the shaping of that culture and society. It's organic.

I feel I've contributed, both by participation in democracy, public service duty, protest, consumer choices, social behaviour and etiquette, and the passing on of core values of politeness, work ethic, and empathy and tolerance to our children.

Surely that's what makes any country what it is, and it gives those who have participated in that moulding of a community over generations some right to have a say in what happens to it next.

I have no objection at all to a diverse, multi racial Britian. In fact that would be great. But I'm massively concerned about an overcrowded, overstretched, under-resourced and culturally divided one. Why is that so wrong?"
"_AT_Psigram - Try Millions. Poles while disadvantaged were not as poor at Romanians and Bulgarians, and 1 Million of them came.
If you are a Romanian feeding a family on €200 a month, would you not join the gold rush to benefit Britain and get £1000 free money and a house thrown in.
It's going to end in tears ( probably blood too)"
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"_AT_Vishanti -
Excellent post.
Sums up what many of who are not racist, not xenophobic, and not completely anti-EU feel.
The issue of open borders in the EU, especially the likely further large influx from E.Europe after the end of this year is a crunch point, marking a limit to the tolerance of the British people."
"Didn't stop the rest of eastern Europe heading here did it!
Do we really need another influx of immigrants?
Remember Blair "" we will welcomethese people with their skill....................""
I think he told the UK public that there would be around 25000 a year, I think he missed a 0 off but then the guy who lied over WMD would, don't trust any politician when it comes to fulfilling the great German dream of a united Europe of should that be Prussia."
If the countryside is built over, the likes of Philip Holobone, Eric Pickles, Lord Soames and all the other toxic Tories could find themselves built out of their comfy shires! Some good could come of this yet......
"What you essentially fogetting is that Britain is the location of choice for people in many countries outside the EU (Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Russia etc) because it is common knowledge in these countries that Britain is the easist country to gain quick access to social welfare and to work illegally. The Romanians are not going to be going to elsewhere in Europe, because in those other countries the masses are not so distracted by the Elites to allow simple common sense to be buried.

Put simply we have already too many unemployed or underemployed people. We do not need 1 more source of cheap labour to increase the profits of some conglomerate. The Left promotes cheap labour because it is in the pockets of big business and hates the British working class.

The 'tories' are Blairites anyway so the fact they will do nothing about this only further makes the case for UKIP"
Yes, UKIP......the other scourge of the Tories.....tearing them apart in time for the next election, when they will split the Conservative vote and result in further defections from their party...........I do not support them, I just marvel at how useful they will be in getting this shameful government out of power!
Guardian most have guessed the game...
"Letter from Glen Watson, Director General for ONS [Lords Hansard 22 October 2012].
As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question: how many Romanians have registered for United Kingdom national insurance numbers in total and in each year since that country's accession to the European Union in 2007; how many people were counted as net immigrants from Romania in the International Passenger Survey, in total, and in each year since 2007; and what was the overall rise in Romanian nationals in the United Kingdom from 2007 to date according to the Annual Population Survey. (HL2416).
In response to the first question, the number of Romanians who have registered for UK national insurance numbers can be seen in Table 1 below
Table 1: NINo Registrations to Romanian Nationals entering the UK.. Romania
Total 111,790
In response to the second question, table 2 below shows the estimated net migration of Romanian citizens (in thousands) into the UK from 2007 to 2010 These are the latest estimates available and are based on the International Passenger Survey.
Table 2-Migration of Romanian citizens into/out of the UK, 2007-10
Immigration Emigration Net Migration
Total 27,000 4,000 23,000
[These are the figures the government uses for its net migration target!]
In response to the third question, the estimated increase in Romanian nationals resident in the UK from 2007 to date (2011), from the Annual Population Survey, is 74,000.
The figures the government uses for its immigration target in respect of Romanians are therefore between three and five times out.
Welcome to the real world."
Xenophobic! Racist!
"Just what the UK needs another wave of dirt poor Eastern Europeans flooding our country. Undercutting wages and conditions to take jobs from Britons, being a burden on welfare and the NHS.
You left wingers just don't get it do you...... Do you think your kids will ever get a job or a house of their own.... No hope!"
Sordse........................calm down, stop frothing at the mouth and kindly direct your little Englander comments at the Daily Mail where they belong.
"Funny The Daily Mail is a Middle Class paper, yet it is the Working class who have been wrecked by mass immigration. I guess you aren't a construction worker, tradesman, lorry driver, cleaner, security guard who now can't get work because it is cheaper to employ a Pole.
Ironically I look forward to Poles rioting when employers tell them Romanians will do the job cheaper"
"Most of the Poles who came to Britain have returned to Poland, most of them and the other migrant workers did work, mainly doing jobs that Brits turned their noses up at. No doubt the Romanians who come here will do the same.
Or is it a UKIP article of faith that all migration from the EU is bad per se."
"Tell asll the builders and other trades men that found themselves undercut by cheaper , thanks to a number of reasons , rates that 'most of them and the other migrant workers did work, mainly doing jobs that Brits turned their noses '
In reality its was a lower wage than companies had to offer UK workers that mad them 'attractive '"
"Most of the Poles who came to Britain have returned to Poland

Perhaps in some cases this may be true, but those returning are just being replaced by other, freshly arrived Poles.
There are some jobs in Britain that will probably never be filled by a British native again and will permanently remain borderline minimum wage jobs simply because of the (currently) endless supply of migrant labour from the A8 and A2 countries, and beyond, ready to fill these positions."
"_AT_MonstrousCarbuncle - As Poland and the other accession countries get wealthier (which they are), there will be fewer citizens of those countries coming to the UK. From a Slovak point of view, the UK is no longer the draw it once was (when £1 got you 70 Slovak Crowns and now only gets you the equivalent of 35 Slovak Crowns).
However, this is a long process, and in the meantime the low-paid already in the UK are falling further and further behind. When migrants were coming in the 1960s, unemployment was very low and living standards for the working class quite high. This is no longer the case.
I suspect that once the likes of Poland catches up, cheaper labour will be found farther East."
"If most of the Poles have already returned home as you claim, then why do the official census results from last year state that there are almost 600,000 living in the country !!! Bear in my mind that census results are by no means accurate and there have been numerous estimates floating around in the past few years that put their actual numbers closer to 1 million and possibly even more.
Most of the Poles who have come have definitely stayed, are now quite well settled with no intentions of returning home and many have started having families as well. I think Polish women are the most common nationality for births to foreign mothers, or at least one of the highest. Those Poles that have left have either been replaced by others arriving for the first time or have simply returned themselves after realizing that a life back in Poland was ultimately not for them."
in cornwall, the bulk of the flower and vegetable picking is now carried out by lithuanians, it used to be locals and lincolnshire folk who used to follow the crops around the country, some of the more experienced pickers could earn good money, but a much better system for the large growers is to employ foreign labour on minimum wage, charge rent for shitty caravans and in some cases issue tokens for use in the company store, nice to see the guardian supporting the exploiters!
In which case ,do not blame the East Europeans, they are just trying to earn a crust. Blame the landowners, most of home will be grasping, exploiting Tories.....any of these people being exploited on the Duchy of Cornwall estates by any chance?
_AT_FatherElephant - What I am saying is that nobody should be exploited by landowners making huge profits at the expense of migrants or native workers....the landed classes still have the upper hand whoever they choose to employ......and again, I would like to know whether these "shitty caravans" are located on land owned by the Duke of Cornwall.
"_AT_homersodyssey - Nobody does blame the immigrants - they're just using the system to their advantage.
That doesn't mean we should accept the system as it is.
Even though they may be working for very low wages (by our standards), that money goes a hell of a lot further in their original countries. As well as driving down wages and eating up the available work, their presence puts pressures on housing availability, and therefore drives up costs, puts pressure on schooling, health, infrastructure and all public and social services.
Then, the money they earn is sent out of the country and they can claim back taxes paid here when they leave!
We cannot support everyone, everywhere!"
The Grapes of Wrath.
Sordse, an interesting editorial in the Independent if you are interested..balanced, measured comments backed up with evidence.
"I think the UK should be more worried with the influx of muslims. Romanians don't have seven children (except for the gypsies) so they won't outbreed the British like muslims are doing right now.

All you brits should be careful how you handle this. I've seen quite a few of your countrymen buy farm land in Romania without restrictions. I'd love to kick all British landowners in Romania out!!!

I heard your dear Prince Charles likes visiting Transylvania often.. We'll have to restrict that in the future."
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"The original EU was composed of countries which did not have huge differences in wage structures, health and education and welfare systems.
With the entry of Eastern European countries a new situation has arisen and the problems will be greatly exacerbated after Dec. 2013 when Romanians and Bulgarians gain unrestricted rights to live and work here and have entitlement to many benefits.
These are countries with very different wage structures, health and benefits systems to our own.
I've been in Romania and have some knowledge of the place so I'll give you a scenario:
a family with a very low income might correctly calculate that they would be better off in the UK after Dec 2013 even though there were few jobs available. Especially if there were children the UK would have to provide accommodation, education, health and welfare benefits.
(Even David Blunkett is amazed that child benefit is being paid to Polish immigrants whose children are still in Poland!!!)
What if tens of thousands of people like that choose to come here in a short space of time? This country is already overcrowded and has severe housing problems.
Is this far from unlikely scenario not something the government should be taking VERY SERIOUSLY? UKIP and the anti-EU press would have a field day.
By the way the UK movement to other EU countries is well spread out and consists mainly of retired people and people with jobs who neither expect nor get much in the way of welfare.
The issue with unrestricted access for Eastern Europians is the main reason for Euroscepticism from people like myself. Up to now I thought the many good arguments for staying in outweighed the arguments for exiting the EU.
Now I'm not so sure.
I sense that for the majority of British people, most of whom are by no means xenophobic or totally against immigration as such, this EU open doors policy is the crunch point, the limit to their tolerance."
"Remember Folks in Guardian Land there are:
1) No jobs for the unemployed.
and
2) A vast shortage of people to fill desperately needed vacancies that can only be met through immigration.
EPIC LOGIC FAIL."
Great, great post.
"There is 20% youth unemployment in this country
Couldn't they pick the strawberries for Wimbledon instead thus year?
I just can't see the logic of allowing in unskilled labour from wherever eu/ non eu when there are huge numbers of unemployed people here already
They are teaching young unemployed British to cook and work in the curry houses since restricting the immigration of Chefs from the Asian subcontinent
We only export 8.5% of our produce to the eu , according to the today programme , so call their bluff , join Europe like Norway and Switzerland as free trading nations and repatriate the rest of the powers back to the UK"
Regardless of the debate about an increasing or decreasing number of Romanians and Bulgarians the time has arrived when the UK must say 'no more'. What is the point of finding out in 2015 that some of us underestimated the number of new arrivals when the nation has too many people already with the NHS and benefits system breaking down as a result of the demands put upon them. We can ignore the EU, as France did with their treatment of the Romanies, and also certain sectors of our own Society who are only interested in 'cheap labour'. As many other readers have pointed out how come we have some many unemployed when the farmers claim they need to workers to bring in the fruit.
"This article provides much more accurate information on the issue concerning the possible number of Romanians and Bulgarians in the UK.

Maybe there is just one more fact to be considered - it is true that Spain has introduced some restrictions for Romanian workers in the UK last year, but there aren't any restrictions for Bulgarians - the Spannish labour market is entirely free for Bulgarians."
"Sorry, I made an error in the previous comment, the correct text is:

This article provides much more accurate information on the issue concerning the possible number of Romanians and Bulgarians in the UK.

Maybe there is just one more fact to be considered - it is true that Spain has introduced some restrictions for Romanian workers last year, but there aren't any restrictions for Bulgarians - the Spannish labour market is entirely free for Bulgarians."
"In my personal experience, Eastern European workers tend to be cheap, hard working, enthusiastic, reliable and skilled. It's no wonder they are competing strongly with the locals for available jobs.
If we are to reduce the number of young unemployed in this country, we need to limit immigration, and improve the quality of our own labour force. Letting thousands of Bulgarians and Romanians in is not going to improve the employment prospects of our own people, as any fool can see."
"In the case of Poland a worker can earn 4x as much in the UK.
If you offer a British person 4x minimum wage instead of some barely distinguishable from laying in bed on benefits then you might find they too are ""hard working, enthusiastic, reliable and skilled"" also."
_AT_haardvark - I don't know - laying in bed on benefits has its attractions (or did you mean lying in bed?)
"'Well, this time it will be different'
I wonder will the author be willing to stand-bye those words if its not ?
'The Romanians and Bulgarians who come next year are not expected to help out with the British strawberry crop. It is thought they will head for better-paid and higher-skilled jobs in London and other cities when they will be able to take a permanent job as well as living in Britain.'
Why , what sklls do these Romanians and Bulgarians have that are not already seen in any other country that can already access the UK job market ? It might I actual help if they do some reaserch and said where the skills shortages are ."
"+1. What are these mythical jobs of which we are lacking skills so I can recommend some of my friends train for them?
And what special qualities do Romania and Bulgaria possess that make them uniquely qualified to fill them?
Sorry for my cynicism but I'"
Hei guys I think you should stop worrying about migrating to UK. I am Bulgarian and I have worked as a seasonal worker back in 2006 and 2007. Now I am in Bulgaria and have no desire to move to the UK. I am qualified and I speak 4 languages and if I am to move somewhere it won’t be UK. I can say the same for many of my country mates. Even for students it is better to work here during the summer holiday than going to UK as work slaves. Here you can earn almost the same amount of money in the field of tourism as if you are a strawberry picker in UK. And we are about 7 million people. So don’t worry not many will come. You should be worried about Romanians they are many……………
"You might not like Migrationwatch but David Blunkett did. He famously used the website for estimations of immigration figures as he noted that they were fairly accurate whereas the Labour figures were utter dogshit.
Bloody racists and their accurate estimates eh?"
"Dear working people of Britain. Time to be honest. There are bigger forces at work here and you don't actually matter. Global businesses and EU empires don't build themselves any other way you understand. And it's just too damned complicated to revisit international treaties we stumbled into of which we were blindly either oblivious or willfully ignorant of the the consequences. Actually, no we don't care.
We will lie, cheat and run endless puff-pieces by either vested interests or the dim-witted but well meaning and easily exploitable.
Expect more of the same until working conditions become so unattractive in the UK people would rather stay home. You will not get any say on immigration into your country ever. So go home and vote Labour, Tory or LidDem or more or less whoever it doesn't really matter."
"Hi, guys. Hi from Bulgaria. I'm a well educated IT expert an have been working in industry since 15 years. Few years I was invited in different projects around Europe (Belgium, Netherlands, UK and Germany) as a consultant. Personally me I never intended to work and live in a foreign country.
Why I’m writing this post here?
First of all as a valuable Bulgarian I feel little bit offended by that a EU political party use another EU nation(s) (Bulgarians, Romanians ) to seed fear in UK people and win votes.  So it was potentially possible in those times a Bulgarian political party to use that situation to bring more votes. Thanks to god no one used it.
Also I just wanted to revile some facts which happening here in Bulgaria. Hope they make you calm down and not to let yourselves be panic and frustrated. Currently a lot of Spanish and Greeks come to work in Bulgaria. I have seen that facts in Software industry and in Building industry. The guys told they are better paid here. If so why should Bulgarians move abroad?
Of course as poorest country in EU a lot of Bulgarian business wants to have really good experts to survive, because they have to guarantee the quality of their products and export them in EU. So there are a lot of low qualified people who could not find a job.
Also there is a problem in finding work in banking sector and in some services sectors. In those sectors even well qualified and experienced experts are out of job.
So what kind of migrant you might be potentially expecting?
Low qualified workers – good in the fields and well qualified in service sectors also young just graduated students. The jobless people in Bulgaria by official data for 2012 are 409 500. I don’t believe all of the will go abroad, I don’t believe that all of them will stay one year out of job, I don’t believe that even all they go abroad they will go to UK.
I want to notice that my opinion is based on personal observations and I’m not an expert in statistics.
Regards"
Rich people are causing the same problems here with property prices but as well as that people are worried about wages also dropping to economic migrants which will also cause higher jobless figures and a strain on services like schools and hospitals among other things.
"Will you media types and politicians STOP LIEING to us.
Your contempt for us plebs will bring violence to the streets. My son has studied socialism, and he says that is exactly what you want, violence. So that you can tear down society and rebuild a new ""utopia"".
Well you may get the revolution, but you wont get Utopia, just a lot of casualties.
Ban all immigration, and stop Lieing to us for all our sakes"
Can you START to spell the word correctly please "lying"
_AT_Lordprotector666 - Can you actually engage with the issue? And why capitalise 'start'? This isn't a spelling lesson.
Has "the numbers of east european immigrants might fall" replaced "and pigs might fly" as a hyperbolic term for an extremely unlikely event?
"lownoise
Does not worry we have the socialists party in Bulgaria also. They all are the same. But believe me the west EU countries live in better socialism than east EU countries. So things got different since the wind of change. In our days west EU countries might be considered as Socialist republics and east EU countries are Rude Capitalism where when you are employed you pay social insurances and when you get out of job you get social benefits so low that you could not even pay your life expenses. They say that is because the country is poor. So if you do not work you die."
"Hi bgfellow
Thank you for your comments. To help you understand our concerns, you should understand that we live on an island with a population of 60,000 people.
Once our population reaches 70 Million we will no longer be able to feed, house, educate or provide medical facilities for our people.
13, Million Poles left Poland and came to the UK recently, plus 2 Million Czechs and 500,000 or so Hungarians came to live hear. Most good hard working people. Roumanians are here in there hundreds of Thousands, sadly they have a reputation for street gangs and begging.
Add to this, the millions who have come and want to come from India Africa and Pakistan amd you can see pretty soon all hell will break loose unless our politicians bring this mess to a complete stop.
In my country if you express concern on this issue Socialist and the Media bully you into silence by branding you racist.
The other casualty of this mass migration madness is free speech. It is being curtailed"
"_AT_lownoise - I’m totally agreed with you, but what I wanted to say was that we Bulgarians are 6 million people left into Bulgaria. That number includes the immigrants from other countries also the groups called minority ethnical groups like Muslims, Roma(gipsy). At the end of the communism Bulgaria population was 8 million. Those 2 million people – some of them immigrated some of them died.
Currently the BG demographics is said to contain old people.
So what I was trying to say was that potential risk could not be bigger that 6 millions. But I will not immigrate so 6 million minus 4, which is the people number in my family.
Also I do not believe all old ladies and gentlemen to go abroad. So we Bulgarians are not a real threat for you – we are les than London population.
Regarding the Socialist – totally agreed with you. The same situation is here if you catch or say thieves are from minority ethnical groups. If you say so you are claimed to be racist."
"_AT_bgfellow -
Thank you again BG.
I wish you well"
,   Instead we are given this pretty picture of harmless fruit pickers which was indeed the case when we had our own border controls and these people would be expected to return.  and so will the attempt to take advantage of our weakness unlike that of the Germans who seem to apply their own rules and tell their immigrants where to go, while we have always obeyed the rules, yet another reason why we don't fit into Europe. It will be interesting to have a head count of the numbers that maintain a presence and compare that to the 180,000 that have already slipped into this country and added themselves to the benefit bill of £3.5 Billion and rising. Still one can't expect a lot of left love(ys) to consider matters like this when it comes to a little bit of extra money.
"We don't (if you are talking of sovereign debt). Definitely not as a fraction of GDP, and probably not in absolute terms either (which is irrelevant in any case).

It isn't. It is related to a ridiculous increase in private borrowing fuelled by an addiction to gambling on houses and a ridiculous banking sector willing to fund this gambling.

They are very few. Most immigrants come here to work. The demographic is mostly young, working age. I suspect that most of them are not eligible for most benefits, and it can't be beyond the wit of Parliament to fix any real abuses, given how effective they are at dealing with even imagined ones.

Has it? Do you have any evidence or do you just know it in your bones?"
_AT_mintaka - Blatant self denial of something which everybody else thinks except the deluded left wing. What a crazy and stupid policy of driving up public spending which increased by 60% under Labour and added another £3000 to the average hard working persons tax. A huge rise which has done nothing for the economy where manufacturing decreased by another 12.5% and their only legacy was introducing as many costs to industry thereby exacerbating competition in a challenging world. These people are as daft as Cuckoos which I sometimes think is the result of the monomaniacal mentality.
"""the numbers of Bulgarians and Romanians in Britain could actually fall over the next few years


Aye, Right!"
Sorry bgfellow my post should have said our population is 60 MILLION
"If native born British people think that a career as a strawberry picker is beneath them, then they are probably correct. I wouldn't want to do it. Would you?
Picking strawberries and other low wage farm work doesn't belong in the UK anymore than factories churning out flip flops and plastic flowers beong here.
We need this land for new housing - instead of importing cheap unskilled labour (cheap but at a high cost - they still need housing, schools services) to serve an industry that we should be trying to exit.
This business model is madness."
"I cant believe you could right such a pompous and silly post. eating strawberries is not ""beneath"" you, just picking them.
You belong in the ancient Roman empire"
Most farm work is hard and tedious, and a lot relies on seasonal labour. It used to manage quite well, with students and others looking for some extra income during harvests. Of course we need to produce food in this country, but perhaps wages have become too low while it has become a lot easier for agrobusiness to rely on cheap immigrant labour. If the Romanians who currently pick these crops never came back, I am sure the fruit would not rot in the fields, but industry would need to find some of the existing population to do it, maybe raising wages in the process. Odd that the Guardian simply cannot see how this would benefit the UK, but in its obsessive pro cheap immigrant labour articles is actually siding firmly with big business.
_AT_dave0303 - strawberries used to be a seasonal treat and a short season at that and not that cheap but very delicious--- now its a supermarket led demand for almost all year round cheap tasteless treat that is pushing this exploitation of ever cheaper labour which is seeing gangmasters truck shops tied rubbish accommodationetc something my farm labourer grandparents were glad to see the back of and guess what these cheap treats are costing us an awful lot more than we could imagine, and we are paying we the customer the farmer the exploited and not the likes of Tesco
"You maybe right, but as you said, that was the party line last time and it wasn't true. Then anybody who had any complaints or worries about migration were shouted down, and sometimes even called racist. While papers like this one said that the idea that migration drove down wages and made finding a job harder was non-sense.
Well I'm afraid this paper was shown to be wrong. Hell, the Bank of England praised immigration as holding down wage inflation years ago. Ordinary people weren't suppose to understand that of course. We now have a situation in which employment agencies hiring for this country won't look at English workers. Very easy to unconcerned by this if you're a Guardian writer. For you lot, immigration means a cheaper cleaner, nanny, and more types of food to buy. For those on minimum wage, it means it is harder to find work, and their employer can drive down their wages and conditions.

So now we get the standard line about British workers being lazy and unwilling to work. Let me take you to a place that Guardian writers and most other wealthy people in London never visit. It is the world most of this country lives in.
Now a poorly paid agricultural job for a few months is attractive when you can return to a country were the cost of living is far lower and your pay is worth more. Not so great for the average unemployed Brit.
To take such work, an unemployed Brit would have to sign off, loosing their income. Then they would also loose their housing benefit, and have to move out of their home and for what? A job that lasts a few months and is so poorly paid that after the expense of getting there and accomadation expenses, they would barely make any money.
The problem here is not lazy British workers, but greedy employers and the like of supermarkets. Maybe we might have to start paying a little bit more in the shops, and the rich pay a bit for their nannys, instead of exploiting cheap immigrant labour."
"I'm left wing, and quite hotheaded, but I have to agree with this entirely. Sadly debate is often polarised into Tory and Lefty. The average working man and woman is often demoninsed by both sides in this debate.
The truth is, big business and profit determine the labour market and how it hires, not the immigrants themselves and not the unemployed trying to get work. Sadly both groups get it in the neck.
Until we have a media and a press that is completely free and unbiased, (which is a pipe dream) most people will fail to recognise that the profit motive trumps all else and we are all fucked over as a result. I get angry at the Guardian because it's writers tend to support their own lifestyles by defending the indefensible just as the Tories do for the sake of business.
The ordinary working man and woman dont have a voice and are often led by a press that lies, obfuscates and panders to prejudice. The left meanwhile have a press that is too afraid to upset their comfortable apple cart too much in case the system does break down and they lose their own rather comfy position in society."
_AT_ratherbehappy - It's a pity your Left-wing because you come across as quite likeable. Perhaps where we can agree is that on any issue (and immigration in particular) there has to be free reporting by the media without the now defunct and obselete cry of 'wacism' (sic).
I'm glad I don't live in Londonistan.
As a Londoner, I'm glad you don't live here either.
The issue of mass immigration and the left, as typified by the constant stream of articles in the Guardian and the drivel and evasion by Milliband on the Radio yesterday is truly amazing. This huge blind spot, where against all evidence and common sense, they refuse to acknowledge the impact that huge numbers of unskilled or lowly skilled workers has on an economy and the existing population and workers. Ed talks of the living wage yet will not join the dots to massive influx of cheap labour and what that has done to wages. It is basic economics and great news for big business, which is why the CBI and others are so nervous about this debate. Labour complain about the 1% rise in benefits, yet the overall bill has gone up enormously as many low wage migrants are claiming in work benefits. Is it just colonial guilt, hatred of the working classes? Can someone explain it?
"Dave it is a mixture of Colonial Guilt and hatred, not of the working class bit of British people in total. How our ruling classes and media came to this position is beyond me, but there does seem to be a connection with the ultra left University system.
Have you watched any of the ""who do you think you are"" ?
One of the striking features, of many of the left leaning so called celebrities, was their desire to be anything other than English by lineage, as if being English was some sort of disgrace, whereas in fact it is one of the greatest privilges on earth."
_AT_lownoise - Spot on, another clear example of BBC mind-bending, the duff argument clearly being that because some celebrities have a mixture in ancestry all immigration is legitimate. Strangely, the BBC wasn't interested in doing Michael Pakinson, English farm-labourers on his father's side, English domestics on his mother's side (not enough diversity obviously).
"wow. quite a thread.
somehow the daily mail seems to be channelling its biggest blowhards this way.
For whom a reality sandwich: when is the last time any of you big bloated brits did sweated labour?
Never, right?
Well here's the crux: if you didn't import highly-motivated low-wage workers who are willing to be treated like slaves --and who are indeed treated like dirt -- then much of your agriculture, nursing care work and many other lowly and poorly-paid tasks SIMPLY WOULDN'T GET DONE"
We dont need Americans, such as you making snide remarks thank you. You Have enough of your own problems, sort them out first
monstrous, do you really believe this. What do you think happened before EU enlargement, were care homes unstaffed or vegetables and fruit unpicked. I despise the Daily Mail, yet you denigrate the working classes just like some of their leader writers. The problem is that cheap foreign labour has depressed wages and reduced job security, so that it is true that in some cases people are not interested in these jobs. The UK is not alone in this phenomenon. The question is what we do about it, and basically doing nothing or even making it worse with another wave of cheap labour at a time of recession and austerity can only make it worse. I think your post nearly answers my question as to why some on the left simply dont care.
"_AT_dave0303 -

Not true.
As this Resolution Foundation report makes clear:
http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/media/downloads/Gaining_from_growth_-_The_final_report_of_the_Commission_on_Living_Standards.pdf"
Yes, the Daily Mail really is channelling its biggest blowhards this way.
"_AT_themurf - I read the findings of another report in the Guardian that said that for every 0.1pc increase in population due to migration, the lowest-paid 5pc lost 0.6pc in income.
That's a lot when you think of the compound effect, the annual rise in the cost of living and that the lowest-paid 5pc are struggling to meet the costs of their essential anyway."
_AT_BeatonTheDonis - How pathetic, to instantly tar anyone with the slightest dissenting voice in a debate about mass migration as a Daily Mail reader.
_AT_HexagonSon - Read the entire nest of comments before making yourself look silly.
"Oi, this Brit (Scot Brit actually), cant afford to get bloated, has the hands of a navvy and have worked at every job you can think of and probably some you wouldnt want in a nightmare.
And I simply dont recognise the charicature you've presented. Never met anyone like that in my life. The only bloated lazy bastards I HAVE met were certainly not working class. Fuckin think before you print."
"_AT_dave0303 -
Who employs migrant labour, pays them less than their English equivalents? Would it be the business neighbours of the people who own media such as the Daily Mail?"
"Sorry, but even as a socialist (with a small 's') I can see this is The Guardian simply doing a bit of fire fighting against the assumed outrage of the right at the predicted flood of migrants.
Let's have some honesty injected in to the debate about immigration shall we? Borders between EU member states being opened inevitably means imbalances in movements of nationals between those countries, I don't see any more than a few hundred Brits leaving the UK to live the good life in Romania, do you?
I'm sure there'll be many hard working, educated Romanians arriving, but there will also be Roma and Sinti, for whom thieving and crime, people smuggling, and child slavery are a deeply ingrained cultural trait. But let's just ignore that shall we? because as socialists we are required to ignore the deeply flawed cultural traits of our fellow man and say 'come one come all', even if you are determined to steal the copper from our railway sidings or pick my pockets, or sell your 11 year old daughters for a couple of hundred euros."
"In estimating immigration numbers from Romania and Bulgaria after 2013, you are making the fundamental mistake to ignore the culture, history and the post-communist evolution of potential migrants' motivations and aspirations.
Apparently, the majority of Brits think that eastern Europeans' approach to emigration is as enthusiastic and lighthearted as a Brit would take up relocation for a better job in US or Australia. This may have been their naive view in the post-revolution excitement, meanwhile for 20 years emigrants came back and told stories of alienation, isolation, humiliation, loss of the essential framework of family and friends, guilt at abandoning their weakest family members to the merciless economy of transition, very hard work for less pay than local peers, misrepresentation and even demonization in the papers, and worse living conditions than back home - all necessary to fulfill migrant's basic objective: to save for a house back in the country. 
Their stories went to reinforce the historical, strong cultural bias against ""leaving the motherland"": pain and doom are implicit in the language of emigration itself,  and are explicitly portraying the experience as half death in the fairy tales children grow up with. All a universe away from the positive, self-actualizing, self-entitled connotations you ascribe to your own experiences of emigrating to work hard in other lands with reluctant hosts.
You Brits must really talk to these people and understand how their motivations changed with the pro-west enthusiasm dying down over the last 20 years before  barricading in your island. You're making immigration projections like you would forecast milk production growth - unlike cows, you can actually talk to the concerned people and ask if they will even bother.
Has CIF ever publish a piece by an immigrant of the kind you fear? And I don't mean folksy, self-mocking articles about the lyrical inclinations of Polish plumbers."
"England has over 400 people per square kilometre - that's less than one 50x50m square per head. One of the highest population densities of a country or major region in the world - higher than Japan or India.
For me (a former resident of England and a non-white person who doesn't give a shit about ethnicity), that is the only thing that really matters here. Are you people in England happy with that number, and do you want it to continue increasing?
Not sure what that State can do about it or even what powers it should have, but I would have no problem with a ""one in one out"" policy."
Poverty gravitates towards prosperity, where it is the easiest to achieve, be it through work or handouts. No brainer here, really.
As long as people come who pass a health screening, have no criminal records and have some English language skills they should be an asset. I am not keen on Africans and Asians who come with no language skills, health problems and no ability to determine their criminality. These people can only be coming to the UK to live on welfare. With European immigrants and high levels of UK unemployed, these third world immigrants have virtually no chance of finding meaningful work and their sole aspiration is to live on benefits and use the NHS and free schools. Dont blame them, but the countries that they come from should stop corruption. I do believe that beggar cuntries such as India should be given no more foreign aid until they stop emigration.
Which is the biggest problem for the UK economy, immigrants or British tax avoiders and evaders?
Both of course
Nothing will change until the ' immigrants' start taking the jobs and moving in on the Guardinistas, them the squealing will start
"I’m Bulgarian and I’m truly appalled by some of the opinions, expressed here and spread through the English media in the last few months. As your public figures prompt media hysteria over the supposed immigration of hundreds of thousands (or even 29 million – do you know exactly how many people live here?) of Bulgarians and Romanians to the United Kingdom, starting next year, our government takes steps to make easier for the English citizens, who retire to Bulgaria, to buy houses in my country. What really strikes me is the great lack of respect towards the Bulgarian state and people in your comments.
Some of you clearly assume that Bulgaria doesn’t have a place in the EU and we don’t have the fundamental and really personal right to move and live freely within the EU. Historically speaking, that’s not something new – your country, as part of the “great powers” of Europe, greatly contributed for the territorial splitting of Bulgaria at the end of the 19th century and with difficulties swallowed its independency. It seems to me in the 21st century this attitude still persists.
I’ve always admired the English art – literature and music – and been interested in your culture. Now I see this culture is not refinement of the society.
Rest assured, I’ll never move to your country."
UKIP has every right to raise this as an issue. There are more than two million people unemployed in this country. There is a housing shortage. Energy security is already a major factor so a rising population makes no sense. We do not need more immigration. The problem is that Labour is happy to keep people on benefits and an unhealty lifestyle (shorter life) because the vote is in the bank. More immigration, more long-term votes.
Hey, Romanians and Bulgarians. Welcome to the E.U. Now you can pick their fruits. Not send satellites to space, or make new technologies like in the soviet times. There you go. Modern day slaves.
Rajnaara, Muslims in the UK don't just FEEL they are being target by the racist anti-Muslim regime of War Criminals (and the people who re-elected them) - they ARE being targeted.
"Only the non democratic, unelected, supposedly representative MCB, and madmen like HIzb ut Tahir have criticised David Camerons ideas about integration.
If you want to tell us what muslims think, then find a true representative sample and ask them. You can't just assume that they'll agree with you, because they're muslims. I suspect that religion isn't the most important thing in the lives of many people who you, the MCB and the government classify as muslim."
"""Britain 's 2.5% Asians are thought to contribute approximately 10% of the country's GDP - �100 billion or so""
And the Muslim contingent in that 2.5% of Asians contribute...?"
Strangely enough, Rajnaara, not many people are concerned about Polish terrorists right now...
"""If we are talking about creating a more inclusive Muslim community, one is forced to ask where the equivalent demands are for Britain's Jewish, Sikh and Hindu communities?""
As far as I am aware, members of these communities are not blowing up underground trains, or plotting to bomb airliners, or to kidnap & murder British soldiers of their own religion in their own country. Indeed I imagine many of them are more concerned with ""generating approximately 10% of the country's GDP - �100 billion or so"" and good luck to them.
Impartial observers might acknowledge that distinction to be relevant as to which community to focus on right now.
Hope this helps."
And where Sharia conflicts with the secular law you're happy to abide by the secular law?
"""Britain 's 2.5% Asians are thought to contribute approximately 10% of the country's GDP - �100 billion or so""
So British Asians have a GDP per head, 4 times non-asians? Please reference this statement and then explain why you use chose to use ""Asian"" and ""muslims"" as synonyms."
"""alienating many Muslims who feel they have been singled out"".
I bet those muslim squaddies who are under armed guard because (as it is alleged) someone planned to torture them and cut their heads off feel ""singled out""."
"[organisations such as the Muslim Council of Britain who have worked tirelessly to bridge the gap between the Muslim community and Britain's mainstream.]
LOL!
Why exactly should there be a ""gap"" between the ""Muslim community"" and the ""mainstream"" anyway?
Are you telling us that Muslims aren't like the rest of us? Have a different agenda? Don't like the British way of life? Prefer their own rules?
The gap exists because of extremist influence. The MCB has done absolutely nothing about that, and doesn't even acknowledge it exists.
Those Muslims who can't agree to live by the most fundamental British values, and don't like British life, need to find an alternative country where they can be happy."
"During the early years of the troubles in Northern Ireland our hearts and minds campaign, naturally, focussed upon the Lithuanian population in Lowestoft.
Certainly, the actions of the security services in much of Suffolk, at the time, could be called seriously into question with many false arrests based upon faulty intelligence information. Not every Lithuanian was part of the terrorist's civilian support structure but, conceivably, some of the community might just vaguely support the terrorist's objectives.
When a voxpop of the local community was undertaken, many friends and relatives strenuously denied that he had previously shown a desire to chop his next door neighbour's head off."
"Warewolf- exactly. I don't think the average Asian has four times the income of everyone else- particularly since many ASians (especially from muslim Pakistan and Bangladesh) have a lower educational achievement and higher unemployment than the average.
As for Sharia law- who will this apply to? All muslims? Or only those who want it? Can one opt out and go for the secular system? How will it be enforced? Is it voluntary? Frankly, if someone wants to live by the precepts of Sharia Law the they are free to do so. However, they should not be able to enforce it over those who do not want it and the civil law should always trump Sharia law. This makes it into a personal ethical code- which is how I like it.
(I don't approve of *any* religion having separate legal codes)"
"I spend a fair amount of time digging around the ONS website in my day job. I've had a quick spin around the (extremely comprehensive) sources of information on UK GDP and as yet have been unable to find any hard data on the 'Asian contribution'. Incidentally UK GDP in 2005 was �1,224bn so, adding in c.3% in growth in 2006, 10% of the total would now be closer to �125bn.
Rajnaara, I'd be very interested to know the source for your data. Cute niqab, btw."
Great response. A tip for those who want to see the next episode read the latter part of the RAND report!
"""Sharia is nothing to be afraid of ""
So, does sharia require the stoning to death of adulterers? Yes or no?"
"both sides of this 'debate' are completely disinterested in the ""real"" issue.
those who bandy about unverifiable frightening stats do so because it is handy to hype up damaging levels of mistrust. Either because they can blame political opponents, or rally support.
remember - the stats this week have no methodology - and with no register of every muslim, there is no way to formulate a fair sample of any size - do they just phone anyone in the book called Ali and ask them?
And those who rant about politicians and police discussing the integration of muslim do so because it suits their personal views not to promote integration, and to vilify those they see as opponents.
---
in truth - multiculturalism has worked wonders in the UK - Jews, Hindus, Oriental people, and Sikhs perform very well in schools and in the labour market. They engage in little subversion of politics - little violence - and little crime.
Black people and muslims have not been so succesful.
So perhaps instead of wasting time attacking multiculturalism - or defending muslims from such attacks - we would all do better to try to find out why muslims and black people are not thriving in a succesful multicultural country.
we should ask why so many are unemployed or behind bars. This is not their fault as groups or individuals - but there must be a cause - social, ideological, historical.
and if we do find out why - maybe we can fix it."
"The definition of Asians used includes Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, other South Asians, British Asians, Mixed White and Asian, Chinese, Japanese, other East Asians, Turkish, Kurdish, other West Asians and other Middle Eastern.
And the figure was 4% of the population, not 2.5%. You must be confusing Muslims with these ""Asians"" - which includes Japanese-owned companies the 3rd of 4th largest economy in the world.
The report pointed out that the wealthiest group were Hindus and the poorest Bangladeshis � does this mean there is going to be a mass-conversion to Hinduism to rescue Pakistanis and Bangladeshis from poverty? They currently have very low levels of education and economic activity and could presumably learn a lot from Hindu values.
Qaradawi is an extremist, as is anyone who promotes sharia law. Sharia is based on unequal treatment between men and women and between Muslims and non-Muslims. That's why the European Court of Human Rights came down so heavily against it.
Any organisation promoting sharia should be denied public funding and it's office bearers and members treated with the same disdain as KKK members."
"margin - you have commented on the lack of ""methodology"" before on other threads, equally incorrectly.
All of the ""worrying"" polls - and there have been quite a few before this week's coming to very similar conclusions - have been conducted by well-known polling organisations.
Nonetheless I agree with the second part of what you say!"
"""Strangely enough, Rajnaara, not many people are concerned about Polish terrorists right now..."" - CJD
And, indeed, equally strangely the British are not slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Poles and destroying their country right now.
I wonder if there is a connection?"
"""And, indeed, equally strangely the British are not slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Poles and destroying their country right now.""
Sorry, what? Destroying whose country??
These guys are British, aren't they? (Though their parents/grandparents may be Pakistani - are we destroying Pakistan?)
Or are you saying they're not *really* British?
Is that what you're saying, goodfairy??"
"Goodfairy: ""And, indeed, equally strangely the British are not slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Poles and destroying their country right now.
wonder if there is a connection?""
How many of the 7/7 bombers were Iraqis, exactly?"
"Margin:
""remember - the stats this week have no methodology - and with no register of every muslim, there is no way to formulate a fair sample of any size - do they just phone anyone in the book called Ali and ask them?""
As CJCJC points out, you are simply wrong here. The sample size for this poll was 1,000, pretty typical for an opinion poll on any subject.
""we should ask why so many are unemployed or behind bars. This is not their fault as groups or individuals""
Yes it is, and the same comment applies to criminals of any religious group or ethnic or economic background. If you commit a crime, and are subsequently convicted & imprisoned, it IS your fault.
Goodfairy:
""And, indeed, equally strangely the British are not slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Poles and destroying their country right now.""
The men arrested overnight are being described as British. Not Iraqi, or Palestinian. British. And the British aren't ""slaughtering"" anybody. Iraqi Muslims are slaughtering other Iraqi Muslims. And the British aren't ""destroying"" the Sparkhill area of Birmingham."
"somehope
I think that Goodfairy means that as Poles are predominantly Catholic that targetting Polish terrorists is a universal attack upon Catholicism.
As in Northern Ireland where the entire South American continent rose up in support of the dirty protests."
I think it's safe to say the the vast majority of the British public are sick and tired of the "Muslim community".
"**I think it's safe to say the the vast majority of the British public are sick and tired of the ""Muslim community"".**
Er, which community is that, anyway? The Palestinian Muslim community, the Balngaldeshi Muslim Community or the Pakistani Muslim Community or the Indian Muslim Community, the Somali Muslim Community...? Remarks that treat completely heterogenous peoples as one, solely because of a shared religion (albeit Sunnis and Shi'ites loathe one another) are profoundly illiberal.
But I agree that many of us are sick and tired of loud-mouthed 'Muslim community leaders' and dare I say, CIF writers such as Ms. Akhtar telling us how unfair we're all being because we don't want Sharia in the UK."
"tomper2
""How many of the 7/7 bombers were Iraqis, exactly?""
So if they were you would be less extreme?"
"[Rajnaara Akhtar: What does the sharia mean? It is surprising that an educated politician would exploit a word in such a way.]
Surprisingly also, educated judges have made similar statements:
Turkish Constitutional Court (1998): ""rules of sharia [...] were incompatible with the democratic regime""; ""Democracy is the antithesis of sharia.""
European Court of Human Rights (2001): ""sharia is incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy""; ""[sharia would] do away with the State's role as the guarantor of individual rights and freedoms"" and ""infringe the principle of non-discrimination between individuals as regards their enjoyment of public freedoms, which is one of the fundamental principles of democracy"".
[Rajnaara Akhtar: Sharia is nothing to be afraid of and it merely encompasses a code which many Muslims already live by, regardless of where they are.]
Likewise, deportation is nothing to be afraid of.
Send us a postcard."
"It is nonsense to say this is an issue of private faith, isn't Ms Akhtar? In reality, you are talking abou a proposal by diverse muslim organisations to allow Sharia family law to be applied to muslims. It is a way to police the community and decide issues of contention between parties. Therefore, signing up to sharia will mean for some people signing away their rights under UK law, and will affect children, who certainly won't have a say in the matter.
How would this work, Miss Akhtar? Would anyone who affects to be muslim be legally bound by Sharia law? What if one party wants to resolve an issue following Sharia, and the opposing party does not? Can one opt in for one dispute and opt out for another? Are we going to see 'community pressure' to ensure muslims would opt into Sharia? Are we going to see mothers having their rights over their young children severely reduced because Sharia values those rights less than those of the fathers? On which points does Sharia law clash with UK law?
For once Inayat has my vote:
Daily Mail today: ""Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the MCB, also attended the meeting but distanced his group from the calls for Sharia law.
He said: 'We believe one legal code should apply for all citizens of the UK. There is no place for multiple legal systems for people of different religious or ethnic backgrounds. """
"The usual sort of responses from bigots who accuse everyone else of being bigots.
Forget the Muslim community (that should really be communities) abd focus on the Tories' report. Cameron has just jumped on the Blairite ""appeal as much as we can to win over Middle England"" bandwagon. Pathetic and indicative of a real lack of imagination. Just who is or what is ""Middle England"", by the way? As mythical as a unified Muslim community, if you ask me."
"tomper2: ""How many of the 7/7 bombers were Iraqis, exactly?""
Daroon: ""So if they were you would be less extreme?""
What do you mean?"
"Rajnaara - the fact that you wear a headscarf is perceived as you rejecting British culture (and from what you write I think in many ways you do).
Not helped by you saying sharia is nothing to be afraid of - perhaps you have some cuddly definition of sharia, but by the definition most of the world understand you as a woman should be terrified of sharia.
As far as I understand it, Jewish courts are almost completely uncontroversial within and outside that community (but if it was controversial then UK law would always trump it). That will never happen with sharia, so forget it.
Muslims contribute less to Britain economically and culturally than any other identifiable group (except to the development of airline security) - this won't change until your culture does.
All of us would prefer to live in a country where all communities contributed equally - all the attention which is on your community is because of the terrorism. You can do far more about that than the rest of us."
"Rajnaara Akhtar: ""Sharia is nothing to be afraid of and it merely encompasses a code which many Muslims already live by, regardless of where they are.
Sharia is the rules which regulate the life of a Muslim; there is no need to impose them on any other individual or at a state level as they are based on a person's religious convictions.""
--snip--
""Britain 's 2.5% Asians are thought to contribute approximately 10% of the country's GDP - £100 billion or so."" -----------------------------
I guess I wouldn't have too much of a problem with Sharia if it's applied to only muslims. It would cut down on the numbers of muslim criminals if we could cut off their hands when they steal or stone or flog them for grooming underage girls into prostitution.
In fact that sounds like a really great idea.
Why aren't more people in favor of this?
Reagarding 'Asian' contributions to GDP, I'd also like to know why you and other muslims like to use 'Asian' when it comes to wealth and education. I already know the answer actually. It's because you want to ride on the coat tails of the Indians who would be doing even better as a groups if the didn't have Asian muslims dragging them down.
Let's look at the economic data of just muslims: =========================== 35 % of Muslim households have no adults in employment, (more than double the national average). (Source: 'Muslim Housing Experience', Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies)
Just under three-quarters of Bangladeshi and Pakistani children (73%) are living in households below the poverty line (60% of median income). This compares with under a third (31%) for children in all households. (Source: Department for Work and Pensions. Households Below Average Income 1994/5 - 2000/01)
--snip--
* In 2001 52% of Muslim households did not own their own home.
* 28% of Muslim households were living in social rented accommodation that is accommodation rented from the council or housing association.
--snip--
* In 2004, 28% of 16-24-year-old Muslims were unemployed. This compares with only 11% of Christians of the same age. (Source: National Statistics 2001 Census report on faith)
* In 2004 almost seven in ten (69%) Muslim women of working age were economically inactive. (Source: Social Trends No. 36, 2006)
--snip--
Almost 10% of the prison population are Muslim, two-thirds of whom are young men aged 18-30. (Source: Prison Service statistics, 2004)
http://www.nya.org.uk/Templates/internal.asp?NodeID=92837 ===========================
Muslims are not making a great contribution to the economy."
"``The Conservative party is not endearing itself to the Muslim community. ''
And I bet they're really cut up about that. A community with disproportionate levels of unemployment, poor education and poor English skills, concentrated into safe Labour seats, affect the Tories' electoral chances how, exactly? Meanwhile, pointing out the facts of life --- that the Tories will bring to an end the relentless pandering to Muslim special interests --- plays well with the 97% of the population who _aren't_ Muslim. Were I a Tory Karl Rove, I'd say that Cameron's strategy was absolutely brilliant.
Everyone is recommended to read the MCB's pamphlet on the special treatment that Muslims need in the work place. After a long list of things an employer has to provide for the privilege of employing Muslims, it handily neglects to present any reason why there would be a point to doing so. The same goes for the Tories: they've realised that the Muslim community is all victim, no benefit."
Further illumination is definitely required.......I mean look at the populist wingnut darlings of the American right-wing.......They're the year zero of the intellectual process.
"The modern incarnation of eugenics lies in the environmental movement, they say population is the cause of all our troubles. Inspired by the ideology of Thomas Malthus the 19th century British imperialist they want a ""planetary regime"" controlling every aspect of our lives. John P Holdren Obama's science czar has written about this many times.
Webster Tarpley spells this agenda out in this amazingly informative video, try to ignore the hyperbole in the opening sequence.
webster tarpley"
"I didn't even know this kind of crap happened.
Hell I knew half of america was racist was back then (the number appears to have gotten somewhat better as of late) but this just shocks me.
I am glad that they are attempting to right a wrong but I cannot see how anything could ever right a wrong such as this."
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Strummered - the second largest eugenics sterilisation programme in Europe was brought in by the progressive Social Democratic Party of Sweden and lasted from 1934 until 1975 - 62,000 forced sterilisations. It was the wingnuts of the left as much as those of the right.
"A very informative article, Edwin, that tells us how common eugenics and its ideas were in the USA and Germany in the inter-war period, the huge damage that this movement did to many lives, mostly poor and black, and the crucial role that the movement played in generating popular support for the Nazis in Germany. This compensation is not before time and must be widened to all victims, although many are now dead.
A useful addition to the article would have been to show the links to the pioneers of the abortion movement and their own support for eugenics. Marie Stopes in the UK was a fanatical devotee of Hitler and Margaret Sanger, the founder of what became Planned Parenthood, was also a supporter of eugenics.
>>The intellectual, academic, scientific and financial elite believed better men and women could be cultivated using the same techniques a farmer would employ to create a better herd of cattle or field of wheat<<
This statement should also be seen in the context of elite support for abortion as a basis for population control of poor and black families. The concern has never been primarily for the poor but elite fear of high birth rates amongst the poor. The origins of the abortion movement are indeed quite dark!"
"Let's also not forget that the SS was inundated with doctors wanting to join their ranks in order to exterminate those of us who were Disabled. History seems to conveniently forget what happened to us. Our own government is conducting a kind of financial eugenics on those of us who receive Disability benefits.
And I feel like going out and breeding, just to upset thetrashheap."
I'd like to see a comprehensive longitudinal study to back up that assertion
"the human capacity for cruelty knows no bounds. seems to me our capacity for reparation should be similarly limitless.
Fifty grand is quite pitiful (not that I'm knocking the efforts to find a suitable figure) and by no means reflective of the scale of the initial abuse.
in terms of ""the communities that weren't"", and an attempt to gauge how one should remunerate people who were never born: how about the sectors of society that were targeted? are they still marginalized, underprivileged, deprived, underrepresented, disenfranchised, undereducated? how about spending a few millions putting that right?"
"you think that is all the USAmerica is capable of?
Look at this
Add to that the brazen maintenance of a Gulag in Guantanamo Bay and you have the whole set of everything USAmerica accused the Soviet Union of."
"nansikom said:

US Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg is quoted saying that her understanding of legalizing abortion through Roe V. Wade is that it would help eliminate ""undesirables"".
Just wait if they ever discover a ""gay-gene"" - watch how the abortion/eugenic politics flips on its head."
"True.
And I'd add that the Fabians gave eugenics serious consideration.
All utopian ideals - from left and right - are always underpinned by someone's own personal idea of the good life. Anyone who offends that ideal is vulnerable to one day be lined up for extermination - when that utopia starts to suffer a wider legitimation crisis.
Capitalism and state socialism have been equally guilty.
My own 'ideals' are more concerned with averting dystopias than creating utopias.
Try and wipe out your self-defined 'undesirables', but the human world will still remain and continue to be as complex and imperfect as its ever been."
"Why pick on North Carolina?


OK. Totally agree;) ... but there are some meta points to be made, just because this historical case was buried under the victors of WW2 mantle - it should not hide the fact that the science it was based on was considered so mainstream, for so long, previously to the war that it was considered a scientific ""consensus"".
Cue shameless quote from Michael Crichtons notes from State of Fear ;)


Guess which ""philanthropies are mentioned? Imagine which philanthropic organisations of today are going to be lionized 80 years hence?
;)"
"_AT_zamdolph,


Don't think that's true. If you look at the best global history of population-control movements last century, the right (imperialist, racial-nationalist etc.) pretty clearly dominates."
"U00010 said:

Gitmo = the Soviet Gulag?
Do you have even an insect's grasp on history?
Over 20 million human beings were put through the Commie's Gulag system and nearly 2 million were killed."
"According to Chris Rock, slave owners would use selective breeding techniques to ""breed"" slaves like farm animals. And as I recall, he has quite a funny routine about having ""super-slaves"", who eventually became the amazing athletes of basketball we know and love today.
I don't completely believe everything Chris Rock says, but reading this I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there were a grain of truth to it. And look at how they created the ghettos. The one on Chicago's south side is pretty amazing: keep 'em in by building it between a huge motorway and a giant lake and packing everybody in like cattle."
"SoCalifornian 28 June 2011 10:17PM
So a few rapes and a few people being tortured is ok by you then.
Would you say the same about child abuse?"
I cannot believe that people are trying to make this a political issue - left or right are not terms that apply to the ideology of racial or genetic purity, it is simply an evil that we must remember and hope to god that the entire human race will one day be free of.
"Britain was culpable too in the eugenics movement. Where I worked many years ago there was a resident who had been admitted to a mental hospital aged 16 for being ""of dubious virtue"" and likely to ""proliferate"". Her crime? to have a crush on a local village lad. When the institution closed as part of the big reform of mental health facilities she went straight into a care home aged 79. 63 years incarceration and although thoroughly institutionalised no signs of mental health problems or promiscuous behaviour.
The ideas were popular because they gave people a feeling of superiority over others. Gave then the feeling that they should have the right to dictate over life, family, marriage, where you lived, who you saw.
And before there are any comments about feckless brits today (single mums scroungers etc) I;d point out that these people seem to have the intelligence to get what they want from a state willing to provide it.
Its also not these or the ranks of ordinary folk who get us involved in foreign wars (legally approved by the NATO or UN bods or not) we do not need to be sending our young men to die in. In all types and races there are good and not so good. If only we didn't want to feel that superior to those who are different from us."
Christ on a bike, I can't believe there are people trying to argue that this isn't so bad or ''Well, Stalin was worse'' - would the same people say the same of the Holocaust which this ''science'' and its supporters so enthusiastically supported and enabled? Stalin was an evil fuck, so was Hitler, so were the vile people who funded and supported this disgusting barbarity. One evil doesn't justify, mitigate or excuse another.
"SoCalifornian 28 June 2011 10:17PM
Perhaps you would like to put a number on how many people being kidnapped and tortured and illegally imprisoned is ok?
Given one of those kidnapped was a minor would you say that was ok because it wasn't 200 instead of 'just' one?
Given just over 40 have been proven to be innocent but are still being held prisoner what number of innocent people held illegally in a GULAG is ok?
Guantanamo Bay prison is a Gulag. Live and learn."
"_AT_Clunie,


Capitalist eugenics, comrade. You have to understand, capitalist eugenics is different from socialist eugenics."
danielwaweru: I hope that's sarcasm (sorry if I'm being obtuse). I'm a democratic socialist, but I can't see the difference between one variety and another, whatever name they're done in, whatever or whoever the perpetrators claim to represent.
"_AT_U00010
2000 is bad, but 20 million is worse. How about that?
Comparisons like yours trivialize real issues and while you may try to fob them off as conscience they're actually apologies for the more serious crimes.
Can you maybe work circumcision into this as well?"
"SoCalifornian:
The article and the discussion is about the shameful eugenics programme in the US. Can you stop trying to derail this thread from the outset and discuss the topic at hand?
Incidentally, the Gulags where for political dissidents, completely different topic. Carnegie, Rockerfeller et al where trying to wipe out an entire race and class of their fellow human beings, because they didn't even believe them equals/humans. Their links with Nazism irrefutable."
"Menardo 28 June 2011 10:33PM
No you are wrong it doesn't matter how many people are abused.
ANY number is wrong. Got it yet?"
"LaRitournelle said:

Yes yes - another anti-American circle-jerk on CIF.
So we are talking about US Eugenics half a century ago, and U00010 is bringing up GITMO trying to make an extremely lame comparison to the Communist atrocities that were several thousand times worse in terms of the number of lives destroyed.
But I guess I am the one hijacking the thread?
IRT - not sure how one can be critical of eugenics and not abortion."
The repellent eugenics crusaders were fighting a losing battle from day one. In a few decades time the current white majority in the US will be a minority with the Hispanics the largest ethnic grouping. The country will one day be run by the latinos. Rockefeller will be turning in his grave. LOL.
And yet their endowments live on, having massive influence over national governments, does anyone believe that the ideology of the ruling class has changed much over the past century? Eugenics, imperialism, fascism and elitism are alive and kicking in our present ruling class (owners of banks and multinationals).
SoCalifornian: FFS, the victims of this were Americans too - do you think that the survivors' objections are rooted in ''anti-Americanism''?
"'another anti-American circle jerk'?
Don't be daft! I think U00010 is off topic as well and for your info, the ref to Gitmo is not on either, it's a different debate."
Further Crichton quote about eugenics:
"""In Great Britain at this moment, when half, or perhaps two-thirds of all the married people are regulating their families, children are being freely born to the Irish Roman Catholics and the Polish, Russian and German Jews, the thriftless and irresponsible. This can hardly result in anything but national deterioration, or this country falling to the Irish and the Jews.""
(from Fabian Tract No 131, written by Sydney and Beatrice Webb)"
It all starts somewhere...
"_AT_Clunie,


Yes (damn the internet). Rightwingers often---sort of self-revealingly---retell a famous joke about socialist lobotomies, when their attitude to eugenics is exactly the same."
"LaRitournelle
28 June 2011 10:47PM
No you are incorrect...
A particular climate of division and generates the momentum which continues the same absurdity into other fields with exactly the same cruelty and human disregard.
Here
and
this
I don't see a huge gap or divide between such blatant disregards for humanity."
And no, being critical of eugenics and not abortion is absolutely acceptable! two entirely different things, despite the dark aspects of Marie Stopes' class-based leanings toward eugenics, ironically, it was only married women from stable middle class homes who could legally procure an abortion initially. So that kind of cocks up the eugenics line!
"Zamdolph writes the truth. the shocking thing about the Swedish eugenics programmes is that they continue up until about 30 years ago.
The Swedish state-sponsored eugenics movement had no particular racial angle as far as I know, not surprisingly since Sweden had a remarkably homogenous uniracial population until recently.
There was an important racial element in the US programmes because at that time, like it or not, it was generally believed by the northern European white majority that other groups tended to to be feckless and inferior.
Eugenics was once very fashionable (UK supporters included these two left luminaries George Bernard Shaw and H.G. Wells). Many nations dabbled in it. The only one to take it to murderous lengths was Nazi Germany. Edwin Black's suggestion that the US was somehow the precursor of the Nazi murders is disgraceful. He himself admits that no such euthanasia laws were ever passed in the US, even at state level. No gas chambers, no other forms of euthanasia.
Nansikom says the the eugenic movement played a crucial role in generating popular support for the Nazis in Germany. This is nonsense and wholly untrue. Convinced Nazis no doubt bought into the eugenic idea, but the Nazi's pre-war implementation of eugenics/euthanasia was so unpopular amongst the general population that it had to be conducted clandestinely to avoid public outcry, and the rumours about it were enough to have it officially (although not practically) abandoned from about 1941 onwards.
Crucial role in generating popular support for Nazis my foot."
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I am not one that wishes to downplay this hideous movement, nor to let folks off easily because others did worse. But the point is not that the Nazis or Stalin did worse, it is simpler and more direct than that. With the exception of the North Carolina debacle,the scheming of these racist monsters really got nowhere in the States. That is an important lesson. Why did it catch hold in Germany among the general populace and not in the States. The rhetorical structure of the article dances around the issue. Or is that question too pointed for a European audience?
"U00010
Points taken :)
Am a bit tired and not using my own computer so a bit below par with my posts."
Above from wiki. That about spans the ideological range. Eugenics seemed to mainstream thought in many countries. Now it's not. Teach that in schools, and offer some cash.
"What about the dark past of European eugenics?
In 1997, the Swedish government admitted the widespread eugenic sterilisation of ""feeble-minded or racially inferior women."" It seems that 60,000 Swedes who were either mentally defective, or who merely regarded as lacking ""Nordic"" racial features (such as ""gypsies"") were compulsorily sterilised in the period 1935-1970. Many others were locked up for years. Evidence is also appearing that this practice also occurred in many other European countries, including 15,000 mentally handicapped women forcibly sterilised in France.
We never had eugenics laws in the UK, but we shouldnt be smug about this, because we escaped eugenics by the skin of our teeth.
In 1903, H. G. Wells wrote, ""if we could prevent or discourage the inferior sort of people from having children, and if we could stimulate and encourage the superior sort to increase and multiply, we should raise the general standard of the race."" George Bernard Shaw was another enthusiastic eugenist, who put forward eugenic arguments in his play, 'Man and Superman.' And I've already posted Fabian Tract No 131, written by the Webbs.
But it wasn't just Socialists who promoted eugenics. One of its most vocal advocates in Britain was the Dean of St. Paul's Cathedral, Dr. William Inge, known as the ""Gloomy Dean"" for his warnings about overpopulation. In an essay published in 1917 called 'Eugenics', he pointed out that all the males in his family had won scholarships at Eton, Oxford and Cambridge, but ""unfortunately the birth-rate of the feeble-minded is quite 50% higher than that of normal persons."" The answer was eugenics, beginning with ""the compulsory segregation of mental defectives.""
In 1912, the first International Eugenics Conference, with over 750 delegates, was held in London. It was attended by the Liberal home secretary, Winston Churchill (a recent defector from the Tories.) Churchill called for a ""simple surgical operation [sterilisation] so the inferior could be permitted freely in the world without causing much inconvenience to others."" With Churchill's influence, Asquith's Liberal government introduced a draft proposal, the Mental Deficiency Bill, for the compulsory detention of the ""feeble-minded."" Hundreds of petitions arrived in Parliament urging the government on.
With powerful figures from both left and right urging eugenics, it seems the UK escaped eugenics legislation by the skin of its teeth. Only one public figure waged a vigorous, and ultimately successful, campaign against the 1912 Bill. That person was G.K. Chesterton. The Catholic Church naturally condemned the Bill, but the Church had little influence back in 1912. It was left to Chesterton (who was to convert to Catholicism 10 years later) to tour the UK giving speeches and lectures against what he called the ""Feeble-minded Bill.""
Chesterton's campaign was a success. After much criticism in Parliament, the Mental Deficiency Act was passed in 1913 in a severely watered-down form. The attempt to prevent the procreation of the unfit was abandoned. Sterilisation was not even mentioned, nor was there compulsory segregation of the ""mentally deficient."" The only real new power was to take the illegitimate children of paupers into care.
http://www.secondspring.co.uk/articles/sparkes.htm"
"Chilling comparisons with the current trend for demonising the poor, the vulnerable and the disabled now, along with the single Mothers. This class war against the poor by the rich has never stopped and apparently stops at nothing.
Many thanks SteveNayeeve for the quotes."
"_AT_PapistPal,


This is, of course, not true, since the very first paragraph mentions twenty-seven other states in which this sort of thing was done. Or, you could, you know, read a book or two or three and discover that all this eugenic goodness was for export. He might also have mentioned the experiments conducted abroad, but, as you can see from comments here, Americans (and others) are quite willing to defend, excuse or mitigate violent eugenic arrangements which victimise their countrymen, so there is no hope where foreigners are concerned."
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"LaRitournelle 28 June 2011 11:01PM
I appreciate that response. Thank you."
"peterNW1
Well, finally someone caught on. But it's too late. The Irish-Jewish conspiracy to take over England is in its final phase. No one can stop us now. Not even Dr. Who! Speaking of Whom, my favorite Dr. Who, Tom Baker is, you got it, half-Irish and half-Jewish. He was even a monk for a while. That's when we turned him.
So congratulations Peter."
"I'be be able to take this article much more seriously if someone could point out a recent Graun comment piece that highlights the eugenics practice in countries such as Germany, or Sweden. But then of course, Sweden can do no wrong! Why? Because it is socialist of course!
Until then, I'll just have to assume that this is the typical graun lopsided hit piece. The odds are overwhelmingly in my favor that this is the case.
The inability of the Graun to ""self-examine"" Europe while directing its hypocrisy at the U.S. is unreal. The notion that the U.S. is in ANY way more racist than Europe is untrue and disgusting."
"Interesting. In medical research - the field I work in - there is now, an entire field of human ethics. Discussions and regulations, trace their roots, to the 1930s and 40s.
The Swedish forced sterilization programs are often mentioned.
I didn't know, the USA also, had forced sterilization programs. Must remember that."
"danielwaweru
These initiatives got no place-in the other states, that is. Your mistake is taking this article for factual. Honestly, I know something about this business. I'm not saying the intentions were not the worst, but the bastards could not find any popular support for their programs.
I have, by the way, always enjoyed your posts.
Have you given any thought to joining the Irish-Jewish conspiracy to take over England that peterNW1 just uncovered. We're looking to expand."
"_AT_PeterNW1,


This is ridiculous, even if confined to laws passed in the UK."
"It was Darwinism that started eugenics. Evolution theory took the world by storm. An easy to read book detailing a scientific truth so obvious and so patently true that one had to be stupid or religious not to believe it. And then lesser minds corrupted it.
Eugenics wasn’t a product of the right or left, those terms are meaningless in this context. It was corrupted science telling the enlightened exactly what religions had been telling their adherents for centuries.
You are the chosen people.
That means everyone else is inferior and you can do with them as you wish.
The same thing can happen again. In fact, the same thing will happen again, has happened since.
Evolution tells us one thing: we have a long way to go."
"There's a partial list of the membership of the Eugenics Society here
http://www.eugenics-watch.com/briteugen/index.html
There seem to be a lot of Darwins included
The entry for Marie Stopes reads"
"_AT_Danielwaweru

I don't believe you either.
The Swedish eugenic sterilisation programme is well documented, So is the Indian population control sterilisation programme. Google them. Neither country is or was right, imperialist, racial-nationalist etc.
Your argument, regularly deployed, is to unilaterallly state that some work or study is the best in the field, and then give an Amazon link to the title where there is no pertinent information available to support your particular assertion.
I'd be more convinced if you quoted the data, not just the title, that you claim supports your argument."
"Papistpal: I'd say 60,000 people being coercively sterilised is hardly a tiny number and could be argued to be mainstream. Oliver Wendell James is and was hardly an unheard of nonentity, ditto Roosevelt and the Rockerfellers, or indeed our own GB Shaw, HG Wells and Sidney Webb. Pretending that this ideology wasn't known of or popular (certainly among the better off) in Western nations seems like a fairly desperate attempt to airbrush history on anyone's part.
No nation can stand above any other and claim to be morally pure - Europe, including Britain, had plenty of its own horrors down the centuries and isn't lacking in their heirs now - I know there are still those who'd be happy to see certain sections of the community denied equality or targeted for hatred and dehumanisation (with the Roma, in Europe at least, still being favourite amongst the targets). I hope that they don't represent all of any of our nations, but the worst of all of them. In Germany, the worst were elected to power (and heartily supported by very mainstream names, the Daily Mail for one). Now we see their heirs and/or admirers rising up again across Europe and in the US Tea Party,"
I hope the ConLib con coalition have not read this piece...
"U00010 said:

Not a ""huge gap""?
Just a rounding error............several million human beings?
_AT_LaRitournelle - the majority of abortions that take place in the US today are done on African American unborn babies.
Hopefully 50 years from now, humanity will look back at abortion with the same horror as eugenics."
"It is my difficult duty to challenge the secondary point in this article - the dismissal of eugenics as flawed science.
As our knowledge of genetics grows, it is clear that the fundamental premise of eugenics - that you can engineer traits in human populations through selective breeding - is far from flawed. We are natural resources like any other and do not fall outside the laws of science, however much we may wish it, or however unpalatable the potential outcomes of that understanding might be. \
The case against criminals like Carnegie, Rockefeller and the rest needs to be made against the flaws of their character, rather than the fundamentals of their science"
"_AT_PapistPal,


Too kind :)


That's not quite right, since other states had involuntary sterilisation laws, and sterilisation was popular in Virginia (and, I think, California, but the one I know about is Virginia, because I have an interest in the guy behind the movement.)"
Josef Mengele would've been proud of her.
"Clunie
The trouble is, I don't disagree with your comment. So, I'm perplexed with the problem you had with mine. I was making a distinction. There really is one to be made. And yes, no one stands above the damn thing. Amen to that."
Some of the comments on here are absolutely pathetic. People arguing about who did it first or worst. Its like the playground in a primary school. The article is about what happened in parts of the US.
"SoCalifornian 28 June 2011 11:22PM
Again try answering the question.
Which number is it ok and which number is it not?
You see to me it is not about numbers at all.
It is about pointing at something wrong.
You obviously cannot see the elephant in the room."
"danielwaweru
Fair enough. Still the point about popular support, my main point stands. We need to know why it didn't capture the popular imagination, why the masses were not, by and large, hoodwinked. It's important danielwaweru. Not every distinction is meant to downplay guilt and responsibility. Some are made in the hope of discovering how to resist such horrors effectively, even as we reject and repent them."
Oh, stop it Fowler9. The article does treat Nazi Germany. And there is no comparison between what happened in the States and what happened there. Are you mad?
"Hungle writes ...

Of course it's possible for those in power to alter the human genepool via selective breeding. No one doubts that. But I think you're missing the moral issue: What right have those in power to play God with the powerless -- to decide who breeds and who doesn't breed? Does power itself give them that right?"
"hungle 28 June 2011 11:24PM
point well made and a good time in the thread to look at the absurdity of the entire 'concept' of race given the discoveries of genetic science.
AND the ultimate conclusion to be made of racists.
That making a politic of a phobia is absurd and absurdity leads to atrocity.
Racists are sick. Literally. Phobics in denial projecting their illness and transferring it into an absurd politic.
Race is absurd. Our species survived a cataclysm 80 to 90 thousand years ago and WE are all the descendants of about 10,000 survivors and previous to that WE ALL have common ancestry coming from a region on the planet presently called Africa.
Race is a nonsense.
Racism is sick and racists should seek therapy."
"U00010
Brilliant. So the holocaust is reduced to mere nothingness, once a single person kills another somewhere else in the world in the name of racial hatred."
"Papistpal 28 June 2011 11:39PM
Not only comparison but a relationship."
"Papistpal 28 June 2011 11:47PM
U00010
Brilliant. So the holocaust is reduced to mere nothingness, once a single person kills another somewhere else in the world in the name of racial hatred.
What don't you understand about inhumanity being nothing about numbers but being about an act?"
The Swedish required the mandatory sterilisation of transgender people up until a few years ago. The French still requires trans people to be sterilised before it will legally recognise them.
"U00010
I'll go with relation-the relation is hatred, yes.
But don't go silly on me about the comparison.
Just tell me please, when you say comparison
you're implying equivalency, because that's
what it sounded like in your earlier post.
Disclaim that and I'm on board."
"_AT_corstopitum,


Zamdolph's conclusion doesn't follow from his premisses: he notices the Swedish programme, and concludes that eugenics was as popular on the left as it was on the right. Indeed, given the extent and virulence of the German, American and various imperial eugenics programmes, the claim is laughable on its face.


That's neither true nor relevant: at least some of the supporters of eugenics programmes hoped to see the eventual extermination of disfavoured groups.


That's not even true of Germany, cf. Herero genocides, and the preceding reception of Darwinism.


Forcible sterilisation is about as eugenic a laws as there is. The Racial Integrity Act is tougher than the Nuremberg Laws. (cf. their definitions of ancestry.)


First, I'm not sure that's true. Second, eugenic ideas weren't confined either to euthanasia or sterilisation; they extended to racial hygiene by racial extermination. This latter idea---that history was a race war---was fairly popular, it preceded the Nazis, and part of their appeal was their evident desire to defend it. (Manuel Sarkisyanz has argued for a close connection between English social Darwinism and Nazism, but the better evidence is Richard Weikart's.)"
The elites are not like us.
"Regrettably today, La Retournelle, eugenics and abortion are not ""two entirely different things"" .
Currently, nine out of every ten children detected prenatally to have Down syndrome are routinely aborted.
Children at risk of abortion because of Down syndrome have human rights.
The biological and legal truth about each child at risk of abortion because of a disability is that he or she is a human being entitled under the rule of law to human rights protection ""before as well as after birth"", as recognized by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, Great Britain and other members of the international community solemnly agreed:
- to protect children at risk of arbitrary deprivation of life because of their disabilities;
- to provide them with prenatal as well as post-natal care;
- to institute community education programmes that foster respect for them as part of human diversity and humanity; and
- to combat stereotypes, prejudices and harmful practices perpetrated against them.
Yet the thinly disguised purpose of the current co-ordinated population-based screening programs is quite literally the decimation of the future population of persons with Down syndrome.
Such a programmed decimation is encompassed quite intelligibly by the phrase “the intentional destruction, in whole or in part, of a group of human beings”. This phrase, in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) designates the crime of genocide which specifically includes the act of “imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group” with the intent to destroy it, in whole or in part."
"Hungle
I think the pseudo-science refers to the diagnosis of some races as inferior to others by measuring cranial size and that kind of thing. See ""The Mismeasure of Man,"" by Stephen J. Gould."
"You will find out that the Province of Alberta also had a very serious sterilisation programme which lasted, so far as I recall, into the 1960s. This was a policy of the Social Credit government which was widely supported by evangelical churches. Social Gospel ministries had a weakness for solutions, such as eugenics, which did not challenge the system though they sought to change it through social work.
The US Immigration laws were justified on eugenic grounds.
Many jurisdictions also had mandatory blood tests, before marriage, which were designed to prevent unsuitable reproduction. Misegeny laws were also enforced in many states. In some they may even remain on the books.
The entire Progressive era was suffused with eugenicist theories which were reflected in laws designed to breed out slum populations, for whose existence 'liberal' ideologists (such as the Fabians) were reluctant to blame the capitalist system.
The only ""socialists"" who believed in eugenics, with the exception of muddled individuals with no consistent ideas, were descendants of the utilitarian/evangelical radicals who were opponents of socialism. There is no mystery here: socialist principles are irreconcilable with racist, elitist anti working class policies. This is not to say, however, that there are not those who yearn for a third way of gathering the support of capitalism's victims for its crimes.
Eugenics is an integral part of Imperialist thought: necessitated by the existence of such things as the Raj which, absent racial hierarchy, is clearly a crime looking for a new brand of whitewash. It is no accident that Malthus, James and John Mill and Macaulay all worked for the East India Company."
"This ugly strain in past America is linked to other ugly strains in England and Germany which have arisen from time to time in history. It started with the split from the Catholic church; the new protestants felt they needed a historical justification for their separatist stance so they cast around and came up with the idea that they were decendants of an old superior tribe which originated in the middle east and had moved west into Germany. The idea came from liguistic work done at the time which believed all European languages had a common origin, a language named Aryan. From this idea of an orginal language it didn't take much imagination to jump to the idea of there being an Aryan race.
It was decided the new Protestants must be the Aryans' direct decendants and therefore were superior and ligitimately separate from the Catholics. This original idea morphed over time and took on different forms, in England people stopped believing themselves to be ancient Britons of King Arthur heritage and brothers to the Welsh and Scots and instead started to see themselves as Anglo-saxons, decended from the pure race which had moved to Germany from the middle east and then onto Britain where they had wiped out the original lesser races of the Celts.
The idea carried on over the ages and took on new life with the founding of America where it became 'Manifest Destiny', the idea that the group of people founding America were superior to the locals and the Mexicans and were therefore destined to take the land and reach the West coast as if god himself had chosen them to do it. The idea was very popular at the time and it's said Thomas Jefferson was very keen on it.
Of course we all know how the same core idea morphed into extreme horror in Nazis Germany but in fact it was only the brutality of what happened which finally made this 500-year old idea start to lose favour. It's an interesting story and I hope I have remembered the facts correctly, for more info read the book 'Blood of the Isles' or listen to Noam Chomsky talk about it."
"natbankofuganda

More than just consideration...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/feb/14/australia"
"_AT_corstopitum,

.
Connelly's book isn't just the best, it's the only full global history of the population-control movement in the twentieth century. Nor have you to take my word for its quality: it reviewed exceptionally well in the Economist and elsewhere, as Google will reveal.
The book is, like, 500 pages: there's a wealth of data, both quantitative and historical. Perhaps most efficient course is to quote you the relevant paragraphs from the concluding chapter:"
"I thought the American eugenics programme started with the genocide of Native Americans in the nineteenth century expansion west, not the sterilization of African-Americans?

I guess Redskins and Blackskins didn't count as 'men'."
"_AT_ Papistpal
No I'm not mad. Are you paranoid?"
From the link I mentioned above (re Australia's Stolen Generations):-
"This is a very peculiar thing to say of India. Or of Sweden for the matter.
Racism has a very long and complex history in India. And the country itself was the product of imperialism(s). As to Sweden's imperial history...."
"_AT_ Papistpal
Tom Baker is Scouse by the way. You can piss off with all your ""Half Irish half Jewish twice removed"" rubbish."
"Has anyone mentioned Senator Prescott Bush and his relationships with Planned Parenthood and the Third Reich, not to mention his progeny?

The Protestantism angle is interesting but special pleading, Tenner: from the very beginning the relations between Spain and the aboriginal population and, on the other hand, the Puritans and their aboriginal neighbours, has been a fertile ground for those seeking moral justifications for intra-imperialist wars."
Terrible - and to think North Carolina was a Democrat state then.
"Fowler9
OK, not mad. This is fun. Let's see, are you drunk, then?

Yes, TB is Scrouse. All the more credit to him.

Good night. It's been fun."
"Now, the state, under the weight of a multibillion-dollar deficit and a rising black political power base, is struggling to augment an official apology for its racist ways with financial compensation.
I personally find the inclusion of the parlous state of North Carolina's finances in this sentence rather disturbing. There seems to be an implication here that somehow when victims come knocking on the door for justice, we must ready the empty-till line.
Maybe they would have better finances if they didn't waste their money on criminal surgical assault.
Not a good look."
"I woke up in an awkward sweat
because I thought I dreamed a ghost.
Mengele, yes Mengele,
sat before me with my toast
Not U.S. darling Rockefeller
T'was Mengele, yes Mengele."
"ellis
my statement was


You comment


Why,?
The discussion is about eugenic movements in the 20th century and Sweden from 1930 onwards, the period in which the abuses occurred, was governed continually by a Social Democratic party that was neither right nor imperialist. What the Swedes got up to in the days of Gustavus Adolphus is no more relevant than what happened when they were Viking pirates and pillagers.
In the case of India, while individuals or groups may harbour all sorts of racist or religious prejudices, I don't think anyone could believe that its independent government from the days of Nehru to Mrs Gandhi was anything other than left (or at least non-right), anti-imperialist, non-racist, and secular."
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"Prendaghast
Want to learn something, Prendaghast, switch to the New York Times. Then you'll have a critical perspective on the US, from the inside, not a tendentious perspective from, well, the Guardian. Or at least this: Read both and check the facts. Stop loathing, it doesn't become you."
"_AT_PeterNW1,

Before you condemn someone else's words, why don't you examine your own? Why does your God get a pass for acting exactly the same way as the worse mass murderers in human history? What gives God the right to send the Great Flood wiping out all of humanity (presumably men, women, children) except Noah and his family? What gives God the right to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (presumably filled with men, women, children) except Lot and his daughters? What gives God the right to kill off the first born of Egypt during the Exodus, or aid in Joshua's genocidal campaign in the Land of Canaan?"
"""Eugenics was a fraudulent social theory""
How is it fraudulent? There is nothing inherently wrong with eugenics, and as the article points out, it actually is a successful practice in farming and ranching.
Sterilization is the humane way of carrying out eugenics. No reparations should be made, all sterilizations were done voluntarily.
No one was killed, all comparrisons to Nazis are ridiculous."
"Actually, this is a pretty superficial article.
Eugenics was an essentially a Darwinist European creation. The article doesn't mention, for example, Lombroso, Galton, Houston Stewart Chamberlain and others.
OK, Social Dartwinism became the dominant ideology of 20th-century America, and of Germany until the 1940s (strangely, the bad PR in Germany didn't seem to spread to the US version). It probably still is the dominant ideology of America.
But like most things in America, it started in Europe and got rather mangled in translation to the other side of the Atlantic."
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"Danielwaweru
I'll deal with the Connely book first if you don't mind.
Its conclusion which you quote does not demonstrate to me that population control, eugenic or otherwise, is or was dominated by right-imperialist-nationalist ethos, other than in the trivial sense that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries imperialist nations were the only ones who could impose their will over vast parts of the world, whether it was for birth control or better roads.
Some of it makes no sense at all.


How regulating migration maintains the fertility of European settlers I do not see.
I suppose if you regulate the immigration of Asian 'hordes', Chinese?, to California you may increase mortality back in China slightly, but on the other hand such policy would be in line with the wishes of the Chinese government which forbade emigration, So who is scratching whose back?
Other parts of the conclusion puzzle me too.


That is undoubtedly correct. But was not family planning for the poor in the West meant to relieve working class women of the burden of perpetual child-bearing (then a thing of the past for the upper classes) and improve their quality of life and that of their families? i.e. a good thing.
And was not the intention to extend the benefit of this good to Africans or Asians as likely to be altruistic as to be an imperialistic ploy?
If the quoted conclusion represents the arguments of the book then it sounds pretty wooly to me, no matter what The Economist says."
I come to terms with the 19th and the first half of the 20th centuries dismissing the period as a Stupid Age. And it was a Stupid Age! Piltdown Man, Eugenics, Colonialism, Opium Wars, slavery, lynching, war crimes of Italian Fascists (you only know of the NAZIs!) - they all run together fueled by an incestous mindset. Eugenics was not the only toxic discipline. There were others that sought and attempted to contribute to the Cause, however they defined it. Should I view Flinders Petrie any different from Francis Galton? Easily the most vile representatives of their age. Churchill? I am sure he has his admirers. Oh, yes, you too have your favorite evils or vile souls. Archaeology shelters its demons in the closet. The last fieldwork left for this bunch is digging out their petrified shame for us to see in museums. From time to time, PBS runs a documentary documentaing how post WWII archaeology departments in the US were staffed with architects of the Third Reich's pagentary. To think that their DNA is not in the curriculum....
"_AT_u00010
No, I am not wrong, as you argue with such subtlety. In thousands of years and billions of human lives that have passed on this earth, there are gradations of evil and goodness and your goal of no pain and no suffering and perfect peace and justice is a lovely goal and laudable, but it's a dream. Whether you're incredibly young or incredibly sheltered, you need to learn history, look at the world around you and ask yourself if you really think that it can be solved somehow. If we all just did what the Guardian told us tomorrow would the whole thing really just snap into place? Suffering will always be with us in one form or another—our job is to manage existence, not solve it, which means zero pain is best, but 2000 lives lost is better than 20,000,000."
"This is so controversial - not. Guardian readers don't need to be told, yet again, the story of how eugenics was widely believed in the thirties, by all educated people, including progressives, and how it led to Nazism and sterilization.
Darwin wrote ""The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life"". Was he wrong? Does his theory apply to all animals except humans?
We need to try to challenge our deep-rooted beliefs, not look around for historical examples which give us a warm fuzzy feeling.
Some of Stephen Jay Gould's anti-racist polemics disguised as science were recently exposed. Look up 'Gould Morton skulls'. That's what we need to try to do, not look for examples which confirm our liberal ideas."
"human population increased 300% in the 20th century
now at 7billion,
doesn't anyone think population growth needs to be managed?
obviously you don't go around killing people, but the current population boom, the associated poverty, the drain on global resources & the destruction of ecosystems is obviously unsustainable
try to decide how to draw the line so as not to step on anyone's rights"
Why don't white people just go ahead and hand over all their money once and for all and be done with it?
"corstopitum
28 June 2011 10:55PM:

Not true!
There were Finnish, Walloon, Samic and Romany elements - apart from native Swedish (whatever that is).
Maybe I've missed one or two groups, but Sweden was not ""uniracial""; nor did people living in Sweden fail to recognise differences, whether real or imagined.
Pseudonyms
28 June 2011 11:16PM:


Sweden isn't socialist!
Sweden has a right-wing government, now into its second term of office.
Eugenics should be condemned wherever it has hurt people, regardless of the politics of the perpretators.
gg"
"This is the history of freedom in America...Apologize & attempt to show attrition later but carry on in the present day...The sheer magnitude of what historians will be reviewing & condemning about American practices over this past decade will be staggering
It continues to reveal an arrogant & vile reality - The United States is no model for freedom, democracy or humanity"
"FCBarca
The mechanism is called projection, FC.
Good luck with China. Let us know how it
goes. And good luck, too with your own
colonial history and Germany's legacy.
We're not buying it."
"Most educated Guardian liberals think they are a superior breed. Incapable of racism, sexism, homophobia, greed, loving everyone, completely selfless and only ever working for the good of the majority.
I think deep down you all wish you could eugenics the right along with all the capitalists and have a pure race of educated liberals. You believe if that were to occur you'd have your Utopia and you could all live in peace.
“eliminate the bad stock, proliferate the good” The raison d’etre of the educated liberal."
"Lostalex


Would that be the same farm animals which cannot breed on their own? Which suffer from congenital ailments?
Let us look at dog breeding. Hip problems, eye-lashes growing into eyes, skin ailments: when people get involved it all goes wrong.


I think you miss the point, and by some distance, if you consider the problem is the manner in which eugenics is carried out. You seem to be suggesting it would have been perfectly alright for Germany to sterilise Jews, the disabled, those with mental problems and those not 100% fascist. After all, no one killed.
So then, no problem with the eradication of a race?
No pain, no blame is rather shallow."
"Doesn't make it right but people often thought they were doing good when they sterilized 'retarded' girls or women who had large numbers of children. It wasn't all some Nazi/racist conspiracy, there was plenty of simple ignorance at work.
How about the 30,000 people that were given lobotomies in the 40's and 50's?
How about all those illegitimate Irish kids born in English hospitals and funneled into Australian orphanages and the tender mercies of the holy fathers?
They all seemed like good social science at the time."
Is it ok for sperm banks to discriminate against bald short ugly stupid men?
"Uneducated

What paranoid drivel."
Not North Carolina... say it ain't so.
That picture of Rockefeller is terrifying. He looks like a Sith Lord crossed with a Skexxis. Appropriate really, seeing as he was fairly maniacally evil by the sounds of things.
Nah, if that happened they'd band together against us gingers. YES I'm still annoyed about Domino's Pizza Boy. :-P
Some pathetic point scoring here. Who cares about left/right sides of the fence? I think we should just hate the people that do this stuff.
"Surely we see eugenics described in the Old Testament ?
The God thingy orders his army to destroy every living thing in the city - I forget which one - there were so many, but to :
'Keep the female children and women who have not known a man for yourselves'.
Everyone in that city was considered sub-human because they were 'different', and therefore didn't deserve life. However, the female virgins could be used for breeding more of the Biblical Master Race."
"Well science is a double-edged sword and there's no doubt that the concept of eugenics was accepted by many in the medical profession.
The unfortunate thing today is that a trend for ""designer babies"" might be letting in eugenics through the back door."
"lovingu 8:48AM

It is well established that there is large genetic component to intelligence levels as well as to many aspects of personality. Nurture plays a part but the larger part is played by nature. There will always be some variation, smart people with dull children and vice versa. But the idea that given a good education 'underclass' children will turn out with the same average intelligence as the children of the middle class is fanciful."
"_AT_Valten78
In real life I’ve met a lot of guardian liberals who were oblivious to their underlying violent feelings towards people different to themselves. The ones I’ve known have swayed between patronising condescension towards the poor unfortunates who they deem to stupid or uneducated to know better and hatred for the tories, the rich and greedy. They looked down on everyone but just shifted between hate and pity. Surely this is a sign of feelings of superiority as discussed in the article?."
North Carolin may be an extreme example of the implementation of eugenics but it is far from being an unpleasant exception in the scheme of things in the first half of the twentieth-century. Eugenics seems to have been pretty much accepted as a valid and respectable scientific discipline amongst the global scientific community at the time crossing political and religious boundaries. In Britain our own H G Wells, a writer I much admire in other respects, was a prominent advocate but he was not regarded at the time as some kind of maverick or oddity and his ideas were regarded as perfectly valid and reasonable. We have now rejected this abhorrent pseudo-science but the history of this period should be a warning to us to question and treat with scepticism scientific pronouncements handed down to us from above.
"thetrashheap

Yes, imagine people getting upset with 'science' that advocates their sterilisation. The unreasonable bastards.

Define 'genetic wellbeing'.

So is genocide wrong only if you kill 'smart' people? By the by, I've known quite a few stupid middle class people.

Then give their parents jobs - they used to have them before their industries were obliterated three decades ago. Use public money to create jobs. Use public money to improve the education their children receive.

What is 'scientific' about an ideology that would rather sterilise poor people than give them jobs and an education?"
In an over-populated world fast running out of resources should the feckless be encouraged to reproduce, as they are by welfare systems which make breeding a viable career? Simple compulsory contraceptive implants for beneficiaries might go a long way to creating a more sustainable society and, in the longer term, a less over-populated planet.
"_AT_alftupper

It astounds me how many people can regard their fellow human beings as simply things or objects to be manipulated according to the needs of society. Have you ever tried imagining what it would be like if you were deemed to be one of these ""objects"" selected to be compulsorily implanted?"
"_AT_zamdolph

There's a lot of nonsense talked about 'Statens institut för rasbiologi' by people wishing to wriggle out of the uncomfortable fact that eugenics has primarily been a right-wing project.
The Swedish Wikipedia page about it is quite balanced:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statens_institut_för_rasbiologi
but you'll have to put it through Google Translate if you want to read it all.
The original law which set it up was passed on 13th May, 1921 (twelve years before the Social-Democrats took over the reins of power in Sweden). There was a weird alliance of right-wing politicians, right-wing academics and social-democrats behind it. The Swedish 'Bondeförbund' (Farmer's Union), which became the modern 'Centerparti' (Centre Party), which is one of the parties in the current right-wing government in Sweden, was one of main supporters of eugenics in the 1930s.
What the Social-Democrats can definitely be criticised for is allowing Statens institut för rasbiologi to survive. They were enamoured of 'government by experts' (as many right-wingers nowadays are), and didn't look too closely at the political affiliations of most of their experts.
You have to bear in mind that Sweden before the Social-Democrats was almost a Prussian state - in love with all things German. And, as a neutral state, Sweden didn't go through any form of de-nazification after the war. There were plenty of Conservatives who quietly took down the portraits of Adolf Hitler on 9th May 1945 and became staunch anti-communists (rather like the Nazis in the US zone of Germany).
In the late 1930s Swedish students voted to ban Jewish refugees from Uppsala University (on Nazi grounds) and the Swedish secret police collaborated openly and closely with the Gestapo. One of their tricks was to have a large 'J' printed in the Swedish passports of Swedish Jews to warn the Germans should the person in question travel to Germany.
During the war, an important task of the Social-Democratic government was to stop the right (supported by the King) to intervene - on the side of the Germans! I've taught several old-age pensioners who've all given me the same story (from widely-separated parts of Sweden) about when they were stationed on the border during the war:
""We had someone detailed to shoot the captain if the Germans came. That bastard would have just surrendered without a fight.""
It's taken many, many years to eradicate this kind of right-wing craziness in Sweden … and there's still a lot to be done."
Watching the antics of the worlds white christian societies, USA, Canada, Australia etc etc , we can certainly teach the Muslim Fundamentalists a thing or two.
Articles like this really bring the nutters out of the dark....
"conservative77

Tell you what, let's make jobs for their parents and if after 30 years of full employment. better nutrition and better education, there is no improvement in their intelligence, however you choose to measure it, then I'll accept your proposition."
"Come on, that ""blond and blue-eyed"" bit is just silly.
The eugenics people were obviously racists - but in most cases that meant northern European (where most of the people do not fit the above description).
Plus another main point for eugenics supports - like Churchill if I'm not mistaken - was also removing ""inferior"" white people from the gene pool as well.
And the very first case specified in the article is that of Carrie Buck - who was not black, hispanic or Jewish.

But all that aside: of course it's time for widespread recognition and reparations."
"What the fuck is wrong with you people? Whining ""But Miiiisss Laura Lefty started killing people first"" or ""Awww Muuuum Richard Rightwing forcibly sterilised more people than me"" is utterly disgusting, most of us learn that sort of excuse is unacceptable before we're five!
Christ I actually feel physically ill reading some of this shit."
"The enforced sterilisation of so many underprivileged people was scandalous and disgraceful.
But consider this - in a hospital where I worked a baby was brought in, suffering from malnutrition and with infected sores from lying in urine and faeces for days at a time. The mother had given birth to a number of children, by different fathers, and all of them had to be taken into care. One of the doctors involved with the child was angry that the woman could not be sterilised without her consent, which was not forthcoming. What remedy would posters suggest?"
"Perhaps, but your post doesn't actually address that. You are just making the simplistic point that IQ is largely inherited. That isn't actually relevant to whether on average 'underclass' people are less intelligent and doesn't substantiate your assertion.
The difference between the average intelligence of working class people and middle class people will not be more than 5-10 IQ points. Most evidence suggests that IQ can be increased by education by up to 15 IQ points or more.
Using your simplistic logic, that seems to indicate that, on average, middle class people will be less naturally intelligent than the 'underclass', since they already, on average, receive a much better education.
The other thing to point out is that no policy or judgements should be based on 'averages'. Just because working class people may on average have lower IQs, which can actually be accounted for by relative levels of education, there will be thousands of 'underclass' children who will be more intelligent than the average middle class child.
Aside from all that, I have always found it amusing how a lot of people with a vast overestimation of their own intelligence and worth are ready to volunteer other people for sterilisation. On the face of it (from reading their posts) 'Middle Class' posters such as TheTrashHeap seem to be both ignorant and fairly stupid, but their probable insecurity over these attributes leads them to suggest victimising the relatively small number of people whom they suppose to be less intelligent than themselves.
Even if TheTrashHeap and other ubermensch here had an IQ slightly above average, say 110, what reason is there that those who have higher IQ's should simply not eugenicise them? The suggested cut off point seems quite arbitrary in most cases, but everyone seems to think that anybody less intelligent than themselves should be volunteered for the snip. Self interest is not a justification. If TheTrashHeap thinks that people less intelligent than himself(?) should be sterilized because they are a burden, why shouldn't more intelligent people than TheTrashHeap want him sterilized for the same reasons?"
"HarryTheHorse 9:47AM
Great straw man you've constructed there. As I said already of course nurture will play a part in the development of intelligence. It is also true that there is a nurture component to height. Well nourished children will, all else being equal, grow up taller than those who were malnurished in childhood. To jump from there to asserting that genetics plays no part in differences in height is simply absurd, but no more absurd than to do the same for intelligence or personality."
"Weren't the USA's ultra right-wing 'Jim Crow Laws', which, among other things, forbade mixed marriages, a form of eugenics ?
Not fully repealed until the 1970's, another example of the odious policies of Conservative Christian America.
Today we simply substitute 'black' for 'gay' - and Bachmann's 're-education centres - to realise they haven't really changed."
"It is right to suggest that there is a genetic component to intelligence, but it is not as absurd to deny this genetic component as to deny the influence of genetics on height. Even accounting for both heredity and environment intelligence is much more variable than other genetically influenced features.
Of course most of the discussions in this thread skirt past a number of more subtle questions. Whether IQ is the same as intelligence, why intelligence is often seen as the measure of a man and (by some people) the most important aspect about, why pro-eugenics people can't recgonise that their arguments for eugenics apply equally as much to themselves. Why eugenicists are obsessed with intelligence and 'purity', rather than, for example, personality traits such as selflessness, which if they could be successfully bred would probably be much more desirable from the standpoint of society."
"shemarch

A change of doctor?"
"_AT_HarryTheHorse
Is your profile pic of G.H. Hardy?"
"conservative77

It what way did I misrepresent your argument? I said that I would accept your proposition if after 30 years of full employment, better nutrition and better education, the intelligence of those you refer to as the 'underclass' did not improve.

Now that is a genuine strawman as nowhere in my post did I deny the role of genetics. However it is fatuous and dishonest to attribute differences in measured intelligence and attainment to genetics when you fail to control all the other variables that may lead to differences - such as poverty, poor nutrition, poor education."
"robi

It sure is. Taken from the cover of the Mathematician's Apology"
"_AT_Pseudonyms

This opinion piece appeared in 2007 and makes clear its European history including reference to Sweden.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/22/comment.genetics?INTCMP=SRCH"
"_AT_papistpal


I don't think eugenics ever 'caught hold' in the general population of Germany. The nazi regime manipulated and bludgeoned the collective psyche of the populace until there was no effective opposition to its warped policies, and even then the so-called Final Solution was kept as secret as possible.
But yes, this article does seem to be an example of the Guardian picking a soft target by focusing on North Carolina, rather than taking a broader view.
My own country, Australia, dabbled in eugenics in the mid-20th century by taking indigenous children from their families and giving them to non-indigenous families. The hideous phrase used to justify such policies was 'smoothing the pillow of a dying race'."
"robi 10:16AM
I should make clear here than none of what I've said means that I am in favour of the kind of forced sterilisation programmes the article speaks about. I am absolutely against such programmes and perhaps I should have made that clear with my first post.
One problem I have with your post is your mixing up of 'working class' with 'underclass'. In my post I reffered to the difference in intelligence and personality between 'middle class' and 'underclass'. You then conflate that with a 5-10 point difference in IQ between the 'working class' and the 'middle class' (I haven't seen figures for that but I'll take your word for it, it seems plausible enough). I would however draw a clear distinction between the working class - ie people who usually work in non professional jobs for low to average incomes - and the 'underclass' people who actively avoid work and who prefer to live from welfare and crime.
I would not consider it 'right wing' at all to make this distinction, it was Karl Marx after all who invented the word lumpenproletariat. Where I think the left get it wrong is supposing that the dirrerence between these groups is purely environmental, that there is no genetic component to it. What I, and many people, find objectionable is to have a welfare and social system that rewards 'lumpen' behavior and encourages large families amongst that 'underclass' population while disincentivising working and middle class people from having children. To suppose this has no genetic effect on a society is, I fear, wishful thinking."
"Nothing i didn't already know. A good reminder of why moral superiority about history is generally flawed.
I'm afraid we've probably not seen the last of this. With world population growing exponentially similar voices to the eugenics movement will no doubt get louder.
Of course, the other side of the breeding issue is harder to police and harder ethically. That is, the rich will use genetics to improve their own young."
"robi 10:26AM


It is just as absurd to deny it. It is not aburd to say that one genentic component is geater than another. But to deny that it exists is just as absurd.


I quite agree (although as rodmclaughlin pointed out at the last paragraph of his 4:26AM post it is not just the right who 'mismeasure man')"
"_AT_conservative77
Well I wasn't attacking you in my post when I referred to people who want others to be sterilised.
The distinction you make between the working class and the underclass is perhaps a fair one, however I think the range of intelligence in the 'underclass' is likely to be much larger than in the other classes.
For example, many people in the so called underclass will be highly intelligent people with disabilities or suffering from illness, physical or mental health. I have known of unemployed people who are extremely intelligent but are wasters all the same.
At the same time, other people dependant on the state will be retarded or will suffer learning difficulties such as severe dyslexia or ADHD.
Although many of the people in the 'underclass' may just be those of below average intelligence who live off the state, the kind of porous definition that it suffers from means that averages drawn from such a grouping, if it were possible to do so in the first place, aren't really very useful for comparisons.
Still, I understand your point, but I don't really see the situation as that much of a 'threat'. There will be people who essentially can't work but still will have children, I'm not quite sure what you can really do about this since if they are lacking in intelligence to the extent that they essentially can't plan their own lives, they won't be disincentivised in having children either. At the end of the day do we just leave their children to die?
I would contend that the real underclass, people who have lots of children but don't have the capabilities to contribute anything to society, is not large. I think it is much smaller than it is made out to be, and there is not much that can be done about it.
I would also add that whilst intelligence is genetic, particularly low or high levels of intellect tend to be anomalies, in the sense that if someone's parent has a low IQ of around say 70 or 80 their children are less likely to share this low level of intelligence than someone with parents who have an IQ of 100.
About the difference between working class and middle class IQ, I confess I don't know exactly but I do know that real IQ differences between groups tends to be small, smaller than many would perhaps suspect... in the range of a few IQ points."
Well I would say it is would be wrong to deny it... and being factually incorrect is an absolute, which Harrythehorse doesn't do, but I wouldn't say it is 'just as absurb', mainly for the reason that variations of intelligence between generations have long been observed. The evidence that height is primarily genetic has been long known and is little disputed, measurements of IQ and what IQ actually signifies however is the matter of more debate.
Where is the reference to the founder of Planned Parenhood in this column? Or is that just a little too inconvenient to bring up?
Add to the stained record the Tuskegee Syphillis experiment and the deliberate infection of Guatamalan prisoners with fatal venereal diseases. At least in the Tuskegee case there were some positive outcomes (though not for the victims).
"HarryTheHorse 10:37AM


You said you would accept that genetics play the largest role in intelligence it there was NO improvement due to enivironment. In orther words you would only accept it if it were shown that environment played no part. That is the straw man that you put up though you now admit genetics plays a part."
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"conservative77

Then prove it. And the best way to do that would be to minimise the environmental factors. Poor nutrition, poor education and no jobs will depress measured intelligence. Therefore pontificating about how much of it is caused by non-environmental genetic factors is pointless until you have eliminated the environmental factors as far as practicable.

And how precisely does the welfare state disincentivise people from having children? The irony of your position is this. That to prove that substantial numbers of poor people are poor because of their genes, you would need a far bigger welfare state to allow us to test that hypothesis.

The 'underclass' is a pretty protean term and changes its meaning depending on the ideological point the poster wants to make. I have see it applied to people who are long term unemployed, to those in long term receipt of disability benefits, none of whom are criminals in any sense of the word. Now you have chosen to conflate it with crime."
"conservative77

OK, I can see you want to play word games here. Let's get back to basics, instead. You allege a genetic component in being poor, that poor people are poor because they are too stupid to be anything else and that this is an heritable characteric. You may or may not be right and we have no way of assessing the significance of it at present, because being poor usually means that you've had poor nutrition, poor education and no work. Therefore to enable us to establish your hypothesis and attempt to measure it, we would need to eliminate as far as practicable such attendant features of poverty to prove that they do not have an impact on poor peoples' life chances.
I really cannot put it any simpler than that."
"I wonder if someone who is never born - a hypothetical victim - can have rights. Do we owe moral duties to potential/hypothetical human beings? How would that effect the way we view abortion? Or mastrubation? Is every sperm indeed sacred?
If someone never existed, how can they be a victim? Please note that I'm not defending racism or eugenics, and I agree with educating people on the subjects.. But the harm caused is to those forcibly sterilised and murdered, not to the children they never had.
Human populations expand according to available resources. One child not born due to eugenics leaves space and resources for another. The evil of eugenics is in the violation of liberties inherent in preventing people having children, not in the fact that certain potential children aren't created."
"Well, I've just learned something, and my opinion of G.K. Chesterton has gone up considerably.
Incidentally, whoever was giving statistics about the abortion of Downs Syndrome babies a couple of pages back up thread: please look up the words 'decimate' and 'literally' in your dictionary."
"HarryTheHorse robi
I have no idea how long my comment will stay as I seem to be getting deleted of ghosted on this thread but I went out of my way both times to say I don't support either racist eugenics or sterilisation. Belief in Eugenics isn't belief in sterilisation anymore than belief in nuclear physics means you believe in nuking countries.
What people do with their undestanding of the consequences of genetics is a moral issue, the actual belief that policies, social norms, wars, etc can have eugenic effects is a fact. It's evidenced in other animals and the science of the genetics which is widely accepted."
Eugenics was the 'cimate science' of its day.
"Interesting piece, which does a good job in describing the wide spread and high main-stream approval of racial theories in most pre-war western societies. Many people these days believe that racialism was promoted as scientific only in Germany.

Same with anti-semitism. Nazi Germany has been an invaluable lightning-rod for the rest of the world - it has allowed us to conveniently forget that such attitudes were remarkably widespread. One can read some appalling antisemitic and racist remarks in all kinds of pre-war literature.

In theory, there is no reason why not. The problem is how one defines 'better'. Today we see the short-sightedness of defining that as fair of skin and hair. But what we don't see, and probably never will be able to see, is what short-sightedness we suffer from today. Who would we pick today as our ideal human?
http://static.tvfanatic.com/files/snoop-dogg-pic.jpg
or
http://sportblog.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wayne-rooney.jpg
or maybe
http://www.musicrooms.net/files/artists/justin_bieber_profile_786529583.jpg
No no, the idea just doesn't fly, does it."
"People's silly definitions of ""left"" and ""right"" have nothing to do with this article.
This article is about people who were sterilised against their will in the USA and a decision taken by one of the participating states (North Carolina) to apologise and pay reparations to the living victims.
There are a million paths that discussion of this article could take without incorporating whether socialism or capitalism were more effective eugenicists.
This whataboutery and weak, pathetic attempts to derail the thread should be highlighted for what they are.
If you are uncomfortable reading about the wrongs carried out in the USA then take a walk or go and throw a frisbee. Don't come on here and make stupid comments about the Europeans were worse as if that has anything to do with the price of bread."
"When can we expect the CiF castigating Guardianistas for lionizing Margaret Sanger?

http://www.blackgenocide.org/sanger.html"
Before we Brits get too smug I believe the "philosophy" of eugenics was born in England in the nineteenth century. It was taken up with enthusiasm by Nazi Germany and parts of the U.S. at a later date but dropped in the U.K. only after determined resistance from libertarians.
"That's it, exactly. But it's not ever even really about intelligence as some kind of universal measure of 'worth'. It has nearly always boiled down to 'those not like us' when the 'us' happen to feel not quite powerful or influential enough -- so they want more of 'us'.
Though, predictably, and fortunately, people are often perverse, and many of 'us' turn out not to be as like 'us' as anticipated . . .
And, of course, it's always with us. What else are many enthusiastically received 'discoveries' of 'the gene for . . .X Y or Z' but implicitly, often, eugenic manipulation?"
"The idea of killing, imprisoning, exterminating, sterilizing groups of people different from one's own idea of perfection is unlikely to ever be of value.
Nor will it ever lack support.
The meaning of Matthew 25:42-45

Is forgotten by all in power.
I regret that I have no belief that the next verse will come to pass any more than the previous one be remembered."
"Just to add some balance here, as I know a picture of a famous capatilist on this website is deliberate and is being deliberatelyused to cultivate a red rag to a bull response with the left wing demographic on here.
The Rockefeller foundation has done lots of good things since it was setup, particularily with regards to tropical virus research, philanthropy and models for public health managment.
I'm sure its involvment with Eugenics at the time was well-meaning and who could argue with the idea of a disease free gene pool? Gene therapy anyone?
Obviously just what the definition of 'disease free' is exactly and who and what methods are used to achieve this is the crux of this argument, but to single out Rockefeller with a headline pic is genuinely unfair, I feel."
"They've been trying that for hundreds of years, and look at the results. Like the Habsburgs, for example.
(I can think of a few extant contemporary examples, but they tend to have powerful lawyers, so I don't think I'll mention any names.)"
"No-one seems to have suggested that there's an inherent problem with the 'compensation culture'.
It's righteous enough to offer financial compensation for moral and ethical wrongs inflicted upon people, as far as it goes (and $20,00 doesn't look as though it'd go very far) but the most effective compensatory act is to promise not to do anything like it ever again.
And I haven't seen that promise."
This article is long on inflammatory language, and short on information. The Evil White People Conspiracy sterilized the black population of North Carolina? I don't know about that, but can assure you that there are still black people in North Carolina today.
"Aren't single mothers who select sperm donors from a laboratory on the basis of intellect/looks carrying on this tradition then?
Why was George Bush attacked for getting abortion out of US aid programmes, but Barack Obama praised for getting in back in again? Isn't any aid programme supporting birth control with abortion really about the case of their being too many of 'them'.
Why in the NHS when money is always rationed is it there are never reports of waiting lists or people being denied abortions who have been told their unborn baby has a disability? Why should a supposed equal opportunity employer such as the NHS being able to carry out those tests?
Why when the euthanasia question comes up, is an astonishing amount of support comes from Labour MP's (but not conservative). How does that affect the allocation of resources in the NHS? Does this explain the sly hidden euthanasia of the elderly,disabled etc through DNR written against patients records in NHS hospitals denying them medical care. The mental capacity act was a step in the wrong direction.
Perhaps this country could look again at what has been happening for years."
"nialect,
The repellent eugenics crusaders were fighting a losing battle from day one. In a few decades time the current white majority in the US will be a minority with the Hispanics the largest ethnic grouping. The country will one day be run by the latinos. Rockefeller will be turning in his grave. LOL.
Yes, the US will finally be reduced to a third world dump by then. Though it looks like it's heading that way at 200mph right now."
"The repugnancy of eugenics is around the power of one group, which believes it is superior to another, then seeking to constrain/ reduce limit the numbers of that other. Abortion freely sought is therefore morally different. It is understood by many to be about the woman's choice around her parenting role over-riding any other choices.Similarly birth control is about women's choices. If eugenists use these ideas to try and limit the numbers of 'undesirables' coming into the world it does not mean that the ideas themselves lack genuine value. My life without birth control would have been very different - I might even be dead in child birth by now.
The field of epigenetics now suggests that very few traits are definitely determined soley by genes - eye colour being one of the few. Rather there are genes which can be switched on or left switched off and its environment/ nurture that determines the switching.
So now I speculate the following -
1. I can't help feeling that any group which believes in its superiority must have underlying feelings of inferiority to even be doing comparisons.
2. My own understanding is that the insistence that lighter skinned tribes are superior has been around for centuries. India's cast system is in fact a colour bar - the higher castes being the invaders from the north and the darker skinned original native indians making up the lower castes. Those invaders were supposedly 'Aryan' tribes and where Hitler got his ideas of the superior race."
"What nobody dares mention is that these same crimes are being perpetrated today in the USA, except that it is now done unoficially by gang stalking groups.
Today, in the USA, you can be stalked, harassed, poisoned and irradiated with the full knowledge of the police and government and nothing will be done.
There are a wide variety of poisons that can be deployed to induce a wide variety of terrible injuries and afflictions.
If this is news to you, just do a web search on gang stalking.
The USA is now a fascist state with a good cover story. Much like any fascist state, there are pockets of resistance but the net effect is the same.
Avraam Jack Dectis"
"_AT_Eccentrix

I was about to post a comment saying the exact same thing. Pretty much any discussion on CiF unfortunately gets boiled down to an argument about whether ""Left"" or ""Right"" is responsible for a particular problem, followed by debates about whether politician X is genuinely Left or Right, or not Left/Right enough etc. No-one has shared, common definitions for these terms (eg some people think Leftism means a government cannot be imperialist, and the Rightism simply means ""nasty""; others think the opposite), so I wish people would just argue about the actual issue rather than try lumping everyone into two simplistic camps.


Unfortunately, I think the CiF's editors essentially gave us all a full licence to indulge in whataboutery when they published an article the other day: ""Animal abuse is bad, but shouldn't you be protesting against the mistreatment ofr old people instead?"""
"Let's not forget that at the time 'eugenics' was science. Let's remember that paradigms do shift and today's theories can finish up as tomorrow's chip wrappers.
And let's not be so bloody certain all the time and let's be very very sceptical of all pronouncements by, and appeals to, authority."
The "convulsive first decade of the 20th century..." bit is ahistorical bunkum. Los Angeles was a village in 1900, Amerindians were at their historic lowest-ever population count---about 800,000 nationwide, the black migration to the North was two decades in the future, and until 30 years ago, Asians were a negligible US population.
Of course, eugenics is back, dolled up in smart white coats and presenting the delightful picture of genetically engineered kiddies. At the same time another shameful idea from the past, the death chamber, is also being tarted up - what better way to dispose of one's disabled or aged relatives than being able to create a positive glow around euthanasia. So, what with being able to produce perfect children, while disposing of economically unproductive burdens, those heady dreams of the last century are about to be realised.
"Don't relegate eugenics , for which Hitler thanked the U.S., to past history. 'Philanthropic' 'Population control' is funded and promoted as part of the U.S. imperialist global domination soft & hard power agenda.
The Human Genome Project and Eugenics
Robert Lederman
Daily Telegraph (London) 7/7/00, Agence France Presse 1/21/99, The Gazette (Montreal) Baltimore Sun 1/22/99, Salt Lake City Tribune 1/27/99, The Times Union (Albany) 2/2/99 D-2,
The Human Genome Project may now open the door to the development and use of genetic weapons targeted at specific ethnic groups. This project is currently being conducted under the auspices ofthe U.S. Energy Department, which also oversees America’s nuclear weapon arsenal....The November 1970 issue of the Military Review article [was] entitled “Ethnic Weapons” for command-level military personnel. The author was Dr. Carl Larson, head of the Department of Human Genetics at the Institute of Genetics in Lund, Sweden.... A biological weapon could conceivably take advantage of this genetic variance and incapacitate or kill an entire population.... On November 15, 1998, the London Times reported that Israel claimed to have successfully developed a genetically specific “ethnic bullet” that targets Arabs. When an Israeli government spokesman was asked to confirm the existence of ethnic weapons, he did not deny that they had them, but rather said, “we have a basket full of serious surprises that we will not hesitate to use if we feel that the state of Israel is under serious threat.”...
""Depopulation should be the highest priority of U.S. foreign policy towards the Third World.""
Henry Kissinger, National Security Memo 200, dated April 24, 1974
Billionaire club bid to curb overpopulation
5/24/09http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6350303.ece
Some of America’s leading billionaires met secretly May 5 in Manhattan to consider how their wealth could be used to slow the growth of the world’s population. Described as the Good Club by one insider, it included David Rockefeller Jr, Warren Buffett, George Soros, Michael Bloomberg, Ted Turner and Oprah Winfrey. Taking their cue from Gates they agreed overpopulation was a priority...a consensus emerged to back a strategy with population growth tackled as a potentially disastrous environmental, social and industrial threat.
Meeting of America's Richest About 'Need,' Attendee Says
Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett Discuss Coming Together 'to Do More'
May 20, 2009—http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7628545
By RUSSELL GOLDMAN and EILEEN MURPHY
Under a cloak of secrecy, some of the world's wealthiest people gathered in an unprecedented meeting early this month in New York City ""to see how they can join together to do more,"" according to one attendee.
Invited by the world's two richest men Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, along with David Rockefeller, a Who's Who of American wealth and influence gathered around a long table in a window-lined private room overlooking the East River on May 5. ""The overwhelming reason for the meeting was need -- that was the issue that galvanized everyone to participate,"" Patricia Stonesifer, senior advisor to the Gates foundation's trustees, Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffett, told ABCNews.com. ""This was a group very committed to philanthropy coming together to see how they can join together to do more.""Gates and Buffett were joined by billionaire moguls Oprah Winfrey, Ted Turner and New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg along with heavyweight philanthropists George Soros and others. Together the attendees have donated more than $70 billion to charity...Though the philanthropic focus of each of the participants differs, many of their foundations have a global dimension. ""Each has their specialty. Gates focuses on world health, [CNN founder Ted] Turner on the environment and the UN, Soros is involved in civic engagement,"" Ottenhoff said.
Between 1997 and 2006 Turner has donated $1.6 billion, the bulk of which, $1 billion, went to the UN Foundation in 1997.
Soros, a fund manager worth $9 billion, gave $1.1 billion from 2002 to 2006 and $475 million from 2007 to 2008. Much of Soros giving goes to his family's Open Society Institute...
Bill Gates talks about ‘vaccines to reduce population’
By F. William Engdahl, 4 March 2010
http://oilgeopolitics.net/Swine_Flu/Gates_Vaccines/gates_vaccines.html

and don't miss Black's earlier article:
Eugenics U.S. Connection
Edwin Black
http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-11-09/opinion/17517477_1_eugenics-ethnic-cleansing-master-race
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/11/09/ING9C2QSKB1.DTL"
"Your conclusion (that the virulence of German, American and various imperial eugenics programmes makes the claim that eugenics was as popular on the left as the right) also doesn’t follow from the premises; unless you can show that the most virulent eugenicists in Germany, American and various colonies were right wing, it doesn’t even begin to refute Zamdolph’s conclusion. Just to clarify: Nazi Germany was probably more extreme-centrist (embodying elements of the extreme left and right) ideology, and there were as virulent eugenicists on the American left and right.


How does this even begin to rebut what was claimed? Sterilisation maybe about as eugenic a law as the state can pass; it isn’t the most extreme measure the state can resort to in the name of eugenics (that would be murder-and the US certainly did not have anything resembling the Aktion T4 programme, as the original commenter said).


I’ve not encountered (m)any historians who view eugenics as playing a crucial role “in generating popular support for the Nazis” so I would have to say that the statement is true. If you’re unsure, then just take it from me, it is.
Secondly, you are conflating two separate (although often connected) things: eugenics and racism. Sure, some racists were also eugenicists, however eugenics was not intrinsically racist a creed. Francis Galton, the man who coined the term eugenics, defined it thus: “the science which deals with all influences that improve the inborn qualities of a race; also with those that develop them to the utmost advantage” (""Eugenics: Its Definition, Scope, and Aims, The American Journal of Sociology, July 1904). That’s about as concise a definition as I can find, and whilst Galton himself was a racist, that didn’t mean that you had to be racist to like eugenics. WEB Dubois and Thomas Turner were supporters of eugenics, but used it to argue for integration, rather than segregation (Gregory Michael Dorr, ‘Fighting Fire with Fire’)
Thirdly, eugenics itself, as a doctrine of improving the human race through either holding back the least desirable individuals or favouring the more desirable, is quite an ancient ideology, and probably predates racism (Allen G. Roper, ‘Ancient Eugenics’ (Oxford, 1913)).
Finally, the popularity of newer forms of racism in Germany prior to the Nazis doesn’t mean that Nazism sprang from these feelings; Fritz Stern has shown that Nazism grew from the voelkisch ideology, which was often opposed to Darwinism (Houston Stewart Chaberlain) and its origins predated “ The Origins of Species” or “Hereditary Genius”."
"""tradition""?
I don't think that word means what you think it means."
"I think that the Americans are worried about charming British chaps like Mr. Khyam, who those silly Brits seemed to think deserves life imprisonment
""At his sentencing, the judge, Sir Michael Astill, described Mr. Khyam as ""the energy behind the conspiracy,"" the man who attracted other young Muslims to the plan, and inspired them, and who knew how to shuttle from Britain to Pakistan for terrorism training.
From Mr. Khyam's own testimony, as well as a cascade of official intelligence surveillance presented during the yearlong trial, a portrait of determination and ruthlessness emerged.
As a teenager, Omar became entranced by jihadist ideology. He moved on to the cause of Kashmir, and was then piqued by 9/11 and the Iraq war, things that inspired and angered other Britons with Pakistani roots. But he in the end turned to attacking Britain, where he was born and raised.
Asked on the witness stand his reaction to 9/11, Mr. Khyam did not disguise his delight.
""I was happy,"" he recalled in his south England accent. ""America was, and still is, the greatest enemy of Islam. I was happy that America had been hit"""
"Mr Hamid should realise that the visa waiver arrangements do not guarantee entry to the United States, anymore than having a visa in either of his passports. Both will allow him to travel to a port of entry where he and any other non-US citizen can be turned away, if the immigration officers so decide.
And in my experience one thing these officials don't have is a sense of humour, at least not while they're on duty, so you're probably already on their computers with a note - 'funny guy - check very carefully'."
"I find a British passport very useful for ID checks.
When security folk, police, post office, airline check-in staff, banks, or whoever - ask to see some ID: even if a driving licence will do, flash the passport.
It identifies you not just as who you are, but also One of Us."
As black chap proudly brandishing my British passport, I find that these days the queue for EU citizen is actually much longer. And when I'm on a work trip with my fellow British colleagues in some countries (no need to mention) I am always the last to get through passport control...mmmh why would that be?
I totally agree. Having lived in this country for a decade, it bothers me that i still have to queue up like a foreigner, although i am one, but i dont feel like one. For this reason and the fact being a british citizen can get you shipped out war zones (Like demostrated in the Israel/Lebanon conflict) quicker than anything. I will be applying for neutralisation as well!
"The whole visa thing is a sham anyway and is in most cases a subtle way for one national government to get at the population of a government they don't like.
My wife is South African and before she acquired her UK passport she knew the queuing situation quite well. The whole system is designed to intimidate and dissuade people from applying, usually by being as inefficient, obstructive, petty, small minded and as time wasting as possible.
Once my wife had her UK passport all the queuing stopped - miraculously. Had she changed as a person? Of course not! was she any better educated, a more responsible person or less likely to throw herself on state benefits? No. The only reason she was being pissed around in the first place was because her Government (who she did not vote for) engaged in practices that other governments did not approve of. If you as a government disapprove of a regime take it out on the officers of that regime, not the people. Visas are simply a childish tit for tat game played by infantile politicians."
"RogerINtheUSA
There were quite a few other terrorists who the silly Brits thought deserved imprisonment also: but they were members of the 'Ra, and American courts had a habit of refusing to extradite them.
Still ... joy in heaven for the sinner who repenteth, eh?"
briscorant, you have just made the case for an I/D card.
"The idea that Muslims cannot be Europeans is one that is championed by a variety of Muslim commentators - Azzam Tamini of this newspaper, for example: "" ""We are Muslims in Europe, not European Muslims.""
The Deobandi cult - which dominates around half of mosques in the UK if media figures can be believed - takes a similar view:
""The nightmare prospect for Islam in Britain is that Muslims will be influenced by these ways and habits - ""this culture, this evil influence"" - of the kuffar. Muslims should beware, because ""the Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with you until you follow their way . . . completely, in everything"".""
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2402998.ece
Most of these Deobandis will be British passport holders.
Your audience's views were no doubt shaped by such Islamic preachers - I'm suspect that you lack the scholarly credentials to gainsay them."
I wonder how many British citizens have applied for a Pakistani passport.
It's also worth pointing out that Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, Argentinians, Russians and countless other non-muslims and generally non-darked skinned people have to join the same long queues to get into the UK.
So is your British passport merely a means to an end to enable you to live somewhere more convenient, and to earn more money than in Pakistan? Do you intend to integrate fully into British socity? Do you intend to renounce your Pakistani nationality, and if not, why not?
"I think the language and imagery in this piece is wonderful, and makes me wonder what TRF might be like.
I think I shall find out.
*DJ dons trainers and tootles down to the local bookshop.*"
"_AT_undead - why should he renounce his Pakistani Passport - would you ask the same of joint US/UK passport holders or UK/SA pasport holders?
If not, why not? Is it because, to quote Ali G 'they is black?'"
What kind if person would want to go the USA?
"""You know the best thing about having a British passport? It saves you so much queueing""
Nothing new under the Sun. Russian poet Majakovsky wrote a poem about passorts. He compared reactionon his Soveit and another man s British passport."
"and stash it at the back of a drawer like a slab of hashish" So the writer knows about stashing illegal drugs then - fully integrated UK citizen.
The 'right' to hold citizenship and passports from two or more countries needs to be reviewed. At a minimum, countries like the UK which allow dual-citizenship must make this contingent on the second country having established a full extradition agreement with Britain. What is really dangerous is the UK allowing citizens of Pakistan to also hold UK citizenship, while not insisting on a full extradition treaty with the Pakistani government. A number of dangerous criminals have used this loop-hole to escape UK justice in Pakistan, and while extradition is possible, it is not assured. Indeed, the deranged scum who tortured and killed 15 year old Kriss Donald in Scotland (2004) escaped to Pakistan before the police could close in. They were eventually returned but only after a lot of back room negotiations and the personal intervention of a local Muslim MP Mohammad Sarwar (he has now announced his intention to resign due to threats he has received from some local Muslims for his role in the extradition). http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/06/22/british_lawmaker_steps_down_amid_threats/1584/
"bluetoffee
Green with envy you are. I have two citizenships. I will keep them both and it is right that this is legal."
Nice writing. Enjoyed your piece. Haven't got time to think about any more than that right now!
"BlueToffee has a good point. Personally, I'd end all join-passport holding, I suspect the people we would lose would turn out to be no loss at all.
As for links with Pakistan in particular, that has brought the UK nothing but trouble, a mixture of criminality and terrorism. Ending direct links with Pakistan until that country reforms itself would be the most sensible move for the UK."
WorldWide: How about the sort of person who meets an American online and decides he wants to marry her (a description that applies to me and most of the British expats I know here).
Fast passport control is one of the goodies that U.K. citizens get from their EU membership when traveling around in Europe. It is often taken for granted by the EU bashers.
"Mohsin --- it would be a good idea to explore and refute those Muslim activists who continually push the line that there is a schism between being Muslim and European as well as hapless Germans at literary readings who were genuinely curious about the themes of Islam and the West. After all, youi have just written a novel about that very theme, haven't you?
The story about the American visas is a non-story --- it's not going to happen, so you can put the hysterical invocation of the status of British Pakistanis on a par with African Americans in the segregated South to be immediately.
Given that, I hope you'll be doing your best to investigate, criticise, and explore the nature of Muslim extremism, the self generated victim complex, the educational and employment underachievment which is largely due to internal structural reasons, and the suicide bombing impulse amongst your British compatriots who happen to be of Pakistani descent."
Born in Britain? British subjects yet they wish to destroy us? And you write wittering on as if all this is a joke? How did all this come about? Something wrong somewhere!
Mohsin: I enjoyed your novel 'The Reluctant Fundamentalist'. It made me proud that a Paki has been shortlisted for the prestigious Booker prize. I must disagree with your assessment of the Visa lines and entering USA. My Passport says that I was born in Jhelum Pakistan) and have no difficulty when I visit USA every year in November for a few weeks. But of course I do not grow a lengthy and demonstrative Bin Laden like beard and my wife does not hide herself in chadar. Your point is well taken, but the fault lies not only on one side. Muslims are getting from conservatives to fundamentalists. More and more people are growing beards and women are hiding themselves from the world in Burqas and chadars. Many pray 5 times a day and spend the rest of the day preaching or discussing Islam. When I go to parties and see how every sentence is linked to Islamic teachings, i ask myself why these people are living here and worst still why unlimited number of them want to enter these infidel lands of Europe. If you see Pakistani TV channels in England man programs are either called Islamic, many others Islam is mentioned anyway. Every conversation is started with Inshallah, Bismillah, All hafiz or Allah is very kind to us. And it goes on and on. Until I get fed up and change the channel to other 'infidel' programs, where I can at least enjoy the evening. Allah may not like that, but I do and that is sometimes more important than brainwashed one track discussions where any word of disagreement may be interpreted as an insult to Islam, Pakistani culture and may be both. Then All may bless your soul, before you run to hide yourself. How would you feel if your surgeon asked you, while you were gowned and ready for an operation, if he could say a quick prayer? Or if your family doctor wanted to take a "spiritual history" as well as medical details on your next consultation? That can happen when dealing with fundamentalist muggins. I am a liberal Muslim and believe there is more to life than just repetitions.
"exliberal -
Well, not quite. I am a citizen of the UK, and another country on the other side of the Atlantic. I hold two passports and have benefited from dual-citizenship. However, I think it creates more problems than benefits to the host nations involved - especially when solid extradition treaties are not in place - and I support a move to ban dual-citizenship."
If someone was of dual Iraqi British citizenship, then should they be allowed to decide which side they fight on in Iraq, or can they fight on both sides ?
What fascinated me the other day when I flew into Washington Dulles airport on a BA flight from London was that the non-US citizens line was all white and the US citizens line seemed predominantly of Indian origin.
"kulkulan, the answer to your question is that many people are fed up with seeing people of other nationalities arriving in the UK with no intention of integrating properly, and race or colour (since you ask and raise the racism issue) is irrelevant. (Trust someone like you to start the discredited and irrelevant racism rubbish).
These people are economic migrants, seeking whatever they can screw out of the UK, with no real loyalty to the UK. British nationality should be about much more than just a convenient passport. And yes, I would ask the same of anyone, whether from Australia, Ireland, the US or Poland, whatever their ethnicity. By all means, get a UK passport, (if you are so lucky to win first prize in life's lottery) but leave your past behind. The same goes for the UK nationals of Pakistani ethnicity convicted of terrosrist offences the writer refers to. They may have been born here, but are no more 'British' than had they lived in Pakistan all their wretched, misconceived lives."
SharifLone, mintersting post, but watch your back.
"I am quite amazed at some of the posters starting with Mr Hicks in the USA who failed to take on board the humour of the article and immediately see this as a vehicle for expousing their pet bigotary.
On a personal level, the UK government has discriminated against me on the basis of my age so despite being here for over 30 years, I am still a ""Patrial"" and not a UK citizen. UK nationality is a bit of a joke when people who have not even set foot in the country can get a UK passport while a person who is half English and lived here since 1972 has to demonstrate his knowledge of the country and level of integration in order, and take an oath of allegience to get UK nationality simply because he was born before 1961. Pity Miss Zola Budd wasn't born in 1956...bah! humbug!!!"
"""people coming to the UK with no intent to integrate fully""
How true. 'Tis an old vexation. The Normans are still largely ruling class after 960 years. When Sampson wrote ""Anatomy of Britain"" in the 1960s it was still virtually impossible to find someone witha French name (Montague, D'Arcy, etc) working in a factory!"
"DaleyThompson - ""If someone was of dual Iraqi British citizenship, then should they be allowed to decide which side they fight on in Iraq, or can they fight on both sides ?""
Erm, I think you will find the Iraqi troops and the British troops are on the same side. The insurgents don't offer citizenship as far as I am aware."
"undead
""By all means, get a UK passport, (if you are so lucky to win first prize in life's lottery) but leave your past behind.""
British migrants are notoriously known for not leaving their past behind. Obviously one must be loyal to your knew country but usually aspects of culture remain for many decades if not longer. That is the story of immigration and that is how it has always been."
"[briscorant, you have just made the case for an I/D card]
A passport is an ID Card, Donge, but one which is voluntary and without the surveillance aspects of the National Identity Register. So why do you want to spend 20 - 30 billion pounds on something that does the same job?"
Sod having a British passport. I'm one of many who are planning to dump their British passport at next renewal and take up their claim to an Irish one instead. The question of a future ID card and the special status of the Irish in the UK has yet to be resolved......
harryhorse, I know you think I'm stupid but I'm not that stupid, If I had an I/D card I would not need a passport as I only go to France. My French nephew comes to the UK on his I/D card. The rest of this post has been deleted by Donge. Harry I'll send you the rest on the Democratic cif, you know where?
It is indeed one of the joys of being a citizen of this country to be waved through most passport control booths not only here in the UK but also in the EU and even other countries - I still expect the local dignataries to show up and pay proper respect to one of Her Majesty's subjects but, somehow, they seem to have lost any sense of respect for our mighty nation...Oh well, it's great to feel part of the human race, anyway...
The trouble is, once you sail through immigration control with your British passport, you then have to wait ages for your bags to arrive. Meanwhile, all the foreigners off the plane gradually arrive and push their way to the front of the carousel. Why, oh why, can't we have separate baggage carousels for Brits?
"October, 1621 Massachusetts
Dangerous white-skinned people, including large numbers of religious extremists known as ""Puritans,"" have been put on the ""no sail"" list. Those who attempt entry shall be detained, then deported.
Southern tribal leaders are similarly denying entry to slave trading citizens of what must be a very foul land indeed.
Those in that land worship a sacrificed god, their rituals including drinking blood and eating flesh. They would steal our lands.
Minimal contact is advised -- these whites harbor deadly diseases."
I've just returned to the U.K. in the early hours of this morning (Monday) - Stansted airport - the queues to get through passport control were horrendous. An utter shambles - people queuing for half an hour including the disabled and parents with young children, nowhere to sit, not even recognisable queues but a seething mass, all of us with British passports. The first time ever my baggage has arrived at baggage reclaim before I did. What on earth is happening to this country?
"A VERY AMUSING ARTICLE: just imagining all those Islam haters wondering how on earth their immigration rules allowed beardos to naturalise. HA! well Islamites, Islamics, Islamists, Islamophiles, Islameastes and so on can sleep easy knowing that the wonderful democracy of the UK will grant them a the coveted EU passport upon satisfaction of a few conditions.
Miskatonic, it might be useful to do some INDEPENDENT research, check out, Fazlur Rahman's tome (Islam and Modernity) for a brief history of the Deobandi educational movement in the Indian subcontinent and an insight into the Islamic backgrounds of the vast majority of Muslims in the UK. Certainly the Deobandi movement is strict, and very traditional, but no different from many other sects throughout the Islamic world albeit no less in need of complete overhaul."
Can I have a EU passport please. A nice Euro blue colour with 12 stars on the front.
usmarine they might be on the same side now, but 4 years ago they werent. Back when Saddam was in charge if a dual British Iraqi citizen was drafted into the Iraqi army they could have been trying to kill our troops. Do we really want citizens who might be trying to kill us ?
I find this post insulting. I get the feeling that you're boasting having beaten the system. And if a British passport is so superior does that make a Paki'ni one inferior then?
"""... reports began to circulate among my British Pakistani friends ..."" Oh yeah, that's got to be THE single most accurate means of knowing which particular laws the U.S. government is proposing.
Of course you and your your British Pakistani friends might be correct. Please cite the proposed law, and where in the U.S. code it is located."
You can buy a house for less than 80k. But why would you want to? The place is full of racists and xenophobes, there are no jobs, there is very little for families, the shops are a joke, the Market Place is a deathtrap, most of the town is ugly as hell, the secondary school is awful and for some reason people keep electing Tories. Really, I wouldn't bother.
I disagree. What we need is thousands of Guardian readers to move in to change the place for the better, though, obviously, March would be an even better choice!
"We need all the Guardianistas we can get to keep the Human Rights flame alight lit first by Clarkson and Godwin-Wisbech's scions.
Also public transport is not poor with a half hourly bus service to Peterborough and to Kings Lynn if you need to escape the local xenophobes.
As to hanging out-what about the ever welcoming Alishan?"
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Wisbech certainly has its downsides, it has yet to unpick the meaning of diversity and the openmindedness of many residents isn't a high note. However, there are some unusual and interesting characters around, unexpected thing happen here (e.g. one of the Rolling Stones' first gigs) and if you're tired of pretention local people are certainly grounded. Whatever you do, don't sell up your semi in London for a quasi mansion in Wisbech and expect to live like minor aristocracy - deference isn't widespread in the Fens.
"Well, rather than reiterate all the positive things I said about Wisbech in a long blog post last year - here's the link http://www.stevetierney.org/blog/?p=1616
Everywhere has its ups and downs. I moved here ten years ago and its one of the best decisions I've ever made. It's a wonderful place to live."
"I regularly visit wisbech and I have always been alarmed at the level of1970s era racism that exists in this dirty and jaded example of broken Britain
it used to be a well known recruiting ground for the National Front, I suspect that if the EDL put up a candidate for mayor...they'd storm to a landslide victory
the crime and social problems here would look more at home in a big city
cheap housing and cheap veg ain't enough to tempt me
Elgoods beer is vile too!"
Have always skirted around Wisbech journeying from Leicester to Norfolk but will now stop off .Having recently found out my greatgrandfather Sam Easingwood hailed from there, born at on North Brink ,Uncle Edwin had the bakery and teashop and one of the girls was a nanny in Peckover House . you have fired me with enthusiasm.
I moved to Wisbech about 20 years and think it's a great place to live. Agreed there's better places, but I've lived and travelled around the UK a believe me, there's plenty worse (who in their right mind would want to live in Peterborough for example?!) Sure the indigenous population gets upset about all the Eastern European immigrants. I think it's because they are so different to the born and bred Fenlanders - ie they look normal and work for a living! A welcome addition to the local gene pool (well, more of a gene puddle really!)
Do you have a cleaner, Madeleine? Or a nanny? Where are they from? Is selling your labour any worse to selling your eggs? Muscle or ovum - what's the difference? And what is so grim about selling your genetic heritage to the highest bidder? What the hell do you think women have been doing for the last hundred thousand years?
MrPikeBishop, what do you do all day? every time I read a comment, there you are, criticising what people have written and winding up everyone else. Do you have a job?
"Interesting article, Madeleine.
Are the waves of people buying other women's eggs really so statistically significant, though?"
Actually, all the American fertility patients I know (and that's quite a few) are fervently grateful that assisted reproductive techniques in the US are not as hamstrung by ideological regulation as they are in Britain and many European countries. Americans can still easily get donor gametes -- all that the British regulation seems to have accomplished is to dry up the local market, forcing infertile couples overseas into "genetic imperialism". And the high prices for Ivy League eggs quoted in the article are purely theoretical. Moreover, in the US there are no ideological regulations about how many embryos can be transferred to a woman's uterus or how many embryos can be created and frozen. These decisions are made on a purely medical basis, which is as it should be.
The people to blame in this are the idiots that can't either a. come to terms with their infertility or b. satisfy their urge to raise a child by adopting one. Just another example of the utterly selfish 'because I'm worth it' culture we live in...
I think most people are missing the point of Madeleine's article. I don't believe she is criticizing the women who donate their eggs, in the same way as she isn't criticizing their selling their bodies. She is criticizing the mafia who act as middlemen in this process. It is the latter who really profit from both these sales anyway. And will you please stop treating the donation of eggs as though it were as simple as donating sperm. It's not. To donate eggs a woman has to undergo an operation, whereas we all understand the simple procedure that a man has to follow in order to donate sperm.
Thankyou Salsabelly, a rational comment! The problem here is not the people in the west, desperate for children (whom I'm inclined to be sympathetic to) or the poor of the east (whom I'm also inclined to be sympathetic to) but the ruthless middlemen (and middle women, I'm sure) who prey on said desperation to make money.
More wondrous logic from the Mahdi. We in the UK have highly restrictive rules that mean a market in gametes does not exist so this leads to the exploitation of the poor of Eastern Europe. In the US, where a true market does operate, there is not the same exploitation. Therefore the solution is that we should have more regulations in order to reduce the exploitation. Anyone else see the fault here?
"I am starting to find you deeply offensive. From your 'my wife makes nourishing filling meals for less than a pound to his constant berating of Lucy Mangan for her stupidity - I think you ought to shut up. " Wonderful stuff reads as though it could be from P.G.Wodehouse or even Oscar Wilde,Thank you Dashing Redhead and pleaase Blog on without explanation Mr PB
Erm, hate to be a nit picker but I had to say I agree with Dashing redhead - I have noticed that certain posters (mentioning no names Dr Gauis Balter and Mr Pike Bishop) always seem to pop up on threads from articles on women spouting on about how it's anti-masculinist and blah blah blah whilst at the same time writing nasty little misogynist comments. For eg: "And what is so grim about selling your genetic heritage to the highest bidder? What the hell do you think women have been doing for the last hundred thousand years?" - Which I believe was MrPB. Well, let's just dissect that comment for an example. For a start, I assume you mean that women have - for the last hundred thousand years - operated by choosing a sexual partner on the basis of his financial assets. You are also rather underhandedly trying to imply that - deep down - all women are prostitues by nature really, and marriage is a form of prostitution which they choose, exchanging sexual favours and babies for financial security - and that this is a perfectly acceptable bargaining system which assures the happiness and fulfilment of all concerned. This is a flawed argument for several reasons: Firstly, until the last century, women were usually not free to choose their own sexual or marriage partners, it was their families (usually their fathers) who did that. This is still the same in many countries. So actually their genetic heretige was being sold by others to the highest bidder. The system of selling women's sexuality, bodies or genetic heretige or whatever is a system which was set up by men, for the benefit of men, so that they would know who their offspring were. By and large females got no say. But this arrangement is not perfectly fulfilling to most women, and they do not prefer this system, which is why our society has changed in the way that it has. Now that MOST women in the UK, have at least the option of financial independence MOST women don't choose a mate on a financial basis but on the basis of looks, compatability, shared interests. There are still some that are swayed by money but I would imagine that their numbers are dwindling. Given the choice, most women will opt for independence rather than resort to selling their eggs or any other part of themselves. I'm not saying you deliberately set out to be misogynist but the assumptions underlying your arguments are a bit dodgy.
Oh and I think that Madeleine Bunting is one of a few incredible writers at the Guardian, and her articles deserve a lot more than snide responses and rudeness. The problem of self-ownership over body has been a heavily philosphically contested issue for at least a few hundred years - let's treat it with respect. There is clearly SOME difference between body and other property - the issue is what that difference MEANS. If you want to argue that women are prostitutes (even deep down), that doesn't actually answer the question.
"Gwasha, we all sell ourselves to thighest bidder - genetically. If we didn't, and hadn't since Year One, we wouldn't be here. I am NOT talking about prostitution.... btw, I really don't think there's anything wrong with selling a kidney. you know in India they go for the equivalent of 5 years average salary - here that would be �125,000.
125K, cash. Lump sum. C'mon - you thought about it didn't you?"
No need for them missiles, save money one big bomb will do it. no troops on the ground no exit plan needed money saved to use on Health care. its economics. Obama is smart He Learns from the mistakes of others.
And they in turn will undoubtedly be accused of racism.
Let them bloody well live with it.
"When will little countries learn, if you are wooed by the US be afraid.
They are the masters of overreaching themselves."
All this ABM clusterfuck could had been quite easily avoided from the very beginning if the US didn't unilaterally abandon previous ABM treaty with the USSR/Russia.. and/or had decency to consult with the Russian government before making stupid aggressive moves and strategic arrangements with the European Russia's haters behind Russia's back. Lesson learned? I doubt it.
I do not understand the rationale behind the statement. Why should it alarm Israel?
"Remember when conservatives were hooted down during the election for pointing out that His ""O""lliness is by nature an appeaser of America's enemies?
Russia will still not help with the Iranian race to nuclear weapons, in fact they are inaugurating it's clone in Venezuela, so what did this genius accomplish if not simply a weakening of the defenses of our allies???"
"Well that appears to send the message that, if the Europeans want the protection of nuclear defence systems then they should at least pay for them (nice little earner for the US).
Can't say that I can blame them when you can't even get some of our European neighbours to get involved in the sharp end of Iraq or Afghanistan and any action is unfairly distributed amongst the English speaking world (no change there then)."
"So we've screwed over the new democracies of Eastern Europe in favour of their former colonial master, Russia, and its dictator, Vladimir ""Ras"" Putin.
In return, we've received precisely 0 from Moscow. Except that we've almost certainly reassured Putin that playing hardball is his best tactic against the West.
If we're lucky, he might support sanctions against Iran that WON'T WORK ANYWAY. Since when did Iran's fundamentalist regime care about material hardships?
Is this really the foreign policy The Guardian's been pining for over the last eight years?"
"It is not clear why Poland and Czhech republic should be disappointed. At least officially, they were all trying to convince Russia that this was not a shield against Russia and that it was not to affect the balance in Europe.
Or was it?
Any disappointment in Poland or Czhech republic expressed about the dropping this plan would only prove that Russia was right to worry."
...everyone else with half a brain will be relieved and delighted.
"JustAl
wrote
Remember when conservatives were hooted down during the election for pointing out that His ""O""lliness is by nature an appeaser of America's enemies?
So Russia is an enemy of America, is that why one of the most important NATO Afghanistan MSR goes through Russian territory.
Its probably well above your head but America needs Russia more than Russia needs America in her War on Terror, how many US bases in that region are dependent on Russian good will."
"Just wanted to repost one very good comment from another related article in Gardian.
polopolo said:

Thanks polopolo, this is very good to know."
"Toward the next (nuclear) world war.
While Jimmy Carter was hurling charges of racism, it may have gone unnoticed that president Obama quietly cancelled construction of the Eastern Europe missile shield. He had previously unilaterally agreed to cut our strategic nuclear stocks by 1/3 rd without equivalent Russian concessions. While the Western Powers languish under self-imposed paralysis, and the US abdicating her leadership position, a search for new centers of gravity must begin. After many decades of international stability the forces of despotism finally have a chance, even an open opportunity, at ascendancy.
Iran will get nuclear weapons. Iran will attempt the final solution. A nuclear war is virtually inevitable. Abdicated strength always brings war."
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"mr Tisdall
what you fail to note is that all of this is shadow-boxing, and has always been.
Since 1945 the US ""committment"" to Eastern Europe has been rhetorical. This was a purely practical matter since a war with the USSR would have cost more than it was worth. Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 were not defended. This has not changed. Georgia and Chechnia were not defended.
The missile defence system you are talking about is a reseach project; despite the concerted eforts of its proponents to portray it as ready it is nowhere near ready for use (I actually remember an op-ed article in the 1980s urging ""Deploy SDI Now""). Besides, since missile defence works by attrition even a fully deployed system would guarantee nothing.
When the US proposed the deployment in Eastern Europe the Russian General staff, who are not fools, knew that it was a political stunt. They also realised that it was a stunt that could serve their ends, they could make counter-poses to serve their political needs too. Neither party actually planned to to make a seriously threatening move against the other. Importantly, the US and NATO have no intention of making seriously aggressive moves into any nation bordering Russia. Grown-up nations don't start fights they are unlikely to finish, an elementary political lesson the Georgian President chose to ignore.
Regarding ""defence"" against Iran; it's still shadow boxing. The neo-cons did get one US administration bamboozled enough to start a poorly-planned war; the resultant learning means that mistake is unlkely to be repeated soon. The US will not start a war against Iran. Iran's leaders, also grown ups who have living memory of a long war, will not start a war against the US. If they are indeed foolish enough to start one it will be ended rapidly and emphatically by the existing forces ot the disposal of the US. No new weapons are needed.
israel's position is the joker in the pack. A small nation has real enemies who are capable of defeating it in a long war. It also has nuclear weapons. It also has border disputes that cannot be readily settled because of the tiny amount of land available. This is a unique conundrum, the books and historical experience are of little value here. I frankly have no idea how one goes about solving this one, but I don't think a theoretical ""missile defence"" changes the picture much."
"Good news. Good for cooperation with Russia, which will help in Afghanistan.
And good for reminding Europe that it needs to stand up and take care of itself."
It is high time to scrap this Bush and conservative republican boondoggle for the profits of the US and UK industrial-military-security complex and curtail animosities with the Russians. This was the senile Reagan's pipe dream and should be buried for a better world. One military BS that the world can do without.
You're misreporting this story. Opinion polls have shown that a majority of Poles and Czechs were opposed to these installations. So I imagine the announcement will be greeted with joy there. When you say it will cause "unease among Eastern Europeans" what you really mean is that it will cause unease among Eastern Europe's quisling governments. Just like the Kurds did before, they learn what America's word is worth.
Obama has made the Czechs rather happy with this one actually - 70% were opposed to the building of the radar in their country.
"gliderpilot :

You must be kidding. These were years of boat-rocking. How many wars did we have in the last 10 years? You do not think that US had something to do with it?

The forces of peace and good will finally have some chance."
So can we now assume that Obamas administration is different to GWBs Simon?
"_AT_gliderpilot

Er, no. He (perhaps graciously) allowed the Czech and Polish premiers to disseminate the news, ahead of a formal announcement. There was nothing quiet about it. It made the newswires straight away, before being splashed across the online news and roling TV coverage. It even made some of the online comment sections, in case you hadn't noticed."
"gliderpilot
wrote
After many decades of international stability the forces of despotism finally have a chance, even an open opportunity, at ascendancy.
well written rhetotik is still rhetorik."
Lets hope this move paves the way for action to be taken against the Iranian regime through the security council.Taking away the need for military action.
"toom
wrote
Can't say that I can blame them when you can't even get some of our European neighbors to get involved in the sharp end of Iraq or Afghanistan and any action is unfairly distributed amongst the English speaking world (no change there then.
You mean that some of our European neighbors are not as stupid as Britain, in that they did not rush head long into a cluster fuck and not one cluster fuck but two cluster fucks. Eight years later still paying out billions, while we clamor for less spending at home.
Just maybe if we were not so stupid that we keep falling for the oldest trick in the book, and keep being told to worry what is happening elsewhere , we may start paying more attention to what is happening at home.
Iran nuclear threat thats been waved around for years, the fact that they cant afford such a system, who cares wave Iran in our face so we dont worry about the bloody rising debt, a very real threat to us all ."
"Far from causing concern in eastern Europe this news will be welcome to populations which have grown weary of playing front line targets in endless cold (and hot) wars.
There is not a rational soul on this planet who does not understand that these missile bases had nothing to do with any real threats from either Iran or (the mind boggles) North Korea! No, they were all about bullying, sustaining a flow of orders for the Military Industrial Complex and bolstering the political fortunes of the crypto- fascists, speculating spivs, ultramontane fanatics and other detritia from the political garbage heap basking in the approval of the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney in Washington.
Norhing could be better for western Europe, or the world in general, than a general house cleaning of 'new Europe's' Old Guard, of Nazi sympathisers, and their replacement by civilised, decent democrats interested in peace and social solidarity.
It would mean an end to the burgeoning arms race, an end to the persecutions of Roma and other easy targets (being driven west for refuge) and, perhaps, a chance for the United States to go home and look after its own problems while Europe could re-examine the idea of building a Community on the basis of neo-liberal economics and the demolition of democratic ideas."
"YEEPEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!
Finally! I finally agree with Obama! As a libertarian I opposed US missiles in Europe - In fact, I oppose US DEFENDING EUROPE ALL TOGETHER- sick and tired of that.
Ok...ok. Now I have to admit that I feel a little sad for Eastern Europe, because they were after all the only NICE Europeans to US during the Bush years. Maybe is because they are the ones who learnt what freedom and democracy is and had fresh in their memory what Communism was...so naturally they appreciate all the efforts to end tyrany.
Instead (new generations of) Western Europeans can smug about it, sneer at America because they have taken our protection for granted and for too long and cant remember (neither care) all the sacrifices that have been done so they can enjoy the liberties and good standard of living they have today.
I dont care the reasons Obama had to terminate this agreement or whatever it was. If the Russians are smiling, it cant be good. But who cares!!!! The important thing is we're out! Now, if only Obama could also dismantle all our bases in Europe and Asia and bring our troops back home, now that'd be really cool!"
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Ah, so you live in the U.S. and are happy that the Europeans won't be protected. I wonder what they think of this ordeal? You even acknowledge that "if the Russians are smiling, it cant be good." WHO CARES?! Ask the Poles and Czechs, and maybe the rest of Europe living under the Russian and Iranian threat now, Notsobright.
So... why are the Russians smiling - according to Notsobright above - Iran is building nukes, China is engaging in power play on the world stage, Venezuela is arming...?
Oh, so you think the U.N.'s Security Council now won't have Russia's or China's veto in trying to impose heavy sanctions on Iran? 'You want a bet?
Just wondering, are you a stand-up comedian in life?
"Notsofanatic
wrote
Finally! I finally agree with Obama! As a libertarian I opposed US missiles in Europe - In fact, I oppose US DEFENDING EUROPE ALL TOGETHER- sick and tired of that.
1) The majority of the populations of those east European countries did not want the shield, but when did any non politician count.
2) Quite a few of those nasty old Western European nations that were so unkind to poor uncle Sam were also stupid enough to get caught up in the cluster fuck that is Afghanistan.
3) America is not defending Europe; she is defending her own interests nothing wrong in that, sometimes those interest co inside.
4) There is no real conventional threat to Europe, no country apart from America has the industrial might resources and force projection.
5) The terrorist threat can be dealt with by our own domestic agencies, we have a long experience of fighting terrorism."
"On the ground here in Poland the feeling of relief easily beats the feeling of discomfort. Ask the people of SÅ‚upsk what they think. Oh, I forgot, no-one gives a shit about them do they?
SÅ‚uuuuuuuuuuuuupsk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"_AT_vansmith
nudnik or not, but unlike you I don't hate general populations of the ""former Soviet satellites"". You, on the other hand, seem to be eager to put them in the mortal danger (nuclear wipe-out to be precise) in case one of your silly American rockets unexpectedly launches from their territory in the Eastern (read Russia's) direction."
"vansmith
wrote
Ah, so you live in the U.S. and are happy that the Europeans won't be protected. I wonder what they think of this ordeal? You even acknowledge that ""if the Russians are smiling, it cant be good."" WHO CARES?! Ask the Poles and Czechs, and maybe the rest of Europe living under the Russian and Iranian threat now.
So they are living under a Russian as well as Iranian threat. Why do the majority in East Europe not want those missile bases, why is Iran interested in East Europe, i though she had enough to worry about at home, on her borders, Israel and America.
Build up non existent threats and then get all scared about it, then get others to be just as hysterical.
Europe is able to take care of herself there is enough European military hardware parked all over the place."
"It's a good decision in itself and also in the signals it sends to Russia.
Mr Tisdall is completely wrong when he compares it to the Pershing/Cruise/SS20 situation. These were medium range nuclear weapons which lowered the threshold of nuclear war and cannot in any way be compared to defensive systems."
It's not like the 'missile shield' would have had any ability to protect Eastern Europe, it's patently obvious to anyone who knows a little about how nuclear war works that the programme had no chance of stopping an ICBM attack for a multitude of reasons, and if the number of missiles came anywhere close to endangering the principle of Mutually Assured Destruction the Russians would have simply built more missiles, it was just dickwaving by the Bush admin that wasted a lot of money for no benefit whatsoever apart from alienating a potential strategic partner that has a shared interest in fighting Islamic fundamentalism. It was a no-brainer.
"vansmith
Didn't Russia just sign an agreement with Hugo in an oil deal? Who needs oil, Venezuela or Russia's Gazprom, Transneft o, Yukos or Luckoil? Don't the Russians and Venezuelans have enough oil of their own? Or was it maybe an arms (missiles, tanks, planes, etc.) deal behind Obama's ass?
You cant seriously think that Russia needs to seek the permission of President Obama in order to conduct its economic and diplomatic affairs!"
To echo OrwellWasRight what threat? Let Israel do itself what it wants others to do and de-nuclearise.
"""vansmith
Didn't Russia just sign an agreement with Hugo in an oil deal? Who needs oil, Venezuela or Russia's Gazprom, Transneft o, Yukos or Luckoil? Don't the Russians and Venezuelans have enough oil of their own? Or was it maybe an arms (missiles, tanks, planes, etc.) deal behind Obama's ass?
You cant seriously think that Russia needs to seek the permission of President Obama in order to conduct its economic and diplomatic affairs!""
The real question is: did Somalia, Russia's most outstanding ally and the only Afrtican hyperpower, grant its blessing on the deal?"
"Capt. Charmingly-Massacre's log, 17/9/2009:
Good man!
Ratchet up the unproven Iran threat and keep shtum about the nuclear capacity and threat of US client states.
The point is not to attend too closely to reality, and keep the general populace off-balance and misinformed. Avoid the excess of truth situation I've referred to earlier in my log. The base-line is that, states that resist Western elite economic penetration commit the crime of an excess of independence.
One back-story is that the 'architecture' of defence against the mad-mullah state of Iran has to change, but I'm wondering if the general populace of the Czech Republic and Poland have not been sufficiently bamboozled into accepting their global responsibility. We need a few more liberal journos to go there and sort them out.
As the 30s verse goes:
You cannot hope to bribe or twist,
thank God! the British journalist.
But seeing what the man will do
unbribed, there's no occasion to.
We need missionary work from our journo corps. A spanking idea, if I say so myself.
Heave to some time and have a spot of rum with me and my officers.
Signing off.
Capt C-M"
"It is definitely the cause of some discomfort for East European right-wing nutcases and the cause of great relief for the absolute majority of Czech and Polish people who opposed these missiles and radar from the beginning. The fact that Mr Tisdal is bothering about compensating disappointed Polish hawks is exposing pretty well his own political preferences.

Similar disregard to the people's will. More than 70% of Ukrainians are against joining NATO. NATO-aspiring President Yushchenko is a lame duck with 2% of popular support."
"""other detritia from the political garbage heap basking in the approval of the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney in Washington.""
The World At One, (a BBC current affairs radio program), gave John Bolton a good 10 minutes for a scaremongering rant on behalf of the arms industries today. Bolton holds no political position in the US but like other neocons such as Gafney and Frum are given as much prime time as they want on the BBC to promote policies which have been soundly rejected by the US electorate. BBC political affairs producers have allowed this to go on for years. I still remember John Bolton on Newsnight screaming at someone for suggesting that an Iraqi truck used for filling meteorological balloons with hydrogen was not a delivery vehicle for Iraqi WMDs. Watch Newsnight tonight."
"_AT_stickie
That's because America's wackjob right-wing think tanks are very media friendly. They make themselves incredibly convenient to media organisations. They can almost instantly produce an ""expert"" to talk about almost any issue. In many cases, they even have their own studio facilities, which obviously makes it even easier for the broadcaster to incorporate their rants into the programming."
"A good move - but what is unsaid is that the real defense the US has against any ""Iranian Attack"" is the revenge the US can visit upon Iran with its current arsenal - which I presume the Iranians understand.
The other point is that Obama should go further and withdraw all US troops from Europe and the UK and let them defend themselves - its about bloody time.
The worst point is that the Russians could feel vindicated by their belief that threats are the best way to get results when you feel insulted or that your neighbours are not giving you ""Respect"" and that it will continue in this way to realize its illusion of being a ""Great Power"" - which is what Little Vladimir is all about.
The Iran problem won't go away and its coming nuclear weapon will have a worse effect on the Middle Eastern States than for us - the Russians and Americans somehow realized the monster they created and managed to control it - perhaps only just - but a nuclear weapons race in the Middle East is bound to end with someone pushing the button. The principle that is still king is that ""the bastard was asking for it"" or ""they made us do it"".
The horrors are yet to come."
Demise of U.S. shield may embolden Russia hawks: http://www.kyivpost.com/world/48823
How often recurring are you, Disaster, every 70 years?
"Cairncross,

How exactly? They're still members of NATO and the EU - what good were the missiles going to do? Explain.

Or, in English, we've avoided a wasteful new Cold War and removed one of the reasons why Russia was reverting to playing hard ball. We're not going to change Putin's personality - we might change perceptions and politics among others in Russia though."
Didn't Poland sign the missile shield deal with the U.S only last year?! How come you think that they don't need it? Is it love for East/Central European countries speaking through you or love and nostalgia for former Soviet Union?
"A good welcome to the real world for the Polish and Czech political elite. I
separate them out because the missile defence plan was not welcomed or supported by a majority in either country. These political cliques in Eastern Europe need to cop themselves on and realise that their old anti Russian rhetoric will not cut much ice these days. The good news is that within the EU they can be allowed to mature politically without having the power to do much damage in the region. That is why enlargement of the EU, despite it's many attendant problems, is on the whole a good thing. If Georgia could be brought into the fold it would also limit the ability of the basket case who runs that country to embark on foolish anti Russian adventures again. Barack Obama is to be applauded for having a little bit of common sense, a commodity in very short supply in the body politic at this moment."
"""That's because America's wackjob right-wing think tanks are very media friendly.""
I take your point BubbaJones, but you don't broadcast John Bolton's 5 star wackery just because it is easily available. In the 1990's the BBC had a scheme in which many of its political broadcasters spent up to a year in the US. Much like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown had to do a year at Harvard Business School so as Fort Langley could have a look at them."
The Obama clique has not abandoned its military threats against Russia, as it still insists on a "proven, cost-effective" missile system on the European continent that targets Russia's security. They still insist that a non-existent Iranian "threat" exists instead of acknowleding that the miltitary build-up is aimed at Russia. The strategy of the Washington ruling circles is to attempt to bribe Russia into helping to strangle Iran just because that country wishes to maintain its revolutionary system and independent existence. But Russia-Iran friendship cannot be undermined by Obama's conspiracies, because the fundamental interest of both countries is to thwart the tyrannical unipolar aspirations of Washington.
"Vansmith;
Why shouldn't Gazprom, Neftprom, Lukoil or any other Russian oil and gas company sign contracts with other oil producing companies for the discovery, extraction, processing and transportation of oil and gas? I presume if you oppose Gazprom's presence in Venezuela you also oppose Royal Dutch Shell's presence in Nigeria and BP's presence in Russia, or is it just that you think the natural resources of developing countries are the exclusive reserve of western powers and their major corporations?
On the other point of Russia arming Venezuela, why shouldn't they? The Venezuelan regime is no more repugnant than that of many countries the West supplies with weapons - Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Indonesia, Pakistan, Colombia, Georgia, to name but a few of the most publicised repeat offenders who use US/European made weapons to assault their own people and their neighbours.
I would have a lot more respect if the Russia haters would just be honest and open and admit that they don't like Russia because Russia is able to resist western power and pursue its own interests, much as we do, even when those interests are somewhat contrary to ours. Instead thay couch their language in appeals to ""Democracy"" and ""Human Rights"" while wilfully ignoring these principles when it suits them. Strangely enough for an article about Russia, this thread has been fairly short on such hypocrisy."
"RecurringDisaster
The real question is: did Somalia, Russia's most outstanding ally and the only Afrtican hyperpower, grant its blessing on the deal?
the real point is that the United States can beat up weak peoples such as the Somalis, Afghanis and Iraqis but it cannot do the same to Russia."
"amcpartland
No Georgia is to close to the border of the Russian Federation; it will have to learn to live next door to the Bear."
"Unless Obama got unqualified absolute Russian support for aggressive actions by the US vs Iran.....he just gave away the store. what a moron.
Russia has ZERO logical reason to oppose the missle shield. It has ZERO offensive capability. (the half whits here on CIF that compare these few interceptors to the nucs put in Cuba in the '50s are equally misguided).
What's next....China declaring US forces in SK or Japan are unacceptable to them....and O pulling out for Chinese support on Iran.....or worse...for nothing.
unbelievable.
He will klusterfuk this country worse than Bush.......and he was the master....
god help us."
Why do you people want to invade Iran so badly? Shouldn't you finish the main course (Iraq & Afghanistan) before moving on to dessert?
"Though...it could have been a master stroke by Bush to declare the plan for the anti-missile shield in Poland (and never actually installing anything) just to have a bargaining chip over Russia to force them to act on our behalf towards Iran....
_AT_wayne28
17 Sep 09, 6:58pm (8 minutes ago)
Why do you people want to invade Iran so badly?
we don't....if Russia and China would help stop their nuc program (which gives them carte blanche to support troublemakers in the entire region).....an invasion would not be necessary.
_AT_ GreenGravyTrain
17 Sep 09, 7:06pm (1 minute ago)
look at a globe and draw the shortes line between Tehran and New York to find out.....ie Warsaw is in the middle.
snickered the guy who did just that....."
It's hilarious to see how deep-down dumb these Americans are - coming on here with their comments about how Europe should defend itself; as if their military forces were here to defend Europe.
"Obama once again reveals he is simply Jimmy Carter II.
It is certain that Putin detects smiling Barry Obama's core weakness, just as Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev saw weakness in the peanut farmer.
Poor Ukraine, Georgia, Poland, Estonia, et al. Putin will absolutely feel free to push them around, meddle in their affairs, knowing Barry either fears them or tacitly admires them."
"BubbaJones
wrote
It's hilarious to see how deep-down dumb these Americans are - coming on here with their comments about how Europe should defend itself; as if their military forces were here to defend Europe.
Bit unfair, this is just the paranoid minority, who thinks that everyone is out to get them, that thinks everyone is looking at them funny or after there missis.
Used to think that the Soviets had bases in Alaska, that China had half a million troops in Panama and Cuba, that there are secret UN bases in the Rockies.
They are always besieged and so any attempt to interact with reality by any American President is seen as weakness or appeasement in there very paranoid world."
"FormerYahooTroll
wrote
Unless Obama got unqualified absolute Russian support for aggressive actions by the US vs Iran.....he just gave away the store. what a moron.
I dare say the bases and the NATO Afghanistan MSR on Russian territory dont count."
There's been plenty of discussions about the proposed missile shield some time ago, and it was proved by opinion polls that many Eastern Europeans weren't in favour of it. Obama has come up with a masterstroke in abandoning this idea, and in making friends with the Russian leadership has demonstrated his superior brain power and sheer wiseness. Putin and Obama are probably equally intelligent, I greatly admire both of them. A superb partnership could be formed if those two were to work together on various international affairs, this seems an excellent start.
"_AT_stickie
That's interesting. I hadn't heard that before. Do you happen to know what the scheme was called or have a link to information about it as I would like to research it some more.
I know many BBC journalists, like Paxman, are members of the British-American project. This, in my view, indicates that they are systematically biased and it should disqualify them from working for the BBC."
As a longtime Ami expat in the CR, I am glad to see that at least someone at the Guardian is capable of noticing the discomfort caused here by this unfortunte decision, thank you Mr. Tisdall.
"In Poland and Czech Republic there were only two opinions:
1. Why the hell are we placing anti-Russian rockets on our territory? Is this some sort of late-Cold War death wish? These people are very relieved and happy today and they are a majority.
2. We need to poke the Russians and show servility to US at any point, whenever possible. These people just lost badly. But if they start shouting belligerent nonsense they will simply confirm that the missiles were always meant as a waving dick against Russia. Most of them couldn'r find Iran on a map, so much for Bushite bizarre claim that these were a ""deterrent against Iran and Nort Korea"".
Point to Putin on this one. Next let us see Ukraine this winter, my guess is that Yushenko won't be president and the whole NATO expansion circus will slowly die down. Saakasvilli will need an extra supply of chewable ties to calm himself down..."
Well, either the Eastern Europe must grow up and mature or have their own enemies and own fights without dragging the Western Europe and USA into a mire. The young men of USA and Western Europe are not sacrificial lambs for the immaturity and bellicose bear baiting of Russia by the Eastern block.
"Gee, I thought that we were not going to take unilateral actions that would upset our allies anymore. Mr. Obama says that this move will make us stronger. Are Russia and Iran our friends now, or do we need to apologize again?
Hope & Change are very confusing.
Pass the tea Neville."
"I have understood it well, I guess :
""defending America´s allies"" = encircling America´s enemies, unless the Russians become maids in New York and give all their oil to west for free, they shall be ""enemies"" .....
I am still waiting for the WDM in iraq and this press expects me believe Iran is getting nukes ?
If it does, why should they not ?
Were you iranian, after what has just been witnessed in Iraq would have sent you a clear message : the west will lie lie compulsively mythomaniac .
Forgive me for disagreeing with all in your article , Mr Tisdall.
Israel has nukes .
the Uk has nukes .
If Iran wants nukes, it has the same right as your country .
Who´s calling the kettle black ?
Your government´s MUST be trusted but the governments of ""others"" can not .
Mr Tisdall, your prime minister has lied repeatedly on Iraq and this media echoed his false accusations - 1 million or more dead - and you still expect me to believe Iran is out for nukes ?
OK, I´ll believe Goebbles next ."
"Uffah, the usual stuff.
Russia is wrong to support the declaration of independence in Abkhazia and Ossetia without a proper Security Council Resolution, but so is the West in doing the same with Kosovo.
I am glad to see that Tisdall now agrees that the energy conflict between Europe and Russia is due to Ukraine's failing to pay its gas bill, not to Russia's attempt to use energy as a political tool. Finally.
I am also taken aback by another of the Guardian's report on this issue, the one where we are informed that we in Europe are affected by Obama's decision supposedly because Iran's mullah will shower on us their nuclear tipped Shahab. BS. BS. Why this fear mongering?
Iran is years away from developing a nuclear bomb and a missile to carry it.
And the mullahs are all but crazy (see Cohen on yesterday's NYT). They know that they will be bombed to smithereen if they just give a sign of firing a single rocket. The mullahs are not that mad.
I would not be so sure about the Taliban in Pakistan or, I am sorry to say, the religious fanatics in Israel."
"This is precisely the kind of change Obama was elected to make. He made no secret of his plans, and he was elected by the US voters to do just this.
It won't please the cold warriors and defence contractors, but it may just make the world a safer, saner place."
"I'm thinking that the people who have commented about this being a bad thing don't realise that the cold war ended 20 years ago and that there are western market based economies, all the way around the northern latitudes now.
Russia's biggest weapon these days is denial of oil and gas supplies to western europe and as far as I can see this anouncement could make that less likely to happen now and this could now be used to lever concessions on those supplies and the prices charged by the gangsters that run these supplies.
Western foreign policy after all is to make sure that there are no threats to our lives. Before 1989 the threat was by annihilation by war. Since 1989 its to make sure we can all still buy DVD players and have cheap flights."
As a longtime English expat in the CR, I am glad that only a minority of Czechs are suffering any discomfort from this decision. A large majority have always been against it.
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A few dissenting voices here is NOT the Polish of Czech majority. There was a good reason why the governments of Poland and Czech Republic welcomed the U.S. anti-missile shield on their soil. That was the voice and the opinion of the majority of people in those countries who know better than apparently you do what it measn to live under Soviet communism. Today, the majority of Poles and Czechs feel betrayed by the U.S. and sold out again to the Soviets. Does this reflect the voice of the "elite" for you? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090918/ap_on_re_eu/eu_eastern_europe_missile_defense_22
No they don't, at least the Czechs don't. I live there, and opinion polls consistently show a large majority against the US base. So Czechs are feeling quite happy today, because they thought it was just one of those things that was going to be imposed on them. Good old Obama.
"You live there? In the Czech Republic? So, why do you say I live there instead of 'I live here'? Are you outside of the country (maybe on vacation in the U.K.) and comrade Putin has allowed you to voice your opinion for once this week?

Unlike the Soviet invasion of 1958? Or, were you not born then yet and are talking about a few Czech snut buddies of yours in high school?

Obama is a young, inexperiencend, incom[petent schmuck. You must be confusing him with your President Vaclav Klaus, my hero."
Typo Correction: Invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring
"Oh, really?! Apparently only in your mind:
REMARKS BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA
Hradcany Square - Prague, Czech Republic
05 Apr 2009
Let me be clear: Iran's nuclear and ballistic missile activity poses a real threat, not just to the United States, but to Iran's neighbors and our allies. The Czech Republic and Poland have been courageous in agreeing to host a defense against these missiles. As long as the threat from Iran persists, we will go forward with a missile defense system that is cost-effective and proven. (Applause.) If the Iranian threat is eliminated, we will have a stronger basis for security, and the driving force for missile defense construction in Europe will be removed."
"I don't say ""I live here"" because ""here"" is the Guardian, not the Czech Republic.
Yes, I was born at the time, and no, I'm not talking about a few ""snut"" buddies, but the two thirds of the population who did not want the base, including your hero Klaus, although he changed his opinion depending on the audience he was addressing."
Dunnyboy, OK, fair, so tell me what will you say and do when Russia now exercises pressure on your country for signing the original missile defense agreement or pressures you economically like they did the rest of Europe with withholding the oil sent to your country via Druzhba pipeline?
"First of all, it's not my country - I'm just an expat who's been living here for 20 years.
Secondly, if the Russian closed down the Druzhba pipeline, the Czechs would just increase imports of oil from the IKL pipeline. There has been a western pipeline allowing imports of oil from Rotterdam since 1996, and it has sufficient capacity to cover all the country's needs."
Is the ambition "ruthless" because they sacked the manager or because he was replaced with a nasty sort? This feels more like a filler drawn from an experience out of which a fully formed article could not be carved. Interesting nonetheless if not quite as insightful and intelligently evocative as your usual gems.
"A fine read Mr Wilson. However, I think the imports make for a more interesting Russian league myself and I love some of the bizarre transfers like Vagner Love to CSKA and Garry O'Connor to Lokomtiv.
http://www.midfielddynamo.com/"
Maybe the coach sneered you off for relying on an interpreter. In 1994 it was barely acceptable to do journalism in Moscow in a second language, and that was when a free press was still getting started. Ten years on and you had better be able to gavaret Russki to work there. Interpreter my a$$.
Reditor - Vlastimil Petrzela is Czech, not Russian.
FK Moskva are my favourite Russian club - my first sighting was in the summer of 2004 when I found myself in Moscow for three days and they were the only club with a game on. I saw them play Shinnik Yaroslavl' - the game was terrible, the goalkeeping hilarious. However I've been back to watch them several times since, and was more than a little irritated by Oleg Blokhin's appointment. I second the thought on his relationship with Isaac Okoronkwo. I find the "team of imports" comment slightly erroneous though - 3 or 4 of the Russian U21 side play for FK Moskva, and their first team is usually at least half-Russian, with Oleg Kuzmin and Dmitri Godunok in the defence, Sergei Semak (he of the ultimate "impulse buy" at Paris St Germain) patrolling the midfield with Pyotr Bystrov, and Roman Adamov up front. Maxi Lopez was a hilarious signing, but he's done well, and Pablo Barrientos (a less heralded Argentinian import) has real class. I'm debating whether or not to put my scarf in cold storage until Blokhin is dispensed with, which might indicate to some that I have too much time on my hands. And you know what? They'd be right. Finally, I love Torpedo/Streltsov stadium. It's brilliant - an utter anachronism when most Russian stadiums (Dinamo, Petrovsky etc) are soulless lookalike bowls, and it's going this way in England too. Torpedo, on the other hand, is unmistakeable.
Mr. Wilson, you might have been there at the beginnings of then FC Moskva, but you are not exactly up to date on current events. Do you know that the current backers are different and more diverse than those you've named and that they are one of the most progressive clubs in Moscow, with a strong community link, youth development programme (far better than the money laundering Spartak or CSKA) and 2nd only in their scouting network to Zenit (who receive huge amounts of money from Putin's siloviki). This is a shameful article, one that seems to have been churned out to meet a deadline, and to follow up on a slight at Oleg Blokhin, and the details surrounding the dismissal/resignation of the previous coach were more to do with arguments over a bonus payment and contract for the next season. Please, like your previous article on Dinamo Zagreb, get your feet on the ground and speak to those in the club. (I've dealt closely with FC this past season and am speaking from inside experience).
"""This is Blokhin, you may remember, who protested against the foreign influence in Ukrainian football with a racist rant (on which subject, I was taken aback by the support many posters expressed for him last week: I have regularly in this blog criticised the knee-jerk condemnation the west often has of the east in matters of race, but once anybody starts talking bananas and trees, it has ceased to be a matter of relative cultural values).""
Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if I were you Jonathan, you should've seen the vast majority of comments on Cath Elliott's piece on golliwogs the other day. Unbelievable."
Ammypam: He doesn't speak Russian? Who would hire a coach who doesn't speak the local language? Well, besides the FA ...
Petrzela might speak Russian, I don't know, but since he isn't Russian and Jonathan Wilson isn't Russian, why should they have to speak Russian just because they are in Russia? (Unless it's the only language they have in common.). Wilson covers a lot of countries, I doubt he can speak all their languages. Lots of people hire coaches who don't speak the local lingo - Hiddink at Russia for one. Robson at Barcelona, Porto and PSV, Venables at Barcelona, Ranieri at Chelsea...I could go on.
This discussion about "managers speaking the local lingo" is screaming for a gag about English managers who can't speak English properly. I'm fighting the temptation, much like that bit in Dr. Strangelove where he tries to throw a Nazi salute before grabbing his arm and wrestling it back into position....nnnnggggg....no....can't....PETER REID!
Back on topic, if it's also taken into consideration that FK Moskva's squad also contains two Belarussians and three Moldovans, countries that only 20 years ago provided players for the Soviet national team, I don't think you'd really call them a "patched-up team of less than stellar imports" anymore - especially as clowns like Mariusz Jop (I recall a particularly painful reacquaintance this summer watching Moskva play Samara on TV, where Jop gave Samara a goal after 90 seconds) are kept on the bench. Still not happy about Blokhin though...
"oliver kahn as the mother teresa of german football conjures up some very disturbing images of kahn in a white sari providing succour to the poor and ill of calcutta.
for someone who does not follow german football and only sees it in the champions league, the fall of bayern seems very dramatic.
they have so many good players. so i hope for their sakes that they can recoup soon"
"What happened to Werder Bremen? Beaten at home by Schalke? Schalke are now top of the league aren't they?
I'm bored of Bayern."
It's Scahlke Title to lose now they played so well at Bremen and was really impressed with Lovenkrands and Lincoln. I also saw the Nurenberg 3-0 against Bayern Munich goals this morning on Eurosport 2 and for the first what the hell was Oliver Khan doing.
nice story, shame that you had to start it with a xenophobic attack on the English. As I live here in your, admittedly, lovely country, I have a cupboard full of examples of brutish German behaviour. Your lot dont need to be drunk to push women and kids out of the way to get on a bus.
To add icing to the schadenfreude cake HSV is where they belong. Last.
Another good article, Ralph, thanks - written by a witty German no less - stereotypes will never cease.. cheers.
"Some reporting about the other teams in the Bundesliga would be nice too, for example another former great, Mönchen Gladbach, who also has struggled endlessly and is in constant turmoil.
Bayern are boring.
However, your articles remain interesting. Thanks."
A sharp and engaging piece. Does Hitzfeld have plans to give Podolski more playing time? I see he didn't make it onto the pitch until the second half.
good to see a key G14 member on the slide....I hope they don't qualify for the CL! www.globalfutbol.com
Bayern's problems are just beginning. Hoeness and Rummenigge will have problems surviving any prolonged downturn - and even more so any serious questions about how much money there really is left in their famed accounts.
"good to see a key G14 member on the slide....I hope they don't qualify for the CL!
Yes, and even better when you see the state of PSG - they are nearly in the relegation zone. Big problems for this insidious cartel."
A foreigner living in (lower) Franconia, the impression I have is that most Bayern fans come from the Bavarian and Franconian countryside, and that most Munich people side with the Lions (1860), triggering my own personal nickname for this remarkably unsympathethic club: FC Bauern (peasants) München
"No doubt this questioned has been asked before but would someone help my confused mind?
Why is Bayern Munich in English a mixture of German & English?
Why is it not called Bavaria Munich or simply just the German Bayern Munchen?"
"Although bayern seem to be well off the title, the bundesliga is so weak it's still stupid to write them off completely and so early (sad to say but its true). Both Bremen and Schalke are capable of slipping up (that was Schalke's first convincing performance in months). And Stuttgart are currently third - I mean with that squad - no-one would be surprised if they finished mid-table.
If Hitzfeld gets bayern's defensive shambles together (de Michelis for Luzio maybe) and Makaay and Pizzaro get some luck, they can still be in with a shout; they still have to play Schalke, Bremen and Stuttgart. Their problem is obviously the need for attacking midfield player but a few Dr. Merk and other ref decisions could help there.
I want them to lose as much as anyone - love to see the arrogant bastards in the intertoto. But, as some are doing on other blogs about Chelsea, its too early to write them off cos even when they're not in form they still have better players (defenders and strikers) than the others and can raise their game."
"Germany playing in Nike. Doesn't really fit at all now does it? I hope they stick with adidas, but then 40 million extra euros a year speaks a different language. Adidas should up their offer. After all adidas is inextricably linked to Germany's football history. They helped Germany to their first World Cup victory with their screw-in studs... ;-)
_AT_Berlinerbob: ""Xenophobic attack"" That's a bit harsh -- where's your sense of humour. Or have you been in Germany for too long :)"
"""There is a lack of arseholes in the squad,""
- I like that explanation. Unless they have one dominant arsehole, every great team needs a few arseholes, of which the supporters can think: Well, they may be arseholes, but they're our arseholes."
"""There is a lack of arseholes..""
Hoeness a monster arsehole, Rummenigge a huge arsehole, Beckenbauer another huge arsehole and Henke (assistant coach) is the biggest of em all. Then you've got Kahn, Luzio (bet he doesn't wear his ""jesus loves me"" T-shirt anymore - mote likely a jesus f***in hates me"" one), de Michelis and von Bommel himself. How many more do they need??"
LikeaBeer - I bow to your knowledge of BM & arseholes ;0)
Arseholes always play well when it's squeaky bum time.
When you've got Schweinsteiger who needs Arschlochs.
It's always a crisis when you're s big club and you drop points for a while, but saying the bavarian club's hegemony is falling is abit dramatic. Even if they are the most arrogant, they always fly the german flag in the champions league, and are still the most competetive of the german clubs in europe(which is more than can be said about german clubs fortunes in europe).
While not a total bunch of bums, some of the Bayern squad aren't all they're cracked up to be...
Bayern could still be a surprise in the Champions league. For me the most interesting tie is Bayern - Madrid. two giants of football with great history but having relativly poor seasons. I can't wait. Bayern took 4 points off Inter and looked pretty good. Don't write them off yet.
"And FCB are not in the least arrogant. Fans (and the club itself) are renowned for the good humour and open-mindedness they display when they play in Franconia and elsewhere. They may spend 90 minutes singing about the ""farmers"" and ""wretches"" people from Nuremberg are but that would never influence the opinion of people in Franconia or in other parts of Germany.
7 points in the first three games of the year. 4-1 at home to Stuttgart, 0-0 away to BM and now 3-0 against Bayern. An article that mentions the miracle of the past year ... but it´s not an article about FCN."
Once again an excellent article by Honigstein. I honestly ask myself whether there are any better articles about that topic in the German press. Well, I haven't found any yet. Thumbs up!
Great article, illuminating the vital off-stage action. The Bayern club structure cannot be helpful in a crisis; witness the frowning countenances of the seated Olympians as the camera pans from on-field debacle up the stands towards Zeus Beckenbauer at the apex, how can mere mortal managers/trainers suffer this scrutiny at the best of times, is Bayern the only German club with this old boy hierarchy ?
Reynoldinho, they ARE called Bayern Munchen in German. In English, since we call the city Munich, just that part of the name gets translated.
"Thanks Raphael, for this piece. For once someone is commenting on Nurnbergs rebirth and giving credit to the quality of their football. Makes me sick always to read about Bayern and Hamburg, while nobody seems to notice that another club with a long tradition is on the rise again. Why is that?
Excellent, professional managing, probably the best coach in the League and a bunch of good (and since they were all rather young and unknown when they came) and not too expensive players.
As a Spiegel comment this week stated: Hans Meyer (the coach) is the best, but he is East German and doesn`t fit in with the old boys clubs. Amazing, that none of the big clubs has ever tried to get him."
I'm sure Ballack is laughing himself stiff, especially after the uncalled-for attacks from BM management in the press regarding his move to Chelsea. Guess it wasn't such a bad move for him after all.
that van bommel comment is hilarious! how come in england they always blame the ref or manager? its a shame that the transfer window has gone, if van bommel had noticed earlier, maybe they could've gone in for robbie savage? bayern have been fading for a good while now, but it seems that they keep coming back to the top, whereas the other bundesliga clubs seem to burn brightly for a short few years and then drop away again. disappointing to see HSV doing so poorly, i thought they'd made some good signings in the past few years.
What happened to a Martin Demichellis? I don't see him playing very often. The quality is still there. I believe they just need some strong signings. They also made a mistake by selling Frings who could have been influential in the absence of Ballack
"Good article, Raphael. Rumminigge is really a comic: Bierhoff is not impartial cos he represented Nike, and Adidas owns 10% of Bayern! Just another case of the Bayern München double-speak - do as we say, not as we do.
Yes, maybe Van Bommel´s comment was not all that wide of the mark. When Bayern was in its pomp, it had such arseholes earlier on as Beckenbauer and Sepp Maier and later Augenthaler, Matthäus and then Effenberg and Kahn. When the going got rough, these guys were strong enough to turn the tem around. And today? As Raphael points out, now that Kahn is on his retirement lap, there´s no-one of that calibre left.
As for quality at bayern, well what is there is either now too old, such as MaKaay, Lucio, Sagnol, Scholl (who is retiring) and Salihamidzic (who is leaving), or out of sorts, such as Schweinsteiger, Demichelis, Ishmael and Lahm, or just not good enough, such as Van Bommel, Van Buyten, Ottl. And as for Podolski - Bayern took Germany´s brightest young star and made a poor substitute out of him. Most pundits here reckoned from the start that he wouldn´t fit in there and they were right. Podolski is the type of player around whom the team should fit, not the other way round, as at Bayern.
However, the demise of bayern München could prove to be the blessing in disguise some of the other German teams have been hoping for. Opening up the league away from Bayern can only be good for the development of teams such as Schalke 04 and Werder Bremen as European competitors."
"duncan23 said: Unless they have one dominant arsehole, every great team needs a few arseholes, of which the supporters can think: Well, they may be arseholes, but they're our arseholes.
We pray at that same church in Boston.
BerlinerBob: it's not all about you, but stay thin-skinned, it's healthy.
Nice column."
Don't write Bayern off too soon. The Bundesliga is pretty weak and achieving third spot is easily within their grasp. They can't win the league every year. Also, Raphael, when you're saying that many of England's games in the summer were exciting, which games are you actually referring to? In my (English) opinion, England played the worst football of the tournement, absolutley dreadful!
"MisterLady" clothing line as a sponsor? What is with German clubs and ridiculous sponsors? Wasn't there a club some years back sponsored by an ice cream manufacturer, that had "Mister Softee" emblazoned on their kit?
"Easy-Credit-Stadium really does not get to the fans hearts here. It will forever be the Frankenstadium.
Re the sponsor: Please let me correct this: it is a fashion chain called Mister and Lady-Jeans."
"Hi everybody,
Thanks for blogging, keep it coming. I promise some non-Bayerncentric blogs in the future.
Grievesie: I was being ironic. I had the misfortune of following England (professionally) in the summer, can't say I enjoyed it too much.
roxane: I understand they used to call themselves ""Mister + Lady Jeans"" to be precise, but recently they have replaced the plus sign with a dot and made it ""Mister.Lady"". Probably in an effort to appear to internet users, who knows?
see http://www.mljeans.de/html/pages/de_sponsoring_nuernberg.htm
All the best, Raphael"
Nice one Raphael. IMO describing English fans' behaviour can hardly be described as xenophobic. In my experience they are a lot worse than described here. But then the English just don't understand humour if it's at their expense. That's you berlinerbob.........another winging pom. We have enough of them here in N.Z. I enjoyed seeing Germany play at the World Cup......devoid of their usual cynical tactics. Long may it continue.
"The only thing we should be doing with the UN Refugee Convention is renouncing it, or at least modifying our signature so it only has the power of an advisory declaration. Not all countries are parties to the convention anyway, India, Thailand and Guyana aren't. It's an out of date legal instrument made for a very different world to the one we live in today.


A culture of disbelief is necessary to counter a culture of deceit on the part of many asylum seekers.
The country isn't in any position to worry about asylum seekers right now. We're an overcrowded country that is struggling to maintain its current standards of living without worrying about interlopers. Such lofty concerns are only things that ivory towered champagne socialist academics can afford to worry about. There are plenty of other countries they could try their luck in."
_AT_TheGreatCucumber - should that not be Little Englander?
_AT_NorthernGrandma - If you like. After all, England especially (And the UK in general) is a little country with limited and dwindling resources. We have our limits.
Shutting out asylum seekers? - don’t be daft - all they need to say are the magic words "I WANT ASYLUM" and they’re in and once asylum seekers are in here it’s virtually impossible to get them out - even when they have been legally informed they have neither the legal or moral right to be here. Asylum seekers and their supporters use every dodge, every tribunal, to delay their appeals, they cause the backlog and the part remedy to solving the ever-growing backlog is to shut out all future asylum seekers, genuine or not.
"_AT_Angus McKay -
Hello Angus McKay. I've come across your posts about asylum seekers before, online. You continue to display a complete lack of knowledge of the asylum process and how it works. It's ok to have an opinion obviously, but yours are based on utter nonsense and ignorance of the asylum process. I doubt you have the faintest idea of how asylum applications are made and considered, how appeals are made, how legal representation and legal aid works, and the reality of claiming asylum in the UK."
We have enough home grown social problems right now, we can't import more at this moment in time, sorry but time to be selfish and put Britain and her people first for a change.
The government needs to make a firm stand against asylum seekers who are abusing the system the come they have children and are expected to be taken care care of with out contributing to the system. they always think that once they have a child or children there is no way of the government as any way of getting to leave here. they want to be provided with house and and all the trappings that you can get from the system. i would like the government to do a count of all the asylum seeker who are pregnant or have children since been here. there is loop hole here that is needed to be plugged. The problem of the taxpayers should be solved before trying to solve those of asylum seekers. it seems that their needs take priority over others in the society
"I find this sort of remark about eastern Europeans plain nasty. If this woman wants girls at the checkout in Tesco and English strawberries on her plate then eastern European labour is necessary.
She is the sort of person who doesn't question that English people can go where they like and do what they like but the moment they hear a foreign accent on the high street they are up in arms for no reason at all. Have the immigration in Bulgaria delay her for five minutes on her holiday and she would be blowing her top.
Bigoted is right! Full marks Gordon Brown! I actually find it quite quaint that he did use the sort of potty language we are told MrTony often used in private."
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"She's just saying with millions of people in this country think - that immigration has no controls. Is Australia bigoted for only allowing anyone except skilled migrant workers in? No of course not, that's just silly.
She may not be especially articulate or have put it in the best way so of course someone like you can spit on her delivery but what she is saying is reasonable. Brown revealed his true feelings, not to her face mind, he would never do that.
Don't try to spin this into something 'refreshing'. She looked genuinely hurt and betrayed, a lot of other former labour voters feel the same way."
my omission: did not use the sort of potty language
Mneh. It's only as big an issue as the press will make it. If he'd called her a "bigoted old witch" it would have been different, but "bigoted" alone is perfectly acceptable in polite conversation and isn't even on the list of Official British Swear Words. It's a shame the aftermath was handled badly. Still, it'll probably provide some material for a nice scripted joke on Thursday's debate...
"Alternatively, if farmers and supermarkets paid decent wages, British people might do these jobs.
Today's farmer is yesterday's plantation owner. Probably."
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"Whatever Gordon Brown said it is hardly earth shattering news !! ......In the hysteria of an election campaign I would like to remind Mrs Duffy and indeed the British People that our Westminster system of government allows the people to vote for the ""party"" it believes has the right values, economic responsibility, social contract to carry this country through to the next election... and ideally ... beyond . This aping of the American presidential system we seemingly have embraced is a distraction as to what the three major parties stand for . The party elects the leader .... and we the voting public elect the party representatives in each electorate. We already have a head of state!.. The Queen.
So whilst Gordon Brown might not be everyone's cup of tea.....; it would be trite of people to change their vote, because of a remark made in reaction to, a possibly, bigoted remark!
As for the reason eastern Europeans and other nationals are doing here ? well they are filling the jobs that British will not do!
Why are we in economic dire straights? because we rid ourselves of manufacturing and decided to become an nation of Bankers and financiers investing far to heavily in the US property market , without responsible regulation.
These are some of the questions the British public need to meditate on before they head to the pollings booths on 6th May."
"Whatever Gordon Brown said it is hardly earth shattering news !! ......In the hysteria of an election campaign I would like to remind Mrs Duffy and indeed the British People that our Westminster system of government allows the people to vote for the ""party"" it believes has the right values, economic responsibility, social contract to carry this country through to the next election... and ideally ... beyond . This aping of the American presidential system we seemingly have embraced is a distraction as to what the three major parties stand for . The party elects the leader .... and we the voting public elect the party representatives in each electorate. We already have a head of state!.. The Queen.
So whilst Gordon Brown might not be everyone's cup of tea.....; it would be trite of people to change their vote, because of a remark made in reaction to, a possibly, bigoted remark!
As for the reason eastern Europeans and other nationals are doing here ? well they are filling the jobs that British will not do!
Why are we in economic dire straights? because we rid ourselves of manufacturing and decided to become an nation of Bankers and financiers investing far to heavily in the US property market , without responsible regulation.
These are some of the questions the British public need to meditate on before they head to the pollings booths on 6th May."
"David, I wrote a piece for the Guardian a couple of years ago about the nervous breakdown I had as a teenager and I used the ""n"" word you find so offensive to describe myself and my fellow inmates. See here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/feb/11/mentalhealth
I can't see what's wrong with the ""n"" word myself. I think if we are a bit mad, or once were, we're entitled to call ourselves what we want. It's when the sane use mental illness as a way of attacking others who are sane that it annoys me. Another words, it's fine to be a bit mad. It's not fine to use it as an insult.
I don't think this woman is a bigot and I think she's entitled to express her views on immigration. Calling her names won't help anyone. I also think Gordon Brown is entitled to express his views and since this is clearly what he felt, why apologise?"
I think people want a more grownup approach to politics, and less of the "yah-boo-sucks" they see at, say, prime minister's questions. Being free to say what you think, without worrying about "gaffes" all the time, should be part of that. Of course the media are as much to blame as the politicians for treating people like children
"It seems that all we can have now is a boring, sanatised politics where everybody is PC and has to mind their P's and Q's. They will be so afraid of offending that they will end up saying nothing.
That said, Brown should have called her that to her face and not behind her back. It was two-faced. Whether it will drastically affect the Election outcome is open to question. Labour seems down to it's core vote anyway."
"Of course the media are as much to blame as the politicians for treating people like children
Word David."
"Of course the media are as much to blame as the politicians for treating people like children
Word David."
"OED: Bigot; a person who is predjudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others.
Rochdale the birth place of the Cooperative movement, Gracie Fields and the best rag puddings in Lancashire.
And on the 28th April 2010; Gordon fucks up. Goody."
"Already sick of seeing this woman paraded back and forth on BBC news.
I find it much more abhorrent that a Tory MP could refer to homosexuals as 'not normal' than Brown calling this woman a bigot."
"_AT_Hens Wear Hats - Unfortunately being as we all want cheap food anything over minimum wage will cut into the food chain's profits and then we'll have ""business"" telling us that the sky will fall on our heads. I don't know if you saw those Evan Davies documentaries, and a Newsnight section, as to what would happen if the immigrants all went home but they were quite illuminating. There seems to be a real problem with large sections of our workforce, the truth is if you decide that school is for fools and qualifications aren't important if you're going to be famous then you can't be surprised when the only low skill jobs available are being filled by educated people looking for a foot on the ladder. When I was younger I worked throughout the time I was at University, I had a small grant but I had no desire to take money from my folks; I worked in factories, warehouses and supermarkets doing extremely crap jobs - I'm not writing this because I'm some kind of saint but there were loads of those jobs around then, there aren't now. In those documentaries the people offered jobs, in place of immigrants, turned up late, didn't perform at even a low level of expectation and then didn't seem at all prepared to accept any kind of management from foremen or managers; when asked to work in a better way many of them threw wobblers and sloped off to have a smoke because ""he's doing my head in"".
Eastern Europeans are legally allowed to be here, increased our productivity and get the job done."
FIFY!
"drabacus; interesting point re the checkouts and strawberries. Now that this has been brought home to me I do wonder just who would we get to pick our fruit and whizz our groceries through the checkouts if it wasnt for the steady supply from Poland and Rumania and all points east.
My local Asda is staffed 99% by Asians; why can't we have some of these eastern Europeans down here and why does Rochdale have a monopoly on them?"
Clegg using 'nutters' was unacceptable, and he should have apologised. Although perhaps Iain Dale should be having a word with George Osborne, who recently referred to Labour's economic policy as 'the politics of the madhouse'. It would seem that breaks the terms of the charity agreement too, and would be no less offensive to people with mental health problems.
I find it amusing that we in the U.S. have the same sort of people.I for one find it refreshing when someone; especially a politician speaks their mind.
I have just listened to the audio of this incident and to be fair to Gordon Brown, the woman did sound like a bigot.
I don't think anyone uses "nutter" to refer to people with acknowledged mental health problems any more.
"The woman was called a bigot because she is one. How simple does it have to be?
Unfortunately there is a good chance this election will be decided by Sun readers who believe the Murdoch."
"If the supermarkets had not formed a cartel to drive down farmers' income, they might be able to afford to pay decent wages.
The 'bigoted woman' is part of a generation that grew up in a white Britain surrounded by white people. Because of immigration, that has changed and, not feeling comfortable in the company of people with a different culture and speaking a different language in public, she doesn't like it and doesn't want it. As this generation dies off, the 'bigotry' will disappear and won't be an issue for the younger generations, who grew up in a multicultural Britain and feel comfortable with it. In the meantime, just show some understanding for how she, and many like her, feel."
"Seeing as this is a language thread, I'd like to discuss language.
I regard myself as English, because I am white and my native tongue is English. England is my ethnic origin, I am not White British because British cannot define my ethnicity. Where's the British language then?
There isn't one. Therefore there is no British ethnicity, and on this issue I agree with Nick Griffin when he says he will put a stop to the myriad of forms that define me as White British. I always insist that they put me down under 'Other' and write English.
I am also British because Britain is a structure that encompasses many different cultures and languages. For me, there is no multiculturalism, there is only one culture and that is British culture which is inclusive, tolerant and acts as an umbrella for all its different attributes. That is the great strength of Britain which binds us together and it is the multicultural PC brigade who are undermining it."
"overit

What for? It would regard it as a compliment. It is English nutters, who come up with crazy ideas and who are mad enough to see them through who have made this country the intellectual powerhouse of the world.
Don't knock it. Loopiness is our greatest asset."
"LauraMarcus
If you wrote for the Guardian, you should have a prefect's badge like all the other ATL contributors."
Well. I don't know about anyone else, but I've always felt pretty certain that Gordon Brown isn't a robot, he is a human, and he has human attributes like beliefs and emotions and all that. So then why is Twitter and the media up in arms about him expressing a reaction? Yeah, it wasn't the most graceful of moves, but was anyone under the impression that the PM must automatically like every person he comes into contact with? If you harbour and express any opinion, someone is bound to take issue with it at some stage or another. I can't figure out why this fact has come as a surprise to the lady involved, and everyone else reacting so wildly to it.
"Saying ""that was a bigoted opinion"" is a fairer comment rather than calling someone an actual bigot.
One comment is not enough to pigeonhole/condemn someone."
If we treat our politicians this way for speaking their minds on rare occasions, then we have ourselves to blame when they do nothing but talk 'on message' all the time. We really must all grow up and stop blaming them for giving us what we ask for.
Typical Brown -- didn't have the guts to call her a bigot to her face, smarmed all over her and then let fly when he thought he was safe. Brown hypocrisy, par for the course, shows the contempt Labour politicians have for the proles.
Maybe she was bigoted. Where's the gaffe?
"Englishhermit
The British language is Welsh -- the English are illegal immigrants -- which is doubtless why they get so worked up about immigration."
"I'm surprised that no one has asked the question why not one of the many aides warned Brown about the mic still being on. What are they paid for if not to ease every angle of the campaign?
Sabotage from within? Would it suit some ministers for Labour to lose, get rid of Brown, elect a new party leader , and stand back and watch somebody else sort out this financial mess . . . . ?"
Cameron wouldn't say it, 'cause it wouldn't enter his head. Brown should've told her to fuck off
Brown was correct. Who is this lady to complain about my Polish builders? They saved me a fortune compared to my Irish builders. And I never heard anyone complaining about the Irish coming over and taking British jobs before the Poles arrived.
"""Bigot"" is not such an offensive word. It means intolerant, or narrow-minded, and it seems from this woman's comments that she is intolerant of foreign workers, rightly or wrongly. If he had said ""idiot"", that would be offensive - ""bigot"" was just his opinion. I suspect that in his position I would have said worse.
Bad luck Gordon. Made me smile though.
_AT_oldgroaner
And you would never say one thing in public and another in private (oops, not private after all), of course!"
"Cathyrelf
I'm not a politician and so don't parade a bleeding heart when it might be profitable."
"_AT_ herandu
yeah, the irish were well received by the english. i suppose that's why i can remember, as a kid in the 70's, seeing signs on pub doors reading ""no blacks no irish no dogs"", or my irish aunt being completely ostracized by her english co-workers when an IRA bomb hit london, though to the best of my knowledge, she never even owned a balaclava. open arms boys, open arms..."
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Calling somebody a bigot just sounds like an opinion to me. There is no harm in that. Politicians having opinions seems like a good idea. Yes, even if they are negative ones. Being all smarmy and then saying something behind her back - it isn't nice but we have all done it. Brush over it by saying it is human or honest but what it really highlights is the ridiculous pressure politicians are under to say the right thing and not what needs to be said (or done). I'd rather have somebody like Brown calling it like it is as PM than a vacuous twit like Cameron or a media savvy wordsmith like Clegg. Getting caught is a cock up though. He'll never escape that one.
"In all honesty, he didn't say anything out of turn. Potentially he should have seen that it would be taken out of context by the media, but the statement itself is harmless enough.
Nice to see the usual UMC lefties trot out their crap about how pathetic the British workforce is and how they NEED foreigners to do their work for them.
I'm currently working on a rejuvenation project in haringey, barnet. Very rich area. East european nannies, italian gardeners, polish builders and working class decorators. Then these same UMC lefties sit there and talk about how OTHER PEOPLE can't work for a living. Luckily your husbands can ay!"
"This in a discussion of the use of the word 'bigot'.
I'm actually one of the graduates (Durham) forced into manual labour because of the pathetic job market in this country. Wages in this country are too low. It is that simple. People aren't lazy, they simply understand basic maths. 160hrs of work for 800 quid...or no work for 700 quid. Hmmm, can you lot do the math on that?
Business is driving this country and your children into the ground, and all you can think to say is how lazy british people are and how you need foreigners to come and help you wipe your own arse."
"The press has been waiting for weeks for someone to make a balls-up - I wonder who won the sweep-stake.
Anyway, more insightful would be a comment on the rather short tone he took with his Aide, and, of course, the stupid apology. Makes him look weak and foolish, and suggests he cares more about what we think of him than being in the right."
The whole thing seems to confirm the enduring power of tragic irony: that the man who approved the David Cameraon/ David Cameraoff campaign should be caught out. Gordon /Gordnotoff. Nice for Gillian to have her day in the Sun.
I won't be voting Labour, but this whole Bigotgate thing is completely overblown media bollocks. I'd rather have politicians say what they really think than being media trained robots. The big loser today was not Brown, but the journalists. They took their eye off the ball when devoting their attention to one single word that supposedly symbolised a character flaw (it did no such thing). Instead they should be focusing on issues, issues and... more political issues.
"Herandu
I'm old enough to remember signs in the windows of rooms to let featuring the legend, ""Room to let - no Irish."" This was during an era of disparaging comments about 'jobs, homes, wives etc,' being taken, from the English.' There's always a scapegoat for economic and social ills. One day it will be the Martians."
"The more I see of the British hustings turning into an animated HM Bateman cartoon, the more grateful I am that I left. We've all been in the situation Brown was in yesterday: listening to an ill-thought-out diatribe, and out of deference, or caution, held our tongues and let rip afterwards (or you have if you're a well-brought-up coward like me). Brown's [main] problem is he's surrounded by callow nincompoops, who should currently be having new ones torn for them by a real-life Malcolm Tucker.
blotto, you're right; during the [ahem] boom, over here in Ireland (as in Britain) eastern Europeans (and those from further afield) were welcomed with open arms, as (degrees in architecture or dentistry notwithstanding) they were prepared to do the jobs that the [ahem] natives wouldn't countenance: the jobs that entailed dirty hands or wet feet. Boom now having bust, they're being pilloried either hogging those jobs or, God preserve us, taking their loot back home.
The irony is Mrs Duffy wasn't miked up. What were her first private words after the confrontation? We've heard her self-righteous blather and wounded amour-propre when a microphone's in front of her face. What was she saying in the queue at the Co-op?"
"Again according to the OED definition the word bigot is not specific on racial intolerance.
I thinks this is relevant also.
'Bigotry may be roughly defined as the anger of men who have no opinions'
G.K. Chesterton.
About covers so much from all sides of the political spectrum; politicians and voters alike. Dyed in the wool party loyalties by definition are not reliant on opinion. Blind faith or simple tribalism suffices."
"_AT_Herandu
""And I never heard anyone complaining about the Irish coming over and taking British jobs before the Poles arrived.""
God bless your innocence."
"_AT_wingpig

I disagree. You could apply the same logic to the word 'paedophile', which along with 'bigot' is something you should only label someone if you can demonstrate that is what they are.
Gillian Duffy may be a bigot, but on the other hand she might just be someone concerned about immigration who doesn't have the eloquence to express her views in as educated a manner as Gordon Brown and his University of Edinburgh education might. I don't think a conversation lasting a couple of sentences is enough to determine which."
Storm in a teacup. What I would like to know is who recorded the PM's private remarks and then released them to the media. Whoever it was knew just how damaging the incident would be. I am unfortunately unable to vote in this election, having lived outside the UK for more than fifteen years. If I could, I would be voting LibDem, as I have done in previous elections. The injustice of the FPTP system of voting has never been more obvious. For a party to win the majority of votes but to secure a small fraction of seats is manifestly undemocratic, and many people are beginning to realise that.
I've never liked Brown so I'm glad to see him get his comeuppance. Sod the lot!
"If someone is a bigot, a politician saying so won't stop me voting for that politician, but that isn't really the point, is it?
I am a Labour voter by instinct, but GB in the back of his car sounded like Louis XIV holding a scented kerchief to his nose, hoping to keep the stink of te unwashed at bay. ""Which of you minions brought me into contact with such a person? What were you thinking of?"".
Just continuing the Louis XIV thing, he also sounded like he had ventured out of Versaille for the day, totally out of touch with the concerns of Labour stalwarts in (dare I mention them) the provinces.
Then there was the rictus grim while he explained that she had accepted that he had misunderstood her.
If he had said it to her face and told her she was wrong, that Poles make a valuable contribution to our society (which they most certainly do) and had it out with her, then fine and he would at least have looked like he had the courage of his convictions. But to bitch about her in the back of the car just makes him look so bad in so many ways.
Mandy must be suicidal....."
"The detail that everyone is skirting around what this (probably very decent un-predudiced) lady actually said is ""All these Eastern Europeans, where are they coming from"". She then asked ""where are they FLOCKING from?"".
It was the use of 'flocking' and its links with swarms and an implied sense of being over-run that suggested bigotry in GBs mind, and mine too."
"_AT_LordSummerisle
Not quite the same logic; being a bigot isn't a criminal offence, and I've heard of someone being sacked for idly using paedophile as a term of friendly insult (though there are far more appropriate words to idly use as friendly insults and more appropriate systems to use them on than work email). Brown described Duffy in a way which might be taken to be insulting, but not using a term which is a standalone insult. He didn't append any additional descriptors to make it unpleasantly personal."
"Let's put this whole thing into perspective:
Mrs Duffy made public her opinion about immigrants, rightly or wrongly.
Gordon Brown made a personal comment about Mrs Duffy, rightly or wrongly.
Neither of them have much to be happy about.
Had Gordon Brown questioned Mrs Duffy at the time, he'd have been accused of berating a pensioner, a woman, a labour supporter etc. He didn't and let the moment pass.
I'm no supporter of Gordon Brown, but get a grip people. It's nothing more than storm in a tepid mug of tea. Move on to more serious topics."
"_AT_henswearhats
As someone else has said, the supermarkets have acted in concert to drive down the cost of food by squeezing the farmers; the farmers therefore can't afford to pay the levels of remuneration that most brits expect. Besides, you won't find too many brits that want to pick potatoes, especially when the dole is so much easier.
_AT_englishhermit

Nope. There are several; English, Welsh, Cornish and Gealic to name but four; there were others, but these have died out..."
Anyway, back to the point; I'm not a fan of Brown, but at least he expressed an opinion. I would much rather see people in power who have an opinion than those who vacuaously spout whatever crap will cause the least offense...
Is Gordon expressing bigoted views about bigots?
"my initial reaction to this non-story last night was:
anyone who has ever worked with the public will almost inevitably have made comments about them out of earshot; that doesn't mean they don't still do their jobs well and serve that customer (for instance) to the best of their ability.
it really means absolutely nothing."
Someone's just asked where we would stand if a politician called someone a loony ... Fine, so long as they are a candidate for the Official Monster Raving Loony party ...
An extraordinary number of 'bigotgates' in the paper today. Ridiculous
"Dale saying Clegg should apologise, sounds plausible. That is, until you read what Dale's great friend Guido Fawkes says about Brown:

About a clear a bit of mental health bigotry as you can find, yet Dale doesn't criticise his friends and so he stays silent."
"For most people the primary worry isn't immigrants working, it's the one's who arrive in the UK without the slightest intention of working who piss people off.
However, that doesn't alter the facts
Building sites have been full of Polish builders across the UK, that building work would have been done with or without the Polish workers. There may not be enough British people with the skills to do those jobs, but providing a cheap skilled workforce doesn't give employers much of an incentive to train people up to do the work. I personally know a joiner and a plasterer who told me about the problems they had finding work once the influx began.
Or we could look lots of specific examples, like the bus company UK North that employed 100 Polish bus drivers on the cheap. Again without those drivers the buses would have still been operating, with British drivers.
There are in fact thousands of examples and anyone who bothers to look is able to see them. Legrain's juggling of numbers proves nothing, and the everyday experience of people in this country proves him to be a liar who will distort the statistics to suite his own political agenda."
"Please can someone explain how this works in more detail?
Show
a) How non migrant workers spending their wages would not create the same number of jobs.- What is the proportion of money sent home by mifgrant workers compared to the full amount spent in the economy by non migrant workers.
b) If some jobs are ""created"" because they are willing to work long hours for
very low wages doesn't this mean that they are either in non-jobs, or creating wealth for the job agency and company paying them. If a job exists it carries a fair wage. If it exists and carries a fair wage then non migrant workers compete with migrant labour. Unemployment is currently exploding all around us.
If the central premise of Legrain's article is that migrant workers create jobs
through their activity and this is flawed , then he doesn't really have a support beam to build the rest of his argument on.
So what is the nitty-gritty truth of this?
I'll come back later and show you the wages and conditions some migrants work in . Maybe we can work out an average ratio between migrant wagehours and indigenous."
"Yes, but Moses Brown has a cunning masterplan in all this.
Blame the Americans for the economic crash, blame Pakistan for terrorism and blame the immigrants for the rising unemployment figures.
As long as he can keep blaming people, he thinks the finger will never be pointed at him.
Is it still true that half the poplation of New Britain would like to emigrate to somewhere else - some free country - if they could?"
"Probably not.
Are they driving down our wages? Probably yes, or bosses' organizations wouldn't be so keen to have them come here. I suspect that the availability of surplus labour helps hold down training needs as well, to the detriment of established residents."
The meat factory in my town used to be a career for some people, now every Uk person who leaves is replaced with a cheaper immigrant. My girlfriends brother has been unable to get a part time job yet when i was young it was no problem. The government itself has even admitted that immigration was good to suppress wages. you can pretend all you want that but telling lies when people have experienced otherwise is never very successfull.
"Just because the number of British people employed went up, that does not prove that immigrant workers have not taken jobs that would otherwise have been filled by British people. Unless you know what the level of employment and unemployment would have been if immigrant workers had not taken those jobs, you can't prove anything either way using the statistics that you quote. Also, unless you examine in detail how the statistics are calculated, you shouldn't draw any conclusions at all. It is far too easy to manipulate statistical data for it to be at all reliable as a source of evidence without close scrutiny.
There is one way that you can test whether immigration is creating as many jobs as there are immigrants, or just increasing the number of people chasing the same number of jobs. You can look at the rates being paid for work in the trades that they are being employed in. If you do this, you will find that those wage levels have been either flat or reducing. This indicates that they are taking jobs that would otherwise have been filled by British workers - wage rates improving to the point at which people are attracted into those jobs."
"So what is MigrationWatch's view on the hundred of thousands of people who have left the UK to work abroad? Including himself. Wasnt he once the British Ambassador to Saudi Arabia?
And then what about the countries from where we drain off their qualified people? When we have a shortage, we appear to have no problem or qualms whatsoever encouraging them to come and settle here. For as long as we need them that is."
"What a fatuous article. I am all for Polish people coming over and doing my plumbing on the cheap, but to suggest that I would leave my toilet leaking into my hall is clearly bollocks. Of course they are taking British people's jobs. Those British people might not want or be able to do them but that is a separate point.
There are winners and losers to immigration.
The winners are the immigrants, arable farmers, businesses, people who want their house cleaned and plumbing sorted on time and cheaply.
The losers are the people who would have done those jobs worse for more money."
"Nonetheless it is quite damning that despite our recently-ended economic boom and all that talk of educashun, educashun, educashun, Labour's secondary school leavers had less chance of finding a job than at any other time in history. Unemployment among 16-25 year olds was, and is, disproportionately high.
Where I believe the government has failed is in the poorly managed flow of low-skilled EU workers into the UK whilst low-skilled indigenous workers have struggled to get work and now will struggle even more.

Couldn't agree more. I still have heard no rational argument as to why there are thousands of people of every nationality enjoying a life in the UK funded partly or entirely by the taxpayer.
While I know that there are many legitimate asylum cases in the UK whom I do not begrudge helping, I find the small number of immigrants who come here and seem to do nothing except commit crime and enjoy benefits utterly galling. I expect I'm not alone either."
"thanks for this article..
skimmer

surely the central premise is that MigrationWatch were wrong in their assertions. As evidenced here :

Tom x"
Migration Watch are extremists who support compulsory ID Cards and the database state. I'd trust them about as far as I'd trust Ian Huntley on matters of child care.
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"Blitzdonkey said:

Please provide a link for that as I find that very hard to believe?"
"Thank the lord for immigration and cheap labour. I mean all this time in the UK no toilets were ever cleaned, no fruit ever got picked, no buildings ever got built and buses well they never moved as we had no drivers either.
pakeezah....the difference to your irrelevant point is that a British person cannot go to another country(other than the EU) unless they fulfill the criteria that country needs, A skill in demand or enough money to support themselves and all their dependants, whereas the UK has allowed mass migration of mainly unskilled labour to do menial or semi-skilled work thus putting all the indigenous low skilled out on their ear coupled to actually allowing benefits to be claimed by said migrants. As for creaming off the 3rd worlds doctors, nurses and pharmacists etc etc it is morally wrong that a rich nation can't be bothered to train its own population and then cherry picks the poor countires of the world after they have paid to train their own people.
Mass immigration does nothing for the host population except for the employers who love the supply of cheaper labour and it constantly amazes me that Labour voting people support this immigration as it directly opposes the working class native population."
"youcantalan
Never heard of NEETS?"
"I seem to remember that in a previous post you yourself 'twisted the truth' so much that it was no longer recognisable - claiming, amongst many other things, that the Paris Metro wasn't overcrowded.
Clearly nothing that you say has any merit at all, and should be dismissed without a second thought.
You're a bit like Blair - when you say something, we immediately know the opposite is true. So - hats off to immigration watch for getting it right.
Oh, PS, refer yourself the the House of Lords committee who concluded that immigration has a negative effect on the economy."
Wages, wages, wages. If there are more people competing for work then wages are forced down. What we have at the moment is a low wage and high cost economy. Economic migrants are prepared to live in cramped accommodation because they aim to save up and/or send their money abroad. Benefit claimants can get better accommodation on the state and thus have to earn more to maintain their standard of living and make it worth working. There is a false shortage of labour caused by housing and benefits policy. Without immigrants wages would have had to rise substantially or the benefit system reformed. The present economic malaise is partially due to the long term effects of wages insufficient to cover high living costs.
"philippe
you have on numerous occasions been put to the sword on these boards for your risible pro-immgration ramblings. must you persist in this folly?"
"Tom : Show us how ; the process by which migrants create jobs which would exist if they were paid a rate that would allow for the economic survival of an indigenous family. Do you think it morally right (even) that workers should come to our country and take home, say £8.70 pw ( yes, that is pw) after deductions?
Also by relying on this cheap imported labour and not investing in skills training we deny a generation of our own people the means to find skilled work , which would lift them and their future families out of poverty. So this jobs being created thing seems to me to be down to price and has a longitudinal dimension that is not being measured here.
BeautifulBurnout:
Only as long as the rights of those women in the workplace ( who genuinely want to be there) remain unenforced, and bind eye is turned to their situation.
How many women have no choice but to work for next to nothing in the hidden economy to get some extra cash? Often to pay bits of debt- so they actually get nothing for those hours worked.
and,
Only as long as Women are forced out of their homes into workfare style programme in the first place. We could have workers at key points in infrastructure to enable groups of women to organize their own labour and sell it directly, rather than going through rip-off job agencies.- Why don't we? maybe because there is no political will to create such posts within the infrastructure
because the economy as a whole has addicted itself to cheap , disposable labour.
There are many things that have to move forward simultaneously for any positive change to happen for any of us. Whilst cheap imported labour can be picked up and used , all of us , including them suffer .
Nice to see you here BTW."
"The employment rate for UK born workers is the most broad based stat for looking at this kind of thing. It's the best one to use because it steps around a lot of the definitional fiddling that goes on. So between 2004 and 2007 we had largely ""jobless economic growth"" for UK born people. (75.6% to 76%)
[As an aside that 0.4% is 175,000 jobs, which isn't bad, but spread out across the whole country, it's not that good, especially when we know more people of older than working age are having to supplement their pensions with extra work.]
Anyway, there are a number of possible reasons for this ""jobless economic growth"", but you have to do more analysis than Philippe has presented here to conclude that immigration in that period is not a contributing factor."
"What utter nonsense
Up until Dec 5th I worked in a local factory which has a workforce approx 40% East European.
On Dec 5th I was laid off (I was a 'Flex' i.e. Temp) and told to return to work in January. The Polish, Slovaks and Czechs who are employed on Full Time contracts were not laid off.
The simple fact is that were the East Europeans not here I would have secured a Full Time contract and avoided being laid off.
Today I get a phone call from my former employer telling me not to bother going back in Jan cos there wont be any job for me.
I am now out of work (in a recession) because the government of my country has encouraged people from all over Europe to come here.
An Immigrant has got my Job ...
'New figures reveal that immigrants are not taking British people's jobs'
what a crock of crap"
"The office of national statistics are a government run organisation with its own agenda and who now believes any statistics put out by the government - not even the governments own appointed watchdog vis a vis recent statistics on knife crime. It doesnt matter what you say it is peoples own experience that matters, many people know of workplaces with all the UK born people laid off and the cheaper immigrants kept on.
As for calling migrationwatch xenophobic and prejudice this is another attempt at limiting free speech and attempting to make people frightened of even talking about immigration."
Well, really it depends on which immigrants you're talking about. Funny how all those 'immigrants' from Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and the United States in jobs for which there is a plentiful supply of British graduates go unnoticed. Don't tell me that there aren't enough qualified and experienced British graduates for these roles, particularly medics.
"qwerty99666
I am not sure where you get the idea that all migrants to this country are entitled to benefits. It is simply not true but why rely on facts when it can be used as a convenient war cry to cause unrest amongst us ""native"" people.
It may be worth remembering that one of the the biggest causes of our problems today were the policies of the Thatcherite Government. Free markets, greed, and the demise of our own national industries have cost us jobs and a secure future."
"I don't trust either Migration Watch or Phillip Legrain to tell the truth. Both appear to have agendas that have nothing to do with the well-being of ordinary workers.
I am not anti-immigration but I find it irksome that Legrain is apparently paid real money to write rather shallow articles. Couldn't they get a minimum wage Pole in to make the same points?
For example the claim that "" Immigrants don't just take jobs, they also create them, as they spend their wages"" is plausible sounding, but is really little more than the sort of handwaving stuff we could come up with ourselves, for free. It's not as if we haven't all heard that argument a million times before. It's pro-globalisation economics 101.
Surely to justify a blogger's fee it should be necessary to actually crunch some numbers, taking into account the fact that a large proportion of New European's wages (and child benefits in the case of those with children back home) are not spent in this country at all, but sent back home. This would imply they are creating jobs back in Poland, whereas if those jobs were filled by British workers the money would be spent here creating jobs here. Set against that one could speculate that the Poles are somehow working more efficiently than the Brits would be, and that some or many of those jobs would simply go unfilled without the immigrants. But to know what the real net effect on jobs is, surely requires more than this vague hand-waving stuff that the blogger pumps out?
The mere fact of total 'indigenous' employment having risen of course doesn't answer the question unless we know how much it would have risen or fallen by anyway.
I'm not expressing sympathy with the agenda of Migration Watch, but simply asking for better articles, ones which actually tell me something new. There's only one new fact in this blog, which could have been expressed in a single sentence, that the ONS statistics appear to contradict Migration Watch's.
In any case, it appears we only kept employment up by an unsustainable increase in personal and public debt."
"I don't know what's worse? The xenophobic propoganda of MigrationWatch, or the stealthy neo-liberal propoganda of Legrain? Could any side of the political divide put immigration 'control', in a positive - dare I say it - progressive light? It is not about race - though for many on the right it is - but about re-asserting national economic sovereignty. Something that Conservative and New Labour governments have become comfortable with eroding.
We are fed non-stop lies about the 'realities' of globalisation. The nation state must step back, we are told. Those who disobey, will be punished harshly by global market forces. Yet recent events - like the 'nationalisation' of large parts of our banking system - suggest that the nation state has still had power all along.
The nation state - and to a lesser extent regional (but not global) supra-national institutions (like the EU) - still remains the best way for political communities to dispense political, economic, social and cultural rights to human beings. Real progressives, should not only believe in the sanctity of these rights, but also the overarching national framework that protects these.
Globalisation is not natural, but man-made. The G7 powers, IMF and World Bank are the main causes of mass migration. Their economic orthodoxies have decimated certain countries. I believe in the right to migrate, but its only made possible by creating conditions that assert the right 'not to migrate'. Given the choice, us humans are a sedentary lot, and prefer to stick to our roots. Re-asserting the economic sovereignty of nations - from Third World to First- over industrial and social policy, regulation, and taxation - is what's needed."
"There are rwo effects I would like Me Legrain to explore further. They both concern the credit crunch and worry me. First if I lose my job and decide I will take anything, if I am blocked by a migrant how will I feel?
Secondly when it comes to redundencies who does an employer keep.. The indiginous worker or perhaps the better qualified more willing (cheaper) migrant? Not to put to fine a point "" I foresee rivers of blood.""
For the record my wife is Chinese and has been here less than one year by a day."
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"This subject, also rises inside some large countries. The impoverished Indian States of Bihar and U.P. which are badly governed, cause many to migrate to more prosperous states. This has resulted in residents of those states, rioting, and demanding the migrants return home.
Usual reasons given, taking jobs, crime etc. Perhaps it is a perception, that too many ""Aliens"" in one place, create a disturbance, which affects the familiar feel that enables a sense of belonging, being a local.
That sense of belonging has been ignored by social engineers, and many neighbourhoods have been taken over by foreigners, in such numbers, in such a short time span, that many streets are virtual no go areas.
Those like the writer who want ever more immigrants, are democratic, but appear to reject the will of the majority."
Immigration causes unrest and should be banned. One Nation, One Voice, One Mind.
"You know what - I don't trust any of these figures. Jacquie Smith had to apologise yesterday for cooking the books on knife crime. The statistics bandied about to promote smoking bans, global warming scams and crime initiatives have been so demonstrably flawed that any bright child could see through them.
Migrationwatch uses figures provided by the government, albeit presented differently. I don't believe them any more. But I do believe my eyes."
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"Julie- didn't a major chocolate factory near you ""outsource"" most of its work recently? What impact has that had on your local economy and the ""feel"" of the city. Does it matter if they shift production to another country , or bring labour in here, from that country, and take our jobs?
Good luck with it all."
Now where have we heard that before? Oh yes, now I remember: Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!
Cheesymonkey- Woman's just lost her job to a migrant. It's Christmas, maybe she's got kids, bits of debt. How do you think she's going to feel?
"It's rather simple really. If it's a cheap-labour problem, which it largely seems to be, give us back the basic trade-union rights that Thatcher destroyed and new Labour has continued to deny.
That would include the right to take ""secondary"" action against companies that sack workforces and then hive off bits of themselves to ""separate"" companies paying lower wages to do the same job.
When the Irish unions took action against Irish Ferries for employing cheap east European labour, they made it quite clear: you're welcome to come over here, but only if you work at the rate for the job and don't undercut existing rates. And they were able to back it up.
problem solved, but it also involves standing up to the piss-taking stupidities of the European Court (see the Laval case)."
"cooluke
Thatcher has been out of power for nearly 20 years, in that time all of her policies could have been reversed but NOBODY except the hard left were advocating it. There was a reason why Labour were unelectable for 18 years.
I didn't say all migrants can get benefits but I know that many do such as child benefit. There has been a great scam going on for a while involving Polish workers getting paid child benefit here for their children who are actually living in Poland."
You can say that again! Thanks for this Phillip!
"Here's a fact for you:
We have net immigration in the UK, ie more people enter than leave.
What's happening to these people? They're either working or claiming benefits. Let's assume that they're all working. Legrain's argument must be either that a) all the jobs they're doing are new jobs, ie jobs which their very presence creates, or b) that they're doing work which wouldn't have been done otherwise by Brits.
Now a) can't be right, because one extra person can't equal one extra job, at least not unless the immigrant is very rich. So b) must be the answer, or at least the answer Legrain would like to give. In fact it has long mystified economists that despite a growing economy wage costs, particularly at the lower end, remained relatively static. So the BoE got Prof David Blanchflower to do some research on the subject. His conclusion was that immigration was keeping wage inflation down. The larger the pool of labour, the less pressure on employers to compete for staff by raising wages. It isn't hard to understand how it has happened.
Funnily enough, the CBI has always been pro-immigration.
Funnily enough, I remember seeing a Polish woman interviewed on the telly a couple of years back, her speciality being finding accommodation for immigrant workers. She said that in Blackpool the following summer there would be 15,000 Poles working in the town. Some of them, she said, would be working illegally for less than the minimum wage. From an employer's point of view, what's not to like?
A while back the Government released figures which showed that over half the new jobs created since 1997 had gone to people born outside the UK.
It is a great tragedy of ZaNu Labour that more long-term unemployed people could not be tempted off the sofa and back to work. Why did it happen? Partly because the differential between benefits and wages was not greater. The opportunity has now been lost, and generations more will fester.
Yes, there are many racists who oppose immigration. Similarly there are many idiots who are in favour of it because it gives them a feel-good buzz and because they haven't thought through the economic, cultural and environmental issues.
Funnily enough, many of these people, like Mr Legrain for example, also get very hot under the collar about static wages of the low paid, igoring the fact the many of the lowest paid in the UK are British Asians and blacks.
One day Mr Legrain and his ilk will put the two phenomena together, but I'm not holding my breath."
"""I've had 12 jobs since 2001""
From what you wrote and the tone of how you wrote it that fact really does not surprise me Cheesymonkey."
"sackyouremploer
""Don't tell me that there aren't enough qualified and experienced British graduates for these roles, particularly medics.""
Uhm yes there is a surplus of UK trained medics all trained at a great cost, I read once it costs around 250,000 pounds to train each one, but they have to compete for jobs with all EU doctors as well as others from around the world. So the USA, New Zealand, Canada and Australia will get the benfit of many of those we have paid to train.
Not a particularly sensible or efficient state of affairs really"
"Juliefromyork- If you have time , could you describe the impact of the contraction of the jobs market in York.- Maybe have a wander around the market stalls and ask the stallholders if they have noticed any decline in trade since Nestle shifted production to Germany? ( Do Germans employ Polish/other workers at a lower rate as well?) Did it have a knock on effect?
BTW was in York last year- spotted this guy sitting on the pavement waiting for a stall on your market. Asked what he was selling- it turned out it was olives . Sells them on behalf of a firm. Why have we ""brought in"" someone from Afghanistan to flog olives in York? Don't get it, really don't."
"'qwerty99666's profile picture qwerty99666
16 Dec 08, 8:27pm (26 minutes ago)
""I've had 12 jobs since 2001""
From what you wrote and the tone of how you wrote it that fact really does not surprise me Cheesymonkey.'
I'm surprised he's had any. ever."
"_AT_querty99666
Your first point makes no sense whatsoever.
""I didn't say all migrants can get benefits but I know that many do such as child benefit. There has been a great scam going on for a while involving Polish workers getting paid child benefit here for their children who are actually living in Poland"".
Please provide the evidence that many migrants get benefits such as child benefit? Where is the evidence of this ""great scam"" involving Polish workers that you mention?"
"Ho ho ho. Nah, nature of my job tends to be supplied on a temporary basis - short to medium term temp contracts through agencies. However, the job I do (and hundreds of over people do as well) is disappearing as the big companies that normally employ me have realised that an Indian worker with the same skills in Mumbai is far far cheaper to employ in actual terms. So give it a further two or so years, there may be no jobs for me to get. Or there might be. Who knows?
But I am not going to blame those Indian workers for doing those jobs... why the fuck shouldn't they? But I will take a pop at bigotry dressed up as moaning..."
"Why are so many people who freely criticise cheaper (still not that cheap)immigrant labour the same ones who have so lavished praise on the wonders of the free market?
Did they mean a free internal market for themselves alone?"
"Have somebody seen any British kitchen porter or any British working at fish or chiken processing factory, vegetables picker or any other dirty low paid job? Now try to imagine they do, so how much will strawberry or chicken cost?
You should be thankful those immigrants who took your jobs, they save you a lot of money. Now try to imagine all immigrants are gone..."
"There are at least six principal economic problems This leavie aside social and cultural ones as well as gross, illegal exploitation of people by some employers , often migrants themselves.
The first is displaced labour. As other people have commented, it is nonsense to suggest that British workers did not do jobs before immigrants arrived. This leads directly to suppression of wages, often intentionally.
It is simple economics. The more surplus labour available, the lower employers will drive wages down. Most employers, including individuals, will take the lowest price offered, even if it not the true economic cost. Taxpayers heavily subsidise these employers by providing special services, such as translation and education, and unemployment for displaced UK workers. All have costs attached. If employers or migrant workers had to pay these costs, in full, then migrant wage rates would be much higher. As budgets are finite, governments may divert costs of educating and training indigenous workers to support immigrants in various ways. This makes indigenous labour even less attractive to employers. Poor, white boys and young men are now the most disadvantaged group in our society.
The second is providing jobs with living wages. When wage suppression occurs, it takes indigenous workers below those levels where it is economic for them to support their families to a reasonable British standard of living. Migrants expect less, sometimes much less, and can live in conditions for short periods that no local person would tolerate. This reflects directly in wages demanded by workers. So displaced workers claim benefits - a further undeclared cost of immigration. Displaced workers on benefits are merely making the same economic choices as employers – the best and most reasonable return on outlay. In their case it is an outlay of effort and skills. This is the only ‘service they have sell on the job-market. They have been priced out of the market.
The third is the support of non-working migrants. Unemployed, dependants and children, who, but for migration would not be here.
The fourth is that many jobs are illusory. These jobs only supply services to, or support immigrants. Others such as those that deal with say, race discrimination policies, would not exist but for migration. It pleases the government to add those in full to GDP but in fact they contribute little to our economy.
The fifth is the huge drain of money from our economy. I regularly travel overseas, and see for myself that migrant remittances are huge (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7774180.stm ) India alone officially takes $30 billion (£15billion, then) from ours and other advanced economies through its émigré NRIs, and much more unofficially.. Think of GDP as your household income. If someone was draining £000s each year out of your household income, you would have less to spend on goods and services your family need, now and in the future. Now, it is much worse as the Government must borrow £billions to pay for this drain – money that our children and grandchildren must pay back.
The sixth is the export of jobs. It is no coincidence the export of manufacturing and service jobs has speeded up, the more migrants we have. Many are directly instrumental in making connections and facilitating the exporting of jobs, often enriching themselves and their families directly in the process 'back home'. I have seen it many, many times when visiting the principal recipient countries. Non-EU Companies entering our industries make no apologies for saying they intend to steal as much technology and know-how from our companies they involve themselves in. The have the avowed purpose of taking it ‘back home. I see that in some cases they are now asking for UK Governement subsidies, too. Jaguar/ Landrover is a case in point.
The Government is far less than honest about these costs. Indeed it is downright dishonest about them. If we can think about UK plc, a board of directors directly supporting and funding the companys trading competitors will be thought of as either mad or fraudulent. Yet it seems we are urged to applaud ours."
"Some points that are not given enough airspace on CIF comments, whose main source of influence seems to come from page three land of assorted toe-rags out to keep a thick populace content in their thickness.
Regarding those voracious eastern Europeans: the UK government might not be keen to advertise it to their people, but its very clear to the rest of Western Europe. Whether tory or labour, the UK has consistently been among the biggest supporters of the ongoing expansion of the EU. Reasons? 1. The 700-year-old British tradition of divide, dilute and survive re. continental Europe, as if the virgin queen herself was still atop the sainted throne. 2. Weaken EU political integration and at the same time the Russians (just as any 51st client state should dutifully do). 3. Promote the free-market economic model that until very recently, the British were always crowing so loudly about.
The strategy works just as intended. What is viewed as excessively rapid expansion cleverly unites everything left and right of reasonable people in the political centre. It precipipates the French no vote to the EU constitution, so promoting all the above obectives while, into the bargain, getting the UK off the referendum hook. Pats on the back all round, perfidious friends! But how many friends you got left? See the Germans biting Gordon back for his arrogant posturing. They couldnt give a damn about debt in the UK economy but, like anybody else, they love to get their political own back. Well, your own is just what youre about to get back for slavishly supporting free markets and big business, opposing social chapters and every attempt of EU pressure groups to introduce employment regulation. In these very pages, we have the ex-editor of the Economist, a publication renowned for its support of the invisible hand, whose magical tricks are getting harder to follow as each day passes, pompously lecturing everybody in haughty tones for their lack of understanding of economics. And forecasting (again) the demise of the Euro. Who cares? Nobody will remember his self-serving bollocks when the UK is begging to get on board, and hell still be all right Jack.
As some of your most celebrated philosophers would opine: You couldnt make it up!
Keep the pound low. Keep wages low. After all, youve got to compete with the Chinese. Alors, bonne chance! Well see how youre faring against other EU economies in 2020. Maybe you should ask the yanks to offer you official Airstrip One status? You may have noticed how much the president-elect is a fan of Britain, hell give you some very nice terms, Im sure.
On second thoughts, forget all that crap, its too complicated. Just keep reading the tabloid misinformation sheets - you should close all the borders now, you know you really want British fingers attached to British oinks from British council estates emptying British bedpans filled from British bladders in the local British hospital.
But will they, any time soon?"
"Ah, the old mantra of ""migrants only take jobs the locals are unwilling or unable to do"".
A neat slogan - what those on the left mean by it is that migrants take the jobs the British are too stupid or too lazy to do, being so vastly inferior to migrants.
And the bosses typically mean that migrants are the only ones willing to take jobs after they have driven down pay and conditions.
But really? Does M. Legraine believe that migrants magically arrive to fill vacancies deserted by locals? Is not always more plausible that a large pool of migrant labour competes directly with the locals? And is not plausible that a temporary migrant can work for less not having the overheads of a family and mortgage in Britain? And that a migrant can tolerate working conditions and working hours for three years that would be intolerable were he not looking forward to making himself rich in a poorer country?
But, I suppose, it is good to read M. Legraine's nonsense one last time. If things get really bad, his type will be strong candidates for a spot of angry mob justice."
"ZacSmith - Great post
Bromley - Great post
I would add that ;
The immigration debate is seriously undermined by the fact that the Government has no clue as to how many immigrants are living in UK.
Surely, in an island state, Customs could count people comming in and out?
Also, where are the stats on nationality of benefit claimants , tax payers etc. ?
There are obviously a huge number of EU immigrants working in UK , but with no stats we cannot know the size of the benefit/detriment to UK.
Obviously statistics alone can never resolve this argument, but at the moment we are grasping in the dark.
We all love foreigners, but the lack of control is a worry.
Perhaps we should employ lots of Polish people at Customs and Excise . Then at least the taxpayer would benefit from the low wages. Don't leave all the benefit to the building trade (who still manage to go bust!)."
"It is Legrain and people like him who have been twisting the truth for years.
There never was a case for mass immigration and the myriad problems it has caused.
How many times have we been told by the liars that mass immigration has been economically beneficial for instance?
All it has done is added to the BOOM that has now BUST. Without so much immigration not only would there have been less stress on housing, traffic congestion, schools,etc house prices would not have exploded and we would not now be in line for the worst recession in the western world. And we would be facing less of a danger from power cuts because of the extra demand..
There would also have been less ethnic tensions that mass immigration has added to. The terrorist threat would also have been reduced.
But the narrow-minded pro-immigrations aren't interested in that. All they care about is trying to hang onto the their discredited ideology."
"New figures reveal that immigrants are not taking British people's jobs – despite what Sir Andrew Green's thinktank says.
---
I see. You've been around the UK, interviewed everyone concerned, and come to the conclusion that no jobs which could be done by British workers are being done by immigrant workers?
Not 1%, not 5%, not 10% ... none at all.
Do you have your own comedy show Philippe? You should you know."
"And for the anecdotes:
- There are factories where I grew up which provided a long term job for some of the semi-skilled locals, and summer work for students. Now, nearly all migrants.
- A friend in a tourist area told me that until about 2004 local girls did the shop work. Within a year almost all the jobs were filled by Polish girls.
- In London the hospitality industry is almost entirely non-British, yet go to more unfashionable areas where migrant labourers are unlikely to arrive in areas, and you'll find hotels staffed by perfectly polite and competent locals.
So, what I see and hear makes me doubt that things are as simple as M. Legraine's choice of statistics suggests.
But, ultimately, cheap migrant labour cannot be a good model for long term economic success. After all, it is not capable of being a universal model for world prosperity. It is just a sticking patch. Like unregulated credit."
"This is a charmingly quaint article offering a final defence of a discredited worldview. It should be preserved for the amusement of future generations.
Quite simply the era of mass migrations, facilitated by cheap energy and driven by finance-capital created bubbles is over. It won't be too long before the cost of getting here, and the economic devastation awaiting when one arrives, will discourage all but the most desperate potential migrants.
Meanwhile the tide of economic nationalism, already strong in Russia, China and Korea, and no doubt soon to be witnessed in Obama's USA (wait for tariffs on foreign cars to follow the auto bail-out) will grow ever stronger. ""Diverse"" populations will no longer be an advantage. Uniform ones will. The neoliberal dream of a wealthy, multi-cultural, world of endless economic growth is over.
As credit evaporates and resources decline, we're returning to a world of all against all. We're returning to reality."
"bill40: ""There are rwo effects I would like Me Legrain to explore further. They both concern the credit crunch and worry me. First if I lose my job and decide I will take anything, if I am blocked by a migrant how will I feel?""
Well, with Woolworths going bust, many will soon be able to answer that very question.
I hope that they will not hate the migrant workers - who are only doing what is best for themselves and their family. A bit of angry mob justice for M. Legraine and his like would be in order. And not voting for the Labour government that has created the situation too.
-----------------------
_AT_zac smith: ""The losers are the people who would have done those jobs worse for more money.""
Or, as well but for more money. Enough of these stereotypes of greedy, stupid Brits!!
But anyway, even if we except your stereotyping, do you say we should not favour the locals in the job market? And if you say that would be wrong, then answer this: would you favour the locals when it comes to paying unemployment benefit?
It is an odd world where one cannot show social solidarity for fellow citizens by trying to keep them in work, but you can show such solidarity by (at greater expense) paying them to do nothing."
"_AT_IntenselyRelaxed

Are you available for children's parties?"
So many fatuous swipes. The PM wants to force people on welfare to work or lose their dole money. Government is not looking to encourage higher wages. It matters little whether the workers are homegrown or foreign born. There is a worldwide crisis and one way or another wages are going to be forced down unless solidarity organising not chauvinistic peevishness is the watchword. It's just that little bit harder. Of course employers want lower paid foreign workers. If they don't get them, they'll want lower paid British born workers. The more people are thrown out of work, the easier it is to force wages down. Does anyone seriously think Brown has other intentions? To pay British workers more? In a month of Sundays.
"_AT_CheesyMonkey
Read and enjoy: http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/
It's very funny and very informative."
"The none-too-sweet stench of xenphobic protectionism wafts up from the otherwise right-on ranks of CiF.
I have to confess a slight bias.
I am one of those terrible foreigners (from outside the EU moreover - from South Africa) who moved to the UK some years ago to steal your jobs and steal your women (I met my English wife over here). If I were not here, no doubt some native born Brit would not be stewing on the dole, but instead happily doing my job and earning my salary.
Not that any amount of protectionist legislation would have been able to keep me out. I had a British passport thanks to my English mother (notwithstanding that I had never before set foot in the UK before and will never pass the Tebbitt test). But that is somewhat academic. There are thousands of Saffas living here, gainfully employed and paying taxes, and I am essentially no different.
Do I care that I might be keeping a true Brit out of a job? Not at all.
The fact is that foreigners working in the UK are either doing jobs that native Brits refuse to do (sweep streets, harvest vegetables), are not very good at doing or too expensive (building work) or filling a gap in the market (such as professional jobs). Migrants, in my view, are a benefit to the UK economy. not the reverse.
But with this recession, we will soon find the Left making common cause with the BNP, as unemployment is blamed on migrants and not on the very home-grown political and economic cock-ups that landed us in this mess in the furst place.
It concerns me that there is talk that should block workers from the EU (and elsewhere) simply to feather-bed incompetent British workers at over-inflated salaries in order to keep them off the dole. That way lies the economic disaster zone that were the Warsaw Pact countries (or was 1970s Britain).
Worse still, this push for protectionism will simply stoke xenophobia and racism. We all know what happened in Germany following the Great Depression....
Finally, and the point has already been made, it never seems to occur to Brits whinging about Johnny Foreigner making off with their jobs, that they are entitled to work in any one of the other 26 EU member states. But will they? Of course not. They might have to speak another language and eat different food.
My heart bleeds."
"Britain has been behaving like an oil rich middle eastern state for some years now. We have imported everything from mangetout (Kenya) to workers (everywhere). Yet we can grow stuff; this is not a desert. But why not import cheaper food?
We could at one time do work too. But why bother when we can import cheap labour and get bright young maths graduates picking strawberries. We can even occasionally use the maths graduates as mathematicians and they are cheaper as they don't have inflated ideas about their skills; because they have been picking strawberries.
All this worked when the great Ponzi scheme that is the British economy was hurtling onwards but now that it has hit a brick wall we are like the middle east will be when the oil does finally run out. We are wandering around trying to remember what it was like to keep a herd of camels; or in our case sheep, or cows. But we can grow things, and we could grow things, and maybe we have to take a leaf out of the Khymer Rouge book of sociology (a frightening thought) and march the shop assistants and the media studies graduates and the PR free-loaders and the politicians and the estate agents into the fields and give them forking spades and a bit of leadership from some Polish farmers.
Maybe we need to import skilled instructors now and march the unemployed into tech colleges and maybe in return for the food their fellows are growing maybe we can teach them how to be of use and what the fundamental truths of life are."
"_AT_Cheeseymonkey 9.12pm
But I am not going to blame those Indian workers for doing those jobs... why the fuck shouldn't they?
Because when you've got a computer problem it helps if
1. The line is clear
2. There isn't a five-second delay between question and answer
3. The guy on the other end isn't reading from a crib sheet
4. You have to ask him to repeat himself several times
I mean no ill to that guy. The setup just doesn't work."
IntenselyRelaxed, you seem to be describing an alarmingly pessimistic hobbesian 'state of nature' descent into possibly murderous anarchy, perhaps a more appropriate pseudonym might be 'IntenselyParanoid'?. Let's hope most of the population of this great country are not seduced by evil scapegoaters such as the right wing tabloids, the shockingly despicable Holocaust-denying racists of the BNP etc.
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"_AT_islmaophobia sucks
Not at all. I'm describing disciplined industrial estates competing with each other with the tacit understanding that failure in this competition, what with depeleting global resources, is going to get more and more painful.
This is the way that, for example, Japan and Korea naturally see things. Hence their phenomenal productivity.
Neoliberalism has blinded the western world in general, and the UK and USA in particular, into believing that there's loads of resources out there, and that wealth could grow exponentially through the non-productive manipulation of credit. The immigration events that the UK has experienced over the last decade are just a by-product of this. And, in the baleful list of our economic problems, it's not even a particularly big one. Nevertheless, one has to see it for what it is."
"PartisanUK: ""Have somebody seen any British kitchen porter or any British working at fish or chiken processing factory, vegetables picker or any other dirty low paid job? Now try to imagine they do, so how much will strawberry or chicken cost? You should be thankful those immigrants who took your jobs, they save you a lot of money. Now try to imagine all immigrants are gone...""
You see plenty, depends on whether the area is the sort where migrants turn up in search of work, or whether the local employers have started employing recruitment agents a thousand miles away.
But do they save us a lot of money? Does it save us money to pay the dole for a kitchen porter? And for the others? Do the unskilled magically become skilled? Or do they sink into an unwanted underclass?
Certainly, they are unwanted by you. Their job prospects are nothing compared to cheaper strawberries.
Obviously, if the migrant labour goes in a flash we'll be in trouble. But a drug doesn't have to be beneficial for its sudden withdrawal to be painful. Cheap migrant labour is with cheap credit the opium of our economy. Better to be weaned off it.
In the end, it won't just be the strawberry pickers. Your logic will apply to an ever widening category of jobs. I had hoped that that Polish lady (Alexandra something) was the start of a trend that would see British Guadian columnists replaced by cheaper and more intelligent migrant journalists. Sadly, no. It would have been ironic."
"grahamjt

I am here to stay. I have no intention whatsoever of returning to live in SA (although I do occasionally return to visit).
Actually, I enjoy living in the UK (which I now regard as home), get on extremely well with my English family, friends and colleagues, and love my English wife.
What I do despise is whinging xenophobes who blame their unemployment on foreigners living here, instead of the useless government and greedy City spivs who caused all the trouble in the first place.
Fortunately, very few Brits I know fall into that category. This country remains one of the most tolerant in Europe but we cannot risk the likes of Migration Watch stoking the flames of xenophobia and racism."
"Mungoteazer: ""The fact is that foreigners working in the UK are either doing jobs that native Brits refuse to do (sweep streets, harvest vegetables), are not very good at doing or too expensive (building work) or filling a gap in the market (such as professional jobs). Migrants, in my view, are a benefit to the UK economy. not the reverse.""
Same mantra.
British workers = too lazy, too stupid, too greedy.
Non-British worrk = hard working, intelligent, not at all greedy.
No lectures on xenophobia, please. You have your own nasty little stereotypes.
Africans I know in Britain tend to be far more positve about the country. Lots of them seem to actually like it. Could we swap you for one of them? For ten of them even? There'd be more chance of them learning to love the country."
"_AT_HowardD






It sounds like you're describing call centre work, which usually employs people unskilled in the area they are covering and work from crib sheets and the like. Interestingly, those jobs are returning to the West, but at reduced pay/increased hours/reduced benefits - globalisation's job done, as it were.
Some of the major international banks have service centres in places like Mumbai and Cochin which handle tasks like presentations formatting and low-level graphic design work (and increasingly analysis). Those guys are just as good as the workers in those departments in London, New York, Zurich and Frankfurt and the banks realised that they could, for example, whittle down presentation departments in London to a front desk that accepted work in from bankers and analysts, and a couple of proofreaders to ensure the overseas workforce gets the English right. In time, those jobs too may return here at vastly reduced pay. Or they might leave India for China. Either way, globalisation's job done."
"justpassin
I hope you're not. Great post."
Do not worry British people, pound(£) is going down, there is no more any point to work in the UK for coins, so economic migrants already leaving, soon you will get all low paid dirty jobs back.
"_AT_partisanuk

You raise an interesting point.
I believe in the concept of a balanced society.
In a balanced society, that society does all the jobs necessary for that society to function.
Some jobs are unpleasant - sure. The way to ensure they are done by members of the society is to make it worth their while.
In a balanced society, the people who do the unpleasant jobs get rewarded in other ways (e.g. financially).
What we have instead is a junkie society. The junkie society refuses to pay its own people attractive rates to do unpleasant jobs, and instead parks them on the sofa on incapacity benefit, and flies in people from the vast pool of manpower open to do anything for next to nothing.
The inevitable consequence is twofold. Firstly, you end up with a workless underclass that belong to the junkie society.
Secondly, the size of the society grows year on year...ad infinitum, as each generation imports people to do its jobs for it.
What's been happening to our population level?
Is this a good thing for an island which already demands the product of a part of the earth 14 times its own surface area?
(No, it isn't)"
"joseph1832




All my British family, friends and colleagues, and most other Brits I have met, are hardworking intelligent people who would hold their own anywhere.
I may have generalised a touch for effect, but the truth remains.
Migrants do the dirty and manual jobs that most Brits on benefits could not be bothered to do (the same holds true for most other first world countries) and which would remain undone if all migrants were to leave tomorrow
Migrants do certain jobs better and more competitively than many Brits do (I can think of the building trade for example).
If all migrants were to leave the UK tomorrow, what is left of the British economy would grind to a halt.
Xenophobic protectionism will do the economy of this country considerably more harm than good.

If I did not love the UK, then I would not have married an Englishwoman (who would not live in any other country) and made this country my home. Or are resident migrants disqualified from being critical of the UK and its inhabitants in the same way as the native born?
I am a British citizen (like it or not). I pay my taxes. I obey the laws. I regard this country as my home.
I can say what the hell I like about the UK, even if it winds Little Englanders up something horrid."
"PartisanUK

Absolutely true.
Already, all those nasty Eastern Europeans who have done all those poor Brits out of their jobs-by-rights are buggering off back home, leaving Norfolk farmers, for example, wondering how the hell they are going to bring in the next harvest. And what will happen when all the economy-saving tourists attracte by the cheap-as-chips pound arrive here on holiday, to find that the hotels are woefully understaffed because all the migrants who keep them going have left?
Yes, you have the non-EU migrants like myself (although I did arrive clutching my inherited British passport), but the vast majority of recent migrants here are from the EU. As can be seen from this very thread, they have untwisted certain British knickers with their larcenous ways. Two points can be made:
1) There's bugger all the UK can do about that, short of leaving the EU and retreating into glorious (and impoverished) isolation.
2) I repeat, why are so many Brits are incapable of recognising, let alone exploiting, the fact that they can freely work in any one of the other 26 EU member states? I stand accused of hypocrisy in that I am effectively monolingual, but I do have to ask whether it is because Brits are so intimidated (or lazy) to learn another language, or that they cannot regard the Continent as somewhere other than for weekend breaks and stag parties. If you can't find work here, why not try somewhere else in Europe?
But not to worry, SuperGordo (Saviour Of The World!) will save the day: the priority will be jobs for the sake of jobs, and the UK will soon become the economic powerhouse that every Communist state ever was."
entwisted certain British knickers with their larcenous ways, that should have read.
"FAO coolluke
Not really extensive research but 3 words into google. Try it for yourself you might learn somthing!!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483225/1m-child-benefit-paid-month--mothers-Poland.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7007163.stm
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article891967.ece
http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17717503&method=full&siteid=93463&headline=hand-me--pound-75-and-i-ll-get-child-benefit-for-your-kids----in-poland---name_page.html
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=667342
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/2811-child-benefit.html"
"cheesymonkey
.)
I don't blame the migrants as long as they are here to work and can/willing to learn to communicate. I blame the government for allowing the situation to arise lying to us all the time that immigration will benefit everyone when in fact as you point out in many cases the native population will be in direct competition for work with the migrants. Also many migrants send their hard earned cash out of the country to look after their families at home, how does that help the the UK?"
"qwerty99666

Please define what you regard as the ""native population"".

They also pay taxes, which does help the UK. And what of native Brits who deposit their hard earned cash into off-shore accounts or buy property abroad?
Oh, let's have 1950s style exchange controls, shall we?"
"The problem I have with the 'they come over here and take our jobs brigade' is that in many instances, the employers and sometimes the government actually ask them to come over.
I suppose the most famous example would be the advertising campaigns in the Caribbean in the fifties, looking for people to come over and work on the buses. You might also care to throw in the efforts of the construction companies in Ireland in the sixties to get labourers over. The joke was that Wimpey stood for We Import More Paddies Every Year. My dad was one of those that made the journey over. He worked on the railways and on the building of the motorways. I asked him once why the English weren't doing the work, because it was relatively well paid. His answer was unequivocal. The work was 'too hard and too dirty'.
You see, this is the part that the likes of Migrant Watch never get round to explaining. The British long ago decided that certain jobs were below them. The country for half a century has brought in an unending supply of cheap labour to man its transport systems, build its roads, harvest its crops, clean its offices.
If every immigrant left the country tomorrow, these jobs would categorically not be filled by British people. Migrant Watch are talking unmitigated cobblers. As for Polish plumbers, electricians etc, they were brought in precisely because there weren't enough native bodies to fill its training courses, not because there weren't enough courses.
No nation likes to think of itself as lazy or snobbish, but the fact of the matter is that British people will not do certain types of jobs. And whether its Paddies, Poles or Filipinos, there are hundreds of thousands needed to do the work the indigenous population feel is beneath them.
And don't even get me started on draining lesser developed countries of qualified medical personnel."
"Mungo
What circles do you socialise in??? I don't know anyone who can afford to put any money into offshore accounts, that is the domain of the very well off, the top few per cent of the population, ie many of the employers saving money on their wage bills by using cheaper foreign labour. Native means I can't be bothered to spell check indigenous(of whatever race or creed they may be) population all the time.
Great, a migrant might pay some tax,if employed legally, if paid the legal minimum wage and if paid by PAYE. Out of that tax, funding has to be taken for the British worker who is now on the dole as the migrant is doing the job he/she was doing.
As for the argument that migrants are doing jobs Brits won't do that is propoganda at best and downright lying slander at worst. Before mass immigration to this country ALL jobs were performed no matter how undesireble. That is just a fact and no matter how many times the mantra is repeated it still doesn't make it true( Despite what Geobbals might have said). At the moment there are recruitment agencies in many Eastern European countries hiring staff to work in the UK for jobs that can and have been done by British workers. The only demand for them then can be that they will work for less money.
It is not really rocket science to see a connection between having approximately 6-8million economically inactive British citizens(many living off the state) and a large influx of cheaper labour from across the channel. Think that is a harmonious sustainable policy to keep going in the recession we are about to enter? Good for social cohesion and community bonding?
At least in the UK so far unlike in South Africa there has not been a speight of violence leading to large numbers of migrant workers fleeing for their lives."
"Mungo
Don't think I didn't notice that the only response to my point about the direct competition for jobs between migrants and British workers was a fatous point about what I might have meant by the word native!"
"qwerty99666
16 Dec 08, 6:09pm
""...Mass immigration does nothing for the host population except for the employers who love the supply of cheaper labour and it constantly amazes me that Labour voting people support this immigration as it directly opposes the working class native population...""
.
.
.
I think you'll find a lot of genuine Labour voting working class people are very troubled by the effect of large scale immigrartion on local employment. You should not confuse such real Labour supporters with the shallow neo-Thatcherite NuLabour movement whose ideals (if they have any) and motives are as far removed from anything remotely connected with the real working class as Tony Blair et al are from the truth."
Who is this Mr Legrain?
"Of course it's the immigrants fault that people are paid shitty wages. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the bosses at all. And it's certainly got nothing to do with how little power the unions have and how much everyone moans when they go on strike for better wages. Nope, all the immigrants fault.
PS. So if only natives are allowed to work in Britain does that mean all the jobs are going to be reserved for the Welsh and the Cornish?"
"Qwerty states that before immigrants British people were doing all those jobs.
Two questions. 1. When was before immigrants? There has always been migration. My guess is you're talking about migration since the second world war or maybe since the late 19th century. (Lots of people were whinging about it back then too.) 2. What were the conditions like for the people who did the jobs back then? Is this what you want to return to? I just ask because I seem to remember how shitty things were for the working classes in Britain in the 19th century and even in this century.
Force the bosses to pay a living wage and there would be no reason for them to favour an immigrant. Blaming immigrants might make you feel better but it doesn't solve the problem. You're aiming your gun at the wrong target."
"Joseph
""Does M. Legraine believe that migrants magically arrive to fill vacancies deserted by locals?""
Er, yes.
Unless young migrant fruit pickers machine gun the Brits who are already in the fields doing the job?
""- A friend in a tourist area told me that until about 2004 local girls did the shop work. Within a year almost all the jobs were filled by Polish girls.""
Why? Were the shop keepers anti-British? Not very likely so why did the Poles get the job? Low wages? Well, so what - I work for minimum wage for a self employed man - he could pay me 20 quid an hour but would quickly go bankrupt. Sometimes, if he's had a week of not many customers, my hours get cut.
My parents run a shop and work approx 50 hours per week. They dream of employing someone so they can have a holiday but can't afford it. If they did employ someone, they would ideally like to pay around £5.00 an hour - any more and it's waste of time as that one member of staff would eat up all their takings.
Because they have a ""pretty"" shop they get young British girls asking them if there's any work going on a weekly basis, btw.
My boss employs me Joseph. The work is poorly paid, physically demanding and cold in winter. He pays me just over minimum wage.
If I quit tomorrow he'll need to replace m ein the summer. The job will be advertised in teh job centre and he will take on the first able bodied male
Listen up, my unemployed chums - you don't need GCSes to pick fruit - just run down down to your nearest temp agency and grab that dream fruit picking job before it goes. The farmer will take you on, even if you're British."
"Qwerty
""As for the argument that migrants are doing jobs Brits won't do that is propoganda at best and downright lying slander at worst""
Well I did see a farmer on TV last week saying the Brits weren't interested in the early starts and cold weather.
We shall see what happens when the Poles go home - a sudden influx of young Brits eager to pick fruit and veg might stampede down to the temp agencies causing several deaths and a mini-riot in an Ikea opening stylee.
(BTW, most Brits don't live anywhere near a farmers field that they can get to at 5 in the morning so why these low paid, short term, veg picking jobs create so much debate is beyond me)."
"qwerty99666 said:
As for the argument that migrants are doing jobs Brits won't do that is propoganda at best and downright lying slander at worst. Before mass immigration to this country ALL jobs were performed no matter how undesirable.
Palpably and provably untrue. Take just one current example, farming. If you actually talk to farmers, they will tell you that they cannot get British people to harvest crops, period. The work is badly paid, unskilled and hard. With full employment over the last decade, British workers have been able to find jobs that pay better and keeps them out of the rain. Hence there are now a slew of recruitment agencies whose job it is to supply a steady stream of East Europeans to do the work. This is a known and repeated phenomenon around the world. Much as Americans may complain about South American immigrants, their farmers will tell you without them, crops will rot in the fields.
Go back to the recruitment of labourers for construction work in the fifties and sixties from Ireland. Once again, for work to be completed in anything like a timely fashion, it necessitated a concerted and ongoing recruitment campaign
from a failing economy to supply manual labour to a thriving one.
It's a fact of economic life. Economy with full employment means indigenous workers have a choice. They choose, not surprisingly, not to do the crappy jobs. Your argument is essentially that if - for example - the Irish weren't there to build the roads or lay the rail tracks, it would have been done anyway. True only to the point that the work would have been done, eventually. Screamingly untrue if you mean that there would have been the same satisfactory staffing levels and the work would have been completed within the same timeframe.
You don't even have to ask the employers (although they'll tell you much the same thing as I'm telling you), ask the consumers. While the Polish tradesmen were here, people were able to get jobs done more quickly. Now, the waits are longer, the availability constricted.
I don't think Brits are lazy, but I do think they're picky. Take a look at any nigh shift in a factory or warehouse. The majority will always be immigrants. During times of full employment, immigrants are quietly ignored and taken for granted as they stack your shelves and serve your coffee. When a recession hits, all of a sudden, they're 'over here taking our jobs'. This are the same jobs British workers consciously and of free will chose not to do."
"Joseph
""- In London the hospitality industry is almost entirely non-British, yet go to more unfashionable areas where migrant labourers are unlikely to arrive in areas, and you'll find hotels staffed by perfectly polite and competent locals.""
Yes - I know just such an area. Plenty of Brits employed as minimum wage waiters, waitresses, porters etc. Great, eh?
They are all young. Possibly students. Many times the children of those who own the business.The Hotel/B&B/cafe owners struggle to survive so need cheap labour. The young, meanwhile, live in an area with few employment opportunities so, yes, they serve the cream teas or pull the pints.
In a city the size of london one would hope youngsters have a bit more choice although plenty of Brits are still - even in London - employed as kitchen porters, waiters etc etc."
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"And I suppose any pro-immigration organisation doesn't have any agenda?
The problem with huge levels of immigration we have had in the UK is it stops companies having to take on the inexperienced and train them. It also pisses all over the point of the minimum wage when these guys work for less because they are not on the books.
Immigration feeds an important hole in the job market only when you have nearyl full employment if you don't cheap, often exploitable, migrant workers cause unemployment with the indigenous population.
Are you really going to argue if we hadn't had unchecked migration here for the last five years some of the nearly one million unemployed wouldnt have finally have been winkled into the work place?"
"Siegelinde
The solution is quite simple. Report your company for illegally employing people. Sue them for breaking numerous other laws such as sacking you illegally. If your story is true you should do quite nicely out of it.
But I have a sneaking suspicion you're talking out your arse."
"I think we are all wobbling round the edge of this issue. Time to think of a fair ,practical , humane system of repatriation. A structured replacement of migrant by indigenous workers that supports industry, indigenous and migrants.
I write this on the morning that the Nationalization of our entire banking system seems ""inevitable"".
What do you want ? Cheap strawberries and soup kitchens? I love the smell of firewood in braziers, don't you? - We can grow strawberries anywhere with the right will. Schoolchildren can learn to grow them on their land, eat them as school meals.
Ryan Air could be nationalized for the airllift."
"skimmer

Lovely. BNP talk makes the pages of CiF....
And how do you propose it be determined who be deported?
Is anyone who has migrated to these shores to be repatriated, regardless of whether they are now British citizens or have a right of permanent abode? What of migrants who have married Brits and what of migrants whose children were born here?
Where do you propose the line be drawn?
A fair, practical , humane system of repatriation is an impossibility and will simply turn the UK into a fascist state."
Have to go to what bit of work I have left, now. Will catch you later.
"Harry the Horse
your article accusing Migrationwatch as being extremist is rather like throwing stones at the greenhouse.
Your illiberal statement is more the work of an extremist than Migrationwatch.
What you are really saying is that any critic of immigration must be shut down and censored a true mark of a Fascist or Totalitarian minded person.
Thank goodness some free speech is still left in this country though being denied slowly but surely however much you may disagree with anyone's premise"
"qwerty99666

Oh, stop playing the Poverty Card. There are plenty of Brits with offshore accounts and homes abroad. My point is that if you are going to whinge about migrants sending funds abroad on account of it not benefitting the UK, then you'd better also whinge about Brits who send their money out the country.
In fact, simply demand exchange controls so that hardly any money can be taken out of the country. Along with a policy of xenophobic protectionism, that will really screw the econonmy good and bloody proper.

Oh, stop wriggling. Native and indigenuous are synonyms and you have still failed to answer my question as to what is a native or indigenuous Brit. Come on, you must have some idea how the naive wheat is to be sorted from the migrant chaff, and I am genuinely interested to learn how you will make the distinction.

What bigotted bollocks.
Most migrants living in this country are hardworking law-abiding folk who pay tax in the same way as most ""indigenous"" Brits. Your reasoning is so up its own backside as to be utterly bereft of logic.
And apart from tax, migrants also spend a good chunk of their salaries here and also keep businesses going.
I am a migrant and so too are many of my friends. We pay more tax than a good many Britons earn in the first place.
So, stop trying to rationalise your prejudice.

Stop wallowing in some mythological past and deal with today's reality.

The UK is a member of the EU. Any citizen of any EU country is legally entitled to work here, whether recruited or not. Just as any UK citizen is legally entitled to work anywhere in the UK. It's the law. Geddit?

So, what is your ""solution""? The UK to leave the EU, deport all migrants and to prohibit all immigration? And, as I have posted above, how do you determine who is to be deported?

Well, maybe the Brits should take pride in being amongst the most tolerant people in the world, instead of trying to be more xenophobic than any other country in Europe."
"That should have read
""Just as any UK citizen is legally entitled to work anywhere in the EU"".
Although many Brits seem to be entirely unaware that they are in fact entitled to work outside the UK."
"These figures show that in 1q97 UK employment was 26245k of which 93% were UK born 7% foreign born. 3q08 UK employment was 26245k 29,497 of which 87%was UK born, 13% foreign.
If the immigrant percentage had not changed, there would be 1,564,000 more jobs held by UK born workers.
These jobs represent 5.3% of all UK employment, which I believe it around the unemployment rate.
The argument could be made that these people do jobs that the British would not do. Japan's foreign population is about 1.5 pct. Obviously the Japanese do most of the work in Japan - why can't the British do most of the work in Britain?"
"qwerty99666

Hardly a fatuous point. As noted above, I am genuinely interested how you propose to determine a ""migrant"" worker from a ""British"" worker.
Take me as a case in point. I moved to the UK from SA in 1999 at the age of 33 (the first time I had ever set foot here). My mother is British and my father's father was British also, so I had a British passport. That said, I am a South African (albeit very assimilated in the UK) and still support South Africa in sport against any British team (and will do so until the day I die). I am married to an Englishwoman and regard the UK as my permanent home.
How do you classify me?
Go on then, I know you do it."
"Go on then, I know you can do it.", that should have read.
The truth is that but for mass immigration, Britain's population, which grew to long-term unsustainable levels in the 19th and early part of the 20 Centuries, would now, mercifully, be declining naturally back towards a sustainable level somewhere below 50 million, instead of climbing further towards 70 million and perhaps beyond, which can only lead to massive problems (not to put it in more dramatic terms) in the decades ahead as climate change, resource depletion and environmental degradation become more and more acute.
To all you who don't like "immigrants stealing your jobs": would if be wrong for someone from Liverpool to get a job in Manchester? What about a Welshman? Or an Irishman? Or is it only ok if they come from North Ireland? Would you never ever travel outside the village you were born in to get a job? The world is bigger than your blinkered eyes can see...
And you can hardly complain about remittances if you have ever bought an imported product or spent any money on a holiday abroad.
"rogerhicks

So you would be happy for the UK to resemble Japan in terms of age demographics, with a shrinking pool of young economically active people having to support a growing number of retirees?"
"cram

Precisely.
If Scotland were to become independent (an increasingly unlikely prospect now that the Icelandic model no longer looks so sexy), would we have Scottish jobs for Scottish people and English jobs for English people, with no cross border migration permitted?
One of the main reasons why the Great Depression was as bad as it was, was that governments the world over embraced protectionism as a solution. Why people can't realise by now that protectionist policies are an economic own goal, is beyond me."
"Peter Hain
Ministers tonight faced fresh questions about the number of foreign workers in Britain after the government's chief statistician said there were 1.5 million people employed in the UK who were born overseas.
It is the second time the migrant workers number has been revised upwards in as many days.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/30/immigration.immigrationpolicy
There is no problem? Then why did the government try to hide these stats? We have had 11 years of uncontrolled immigration and only certain parts of this country have born the brunt of it, Leicester, Bradford, Portsmouth, Slough, if you live in one of the areas that the government doesn't dump these people in, you will keep saying ""problem? what problem?"".
We either allow immigrants into this country when our own eduction system fails to train our own people (like Doctors) and then when we do train our own student Doctors, they don't have any jobs because they have gone to Doctors from 3rd world countries (countries which really needed them) and our Doctors go to Australia and New Zealand!
The other type of immigrants are the ones who come here legally or illegally, they do all the crap jobs and some don't even get the minimum wage. While living costs in this country mean that a UK worker is better off claiming benfits, what a perverse system! These people also help Gordon Brown keep wages and costs down for his little economic ""miracle"".
And finally we have White immigrants from the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, who come here, take jobs at the cost of a UK worker, set-up an offshore account and then don't pay a penny in tax, while using our NHS and public services. Does that seem fair? Why don't we hear about these people more?
This article is a typical British response these days, gone are the generation who would stand up for their rights and care about the well being of the nation. Here is modern Britain, ""I'm allright Jack, I have my house, my car, my bird, I don't give a monkey's about anyone else"". Head in sand, rule Britannia!"
"lumanari



The vast majority of legal migrants into the UK over the past few years have been from within the EU. The UK is obliged to allow other EU citizens to work here, just as other EU states are obliged to allow UK citizens to work there. Do you propose that we pull out of the EU?
With regards to legal migrants from outside the EU (such as myself and many of my friends from SA), we are all doing jobs for which we are needed and paying our taxes.
Without myself and all the other migrants, the economy of this country would be in a far worse condition.

Hey, you ignored me and all the other thousands of South Africans here! We are also stealing your precious jobs, so don't ignore us!!
Sarcasm aside, I know a good many people from SA as well as folk from NZ, Australia and Canada.
All keep most of their money in UK accounts (after all, they live here and have bills to pay here).
And so bloody what if some have set up offshore accounts? So do thousands of Brits.
And we all pay taxes here, so we are all entitled to use the NHS (which I avoid doing as much as possible, having a private doctor and dentists) and public services.
So, yes, you have just heard from one of ""these people"", you narrow-minded and ignorant bigot."
"MungoTeazer

That key word there ""legal"". Also do you know that we have 4 million people unemployed in this country? Shouldn't we be looking after them first? And other EU countries do not offer such a generous benfits package, the UK has taken a disproportionate brunt of the immigration

With better training and education, we wouldn't need you, the government uses immigration to hide their failure in education, 4 million people on the scrap heap because the government couldn't train them properly.

In a class of 30 in New Zealand, 27 people will come here to work on a ""causal visa"", this means they cannot take up full time work. But they break the terms of that visa, they setup an off-shore bank account, and they claim back everything, even VAT. How many people do you know? Are you just covering yourself here by denying everything?
Let me tell you a story about a friend of mine who went to Australia, when he was collered by the immergration officer at the airport:
Officer: Your not thinking of working here are you?
Friend: No, I am just here for a holiday.
Officer: You better not, we have 2 million people unemployed here, we are going to look after them first.
Friend: But how come your lot can come over to the UK, taking up jobs, breaking the terms of your visa and claiming back all the tax, yet you take this tough stance with me?
Officer: Your country is stupid.

Coming from a South African, I find the above statement hilarious."
"Many posters, but Mungo perhaps most egregiously, seem to have become fixated by the idea of immigrants only doing jobs that the British won't do. ""I couldn't get locals to do it for this money so I got Poles in instead"" is an oft heard anecdote.
Let's deal with this.
Brits won't do the work because it's not well paid enough. Faced with putting their prices up or going foreign, most employers go foreign.
What would have happened if they hadn't been able to import foreign workers? They'd have had to raise wages until they could tempt Brits off the sofa or from other jobs.
The net result would have been higher wage inflation, particularly at the bottom end, higher inflation generally, lower unemployment, lower inequality, lower social deprivation and - here's the crux of it - higher interest rates.
Now stand back and look at the wider picture. Why are we in such economic trouble in this country now? At least partly because for the best part of a decade interest rates were too low, leading to 125% mortgages, lie-to-buy self-certification, a 4by4 on every McDriveway, and over half Europe's entire personal debt.
So yes, if we'd had fewer immigrant workers we would have had to pay more for things, but we would have been a better country for it and better able to deal with the economic shitstorm now heading our way."
"lumanari
I am not a South African, but I am a Scot, so maybe my opinion doesn't count either - but if you are not a ""narrow-minded and ignorant bigot"" you certainly come across as one.
I would like a clear link to a site which supports your view that ""White immigrants from the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, who come here, take jobs at the cost of a UK worker, set-up an offshore account and then don't pay a penny in tax, while using our NHS and public services."" This smacks in the face of common sense, if nothing else."
I'm glad we have Sir Andrew Green's and a few others looking out for us, unless you live with the problem you'd think everything was O.K.
"luminari

I have the same issues as anyone else about illegal immigration. However, the vast majority of migrants to the UK are legal and the majority of those legal migrants come from the EU. And most of those legal EU migrants are working, not lazing about on the dole. Let me repeat, they come here for the work; not for the benefits. That is proved by the fact that many Eastern Europeans are now heading home after our economy has tanked, and not stayed to scrouge off benefits.
And how many of those 4 million unemployed (assuming that statistic is correct) would otherwise be doing the work that the migrants are doing? And how many of them are institutionally unemployed with no real desire to get off benefits?

Well whinge at the government then, not us migrants, It's not our fault if too many Brits are too unskilled and uneducated to do the jobs that we are meant to be stealing. That said, I would be interested to know how much training and education is required to do the dirty and manual jobs that so many migrants do instead of Brits.

And from which thumb did you suck that little fairy tale?
If people coming from the Commonwealth abuse the terms of their travelling visa (and none of the South Africans, Kiwis, Aussies and Canucks I know have done that: they are all working here entirely legally), then it is for the British government to enforce those visas.
If you are going to adopt that reasoning, then you might as well also ban people from visiting the UK as tourists, because tourist visas are open to the same abuse.
Do not paint the vast majority of entirely legal Commonwealth migrants wih the actions of a few.
I know and have met a good many South Africans living here (most friends from SA who have also made the move over), as well as Kiwis, Aussies and Canucks who I have met at work or socially.
All, without exception, are here entirely legally. Either they entered this country on a British passport (as I did), or were married to an EU citizen (as a friend was) or were sponsored by a UK company and obtained a full working visa.
Almost all are now also UK citizens (those who were not when they arrived, acquired citizenship after 5 years), so they can continue to steal your jobs, no matter what you try to do or how much you scream.
And all have purchased houses here and have their principal bank accounts here.

Well, your little heart will bursting with joy to know that SuperGordo (Saviour Of The World!) is introducing an Aussie-style points system into this country, which will keep all the nasty non-EU types out (although, as a British passport holder, that would still not stop me stealing your job).
But that will in no way impact on the right of each and every EU citizen freely to work in the UK.

You just love your little stereotypes, don't you? Carry on digging yourself into your hole."
"[MungoTeazer]:

Changing age demographics can be socially and economically far more easily adjusted to than an unsustainably large population, which has the potential to turn extremely nasty, especially if we leave it to a ruthless Mother Nature to regulate, as she surely will, if we fail to do so ourselves.
The tragedy (which has yet to unfold) is that Mother Nature, mercifully, was regulating, i.e. decreasing, UK population for us, before state and capital interests decided to increase it through mass immigration. By the end of this new Century we can be pretty sure that she will have reduced Britain's population to well below 50, probably below 20, or even 10 million people, and we are not going to like the way she does it . . ."
"bearsall
What you are advocating is xenophobic protectionism, which is focussed on full employment of regardless of economic reason (as the Soviet bloc countries did before 1989).
I am strongly of the view that migration has benefitted this country, not the other way around. Every migrant I know (and I know many, being one myself) has done nothing but benefit this country by his or her presence.
I agree that illegal immigration must be stopped and that legal immigration must be controlled (I have no issue with a points system), but the fact remains that short of pulling out of the EU and retreating into glorious and impoverished isolation, we have to accept that people from elsewhere in the EU are free to work here (as Brits are free to work elsewhere in the EU, as many wilfully seem to ignore).
What really pisses me off is the xenophobia and bigotry I have seen here (which I would have expected to find instead on the webites of the Daily Mail and the Sun), with otherwise intelligent people mindlessly blaming unemployment on migrants.
I never realised how many CiFers were British Nationalists under the skin."
"Breaking3

Yeah, you also have Nick Griffin and Nigel Farage.
The Unholy Trinity of bigotry and xenophobia."
"rogerhicks
In fact, migration is an entirely natural phenomenon, as both human history over the millennia and wildebeest and caribou herds prove.
It is only over the past century or so that countries have erected artificial barriers to human migration.
You leave me entirely unconvinced."
"nimn2003
I usually like Scots and I am quite pleased that devolution will allow you more autonomy, and hopefully undo a lot of the wrongs that Thatcher did with spending North Sea Oil revenues on tax cuts to win her an election.
I never said your opinion doesn't count, it was you who said that. Do I sense a bit of insecurity there? If you want a ""clear link to a site"", then I want a clear link to site which proves you are a Scot, because we are conversing at a level which requires us to provide proof of our statements. Provide me with this link, and I will give you mine.
Considering that those in OZ and NZ are Scots (as well as Irish and Cockneys, who made up the convicts that were deported there), I can see why you would take the stance you do.
My only point is that White immigration is as much of a problem as Black immigration, that this isn't about racism. This is about looking after the people of Britain who are already here, not sacrificing their future in exchange for big business's making profits, or the government shirking its responsibility to educate people of this country."
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Yes, and for millennia wildebeests have been taking caribou jobs...
"1. Does a human population such as the English have a natural interest in holding its living space as guarantor of its own continuity?
2. If so, does any other interest (for example, economic growth, equality, globalisation, personal freedom) surpass this interest in existential significance?"
And apparently, not that long ago donkeys were performing reindeer jobs in the New Forest, but it was only because no reindeer were willing to the job.
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"_AT_luminari
LoL :-)
OK so you don't have a site that confirms your opinion. Fine, then it will remain simply that, an opinion.
Regards NSO, I think that time has effectively pased, an Independent Scotland will need a far more robust economic model than Iceland, or a dependance on oil. It is possible, but will take a few smart moves.
As regards ""my opinion"" not counting, obviously irony is an unknown quantity.

This I really don't understand. What point are you making?

Fine, then deal with it with facts. I have no problem in debating the rights and wrongs of immigration policy. I personally think the impact is exaggerated, but am open to being convinced if I have some evidence, and not simply being told an opinion.
The government has to determine policy for the entire economy, not just pockets of economic problems. No one said running a country was easy. But they have also to comply with their other legal obligations, such as ""free movement of people"" within the EU. The imposition of ID cards onto LEGAL immigrants from the commonwealth, or the spouses of British citizens is IMHO NOT the way to solve this, or any other problem.
Let's have the truth - from both camps - and then we can form a meaningful view. So, will you give me that site now?"
"MungoTeazer
For someone who claims to have come here to work to do a job that no one in this country can do, you spend an awful long time on CiF. We can get someone in this country to spend all day making stupid and informed comments.
And why are you here? Why are you not in South Africa? You came here for one reason and one reason only, because you can earn more money here. And like all other South Africans I bet you go on and on about how great your country is, while living here and working here, even planning on retiring there no doubt! Not a little hypocritical?

My stats are no more or less reliable than the government ones, apart from the fact that I know they have been hiding people in incapacity benfits.

Given proper education and training they would be, to plug the gaps by importing people means this will never be addressed. I am whinging at the government, but I am trying to make this a non-racial issue, so that the actual issue of immigration can be discussed without involving race.

And those low skilled workers are usually illegal immigrants, paid below the minimum wage and living 10-20 to a house, employers will prefer to employ these people because they work for less money. The government allows this to happen, and so do the big supermarkets, how else can Tesco's prices be so low? Someone, somewhere has to pay for it.

First hand knowledge is the best, just because something isn't written about in the media doesn't mean it does not happen. Such as call forwarding in the NHS? Tony Blair said on Question Time that this does not happen, and what do we get on Radio 4 yesterday? Someone talking about 0845 numbers and calling forwarding services in GP surgeries as if it is common practice!

Other countries put caps on immigration from Poland, and one was put on people from Romania (after Tony Blair bribed their PM to sell their steel company for EU membership). Our policies have always been around big businesses, we could have used opt outs to stop it but we didn't, because the leaders of industry wanted to make as much money as possible.
Your passport won't stop you stealing my job, but your intelligence will.

So you deny that Apartheid happened? And that you are a beneficiary of it? And that it is quite rich for a South African to go around calling other people racists? You keep digging your hole, I'll provide you with the spade."
"This state of affairs is hardly surprising in a political culture which had been dominated by liberalism for over 40 years.
Immigration is just one example where the interests of the gung-ho economic-liberal right being aligned with those of the of the right-on social-liberal left, to the exclusion of their traditional supporters on either side."
"Mungo, the wheels are beginning to come off your intellectual wagon.
I posted (at 9.28, for the curious) an account of the mechanism by which large-scale immigration has damaged the UK economically (leaving aside culturally and environmentally).
And your response? It ranges from the incoherent

to the boringly repetitive

from the self-contradictory

to a retreat into the last refuge of the apologist for immigration

I can well understand why, as an immigrant yourself, you should feel immigration is a good thing. But you owe it to the rest of us who are more sceptical to come up with a good explanation why. Your bluster just doesn't cut it."
"Do you deny that Migrationwatch supports the imposition of compulsory Identity Cards and is a supporter of the database state? I wouldn't bother because the commitment to forced registration is in their literature and in their responses to government consultation. Opposing such nonsense is not 'illiberal' but the opposite.

No bonehead. I am expressing an opinion, which I can back up with facts and evidence. Migrationwatch is an extremist organisation. I haven't 'censored' anyone. And the last time I looked it tended to be ""Fascist or Totalitarian minded"" persons who support ID Cards, much like Migrationwatch, in fact.

Expressing my opinion doesn't deny you your free speech."
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"What a typical New Liebour piece of twisted and spun deceit, trying to cover yet another failed policy.
Not only are immigrants taking local jobs, but there is a massive drain on NHS and education resources to provide additional services for the newly arrived.
It is NOT, I repeat NOT, racist to demand control on immigration, just good political, economic and social common sense. We are a small already over populated island state, which due to poor post colonial liberal left policies has never properly debated immigration. It is high time people got off their ivory towers and we looked at the issue properly to decide what is best for our country and the people who live here and pay taxes.
In the meantime can we please stop people like Legrain writing such rubbish for their own political agenda."
The moderation here is truly orwellian. Any suggestion that Legrain, Toynbee, or Ashley is biased and partisan gets deleted.
I don't imagine that any argument that MungoTeazer could come up with would satisfy you, however the reciprocal legal right of Britons to work anywhere in Europe, does seem to me to be a strrong countervailing benefit. But I don't see how you can deny the practical points he makes,. which is that the ONLY way that you could stop EU nationals from working in the UK would be to withdraw from the EU. That could have some pretty negative consequences to the economy. If that were put to a referendum I don't think you get a majority!
"There seems to be some confusion here, between immigrant and migrant workers, the migrant workers,being, so far as I am aware, the EEC workers, who are entitled to come here to look for work,but are starting to go home.
I definitely read, in the paper version of Guardian, recently, that the by far largest group of immigrant workers, in recent years, come from outside the EEC, the largest group from the Indian subcontinent.
Can someone clarify please."
"rapideddie
When as a student I worked in fields picking fruit, I also worked as a hospital porter, barman and security guard. My g/f picked fruit every summer as she lived near Hereford. Now those jobs are not available as they are mostly filled by migrants on minimum wage or lower.
Before mass immigration are you really trying to say that ALL crops were left to whither and die in the fields? If so that is bollocks. Farmers want their crops picked for the minimum amount of wages they can get away with, therefore they want long hours and low wages. Instead of offering better conditions or more money, employing migrants allows them to get away with the lowest wages and longest hours.
Cheap migrant labour is only a benefit to employers, a group of people on every other topic who are condemned by the Guardian and the left but on immigration employers are getting exactly what they want and the Guardian campaigns for it."
"lumanari

I have taken today off and am posting from home. Where are you posting from?
And, yes, I do agree that my comments are informed. Unlike yours.

You really are ignorant , bitter and twisted, aren't you?
Why am I here?
I have a British passport. I have family here. There were opportunities for me here. And I have also *shock horror* not only stolen one of your jobs but alsi one of your women (now my wife).
I hardly say anything about SA in my day-to-day conversation (if asked, I will let people know my views about SA and what is happening there, which are irrelevant to this thread, but which hardly constitute praise-singing). As me retiring to SA, the UK is now home for me so that is most unlikely. And so what if I did want to retire to SA? Would that be any different from all those Brits who have retired to Spain and Florida?

Just another unsubstantiated assertion from you. Oh well ...

Well you certainly now how to discuss the issue of immigration by involving xenophobia and bigotry.

And now you rely on illegal i immigration. No one is going to argue that illegal immigration should be restricted as much as possible, but like most bigots you are quick to tar legal migrants with the brush of illegal migrants.

So it is sucked from your thumb, then. Like most of what you have written.

Those caps have now all been lifted. Part of the deal of being an EU member is that other EU members can work here, just as Brits can work anywhere in the EU. Why don't you suggest that unemployed Brits look for work elsewhere in the EU, as they are entitled to?

If the contents of what you write are any indication, I would not think that intelligence is a requirement for whatever job you might be clinging onto.

What a stupid bloody statement.
I have called you a bigot; not a racist.
You posts stink of bigotry, yet you try to deflect that by resorting to that tired old stereotype about white South Africans all being racist bastards.
No, I do not deny that apartheid happened.
Yes, as a white South African living there at the time, I did unavoidably benefit from it.
No, I am neither a racist nor a bigot.
Next cheap shot?"
Strike that last sentence from my post above. Stray cut and paste.
"Honestly, this debate is like soooooo 2005.
It's almost as though nobody has noticed the complete collapse of the neoliberal economic model. See the Federal Reserve lowering interest rates to 0%? That's the collapse of the US economy that is. Mass immigration didn't help them.
It's really quite simple - the UK does not produce enough goods and exportable services to pay for its way in the world. It is, effectively, very poor. It has tried to avoid the consequences of its lack of productivity through a number of wheezes including privatisations of state assets, manipulation of compound-interest credit devices, property-based asset bubbles, and wage-deflating mass-immigration events. Neoliberalism, in other words.
It's over. When the tide goes out, and the grey, wrinkly skin of the British economy is finally exposed, immigrants won't want to come here. We will have to go through the painful task of reforming our economy and industry to compete effectively with other industrialised economies - a task we have put off for thirty years. And, I'm afraid, that task will include taking ""native"" Brits off benefits and out of quangos, and out doing the ""shitty"" jobs that they (and the politicians that rely on their votes) have previously been keen to avoid.
I'll see you all down at the strawberry farm."
"This is just off-the-pier fantasy. The social benefits available in the UK are far inferior to those available in most of the rest of western Europe. Indeed, France has been recently complaining that French investment bankers made redundant from British banks in London have been coming back to France to partake of the far more generous benefits available in France!
By the way, excellent rational posts MungoTeazer!"
"Phillipe (""Good British name"" as Al Murray might say)
After recent revelations about the lies we have all been living for the past 50 years, your faith in any ""official statistics"" is quite touching.
It's also brave to admit being an ""economist"" in these times. I would think that profession deserves to rank slightly below ""banker"" in the scheme off utterly discredited and risible occupations by now..?
However, market forces may yet prevail - all the Polish workers I know are now off to more € stable countries anyway, leaving submerged mortgages behind them. So I suspect you will shortly be needed in Poland to try and persuade them that a tsunami of British plumbers is going to be good for them. Please feel free practise what you preach on the mobility of labour."
"We live in a system of worldwide capitalism which causes millions of people to cross borders to seek a better life. Are people ignorant enough to believe that the majority of immigrants actually want to be here; they would rather be at home with their friends and their family. Many stay in foreign countries alone, desperately scraping enough money together to live and to also send home.
Of course immigrants drive down wages, simple capitalist rules dictate that. If we lived under a more equitable system with some semblance of world equality then migration would be reduced to a trickle."
"bearsall




Hardly incoherent. What you appear to be advocating is banning immigration and hiking local wages. That's what I would call xenophobic protectionism.


The repetition does not detract from the truth of the statement.

I

And how does that contradict my statement that (legal, I perhaps should have said) migration has benefited this country? There is nothing contradictory with agreeing that there should controls on legal migration from outside the EU (which already exist and which are bout be tightened) and holding the view that migration does benefit the UK.


Frankly, much of what I have read here could be found on the websites of the BNP and UKIP.

Here's a good explanation. I am here. So are many thousands of my compatriots. We work hard. We pay our taxes. We obey the laws. We buy property here. We invest here. We hardly ever leach off the benefits system. We even sometimes steal a local and marry him or her. In short, we are a benefit, not a burden, to the UK."
"I should also mention that many migrants have also started, and operate, businesses in this country.
What do businesses do?
They employ people!"
"Mungo
If you have a British passport it makes you British, though many of your posts have a underlying anti-Britishness to them.
Native population would mean those born in a country, those children born to parents of a country and those who have moved to a country legally and become naturalised citizens. Not really hard is it?
If there is a need for more labour in a country then employing skilled migrants is required but in the UK there is not a need but a demand. That demand is from people wanting to pay lower wages. If there was a disparity between wages earnt and the benefits people get there would be a motivation to get off the dole/income support/incapcity benefit but in many cases people are financially worse off for taking a job because then they have to pay council tax, rent/mortgage, childcare costs etc etc. Surprise surprise many choose to stay on benefits.
From your posts you just seem to be an advocate of utterly uncontrolled free for all in the employment market. I think that will lead to large numbers of British unemployed, an ever increasing welfare state, violence towards immigrants and will eventually bankrupt the country. We are already in a financial position worse than the 1970's when the IMF had to come in to the UK.
Also I really don't believe that you actually see any of the downsides of allowing mass immigration. How many people are queueing up to do your job for half the salary? Got any children who cannot find any casual work as all the jobs are filled at lower than minimum wage? Know any labourers, brickies, chippies, sparkies put out of work by cheaper migrant workers? Know any gangmasters making an absolute fortune from shipping in cheap labour paying them peanuts and charging a fortune for bed and board?
I do."
"""In short, we are a benefit, not a burden, to the UK. ""
There it is in a nutshell Mungo. Are you a benefit? Has there been a cost benefit analysis to your position? No there hasn't so you are just giving an opinion."
You Elizabethans are nasty.
"[MungoTeazer]:

I wouldn't want to deny that, but neither is population growth, nor the methods Nature has for regulating it . . . I recommend observing, under controlled scientific conditions, the growth curve of a culture of microorganisms and the various phases it goes through . . .

That, I suggest, is because it only in the past century that the ""natural barriers"" to human migration have been removed . . .
Thanks to their development of science and technology, especially over the past 500 years, Europeans have created a materially very wealthy society (in Europe, America, Australia etc.), which too many others, rather than going to the trouble of creating their own, as the Japanese, for example, have done, want to come and partake in.
On a small scale, why not? But on the large scale that has and is continuing to happen (in the name of ""globalisation"" and the short-sighted material self-interests of state, capital and immigrants), this will inevitably lead (is leading) to massive problems, which we can either face up to and try to avert, or leave to a ruthless Mother Nature to solve for us . . ."
"qwerty99666

None of my posts have an underlying ""anti-Britishness"" to them, unless you are going to argue that the Daily Mail, the Sun and the BNP have a monopoly on what constitutes ""Britishness"". I am anti bigotry and xenophobia.
I am very fond of the UK (this country has been very good to me) and love living here. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. But that does not mean that I have to uncritically accept xenophobia dressed up as patriotism.
As for me having a British passport making me British, that was simply an inheritance rather than a birthright. The passport aside, I was no different from any other South African who immigrated here (except I did not need to bother with visas; I simply swapped passports on the plane over). And what of all those migrants who have taken out British citizenship since they moved here? Do you also regard them as British?

So, you have no problem with legal migrants (who will after 5 years become entitled to citizenship) then?

Blame the government and British business then. Do not blame migrants.

Read my above posts again.

Well, persuade the government to make British workers better skilled and better educated, and persuade the government to clamp down on gangmasters (who are a problem of illegal, not legal immigration).
Persuade British workers to be as productive as possible.
Persuade those on the dole that there is more self-fulfillment in a job than a benefits cheque.
Do not indulge in kneejerk protectionism, which addresses only the symptoms., not the causes."
"qwerty99666


On what basis would you say that I am not a benefit to the UK?
Go on then!"
"MungoTeazer

A likely story, considering the nonsense in the rest of your post, why should I believe you?

The wonders of a deluded mind, too bad their they ""informed"" from all the wrong sources.

The only one coming out with bigotry and racism is you, ""your women"", what does that mean? How do you know I am? Or who one of ""my"" women are? You just assume that someone that someone that is going to ""hurt"" me, so some women was stupid enough to marry you, her loss, nothing to do with me.

See above.

I see you do not defend the fact that you are here for the money, or that you will run off back to your little paradise once you are done here.

No more or less unsubstantiated than yours, can we get some of your ""friends"" on record?

Nice tactic, try and change the target. I am talking about all immigration, legal and illegal. I am not tarring anyone with anything, just that you are here at the opportunity cost of people who already live here, and the only reason you are here is to earn more money.

Seeing as the government does such a piss poor job of educating them, I doubt I could get through to them. Have you heard about the adverts on Romanian TV which tell people to go to the UK and claim benfits? The cap was only lifted once the Poles started going home, but again you miss the point I am trying to make. That for so many years, workers have been imported from abroad at the cost of people in the UK, millions are on the scrap heap and now they are being labelled as ""scroungers"" and ""benefit cheats"" by a government who wants to look like it is being ""tough"" on a problem that it created!

If the contents of your posts are anything to go by, you are still too stupid to take my low skilled job from me!

What exactly am I intolerant to? To people who suffer in this country? People of all colours and races who are unemployed because this country allows idiots like you to come here (British passport or no British passport).

Stereotype? Your posts have shown a complete disregard for the suffering of the people in this country, and your defend your actions with no conscience. If anything you re-enforce that stereotype.

Yet did nothing about it, as you have shown you are quite apt at.

Then why do you need to make that statement?

I am a firm believer that the world dishes out justice in the end. There will be a point in the future when you will remember this conversation you had with me, when I told you that you will get what you deserve eventually. Happy holiday's."
"Mungo

You are absolutely spot on.

If that's what you want to call trying to protect the living standards of the British (of all skin colours), fair enough.
I called your post incoherent by the way because of the rather strange reference to ""full employment of regardless of economic reason (as the Soviet bloc countries did before 1989)""

That's if the statement is true. But even then, repeating an assertion is boring for the rest of us who well understand your position, and an its an incompetent way of arguing - you should be looking for ways of justifying your position rather than tediously restating it. That you fall back on this stuff again and again rather makes me wonder whether you actually can justify yourself.

Yes there is. If immigration benefits us economically, surely it must benefit us whether it's legal or illegal.

This is a good explanation?

You really don't get it, do you? I'm not suggesting you're not an upright citizen in every way. The point is that successive UK governments have consistently used immigrant labour to keep wage inflation down. Consider nursing. The UK has always had trouble attracting people into nursing. That's because nursing is poorly paid. Faced with the option of putting up wages or hiring foreign labour, governments have consistently hired abroad. I believe that there are as many Zimbabwean nurses living here than in Zimbabwe. I am not suggesting that they don't do a good job. Just that if HMG had dealt with the problem by raising wages, a lot more British people would have been in work, we wouldn't have the underclass we do, and we'd have a much fairer society.
Oh, and Zimbabwe would have a lot more nurses. They could do with them, don't you think?"
How is that possible? If he is employed by a company, then he has to pay tax on a PAYE basis. If he has his own business or is self employed, then he would have to pay business tax. Even if he were to set up as a non-dom, he would still have to pay business tax on profits generated in the UK, as only profits generated outside the UK are UK tax free.
"So, let's knock together two Guardian statistical obsessions:
I get my shop's door kicked in (by indigenous chavs, not Poles). On police advice I replace it with something that would stop King Kong. This creates employment (manufacture and install said door). It does stop the local chavs from doing it again - wonderful - crime has gone down!
I need to replace one of the shop workers. I have someone in view, but I am required to recruit on the open market, so I spend £300 on advertising and half a day of my time interviewing. I still think my original candidate is the best person, so I offer her the job. I have created extra employment in the advertising industry! The government's diversity policy is paying off.
Repeat across the whole country and you will appreciate why statistics can be simultaneously perfectly true and entirely misleading and why people are so fed up. Extra GDP per capita is entirely useless unless it's spent on things that actually make life better."
"MigrationWatch is a right-wing front, like Policy Exchange, whose aim is to spread lies about immigrants in the media.
These are picked up by racists and fascists to attack foreigners. That's what the more or less open BNP supporters are doing here. Old timers will know who has posted support for the BNP out of the commenters above (though if you mention names of the people who have advocated attending BNP camps, people who have coordinated anti-Muslims and anti-semitic posters on Cif, your post gets deleted. Apparently it is 'offensive' to criticise Nazis on CiF - to the Nazis that is, the poor sensitive souls! And, of course, these people are allowed to retain posting rights here! No problem with advocating mass murder and racial discrimination on CiF! It's 'free speech' you see).
What needs investigating is the ability of the right to get its lies broadcast so easily, whether by fabricating 'evidence' - Policy Exchange (i.e. a cabal of right-wing 'journalists' and politicians deliberately spreading misinformation) - or distorting and making up figures - MigrationWatch's particular game.
It is all designed to tap into the generally incohate anti-foreigner/black/muslim hatred that the right sustains in this country.
If the bankers and millionaries are robbing the economy and plunging us all into desperation then the ruling class obviously needs to get us fighting amongst ourselves. That is what this whole campaign of lies and misinformation is designed to do."
"HarryTheHorse

And how do you work that out? Here you get a house, you get allowances for any kids you have and you get benfits. Also, it is far more difficult to get benefits in France, they don't just hand them out to anyone like we do here! They also look after French people first, rather than handing out lavish homes in their capital to people who have just set foot in their country! Then on top of that there is the whole ""if you live in France, you are French first"", is that something you advocate as well? Or are you only going to pick and choose the bits from France that help re-enforce your argument?
Your adulation of MungoTeazer doesn't help your cause one bit."
"Correction to last my last post:
My first sentence should head read, ""I wouldn't want to deny that, but so too is population growth and the methods Nature has for regulating it."""
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"How many of the ant-immigrant crowd support an emigration ban? Come to that, how many emigrants are posting against UK immigration from abroad? Certainly we have had that before - a Scot sitting in Australia railing against immigration to the UK on CiF!
Where abroad do they think British people should be banned from travelling and working?
Do they support the dispossession and deportation of British people working abroad? Perhaps they would support the expulsion and expropriation of British people from, say, Indonesia or China, or Argentina and Nigeria, at the hands of local anti-immigrant right-wingers?"
"bearsall

The countries of the Soviet bloc featherbedded their citizens in jobs for the sake of jobs, achieving full employment simply by placing everyone in a ""job"". We all know what economic powerhouses those countries were in 1989.

You assume that what is now the underclass would have been employable in the first instance. Or is there some patriotic duty on British employers to employ only British workers, regardless of ability, competence and willingness to do the job?"
"_AT_socialistMike
I think you need to sit down and have a nice cup of tea. I also think you need to acknowledge that Philippe Legrain and the IPPR are very, very far from being socialists.
But really the whole pro/anti-immigration argument is becoming pretty much irrelevant. What is relevant is that the way that we have organised our economy over the last 20-odd years is starting to tumble into both figurative and literal bankruptcy. The rise and fall of immigration is just a side effect of this.
That the neoliberals expound mass-immigration as an ideological positive, when it was really a pragmatic necessity for their system, is what corrupts the debate."
"Luminari and Bearsall.
I may well recommend a post of yours when you engage with Mungo Teazer's question about why British people are less willing to seek work in continental Europe... Until then at least, he's winning the argument."
"'I think you need to sit down and have a nice cup of tea.'
Perhaps you need to be a bit less patronising! I don't believe I ever claimed the IPPR was socialist, so I don't know what you mean."
"I didn't need to work anything out. It is documented that French investment bankers have been returning to France to draw benefits because they are higher in France than in the UK.

'My cause'? You need to chill out and get a sense of proportion."
"_AT_socialistMike
What I am saying is that elements of the right support mass immigration (for economic reasons), and other elements of the right oppose it (for nationalist reasons).
This is as much a right/right debate as a left/right one. Your posts would have made more sense if they had begun with ""Much as I loathe everything that Legrain stands for......"""
"Sekundra

The revellers in Spain and Greece do our reputation no favours, if you were a Spanish company and you had an application from an English person, what image would you have in your head?
There is also the issue of learning foreign languages, something which we are quite terrible at in this country. This is again a failing on the part of the government. While European nationals will learn multiple languages and have a high proficiency in English.
Then there is the kind of people our education system is churning out, 12,000 leaving school without being able to read or write, are they seriously going to go and look for work in Europe? We have a benefits culture that needs to be stamped out, and this can only be done by providing a good standard of education and employment to people.
Then there is the promotional aspect, did you know that British employers were advertising jobs in India in he 1960's? You know this illusion that all these people came over in boats and swapped the land? It is all a lie. They advertised the jobs and handed out visa's in India, because the workers in the UK were striking and demanding better pay and conditions. The people from India would do the work for less, and they wouldn't speak the language so they wouldn't know their rights. Then in the 1980's our entire manufacturing base was moved aboard, because it was cheaper. Compare us to Germany, who has a strong manufacturing base and a trade surplus! Our weak Pound is going to hit us hard because we don't make anything here, we import it.
There was a time when English skills were valued, remember Auf Wiedersehen Pet? People in this country did go to Europe and get jobs. But we don't train our people properly any more, their skills are not in demand. So they are stuck here.
Does that answer your question?"
"So, qwerty, your sources for these words of great wisdom include the Sun, the Daily Mail and the People!
You having a laugh, mate?
Mind you, it all makes sense now."
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"Sekundra,
Why should British people be forced to emigrate because of neo-liberalism?"
"writingisbest



What are you on about? What Anglophobia?
For the record, my blood is 1/2 English, 1/4 Welsh and 1/4 South African. In other words, I am what is commonly regarded as ""white"", although that is entirely irrelevant to the debate. The same arguments were apply if I were black or Asian in ethnicity."
"The government has two choices.
Either it can pander to this growing wave of xenophobia and try to outflank the BNP, UKIP and the nasty wing of the Tories, or it can deal with it head on and make it clear to people that their economic woes are not caused by migrants in this country.
I think we all know which route SuperGordo (Saviour Of The World!) will take."
"'What I am saying is that elements of the right support mass immigration (for economic reasons), and other elements of the right oppose it (for nationalist reasons).
This is as much a right/right debate as a left/right one. Your posts would have made more sense if they had begun with ""Much as I loathe everything that Legrain stands for......""'
This isn't a contradiction. It is standard practice. The right, representing the interests of employers, both exploit and demonise their victims. They support low wages and a divided workforce in order to keep them low. The racist right supports them in this - they attack immigrant workers rather than the bosses who exploit them in what are often terrible and illegal conditions.
I still don't understand why you are directing these points to me or why you think I should disagree with the post's main point - that MigrationWatch twists the truth for political reasons."
"If we can avoid any more ad hominem attacks, maybe someone can refresh my memory. Some time ago - I have been looking and can not find it - there was a government report that suggested that the impact of immigration (legal) was a net increase of something in the order of 6 billion pounds.
There was much discussion at the time, but I do not recall that the figures were ever disproved.
Illegal immigration is completely different. By its nature it is secretive, (They can not claim benefits, obviously!) and are exploited by crooks to make money. Their work is often ""sweat-shop"" or marginal (remember the Chinese mollusc gatherers?). NOONE should be working in these conditions, and that is a responsibility of the government to address these criminal activities. they do not seriously do so, perhaps we should be asking why not?
As has been pointed, you can not have your cake and eat it. If there were shortages of skilled work and this country actively sought support from immigration, it is a bit rich to complain that these same people have remained behind once the ""crisis"" is over. Sorry, ""cart"" and ""horse"" come to mind.
I do agree with lumanari (I can't believe I'm saying this) on one point. the education of children in this country is now a national (and international) disgrace. However, putting that right will take a generation, and in the mean time, there are still jobs to be done, and ill qualified Brits to do them.
And as this appears to be necessary in order to comment, I am 50% Scot, 50% English. (There could be some Irish blood - through the Scottish side, and possibly even a bit of Welsh through the ""English"" side, but so what?)"
"MungoTeazer, good on you.
You are kicking the pathetic bigots all over this thread, and it is a real indication of their Big Stupid that they don't even realise it."
So do I. In his most recent post, he demonstrated that he is able to express a sensible, well-reasoned and coherent view.
"Mungo,
You are not aware, then, that on average people implicitly obey their own ethnic interests? That's something you and many others need to understand when you encounter a migration enthusiast or restrictionist.
There is nothing inherently wrong with pursuing one's collective interests. It isn't xenophobia, for example, for the English to reject immigrant populations in their midst. It is normal, healthy and natural. In fact, it would be a kind of madness not to do so. Likewise, it is normal and healthy and natural for immigrants to demand access to resources in their adopted home. This is life, and it cannot be changed.
The one exception to the rule - the only one - is the native European ""liberal"", for want of a better term, who has a weak ethnocentric sense. How that weakness came about, because it is a new phenomenon dating perhaps only from the late 1950s, is an nice question, and one I can ask you.
How did you become detached from your own ethnic interests, and thereby come to support alien interests?"
"Mungo
I am not the one stating as a defiitive fact that your presence in the UK is a benfit to the nation, you are doing that. All I pointed out is that no cost benefit anlysis has been done to prove one way or the other.
I notice you didn't respond to the points raised in my last post.
socialistmike
Good to see you again, barking as usual ;)"
"FreemanMoxy
If people like you think I am a Big Stupid, I consider that a complement!
If wanting to look after the interests of the people in this country, regardless of their colour, race or religion, makes me a bigot in your eyes, then so be it.
Just that you will have to change the definition of bigot to the Alf Garnett caricature that hates foreigners, into someone who is sick and tired of a policy which has only befitted big business, and left people in this country unemployed, poor and destitute.
Which makes you, as someone who benefits from immigration but pays none of the costs, an Imperialist."
My previous post was directed at writingisbest
"qwerty99666

I have set out why I believe my presence is a benefit. It is for you to suggest to me reasons why it might not be.

I responded to all points raised in your last post directed at me. I am wasting enough time on this thread without having to respond to every post."
"Strange really, why haven't we learnt from history that migration justified on a economic basis doesn't work log term because the economic situation changes. Economic cycles rarely stretch more than 5-6 years, unless some of the less intelligent had really bought Gordon's line on ""no more boom and bust""?
In the early to middle 60s our production of clothing in and around Lancashire was struggling economically and the simple answer was to allow widescale immigration from Pakistan to lower wages - I seem to recall it worked out about 2s 6d a week less.
Well, in less than a decade, the jobs went anyway and you were stuck with a swollen population with no work and absolutely nothing in common in places like Burnley. If you care to check the unemployment statistics for our immigrant groups, you'll find they are considerably higher (by a factor of 3 for Bangladeshis). So did UK PLC make a profit from the deal? I think that's highly unlikely, especially considering you need to be earning around £24k to actually make a contribution.
There is some hope in that the new generation of migrants are more mobile and will actually go when times are bad, but the lesson from history is very clear. MIGRATION SHOULD ONLY EVER BE ON A SHORT TERM BASIS. No citizenship, no permanent rights of residence, no right to bring extended family and no benefits."
"Mungo,
I am not ""advocating"" ethnic interests. I am explaining the world to you. South Africa before and after the fall of white supremacist government supports everything I am saying. Peoples (not individuals) DO pursue their own ethnic interests. It cannot be altered except through genocide of one or party, which is the process now in train in Western Europe with the slow, soft genocide of the native Europeans.
This is the truth, my friend. Don't deal with it by emoting. That is an abdication.
You have left South Africa. Why?"
"haardvark

Germany tried that with ""Gastarbeiters"" and it was a failure, with the workers being allowed to stay and reunite with their families.
Another example, was the abhorrent migrant labour system practised on the mines in South Africa in the apartheid era.
What you suggest is not only unworkable; it is also degrading and a violation of human rights."
Terrible spelling there in my last post!
"writingisbest

You puzzle me. In one sentence you use the phrase ""white supremacist government"" (implying that you are opposed to racism) and in the next you talk of the ""slow, soft genocide of the native Europeans"", which is pure white supremacist talk. Do make up your mind.
Define what you regard as ""ethnic"". Is that based on race or simply on nationality (regardless or race)?

If you bothered to read my posts above, you would know why.
If you must now, I felt like a personal change and there was a job opportunity in the UK. Pretty much the same reasons that people emigrate the world over."
"""What you suggest is not only unworkable; it is also degrading and a violation of human rights. ""
Mungo
Any last smidgeon of respect I had for your point has gone with that sentence. Many countries practice a system as you were discussing with haardvark and it works very well for worker, country and native populations. I have done it myself when working in Canada for two years, at the end of my contract where I earned plenty of money, paid my taxes and was only allowed that opportunity because there were no Canadians to fill the job I took, I left as I had no legal right to stay.
It is not a basic human right to pitch up in any country you choose and begin to work there."
"Sorry, did everyone miss this gem:

WHAT???? So illegal immigration, where people are kept out of the legal system of PAYE at the hands of all sorts of shady characters who force them to work for a substandard wage is just as good as a person like me, who came over as a legal immigrant to find work and contribute just as much as a British citizen?
How do I steal a job?"
"qwerty99666
What haardvark is suggesting is not a system of temporary work visas/contracts, which is practised the world over (and is understood as such by people working temporary contracts). No one (least of all myself) has a problem with that.
Read what he says again

He is suggesting that all migration can only be on a temporary basis. In other words, people will be allowed to remain indefinitely in a country while they are needed (but with no family and no rights) but when there is no longer an economic need for them (even if its years down the line), they will be tossed out of the country like a used rag.
I stand by what I wrote."
"_AT_MungoTeazer
""I repeat, why are so many Brits are incapable of recognising, let alone exploiting, the fact that they can freely work in any one of the other 26 EU member states?""
The answer is surely obvious?
For one thing its because there have, in recent years, been far fewer jobs for foreigners in the other EU States. Most haven't liberalised their labour markets the way the UK has.
In recent years many have had worse unemployment than we have, many (e.g France and Poland) have dealt with this by exporting workers here. British workers then have to compete with surplus labour created by policies of governments they have no control over and no say in electing, which I think is one of the problems with the EU.
Back in the days when the UK had worse unemployment problems than Germany some workers did indeed go there to find work, though on nothing like the scale that we have seen from Poland to here.
Either way I personally think that there is a problem with the half-way house system of the EU - treating other nations' citizens as your own doesn't make sense in the absence of a unified tax/welfare/social spending system. Either have independent nations or a single super-state, the half-and-half situation creates all sorts of anomalies (e.g. all EU students except the English are exempt from Scottish university tuition fees).
But the most important factor is that there is not the same disparity in living costs - there is no equivalent for a Brit to a Pole coming to the West, in terms of being able to work cheap, undercut the locals, and make the money go much further back home.
Do you really think a great mass exodus of working class Brits, an army of painters and decorators, perhaps, going to France, say, would be able to find work? In a country that has ameliorated its structural youth unemployment problem, caused by its own labour laws, by exporting masses of them to the UK (250,000 in London alone)? And that they would be able to undercut the locals by making the Euros go 10 times as far back home? The situation with East Europeans simply doesn't apply in reverse. I find it hard to understand why this is not obvious to you.
Your reference to '26 states' (rather than just the richer western ones) suggests you seriously think large numbers of Brits could go to Poland and Latvia, find work, despite those nations still very high unemployment levels, and then somehow translate Zloties into Pounds at the same rate that Poles do the reverse.
Incidentally, I do so hope you are not a WHITE south african. I know nothing of your personal situation but white South Africans in general are the inheritors of decades of what you call 'feather bedding' and are in a vastly stronger position in the labour market than they would otherwise have been when they come here precisely because of that inheritance. This is particularly true of the English speaking ones with British passports.
For someone who had benefited twice, once from the inherited privileges of being white in SA (denied to their black countrymen), and secondly from the historical privilege of a UK passport (denied to most of their countrymen black or Afrikaans), to then, from that position of privilege, to start self-righteously lecturing Brit workers about their reluctance to face the rigours of pure free market competition would be a trifle hypocritical I think. Perhaps that is not your situation, but it does seem to apply to most white south africans in the UK. It would be better for one in that position to at least ruefully acknowledge that they are in a weak position to take a moral high ground before giving views on such matters.
Of course if you are black none of that applies and you are free to lecture away. Personally I favour generous immigration policies to the poorer members of the former British Empire, I think we have some debts to pay there. The EU is quite another matter."
"Guardianistas can chant stats all day: aside from the nanny-employing classes, it just doesn't square at all with people's experience.
In any event, the real problem isn't economic. It's one of control. Ordinary people weren't asked whether they wanted mass immigration. It just happened. The result: schools where many (in some cases, most) pupils don't speak English; a perverse denigration of indigent culture and habits; the disappearance of many of the low-skill, casual jobs which thousands of people count on; and a more or less constant stream of multicultural cant, rant, and cliche from the political elite.
I am pro-immigration. But it has to happen at a pace people are comfortable with; it has to happen with people's conscious assent; and it has to be on the basis of integration and assimilation with the clear message that the native culture is the dominant culture."
"That's ok MugoTeazer, the alternative is not to allow immigration or at least, anything other than very small scale, very specialized migration.
How can the example I gave actually be positive for the people of Britain? If we hadn't done what we did, then the industry would have died anyway and we wouldn't have had a legacy of divided communities and the expense of supporting a bloated population and their decendents. Bangladeshi unemployment is 3 times that of the wider poipulation, Pakistani more than twice - it's all there on the national statistics site, if you'd care to look and like most government sponsored figures, likely to be somewhat optimistic. Don't you think we really, really could have done without that? There is no heroic work-ethic in these communities whose culture often dictates 50% of the population doesn't work - that's 50% who still need health care, benefits, housing and street lighting.
To also pretend these jobs wouldn't be done anyway if we didn't have this level of migration is simply a lie. Being alive before 1997 and the resumption of immigration on this scale would have told you that.
In theory the job of government is to protect the interests of the electorate. This doesn't extend beyond this franchise, which is the point many seem to miss here when arguing about nationalist this, nationalist that. The primary beneficiary of immigration is always the immigrant, this seems to me to be a ridiculous example of ""tail wags dog"" all supported by big business and a gaggle of useful idiots who seem to support uncontrolled migration as if it was some kind of religious duty. Then to some of course, so is self-flagellation. It doesn mean the rest of us should show any great desire to join in.
People should get smart don't express any hatred to the individuals involved. Express the hatred to those who swore blind they'd best represent YOU at the last general election, when the record on post-war immigration isn't good."
"_AT_socialistMike
What I am pointing out is that the main post was written by a member of that element of the right that supports immigration as a way to magnify the exploitation of labour.
Therefore your critique of Migrationwatch should begin by acknowledging this point. Otherwise it just appears that you are supporting Legrain's whole agenda.
Which I would suspect that you are very much not."
"MungoTeazer
""He is suggesting that all migration can only be on a temporary basis. In other words, people will be allowed to remain indefinitely in a country while they are needed (but with no family and no rights) but when there is no longer an economic need for them (even if its years down the line), they will be tossed out of the country like a used rag.""
My view is 100% the opposite. My problem with the East European influx is precisely that so many of them _are_ on a short term basis. If they were coming here to make a permanent life, to make a long-term commitment to the country, the problems would be greatly reduced. They would be thinking in terms of UK living costs, of the costs of child-care, pensions and housing here, and so would be much less liable to undercut the locals. Those East Europeans who are here to stay I think will greatly benefit this country.
Furthermore you would not get, for example, east europeans' children being born here at NHS expense, getting an English language education at UK taxpayer expense only for them to then go back to Poland when the time comes for them to start paying into the system.
The problem, and its one the EU is to blame for, is one of continual churn, of cheap labour just coming and going with no long term commitment to this country, and continually blocking those with such a long-term commitment from getting into the labour market, and allowing employers to get away without being prepared to train anyone."
"qwerty : 'socialistmike
Good to see you again, barking as usual ;)'
What class!
Do you have a point to contest with me or are you sticking with insults today?"
"formerlefty
I found your post constructive and informative until I reached this snippy little paragraph

If you had bothered to read my posts above, you would know the answer to that. Yes, I am an English speaking white South African who acquired a British passport on ancestral grounds (if you can consider my mother an ancestor!).

As someone who has lived here for nearly 10 years and made this country my permanent home, I am entitled to write what the hell I like about Brit workers."
"haardvark

So, you would have them all (whether or not born in the UK and regardless iof they have ever known another country) deported back to South Asia: every last one of them?"
"formerlefty

So what would you have done about it?"
"haarvaark : 'That's ok MugoTeazer, the alternative is not to allow immigration or at least, anything other than very small scale, very specialized migration.'
What about emigration? Do you want that 'small scale and specialized'? Should British people have the right to work and live where they like or not?"
"Mungo
I realise you are having three or four differing discussions but you cannot have read at least one of mine. In that I stated that I do not blame migrants at all for wanting to come to the UK, to work and earn money to better themselves. I blame the government for allowing the situation to develop in the first place, I blame the government for allowing it to continue and I blame the government for lying about the economic benefits to the native population of mass migration.
I have no problem at all with legal migration. My partner works for man who was kicked out of Uganda by Amin in the 70's who has since built up a chain of pharmacies and is now worth 28million quid and employs hundreds if not thousands. Good for him, the UK is a better place for him being here but cherry picking some success stories does not make an argument for mass migration. IF and I mean if there is a need for mass migration of skilled labour I blame successive governments for dumbing down the education system. What there is no need at all for is mass migration of unskilled labour as the UK has as I've already mentioned 8 million people economically inactive many living off benefits. Again I blame the government for this. UK plc cannot afford to keep these people in the style they have become used to and in a couple of years there is going to be a massive reality check for many. ie no more free lunches.
Again for clarity my gripe is with those in power who peddle the idea that mass immigration is a brilliant economic benefit for the nation and the host population. I do not, and have not in any of my posts, blamed the migrant who is willing to come to the UK and work hard."
"I don't quite get it. Isn't there a minimum wage? The immigrants can't undercut this can they? Otherwise employers would be commitng a crime. In which case, report THEM.
If a legal migrant pays his tax, he has no other obligation to spend his money here, he can send it back to wherever he wants. Just as the British worker whose job he stole can keep his money under a mattress. Does the immigrant not eat in Britain? Go to the cinema?
I understand he may not have a family to keep here, but then shouldn't the incentive be to let him bring them here?
If you say the Brits are losing their jobs to Poles, what makes them more desirable than the locals...if we assume they both earn minimum wage?"
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"'What I am pointing out is that the main post was written by a member of that element of the right that supports immigration as a way to magnify the exploitation of labour.
Therefore your critique of Migrationwatch should begin by acknowledging this point. Otherwise it just appears that you are supporting Legrain's whole agenda.'
I don't believe I have denied this. Once again you leave me at a loss. I am able to criticise employers for exploitaton and Migration Watch for lying, aren't I?"
"socialistmike
For all possible scenarios and arguments or discussions all I have to say is ""respectfully I disagree with you!"""
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"Socialist Mike:

The two are not equivalent. The question you should ask is: ""Should other countries have the right to set their own immigration policies or not?""
There is no point saying that British (or any other nationality) have the ""right"" to emigrate since it is up to the other countries whether to let them in or not."
"I don't understand Socialistmike. In most of the world that's exactly the conditions most British migrants experience. We quite definitely do not have the right to live and work where we like.
When I first worked in Switzerland (long time ago, it's much easier now) I needed 5 years experience, a degree, a pre-arranged address to live in and at least £20k in the bank to prove I wouldn't be a burden. I had to arrange health insurance at my own expense. Breaking the law would mean instant repatriation and a bill for the priviledge (a colleague unknowingly employed an illegal migrant and was billed 22,000 chf - about 10,000GBP for her repatriation).
In return I got a 9 month work permit with no hope of citizenship (takes 11 years and costs a fortune) or benefits (2 years qualification)
The question is arse-about tit Mike. The question should be why is it so easy for so many to migrate to the UK compared to a British citizen to most of the world outside the EU? You can become a British citizen after only 5 years work, you can claim universal benefits from day 1 - like child benefit - other become available after 18 months. If you work less than 9 months, it's also possible to pay NO TAX AT ALL.
Far, far too generous."
"Don't worry, the Daily Star summarised it all on their front page yesterday.
""THEY'VE STOLEN ALL OUR JOBS""
Of course, Migrationwatch have uttered no criticism for this clearly inflammatory headline derived from their study.
ALL our jobs? Since 2001, no British man or woman has found a new job, they were all taken by an immigrant...says here"
"bearsal
""Brits won't do the work because it's not well paid enough. Faced with putting their prices up or going foreign, most employers go foreign.
What would have happened if they hadn't been able to import foreign workers? They'd have had to raise wages until they could tempt Brits off the sofa or from other jobs.""
In some cases perhaps.
But in many cases, not.
My boss would sack me before paying me - or anyone - 10 quid an hour.
Kick out all immigrants tomorrow and that teenage waitress in a country pub is still going to get £7.00 an hour UNLESS the husnband and wife management go bonkers and give her £15.00 quid an hour (more than they earn) funded by raising the cost of a plate of chips to £6.00 and a packet of crisps to £1.99.
Higher wages must be paid for somehow - either the company absorbs the losses or passes it onto consumers."
"fusuym
No you are right you don't get it.
Shocking I know but many employers pay cash in hand, many pay below the legal minimum wage, some use gangmasters who force migrants to pay for bed and board at exhorbitant rates giving the worker an equivalent wage of a few pound an hour. Some allow workers to work in terrible conditions, remember the Chinese cockle pickers? Mass migration is such a profitable scheme many criminal gangs have given up on drugs and smuggle people instead.
An example for you:
British worker in work pays tax and there is one person (or family) using the services of the country (schools, NHS, transports, roads etc). Employer takes opportunity to replace British worker with migrant who is willing to work for less money. Result is migrant in work paying less tax (lower wage), perhaps sending money out of the country (to family at home), British worker on the dole(taking up more tax), two people at least(if Brit doesn't have family) now needing to use the services of the country. Now times that by a few million and explain to me how that is a benefit to the nation? The only people who have gained in this situation is the employer and the migrant."
"Hmmm .... conspiracy theory. 'Big buisiness and a gaggle of useful idiots' all in conspiracy to do the honest English yeoman out of his birthright.
As far as I am aware no one supports 'uncontrolled migration' except for anarchist fringe groups, such as 'No Borders'. Migration of people from outside the EU is highly controlled. People over-stay their visas but unless you want an ID Card controlled police state, there's not much you can do about that, other than to catch them when they finally exit the country. Free movement of workers within the EU is governed by our membership of the EU, and also permits Britons to work or retire in Europe. So there is nothing much you can do about that unless you are planning to rescind the repicrocal right of Britons to live and work in Europe. Somehow I don't think you'll find much popular support for that policy!
After all these posts attacking our SA friend, we still haven't seen any vaguely sensible or practical alternative policy. The government is introducing a points system so other than making it even more rigorous, and exclusive, what else are you going to do? EU citizens are here by treaty obligation so unless you want to pull out of the EU and piss off millions of Brits who benefit directly from EU open borders, what are you going to do?
So what are you going to do?"
"Haardvark:

Well yes. I think Socialist Mike's may be getting confused with those socialist states that needed to BUILD WALLS to keep their own people IN."
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"qwerty99666



So, you have no issue with the Ugandan Asians, who no one can deny have hugely benefited this country? However, at the time there was a great deal of of xenophobic scare-mongering (along the lines expressed on this thread) about allowing them in.
There are 3 issues here:
1) Illegal immigration: No one denies that the should be prevented but too many people confuse this with legal immigration.
2) Legal immigration from the EU: That is part of the deal for the UK to be a member of the EU. The government cannot restrict it without defaulting on its EU obligations. In any event, most of those Eastern Europeans everyone was getting so hysterical about are heading home now that the UK economy has hit the buffer, after having greatly benefited the UK economy. The only way anything cam be done about that will be for the UK to leave the EU (which will be case of cutting its own nose to spite its face).
3) Legal emigration from outside the EU. There are some folk you can do bugger all about and that is those foreigners (like myself) who have ancestral British passports. For the rest, there are already pretty tight controls (and they are about to get tighter with the new points system). So, there is hardly mass immigration from that direction (and there hasn't been for decades).
So, why all the ignorant whinging by everyone?"
So some sort of enforcement of the law might be in order? Just a thought.
"In times of unemployment, immigrants are said to take our jobs by undercutting wages; in times of full employment, they are said to take advantage of our generous social security system and thus drive up our taxes.
They either work too hard, or not hard enough. They can therefore never arrive at the right moment in the economic cycle; and for this reason, the Hong Kong Chinese were denied British citizenship at the time of the return of the colony to China. Britain viewed the skills, work habits, and capital of the Hong Kong Chinese as a menace rather than an opportunity of unparalleled proportions, the like of which will not soon present itself to any other nation.
Our education policy and immigration policy will be the death of this country."
"lumanari

So, the UK should have let the Hong Kong Chinese in?
Excuse me if I detect some inconsistency in your arguments."
"fusuym,
Isn't there a minimum wage? The immigrants can't undercut this can they?
No, but they can take better-paid jobs and work for the minimum wage.
I understand he may not have a family to keep here, but then shouldn't the incentive be to let him bring them here?
Our incentive is not to be race-replaced. It is profoundly racist to replace a people in their own homeland. Clear?"
"qwerty

So in other words the action of criminals who take adavntage of immigrants or of unscrupulous employers who engage in unlawful payment is the immigrants fault?
How about some law enforcement? If you see these guys REPORT THEM!

Why can't the British guy work for less? If he can't keep himself alive or his family why is your gripe not with bad employers who are unwilling to pay a decent wage?
You should be campaigning for better employment laws!"
"theloonyfromcatford:
""My boss would sack me before paying me - or anyone - 10 quid an hour.""
Then he's a fool.
It isn't what you pay someone that counts, it's whether you can still generate a margin that is acceptable after all of your costs have been taken into account.
By paying more he may well be able to increase or maintain his margin, and even if the margin declines slightly he may still be able to generate more actual cash. Dependant upon whether he can realise productivity improvements as a result of paying better wages - and there are multiple ways in which better wages can contribute, not just by the worker(s) in question working harder, faster or longer. For instance by allowing better employee retention, reducing recruitment cost and reducing opportunity losses.
Just saying ""i'm not paying someone £10 an hour"" as though to do so would be an affront to your principles isn't very clever."
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"writingisbest
I think you will find that some less scrupulous employers pay less than minimum wage - especially if they know the immigrant is a tad illegal.
There needs to be more done to stop these practices by employers. It will cut the attraction to those who enter illegally. Those who do pay legal wage wage rates to legal migrants from the EU are free to do so just as UK citizens are free to work in Europe - no big deal."
"Sorry for two posts at the same time! but I had to respond to this:
writingisbest

What on Earth are you talking about! This country is 95% white and has been for ages. This is the propaganda of the vilest of racists!
If you feel you are being ""race replaced"" compete with these aliens and interlopers, defend your birthrights by being the best you can be! Call the expats back! And as a last resort breed faster!
You cannot lock yourself away from the world to wither like some precious orchid! Show some backbone for your race.
They have no advantage over you, in fact as an immigrant (of a different race, coming to replace yours) I know how hard it is to move thousands of miles to find a better opprtunity."
"MungoTeazer
""So what would you have done about it?""
Well ideally massively reforming the EU. Failing that, leaving it. The CAP is reason enough to despise it. The trouble with the EU is that its a horribly botched compromise between groups who want quite different things. We are stuck in this logically inconsistent no-man's land and certain groups have suffered greatly as a result.
And if my last paragraph was snipey it was in response to your snipey comments about Brit workers. I did consider omitting it but your comments were too annoying to ignore. It is simply a fact that those who have benefited from historical protectionism of a most extreme kind should be wary of self-rightousness when commenting on this topic. One can make exactly the same points about such ""feather bedding"" being a bad thing without seeming to take an undeserved moral high ground."
My brother completed a self-funded City and Guilds Course in Carpentry and Joinery. Despite strenous efforts, he has been unable to find work simply because there are no jobs for Carpenter's Mates or Trainee Carpenters around as in previous years. This is because there is no incentive to train people now, however cheaply he offers himself. and he is unwilling to tout himself as 'qualified'. This is because the construction industry is jam packed with qualified (or allegedly qualified) Eastern Europeans. The prospects for young school leavers now, especially those wishing to work in the trades, are bleak. So this article makes me very angry.
"MungoTeazer
I am going to try really hard not to get into another argument with you, seeing that our last one was ended with both our posts being removed. My point is that the stupid immigration policy we have (for I have never said once, that immigration is a bad thing or that it should be stopped, can you find where I said either of these things?) is so stupid that we let in people we don't need, and yet people who could help this country are denied entry."
"formerlefty

Continued membership of the EU is irrelevant to this thread. Suffice to say that, while I have some reservations, I support continued UK membership.

Of course my comments were annoying. There were intended to make a point and provoke a reaction.
And I am not taking any moral high ground. I am expressing an opinion in a robust debate.
Are you suggesting that my background disqualifies me from expressing certain views on certain issues?"
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"lumanari
I have found myself in general agreement with your last couple of posts.
It is very easy to get into polemical shouting matches on CiF, and I apologise if I called you wrong."
"MungoTeazer
""Are you suggesting that my background disqualifies me from expressing certain views on certain issues?""
In the very post you quoted I stated that your background means you should be more careful how you express those views. You are perfectly entitled to argue as to why immigration is a good thing, but you look a bit silly making blanket disparagement of others for wanting something you yourself have benefited from. It appeared to me in your earlier post that you were taking a rather 'macho' ""anyone who can't compete in the pure free-market is a loser"" line, which sits badly with the fact that your greater ability to so compete is itself a result of past protectionism.
I agree with you about 'writingisbest', mind, to the extent that I now regret picking a fight with you."
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"formerlefty

My point was (and remains) that xenophobic protectionism will be detrimental to the UK economy. I do not advocate mass or uncontrolled immigration (anything but), but I do take issue with this ""migrants are stealing"" our jobs line promoted by the right (and I am hardly left wing myself).
Yes, UK citizens should, if qualified and able, be given preference over a similarly qualified and able foreigner for a particular job. But if no UK citizen is willing or able to take or do a particular job, that job should not simply have to be handed to an inappropriately qualified or experienced UK citizen simply because of his or her citizenship, to keep him or her in a job.
Racial job reservation and Bantu Education in SA were both a gross violation of human rights and economically lunatic. I only entered the job market in SA in 1991, by which time work discrimination was on its way out.
Steps have been taken to redress matters in SA by means of affirmative action and Black Economic Empowerment, but my view is that has now become an instrument of pork barrel politics and is economically counter-productive (as well as being discriminatory in their own right). But that is another debate."
"_AT_writingisbest ...
... but thinking, obviously not. You wrote:

I assume you know some history, at least at primary school we did learn about the history of the British Isles. Can you tell me then, what a ""Briton"" is?
For the first several thousand years of our nation we were regularly invaded. But let's keep it simple. Is someone who is Italian through their forebears (Roman Empire, hope I'm not going to fast for you) British simply due to longevity - i.e. their family remained in Briton for the next two thousand years? If so, then a 2,000 year Briton is OK!
Some time later we welcomed Saxons and Angels from Germany (or what is now Germany). Are their current generation Britons?
What about the Danes, Norwegians, and other Scandinavians who were attacking and then settling in Briton in the 8 - 10th century? Do their current relatives count as Britons?
Or the French (for goodness sake, even the French) or at least the Normans who DID conquer this country in 1066. Remember that date from school? Are they now British also?
What about the celtic races, the picts, Irish, Scots, where do you draw the line?
Briton is, and has ALWAYS been a polyglot nation. Only we notice it now because previously the invaders / settlers were white. Now it's a bit more obvious, and that seems to upset some people.
You claim that Mungo (keep trying, it's heard to explain simple things to those who do not want to hear) is a ""nazi"" WTF??
Which planet are you on? If you don't agree, then make a cogent argument. The last resort of the rogue without an argument is to insult. Challenge the arguments, not the speaker."
"I'd say that using words like 'deracination' to describe black and asian immigration into the UK makes you a self-declared racist.

Who is this 'us' and who appointed you its spokesman? No one asked my permission when my next door neighbours moved in. Should they have?"
"Writingisbest
Curious to know how you define someone as a native Briton.
Would it be by the dubious blood quantum, such as they do for Native American tribes in the US? Or by some other spurious definition?"
"_AT_writingisbest
you ARE Nick Griffen, I claim my 5 pounds"
Isn't England full of illegal boat people who arrived here circa 600AD with another absolute shower arriving in 1066?
"Mungo's question about continental Europe is a fair one. I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't want to work in Europe because I'd miss my friends and family, and Britain's culture and landscape. Is that good enough for you?
As for the other obvious point (this one was Socialist Mike's, I think), you don't hear the likes of me complaining about Brits emigrating to other countries because - I think - on the whole we believe that other countries have the right to determine who comes in and out just as we should. If they choose to let Brits in, that's a matter for them.
Looking forward to your recommendation then. I'd have been lost without it.
As for Mungo, I see that in my absence you're still shouting rather than listening. And, Socialist Mike, your implication that anyone opposed to immigration must be a BNP member is contemptible. How much easier it is to smear your opponents rather than engage with them."
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"""Yes, UK citizens should, if qualified and able, be given preference over a similarly qualified and able foreigner for a particular job. But if no UK citizen is willing or able to take or do a particular job, that job should not simply have to be handed to an inappropriately qualified or experienced UK citizen simply because of his or her citizenship, to keep him or her in a job.""
Of course the first sentence is not, in fact, the way it works in relation to the EU. EU citizens have to be considered on entirely equal terms with UK ones. And I've already mentioned the problem with justifying that on the grounds of 'reciprocity'.
Also even in relation to non EU countries your second sentence has the problem that other countries don't do the same in return, its not the way the nation state concept works. There is no global free market in labour. Displaced Brits can't just clear off to Canada, the US or Australia, no questions asked. Though the meaning of your sentence, and how much I agree with it, depends hugely on what is meant by 'appropriately qualified or experienced'.
I also draw a strong distinction between former British Empire countries and those that the UK has no historic debt to.
Finally the point about your personal benefit from 'feather bedding' was less about your own career as about what advantages white South African immigrants have inherited from their privileged forebears. You still seem to be suggesting that there should be a global free market in labour, in which the Devil takes the hindmost, yet it seems to me to be inconsistent that you consider the privilege of British citizenship (in terms of giving better access to UK labour market) to be an illegitimate inheritance, but the privilege of cultural capital and education that so many White South Africans have (which has much the same effect) to be a legitimate one.
Why is it OK to inherit one kind of advantage in the labour market but not the other?
Still, it does seem that the worst of the pain caused by New European immigration is pretty much over - its yesterday's argument and about to be replaced with a whole new kind of pain."
"writingisbest
Hope you are a native Briton and not one of these Anglo Saxon/Norman jobs."
Oh, and 'writingisbest', your arguments are irrational and racist and frankly make MungoTeazer's position look quiet attractive by contrast. 'Genetic interests', what the heck are you babbling on about?
But the reason why Britons can freely move about Europe is because Europeans can freely move about the UK. As you have indicated, you would not want to work or live in Europe. Fair enough, that is your decision. But in wanting to restrict the rights of Europeans to live and work in the UK you will necessary limit the rights of Britons to live and work in Europe. That is not your decision and is not your right. And any political party that cared about winning an election would never adopt it as a policy.
"I don't believe I have denied this. Once again you leave me at a loss. I am able to criticise employers for exploitaton and Migration Watch for lying, aren't I?
I'm going to have to leave this one, socialistMike. It's starting to get like that time Father Ted tried to teach Father Dougal the difference between a cow being small, and a cow being far away....."
"formerlefty


Well then, the real debate is about the EU. Not migration.

Does the UK have a historic debt to former white dominions NZ, Australia and Canada or only to the actual colonies?

I am not claiming my ""privilege of cultural capital and education"" as a white South African was fair (bearing in mind that my black, coloured and Indian compatriots were denied the same privilege), but it is what it is, and I am not going to wear a hair shirt about it.
I am not suggesting a global labour free-for-all with open borders everywhere, but I also strongly disagree that the UK become some sort of protectionist fortress (that would be economically lunatic and counter-productive)."
It's not really a question of 'justifying it' as recognising it as a fact of life. If we as a nation wish to remain in the EU then that is the price of membership. While I am sure that there is a minority of people who would say 'yes, let's get out, the sooner the better', there is no majority for leaving the EU. Bear in mind too that there are millions of Britons who directly benefit from EU open borders. If you think you can persuade them to abandon those benefits then be my guest. But I don't think you'll get very far.
"Doesn't work mungo. I've seen it time and time again. In principle this has always applied to non-EU migration to Britain - for example from India for IT jobs.
All the company does is advertise the job at a ridiculously low rate in an obscure publication, then when there are no takers or those that reply are simply rejected, they boo-hoo to the government who then hand them a pile of working visas with barely a question asked. It also relies on government ignorance about technologies and foreign qualifications. Famously once it didn't know the difference between Java and Javascript, hence a load of ""highly skilled"" people arrived with barely the ability to code a bit of HTML with a few tricks added-on.
I saw this with my own eyes in what claims to be Britain's biggest IT company. They took on 16 Indian developers when they could, at the drop of a hat find hundreds with generic C-language skills. I even recommended them half a dozen, but they didn't want to know and the reason was obvious - they would have had to pay £5-8k more.
Same thing happens when technology has been updated. Why retrain at great expense people with 20 years service who say earn £35k, when you are presented with a golden opportunity to start again with a mortgage and family-free 25 year old foreigner who'll happily take £16k?"
"""Does the UK have a historic debt to former white dominions NZ, Australia and Canada or only to the actual colonies?""
In my view no. Those nations are wealthy and the true inheritors of the wealth that was gained from them are the white majorities now living there, not the UK. Any debts are internal to those nations. Genuinely reciprocal immigration agreements woudln't be a problem with those nations though, they are, after all, where most Brits who immigrate actually want to go. Can't say I've entirely thought through this idea, mind.
""I am not suggesting a global labour free-for-all with open borders everywhere, but I also strongly disagree that the UK become some sort of protectionist fortress (that would be economically lunatic and counter-productive).""
Well then we are pretty close to agreement so I'll take the chance to stop wasting time arguing when I should be doing something else."
"formerlefty
To deal with this point

Other than the reciprocal Commonwealth visas, citizens of non EU countries can no more waltz into the UK than UK citizens can waltz into theirs (it all works on a reciprocal basis), so I fail to see the unfairness.
'appropriately qualified or experienced'? If no UK citizen has the experience and qualifications for a job in the UK, then than a foreigner with those experience and qualifications should be allowed to the job. Companies should not be forced to hire incompetent people simply because they are British citizens.

Gee, thanks ...."
"writingisbest

I didn't say that, I said no more rights. I have the same rights as you as a British citizen. You were born here so you got yours easily. I came to this country when I was asked and then worked here for ten years before I had exactly the same rights as you. I am as British as you. This is the opposite of racism. To call me racist is ridiculous. You are the only person discriminating in terms of race.

I am Indian, yes. If a Chinese man moves to Bombay and passes all the necessary laws to gain citizenship he is has just as many rights as any ""native"" Indian. He may not be the same in terms of cultural background but thats ok.
India is country of many such different cultures and people, and has been an area of intense immigration for millenia. So is the UK. Get used to it.

Surely they are half ""native"" and should be embraced by the native population more than pure foreigners.... or maybe they are not ""pureblood"" enough.
Do you have any foreign ancestry? Angle? Saxon? Roman? I"
"MungoTeazer
""Other than the reciprocal Commonwealth visas, citizens of non EU countries can no more waltz into the UK than UK citizens can waltz into theirs (it all works on a reciprocal basis), so I fail to see the unfairness.""
D'oh, no I wasn't talking about the actual law now, I was responding to the implication of what you seemed to be saying the law should be."
"MungoTeazer
""Gee, thanks ....""
Was that unfair? Perhaps we don't disagree as much as I thought, if so I apologise,. I just think (hope) there is a middle-ground between those who want a kind of social-Darwinism where people are merely rootless units of infinitely mobile labour, with no necessary social and sentimental connections to a locality, and, on the other hand, scary nuts who are obsessed with 'genetics' and skin colour.
Right that's it, no more time wasting."
"In the fifties the conventional opininion was that cheap labour was bad, bad for the workers and the economy as a whole,because it prevented investment in techniques for increasing genuine productivity and better machines.
I think this view is self evidently correct.
The principal issue though is that the U.K is very very crowded as a result the real quality of life has fallen during the last decades.
England's green and pleasant land is no more."
"Have you ever stopped to think about the process by which current industry and business imports its labour. The transport conditions are sometimes not very pleasant are they ? Lot come over in container trucks , bit like ""cattle trucks"" really. If they want immigrants to do their work for a few shillings a week, why don't they recruit them fairly ? Lay on proper transport. When they get here they often li9ve in appalling conditions, work illegally long hours for nothing. They are massively exploited. You don't seem to be complaining about this .
As the economy contracts many economic migrants have started going home . I'm sure this process does contain some elements of hardship. ( They may be going back to no-work ) This is a natural form of economic repatriation, No one is being rounded up. No one is being forced to go home , it is just happening. This is one form of voluntary repatriation. Why aren't you out protesting about it?
Thousands of migrants being economically repatriated every week.
Ok, let's take this a bit further. If we decide to help migrants by making it difficult for employers to drag them half way across the planet in (metaphorical) cattle trucks. Why is this morally wrong?
If we decide to rationalize the process of repatriation, give them generous resettlement grants, enough to help them out whilst finding work back at home, or starting a small business,( like their own market stall), what is the problem in this? It is far more pragmatic than leaving a migrants future, and their family, to forces of the market place. This way they don't stave and get to go home on a free airplane.
Can you not see the system you are supporting and how unfair it actually is for all concerned?"
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Whether or not immigrants take jobs is separate from whether they change our lives in other ways we don't want. If we stopped assuming that money = happiness and kept assuming that one of our government's most important jobs is to defend our culture we would cut immigration radically, especially from Islamic countries. Few things have lowered British morale as much as feeling we're losing swathes of our country to people who don't even like us.
"_AT_The Loony
'Listen up, my unemployed chums - you don't need GCSes to pick fruit - just run down down to your nearest temp agency and grab that dream fruit picking job before it goes. The farmer will take you on, even if you're British.'
Mmmm nice, one can see why6 the left in this country is failing and flailing with comments like that, contrasting 'hard working migrants' with the indigenous, 'unemployed' 'chavs' etc, certainly plays into the far rights hands as well."
"Hummpphh! we Scots were here first
;~)"
"There are very difficult ethical and economic issues though concerning immigration.
My Dad lost his driving licence when he was 85 so he could not readily get to the supermarket.
It so happened that an immigrant SIkh opened a grocery store in a nearby cottage, living on top of the store. He worked long hours for presumably small profits , but as he said he was living much better than in India.
What he did do was to call at my Dad's house to take orders and deliver, which enabled my Dad to stay in his house for another 8 years.
So that individual immigrant was clearly a net asset to the local community."
"I asked a close friend, a Labour supporter, why the government was keen on unfettered immigration.
Friend - Because Labour knows all the immigrants will vote Labour out of gratitude. This will tip the balance permanently in Labour's favour.
I don't know, of course, why Sir Andrew Green's think tank recommendations are 'wrong'. Must be because they're all morons or racists. Isn't that the usual reason behind a point of view that the Guardians' journalists disapprove of?"
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"formerlefty

You and I might not be standing on the same patch of turf, but we are definitely on the same football ground, if that analogy means anything."
"Writingisbest : Can you tell me what you understand by the term Homeland. I have thought a lot , an awful lot ,about this myself. I think there are many different ways to belong to a community and a nation that gives us a full sense of identity, that values us as individuals , and respects what we do for a living, particularly if we do manual work. I work with my hands- I know what it's like, I know what it feels like.
Let me tell you something, if I may. When you begin the process of trying to bring nationalism about things start happening to you and around you. You get more self confidence. You become more assertive. Paradoxically you become more tolerant and respectful of people from other ethnic backgrounds. Massive coincidences happen and chance meetings.
Last year, before they had any inkling of what was on it's way, some Labour party activists approached me. I had managed to communicate to them I wasn't a hate filled neo-nazi crackpot. They eventually asked me how long did they have to put in place some basic resources to hold things together , and what would happen if they didn't. I told them the truth : They had two years, if not a ""radical fire"" would sweep through these communities.
Some resources are being put in place. ""What is coming"" is forcing a convergence of nationalist, socialist and green policies. It one way. To me no one is building a Homeland, it is a naturally emergent structure from current socio-economic conditions.
What people now have to ask is do they want to hide or look away ,and an allow an ""out of these ashes"" , radical fire, or do they want to help try to build a sane convergent structure which is the other route to take?
Many people here now have an ""intuition"" they will have to cross some line in the near future. They are curious, if nothing else, and afraid. Part of my role is to help them reach that decision. How would you help them do that?"
Migrationwatch is independent, as Legrain concedes. The ONS isn't. This renders Legrain's piece worthless.
"Dear all,
The BNP is independent and yet I would suggest their opinion on immigration is not value free.
What I find amazing is that media outlets give the likes of migration watch, the tax payers alliance, victims voice etc any air time at all.
But back to the subject I do find Migration Watch to be deeply offensive and damaging in that it creates heat that fuels racial and social discord without shedding any light on a range of complex issues.
If the tabloid editor;s suffer from nocturnal emissions I suggest that Sir Andrew Green may feature heavily in the same.
Ohh and when it comes to employing UK nationals every time i've been involved in recruiting the UK candidates have been substantially removed from the recruitment process due to poor levels of literacy, training, flexibility etc etc.
I'm a pro european tory and I think that Migration Watch et al should be given the credence of the unofficial monster raving loony party (sark non aligned chapter)"
"Well - I had to share an interim job with a transitional migrant. I could of done the job myself over a longer period of time.
So for me this contitutes taking half my job away.
I've seen it with my own eyes, yet Philippe wants to say that I am blind?
The truth is somewhere in between Migration Watch and Phillippe, who wants you to believe that not one vacancy was filled by a non-British citizen, which could have been fullfilled by British citizen.
As for migrationwatch, it is a bit xenophobic, because it start going on about ""non-white"" children, however to tarnish all people who question the governments immigration policy/implentation of it, is wrong.
What is unquestionable is that mass immigration to the south east and london, has increased house prices to the point that everyones quality of life is reduced.
Also just because slightly less people were unemployed after mass immigration, does not mean immigration creates jobs. Its like saying that HIV is cured by TVs because countries with more TVs have less HIV. Employment was/is very high in London compared to the rest of the country? I think we know why?"
"That was a nice story. I've just moved from one area in London to another.
Both were multi-cultural, but I love the current one and hate the other.
The reason is currently there are far more long term immigrants, who are integrated into the community, and part of it. Its friendly, I can prop up at bar, and make friends from the round the world immediately. My last place was in a transitional sea of short term migrants, only here to make money and go, very poor english. There's nothing wrong with that, in some numbers, but currently too many places in London, are transient with no community."
Have you ever considered that that phrase is racist?
"migrationwatch is a hate-filled organisation. consequently their stats, announcements etc, are skewed/slanted in this direction.
With Obama about to become president of the USA, yet we have this pathetic 'think'-tank' spewing their racist garbage.
One thing's for sure, we seem to be regressing, rather badly at that...and not just economically.
Why not build an iron fence around this island, and then we ll see how well we get on.
H1"
"Repeat after me.
The left is not censorious.
There is no anti-white racism on the left.
Race-replacement is good for the English.
Phillipe Legraine is right."
"Access of employers to a larger pool of unskilled labour is likely to drive down wages for UK unskilled workers - the most vulnerable section of the workforce.
While this does not affect analysts such as the author of this piece, who is clearly on far too much money as an unemployed economics graduate could have cobbled it together, it does affect the vast majority of unskiled
labour in this country.
Migrants who come to the UK for under six months will not pay UK tax. Of which there are plenty driving cabs and working warehouses in my town. This helps the economy how ?"
"skim,
Homeland is not a complicated concept. Take what you know in your own heart to be true. It is nothing to do with socio-economics. England belongs to one people only, and all the rest are merely living here. Don't give an inch on that. Feoreigners are already telling us ""I have as much right to this country as you have"". They have no right, only the ephemera of citizenship. The political class let them in and do not even now recognise that we exist, so racist are they. It's our purpose to reverse that and to give our people life.
Start frequenting comment-blogs where you will encounter free-thinkers exploring what it will take to save our people worldwide from the present genocide. There are none, or very few, hosted in Britain with an intellectual level you would find appropriate (ie, higher than you find here). You have to look to the States. Good luck.
legalcynic,
You are a poor conservative if you cannot conserve your own people. But ... are they your own people? What's your ethnicity?"
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"writingisbest
are you taking the piss with this white supremacy stuff ?"
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"Nimn2003 said:

Not really, as a small Island in Northern Europe, Britain has had roughly the same population since the IceAge – with no real changes to their genetic make-up, and the population are a genetically distinct group as showed by gene mapping studies.
By the way you are aware that the Danes and the Normans are the same group of people right?
Nimn2003 also said:

I believe part of the point was that mungo – as a white South African – should LEARN TO RESPECT THE WISHES AND RIGHTS OF NATIVE POPULATIONS, of which the British are one and blacks native to the region of South Africa are another. He claims to have supported the latter to some extent but is dismissive and rude about the former, in such a way in fact as to cast doubt on his assertions to have supported native blacks in South Africa previously.
Generally speaking it is also extremely distasteful for an immigrant to lecture the British people on how immigrants have as much right to Britain as native Brits, and the British peoples are bigots/racists/little Englanders if they object to ALL OF SAID IMMIGRANT'S COUNTRYMEN - or their religious or cultural brethen from neighbouring countries - coming to Britain too. Many immigrants and even British ethnic minorities sport massive prejudices in favour of their own people while heavily denouncing any British people or European peoples in general for doing the same, while simultaneously demanding unlimited access to European people's countries.
fusuym (who is an Indian immigrant to Britain) said:

Actually your comment - which displays your ignorance of the UK - is a clear demonstration of the lack of Britishness which you claim as your own.
Also see a paragraph or so above about the inappropriateness and vulgarity of an immigrant reprimanding the people of his chosen country about how they should make their home more comfortable for him and his fellow countrymen, while showing totally disregard for them and their heritage.
fusuym also said:

A Harry Potter worthy red herring.
You can be a genetically distinct population (like the British) without being reasonably accused of being pureblood fanatics. Youre just trying to imply that the British people do not exist, can be easily switched for all sorts of other peoples like you and your brothers."
The Celts ethnically cleansed the Beaker people you know, my anticedants. The Germanic bastards. Also, no-one mentions the Guernsy/Jersey/Sark axis in polite society these days when they've clearly been at it for decades !
bvanzy, you are a doll.
"Once again, Im afraid that Philippe has charged off tilting at windmills and failed to properly address the arguments of his opponents.
Migrationwatchs principal claim is that all of the jobs created in the UK since 2004 have gone to foreigners, that is people not born in the UK. This is in fact borne out by the exact same Labour Force Survey that Philippe cites in his own article above.
The LFS indicates that between Q1/04 and Q3/08 a total of 1,166,000 jobs were created, of which 26,000 were filled by UK-born workers and 1,134,000 by non-UK-born. Not quite All as claimed by MWUK, but close enough for government work, I should have thought."
People are fascinated by crime stories but generally have no way of verifying the veracity of what they read. Therefore frugal newspapers in the US have outsourced the creation of crime stories, resulting in a spate of stories about tiffin-wallas being gunned down in front of WalMart.
Obviously the chemistry between them was not good.
"PeterFrederickson
Indeed, playing hard and fast with the numbers there...
And as I said before...
Access of employers to a larger pool of unskilled labour is likely to drive down wages for unskilled workers - the most vulnerable section of the workforce.
Migrants who come to the UK for under six months will not pay UK tax. Of whom there are plenty driving cabs and working warehouses etc in my town. Live four to a room, work hundreds of hours, put up with intollerable living conditions for a brief time - then after a short stay, take the money, go home, start buying a place with the wages of compartative advantage. A cycle of freinds and relatives use the accomodation. Everyone wins except... those who are big enough mugs to be born and live here trying to get the taxi jobs, the warehouse jobs, and compete here permanently... (I mean I personally know and am friends with people in exactly this position, I doubt if the author ever has or will)... and all this helps our economy how exactly ?"
"Further to the above, Philippe seems awfully keen that we exclude what he terms < … the recent fall in employment due to the financial crisis… > and instead compare another perios, presumably one more likely to support Philippes case.
Some blatant goalpost-shifting automatically set the antennae twitching, and and peek at Philippes preferred source, the LFS statistics, soon reveals why he is keen that we avert our gaze from more recent events.
In fact, the LFS indicates that, comapred to the same period in 2007, overall employment in Q3/08 is slightly up (29,000), however the total of UK-born in employment is down 92,000 while the non-Uk-born total is up 118,000.
So, despite Philippes best efforts at bamboozling his readers with smoke and mirrors it appears that the trend identified by MWUK is in fact continuing, and not withering away as Philippe would have us believe. In our fixation with Polish plumbers, who Philippe seems to think will all be home by Christmas, we shouldnt lose sight of the fact that the UK is still dishing out work permits to non-EU nationals in considerable numbers (124,000 in 2007)."
"RogerINtheUSA
Thanks for that. Forgot about the chemistry. Damn."
Thanks, how did you know?
"Philippe Legrain , why would anyone believe what you say on these matters? You come from a professional class with vested interests in encouraging as many immigrants to come here as possible -- all those think tanks, all the conferences, all the meeting, the news paper columns and book chapters you prepare -- all make you and your ( not so little ) industry a pretty packet. There is no point in masquerading in actually caring about the hundreds of thousands of immigrants that come to UK -- that's a sham. Your lot don't care beyond what you stand to gain.
Look, the vast majority of Britons are not racist, and the vast majority of Britons are very accepting people -- I think that most Britons actually do favour controlled immigration, the right to intermarry as we see fit, and to enjoy other cultural possibilities -- Look around you at major details of life, such as all those Britons we know who have willingly intermarried with non Britons over the decades-- Now look at minor details such as all those non British influences we have all enjoyed over the decades, from music etc onwards...
But -- and it's a MAJOR point -- I think what you'll find is that we Britons DO NOT want to feel that the nature, the character and mood of OUR living spaces has been totally transformed, compromised beyond recognition, beyond reasonable change, with no say and input and choice from US on how it is changed -- and Britons DO NOT want to feel in competition for housing, medical care, schooling etc, and we DO NOT want to feel threatened by imported gang culture when we walk our streets .
All cliches to the likes of Legrain and the chattering classes, I know, ( after all they don't live near Elephant and Castle, Oldham, Burnley, Cowley etc ) and it's also totally true that our own ""home grown"" lads of white ethnicity cause serious problems too -- we have all felt threat from our own white lads -- but generally, these issues I mention are very real issues under ""noo Labour."""
"Gnosticmind . The next question to ask is this: If things are this bad now, what is going to happen if we don't reverse some of the impact of what has happened, as we head into a Time Of Austerity? What is the next decade going to be like if we carry on like this? Better?
I think there will be a Time Of Hunger, high streets boarded up, queues for diminishing , increasingly expensive food . Contempt for the poor and outright predation by economic parasites on the new poor.
Hardship will strip layers of delusion, false sentiment. We will see and understand clearly our position. No credit cards. No material distraction. (Perhaps never quite enough to eat ). No means of buying a way out of this situation.
None of this had to happen. But before what can happen, will- first a painful, preliminary necessity."
"bvanzy, writingisbest
Come on guys, do you seriously believe all that?
I am not lecturing you, (although it might be hard to hear realities from an uppity immigrant).
Have I showed any disregard for the British as distinct people? NO. You exist and have done so here for some thousands of years, I respect that, good for you. No matter where you go, youwill be British by blood and culture as much as I am Indian.
What, I object to is the notion that we are replacing you. You are being switched for people who don't look like you, according to you.
What I want to know is how? Actual killing? White people leaving because they don't like what's happening to their country? (surely these people are even more disloyal to the UK than any immigrant by your rules)
I just don't understand, are we deracinting you by producing mixed offspring?
I don't know why I (and many other Asians) have to constantly say how grateful we are for the UK. It's obvious, it has given us everything. I haven't got much truck with people criticising the British way too much as it allows us to practice our way of life here relatively freely.
But those of us who are now citizens (an ephemeral concept to you but enshrined in law for us) and had to work and earn for ten years to get the same rights as a ""native"" will not allow ourselves to be marginalised becuase we are of a different genetic category. I don't claim to be British in blood like you and I will never be considered truly British. But I don't want my employment rights affected by this as your policies would clearly do"
"I had a temp gig in the civil service a few years ago. Part of my job was to cut and paste standard responses to letters addressed to the Housing Minister (there isn't anyone out there who thinks they actually read your letters, is there?)
It was absolutely heartbreaking work. People forced to live in the private rented sector, pay extortionate rents (compared to council tenants) and live with the insecurity of short-term leases (6-12 mos max) because they have a snowball in Hell's chance of securing a council tenancy.
One of the questions that kept recurring was the confusion felt by individuals when non-English speakers seemed to be getting council flats in such large numbers. How did they come to be the 'responsibility' of certain councils? It used to be the case that one had to demonstrate a local connection before one could be put on a council waiting list, yet many of these families appeared to have no connection with Europe, much less the UK, England, the South-East, a particular borough of London etc.
The frustration with the lack of transparency surrounding this government policy was obvious. How were non-English speakers (whether naturalised Brits or not by this stage) able to access to council housing system when native-born Brits (of ALL colours) were unable to?
On visits to see my old mum on the estate where I grew up, I took note of at least ten properties which used to be occupied by either Brits or first-generation West Indian immigrants (all of whom were given tenancies long before we had a housing crisis in the UK) and all of which who were occupied by non-English speakers.
I noted the addresses and, out of curiosity, e-mailed a FOI request to my mum's local authority, asking whether these properties still belonged to the council, or had they been purchased under Right-to-Buy legislation? The answer was this: all ten properties in question were still in council hands.
So my question is: by what mechanism has this process been allowed to occur? Ten properties occupied by Turkish, Ugandan, Bangladeshi and Vietnamese nationals = ten British families who have been denied the chance of secure, affordable housing. Multiply this across the country and perhaps even well-meaning liberals can understand the anger of ordinary people who have been frozen out of the system by a government that seems to have more regard for poor immigrants than their own economically disadvantaged (read: poor) citizens.
One of my favourite cut and paste lines was something like this: 'You may wish to be aware that, nationwide, only around 1% of council tenancies are allocated to foreign nationals'. Even if this is true, I'd love to know how many properties this 1% actually represents. 1000? 10,000? This 1% is clearly a national average, which is effectively meaningless. Even when adjusted for relative numbers of council properties in their individual housing portfolios, there are quite clearly more foreign nationals with council tenancies in Tower Hamlets than say, Kendal, Poole and Richmond.
I have since sent a second FOI request to my local council requesting specific numbers - exactly how many non-EU nationals have council flats on my old estate? My guess is around 10%, but I am awaiting their official response. When I have this figure, I will be writing to my MP to ask why this being allowed to happen.
In their latest attempt at self-justification, Trevor Phillips and the latest incarnation of his propaganda machine (the CEHR) are supposedly going to be conducting an investigation into 'urban myths' like the one I have illustrated above. Does anyone seriously think they will produce an honest, unbiased report? The fact is that in a country where people like Phillips and his mob are given virtually unlimited funds to parrot the pro-immigration/multi-culti party line and are granted unlimited access to a soapbox on the BBC/in the Guardian, Andrew Green and Migrationwatch are heroes - and by the way, I'm a second generation Brit and would not even be considered 'white' by many people.
When are the economically disadvantaged people of this country going to wake up? Your government despises you. How much more are you going to take? Get the facts and e-mail your MP's NOW! Ask questions. Demand answers. And don't allow yourself to be silenced by the middle-classes who think they know best."
"""White people leaving because they don't like what's happening to their country?""
When there is absolutely nothing they can do about whats happening, don't like where it's heading and when they were never asked about what was happening many have left the UK and many more will follow. It has nothing to do with loyalty but comes from the impotent position they are in. I'm not saying all have left because of immigration but I am sure a number have. If it were not for the hundreds of thousands (mainly white British) leaving the UK for pastures new every year the population would be well over 70 million already."
"Bitterweed
Not convinced the Celts ethnically cleasned the Beaker people any more than MacDonalds ethnically cleasned the Greasy Spoon roadside cafe. Fair hunks of the country seem to have genetic tracers that stretch back to the neolithic and beyond.
There is a certain irony though when people rabbit on about Angle Land as if it was always here when the very name suggests an influx of foreigners speaking a foreign tongue. Perhaps in 600 years England will be called something else Little Asia perhaps? :~) (He He Ho Ho - it is to chuckle)"
"Legraine is parroting the classic neo-liberal orthodoxy.
The usual spin.
The quicker we get rid of this sick government the better."
"HandandShrimp
Happy Eater Land ?"
"quert99666:
I'm not saying all have left because of immigration but I am sure a number have.
Yes many British people have left because of immigration. Sort of. I speak from experience of living in the expat community in Spain. However a vast number of them were also very racist. I lost count of the number of stories I was told about England (god save the queen) going to the dogs because of foreigners raping dogs, mugging old ladies and cheating tax payers out of their money. Incidentally these anecdotes were often peppered with words such as paki, dirty kosovan/asylum seeker etc. Like many of the comments posted here they never included statistics to back up their arguments they just had anecdotes which they had heard or read about. If enough people believe that trees are attacking them should we just chop down all the trees?
In short I believe that there should be a discussion about immigration but its no use listening to an obviously xenophobic think tank such as Migration Watch or basing opinion on the stories of individuals.
I agree with the comment that Phillipe could have shortened this column to: ONS stats contradict Migration Watch but statistics are important when trying to find the truth of what is happening.
Join me. Stop the marauding trees! Before its too late..."
"Bitterweed
Yes - or Tubbyland :~)"
Xenophobes: A bunch of predictable bores, unable to think past their own stereotypes and holding on to a past half-mythical dream of Empire providing a great source of entertainement for everyone else.
"_AT_deathtocareerwomen:
Try to comprehend this, if you will. The uneducated, working class people who have been more or less forced to migrate to the Southern Spain may not have the education, statistics or facts to back up their assertions and thus satisfy the supposedly 'rational' academics who so pollute modern policy making, but what they do have is something far more compelling - the evidence of their own two eyes.
The fact is that these people were never consulted regarding the social engineering experiment being conducted by the political classes, who would of course never have to actually live with the real-world consequences of their decisions. Without their permission or consent, their neighbourhoods were transformed into virtually foreign lands within less than one generation. All of a sudden they were foreigners in their own country. Do you seriously wonder why they are angry and use rather coarse and un-PC language to describe the way they feel?
Take a case in point - Bow, London E3. Around 20 years ago it was virtually all WWC, West Ham supporting and a no-go area for Gooners such as myself. Now it is practically unrecognisable due to the unstated government policy of housing muslim immigrants from South Asia in the area. Having then secured ILR or full British citizenship, these individuals have then returned to their homelands and returned with wives/husbands in tow.
And it gets worse: despite their obvious inability to either afford or accommodate a family, the majority of these newly-weds have then gone on to have several children and in the process placed yet more strain on local council housing allocation. My mum's south Asian neighbours have three generations - five adults (grandparents and parents) and three kids - all crammed into a 3-bedroom maisonette. Naturally they will receive priority status for rehousing in due course, and the cycle will no doubt repeat itself.
Please try to understand who the real victims are here. The people who have been forced to relocate did not do it out of choice. They were effectively hounded out of their homes by government policy. Why is it so acceptable for every foreign national to live in the UK and retain their sense of identity, yet this rule seemingly does not apply to members of the WWC?"
"fusuym,
Race-replacement is a technical term employed by some policital scientists. Its simplest reference in the non-academic world, as it affects this discussion, is in the differing growth rates of migrant and native societies in Europe, which include, of course, differing fertility. When people speak of the white minority in America by 2050, here by 2070, in France by 2040, possibly, this is race replacement. There are many quite obstruse ways in which race replacement proceeds, which we need not enter into here. Just bear in mind that when a country changes from a white homeland into a majority non-white land, that is race replacement.
It is a process that has no end-point in Nature, and which, carried sufficienbtly far, will produce a rump white minority. Since no white people requested such a fate, it is accurate to call it coercive and, therefore, genocidal.
I hope that helps."
"As a 'native' Briton, that is to say someone who was born here and has lived here for most of his life, except for a few years working in Northern California, I must say that I didn't find Mungo at all rude or disrespectful. He was pretty off-hand towards the xenophobes and bigots but since I am neither, it didn't affect me in the least. As a native my only wish is that immigrants make themselves useful as I would hope that anyone would, to the best of his or her ability. I don't know what other 'rights' you have in mind.

Strangely enough I find it 'extremely distasteful' for you to lecture anyone else on my behalf. By his posts, the Indian immigrant you are attacking appears to be the very model of an 'integrated' immigrant, which is what I thought people like you wanted. Please don't imply that you represent me or the majority of Britons. You don't."
"Which 'political scientists' would they be? Name them.

This is all based on the assumption that birth rates are unchanging. As immigrant populations become more prosperous so they have fewer babies. Aren't there predictions that theJjapanese will become extinct by 3000AD? Such predictions can only be sustained by clinging to unrealistic assumptions.

Genocide?!? So who is stopping white people from having babies?"
"Harry: He was pretty off-hand towards the xenophobes and bigots but since I am neither, it didn't affect me in the least.
Your typical white liberal moral supremacism is showing. Say it like this: ""He was pretty offhand towards the loyalists and the clear-sighted, but since I am neither it didn't bother me in the least.""
You finish by saying, Please don't imply that you represent me or the majority of Britons. You don't.
That isn't the case. The genuine native - that is the English, Scots and Welsh, have not been permitted to speak. Only right-on Pee-Cee like yours is allowed. In fact, most ""loyalists and clear-seers"" have spent all their lives checking out other people's opinions. They have a damned good idea what the real state of opinion is, just as people in the old Soviet Union knew the score, but could not speak.
In the MultiCult, no one is shot in the cellars of the Lubyanka. But they are demonised and slandered, as you demonise and slander them in your comment. That is not a moral thing to do, Harry. That is an immoral thing to do. That is a vile and coercive thing to do.
The moral supremacism you display in that first remark I have excerpted is utterly unearned. You should back down from it now, and listen to opinions different to your own ... even learn from them."
"There is nothing remotely clear-sighted or loyal in being a xenophobe.

If people who share bvanzy's views aren't a tiny minority, how come the BNP has only 10,000 members?

What are you doing now? And how do you know that you are pure English, Scots, Welse, etc? Have you taken a DNA test? For all you know, there may be a touch of Slav or Turk in your racial heritage. As indeed there might be in mine. But who cares? I try to judge people by the quality of their characters not their racial heritage.

This thread rather contradicts that point!

So Britain's like the Soviet Union is it?

Oh grow up. This is a place for trenchant debate. Your side's thrown a few slings and arrows so you can hardly complain if you are repaid in the same coin.

My moral supremacy over those who have described black and asian immigration as 'deracination' is completely earned. What would you have me learn from such opinions, other than contempt?"
"Harry,
I don't know which political scientists humphjennings is talking about, but I do know that Frank Salter uses the term in On Genetic Interests.
You are right that immigrant birthrates fall after the first generation. But they are all at or above replacement level, and Muslim rates are very healthy indeed. In any case, birth rate is not the only factor. Family reunion, wife importation, race-mixing with natives, and the pressures on the native demographic of white flight and native birth-rate suppression (and these pressures are economic and social) all add to the picture.
As to the stability of the demographic forecasts, what is happening has been happening since 1948, and will continue because no one in, close or influential upon power wants it otherwise.
I do not see why the liberal-left has to be so wilfully obstructive about the whole business. If global warming can be accepted, on the basis of the available evidence, then so can European race-replacement."
"I lost my job 15 years ago during the last recession. At the time I worked in a call centre and the company I worked for moved it to Glasgow. Not the whole company, just the call centre, so the directors weren't all made redundant with a bare minimum payout. We found out that the workers in the North were paid almost two grand less than we were for doing the same job.
It was a lousy job and I hated doing, but I didn't blame the workers who took our jobs, but the greedy bastards who moved the call-centre to save themselves money. Last I heard, the call-centre jobs had been transferred over to India, but I'll bet those workers in Glasgow felt the same way we did. Blame the money grabbing gits who get paid bonuses for saving the share-holders money.
But it's a free-market isn't it, so why shouldn't it happen? Well once the unskilled labour is all minimum wage, how are the big companies going to save money then? Well we can see what's happening there with the construction workers and plumbers. Eventually we'll all be earning a lot less, just to keep our rich bosses happy.
I used to think that the Guardian didn't like that idea, or have times changed?"
"The notion that immigrants do jobs that (lazy) Brits 'wont' is one of the most ridiculous and dishonest lies to have ever entered public discourse.
It is not the case that pre-open-door-million-plus-influx we couldnt find anyone to clean toilets, flip burgers or paint walls, was it? Did you ever read about Burger King struggling to find staff? Bars? Fruit pickers? Manual workers? No, because these jobs were done, simply for higher wages (in real terms).
What people actually mean, though they wont ever say, is, ""They do the jobs the Brits wont do for that level of wage"". Why else do you think Blair and business, the City, and the whole neoliberal machine is so absolutely thrilled and insistent on mass immigration? Someone, please? Does Blair really value a 'vibrant culture'? Is that it? Is that why NuLab have taken a battering from the public on the issue for a decade, because they value the cultural offerings of Nigerians and Bangladeshis and just wont back down on such moral causes?
By now it should be obvious to all that NuLab is a business party, it is run exclusively for business. Mass immigration helps business, it keeps their costs down, because immigrants will always work for less than Brits.
Most jobs are done for money, not because people 'want to do them'. There is no one that wants to scrub a toilet or sweep a street, whether they are starving in a desert or sitting in a sink estate, no one. People will do crap jobs if the money is right, and for immigrants that required level is lower. How else do you think NuLab kept inflation so low during a massive boom? Broons genius?
The likes of Legrain probably think they are left wing for sticking up for immigrants, in reality they are supporting a cornerstone of neoliberal policy and protecting the profits of directors and shareholders to the detriment of the working class, public services and social cohesion. The working class left high and dry by Britain's unmistakable slide into corporatism have been successfully bought off with absurdly generous, unconditional benefits. So we pay Karen Matthews 25k a year to sit on her backside because she hasnt got a job, we instead import someone from the other side of the world to clean toilets because 'Brits wont do the job'. Its unlikely that the likes of Matthews will clean a toilet for £5 an hour, a wage held down by immigration, when they can sit in the comfort of their lounge for about £15 an hour. But it keeps them quiet, they have money to throw at X Factor, their kids can aspire to X Factor (70% of schoolgirls was it who said they would prefer to win X Factor than get good educational qualifications?), most stabbings and violence will be limited to the estates we herd them into, all the cheap labour is such a boon to business that we have become a hotspot for the worlds slimiest crooks and spivs and, to top it all, when Dear Leader departs, like his predecessor, those same spivs and crooks will pay him £12million for his efforts.
The country is run for business; thats why we have had open door immigration, there is no other reason - it is brilliantly cheap, exploitable labour for business."
"Let's cut through the crap, the bottom line is the British public were never asked if they wanted this, (what appears to be) limitless immigration policy that has been foisted upon us by the pontificating bollocks speak middle class chatterers who operate in a one dimensional world.
We were never asked if we wanted bogus ""Asylum Seekers"" who traversed the globe to get to this bonanza Welfare State or the Human Rights Act, the abuse of which has encouraged the worlds chancers to come to these shores.
Why not let the British people decide who they share this small island with before it becomes overcrowded and the Welfare State becomes a thing of the past, we are already witnessing the unravelling of the benefits system with old age pensions being the first victim"
This is what we need, lectures on racial tolerance from a South African....
Good idea! Desmond Tutu would do if Nelson isn't available.
"Harrythehorse
When you have to resort to name calling and smearing most balanced people view this as an admission that you have lost the argument. Calling people xenophobes because they do not want mass immigration is juvenile, snide and pretty pathetic.
Can you give me one good reason why lower and semi skilled British workers would want to have large numbers of foreign nationals in the UK directly competing with them for their jobs?"
I'm an Englishman. I'd just like to feel at home somewhere.
"HarryTheHorse
Thanks for the support!
This thread really seems to have pulled in the lunatic fringe.
It seems that the entire UK membership of the White Ethnic Solidarity Front (writingisbest , bvanzy, humphjennings, NickNightingale) have decided to drool on their keyboards while trotting out pseudoscience so obvious that even a moderately intelligent child would recognise it as such.
""genetic rights"", ""race replacement"", ""genocide"": anyone reading that would have thought they had accidentally logged onto the Stormfront website. These guys are singing off much the same hymnsheet as the Nazis were in the 1930s and 1940s.
There is nothing particularly special about the ""white race"" (we just need a bit more sunblock, that's all). A human being is a human being is a human being, regardless of ethnic origin, and if everyone in this country lands up mixed-race and coffee-coloured, so bloody what?
The UK is hugely privileged that someone like fusuym has chosen to make his home here. He is infinitely more of an asset to this country than the indigenous ""white solidarity"" dross that have chosen to peddle their racist trash here."
"JayReilly

If you are going to resort to petty and mindless insults, at least try to be original - that tired old stereotype has already been slung at me a number of times on this thread.
I should mention that when I lived in SA, some of the most vicious racists I knew were working class Brits who had decided to inflict themselves on SA, so that they could enjoy a lifestyle (house with swimming pool, black servants) that they could only wetdream about in the UK."
"The correct term in context for xenophobia is racism. Britain has been careful to disguise its racism, which runs through it like a greasy and poisonous river and which seeps through its every pore, but the frustration of having to face its own falsehood and lies and the lack of honesty and courage, to tackle the REAL problem, the aristocracy and the monarchy, who have duped the British out of liberty, equality and fraternity for so long, is going to bring disgrace and shame and probably the end of the united kingdom. The falsehood of a united kingdom ,that so quickly becomes england when it suits, is evidence of this. The torture, subhuman conditions and mindset, and the maiming and killing of these modern day slaves of the British colonial mentality are collectively a vile indictment of a spineless people , a corrupt government and a poseur judiciary. The truth will out in the end and this may well be it.
There are two responses ( unless you call fence-sitting a third one ) viz. wholehearted support of fascist neo-nazism ( 'What did we fight the war for ?' To make money perhaps ? The sole determinant of the meaning of life ? ) , or wholehearted support for anything which opposes this fascist nihilism. The government seems clearly to be tilted heavily towards the fascist cause. Perhaps they do reveal the secret will of the people of Great Brit after all, even though it's hard to tell for sure, because of the relatively small percentage of the electorate which is required to give them carte blanche with the lives and futures of the people of these isles.
Fight fascism. Fight racism, or incorporate the swastika into the flag and be done with it. This is the testing ground. More so than the economy, but the revelation of the deliberate deceit of the so-called leaders, the so-called bastions of the nation's values, will be the catalyst, through the real value revealed behind the pretty delusions; the wiping off of smug smiles, will reveal the true nature of the true Brit. To quote Peter Gabriel : ' ...And the eyes of the world are watching now..... watching now ! '"
"qwerty99666

And how would you propose we respond to the ""ethnic solidarity"" shower prattling on about ""race replacement"" and ""genocide""?
No one on this thread is advocating mass immigration. However, a number of us (surprisingly few, given this is CiF) have taken issue with the mindless xenophobia and bigotry being peddled against migrants (too many posters seem to be too thick to distinguish between legal and illegal migrants), who are being directly blamed for unemployment in the UK and the fact that some indigenous Brits prefer to live off benefits rather than lift their finger to work.
The simple fact is that legal migration from outside the EU is already controlled and about to be more tightly controlled. As for the EU (where most legal migrants come from), that is one of the quid pro quos of EU membership (something most Brits seem to be unwilling or unable to benefit from by themselves working elsewhere in the EU).
If this is the prevailing mood in the UK (and I do not believe it is), I guess we can look forrward to Nick Griffin as PM in the not too distant future."
"silbuster

And what would make you feel at home?
Some sort of return to the mythological neverland that was the UK before the 1960s?
Lots of white faces, boiled-to-death veg and Morris Dancing?"
"Mungo Teazer,
You are being perfectly hateful. Why? Where did this hate come from? It was not occasioned by silibuster's balefully sad remark. I would lay odds that it has not been occasioned by any Englishman of your experience during the time you have been in their country. Is it just a Freudian projection? That is what it looks like.
If you hate us so, why are you not living in Mbeki's South Africa. Surely that would be more condign for you.
I am close to retirement age, and because I have spent my life in the pampered world of higher education I shall be able to retire in reasonable comfort. But during my lifetime I, like silibuster, have seen my most treasured wealth ripped from me. You make the beautiful world I knew as a child sound despicable. But that is your shame. It was ours and more than that, it was us, a direct product of our essential being. We were safe. We were connected and understood one another. We were a people, a nation with a real collective life.
I would give all I have to see it restored - and I firmly believe that it can be."
"Mungo, great it's 'cliche' time.
yeah Silbuster
In a post economic collapsed Britain, what would you prefer?
people who made decent cups of tea while making orderly queues at water standpipes and empty supermarkets,
Or extra's from Mad Max movies?"
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"sighpost

Let's guess, that would be the white English folk?

Let's guess, that would be them dark skinned migrants?"
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"Mungo
""No one on this thread is advocating mass immigration""
On that one I have to disagree, a number on here definiely have argued for it and the last five years has seen the largest ever influx of people into the UK. As for xenophobia and racism, I have not seen any overt examples of either and I know for a fact from past experience if there were racist comments on CiF they would be moderated pretty quickly.
My concerns are basically twofold. Economiclly I do not believe mass immigration of workers helps an economy, only selective immigration of skills that the nation requires helps. Politically my concern is that no mainstream party is addressing this issue, Labour loves immigration and actively promotes it, the Torie are petrified of being labelled racist and the Lib Dems want even more EU involvement. The fac t that there is no difference in the main parties has led to the BNP being at its, I believe, most popular and that as long as nothing is done the BNP will gain evermore support, something that could lead to future conflicts.
Despite all the posts on here not one person has put forward an answer to a question I have posed a number of times. Can you give me one good reason why lower and semi skilled British workers would want to have large numbers of foreign nationals in the UK directly competing with them for their jobs?"
"white faced boiled veg morris dancers
Lets guess that would be the jack booted closet nazi's?"
"Oh god, it seems the Daily Mail crowd have spilled over CiF as well. I've gotten used to the idea that people can be incredibly ignorant and bigoted, but it still baffles me when people spout the ""unlimited immigration"" nonsense. If anything, Britain's immigration laws are pretty strict, compared to other places. Freedom of movement is a human right, and you can't seriously talk about a ""free market"" without a (reasonably) free movement of labour. A lot more needs to be done to eliminate the barriers to free movement, not the contrary. And if you don't like the fact that Britain is supposedly becoming less ""white"" then you should be free to move to somewhere else that is more to your liking.
It is also irritating when the Daily Mail/BNP crowd posting here repeatedly confuse ""illegal"" immigrants with EU citizens, who have every right to be in Britain (if you don't like it, fine, then vote to have the UK get out of the EU). Britain in fact discriminates even against some EU citizens (Romanians and Bulgarians) when it comes to access to the labour market, on purely xenophobic and paranoid grounds (since there is no economic or even rational reason anyone has ever coherently formulated in defense of this).
I am also looking forward to the ""race-replacement"" of Europe and I'll be actively contributing to it."
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"qwerty99666

I wonder. The ravings of the ""race replacement = genocide"" ethnic solidarity shower are still here, yet I have just had two completely above-board (on any interepretation) posts deleted.

Let me again repeat. There is no mass immigration to this country from outside the EU; it is already controlled and generally only people whose skills or experience are allowed to immigrate here (I think that family reunions for existing migrants is the only real exception. To the extent that there is mass immigration, it is from within the EU (and membership of the EU requires each country to allow citizens of all other EU countries to work there). In any event, most of the Poles who so excited everyone (and who, in my view, are hard-working folk who have greatly benefited the UK), a good many have returned or are returning to Poland. So, frankly, I think that you are grossly exagerrating the issue.

I hope to God that Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories are sane enough not to try to wear the soiled clothes of the BNP to pander to the BNP's bigoted constituency.

Read what I have written above. To the extent that is happening, it is because the UK is a member of the EU. Quite simple, really."
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"I would agree with chapmanthegenius that both the contents of this thread and the results of those elections show that the BNP is in good shape electorally. Where I suspect we might disagree is whether this is a good thing.
For myself, I believe it to be a total disaster that so many English people can be swayed by these racist thugs."
You really have paper thin skin, qwerty. And who have I lost the argument against? Surely you are not actually agreeing with the 'blood and soil' nutters posting about 'race replacement' and genocide? The argument I have put is very simply though you appear quite incapable to get to grips with it. Immigration from outside the EU is pretty tightly controlled already. Immigration, or more accurately temporary migration for economic purposes, is almost exclusively from the EU, which is something that you can also benefit from. I am really not sure how I could lose that argument as surely the meanest intelligence here is able to do the elementary research needed to confirm that those points are true.
Yes, I can give you one good reason. And that is that they have the same opportunities to work in other European countries. And many hundreds of thousands of them do just that. I would have thought that that is quite a compelling reason for supporting free movement of labour across Europe. It is simply a logical nonsense to say that you can have a free market across Europe without also having free movement of peoples across Europe.
"humphjennings - you accuse us of being 'perfectly hateful. There is pretty rich irony in someone who attacks immigrants and immigration as being 'genocidal' getting sniffy about Mungo's robust posts.

Was it immigrants that 'stripped your wealth away from you' and how did they accomplish that theft? We all think our childhood's were safe placid times. I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s and it seems calm compared to the turbulence of today but that's just fantasy. You see by looking at history books that that era was full of upheaqval.
We are going into recession so it not surprising that the extreme right are going to take advantage of the dislocation to blame the usual scape goats."
"humphjennings - ""I, like silibuster, have seen my most treasured wealth ripped from me. You make the beautiful world I knew as a child sound despicable. But that is your shame. It was ours and more than that, it was us, a direct product of our essential being. We were safe. We were connected and understood one another. We were a people, a nation with a real collective life.""
Could you elaborate on that? What wealth has been ripped from you? How is it connected to immigration? What safety do you feel you have lost, and how have you become unconnected? You mention an academic life, but you are dealing in trite anecdotal subjectivities. Would this be a brance of academia that recognises discredited nonsense like Salter and his theory of 'Ethnies'?
When your arguments are stripped down, are you not simply objecting to incomers on the basis of their skin colour?"
"If migration and immigration is so tightly controlled ""compared to other countries"",
why are whole areas of our cities packed to the rafters with immigrants and economic migrants? Doesn't seem very controlled to me. I can not imagine what it must be like in a country that has any less control of it borders.
BTW: I'm neither a racist , nor a thug. Have ""interacted"" with racist thugs a few times . Care to ask me their country of origin?"
You need to distinguish between EU and non-EU migrants. EU migration is uncontrolled in the sense that they go through the passport checks that UK nationals go through at immigration. However Immigration Control can refuse to admit an EU national if his presence on British soil is 'not conducive to the public good'. If he were to claim refugee status at the point of entry then by treaty obligation he would have to be taken in for his claim to be assessed. But I think any EU national claiming refugee status from his EU country of origin is going to have an uphill struggle proving that he meets the international criteria to be treated as a refugee. Anyone know the numbers? It's got to be vanishingly small.
"Mungo

Thanks for the tip, noted.
You are quite a good example actually Mungo, you live in this country but trot out your thinly veiled bile against 'brits' - that pisses people off. Why do you live here? Might it be that SA is a lawless state still bearing the scars of apartheid? So you come here, you enjoy its advantages (and its disadvantages, admittedly) and then come on here and lecture Brits about how they should respond to immigrants, like you, coming into their country, not yours, theirs, i couldnt care less what your passport says - its a bit of paper. If you dont like Brits then you know just where you can go, the gated communities protected by mercs and served by black housemaids in South Africa, i hear its a charming place, a lot of natural beauty and good weather. Leave the pathetic Brits to themselves eh.
Your comments about having English friends is exactly the same as the old, ""Some of my best friends are black"" line isnt it? I find it astonishing how comfortable people are with moving to another country and then lecturing the 'natives' (such a dirty word, i know) on how they should live, how they should accomodate you, and how they should approach mass immigration. I have a feeling Saffa men wouldnt be too welcoming if i tried the same thing, i would probably be assaulted within minutes.
How are the 'vicious racists Brits' you mention any different from the thousands of Saffas who come here every year because it is a country of culture, order and history, lacking explicit racial segregation and lawlessness, something they could only 'wet dream about' in SA? How many people move to SA every year? As many as UK? Less? Why?
You are right about a certain type of Brit nationalist, but you get those fantacists in every country in the world, Saffas certainly arent short of national pride, thats for sure. But in general your whole tone is one of bitterness and malevolence, i presume thats why you have had quite a few posts removed - you should remember where you are and remember a bit of manners - when in Rome, dont lecture the Romans on how they should welcome Carthaginians.
As for the magic passport, my housemate is a kiwi girl, she has an Irish passport (as well as NZ one) because of her grandfather, she was born in NZ and has spent a total of one week in Ireland. Should she rock up in Ireland and lecture the Irish on how they should welcome her, and how superior is the worth ethic of her fellow Kiwis compared to the lazy Irish? I would be interested to see how that went down in a pub....
Really, if you dont like this country, or its people, leave. We wont be offended. SA is a beatiful country and, apparently, is full of incredibly hard working, intelligent, well educated and fascinating locals. Sounds like paradise."
"Out of interest, Mungo, how many of the following do you think reside in the UK at present:
Pakistanis
Indians
Bangladeshis
Somalians
West Indians
Nigerians
Ozzies
Kiwis
Saffas
Just some rough figures, what do you reckon? In a nutshell, you're talking utter bollocks."
"One suspects that the attraction of this country to some of our ""legal"" immigrant chums on this thread might just be the ""free"" health; education and safety net of Welfare benefits that this country provides to anyone with enough nous to play the system.
What about the novel idea that you can only benefit if you've contributed, also suspect that it might just put the brakes on the queues waiting in France to strap themselves under lorries before leaping out and claiming Asylum because they're being persecuted because of .........., well just fill in the blanks."
"JayReilly
Of those chaps (and ladies) that you list, how many of them came in the 1950s and 1960s when jobs were being advertised overseas and how many came in under the current immigration control regime?"
Bristolboy, i dont know, nor do you, nor does the author, nor does the government.
Actually I think Mungo's been quite careful not to generalise about Britons but to restrict his more robust comments for those posting against him on this thread. A few racial purity nutters have turned up but they are an embarrassment to your side of the argument, as some of your more perceptive commentators have noted. As for the rest, it's a mixture of protectionism and conservatism, and naturally enough these feelings are more prominent at times of severe economic dislocation. Ironically thanks to the recession, the extent of economic migration has lessened and if thanks to Brown's economic mismanagement, the recession is worse in the UK than the rest of Europe, will continue to decline. In fact, many British workers may make use of their freedom to work elsewhere in Europe if the recesssion continues to bite.
"Funnily enough, when the usual suspects talk about protecting the cultural and historical rights and practices of minorities from places like Pakistan or wherever, there doesnt seem to be this flock of questions, ""What is being Pakistani?"", ""What is Pakistani identity?"", ""Could you describe what is uniquely Pakstani culture?"", ""So they reckon they are all Pakistani pure bloods do they? Absurd, they probably have all sorts of immigrant genes..."", ""Fascists."", ""Nazis"", ""Brown supremacists.""
No? No. You get none of the above. It is taken as read that every country, except England, but including Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, has culture, has unique identity, a unique people, a society, common cultural bonds, and it is also taken as read that those people would like to preserve that culture and identity. Thats why the PC champs have so relentlessly banged on about the rights of minorities to protect their precious culture. Yet the very same people entirely change their tune when the subject of England is raise, when it is England, the very notion of Englishness is mocked, ridiculed, interrogated and grilled, how very dare these colonial vermin think they actually have a culture, the cheek of it, they are nothing mroe than Nazis for expressing concern at the very rapidly changing nature of their country.
You cant have it both ways people. Either nations do have bonds and culture and they ALL have a right to try and preserve it, or none do. One or the other. It cannot be one rule for everyone except England, thats known as racism. Why is it wrong for English people to want what you so gladly support for other nationalities? The Welsh and Scots are plucky little heroes, overflowing with national pride and culture, of course they must have self rule, their own parliament, etc etc, when they hang flags from their homes, patriotism bless em! When the English take the same approach to their nation and culture, they are literally called 'BNP' 'Nazis'. Its laughable.
I know there are plenty of vile little fascists and BNP types standing on the same side of the argument as me, there were also plenty of xenophobes, racists and thugs on Churchills side of the argument against the appeasers. They dont make an argument wrong, any more than Nelson Mandela being on one side of an argument makes it right. It is the same as arguing from authority, and is weak argument."
"Mungo has described certain types of Brits, thats right, but the overall tone is quite bitter. Someone might rail against certain types of 'blacks', i dont think you would cite that as proof of their racial tolerance, you would, i suspect, label them a racist with some confidence.
You are absolutely right about the genetic purity nutters, what can i say. Genetic purity died when the wheel was invented. I've met a fair few Indians, 2nd or third generation, and they are as old fashioned 'English' as it gets, not all, but a fair few, extremely 'English' in character and attitude, accent, everything, the sort of folk it would be lovely to introduce to the genetic purity brigade. Culture is, i believe, where the real argument lays, and culture is evidently not limited by race - but when numbers breach certain levels, it is hard to integrate people, and then native culture is lost - i dont think thats fair on locals wherever they come from, be it England, Wales, SA, America, Spain, Bangladesh, wherever.
National culture is being eroded for neoliberal economic policy and cheap labour for shareholders, thats tragic and, i think, beyond question. That is the reality. The left have relentlessly defended a policy that was conceived of and implemented with the simple aims of giving business cheap, flexible labour, keep wages down, keeping inflation down, and fuelling housing demand which in turn fed the credit boom and made home owners feel they were living in cash machines. It is pure neoliberalism, the pure economics of the right, and it is viciously defended by those who pride themselves on their leftist credentials, and they often dont even realise the hypocrisy, and rank hypocrisy it is too.
Are there no idiots on your side of the debate? Doesnt every debate have idiots on every side?"
Yeah, I hear this all the time. What I don't see is any indication that an attenuation of English culture is happening in practice. Who is preventing you from engaging with your culture and how are they doing it specifically? Or are you referring to the traditional stories of council jobsworths 'banning Christmas' which appear in the Daily Mail at this time of year. Though on further investigation they never seem to live up the the headlines.
And downward pressure on wages and 'intensification' as the Marxists call it hasn't happened before Commonweath and European immigration? The best way of countering those threats is through organised labour and strong employment laws. A worker is a wroker is a worker. An economic migrant who has settled here has as much a stake in making a good life for himself and his family as any 'nature' worker. To see him as the threat rather than as a comrade is deeply devisive and plays into the hands of the extreme rights. Basically, I am distinctly sceptical of those on the right who oppose immigration to preserve the rights of British workers when they have proved to care little for the rights of those workers in the past. The reason why the left opposes attacks on immigrants is because they are the wrong target. Economic liberalism is the target and it will continue to function whether or not you curtail EC economic migration.
"So let's just put this immigration open borders and HRA debate to the vote and ask the voters exactly what sort of society they want, as opposed to what those in power think we SHOULD want and what THEY think is good for us.
Nothing wrong with a good dose of democracy methinks."
"A generation of shutting down manufacturing in the Uk and creating a service based economy will certainly lead to long term unemployment and a serious crash after the feeding frenzy of selling off the valuable assets of the nation.
More important and interesting than silly migration figures that always seem tainted by xenophobia would be to look at which wealth generating assets have remained in British/Uk hands.
Britain's wealth in the last four hundred years is based based on the the exploitation of foreign workers and their sweat and toil. nothing has changed.
Sustainable Well paid Job creation for British citizens is fairly easy to achieve if there is political will and foresight. Unfortunately that does not exist in the Uk and is exampled by the lack of funding interest for the manufacture of sustainable energy resources (a whole new industry) wind solar algae etc. For which there seems no end of excuses for inaction However when it comes to bailing out the thieves that have robbed the nation blind, nicked our older citizens pensions, and saddled our children with the bill it is all fine and dandy.
Grown up thinking please."
"Harry,
""What I don't see is any indication that an attenuation of English culture is happening in practice. Who is preventing you from engaging with your culture and how are they doing it specifically? Or are you referring to the traditional stories of council jobsworths 'banning Christmas' which appear in the Daily Mail at this time of year. Though on further investigation they never seem to live up the the headlines.""
You honestly dont think there is any dilution of culture when a few million people enter a country within a decade, combined with the explicitly divisive policy of multiculturalism from the left that actively, at times, suppresses native culture to allow minorities to indulge their own culture? You really believe that? Its not just about these Xmas Mail stories, its about the attempt to make English culture and equal among other cultures in England - thats wrong, because this is England. So, other festivals and things have been championed whilst English ones played down, to avoid the naturally stronger English culture swamping minority cultures (stronger numerically). We have our laws ignored by religious minorities because 'its how they do things' - other cultures are given precedence over our legal system. Then there is the shouting down and cries of racist thrown against any English person who isnt completely thrilled by mass, open door, uncontrolled immigration. That is part of it too - the attempt to mock the notion of Englishness, usually seen in the phrqase, ""But what IS Englishness?"" A rhetorical question aimed at showing the target for the racist fool they are, how dare they think Englishness exists, only other nations have culture that should be recognised.
Who is preventing me? This is disingenuous. Its like me saying to Cath Elliott, ""But who has really raped you lately Cath?"" Knife crime - ""But who has stabbed you lately?"" It is disingenuous.
""An economic migrant who has settled here has as much a stake in making a good life for himself and his family as any 'nature' worker.""
Not if he plans to return in 5 or 10 years, or whatever, they are here only for money, their only interest in society is how much wealth they can extract to take back 'home' - if you remember, johnny foreigner is allowed to like his home country and culture, so they often like returning there. What do you think gets treated better, rented homes, or bought homes?
""And downward pressure on wages and 'intensification' as the Marxists call it hasn't happened before Commonweath and European immigration?""
Well thats ok then, two wrongs make a right.
""The reason why the left opposes attacks on immigrants is because they are the wrong target.""
They are, thats right - the right target is the government who made the policy, and those of the left who supported it so zealously - and that is who is usually attacked for it. Migrants do what anyone does, they get what they can for themselves and their family, that is human nature. Only idiots think this the fault of immigrants themselves. But that is sidestepping the issue slightly i think. The issue is about immigration policy, and whether native culture has been targeted (by the rampaging, almost religious passion of those still suffering from white mans guilt - you can purge your sins by railing against your white brethren and holding up foreigners as hard working, magnficent beacons of virtue, be cleansed!). Im not saying we are facing genocide, that we cant practice our culture, or any other hyperbole, but i think your position is utterly untenable and if i had the time could provide about 2000 links worth of evidence in support of that - incidents where native culture is suppressed in some form, or trivialised. There is plenty of middle ground between foaming BNP grunt and Shami Chakerabati.
I dont think its plausible to maintain your line that everyone is delusional, its all a Daily Mail campaign of hate, i never read the mail, i have been brought up in a liberal family and have known no paper other than the Guardian. I wonder what % of the pop would agree with me, compared with those agreeing with you on this issue? Far from being a minority of Mail halfwits (although they are certainly included), i think you would probably find the vast majority of the country actually agrees, to varying degrees, that the country has changed a lot and they are concerned about the place of their culture and heritage. In London Lite, 94% of people said they wanted a serious drop in immigration. Are they all Mail reading apes? A majority of British Asians want immigration reduced, are they BNP types? And could anyone name a country that has voted for a manifesto containing mass, open door style immigration?"
"Such irony...
Those filthy Brits are just so damn racist, i cant stand the greasy, poisonous vermin!"
"_AT_JayReilly

So you are saying that you don't know whether there is any sort of ""situation"" which might be described as ""mass immigration"" from those places into this country then.
Glad we got that one cleared up."
"I think he also said that you don't know if there is either and you didn't say anything to prove him wrong.
Have we cleared that one up as well?"
I'm not the one panicking about British culture being swamped by immigrants I don't know exist, though, am I.
"Well I asked you for some specific examples, which I think was a reasonable request if the examples are as plentiful as you claim. I am a mathematician by trade so I have a low tolerance for the sort of cri-de-coeur waffle you have committed to this thread.

More waffle. Statistics can be adduced to support or refute the claim that there are more or fewer stabbings. I am not even asking you for statistics to demonstrate your claims for English culture being done down, Just some unambiguous cases.

So you'd support economic migrants who were prepared to make a long term commitment to the UK?

You miss my point entirely. This is not about immigration. It is about the way that capitalism works.

Since you seem to care about it so passionately I would think it in your interests to compile some specific examples that imply a systemic, policy lead attempt to trivialise British culture.

Given that you have written hundreds of words in response to me without adducing one clear cut example, I deduce you are at the very least completely unclear about what constitutes a diminishment of English culture. I have no idea whether the vast majority of the population feel as you do. We can be sure however that they do not feel sufficiently strongly about it to vote for parties that would do something radical about it."
"I'm writing this from a village in rural France. The mayor tells me that, apart from us - and we only spend part of the year here - there are several other English families, some Dutch and a number of other ""immigrants"". Two Brits did some landscaping work for us, another one mowed our meadow.
But do the locals feel that their culture is under threat, are there fewer cheeses available than there once were, are people drinking Newcastle Brown instead of the local wines?
Nope."
"Bristolboy,
Sophistry.
You say,
""""Of those chaps (and ladies) that you list, how many of them came in the 1950s and 1960s when jobs were being advertised overseas and how many came in under the current immigration control regime?""
I respond,
""""I dont know, nor do you, nor does the government.""
You respond,
""""So you are saying that you don't know whether there is any sort of ""situation"" which might be described as ""mass immigration"" from those places into this country then. Glad we got that one cleared up.""
Lets look at it. I have contended that there is enough people in this country of non EU descent to justify the notion that we have had 'mass immigration' from outside the EU. You asked for figures as to who arrived in which decade. Firstly, thats irrelevant - either there are 10 million Spanish in the UK or there are 1 million, or 100,000, whatever, whether they arrived in the 60s, 70s or 80s doesnt make much difference to the question of whether you could call it 'mass immigration'.
Specifically, you claim i 'dont know if there is any sort of situation which might be described as mass immigration' . Thats patently false, and quite misleading. I am claiming there is certainly a situation of mass immigration (outside NuLab/Guardian circles at least), i dont think even some NuLab ministers would deny we have had 'mass immigration'. What the specific divide of arrivals by decade is remains unknown to me, you and the government, but it has no bearing on my contention that we have had mass immigration - i am making this claim based on the number of people of immediate foreign descent in the country at the minute. I have a feeling the numbers would support me rather than you. It is partly because we have had so much immigration that we dont have accurate figures, so to claim the lack of figures as evidence to the contrary is a little odd, to say the least. I dont think we know how many Iraqis we have killed, but im pretty sure we have killed a lot, no? Should we pat ourselves on the back for the lack of accurate figures showing how many we killed in our invasion?
Are you seriously objecting to the idea that Britain has had 'mass immigration' in the last decade? Madness. Pure madness and dogma.
""I'm not the one panicking about British culture being swamped by immigrants I don't know exist, though, am I.""
Who is 'panicking'? Why do you need to resort to this emotive smearing to anyone who has issues with mass immigration?
And as for the 'dont know exist', see above. Your logic leaves a fair amount to be desired."
"JayReilly
It somewhat surprises me that anyone other than vile white racist British vermin would want to live here, having said that could it be that the tide of virtually unregulated (until recently)immigrants could be responsible for a sea change in our attitudes to immigrants."
"BristolBoy- Rapidly fill up 40-50% of your villages housing stock with imported workers and their families and ask your French neighbours the same question then. You are welcomed and warmly tolerated, because you haven't displaced your neighbours culture. It is only fair and right to tolerate some immigrants, but not to loose the environment that allows for this tolerance and allow some to become integrated members of a community. There is a natural process of integration which can not happen when every street in half the area of a village or town is full of immigrants or migrant workers.
Don't walk into the 40-50% either, I'm not trying to win an argument by making anyone look silly."
"Harry,
I could find you plenty of evidence if i had the time, as im sure most people could, bot google trawling is time consuming and this is my last day before breaking up. If i give only a few examples, as well, tey would seem trivial, and it is mostly a large number of issues which if considered in isolation are fairly trivial. So, off the top of my head without much thought, was it Tessa JOwell who wanted to change the proms to make them more 'inclusive'? Has a school not recently moved its nativity play to january to accomodate another faith based play? Did a schools not propose making all children have halal meat for their Xmas dinner so as not to have to separate up the food? Have some councils not tried to avoid the name 'xmas' etc? Yes, the Mail loves these things, that doesnt mean they dont happen. Plenty are also utter bollocks, but are you claiming they all are?
Your mathematical upbringing might be impressive if i were an arts student but, alas, i did maths at A level and Economics at degree level, so your love of numbers doesnt inspire me with too much awe im afraid.
""I am not even asking you for statistics to demonstrate your claims for English culture being done down, Just some unambiguous cases.""
I've just provided some. Would you consider public opinion polls as evidence? Rigorous enough for your gargantuan intellect? Also, Scotland and Wales get their own parliament, we dont. We dont have an English anthem, they do. Hindu burial practices have in some cases trumped our laws, have they not? Muslims 'halal' methods of slaughtering animals trumps our cultural practice of killing animals humanely. Our taxes fund faith schools that teach children in a manner utterly at odds with English culture. To display the national flag is seen as an open identifier of a nationalist thug - what other country shares this situation? People who raise concerns over their culture are told, in effect, they dont really have a culture so stop moaning. In Leicester, i understand, there is a call to prayer broadcast across the city? And there was a reqeust for the same in Oxford? There have been requests for sharia laws, and now our courts do give backing to sharia judgements. In many classes, the majority of kids dont speak English as a first language, if you sent your kid to such a school, how do you think that would impact on their 'Englishness'? Their cultural sense of belonging?
As i say, Harry, i understand the call for nice, tidy numbers, but not everything in life is a quadratic. The above list could probably go on for quite a few thousand words, as i say, in isolation they are small, it is the combination, the atmosphere, the direction. When people complain about BNP and bigots and racists, would it be ok to respond, ""This is all so much waffle, show me numbers""? What numbers would you need Harry? BNP members? Number of racist attacks? Would that tell the story?
I have a lot of love for numbers myself, but horses for courses, Harry.
""So you'd support economic migrants who were prepared to make a long term commitment to the UK?""
Amongst other criteria, absolutely. It isnt immigration i am talking about, it is mass immigration coupled with poor government control and 'multiculturalism'. Are you actually saying the policy for the last ten years has been spot on? You do know even NuLab has performed a giant U turn?
""It is about the way that capitalism works.""
The classic response - thats the way it is, dont interfere. The point is harry, you can change things, neoliberalism isnt the only way, and mobility of labour is a big component of neoliberal policy, it doesnt have to be that way, it isnt inherent in human beings.
""policy lead attempt to trivialise British culture.""
Its not all policy led, though i do believe it has been recognised in social science degrees that to get 'equality' with unequal groups, you have to treat them differently. English culture would naturally swamp minority culture, its a numbers thing (should please you), so it has been recognised that you may have to suppress majority culture to actually achieve 'equality'. I did an essay on this very thing not a week ago for the OU, so i assure you, its not myth. But, aside from policy led, there is also the choices of PC bureaucrats (sounding very Mailesque now, apologies) - so it isnt all policy led, as a lot of the examples show whern you look into them, it is the moronic choice of individuals usually. But the sea they swim in is the same one you are spouting from now.
""We can be sure however that they do not feel sufficiently strongly about it to vote for parties that would do something radical about it.""
Correct. We are one of the only countries i can think of that resisted fascism in the last century, and the BNP still have a very low take up here despite millions of unannounced arrivals that came without any referendum or manifesto pledge from, NuLab. Why? British people are pretty decent and tolerant."
"Sophistry? Not at all. lets just take one element of it and say that the vast majority of people of non-EU origin in this country arrived in the 1950s/60s and far fewer are arriving now. Then we do not currently have a ""mass immigration"" situation do we. We may (but see below) have had one but, hey, we've had 'em before over the decades/centuries/millennia.
Now, as to a few figures. According to the ever-reliable Wikipedia (irony) at the last census in 2001 something like 8% of all UK residents were born abroad, anywhere abroad. I haven't the time or energy to dig out the figures but I am damn certain that the vast majority of those who have arrived since then have come from within the EU.
So to take the country as a whole, the non-EU element is going to be distinctly less than 8% of the whole. OK, the spread will vary - it's bound to I know villages where no-one even comes from as far away as the next valley - but it does not, to me, seem anywhere near enough to cause any of the cultural problems that Harry keeps asking you for examples of (without success)."
"Nothing like anecdote to clinch an argument....
Few issues, at present there is a handful of English, English who bought a home, have their own, earnt, money, and dont require French handouts. They also dont require the locals to pay taxes to fund an English School, do they? Do they ask that they can follow English law, with the backing of French courts? Do the Brits undercut the local workers? Cost them jobs? Does their council tax have to go to translate every document into 90 languages? Are they competing with jobless locals for social housing? Do French kids no find themselves in classes where 80% of their fellow pupils cant speak french as a first language? Have French cultural practices been scaled down to allow English ones to flourish?
Now im taking a guess here, but i have a feeling your situation in sunny France is a tad different from what we are discussing in UK - France has about half the population density, for one, and, for two, as i remember there has been anger in France among locals about English buying up houses and forcing up prices? Im pretty certain i have heard of such. Wasnt there a bombing in France or Spain? And thats English with money, self supporting, people whose culture is fairly similar to their own.
I dont think your anecdote does your argument many favours."
"Bristolboy - i dont want a row but i think you have clearly twisted the debate to a degree.
It was claimed that there has not been 'mass immigration' to Britain from outside EU, thats patently false, and i said so. I asked for estimates for how many people of non EU descent (say within the last 3 generations) there are in the country? I would just like to see peoples estimates for the countries i mentioned. Then, i would like to see the claim repeated that we 'havent had mass immigration from outside the EU'."
"Presumably that's why you don't give any examples of such practices actually happening in an attempt to support yours?
I imagine harry has given up waiting now and I'm going to do the same."
"Mungo sez:

I think we all understand the EU versus non-EU dimensions of the immigration debate, and I think most people would probably agree that the influx of workers and others from the East European accession states since 2004 has been an aberration that is unlikely to be repeated. Unless, that is, Turkey joins the EU and Britain once again decides to unilaterally pursue an open-border policy vis-à-vis the new entrant, as it did in the case of the 2004 entrants.
But it is simply incorrect to state that there is no mass immigration from outside the EU to the UK. Each year the Home Office publishes its statistics on the Control of Immigration, and this includes, amongst other categories, statistics on the number of people from outside the EU who have been granted the right to permanent residence. Since 2000 that has averaged 135,000 per year, over two thirds of which are admitted for the purpose of ‘family reunion or formation. The countries which provided the most new permanent residents in 2007 were, in order, India, Pakistan, the Philippines, Iraq, South Africa (!), Zimbabwe, Nepal, Nigeria, China and Bangladesh.
Another important matter that Mungo is ignoring in making his claim, or perhaps he isnt even aware of it, is that since 2003 the UK has been admitting each year an average of 150,000 non-EU nationals under the work-permit scheme, all of whom will have an opportunity to claim permanent residence status after 5 years employment. We can expect to see this cohort entering the immigration channel in 2008, although that will not be reflected in the statistics until they are made public in August 2009."
"HarryTheHorse said
""However Immigration Control can refuse to admit an EU national if his presence on British soil is 'not conducive to the public good'.""
How often does this actually happen? One of my gripes with the EU is that other EU countries (certainly the A8) don't have a sex offenders register. This means that while we have endless controversies over whether the UK register should be publicly known or not, if a rapist or child abuser heads here from Latvia (or anywhere else in the EU, I believe, though I think some western countries are introducing a register now) not even the police will know anything about him.
There have been several cases of such folk with existing criminal records committing rapes and murders in this country. I'm not saying Poles are any more likely to commit such things than anyone else, but its bizarre that we treat foreign offenders more lightly than domestic ones. The A8 countries should have been required to set up such a register as part of the terms for letting them in - its another example of the way the accession was totally mis-managed. But then just about everything in relation to the EU is botched and mis-managed."
"Where the BNP have active members who go out canvassing they get results.
Often this is done on a shoestring .
In Ibstock in North West Leicestershire, Ivan Hammonds was just 15 votes from victory as the Tories took the seat from Labour. It was another agonising evening for the brave BNP candidate who was only 64 votes from victory in January when Labour won the seat. Congratulations to Wayne McDermott and his team for achieving another great election result for the British National Party in the East Midlands,
North West Leicestershire District Council
Ibstock & Heather Ward
Virge Richichi (Con) 660
Ivan Hammonds (BNP) 645
Corinne Male (Lab) 614
David Wyatt (Lib-Dem) 174
BNP Percentage: 30.9%
May 2007: Con 737,731,599. Lab 707,620,559. UKIP 411 Lib-Dem 222
Jan 2008: Lab 699 BNP 637 Con 515 Lib-Dem 411
Be prepared for a lot more BNP wards as the BNP start to utilize the professional political/ media skills that have been learnt by the three formerly main parties. Most importantly they have a message which resonates with what
many millions of people feel in this country.
It isn't impossible that Stoke On Trent will become the first BNP run council . Once they can demonstrate they can run a council without driving around in an open topped Beetle and staging Night Of The Amazons in Trentham Gardens, then you can expect more councils to be taken over.
I rather like the idea of a torchlight procession myself. Children, young people old people coming together in the darkness , celebrating the existence of their community, feeling it, silently watching and understanding others in the firelight. Clear night -Stars and Southbound flights overhead.
You will have made this as much as the ones in the park , that night.
Good job the BNP are a bunch of moderates, there is a lot worse that could happen."
"_AT_Bristolboy:
Forget statistics and numbers, open your fcuking eyes for, Christ's sake. Have you been to anywhere in inner London lately? It feels about as English as Marrakesh. Is this acceptable to you? Perhaps. Are you also capable of accepting that many people such as myself are not at all happy about this state of affairs. We grew up in these areas. They were transformed into virtual third-world hell-holes with neither our permission nor consent. Why should I be forced to move away just to feel as though I still live in England (or for that matter, Europe).
The numbers of non-EU migrants that have been allowed into this country over the past 10 years is simply astonishing. Entire parts of cities are unrecognisable from recent memory. What makes things even worse (and in my view, is a criminal failure of this government) is that these immigrants given state handouts, free housing and are not even required to integrate or learn English in return - in fact, they are positively encouraged to retain their culture and to return home for a wife or husband. How can a place ever develop a sense of community, of shared values when they don't even speak same language or have any loyalty whatsoever to this country?
I am sick and tired of people like you bringing up the racist card every time someone disagrees with your neo-liberal open door immigration policies. My family came to this country in the 1950's when the economy was in ruins and we were recovering from WW2. They helped rebuild the country and earned their place here - my mum lived here and paid taxes for 20 YEARS before she managed to get a council home. I am by no means a supporter of the BNP and as my father is a Portuguese who originates from the subcontinent, I very much doubt they'd want me for a member anyway.
However, I recognise the fact that if those who hold your POV continue to hold sway in this country, the backlash will eventually be brutal and it will be people like ME who get it in the neck, while people like you will be able to ride things out quite nicely. I think the writing is on the wall for us as a nation anyway - uncontrolled mass immigration, combined with the US setting our foreign policy and the EU our domestic laws is going to be the end of us.
I guess it doesn't matter anyway - the game's already over and we've lost. In the end we are going to be a culturally mongrel nation with no sense of shared values, a deep sense of shame about our past, no control over our borders, laws, place in the world or sense of direction, and with nothing of worth to offer anyone other than a place to do business on the cheap. In other words - more of an east end market or Morroccan souk than a modern nation state with it's own unique sense of identity.
If you need further proof - I offer the ECB selling its soul first to Murdoch and then to Stanford as exhibit A. I think emigration is not much a desire as it is an inevitability for me. And I'm not going to be looking for another England either - I want to live in a country that is proud of who and what it stands for. I want my kids to proud of both their flag and their roots. Otherwise, what's the point of living anywhere? If you reduce life to making a cheap buck, it ceases to have any meaning whatsoever."
"I hereby declare the Republic of Larkshallia. Stamp to include images of Epping Forest, semi-urban foxes, and shattered glass in all bus stops.
Except, everyone will probably mis-pronounce it as 'Larksh-allia' instead of 'Larks-hallia'.
Who wants their new-found country to be mis-pronounced by all and sundry? Sadly, I fear I'll be forced back into a corner on 'Grafitti-ville'. Except the competition for that will be fierce."
Pollok Free State lives on in our collective consciousness.
The Arabs by virtue of most of the ownership and control of over 50% of the Stock Market have their own "Londonstan". No wonder the Saudi King was just there for the British Royals to suck up all the Saudi oil revenues, bite the bullet and bow to the new owners.
"Up here in Leeds, the Independent Property Developers' Republic of West Yorkshire is celebrating fifteen years of existence. Having usurped the role of the city council and accountable to no one, they have been erecting large structures on every piece of land that is available. Sites are fenced off, flags flutter in the breeze and giant awnings are hung everywhere, announcing the improvement of the image of construction.
Three years ago, they threw a huge party, crammed full with g-list celebrities, to announce the city's brand new identity. 'Leeds Love It Live It (C)(R)(TM)' they declared. Information packs celebrating their achievements are regularly thrust through the letter boxes of the startled residents, proclaiming their wondrous achievement of dynamically thrusting this city into the super league of European cities, while teams of builders roam around the dwindling social housing stock reversing the hot and cold water outlets and leaving allen keys to lock the new uPVC doors and windows.
The new office blocks are crammed full of rooms where service providers with their brand new tablet PC notebooks (which they don't know how to operate) reallocate the meagre government funding to design processes, procedures, key process indicators and performance matrices that do not and never can work, while the service users sit on the end of a call centre hot line again and again and again to be denied the services which are advertised in their glossy brochures.
I believe it is called modernisation and it doesn't work."
I don't recall passports at Pollok Free State - although there was plenty of Glaswegian wit on offer and the porridge was beyond compare. Happy days...
As President for Life of the BPLF, could I just point out that the Brislington People's Liberation Front liberated Brislington (in Bristol) in 1977. We then annexed the rest of the world in 1978. Unfortunately, no one seems to have noticed. Shame really. Our symbol consists of a green seven-pointed star, set against the background of a pint glass of ale (a sleever rather than a jug, of course), and all members are called Bill. As an independence movement we pre-date Thatcherism, which, as with every government since, was of course an invalid government - real power lay with the BPLF. Of course, we couldn't be arsed most of the time. So sorry about that.
"Does anybody know what happened to Frestonia?
Did they get to keep their houses?"
"Good grief. No he doesn't. He makes a vague statistical guess and provides no actual examples. Would it have been difficult to have put a specific quote from a bigot if it is so prevalent?
Real bigots won't change their veiws by going on 'equality training'. If anything it only adds to their gripe towards political correctness'. It might be actually useful to justify your friend's job by provided examples of how equality training is actaully eradicating bigotry, rather than being a huge waste of time and resources."
"nonplussed
what in the world could be an ""equalities trainer"".
What do they do in a classrooom?
Talk to people? Put the trainees in role play sitautions?
What is a bigot?
The article seems to be written with the implication that ""we"" all know what a bigot is.
does it mean a racist, sexist hypocrite?
If that is the case - and maybe it isn't? - why don't you, the journalist, state that?
It could well be that an ""equalities trainer"" is some strange form of thought police, telling us how to behave and act.
No idea
why have I wasted my time reading this rubbish?"
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"We actual had a very good equalities training that ran in-house , no need for expensive ‘experts’ like your friend, the corner stone of which was that everyone can be a bigot and that it is action not thoughts which make the difference.
‘everything would be all right if only the malcontents would stop creating the problems’
I wonder has he ever thought that he is actual being played and some of those 13 are only telling what he wants to hear , while the other two are being more honest but he rights them off as bigots because they fail to play the game and share his outlook not because they are?
Next time you see him ask him one question, does he believe that it’s possible for others views to be right and his wrong in this area.

TichyJr you know what calling anyone that does not agree with you a bigot makes you, don’t you?"
This article was made for the refugees from Uncle Rupert's pay-wall.
Yeah, the article is light on detail but I really like it for what it does provide - the 2/15 figure, the phrase 'right now travellers', and, what I think might be the truest thing I've ever read:
I thought it was just a trailer for a proper article. It sounds fascinating. :)
I liked Atlanta's slogan - The City Too Busy To Hate!
"""We all think we're basically good,""
Do ""we"" ? I don't."
"This article is just the kind of entertaining nonsense that makes the Guardian worth reading. It could quite easily be a spoof, but isn't. It is thin on substance but loaded with the author's opinion (or bigotry).
Shock horror- some people don't think the way I do even after they've been 'trained' in the one true Guardian way. Oh dear, not very liberal are we?"
"I'm out of work; 10% of this city is now East European (BBC figures).
I don't like being unemployed, but if I mention them, I'm a bigot.

Please send me his details; I'll swap with him.
Gizza Job............"
"PS. A friend works for the council, he was telling me about the diversity and equality officers who will all be shielded from the cuts.
I asked him what they do. He's worked in the same building as them for 15 years and could only tell me that they come in late, go to lots of meetings, and go home early.
Also, that, although it isn't officially declared policy, they are all non white."
Having encountered too many double standards in the field of 'equal' opportunities - there's no such thing as sexism against men, only white people in a predominantly white society can be racist, non-white people need all the leg ups they can get despite the fact they may be highly educated people from solid middle class backgrounds etc I utterly despise the whole field as it presently stands. When 'equal' opportunities is genuinely interested in equality - and consistency - count me in. Until then count on my contempt Jeromes of this world.
"newlabournewdanger: I don't give much of a toss what people think at home, if they believe there's a vast Jewish/Muslim/black/gay/female (or any combination thereof) conspiracy to bring down society and want to listen to recordings of the Nuremberg rallies, dress up in white hoods in their homes or socialise with like-minded folk that's up to them.
When they have to work with other people who are Jewish/Muslim/black/gay/women (or any combination thereof), however, they need to understand that their prejudices really aren't welcome and are, apart from anything else, deeply unprofessional. If they learn along the way that their beliefs are stupid and barkingly insane or just learn to think, that's all to the good, but frankly if they want to be dickheads in their own time, well as long as they're not breaking the law that's their lookout - it's fairly secondary I'd say.
I realise it's PC Gone Mad, The World's Going To Hell In A Handcart and other Riochard Littlejohn catchphrases, etc etc etc, but a policeman or nurse or anyone else who's going to treat their ''customers'' differently solely because they're in some religious/ethnic/racial group that person harbours great animosity towards really isn't going to be very good at their job."
"People that are sent on diversty training or equality training are more likely to be bigots in need of reform than the typical person in the street.
They may not be uncommon, but that does not make them representative"
"""Right now travellers, gay people and eastern Europeans sit top of the list.""
Wow great progress, the list used to be so much longer. Good work Briton, the anti depressants are working."
This is like one side of someone having a conversation down the pub. At first I thought I was reading the first paragraph of an article, then I realised the paragraph WAS the article. No details, no depth, not enough to make a piece of news, a feature or even an opinion/comment piece. Mr Muir, this is not journalism!!
"Foom


Yes, agreed -I thought my pc was playing up, and I'd only downloaded the introductory part. Ok, it says something but it doesn't really get into the nitty gritty as much as would likely have been helpful.
Was it really worth paying someone to product just this?"
asia: I agree with you there. It's a very odd semi-article, more of a half-conversation - ''My pal Jerome was telling me..." and, er, that's it.
"Why are they 'bigots'? Who decides that label? What do they actually say?
Where's the empowerment in repeating what you think someone who has influence over your career wants you to say?"
"_AT_Clunie

The people who are unable to respond to the common humanity of any other person on the basis of his/her race, gender or beliefs are a tiny minority, and almost certainly not exclusively white Anglo Saxon, Protestant male heterosexuals. The people who are likely to be irritated to a greater or lesser extent by being required to attend one of Mr Mack's lectures is probably the overwhelming majority.
In fact if the dreaded Con-Dem reign of terror is looking to save public money it could start by scrappng such nonsense for the public sector. If its looking to make a bonfire of petty regulations, it could start with whatever legislation compels private industry to think this is a worthwhile expenditure of their resources."
I wonder if a female equalities trainer is paid the same as a male?
I really hate those bloody bigots. They're all bastards.
"This is just a terrible article.
1. For me you have hi-jacked the proper definition of a 'bigot'
Person extremely intolerant of others and irrespective of reasoning. Example of bigot: Dr. Ian Paisley
2. The 2 people in the room have every right to feel threatened. You should not take that away from them. Two observations:
a) Wealthy people moving out of cities, buying up rural property have driven up property taxes to the point in some areas where the 'indigenous' youths can not afford to remain where their forefathers lived.
b) Poor immigrants moving into city areas, have in many instances, brought increased levels of crime.
It is TRULY bigoted to ignore the 'prejudices' of those who YOU label as 'bigots'. Their prejudices are based upon experience. Until you alter their experience...."
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"Questions I'd love to ask an 'Equality Trainer' at an seminar
1. What would you do if gypsies moved next door?"
Is this a joke? If anything was more likely to re-enforce stereotypical views of this type of work I cannot think of it. The sheer magnitude of the laziness exhibited by the author and the sub who allowed this to enter the public domain is jaw dropping for its immensity.
"Do you get classified as a bigot and sent on equality training if you refuse to employ/work with/accept the interpreting services of/use the same washbasin as a Dalit (aka Untouchable) because you are of a higher caste? Not a flippant question -- caste discrimination, as catalogued above, is rife in this country. Whether it's being addressed by the euqal opps industry is another matter.
I agree with the others: flimsy article."
Britian in probably the least racist country in the world. We;ve absorbed vast numbers of immigrants from every corner of the world in out tiny, crowded island with very little real trouble. Yet whites are pretty routinely dismissed as "racist" if they express any concern whatsoever over immigrationlevels. From what I've heard, read and observed, the most racist, homophobic and mysogynist people in Britain are to be found in our ethnic minority "communities". My (white) best mate has been married to a British Sikh girl for over ten years. His father-in-law only recently consented to meet him.
"hahahaha - come on Hugh is that really the best you can do? Or are you wanting to inspire other people to write articles about what their mate said down the pub. Maybe you stayed up late last night or forgot about the deadline....quick...panic...I've only 30 mins to submit my copy......
There is the making of an interesting article in there but this is a bad show.
ps. I've attended a few equality training sessions....two were tick in the box exercises to keep the organisation out of jail, with a bored presenter reading through 20 slides each with 10 bullet points. The focus was on preventing bigoted behaviour.
The third session was much more valuable because it focused on the value and benefits of embracing diversity. People got far more involved in this session, views were exchanged and prejudices aired and overall it demonstrated why equality can be such a positve thing for a company and it's employees.
pps I ran the third session"
"Hugh Muir
Care to ask your friend how many equalities trainers are employed by the various Ulster Unionist parties or The Loyal Orange Order and if the government is so keen on an end to discrimination, how come there are still Orange day parades in both Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The Catholic populations of both countries have been the subject of overt discrimination for years. Today in Scotland it's not so obvious but still there. They are no longer allowed to ask your religion on application forms for jobs but they insist on knowing what school you went to and sure enough, the job usually goes to the guy who went to a protestant school.
And before anyone makes the comment, I'd like the same rules applied to Sinn Fein and the republican groups."
Bloody equalities trainers should go back where they came from! (the local council offices, presumably)
"I went to a diversity training event on sexual orientation some time ago. One of the more senior people in the office (of 20 people or so) was heard to grumble that it was pointless because ""everyone in this office is straight"". There was absolutely no way that he could have known that and as it happens he was wrong. But no-one fitted his stereotype.
The sheer ignorance of many people about other people is huge. Sadly training events are frequently a crap way to tackle this but they do at least suggest that Someone Above doesn't tolerate prejudice. And they do make people think occasionally."
"I think they are more xenophobic Brits than they are racist Brits.

The open door immigration in the EU is causing a lot of the strife."
"A friend of mine in the Post Office in Sydney has been told to give away all the Christmas decorations the office has been using for years. These will no longer be used because - "" some people may find them offensive"".
How equal is this situation. Bring back common sense."
What a ridiculous article. Can you please bury this in the depths of your website rather than promote it near the top news stories. I expect better stuff from The Guardian than this piffle.
I came to this article on the promise of finding out what bigots say behind closed doors. I've been robbed!
should read "The 13 have been brainwashed, the two castigated by the 13 with a reality deficit."
we are all equally rubbish. All of us.
Quoted for agreement. I am disappointed.
"There's a lot of rage here. I guess the comment about refugees from Uncle Rupert's paywall may be correct.
A major problem is the massive amount of moral complacency that so many seem to have, combined with a stonking lack of imagination concerning what it is like to be on the receiving end of bigotry.
Most of the commenters above assert that they are sick to death about talk of bigotry and injustice. Well, that doesn't mean it isn't true, it's just that many people lash out at anything that makes them feel uncomfortable."
Here's a great example of equality training...
"When launching a cohesion project I was invited to dinner by a community group who had learned of my budget. Following a pleasant meal I was addressed by members expounding their case for funding and support on anti-racist grounds.
The conversation was halted when I asked them why amongst the several other groups of the same organisation within the city they were the only overtly racist one. They were stunned until I pointed out that they were all not only of Asian origin but of one specific religion and that you do not normally get that in the Rotary.
This is a complex and constantly changing subject which Mr Muir devalues with this article. Quite a few of us ""white"" inhabitants of this country have experienced the institutional bigotry of being Celts or Roma or a host of other ""minorities"". Todays underprivileged minorities include working class, male, white youth on council estates and I see no Chav grants being made. Is it any wonder bigotry and racism still exists when Hugh glibly simplifies for the sake, I hope, of irony."
Did Hugh Muir pick up a cheque for writing these 5 brief paragraphs about nothing? Who are these bigots? What did they say? Are they evil people or do they just resent being forced to go on a pointless training course? I look forward to finding out when the article is finished.
"Hm. Interesting title.
Worth a few variations.
What bigots say in print.
What bigots say about bigots.
What bigots say to make money.
What bigots say to be controversial.
What bigots say to justify their bigotry.
What bigots say to maintain their privilege.
What bigots say about people they just don't like."
I had that Gordon Brown in the back of my limousine once.
"I have in mind the training day from The Office.
So the two 'bigots' in every room are bereft of rational thought, or any experience that may be informing their opinions? They are simply dismissed as ""simmering volcanoes"" (note the connotation: a mute, potentially violent object) who must be moulded to Jerome's way of thinking. The champion of diversity corrals people into a room to persuade them all to think alike, and to experience the weight of collective opprobrium if they refuse?"
"Not sure who one hates more, bigots or Catholics.
Kind regards.
The Queen."
"Am I palpably good?
Could you ask your mate Jerome for me please.
Ta."
Your friend is wrong, he does have a pointless job. If someone is a bigot, locking them in a room, and giving them a lecturer full of well. Well we don't know, cus you haven't told us, but I'm guessing it won't be a fun way to spend an afternoon. Seems like a very good way of turning all 15 them into bigots. Also your friend really shouldn't be too impressed that 13 of them agree with him from the off. They are all probably terrified that they will be sacked if they don't say the right thing.
"suzannesydney 29 September 2010 12:26AM A friend of mine in the Post Office in Sydney has been told to give away all the Christmas decorations the office has been using for years. These will no longer be used because - "" some people may find them offensive"". How equal is this situation. Bring back common sense.
Prove it. Time and time again we've heard this sort of nonsense, no-one backs it up."
"Here's a summary from one of Mr Mack's courses. NGOs and other 'non-profits' have a language all their own (I edited UN and NGO project reports for a very brief period, before the urge to tear my face off became too strong) and this is a pretty representative example of the mind-bendingly vague, meaningless crap they get paid handsomely to spew out.
Summary
BBC Television was concerned with improving the self-motivation of staff members from minority backgrounds to drive job performance in the BBC's major work streams. To achieve this, the organization offered career incentives to attendees, and looked to gain a culture of renewed drive from attendees post initiative. The Initiative's impacts included increased promotion of participants from BME minority backgrounds into the major work streams, and an increase in the perception of BBC as an employer of choice."
"I once went on an Equal Ops course and was told I was a 'racist' by the trainer because I asked for a black coffee during the break time.
unfortunately she picked the wrong person to hold up as an example of a typical bigot as I wasn't having it, and responded by stating that as a vegan I considered her a 'speciesist' for making the assumption that I would put cow's milk in my coffee. I then warmed to my theme by asking her if she's been at Lewisham in 1977 risking arrest and injury by confronting the National Front when they tried to march in the area as I didn't recall seeing her there (""er, no I wasn't actually...""), and that I wasn't therefore prepared to take such an accusation from somebody whose anti-racist activism extended no further than the boundaries of a nice safe classroom. I then asked how exactly politically correct crap like this was remotely helpful to Bengali families in Tower Hamlets who were having petrol poured through their letter boxes and the BNP were gaining seats in East London (it was mid 1990s).
I don't think I actually let up for about half an hour, and from what colleagues who later went on the same course told me, the whole confrontation became a bit of a legend.
Lazy thinking, complacency and stereotyping by the chattering classes of those they make ignorant assumptions about can be just as insidious and damaging as true bigotry."
Well you don't have to go to the privacy of the training room to know what bigots are saying - just look at CiF and you'll find plenty of examples, if you can get there before the moderators arrive.
"If whomever is saying that 10% of England's immigrants are Eastern European, then easily 20-40% are Mideast or African Muslim and the remainder Indian or Pakistani.
Either way, it's what the past 20 years of our ""immigration policy"" created and integration, or lack thereof, is visible daily."
"""Informing ignorance""... I think you'll find the point of prejudice is that experiences ""colour"" (pardon the pun) one's opinions, not illuminate them. Clearly they are bereft of ""rational thought"", as the rational conclusion of ""I've had bad experiences with minorities"" is ""I've also had bad experiences with lots of other people, it's not the fact that they are minorities to blame.""
The conclusion ""Therefore all minorities must be like the limited number of people I've experienced"" isn't rational, it's ignorant. It's ignorant of statistical analysis, it's ignorant of bias, it's ignorant of all the principles needed for ""rational thought""; thus making it bereft of them.

Also note the connotation: As intransigent as rock and poorly equipped to be moved by reasoned argument. And why shouldn't they be ""simply dismissed""? Do you think they have fascinating new insights and reasonings that turn the well established falsehoods of prejudice and intolerance on their heads and make it suddenly ""right""? If so they should get on their soap-boxes, storm the beer-halls, and go about a political career that will enable them to enact any solutions, temporary or final, to this clear and undeniable ""problem"" they have so meticulously quantified and resolved.
Racism is wrong, outside hate-filled red-tops whose readership only require the reading age of a pre-teen to consume that tripe, pretty much every aspect or racism has been de-constructed, analysed, and rebuked whole-scale. You might want to argue with a volcano about this fact; but there is no real point in covering stale ground with people too stubborn or stupid to open their minds.

Because that's so much worse than minorities experiencing the collective opprobrium of racist thugs for failing to *look* alike? Fortunately the majority of people in this country don't think like that, and have the good sense to shout down and ridicule the relics who do."
"Equalities trainers are paid large sums by employers to try to ensure that the actions of their employees don't land them in tribunals and courts of law, answering charges of discrimination, negligence, unfair dismissal etc.
And to judge by some of the ignorant comments posted here, their money is very wisely spent."
Hugh, beginning, middle, end. Is this a three part article? Did you just get tired?
"Wow. It's a while since I've seen such bigotry in the Guardian columns as this. And people are required by their employers it listen to it? It's called training?
Frightening."
Hugh, I owe you an apology. I've just clicked on your brief bio. Editor it says. Sir, I salute you. This is some of the boldest editing I've ever come across. A very bold statement. Up the editors! .
"spambodyguard
28 September 2010 11:05PM
eastern Europeans sit top of the list. But there's an upside, and it is the other 13, because there was a time when in that room, the bigotry of the two would be infectious.
I'm out of work; 10% of this city is now East European (BBC figures).
I don't like being unemployed, but if I mention them, I'm a bigot.
Are you blaming your unemployment on those Eastern Europeans? Consider the fact that you may not be as employable as you think, Jacko."
"Well, Ace42, how else is one to form opinions except through experience, rather than received wisdom? I'd like to believe that racism has dimininshed, rationally I should think that it has, but when I walk around as a white male with my Indian wife I more often than not find that it does exist - often subtle, perhaps, but usually palpable. So this experience ""colours"" my opinion. I don't as a result believe that all Indian and white people are racist, but I know from experience that too many are. Therefore I assume the worst until I discover the better.
Your so-called bigots, on the whole, are the same. They may be gnashing lunatics, or they may have had negative experiences. How else are they to form a view of their surroundings, in a classroom with Jerome?
My argument is that you can only firmly change people's opinions by understanding how they've arrived at them, rather than assigning cosy labels to them and throwing pretty, coherent invective at them. ""Hate-filled red-tops whose readership only require the reading age of a pre-teen"" is no different in tone from the language you condemn, and yet if these people threw similar dogma at you, youu would brand them bigoted. Do you know many red-top readers, or have many conversations with them? Or wouldn't you consider them worthwhile because of what you assume they believe, and what you assume about their intelligence?"
"Nice intro, but where's the actual article?
For Christ's sake, Guardian, pull your socks up."
Polite persuasion has reached it's limits ...it is now time to introduce criminal penalties on those who refuse to live in this millenium
"I too wondered where the body of the article had gone, although I was more worried by Hugh's comment about the two attendees who were 'palpably' not good.
The very idea of having to palpate work colleagues outside a non-threatening mutual safer-sex scenario leaves me quite queasy..."
Shouldn't those who preach tolerance, diversity and equality also be accepting of bigotry? Isn't the prejudice against bigotry itself a form of bigotry?
"Deductive, rather than inductive reasoning. Logical analysis of facts, statistics, etc. Removal of confounding variables; refinement of hypotheses via Socratic Method.
In short the tools used by educated people to continually diminish and eliminate biases, errors, and faulty logic for millennia.
I find these tend to be much more valuable tools than confusing circumstantial evidence with ""proof"".

There is a distinction between prejudice (prejudging someone), and treating people cautiously until you discover what they are like. I keep my front-door locked, it doesn't mean that I am ""prejudiced"" against the world, that I consider everyone else in it to be a thief who is not trustworthy, for example. The level of precautionary wariness you employ around you is quite frankly nobody's business but your own; however that is quite different to being pre-emptively rude and intolerant to casual acquaintances and strangers.


""So-called""? What would you call them? ""Mr and Mrs X?"" People who refuse to tolerate people of different races are quite literally bigots, and it doesn't matter if a black man molested their eight year old daughter or an eastern-european put them out of a job; it's still ignorant, bigoted, and wrong; both morally and rationally.

I cited several tools above. If they are incapable of using them properly themselves, then they should do what mankind has since before it walked upright; piping down and following the herd - opprobrium doing its job properly for a change - or else listening experts in the field such as ""equalities experts"".

Rubbish, someone might think that the French are going to invade us next week because of some rubbish his mate told him down the pub; I don't need to know that to ridicule away his opinion. This is where ""facts"" and ""rational thought"" come in, you see.

For 'cosy' read: 'accurate'.

I am glad you find my invective to be both coherent and pretty. I find that coherence helps an argument a lot; this is why I tend to win them. The prettiness is just a nicety to my readership.

Different in tone? No. But what better way to retort a position whose entire basis is on implication and tone than to adopt that tone, garnish it with facts, and throw it right back in their face?
I think you'll find it is different in *quality* though. You see, the red-tops do have a required reading age of seven (or rather, did in the late nineties when I read a linguistic analysis of their prose), making them accessible to the most ignorant and neurologically incapable demographics in society; and they are indubitably hate-filled. Pick a red-top and I can point out hysterical scaremongering, prejudice, or otherwise reactionary reporting on any page. Maybe not page 3 of the Sun, the pictures take up most of the space. I am sure you aren't going to attempt to defend the indefensible on this one.

And provide them with inscrutable evidence as to why I am correct and they are not. That is the difference between being ""right"" in an argument and being ""wrong"". The tone may be the same, but one side is in agreement with the facts, the other is not.

I know plenty, and I take great pleasure in mentally noting that they're reading vacuous drivel that has a closer relationship to fiction than to fact. However, you may note that I didn't mention their readership, other than implying they had to have a minimum reading age of 12."
Reading some of the comments should assuage your disappointment then because anything like this article brings vocal bigots out in droves.
"Perhaps there's a hard core of workers who just cant stand the prospect of wasting half a day in the hands of some ass clown (sorry ""management consultant"") stating the bleeding obvious in front of power point display.
Somewhere in the 1980s it became compulsory for public and private organisations to shovel truckloads of money into the hands of these hucksters, who don the robes of whatever brand name is fashionable at the time - in the 80s it might have been called Access and Equity, in the 90s it a matter of Team Building, and now in this decade it finds the ludicrous brand name of ""Leadership training"".
I suspect this material is dreamt up by the same people who devise new angles for toothbrush commercials.
The bottom line here is that if your family and school teachers havent done a half decent job in socialising you by the age of 10, its game over."
"Well obviously only bigots would object to Islamic colonisation, to East Europeans taking the jobs that low skilled native Britons would otherwise do and to having hard-core dumped on fields for traveller encampments

http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news/2010/07/23/meriden-shaken-by-arrival-of-new-gypsy-group-66331-26915092/
Clearly this local group are bigots of the most reprehensible kind and in sore need of diversity training to enable them to appreciate the enriching vibrance to which they so unreasonably object
I'm struggling to recall when the British people gave their consent for these far-reaching changes in the population of the country"
"_AT_Fungolo33

You seem to be confusing ""tolerance"" and ""acceptance"" - an error pointed out clearly in an episode of South Park. Tolerance means you ""put up"" with something; acceptance means you believe in it.
Tolerating bigotry means you allow people to be bigots; it doesn't mean you have to like it, nor that they should be celebrated for their ignorance. It also doesn't mean that they should have a greater freedom to be rude, offensive, and downright difficult than any other member of society. Why should a racist be allowed to get away with offending coworkers and customers when someone who hysterically shouted at ""fatties"" or ""baldies"" would be considered the be a psychotic ass?

Clearly no; ""prejudice"" means to be prejudged. Your own statement presupposes that the bigots are bigoted. That's not ""prejudice"", that's just ""judice."""
Any election you voted at I'd imagine
"Some of the 13 will be telling Mack what he wants to hear in order to get it over with and/or afraid of losing their jobs.
Public money should not be spent on Inquisitions - Elizabeth I wisely observed that she ""would not make a window into men's souls"" and Mack should be down at the Job Centre looking for something which doesn't rip off hard pressed tax-payers, few of whom would voluntarily engage his services"
Complete and utter rubbish
Inscrutable evidence?
....I think we've found ourselves a pseud.
"""Equality Training"" - I fear this means training the middle and lower classes how to get along in the face of illegal and legal newcomers taking their jobs and social housing.
Perhaps a better form of Equality Training would be to educate the rich as to the effect of their giant incomes on the morality, criminality, antisociality, and so forth, of the less elevated."
"_AT_ThomasFielding

No, many reasonable people would object to that. But only bigots would equate the current immigration trends in the UK with the alarmist and grossly misrepresentative term ""Islamic colonisation"".

Indeed, many non-bigots would object to this.
Of course the only reason why the job would go to Eastern Europeans rather than low-skilled native Britons is because most low-skilled native Britons are exceptionally lazy or stupid, and as such terrible employees.
So what actually happens is ""Many hard-working people take the jobs that stupid people are too lazy to do properly"" - and only a bigot would object to this on the grounds of race.

Indeed, many non-bigots would object to this. However, only a bigot would object to ""meet[ing] the travelling community’s immediate health and safety needs"".
I am guessing from your tone of self-righteous indignation that you are, in fact, one of those bigots?"
"_AT_matmo

Yes, evidence which is impenetrable; IE monolithic and undeniable. It's hyperbole. It's one of the rhetorical tools that makes my ""coherent"" statements so ""pretty"".

""Hyuck, we've got ourselves a reader here!"""
Once did some work at a training centre for Immigration Officials in Ushiku, Japan. Asked one guy "So why did you join the immigration service?" "To kick foreigners out of Japan" came the deadpan reply.
Wheres the rest of the article?
"The last lot of equalities training I went on was a joke, I ended up arguing with the guy presenting. Not because I'm a bigot, far from it, but because:
* It was patronising- here's a list of people from different ethnic backgrounds, can you guess their jobs? OH WOWS, THE INDIAN GUY ISN'T A DOCTOR, THE BLACK GUY ISN'T A MUSICIAN, who'dve thunk it.
* It was pointless - those who are bigoted aren't going to suddenly change their minds ""wow, I've been wrong all along with my prejudices, what a terrible error I've made"" - the people who needed it most are going to be the least receptive to it.
* The guy was a tool and not that bright. ""you should respect people's views, especially religious ones"" - ""why, what if they're ridiculous or unpleasant? What about when they conflict with treating people equally, e.g. religious homophobia?"" - ""errrr.""
My colleague went on the same course recently, the guy started going on about the ""death camps in Germany"" - she pointed out they were mainly in Poland and also ended up arguing with the guy, eventually leaving a reading list on hte feedback form for the guy to clue himself up a bit."
"I'm in two minds about this. Bigot might be a strong word but it's clear, in the office I work in, that there are a few people with bad attitudes to race, gender & sexual orientation. They are people who have learnt to control themselves in the majority of situations but let the odd comment slip - unlike the article I'll give some examples: using words like 'Wogga-wogga land' or saying things like 'we've got bets on who the next girl is to get pregnant', calling someone a 'Jew because you're so tight'. It's not exactly PC gorn mad stuff.
The problem with saying 'it doesn't matter what someone thinks, it's the actions that count' is that it becomes very difficult to be fair minded when you have a strong belief. If your genuine belief, for example, is that girls are a problem because they go off pregnant it's going to be very hard for you to then treat your young females employees equally to your other employees, thinking that they are likely to prove costly and difficult (this moan comes up relatively frequently at work, despite the fact that in our female dominated office over the last 2.5 years just two women have had children, one of whom returned to work full time and was only out the office for a few months).
Trouble is that I can't see any of this being fixed by an afternoon training session, especially if the trainer takes a 'holier than thou' kind of attitude, therefore alienating the very people they most need to help. I would think it more important to draw out the reasons for prejudice and confront them logically and rationally, explaining why x, y or z isn't acceptable rather than labelling people bigots and leaving them with a list of things they mustn't do."
Has it never occurred to Jerome that those 13 are just displaying the behaviours they know will result in approval from the trainer and an early exit from the utterly pointless tick-box course?
Blimey, issues aside, can I write for the Guardian? A couple of hundred words that don'tr really say very much. Gizza job. I could do that.
Er, remind me what is wrong about being a bigot? One man's bigotry is another's common sense.
Isn't calling the goverment Con-Dem a signal of bigotry?
Also, on the same course the girl I was sitting next to, who was black, was trying to goad me into saying "drug dealer" and "terrorist" etc. for the same exercise, because it would be funny to wind up the tutors and watch them go ape shit :) I agreed, but didn't put it down as a good career move.
"I don't understand the point of publishing this article.
It's no more than a few lines long and is so superficial that it says absolutely nothing."
"This is the second half-arsed article I've read in the Guardian in the last couple of days (the other one was about Dinner for Schmucks). Is it something to do with cutbacks?
I've got a sneaky suspicion that these 'half-articles' on divisive issues are just to get more people commenting to show advertisers the numbers of people visiting the site and so increase their revenue."
Ah, this stuff pays my mortgage! Jerome and his team (or more accurately their employers) should be aware of the possibility of litigation, litigation and more litigation. Not only are they violatiing the Employment Relations Act 1999, but more importantly, section 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights and thus, the UK Human Rights Act. If any of the assorted Alf Garnets need legal representation, I'm sure they will not lack excellent representation that will secure them a handsome profit, not withstanding their private opinions.
"Thirteen will make the effort. The other two will be bigots and proud of it.
When you say ""make the effort"" this suggests that actually, they are all thinking the same thing, but some make an effort to cover up their thoughts. Or what else could ""make the effort"" mean? If they honestly agreed with you they wouldn't have to make any effort at all."
"My guess is that this is an underestimate of the bigotry to be found in the UK.
On the other hand, CIF seems to sometimes be a sort of highly commerical version of speakers' corner where people representing special interests make their pitches.
Consider an alternate article
"" I have found that bigotry is rarely found, and is rapidly disappearng so within a year or so there will be no further need of equlities trainers"""
No he doesn't - there's no information here at all. This isn't an article, it's a wind-up. Perhaps the real article is still being written and will appear later? Let's hope so.
"picador:
I actually had a family of gypsies move in next door many years ago. They validated every piece of prejudice I've ever heard about gypsies. Possibly it was coincidence.
The only overtly religious people I've ever worked with were a Jehovah's Witness and a Muslim. The only one who talked about their religion was the Jehovah's Witness. When he did I was very critical of his superstition and I used to tie him in knots. I would have done the same with the Muslim if he had spoken about his beliefs, but luckily he never did. If he had then I suppose that I would have ended up on diversity training or perhaps sacked.
It was quite OK answer the Jehovah's Witnesses crap, though. He stopped trying to proselytise after a while.
Everybody to their own shit as long as they don't try to lay it on me."
Where is the rest of the article?
"I bet this so-called article didn't make it to print.
I thought generalisations without specific, empirical evidence were the main weapon of the bigots..."
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"""Depending on what newspapers are saying, all sorts of things make them angry. Right now travellers, gay people and eastern Europeans sit top of the list.""
Well, I don't have much of a problem with Gay People, but let me look at one of these categories.
For Travellers at least, whilst they are undoubtedly disadvantaged and discriminated against, there do appear to be grounds for pointing out that some members of their community do appear to go out of their way to justify such discrimination and, sadly, accusations of bigotry against those complaining against such conduct only add fuel onto the fire.
In my own company, Network Rail, Travellers have, several times, been caught red handed with cut up lengths of rail on their vehicles, but because we could not prove that it was the particular rail missing from an adjacent siding, the police have let them go.
The same for copper cable from signal power supplies.
The facts that there has been serious disruption to rail services caused by the theft of cable a couple of miles away and that there is insulation matching that from the missing cable on a piece of waste ground does not mean that the freshly stripped copper wire in a Traveller's van parked on the same piece of waste ground, again matching the specification of the missing cable, is necessarily the same cable.
No matter what one may think of the Daily Mail & Express and their readers, their news stories are usually based on at least a modicum of truth and are not always twisted."
What do they say behind closed doors, protected by anonymity? In my experience, a common characteristic of the bigot is his indignant refusal to believe in bigotry. Read these comments--you'll find more than 2/15.
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Thought we were now in the changed world of the 21 st century not the 60s and nobody cares any more . These courses are an insult to those they are trying to protect and it implies in an odd way they are inferior . What in the 21 st century in London ??
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"Am I the only one that would stand up to bigotry, I am not racist, ageist or any of the other ist.
It makes my skin crawl and my heart sink when people of other religions and colour are blamed for all Britain's ills. I do stand up for them, and I love to see these nasty peoples faces when they cannot fight back against my logical arguments for these wonderful people being present in our country and throughout the globe.
I would just like to point out that we are not pure bloods any of us, we are a crossbreed race, we all have a little negro blood, french, Saxon viking in us. So if we insult these people we are insulting ourselves and our forebears.
People are people I am lucky enough to live in a multicultural area, and I wouldn't change it for the world."
"Wonder what this guy would think of people who post on here highly derogatory comments about:
ANYONE who has been to a public school,
ANYONE who went t Oxbridge,
ANYONE who is better off than they are,
ANONE who disagrees with their point of view."
"Be careful, HumanBoeing, it's quite OK to say ""Christ on a bloody donkey"" but don't try it on with Muhammed.
That would be religious hate speech and get your comment moderated away."
Looking forward to the rest of the article
"Lets review the situation and consider our own training day experiences, Of the 15 present, the head shakers and nodders will be female. The two outspoken and "" what am I doing here"" will be nearing retirement. The seven, it must be good management sent us. Of the remaining six, two will be out playing with the fairies and not even absorbing one iota of information. two will be middle management and seeking to construct a suitable argument to get half the budget of the training day. The last two, open minded imigrants seeking to learn about the British way of people training.
The end result, never mentioned, no tests carried out to validate the course just the instructors overall report on the ""Success"", Well, the instructors is hardly likely to admit that nothing was achieved, otherwise he/she is out of a job.
Of the 15, a minimum of three will sit thorough the whole course without saying anything other than their intro piece. and a final goodbye.
The useful part, at least four of the male participants will have met in a nearby pub after the first day and planned their strategy for the whole course, Evaluated the instructor, exactly what makes he/she work and then press the buttons, complete the course with a glowing report.
What was learnt from the course is totally irrelevant, the company is seen to have implemented the right course of action, the necessary ticks will be on the employees records and another specialist is ready to walk in with new ideas
It's called Empire Building.."
"<blockquotethylacosmilus
29 September 2010 7:31AM
Has it never occurred to Jerome that those 13 are just displaying the behaviours they know will result in approval from the trainer and an early exit from the utterly pointless tick-box course
>

As someone who was sent on many courses by my employers in various work/society related matters i can happily confirm what we all know - that in a this situation there will be a small number who will contribute to discussion while the rest sit back and do nothing all day."
So is challenging the concept of "diversity" and its association with seedy politically correct racial gender etc discrimination to make up the numbers to be defined as bigotry and hence unacceptable ? the climate of "thought crime" and intolerance of dissent (let alone any free speech) has become really worrying.
"Having read all the comments it is good to see most think this is a complete waste on money in this day and age .
This is the first thing that can be axed in every area of public sector
This was the activity of playground taunting in the 60 s and sure if a kid is bullied at school for being one of these diversities then they should and must be deallt with and if we must have this training do it at school for the under 5s
.Grown ups do not need to be treated like children ."
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"I keep hitting the refresh button expecting to see the rest of what seemed a fascinating article!
Could we have the rest of it please?"
"_AT_klough

Yep, but you could have had move in a middle class family from hell, some awful Jews, a single Afro-Carribean mum with 5 unruly kids, some vodka drinking Poles or Scots drunkards, but Picador's ostensible question to a notional equalities trainer was still making assumptions about a particular group."
"re comment
we ' voted ' for this nonsense
NO
Labour were a minority mandate government that all won due to urban areas of the North
Lets hope at the next election we do not sit and see the farce of the first 3 seats being won by Labour all in Sunderland .
Dave has 4 1/2 years to sort this so we never have a Labour Government again and all this nonsense . and all other time wasting PC nonsense is brushed under the carpet for good .
You should at least have a choice . In the days before the HR teams ( those who cant .......) took over , if my office ever had a visit by Royals I would always make a point of being out of the office as it is not my custom to bow and scrape .Nothing against a Royal family if they are Dutch style ."
"The managing director of Equality Assosciates would like to be out of a job eh!
He is the first businessman I've ever met who thought like that."
"Any election you voted at I'd imagine

Really? If you didn't llike the platforms the main parties stood on for immigration policy there was always the BNP whose platform would seem to suit you down to the ground.
I am assuming you didn't vote for them, if you did then you were just out voted in which case tough luck."
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They do when the act like children, which is generally the way with bigots.
"Such a terrible article that got people posting at 2am?
I will agree that it is a little light on the facts, but the crux is interesting. I think I would have paid more attention to the fact that bigotry is now socially unacceptable and that has more of an impact than anything else, as someone else said, it is not that the 13 are not bigoted but just that some are better at hiding it.
I would say that there are very very few people in the world who aren't bigoted about one group or another because we all make judgements, the 'popular' groups are the ones who have ribbons and parties but there are plenty who are left out.
As to someone talking about whether men can be victimes of sexism, well the argument is sexism requires dominant power so in that respect no they can't however bigotry is different and they can certainly be the victims of that."
"Diversity 'training' is a very curious phenomenon, that does have an ideological payload underneath it. Often it occludes issues of class -very real in this country- for issues of race. The latter merely becomes about personal conscience and scruples while the former -more complex and political in solution- gets pushed aside. In a stroke it de-politicises equality and atomises the audience saying the problem is in their heads. It's often institutions that have a heavy white presence in the upper management that do this, while the black members of staff have to do with portering, catering, cleaning jobs and so on. The effect is perverse.
Diversity training may have good intentions, but it's equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity that really matters. Like corporate social responsibility, I suspect it's something of a fig-leaf companies use to cover themselves while the fundamental coordinates in society remain unchanged.
I once attended a lecture on Islam for diversity training for a council, where members of the audience questioned the speaker on the treatment of women. When these issues intersected what was contained in the Qu'ran, the speaker just said he couldn't discuss it. In a sense, we were being invited to respect a faith that the 'other' practices and give special dispensation their more controversial beliefs. While 'some of those beliefs could be viewed as unpalatable (particularly on homosexuality), the multi-cultural society was meant to be flexible enough to accommodate them.
I think this shows that underneath multi-culturalism, there is still a colonial superiority complex that sees other people's cultural values as 'unchanging', as if they were some sort of aboriginal tribe. It assumes British society is now so modern, so complex, it can accommodate them while their 'inflexible' culture needs some sort of protection so it can go on being practiced 'authentically'. The reality is people's cultures, here and abroad are changing all the time, sometimes conflict and often challenge each other head on.
Being able to do that while separating out hatred, and avoiding name calling if anyone wants to debate the politics is really essential otherwise it will end up alienating the people you're trying to reach."
"I actually scrolled all the way down to find the rest of the article.
It's a bit thin Hugh....

anyway, some of my best friends are racist."
DrabWilly and Frenchletter are spot on. There is not much in the article, as there are no real examples of what really went on in the room. What about the other 13? Was there any positive response to the training? Sure, the other two did not have their way all day! It is a thankless task working on equalities, as people see you as a trouble shooting political correct, neo-socialist! But the reality is that we are only trying to ensure that employers, such as the Police, NHS, et al get the best of a diverse world in terms of skills, abilities and life experiences, to help enrich the workplace in particular, and in turn, society in general. The country benefits when we treat each other fairly without pride and prejudice. Until then, we will continue to look for what is different about each of us, and use these against each other. Perhaps all bigots out there can stop for a moment and think about this, perhaps they won't. There will always be bigots. It's the harsh world we live in and no amount of training will change their attitudes
I don't think equalities training is going to reduce the biogoted ideas much, if at all, but it does point out that you're failing in your job if you treat people in a bigoted way. The change in behaviour often precedes the change in thinking. For example, most people know don't think that gender is a good reason to pay people different amounts but when the legislation was brought in, many did.
I was part of a team working on equalities related issues.... we didn't do the front-line work, but we had to understand a bit about it. For this reason we got a 1 hour training on different equalities issues every two weeks at work. Some were rather pointless (or so it seemed to me) and some were very entertaining/informative/memorable. Personally, I now remember these constant trainings and information very positively.
"""The bigots will sit there for a while like simmering volcanoes,"" he says. ""'I don't know why I am here,"" they complain.
---
I don't know, I'd like to agree with you, but I think people say that at most meetings, resenting being taken away from their work and doing something productive. Especially if there's a PowerPoint presentation. And when you consider the message of most meetings could be taken care of using fewer characters than a ""Tweet"". Does this make Dilbert a bigot?"
I went on human rights and equalities training with some NHS and council employees. We were asked to choose our favourite figure in the history of human rights. My neighbour, a young male nurse, chose Rosa Parks "Because, like, she stood up for equality you know. I don't see why you have to stand up for disabled people and pregnant women on the bus." He wasn't joking - didn't believe in disabled parking spaces either.
"Just a little anecdote. I was in charge of an engineering project team desperately trying to finish the project on time in order to avoid contract penalties. The (female) clerk helping us to assemble the final documents was so slow and incompetent that I lost my patience with her and called her a lazy, useless idiot and we would do it quicker without her, so kindly clear off. I did not shout and I did not swear. Up to about 1990 you could do that; unfortunately this was 2000.
Floods of tears, complaint to union rep, complaint to HR, complaint to senior management, yours truly sent before the beaks and promptly packed off on a 'diversity training course'. As it happens there were exactly 15 participants on the course of which only myself and one other person were from private industry, the rest from the public sector. Now the interesting thing is that we two were labelled 'the bigots' by the 'facilitators' right from the outset. We might as well have worn special badges to confirm it.
I asked the question of one facilitator: what is the proper way to tell off a lazy, careless, generally useless female who is not pulling her weight? I was told that the question was 'inappropriate'. Perhaps the author is correct, there normally are two 'bigots' out of 15 on a typical course but they might be the two who need to get work done on time, the other 13 have a more relaxed environment.."
"""Right now travellers, gay people and eastern Europeans sit top of the list.""
I do not agree, I`d say that the less ""obviously"" disabled are currently top of the list and it is being driven by politicians of all flavours. If you have an arm or legs missing then the public in general is quite sympathetic but mental health problems leading to obesity and we have a conspiracy of bigots of all colours and creeds ready to blast them.
My experiences at university also taught me that bigotry is also pervasive, and not confined to men and White British ethnicity. Unfortunately the equality lobby does not seem to care about reality - instead it is more concerned with helping the privileged subset in an ""established underprivileged group"".
To give an example Harriet Harmon is a prominent equality champion, who rides on her ""underprivileged"" status as a woman - yet as a former barrister, and daughter of a Harley Street physician she is anything but underprivileged. Worse she actually implemented a policy of winter fuel payments to women at 60 and men at 65 - a case that was taken to Europe and won as it was clearly discriminatory.
I also note that when talking about equality in parliament in particular much is made of the lack of women, and the high percentage of white men - yet all is not as it seems because while those statistics are true there are other under and over representations that while also true are less comfortable for the equality lobby.
Its all very well complaining about white men for example - but if we look at those who ""look white"" we would find a very large percentage actually identify as some other ethnicity eg Jewish.
More ""visible"" or obvious minority groups often complaining about a lack of minorities will view Irish, German, French, Greek and Poles etc as being ""White British"" particularly if their English is good. It is actually possible for someone to see a place as being ""non-diverse"" with hardly any White British there. In the case I remember the number of Malay, Greek, Pakistani employees was half that of White-British...not really a bastion of racial discrimination in my opinion."
"Regarding Eastern Europeans. Many of course - the Poles for example - have a perfect right under EU legislation to work and live here. This right does not extend to the Roma people. Or at least only partially extends. In the case of Romanians they have a time limit of 3 months to find work, after this time has elapsed they must return to their homeland or face removal.
Sarkozy's explusion of the Roma is perfectly legal. They have exceeded their time limit and their continued presence in France is illegal
France is not, as I understand it, a registered charity, and these people are not refugees; nor is any other country for that matter. It is not possible to - legally - simply walk into some other country and claim residence and all that goes with it.
In the Ukraine, from where I have recently returned, it is possible for an EU national to stay for up to 3 months at a time. The Ukraine, however, will not take EU nationals from either Romania or Bulgaria.
These are the facts of immigration law, but undoubtedly they will be termed racist.
Now I am simply stating the facts of immigration law."
"Just because I don't say you're an idiot, doesn't mean I don't think you're an idiot. And until you stop behaving like an idiot, I'm not likely to change my mind.
I know it's not fair, women can't be girly or bitchy, but men can get away with it. Women however can be sexist or chauvinist, but men aren't allowed. Any religion no matter how crazy or weird tends to get respect, but if you're an atheist you had better keep your mouth shut. Life's not fair - deal with it."
Don't these sessions usually start with an agreement that anything said is confidential and will not go further than the training room? Not sure the people in session imagined what they said however tangential it's mentioned would end up in a national paper, this doesn't seem very professional on either side.
I remember once when working as a petrol-pump attendant near Hounslow in the early Seventies and one of my co-workers was what you might call a racist bigot. I didn't like that, but kept my views to myself because you can't change people simply by arguing with them. I think you'd have to undo a whole life to unravel the roots of bigotry. Not long after that I was wrongfully accused of fiddling the tills and was sacked. Everybody, including the site-manager, kinew I was not to blame, but the area manager looked at the figures and said I'd have to go and there was nothing anyone could do. A decision taken on high, as it were. The 'bigot' was the only worker there who stood up for me and threatened to go on strike. Since all of the others were too attached to their jobs and wage-packets at the end of the week, he was fighting a losing battle, but I will always remember his stand. I think this kind of political-correctness and identity-politics puts the cart before the horse. Class-solidarity is ultimately much more important.
"Well you shouldn't call someone a useless idiot whether they are male or female, employment law tells you that. You have to ask why they aren't doing the work, see if they need re-training, warn them then let them go. That she was a woman is irrelevent, or should be any way.
Also, as a woman in a male dominated industry, it is often unnoticed by the men how sexist they are on a daily basis, if I was then, on top of all that, called lazy etc etc it would be hard to not link it to their general attitude toward me because I have boobs. Though I of course am not the woman in your anecdote so don't know what she experienced."
"I read something recently about a high-ranking policeman admitting there was still 'stealth racism' in his force - that is, officers who didn't act or speak in a racist way, but still had 'racist thoughts'...
I thought about that much as I thought about this piece - that, unless we want to introduce some Orwellian notion of thought-crime, it doesn't really matter what the two bigots say or believe behind closed doors. The other thirteen will slap them down if they do or say anything racist in public - and that, surely, is what matters.
Anyone who says they don't occasionally make assumptions about other people, based on fear and ignornace, is a fibber. (listen to all the venom poured out on 'the middle classses' and 'Daily Mail readers' on these forums) It's what we do with those assumptions that matters."
utter bollocks
"A world where an ""equalities trainer"" is considered a valuable and effective profession is worse than a world with inequalities.
Just spookily Orwellian."
"I like disagreeing with 'experts' Hugh
and I often find myself wondering quite who it was that conferred the title of 'expert' on many 'experts' (and many seem just a little too eager to assume the mantle of 'expert')
oh well, bless em !
I am reminded of the lines by Alexander Pope

unfortunately many nowadays know only this snippet from his 'Essay on Man'
many 'experts' would be wise to read on

disagreement makes a discussion
passive acquiescence is what one expects from a captive audience"
"Some apt comments on here, good to see not everyone has been brainwashed by the thought police!
'Is it cos I is white' :-o"
"Bigots are generally very very thick and opinionated.
I pity them."
"In the real world you do not have all this nonsense
If you work for say a Sunday Times rich list there are no waters such as HR departments
You have a 1 hour face to face interview and they say start . If they like you they give you a big bonus or a nice company car
HOWEVER if you are at an all night drinks party with clients and make an unpleasant remark against a so called minority you will be called in the next morning and sacked on the spot so nobody does as thy know the rules of life .
This is the real world of business not back side covering / paper shuffling public sector"
"The number of ""why oh why oh why does the Guardian produce this"" comments circa Points of View in green ink with Barry Took in 1980, highlights how few people read the paper version of the Guardian. If they did they'd realise this is a regular column, a small little ditty that appears down the right hand side of page 6 or something. It's not meant to be the Gettysberg Address - it's just a short regular piece to be read or ignored at will.They're just anecdotes, it's not meant to be a Grey Paper.
If you want every newspaper article to be an identical length well documented thesis then the problem is yours and your ridiculous expectations. Get over yourselves."
seems to me the guardian has hugh muir and gary younge (the only black writers i ever see on the front page) write a piece about racism every for weeks wether they have anything to say about it or not
"The key question is ""why does diversity training exist"" ?
Anyone who believes that this is because organisations genuinely care about ""diversity"" is fooling themselves. Similar to its twin Health and Safety, this is all about ""the appearance of care"". Which translates as:
""we've done what we need to do to protect ourselves if we are sued"".
Whilst differences exist between human beings, those that are different whom we do not come into contact with will sadly be regarded as intrinsically alien and hence potentially dangerous. This is wrong, but exists as a part of our low-level survival instincts."
"fluter,

You're right about the possibility of having a middle class family from hell moving in next door, but I'd wager that the probability of a family with that profile behaving like the denizons of hell would be lower than with families of other profiles."
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"People are complicated Hugh, and I think that anyone who works in a 'Human Relations' field ought to be aware of that
I have known many people who I disagreed fundamentally with on particular subjects
but who I liked very much in other ways
I think you need to 'win people around' on some of these subjects
not try to bludgeon them into submission with the latest offering from some (usually self-appointed) 'expert' think tank
and view people 'in the round'
we ALL have flaws (except me of course)"
"Bigots being bullied into shutting the fuck up? Brilliant. Keep up the good work. I look forward to the day when they're the ones getting beaten up in pubs, with the police turning a blind eye.
They don't just spout rubbish; they make it easier to divide and conquer people whose practical interests -- as employees of company X, as wage slaves in general, as residents of a shithole of a pseudo-democracy -- are pretty much identical.
They're the epitome of useful idiots, rendering an invaluable service -- and too thick to realise it -- to the very forces that are making their lives progressively worse. along with those of their more evolved friends and neighbours, and all those whom they're keen to blame for their shitty lives."
"Bigoted;
(sic) 'Having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others'
With this definition from the Oxford English Dictionary - one could call those other '13' moulded politically correct non-bigots in the classroom.. well.. bigots.
Just because a number of native British people are not persuaded by the social engineering classes and their horrendous multi-cultural agenda - doesn't mean they should be singled out for extra curricula lessons on how to get on with those who barely speak English, don't integrate, want Sharia law, are scroungers, benefit seekers, immigrant welfare dependents - just to name a few of the disliked.
The equality shambles is a trend which will never really catch-on. When mass unemployment hits and people have nothing to lose - equality turns into dog eat dog which is more favourable to Darwinism and the survival of the fittest - not the mamby pamby wooly equality of all scenario."
"baggins45
29 September 2010 9:05AM

Yawn
The complete lack of legitimacy of mass immigration long pre-dates the BNP who are in fact a symptom of it

Ian Gilmour - Inside Right
Faith in British institutions and particularly the electoral dictatorship charade is now at a very low ebb


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/09/election-2010-stoke-immigration"
"There was a time when the equalities trainer would spend twice as long as he needed to explaining to the ""bigots"" where they were wrong, and then explaining to the rest of the room why they were wrong, and then explaining once again why there was only one possible way to think unless we wanted racial strife and a return either to the Brixton and Toxteth riots of 1981 or the Holocaust of 1940-45. Anyone being a wilful holdout is slowing down the whole thing and postponing coffee break- or even maybe, going home. No wonder people are hostile to them. Just let him get it over with!
_AT_Quercusrobur:
I thought the whole ""black coffee is a racist term"" thing had died out few years ago, unmourned even by the CRE (who lampooned that sort of thing in their Christmas card of a few years ago). The Communists would always accuse people of being certain sort of ""revisionists"" or ""anti-revolutionaries"", based on the words they used. The Maoists in particular were renowned for inviting ""free debate"" and constant critique and then cutting down everyone who mistakenly believed there was free debate by using their own words to paint them as enemies of the people. Nothing like that could ever happen now, of course."
Or to put it another way - people can't help what they think/believe. But they can help how they act.
"Seems Powell was spot on

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643826/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html
lordflyte
I thought about that much as I thought about this piece - that, unless we want to introduce some Orwellian notion of thought-crime.....
That is exactly what has developed

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/thought-police-muscle-up-in-britain/story-e6frg6zo-1225700363959"
Can;t honestly see where class solidarity comes into your arguement to be honest. Isn't that another form of bigotry?
"OMG, I hope I haven't somehow caught Infectious Bigotry from my colleagues!
If I were sent on one of these courses -- though I've always tried to avoid training days -- my aim would be to keep my head down, say as little as possible, agree with the trainer, give all the obvious right answers, and get away as soon as possible.
In other words, I'd be one of the 13 goody-goodies.
As far as the Inveterate Bigots are concerned, I wonder if the trainers have heard the old saying, ""You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."""
This ultra-drivel clearly belongs on the shortlist for the most classic Guardian article of all time.
"TOP TIP: To avoid being accused of racism, swap drinks orders with a colleague. No one will be any wiser, and you will pass the course with flying colours. Double marks if you can conceal the content of the cup and pretend you have chosen an alternative to your preferred beverage, so as not to offend others.
I'm not having it that anyone would accuse someone of racism for drinking black or white coffee. That has to be an urban myth."
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"By 'bigots' I assume we are talking about the Tories.
I imagine gypsies are pretty high on their hit-list, as usual."
"If people are racist then they should be marginalized, not coddled. If anyone fails to employ a person because of skin colour or gender alone, they should be fired. Plain and simple. Even if the person they refused t hire is white. Even if the job is for an equalities trainer.
The majority of comments are raising some legitimate questions about affirmative action. Ultimately, there is something decidedly unfair about affirmative action in, well, action.
And in principle. I think that a society that gives people jobs just because of their colour is missing the point. To declare that entire communities or genders need to be given percentages of jobs is propagating the problem - because for the very imposition of affirmative action to have been sanctioned by the government, something else must have happened first. The government must have looked at these communities (or genders) (arbitrarily?) and determined them to be unequal to others. e.g. x coloured people are poorer than the majority y coloured people because they live in dangerous communities, therefore we must try give x coloured people preferential treatment for job opps. Bollocks. (And, before you attack me for bigotry, I belong to the x coloured people category)...
Why can't the government just ensure that public services are delivered to the same high standard everywhere, thereby leveling the playing field across all the communities where diverse people live? That's all people want. EQUAL Health, Security, Education, Access to Food and other basic amenities.
Full stop.
Equalities trainers should spend less time in municipal buildings, and more time in cabinet."
Well in that case perhaps most people don't have your unhealthy preoccupation with foreigners., and many actually enjoy an increasingly racially and culturally diverse country for the pleasure and enjoyment it brings
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"_AT_bltp,
Confidentiality refers to identifiers, no content or context. No identifiers were provided, therefore no confidentiality was violated."
"Also Hugh
as many recent Guardian articles have relatively recently touched on
there is an awful of of uncertainty in Science
even more in 'Social Science'
so the idea that everyone can be somehow 'dragooned' into thinking in a particular way
and that this 'particular way' is the way to think
is highly contentious to say the least
(this sort of 'training' often seems to head in that direction in my experience)
[I often think, in such situations, that I would like to take a closer look at the 'attitudes and thoughts' of the 'expert' in question - I know I am being mischievous, but hey !]
I have never been very keen on the 'tick-box' way of assessing a personality
perhaps there is some room for it but
as I said earlier,
people are complicated
enough of the conformism !
set the people free !"
"_AT_nyanza
A very fair point, but I always think of Marshall McCluhan's overquoted and cryptic assertion that the medium is the message. The website decontextualises what would be clearly ordered and laid out in print, and promotes (often to 'Top Story' status) things which would remain tucked in the back - e.g. 'Eat Prey Love' filem review the other day, which was knocked down a peg when something more newsworthy comes along. I don't know but would imagine there are a lot of Guardian readers who haven't ever read (or bought!) a paper copy because the website is as good as it is (and free). And in a paper, you could more easily ignore a regular column whose purpose, judged from the poisition and title, you might chose not to read anyhow. But I bet you dollars to donuts readers of the paper who disagree grumble to themselves 'Who commissions non-articles like this?!' Spouting the same stuff on CiF is just the McCluhan equivalent - except, and this is my theory, readers hope (vainly, perhaps) enough statements of that sort piled up will trickle upstairs to the Editors who do commission stuff people do or don't like. It does little for the signal to noise ratio, I grant you, but what can you do?"
I meant 'not content or context'
"""The 13 have been empowered, the two disempowered""
And that's the sound of the word 'empower' losing all meaning.
I don't throw around the word Orwellian much, but I think in this case I'll make an exception."
"How many people does he have at these courses because they refuse to let their children marry outside their faith? Or because they are from a different culture, for example Muslims disowning (if they are lucky) anyone who wants to marry a non-Muslim or insisting that the person they marry gives up their own religion, Sikhs or Hindus objecting to their children marrying someone from a Caribbean background?
Can he give us a break down of non-white people on these courses?"
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"burnip

I'm not sure that I agree burnip
I'm afraid that I think that 'race' very much became an issue for a few years at the end of the 1970's
but that just a few years before that
it really wasn't an issue - for most people for most of the time
and the reason that it became such a 'hot topic' for a few years at the end of the 1970's
was primarily due to the 'speed and scale' of the demographic change that had happened since the beginning of the 1960's
particularly in 'working class districts'
there are many examples of people who sang the praises about Britain(in terms of being a welcoming 'non-racist' place during the 1960's - [Muhamed Ali (the boxer) Jimi Hendrix] look at how many British pop stars in the 1960's looked to famous 'Blues' performers as their idols - often thereby bringing them much deserved recognition at last
I think this seems to have been lost somewhere along the way
was everyone really so terrible ?
I don't think they were
if Britain really was so terrible at that time
why did so many non-white people choose to emigrate here during those years ?"
"Money, I doubt it was for a friendly welcome.
And those Bluesmen who young white guitarists emulated would probably been very bemused by Eric Clapton's opinion the ""Enoch Powell was right "" and opinion he still seems to hold despite basing his whole career on ripping off men like Robert Johnson."
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"baggins45

did you come during those years baggins45 ?
or are you just going on what you have heard ?
I have had many (non-white) older people who arrived here in the 1960's (when most came !) say (on the quiet) that they 'never had a problem'
and that indeed, they feel that Britain was more friendly
more relaxed, and less polarised then
than now
of course some people had a bad experience
but many did not"
"Mr NotReadTheThread
This is a short, regular weekly column that runs in the Guardian print version.
It is supposed to be that long"
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"I treat people how I like to be treated myself but the trouble is the race relations act colour should have no place in law all should be equal ,but it is now just another pc industry people are tribal allways have been allways will be.
Put people from same countries in another and they tend to stick together safety in numbers but all colours and races are bigots it is a question of perception formed by social and political experiences.The only way to change it is I don't know and I'm pretty sure no one else knows either.
The truth is we all live or die together and in the future governments are going to have to concentrate on their own people as the world seems to be on a turning point my best guess is we are screwed.May you live in interesting times lol."
"_AT_truthandjustice28

I can only offer my personal experiences, and of course anecdotal evidence is only ever half the picture.
A bit of background, both my parents were 70's immigrants, I'm a child of the 80's.
My parents come over for work as there was little in Hong Kong at the time, they worked hard and I've been v,lucky to be comfortable (meals on tables, etc. etc.).
They've experienced a lot of racism, some of the naive interest / novelty factor, some vicious which could easily be classed as 'hate'. It might be takeaway culture, our area is working class but not deprived poverty. This experience is shared by my parents generation in Coventry who also ran takeaways. My friends have experienced physical attacks, I've experienced verbal abuse, but now I live in Manchester which is v.multicultural.
There's a lot more Chinese people around -I remember being the only Chinese in my primary school and there were only a few (we all knew each other) in secondary school. I experience a lot less racism now than I used to and my parents takeaway is attacked a lot less. Maybe over the decades they have just become part of the community. Maybe the internet has made race a 'different' issue from what my parents experienced. Of course there's 2nd/3rd generation British Chinese now.
The government/council may be doing this all right/wrong but I'm happy the world I live in is better because the issue is there to be commented on, moaning about 'equlities training', is in some way a step forward from just plain swearing I've seen in the past. It is only a minor point but I am genuinely surprised at how naive some people can still be about race, especially in the age of globalisation, 24hr media and instant culture. There is genuinely a difference in people who are 'aware' of race issues, and people who actually have ethnic people in their social circle."
"And many of them were beaten on the streets and Notting Hill and other places and a few were murdered in racist attacks, and still are, another 85 is it since the death of Stephen Lawrence?
Trying to pretend that Britain was some sort of racial Nirvana in the 50s and 60s is just plain stupid.
It wasn't then and it isn't now although with each passing generation it seems to get a little better."
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"_AT_truthandjustice28

Sure, I'd love to have it a different way. I would have it so neither you or I or anyone else would have had to go through those kind of horrible experiences and that racism would only be a thing of the past, and we can all enjoy different cultures."
"I once at work challenged my manager's assertion that women were the discriminated against group by saying that in my view far worse things happened to men who were badly treated by divorce in relation to their children etc. I stll reel every time i recall the tirade of abuse that I got, culminating in accusations of (completely fictional) instances of ""sexism"" which I had apparently committed. My fellow workers were standing around mouth agape, rather hoping that it wasn't going to be their turn next.
Orwell had a term ""smelly little orthodoxies"""
"Burnip wrote:
I have experienced highly educated people ask me questions about being Chinese, the kind of questions I used to answer my friends in primary school. A lady in her mid 30's had never had close contact with a Chinese person, and was too posh to have ever visited a takeaway
Burnip, I've never had to endure some of the other slights and affronts you refer to in your post, and they sound appalling - but come on, is it 'racist' for people to ask you questions about your origins? 'Racist' for a colleaue to admit that they've never had close contact with a Chinese person?
My own heritage is very mixed, and as a consequence of that, and being an anthropologist and therefore interested in different cultures, I inevitably ask people about the origins of their surnames, their accents, etc (and indeed get asked about my own a lot, too) Is that racist? It's based on curiosity and acknowledgement. of a difference, and a basic human interest.
Maybe some of my questions haven't been welcome - and unbeknownst to me, people have gone away muttering 'racist' under their breath. But why should that be 'racist' and yet an unwelcome question about someone's salary or sex life merely be just that - 'unwelcome'?
I'm not trying to be contrary - I honestly don't get it, and I don't agree with the dictum that 'if person feels they've been a victim of racism, then they have.' For us all to get on, we have to come to some agreement as to what the word means, and what the behaviour really is."
"_AT_lordflyte

No, no, she wasn't racist at all, that post was more 'my experiences off the top of my head' whilst typing quickly.
She was v.lovely but I was just really surprised that a well educated lady in her 30's? (and others) had really no experience of a Chinese person before. There's a large Chinese community, it has it's own China Town (we worked in Birmingham). It's the age of the internet you can find out anything you want. Just surprised
No I wasn't offended by her questions or anything like that, and was happy to answer them. But I distinctly remember thinking 'god, I haven't been asked that since primary school'
No, definitely not racist at all."
Oh of course. Stormfront, Combat 18, the National Front, they're all full of those pesky ethnics. I routinely hear of black and Asian people claiming how they are the master race, and that everyone else should be deported/terminated/enslaved.
"Where is the rest of the article?
Or was there a Part 1 published previously that I have yet to read?"
"Burnip
I am not trying to be unkind - nice people are nice people whatever group they belong to - I wouldn't disagree with that for a second
I am simply saying that the portrayal of 'racist' Britain in the 1960's is a massive exaggeration
Race became a hot topic towards the end of the 1970's - before that time for most people it was not so.
Perhaps people here who are not white should sometimes acknowledge the massive change that happened during those years
British people by and large are very good on this subject
and for anyone who talks about violence
there has plenty of violence the other way around
so probably best not to go there
Baggins45
Perhaps it is worth looking at what was going on around the time of the so-called Notting Hill Race Riots (at the end of the 1950's)
At the time the papers were full of lurid details about the Mau Mau uprising in Kenya
this included stories of the 'massacre of whites' and even alleged cannibalism
at the time it was still a novelty for people in Notting Hill to have black neighbours (plus the English Nazi Party HQ was located in Notting Hill Gate ) so I am sure they stirred the pot
If one looks at the prison sentences handed out to the perpetrators, they were very severe
hardly a sign of an endemically racist society !
(around the same time in the Southern States of USA people who murdered black people typically didn't even stand trial, or if they did, they received very light sentences)"
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"_AT_truthandjustice28 29 September 2010 7:26PM


I'm sure everything you say is absolutely right, I don't claim to know much about Britain's cultural/social history, I just put my personal experiences out there in the comments, and that I was only talking about me/family/friends. I'm not a fan of 'my anecdotal evidence is proving a point' -I hope that came across. I wanted to make sure my comments couldn't be mis-read in an argumentative tone. I quickly re-read it and I think it was pretty neutral.

I'll take it without hesitation, gratefully accepted.
Yeah, I regret that discussions like this always end up being lists of unhappiness. There's never space for positive comments, and I could go on about all my brilliant friends, people I've met of interesting backgrounds, how I've had loads of positive experiences because people were interested in me being different.
I was shocked by how far the early comments completly missed the point. They seemed much more angry than anything I've posted. I completely subscribe to the 'common sense' approach to all this, there's no right or wrong, only shifting attitudes and more understanding. My daughter is half white English half Chinese, I'm very interested in wondering what experiences she will have growing up and how her looks will affect her experiences of society in the Britain of 2030.


I'm all for it, he's got my vote"
The New Labour Public Sector 'GRAVY TRAIN' has run out of steam! All these horrendous non jobs for which the unskilled, underworked and overpaid have leeched millions of pounds from the tax payer are going to go the way of the dodo! Hopefully Mr and Mrs Average Working Class/Middle Class tax payer, regardless of ethnicity, religion or creed will get a tax break. The only scum in our society are the socialist elite and the undeserving poor (see chav scum) who have bled this country dry over the past 13 years NULABOR misrule. What we need to see is an Egalitarian system with Libertarian financial policies. We saw the total oppostite with Labour.
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_AT_nyanza - you're right that it's not the Gettysburg Address, but not in the way you infer. Lincoln's 3 minute civil war speech was about a hundred words shorter than Muir's opinion piece above. The Gettysburg Address certainly had more to say about equality IMHO.
All you have to do is to tell the blacks they are oppressed, that this is the fault of the Whites, and then taunt them with equality, and the Communists have them by the skin.
"Regardless of the quality/length/depth of Mr Muir's article, I have found the comments posted most interesting. All of those that have been angered by this article, or the mere possibility of the need for 'equality trainers', I ask this simple question...why? Why are you so offended by an organisation making an effort to either further educate their staff, on the naturally ever evolving equality legislation and/ or best practice, or where necessary, take steps to eradicate unacceptable behaviour in the workplace? I simply cannot believe that those angered most by subject of this article have never witnessed to participated in a conversation that would or could be deemed unacceptable.
I recently attended an equality training session. Within 30 minutes the CEO had volunteered that that they mistrusted fat people in the work place because they lacked self control or will power, would never employ someone who did not have English as a first language and another relatively senior practitioner tell us that all immigrants are here to steal our benefits, make duplicitous claims ( because you can't tell them apart you see) and Africans don't value life nor are they capable of being law abiding.
The trainer did an absolutely terrific job of exposing their bigoted nonsense and a formal complaint made. The point being that their ideas and subsequent behaviours were exposed and rejected by the majority of those in the room. I sincerely hope that they will know in future that introducing their narrow minded bile to the workplace will not be accepted and their behaviour modified. Equality training is very much an important aspect of every working environment and should be encouraged, not rubbished by those that have very little understanding of what discrimination is and its impact upon on society.
P.s I'm becoming increasingly worried for the readership of the guardian. More and more I have to pinch myself to realise I'm not reading an awful tabloid comments page...or the dreadful Daily Mail."
It has been my experience that those that yammer and pontificate the most about bigots and racism are the worst offenders. The holier-than-thou attitude has overstayed its welcome on this planet. Please climb down from the morally superior platform, we might start mistaking you for a wild eyed, rabid, liberal democrat with nefarious intentions.
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THE most ignorant sentence always begins with, "it may not be PC but...."
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"So, spambodyguard, it's true because ""a friend"" told you is it?
Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

No they are not. And you know it."
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Said it better than I could have. Article makes me fume with it's assumption of moral superiority.
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"Ace42 - an example of your breathtaking bigotry:
""Of course the only reason why the job would go to Eastern Europeans rather than low-skilled native Britons is because most low-skilled native Britons are exceptionally lazy or stupid, and as such terrible employees.""
Isn't this the real reason for your fine liberal attitudes - a middle class smug contempt for the council estate dwelling, Sun reader type? Has it occurred to you that being reluctant to work a 40 hour week for an extra £10 a week is a rational and understandable response and not necessarily an example of exceptional laziness or stupidity? Or that one of the reasons employers favour E Europeans is that they can squeeze more out of them for less?
PS anyone noticed how many comments have been removed by moderators (censors)? Clearly the Guardian believes in loading the dice when it comes to its worldview being challenged."
"""equalities trainer""
*Shudder* what a terrible job. My first job after finishing my post-graduate training was in the City and I was forced to attend a series of such seminars. They fed us a pack of stupid stereotypes all wrapped up under the heading of ""cultural awareness"". Load of rubbish.
I did what any normal, decent human did. I quickly found out that colleagues from different ethnic and national backgrounds were really quite similar to me in the ways that mattered. I needed no ""equalities trainer"". Moreover, this has been going on for years. My father grew up in a pit town in Lancashire where Poles settled after the war. They were at first viewed warily then later accepted. His childhood friend was a Polish lad and he grew up speaking a bit of Polish."
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"The author does state that the two out of thirteen never quite go away. Then he has done as much as he can. I probably would believe ""the things you hear"" because if you didn't hear them, then you would have finished your task.
Of the thirteen who ""make the effort"", it seems that they are being stereotyped as bigoted but willing to dissemble. Where is the equality in that presumption.
Has the equalities trainer ever done a session with a church or mosque congregation? Do let us know and what the people said."
"Burnip
Thanks for your acceptance of my offer !
Best wishes"
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"from article

Strummered
As little as LAbour I guess, since their volte face means that he may have to veto."
Ja.
No. No one can talk him into anything because he's sure he knows everything already. If he says he's changed his mind, he's just lying

never seizes to amaze me how uninformed Brits are about European matters, yet shout about like they know best and everybody else is stupid. really, do keep up, the matter of FTT has been resolved quite a while ago. Merkel is not, and has never threatened anything.
", it depends on how serious Cameron thinks the Tory eurosceptic rebellion is, I think he will have ignored Labour as cynically opportunistic, I imagine he may need something in the way of a concession and Merkel is just too seasoned a politician to take a hard line.
We'll see."
...dogmatic... surely.
That damn spellchecker!
"The Agenda of the two countries are totally different. Germany wants to be top dog so it can smuggle out all its manufacturing at the low rate of the Euro. Germany are happy to have all the economic Aces and dictate what other countries can spend, it is domination by other means. OK no tanks and blitzkreig this time, but the rest of the EU are still held by the short and curlies by the country that has most to gain and by the country who is calling the shots.
, she can threaten us to make life difficult if we leave, she can threaten us in so many other unpleasant ways, with her lapdog France brown nosing every step of the way.
If Cameron has anything about him he will make it clear to Merkel, that any blackmailing of the kind we have had from the EU in recent times will do nothing to endear the EU weary electorate of the UK to her or Germany's grand plan.
I truly believe that as our balance of payment situation is so dire and skewed there is very little the EU can do to us to worsen a situation that is already unsustainable.
To my mind, Cameron and Labour should both confirm that the people of the UK must have the vote on whether they want to continue to live in the shadow of an all powerful Germany, and that any further pressure exerted by Germany will simply accelerate the day when the British people have their say.
 It would save us a fortune and any idot who says if we left we would be unable to influence the direction of the EU also needs a reality check. , inside or outside our views are ignored, getting out now before we get sucked into the fourth Riech is our best option."
"Aw crap. Two small, mountainous nations who've made a living out of oil and fishing or being the receptacle for the worlds blood money for about 700 years are not remotely comparable to Britain.
As we've run out of oil and fish then that's that option gone. As to turning ourselves into another rotten stinking tax haven, only right wing fundamentalists dream of that... normally after they've executed a poor person after having grovelled to a rich one. We have too big a population, who are too diverse and too upity to fall in line behind bankers.
Anyway, thank god we'll never be Switzerland, the worlds largest parasitical state


No, with FPTP we have no say on anything. The democratic deficit starts much closer to home, and blaming Europe for our shortcomings is typical of the right, whose favourite sport is finding new scape goats for their own, never ending failure."
I've heard one of the big German investment banks is doing its best to move as many jobs out of London to Germany but it is a bit of a disaster. The people in Germany have no experience so just refer everything to their colleagues in London who end up having to do twice as much work because the jobs that were 'moved' meant they cut the competent people in London.
If Germany is suggesting we should swap economies, then yes please......
"""This country most certainly can live without the EU pushing it around, Norway and Switzerland are content to live on the periphery and so would we be. It would save us a fortune and any idot who says if we left we would be unable to influence the direction of the EU also needs a reality check. With majority voting we have no say on anything, inside or outside our views are ignored, getting out now before we get sucked into the fourth Riech is our best option.""
Get your facts right and the post again. In order to be allowed business with the EU on a ""most favoured"" basis, Norway and Switzerland had to incorporate all relevant EU-legislation into their national laws. Furthermore, both countries are part of Schengen, therefore no border-controls, no passports, none of all that nonsense that make British border-controls seeming so extremely unfriendly and paranoid. Furthermore, neither of the countries has any say in Eu matters, even though they are directly affected by many of the decisions made in Brussels. Is that really what you want for Britain? Sounds like treason to me."
You sound like a deluded James Bond baddie. Leave out the big words and conspiracy theories and people might start to take your seriously.
You mean the Switzerland that is one of the most democratic nations on Earth? Yeah, ghastly to be anything like them. Forgot, the hard left aren't too keen on the proles having a say in their governance.
Oh God , here we go with the finest hour , Dunkirk spirit , we stand alone fighting the Hun nostalgia spiel . Talking about living in the past , this post is a gem of its kind . Old fogginess is truly the last refuge of the bore . As to Norway and Switzerland I am sorry to say but Britain is no Switzerland or Norway by a million miles . But then I suppose that self-delusion and ignorance of the real world out there is the inevitable consequence of living in ( not so ) splendid isolation in a time bubble.
Who knows? Whatever the case, the far left are nowhere near governance and the problem of today is the far right and their gradual march towards corporate fascism.
Can Cameron talk Angela Merkel into being a more prudent ally?
"""The Germans want Britain to stay in the union. They need a large, liberal-minded ally lest the EU becomes dominated by Gallic ideas about industrial policy and trade protectionism.""
Translation of ""liberal minded"": prepared to sacrifice ordinary people on the altar of neo-liberal dogmas."

"Well.. I suppose only time will tell...
But for all intents and purposes, a Europe without Britain is a Europe without a Veto."
"I think the majority could'nt give a flying **** about your cheap insult and the only thing that keeps us in that corrupt,parasitic union that cannot even justify its existence is the likes of Cameron.
I would'nt be too sure of Scotland leaving regardless of Scots Nats on here.........its running at 2/3 rejecting independence."
"I agree.. the majority are in the Brexit camp...
I think that's great... I believe Europe will do better without Britain in it.
If you think Britain will do better without ""Europe in it"" then it's a win/win isn't it?
Let's Brexit... The sooner the better..."
"What the EU fears is the domino effect.
I dare say the UK goes,one of the Northern states will follow staright after and so on.
My money is on the Finns leaving straight after us."
The most Eurosceptic people I've ever met are from Denmark.
"Europe Minister says Denmark will not follow Britain.
http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/ECE1804159/eu-if-britain-goes-it-goes-alone/"
"A Finnish government official has stated if the austerity is not met by bailed out countries to which the Finnish people have contributed,they will have re-evaluate its continuation in the Euro.
Danes,Finns or even the Germans may call time on this unworkable union that is only propped up by the North."
Just the opposite, If the UK goes... I think we'll see a rush of people joining the EZ.
"I think you miss the point. I fully understand many government positions on the future of the EU. The problem is these articles and the comments characterize the public opinion on the EU as overwhelmingly positive as opposed to a uniquely British position. Ain't so. It's far more complex that that.
You need to question the long term viability of an unhappy marriage."
"Turkey?................its large population would give it voting rights to be a big player and as Europe is seeing the re-emergence of the far right it would not be very popular move.
The former USSR European countries?...................how long before the Russians finally get pissed off with the EU and NATO on its doorsetp?.
Central Asia?.......Not really Europe and and again Russia would object."
"I'm not sure if Europe's diplomatic position RE Russia might not soften slightly were Britain to exit.
The paranoia count in Europe will certain fall by a UK sized chunk....
Europe would probably find allies where it currently does not..."
The Baltic States, Poland, Czech Rep., Slovakia etc detest Russia and are genuinely afraid that Russia will pull them back into their sphere of influence if they aren't careful. The EU's position won't soften just because Germany and France are indifferent to the Putin regime.
"Might be true of the old French dominated European elite, but Euro-skepticism is hardly uniquely British these days. After all it wasn't the British that voted down the European constitution. You can see the limits of European integration everywhere. From the French and Danes closing their boarders. The German's reluctance to bail out southern Europe, the French blocking any takeover of their firms by companies from other EU countries.
Britain isn't even the only country to threaten a Veto. In a time of economic stagnation, and budget crisis. The French have said they will veto any cuts to subsidies to their farmers. Great show of solidarity there.
The Euro crisis was foreseen by the Euro's creators. They assumed that the crisis would lead to more integration, and it hasn't. The voters have simply had enough of grand European projects, and unaccountable eurocrats.
Boris Johnson of all people outlined exactly what the problem is with the EU, by comparing it to the Roman Empire. The EU is suppose to protect Europe from the globalised world, you see this with its ridiculous language policies, and protection for local products like Champagne. This is an EU that promotes difference, the local, local customs and languages.
Great, except the EU also wants to be about a closer a union. Yet this cannot be achieved while the nation state in Europe is so strong. You need European level politics, media and political parties. You need a European equivalent of Latin, an common EU language. Non of these things are happening, or even supported by the so called good Europeans like the French.
Euro federalists may fantasize about a British free EU, but if they think that would suddenly eliminate all the barriers to integration and create a new EU state. A new Eu superpower, then they are deluded."
"Utter nonsense, the former soviet countries joined the EU to specifically get out from under the Russian yoke. Ask anyone who is Russian how popular they are in The Baltics, Poland, and the rest. I really don't know where you get such an opinion from, but its not the real world I assure you.
On another EU related matter, you do grasp that for the 18th year running the EU accounts haven't been signed off. If this was a commercial business it's directors would have been struck off by now."
"And yet they STILL haven't collapsed in a heap... Meanwhile the US has just invented several trillion dollars from thin air.. then lost it again... and nobody in this country seems to be questioning their grasp of accountancy...
I don't think it really matters whether the former soviet states are in, out or somewhere in between...
They are small nations unlikely to make much difference in the global balance.
What matters is the relationship between Moscow and Brussels.
I think with Britain out of the picture that relationship will improve.. Putin has hinted at it himself.
Even if Russia does not come along on it's own .. it will come along as part of the SOE when China moves closer to the EU."
"The Russians take the piss out of Brussels, all they want us a visa regime and a gas supply line. Dear god you're naive.
The former soviet stars want Han outs and no Putin boot on their heads. Poland small?? The Baltic states insignificant? You need a geography lesson.
The USA has an independent currency and all that it means including printing money, you need an economics lesson as well.
You're not having a good time on this thread are you? I'd back off if I were you."
"There is so much irony in this statement I don't know where to begin.
Firstly... You need to look back in history at all nations that printed or devalued or inflated, and see what happened. In every single case.. the results are the same. Even Rome.
Secondly.. if you had said even 15 years ago, to an American economist that the US would print money.. They would have laughed in your face and told you that only communist african nations print money."
"You have to get with the times.
They are not ""printing money"" or ""debauching the currency"", or ""devaluing"" or ""inflating"" or any of the things that previous more foolish nations did.
Oh no! ... what the US (and UK) are doing is ""quantitative easing"", which is a totally different phra ... erm ... concept altogether."
"Dear oh dear, that's the best you can come up with is it. Again not a fact in sight.
The consequenses of QE or printing money is dealt with in most economics books by about chapter three. There's nothing new in the knowledge that QE can cause infaltion or devaluation of a currency. However, against that nations such as Geeece and Spain have no real option, they are caught in a failed experiment and have only two choices. Grexit and default or live in debt for the foreseable future and keep takingg handouts. Given their fixation with corrupution, early retiremant and welfare spending it's likely they'll be looking at your pension pot for another loan they can't pay back.
You do grasp that all those nasty bankers and financial institutions have been lending your pension fund and savings to the likes of Greece and Spain I assume. You're the one who will be taking the ultimate haircut in this debacle. That's why Cameron sits on the fence so much, he knows it's the public that are going to take the big hit. It'll look like the banks, but actually it's your money that will be lost when the Euro collapses or the Greeks default.
And all this because of Jaques Delors, Jaques Santer, Fred Arditti, Neil Dowling, Wim Duisenberg, Robert Mundell, Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa and Robert Tollison. Who of course now admit they made a very bad mistake.
So on balance I'd say a bit of inflation or devaluation was a small price to pay."
"The facts are.... the UK and US have printed.. and the Euro has not.


We absolutely HAVE to have inflation... there is no way out of it.
In fact we've been planning it.
The problem is that if we inflate.. but the Euro doesn't... we're sunk.
And that.. in a nutshell.. is what all this is about.... getting the euro to inflate...."
david cameron being flexible well anything is possible with his remarkeble ability to U turn or shall we say eUturn, but merkel has as much as chance of departing cameron from his beloved london then persuading nigel farrage to be the leader of the EU
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"The EU is in a crisis from which it cannot escape.
The Euro was always doomed to failure and, as we now see, Brussels is incapable of even seeing what the problem is, let alone trying to put it right.
As far as the EU budget is concerned, there will always be a majority for an increase because of the simple fact that a majority get more out than they put in, leaving Germany and the UK to foot the bill.
The whole, terrible system has broken, and if the UK is the one to start a return to the ECC, then we will be doing the whole continent a favour."
You say compromise, I say throwing good money after bad.
"This assumes that saving the Euro is better than political integration. A strangely common assumption, but presumably a product of myopia.
They can set up all the unions and democratic oversight they want, but unless people believe in the state being created, believing that they are all Europeans rather than Greeks or Finns or French, they won't support it or its cardboard democracy when they find their votes don't do anything. Democracy is more than just casting a vote. It means believing that the right group of people - your people, whoever they may be - are the ones voting.
That is a long-winded say of saying that unless people in the Eurozone want to be in a single state together - and I don't think they do - fiscal union won't work."
Cameron is a disgrace and an embarrassment, and more European leaders need to tell him this. He swans around the middle east sucking up to kings and princes or repressive regimes in order to seel them military hardware, but towards his European partners whose values and practices are closer to his, or supposed to be, he behaves like a juvenile. He would do well to spend time in Germany and to see with his own eyes how that admirable country is run, see its industries, where they have found ways of making things other than things that kill people, and making them superbly well, travel on its public transport and see inside the the houses and flats that were constructed in the last 30 years, all of which are light years, light years, ahead of anything in Britain.
"Germany is the third largest arms exporter in the world after the USA and Russia. The UK is only fifth, with Germany exporting twice what we do.
The rest of your post on the relative merits of the UK and German economies was equally inaccurate."
"Of course Godon and Blair didn't do those things, Oh no...the last Labour administration cultivated an ""ethical foreign policy"" so I remember, although the guy who tried to implement it sadly died....like the integrity of the Labour party.
Short memories guys, short memories. Whilst I wouldn't endorse sucking up to dictatoprs and Prince's whilst they hold the pens to sign business contracts the options are rather stark if you don't want to deal with such people.
Alternatively you can deal with the EU by reference to Germany who will advise whether any of the countries in the EU can spare the public spending to trade with you...providing of course Frau Merkel has approved their budgets - democracy, such a marvellous concept, far better then Prince's or dictator's eh?????Tell that to the Greeks!!"
"""The Germans want Britain to stay in the union. They need a large, liberal-minded ally lest the EU becomes dominated by Gallic ideas about industrial policy and trade protectionism.""
This sentence here is really important, because there is much truth in it. In front of the EU-curtain Germany and France are ""best buddies"", but behind the curtain it is often the ""common sense"" of the UK and Germany which helps to settle things in Europe. Therefore, it will be nothing short of tragic for Germany if the UK left the club. Unfortunately the British public gets more and more irrational every day concerning the EU (which everybody knows), so Germany is somewhat stuck between a rock and a hard place. I guess even ""master-negotiator"" Merkel is not able to reconcile the opposing opinions on this matter in the long run."
"No offence meant by this..
But this is a typically British viewpoint... Without Britain.. everyone will flounder .. because they're all inferior.
Germany and France can't do diplomacy (a word etymologically from the French by the way) without British involvement?
I appreciate your position.. but there's the same hubris in here that there is in the right wing's European arguments.... Britain.. with it's 60 million will overcome and do better than a united Europe... Because we're just better than they are.... they're all stupid... It's just hubris... our elite are essentially awaiting their nemesis...
Let's bring it to them at lightning speed."
"I seem to remember that it was mostly British politicians and economists that said the Euro would fail. I suggest you have a think about that and policies the EU are following. It's not about Europe per se, its about a self serving centralised bureaucracy that's heading into a large brick wall. There's historical precedence for this of course, it was called the USSR.
Having lived in both the former USSR and the UK it is clear to me and my spouse who grew up in the soviet era which way the EU is travelling, and its not a pleasant route. The whole united Europe argument is totally spurious as you might find out if you got out and saw the world. It seems so attractive when you're young and total bullshit when you grow up!"
"Oh I've been lucky enough to live through the halcyon period of human civilization.
Post war 20th century Britain... A country in which we were given the best healthcare the world could offer, free education, social security, affordable housing... I've been very lucky.
And I'm pleased that you are finding your life agreeable in the UK, but I assure you... it is Britain that is travelling in the wrong direction.. We are gripped by an elite of madmen bent upon squeezing us until our pips squeak... They'll destroy everything that was good about this country... And probably anything else that get's in their way... They are quite.. quite mad.
Europe is trying to wriggle free of them.... That can only be good for them."
"You really don't know what the hell you're talking about, empty rhetoric. As a Brit born and bred I have had the opportunity to travel a lot, a decade in the former USSR for instance. A more messed up, exploitative culture you won't find. A disaster on an epic scale.
On my return to the UK what I see is a credit hungry public who want what they can't afford, a welfare system that borders on a dependancy culture, an open book immigration policy that was set up to increase the Labour vote, an economic policy that is described as slash and burn in the city. An education system that refuses to countenance success and wants to lower the bar.
The madmen that set that up were the Labour Party aided and abetted by the centralised bureaucrats of the EU. The Tories maybe crap but Labour, who I voted for, were one hell of a lot worse. A lot of closet Marxists who want social control and damn the public.
The EU is killing Europe, not wriggling free. Get out and see, go and live and work in Europe and see the inertia and the poverty. You don't have poverty in the UK, people like you think we have, but we don't, its just relative. Go to Naples or Riga, go to Moscow or Athens, you'll see poverty."
The German and French banks are being propped up by the suffering of southern Europeans being forced to adhere to Austerity policies imposed by the EU. This is shocking and anyone who considers themselves democratic should be ashamed of this catastrophe. British politicians of both the left and the right could se this happening when the Euro was embarked upon and they should be given more respect for correctly predicting the future.
Please ask them to wriggle harder. They are doing so well that I am sure they don't need our billions any more and we can use them to provide for our own......
"We could use the EU subs for that purpose... do you think we would?
Or would they get swallowed up fomenting revolutions in the middle east, or bailing out collapsed banks
of our own?"
"From what I can see.. There's quite a lot of austerity in the UK..
Of course it could be just coincidence that it follows our banking collapses...
People in Britain have been predicting the demise of the Euro since it started you're right.
Yet since the crisis began in earnest last year the euro has fluctuated against the pound by no more than 6p.
Nobody has left the Euro.. nobody has collapsed....
The Euro will still be here when I die, and people in this country will still be predicting it's imminent demise."
"The real story here is not whether Cameron and Merkel can find the proverbial common ground, but why they continue to espouse free market bullshit in the face of overwhelming evidence demonstrating its failure.
The EU, which clings to neo-classical economics like a toddler to a blanket, is so blinded by its orthodoxy that it can't even move beyond the framework of 'deficit reduction'. Cameron is the same, although unlike his European counterparts he is obliged to pander to the idiocy of the Tory right and all its 'progressive' views."
"As ever the thread descends into “ha bloody Europeans collapsing and not before time” vs “yah boo, pathetic rainy island on the periphery of a great continent about to be consigned to the dustbin of history” – neither of which are remotely true.
Germany would probably dearly love a UK more in the fold, if nothing else as a useful sometime partner when it wants allies against French interests. Closer integration if the euro is to prevail is also likely, which itself causes problems for those non-euro EU members. The euro bloc will be reliant on German (and to a lesser extent French) fiscal support, therefore the votes of the 17 eurozone nations are going to be closely aligned to what Germany and France need.
The UK is rightly concerned that EU legislation is thus pushed through not for the benefit of the wider EU community but for the narrow interests of the euro group (again with due weight to German and French interests). So Cameron would be mad to merrily go down that road without seeking checks and balances on this.
Financial regulation is rightly a pre-occupation for Cameron, it is a far larger part of the UK economy compared to the French and German economies. There is also a sentiment within France in particular (and on the pages of CiF) that “Anglo-Saxon” capitalism is responsible for all their ills and that the euro would have been fine and dandy under any weather if those damned banks hadn’t made dodgy loans to disreputable home owners in Midwest America – it is myopic nonsense but is a powerful myth.
A similarly powerful myth is that if we somehow regulate the shit out of the banks, the economy will magically rebalance, achieving greater redistribution, no net loss of tax revenue over an acceptable period of time and if jobs are lost, well they are City spivs so who cares and its not like they can’t do something else in the South East. A hell of a gamble for any politician.
Cameron needs a ring fence around the City from EU legislation because any regulation or taxation is win win for France and Germany. If it works, it makes the banks safer and raises money for an EU pot predominantly from a UK industry. If it doesn’t, well no problem, it is the UK that will bear the greatest cost as jobs and businesses relocate to Switzerland, the Far East or the US, it might even have a nice side effect of bringing that Cameron down a peg or two and forcing the UK into a closer, more dependent relationship with the EU.
Obviously there are those on CiF that would see the above as a price worth paying as a means of enacting their vision of a more socialist economy. But anyone who cares about the interests of the UK in the medium term for a moment realise that there would be a significant cost in terms of tax take and jobs.
Suggest to Merkel that the EU imposes a green tax on high performance cars or to Hollande that we reform CAP to level the playing field to encourage African agricultural development – they’d laugh in your face, it would be completely off the agenda. So should EU imposed reforms for the UK financial services industry."
The wheeling and dealing that goes on in public view, let alone behind closed doors, only goes to show how countries are in the EU to better their own interests and not those of the EU as a whole. If the UK is a spanner in the works then we should leave, and let the Europeans get on with it, somehow I doubt things will suddenly become harmonious in this Tower of Babel.
One of the most sensible and well thought through posts I have read for ages.
"Small?
That is the trouble with economic discussions nowadays - few people have any grasp of the immensity of the numbers being bandied around."
Actually, my example understates things. in fact 100 billion seconds have not yet elapsed since the founding of the Roman republic..
or to put it into another perspective, it's 100 billion nanometres apart.
She doesn't need to talk him around as Cameron really doesn't have any power in Europe as the UK is on the fringes. It's always surprised me the way British prime ministers always try to dictate to Europe in the hope of getting political kudos at home.
"Don't think Cameron is inflexible, he's a man without a plan, short or long term, all he's got is a kind of death wish existentialist nihilism.
He'll wrap himself in the union jack, pull out of the EU, if it'll save his skin, but you wouldn't really say he was a nationalist. He's an attitude not a philosophy, a bizarre mix of class prejudice, right wing anarchism, a desire to smash the state.
Give him a way out that lookss good, but means nothing, and he'll take it, his only loyalty is to himself and the global super rich."
"And

Hmmm. Some contradiction there.

Why?"
"It'a over
We will have a referendum and say Aufwiedersehn Pet to Merkel and the rest of them.
Good thing too"
"We paid into one of the bail-outs and we're not even in the euro. Cameron has a right to suspect changes to the euro will result in closer union.
Furthermore Germany's behaviour under Merkel has been a disgrace.
Trying to blackmail the UK by threatening transaction taxes etc and to weaken London as a financial centre versus Frankfurt (yes I know: bankers boo hiss but German ones are no better). Then complaining when we link arguments on the euro, opt-outs and the budget
Delaying any form of PIIGS settlement to such an extent as to endanger democracy
Possibly going back on word on guarantees on Spanish restructuring
Germany has been brutally self-interested and Cameron should be fully aware of it."
We really need to start making progress here and not hang around waiting for things to come right. It won't come right, the whole shooting match is horribly flawed and increasingly fewer and fewer people like the look of this corrupt all dominating bureaucratic creature.
Germany and the UK are not very good europeans unfortunately which is pretty crap news for the rest of the continent. The rest of Europe should kick them both out in my view.
"Money is a keystroke at the Govt level.
Getting indignant about it doesn't change the fact that the continent is dying because of stupid austerity problems even if you can't see it.
Do you think when push comes to shove in the States they wont raise the debt ceiling ?
Do you thik the US is dumb enough to say OK thats it. We've run out of money.
You debt terrorists do my head in."
"Merkel needs to accept that a break-up of the eurozone (if fiscal and political union is required to save it) is absolutely in Britain's national interest.
For centuries a primary aim of British foreign policy has been to prevent a concentration of political power on the European continent.
Is there any good reason why this should have changed?"
"Oh I think Merkel understands the situation.
In fact I think the whole of Europe understands the situation.
This situation couldn't be better for Europe.
Not only will any exit from Europe be seen by the British public as hard won victory.. but the exit seems almost inevitable... The Europeans must have to practice suppressing their smiles each night before bedtime."
"Who are ""the Europeans""? Why does everyone assume it's only Britain that has reservations on what is happening. These changes are epoch making potentially and the blind enthusiasm assumed here would be an utterly insane reaction.
You think everything will then automatically be hunky-dory? It's seriously bad news for the other nations of Europe if there is no counterbalance to Franco-German dominance."
Yes.. they'll be goose stepping up and down in no time... etc. etc. etc.
So how exactly are German economic interests going down in Greece at this exact moment?
"I'm not sure if you remember this... but the Greeks were free to leave the Euro.. in fact they voted against it.
Also it's been said many times by some northern Europeans that a Euro without the club med states is probably a much healthier one in the short term. So There'd be nobody pushing hard for them to stay...
I think this is fundamentally your problem... You want the loose nature of the EU to be it's undoing.. and yet when it's loose nature proves itself in fact to be a strong point you want to deny that it is actually loose..
Just one small hypocrisy in the huge cannon of such flawed arguments that typify British right wing positions on Europe. Eat your cake and have it politics... Alice in wonderland.. head in the sand stuff...
The people who matter in Greece don't seem to believe that their situation is the fault of Germany.. But rather something more fundamental about the way the Greek economy works."
"I do remember that the EZ contains no mechanism for any country to leave.
It is not surprising that the Greeks voted to stay in - that way has traditionally meant free money. However, they are close to voting against the consequences of staying in - the austerity required to balance the EZ economies.
Once it becomes clear to them that never-ending austerity is the price of staying in, they might have a different view on the matter."
"They were hardly free. The EU ran a massive scare campaign against leaving the Euro.

You are ignoring the Federalist aims of these Northern Europeans. If this were a simple economic union then all the struggling nations would have been cut loose, just as they were cut loose from the ERM in the early 1990s.

I don't get you at all. Greece cannot devalue because it is tightly bound to the other Eurozone countries in monetary policy. Where is this ""loose nature"" which is a ""strong point""?

The people who matter in Germany are the EU's civil servants and the Troika. Of course they don't think the problem is the monetary union with Germany. But then the Euro elites were telling Europeans that the ERM was not the problem months after the UK had left and returned to growth. Indeed Kohl told the German parliament that ""Everyone knows Britain cannot go it alone"". We did and we were fine.
You are overvaluing the opinion of apparatchiks. But history is repeating itself and they are spouting the same bollocks as in the early 1990s."
Yes I'm sure it's all going to collapse any minute now...
"Your problem.. in so much as you have one.. is that you really believe your own theories.
Europe is not a brutal dictatorship headed by Germany.. but a loose assortment of like minded states... keen to move peacefully towards a brighter future.
There would be some 'cutting loose' if that was absolutely necessary.. but there is no desire to 'cut loose' members of the family.
Greece was given a straight up and down choice. Pull your weight.. or leave. It chose to pull it's weight.
In the process it had it's debts massively written down and is in a far better position now than it has been recently.
Greece can easily devalue by leaving the EZ and printing Drachma. But the cost of Audi's might go up a bit.
About looseness. Well... let me ask you... are all the nations of Europe harmonious, or do you think there's a problem with disagreements between nations within the EZ? Come on.. decide whether you're eating your cake or having it...
Britain is not doing fine... We've got both austerity AND QE... We are an inflation bomb waiting to go off.
Europe on the other hand has yet to engage in QE, since LTRO was a loan system and the 'Bazooka' has yet to be fired..
If the euro makes it through this without printing it will be seen as a bastion... by China particularly... which has seen it's investments in the US rendered worthless by US QE.
China has pretty much said... we're waiting to see what the EU does.. then we'll perhaps rethink our investments....
The UK and for that matter the US has all it's eggs in the Euro failure basket."
"You must be joking surely?! The Greek debt to GDP ratio is still climbing. The rate of unemployment is already excruciating. Voters continue to fly to the extremes, as in the dying days of the Weimar Republic: support for Golden Dawn has risen considerably since the last election. The hopeless debt-deflation spiral in which the country is trapped continues to consume more and more rounds of tax rises and spending cuts, all to no useful effect. It is complete madness.
The ""massive write down"" of which you speak was undertaken through a forced restructuring of the holdings of private investors (and that means organisations like pension funds and not just billionaire plutocrats, BTW) in which owners of Greek bonds were effectively told to take a haircut and still get something back, or else face a default and lose the lot. Now all of these investors have been largely cleared out. The next time Greece has to receive debt forgiveness in order to remain in the Euro - and there will be a next time - then the other EU states will be made to take the losses.
This does not necessarily mean that the Euro must eventually implode, but it'll be a very stiff test. Already disgruntled citizens in the creditor states will be less than entirely thrilled when their leaders have to explain to them why umpteen billion Euros of their bailout money has just had to be permanently written off."
"I didn't say it was brutal, a dictatorship or headed by Germany. For what its worth I believe it is an oligarchy headed by a Franco-German alliance. Why do you keep saying the assortment is loose? we have had thousands of directives demanding centralisation in the last decade, hence over a third of British laws were created during that period. We cannot sign independent trade deals and certainly I would not call the 27 states like minded. The rejected referenda and the EU's need to depose legitimate governments would be my obvious case in point.

Precisely, because as with the ERM it will show the members remaining inside the family that outside is actually the better option.

What makes you feel that Greece is in a ""far better position now than it has been recently""? The EU just changed its forecast for the Greek debt:GDP ratio at the end of restructuring from 120% to 190%!!

The looseness of the EU has nothing to do with the level of agreement between nations (of which there is little outside the political classes). I am talking about the ability of each country to produce its own legislation and trade deals etc. Countries have little leeway in this regard.

The ECB is buying its own debt - for all intents and purposes it is printing money. And Im not sure it will be seen as a bastion when Spanish unemployment passes the 30% mark.

Britain is a mess for many reasons, but we do not face as many structural problems as the struggling EU countries. The key is that Britain remains economically competitive despite our awful budget deficit. The countries ranging from Greece to France are no longer competitive and to various degrees are unable or unwilling to change this, thus they are doomed to a horrible decline if they remain on this path. The only thing they can control is the pace of the collapse."
"Response to Rialbynot, 7 November 2012 2:57PM


I think you find that the EU needs Britain. Not only as one of the biggest net-payer to the EU funds but also due to geo-political influence it still has. Also, Merkel and Cameron are not stupid, they will understand each other needs for their national politics but both are no defender of national protectionism."
Spot on . This whole irrational and psychotic national hatred of the EU / EZ in Britain has nothing to do with defending democracy and all the pious ( and hypocritical ) reasons peddled in the British press . It is simply that :(i) The British can not stand the thought of a strong unified continent ( under Germany and France to boot ) which can not be subjected to the old divide and rule tactics which Britain has used for centuries in dealing with Europe ( and its former colonies like India ! ) ; (iii) this ongoing process is a constant reminder of how politically and economically irrelevant and isolated the UK has become and ; (iii) a strong single European currency ( which does has some structural flaws but which are being addressed gradually as it should be ) has inevitably more weight than the former mighty pound and , on a lighter note , pisses off traveling and expatriate Britons who can not anymore live in Europe like kings and behave as in conquered territory by taking advantage of a multitude of weak national currencies . So its all about the very human elements of envy and resentment , frustration and sulkiness , and yearning for some idealized an mythical past . Brits would be better off ( and more at peace with themselves ) waking up to these facts and moving on rather than desperately clinging to dreams of past glories .
"'A strong single European currency (which does have some structural flaws)"" . Wow I don't think I've laughed so much in ages. You really do live in cloud cuckoo land don't you. The Euro is a catastrophe and that is even admitted by its founders, they got it seriously wrong, it will collapse, whether its this year or next year, the Euro is dead. It's not a two speed probability, its going to collapse under the wright of the erroneous thinking that started it.
As to the rest of your comments, utter tosh, its about a highly corrupt and very badly run bureaucracy that's heading in the same way the USSR did. It seems only Brits care about freedom, the rest of you are happy to be under the cosh of the European Politburo."
"Clearly the larger economic powers have a larger say in the EU... So there is a de-facto Franco-German alliance without doubt.. but it is not a de-jure alliance. The French and the Germans agree to cooperate for the sake of the Euro, and the general European project.
Greece lost over a 100Bn in debt.. I know if I had my mortgage paid off.. I'd be in a better situation.
I believe the forcasts about Greece, and europe generally are pantomime, and part of the currency war being fought by Britain and the US against the Euro.
That's not true.. EU countries have as much leeway as they want... EZ Countries have leeway to do pretty much what they want, except that the ECB base rate is set for them.
The ECB is not buying it's own debt.. It's said it might...
LTRO was a cheap loan issued to anyone who wanted it.. it is to be paid back and written off the balance sheet.. which is not the same as our QE.
The Euro has not printed.. you might believe it has.. That is a separate issue.
Britain is not competitive really... Our economic balance is shot through.. The Finanacial sector is disporportionatly important to us... And if the EZ moves in the direction it wants to.. that can only mean trouble for the City.
We can't out make the east, and we won't be able to out bank the EZ, especially not when the Yuan begins to be held in reserves.
That having been said.. clearly Britain is in a better position than many others.
But does that matter?
Spain might not be doing so well.. but it is in the Euro.
Rotherham doesn't do as well as London.. but that doesn't matter.. a pound buys the same amount of milk in both places.
I think your comments about France etc. are based not on fact, but some sort of horrible wishful thinking.
France is a modern economy and has the same problems we do... We are a 'modern' economy.
That means we are consumers, rather than producers... As long as we can afford to do 'comparative advantage' that's great.. but Chinese exports won't always be cheap.. then what?"
"Much of your analysis may well be true, but....
...when you say that
""the British can not stand the thought of a strong unified continent ( under Germany and France to boot )""
I feel I must point out that many of Europe's smaller nations are not too keen on the idea either."
Hmm....Polands Sikorski fears an inactive Germany the most.
"I think Poland is more of a medium-sized nation - and Poland doesn't want to find itself stuck between Germany and Russia again and is thus more in favour of ""more Europe"" and ""deeper integration"" than otherwise would be the case.
I was thinking more of places like Denmark, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary + perhaps Benelux and Austria too.
These smaller countries already fear a Franco-German-led political union.
If the UK leaves the EU, this will just add to their anxieties. Most of them will then seek to detach themselves or at least gain greater distance.
I know that Hungary and Romania are already busy establishing a closer relationship with Russia - as a balance to German and French influence."
"See, this urge to avoid history and not to break up Europe again into squabbling alliances is not only for Poland a main motivator to not to forsake the EU but to try to make it work.
That holds true for most countries, especially the small ones.

I'm not sure if you know that but those countries are also interested and agreeing to german positions.
And I'm not sure why you so overestimate the fear or a Franco-German-led political union. Remember how the EU started out...it was the core of France, Germany and Benelux mainly. That never stopped the rest from wanting to become part of it, standing in queue to do so.

I very much doubt that. A non-member of the EU is hardly a balance to any influence inside the EU. It's just ""out"".
A fate GB will learn about sooner or later too...."
The choice between squabbling alliances and fiscal union is entirely false. There are many ways of co-operating that don't involve fiscal union. Europe has been doing exactly that for the last half-century.
"""A non-member of the EU is hardly a balance to any influence inside the EU.""
Dani, debating with you is a rather annoying business, because you have a tendency (doubtless unintentional) to twist what people say.
I was not talking about ""influence inside the EU"".
I just said ""influence"".
And there's no doubt that as a counter-weight to French/German influence, smaller European countries in the east are indeed looking to Russia. As the region's primary energy supplier, Russia is quite able to wield influence. In this sense it is the perfect counter-weight. No-one here in the region wants a return to Russian hegemony, but a limited Russian influence is now quite welcome.
(If the UK leaves the EU, I expect countries in Eastern Europe will seek to increase its influence here too.)
If political union goes ahead, I predict you will end up with France and Germany + the bankrupt countries in southern Europe (Greece, Spain and Portugal). Everyone else will abandon ship - probably even the Italians."
"Problem is Russia can never be a counterweight to anything inside the EU because it...well...it's outside of the EU.
And for those countries who wish to lean on Russia there are even more who wish for the EU to be a counterweight to Russia.
I don't see where your problem is? ;)"
Well...that crisis showed clearly that errors had been made, that things have to change. What we can't do is go on like the last half-century. So....things have to give!
"The point is, Dani, as soon as the EU (or a part of the EU) becomes a political union and is revealed to be simply a vehicle for Franco-German hegemony, all the smaller nations will want out.
They will then seek to strengthen their relations with other ""outsiders"" like Russia and the UK. Indeed, this process has already begun."
"Well, the smaller nations didn't fault with any Franco-German ""hegemony"" (imagined or not) during the last decades, quite the contrary.
It was even more a Franco-German hegemony 50 years back.
Do you actually know that all these small countries have veto rights, have the same voice as France or Germany have, that if majorities are needed the so called small countries out vote the few big countries if they want to?
Do you have an idea what you are talking about?
It's the few big countries who pay more into the pot as they get out and share their votes with those who actually more take than they give?
And do you really think that Putin's Russia will give a **** about them ""smaller nations""? Do you really think Moscow will offer them more democracy and a bigger voice than the EU?
YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!
Russia had their chance with the Warsaw pact and the Sovietunion...both epic fails!
I'm not sure in which reality do you live....surely not mine!"
Finally, I'm getting to you. I love your passion. :)
"""Russia had their chance with the Warsaw pact and the Sovietunion...both epic fails!""
This is exactly why so many people here in East Central Europe are less than keen about political union.
However, they will tend to keep their mouths shut about this as long as EU money continues to flow in.
The Poles, in particular, are being less than sincere in this regard. Anyone who thinks that Poland when faced with the final choice, will join the new political union is certainly not living in reality.
They will feign support - for as long as the money flows."
Yeah...I blame you for my passionate typos! :)
Well..if that is so then they surely deserve Russias affectionate embrace...
"Bis zum naechsten, lieber Dani.
Ich hab einen Termin beim Masseur.
Tschau!"
Tschau! :)
"Cameron isn't a team player and neither is his party.
Angela Merkel won't find much scope for an alliance - even if it would ultimately be in the interests of the UK and indeed the Tory party itself."
"Cameron should offer a compromise along the lines of a GB/German joint HR team being sent into the Commission HQ next week with a remit to reduce staffing by 25%; cut the number of Commissioners by 75% and merge their retinues; cut all salaries above 100k by 10% and reduce allowances. The absurd twenty thousand euros a month plus allowances for commissioners should be halved. Travel reimbursement should be limited to standard or tourist class on all occasions.
As for the overall budget, the whole concept of funding infrastructure in other states should be phased out over a ten year period to a point where payments are limited to the running costs of the Single Market."
But it isn't just about Cameron. We are a Nation and in this case I think the vast majority would support an EU budget cut. Politicians have been wrong more often than they have been right and they should take more notice of taxpayers and electors and I would say this is doubly true in the EU which seems to be edging towards a petty dictatorship because the Establishment and Politicians have an entirely different agenda to the Citizens.
How dare Cameroon veto a EU budget rise - a far as I can see they only people who want this are a majority of the UK population, most of the government & now the official opposition
"That's why the chances are that he will veto it.
He isn't called David 'The Veto' Cameron for nothing."
".
Freezing the EU budget is a no brainer, I seriously question whether the governments of the net contributors are really listening to their electorates by agreeing to any rise, but when has the EU project been about listening to the people?"
The Germans and French don't invite the British to their negotiations because the British do not negotiate, they just shriek "these are our demands, if they're not met we will veto everything".
"Sorry but you just quoted every French president in the budget negotiations. You might not remember but Tony Blair gave up half of our rebate in order to get CAP reform. Not a penny was cut from the CAP budget in return and nor was CAP reform even discussed. Only this week Hollande has said he will veto the budget if a paltry €5 billion is cut from the CAP budget as Cyprus suggested. But sure, cry about the UK.
The reason France and Germany don't negotiate with the UK is because our aims for the EU are totally different. We do not want a federal Europe, but Germany and France are already discussing what shape a federal Europe should take."
If they want such a union, then they should join us in trying to get back into EFTA. Then the French can have their socialist union in which everyone works an 8 hour week on a guarenteed salary of €1000 per week before retiring at 27. They might have a hard time subsidising it without us and the Nordic countries though.

True. Although the official Swedish criteria now requires hell to freeze over before they will join the Euro.
I wouldn't say that, I think it's more to do with a (Quite correct) perception that the Germans want our money. The Germans won't want the UK out of Europe. Not because they like us or or because we're economically liberal, but because they realise that if the UK leaves then they'll be losing one of the main net contributors to the EU. Any budget hole would need to be filled and the southern countries would trying to squeeze more out of northern Europe.
The euro will tank if the UK leaves.
"A German work colleague and I were in the Ukraine on business in 1988, the year before the Berlin Wall fell. People there said almost without exception that the USSR as then constituted was finished simply because nobody believed in its future. Social, political, economic problems were immense but there were no levers to pull to solve any of them.
A few weeks ago I contacted my German colleague again (we have both now retired) and asked him what the mood was like in Germany vis-s-vis the Eurozone. He said - you know, it reminds me just like it was in Ukraine when we were out there; nobody thinks this show can go on for much longer because there is a perpetual imbalance between north and south/east and there are no credible mechanisms for escaping from its consequences. Leave the sinking ship seems a good policy for Britain."
"Can Merkel talk the EU into being a sensible organisation that repects national culture and norms; that understands that nations are different. Can Merkel pursaude the EU to actually run itself without the ignominity of constantly having its audits rejected for what is essentially corrupt and bad management. Can Merkel pursaude the EU to cut the democratic deficit?
Start looking at these issues and maybe there'll be a conversation, assuming Cameron has the slightest idea of the nations mood on these issues of course. But then Milliband hasn't a clue either."
Yeah yeah. Britain as the only liberal minded country in Europe...blabla. When will this national myth be buried. Compared to the economic liberalism of some European countries like Estonia, Britain is Cuba. I'd also like Britain to stay but if integration isn't possible, than a Brexit is the best way.
What British papers do you read? Do they use the Greek alphabet per chance?
Does it matter? The opinion on the world outside Airstrip One is almost identical.
"Read the article. She didn't say the only liberal country, she said a large liberal ally. Britain maybe in decline, but its GDP was 2,418 billion dollars in 2011. Compared to Estonia's 22 billion. Roughly 109 times as big. Even Poland, one of the bigger new members, has a GDP of only 514 billion. Britain's GDP is 4.7 times greater.
Britain is in decline, and in world terms irrelevant. As far as the EU goes, Britain is still one of the richest, and most populous countries."
"I didn't say that teh British economy was unimportant. But it simply is wrong to claim that Britain is liberal and France is not.
And by saying that if Britain leaves the EU would become dominated by the French and their allegedly illiberal ideas comes very close to saying Britain is the only relevant liberal force.

True. But if the only thing that Britain brings to the table is 3.5bn net contribution a year, wild accusations and no political plan, than the EU should not fear a Brexit"
"Most countries that have joined the eu in recent decades have done so entirely for what they can get out of it in terms of hard cash.
At one stage there might have been a case for the richer members paying extra to bring about some semblance of equality of basic infrastructure throughout the eu but those days are over and we are only prepared to pay a fair and proportionate share of the running costs of the Single Market from hereon. The compromise we could offer is that these subsidies can be phased out over a number of years.
It will be interesting to see if these poorer states will remain in membership once the money tree tap is turned off."
And Merkel won't be able to convince Cameron. But he could man up, behave like an adult and stand up to his party which is just full of little children. He probably won't.
Cameron's party is split between financial capitalists who want out and industrial capitalists who for now want in.The Labour party is just split.
"As one German MP said ""Britain wants the common market without the subscription fees"".
Same debate about foreign Aid, we want more business around the world but look the other way on poverty. For once I think Cameron is being pragmatic and I'm not a tory."
"I'm very cynical about this sort of posturing. If a German MP really did say that about Cameron's statement on freezing the EU budget then, as far as I'm concerned, it was just code for ""We're really pissed off because Britain won't provide the EU with lots of extra money which is only going to be used, in a roundabout way, to try to prop up the Euro.
""Hang the fact that we agreed to their opt-out from the whole thing in the Masstricht Treaty - if we have to stump up countless billions to keep the whole thing on life support then so should they. It's all so UNFAIR!!!"" (stamps little feet in frustration)
I agree that Cameron's stance on a freeze was pragmatic - it was a principled response to a ridiculous demand from Brussels and, if he'd put his foot down on that point, he might have had some chance of getting the other EU states - especially some of the other net contributors, like the Finns and Dutch - to see sense. As it is, his own rebels and Labour have clubbed together to cut the legs out from under him. As I remarked earlier, he either has to demand a real terms cut which he knows he has practically no chance of getting, or defy the will of a clear majority in the Commons. His position is now impossible."
"Neville Chamberlain understood the need for compromise in Europe but that does not mean he was right.
The political elite of these other countries are strong enough to override the wishes of their people as regards expanded European spending. Just because politicians in the UK do not (or cannot) do this should not reflect negatively on the UK politicians, in fact the primacy of democracy (as the mood in Westminister now better reflects the will of the British people) should be applauded.
Germany and co can huff and puff all they like but in the UK, unlike in most other countries in Europe, few mainstream politicians can afford to advocate more money for Europe. The EU only has itself to blame as for too long they have taken UK's money but marginalised its concerns on liberalising markets, the CAP and bureacratic expansion. It may be possible to salvage the situation yet but tiem is short."
We need to leave the EU. We were conned into joining by our rotten politicians; most Brits don't want to be in. All it does is piss off most Brits, and piss off most Europeans when we hold their project back. Let us pull out, then we can go our way, the Europeans their's.
"We need to leave the EU. We were conned into joining by our rotten politicians; most Brits don't want to be in. All it does is piss off most Brits, and piss off most Europeans when we hold their project back. Let us pull out, then we can go our way, the Europeans their's.
Exactly. We are all happy. This lingering death of our membership is doing nobody any good. You nvere know some other states might follow our lead. At the same time we can start focusing on the growth areas of the world and our natural allies."
They have to go into therapy, Just is like a Marriage if Angela gives him some space his anxiety will be dispelled.Angela had scrambled David up the Cliff. Teasing and Tormenting him with all the E.U demands.
"It's all very well chiding the Prime Minister for being inflexible, but ask yourself what leeway for flexibility he has. None at all. His position is completely impossible, of course: if he obeys the will of Parliament and tells Chancellor Merkel that there must be an EU budget cut then neither she nor any of the other EU leaders will give him the time of day, he'll be forced to deploy the veto again, and the Opposition and the left-wing half of the media will accuse him of being isolated, provocative and totally lacking in diplomatic skills. And if he doesn't obey Parliament and tries to strike any sort of compromise then the Opposition, all of his own rebel MPs and the right-wing half of the media will say that he's selling out meekly and behaving like an autocrat.
Personally, under the circumstances I think that the will of Parliament trumps all other considerations and that Cameron ought to tell Merkel that his hands are tied on the matter, and that the veto will have to be used if he doesn't get his way. This will be the cause of a lot of exasperated harrumphing on the continent and further harm our relations with other EU countries, though at least it might well do what the Eurosceptic rebels must secretly hope it will and push Britain closer to the EU exit door, which would be welcome. Then we wouldn't have to have any more of these stupid disagreements.
Whatever happens, however, Cameron is going to be stuck in the middle of the argument, taking a good kicking from at least one side, or more likely both at the same time. And, since the Labour Party has engineered a situation where it is free to attack him whatever he does, it's guaranteed to have some more fun knocking him about in the Commons over the issue. Ed Miliband must be delighted."
"We have ways of making you talk" or is that worn out joke regarded as politically incorrect? Regardless of your point of view there is no doubt who is running Europe. In the past it used to be France and Germany who would be considered in an exchange like this. Not any more! I don't know whether many people noticed this. Probably not as the debate of Europe as a whole which has enabled the focus on who is calling the shots lost in the whole of the Euro debate. You never know, the "Goose Step" may have to be adopted during the changing of the colours and other ceremonial duties.
The FTT threat is a phoney. Firstly we stand to lose even more by adopting it wholesale rather than having it imposed just for Euro transactions. Secondly, in practice we have no voice on the FTT decision at an EU level whether or not we have a vote . Finally, any FTT arrangement would last all of about 12 months as it proves to be unworkable in practice for the same reasons it was unworkable when they tried it in Sweden.
"Cameron is not strong enough to take on Angela.
Incidentaly are the Lib Dems still on holiday."
Why can't Merkel be a more flexible ally of Cameron?

If the people get our way then we will. But sadly nothing with Europe is that simple. Our elite loves the project, just as the Norwegian and Icelandic elites are desperate to get in. I just hope there is enough democracy left in this country to get us a fair referendum. No major party wants one, so our only hope is a UKIP landslide in the Euro elections that cannot be ignored. UKIP do not have a broad enough appeal to even hope to have an influence in Westminster in the next couple of parliaments and after that it will be too late anyway.
"The UK and Germany were always natural allies. Too bad the UK failed to act accordingly after the war, instead letting the BBC and Co. rerun Fawlty Towers or The Dambusters etc. for a gazillon times so that the UK population of today still knows next to nothing about modern Germany, but all about Germany 1933-1945.
The UK allied with France in 1904 (Entente cordiale) to counter the rising German threat, despite France being the UK's arch enemy for centuries. France also was the arch enemy of Germany. While the latter two made up their minds quite thoroughly after WWII, the UK never embraced Germany in the way it should, thinking that with its own Empire and its big brother on the other side of the great pond, it wouldn't need any more allies in Europe. Strangely, this didn't change when the UK joined the EEC, despite the Empire having crumbled by then. The UK could have teamed up with Germany to shape the EU in a way that is more appealing to the British population. But it didn't. The UK always complained about the way the EU was run, but never took the initiative to change things. Of course to initiate change it would have needed a powerful ally on the continent. And with France being culturally and politically quite different than Britain, that ally could have been none other than Germany, which is culturally very similar to the UK (something the UK media also broadly failed to realize for decades).
If Britain had used more of its influence to shape the development of the EU and would have seen Germany as its best and natural partner inside that organisation, then we might not even have gotten into this Euro crisis, as the Euro would either not have been adopted at all (being mainly a French idea forced on Germany) or in a form that made more economic sense. But all Britain did was snipe from the sidelines, and there you go. Now we're in this mess and the UK is still not acting in any helpful manner, with large parts of the population behaving entirely irrational when the EU is concerned (which is nowhere near your biggest problem, lads and lasses!).
And I'm afraid this irrational behaviour will be continued, eventually ending in the UK leaving the EU. But the benefits of that will be very very small, while the disadvantages will be huge. Be careful what you wish for!"
We know lots about the EU and frankly don't want any part of it. Looking at their accounts being trashed AGAIN just reminds us of how we shoudl leave this corrupt bunch to it.
"The Germans want Britain to stay in the union. They need a large, liberal-minded ally

Shouldn't that read neo liberal ally.
The coalition are hardly liberal in anyones language, they are a far right band of opportunists only interested in lining the pockets of themselves and their rich friends."
"Let the germans pay off the debts of the other euro zone members
until the germans need a bailout
But keep Britain out
Germany does not have enough gold to cover all the dollar debt so they
will need to ask the IMF, and the trioka for a bailout

and in turn the UK and USA funded IMF and World Bank will ask the germans to hand over their soveriegnty and economy in return for any loan to germany"
Why would she bother - Dozy Dave is just running around in circles trying to prop up support for himself and Osborne. He has not idea of where Europe is, let alone why its good for the UK
"the ponzi scheme goes right to the very top
the germans at the top of the bailout ponzi scheme in Europe
and the IMF and the WB above them
and even they dont have enough a gold or other financial assets to cover their loans
unless the germans want to push barrow loads of paper currency like the 1930's"
Merkel knows Cameron is a phony , she will walk all over him .
Cameroon just doesn't get it - this money is needed ....... the ECB needs at least €1.2bn for it's new HQ , the House of European History needs €120m & Mr Herman Van Rompuy needs €240m for his new office
"Yes. She shares that perception with an increasingly large part of the Conservative party, I think. Presumably Cameron sees it too, but there's not much he can do about it. That's the main perception of him in Germany: a prisoner of his party. Clegg barely registers.
Labour? I suspect there was widespread dismay about Labour's opportunism, in voting for a budget decrease. I suppose there was this hope, that there was another Blair (who turned out to be a great disappointment, Europe-wise, but who raised great hopes at the beginning there too) waiting in the wings.
Nope. Just Ed Balls.
I don't expect much from the visit, but it makes sense that she took time for it. I'd say Cameron will veto. He's too hemmed in, to do much else, now.
It's sad, though. On this particular issue, Merkel is a Cameron ally. But it doesn't make a blind bit of difference, the usual cacophany goes on. Oh well, that's the Zeitgeist for you."
I wonder what they will have for dinner suckling pig mabey .
Can't we just have a competent Angela Merkel running the UK economy instead of the omnishambles Cameron and his Eton chums
We together with the Germans are the principal net contributors to the EU budget, a disproportionate amount of which Cameron believes goes to support the weak Euro, although it's clear the positive advantage to the Germans for their contribution i.e. a weak currency to sustain their industrial economy and the principal voice in the EU set-up, what does Britain get for it's inflated contribution other than the dubious right to be just another of 25 relatively submerged voices in an EU voting pool rubber-stamping Franco/German EU policies primarily designed to enhance their own national interests - and with the certain knowledge that French and German instigated EU intentions are bent on undermining that one uniquely British economic asset -the City of London- by enforcing transitional taxes on banking in the fairly near future. Does seem we have more to gain than lose by making a stubborn stand in support of our interests even if that eventually means leaving the EU altogether.
the sooner we as a country are out of the criminal eu the beter for this country and citizans
They'll tell any lie, try any bribe or threat to keep our money going to French farmers. We are slowly drifting away, either by design or on purpose. Who cares? Democracy will carry the day.
Don't panic, Mrs Merkel. We'll solve your european problems. Once we get a vote and leave your sinking ship you'll be alone to deal with Hollande and his farmers. Good luck with that.
Something missing (so far) from Guardian articles on Merkel's visit, but which has been widely reported in various European newspapers, is a telling detail about the German Chancellor's speech in Brussels earlier today. As well as championing the need for a strong and fully-engaged UK in the European Union, she referred to Britain's key role in helping destroy the Nazi regime. Over half a century may have passed since the end of the war, but for a German head of government to make such an unequivocal statement shows true statesmanship, humility and personal nobility of a kind that David Cameron would do well to emulate in his dealings with other countries, and foreign affairs in general. Hopefully - for Britain as well as for him personally - his private dinner with Angela Merkel will prove instructive, even enlightening.
We did not beat them twice for them and the French to tell us what to do. They'll tell any lie to keep our money flooding over The English Channel whilst laughing all the way to the bank.
Where did I click wrong to end up in the Daily Mirror comment section all of a sudden?
Never read the Mirror, so I don't know.
One word...pathetic. Will you Brits ever get over facts happened more than 60 years ago? It's just ridicolous frankly
"Facts?! World War II, obviously, had an enormous impact on us and colours our views of Europeans. In just the same way we look at how we have been treated badly during our memberhip of the EU. Inevitable, no?
A great number of us have never been asked if we want to be part of this club and it is about time we were."
"WW2 is more than 60 years ago, don't you think is time to move on? WW2 had an enormous impact on everyone involved, but the world has moved on, and Germany 2012 is definitely not Germany 1933, come on! Stop looking at the world through some old specs!
Personally I would love for you guys to have a referendum, just to sort out the UK position within the EU once and for all, as it's becoming really tedious...but you only have your politicians to blame if that's hasn't happened yet...or is that French/German's fault?"
"60 years are nothing in the grand scheme of things. It is still within living memory. Why should we be enslaved by the EU when we stood alone against tyranny only recently? The EU is contrary to a lot of Briton's idea of freedom and we are firmly against it. We have a right to a vote.
We do not need to look solely at Germany,though, the French will never change their attitude to us.
The EU is a stitch up between the 2 countries. The rest are parasites living off the cash flowing to them in exchange for subservience. When the new members join the older ones have the taps turned off - look at Ireland.
Anyway, I could not agree more about our elite. They are in cushy jobs in Brussels with huge pensions and so do not want a vote on exit."
The downside of the Pound rammed so far up the arse of the US Dollar speaks for itself.
"What exactly is Germany wanting?
Wanting the UK to bail out the EU single currency, bail out failed economic states like Spain, Portugal and Greece and the risk of damaging the UK economy recovery even further?
All EU zone states turned a blind eye to some countries cooking the books in order to join the EU single currency. At a time that once again the auditors have refused to sign off the EU budgets for the eighteenth year in a row.
The UK Parliament has spoken and it is for Europe to respect the voice of the British people."
Flexible over whose objectives which may not be transparent to some of us. Whose interests is Merkel looking after? How about Cameron?
"Excellent piece.
On the subject of a future referendum, my worry is that the public have only heard
very limited arguments, and little explanation on the pro's and cons of keeping
close ties with our European neighbors.So it's become a very polarized picture,
and mainly defined by the Eurosceptics.I don't know how people can make an informed
decision based on so little information.Perhaps that is intentional- so agenda
can be pushed through in the longer term? Or maybe just a vacuum, as politicians
seek just to go along with perceived populist opinion.
But it's a chicken and egg situation- views are based only on what we are told so far and events unfolding, but that can just as easily change, or agenda reframed.
I think there needs to be a much bolder vision and long term view.
Where is the case being made at a wider level- that is simple and understandable,
to the electorate, other than extreme negatives and amidst all the bad news stories-
which are a reality, but might not explain the wider context?
I've spoken to some who think this might primarily be about hanging on to our interests in
banking and the finance industry, and fear about being nationalized etc.
But from the 80's onwards I think there was a deliberate intent to make this sector
the key driver for the economy, whilst areas like manufacturing heavily depleted.
So we may not have much to fall back on, compared to countries like Germany-
who appear to have a far more balanced approach in education, training and skills-
suited to the real needs of the economy, that is also sustainable.
We could learn a lot from them about how to grow our economy and develop
a wider infrastructure.
What about M.Heseltine's recent report, lauded by DC.
Are his points relevant to future business, R+D in Europe?

I think in the bigger picture, the UK really risks losing business contacts and links;
chances for future collaboration in areas like energy research and green technologies?
Future economies are likely to be far more global based and interlinked;
contracts on imports and exports, selling our skills and products abroad.
If we become isolated, I believe this would put us at a distinct disadvantage,
and far less powerful negotiating position- eg asking for reform.
It could also send out the wrong message that we somehow have a
""little Englander"" mentality, are defensive and suspicious, and not
willing to open up for business and sharing skills.
It's a backward step in modern times I believe, and would only lead to short term gain.
I also think our long term partners in Europe will only have so much patience!
So I do believe that a case really needs to be made in support of maintaining
our close links and allies.It should still be possible to have debates about possible
reform without resorting to a simplistic either/or in/out.
Perhaps it would be helpful to have some sort of cross party alliance
or independent body that represented a more positive position, which
also attempted to explain the reality of workings with Europe and the many
advantages?
J"
"Well lots and lots of words and absolutely nothing in the way of facts. If you think ere is insufficient information you need to get out more, you need to travel and read the press. There's plenty of into, most of it pointing towards a corrupt and seriously managed EU bureaucracy. Don't know if you've noticed but for the 18th year running the books have been reused at audit, in accountant speak the EU are accused of corruption. That's in the public domain.
Also in the public domain is ample evidence that the likes of Greece, Spain and France cooked the books to join the Euro. Even by the standards of the politicking we see that Ida fares beyond words and a certain failure as forecast by many British economists and even the odd politician.
In the public domain you. 'Ll find evidence of three democratically elected governments being hoisted out of the way to allow Eurocrats to takeover. That's known as a democratic deficit.
Shall I continue? Yes why not. CAP is one of the biggest absurdities of all, and its nothing more than an arrangement between Germany and France, the price Germany paid for the Euro and reunification. The fact that it does sod all for anyone else expect inefficient French farmers who should be pushed out of business doesn't seem to cross your mind does it.
We then have examples of referendums in the likes of Ireland and Denmark where various treaties were refused ratification, so the democratic EU kept pressing until they got the vote that suited them. How very democratic of them.
It is nothing to do with the purile comments about Little Englanders that people like you make, it's all about a highly corrupt and undemocratic, self serving bureaucracy in Brussels and a constant political trade of between Germany and France which is not in the UKs interests. It's about a rabid power hungry set of Eurocrats that saw the former USSR nations as cannon fodder, didn't understand that they were incapable of joining the modern world yet and are partying the price with YOUR money, just as they are with Greece and Spain to name but two and will be with Hollandes France. It's about a series of tragically bad choices that are bringing Europe to its knees.
Love Europe, thoroughly,despise the EU. The UK should demand that the likes of Barroso are sacked immediately and the bureaucracy cut back to the original Trade Area format. A federal Europe is a nonsense on stilts and somebody needs to ram that home.
As you sit in your little English living room pondering this, just remember that as you watch the scenes in Athens, not one of those people murmured a word of dissent as they took large loans to pay for early retirement and welfare they couldn't afford. Not one member of the EU couched caution to Greece or any other indebted nation as they borrowed their way into a mess. And again remember the money they aren't paying back is highly likely to be your pension fund lent by UK banks, which of course is why Cameron is stuck between a rock and a hard place,"
"Steady on. They don't like Euro realism on here. They'd much rather here how we are all in it together and their Tuscan villas are so nice now we are all one big happy family.
The euro has suited part of europe very well to help it's exports - the rest are going down the swanny.
Still, they got a nobel prize......."
Yes I know, thats why I like to rail on about it!!! I get sick and tired of the dreamers on this issue. I was once a fan of the idea of a Federal Europe ( about forty years ago!), but I grew up anand have seen first hand how absurd an idea it is.
The problems with the EU are too numerous to mention but the worst thing about the whole thing is the deceit of it's supporters. The lie, threaten and ignore democracy to try and perpetuate their creation. It is frightening.
Angela Merkel is a politician of integrity, leading a well-run, strong economy and a society that is fair to all. David Cameron lacks any integrity whatsoever and it is an embarrassment to have him seeming to represent the people of this country. Most people in this country despise him and shudder at the thought that the rest of Europe could believe he represents us. A disgrace of a man- greedy and out - of -touch
"Cameron is a spineless fool. He sucks up to which country he is in.
The Germans and French take turns to play good cop and bad cop"
Cameron is dominating Europe right now. He and the Kanzler both know Europe needs the UK a lot more than we need Europe. Merkel came to bet for Cameron's help.
"Only in the writers imagination has this actually happened. There have been no attempts at treaty change since cameron came to pwer.


Again this has only happened in the writers imagination-in the real world the FCO is still conducting its audit on EU competences that could be returned to the UK. No demands have been made as yet."
"Translating Merkel's speech:

Start behaving if you want a role in the EU

The war ended 60 years ago, time to move on.

I can imagine the UK not being part of Europe.

You need us, we don't need you."

She didn't got to Eton so ......no chance.
As hostage to his tory right wing and his own anti europe rhetoric which fuelled the right wing Cameron is now unable to respond to Merkel's call for unity and understanding on europe however much the europe situation requires it. Cameron is between a rock and a hard place of his own making it is now almost impossible for him to enter into any negotiations having declared his position so publicly before the negotiations even start. Any concessions he might have made are now impossible due to his having made all his anti europe noises before hand. Once again Cameron has shown his poor skills as a negotiator and has left the UK with no room to manouvre but withdrawal. Another example of sending a boy to do a mans job.
"As hostage to his tory right wing and his own anti europe rhetoric which fuelled the right wing
Wrong - hostage to public opinion in this country - all recent polls show that the majority would vote to leave the EU. When will you people realise that your narrative that dislike of the EU is confined to a small, swivel-eyed minority is just plain wrong?
It's unbelievable that those that are the first to squeal at perceived ""cuts"" in public expenditure at home at more than happy to keep shovelling ever increasing amounts of cash into EU coffers."
"As hostage to his tory right wing and his own anti europe rhetoric which fuelled the right wing
Wrong - hostage to public opinion in this country - all recent polls show that the majority would vote to leave the EU. When will you people realise that your narrative that dislike of the EU is confined to a small, swivel-eyed minority is just plain wrong?
It's unbelievable that those that are the first to squeal at perceived ""cuts"" in public expenditure at home at more than happy to keep shovelling ever increasing amounts of cash into EU coffers."
Cash which is then used by the EU to pay manufacturers in Britain to relocate their manufacturing to Turkey.
"It was very bad that Angela Merkels visit was for a supper meeting on the day of the American Presidential Election results. I have been trying to get some news report of it broadcast on the BBC and Sky. And I could only get the briefest of mentions on CNBC. This shows bad judgement on both sides. A supper meeting is showing on both sides the intention that it doesn't matter. Both parties are not discussing anything and are just proffering their own positions.
The European constitution is a complete shambles. It has 2 parliamentry buildings written into its constitution. And why is every finantial meeting held in Franfurt and put through the German Parliament? This is bad. And majority voting means that what ever happens finantial muscle of a small number of balance positive countries the core can dictate the terms to the finantially less well off countriees. The perifery.
 And, however we like it. And we don't Europe is going to go the way that Germany says either by colaberation with the germans, or in fear of having funding withdrawn by the Germans and their friends.
But for all this being out of Europe would be worse for the UK. I can't believe I am saying it but in with all the problems we will get is better than being out with all the problems we will get.
We can't influence anyone from the point of weakness that we are currently in"
"Merkel held a question-and-answer session at the european parliament, just before flying off to London.
""A europe without the UK is unimaginable to me. We need them"".
The fact that she had to make that statement does, yeah, speak volumes. And the ""need"" she's talking about isn't financial. Its not about budgets. Its about global influence."
We should have a closer examination and debate of MEP income, expenses and exactly what they do and how they do what they claim to do.
"Germany surely want the Brits in the Union. But with every far fetched egoistical demand from London and with the french influence weakening that ""want"" is also lessening by the day.
There might be come the day soon when the current Brit in charge may threaten again but that then Germans just shrug and say ""okay...there is the door"".
The mood in Germany is more and more annoyed and exasperated than borne with sympathy.
So, stop talking about it so much like weaklings and get out already. You grate on millions peoples nerves."
"It's already happened...
Merkel is here because Cameron is in a hopeless position.
He is trying to reach a face saving bargain with Germany about the EU budget because he's backed himself into a corner, blustering for domestic consumption. He needs something to come away from the summit with, that will keep the barmy British public off his back.. And worse.. the lunatics in his own party.
I think this is the last straw.. having Merkel over here is a sign of weakness.. the dogs will be at his throat in no time, and probably at ours... I doubt we'll be in the EU this time next year. Finito."
Sometimes it's better to part ways as long as there still is some respect left.
So long and thanks for all the fish?
I think you need to have a reality check. The EU without GB would be a very different set up, Great Britian are one of the four biggest contributors to the EU budget and if 'we' leave the rest of the 26 countries pick up the tab, and i am afriad not many of them can afford that.
"Do Germans want to cease to be Germans and become ""Europeans"" instead? Do they want to lose political sovereignty? What about the French? The Finns? The Greeks? Any of the other Eurozone countries?
Fiscal union is political union. If the answer to any of the above is ""no"", the Eurozone is setting itself for an enormous amount of heartache by choosing fiscal union as a solution to present economic problems. I think what they are doing will severely damage the EU - which is a useful and beneficial thing at the moment (despite all its flaws), but which will be an cause of endless strife if they try political union."
Who thanks whom? ;)
"You're totally right... Let's stick it up em... Let's leave this wretched EU pronto!
Fog in the channel and all that!"
"Why do you think that isn't recognized?
But what use of is a GB which continously vetoes and want's special rights and doesn't stop to make clear to everybody how disliked that Union is and that they are forced to against their wishes. That is not the behaviour of a constructive member but a hostile enemy who wishes to see the project fail.
The union will adapt to the loss of GB, be sure of that."
"Hmm...somehow you don't have a problem belonging to a ""home country"" and still be proud part of Great Britain, don't you?
Germans will stay Germans, as will French, Finns, Greeks etc.
People are at a cross about how and if they want to progress and integrate even further. Hence the need for a multispeed Europe. Those who want to progress should be allowed to as should be acceptable that some are not ready and willing to do so.
As it is now, with the one size fits all policy, it's an unhappy situation for everybody. A situation which has to change, with GB or without!


Actually a fiscal union is the only solution for many of the birth problems of the Euro. Nobody is interested in
subscribing to endless cheques without having control of it.
And don't mix upthe EU with the Euro-Zone. With slight changes (Greece?) the Euro-zone will integrate much further than the EU. And that very soon, because they have to."
"Not sure i agree with this.
It is not that Britain doesn't want to be part of a European Union - it is that more and more Britons are becoming increasingly disillusioned with this European Union.
The Euro is a prime example of this. British objections to it were that it was structurally unsustainable: that what is now happening was the inevitable result of introducing a single currency without a single fiscal policy. That to do so would, far from harmonising economies, as it's promoters promised,, instead entrench, exacerbate and widen already existing economic divergences between the member states.
Which is exactly what has happened.
It was the EU's ""friends"" who pushed ahead with it regardless ... witterring on about falling bicycles and missed trains and ignoring and/or dismissing British (and most rational economists') objections as being ""obstructive"" and ""wants special rights"" and who, as the result, have pushed both the Euro-zone and the EU into a huge, foreseeable (and foreseen) and totally unnecessary existential crisis.
Who then was the more ""hostile"" in practice? The ones who pushed the Euro project? Or the ones who didn't want any part of it?"
"The same conclusion.
A continent where GB is only one of many? Not directed from London? Sometimes I think Britons had no problems with an EU if it was more like an GB led commonwealth of sorts.

Agreed. Some politicians back then had been led by vision and heart instead of brain and common sense.
But that lessons are being learned (and painfully so) and being corrected.
It would be in GB's longterm interest to support that not waiting on the sidelines for the big bang."
"I see identity rather as a multidimensional concept: I am as well German, as I am European, as I belong to a certain region or a certain city, to a certain language, to a certain dialect, to a certain profession, gender, age, social class... I never understood why the rather arbitrary concept of nations should have such a outstanding position.
So why should I lose political sovereignty dependend on the fact of the decision is made on a local, a regional, a nationial or a european level, as long as there a democratic structures (and that´s the problem at the moment on the european level).
What rather puzzles me about the discussion in Britain over the EU budget is that it seems more important who spends the money than what the money is used for. I would not mind cutting the German budget and giving the money to the EU if they did something more useful (e.g. stimulation economic growth rather than paying parents not to send their children to nursery schools)."
"Plenty of Britons have issues with London too:-)
Whilst i don;t agree with your apparent belief that Britons all lie awake at night wishing that they were directing affairs in Bavaria, i do think that there is a difference in Britain's cultural tradition which prefers a hands off, ""suck it and see"", live and let live form of governance to one which is endlessly churning out rules and regulations and ""grands projects"".
Nor is this a European thing. IMO it is no coincidence that many Britons' increasing disillusionment with Westminster has arisen during the period when British governments have been becoming more and more activist, more and more centralist, and more and more ""ideas-driven"" (as opposed to ""what works"" driven)."
"Of course identity is multi-dimensional, and of course nationalism is ""arbitrary"" (in that the sense that sentiments of belonging could theoretically coalesce around other groupings). But you ignore national sentiment at your peril. Whether it is arbitrary or not, it exists. This isn't a normative statement - it's an observation.
You views are very correct, calm and rational. Deep down, I do not think they are shared by most Europeans, and judging by sentiment in Germany towards bailing out Greece, they are not shared by most Germans. They may say they are, but when it comes to actually doing something about it, they aren't.
Furthermore, Germany is a better position that most in a fiscal union because it is so large. A country like Finland, if it simply becomes part of a European state, will never get to determine for itself what happens in Finland regarding taxation and spending, and other matters. And believe me, Finns will care deeply about this - it wasn't so long ago that their grandparents were dying for the sake of an independent Finland.
There is nothing inherently wrong with countries wanting to control their own affairs. We should be more worried when they want to control the affairs of others."
If you really think that, then you do not understand British views of Europe in the slightest.
"To the contrary...we might bitch and grumble but when it comes to actually doing something WE DO!
And so does the rest of the EU. Or else we wouldn't have a union anymore for a long time now! ;)


Germany is actually one of the very few countries in Europe who could ""go it alone"". But most of the middle sized and small countries in Europe have no global voice left outside of the EU. Especially for the smaller countries the EU is and will be most important.
Who do you think will listens to Finlands concerns and interests with Finland out alone all by itself?"
"That may be but that could give you a hint how the britisch views of Europe are actually seen in Europe.
Nobody likes a perpetual nay-sayer and foot dragger. And don't think the continent doesn't read british media and doesn't get all the vomit and spite thrown at everything EU?
That has nothing to do anymore with reasonable arguments and constructive membership but all with innerbritish pissing contests on the back of the union and hence of all members."
"Thanks for your answer. Sorry, I could not reply earlier...

Oh, I meant arbitrary as well in a different sense: at least on the continent the bounderies of the nations are often nothing more than the result of the wimps of history. It often has nothing to do with the idea of nation being a homogenous entity. You are absolutly right that national sentiments have to be taken into account. But that does not mean that you don´t bring it into question.

Thanks for the compliment. You might be right that a majority doesn´t think, that way but ""I am sure that I am not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us. (And the world will be as one...)"". There were nasty things writen in Germany about Greece, that´s right. But not being in favor of guaranteeing for depts you have no influence on making them, does not necessarily mean you have to have nationalistic sentiments.

On the one hand Germany might be better of on the other hand the vote of a German person for the EU parliament counts much less than the vote of a Finn. So not one person one vote. But you are right, that there is less fear of being dominated by the EU in Germany than in smaller countries or victims of Nazi or Soviet Imperialism. So the whole project of the EU remains a tightrope walk between more reliable cooperation and common rules on the one hand and cultural freedom on the other hand.

Of course no one should control the affairs of others. But how is the other? Regarding this as a question of ""nation"" again is rather arbitrary. Local issues should be decided on a local level and not in London, Helsinki or Berlin. National issues should be decided on a national level, European on a European and global on a global one. That´s the principle of subsidiarity. Why should ""nations"" have a special role here? Just because they had in the last 300 years? If nations want to have a common currency they should also have a common fiscal policy and therefore they have to transfere power to transnational institutions."

I happen to have a grain of sand on my person. I will happily sell it to you for only E50 billion.
"""Those who want to progress should be allowed to""

Do you really believe you can have a properly functioning democracy spread out across France, the Netherlands, Germany, Finland, Austria, Italy, Spain, etc. etc?
Will your new political union have a Finnish president and a Dutch prime minister? (How would someone in Madrid or Naples react to that?)
Or will the top jobs always go to a Frenchman and a German? (How would that go down in Vienna or Amsterdam?)
Will you have to create a presidium with all the various nationalities represented? (Wouldn't that mean a rather cumbersome form of government?)
Do you not fear separatist movements resorting to violence?"
Ditto! :)
"What puzzles me all the time is why you feel so victimized and blame all democratic deficits on the EU and mean Brussels whereas it is your own gov which treats you badly and even denies you your god given referendum?

Whom will you blame for all your own shortcomings once you left???
;)"
"That is the benefit to us leaving - we can rid ourselves of this attitude that we can blame others and we will have to look after our own and work. Also Europeans will have to find the cash to fill the hole left in their budget.
As for democratic deficits - the bribes the countries' elites receive ensures they are 'on side'. Our own eliet (Kinnock et al) are on the gravy train and so would hate a vote as their pensions would be on the line. Not rocket science. This type of policy has been used since Roman times to ensure people (or their elites) are compliant."
"A win-win situation! :)

So, what exactly is your problem? If it works that way everywhere...and of course at home too...what are you running away from....and whereto? GB, the island of happiness, equality and pure democracy? ;)"
I will not rise to your provocation about running away. Nice try, though. I personally think we would do much better outside the EU . Our youth would benefit, as would our farmers and fishermen. In general we'd be free to arrange our affairs with our natural allies and avoid this mentality that europeans have that there is no world outside the EU.
The problem is which word outside the EU ? USA are more considering the Asian Pacific area, the BRICS are not waiting for us, and the commonwealth is about old traditions and costumes...we could be disappointed about how they all will consider Britain alone....
"I lived in Poland for a long time and had a girlfriend who, when required, could do a perfect Russian accent when speaking in English.
Nothing new there."
"I don't see anything wrong with parodying any accent or dialect, as long as its not hateful or demeaning.
Leave the Meerkat alone."
I thought it was supposed to be a North African accent. None of the Eastern Europeans (mostly Poles and Russians) I know pronounce "market" as "meer-kat"....more like "marr-kit".
"It's just an accent...
Are you and the people you know actually offended by this advert? But perhaps more importantly, are you being paid to write this twaddle?"
Always struck me as inaccurate as meerkats are from the Kalahari ....
Don't be so silly.
"First of all, I find that advert absolutely hilarious, and the meerkat in question is adorable and loveable. Also, it's not a specific accent, it's pretty generic, and when was the last time you saw anyone wear a smoking jacket?
Second, caribbean accent... uhhhh Lilt? Totally tropical taste, portrays caribbean people as lazy? No complaints there no? I don't recall there being a concerted attempt to remove that from air.
What about all the constant parodying on television of Northern accents?
Another thing, I'm currently learning Japanese. You'll probably know that there are lots and lots of things I can't pronounce properly in Japanese, not least their tapped-tongue R/L sound. I find it difficult to believe I'd take any offence if someone Japanese pointed that out, even if it was in an advert on TV. It's play, it's poking fun, and it might be accent-ist, but it's definitely not racist."
Scouse, Scottish, West Country etc accents are parodied all the tme. Maybe in fact the parodying of the Eastern European accent can be seen as being inclusive in treating it in the same way as other British accents.
"hermionegingold-
Don't forget it was on behalf of his girlfriend. Some blokes will do just about anything to get laid."
"Oh ffs.
I find all the political correct lemon-sucking pursed-lippedness offensive to dog's bottoms."
I dont think this is offensive at all. Its not laughing about Eastern European people- they are meerkats for goodness sake! When I was young my Dad used to speak like Manuel from Fawlty Towers (my Dad is in fact from Barcelona) and we thought it was hilarious. He wasnt offended at all. I'm sure most Eastern European folk in this country have better things to worry about.
"Why is it offensive? I mean, the meerkat has to have some sort of accent doesn't it? If it had a geordie accent for example would that be offensive to people from Newcastle?
This sort of article just proves that someone, somewhere, will be offended by anything and everything."
"How absolutely terrible for your girlfriend to suffer such an offence to her speech, what has this country come to? No - only joking.
I like the advert."
Because it's funny. Simples!
"As advertising goes, using a pun based on a mispronounciation is pretty tame. Humour treads a fine line sometimes- is It possible for something to be ever so mildly offensive without being immediately termed racist?
Many ads play on gender stereotypes (incompetent man, ditzy woman etc) so I'm surprised that they aren't constantly hauled over the coals on CIF. As you say, Eastern Europeans make up a significant part of the population here, so surely it was inevitable?"
"No, 'they' don't. It's quite hilarious that an article about stereotyping should refer to ""eastern Europeans/Russians"" (all of them? Romanians? Latvians? Slovaks?) as one monolithic entity (would one be able to make similar assumptions about the pronunciation of ""western Europeans""?).
The advert itself is crap. It's not remotely funny, just crap. But offensive? The word is bandied about so liberally nowadays. Can we just agree the advert is crap?"
"_AT_ Peter Jones
Are you taking the piss out of the Guardian?"
"It's a fucking talking meerkat.
This article is beyond parody"
"This perfectly demonstrates that one will always find racism (real or not) if one has a predisposition to do so. If I joke about my mates Liverpool accent (which I do), does that make me a racist?
BTW Exactly what racial stereotype is being promoted here? That Eastern Europeans are meercats?"
"Meerkats speak Meerkat.: unintelligible though it may be to the English. They take great delight in sitting up straight in the company of cameras and opening their eyes really wide in order to amuse those who operate the cameras and keep their minds away from understanding their language and learning their secrets. They are expert in saying Maaa-ket like the English and find it extremely amusing.
Their accents are very distinct from those of the Eastern Europeans though they do profess profound respect for them."
Sounds like being in love has totally affected your brain, Peter, and not in a good way. (Jeez - I hope that wasn't too impolite!)
"""Why do television advertisers think it's OK to parody eastern European pronunciation?""
Firstly, on this specific occasion, the joke is the mix up between Meerkat and Market. The joke wouldn't work any other way.
Secondly, it is done for exactly the same reasons that British characters in foreign TV programmes are portrayed as plumb in mouth toffee nosed gits. This is what parody is. It is not accurate characterisation; if it was then it wouldn't be parody."
"The accent's fine (I'd taken it as a south effrican accent); the meerkats are great; but what I object to is the existence of advertisements.
Firms keep on spending fortunes trying to sell us the new products that they want to sell but never make the slightest attempt to provide the old products that we actually want to buy. I find myself leaving shops empty handed more and more."
"Mate - I don't think that the Eastern European has anything to do with mispronouncing 'Market"" - before this ad, no-one doing a cod- Polish/Russian/Bulgarian would make 'market' sound like 'meerkat'. Alexandr happens to be from Eastern Europe, and even he doesn't pronounce 'market' like 'meerkat'. It feels to me more that the accent was chosen because we, as a nation, are more aware of Eastern European voices. It seems to be a very common thing to do, to hear where someone is from and to do their accent back to them. The scots, geordies, londoners and brummies have had to put up with it for years - it's what we do. 'Och aye the noo/ Way-ay man, ah'm gannin oot mee hoose/Oi'm a fackin Lahndaner, Mayt/Boormingumm, am yaouw aw-rooigt?' I'm not saying it's right, but when that happens, it is not usually with the intention to offend, but to try and show that you have at least an consciousness of where that person is from - Bear in mind, I am from Northampton - a free cyber pat on the head to anyone who knows what the stock 'Look at me doing the accent' phrase on meeting a Northamptonian is...
The only accent I can think of that vaguely might make the two words sound similar would be something very strongly midwest US. And even then, too tenuous to make a joke out of.
Not sure this is really something to get upset about (or be paid for, to be honest). Any Mexicans out there fed up with 'Too Hot? Too Spicy?' being shouted at them? or Icelanders tired of 'Beware the Judderman', or Italians gritting their teeth and explaining why non of them would ever have a Dol Mio day? Or French ignoring anyone with 'strongerer bones' courtesy of Petit Filou?
Come on CIFers - what's your favourite sh""t accent in an advert?"
Just boycott the products and let "meerkat farces" play themselves out.
This really is woeful. Firstly, products like Lilt and Malibu have used people with very strong Caribbean accents to advertise their products for years, so it's simply incorrect to say it wouldn't be allowed on TV. Secondly, how is it specifically racist?
Seeing as nobody else has asked yet - did it occur to you to ask either of them why it is offensive?
"I share the amazement of many posters here that this article is supposed to be taken seriously.
There is a long tradition in British comedy of making fun of accents- from the German spy in ITMA through Manuel in Fawlty Towers and the terrible accents of ""Allo Allo"". Nothing new
Personally I find the advertisement extraordinarily stupid and not remotely funny. Rather like that intensely irritating dog in the Churchill ads, the only effect of the Meerkat ad on me is to ensure that I will never on principle visit the website concerned.
A more interesting article might have been to analyse the peurile and patronising nature of many adverts on TV."
"Aleksandr Orlov is the meerkat in question. It seems pretty harsh to ask for him to be banned from television just because of his accent.
What next - the creature comfort parrot banned because of his Brazilian accent?
If you want offensive stereotypical East-European accents, just listen to any Radio Four drama/comedy. They are awash with them."
"I like the advert, it's funny and is not being offensive to your girlfriend or her fellow countrymen/women/people.
What about the way Americans portray British people? The way that Americans 'do' cockney accents...I am English I don't find it offensive ...it's funny.
British people doing American accents is another example, my own speciality is a New York Soprano's type ...I have not yet been shot in the knee caps.
I think sometimes people write these articles for their two seconds of fame. I seriously think that a sense of humour is needed here and leave the meercats alone!"
"It seems to me that far too many people are just waiting to be ""offended"" by something but at least the ASA must have had a good laugh at your ridiculous complaint. It honestly never occurred to me that anyone could possibly be offended by a meerkat with an accent but I guess I must just be insensitive then.
There are plenty of adverts that irritate me as well but I just simply resolve not to make that purchase. Simples!"
"You quite simply have FAR TO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS Mr. Jones.
I find it incredible that anyone could find offense in this advert.
I grew up in Wales and have certainly never been offended when the Welsh accent, language or culture has been parodied in comedy or advertising which it has many times.
This sort of parody is so far from race hate that I'm struggling to stop my brain imploding after reading your article.
Does your calender say it's April 1st?"
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"""Why do television advertisers think it's OK to parody eastern European pronunciation?""
Why do some contributors to CiF, such as Peter Jones, think it's OK to parody well-written articles about racism?"
can Comment is Free find some one with time to write anything better that this; it can't be hard.
"I can imagine some poor soul in Afghanistan, after years of bombing and fighting all around her, has just managed to cast a vote under the threat of death for a questionable leader and an uncertain future, lacking basic healthcare, sanitation and housing, thinking to herself ""life is so terrible! In the UK they are currently showing an advert for a price comparison website where ""market"" is pronounced as ""meerkat"".
Seriously, think about it. How relaxed must your life be if this is all you have to worry about."
"This article was ghost-written by Max Gogarty .
..
Nice to see you've found a girl friend at last ,Max !!"
":-)
Well said!
I wish there was some way I could pour you a drink through my screen!"
"Well it's not a sh*t accent, the Aviva insurance one where the driver is collecting all his mates to see Plymouth Argyle and as I'm originally from Plymouth I like that he is talking in a strong Devonshire accent
There is a second Aviva advert about contents insurance ...My question is is it the same guy as in the Plymouth Argyle advert wearing a black wig and talking in a different accent..can't work it out and it is causing me anxiety.
Remember the Cif etiquette it's polite to answer questions and stop people being anxious..(at least I think that is one of the 10)"
This is the kind of article that makes me ashamed to be seen in public with a paper copy of the Guardian.
The girlfriend probably meant something another, but has not been understood because of accent.
"CordeliaM
It's Paul Whitehouse. He's pretty famous."
"I'm too consumed with embarrassment over my cracked heels and underarm stubble to spare any energy getting worked up over the meerkat advert.
_AT_CordeliaM
I think it's Paul Whitehouse."
"I just can't stop thinking about this.
This article is so stupid it makes me want to find out where Mr Jones lives and follow him around all day in a Meerkat suit and dressing gown till he admits he was being silly!
How many tens of millions of people have seen this ad and you were the only person to complain!"
Comment is farce.....on www.guardian.co.uk
"I am inclined to believe you are making this up.
I am inclined to believe, for comedic purposes, that you are offending me for lumping Lativains and Lithuanians together into an amorphous Eastern European whole.
I am inclined to believe that the editors of CiF are foolish to publish this and like others cannot believe they have.
I am inclined to believe you are employed by Richard Littlejohn in order to supply copy for his hateful Florida-based rantings."
"Anyone else feel that Mr Jones and his girlfriend should get out more.
I like Alexandr Orlov, I think he looks rather attractive in his smoking jacket and cravat and I love his accent, especially the way he says ""inshooooooorance""!"
Tis the season to be silly, tra-la la-la laaah...♫♫♪
"back when i was a naive yoof, i was indoctrinated by the wight on brigade that 'allo 'allo was racist becasue of the way it parodied the germans, french etc.
i now have a friend who loves it and continually mimics the cod german accent and sayings from the show and finds it hilarious...he's german and speaks impeccable unaccented english. i've also found french and belgians who agree (personally i still think it's a shit show).
i've had a small group of spanish people huddle round me larfing and taking the piss out of my rubbish accent and had no problem with it. i just responded with a fast show-esque 'scorchio- eth-eth-eth-eth-eth' accent.
i really can't understand the 'professionally offended' brigade or, as in this case, the even more holier-than-thou 'i'll be offended on someone else's behalf....whether they've asked me to or not'.
and i note that there's no mud been slung at those who stereotype londoners or the working class by parodyinng the accent (eg' former commie/now complete luvvie alexei sayle's 'loveable east end racist' character)."
The long Winter evenings must just fly by.
"There's nothing wrong with Alexander Orlov (Meerkat). He's got business savvy, he's motivated, self-made wealth (from his website), entrepreneurial (investing in new technology), hard working, sartorially elegant, educated (as he can read, speaks English, Russian and Meerkat) a good communicator, is media (and television aware) and knows how to market his product
In fact, Alexander is a good role model for young people throughout the U.K.
Does Alexei's worm problem get covered by the Staff Health Benefits package ?
I do hope so !!!"
"BeatonTheDonis and PorFavor
Thank you guys...I'm sorry I didn't know who you were Paul Whitehouse as you are indeed pretty famous (just in case you reading this article and the comments) but I feel so much better knowing the answer. Great accents by the way!"
"It's not just an accent - there's a whole Russian stereotype built around it.
Go to www.comparethemeerkat.com and you'll find a message from the meerkat, whose name is Aleksandr Orlov:
I am founder of comparethemeerkat.com.

There's more, and it's all based on rather lame Russian stereotypes. Is it offensive? You'd probably have to ask a Russian.
Incidentally, Alexander Orlov (slightly different spelling) was a Russian spy chief who defected to the US in 1938."
You all miss the point - this isn't about "Eastern European pronounciation". There is no "right way" to speak English with an Eastern European accent, only varying degrees of wrong ways.
"Cordelia
Yes, whatever happened to Julio Geordio, and his escapades at Twinkle's Night Club ?"
"It must be tedious to be so right on you can't laugh at anything.
lighten up----------------------you seem to be about the only person with a beef about the meerkat."
"Finding things offensive is pathetically childish.
If you think they shouldn't parody eastern European accents, then at least try to articulate why, instead of having a tantrum about it -- which is all the bleat of ""that's offensive"" equates to."
But you wouldn't be able to tell that just from the advert, and that is what Peter Jones claims his girlfriend found so offensive. A talking meerkat in a smoking jacket speaking in an eastern European accent about car insurance does not have a whole Russian stereotype built around it. At all.
"I think whoever trained that Meerkat to talk so well deserves all the praise we can muster. After all, it takes a bloody long time to get a budgie to say:
""Who's a pretty boy then?""
Your girlfirend has impossibly high standards, I'd get rid of her now if I was you.
(PS ""I'm Out"")"
"I had a quick scan of the news today, and as there is nothing else going on that is important we should all be jolly grateful that Mr Jones has embarked on a, ""Meerkat's being forced to speak in stupid accents"" consciousness raising exercise.
Well done Mr Jones!
Please keep it up. I for one will be much more sensitive to this and other such issues in the future.
Thats what this article is about, right?"
Lets just paint the whole world grey and all wear badges saying 'Don't speak to me, you offensive bigot'
FFS WHAT ABOUT THE PLYMOUTH ARGYLE SUPPORTER?
Has anyone tried to find out if any meerkats were offended?
"Write your own profile, did you?
Grammar?
Simples."
"""on the word ""market"" – a word that eastern Europeans/Russians pronounce ""meerkat""""
Well, no, I think you'll find that Russians pronounce it ""rynok"" and I think Ukrainians do too.
But then I'm just someone who lived over there for a number of years so what do I know?
Oh, other than the fact that everyone over there falls about laughing at the old Brezhnev accent: sort of an ""how did someone with this ignorant hick accent ever gain power?"" thing.
In fact, Russians (I know not about East Europeans) rather like jokes that depend upon accents and regional stereotypes. But then what would you know about that Mr Jones? You're just watching TV with a Slav rather than actually going to see how they live."
"""Why do television advertisers think it's OK to parody eastern European pronunciation?""
Because they're idiots creating messages for other idiots."
"If I am offended by the banal stupidity of Guardian articles like this, whom should I complain to?? Is there a Press Standards Association? Thought not...
BrianWhit: A small brownie point for sticking up for a mate, even when you're forced to try and defend the indefensible. Zero points for arguments, though.
Really, when you read crap like this article, it's no wonder the Observer is going down the toilet. And if they're not careful, the Gruniad will be following it.
Simples..."
"Not a Ukrainian then, who I am inclined to believe would be offended if you referred to them as Russian?
Fairplay for defending your contributers Brian but why does CiF publish material that is nothing but an invitation to dismiss SERIOUS attempts to fight REAL prejudice as the rantings of people who are looking for offence where there really is none.
Were Alex the Meerkat portrayed as a corrupt mafia tycoon and his meerkat pals were chained and working away for no money because their families are under threat, I would think it might possibly be an offensive stereotype. It is not."
"bobdoney
22 Aug 09, 4:27pm (4 minutes ago)
FFS WHAT ABOUT THE PLYMOUTH ARGYLE SUPPORTER?
It's OK bobdoney, it is Paul Whitehouse..does caplocks mean you are shouting?"
"mr jones-
i suggest that if you are offended that you contact the animal liberation front and get them to send some dreadlocked trusties to free all the meerkats from the battery farm where they are being so cruelly forced to speak in a cod east european accent.
the alf soap-dodgers will rescue and rehouse them and force the poor fuckers to eat tofu. (now that is cruel!)"
"CordeliaM

No, just breathing a bit heavy. HT to you for your earlier mention of the Argyle."
"BTW, a significant part of the UK population already uses a variant of the word 'market' that is similar to that found in the adverts. Unfortunately this medum can't convey the pronunciation, but see here
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/kist/search/display.php?sblk68.dat"
"what is it today with this and the Bindel garbage then we had Germaine bloody Greer rubish yesterday.
Are the editors on holiday or something? get your standards back up please."
"BrianWhit

Some people might call it parody with a .loose historical basis. People with such a viewpoint are often said to possess something called a 'sense of humour'. Perhaps you might consider developing one?"
"Hmmm. . . not sure Peter Jones isn't taking the mickey here, or is doing some bollocks 'viral advertising' to get people discussing a piss-poor advert.
In the event that you're being sincere, Peter, If an Eastern European ad took the piss out of the British ,would you find it offensive? If so, I'd suggest you might be a little over-sensitive. If not , why should you worry about another countrys' reaction? Are East Europeans deficient in some way that British people aren't? Do they need to be protected from mickey-taking Brits?
If your Ukranian girlfriend imitated your accent in a funny way, would you chastise her for cultural insensitivity? Or would you have a big laugh with the daft racist*.
*Copyright Mr A. Partridge"
"I enyoed the ad but Im not racist.
Some of my best friends are meerkats"
"I still can't stop posting...
I feel like a kid on a beach poking a jellyfish with a stick.
guardian.co.uk is one of the most visited news sites on the planet.
I just can't believe that given the enviable soap box of CIF, to express your views from and with all the hate and racism and suffering in the world, you know ""actual bad things"" you chose this as your topic.
And relax..."
"It is in fact based on an incredibly specific stereotype.
After the Russian revolutions and civil war, a lot of White Russians ended up settling in Europe (Paris was a favourite haunt). The stereotype is a former Russian nobleman wandering around a house with no servants in a smoking jacket convinced that the revolution will soon be over and he'll be welcomed back with open arms.
There is one driving a taxi in one of Orwells books.
Here is a link as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_%C3%A9migr%C3%A9
No, they are not mocking your girlfriend Peter.
And yes, the article is stupid."
"Dear Mr Jones, Mr Whit and Dr Zoidberg --
I'M SORRY THAT YOUR RESPECTIVE PARTNERS ARE NOT GIVING YOU SUFFICIENT BLOWJOBS, BUT THAT'S REALLY NO REASON TO TAKE THINGS OUT ON US."
"I think it's time for a drink, it's all getting too emotional for me..It's 4.55 here in the UK which means it must be almost 6pm elsewhere (I try to work on the principle of not drinking before 6pm..but I guess its always 6pm somewhere).
Not sure if I'll be back to see how the saga of the meercats is progressing. Alexander Meercat have a nice glass of wodka, ice and lemon....."
"Is any on the left ever wonder why you have a reputation as joyless, life hating, misanthropes, I refer you to the above.
Peter; get a fucking life man."
If there were an award for manufacturing offence from the most unlikely ingredients, Peter Jones would walk it. Still, you must be a very happy man, Peter, if this is the kind of trivia you have time to take such determined exception to. Do you have no greater concerns?
Shouldn't a column this petty, pointless and po-faced have been reserved for CiF's 'Anything Goes Friday'?
"EdmundBerk,

Here's the description of Peter Jones:

There is nothing in the description let alone the article to describe the above author as ""on the left"". In fact, if we were to make assumptions, it would seem more likely that someone ""work[ing] in the financial sector"" would probably disavow left-wing thought.
Furthermore, almost unanimously commenters have rejected this article as a little silly.
Yet you conclude somehow that this reaffirms your cliched and wrong view of 'the left'. Goodness."
I am sorry your girlfriend is unheppy.
"The only reason I find this advert offensive is because I find all advertising offensive, and I mean seriously, obscenely offensive. Advertising is the intrusive and ugly face of the unrestrained free market consumer society.
Advertising is an industry based on deception. 'A Mars a day heals you work, rest and play and fills our coffers all day.'
There is a virgin market out there for advertisers in the wild. It would save Eagles a whole lot of aggro if 'Food in the Wild inc.' were advertising on the eagle channel, 'New improved Meercat, now with less fur and more meat. Buy one get one free, while stocks last. Food in the Wild inc can not be held responsible if this product attempts to escape and cannot offer refunds if a jackal steal your prey.'
Edward Bernays has so much to answer for."
"Anyone English thinking of saying, ': ""I don't like this advert, it is very offensive to me' when they see this ad?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03K1-DLmQQ0"
PS: Did you all know that Timon the meerkat in The Lion King is gay?
"There's wine on my laptop screen now!
But stop that at once you, or he might get a follow up article on ""Why do CIF comment posters think it's OK to parody eastern European pronunciation?"""
"What a ridiculous waste of time to write about a harmless characterisation just because it's non-English - must all characterisations be English!!!
Peter Jones, have you not got anything more important to write about???
When journalism is scaled-down due to decreasing profits from printed news and the changes ahead with online news, then we will hopefully have less journalists writing pointless stories as a result!"
"I never liked The Clangers for the same reason.
Their Moon accents were just so offensive."
"Given my mildly hedgehog obsessed tip on the etiket thread yesterday, I am now very concerned.
The Russian for 'her hedgehog', phonetically, is ye yo yozh.
I am now worried that yoyos are racist. Please help me..."
"Actually I think I've been a bit unfair, I've read it again and I think he's won me over.
I'm off out now to get to HMV before it closes to burn all the ""Allo Allo,"" ""Fast Show,"" ""Faulty Towers"" and ""Pink Panther"" DVDs
Who's with me??"
"My favourite ad too!
Eastern Europeans don't constitute a different race to Brits.
Meerkats do. SIMPLES!
What exactly is the percentage of dumb-assed creatures, human or otherwise, having a regular english accent in TV ads? How many complaints are being filed by the english?
DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND FEEL ASHAMED, VERY ASHAMED!
I hope this will forever clear the myth of the Germans are the ones without a sense of humour.
Well done to ITV for flushing out hypocrite spoilsport morons!
Well done to the Guardian for reinforcing the silly season!"
"I work with 3 people from Eastern European countries. They speak just like the meerkat.
What's the problem, peeps?"
I never heard a E European pronounce it like that. They normally say something like marrkyet
I feel sorry for the bloke at the ASA who took your phone call. That job must suck when idiots like you call up. Also, how did that conversation go? Did you say " Hi my name's Peter and my girlfriend is offended by an advert, you know the one with the meerkat that compares the market?" .... I think you should move to Russia very quickly.
"I think someone who finds ALL advertising to be 'seriously, obscenely offensive' has redefined the definition of what these words mean. You must be the most easily offended person on the planet. (After Peter Jones of course).

I hope so. I know the recent etiquette threads have suggested certain standards, but it's hard to sum this article up without reducing the points to blunt, offensive abuse. This article is the worst I have ever read on CIF by some distance. Truly, utterly pathetic."
"Keo2008

God i detest that bloody dog - no way i'd even consider buying their product. As far as the meerkat ad is concerned - its a bit silly and not very funny but calling it offensive to parody an accent in the way it does is a bit of a stretch. But then some people see offence everywhere.
besidethesea

Yes."
"I am guessing Peter Jones had to complain because of conjugales.
It's the only explanation for such a half-witted, lemon-sucking article."
"I hope people realise the Left just isn't going to stop.
Never dismiss articles like this because a great many of these people control vast swathes of the media and public sector. This perverted and sickening 'liberal fascism' is no less of a threat to our traditions than Islamism or socialism.

It would be better if she went home if she is that sensitive."
"You should have seen the adverts on Czech TV for Budvar beer - two fat bald englishmen speaking in a cockney accent on sunloungers and leering at passing girls.
The depressing thing is that is how they see us now (post-stag group era).
I don't think my Czech girlfriend complained on my behalf though."
"Meanwhile, Richard Littlejohn wipes himself down as he slowly recovers from his favourite private daydream; the one where he's gang-raped in a public toilet by a trio of swarthy gypsy lads. But what to write for this weeks' feature?
The deadline's approaching, and Richards' loyal following of apocalyptically dense bastards need their worldview reinforced. Richard reaches for the Guardian and there it is; ""Shite advert is offensive to foreigners.""
Richard offers up a little prayer of thanks to the Guardian. They never let him down. He lives in fear of the Guardian one day developing a sense of humour or perspective on issues, such as people have in the real world. That's the day he'll be forced to work a little harder at his own particular brand of journalistic silage. Until then, the hateful puss-bucket just has to slap ""you couldn't make it up"" on the end of his column, because as long as articles like this keep appearing in the Guardian, he doesn't have to."
Pure Guardian gold. It's articles like this, or more specifically the below the line feeding frenzy following them that I love.
"_AT_frothing:

The left? What's wrong with you people? Where do you get the fucking idea from that Peter Jones - someone who works in the financial sector - in on the left? Unless he is a well-known leftie and it has somehow passed me by, all I can see is a one off silly article about an advert with absolutely nothing to indicate left-wing thought, politics, philosophy, or anything else. Don't project your own fantasies onto something that doesn't make any sense.
Hardly anyone, as far as I can see, has taken this article seriously; left-wing, right-wing or any-other-wing."
i assume his girlfriend goes home during the summer break and tells her family that the english are a jolly unassuming easy going bunch, but the joneses, dear me!
"Why do television advertisers think it's OK to parody eastern European pronunciation?
Perhaps it's because they think they have a sense of humour?
To be honest this hadn't even crossed my mind when watching this advert.
Do you actively look for things to offend you?
Or do you think there's anyone out there who goes- 'Hey hunny! They've got that we-hate-eastern-europeans meerkat ad on again, it makes me want to find an eastern european and beat him up good and proper'...?"
"Er doesn't the meerkat in the ad say ""market"" when he means ""market""?
Where does he say ""meerkat"" when he means ""market""?
Simples."
To apportion blame to gain fame in the Ukraine will never be the same!
ah pahleeeeeeeez - name me one accent that has not been parodied. it's the beauty of Eeeengahlish Peeetah!
I passed him in the traffic the other day - he was definitely on the left.
"*Consults you tube*
You are absolutely right!
The meerkat actually pronounces ""market"" correctly a couple of times. In the add he points out that people have been mistakenly going to his meerkat comparison site in error.
Which makes the whole article even more stupid and pointless than I had previously realised and I thought it was pretty stupid before!"
"Fortunately these poor downtrodden peasants have you as their hero to fight back, eh Peter?
Now get real please. The advert is not 'targeting' East Europeans. It's targeting people who want to compare the markets, or do you seriously believe the advert was made with the sole intention of upsetting your East Europeans and any pretense to being a market comparison website is merely a cunning cover?
Honestly. As others have said, beyond parody."
Hope you got your end away after all that pathetic busybodying.
"""The sole point of this African animal's appearance is, it seems, to highlight the idea that east Europeans cannot pronounce the word market properly when they speak English.""
Here is my counter theory: the sole point of the African animal's appearance is to create awareness of the comparethemarket.com website.
I suppose Peter Jones' girlfriend has not noticed that the meerkat in question may speak with an Eastern European accent but seems to be very well-educated, to have done very well for himself (presumably through hard work rather than inheritance) and seems to have an admirable attention to detail, being frustrated at the apparent linguistic and reading shortcomings of the (presumably British) users of comparethemarket.com. Hardworking, industrious and well mannered with an attention to detail - like most of the eastern Europeans I have met in the UK. Hardly a negative stereotype!
I suspect Peter Jones is in fact having us all on. Good one! Had me going for a minute."
"harrumph!
Yet another Yank-bashing diatriabe, showing yet again that in sharp contrast to their overworked, vacationless, exploited American cousins the British better classes have lots and lots and lots of spare time on their hands....."
I wonder, in an idle moment, how frequently the average Eastern European/Russian uses the word "meerkat" at all. Should the character not have a South African accent ?
....I wouldn't touch that issue with a ten foot Pole.......
"I also wonder, in idle moments, what accents may feature on Ukranian TV ?
In my experience, admittedly limited, most countries have an accent/region that they find ""amusing. East Friesland to the Germans, for example."
"Yeah mate, you're right; the makers of this advert scoured the country's zoos till they found a meerkat willing and able to offend your girlfriend.
This article made me very cross.
Grow up, both of you."
"Wouldn't it be funny if they pronounced the word ""Meerkat"" as ""market""
Can somebody grab an Eastern European friend and check?"
Fortunately, the American accent is always treated with nuance and fairness in the U.K. media.
"Are you actually bloody serious!
i couldn't contain the combination of amusement and anger that over came me when i read this spectacularly cretinous ""article"".

my girlfriend, who is Ukrainian, turned to me and said: ""I don't like this advert, it is very offensive to me.""
then i am afraid that is your girlfriends problem, not compare the markets.
It struck me how racist it was to parody what is now a significant part of the British population in this way.
Why? surely ""racism"" refers to some kind of prejudice or ignorance.
Eastern Europeans DO mis pronounce words (as do most foriegniers) and it can be amusing. why cant we simply accept this?
i loathe this pathetic modern culture of offense. if some one makes a joke at your expense, don't be such a bloody European and have a laugh.
it said it had not had any other complaints.
I asked my girlfriend why that might be. She told me that people from eastern Europe were brought up in a society where it was not normal to complain, especially to such sectors as the government and the media.
it could however be that most eastern European immigrants have not shacked up with lefty guardian readers, and therefore are not under the impression that an uber-PC attitude of offense and entitlement is a normal way to behave.

the evidence shows that they have only learned who not to offend, not how not to offend
perhaps some one can explain the problem with this.
while the left constantly re defines what is meant to be offensive, i have never quite been able to grasp the basic guardian mantra of ""this offends me, therefore you should not be aloud to say it"""
"ah Roger - you must have heard about the Olympic athlete who arrived in Beijing carrying a 4 metre pole.
Chines immigration offcer:
""Are you a pole vaulter?""
""No. Ahctually I am Chermain but how do you know my name?"""
"Offensive to both Ukranians and Latvians and yet born in Russia ?
Isn't that rather like someone born in, say , Ealing, taking offence at a talking Polecat with a Geordie accent ?"
"Personally, I find it offensive that a British Meerkat has been deprived of the role in favour of a cheaper immigrant actor.
No wonder the country is in the state it is in , where will it end ? I understand Churchill is to be replaced with a Borzoi next year.
Only the BMP ( British Meerkat Party) can stop the unremiting tide of filth."
Sorry to upset you Olching but this is a branch of 'social' Lib/Left thinking thats quite real. Some these uber-PC fanatics have real power. So yes, it is a 'lefty' thing although i know im being a bit crude.
The advert is not mocking the meerkat's pronunciation of 'market' - the whole point of the joke is that he specifically and carefully differentiates between 'market' and 'meerkat' throughout. The point is that people searching for insurance online either mistype of misread the web address and end up on his site by mistake. It is the viewers/visitors NOT the meerkats who are making the error.
Not only does the meerkat have a Russian accent but he looks like Vladimir Putin.
"Well, frothing (and unreconstructedchap), I'm afraid you are merely projecting your own unsubstantiated fantasies. Nothing in the article, nor in the description of the author indicates anything 'left-wing' (if anything, on the contrary, as he works in the financial sector).
The above article is piss poor, useless, and sad. But there is nothing 'left-wing' about it.
You and other fantasists people are even sadder than Peter Jones' article."
I wonder if Peter Jones will be venturing below the line to respond to any of these comments...
I'd just love to be a fly on the wall when he logs back in to check his comments
Why do you have to spoil things. I thought meerkats really spoke like that.
"""..... my girlfriend, who is Ukrainian, turned to me and said: ""I don't like this advert, it is very offensive to me.""
If there is another series of Lead Balloon, pleeeaaase let the fabulously perennially unamused Magda turn to Jack Dee and utter these words.........."
An equally valid question would be why television advertising should be legal in the first place. It is, after all, the principal engine behind consumerism and the corresponding generation of greenhouse gases.
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"Oh dear. I hadn't even realised the meerkat was supposed to be Eastern European, let alone Russian. I just had it down as ""generic foreign accent"".
If the meerkat was very stupid, or very lazy, then it might be offensive. But in the end, it's just a meerkat with a foreign accent, the whole thing having been cooked up so that the advertisers can make a joke about the supposed similarity in pronunciation between market and meerkat. And it works, doesn't it? Everyone remembers the ad, whereas no-one would remember an ad that went ""Comparethemarket.com - it's really great.""
Like others, I can't help thinking that Peter Jones is probably an employee of comparethemarket's advertising agency..."
"I don't know about that, I bet not everyone goes ""Top 5 most Commented"" with their first article, especially not in less than 5 hours.
He's been getting a post every 100 seconds or so all afternoon, although the fact that 99.99999% of them are calling him an idiot might take a bit of the shine of his achievement."
"Peter Jones, when your girlfriend said ""I am very offended by this"" you could always have told her that in the UK, we try to laugh at ourselves both as a way of disseminating tension in many situations and to prevent ourselves becoming too po-faced. It seems to work since the UK is something of a hotbed for comedy and stand-up.
I work with two Polish women both of whom have a wicked sense of humour. They often have me laughing like a drain."
"God, are people really that thin-skinned?
As a Brit living in Sweden, I hear all sorts of ads in Swedish using mock-British accents. I don't feel victimised - in fact, it's quite nice that someone's noticed we're here.
Why should Poles in Britain feel any differently? As long as the ad isn't implying that they're somehow morally inferior or something, why get upset?"
"Guardiantastic.
BTW, at your age try something like partner. Girlfriend sounds a bit creepy."
"Oh dear, oh dear.
I can't help thinking that this article is a bit of mischief making by the good burghers of CiF to test how well we abide by the debating rules which ""we"" agreed on only a couple of days ago.
Especially this one:

Looks like we've failed the test - although, in mitigation, there was enormous provocation here.
At least, I hope this was a mischievous test. The idea that such ridiculous twaddle would be published in all seriousness in a newspaper like the Guardian - well it doesn't bear thinking about."
"The more I think about it the more I agree with WheatFromChaff, this just cannot be real. Especially when you realise that if you actually watch the ad, the meerkat in question does pronounce ""market"" correctly a quite a few times... he never says ""meerkat"" when he means to say ""market"" even once.
This is a wind up"
"There used to be something called 'the silly season' but in the Guardian that seems to have been extended into a a general principle based on tetchy neurotics hunting frantically around for just anything to be offended by.
The Meerat ad is stupid-as most adverts are because all of them depend on manufacturing stereotypes in some way or another.

The advertisement centres on the word ""market"" – a word that eastern Europeans/Russians pronounce ""meerkat"" – using talking CGI-animated meerkats.
If I wanted to be petty I could point out that many Poles would be offended at being stereotyped as hardly different from the Russians or, for that matter classified as ""Eastern European"".
Most Poles consider themselves Central European and believe that Eastern Europe starts East of Poland in Ukraine or down in Romania where they don't say 'meerkat' for market.

No, it just isn't 'racist' to parody pronunciation. If it were I am a pathological racist as part of my job, what Poles in Krakow pay me for, is to imitate their mistakes and correct their pronunciation.
Foreigners sound funny when they speak English. I sound funny and have been laughed at for mispronouncing words like career ( zawod )with a similar word without the vowel which means 'erection'.
I've also been laughed at by Poles for confusing 'head' with shit' as when I tried to explain why I could drink a bottle of vodka. ( glowa/gowno )
Furthermore Poles don't actually say 'meerkat' but something like 'mahrrket' just as they prefer to say 'cheepairrr' instead of 'cheepa' because 'cheepa' sounds like the Polish word for cunt.

It would be considered strange these days as most descendents of migrants do not speak with a strong accent unlike most 'Eastern Europeans'.
Yet another irony is that the worst snobs when it comes to laughing at other people's pronunciation is the Poles, especially at one another but also at that of others trying to learn English.
Perhaps Mr Jones wife is one of those 'Eastern Europeans' who either has an inferiority complex, no sense of humour or is one of those who wants to eradicate all signs of their previous identity.
There really are people from the East of Europe who feel that way. They believe that unlike the funny dark foreigners they can really be more British or as British as anyone else.
Nothing is more tedious than getting death stares from a Polish barmaid when I start chatting in my average Polish to them. Or getting the reaction 'I don't want to talk about Poland'.
As for Mr Jones' Ukrainian girlfriend ( anybody remember Alan Partridge's ? ) suggesting that ""people from eastern Europe were brought up in a society where it was not normal to complain"", that's just untrue.
Some Poles spend inordinate amounts of time whinging and indulging in a Turkish steam bath of self pity about how 'biedny' they are and how absolutely nobody from abroad could possible understand their suffering.

Most of them probably just do not care, not least about the pronunciation of 'meerket' which is confined to Russian and Ukrainian speakers who just aren't in 'significant numbers' in Britain.
Making this article factually flawed as well as petty, misconceived, and entirely pointless, though incredibly amusing and laughable at the same time, even if was wholly unintended."
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
There is nothing so simple and amusing that some humourless pratt can't make a song and dance about.
Peter, do you have the faintest idea just how many nails you have hammered into the coffin of the decent principles underlying PC with this piece?
Do us all a favour and either wake up or grow up."
"In the drunken depths of a thread on eastern european meerkats - there is no way out - you must comment - you must say what is right - if only you knew - there is a moral struggle occuring far away from here we must address.
We love meerkats - they make us smile - if only...
why do you even bother? why not give yourself to the stars..... I only hope the meerkats find out - you uuuuuubastards fuckingmeerkatswankers...s iiisooooohh dearey me.
this, in sum, is what this thread deserves"
"I didn't even know it was supposed to an Eastern European accent. Do they have Meerkats in Eastern Europe?
I love your girlfriends explanation of the lack of complaints from the downtrodden masses;

Are you sure she wasn't just impersonating a typical patronising British left-winger, because she does a great impression of one. Or maybe she's just lived here too long - with you."
"first i was going to scream ..then quote simon munnerys..""sometimes i get so depressed with life and my inability to change it that i stop reading the guardian for a few days""
then i thought no..i am offended by this article..it presumes i am an imbecile..i now want to officially complain could a moderator on this site please advise me how to do this ?"
"Have been following this thread with interest, and have decided to play devil's advocate. Not for Peter - he is a buffoon for writing this - but for his G/F
What is it in the advert that is offensive, or could be construed as such?
Is the accent done badly? Well, she is Ukrainian, and perhaps less in a position to comment than a Russian, but I have certainly heard worse attempts at Russian accents on British TV
Is there something inherently offensive in eastern europe about meerkats, that you would not want your speech patterns associated with it? In which case that is something the advertisers cannot be to blame for, as in British culture, I would be very surprised to find anyone who did not regard meerkats as cute, interesting, admirable for their family structure, intelligent and charming.
Is there something inherently offensive in how Alexandr is portrayed? As others have said, he seems to be wealthy, intelligent, charming, able to stand up for himself, able to present a reasoned argument.
Is it inherently offensive to suggest that Eastern Europeans have difficulty with English? Perhaps, but the ad makes very clear that Alexandr has no problem with differentiating between market and meerkat - if anything the confusion seems to lie with the english speakers who are googling. And Alexandr's English is fluent and largely grammatically correct. He has a recognisably EFL accent, but english is not his native language, so what else would he have?
Is the advert indicative of a sudden trend of mocking Eastern Europeans? Is the UK laughing at those funny foreigners who have joined us in the EU, bringing with them such stereotypical attributes as hard work, charm, and food and drink that brits find hard to pronounce? Certainly, Eastern European characters are thicker on the ground than they were, reflecting the higher profile and greater experience of them that Brits have these days - but generally, those portrayals seem to have more positive features than negative - dry wit, practicality, hard work, intuition.
It still remains that PJ has not told us what it is about the ad that A Ukrainian and A latvian have found offensive - until he does, or she writes an article, the offensive nature of the ad is obscure. But it also remains that it is HER sense of offence - not his. He says that he thought nothing of the ad when he first saw it - seeing nothing in it that a Brit could construe as offensive. But he has taken the cudgels up on her behalf - Gentlemanly or patronising? And is it JUST eastern Europeans, or anyone putting on a non-English speaking accent?
I can think of no-one more in need of Brendon Burns' 'So I suppose this is offensive now'.
He can watch it instead of 'Walk on the Wild Side'. Or 'The Harry and Paul Show'. Or 'Lead Balloon'. Or 'Alan Partridge'. Or 'The Fast Show'. Or 'Blackadder'. Or 'The League of Gentlemen'.
Or most of his Disney collection.
Or Pixar.
Or anything Bond-y.
BTW - this has been the straw that broke the camel's back. Subscription cancelled. Bored of paying for non-news articles. Boyfriend pays for the broadband. Tee-hee!"
"What is an ""East European"" accent? I didn't realise there was one. I have Polish friends and they definitely don't talk like the Meerkat...
As for parodies in adverts, this one always makes me cringe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvNrJk0Z2-A"
"Eastern Europeans?
Damn! I thought the ad was sending up Geordies."
"Peter Jones:
Please resign immediately and do something more useful with your time!"
"The reason that no one else has lodged a complaint could be that Eastern Europeans don't find it offensive. I didn't even think it was supposed to be an Eastern European accent, rather a generic ""funny foreigner"" accent.
In any case, what the hell is an ""Eastern European"" accent? The accents of Russians, Hungarians, Czechs, Romanians, and Lithuanians vary so vastly that you can't lump them in together. You can't have a ""Western European"" accent representative of Britain, France, Spain and Germany, can you?
Stop moaning."
"_AT_olching; I'm not sure what your point is re Peter Jones? How does working in the city make him not 'left wing'?
The left - at least as represented by the guardian - is absolutely the creed of wealthy young narcissists."
"This doesn't get better on a second reading;
""It looks as though those from eastern Europe are going to have the same fight on their hands as people from India and the Caribbean did all those years ago.""
Get a fucking grip you grievance seeking ninny."
"_AT_sparerib
I am sorry your girlfriend is unheppy.
Damn you, you made me spray tea out of my nose. Consider my hat well and truly doffed.
Embarrassing confession - at first I thought it was a spelling mistake. (Clears throat, slinks off.)"
What she actually said was, "For the last time, I'm not your girlfriend. I just clean your house for £5.80 an hour."
"So you thought that writing this article would be well recieved on cif?
With people of your calibre working in financial services it's not suprising that we are where we are is it."
"Peter Jones is as stupid as Sergei the IT Manager.
Simples!"
"I assume most posters here are ""white"" or ""western European"". They would not understand how a foreigner would feel about this kind of advert.
I understand why some eastern europeans people would not laught at this ad.
There is an exotic animal portraying them and making fun of their accent.
It's bloody disturbing"
A lack of creativity and genuine talent on the part of advertising agencies Peter. Its as simple as that.
"olching

Well, frothing (and unreconstructedchap), I'm afraid you are merely projecting your own unsubstantiated fantasies. Nothing in the article, nor in the description of the author indicates anything 'left-wing'
whether or not you personally agree, it is generally accepted that easily taking offense, dictating to others what they may or may not say and holding the belief that it is the end of world if someone is offended are characteristics of the left."
have just realised that the most unfortunate thing about this piece is that it perpetuates the stereotype of East Europeans as dour and humourless.
"I love CiF. Only read a few of the comments so far, but so many posters have a great sense of humour, very funny comments. This slow night ahead may turn out to be more fun.
HannahWright? 7:28pm

I don't see why - my mum speaks like that and really does believe that you should put a bit more effort into cooking rice. She's probably right - but it is funny."
"EdmundBerk:
My point is that you ascribe a pisspoor article to some mythical construct 'The Left' (never defined, but merely used as a polemic device with which to beat all left-wing thought and politics) even though there is no hint of left-wing politics (and please decide whether you are currently ranting against the constructs of 'The Left', 'The loony left', 'The Liberal-Left' (my favourite invention) or any other meaningless tag).

It sounds interesting, but on second inspection in means nothing. All you are doing here (as I've already said) is projecting all your fantasies onto one giant idea. It's neither an argument, a fact, or an observation. It is merely hogwash that exists in your head.
The use of this article with which to beat left-wing thought (even though no leftist is defending the crap article here, including me) is the lowest lumpen-level; not someone who boasts the name you do should engage in."
"_AT_Soledad3000;
troll on."
"unreconstructedchap,
no it isn't. It has nothing to do with left-wing and all to do with being idiotically offence-sensitive. You do not understand left-wing if you mistake the above for left-wing. What have any social democratic values to do with taking offence? None. I remember a bunch of right-wing countrysiders taking offence at the hunting ban...so I suppose they must be all left-wing even though 98% of them vote Tory.
I remember the Daily Heil orchestrating a campaign of offence when Brand and Ross pulled off their little stunt...yes, that famous left-wing newspaper representing those famous left-wing middle and little Englanders.
I also remember countless other 'offence' campaigns by the Daily Mail...ergo it must be a left-wing paper...oh weally?!?!"
"_AT_olching;
Yes Olching, it's my fantasy that this article appears in the Guardian (and could appear nowhere else), it's my fantasy that sections of the left have a long history of sponsoring identity politics, and ridiculous over sensitivity on such matters.
And as for the guardinista left being the creed of wealthy narcissists, and that meaning nothing... well the entire canon of CiF, the paper generally, the uniform social background of it's writers... well these must also be products of my imagination also.
Thanks for bringing me back to reality; you can always rely on that from a man who believes that working in financial services precludes one from holding left wing views."
"If Eastern Europeans aren't happy with 'meerkat forces' they can try going back to living under Communist dictatorships.
Peter, you remember that Stasi bloke in the movie The Lives of Others who demotes his colleague just for cracking a joke?
That's you that is."
"""What is an ""East European"" accent? I didn't realise there was one. I have Polish friends and they definitely don't talk like the Meerkat...""
By a strange coincidence I have many Meerkat friends and they don't talk like Poles either. More of an Hungarian twang.
I would like to broaden the objections. I object to...
Speedy Gonzales
Pepe Le Pew
Inspector Clouseau
and pratically all of Monty Python and his flying circuses.
To whom should I complain ?"
"Peter Jones do you consider yourself politically ""left of centre"" or ""right of centre"" or just ""centre""?
It seems to be a matter of great importance to some people.
Personally I just think you're a bit of a prat."
"_AT_olching; it's rather ridiculous to compare this to the hunting ban isn't? All those people getting their teeth walloped out by the bizzies (kettling being reserved for the children of the guardian / bbc establishment) were the rural working class, whose livliehood labour's urban middle class apparatchiks were taking away, and rural middle and upper class people whose communities and personal freedoms were being damaged by the same.
I'm not sure this compares to taking offence at a funny tv advert.
Honestly, how you can argue the left has no form in this area is beyond belief."
I think he's making up the girlfriend; what he really has is a mere pussy.
"Ok, edmundberk, then let's take Ross and Brand...was this a left-wing offence campaign? Because that's the biggest one I can remember (and please don't pretend it has more merit than anything else...it was utterly ridiculous)...
Yes, Piratewin, that about sums him up...not 'The Left' or anything else..."
"I totally agree!
I was sitting with my good friend Mario the other day when the advert for Dolmio's pasta sauce appeared on television, He ended up smashing my flat up in a humiliated rage!"
"Now this is insulting.
Still makes me grin though, humour overides offence. Not that I'd ever tell anyone else how to feel."
"_AT_olching;
Right, so if someone left messages on your grandad's answering machine taunting him about shagging his grandaughter, you'd think that was indistinguishable from the meerkat advert? mental.
You seem very sensitive about this; i've no real desire for sidetracking people from the business of giving this chap a good 'gogarty-ing' so to speak, but this is but the extreme edge of a mindset that has been responsible for so much censorious nannying, and that's worth pointing out. Especially as it seems, some are still in denial over it, despite recognising the barminess of this example."
"Such as the man on his bike behind a bus saying ""Aw mon, is to-tal gridlock""
Can remember the alcohol they were advertising, but , , ,"
"To be perfectly honest I can see Conservative central office, the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats searching furiously through their membership database at this very moment - mouse pointers poised above the ""delete"" option.
No one is going to claim Peter as one of their own - even the BNP would be embarrassed and they have notoriously low standards."
I want Steptoe and Son banned. I feel offended by an Irish actor parodying my accent.
"EdmundBerk,
But it wasn't Andrew Sachs who took offence, it was the little Englanders from the Daily Mail who took offence...so 100s of 1,000s of (not left-wing) Little Englanders took offence at something at which the person it was directed at didn't. That's mental. Does that make Little Englanders left-wing? Is that according to Marx, Adorno, or Bourdieu?"
"MrSilver, I salute you, I very nearly ended up with beer on my screen! Been thinking about PJ's reaction reading this for about the last half hour of unremitting, unanimous rejection of his central point(s). From this site, of all places, I mean if it was going to get a good review, this would be the place.
Peter, if you are reading this, well done for getting a writing slot, but take this as a life lesson in actually knowing what you're doing. And don't top yourself just yet, it will get better once you gain a sense of humour.
As for accents, how about the excellent Pot Noodle ads, or the one Paul Whitehouse is doing at the moment with the Welsh goth - I love em and I'm honorary Welsh (and an ex-goth). And I love the meerkat ad.
The only thing I'm offended by here is the throwaway assumption at the end of the article that the meerkat ad means there is racism towards Eastern European or Russian people on a par with that suffered by non-white people. Errrrr, I don't think so.
So either this is a total windup, or well, this is the best thread I've read in ages anyway, so who cares?"
"Peter, in a- Lord knows why - attempt to treat your complaint seriously'
does it not occur that perhaps the humour of the advert is based principley on a) meerkats - who are just (too many people) funny and b) the absurd, ahem, comic juxtaposition of 'comparing' a species that to all but the most trained eye, are identical.
And that the device of the accent, and from there the 'character' of the meerkat in the ad, is a secondary thing, required to make the market / meerkat connection.
Just a thought."
"Oh yes, DunnyBoy, thanks for jogging my memory...what about those who wanted Life of Brian or Springer's Jesus opera (whatever it was called) banned? Left-wingers? Must have been, because EdmundBerk tells us so!
It's simple, EdmundB, some people are more sensitive than others when it suits their agenda...I can see I tapped into your own little Englander ideology (because you appear to have thought Ross-Brand was offensive)...so here's a present from me to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7IHJ66wj9g"
This place will look like a minefield tomorrow morning after the clean-up :0)
Ah, ah, I get it, he's from West London, therein lies the problem!
"You cannot be racist against white people no matter what you say. Victims of racism can only be ethnic minorities who are non white..... seems to be the prevailing attitude at the moment
The amount of stereotypes against Russian/East Europeans is very much. They are mail order brides, prostitutes, all the men are drunk.
It's absolutely terrible. The Russians are one of the most intelligent, practical, philosophical nations on earth. Just the current economic situation not too good etc-- which itself was wreaked on it by a vengeful west.
Read Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Pushkin, Bulgakov, Gogol, Solzhenitsyn etc before you start bandying around lazy stereotypes.
And even on a state/political level, heads of state and analysts from various policy groups and NATO etc are always stoking up fear of the Russian bear. That is worse than these types of petty things."
"But you would?
This meerkat had to have an accent, and it's not the fact that it happens to be an eastern European one that is the issue. If he'd spoken in an accent like those featured in adverts for Malibu, (ultra-relaxed Caribbean sterotypes splashing around in boats and drinking rum), Fosters, (boozed up laid back lager drinking Australian sterotypes), Dolmio, (large-family Italian stereotypes slurping spag bol on the terrace), Heineken, (a whole host of offence, from litigious Americans, neutral Swiss and whacked-out Dutch), then it's safe to say that the frankly insane likes of Peter Jones would be offended.
You can look for offence in anything. I have a geordie accent, I'm from Newcastle, but I don't live their. So I have an accent I rarely hear around me except for when it's on TV. Should I be grossly offended that Alan Partridge's mate has a geordie accent? I mean, he's funny, but he's a bit of an idiot. If the meerkat was portrayed as a suave, sophisticated, bilingual gent (which he is), but also happened to be a geordie, should or would I be offended? Of course not.
No-one has really said WHY anyone would find it offensive. Care to answer Peter?"
"olching;
I'm not from england.
I do find it interesting though, that you can't see the difference between this and brand-gate.
It reminds me of another leftish attribute; getting all hot under the collar over offence to abstract groups, while not giving a toss about offences against actual real people."
"Indeed, Olching, at risk of offending Peters girlfriend again I imagine it will look somewhat like a Ukranian village after a visit from the SS.
(I know, I know)"
"FlashHarryMan
It was Malibu.
Still funny, I think, but an insult is like spit in the eye of the beholder."
"_AT_ hermionegingold
22 Aug 09, 8:31pm (2 minutes ago)

Yes please. Black, no sugar. I've got half a Jamaica Ginger cake if you'd like a slice?"
"I wish we were, but I just can't stop posting!
I've never been this angry at a CIF article before, and I never thought I would be because one was just so stupid.
I could have been doing something useful this evening, but instead I've been here ranting and laughing at other people ranting.
Who'd a thought rage could be so addictive"
"MrSilver:

Know the feeling. Aggravating, huh."
"This ad is an illustration of the British Gaze on new immigrants. There is a power structure going on here, the indigeonous population (ie: the British) find it cool to make fun of the ""poor immigrant"". Here the ""gazer"" is a representative of a rich nation (UK) and the object of the gaze comes from a poor land ""far far away"" and he/she works for the ""gazer"".
Some posters make comparisons with the ads making fun of Italians, French, Geordies. But there is no power relationship with the Italians, French or Northeners.
Most posters here failed to understand why this ad may be offensive because they do not see the power relationship."
peters girlfriend has now chucked him and has moved in with the latvian lodger...a happy ending all round x
"Soledad3000

it's not offensive."
"_AT_hermionegingold
ok. are we done?
who's for coffee
When we were kids my mums' Polish friend used to say ""you for coffee?"" and we'd giggle because it sounded like ""you fuck off ee."" Seeing as we're on the subject of accents and stuff.
No, you're right, we're done."
Culture Studies 101, Soledad3000?
I would like to do a print-out of Peter Jones's contributor picture and then burn it in the street - just like they did with Salmon Rushdie! (but my printer is not working at the moment).
He doesn't work for the "gazer". He run his own meerkat comparison site, and from the look of him and his surroundings, it's quite profitable.
"I'm really not sure I agree that this is us making fun of them (the poor immigrants) As many posters have pointed out, the character in the ads is dapper, clearly well educated and apparently a successful internet entrepreneur. Surely a fine role model, even if he is a talking meerkat.
It's hardly reinforcing the minimum wage immigrant stereotype."
It's a good thing it is broken therealrodhull, spontaneous protests are frowned upon in the UK these days.
Soledad3000, could you please provide a link to some police statistics that show an increase in harrassment of and attacks upon Eastern Europeans since this ad starting airing?
I have what I think is a mild Black Country accent. When I started teaching in north Nottinghamshire the kids thought i was 'foreign', one thinking I was from 'Iceland or somewhere'. When me, or my son, try to speak Mallayalm, with my wife's family in Kerala, they always laugh and say we sound like Tamils. No point to this really, just that accents are endearing, funny or can be mocked to cause offence. This advert almost certainly isn't intended as the latter. As for using Indian or Caribbean accents, again it's the context and intention that matter. I hardly ever hear an Indian accent done in any other way than to be offensive.
"Hermione
i've got a couple of Bakewell tarts - do you want to share?"
"I've got another good one. Czech often pepper their sentences with the question ""Fakt?"", as in ""is that a fact?"". Of course because vowels have different values, it comes out sounding exactly like ""fucked"".
But it works both ways. I mentioned that I had once known a girl called Hazel, and that had a class of teenagers in stiches for ten minutes because it sound exactly like the Czech word for shithouse.

Are you sure about that?"
I'm not sure about cockerney chimpanzees hermione, but I can state with certainty that all crows talk like this.
This has to be a joke, surely. I thought the basis of the advert was that the words market and meercat sounded almost similar. I don't know how anyone could presume the advert is offensive to Eastern Europeans without people actually looking to be offended.
Get a life you sad liberal. Nice advert for comparethemarket.com though eh? A free link from the article, can't be bad!!! Can i get a free link to my company if i produce an advert that offends your pathetic sensibilities?
"PEEEAAAANNUUUUUTTTSSSSS!
De're jungle fresh!
:-D"
"hamahiga

Who's being insulted?"
"Do you know what's really funny?
Never mind when PJ logs in to check his comments, what if he's been telling all his work mates and family... his mum even about his cool writing gig at the Guardian!
He's going to have to call in sick Monday to give everyone in the office time to stop laughing before he goes back.
You know how cruel the boys in ""The financial sector"" can be."
"Okay, EddieBurk, in the story above an actual person (Peter's girlfriend) took offence...hence according to your logic it is on a par with the Brand-Ross thingy (probably worse, as Andrew Sachs didn't really take offence)...so offence is always in the eye of the beholder (though when Little Englanders and similar weirdos take offence on someone's behalf who isn't offended, it's a kind of deferred beholder), and sometimes(or even often) the beholder is quite sensitive, overly so.
By the way, when Tsonga was called a cute little Golliwog by Carol Thatcher, that too was about an 'actual person'. Was that ok for you? Why/Why not? Why/Why not is there a difference to the Brand-Ross thingy? There is of course little difference...
Piratetwin, now, now, we don't want to be causing more offence round here..."
"Hermione,
so is he a celebrity? Is he...a left- or right-wing celeb? ;0)"
Doesn't that make them libertarian right-wing then...?
"As a Russian I'm not really offended by that particular or any other silly adverts. Although I find most TV adverts highly annoying, as if they were deliberately made to dissuade people from buying the products that they're trying to sell.
Laughing at Eastern Europeans' accents is a sure sign of insecurity of some British folks though. Why don't you laugh at your sports ""heroes"" like David Beckham, for instance, and many others who cannot put two words together without repeatedly saying ""you know, you know, you know""? Those are the real comical characters :)"
"I know a hillbilly (real one) who can do a perfect Bermondsey accent.
Don't worry, author - as soon as New Labour officially recognises Eastern Europeans a another victim group in their own right, reams of legislation will be put in place to prevent this.
Don't fret."
"heyhabib

Everyone? or perhaps no one...thought it was quite funny."
I had seen Count von Count on Sesame Street before and not thought anything of it. However on this occasion, my girlfriend, who is an upper class Romanian accountant turned to me ...
"But we do! Posh and Becks are the funniest thing we have had in years, and they provide us with much amusement.
And we used to have a good old laugh at Paul Gascoigne too, until we found out he was actually ill."
"_AT_namordnik:

www.david-beckham.net/jokes/index.shtml"
"I think that in real world terms this is what happens
Ad types read the trade press -- Campaign, Ad Age - and find ideas to copy.
Ad agency person for this online insurance agency looked at highly successful GEICO ad series that uses a cute cartoon gecko to do funny things and promoted GEICO insurance. The mascot has been so successful that GEICO claims adjusters have lime green cars with huge paintings of the adorable gecko.
Meerkats are even cuter. I suspect the ad guy used the Eastern European accent just as a way to link to the anthropomorphic mascot.
PS the GEICO gecko has a cockney accent"
Just be thankful it wasn't an ad for a muslin comparison website.
"If you want something to be offended about how about all the middle class Oxbridge mid 20's media types* that try to affect a working class accent.
*Various tv and radio presenters being a good example and I'm sure we all know a few examples."
I never watched more than 5 min B.B. but believe that Goody went ballistic for being laughed at by a middle-class Indian for saying Way-Oh instead of Whale. Is that correct? Extremely thin skinned for the Way-Oh she was.
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To be perfectly honest I only ever feel truly offended by my alarm clock.
Good for me. I have no regrets, having thrown my television out of the window twelve years ago. Not having offensive little advertising worms in my living space has been nothing but pleasant.
"No.
Well not unless Max Gogarty, Tanya Gold, Matt Seaton, the Myersons, Bidisha, Andrew Brown, Madeline Bunting, Victoria Coren, Rupa Huq, Chukka Umunna, Derek Draper, Brendan O'Neill and Harry Phibbs are right wing libertarians. Ok I'll concede the last two but Frank Fisher who is indeed the real deal is hardly mememememe.
I'm happy to accept that they are all closet right wing libertarians (if there is such a thing) but real libertarians are out in the open surely? Most of them are happy to shout it from the rooftops, no?"
Good for you. I take it you also think the little advert at the top of this page for 'You are the Umpire' from the Guardian bookshop is also 'seriously, obscenely offensive.'
"_AT_latimeralder

.
I would like to take offence at my own posting since in real life (i.e. outside of CiF and in the big wide world) I really am an IT Manager. And we IT Managers are not in general stupid. And nor do we have Russian accents - or even fake ones.
Who can I complain to about my own post that offended me? Perhaps the ASA would take my case...or maybe we need an accent Ombudsman to work out how much damages I must pay me for the grave offence I have caused. Whatever it is I Demand Justice!
Maybe its not so simples :-("
Even by the Guardian's standards of spot-the-racist agitprop this is an unusually silly piece. As has been pointed out ad nauseam, TV commercials are positively groaning with parodies of northern, Caribbean, African, Indian, American accents. Eastern Europeans, as you rightly point out, are now a significant part of the population. Should they be exempt from any satire or discussion on the grounds that you've constructed a thin argument about their not having had access to the ASA under communism? Grow up and grow a pair.
"NapoleonKaramazov:

Now then, NK, if you read your Russian authors a little more carefully you'll glimpse why the current economic situation may not be entirely due to the Wicked West. Stereotypically speaking of course. And why no Pasternak?"
"piratetwin
I've just found out that my local council will not allow the burning of a print-out of Peter Jones's portrait (or anything else) in the city centre!
However, I would be permitted to jump up and down, and stamp on it, providing I don't use words like 'martyr' or 'infidel' etc. But since stamping on it is not very dramatic, I might even urinate on it too!
So, if I can attract enough people to join me on a demonstration in order to get some media interest, from say, The Guardian and The Sun etc. to make it worthwile, I will organise it (But this all depends if I can get my printer nozzle working properly to not print with fuzzy lines)."
"Right. No one leaves this meeting till we come with an idea for a campaign so irritating that it'll be Son of Birdie Song.
Perhaps we could base it on a bird or an animal. Anyone got anything? .........."
"I sink zet sumvun is heffink a zens off humour failure.
Taking the piss out of accents (not just foreign but British) is a comedy staple in the UK.
As a Sarth Efrikin, I often have colleagues and mates take the piss out of my accent, bit thet is not ""very offensuv"" to me.
Some folk need to stop finding offense as a hobby.
By the way, I reckon these Compare the Meerkat ads are classics."
"mouseyone

As a male, I know that we only have sufficient blood in our system to service one head at a time."
Taking offence is the last resort of the egotistic and self-important.
Even join groups such as the Za Polish Pipples' Liberation Vront?
"You yourself said, ""eastern Europeans/Russians"" (I take it you think they all sound the same, right?) pronounce ""market"" as ""meerkat"". I'm therefore wondering how exactly Aleksandr Orlov should be pronouncing market? With a strong Liverpudlian accent?
According to you, the adverts are so racist you just had to complain yet you failed to see anything at all wrong until your girlfriend said she was offended. Offended by a mild sterotype = racism? I'm sorry, you simply don't understand what racism is.
At worst, the advert is using a mild stereotype and, as such, is no different from shows or adverts around the world which play upon the stereotypes of British accents. In these CTM adverts, the stereotype never crosses into any negative connotation of any people from any nation. Clearly you failed to observe that the meerkats are portayed as rather quite bright, cheerful and altogether lovely little things?
As someone married to a non-white, non-Brit, I can tell you racism is alive and well in our land just as it is alive and well in pretty much any country you may ever visit. My wife has suffered derogatory remarks and threats simply because of her race and I have no doubt that our son will sadly have to hear such insults directed to him at some time in his life. I'm not shut off from the reality of what goes on every day in Britain thinking racism died out years ago - it didn't and it likely never will. But it's ridiculous articles like yours that do even more harm. You present a half-baked contradictory article in which any reader can see you make the exact same steroetypical assumptions that you've complained about. Are you racist then? You seem to honestly believe this marketing campaign was ""targeting a sector of the population who would be unlikely to fight back."" No. It was targeting people who might need some insurance.
You've managed to belittle a very serious subject matter. Congratulations."
"bobdoney

Pasternak is a cliche, as far as I am concerned.
Dr Zhivago is just a pastiche of the real greats of the century before. Clunky and unattractive, it conveys nothing.
Pasternak would have been rightly condemmed to obscurity if it wasn't hijacked by the west for use as anti-soviet agitprop, plus the Hollywood blockbuster film which is so full of Russian cliches it is nauseous.
Try Mikhail Sholokhov's Quiet Don series instead for you Russian revolutionary fix."
There has to be a sitcom in there somewhere.
"BeaverLasVegas

.
I'm not sure that's completely true but even if it were, it would be a different case.
We're talking here about people - Eastern Europeans - who are struggling to learn and speak English. They want - would really love - to speak like we do, but this advert just takes the piss out of them for it. That's not the end of the world, but it's not nice.
I'm sure you wouldn't mimic a foreigner's accent to their faces, would you?
And why not? Because you instinctively know that it's offensive.
OK for a comedian to make an occasional joke in a foreign accent, fine. They're just one-offs. But this is an advert repeated over and over and over again.
The advertisers themselves know very well it's offensive - that's why they pick on a group that can't effectively answer back. That's cowardly too.
BTW, I'm not some bleeding-heart anti-BNP fanatic. Far from it. But fair's fair."
I thought it would be a cold day in Hell when I ever agreed with Waltz about anything. Is it just me or has somebody turned the heating off?
"Guy goes into work in his office one day. His boss introduces him and his colleagues to a new work mate - Natalya Ranevskaya. Guy gets on with his work, filing, writing reports, that sort of thing.
A shadow falls across his desk.
He looks up.
There, leaning over the partition, is the statuesque shape of Natalya.
'Hello, Natalya, how can I help you?' he asks.
'I need you"", she replies.
He gulps. 'What?'
'I need you to give me keess', she murmurs.
'.... I beg your pardon?'
'I need you to give me kees... right now.'
'...NOW?!?!?!'
'Yess, I really need you to give me keess'
'Right here, in front of everybody?'
'No, een cupboard.'
'Eh!?!?'
""Yes, I need keess - I need to get stapler, pens and calculator for my desk, and de boss tell me you have de keess for cupboard'.
True story!
Not even Borat would say Market like 'Meerkat'."
"Northener
Ooh, someone else who takes offense for a hobby.

Now, me, I know a number of folk from Eastern and Central Europe, all of whom are quite comfortable with their own accents and have no desire to speak like a northerner or anyone else, and all of whom speak English at least as good as (if not better than) many Brits.
I really don't think you can claim to be speaking on behalf of any Eastern or Central European; you have just chosen to appoint yourself as their spokesperson without being asked.


As I have posted above, I am a ""foreigner"" - a South African who has lost count of the number of times Brits have tried out their ""Sarth Efrikin"" accent on me. Am I offended? No. I try teach them how do it properly.

Gosh. An advert repeated? Whatever next?

You clearly don't any Eastern and Central Europeans. Self-assertiveness and self-confidence is not something that those that I know are lacking in.

No, you are just someone who seems to have missed noticing that this article has united the whole of CiF, across the political spectrum, in piss taking scorn. Something not at all easily done."
You wouldn't give a shit if your girlfriend was Chinese, you pompous twat.
am I the only one feeling warm and fuzzy about this? :-)
Didn't she like the "meerkat suggestion"?
"oatcuisine:

It will. We'll get all of them in the end."
I would also add that I think the meerkat in that advert is kind of cool.
"_AT_shazthewombat

Probably. Whenever I do my girlfriend's bidding I'm usually allowed below the line later on."
"They probably write funny, too.
Could you imagine a Pole writing Heart of Darkness?"
I blame people laughing at the character Latka Gravas from Taxi for the disastrous mismanagement of the big-bang economic revolution in 90s Poland, the serial wars in Bosnia and the success of Cheeky Girls.
"SuicideByMod having a spat with Northerner.
I've seen everything now.

True.
Ah, advertising and the post-ironic world. You can't beat it."
"Actually, he'd be vely offlended
This post will self destruct in 10 se.."
"Oh for Heaven's sake!
Taking the p... out of other people's accents is fun! I live in Germany, and it really disappoints some people that I don't speak as if I had a plum in my mouth. However, after a few beers I'll give it my best shot... and in any case I sometimes mis-translate from English to German and finish up saying things which cause great hilarity. But I assure you zat I cän give as good as I get in zese mätters.
I also have a Polish girlfriend, and I can assure readers of the Guardiąnószcz that when she says ""Market"", it sounds nothing like ""Meerkat"". She tells me that Polish and Ukrainian are very close to one another in the Slavic language group and are mutually intelligible, (her mother was born in the former Polish city of Lwów, now, post-1945, the Ukrainian city of Lviv), so it makes me wonder what Meester Szóns who wrote this piece is actually on.
You tink he really have Ukrainian girlfriend? I tink ""no."" He maybe see beautiful Slavic girlies when he travel on Andergraund and he weeshing he is having one in his arms. He hear word ""Meerkat"" and it give rise to beeg fantasy zat he ees protecting her from cruel world.
Loosen up! Take the example of the people of Bristol! They knows they speak funny, and they even sells T-shurrts wiv fings in dialect! I'ze got one or two o' they! (Oi lived thurr 'fore I moved to Berlin). Fer example, when thee travels on buses in Brizzle and thee gets off, thee always sez ""Churz, drive"", to the driver. Courtesy, like. Now, down thurr, lots o' they drivers is from Poland, and they'ze even done a ""Churz, drive"" T-shurrt in Polish: ""Dzięke, Kierowco.""
Iz zat takin' the p*** or what?"
At least there's someone to keep you company.
Is Heart of Deerkness, no?
"Problem with this article...and it's what makes this whole thread a moot point is that someone at cif knows full well the guy's a pompous arsehole and also knew the treatment it was going to get and thoroughly deserved. It's one of those comment magnets...lightly moderated..it's a gift..a ""go on do your worst and have a laugh"". Even the Guardian isn't that fuckin po faced.
But..and here's the rub: personally, for me, there's no qualitative difference between this and a lot of what Toynbee, Monbiot, Bidisha, Tanya Gold, Harry Phibbs, Matt Seaton or even the odd Inayat produce. Seriously. How are we meant to tell which threads we can let rip on and which are considered open for serious debate? I can't tell.
As much as he is a ludicrous, over-sensitive wanker making a prick of himself (snigger snigger...don't worry folks..rip it to pieces), how the fuck do you tell?"
"Charliepolecat

I was just thinking the same thing, myself... great minds, eh?"
"heyhabib
I am right aren't I? This was one of those ""here's a tenner...go to the pictures or do what you like, the grown ups are having a night in"" type threads?
This whole thread's a fuckin joke. Personally, what's killing cif is the egregious lack of Hank Scorpio, Woolly and (god this hurts) Pikebishop. How's a new set of restrictions gonna improve things?"
"Charliepolecat
""How are we meant to tell which threads we can let rip on and which are considered open for serious debate?""
Doesn't a lot of it depend on what day of the week it is? ie; I posted something on a weekday that had the words 'big' and 'breasts' in the same sentence, and it got removed, while worse language has remained on posts at the weekends!"
"Still going? Crikey.
Enjoy it while it lasts, because the new EU harmonisation plan is intended to get rid of the problem altogether.
The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).
In the first year, ""s"" will be used instead of the soft ""c."" Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the hard ""c"" will be replaced with ""k"". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik emthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome ""ph"" will be replaced by ""f"". This will make words like fotograf"" 20 persent shorter.
In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent ""e""s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.
By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing ""th"" by ""z"" and ""w"" by "" v"".
During ze fifz year, ze unesesary ""o"" kan be dropd from vords kontaining ""ou"", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.
Ze drem vil finali kum tru."
"Holly shit, Charlie - it's a diversion! Quick - back to the noticeboards!!!
I can't believe I'm half way through reading every comment, but many have made me laugh - so I thank CiF for that.
Incidentally, nobody has yet mentioned how much Mr Jones' girlfriend is going to kick his ass when she finds out that he's made a laughing stock out of her. (Even though her ""feeling offence"" is her own business.)"
"Hands down the most absurd article I've ever read on CIF. You really need to lighten up Mr Jones. As does your girlfriend. I can't believe she was seriously offended by the meerkats.
Your lumping together of all Eastern Europeans/ Russians into one homogenous ethnic group is more offensive than anything the poor meerkat's ad agency dreamed up.
I'm a Brit who's lived in Central Europe for 7 of the past 13 years - I was married to a Czech girl - and I cannot imagine anyone I've met in that time from this region being in the slightest bit offended by this ad.
Perhaps you are a plant from comparethemarket.com to get a few hundred people thinking about their meerkats?"
Surely she actually said "I don't like zees reklam, eet eez very offending for mee".
"As a serious response to this piece ...
oatcuisine

Bloody well said, mate - my thoughts exactly.
Less seriously ...
... if there's one ad at the mo that, while not racist, does strike me as a bit, er 1970's in its stereotyping, it's the Chinese cook in sauce one with lots of leaping around and kung-fu, complete with Bruce Lee era bad lipsync.
I almost feel embarrased for the ad guy who came up with that one :)
Contrast that with a great line from Harold and Kumar ...

... which is at least funny.
And least seriously of all ... accents.
SuicideByMod

Guilty as charged on that one – worked with a fair few SA guys over the years. Personally I blame Joss Diplomitic immunity, Mr Riggs Ackland. Though it always sounded more like Sith Ifrika –hmmm, the joys of trying to phonetically spell accents.
And I always find it a bit of a laugh when American colleagues try and do MY accent. Leads to the inevitable bout of mutual piss-taking.
Charliepolecat

Reminds me of a joke that ends with the punchline:
Fluctuations? Yeah. And fluck you white people too!"
"Imagine the scene - Peter Jones and his Ukrainian girlfriend are sitting at home watching the telly, an advert comes on featuring a CGI - animated meerkat with a vaguely Eastern European accent.
'Peter dahlink, that sweet little meerkat has an accent just like mine'. 'You know Za Za, you are absolutely right' says Peter, ' but It's given me an idea, you know how short of money we are since I had to give up my bonus, if we pretend that you are insulted I could write an article about the implicit racism contained in the advert and sell it to the Guardian CiF, they love stuff like that, they'd buy it in an instant and I bet it would get hundreds of comments from that gang of left-wing loony ciffers. They are so easy to wind up'
'You are so clever Peter dahlink' said Za Za as she stroked his thigh..............."
What a very intolerant article, racist in its assumptions of hostility....hair shirt anyone?
"Where did my speach marks just bugger off to? For clarity, the ref above should be:

Let's see if they make it in this time.
And one other thought - every time someone mentions Peter Jones in their responses ...
I can't help thinking, damn, Dragons Den's gone downhill recently."
"There's a big assumption in that statement. You assume that the ""Eastern European"" population is here to stay and that they consider themselves ""part of the British population"". Do they? You sure about that?
I'm not and, what's more, I'm not sure they'd even consider trying to identify themselves as British. They are proud Poles/ Latvians/ Czechs/ Ukrainians living in Britain for a while. And that's all cool with me. I believe they have enriched life in Britain since their arrival in 2004 immeasurably as well as raised standards in innumerable service industries; skilled and unskilled.
If you are correct then I suggest you have a quiet word in the ear of your girlfriend about a few of the things we cherish in Britain; pride in our sense humour which very often means taking the piss out of other cultures, parody, irony and, oh yes, our rich advertising traditions which are often beyond silly but we love them.
Finally you say this;

Why didn't you decide to switch off the TV?"
"This advert is ""DISGRACEFUL"" and should be banned. It is encouraging young meerkats to smoke and just because they are animals it is deemed acceptable. NO NO NO.
Actually I hate this advert, it's on all the time and it's annoying."
"The Ambassador's Reception (Ferrero Rocher) - offensive to Eurotrash everywhere
Piat D'Or - offensive to French people everywhere. Not only for the accent but also for the fact that no self-respecting Frenchman would be seen dead within a half mile radius of a bottle of Piat D'Or"
"Benjine.
Good point. Top post
Manchester-offensive to scousers everywhere"
"_AT_ BlairwasagoodPM

Here's Bob n Dave in full. Written by Czechs for Czechs (note the subtitles). Was a big hit over here.
Interesting true story about that ad. My bro-in-law (who works in the ad business in Prague) was a fan of Sexy Beast and owned the DVD which he randomly lent to one of the creative guys he worked with. They were so ""inspired"" by it, when the budvar brief landed on their desk they decided to make an ad parodying that movie. Ironic considering that it was a great advertising director's first attempt at making a feature length movie and was, itself, a parody of a gangster movie."
welcome to the uk.
Hopefully she'll have realised by now that it's not necessarily always considered normal here either
I love the meerkats.com. It's wonderful and funny, even though I would never use their product because price comparison sites cannot beat a decent broker. The author is way off base. The one I hate is the one of 0118 or whatever. I never use their product and their ads make me vomit, literally ,they are so disgusting
I would have thought the answer to this question is obvious - because they are made by morons for morons.
next we have PETA weigh in re abuse of endangered species as advertising mascots........
If this piece is typical of the levels of judgment knocking about in the financial sector, it might explain a few things.
"Yeah, they picked on meerkats.
Tell me, would you ever be offended that someone mocked the Western European accent? No, you wouldn't, because there is no Western European accent, in just the same way that there is no Eastern European one.

The funny thing about that youtube clip are the comments from Czechs trying to guess what the accents are - obviously Australian, clearly American. See, they're no better at identifying accents."
"_AT_charliepolecat

Ees all sinister government plot to divert non brain-dead peeps from concentrating on real issues. Toynbee, Monbiot, Phibbs et al is all made up peeps by Great Lord Mandelbrot and Balls for so as to distract debate from true problems of country regime like is broke, has no balls, has no credibility. So made up peeps talk about other sings instead like green and 'social justice' and other crap and grauniaad readers fall into cunning trap of taking them seriously. So missing BIG point. Slam Dunk Mandeballs.
Simples!"
If you need, Peter, I can recommend a good doctor who will clear that sand right out of your vagina.
I'm going to complain to the ASA about Aleksandr's blatant anti-mongoose racism.
Anybody else wonder if this piece is a set-up by the mods to see just how seriously we are taking the 'etiket guidelines' in practice?
"I actually think the most offensively racist ad on TV at the moment is the HSBC one with the 'backward' Russian washing machine manufacturer and the 'primitive' Indian using it to make kulfi.
It's far more overtly offensive than the meerkat one, which I just think is a little lame."
"_AT_PhilipaB
The thought had occurred to me too and I think we've all failed the test."
"liberalcynic

I didn't see 'backward' or 'primitive' at all in that ad. Plus it's lassi that's being made, not kulfi. You'd struggle to make kulfi in even the finest Russian washing machine. The sign 'Vikki's Lassi Bar' on the shop was a hint.
Where do I need to get educated so I can be as offended as others?"
LordSummerisle, even if the guidelines are flawed and some Cif contributors absolutely, thoroughly deserve to have the royal living fuck trolled out of them?
"Lassi, as fridgeman points out.
Funny how different people get different ideas from watching the same advert. To me, the Indian was a clever guy who looked at the washing machine, realised it could be used to make Lassi in bulk and saw a business opportunity. So, far from being primitive, he was an inventive entrepreneur."
I quite agree. I'm proud we failed the test.
"This is undoubtedly THE worst article I have EVER read on this website, or any newspaper website. How unimaginative and pointless to pick out, in an economic downturn, one of the few success stories of the television advertising world and attempt to label it offensive when it is in fact hilariously funny and has my friends and colleagues of all races and genders in stiches.
I'm a person offended by little, admittedly, but I think for the first time since the accusations that Chris Moyles is homophobic (he clearly isn't), this article has genuinly offended me as a result o the writer being allowed to publically condone such extreme political correctness at the expense of creativity. Get a ****ing life!
This man should never be allowed to write for the Guardian again. Simples."
"heyhabib


Que?"
"kakihara

The SA accents in Lethal Weapon 2 are notorious amongst South Africans for being the lamest attempts at our accent every seen on the big screen.
The only time I have ever seen a non-SAn actor pretty much nail the accent was Leonardo diCaprio in Blood Diamond (btw, Arnold Vosloo is a real SAn, so he doesn't count).
""Sith Ifrikin""?
Jislaaik, my china, how many times do I have to tune you okes that this is not way that those of us with the thucker eksents say it - ut's Sarth Efrikin!"
"Quoth altowers,

Come back Ruth Fowler, all is forgiven!"
But wasn't Danny Archer from Rhodesia?
"Compared to the highly offensive portrayal of a transgendered person by Kudos in the ITV series Moving Wallpaper this is almost infinitesimally insignificant. The episode of Moving Wallpaper contained a sustained transphobic attack on a character in the story, who was apparently only chosen to be there because any other types of bigotry such as racism or homophobia would have attracted very large numbers of complaints and caused a furore in the gay press (although it was ignored by the mainstream media)
In the event more than 85 complaints were made to Ofcom (compared to 8 about the homophobic DJ on the radio) who ruled against the complaint, although we are appealing against their judgment.
If this complaint is upheld by the ASA there will be a lot of accusations about double standards - how can taking the piss out of an accent be worse than sustained transphobic abuse? - and the transgendered community will rightly be more angered by the idea that there is a hierarchy of discrimination.
.
Hermione;
Who gives a flying fart what the Daily Mail thinks? I don't see why any debate should be stifled by those sleazy scumbags. I really do get fed up with people on CiF whose only contribution seems to be ""shut up"". Pathetic."
"The Graun's revenge against bankers, by giving one of them the opportunity utterly to humiliate himself (which he spectacularly did).
If this has been an article by Bidisha it would have been moderated to buggery."
"LordSummerisle

Supposedly, but there is hardly any difference between the SAn English-speaking accent and the white Zimbabwean accent (to the extent that I often cannot distinguish between the two unless certain colloquialisms are used).
Also, Danny Archer was using SAn rather than Rhodie colloquialisms, so to all intents and purposes he spoke as a Saffa."
"Natacha

Yes, quite ..."
Fair 'nuff, SuicideByMod ... I can't pretend to know much about the accents from that part of the world.
"_AT_ Fridgeman
I bow to your superior CiF monicker! Splendid stuff.
The ad still irritates the pants off me though."
"_AT_ Suicidebymod

Oh - I thought that was Dick van Dyck's Cockerney Afrikaans in Mary Poppins."
"Offensive - not really.
Odious - extremely
but on a more serious note -

Says a lot about ITV."
"LordSummerisle

One can often tell on the 'phone (by no means always) if you are speaking to an English-speaking white SAn, an Afrikaans-speaking white SAn, a black SAn, a coloured SAn or an Indian SAn.
There are also those who can tell if someone is from Jo'burg (where I am from), Durban or Cape Town. I have to say that I'm crap at detecting regional variations in SAn accents.
On the contrary, my wife (who is from North Warwickshire) can tell from which town or city in the Midlands someone is from, simply from their accent."
Unspeakably bad. Off the top of my head, this is the worst article of the year.
"liberalcynic

:)"
"SimpleTaxman
I find the comparethemeerkat ads original, entertaining and effective, something all too often lacking in British TV ads."
"You have to hand it to the people who made the ad: it's been fantastically successful. According to Wikipedia, ""comparethemarket.com website is now ranked as the 4th most visited insurance website in the UK – up from 16th in January 2008; and overall sales have more than doubled year on year as a result of the TV ‘meerkat campaign"":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Orlov_(meerkat)
Oh, I don't know. I suppose the whole campaign is premised on one rather dubious precept - ""Aren't foreigners funny?"" - and that can get tiresome after a while. But we do have a bit of a tradition of it - look at Inspector Clouseau or Stavros. And I bet other countries do too."
You mean that Peter Jones is paid for this bollocks?
"Gessler

I doubt it. All too likely he saw the reward as impressing his Ukrainian girlfriend. Something of an own goal, methinks ..."
"Morning fellow meerkats
Just thought I would let you know that I am very offended and will shortly be writing a complaint to Kellogg's Special K...I have been eating two bowls every day for two weeks and still don't look like the woman on the packet...lose a dress size?... yeah whatever!"
"Caught this one on 'Dave ja vu' this morning....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ-6clXHMEw
Don't tell Peter!"
"Just wondered what those very few who take offence at the advertisement do in real life?
I'm guessing that they are all 'inspectors' of something or other. Or maybe parking wardens or refuse collection weighing operatives. Something involving clipboards anyway
Or they've seen the 'offending piece' so often because they never go out to engage with reality."
"_AT_whood
Giorgio must certainly be banned. Do they not realise that meerkats are an endangered species and a hint of competition may cause dear Aleksandr to have a fit of the vapours. It may even put him off his vodka and caviar.
Call the ASA immediately on their Sunday emergency number and DEMAND immediate punitive action (with collateral damage)
Protection for Meerkats NOW!"
"There is obviously still loads of mileage in this idiotic contribution thank goodness, I've got quite bad toothache at the moment and this is the only thing that's cheering me up.
Well done Peter Jones, you must surely be tit of the year!"
"_AT_ CordeliaM

I think you're supposed to eat it instead of the cream buns."
A sprinkling of good points about middle class imitations of working class accents. Now bearing in mind that there is a very real power dynamic at play there, then consider how much working class people have to put up with this rubbish, if you can. Now consider that working class people are exreeeeeeemely unlikely to complain, because we know we really won't be listened to. So can we, please, just for once consider the class angle AS WELL as the cultural one??? Please, pretty please? Always gets lost because the middle classes don't wanna talk about it. Awww, must be tough being a middle class Englishman / Ukrainian woman, my heart bleeds.
"_AT_SuicideByMod
I always grab the remote to turn the sound off when the meerkat adverts come on, I find them so annoying. But I am pleased you like them - the world needs variety of tastes and opinions.
On a completely different note -
I note from one of your earlier posts that you are from Jo'burg. My, now dead, father spent a lot of time there as a young man and it's ages since I've heard Johannesburg shortened to Jo'burg as he always did. Thanks for triggering the memory."
Oh, one more thing, I believe that Allo Allo has now been sold to a German TV company, apparently they love it ;)
"_AT_Rock23

No. Because there isn't one.
The class war died out about 30 years ago. Apart from in the minds of ageing grauniad readers, who still want to man the barricades of 1968 or 1984."
"WHAAAT! You mean I am meant to survive on those little bits of cardboard....I did think it tasted odd with a glass of wine...
Definitely prejudical towards people who are a little bit chubby like wot I am...BTW I call myself a 'foodie' someone who likes food!"
"Maybe shazthewombat should be prevented from posting any further until the Regional Accent Veracity Institute of North Gloucester (Marsupial Assessment Department) confirms that he/she is not offending anybody...
CordeliaM - I stopped buying Tampax when I realised I was never ever going to learn to windsurf or rollerskate..."
O god I don't believe it. My spellchecker has just highlit "meerkat" as a mis-spell and offered "market" as the first alternative correct spelling.
Indeed...and apparently the Belgian chocolate 'n' Ricotta cheese topping ups the calorie count too...how do these people expect you to stick to a diet?
"The thing is, to my ignorant British ears, I can't actually tell the difference between different types of Russian accent. And there's nothing else about the advert that looks derogatory about Russians. A meerkat running an online dating agency for other meerkats hardly involves negative Russian stereotypes.
If the accent jars it's because the actor isn't good enough at Russian accents, not because he's taking the piss. You want to show your girlfriend Dick Van Dyke's Cockney accent in Mary Poppins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuWf9fP-A-U&feature=related"
"Having watched Allo Allo in Europe when it first came out (early 80s) it was my experience that the British enjoyed the caricature of the RAF johnnies and the policeman. The Italians wondered what their chief of general staff was doing in a comedy show and the Germans found it all hilarious.
The Scandiwegians loved it, but the French refused to watch it as they thought it was a documentary..and disrespectful to the Resistance."
"SuicideByMod
I see you're still bleating on about how amusing and inoffensive it is to mimic foreign learners' English.
I also note from one of your previous posts that you have some East European acquaintances, whom you describe as being ""self-assertive"".
In that case, I suggest an experiment. Approach one of these self-assertive Eastern Europeans, preferably the biggest and toughest-looking (male, of course - no cheating!), and speak to him in a parody of his own foreign accent. When he at first tries to laugh it off, don't back down, keep on parodying him, on and on.
Afterwards, when you're sufficiently recovered, crawl back to your computer and let us know all about it."
"_AT_LatimerAlder

Peter Jones is in finance. Some sort of banker I would guess. Had he been in one of your suggested occupations, working in the public sector, he would have been too thick-skinned by now to be offended by a cartoon meerkat's accent."
"_AT_ CordeliaM
I'm a foodie too, but being a bloke foodie it's not cream buns. It's pies. Oh I can get all health obsessed and do my forty lengths down the local pool, but then I come out ravenous afterwards and come over all Homer Simpson...mmm....pies...."
"SimpleTaxman

Yup, to each their own.
But the one that really makes me want to smash the TV is that Glade one in which that brat wants to do ""a poo at Paul's"". God know why that has not been pulled.

You're welcome. I no longer live in Jo'burg (I moved to the UK in 1999), but was back there in April to visit friends and family."
"_AT_SuicidebyMod

Oh God yes, you're so right about that one...summon the burgomeister...light the flaming torches...we storm Glade Towers tonight!"
"Northener
Ee ba gum, you're a reet sensitive one. Such aggrieved passion boiling away under that flat cap. Mind you don't kick the whippet while you're so righteously upset."
"Rock23

Gettin' down wiv da identity political crew, innit?"
"Know what you mean
stopped buying Blossom Hill Wine - no beautiful friends to drink it with *sob*
but on a more positive note have stuck with L'Oreal because I'm worth it (not sure what it is?)"
"This was on ITV a couple of decades ago. Please don't watch it if you find racism offensive.
Big smile, big smile!"
"liberalcynic

Damn you, now I really want a pie and my oven doesn't work."
This reminds me of when I was watching Father Ted, and my mate, who is a Catholic priest, said.....
"_AT_ PhilippaB

You mean you're supposed to heat them up?"
"_AT_PhilippaB
Anybody else wonder if this piece is a set-up by the mods to see just how seriously we are taking the 'etiket guidelines' in practice?
Could be; I'm still not 100% sure how authentic the original article is. The basic setup is a bit too close to something that might appear in Viz.
That said, never underestimate the lengths a man will go to to make himself appealing to a woman. I once went out with a woman who was so right-on she swore there was a mysogynistic subtext to an advert for Tunnocks tea-cakes, meriting a boycott in our godawful two-room household.
Despite having no fucking idea what she was on about, I whole-heartedly agreed with her, on the understanding that my enlightened sensitivity to her oppressed status would get me laid more often.
So Peter, in the event that you're doing the same, if I can share a couple of the few things I've learned in life;
1 : Find a woman with whom you can have a laugh, getting laid's over-rated.
2 : Tunnocks tea-cakes are better than sex."
"PhilippaB
Why not nip out to the shops? Oh, you live in France, don't you? Lazy b*******!"
"OMG I really hate that kid too...I' m sure it's dubbed as well. I will never buy that airfreshner just because of that kid and his awful mother.
That advert or the one about the blocked dishwasher with a sink of filthy water usually comes on just as I'm about to put food (like a piece of toast) in my mouth (remember my earlier comment about food?) ....that's a good way to stop eating - have disgusting adverts.
Good written accents SuicidebyMod"
"_AT_HeywoodJ

You're not the first to ascribe ulterior motives to the author of this article. Perhaps Peter Jones would like to come below the line and tell us whether it was successful and, indeed, whether she was worth it."
"Innit maaaaate! Sorry, touch a nerve did I?
Good point about the Warwicks woman who can spot a different town / city accent from the same area. It's said that the accent in Britain changes every 7 miles, though that may not be so true now, not sure, clarity from an Etymologist please. So quite a rich tradition of taking the michael out of accents, as someone said, welcome to the UK.
This has been a lot of fun, thanks to all for the laffs, I'm off into the sunshine.
Lateeeers!"
"CordeliaM

I 'ope tha's talkin' abaht Silth Ifrika, as when when it comes to t' North ee's rubbish, ee is."
"This is a most stereotypical and offensive article, clearly written by a non-progressive troll with the sole intention of most cruelly exposing through parody the self-righteous, irrelevant and perspective-free PC nonsense which is rapidly taking over CIF.
Simples <kykt>"
"Rock23

Hardly, I thought it was your nerve which had been touched. It now looks like I was trying to wind up a wind-up artist. :)

The ""Warwicks woman"" is my wife. We constantly take the piss out of each other about our respective pronunciations of ""cup"" and ""castle""."
"Orthus

Sarth Efrika not Silth Ifrika! :)
My Northern accent is worse than rubbish. The only Brit accent I can more or less do is ""plum in mouth posh""."
"LatimerAlder

I'd heard that 'Allo 'Allo was really popular on (parts of) the continent, but I've always wondered what the format was. Was it dubbed into different accents, or was it sub-titled?
It did seem quite strange that a programme whose central premise was to make fun of English characters trying badly to impersonate European accents - ""Good moaning"" - could ""travel"" to the non English-speaking world."
"Orthus

Heh heh. But then, I live very near the train station, ensuring that fags, confectionery, and baked goods are available throughout the week. If I couldn't get those items on a whim, I'd go on strike, although I'm not going to admit that on the other thread...
<devious chuckle />
liberalcynic - Given my surroundings, a pie is something that by definition has to be made at home, unless you're prepared to sandwich two quiches together, and trust me, that just ain't the same. Fortunately the variety of other pastry-based treats available means that this isn't a problem unless some evil individual starts talking about pies, and how lovely they are, preventing me from thinking about anything else until I have one...
grrrrr"
"_AT_olching;
see edmundberk's post at 8:15pm. he sums it up excellently"
"HeywoodJ

Errrrmmmm...they look like nipples?
Not really.
Nope, you've lost me on that one.
Plus - another foodstuff I now want to eat but isn't available to me. This thread was already painful, before my limited culinary opportunities was so cruelly pointed out. I haven't been made this cross by CIF since the great Jaffa Cake Debate.
Don't mind not being able to access Blossom Hill, however, that stuff's just horrible."
When I first read this I thought it must be April 1st. But, at least this has provided one of the most entertaining threads I've read in a long time. Well done to all! I quite like Alexandr but the Glade advert makes me want to gouge my eyes out!
"_AT_PhilippaB
You want to Google ""expat jaffa cakes france""
I found two sites near the top of the search that look like possibles for you. Both do jaffa cakes (under ""M"" for ""McVites Jaffa Cakes"") and both do Tunnocks Tea Cakes."
If Tunnocks teacakes are better than sex then things must be really grim Heywood. I feel for you.
"I see the chap has no other articles to his name when you click on his name.
I guess he was thinking: I want to break into journalism... how do I get something published? So he offered some paranoid accusation of racism. And the Guardian duly obliged.
Says a lot about the Guardian!!"
"PhilippaB
23 Aug 09, 11:21am (about 1 hour ago)

What did I do? I like meerkats!"
"PhilippaB
Never really seen them as looking like nipples but I suppose it's feasible.
Much larger than the average nipple (or any that I've encountered).
They are roughly hemispherical ; a light biscuit base, topped with light marshmallow, dusted with crack cocaine and covered in real chocolate."
"I thought the whole point of the adverts was that he's cross because everyone ELSE keeps getting meerkat and market confused?
(Have you seen the outtakes programme. That's brilliant!)"
"JaneBasingstoke - you have opened Pandora's Box there, my friend...
(we have friends driving down to us next weekend - they have already received our shopping list, and suffice to say, Jaffa Cakes feature rather prominently.)
shazthewombat - I know, I know, your posts have been eminently reasonable, and it's nothing against you personally, you know, it's just that in these dangerous times, you just can't be too careful. We can't just have all these marsupials running around making comments, can we? Even the reasonable ones. I mean, some of my best friends are marsupials, but that doesn't change the basic principal. CIF quarantine until we're sure you've assimilated properly and aren't offending anybody's sensibilities. Much the safest thing to do."
"KatieL
Any links to the outtakes?"
"Cordelia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hfOt1qoALo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKsSOEto3B0"
"PhilippaB
23 Aug 09, 1:06pm (9 minutes ago)

<Sulks in cage>"
"Nice to see the horror and disbelief hasn't let up while I've been asleep!
Will people be referring to this as MEERKATGATE in the Guardian.co.uk editorial meeting on monday?"
"PeterParker put it fairly succinctly on Page 1. If it's not demeaning, you can't realistically seek to ban it. The Meerkat advert may be unintentionally offensive to some, but that's certainly not its purpose.
I think we ought to be very careful about crying 'racism' when accents are parodied. We might end up banning all impressionists, for a start, who are far more ruthless in their treatment of, say, William Hague's accent - though the people of Rotherham are yet to revolt.
So you might say it's not the same thing - he's still English. Then what about the Scots, the Welsh, the Irish? Are those accents not to be parodied by Englishmen? And vice versa - are the Scots not allowed to parody a Cockney, a Scouser or a speaker of 'Queen's English'?
Where do we draw the line?"
"_AT_ PhilippaB

Do the Red Cross not deliver in cases of extreme need?
Anyway, by the time you have a pain fougasse, a wedge of quiche and an entire tarte aux pommes you'll be way too full to think about food for a while."
"_AT_wheatfromchaff

We watched it direct from BBC1 in an international education centre in Belgium. So it was exactly the same as in UK...no changes or subtitles. Attendance at the centre was predicated on the idea that you could speak decent 'business English' already...so the sample may have been a bit skewed.
Fawlty Towers subtitled in Spanish was quite fun...Manuel was Italian and came from Roma."
"381 comments .... and counting and not a single one has been moderated.
A first for the CiFerati?
WheatfromChaff's probably spot on;"
"The author probably reads too much into that ad.
However, generally I must say that I know of no other country where there are so many ""jokes"" around at the expense of foreigners.
When I lived in England I had time and again listen to two world wars and one world cup and ten German bombers and thelike when people learned that I came from Germany. That was really funny. In fact, it got funnier each time it happened, stopped counting when I reached 100.
The queen's head sumperimposed on a worm's body and called a worm on the front page of a national French paper? Unthinkable.
English people do not like to hear that, but all these ""jokes"" based on other peoples ethnicities can be offensive and the amount of them in England may tell you a thing or two about the English themselves…"
God help us all if any Martians set up a satellite receiver & see how we portrayed them in those Smash adverts from the 1970s...
"_AT_Benjine
""381 comments .... and counting and not a single one has been moderated.
A first for the CiFerati?
WheatfromChaff's probably spot on;""
"" I can't help thinking that this article is a bit of mischief making by the good burghers of CiF to test how well we abide by the debating rules which ""we"" agreed on only a couple of days ago.""
Yes, I'm also getting the creeping suspicion that we've been had. If so, kudos to Peter Jones; a well executed jape. If not, keep bashing the meerkat. It's a beautiful day and I'm off out on my bike.
ta ta the noo x"
This journalist needs to grow up! If he's to be consistent he must also criticise The Pink Panther (parodying french accent), Dracula (parodying romanian accent), Harry Enfield (parodying german accent), Spinal Tap (parodying english accent). But he won't because he's addicted to cherry-picking his outrage. Pathetic!
"You people aren't very understanding.
Don't you realise that when his girlfriend addresses him in a tender moment, in his minds eye, he sees that bloody meercat ?"
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"Sorry if anyone's pointed this out (had to skip three pages of posts because I must get on with work...)
NO East European Slav person of any variety would ever pronounce ""market"" ""meerkat""....(a Russian confused about stresses might just say meQUETTE)
But this is definitely the way my one or two Kiwi friends would pronounce it! Maybe NZ should sue on copyright."
"I realise the Ashes are on so the frenzy over MEERKATGATE is dying down but here I am stuck in central Europe with nothing but OBO to entertain me and I can't help thinking that this article REALLY IS A SPOOF. Just go back and re-read it.
I mean, its totally unprecedented to have absolutely ZERO moderation of an article on CiF.
Here's how it MIGHT work.
comparethemeerkat.com's PR/ ad agency come to their client and say: ""Right Mr/Ms Meerkating Director. We've got a bold new viral meerkating strategy to accompany the above the line campaign. We're going to seed an article - for which we'll pay GMG, say, £10,000 - on their Comment is Free online section. It'll be written by a ""journalist"" who'll have no previous history (this is ""Peter Jones'"" first ever article on here) and it will be about some absurdly politically correct complaint that he made to the ASA about your cute new ad and about how offended his cute new ""Ukrainian girlfriend"" was by it.
It'll cause an uproar - probably not on the Guardian because their readership consists of a bunch of famously lily-livered, bed-wetting liberals - but once it gets picked up by the right wing press... which we will ensure.... all hell will be unleashed. Littlejohn will weigh in. Hitchens will weigh in. Daley will weigh in. That's our cue to strike with the second wave of our campaign which is the ""SAVE OUR MEERKAT"" strategy. It will raise awareness by another 30%. Your business will continue to thrive.
'm afraid I think we've been had Guardianistas!"
Whatever happened to the Vodka from Varrington? Now those adverts were offensive........
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"_AT_bintheredunit : Just a minor point in the well-deserved piling-on and well-directed speculation about a spoof of some kind; I always read your name as Bin The Red Unit, which I took as a comment on either the Soviet Union or Manchester United (with, as an outside bet, the Milky Way advert).
Still, with you on the crease thing..."
"My dad once told my devoutly catholic grandmother to watch Father Ted on the premise it was a fly on the wall documentary about three priests living on an island...
They didn't talk for a while after that!"
I'm almost 100% certain it's a spoof...good fun though, some entertaining comments...Come on down below the line 'Peter Jones' let us know ...put us out of our misery ;o )
"_AT_PeterJackson
Yes ,it's meant to be ""been there, done it "" I dint notice it could be read ( prolly more easily ) as""bin the red unit "" until I had posted for a while.Ironic really because I'm an old ""clause4 socialist :-).
.
The crease - I only admire it from an artistic perspective- nothing lustful of course......................"
I want to complain about a Latvian woman who called me a 'nice gay' . Is this as ridiculously stupid as Peter Jones?
"LatimerAlder:

You sound/write like an educated man yet you seriously seem to be saying that there is such a thing as a classless society. Could you name one? You sound as deluded as those people you denigate ; those who manned the barricades in 68 and 84."
"_AT_bintheredunit
No problem - I have had other misreadings, including the classic youthful problem of 'misled' and the later, more embarrassing one involving www.psychotherapist.com.
Ah, Clause 4. Did she die in vain?"
i cant even believe this article. its a crap advert, but its not offensive. its not even suggesting that eastern europeans mispronounce "market," just that the two words sound similar anyway. the bloody meerkat clearly pronounces the two words differently at the end of the advert. lighten up for goodness sake
"_AT_PeterJackson
.
Yes ,sadly she did with narry a whimper-not that it affected me - I'd long since(comfortably) retired when she died. It's the principle , my class-empathy gene is most annoyed.
."
"whood:

Nope. The two words don't sound a thing alike in a Midwestern accent. In any Midwestern accent, actually, since there are several. Emphasis would be on different syllables and vowels completely different. (But I'm not offended by the suggestion that they might be...)
Obviously, the ads we get over here are different, but there's a vogue in US ads for the voice-overs being done in RP. And the Orbit gum girl is English, too."
"Notice the mistake ( not using the 3rd person ).
I'm inclining towards the idea that this is a spoof too. But then again even if it were it isn't a reflection on the readers but on the Guardian that so many think it could be a genuine article
On the other hand I dredged up this on the anxiety created by the Meerkats success from

I wonder."
From Marketing Magazine.11th August 2009
Peter Jones, tell your girlfriend its not her fault she's a meerkat
"UndergroundMan - I see where you are coming from but I honestly believe that this will be picked up by one of the Mail, Telegraph or Sun 's headline columnists over the next few days and receive much wider publicity than it is currently doing in this humble little corner of CiF. I actually think its a spoof. Deliberately planted by comparethemeerkat.com's meerkating team and will presage a SAVE OUR MEERKAT next phase strategy.
The RIchard Littlejohn piece almost writes itself;
""Those loveable Meerkats from comparethemarket.com are coming under attack from the do-gooding politically correct tendency headquartered in the Farringdon Road. Apparently their ads offended the sensibilities of a Guardian journalist's Ukrainian girlfriend. She called it racist and offensive. Racist? Offensive my arse!! What is this country coming to when we can't even poke a bit of fun at.......etc etc""
Thus creating awareness amongst an audience numbering in the hundreds of thousands if not millions for the brand. As a newcomer to the market their NUMBER ONE meerkating objective will be all about creating buzz and brand awareness.
There are a number of clues including the lack of moderation on here as well as the fact that, phnarr, phnarr, they give this ""journalist"" the same name as the spokesperson for their biggest competitor moneysupermeerkat.com
Also - just take a look at his pic. It looks like its been dredged up from some poor unfortunate soul's crap facebook profile pic. Its a clever sting. But makes me wonder about CiF"
I won't be offended that it is a spoof....where is the address of that press complaints thingy...?
Yeeees..looking at it closely I can see it's a digitally enhanced meerkat...possibly Alexander himself..... clever these meerkats!
"I am getting seriously hacked off with people getting offended by the most stupid pathetic idiotic tiny little things.
anyway, that meerkat is pretty elegant at least by the standards round here. Something to aspire to."
"batz

hang about mate - wasn't it a talking snake that started the whole fucking thing? would we even need advertising if we were in the Garden?"
"Would you have a problem if it was a scouser? A geordie? etc
For you to complain because it is offensive is without a shodow of a doubt one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Just admit you love to complain!"
"*Sigh* I'm only six pages into the comments so far, but I have a question that no one has asked yet.
Where the hell did any of us come up with this notion that we have a 'right' to go through life without ever being offended, anyway? Anyone who is offended that easily has life way too easy."
"This week on CIF: ""Stupid White British Male"" fighting for the right to be offensive.
The victims decide whether it's offensive or not , NOT YOU!!!!!!!
To all Eastern European people outthere, welcome to the UK, as you can see, you have become the new N****rs. Good Luck!"
From UndergroundMan's link:
"PhilippaB:

Hopefully you just switched brands. Or do you confine yourself to the red tent once a month?"
"HeywoodJ:

Clearly, you are not having sex with the right women."
"_AT_Benjine
Yes. However, perhaps the Guardian did not realise it was a spoof either. Peter Jones might exist.
He might have claimed to be offended and might have taken up his complaint with ITV and the ASA.
And he might have known he could take in not only those who want to flash their anti-racist credentials but also the 'political correctness gorn mad' brigade....
On the other hand, had I not taken this article as serious on the author's part I wouldn't bothered about it.
The intentionally humourous articles are often not as funny as the ones that are meant to be serious eg 'Bidisha', Joseph Harker etc"
"Well yes and no...
I can't argue with the idea that the only way you can say if something is inoffensive is by asking if people were offended.
A lot of times when people are I feel that they're being over sensitive, but what has people incensed about this article is the pedantry of the example.
If you have a ratio of not offended to offended in the region of tens of millions to 1, then surely you have to admit, it's probably just one person and maybe his friend's Latvian lodger being a bit oversensitive."
When people start to be irritated by such petty things in the host country, it generally means they are homesick. Talk to her, Peter, or you'll probably come home soon to find a note telling you that she's gone back to Ukraine. Has she been complaining a lot about the food recently, or the way people in Britain dress, or bayonet cap lightbulbs?
"From the comparethemeerkat.com website



I hardly think that a Ukrainian and a Latvian would object to any ad taking the piss out of the Russians, any more than a Brit would object to any ad taking the piss out of an American or an Aussie. In fact, less so.
I tend to agree that this article is an above the line troll."
"_AT_dmckm

Thank you for the remark. As a working class boy with a grammar school education and a scholarship to Oxford, I like to think of myself as educated too.
But I didn't at all say that there is such a thing as a classless society..nor do I believe that there ever will be one. What I DID say was that the Class War (a very different thing) died out about 30 years ago - except in the minds of a few guaradianistas who want to refight the battles of the 60s 70s and 80s and get a different result.
I base this on my own experience (I graduated in 78). And in 30 years in business and commerce, I have never found even the slightest hint that my supposed 'class' counts against me...nor against anyone else in any position in those pursuits...from the most inexperienced to the chief executives.
In fact, reading CiF over the last few months is the only place where I have ever heard 'class' discussed as anything other than a historical curiosity
That's my experience. Reading a selection of your posts on other threads suggests that you however, seem to be obsessed with the topic...hence falling into the trap I mentioned above.
Is there a position of 'ClassFinder General' vacant?"
"I think we all had by this piece, clearly written by the Meerkating department of Compare.
Simples. Click."
"HeywoodJ

You know, that sounds awfully like a euphemism."
"I have googled Peter Jones - all I can find is that dude off Dragon's Den.
I think the Graun have reeled us all in, hook, line and fishing trawler."
"_AT_SuicideByMod
Agreed. The lack of Mod activity is particularly telling. But is it a Graun spoof, or a CompareTheMarket spoof?"
"aaaaghhh, you lucky numptie writing this utter drivel in a week where we are all behaving ourselves.
1 Ukrainian iratated and we should all feel ashamed of ourselves.
Grow up."
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"fridgeman

Not sure. If the latter, it will have to be taken up by the redtops, as noted by someone above, for this really to do the business.
Also, the Graun would have been suckered as well, as I doubt that they would have knowingly a PR stunt likee this. Or would they?"
"Well, obviously Peter Jones' girlfriend has integrated enough to become a humourless, offence seeking idiot who can't even realise that the people whom fun is actually being poked at is not Alexsandr or people with Eastern European accents but everyone else who can't tell the difference between 'meerkat' and 'market'. That's what Alexsandr is complianing about!
Think about it a bit before whinging next time."
"Oh for an edit facility. That should have read:
Also, the Graun would have been suckered as well, as I doubt that they would have knowingly permitted a PR stunt like this. Or would they?"
"_AT_MontanaWildhack
HeywoodJ:
1 : Find a woman with whom you can have a laugh, getting laid's over-rated.
2 : Tunnocks tea-cakes are better than sex.
Clearly, you are not having sex with the right women.
You misinterpret. Sex is a gloriously transcendent expression of what it means to be alive. It's just that Tunnocks' tea-cakes are better. They're that good.
_AT_fridgeman
If not, keep bashing the meerkat.
You know, that sounds awfully like a euphemism.
I was clumsily alluding in that direction. Assuming Peter Jones was being sincere, accusing a computer-generated small mammal of being offensive to half the continent, seems to me the intellectual equivalent of . . . well you get the picture."
"Damn!
So many comments - nobody is going to read mine, but I feel I must say this:
As a Russian I find all parody of Russian accents, way of life, style, popular views, manners, myths, misconceptions, history, achievements, religion and about anything else I can think of perfectly acceptable!
I'll repeat that last part in all caps, so that there would be no mistake here: I FIND IT PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE!
Of course parody can be tasteful or tasteless, insightful or just an ad for the authors ignorance, funny or boring or plain rude, but in any case it remains acceptable.
If it's tasteless I won't like it - and I think I probably won't like the people who will like it, if it is a good parody I will certainly be pleased and even flattered with it.. but under no circumstance would I ask it to be banned from air - unless it's because of its poor rating - i.e. because no one likes it.
So once again: laugh away at us (and at everyone else you like) and let those who are narrow-minded, insecure or (though I've found it to be ""AND"" more often than not) stupid reveal themselves for who they are by complaining!
Cheers!"
"Peter's girlfriend
A solution, Watch only BBC programmes.
Simples."
I wonder if Peter Jones is friends with James Bennett (author of the article on France) which also seems to be going swimmingly.
"If it was meant to be a parody of an eastern European accent, they would have tacked -sky on to the end of every other word (simplsky etc.). That's how you traditionally parody them.
I too am starting to think we've been had. Some other posters got it a long time ago, but I was stupid enough to think that the Graun would never do something like that. Still, I also tend to believe the police version of events, so that shows how gullible I am."
"MontanaWildhack & HetwoodJ
Try having sex with a woman while laughing out loud and eating a Tunnocks tea-cake all at once, all while watching a TV advert! I have - and its overrated!
Hermionegingold What does your last post mean?"
"_AT_fridgeman
.
Graun was expecting a nasty free for all and would have used that as a reason for the stupidly PC modding that pisses everyone off."
"_AT_peitha: ""the people whom fun is actually being poked at is not Alexsandr or people with Eastern European accents but everyone else who can't tell the difference between 'meerkat' and 'market'. ""
A group of people who don't, in fact, exist. I doubt if anyone historically has confused the words ""market"" and ""meerkat"".
Thing is, peitha, it's a joke. The joke is that no such confusion actually exists. The other joke, as someone else (edmundburke?) pointed out, is that meerkats all look the same anyway, so the idea of anyone wanting to compare them is inherently amusing."
If this turns out to be a scam by Compare The Market, and Compare The Market get lots of free advertising because of it, and then the skint Graun follows Murdoch's lead and starts charging, I will be well pissed off.
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"""But the one that really makes me want to smash the TV is that Glade one in which that brat wants to do ""a poo at Paul's"". God know why that has not been pulled.""
You're assuming that ""Paul"" is a child. He could, equally, be a grown man, which places an even yuckier slant to this vile advert."
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"_AT_jamax
Top Banana! Lets stop all taking ourselves too seriously and have a bit of a giggle now and then.Cheers!"
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"I'm with JaneBasingstoke on this..
While I suspect this to be a spoof, I still fail to see the how and why of it all. If it's an inside job, at best, the good folks at the Graun might piss off a whole bunch of ciffers, at worst they really would give Littlejohn something to mull over. And risk a whole bunch of hassle from a financial comparison site somewhere.
If it's a spoof created by comparethemarket (or their ad agency), innocently passed to the Graun and published by them without a second thought, then it's inspired. I think."
"CordeliaM:
I know which post of mine you meant, but quite funny to think you might have been responding to my ""Peter Jones is a..."" post (made me laugh anyway)!
But seriously, I could be wrong, as I'm quite new to all this online newspaper posting (only registered a user-profile a month or two ago!) I was just using 'deduction' to doubt Hermionegingold's theory."
"Piratetwin
More like everyone is having a good time at a party nice food, fairlylights in the garden, everyone a bit tipsy, having a laugh and a joke and then someonehas to go and spoil it all."
Is it a diversion? Is all the real action going on somewhere else?
"So, are we soon to hear from the good people of South Wales and Plymouth about the ""offensive"" Aviva adverts starring Paul Whitehouse?
Sorry if someone's already made that obvious point, by the way. I'm just gladdened to read that it's not just me that found this po-faced article completely absurd.
(btw all Aviva ads are offensive, but not simply because of the accents!)"
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Someone should advertise this shindig on Facebook.
"Now I realise that this article has been written by a bunch of fuckin monkeys!
When I say ""a bunch of fuckin monkeys"", I mean 'an infinate number of monkeys' with typewriters (or pc's)....
...usually, this (infinate number) of monkeys, end up writing bog-standard Shakespeare plays, but yesterday, due to the laws of 'chaos theories' and stuff, they inadvertantly wrote this article about Meerkats. Then, one monkey inadvertantly strayed into the Guardian offices when noone was around and accidentally uploaded the story with a USB stick!!!
Can you believe it??? What the fuck are the chances of that happening eh? a billion-to-one? And the Guardian haven't even noticed yet. It just goes to show that infinity (unlimited monkeys) is really massive - especially in internet cyberspace!"
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"I think it's the first taste of freedom he's had for a while.
Fly rod, spread your wings and fly."
"_AT_piratetwin
""He's alright once you get to know him""
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqrg_VCPgAQ"
I found this article so ridiculous that I double-checked with some of my friends (a Pole, a Russian and two Lithuanians) whether they found it offensive: it had never even crossed their minds. In fact, they all said that they liked the advert. No disrespect to his girlfriend, if she was offended then she has a right to complain. But honestly. In the advert, Aleksandr the meerkat complains that many people come to his website by mistake, confusing compare the market with compare the meerkat. Mr Jones claims that this pokes fun at the Eastern European pronunciation of ‘market. But as other posters have pointed out, ‘meerkat and ‘market sound just as different in Aleksandrs accent as they do in RP. And think about it, the joke couldnt possibly be that these web-users who come to the wrong site were confused by Aleksandrs substandard pronunciation, as Mr Jones seems to think is the case: where would they have heard it? The first thing we hear from Aleksandr is his exasperated plea NOT to confuse the two. So the web-users must have made the mistake BEFORE THEY EVER HEARD Aleksandrs mellow yet magisterial tones. Presumably they confused the written forms of the words. And as one wise poster pointed out, its a talking meerkat in a velvet smoking-jacket for petes sake. Anyway, this thread has really made my day, thanks you guys!
"Almost 500 posts about advertising and not one about the sexist way women are portrayed by the industry.
And with an ad for Mad Men immediately below the comments, that's amazing."
So whats sexist about a fucking meerkat?
"Due to a technical problem, Jon Canter's piece headlined The feelbad factor, which was published on 12 July 2009, became overwritten on Comment is free by a piece from today headlined In the grip of mansomnia.
We've fixed this now and The feelbad factor has been restored, it's here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/12/comedy-synecdoche-television
In the grip of mansomnia is now here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/24/jon-canter-mansomnia
Please go to the new Jon Canter piece to comment on that. Moderators will remove off-topic comments from this Peter Jones thread. Apologies for the confusion.
Jonathan (night editor, guardian.co.uk)"
"_AT_JonathanHaynes
Thank you for helping debunk one version of the Guardian-spoof theory. Personally I wouldn't go with the Guardian-spoof theory anyway, the article isn't funny enough and it isn't April the 1st.
Perhaps you could help with the Compare-The-Market-spoof theory. If Peter Jones is who he claims he is, and his motives are what he says they are, his article is extremely counter-productive, it is only helping advertise Compare The Market meerkats more, and encouraging people who would otherwise not have cared to support the Compare The Market meerkats.
Peter Jones could be an innocent who has just mis-pitched his argument. Or he could be part of a viral marketing campaign.
What is the provenance of the article?"
Peter you don't think this was code for "you take me for granted"? "You don't pay attention to me anymore"? "You haven't bought me something wonderful for a long time"? "If you want the same quality sex we had in the beginning you'd better get with the program"?
oh yes - a Polish lady I know changes the shits once a week.
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"Once again a modern liberal show himself to not only be unable to get a joke, but to be completely devoid of all humour whatsoever. If you hadn't noticed, airline food jokes are a bit passe but if making a comparison between 'market' and 'meerkat' pronunciations is too edgy for you, please, step out of the public forum - it's not for you.
Have you also written complaints to studios whenever an English accent is ridiculed? Whenever The Pub Landlord makes a joke about the French? Mitchell & Webb taking the piss out of homelessness? FFS man, please, think of something to write about before mashing at your keyboard in this way."
"Oh do pipe down, your comment is nearly as laughable as the article itself.
So, have we found out yet, is it a spoof?"
how can a post requesting information on how to complain about this cif piece be removed for being off topic or offensive...because i am serious...perhaps the mods should remove the article for being offensive..
"Well, I'm disappointed. I thought the Guardian might finally be having a big old chuckle at its own image. But no, it seems there really are sinister forces at play in the world of market-comparison advertising. They'd have got away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling Guardian columnists.
It seems this one is a freebie for Richard Littlejohn, Jon Gaunt, and any other sad-sack with a bucket of turds where their soul used to be.
They'll stick in ""bed-wetting"" ""Guardianista"" ""sandal-wearing"" and all the other phrases that the shit-brained tedious bastards have been using every week for the past two decades, and it's all business as usual .
Meanwhile the Observer goes down the tubes, and the Guardian follows close behind.
When the Guardian does fold, are the editors going to scratch their heads and say ""But I don't understand, we exposed the culturally offensive meerkat?"""
"_AT_HeywoodJ
One of the reasons why I don't believe this to be a Graun-spoof is that it isn't funny enough. Instead the article is like the Beeb quiz show ""Would I lie to you?"" where the fibs are just at the edge of credibility.
Oh and if Littlejohn et al weigh in with ""Guardianistas oversensitive"" and then the only oversensitive individual turns out to be a fictional girlfriend then they'll have been had by the viral marketeers too."
"When I was living in a certain Eastern European country, there was a TV advert for a British-owned insurance company. It featured red-coated fox hunters, and the slogan was ¨tradition, trust, responsibility.¨ As a British citizen, I fond this advert insulting to me, especially as I am against foxhunting.
In general, the British are beginning to become the butt of jokes in Eastern Europe as information on life in the UK flows back home and the previous image of the English dzentelmeni is finally put to rest. And the criticism of Britain is savage and almost vile I have to say.
Here is the standard East European criticism of the UK.
1 The women are fat and ugly.
2. The weather is terrible
3. The food is worse
4. There are too many Asian people (known as Babayi or Indusi (Hindus) in Slavic languages.
5. There are too many Black people (known as Negri)
6. Children are badly behaved
7. Everyone dresses badly
8. The British are uncultured (to call an East European who has been to university nekulturny is probably one of the worst things you could say.)"
No offence intended LatimerAlder, but I would have thought that someone as educated as you are would have known that the concept of 'class war' has got absolutely nothing to do with the way in which individuals from different classes relate to one another on a personal level.
"JaneBasingstoke

and then again you write

I get the message you don't think it is a spoof, however by continually writing and posting that opinion will not convince me.
Why does a spoof have to be hilarious? It could be tongue -in -cheek, mocking, a hoax, and this particular article might fulfil all those criteria.
Why? Because Peter Jones sees himself as a budding journalist?
Why can't a spoof just be ridiculous, so ridiculous that it is unbelievable that anyone could possibly believe the rubbish they are writing but even worse than that so many people are taken in by it?
I cannot believe that this article is real...perhaps I need a rest away from Cif for a few months...yes.... a holiday would be good."
"This article needs to be looked at from a TEFL point of veiw
Your Ukrainian girlfriend says, ""I don't like this advert, it is very offensive to me.""
The TEFL teacher answer is, ¨a better phase would be, I find it very offensive.¨ ¨
The phrase ¨it is very offensive to me,"" represents language interference from the mother tonue as in most Slavic languages the construction [dative of personal pronoun + adjective] is very common, but it does not quite work in English."
"_AT_Richardlith
In general, the British are beginning to become the butt of jokes in Eastern Europe as information on life in the UK flows back home and the previous image of the English dzentelmeni is finally put to rest. And the criticism of Britain is savage and almost vile I have to say.
What the deuce?!! You mean those blighters don't feel inferior to us? That's the last time I'm defending them against fictional meerkats. We'll see how well they cope without good old British intervention."
"_AT_CordeliaM

Not trying to convert you.

Well you get that message wrong. I do think it's a spoof, just not a Graun-spoof. It ticks far more boxes as a CompareTheMarket-spoof than a Graun-spoof.
The comment to Haynes in particular was a response to last night's moderation. Posts that were about the Graun-spoof theory, both for- and against- were deemed off-thread and heavily moderated. Haynes's own comment replaced several debunking a misinterpretation of a cock-up with the Jon Canter piece.
If it does turn out to be a Graun-spoof it would be disappointing that it is not funny in itself (the comments it has inspired have been far funnier).
However if it turns out to be a CompareTheMarket-spoof the consequences are far more serious. Superficially the story has borderline credibility. I do not want to have to ask the question ""is this a viral marketing con"" every time some previously unknown member of the public raises an issue."
"JaneBasingstoke
Apologies, misunderstood you, you are right if it is a compare the market spoof that is a completely different ballgame. Quite a few of my posts were deleted for the very reason you say. I requested a response from Above the Line, on this thread and also on what do you want to talk about thread perhaps if it is a compare the market spoof the Guardian may not want to admit to it?"
"_AT_CordeliaM
That could be short sighted of them.
Firstly it would at least prevent another paper outing Peter Jones at the Guardian's expense.
Secondly there need to be limits to viral marketing campaigns. Joke websites like CompareTheMarket.com and the ""outtakes"" of the advert posted on Youtube are one thing. Advertisers posing as ordinary members of the public, with no giveaway context, are not. I have a similar issue with paid lobbyists posing as ordinary members of the public. When we catch the buggers at it they need to be given a hard time, they impact directly on the freedom of speech of the real general public."
"i'd agree with JaneBasinstoke.
This piece does not reflect well upon the Guardian in any scenario:
a) It's for real in which case it is just dreadful, not worthy of publication, as righfully and comically pointed out by so very many.
b) It's a Guardian spoof, in which case it of itself isn't funny enough to warrant misleading readers.
c) It's viral marketing by comparethemarket, in which case big questions must be asked about the paper's commissioning strategy and system."
"_AT_alisdaircameron
The Guardian's ""Comment is Free"" policy of accepting one-off contributions from members of the public is intrinsically susceptible to viral campaigns. In depth pre-publication vetting is probably too expensive, and unfair to the majority of innocent contributors.
Instead it might be more effective for the Guardian to investigate cases like this when flagged up after publication. Reputable companies cannot afford to be caught lying to the general public, or imposing on the real general public's freedom of speech by creating fake members of the public.
If this article turns out to be a viral campaign, then so far the Guardian has done the right thing. So far. Now the Guardian needs to investigate the Peter Jones case, and publish the results."
"After futher consideration, I've come to the conclusion that this article came about through PJ's girfriend testing his love for her.
My first girlfriend told me that if I loved her that I would let her date other people. I did. My next girlfriend told me that if I loved her that I would go to the library on her behalf and tell them that I had accidentally set two of her borrowed books on fire whilst engaging in a party game that went badly wrong. To make it believable I actually had to singe my own facial hair. All this because she left them on a train. My third girlfriend said that if I loved her I would see her as my best friend and reminded me that ""friends help you move but best friends help you move bodies."" Perhaps I shouldn't have put that one into print. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that men may be put to the test to show their love for their partners in all different ways. So, forgive me PJ, for originally viewing you as off your trolley. It's now clear to see, you were just put to the love test and you passed the test. Obviously the downside is that you did so in public."
"Anyone who enjoys comedy English accents should catch the episode of Murder She Wrote that's just finishing on BBC-1.
It's full of American actors whose idea of an English accent loosely borders on Australian, and one of the few actors in it who could actually do one for real, Patrick McNee, is saddled with having to do a hideous Irish accent instead.
Laughable ... and not a meerkat in sight."
"_AT_oatcuisine
My third girlfriend said that if I loved her I would see her as my best friend and reminded me that ""friends help you move but best friends help you move bodies.""
What . . . The . . . Fu. . . ?
I once had a girlfriend who said if I loved her I'd go with her to see
'Bridget Jones; The Edge Of Reason.' I thought that was the worst example of emotional blackmail. Until now."
I am very naive about such things I had never heard of a viral advertising campaign before, and I doubt I would recognise a paid lobbyist unless he/she had a sign tattooed on his/her forehead and possibly a neon sign as well. I have no idea what signs I would be looking for on CiF.
The worst my wife can come up with is that if I really love her, I would go out an buy her Tampax. She doesn't seem to have noticed that I'm now middle aged, so absolutely nothing embarrasses me any more.
"Richardlith:
""Here is the standard East European criticism of the UK.
1 The women are fat and ugly.
2. The weather is terrible
3. The food is worse
4. There are too many Asian people (known as Babayi or Indusi (Hindus) in Slavic languages.
5. There are too many Black people (known as Negri)
6. Children are badly behaved
7. Everyone dresses badly
8. The British are uncultured (to call an East European who has been to university nekulturny is probably one of the worst things you could say.)""
Good post. Also, its funny how in the last few years they have all flocked to the UK in droves.......despite their petty critisisms of it (only, some started to return when ressession hit the UK)!
Also, the basic ingedients of British food are just the same in all of Europe, tomatos, potatos, beef, pasta, onions, blah, blah, blah - it's just how you assemble/cook it. So really, there's no such thing as 'British' food?
CordiliaM/JaneBasingstoke:
Note that this article hasn't been added to the 'most commented' section of the Cif page, so there must be something amiss."
"Why do Polish people on R4 always speak with a Russian accent (eg. Hut 42) ?
In my limited experience a Polish accent is much more clipped - and no doubt Polish people might find it ""insulting"" to be confused aurally with their former oppressors ..."
"_AT_PhilippaB:

No, ""yeyo"" is one word ..."
"You know I don't think the ad agency just sat down one day and thought
'Hey, Eastern Europeans can't pronounce the work Market properly. Let's ridicule the hell out of them. Ha ha ha'
It was probably more like
'So, what can we do with this incredibly dull brand? Hang on, Meerkat, that sounds a bit like Market. Compare the Market / Compare the Meerkat. Nice one (High Fives). HA HA HA'
The fact that have failed grasp the basic thought processes of modern day ad agency creatives makes your article all the more pointless. Well done."
Peter you seem to be losing the run of yourself.........
You are talking out of your rear end. Cheers.
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"jonhowe1985
You are not alone in feeling angry, I have written two requests for confirmation that this article is a spoof and/or viral advertising and have also sent an email to the cif moderators, no-one has had the courtesy to respond. I feel like a mug and have not read the Guardian online today at all and instead have read other online newspapers.
The Cif comments from the posters are on the whole funny, witty and clever unlike the writers of many of the articles.
The etiquette thread is a sham, the editors want the posters to behave in a courtesy way but they themselves are behaving like ill-educated thugs. They are not worth your consideration and certainly not worth raising your blood pressure they don't give a hoot."
"Perhaps we need to award below-the-line contributors a prize.
I was thinking of a small wooden urn, containing the burnt remains of CIF's credibility."
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"Seem to be off the radar again, peeps.
(""Peeps"". Stavros's catchphrase. Geddit?)"
i couldn't read all 500+ comments but I assume I'm not the first to see this as a joke? Nobody could be that up themselves.
ok, i got to this late, but why does peter jones not have any articles listed under his name? did they get removed in an effort to avoid further embarrassment, is he a first time writer, or is it confirmation of a spoof?
Hmm. I dunno whether the ATL piece is authentic or not, but reading comments from some of the male posters about what they've done to 'prove their love', I have come to the conclusion that there are a lot of men out there who would have been lucky to have had me. Never in my wildest dreams would I ask a man to humiliate himself to prove that he cared for me. That's just wrong.
"_AT_MontanaWildhack:
Damn! And I already married!"
Curses, we NEED an edit button here ... I meant that "I AM already married "..
<AlanPartridge> I've got a girlfriend </AlanPartridge>
Frogstar - yeyo - knew that - was trying to be too clever to make my little yoyo joke. oops. Mind you, in comedy terms, I'd struggle to approach the quality displayed ATL...
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Have I stepped into a time-space continuum and it Is the first of April? If this isn't a parody, I think whoever runs this section of The Guardian needs a long, long holiday from editing. As does the author from writing. Like forever.
This article is a spoof, right?
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"How about the Italian cooking sauce ads with the puppets and the ITS A ME, A-LUIGI, HOWA BOUTA NICE-A COOKIN SAUCE-A?
Daft? Yep. Obvious? Unfunny? Yep.
Racist? *hardly* - just naff.
Strikes me you've been asked to write the obligatory self-righteous CiF piece while Tanya Gold pops off to research why men are all bastards this week."
er...is it April the 1st?
"PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS A JOKE, please.
Unfortunately I fear it isnt.
There is nothing offence in this advert and certainly nothing racist.
Where is anybody insulted or demeaned?
Also, please tell me HOW ON EARTH this advert is targeting, adversely, any section of the community.
People like you with your over officious PC rhetoric are helping to destroy this country."
"can the guardian deal with this ..a poster suggests emails to the guardian regarding this rubbish have been ignored...i have asked twice for information to whom WE complain about stuff like this piece..and someone ..it might even be me.. is going to pass this on to more hostile media sources.
please firstly say whether this is serious..and if it is explain why such abject tosh made it onto the page.."
oh and why has it dropped off the most commented list...it should be second..x
It would be interesting to see what the authors opinion was on the really very funny 'Goodness Gracious Me' sketch about 'Going for an English' was?
"So now we have to change our sense of humour to accommodate easily offended Ukrainians?
The Meerkat ad is not only the most pleasantly humorous advert on TV, it is also the most effective as well. Comparethemarket.com must have done very well from this ad. Only a moron could take offence at this masterpiece of its kind.
What next? The Equalities thugs take Churchill Insurance to court for giving a nodding dog a broad northern accent?
These two ads have more humour in them than all the 'new' comedians pampered by the BBC combined."
"Hmm,
Righteous indignation.
Political correcter than thou.
Fallacy of argument by authority because he has an Eastern-European girlfriend.
Doesn't fully address the issue of species-ism (Who's speaking up for the meerkats in all of this?)
All in all, this wins some sort of prize for the dumbest article so far this year. Come on Madeline Bunting, there's still time to outdo it!"
Well if there's one thing the Guardian is good for it's nonsense like this. Racist meerkats, bloody hell.
"I am stunned by the open ended idiocy of this article.
I am offended - who can I complain to??????"
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"Hey Mirthcontrol and any other interested posters
The debate on this article is also continuing on 'what would you like to talk about'"
And what about those Australian beer ads giving the quite misleading impression that all Australian men think about is beer, barbies and birds? Wait a minute...
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Given that not one person from any part of this publication appears to have dealt with the comments here I can only conclude that this was in fact supposed to be a serious article and that standards at this once belooved paper have fallen to a new low....
Oh my Cif look at the anger....
This article really is political corectness GAWN MAAAAAD!!
or even "correctness"
"""A few weeks ago, my girlfriend.........""
That's as far as I got before realising that this article is a spoof."
Making light of multi-cultural stuff is far better than the alternatives and for every time I hear the Sheila's Wheels ad or some other comedian with 'You call that a knife', at least it's better than all the unimaginative types that go for the far less entertaining 'it's not that I don't like Australians, it's just....'.
<Brian Connelly />It's a puuuuuuppppet!!!!!</Brian Connelly>
"This article, and the blogosphere-wide derision which will follow it, will have the effect of Viagra on a wilting ad campaign and make a national hero of a cartoon character.
I wonder if such a result ever crossed the mind of the Author?"
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"I'm sorry, is this article meant to be a joke? Someone's girlfriend tells him that she finds something offensive which 99.99% of the rest of the planet recognise as a perfectly harmless piece of mild humour (and don't think for a moment that there aren't equivalent jokes at the expense of Western Europeans elsewhere in the world) and he decides to turn it into a Guardian article??
My wife was mildly irked the other day when ASDA had run out of milk, so does that mean I get to place an article in the International Herald Tribune? Perhaps I should involve the UN? And if they fail to take my complaint seriously? Then they are clearly part of an agro-military-industrial complex threatening global segregation and ethnic cleansing.
I'm sorry, Mr Jones, your views are skewed by your girlfriend, your response is disproportionate and your editor should be struck off from the NUJ for allowing this to get anywhere near a news website."
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What a load of pompous twaddle. If people can't think of writing something better than this, I suggest they don't bother at all.
"""a significant part of the British population""
That's pushing it a bit (or even a lot). Eastern Europeans (even combining all nationalities into one group) is still a very small percentage of the British population."
I suspect this whole column is a parody. Someone trying to be like Chris Morris.
So "Peter Jones" wrote this piece did he? Trying to strike a blow for Money Supermarket at the expense of Compare the Market, I reckon....
"CordeliaM: ""Any links to the outtakes?""
Sadly no, it was a Sky red-button thing.
It's probably been youtubed by now though."
"And so it already has...
:-)"
Presumably the equally amusing SMASH ads of some years ago were pulled because they were offensive to vertcally challenged Martians?
Peter - you're being incredibly racist by suggesting that all Eastern Europeans have the same accent.
"Seems the non-net savvy Peter Jones and his Eastern European friends have got hold of the wrong end of the parody stick.
It's perfectly h'obvious to me that it's the plethora of 'dating/matchmaking' sites and scam spammers from that part of the world that are being parodied, not their nationality/accents.
Get a grip and stop seeking out offence where none exists. :("
Simples!
"This man is a disgrace to the Guardian as he clearly has no sense of fun
I've never ever commented on anything before - but his article was outrageous and the most pompous thing I've ever read in my whole life!
We all love Alexandr. He is the best thing on the telly.
We love Sergei too
Simples"
Behave
Ah, that explains it then... financial sector = humourless twunts. ;-)
"Cant beliv you all bigot...
Petre Jone has good point - pupet take pis from me an make feel stupid!! I nearly choke on my Urske!
Good poin u make Petre- and you welcom to my wife anytime yuo come to visit my cuntry! Shame on all posters!
Thank
goodbuy."
"that meerkat looks just like a pikey.
(not really but i thought i would widen the merit of the discussion for no apparent reason, 'coz you guys, it seems, have nothing better to do)"
"As a hairless American body-builder, I am offended by the depiction of hairless American Body Builders on Little Britain USA. Furthermore, my girlfriend, who is a working-class British teenager, is offended by Vicky Pollard.
My dad, who is a hotelier who suffers from anger management problems due to childhood trauma which he is working with a counsellor to overcome, is offended by Basil Fawlty. My mother, who works hard editing a fashion magazine and has an alcohol-abuse problem is offended by Patsy from Absolutely Fabulous and my best friend, who is a lovable and humourous Essex native who struggles with poor self-confidence and obesity is offended by Smithy from Gavin and Stacy.
As such, since absolutely everything in the world is clearly offensive, I think that the only answer is to immediately ban everything.
I would suggest that we also wrap ourselves in cotton wool, and roll around the floor humming, but I don't wish to offend people who already wrap themselves in cotton wool and roll around the floor humming by having them inadvertently think I am making fun of them and not validating their lifestyle choice, so I won't."
still no response from the cif "people"
"If CIF wont comment, maybe Peter Jones could?
Peter, are you:
A) in the employment of comparethemarket engaging in some cheeky viral marketing, or
B) an exceptionally bad writer, intellectual pygmie and general bore?"
"ha ha - this is a classic! Well done, you had me for a second. Brilliant parody of the ludicrous ""we should be offended by this"" types on the Left.
You're 4 months and 22 days late with this one though - it's not April Fool's Day anymore. Presumably that's dateist though..."
I'm happy for you that this gave you a chance to score points with your girlfriend, but don't you think you are being a little po-faced?
I want an explanation, but the reason I suspect it might not be viral marketing is that it lacks any spark of the charm and humour of the original ads. It's either a genuine article or 10th-rate satire that slipped through the editing process, I reckon. And I don't know which would be more depressing...
Get ready for PJ to issue a statement declaring the whole thing a parody ion itself, back peddling furiously as he attempt to distance himself from himself.
perhaps he will try to sue us all for libel..or get us arrested for upsetting his "girlfriend"
"You seem to be confused over this.
Firstly the accent is Russian (as is made clear from the website), not Polish or any other Eastern European dialect.
Secondly, they are not suggesting that the Russians cannot pronounce market. They are not even suggesting that Russians pronounce market - meerkat. In fact, in the advert the Russian Meerkat pronounces market and meerkat perfectly.
The suggestion is that people in the UK are looking for the comparethemarket and have got it wrong and found compare the meerkat by accident. If anything, it is about british people that have gone to the wrong site.
The joke is that there is a very similar site run by a russian meerkat and it is british people that have made a mistake, if anything.
In no level of the advert does it make a joke on how people pronounce market. You seem to not understand the basic point of the advert. Think it through again.
Although I guess if people have to explain the joke to you, you probably are less likely to find it funny.
NO wonder the complaint was thrown out. It doesn't properly relate to the advert and the eastern europeans (who cannot defend themselves) are not even part of the parody - so no wonder they haven't complained!!!"
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"Dear Guardian and fellow CiF posters
I offer the following circumstantial evidence that ""Peter Jones"" is working for CompareTheMeerkat.com and is abusing the CiF open door policy for one-off contributions from the general public.
1. The coincidence of his name. The ""Dragon"" Peter Jones is currently promoting the rival MoneySupermarket.com
2. Despite being very articulate, he has failed to convince even the most sympathetic Guardian poster of his cause. Instead he has acted as a recruiting sergeant for the meerkat cause, with some posters even giving links to the advert's ""bloopers"". Who Benefits? CompareTheMarket.com.
3. This is related to point 2 above. His article is riddled with little psychological nudges in favour of CompareTheMeerkat.com.
He informs us that the adverts in question have been thoroughly vetted for racism.
He informs us hat the adverts in question are so well made that some ITV bigwig loves them.
He then refers to ""a sector of the population who would be unlikely to fight back"". Which could just as easily be seen as applying to CGI meerkats as Ukrainians. (Rubbish for both, by the way. Ukrainians are not victims. And the CGI meerkats have the real world backing of CompareTheMarket.com.)
And then in his last paragraph he appeals for more political correctness. No one does that. No one. The term ""political correctness"" in an anti-racist context only applies when someone thinks anti-racist measures have gone too far.
4. He informs us that his Eastern European contacts have found it offensive. This is not reflected in the comments of the real world Eastern European posters, or the comments of posters with real world Eastern European contacts.
5. He informs us that the advert is based on Eastern Europeans and Russians pronouncing ""market"" as ""meerkat"". But the Russian accented meerkat in the advert clearly pronounces ""market"" as ""market"".
6. The CompareTheMeerkat.com campaign is already using a large number of conventional viral marketing techniques. There's an actual CompareTheMeerkat.com website. There's a Facebook page. There's a Twitter account. There's a Youtube account with ""bloopers"" from the adverts. And there's a petition to get ""Simples"" into the Oxford English Dictionary. (That last is a bit of a con in its own right, the use of the meerkat's catchphrase is already sufficient for it to get into the OED.)"
"You're a numpty, simples *squeak*
Have you really got nothing better to do, while people are losing their jobs, livelyhoods, stuggling to pay bills and buy food, you are moaning about a random advert about meercats.
again,,, numpty"
"This really stupid article made look up comparethemeerkat.com
http://www.comparethemeerkat.com
Sheer marketing genius!"
Is it April 1st? This cant be a serious article lol
So can I get this straight - we mind if Polish and other eastern Europeansaccents are parodied on TV ads but we are happy for them to empty our dustbins, wait on us in restraurants and sweep our streets?
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Has no-one added that Peter Jones (of Dragons Den fame) is the face for another comparison site.
"Cheers Undergroundman from yer link
""Mark Vile, marketing director at Comparethemarket,""
Vile, a marketing manager, you could not make it up..."
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"Jay
Sorry about this but I can't resist...

As a general rule when suggesting intellectual pygmy status it's considered good form to spell pygmy properly.
Right I'll just get back on my plinth in pedants' corner and chuck shit at passing tourists."
"Firstly, meerkats dont come from Eastern Europe, they come from southern Africa.
Secondly, if your Ukrainian girlfriend really does pronounce ‘market as ‘meer-kat then she probably has a speech impediment.
Thirdly, you are doing little to dispel the stereotype of Britain being a nation of uptight whingers."
"Polecat,
All very fair, squire, in keeping with the Habib rule of pedantry it was justified on the grounds that i was accusing another of idiocy. Poor form on my behalf, I admit."
I think you're an horrendous cliched parody of the 'liberal' as an effette winging sop, no doubt planted by the Daily Mail. I find this offensive so shall be complaining to Press Association to have you removed from view forthwith.
It's nowhere near as offensive as the Michael Winner eSure adverts. Not quite sure what accent he's trying to parody in those.
"Peter Jones has done a great job drumming up support for CGI meerkats, hasn't he? I wonder what his e-mail address might be:
Advertising_AT_CompareTheMarket.com
Recruitment-Sergeant_AT_CompareTheMeerkat.com
Peter-Jones_AT_VCCP.com"
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"JaneBasingstoke
Thanks for your comments, why do you think Cif people are not responding?
They are monitoring comments because, for example, the comment from TurminderXuss was removed about 20 minutes ago?
Any ideas?"
"""Another thing, I'm currently learning Japanese. You'll probably know that there are lots and lots of things I can't pronounce properly in Japanese, not least their tapped-tongue R/L sound. I find it difficult to believe I'd take any offence if someone Japanese pointed that out, even if it was in an advert on TV. It's play, it's poking fun, and it might be accent-ist, but it's definitely not racist.""
I live in Japan and there are plenty of adverts with Japanese pronounced deliberately very poorly by foreigners for laughs. Annoying, yes. Racist? Certainly not. The term racist is bandied about too casually these days.
Is there any more point to this ludicrous article than ""Get me! My bird's Ukrainian!"""
you know what, I'm totally offended by this article's victimising tone. Never heard an Eastern-European say meerkat for market, either and I'm one of them (not a meerkat). The adverts are very funny. Lighten up now :) Simples.
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"_AT_CordeliaM
The moderators have a full time job, and they are not in a position to respond on behalf of the Graun as a whole. I expect the moderators have passed on posters concerns as to the actual identity of ""Peter Jones"" and haven't yet been given a response to pass back to us.
I wouldn't expect an immediate response anyway. Even if they have the resources to investigate Peter Jones and are convinced that it is appropriate to do so they are hardly going to get an instant result."
Oh this is brilliant. It simply has to be a parody of the professionally offended!
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"You weren't offended until somewhere told you, you should be?
Simple."
I wonder if Stephen Hawking gets offended every time the Darleks appear on Doctor Who.
This is utterly ridiculous - I've never met a single eastern European who mispronounces "market" as "meerkat", or anything close. The advert may be tiresome, but the only person making ill-informed generalisations here is Peter Jones.
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I get offended by people who can't spell 'Dalek'... ;-)
I hate the ad. But it is not racist in any way and the author is factually wrong to say they are targeting eastern europeans. If anything the meerkat sounds Turkish or North African to me. The author is also completely wrong to say that eastern europeans pronounce 'Market' as ' Meerkat' . Clutching at straws with this article.
"middleyouth
I get offended by people who can't spell 'Dalek'... ;-)
Christ almighty, a Dr Who fan and a pedant."
"This is priceless! This guy has surely got to be in Compare the Market's advertising team - there can be no other explanation.
In any event, even if we accepted the premise that Ukranians pronounce ""market"" like ""meerkat"" (a premise that stretches the bounds of credibility miles past breaking-point... but bear with me), what exactly is offensive about being compared to Count Alexander Orlov, the fictional Meerkat? Not only is he irresistibly cute, but he appears to be extremely wealthy and successful. Plenty of us would gladly trade places with him.
I'm really struggling to see how Mr. Jones can be anything other than a Grade A wind-up merchant, I really am. If he was being serious for even a nano-second, then he desperately needs to get out more.
Simples!"
I'm offended that I clicked on this link expecting an article by the boring guy from The Dragons Den.
"The main sentence in this article was ""would this advert be allowed if the accents were stereotypical Afro Carribbean or Indian"". That was it basically, yes or no. However, I last looked at the replies on Saturday and was extremely disappointed to find that they were juvenile at best and highly abusive at the other end of the scale. I stand by my article 100% and thank the team at the Guardian online for publishing it.  I have been informed that there is some kind of conspiracy theory circulating that I actually work for comparethemarkets.com and that the Guardian has been duped into publishing my article. As the article advocates the removal of the advert from TV I find this perverse logic of the highest order. Sorry to disappoint but I am just a normal guy working in London and my article has no other motive than to address the issues stated in it. The only people to have been duped here are not the Guardian but anybody who genuinely bought into this ridiculous theory.
 
    The article was not about political correctness, it was about showing those that deem themselves to be so smugly politically correct that they have scored an own goal. The article was not about accents either as Russian accents are used on TV to advertise vodka all the time.
 
    There are more of these adverts coming out in the Autumn and thereafter a film so time will tell how they will eventually be received and perceived. As is so often the case with TV programmes and adverts though it can be decades before we eventually look back and see what should have been so obvious at the time."
"Why is it that when I tune into the business news channels city people are often boasting to each other about how the high levels of immigration into the UK is keeping wage inflation down, giving us an advantage over competitors like France? Are they lying to each other?
Noam Chomsky once said that business news is the best news for finding out what's really going on in the world."
"""Yet, contrary to tabloid hysteria, we are not being swamped with immigrants - nor are they a threat. Fewer than 10% of people in Britain were born abroad.""
-------------------------------
It's true that less than 10% of the British population was born abroad but the immigrants don't spread out evenly do they?
They tend to gather in the big cities which are already crowded.
There were about 1.7 million immigrants in London in 2001 and it has likely increased substantially since then.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/around_britain/html/london.stm
In some big cities in the Netherlands, such as Amsterdam and Rotterdam, the native Dutch people account for less than half of the population aged 18 and younger. The youth demographics of today reflect the future of the overall society in the future.
What's it like in the big city schools in Britain today? What proportion of those school kids are native Brits?"
"Correction to grammar in previous post.
'The youth demographics of today reflect what the overall society will be like in the future.'"
Check out the respected commentator Martin Wolf in the Financial Times for a more nuanced view http://www.ft.com/cms/s/ecfb4a6c-4f16-11db-b600-0000779e2340.html In any event you competely misrepresent the scale of immigration and ignore the effects on the indigenous population. A quote from Labour MP John denham from a piece on migration thats on his website www.johndenham.org.uk - "Local unemployment has risen by over 25% in the past year and there are real fears that the 'hard to employ' - lone parents, those on Invalidity Benefit and ex-offenders - are being squeezed out of the labour market. In some occupations, particularly construction, wages have fallen by around 50% over the past two years." By "US" I suppose you refer to the self-contented middle classes in the "protected" professions who bought into the property market before prices were pushed up out of reach of most of us - A nice comfy piece for them.....
"London has always been a city of immigrants, from the French Huguenots, to eastern European Jews, Indians and so on. I am pretty, much the only born and bred Londoner I know.
Large sections of all those groups have gone on to contribute greatly to the British economy. I agree with the article, the more the better."
"Mr Legrain's article depresses me utterly. He is the epitome of 'Davos Man' - highly educated, highly paid, cosmopolitan and profoundly disdainful of the parochial simpletons who are unable or unwilling to adapt to the exciting, high-tech, turbo-charged, multicultural new world.
Mass immigration on the scale witnessed in the last decade is making life worse for most British people - and they know it. That's why black-is-white propaganda like Mr Legrain's is profoundly counterproductive. It's bad enough to be shafted without also being told you're imagining it. Still, I can think of at least one person who will read the article with a big smile on his face - BNP Fuhrer Nick Griffin."
"I agree with the thrust of the article. But I would say that often migration affects the sending country most badly. Yes you have remittances, but the drain of professional people from a nation is often crippling. An international organisation, an NGO or a government may train a doctor or a nurse in Nigeria or Mexico, the Philippines or Thailand, but before you know it, as soon as they are trained they are working in a hospital in Erdington or Wolverhampton, Trenton or Atlantic City! It may be good for the NHS, but it sure as hell isn't much good for the nation who loses a good doctor as soon as s/he is trained. Germany too are losing tons of nurses to the UK as the UK pays its trainee nurses far more believe it or not.
Migration is often very, very bad for a lot of developing countries that lose self-starting, professional people, while increasing the reliance of those left behind on to corrupt, failing, self-serving governments who use migration as a safety valve and so easing the pressure for domestic reform. If you are interested in international development, migration is a problem to be solved."
While I agree that there is a lot of hysteria fueled by the press, I also agree with most of the above comments. Immigration isn't and never was a problem for the middle classes. Try competing for blue collar jobs in a town where the employment agency has an office in Warsaw and boasts of the amount of Polish people it brings over. If most are single people who only stay in the country part-time why is our local catholic school now over subscribed? Flexible labour markets don't benefit the indigenous workers. So the bosses and priests are happy and middle class columnist can patronise working classes intransigence - all must be well with the world
"Top man, Philippe! Finally some sense from an economist who knows what he's talking about (though maybe the social impact of immigration should be left to other experts).
Those who attack the author with emotion and rhetoric are probably devoid of any training in micoreconomics or international trade and are simply not qualified to critique his economic arguments at least. Funny how London, the greatest magnet for immigration, has done amazingly well out of it, with a GDP higher than the whole of Belgium. The capital subsidises the rest of the UK yet all we get is parochial whingers.
I agree with Ken - London should secede and become an independent city state like Singapore. Then those who don't like its multiculturalism can leave and fold back on their narrow ethnic certainties and revel in their almost certain economic stagnation."
"Mark Greeno - you ask ""Why is it that when I tune into the business news channels city people are often boasting to each other about how the high levels of immigration into the UK is keeping wage inflation down, ""
The answer is that defenders of mass immigration wriggle like snakes and use the figures in any way that seems right to make their case. And Legrain is no exception. To give a few examples ""to the Scottish Highlands, where Poles are reviving communities that young Scots have fled"" - yet elsewhere he tells us not to worry because ""Headlines about 600,000 eastern Europeans arriving since 2004 are misleading: most of them have already left again and many are, in effect, international commuters who spend only part of the year here"" So they revive your community while not actually staying in it. Ideal really - but hard to do.
""asylum applications were a mere 25,710 in 2005, while 15,685 failed asylum seekers were deported"" - other Grauniad columnists tell us to give up on deportation, take forever, cost the earth. This guy, to make his case, says only about 70 come in a day and we deport over 40 - in which case it would seem perfectly possible to clear up the backlog of the problem. (Actually I'd guess he's wrong - we issue deportation orders on 40, but deport 5 probably.)
""the net inflow in 2005 was still only 185,000 - 0.3% of the UK population"" - fine, it only increases the population by A a very large town, B EVERY YEAR C and these are only the ones that are known about.
Also using ""net"" hides the fact that quite a lot of UK people are leaving, never to return. I know a lot and they are by no means the worst of the UK's citizenry.
""migrants have helped sustain Britain's longest-ever economic boom without sparking inflation"" - But the inflation rate in the UK is the most selective use of statistics of all! No house prices in there! But of course the low price of imports from China (or of course nearly all imports due to the crazed strength of sterling) are in there.
""Just as EU trade barriers that prevent African farmers selling the fruits of their labour in Britain are unfair, so are immigration controls that stop Africans selling their labour here."" - if 50 million Africans took him at his word, and turned up this year, what would Mr. Legrain do? A Welcome them and allow several to live with him until they found more suitable accomodation? B Build a wall round his house and employ 20 ex-BOSS South African security guards to police it(no blacks need apply)? C Leave the country, vigourously penning another pro-immigration article as he boards the plane?"
In my home town , Southampton, wages for building workers have halved , hardly "energising".
"Hi City Type here, looking askance
I think Mr Ibicenco and Mr Stujam (gender neutral) have said what needs to be said.
To underline
A recent survey from the Sydney Morning Herald sought views on immigration by post code
most positive - the inner city left-wing intelligensia beneficiaries of Choice Deli's and deliciously exotic potential partners and the denizens of Palm Beach insulated by wealth and distance. Immigration, What's that then?
most negative - the people that have to put up with it
Nothing better than getting others to pay for life's little luxuries"
The misunderstanding that many of the above arguments rely on is that there is some fixed quantity of jobs out there that we all have to compete for. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of immigrants come here to work and therefore produce goods and services - and therefore add to the overall amount of wealth. That's why immigration tends to create new jobs and, as many studies indicate, any effect of lowering wages is usually temporary. A Bank of England survey last year which questioned 200 companies employing over 300,000 workers revealed that 60% employed immigrants because of a 'scarcity' pf labour. Added to this the fact that the State does not bear the cost of training and education with these workers and the benefit to the 'economy' becomes even clearer. Having said that, of course if employers can get away with lowering wages then they usually will. But that just means that working people have to come together to make sure that doesn't happen, which is why its very encouraging to see British trade unions making efforts to recruit jobseekers from Poland and elsewhere. When Irish imigrants came to Britain in relatively larger numbers in the 19th century many accused them of lowering the wages of British workers and, in some sectors of industry, there was competition. But the Irish labourers played such a leading role in the early trade union movement that in the longer term they helped to improve the conditions of everyone who worked for a living. I don't think evryone who is concerned about the effects of immigration is an out and out racist. But lets be clear. When 'Brimstone' writes that the 'native' Dutch will soon account for less than half the youth population, we know he means 'white.' And when he asks 'What's it like in the big city schools in Britain today? What proportion of those kids are native Brits?" we know he means 'white'. I don't know what proportion of kids are white and I don't care, and i live and work in an inner city, npt a middle class suburb. People like John Denham MP, whose government has encouraged an agenda of 'flexible' labour markets, virtually ended public investment in housing and mantained anti-union legislation, should think twice before encouraging such ugly sentiments.
From the comment posted, it seems that those who live with immigrants see only the downside and rather than taking up the challenge they represent, just want the immigrants gone so they can carry on their life in their own way. This is an entirely understandable position as the changes that are required of people when faced with new challenges are often not enjoyed, especially when forced upon them as is the case with immigrants. It is easier to resist change and tell yourself that you are protecting your way of life than changing or facing the unknown. Which is a shame as it is daring to face the unknown that lead to the development of this country from an isolated island to a world power. Personally, if someone is willing to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to work in this country, then they have the drive and determination that this country does not see enough of. If we Brits do not rise to the challenge of being better workers that the immigrants provide, we will continue the decline in world and economic power that we have experienced since the end of World War 1. Immigrants not only bring a NET benefit to this country of some �2 billion a year but their distribute more money back to their home countries than the British Government gives in international aid and it doesn't get caught by the sticky fingers. They are good for this country, good for their home countries and we should be welcoming them not trying to limit them. Without them this country would fall flat on its face.
"penfold37: ""Without them this country would fall flat on its face."" -------------------------------
Just like the Japanese have fallen on their face huh?
Britain would manage just fine without large scale immigration.
Which immigrants are the 'NET benefit to this country' anyway? Looking at economic activity numbers it sure as heck doesn't seem like Somalis, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are beneficial.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/economics/html/overview.stm
That's why people keep holding up the Polish as an example of how immigration is beneficial but they only account for a small number of the immigrants in Britain."
"Here in the north east we must be living in another country. We have few ""immigrants"" whatever that misused term may mean. Those we do have fill a gap in the labour market.
I think a far greater problem in this country is the concentration of wealth and power in the south-east. The rich from that area then buy second homes in rural areas of this country, thus sending prices rocketing. This prices local people out of the market. In a sense these ""in-comers"" are non-productive workers.
So what's the difference between these ""immigrants"" to another part of the United Kingdom, and those ""immigrants"" from another part of Europe or elsewhere? And what about all those Britons who go and live abroad?
If we want to batten down the hatches and stop the movement of people in to Britain, then foreigners will retaliate and do the same to us. We'll all be the poorer. Do we really want that to happen?"
"""Asylum applications were a mere 25,710 in 2005, ...""
Asylum applications include the person making the claim and all dependents. It is not an accurate reflection of the actual number of asylum seekers and the author knows this. This whole article is an exercise in obfuscation."
I can only speak about the construction industry and my wages have halved in the last 15 years due to 2 main causes-lack of union strength in negociating wage rates which allows 2 to happen- migrant labour to undercut existing working rates by being able to come straight in to work on non-union jobs. I loathe economists and their smug a*s*l*ck*ng, toading up to the capitalist bosses, collecting crumb-like perks in the form of articles in Management Tod*y extolling the virtues of a pliant workforce. So, for any of you who think that uncontrolled general immigration is good for us; go and get one of your tame pasty faced economists to answer this question- Were our large main industrial units driven to destruction by foreign competition-or allowed to be destroyed to get rid of the unions? Answers to be given using short words only.
"Good article, and one which lends some genuine-ness to the much-professed belief in an open society and inclusiveness.
That said, how much of the Guardian readership can claim to be ""fair"", ""anti-discriminatory"" and ""open-minded"" about social issues and still sound like they want to keep others out is beyond me. Many don't seem to have any principles beyond protecting their own inflated standards of living. There are millions suffering in poverty in other parts of this world who would be more than pleased to share in the UK's wealth. And in many cases they do better work for less!
Yet when the issue of immigration raises its head, the most bleeding-heart, friend-of-the-workingman, ""progressive"" and politically-correct commentators here on CiF suddenly turn into protectionist, flag-waving BNPers.
This tendency has always seemed to be proof to me why Nu-Labour authoritarianism and economic envy/revenge can both exist within the same working and middle classes, which otherwise claim to be so progressive and which sneer at anyone disagreeing on economic, religious or other grounds. The same people who get worked up about ostentatious displays of wealth by the super-rich in fact long for it and seek to artificially protect their own jobs and wealth by keeping out foreign competition. Similarly, within the UK, they are more than happy to give away their own and our civil liberties, raise taxes for their own benefit and otherwise use the threat of government violence to impede wealth accumulation.
So it is refreshing to see an open-minded and inclusive article like this one, trying to encapsulate a larger view of world problems. Every Guardian reader ought to concur fully with it!"
Good article- nice to see some economic logic in the guardian for once- there is nothing to fear economically from immigration- even if it depresses wages in some sectors- that actually means it depresses prices for those goods for us all and consequently makes us all wealthier- its a good thing. The real worries people have though I suspect aren't at source economic they are about issues like whehter the welfare state can survive immigration- the most recent study I think found that people are willing to pay high taxes even for people they don't consider similar to themselves. http://gracchii.blogspot.com
"'Migrants are no threat to us'
Who are 'us', M. Legrain? The French?"
�As for shared values, society is broad enough to accommodate nuns and transsexuals, Marxists and libertarians, eco-warriors and city slickers.� But not right-wing ballerinas.
"London is booming primarily due to the booming financial services sector, not because of immigration.
And this argument that British people will not do certain jobs is totally unfair. The reason many people remain on benefits is due to means-testing, which means going to work makes you no better off than staying at home. We have an employee who says he is 20 pounds a week better off than he would be on benefits despite working 40 hours a week, which is a rate of pay of 50 pence an hour. End this nonsense and British workers will be more than willing to do the jobs that we supposedly ""need"" immigrants for. A country with millions on the dole that has job vacancies for unskilled work is clearly doing something very wrong. No one has bothered to find out why which is utterly shameful. Well, I've just told you: the idiot-brained benefits system."
"According to the National Statistics Office http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=950 , the net immigration rate is 248,000 a year not 185,000 claimed by Mr Legrain. I find his smug ""I'm all right, Jack"" attitude to working people, who are having their wages slashed by this tide of even poorer people who are willing to work for peanuts, quite sickening, and reminiscent of the worst excesses of Toryism, where workers were considered expendable.
In the long term, Britain's environment just cannot accommodate the current level of population increase of 375,000 a year."
"""Those parts of the country that are seeing job losses are not those where migrant workers are most prevalent,"" notes Brendan Barber, the TUC general secretary.
So why is it that London has the highest unemployment in the UK at 7.6% (the national average is 5.5%) ???"
"Firstly, no-one has the faintest idea how many immigrants have come to or left the UK. The 600,000 figure is based on how many arrived through 3 or 4 airports and bothered to register themselves. The number who arrived at every other port or airport in the country and didn't bother to register are unknown.
Secondly, of course wages are being driven down by immigrant labour. Anyone working in trades such as lorry-driving, building, plumbing will be aware of the catastrophic drop in salary when a Pole arrives who will do your job for half your salary because he is living 18 to one room and all his family are back in Poland. Workers in the UK simply cannot compete unless they move their families to Poland, sell their houses and live 18 to one room like the immigrants."
"1. Less than 10% of people in Britain may have been born abroad, but even so in numerical terms that's an awful lot of people. Moreover the most terrifying ones are Muslims who were born here to immigrant parents; yet Legrain wants more of them. 2. Legrain ignores the failed asylum seekers not deported, as well as the thousands of illegals who don't appear in the figures. 3. The net inflow of migrants may well have been ""only"" 185,000 in 2005 (sounds a lot to me), but that ignores the fact that most of those leaving will have been Brits, so the extent to which immigration is changing Britain culturally is distorted by Legrain. 4. Legrain cannot really have any idea of how many of the 600,000 eastern Europeans arriving since 2004 have already left: the government doesn't know, so how can he? 5. Legrain repeats the old lie that ""Were it not for foreign doctors and nurses, the NHS would collapse"". No. The NHS would have had to pay nursing staff a decent wage and train more doctors. Years ago. 6. Legrain says, ""The employment rate is virtually unchanged on a year ago, while average wages are up 3.8%."" But maybe there'd have been even lower unemployment and higher wages without migrants.
And so tendentiously on. The truly depressing thing about this article is that the Graun is apparently happy to print something so intellectually shabby. If you're going to make the case for immigration, at least do so honestly instead of leaving out the inconvenient bits that don't support your case.
The reality is that immigration keeps wages down for people at the bottom end of society (the CBI is in favour of it - funny that). This keeps inflation and therefore interest rates low, but racks up demand for housing, which goes some way to explain the current house price madness. Immigrants do create some jobs, but not as many as they take up. To say they don't put any strain on public services is frankly a lie. Immigration might help to plug gaps in our NHS provision thanks to decades-worth of our pitifully poor forward planning, but at the additional expense of robbing poorer countries permanently of their best educated people.
Where are these issues addressed frankly in Legrain's article? They aren't. Usual Guardian crap, in fact."
"""penfold37: ""Without them this country would fall flat on its face."" -------------------------------
Just like the Japanese have fallen on their face huh?""
Well, perhaps if Britain actually had anything remotely APPROACHING the Japanese work ethic, perhaps there wouldn't be a need for immigration in this country. Unfortunately a sizeable amount of British people are lazy disorganised bums whose inability to do the most basic menial tasks, such as repairing a boiler or driving a train so it arrives on-time, can only be amended by getting a hard-working foreigner in to do the job instead."
Philippe - it's not your country which is being overwhelmed; France has 3.5 times more space than UK and immigrants don't flock there because you have to have these tiresome things called identity cards and you can't get things like medical care and social security benefits without them. I hope you are enjoying your new bathroom so deftly installed by those Polish plumbers, Philippe, but please realise that in the more 'gritty' world where most of us live, we don't like having the schools we send our children to being filled with kids who speak no English. We don't like the NHS being flooded with new people just loving our free medical care offered no questions asked either. One thing which also galls is when former 'asylum seekers' exercuse their right to buy on the few council houses which are left - especially after they jumped the queue to get them! I could go on, but I know that this country is being flooded with people from all over the world who don't share our values and are reducing the quality of life of British born people who are leaving in droves due to lack of space.
"I'd like to know where exactly this 'shared increased wealth as a result of immigration' is exactly.
My point is, if you want to be defined solely as an economic unit, and work yourself into the ground (or an NHS ward) just so Broon (for 20 months, max) followed by Cameron can feel great about themselves standing next to the future US president - fine, you do it. But ask yourself, what do we, the electorate, get out of desperately trying to stand alongside the superpowers?
Oh yeah, we're helping to fund the Iraq war.
Does anybody really believe that Blair has made any difference to Dubbya's oil grabbing idiocies? No, me neither. We have the same landspace as New Zealand. We are no longer a superpower.
I've no problem with Europeans coming here, nor with us going there. There has to be limits with the rest of the world, though. This country is full up."
"Mr Legrain, Open World was a masterpiece and I'm looking forward to getting a lot of heavy artillery from this new book to take to the battle with the xenophobes.
Despite arguments about statistics the stark reality of our country's prosperity, and the reasons for it are starring us all in the face. Do people think that the sustained growth of the last 10 years has been down to some unexpected rediscovery of a British work ethic? None of it, the answer as Legrain rightly points out, is free movement of labour. For years the unemployed from all over the UK refused to move to find work and jobs went begging. Now those jobs are filled by more adventurous, ambitious (and ironically apitalist) workers from Europe, and beyond. When those workers exhibit a determination and appetite for work that Britain was so lackiing 20 years ago it should be no surprise that the economy gets a jump start.
We should push for less controls on movement of labour, not more. Blue-collar or white, we will all benefit from supply and demand in the workplace being left up to the natural forces of the market. And if at the same time the bright light of multiculturalism is shined into some of the darker corners of middle England then so much the better, particularly for our children and their children."
"Britain = low-wage, low-skills, fat-cat, high-price economy, powered by inflated real-estate prices.
While Eastern European migrants sell their cheap labour to the UK thereby driving down wages, British buy-to-rent profiteers invest massively in property in Eastern Europe, pricing locals out and f*cking up their property market now that they�ve comprehensively f*cked up the UK property market.
In a globalized capitalist world, the only winners are those with capital, regardless of nationality. End of story (but certainly not of history).
Check this out: http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2129965.ece"
"MichaelZ wrote Well, perhaps if Britain actually had anything remotely APPROACHING the Japanese work ethic, perhaps there wouldn't be a need for immigration in this country. Unfortunately a sizeable amount of British people are lazy disorganised bums
Are you talking about your self or just the lazy shiftless working class I notice the jobs you mentioned are blue collar jobs.
The Middle Class right want immigrants to drive down costs the middle class left want immigrants because they just don�t like the white working class we are just a bunch of nasty racist boozed up thugs whose children prey on there children"
"I would love to agree wholeheartedly with the author on this but here on the South Coast (and no doubt elsewhere) wages in the construction industry have definitely been driven down. This is great news for the middle class who employ painters, decorators, builders, plumbers and pavers etc but bad news for the indigenous working class population. I wonder if the figures quoted take account of the many self-employed construction craftsmen who are undercut and unable to find work? Those who can still find work find themselves less and less able to meet pre-existing financial commitments.
As for care of the elderly, it makes me very angry that the author thinks it is a good thing that low wages for carers can be maintained. Caring for the elderly is difficult and exhausting work and wages are scandalously low. Perhaps if this work were adequately rewarded, more British people would be prepared to do these jobs.
I cannot see how it is a good thing that there will be even more downward pressure on these already inadequate wages. It is also deeply unsatisfactory that our elderly and vulnerable people are cared for by people who cannot even speak their language.
However, very soon the middle class will start feeling the effects of this immigration. They may currently enjoy the fact that their drive can be block-paved on the cheap, but already the sheer number of enthusiastically Catholic Poles are blocking middle class access to the ""best"" schools in many areas. Other schools are having to commit already stretched resources to teaching English to the children of these immigrant workers.
My area does not have a large immigrant population but there are now a dozen Kurdish and Polish children at her infant school, all of whom need extra help with English, necessitating the employment of a specialist language teacher. The parents of these children are of course too busy working to send money ""home"" to volunteer any help - not that any of them speak English anyway.
So Phillipe, your book will no doubt go down very well with the middle class ""elite"" right now, while they are enjoying their cheap labour. Give it a year or two though, and I think you'll be writing a different story altogether."
"Qwertyuiop: the 185,000 figure is correct:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=260&Pos=&ColRank=1&Rank=374
The 248,000 figure you quote is for the year to mid-2005, whereas the 185,000 is for the calendar year 2005."
"What a breath of fresh air, Mr Legrain! It is depressing if not surprising to see all the frothy-mouthed responses to it. This doesn't show that the article is inaccurate � in fact it highlights the complete opposite. The depressing thing is how so many posters just blindly reiterate the lies they read in the Mail / Express / Sun. None of these papers take into account outflows of polish immigrants since 2004. They just bang on about the 600k figure because to the hardened xenophobe it sounds scarier.
All those claiming that wages have been depressed are equally wide of the mark. Like the myth of immigrants taking all the jobs, all being terrorists, or all being disease-ridden, it's one of those libels so tediously dragged out by the Right simply to agitate the hard-of-thinking. National Statistics show that mean salaries and wages have increased year-on-year over the past 10 years. Moreover there are no stories relating mass employment tribunals where native-born staff have been ditched simply so employers can undercut their salaries by employing migrants (funny how the pro-business Right turns into phlegm-flecked, anti corporatists when immigration rears its ugly head).
So it appears that bearsall, brimstone, redifaya et al are barking up the wrong tree. Time for them to check out the real world where fellow working class people in my community carry on with their daily lives despite the hate-mongering these posters have rather stupidly bought into. Perhaps that is what upsets them most? The lack of popular civil unrest?
And it is sheer desperation to harp on about the emigration of native Britons. Fancy backing up an anti-immigration rant with stats about, er, British immigrants to other countries!"
"Well Mr Legrain - you've got your answer. Most of us in this country can see through the 'Bilderberger/Fabian/Common Purpose' plans to resucitate the rest of the Europe and Africa by more or less destroying the UK and handing our money over to immigrants so they can send it home. This is much easier to accomplish than simply ""stealing"" the money off the population via the treasury and giving it away to countries like Rumania, Bulgaria, Poland etc etc in foreign aid and raising their standard of living accordingly on the backs of British workers But we've had enough Mr Legrain. Why else do you think the BNP membership is going up by thousands each month. Because they're happy with your's and the Governments's smugness about ""immigration is good for us""? Disgruntled voters have simply had enough of being third class ciizens in their own country. Every time they say anything about immigration they are insulted by the media as ""racists"" (whatever that means). It may come as a surprise Mr Legraijn, but my grandfather and hundreds of thousands of others didn't die in war in WW1 and WW2 so this country could be handed over to foreigners. Why is it so wrong for us to feel a nationalistic pride? The Scandinavians don't have this multi-culterism shoved down their throats and millions of immigrast. Nor Japan. Nor Australia. Nor many, many other countries. Nor do they have to suffer the cancer of political correctness. This country is over full and we need to get a grip on our own sovereignty again.
Nick Chance Worcester"
"""MichaelZ wrote Well, perhaps if Britain actually had anything remotely APPROACHING the Japanese work ethic, perhaps there wouldn't be a need for immigration in this country. Unfortunately a sizeable amount of British people are lazy disorganised bums""
Are you talking about your self or just the lazy shiftless working class I notice the jobs you mentioned are blue collar jobs.
The Middle Class right want immigrants to drive down costs the middle class left want immigrants because they just don�t like the white working class we are just a bunch of nasty racist boozed up thugs whose children prey on there children.""
Well let's get something straight right now, I have had Japanese people in Japan working for me and they don't have a better work ethic than UK workers, at least in the professional classes. What they do have is (a) a culture which sees the bosses as bosses and not to be argued with and (sae as Germany and the USA), (b) a welfare system that means that you are in real trouble if you don't work.
The second issue is the appalling hatred of the middle classes in these columns and now in the Labour party and the government. Most of this group of people work hard and get by on what they earn, they sacrifice the good things in life to educate their children and in general are model citizens. We should all be aspiring to be like them, not abusing and persecuting them.
Finally the article is of course complete bollocks, and takes an extremely tunnel visioned view of immigration. Immigration as has been said by many people on this thread doesn't affect anyone except those at the low end scale of the job market, who it hits heavily, and while I personally think that it is required to give the country energy I am not surprised that there are people who are vehemently against it because it affect them not me. In short, like most Guardianistas he M. Legrain is a one dimensional selfish so and so. Must go my Albanian chauffeur has just arrived to take me to my club."
WE Brits by n large tolerate other cultures and races with gritted teeth. We haven't quite got over our colonial superiority complex.This is both true of the right and left. Anyone in this paper commenting who diagrees with this view is essentially in a state of self delusion and denial. It could be argued that today we are trying to relive/revive our empire days on the tail coats of US.
"I'd like to ask - how did nobody see the problems coming? We've been slowly getting into Europe for 30+ years, and any problems should have been forseen. Or do our elected repesentatives and their advisers just ""sign on the dotted line""?
I'm in favour of immigration as it gives people a chance to work in the UK whilst contributing here and in their original country. I sympathise with those communities who feel the shock of the new, but I have to say that because the road where I live has some of the cheapest housing in town it is having increasing numbers of brown faces. And you know what, it makes no difference! I still hardly know my neighbours! The notion that the ""problem"" is about cultural changes (Bearsall, 10:11) is a myth, as far more significant changes have happened in the last century, not all of them have been beneficial, but but we accept the whole package. I'd like my children to learn different languages and be able to engage contructively with other Europeans. I think as well as the patchily rising standards in schools, that would be a great leap forward.
I know from my work that the UK has a benefits system which is both difficult to negotiate and holds people who on the borderline back. We ought to make better efforts to change this, and in some small positve ways (such as Condition Management Programmes) there is some progress. Changing society to make the currently unemployable (as distinct from the workshy) is more complex - I'm loathe to see people destitute. Polly Toynbee recently wrote that the real losers in this country are single people of working age at the bottom of the pile. Consider that Jobseekers Allowance hasn't really risen for years.
I certainly don't think that this country is full up. We just need to organise it better (or just organise it). I see some progress is being made on a local level in tackling the number of empty homes. If there is one good thing about the silly house prices, it is that should stimulate demand for houses in previously no-go areas. That has an undeniabel knock on effect, and it's partly to do with immigration. But this is s separate issue. Cameron (10.29) speculates that M Legraine has a new bathroom installed by Polish plumbers, a reference to those in the UK not earning a ""living wage"". The question is, how far do we prop up professions such as builders when it's not clear how much value they are worth. There is after all a minimum wage so that undercutting can't be too sharp at the bottom. And that applies to all levels - look at Wembley Stadium (or what there is of it). Sounds a lot like the argument for the miners in 1984. Let's see effective retraining for those that want to leave building trades, and skills equivalent to the prices for those that don't. That way we could go some way to filling up the job vacancies, and be a bit more self-sustaining. But immigration is here to stay!"
"smurfs75 writes -
""National Statistics show that mean salaries and wages have increased year-on-year over the past 10 years.""
Well yes, but the argument is not that immigrants depress wages, as you imply, but that they depress wage growth, which is not the same thing.
""Moreover there are no stories relating mass employment tribunals where native-born staff have been ditched simply so employers can undercut their salaries by employing migrants"".
But again, the suggestion is not that employers have sacked the British, but that when looking for new staff they have been able to pay less than they would otherwise have had to if only British workers had been available.
""funny how the pro-business Right turns into phlegm-flecked, anti corporatists when immigration rears its ugly head ...""
Don't you read the papers? The CBI loves immigration precisely because they know that their members' businesses don't have to compete so hard for workers.
""So it appears that bearsall, brimstone, redifaya et al are barking up the wrong tree.""
Not as demonstrated by you, I think.
"".... people in my community carry on with their daily lives despite the hate-mongering these posters have rather stupidly bought into ...""
So anyone against immigration is hate-mongering? How simple. Actually, the people who are playing into the hands of the BNP are those that conflate being anti-immigration with racism. As long as no mainstream political party makes the case against immigration, voters will look for a party that does.
Offensive? Unsuitable? Email us"
"Whether or not mass immigration is of overall benefit to the UK economy is largely irrelevant. The real scandal of this issue is that the British people have never been given a say as to whether or not they wish to live in a multicultural society.
There seems to have been a consensus among the three main political parties as to immigration policy. The only alternative (or non-alternative for most Brits) is to vote for whatever motley, right-wing organisation is pursuing a ""send 'em back"" manifesto at any given time. Therefore, there has been no real choice.
It represents such a fundamental change to a society like Britain, that a vote on the level and make-up of our inward immigration should be a democratic necessity.
But I'm afraid that the middle-class patricians who regularly contribute to The Guardian are not interested in democratic rights when they clash with their own points of view."
"Well Mr. Legrain,
They were certainly a threat to the workers of Gate Gourmet who were replaced wholesale by contract labour from Warsaw. The irony of course being that these were largely the children and grandchildren of Asian migrants living in West London. Brought over ""to do the jobs the British wouldn't do"". Now many aren't doing a job at all while being supported by the British tax payer.
They are certainly a threat to about 400 people in my hometown who work/worked for a large distribution centre in the West of England. They are no longer directly employed but are on contract. They now receive near minimum wage with no holiday or pension entitlement and the number of shifts available has on average decreased by one third. Could it be coincidence that the number of Polish workers increased from zero to 134 as this happened?
Why not admit it Mr. Legrain, the title of your article should be ""Don't believe this claptrap. Migrants are no threat to anyone who actually matters""."
"[medzie: Do people think that the sustained growth of the last 10 years has been down to some unexpected rediscovery of a British work ethic? None of it, the answer as Legrain rightly points out, is free movement of labour.]
What has ""free movement of labour"" got to do with the price of cheese?
It certainly has nothing much to do with immigration.
The desire to have free movement of labour would imply a guest-worker programme, and temporary work permits.
The immigration debate (for ex-EU immigration) is about the free granting of citizenship, with the social security benefits that entails, and the virtual requirement for workers to change their nationality in order to gain access to the labour market.
Show me the economic theory that calls for ""free exchange of nationality"".
If anything, policy on ex-EU immigration works against free market principles. Migrants who simply wish to work and earn money for the families at home often find the only route is to enter illegally, attempt to gain full citizenship, and leave their home country behind, forgotten and irrelevant.
Then they find themselves chided for failing the ""cricket test""!"
"Mass immigration into an already natively overpopulated western Europe and the ""economic forces"" that are driving it, although not such an obvious or deliberate evil as Nazism, are no less an INSANITY, which, if allowed to continue, will lead to even greater devastation and loss of life.
Philippe Legrain, like most people, bases his ideas (in good faith, I'm sure) on a model of socio-economic reality which is fundamentally flawed, self-deluding and self-serving (in the short-term interests of our dumb-animal, rather than human, nature).
The problem is that social scientists, especially economists, do not go back to basics and take an evolutionary, anthropological view of human society. They are totally preoccupied with (because completely immersed in and dependent on - as we all are) the artificial ""socio-economic environment"", which for Homo sapiens has effectively replaced the natural environment for his continuing, Darwinian, blind, dumb-animal struggle for survival and advantage, which free-market capitalism has developed and, more recently, been honed to facilitate (naturally enough, by those who short-sightedly and materially profit from it most).
More in this vein at http://www.spaceship-earth.org"
"I think I would be more supportive of the government's broadly pro-immigration line if at the same time it made strenuous efforts to prevent the emigration of the young and talented and tried to tempt back those British who had already emigrated.
I don't thing I will see though."
Good article. A rare excursion to the economic truth (which is the only truth that matters btw all you crypto-racists). Had my usual attempt to read some of the feedback before giving up in disgust, as usual... worse than trying to read a julie burchill article. Why are some of you people incapable of arguing on subject without resorting to personal insults? How many times was class mentioned? "ewww you're middle class... you don't understand... ewww!" what are you on about? this is immigration and econonomics... it's not like the class moaners are unreconstructed marxists, even... more of the working class 'intellectual' garry bushell (spit) types... one step from the BNP on a desperate search to find somewhere to displace their own little fears and inadequacies... Why else would you be so scared of "foreigners"? I say again.. this is economics.. if there's a market for immigrant labour that's economics.. if it means wages get depressed.. that's economics.. if there's job shortages or local population fluctuation,,, guess what? Re-train, get another job, move, take advantage of not starting off in a shitkicking country like your bogeymen have... welcome to the 21st century.. time to wake up to the world economy bozos
When are people in responsible positions going to understand that the majority of white indigenous people DO NOT want immigrants, regardless of colour race or creed, in Britain. It wouldn't matter if the net contribution was in billions of pounds, we just do not want them. It is bad enough that such a high proportion of males in this country permanently live under a baseball cap, and our youths think they are afro American, with their unintelligible talk and attitude to life. Our culture has already been eroded by the media so we do not want to make it any worse, with foreigners demanding that we have to adopt and adapt to their way of life. I want to be BRITISH, just like my forbears. That is what I have strived all my life for, so that my grandchildren can grow up with the knowledge that they are unique in this world. It's time to put the GREAT back into GREAT BRITAIN by making it BRITISH, not BRITISLAM. It's time to say NO to what is being forced upon us. It is time once more, and possibly for the last time, to make good use of the ballot box. The people of Britain have got to get off their backsides and DO SOMETHING about the problems we are faced with. I am thankful that we still have a little freedom left to allow political Parties like the BNP to point out to us the problems that we are faced with. Is it any wonder that the Government is doing all in it's power to gag them when we see the truth in what the BNP is saying.
"There are still a lot of real `UK` people - however you want to define that, Anglo-Saxons, Jamaicans who`ve been here since the 50s, people of Irish descent, whoever - who have shit lives and could do with having real money and effort spent on them to get up the social/educational/financial ladder a bit.
It seems pretty unquestionable that large-scale immigration harms these people, if no-one else in the UK. Resources are diverted, low skill jobs are not available, low pay becomes lower.
The big question really is `does that bother you?` If the answer is `no`, then Votez Legrain, Votez Front International! They`re certainly not his people."
"The UK currently has mass unemployment (more than 1 million unemployed Britons) and further hidden unemployment due to people being shunted into incapacity benefit.
It appears this is no longer an issue for Labour or the Conservatives.
Re economic benefits from migration, studies in Canada, the US and the Netherlands found economic benefits were only very slight, and mostly accrued to the immigrants. In the Netherlands, where the immigration profile is closer to that of the UK, the range of impact was from slightly positive to negative.
Legrain is either ignorant of or chooses to ignore the impact of illegal immigration, estimated at between 310,000 and 570,000 by the Home Office (based largely on those illegal immigrants who bothered to fill in their Census forms). As an illegal immigrant won't have a NI number or pay tax, they won't be contributing to public income, but they will be taking money out in the form of health, transport, justice system etc. (and undermining employment protections).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4637273.stm
When this half a million or more come to retire - do you think they'll go back to their home countries? Or will the law-abiding taxpayers have to pay for their pensions, healthcare and sheltered housing?
Finally, Legrain completely ignores the social and environmental impact of mass immigration. England is already more three times more crowded than the the rest of the EU, and on a par with the Netherlands. If it is the ambition of our Tuscan-villa owning governing classes to complete our transformation into Macau or Hong Kong, I'd like to be told.
Medzie, multi-culturalism is a myth - there is only ever one dominant culture in a country, although there may be large amounts of civil strife as communities fight for dominance.
The UK has pockets of foreign cultures (both virtual and actual) but they don't actually mix.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2252571,00.html"
"""The misunderstanding that many of the above arguments rely on is that there is some fixed quantity of jobs out there that we all have to compete for."" (dennisthemenace 03:57 AM)
Yes, the `lump of labour' fallacy, but go talk to the wall.
""The reality is that immigration keeps wages down for people at the bottom end of society (the CBI is in favour of it - funny that). This keeps inflation and therefore interest rates low, but racks up demand for housing, which goes some way to explain the current house price madness."" (bearsall 10:11 AM)
So immigrants are simultaneously working for next to nothing, yet buying up all the houses. Does not compute."
Looking from the top downwards in our society 'everything in the garden looks rosey'. The people looking up things are getting worse and for the future when the immigrants get fed up of the low wages things will change. People leaving to go abroad are not the poor and now it is confirmed it is 10% inflation for the hard working low/middle income families buying their homes. Clearly we are now looking at the rise of confrontation and restoration of the unions as people seek justice and a decent wage, therefore inflation and instability for financial matters, the cycle continues.
"Immigration is good is such a simplistic argument, typoical neoliberal bullshit out of which Legrain has made a career.
1) Other countries lose their talent. Africa trains up nurses expensievly and they come to ENgland straight away 2) The useless England cricket team argument. Homogenous societies function better because they have higher social capital, higher solidarity, shared values, goals, and esprit de corps.
Legrain maybe half Estonian, half French but his father is a billionaire. He attended Westminster, shortly after me. I don't know what qualifies him to say anything about anything,"
"_AT_ GerryM - ""Well let's get something straight right now, I have had Japanese people in Japan working for me and they don't have a better work ethic than UK workers, at least in the professional classes. What they do have is (a) a culture which sees the bosses as bosses and not to be argued with and (sae as Germany and the USA), (b) a welfare system that means that you are in real trouble if you don't work.""
Damn. You beat me to it.
The whole ""Japanese work ethic"" myth is just a convenient and lazy stereotype by people who've seen Rising Sun and think all those industrious Japanese workers wander round the office all day saying ""Ah-so - honorable salaryman"".
I've spent the last 15+ years working with the Japanese, both here and in Japan, and your comments on the reasons for their economic success are pretty accurate. Work-shy isn't an option when the state provides no real safety net. Amazing how quickly people will knuckle down to a life in construction when the alternative is sleeping rough under Yodoyobashi bridge.
And as for social housing, it's really opnly relevant if you're part of the underclass of ""untouchables"" - the burakumin.
It may sound socially Darwinian, but that's the way it works - not some superior mythological salarayman ethic of dedicating sweat, blood and soul to ""the job""
But there's another reason that contributes in their case - a form of patriotism (unfashionable as it may be to mention). The Japanese still take pride in the fact of their nationality and aren't repeatedly undermined by an intellectual element that seeks to belittle their efforts."
"Very good article.
Shame however to see that so many even on an 'intelligent' site such as this, can be such so stupid and bigoted.
To Muktananda:
Immigration (to the north) has been shown to be poverty reducing in the developing world due to remittances and the fact pointed out in the article, that many immigrants return, often with more wealth and new skills to benefit the home economy.
Anyone who opposes immigration to the north and claims to care about poor people in the developing world is talking bollocks.
The second argument is also ridiculous, the US is the most successful economy the world has ever seen and is also the most duiverse nation ever seen.
People keep banging on about immigration being bad for the working classes, but in what way? if you are talking about taking up low skilled jobs then you are wrong. Unemployment under New Labour has been low during what we are constantly being told by (not so) closet racist right-wing press has been a 'flood' of immiogration.
So what exactly is that the immigrants have done to you?"
"With regard to salvation_AT_11:44: ""the majority of white indigenous people DO NOT want immigrants"". Except, it seems that ""white indigenous people"" appreciate the cheap labour and increased range of servoces this implies. I don't see people queuing up to do the crappier end of social care, but I do see people enjoying varieties of food being dug out of the ground.
""It wouldn't matter if the net contribution was in billions of pounds"". Actually, it probably is already. I believe getting rid of all immigrants would cost the UK the equivalent of 1p in income tax?
""[A] high proportion of males in this country permanently live under a baseball cap, think they are afro American, with their unintelligible talk and attitude to life."" Not sure what bothers you here- is it particularly the afro-american, or the poor attitude? If it's the second, I can tell you that the attitude is one of the things that takes the Great out of Britain. Along with the weather...
I'm sure I'm not the first to point out that Britain is a nation of immigrants etc...
And yes, if you want Britain to improve itself, we could do worse than literally get off our steadily growing backsides, and get skills and job!"
"smurfs75, MrFusticle etc...
Can I just point out that within the indigenous working class population we are discussion includes a large ethnic minority population.
I and others are not necessarily bleating about the ""white"" working class, but the whole working class.
White, black, brown - if you are working class you are forced to suffer the negative effects of immigration, wherever it's from. If you are middle class, you will enjoy the positive effect of employing people to work for you for a lot less.
It's not racism to point this out."
"""So immigrants are simultaneously working for next to nothing, yet buying up all the houses. Does not compute.""
1. Immigrants rent flats. Demand for rentals increases. Rents go up. Being a landlord becomes more economically attractive. More people become landlords. Demand increases. Fewer properties are available for owner occupation. Prices go up.
2. Wage growth is suppressed. Inflation is suppressed. Interest rates are lower than they would otherwise have been. Borrowing is cheaper. More people borrow. Prices go up.
3. Because prices go up, property looks like a good investment. Demand goes up. More people invest in property. Prices go up even more.
Computes pretty well to me."
I agree with the idea that immigrants should be allowed to live and work here. But, as I have discovered from living in a 'multi-cultural' area, putting it into practice is a lot more difficult than it sounds on paper. It is true that the majority of immigrants flock to the city, and they all tend to gather into the same area of that city, I've found that this causes problems in having a 'multi-cultural' community, it is practically impossible to identify and communicate with them, as unlike other new neighbours, they already have all the friends, relatives and support systems that they need in place and therefore do need to form bonds with the rest of the community. In turn this can lead to a 'them and us' mentality which is clearly counterproductive. I'm not saying that it is anyone's fault, but that both sides could put in a little more effort to co-operate, as we are all living in the same 'community'.
"`I'm sure I'm not the first to point out that Britain is a nation of immigrants etc...`
AnObserver, I sincerely hope for your sake you are not the first to point that out. It`s a stupid, meaningless inanity."
"Good article which makes complete sense. I would point out that it's likely that immigration does have at least a short term impact on the sectors where immigrants compete directly with those in work, however the impact is only temporary because it gets lost in the natural ""churn"" of jobs in the economy already.
A massively more important factor than immigration on jobs is technology. Look at production lines now compared to those 30 years ago. They're basically unmanned today (other than by a small number of engineers) compared to yesteryear, and have a massive impact on the changing nature of the job market. For example we currently make more cars than at virtually any other time since the early 70s and yet the number employed in doing so is vastly lower than it was in the 80s when we made less.
Ending immigration is not going to bring back manual labouring jobs - ultimately manual labourers are competing against machines, who work for less than anyone!"
"I apologise for taking more space but MrFusticle's simplistic rant requires some balance. MrFusticle has a highly under-developed sense of perspective regarding the socio-economics of his own country. To him all that matters is ""economics"". No mention there of the blight to people's lives having worked through apprenticeships and then finding jobs within their chosen craft being done for peanuts by immigrant workers, while still trying to support a house, wife and children. Added to which, MrFusticle, his tax is then used to pay for even more immigrants to be trained in his own profession, adding insult to injury.
No mention by MrFusticle of the urban rat-like over-crowding reducing the quality of life to constant antagonistic forces resulting in various forms of daily psychological ""rages"".
No mention of the controls required and lacking within a greater plan of immigration control. Or is there no limit MrFusticle to the number of immigrants. If there is a limit what should it be? The whole of the Indian sub-Continent + the Balkans ? Where would you stop Mr Fusticle?
No mention of the blight to our Health System, and therefore the indigenous people, straining and groaning under the impossible task of providing healthcare to immigrant all comers for free.
Equally, Mr Fusticle where is your conscience when we are taking all of the immigrants from countries that can ill-afford to part with their work force. Where's the morality in bringing in third world nurses and doctors for instance? (Never mind having trained our own for them to be slung on the dole once qualified).
A short story MrFusticle. In the 1950's The Hudson Bay Company moved into an Indian reservation area where 150 villagers lived as hunter gatherers. This was undermined by HBC as they gave money to the Indians against next years fur trapping. Their children were forced to go to school, such that the children were then unable to help in the family economic unit. In the space of ten years the HBC reduced a viable and, in the main, content working village of 150 to a non-working community relying on charity of 850 villagers pretty well reduced to basket cases. All they'd needed was to be left to their own socio-economic paradigm which had served them well for hundreds of years. So much for economics with no conscience.
For all the idiotic epithets thrust at BNP (particularly by The Guardian and the BBC, MrFusticle, their economic policies are based upon fairness and a reliance upon the country's own resources. Think on MrFusticle.
NKC Worcester"
Phillipe Legrain obviously has no vested interest in immigration, has he? His name's as common in the UK as John Smith, Jock McTavish or Taff Davies.
"Toadborg
Trust is the reason why the USA works and Mexico doesn't.
Multicultural communities have lower trust levels than mono ethnic white ones for two reasons: they are populated by low trust communities such as Vietnamese, Mexicans and Ethiopians, and ethnic differences in itself (whatever the ethnic composition) lowers trust levels in a community. Read Robert Putnam, the top prize winning Harvard economist, who was so shocked by his findings he censored them.
USA is successful for many reasons, not least because the social capital among its white population is enormous. In a way, white Americans are collectivist. It's being chipped away though. Denmark, Sweden, Iceland and Norway and the Australian cricket team are successful. Why?"
An excellent article. It seems to be the easy way out to blame migrants for The Uks social ills. Most migrants i know are polite and hard working and will take the jobs that many of us deem menial. Its easy to play this card in order to paper over the fundamental cracks in the system. I for one can vouch that certain uk citizens who live in the same block of flats as me are willing to exploit the state benefit system to do nothing rather than go out to find work. What sticks in my craw is that many of these so called lonterm unemployed are the 1st to mock people like myself and others who are prepared to work hard . I FIRMLY think that the country must get out of this blame cycle and adress how migrants contribute to a multicultral Britain
I�m sick of reading about this ubiquitous Polish plumber. The thought of my wife being ravished by this randy Pole, with his slip-on shoes and bum fluff moustache, makes me want to retch. I don�t care how much he charges to service the ventilation units.
One can be in favour of immigration & not in favour of uncontrolled immigration at the same time. Do we know yet if The Home Office is fit for purpose?
"Gumbo, you've inadvertantly hit the nature of the problem on it's head. The impact of migration IS NOT short term because the nature of immigration currently has no historical parallel. In the past migration was short term, beit invasion or the result of the flight of peoples from elsewhere from the Hugenots and Jews to the Ugandan Asians.
Curent migration is open-ended and thus so are the problems generated by it.
We should also look at the short-sightedness of migration patterns in the past and LEARN from it. For example migration from Pakistan to the Lanacashire mill towns. The jobs went anyway in the 60s and 70s but the people stayed. A people with little in common with their white counterparts other than unemployment. Hence a casual walk through say Blackburn today will take you through streets completely seperated racially as sure as if the state were running an Apartheid regime.
The truth is if we are to permit immigration it must be through work permits and effective removal on termination of employment. Current migration results in waves of people employed, then unemployed. New jobs are eventually created but they aren't filled by the indiginous workers or previous migrants. They are tossed aside in favour of even cheaper newcomers leaving the state to support them."
"While migration is a 'good thing' from an economic point of view (lots of cheap labour), it's a disaster for the majority of the original population. It causes their wages to fall in real terms, and it cause house prices to rise far beyond their means.
Economists frequently ignore the human cost."
filmburner - why don't you check out my earlier post (9:04am) which explains why so many people do not work. It's simple really. I just which others would acknowledge the problem.
"""Phillipe Legrain obviously has no vested interest in immigration, has he? His name's as common in the UK as John Smith, Jock McTavish or Taff Davies.""
Does that preclude him from having an opinion? Xenophobe."
"So a 1% rise in population increases the size of the economy by, er 1%. Whoopee. Actually many people would argue that the growth would be less than 1%, but this is not that important, because of the following:
In the above article (and probably in his book) Philippe ignores the 3 main issues reagarding immigration:
1. Do we want to be a country of 70-80 million people? We have every right to be whatever size we want, and to use immigration to control the overall population. Personally I would argue for a slowly reducing population, which is perfectly manageable.
2. Social cohesion, and the effect of mass immigration (and other factors).
3. The economic damage caused by immigation's effect of entrenching the lack of economic activity of millions of Britons - we need serious policies to get more adult Britons into work, rather than relying on the cheap fix of immigration.
When are the PC lot going to address the real issues?"
"As an older generation Canuck the amount of racist hyperbole attacking Legrain is breathtaking, if not shocking.
Coming from a country of immigrants including vast numbers of Brits and French and where multi-culturalism is not only an act of faith but actually works well in practice, if the attitude I see here is typical of Brits you have a very sorry and inward looking country indeed.
I might point out that Canada and Australia, another immigrant country practicing multi-culturalism, have two of the most dynamic economies in the world...with new immigrants being a vital factor in this. Both coutries are still welcoming immigrant from all over the world and colours of skin - in Canada's case about 250,000 a year - our population is about 32 million.
Our immigrant population has added immeasurably to our very large country with the fascinating unique styles of living (including great cuisine - Brits please note) and strong work ethics.
Yes, nothing is perfect and never well be, since Canada and Australia have much to answer for in their treatment of our original native peoples...but slowly we are redressing this.
My advice to Brits is to take a couple of valiums and relax - your immigrant poplulation if given respect and opportunity will be a big plus for your rather tired, but pretty land. They will produce more job opportunities for you Brits not less in the long run.
Maybe Canada and Australia should send all its Brits and Frech back home, eh?"
"Speaking as someone who�s got absolutely nothing against immigrants but who�s not convinced by the economics behind immigration, I�d like to ask my fellow threaders this question: have you noticed any marked improvements in the way the UK works since 2004 when Eastern Europeans started coming to the UK in large numbers? Are you feeling more prosperous than pre-2004? Have you got the impression that your cost of living has decreased thanks to all that cheap labour? I know I don't. Where are the billions we�re told the new immigrants inject into the economy? I�m sure employers have noticed the difference in their wage bills (down), landlords in their banks accounts (up) and apparently construction workers have noticed it in their pay slips (down) but to many people the difference is minimal.
As far as I can tell rip-off Britain remains rip-off Britain, the cost of living keeps going up, public services remain sub-standard and government remains totally inept...
In my view the debate over whether immigration benefits the country as a whole is an absurd one. To paraphrase an erstwhile British Prime minister, there is no such thing as the country as a whole, there are people whose interests vary widely and are often diametrically opposed.
�The country as a whole� is a myth; ask all the people who keep their money in tax havens, they�ll tell you."
"People are very much focussing on the negative aspects of immigration as they see them. However without it prices for almost everything would be higher, and it's likely that many places where there aren't enough people around (ie the Highlands) would collapse.
What is more the pattern of immigration from Eastern Europe is that people often come over to work on a seasonal basis - going home over winter when agricultural work is less common. What is certainly true is that immigrants aren't the ones responsible for the changing work environment in the UK - that's far beyond their control. Therefore blaming immigration for the perceived woes of whoever is thoroughly bad thinking."
"There have always been shite jobs to do in a capitalist system paying poor wages for essential work. Yet, traditionally these jobs have been denigrated and the people doing them treated in a similar way. The wages you are paid is an indication of your value as a human being. The working class, both black and white, have always done these jobs and still do in the town that I live.
When I lived in London, the people sitting on the check-out in the supermarked were female, and (predominantly) black and asian or recent immigrants and working class. Now i am oop north (oop??) they are white but occupy much the same position in society as their counterparts in Landon. What a boon! Immigrants can come in and do the jobs at an even cheaper rate. No wonder big business has always been in favour of immigration. Pay them all decent wages!
Culturally immigrants can enrich some places especially in the north (although London seems to have plenty cultural diversity) and this I believe is good. The fact that they do it cheaply and at the expense of the poorer members of the indiginueous populatiion does not seem to bother metropolitan types. I just hope that there is never a recession. We could see fireworks then."
"Martin Wolf, the FT's chief political commentator. The FT, note, is the high temple of economic liberalism.
""The big beneficiaries of immigration are the immigrants themselves.""
Not society in other words, not other Britons.
Now, there is a moral case for letting in immigrants. No one can help being born in Senegal. But we have to be clear about this: we are doing them a favour.
To the guy who jokes about the Poles: my sister let in a Filipino to marry him. She paid for everything for two years til he got a job. He got her pregnant, got a well paid job. Then he ran off with a Polish girl. She is now a single mum with a six month old baby, alone.
Nice."
"Canoe,
Canada 9,984,670 km^2 UK 244,820 km^2
Canada = 41x as big as the UK with almost precisely half the population.
An applicable model? If you had the equivalent - 4.9billion people - or around half the global population, would you want more?
Secondly, please quote some ""racist hyperbole""."
"Did you know that most Ugandan Asians are planning to leave the country and are spending the next couple of years saving the money up. The reason they are going is because they are sick of the crime of the criminal gangs being formed among the new immigrants, the congestion of so many people living cheek by joul, the extornate housing and living costs, the corruption of government and big business. They are sick of the chaos and the hatred this Government displays to their own people, the disgraceful treatment and lack of respect for elderly people, the mess of the hospitals and schools.
They say 'why don't we stick up for ourselves like the French and the Germans do?'
When I asked where my Asian friends where they planned to go, they said Canada or New Zealand because it is the most 'English'. Unlike England which is being intentionally destroyed by malevent people such as the author of this article.
These evil people such as the author sneer down their noses at anyone who cares for this country, who respects their elders, who believes in truth and a civilised society. They look at them with evil eyes, and vicious sneer. It does not matter how successful they are, inside their feel little and so they have to sneer at others in order to feel powerful. I know about these people as I have an in law like this so I can watch it at close quarters.
They come from lower middle class backgrounds, they are the first of their family to go to university and they then think they know it all and are 'superior' to everyone else. Quite pathetic really. Why are we allowing the future of our country to be decided by such fools?"
"No question migrants are essential, given Europe's anemic fertility rates. The question is not whether or not, but WHO you let in. Immigrants from countries that share our cultural values should be emphasized.
(UNBIASED23, I responded to you on the Steve Poole thread)"
"_AT_Bearsall
""Well yes, but the argument is not that immigrants depress wages, as you imply, but that they depress wage growth, which is not the same thing.""
Go back and reread the thread. The stale old argument repeated ad-infinitum here is that wages have gone down because immigrants take jobs at lower rates. The statistics don't bear this out, so anti-immigration writers rely on hearsay and unsupported anecdote.
""But again, the suggestion is not that employers have sacked the British, but that when looking for new staff they have been able to pay less than they would otherwise have had to if only British workers had been available.""
The whole point is that the British wouldn't take the jobs on offer unless at inflated rates. You can argue that that is the market, but in real life people don't want to do menial jobs for any money. Motivation is more than the wage you get and such psychology bucks markets. Plus are you really prepared to put up with the economic damage runaway wage inflation would cause? You'd be the first on CIF whining about the risinig level of interest rates.
""Don't you read the papers? The CBI loves immigration precisely because they know that their members' businesses don't have to compete so hard for workers.""
Very nice, but that doesn't contradict the paradox I highlighted at all.
""So anyone against immigration is hate-mongering? How simple. Actually, the people who are playing into the hands of the BNP are those that conflate being anti-immigration with racism. As long as no mainstream political party makes the case against immigration, voters will look for a party that does.""
Yes, unfortunately the anti-immigration argument relies a lot on hate-mongering. Go read some tabloid newspapers. And it is the mendacious tactics of the Right which plays into the hands of the BNP. It is not the liberal press spreading malicious myths and rumours about immigrants around working class estates in Essex is it?
And as the last three General Elections show, voters are in fact turned off by Parties who can only scream xenophobic abuse at enterprising immigrants."
IvanIvanovIvanovich sats ## No question migrants are essential, given Europe's anemic fertility rates.## Utter rubbish. People and life in general always breads to fill the space available. If governments want more people build more houses,make them more affordable. But we are full up and over pressured. Importing more people only compounds this.
"""Xenophobe.""
tsavo, I am not a xenophobe. But in any discussion of immigration, people who are not native to these shores should say so, just as anyone discussing any other topic should disclose a vested interest. My mother came to the UK from the Irish Republic in 1944 to work as a nurse. (She's still here). There was then a genuine labour shortage for obvious reasons. My father was a native Englishman. So I can see two sides to this argument.
But the picture is nothing like as rosy as Legrain likes to make out. There are winners and losers, just like in everything else in life."
phew! that's a relief. No need for any further discussion here. it's simply not an issue. thank goodness for that.
"This all reminds me of a George Orwell quote from back in 1946:
""Recently we have seen a tremendous outcry at the T.U.C. conference against allowing Poles to work in the two places where labour is most urgently needed�in the mines and on the land...The fact is that there is strong popular feeling in this country against foreign immigration. It arises from simple xenophobia, partly from fear of undercutting in wages, but above all from the out-of-date notion that Britain is overpopulated and that more population means more unemployment.""
http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19461115.html
Well, at least the TUC have changed their tune, shame about the rest of you..."
"_AT_fortyniner ""If we want to batten down the hatches and stop the movement of people in to Britain, then foreigners will retaliate and do the same to us. We'll all be the poorer. Do we really want that to happen?""
Laugh, I nearly died. Many of your mates been emigrating to Somalia, Pakistan, Bangla Desh or similar hellholes then?"
"Australian immigration figures seem to indicate that there has been a dramatic surge in immigration from the UK, jumping from 12,081 in 1995/96 to 23,290 in 2005/2006. Given that our immigration policy has targeted business migration I guess that UK migrants are the quite productive ones you are losing.
In the same years our skilled immigration rose from 20,210 (95/96) to 59,507 (05/06).
Total immigration rose from 99,139 (95/96) to 131,593 (05/06). We don�t seem to have a lot of problems coping with these numbers with a population a tad over 20 million.
We don�t have erosion of wages for working people, like your commentators describe, notwithstanding that our labour market is far more decontrolled than it is in the UK. Because we don�t think it�s very smart to import cheap labour.
Total immigration from Southern Asia may be of interest. Total numbers for the years above were 7,073 (95/96) and 16,042 (05/06). The figures for India were 3,700 (95/96) and 11,286 (05/06) and Pakistan 603 (95/96) and 1,234 (05/06). We take the smart Hindus and leave the Moslems for the UK.
Total North Africa & Middle East (22 countries) were 7,606 (95/96) and 11,153 (05/06). The family re union and humanitarian countries. Unlike the UK Government, our Government runs a relatively sensible immigration programme that allows us to absorb a far greater percentage of migrants. Additionally, the racial mix we take in is far more heterogeneous than that of the UK.
All figures taken from Settler Arrivals 1995/1996 to 2005/2006
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/index.htm
Legrain, your argument that they only do the low paid work that no local wants to do is bollocks. It is the same nonsense that the US supporters of illegal immigration use to justify millions of tomato picking Mexicans. No country in their right mind wants to be inundated with low skilled workers. If there are not enough locals to do the bad jobs the market reacts by raising wages or by technical innovation. For years we had stacks of wharfies bludging around our docks. These low skill; make work jobs were ultimately decimated by efficient technology to the great benefit of all Australians.
We had lots of garbagemen (dustmen) too. Very few wanted to do it so we replaced the vast majority of them with trucks that pick the bins up with a big mechanical arm. We didn�t import dumb labour because no Australian wanted to do the job.
In your whole commentary you don�t mention the 500 pound gorilla called Moslem immigration. Why not a few statistics on this such as numbers on the dole, numbers who want you dead or numbers who hate your lifestyle?
I bet most UK citizens would like Oz�s Hindu to Moslem ratio."
"[AnObserver: I'm sure I'm not the first to point out that Britain is a nation of immigrants etc...]
A nation of immigrants is not the same as a nation of mass immigration.
The numbers are incomparable to past migrations, or ""a city the size of Birmingham every five years"" as Migrationwatch say, based on data primarily gleaned from the government's own statistics.
The idea that you appear to think ""it's OK, no different from the Huguenots!"" indicates you haven't conceptually grasped the scale involved."
"""Immigration energises our economy""
And cocaine energizes the body of an addict. Hooray.
What is the point of explaining anything to these idiots. I'll try anyway. A rising labor cost is the driver for productivty, which is the driver for wealth, yes even the wealth of indolent satanists such as our leaders. Periods of history and locations in which there is a steady rise in labor costs are those which see the greatest increases in wealth. The miracle of the twentieth century was based on strong productivity growth, not slave labor. In America, for example,`it was after the great depression when ""migration"" was stopped cold that all of the great leaps in productivity and national wealth began to happen. It has been since ""migration"" was opened without reserves that for the first time in so many years national wealth has begun a decline.
The South during the American civil war had a nearly unlimited supply of cheap labor, actually so cheap it was free labor. They ""did the jobs Southerners were unwilling to do."" The result was a stagnant culture, which was unable to grow and meet the future. That nation was destroyed off the earth for all time, and reviled to this day, mainly because their productivity was poor and their rivals in the north wiped them out.
Migrants in small numbers and both directions help to stimulate thought and interchange of ideas and are a good thing. Migrants in large numbers and one direction only is the work of the devil."
I agree completely with Legrain.You never had it so good and immigration is a major contributor.london now has 54 Billionaires who found it attractive to move here with their money according to Peter Snow(BBC 2)a few weeks ago. All communities benefit from this wealth creation but the wingers dont get it.Immigration is from all sectors skilled and unskilled and provide a necessary service in the economy.
"January 15, 2007 10:26 AM ""penfold37: ""Without them this country would fall flat on its face."" -------------------------------
Just like the Japanese have fallen on their face huh?""
Actually - the Japanese have a rapidly ageing population, shrinking workforce, have had a decade of deflation and high unemployment and a prolonged collapse in property values which are only now showing signs of positive price appreciation.
If the Yanks could actually build cars that they wanted to drive or decent consumer goods, Japan would be f#cked."
"On the contrary, were it not for foreign doctors and nurses, the NHS would collapse.
As someone who has worked in several areas of the UK in the NHS, I can acknowledge the input of migrants but to assume 'they' keep the nhs afloat is inaccurate.. yes, they may fill positions and therefore equate to the workforce, but in my experience the quality of the practice is often questionable. Now, to add balance to that statement. The nhs has historically employed 'migrants' especially the Irish and other UK countries and I have worked with Spanish, Germans and people from the African continent going back many years. In that time I have noticed that the safeguarding of standards of care and the quality of training for student nurse has become secondary to cost. Therefore the employment of a 'person' whichever country they originate from does not equate to higher standards and 'we' all suffer as a result, such as the faith in which patients have had in the nhs staff is effected because of language barriers and interpretation. The nurses who are poorly trained now get all the accountability of those who were trained when standards of training were higher and more important... the NMC should hang their expensive heads in shame as they know what is happening and do F.A. The indigenous country never get the 'skilled' workers they trained as they leave for the nhs that pays comparitively higher wages but may not train the nurses to the standard required previously (in the UK). The people who benefit from lower wages aren't the people who work, it's the people who employ. In my 20yrs of nhs working, I have never been given 'nurses' discount on my shopping, mortgage or any utility bill, so employing people who will do my job cheaper does help them or me... only my increasingly capitalistic managers who regard skills and standards as obstacles to getting the targets met."
"Haardvark:
While your math may be right, you have little understanding of Canada's geography. Because of our extremely cold weather in vast regions of our country, few people actually live in those areas. Our ""north"" is mostly populated by small numbers of our original peoples.
The reality is that the vast majority of Canadians live in a relatively narrow ribbon of land within a few hundred miles of the US/Canadian border where the climate is much more hospitable. Our immigrants/migrants naturally gravitate to our major cities in this limited area. So, the differences are not as great as you might think.
There is undoubtedly a racist undertone to many of the comments."
"smurfs75 writes -
""The stale old argument repeated ad-infinitum here is that wages have gone down because immigrants take jobs at lower rates.""
Maybe, but that's not the argument I'm making. I'm saying the immigration depresses wage growth. Why don't you address my argument instead of trying to knock me down with someone else's?
""The whole point is that the British wouldn't take the jobs on offer unless at inflated rates. You can argue that that is the market, but in real life people don't want to do menial jobs for any money. Motivation is more than the wage you get and such psychology bucks markets.""
Doing my best to extract some meaning from the above, I think you're agreeing with me here. Employers really are under less pressure to put up wages because of the many willing immigrants. Correct.
""Plus are you really prepared to put up with the economic damage runaway wage inflation would cause? You'd be the first on CIF whining about the risinig (sic) level of interest rates.""
Leaving aside that you don't know enough about me for that prediction to be anything other than a sneer, in fact you're wrong - one of the reasons I'm against our semi-uncontrolled immigration is the effect it has on interest rates and therefore on house prices. I pointed this out above - did you not read my post?
As for your paradox, what you wrote was that ""funny how the pro-business Right turns into phlegm-flecked, anti corporatists when immigration rears its ugly head ...""
As I have pointed out, on the contrary the CBI is very keen on immigration. You are just wrong on that one.
""Yes, unfortunately the anti-immigration argument relies a lot on hate-mongering.... It is not the liberal press spreading malicious myths and rumours about immigrants around working class estates in Essex is it?""
Maybe not, but it is on the other hand the liberal press and its readers who have been peddling the multiculturalist guff and who are now trying to shunt the anti-immigration argument onto a racist track. You're not fooling many people on here, but sadly there are plenty of other fools out there with floating votes, and the only beneficiaries thereof will be the BNP."
"Our wages are being devastated, our country is being swamped. Just because a middle class family can get their drive tarmacked for half as much as it costs to pay a UK builder DOES NOT MEAN IMMIGRATION IS A GOOD THING.
And as for Johnny Foreigner looking after our elderly for 50 pence an hour? Do you really class that as ""care""? See how the reality is when you're 90 and trying to explain to a Bulgarian immigrant on 50 pence an hour that you want the bedpan. He'll tell you he ""no understandey"" and leave you gripping the bedsheets with your buttock cheeks.
For GODS SAKE. STOP THEM NOW."
"It's interesting how many people mentioned Japan on this thread. Japan is an exceptional example among developed nations as it has an extremely low rate of immigration - just now. Like most developed nations with a plummeting birth rate, Japan is also going to have to make some hard choices about immigrant labour so let's not get over-excited about using Japan as an example of a successful country without immigration - its time will come. As regards the Japanese work ethic, I agree with some of the posters that it's not all it's cracked up to be, especially among professionals, but where I really see a difference here is the pride people take in their jobs, no matter what they do and the pride companies take in the number of people they employ rather than short term profits. Unlike Britain, two things stand out here. First, the level of service is incredible, not just becasue staffing is high, but because people don't have a chip on their shoulder about being a shop assistant or a doorman or whatever. Secondly, the absolute last ditch for any company in trouble is to make staff redundant unlike our 'cost-cutting' culture. I don't want to get into that topic here (not enough words) but as regards taking pride in your job, I honestly think we've lost a lot of that in Britain. I have been back home to Scotland twice in the last year and WITHOUT EXCEPTION the only decent service I received in shops or restaurants was from foreign young people (whether Australian/Polish/French whatever). If I were an employer, I would want to hire these young people, not to keep wages low (there is such a thing as minimum wage people!) but because they are hardworking, reliable and polite to customers. At the risk of sounding like Norman Tebbit's god-daughter, I think a lot of people in Britain need to shake up their ideas a bit. We all have access to free education to gain the knowledge and skills we need to get a decent job. Whether we choose to take advantage of that or to encourage our children to take advantage of it is a different matter. I am tired of hearing of the benefits trap. Even if you are already in it, at least encourage your children to find a way out. Sitting around blaming immigrants for taking jobs you didn't want to do anyway is just pathetic.
A couple more points: regarding some of the more blatantly racist comments, I would just like to point out that I have yet to meet a Polish person in the UK who doesn't speak English, frequently better that the appalling levels of so-called English spoken by the 'natives'. And also to the person who stated that Scandinavia and Australia dont have immigration and multi-culturalism rammed down their throats - check again. Both countries have significant immigrant populations (do I even have to point out that Oz is a nation based on immigration?) and both have similar challenges in managing the many benefits immigrants bring to a country whilst coping with the sadly inevitable right-wing reactions."
One of the biggest concerns I have as a young person, is getting onto the property market. Comparing Sweden to the UK - which is double the size - it has a highly educated population of 9 million compared to 60 million in the UK. The UK is a small island afterall - so there must be some negitive effects of migration on the housing market, especially in London?
At one time I was speaking to a Pakistani born Muslim who asked me how he would go about learning Arabic. I thought, how the hell would I know more about that than you. Turned out he meant aerobics. And they say they want to integrate�
Ken4, please explain why having the likes of Lakshmi Mittal, or several Russian robber barons here in the UK is a good thing? Thanks to Gordon, they don't pay tax on their overseas wealth, which means they live here virtually tax free. The UK is a huge tax haven to these people - even a British soldier on just �15K p/a pays more tax than them!
What is very revealing is that within the the neo-liberal ideological support for mass migration/cheap labour is a corresponding attack on those on welfare, those who just cannot work, etc. In the neo-liberal (read Tory) view: they say ''we should replace those lazy indigenous workers with dynamic entrepreneurial immigrants' Yet what will happen to these 'locals' if they have no means of support, do the right think they will just accept it? Some of the disgraceful comments from our right wing friends such as Meyer would bear this R/W way of thinking out. I suspect this is what is behind the N/Labour Gov't bid to smash welfare/social security in the UK, maybe mass migration/welfare reform are two sides of the same coin.
"LaSerenissima
Scandinavia has been successful (in the past) because it was all white.
I said Australian cricket team - which is white - and does well. While the English cricket team is all rainbow and does badly. Okay, not very scientific. I was being a little facetious. But the point about Scandi is more important. While Scandinavia, at least Sweden, has had an immigrant influx that immigration is not the cause of their success, established in the 670-70s when Sweden was completely white. Sweden has a huge problems with its immigrants, who cannot integrate into its hi-tech, high education society. Sweden is paying the price of its Guardian liberalism, and let in large numbers of non north European immigrants in the 1990s. Their unemployment rate is 30 percent. Rapes have quadrupled in the last ten years. The robbery rate is ten times higher in Swedish Malmo than in Danish Copenhagen. (The Danes don't let in immigrants anymore.) Denmark has immigrants but they are deported if they steal as much as a mobile phone. Sweden on the other hand just strokes their swaggering Muslim egoes with the most generous welfare payments in the world. Multiculturalism might yet work in some places, but in Sweden it has been a failure. Mono-ethnicity enabled Scandinavia to have hi tech, educated, stable, peaceful, economically successful welfare states where everyone worked hard and stood up for each other, because of similar ethnic stock. The welfare state was underwritten by the sense of Swedes thinking ""Well I am supporting my ethnic kin."" Now the social contract is collapsing because white Swedes no longer want to pay for swaggering Muslim criminals, so they go on paid sick leave. Sweden has the world's highest sick leave rates. I am a liberal, but even liberals have to deal with the world as it is, not as they would like it to be. People are like that."
"One of the arguments here is that immigrants drive down wages because living standards in their home country are so much worse than the living standard of the poorest here. That ensures immigrants are willing to do the same job for less than a native worker.
That doesn't sound like a good thing to me. If we really want the poorest people in the UK to have living standards comparable to those in the old Eastern Bloc, that's pretty easily done - just scrap benefits (and the rest of us can pay less tax). But if we find that unacceptable, why is it acceptable to ""import"" this lower wage floor by using immigrants?
Actually, I'm not against immigration. But what this highlights is the value of the minimum wage, and measures to make sure it's adhered to by employers using immigrant labour. Immigrant labour may make many people better off, but it's socially divisive to ignore the rise in inequality that it also brings."
"One major difference between the UK (and other European countries) and Australia, Canada and America is that our idea of nationhood is less well defined.
All nations are based on ethnicity - a shared language and culture - but in the new world countries this is made explicit. In Europe it is assumed, and as a result it is often poorly communicated and poorly absorbed. Having a self-indulgent, self-despising group of people in education and the media for whom nationalism is a bad (probably ""racist"") word makes this even harder.
If we were clearer on the requirements of belonging to our ethnic group we would have fewer problems like those below :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1990934,00.html
(In the interests of balance I should acknowledge that both Canada and Australia have recently disrupted Islamist terror plots - trials pending - so their systems aren't perfect either)."
"Once again, there's very good evidence that immigration raises wages across the *whole* labour market. Immigration has a beneficial effect on the wages of *both* skilled and unskilled labour.
Home office report on the local labour market effects of immigration: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/rdsolr0603.pdf
Here's an independent economists's (Christian Dustmann) take: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/Cpapers/ecoj_1038.pdf
The prospects for *economic* arguments against immigration are dim. The proponents of these arguments know so. Dustmann has also shown that by far the most important driver of attitudes to immigration is racial antipathy. See here: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/Cpapers/CDP_01_04.pdf
The fact of the matter is that anti-immigration feeling is driven by ethnocentrism (and worse)."
"Muktanada:
It is silly to attribute anything as complicated as (economic?) success to a single factor.
If it were true that more immigrants = lower trust = less economic success then the Uk economy should have by now seen signs of distress in the last decade of relatively high immigration. Which it hasn't
I haven't read the research you cite but I know that social capital is not the be and all and end all when it comes to economic success.
UK, Germany and the French football team are all successful as well, what is your point?"
"Ken4, the key to a modern prosperous economy is not attracting dodgy billionaires from abroad, it is to create a large well-educated prosperous middle-class, ie exactly the opposite of the increasingly hour-glass economy we�ve got in this country. Don�t listen to Peter Snow (or Gordon Brown for that matter) and his brainless propaganda. Read the business pages every day and little by little things will start making sense.
Plus, the notion according to which �everybody is benefiting from immigration� is just another piece of received wisdom; it�s simply more propaganda. But there�s one thing for certain, people�s ire should not be directed against immigrants, they�re not the ones making the decisions, they�re simply trying to improve their lot. I find British buy-to-rent profiteers buying up property in Eastern Europe infinitely more despicable than Polish immigrants coming to the UK (whom I actually don�t despise at all).
What Britain needs is a trade union movement with teeth and b*ll*cks."
Hi, This is addressed really at Disraellian as he said that foreign workers depressed prices which make goods cost less and that therefore we are better off. Please tell this to the property developers who seem bent on putting house prices up in flagrant disregard of Disraellian's somewhat limited understanding of the real world. I will also point out that I was served by a beautiful girl from Kyrgystan in the chip shop the other day and so even though I don't want foriegn workers on my building site, I don't mind them working in the fast food industry.
"[Lamington], ""The real scandal of this issue"" is not ""that the British people have never been given a say as to whether or not they wish to live in a multicultural society,"" but that they have been forcibly prevented from doing so whenever they have tried by being condemned and dismissed as ""racists"".
[penfold37], ""if someone is willing to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to work in this country, then they have the drive and determination that this country does not see enough of"", you write.
I couldn't disagree more! If they had the drive and determination (and pride of self-achievement) that generations of native West Europeans have shown - pulling themselves up by their bootstraps from the medieval state they were once in - they would create the possibilities (material wealth and freedoms) that we (and the Japanese, for example) have in their OWN countries, to suit their own histories, cultures and mentalities, instead of coming here and clashing with ours, to take advantage of what others had already created.
Not that I blame them for taking advantage of our own government's and businesses' stupidly short-sighted self-interest in their cheap labour.
I'll probably be accused of ""racism"" for writing that, as critics of mass immigration and multicultural society usually are, in order to dismiss them without having to listen to arguments contrary to their own short-sighted self-interests, or political ideology.
More of my views on the MADNESS of mass immigration and the ""melting pot"" of multi-racial/multicultural society at http://www.spaceship-earth.org/Letters/Editor/Index-non-pc.htm"
Immigration not a threat? Try telling that to the roofer who has seen his hourly rate fall by �2.50 since the eastern europeans moved in. This is a big impact and a threat (�100 pound a week before tax). Obviously we should pay the immigrant parity, but that wouldn't be good economics.
"What we certainly don't need is trade unions to attempt to bring the country to its knees again. The biggest tool in increasing wealth is continuous economic growth, and pursuing policies that deliver that are the best thing to ensuring less people in poverty. When it comes to immigration, people get completely besotted with the idea that they drive wages in certain jobs down. The reality is that technology has a far bigger impact anyway, and that immigrants tend to move to areas where there are labour shortages already (Scotland in particular and seasonal work in general).
Comments above seeking to explain how the Aussie cricket team is successful because it's white only are - apart from being distasteful - completely wide of the mark. Look at the all white dross in the England cricket team in the 90s for example."
"I find most of the ""working"" (= illiterate ASBOtastic scrounging) classes to be a threat.
Is there no way we could ship all these spides, chavs, neds and scangers off to Poland?"
"Toadborg,
See my above post above Sweden's decline.
The Swedish formula was Success = Teamwork = communication + good will + organisation.
None of these factors were facilitated by immigration.
I met a Swedish travel agent once. She said they had repeat custom, excellent environment. She never broke sweat and knocked off at 2 every day to skiing.
She then paid a study trip to one of those London yuppie backpacker travel agencies you've all bought your Australia/ Round the world tickets from. I didn't say it was called Ebookers. Back office (the freephone call centre bit), under fluoresecent lights, Dickensian rows of desks were full of all the nations in the world, talking to all nationalities in the world. Shouting down the phone, cutting people off, dealing with other people's ticketing problems, ringing up the indian run ticket upstairs who spoke no English. All trying to reach their commission. She said no consultant could trust any other to deal with his booking, or even the ticket office to ticket. So every consultant had to chase literally everything up, through all four stages through to dispatching - massively inefficient. There was a lot of hidden and so hidden racism between the Ozzies and the Turks, the Indians and the Arabs...you name it.
She preferred the Swedish way of doing business.
That is one of the aspects of trust.
Here are others: it's also worth reading Peter Brimelow and George Borjas, the latter another famous economist who, to his surprise, has arrived at politically correct answers.
http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_01_15/cover.html"
I'm interested that there are hardly any posters here willing to jump on the offensive and borderline racist rubbish people are getting away with here, particularly the post by vigorniensis, which is fundamentally saying "the BNP have the right idea"! The sooner this country wakes up and realises that it is secular and multicultural and that Heartbeat isn't a heartwarming documentary, the better.
Dapper i agree with your 9.04 post the benefit system in this country allows chislers to bend the system to there own needs and it is shameful. My point is its easy to bring up immigration as a problem every time the media and politicians see fit. If these people want to work and live here it should be embraced not turned into somesort of witch hunt
"One very true point is made in this article: that many modern migrant workers are ""international commuters."" Apparently as many as 2 out of every 3 migrants go home within 2 years, and I suspect that only a very small few will actually settle abroad.
The ""hard to employ"" claptrap is nonsense. Never has it been easier to get a job and whatever about climbing social ladders, you can certainly fairly easily do better than the starvation levels at which welfare has been pitched over the last few years, even on relatively low wages. One thing I learned from 6 years of living around the UK in Ireland in the lower end, cheaper quality accomodation in which my neighbours were mostly those on welfare showed to me that for a large proportion of people welfare dependency is as much a lifestyle choice as it is a predicament: only a few weeks ago a ""friend of a friend"" bemoaned the fact that her application for long term disability was turned down - she actually believed that she was entitled to choose not to work and get paid for doing nothing (she suffers from depression but is not debilitated by it) and was quite surprised when this was a view not shared by the local deciding officers! What really does need to be assessed right now is why so many people choose to stay on tiny incomes despite opportunity, what will make them change their mind, how their needs can be met.
Young immigrants in any case are generally looking for work experience they wouldn't get at home, wages far above whats back there, and its good when they can take it home to improve things there also. After all, many EU countries were very happy to emigrate to Australia, the US and other EU countries when it suited them (indeed many felt entitled to the right). The particular discrimination against the black community in the particular exclusion of Africa is nothing short of blatant racism, particularly when you consider that a few African countries have literacy levels far above that of some EU countries."
"emmanuelgoldstein
I disagree with your reading of the economic literature. Immigration tends to benefit most workers, but is detrimental to those native workers who compete directly with the immigrants. That's why an influx of immigrants into low-skilled jobs is often felt to be socially divisive.
As I understand it, what evidence there is suggests that economies that have a more even distribution of income tend to perform better than those where inequality is more pronounced - perhaps because there is a greater feeling that everyone is ""pulling in the same direction"", leading to more goodwill and flexibility.
Personally, I don't see this as an argument against immigration, but as highlighting the need for the ""winners"" from globalisation to offer some compensation the ""losers"" via a redistributive tax and benefits system (and a minimum wage), in the interests of social cohesion and long-term economic performance."
I can't stand the lack of discussion. We are told that immigration is an entirely positive invigorating thing, and that British people won't do the work anyway. We are also told that the population is ageing and we will need immigration to support the country in the future. If that's really true, why are no other options ever discussed, like trying to increase the birth rate through supporting parents as is done in Singapore? I think immigration has made the UK a fantastic cosmopolitan country, but it seems anyone who questions further mass immigration is labelled a racist. Why? I visited London this summer, and, it has to be said, there were an enormous number of Poles about the place, and the wages for builders have been effectively reduced by about 30%. I am a great fan of our Polish cousins, but are we not allowed even to question the wisdom of allowing a million of them into the UK, long term?
"In response to emmanuelgoldstein who point to this report I took some time to read as much of it as I could stomach. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/rdsolr0603.pdf
First thing to says is it goes out of its way to talk in obfuscating language to make it hard to work out what they are trying to say.
Here are a few choice quotes from it . Yes I know some are taken out of context but I only have 5000 words to use.
Ok First off on the reliabity of it:-
## >>
""statistical reliability of these estimates is sometimes weak.""
""These data sources have serious weaknesses in the current context, particularly in that they do not allow a distinction to be drawn between unemployment and wage levels of those already resident and those of immigrants.""
""spatial information is necessary to construct measures of regional concentration of immigrants. Many survey data sets do not include detailed spatial information."" <<
So in short its all based on unreliable information.
Secondly its based on rather dodgy models.
>> "" The basic model has the following features: the economy produces several goods using several labour types; some of these goods are traded internationally at prices fixed on world markets; the number of workers of each labour type is determined by immigration and their labour is fleexibly supplied depending on the wage; and in the long run, there is free entry of firms into profitable sectors. "" <<
So it seams to assume that you must have immigrant labour to force down wages, doesnt appear to consider the 0 immigrant case.
More dodgy models :- >> ""Finally, suppose that there are two goods and two labour types. If immigration raises the share of one skill group, then that skill group su�ers short run wage falls relative to the other skill group. The sector using that skill group intensively will become relatively profitable. Accordingly, it expands, bidding the wages of that skill group back up relative to the other skill group. Adjustments are now no longer a matter simply of technical substitution in production of a single output. In the long run wages return to their initial level and the output mix shifts towards the sector using relatively intensively the labour type which dominates in immigration. This is an application of the well known Rybczinski theorem (see Rybczinski 1955). Factor price insensitivity holds. "" << This sounds very suspect to me as a model for the economy.
Thirdly even with there dodgy models and unreliable data they predict short term wage depriciation. If there there is short term deprection and a eternal supply of immigrants doesnt that mean holding dowen long term wages ??
>> ## ""Even within such models, however, short run effects are typically to be expected as the economy adjusts, provided that the skill composition of the immigrant inflows differs from that of the resident population.""
""shocks to the economic success of a particular region may lead to increased immigration.""
""There is some weak evidence that immigration affects employment prospects of existing residents negatively""
""I find relatively modest employment effects of recent immigrant inflows in all but a few high - immigrant cities."" # <<
So what this last bit appears to be saying is that where there is immigration there is a problem and where there isnt immigration it isnt a problem.
Fourthly it appears to force people out of areas. Can someone please tell me how this differs from Ethnic cleansing, if the immigrants are of a differnt ethnicity to the original population ?
## >> ""Out-migration of existing residents as a response to economic effects of immigration may again compromise the accuracy of the estimated impact of immigration"" << ##"
"Since you�ve all been very good I�ll tell you an immigration �success story�. Are you all sitting comfortably? Then I�ll begin.
Once upon a time (in the 1950s, 60s and 70s) a country called France had an economy which was developing at a very fast pace. It drew on its former colonies (mainly North Africa) for cheap labour, encouraging people to build a bright future for themselves in France and allowing them to settle there with their wives and kids because �the economy� needed them... Then came a recession: no more widespread demand for unskilled labour... Then for about 25 years the country sort of forgot about these people, many of whom went from being cheap labour to being on the dole; ""the economy"" didn't need them anymore but since they�d been given the right to settle in France and since they�d produced many children who were automatically given French citizenship, the vast majority of them couldn�t be persuaded to go back to where they came from (although they were offered money by the government to do so). And one day in November 2005, some 30 years after recession first hit, the country woke up with the smell not of coffee but of thousands of burning cars and realized that it had a population of some 5 million Muslims, a significant minority of whom felt really angry and totally alienated from the mainstream of the French population. Today few people would argue that the benefits of mass immigration during the boom years haven�t been outweighed by the almost intractable problems it has created for French society 30 years down the line. And the moral of the story isn't that foreign people are bad, it is that an immigration policy based on greedy short-termism is never a good one. Good night."
"muktananda, I've heard about the problems in Malmo and I wish the pro-immigration folks would take into account th negative aspects of immigration such as the Swedes are experiencing there.
Here's a series of reports on the effects of some of the immigration problems that European countries are experiencing:
Sweden: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2219614634693551009
Spain: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6298661636815097693
France: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6380678124761974783
I'll post the report on Britain later."
">>Dapper i agree with your 9.04 post the benefit system in >>this country allows chislers to bend the system to there >>own needs and it is shameful.
The only thing shameful about the benefit system is that a grown man is expected to survive on �57 a week. Try it sometime and get back to us on how much ""fun"" you found it."
"Sorry for te repost but I must have used some wrong characters cus it ate half my post.
In response to emmanuelgoldstein who point to this report I took some time to read as much of it as I could stomach. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/rdsolr0603.pdf
First thing to says is it goes out of its way to talk in obfuscating language to make it hard to work out what they are trying to say.
Here are a few choice quotes from it . Yes I know some are taken out of context but I only have 5000 words to use.
Ok FIRST off on the reliabity of it:-
##
""statistical reliability of these estimates is sometimes weak.""
""These data sources have serious weaknesses in the current context, particularly in that they do not allow a distinction to be drawn between unemployment and wage levels of those already resident and those of immigrants.""
""spatial information is necessary to construct measures of regional concentration of immigrants. Many survey data sets do not include detailed spatial information."" ##
So in short its all based on unreliable information.
SECONDLY its based on rather dodgy models. ## "" The basic model has the following features: the economy produces several goods using several labour types; some of these goods are traded internationally at prices fixed on world markets; the number of workers of each labour type is determined by immigration and their labour is fleexibly supplied depending on the wage; and in the long run, there is free entry of firms into profitable sectors. "" ##
So it seams to assume that you must have immigrant labour to force down wages, doesnt appear to consider the 0 immigrant case. Also isnt most of our goods made overseas anyway these days? I doesnt appear to take goods made by uk companies overseas into account.
THIRDLY even with there dodgy models and unreliable data they predict short term wage depriciation. If there there is short term deprection and a eternal supply of immigrants doesnt that mean holding dowen long term wages ??
## ""Even within such models, however, short run effects are typically to be expected as the economy adjusts, provided that the skill composition of the immigrant inflows differs from that of the resident population.""
""shocks to the economic success of a particular region may lead to increased immigration.""
""There is some weak evidence that immigration affects employment prospects of existing residents negatively""
""I find relatively modest employment effects of recent immigrant inflows in all but a few high - immigrant cities."" ##
So what this last bit appears to be saying is that where there is immigration there is a problem and where there isnt immigration it isnt a problem.
LASTLY it appears to force people out of areas. Can someone please tell me how this differs from Ethnic cleansing, if the immigrants are of a differnt ethnicity to the original population ?
## ""Out-migration of existing residents as a response to economic effects of immigration may again compromise the accuracy of the estimated impact of immigration"" ##"
"dreamer06
""In the neo-liberal (read Tory) view: they say ''we should replace those lazy indigenous workers with dynamic entrepreneurial immigrants' Yet what will happen to these 'locals' if they have no means of support, do the right think they will just accept it? Some of the disgraceful comments from our right wing friends such as Meyer would bear this R/W way of thinking out.""
Australia has been following an immigration policy focused on 'dynamic entrepreneurial migrants"" for years and the locals seemed to have accepted it pretty well. Lazy indigenous workers are no different than lazy immigrant workers. Both should be kicked in the arse. We are cursed with our native born lazies but that is no reason to import foreign lazies or uneducated twats. I'm amazed that you have solidarity with the lazy. And trust me, ""dynamic entrepreneurial migrants"" do not take the jobs of lazy indigenous workers. Lazy indigenous workers have the low paid jobs and we aren't importing substitutes for them; unlike the U.K.
Even worse, according to many comments, non lazy indigenous workers in the U.K. are being replaced by the swamping effect of cheap foreign labour. As I said in my original comment we don't have that problem. Tradesman are in short supply in Australia and many of our new migrants are tradesman from the U.K. targeted by our government because they have a skill we need and they fit in just fine and dandy.
It's very simple. Think of a country like a business. Your prospective immigrants are like job applicants - you only need so many so you pick the ones that are going to be most useful. You know, the smart ones - with something to offer that you need - who want to join and mix in. Low end migrants do low productivity jobs and low productivity jobs are not what any business or country needs.
And what part of my comment was disgraceful and why?"
well, I am living and working in switzerland, and luckily I tend to be in demand in my profession. And yet, although I wanted to move back to the uk, especially london where the opportunities for me would be the most challenging, I was totally detered by the ridiculous housing costs, so I thought 'screw this', and I'm staying here for now. Housing prices in the UK are a bloody joke.
"Brimstone:
Those videos are borderline racist (as much of the comment on here incidentally)
The implication is that immigrants (or muslim immigrants at least) are by their nature problematic and different in an intractable way that can only cause problems, that they are violent and dangerous in a way that 'natives' are not.
This is bollocks (clearly the point needs to be made to all you 'liberal' guardian readers)"
"The Japanese experience is another argument in favour of mono-ethnicity.
North2South: yes, low income differences seem to make everyone in a society happier beyond the pleasures that the money confers. Immigration arguably increases income inequalities.
Brimstone: Sweden's experience with immigration has been a disaster, a largely hidden one from the rest of Europe. Like the good girl in the family who doesn't want to tell anyone in the family she has had an abortion.
Imagine: the arrival of hundreds of thousands of Kurds, Smalians, Bosnians, Iraqis, Algerians asylum seekers to a country which hasn't fought a war for 200 years.
These arrivals are more proficient in handling a Kalashnikov than interested in handling the finer points of Swedish grammar or capable of integrating into the Web 2.0 biotech economy of their host country.
The result: native population, especially its young, suffer an embarrassing amount of violence, because this is the only thing the immigrants know.
Magazines for Swedish teenage girl have articles headed ""How not to provoke a Muslims"". A group of Swedish high school girls have invented and patented a modern kind of chastity belt, to stop them being raped.
It is said that Sweden is the first country in the world to conspire in its own self colonisation. In the Malmo immigrant quarters, you can buy T-shirts in Arabic that say ""In twenty years this will be ours."""
"Immigration highlights the problem of the infrastructure not being up to scratch. Unfortunately improving it costs money, so the government are more easily persuaded to restrict immigration instead.
I remember back when asylum seekers were widely perceived to be the biggest problem (again thanks to deficient government policies) I once read the editorial of The Sun, which claimed they had no problem with economic migrants - only uneconomic migrants. I'm wondering: have they changed their tune, and if so, when? I can't find anything about it on their website."
"Remember folks. If you contradict the bien-pensant left on the dubious benefits of uncontrolled mass-immigration, you are.....
A) Stupid B) Bigoted C) Racist D) Scum
The smug left-liberal middle-classes hate and despise the working class. They see the working classes as untermensch, which is why they always have plenty if insults ready to hand should anybody have the cheek to disagree with them"
Someone removed my earlier post. Given that it criticised Mr Legrain for either not understanding economics or being a propagandist, my guess is he removed it himself thus proving that he is a propagandist.
Economic this, economic that ... it would be nice if immigration levels were considered in terms of socio-cultural impact first, and economic impact second or third. It's little wonder that immigration has soared to the top of the "public concerns" list when the public is anxious about its social repercussions but all the politicians, commentators and businessmeisters ever seem to talk about is money money money.
"Toadborg, would it be too much to suggest you get a dictionary and clarify for yourself that race and religion are two different things?
Not all immigrants are problematic, nor are all Muslims.
In fact the main radicalisation of Muslims in the UK is the result of preaching from Saudi Arabia (and to a lesser extent by the Indian Deobandis) rather than their own historical traditions they originally brought with them (which were heavily Sufi-inspired).
Organsiations like the MCB, whose leadership receive substantial funding from Saudi Wahabbi preachers, have accelerated this by presenting Wahabbism as some kind of ""mainstream"" Islam.
We've played our part by not enforcing the rule of law on these preachers and their followers in the name of ""multi-culturalism."" If we're all going to live in peace in the same country, we're all going to need to be part of the same ethnic group, in language, politics, culture and law.
Which means tackling people like Dr Mian (who gained his qualifications in Saudi Arabia). Dr Mian's organisation runs 41 mosques in Britain.
Dr Mian: ""You have to live like a state within a state until you take over""
Dr Mian: ""King, Queen, House of Commons. If you accept it, you are a part of it. You don�t accept it, you have to dismantle it. So you being a Muslim you have to fix a target, there will be no House of Commons. From that White House to this Black House, we know that we have to dismantle it""
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1984616,00.html
Full transcript:
http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/3266/1/"
"Toadborg: ""The implication is that immigrants (or muslim immigrants at least) are by their nature problematic and different in an intractable way that can only cause problems, that they are violent and dangerous in a way that 'natives' are not.""
---------------------------------
In every country with large scale immigration from muslim countries there do seem to be many problems that occur as a result of those immigrants or their children.
The same problems you see in Britain with very high unemployment, very low education, very high crime rate, etc.. are seen across Europe and in countries outside of Europe."
"It would interest me to know whether the author and his believers actually know any individuals from Poland/Lithuania etc who have come over in the last couple of years?
It is all very well to look at the economic statistics and say 'it is good' but what about the humanitarian considerations?
Most immigrants make no effort whatsoever to integrate into society or care about giving something back, that is probably because the majority of people (like Monsieur Legrain) do not recognise the fact that we are talking about human beings, not some sort of cheap battery who is there simply to boost the economy of the country.
I would therefore agree with most people on this blog who feel that quality of life has suffered since mass immigration started a few years ago."
Here's the segment on Britain: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8721039427974111781
"Yes, I noticed the use of "" us"". That's got to be left of centre journalists hasn't it? - there aren't busloads of Romanian hacks at our borders are there? ""Us"" is certainly not plasters, bricklayers , who have constructed a "" British"" identity for themselves.
I guess a lot of posters here are from middle class backgrounds. One thing that seems to be consistent in the Guardian and CiF is an undercurrent that seems to convey disrespect for working class people in this country. Whether this is just "" leakage ""or intent I'm not sure.
Because of this , whatever the economic truth of immigration is, many ""working class"" will only ever hear what they think you are saying, not what you actually mean."
Nabanab MMmmm. Left of centre middle class journalists face a threat to. You. And me.
"Well said Waltz :- ""Economic this, economic that ... it would be nice if immigration levels were considered in terms of socio-cultural impact first, and economic impact second or third. It's little wonder that immigration has soared to the top of the ""public concerns"" list when the public is anxious about its social repercussions but all the politicians, commentators and businessmeisters ever seem to talk about is money money money. ""
Its a shame that the government cant be sued for trying to incite hatred, by trying to grow large groupings of different cultures in a already overcrowded island.The problem is they seem blissfully ignorant of the fact that tensions can build up between different cultures.
Mass immigration into america was different because they had lots of spare land and because they all arrived together it created a melting pot. Sort of filling up the empty space. But we are full up to start with there isnt enough housing and the transportation system is groaning under the strain. Pouring more people in will only lead to tensions and resentment building up. This can lead to hatred, which will have been unnecessarily created by the government.
Once you have tensions built up trouble can start from almost anything. Including false accusations. Like the 2001 Bradford riots.
Building the conditions for hatred to breed is a very bad idea, it is also what the government is doing.Its just a shame they appear unnacountable for the consequences of their actions.
Btw Im in no way trying to incite hatred of anybody here, just pointing out the things that can lead to hatred."
"_AT_ bearsall
""Maybe, but that's not the argument I'm making. I'm saying the immigration depresses wage growth. Why don't you address my argument instead of trying to knock me down with someone else's?""
Oh get over yourself bearsall. You were the only one who brought in the ""depresses wage growth"" angle. I was referring to 99.9% of the posts prior to yours.
""Doing my best to extract some meaning from the above, I think you're agreeing with me here. Employers really are under less pressure to put up wages because of the many willing immigrants. Correct.""
Nope, you�re being over simplistic again. I say that filling vacancies is not simply a matter of putting up wages (as a manager, been there, done that). Clear enough for you now? I even go on to illuminate you on what this would do to the wider economy.
""Leaving aside that you don't know enough about me for that prediction to be anything other than a sneer, in fact you're wrong - one of the reasons I'm against our semi-uncontrolled immigration is the effect it has on interest rates and therefore on house prices. I pointed this out above - did you not read my post?""
What's with the rhetorical victimhood?
Onto the matter at hand: Come and live here in the South East. You'll find the ""immigration causes high house prices"" argument is complete codswallop. I live in commuter-belt Kent and the problem here is entirely due to lack of supply caused by arcane planning laws, rampant Tory inspired nimbyism and growth in native single occupancy households. Moreover, runaway house price inflation predates the current rise in immigration. That's your myth buried.
""As I have pointed out, on the contrary the CBI is very keen on immigration. You are just wrong on that one.""
Yes the CBI is keen on immigration. Try some other rightwing organs though: The Telegraph, Conservative Party, Mail, Sun etc all place themselves as pro free market. Yet they are the first to whinge when immigration rises (as nationalists they mistakenly believe they can manipulate voters by flag waving and promises to defend the natives � with you they've succeeded it seems). Yet another example of rightwing double standards.
""Maybe not, but it is on the other hand the liberal press and its readers who have been peddling the multiculturalist guff and who are now trying to shunt the anti-immigration argument onto a racist track. You're not fooling many people on here, but sadly there are plenty of other fools out there with floating votes, and the only beneficiaries thereof will be the BNP.""
The BNP doesn't flourish because The Guardian says immigration is good, nor because it may or may not promote multiculturalism. The BNP's successes are solely down to malicious stories like the Sun's one about asylum seekers eating Swans, or the Express declaring the 7/7 bombers to be ""Spongeing Asylum Seekers"", or the Conservative press in general printing nothing but negative smears about immigrants. In other words daily rightwing incitement.
The BNP is a toxic by product of rightwing rabble-rousing, not the left's. Get a grip.
I refer you again to Mr Legrain's article which has debunked your stance on immigration anyway. Enlighten yourself again."
"[AntonioV], thanks for telling us your immigration ""success story�, and the moral you drew from it. It rings depressingly true, and not just for France.
Just as a century ago, the leaders of Europe's most ""advanced nations"" were leading us, full of self-confidence and self-righteousness, towards the First and then the Second World War (providing the fertile soil for the rise of Hitler), now they are leading us towards an even bigger catastrophe, inviting millions of immigrants into our already overpopulated countries to help grow and partake in economies and lifestyles (and lifestyle aspirations) that are inherently unsustainable on our finite and vulnerable planet.
My homepage: http://www.spaceship-earth.org"
"Did anyone see this joker Legrain on ""Newsnight"" the other week? When asked to provide an example of the advantages of immigration the best he could splutter was that a Polish nanny meant that an investment banker could go back to work!
Evan Davies, the BBC's economics editor had it right when he said that immigration means there are winners and losers and until people like Legrain acknowledge this, I'll refuse to take anything they say seriously.
The economics are bad but as some people have alluded to on this forum, there is also the social cost. When I look at how much my area has been transformed in the past two years - the rise of multi-occupancy households; a huge influx of young males who have little or no regard for the area (hence the increase in noise, litter, speeding cars, spitting, unkempt gardens etc); the fact that most of these people have little or no English so you can't communicate with them - I feel despair. I used to love coming back to my home, but now I hate it. Yes, I know this is just my personal experience, but speaking to many others (and I do mean many who have lived in the area for years, they feel the same way too. The fact is that what little community feeling there was is being further eroded by this influx. I suspect the same scenario is being played out in many communities across the UK.
The fact is that the government blew it with its open door immigration policy. Too many people were allowed in too soon and with too little forethought or planning. Now councils and the government are running to catch up but the damage is done. It's interesting that those who support immigration never answer the question that has been posed several times: are you happy for another million, 10 million, 50 million people to settle here?
The fact s that out economy is based on a merry-go-round of imported cheap workers. It used to be the Irish, then Africans, then Asians, today it's the Poles, tomorrow the Romanians. Then what? Well, there are always the Turks. But try as we might, we'll never compete with China and India when it comes to cheap labour.
All I do know is that no matter what Labour does, I'll never vote for them again after this."
Legrain is just an overpromoted young asshole who used to be a WTO press officer and has used all his connections (Economist internship, WTO, Westminster) to get ahead and write this book, fronting the self interested arguments of his international business elite chums.
"Just sampled a few of the posts and I note an obsession with statistics , quite a lot of hysteria and some attempts to try and establish a set of rational economic, political and social arguments.
If only we lived in a rational moral world!
The fact is that where we are is determined by a complex set of factors about which we are unlikely to reach agreement. Hard times are relatively though rarely evenly distributed. For most of us, though it is a mixture of swings and roundabouts with the occasional rollercoaster ride. Chill out- enjoy the ride. And stop kidding yourself that you I or any collective is really in control of anything save what we choose to believe. Blaming Immigrants for our problems is an old trick employed by those with facist tendencies on a power trip- I don�t honestly believe that many posters here are unaware of that. So cut it out ey or piss off to the daily mail where you belong"
If there were not so many immigrants coming to this country there would not be so many people wanting to leave this country as fast as they can afford to do so. Also, if there were not so many immigrant children in schools who do not understand English there would not be so many children falling behind in basic education. Is this really the way forward?
"DaleyThompson,
You're entirely right to admit you've plucked quotes out of context.
1. [statistical reliability of these estimates is sometimes weak] This is on p. 6 and it refers to the reliability of estimates of the degree to which wages have been increased by immigration.
2. [These data sources have serious weaknesses in the current context, particularly in that they do not allow a distinction to be drawn between unemployment and wage levels of those already resident and those of immigrants.]
'These' refers to Census results between 1971 and 1991, and the New Earnings Survey between 1980 and 1990. Since they also examine Census data, it is difficult to see what your case for dismissing their findings is. Also, in section 3, they explain how they compensate for the patchiness of the data. It'd be helpful if you actually readtheir methodology section. They explain (at some length !) how their data analysis is designed to solve correlation issues. Look carefully at section 3.
3. [spatial information is necessary to construct measures of regional concentration of immigrants. Many survey data sets do not include detailed spatial information.]
The authors of the report note that it is difficult to obtain spatial information from the *Labour Force Survey*. It *is*, however, possible to obtain spatial information from the *Census* data. Which is precisely why they combine Census and Labour Force Survey data: the shortcomings of the LFS are made up for by the Census data.
4.[The basic model has the following features: the economy produces several goods using several labour types; some of these goods are traded internationally at prices fixed on world markets; the number of workers of each labour type is determined by immigration and their labour is fleexibly supplied depending on the wage; and in the long run, there is free entry of firms into profitable sectors.]
4a. [[ (i)So it seams to assume that you must have immigrant labour to force down wages, doesnt appear to consider the 0 immigrant case. (ii) Also isnt most of our goods made overseas anyway these days? I doesnt appear to take goods made by uk companies overseas into account. (c) THIRDLY even with there dodgy models and unreliable data they predict short term wage depriciation. If there there is short term deprection and a eternal supply of immigrants doesnt that mean holding dowen long term wages ?? ]]
You claim, in 4a(ii), that they don't consider the 0-immigrant case. That doesn't follow from what they say in the excerpt in (4). 4a (ii) is irrelevant because the survey aims to determine the effect of immigration into the UK on wages paid out in the UK. The survey finds that wages will tend to go up. See p. 48:
'According to the most robust estimate, an increase in immigration amounting to one per cent of the non-immigrant population would lead to just under a two per cent increase in average non-immigrant wages.'
So I'm unsure how you arrive at your conclusion in 4a(iii) that wages across the labour market will, in either the short or long term, go down."
"""When are the PC lot going to address the real issues?""
I know. I'm a mac person. PCs crash too often, hence my praise for the mac."
"Dear Philippe,
I hate to sound despondent, but I think only two people are going to buy your new book. Wow, what a bummer.
Your profile says: 'He has been special adviser to World Trade Organisation director general Mike Moore, trade and economics correspondent for the Economist and director of policy for Britain in Europe, the pro-European campaign group.'
So that's why the world is in such a mess ..."
"The usual arrogant, self-serving, racist against the indiginous population, ""feeding my psychological needs because I'm a lefty"" twaddle. Immigrants do threaten our society. There's a minimum of two million Muslims in Britain now. Islam is totally incompatible with and destructive of our culture, values and way of life. Just that two million is the equivalent of over 80 million extremist Bible-belt type of white Americans permanently immigrating to India.
We've already had British cities turned into foreign cities, our rights are banned and controlled and oppressed on many fronts. From the banning of the term ""Christian name"" to the banning of indiginous people from having free-speech.
Why is this bloke got aforeign name. Presumably because the media is dominated by the leftwing ""feed ny need"" misfit type. We rarely see British names any more in the media. ""Fear of foreigners is nothing new, yet rarely has panic about immigration been so feverish."" Aroogant insulting nonsense. Leftwingers are always convinced their own wierd panic atttack obssessions are widespread and attribute them to others they look down on. (Freud caaled it dispplacement.) People aren't panicked. They're sensibly concerned.
He also gives dishonest, misleading figures. This worthless article is another bit of propaganda in the lefty campaign which says: ""you have no rights if you don't kowtow to the leftwing mafia."" The entire article is childish, dishonest claptrap. The N.H.S. would not ""collapse"" without foreigners. He shouln't panic, and engage in such hysteria, and stop writing dumb articles to set up bogeymen, then he might have less ""jangling raw nerves"".
I haven't got time to cover the lies in last few paragraphs, but I'm sure others will counter them. (For instance his arrogant insults about the indiginous population needing the naturally superior foreigner to bring them up to some sort of human level, and his lies about unemployment and exclusion and all that leftwing baby-talk."
"A net in-flow of 185,000 per year may not sound like much, but that is the population of Portsmouth. So where would you like your new Portsmouth this year? In the Lake District? What about next year? Perhaps you have room for another in Hampshire.
From this yank's perspective, you do a marvelous job of maintaining the rural character of your country, which happens to be the most beautiful I've visited. But England has a population density of about 1,000 per square mile, ten times that of America, which itself is overcrowded in places, and I read constantly of development pressures that threaten your countryside in this very (excellent) newspaper.
One need not be BNP, or racist, or ethnocentric, to worry about the ENVIRONMENTAL effects of population growth, especially in places that are already crowded. All the economic 'growth' that you sunny free-marketers always bring up to justify unlimited immigration will count for little if you destroy the spiritual foundations of human life that emanate from nature.
Some immigration is good for any society, but at the rates that it occurs both in the UK and in the US, where we have one million LEGAL immigrants per year, it cannot be healthy, and only Pollyannas on both the left and right could claim it to be."
As an addendum to my previous post, here is a beautiful lamentation, written by the travel writer Paul Theroux, on the topic of how population growth strips the beauty and mystery from life. It quotes a British author on the same topic. http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0102-63.htm
"""Consider old-age care, the fastest-growing sector of employment. Young Britons eschew it. To persuade them otherwise would require a huge wage hike - and since public finances are strained, that implies either pensioners making do with less care, budget cuts elsewhere, or tax rises. But immigrants face a different set of alternatives: since wages in London are five times higher than in Warsaw, they are happy doing such work. This is not exploitation: it makes everyone - migrants, taxpayers, Britons young and old - better off."" -------------------------- By this logic the young are certainly not better off. There is a transfer of utility from young to old... The old continue to get cheap care and the young continue to be paid less. If the immigrants weren't filling the gaps the old would clearly pay more for their care to the young and take less of it.
That is the logic. Whether immigration is a good or bad thing cannot be determined so simply. The same applies to all jobs that immigrants tend to do, all groups that would do them and all purchasers of the relevant goods and services. Immigration is good for immigrants, the middle and upper classes and bad for those competing for jobs."
Like Mr Legrain I would also like people in poorer countries to reach the same standard of living as us. But I suggest that they stay where they are and we increase our aid, substantially, to help achieve this. I would be happy to pay more in taxes in order to fund this. The indiginous population of Britain has for some time had a declining population which would mean some strain on the welfare state, but less on the environment. Property would be cheaper for the young and the scarcity of labour would mean those at the bottom could achieve higher rates of pay. I realise that those with the money would move it abroad, but that is the point of increasing aid for developing countries. That way there is no where for the money to go. Those people who have refugee status would, of course, be welcome.
"emmanuelgoldstein:-
Ok Ive had another wade through the document, so I can rebut your rebuttle. (That document is orrable ) I swear its designed purely to stop people being able to interpret it.
Ok you say ""The survey finds that wages will tend to go up"" This appears to be assuming that people are being forced out of the uk and that only the economically competitive immigrants will remain. Kind of like overpriced footballers. You might note that the wage of the footballers in the premiership has gone up over the years, but how many of them are British ?
You ask where do I get wages go down in the short term from :- ""It is therefore quite compatible with standard economic theory for immigration to have no long run wage or employment effects.Even within such models, however, short run effects are typically to be expected as the economy adjusts, provided that the skill composition of the immigrant inflows differs from that of the resident population.""
I take that as meaning wages go down in economist speak.
Again some stuff taken out of context cus its all to big and orrable. But even this simple selection should show that the whole thing is so prone to errors and based on such flakey assumptions for the results to be meaningless. Not to mention the whole thing misses out several big things. It appears to assume that workers will be displaced by the immigrants.
It also says that there is a correlation between immigrants coming in and certain groups of workers flowing out of the country. This seams to me to be economic cleansing. Is it right to force people out of the country to allow immigrant workers in ?
Another thing it fails to take into account is the increase in the cost of living. I.e. more people competing for the same houses will push up the price of available accomodation, and will make the transport system more congested. So whilst the wages may remain the same ( and ask a builder they dont) the wage increases will be supressed and the cost of living goes up.
The whole model is assuming a completely free capitalist economy with total free movement of peoples as the market demands. This is just wrong because Britain pays more than the other Countries its just sucking them in. This model basically assumes that the workers in China will be on the same pay as the workers in the uk.
As for Section 3 market correction stuff, the whole thing is riddled with dodgy means of correction.
To correct its dodgy samples it uses ""instruments"" :- E.g. ""suppose that there exist other measured variables believed to be correlated with the true inflows and not otherwise associated with labour market outcomes.""
This appears to be a big assumption. The whole model is built on a house of flakey cards. It all appears prone to either too small a sample size or the Predictions having little relevance to the data available.
And sometimes it doesnt even have usefull instruments to correct it with ! :-
""These outflows therefore also need instrumenting and it is theoretically less clear what would serve as a suitable instrument""
And of the results it obtains it says ""Information in the Census does not allow for a breakdown across UK-born and foreign- born individuals; the information we use is thus an average, including all groups. This is a serious weakness since we cannot tell to what extent, if at all, any employment or wage effects found reflect effects on those already resident.""
""The fact that our dependent variable includes non-immigrant and immigrant unemployment is a serious shortcoming - it means, for example, that we cannot distinguish between the possibilities that immigrants themselves fail to find work and that immigration leads to unemployment among those already resident.""
The true benefit to the economy once other factors have been taken into account appears to be only 4 pence per week. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/03012007/143/benefits-migration-only-slight.html"
The anti-immigration right (AIR) do not follow the logic of their views. They claim that the UK population density is too high. But if all national barriers throughout the EU were abolished, the density of this single EU unit would be lower, yet the AIR would hate this! Also, if they wish to reduce the density of (say) South east England, they should impose controls on people movong from other parts of the country, yet they do not propose this either. And suppose the 4.5 million Brits living abroad all wanted to return, would the AIR want to stop them? No they wouldn't!
I am not a member of the AIR, being very left-wing, but I do know that the population of Britain has been declining for many years now. That is well and good. We need to promote sustainable growth, not growth for profit.
There is an argument that says: give people a chance. If birthplace is a lottery, there is a moral duty to help the less fortunate However, even if Britain lets in 1 million people a year, that only takes care of THREE DAYS' global population GROWTH, let alone the 6 billion people already on the planet. These figures also puts our concern for genocides, Filipino ferry sinkings, Avian flu in China (10 dead and counting) into perspective.... Anyone got a spare planet?
"Philippe Legrain writes: (quote)'Migrants from poor countries working in rich ones send home much more - $200bn a year officially, perhaps another $400bn informally - than the miserly $80bn western governments give in aid. These remittances go straight into local people's pockets, paying for food, clean water and medicines, enabling children to stay in school, and benefiting the local economy. Just as EU trade barriers that prevent African farmers selling the fruits of their labour in Britain are unfair, so are immigration controls that stop Africans selling their labour here'(unquote)
If migrants 'send home' $600bn a year, this huge sum Legrain quotes without any source, but let's assume he has some evidence for it if asked, is lost to Britain isn't it? Note his use of 'send home' - he does not enlarge on where 'home' might actually be but there are billions of pounds a year 'sent home' by immigrants from the Indian sub-continent. These are settlers here for three generations in many cases, but, yes, I do agree with Legrain's choice of word 'home' for the destination of this phenomenal haemorrhaging of British money. For these people, even when born here, the village in Bangladesh or the district in Pakistan that the original settler came from is still 'home' and always will be, it's where the brides and the husbands come from to join those cousins already here and where a British week's benefits can be more than two month's wages back home. The minimum wage in Bangladesh for young sweat-shop workers is about the equivalent of 10p an hour, so of course it's attractive to come to Britain if all you are interested in is getting money and sending it home. However, unless I've missed it in a previous post (and I think I've have read them all) no-one seems to have queried Legrain's contention that: 'These remittances go straight into local people's pockets, paying for food, clean water and medicines, enabling children to stay in school, and benefiting the local economy.' We know that vast sums from Britain, starting in a small way about 1960, have been flowing into the Syhlett district in Bangladesh - the place where most Bangladeshis in Britain originate. What benefits has this brought those in Syhlett who do not have relatives sending them money from abroad? It is a fact that many Syhletti owners of curry houses and taxi drivers and others involved in small businesses in Britain have used their money to build virtual palaces in their villages - houses they might use only occasionally, while those who aren't closely related will be still living in basic dwellings totally unable ever to afford the house and land prices that have been continually inflated by remittances from Britain. This is also the case in some areas of Pakistan (though here not necessarily wholly from Britain) and part of Kashmir. I use Bangladesh as my example because I have read about the affects of remittances on Syhlett and was forced to conclude that they benefit the few and impoverish the many. George Galloway has publicly stated that one of his heroes is the late President Nasser of Egypt. I recall that Nasser stripped the assets from and expelled anyone caught sending assets abroad on the grounds that it undermined the Egyptian economy - yet I'm pretty sure the Respect Party doesn't embrace Nasser's policy when most of its supporters are sending money 'home'. How many sources of clean water, how many schools, how many hospitals or clinics have remittances paid for in this altruistic third world you describe, Mr Legrain? If you don't know - and I suspect you don't - then you shouldn't make claims that $600 billion a year being lost to Britain is a worthwhile investment elsewhere."
oops sorry silly me I must be in the wrong room- I was looking for the guardian but seem to be in the daily bigot.
"_AT_Abair: ""Re economic benefits from migration, studies in Canada, the US and the Netherlands found economic benefits were only very slight, and mostly accrued to the immigrants. In the Netherlands, where the immigration profile is closer to that of the UK, the range of impact was from slightly positive to negative.
Legrain is either ignorant of or chooses to ignore the impact of illegal immigration.""
Which studies and redacted by whom Abair? Cos it all seems very nebulous and amorphous doesn't it? And please, no links to Wikipedia.
Did you actually read the author's article? Where is your evidence to suggest he ignores the impact of ""illegal immigration""? The fact he may hold a different viewpoint to yours does not make him ""ignorant"" and I would hazard a guess he (technically at least) knows about his subject more than you."
Broadly speaking there are two classes of immigrants. Skilled educated people who can make an immediate contribution to the host society e.g. medical/nursing personnel, skilled or semi-skilled tradesmen... Unskilled uneducated or poorly educated people who have nothing to immediately contribute other than cheap unskilled labour. Clearly the former, whatever their provenance, should be welcome while the latter, whatever their provenance, should be refused entry. Seems like that might be a good starting point at least.
According to the latest DNA evidence, 95% of ethnic English makeup dates back to the end of the last ice age. All that "massive" immigration up to WWII added 5%. This isn't a "pure race" argument; I'm just using that as an example of the claptrap that is the basis of multiculturalism and diversity. According to this article, we need immigration to energise us. And yet, out of so little immigration, this country dominated the entire world. Recent immigration has benefited the immigrants and the rich. For the poor, it has created the underclass. What's worse, is that most recent immigrants don't even like us. Anglophobia is rife amongst them as evidenced by the published data that, even though they are only 10% of the population, they account for over half of racist attacks. Many contributors to CIF deride our involvement in Iraq. Why bother? Thanks to immigration, we'll have the internecine warfare of Baghdad on the streets of our cities. It is hard to credit that such supposedly intelligent people subscribe to the idiocy of mass immigration as a good thing. Where in the world or history has it ever led to anything but strife?
"Steerpike 77
Silbuster The underclass are created by immigration and there was me thinking it were capitalism."
"I really enjoyed muktananda's 3:48 p.m. post. I am not at all surprised by the results in the study cited.
Of course, there would be massive xenophobia in any diverse setting. Duh. Differences in body language, social norms, linguistic subtleties...
And the poster who claimed the 95 per cent Ice Age ancestry in the UK? Sure, no doubt. And all that time since the Ice Age, we Celts have been at war with each other... why? Oh, because of differences in tribal customs, warring for land, the identification of the ""other,"" less obvious than now, but certainly seeming to be paramount back then...
Genetically, the difference between a Serb and a Macedonian is what? About the difference between a Scots and a Welshman? I remember fondly my Serbian grandmother not letting me go down to the nifty playground on 72nd Street, Gary, Indiana, USA because of those ""filthy Macedonians.""
And my Scots/Welsh uncle will not claim the Welsh blood, even though his wife, the geneologist in the family, swears the Welsh is at about 45 per cent, minimum. And under no circumstances whatsoever will my uncle acknowledge the English blood coursing through our veins. You know, those nasty imperialists and all that.
I grew up in a small town that had people from all over the world. The PARENTS were the ones at odds with each other. We kids intermingled, dated each other, hung out... no problems... but then again, we had a level playing field, equal education, time together on the soccer field, similar aspirations...
I think there is no way around the fact that we are going to have to learn to get along as a race of people. We can yakkety-yak til the cows come home about staving off immigration, comingling, and integration, yada yada yada... But, we cannot put off forever dealing with the age old problem of how to get along with each other."
"I am amazed at a couple of claims that keep cropping up here. One is around class (whatever that means nowadays) and the other is around the 'brain drain' from the UK. Let's start with the brain drain. Skilled people do not leave the UK because of immigrants. Honestly! What a horrible thing to claim. Anyway, it's completely illogical. Why would you leave your home country to live wih foreigners if you don't like foreigners. Most smart people leave the UK for the same reasons that other people come here. To pursue wider opportunities than those available at home and also because the general standard of living in many other countries is more favourable. In my own case, I prefer living in other countries (whether in the EU or now in Japan) because of the superior infrastructure, lower housing costs, better and cheaper food, efficient and flexible health care and a narrower gap between rich and poor which generally means everyone rubs along better (regardless of origin).
Britain's obsession with home ownership and sell-for-profit is a key driver of house price inflation (not immigration) and our collapsing public transport system is due to under-investment by government and an obsession with free market economics. Train services in Japan and Switzerland, both famous for their efficiency, are heavily subsidised and would never make a profit if thrown on the mercies of the free market. Smart governments know that investing in core services makes your country more competitive. Workers get to work on time and increased inward investment is generated as your country becomes an attractive place to do business.
As regards the gap between rich and poor, this is a huge factor in quality of life for all inhabitants of a country(whether 'native' or 'immigrant'). Japan has one of the narrowest gaps in the developed world and the UK one of the highest and climbing. This gap might go some way to explaining the amazing levels of inter-class resentment in the UK. Why do so many people on this thread think that only the middle-classes are happy about immigration and that this is mainly because they enjoy knocking the working classes? Nonsense. Here's the deal. I'm a consumer. I will buy products and services from whomever gives me the best deal. This includes quality as well as price.
One of the examples given above was that the so-called middle classes are happy about immigration because it means they get their driveway laid for half price. Wrong - it's because they get their driveway laid at all. If building labour rates are dropping because of increased competition from immigrant workers, as far as I'm concerned this is a good thing. Demand has outstripped supply in this area for so long, that high prices and poor service has become the norm. Now that supply is increasing, prices will drop and hopefully quality will improve. This is simple economics. It is not a direct effect of immigration per se, but the effect of more supply in one particular industry. Young British people also had the chance to get off their backsides, get a trade and take advantage of a market opportunity, but they didn't. Hence the need to bring in skilled workers from abroad. Forgive me if I don't feel sorry for British builders (who, by the way, often earn a lot more that their so-called middle-class cousins) and probably pay less tax as they are self-employed. I have yet to meet a poor builder...
As far as I am concerned, everyone in this country has the opportunity to educate themselves and gain skills which they can either use in their home country or take abroad. A little bit of competition might make us sharpen up our ideas. And by the way for all you class warriors out there, competition from foreign labour is no longer confined to so-called low skill tasks. It affects professional jobs too. We operate in a global economy and countries like Britain and Japan need to wake up to this soooner rather than later. Even in Japan, we can't find enough skilled technical staff for our needs and have brought in programmers from India and China. Without exception, they are highly educated, highly trained and highly motivated. They are polite, friendly and professional and would put the average British worker to shame. It's no wonder companies are outsouring services abroad. It's not just about cost, it's also about quality.
We should learn from this and rather than moaning and blaming others for our own predicament, we should up our game. We should encourage our children to study, work hard, learn languages, travel, broaden their outlook and become true global citizens rather than viewing ambition and competition as dirty words, whilst muttering about our lost Empire."
Another excellent post LaSerenissima, people move abroad to experience a better standard of life: witness all those Brits whooping it up on the Costa or the teachers moving to NZ (a NZ counterpart was in our school last week: when the head said "Feel free to have a chat to her about NZ lifestyle", about 15 colleagues put their hands up). I've lived abroad (Tokyo) purely for the experience, for the travel opportunities, for fun before we buy a house and are tied down with a mortgage. I used to work in a primary in North London, where there were kids of Nigerian, Malaysian, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Afro-Carribean, Irish, Spanish, East African, Japanese and Iranian origin, all in my form: all the parents worked, all cared for their kids and the kids got along brilliantly with each other. I can't help remembering those days wistfully when the Polish boy in my form gets beaten up (again) by the racist scum son of a junkie mum and I pass people saying openly in the street "I don't trust blackies, they rob stuff, don't they?".
"I have two views on this.
The first is that migrant workers can provide a great deal to the British economy, bring in new skills and labour and more importantly, do work that many people don�t wish to. Those against immigration will complain that immigrants are taking our jobs away from us, when this is just absolutely absurd, if we wanted these jobs, we�d have them and then there would be no jobs for the immigrants, there�s a reason why many immigrants will take up jobs such as street cleaners, because we won�t.
However, there needs to be a limit. �Controlled immigration� is the key here, although these workers do provide to the economy, there is a risk of over-crowding, and as someone else pointed out, immigrants will tend to group in cities which are already populous and have high-degrees of immigration, the government should attempt to spread out immigration so that various areas can benefit.
The real problem however, is illegal immigration. Those who come to the country secretly, and therefore can easily avoid such things as income tax, because they distort the numbers of immigrants in the country, in 2001 it was reported that 4.9 million Britons were born overseas, but that is what we know of."
Grecovered Laserinissima tracyk Some great posts- thanks Looks like we're back on the right page.will contribute later
"The birth rate is only 1.63 (latest figure I've seen) and the population is getting older and older.
If we don't want to forcibly inseminate young British females, or encourage lots of working immigrants, then who will pay money into the pot for the elderly to live on when we get there?? The whole of Britain will be like a day out at Eastbourne gone horribly wrong. No brass band, no fishnchips, no health care. Just starving toothless crones lying in gutters and bitter emaciated old men sleeping under bridges in their own piss.
It's a choice: Migrant workers or means-tested enforced euthanasia as an alternative for retirement."
"People are still obsessed somehow with the idea that they're significantly poorer and that house prices are significantly higher mainly because of immigrants. It's completely garbage. There is a short-term impact on wages due to immigration but it's simply not a sustained or permanent impact, mainly because immigrants move to areas with excess jobs to work rather than areas where the job market is already tight.
When it comes to house prices, social changes are far more important than immigration. 1 person households which 40 years ago were very uncommon are now the norm for a significant number of people. What's more there is huge internal migration from Scotland and the North to the South East. I live in central London and amongst my friends who live here none of them were actually born or have ever lived within the M25 until they started work. And yet people still wonder why the South East is expensive. That's not even to consider the fact we've had benign interest rates and rates of inflation over the last decade or so.
Overall everyone benefits a bit from immigration (with the immigrant benefitting a lot), and a few people lose out in the short term. It's not a good reason to end immigration and it's not a good reason to blame immigrants for every social ill they can think of."
"Squabbite, the notion that immigration is needed to adjust the age profile has been comprehensively debunked - even those who are pro-mass immigration don't advance it as an idea. Turner rubbished it in his review of pensions.
Try C D Howe institute in Canada (a very high immigration country) for confirmation. Immigrants also age (and family reunification means they may also take their aged family members with them - human rights, y'know?) and also require pensions - despite low lifetime earnings.
www.cdhowe.org/pdf/backgrounder_96.pdf
And this is assuming the immigrants who come are skilled, employable and don't go straight onto benefits - almost half of those of Pakistani, Bangladeshi or South Asian ethnicity in the UK are economically inactive (Afro-Carribeans, by contrast have much the same leve of economic activity as the English population).
Assuming current native demographics continue (and the one thing about population demographics you can count on is that they won't do what you expect - look at the recent uptick in French births) then it is estimated the population of the UK would have to rise to 120 million by 2050 to maintain the current age ratios."
"LaSerenissima says Skilled people do not leave the UK because of immigrants. Honestly! What a horrible thing to claim. Anyway, it's completely illogical. Why would you leave your home country to live wih foreigners if you don't like foreigners.
People move abroad because they want a taste of a different culture, economic tourists you might say or because they want to be part of a country with similar values and culture and which values their values and doesnt want to see them thrown away.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/rdsolr0603.pdf
From this exciting report it says
""Out-migration of existing residents as a response to economic effects of immigration may again compromise the accuracy of the estimated impact of immigration""
What this is effect saying that the open borders country model of the economy with no limit on immigration is forcing people out of the country.
You then go on to say "" I prefer living in other countries (whether in the EU or now in Japan) because of the superior infrastructure, lower housing costs, better and cheaper food, efficient and flexible health care and a narrower gap between rich and poor which generally means everyone rubs along better (regardless of origin)."" So you prefer to live where houses are cheaper where its more affordable.
You are a victim of economic cleansing and you dont even realize it. You are the case against your own arguement !"
smurfy - when the best you can offer when I point out your mistakes is "Oh get over yourself..." and later "What's with the rhetorical victimhood?", there's clearly only a limited point in attempting ratiocination. I leave you therefore with this sensible remark from someone else on the board - "Evan Davies, the BBC's economics editor, had it right when he said that immigration means there are winners and losers, and until people like Legrain acknowledge this, I'll refuse to take anything they say seriously."
La Serenissima, oh most calm and peaceful. Yours was a nice and humanist post. But just a few thoughts on it: the British working class who go abroad seldom integrate with the natives if they settle in France and Spain, or go to Anglophone countries. So they might still dislike foreigners. My father lives in Spain. He doesn't speak a word of Spanish. (I commute to Brussels by the way and am a fully paid up cosmopolitan) The Middle Classes like foreigners in cool food, nice boutique hotel sort of way. "Oh, is this drink called caipirinha. So tell me more about the politics of Brazil, fellow lawyer" sort of way. The pessimist in me though is sceptical. You possess in Japan in the inestimable advantage of speaking English, and so are beyond competition, or rather possesss an enormous competitive advantage. A middle class English person has won the gold ticket in the globalisation stakes: of course you are prepared to sacrifice the quid pro quo, which is to low skill immigrants into the UK. Isn't this a kind of class warfare? Where is your loyalty to Britain? Maybe "anti immigrationism" is the new socialism. I would hate to be chained to this country myself by the way: in England of the 1970s where exchange controls and national barriers prevented the middle classes from escaping the tyranny of the unions and a cuisine whose emblem was Little Chef all day breakfasts. And there are not many foreigners in Japan, and the few come, especially if they are white, are probably treated very well. Especially if you come from the land of Beckham, Beatles and Harrods. Male friends who have lived in Japan say they have never spent a night alone or sober. Is it the same for women? Could your point about Japan's success depending in part on its homogeneity and its low wage differences not apply mutatis mutandis to the UK? The UK seems to have lost a lot of sense of community that even France possesses. Immigration is only a part cause. The result though is drugs abuse, violence, hoodies...etc
"_AT_ squabblite - don't be so ridiculous. The ""ageing population time-bomb"" is yet another silly media scare, fuelled by politicians who like to see pension funds as a supplement to the Exchequer.
There *may* be a problem catering to the needs of the elderly Baby Boom generation, but it will be temporary because they will simply start to die off as they hit their 70s. The problem will diminish and disappear within a decade or two, and even for that period it will be a diminishing problem.
The idea that either a country's population must continually expand or else the country will collapse is nonsense."
"Very good article and I agree wholeheartly. Anyone with half a brain and without a populist political agenda would agree too.
Bear in mind, the case of ""Immigration is a threat to people of Britain"" is usually a populist scandal driven subject that would be typical of tabloid newspapers... Yes, the ones with the girl that shows her t*ts out on the third page and talk about celebrity drunken antics. Can we expect such publications to sensibly discuss the influence of immigration in the UK economy? mmm...
I'll stick to the Financial Times, thank you very much!"
Plastic Gypsies...this is the problem of coming late to the debate. If you had read all the threads you probnably wouldn't be boasting that you read the Financial Times, the newspaper of those who hold the golden ticket. The truth, not everyone who is sceptical against immigration is a knucklehead. There have been sensible arguments both for an against immigration from sensible people. It's a much more complex issue than the article, written by a WTO flack, suggests.
When the the anti-immigration ranters are reduced to gibbering about us all being "a victim of economic cleansing" (DaleyThompson) you just know the very last of the straws has been clutched!
"Muktanda
Why is this a complex issue? I do manual work . I go to work everyday . Each day the number of other people doing my type of increases. I can't help noticing this. My wages get depressed whilst inflation increases.
Shall I sell my house, put my kids in second hand clothes , and retrain as what: a computer something or other fixer?
Tell me: would I not be better off seeking out networks of like minded individuals and doing my existing job with them. Also why would you find it strange I would like to prevent immigration and actually want to gradually reduce the numbers of brought in labour?"
"Interesting letter in today's Graun -
""Phillippe Legrain (Comment, January 15) fails to mention that many migrants are prepared to work for lower wages than UK residents. They may ""fill vital gaps in the labour market"", but these exist because employers refuse to pay adequate wages. Mr Legrain is also silent on the effect on housing, of which there is a limited stock. As a lecturer of 35 years at the local college in Brent, I see the impact of migration on the worst-off in our society. What are the chances of a school leaver being taken on and trained as an electrician or carpenter when an employer can easily find someone from Poland, fully trained, who will work for meagre wages? Free movement of labour is just a euphemism for cheap labour.""
The author? John Bull? Joe Bloggs? White Van Man?
Er, no. One Fawzi Ibrahim."
Nabanab...good to see you have taken time off your manual work to surf the web and blog the Guardian. You should my previous posts. I didn't question why you, given your job, would be against immigration. Just as people below Heathrow's flightpath are against a new runway built for the greater good. But you are up against those who find immigration beneficial. It's politics mate.
"Gumbo says :- ""People are still obsessed somehow with the idea that they're significantly poorer and that house prices are significantly higher mainly because of immigrants. It's completely garbage. ""
If there were 3 million less immigrants here tomorrow do you think house prices would still be so high, I think they might adjust to more sensible levels. Its too much demand in the market place that keeps pushing house prices ever higher.
You go on to say
""There is a short-term impact on wages due to immigration but it's simply not a sustained or permanent impact, mainly because immigrants move to areas with excess jobs to work rather than areas where the job market is already tight.""
Basically when migrants come in to an area they are willing to undercut the existing wages.
The report talks of short term wage ""shocks"" but not much long term unemployment or wage differences. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/rdsolr0603.pdf ""Out-migration of existing residents as a response to economic effects of immigration may again compromise the accuracy of the estimated impact of immigration""
Then after people have out migrated due to economic effects a few years down the line they are able to demand more for the wages, hence no lowering of long term wages. (Though this doesnt appear to take long term mass immigration into account).
Thats why there is no long term wage difference. The migrants are more economically competitive than the home grown workers. They are willing to work longer hours for less money and live in lower standard accomodation etc. Survival of the fittest. Where I work the south africans there work 80 hours a week and live 7 to a house. I dont want to try to compete with that. Why should I be forced to ? If I was just competeing against other English workers I wouldnt need to.
Its the pressure thats created by inflows of people thats forcing people out."
""" Rained off "" as we say Mucktanada. Never been one to sit in a pub.
I'm enjoying debating.."
"""is lost to Britain isn't it? Note his use of 'send home' - he does not enlarge on where 'home' might actually be but there are billions of pounds a year 'sent home' by immigrants from the Indian sub-continent. These are settlers here for three generations in many cases, but, yes, I do agree with Legrain's choice of word 'home' for the destination of this phenomenal haemorrhaging of British money.""
Immigrants just can't win according to you. If they send money to their families to pay for school fees, healthcare and put food in the table, you term it as economic loss to the UK. I'm astounded by some of the selfish and inhumane arguments put by you. Have you ever thought that these immigrants also pay tax? It's their money and they are free to do what they want with it."
"DaleyThompson - Supply and demand has only a negligible effect on UK house prices!!!!
It's cheap credit. Cheap credit and the printing press."
"Oh dear, well considering Muktananda's rather personal response to my post, I feel obliged to reply:
""the British working class who go abroad seldom integrate with the natives if they settle in France and Spain"" Exactly! And why pick on the working classes here. I know plenty 'middle-class' professionals who have lived for years in other countries and pride themselves on the fact that they don't speak a word of the language, so before we throw unsubstantiated comments around about people who come to Britain and don't speak English and don't integrate, let's take a moment to think about our own behaviour abroad.
""A middle class English person has won the gold ticket in the globalisation stakes"". Well I'm not English for starters. I'm Scottish and I'm only 'middle class' (whatever that means, I still don't understand these definitions) due to the benefits of a Scottish comprehensive education (free for all) which I chose to take advantage of and the benefits of a traditional Scottish upbringing which taught me that if you want something, you should work for it. I resent the implication that somehow the life I enjoy now was handed to me on plate because I'm 'middle class'. Not only is this inaccurate, but it is precisely this sort of class-based sniping which brings our country down. We should be encouraging our children to pursue their dreams and ambitions and set an example for them of what can be achieved when you put your mind to it, not perpetuating lazy assumptions about others based on envy and sterotyping.
""of course you are prepared to sacrifice the quid pro quo, which is to low skill immigrants into the UK"" I fail to see the connection between me leaving my country and other people arriving.
As for my ""loyalty to Britain"", well, I'm not sure what the required expression of loyalty is, but if it helps, I still pay tax in Britain and I still own a home there. Just to reiterate, I did not leave Britain because I couldn't get a job or couldn't afford a home there, I left because I found the inverse snobbery, lack of ambition and mono-culturalism stifling. It is no coincidence that many Scots (for several generations now) thrive in other countries more than at home. Once the deadening veil of class obsession and insularity is lifted, people realise there's a whole big world out there, full of opportunities. It's quite energising, I would recommend it.
As for the statement that immigration leads to ""drug abuse, violence, hoodies"", not only is that a shockingly sweeping and racist assertion, I can assure you that we have had such problems in Scotland for years, all homegrown in our own fine soil. Immigration to Scotland is extremely low (even if it increasing now, this is very recent i.e within the 1-2 years) so how do you explain such phenomena in Scotland's homogenous society? The fact that we have lost much of our sense of community, respect for ourselves and others and sense of pride in our work and our nation must be due to other factors.
I would be interested to hear others' non-immigration related theories on contemporary Britain as I get the feeling, both in this thread and from talking to people when I go home, that we all feel that something in our country is now lacking (in terms of values, infrastructure etc). It would be helpful to examine the many possible reasons for this rather than just blaming immigration. It's always easier to look outward than inward."
"Hello Muktanda, Thanks for the answer; True, I haven't read all the posts; i went through quite a few though and I'm aware of both sides arguments and their relative validity and stance. Furthermore, I'm pleased to see that you take comfort in stereotypes but reading the Financial Times doesn't necessarly mean you're a city slicker on a 6-figure package; i agree that there is some sort of statistical demographic truth leading to readers stereotypes; taking it for granted is both simplistic and against the values this country has strived for: education for all.
I'm as well aware of the ""complex issues"" regarding immigration and wage structures but I'm increasingly disheartened since everyone who has an opinion fails to see the other side of the spectrum.
Globalisation created the third world. ( it's just the new word for imperialism - just take off the political aspect of it and keep the economic one, safe in your knowledge that the invisible economic monster will still pull the strings of the political sphere in case you're still wondering about the Iraq war...) Immigration is the price to pay for having benefited from the cheap local workforce that western developped countries( former empires ) were looking for in order to fuel the economy and making it more ""competitive"" so that a vast majority people from this country or other western countries could afford goods they couldn't before... So, yes, I'm tired of hearing the anti-immigration rants particularly when people/consumers are happy to look for the cheapest clothing, food and other goods and looking for the best financial return rates when it comes to saving their little monies for a rainy day.
I would be interested to know how they are not directly responsible for the current economic situation: High competitive pressure on wages and high competitive pressure on retun on investment. Off course someone is gonna be squeezed in middle and off course immigration is going to happen because we're all humans and we will always strive for a better life for ourselves and for our loved ones. It doesn't matter where you are from or what you believe in; we can safely say we are the same.
So when it comes to immigration, people should as well remember that immigration is a sign of a healthy economy/country. Who wants to move were it's going to be worse? No one. Why would you chose to move in a specific country if the country you want to move in had no influence whatsoever in the country you are originally from?
Britain had the biggest trade influence in the world over a century, creating the ""commonwealth"", ruling the seas and trade and you expect that no native would dream of a new life the ""mother"" land? And what about ""sending money back home"" which seems to infuriate a few bloggers here; If poverty was already exported there wouldn't be any need for sending money back home... sending back money that major corporations have been saving thanks to the third world low cost structures!
So yes, However way I look at it, immigration is justified, immigration the result of success, immigration is the self realisation of the global world we created. More importantly, immigration is people and people are what matters most so they deserve respect.
The who system is responsible for the situation, to tackle it, you need to dismantle the whole system, scrap Globalisation and move on to a new economic system that would be more adapted to the current geopolitic situation and probably geared to deal with future major issues such as global warming that requires unilateral attention. But then we're getting into fantasy.. even if it really proves to be necessary. peace*"
All this is becoming rather too personal. Where have all the economists with their home office briefings gone? Le Serenessima - the problem is, even addressing you by your pseudonym becomes a kind of unintentional flirtation. Have you tried another screen name, like Hellodarling. My phone number is 020 8555 5555 Scotland had violence, social problems etc galore without immigrants. But don't you agree that immigration reduces a sense of community. (For better or worse, as I prefer having an Iranian banker living below me than Mrs and Mrs Potter from the local shop) And that Scotland has a greater sense of community than England?
"For those getting excited about the author supposedly disguising the fact that there are downsides to mass immigration:
Yes maybe he should be clear but that doesn't mean that his argument is any less valid.
ANY Economic change will create winners and losers, as will supression of such change.
What matters (IMO) is that the overall change is positive, which in this case it clearly is (free-markets always deliver better solutions unless there are good reasons for control)."
"Negative response to Immigration has more to do with loss of British Identity and Culture due to the supposedly liberal (but in truth just 'anti-bourgeois' middle class guardianista type foolery - how sad to hate themselves!!) Media and it's floundering attempts to subjugate native british culture to a lowest common denominator culture where foreign cultures can never cause offence and british culture is always under scrutiny.
However, the economic benefits are pretty minimal, leaving only the economic risks associated with larger population size."
"""It's true that less than 10% of the British population was born abroad""
Yes. And look at how the Government is bending over foreward to please THEM. With their banning of crosses that may be offensive to immigrants, or banning christmas for the same reason.
Their effect WAY out ways their number. As to jobs.
The Government is very fond of quoting that East Europeans are filling gaps in the labour market. Really? It is five years since the Government first said that we need immigration to fill 600,000 vacancies in the labour market. Since then, three quarters of a million immigrants have arrived in U.K. Yet vacancies are still at 600,000.
More than half a million east Europeans have come to Britain since May 2004. This figure, a rate of almost 590 a day, does not include the self-employed, children or partners, or non E.U immigration. So the actual number is closer to 700,000, or one in every 85 people living in the U.K. As well as placing unprecedented pressure on schools, hospitals and roads, the migrants are costing the taxpayer up to �60million in benefits. According to the Home Office, 55,000 are now in receipt of benefits such as tax credits, child benefit and council housing. The number claiming state support has risen by almost 30 per cent in the past three months.
Most of those that ARE working, are in those low paid jobs that the British are not supossed to want to do. Therefore they are below the tax thresh-hold. Because they are willing to work for peanuts, the wages of U.K workers are being driven down, therefore the Government gets less tax again. Most of the unwanted immigrants send a great proportion of their money back home. So they are not consumers.
Now would one of you bleeding heart liberals care to tell me just what benfits the U.K is gaining from the flood of unwanted immigrants?"
"_AT_vonScharnast and others that question what benefits occur:
Immigration can help by: -Cultural diversity & Education(think about Bangladeshi Curry houses, and Irish pubs, and Thai restaurants, and Polish supermarkets, and acupuncture and different views and beliefs and better understanding of the world and tolerance of cultures around us) -Skilled resources (getting working age productive members of society without spending anything to train, educate or support them) -Stimulating demand (these people spend money here too, they don't just earn it) -Free markets (almost always more efficient than non-free markets)
These are just those that I thought of right now, there are others that have been raised in the comments above. I realise there are (apparent and actual) downsides to immigration too, and these can affect some groups more than others, but please don't just put the blinkers on and believe that it is ALL bad. I would opine that in the short term it takes a little while for society to adapt, however in the long-run things tend to get better for all.
To put it into context, I am an immigrant son of immigrants. My parents are Dutch and emigrated to New Zealand where I was raised and educated. I then emigrated to the UK. -Every single Kiwi and Aussie I know that lives here (quite literally 100's of them) has a job and pays taxes. Every one. And they tend to fill gaps in teaching/nursing etc where there really is a shortage. -New Zealand benefitted hugely from the young emigrants from Britain, Holland etc during the 60's and 70's. They helped shape our identity and provided us with valuable human resource that was immediately productive. -New Zealand is now NEGATIVELY affected by young people LEAVING the country (the brain drain) to come over to the UK and work.
_AT_vonScharnast - You also said that unemployment has hardly changed (from 600,000 5 years ago, to 600,000 today). Surely that means the UK has absorbed the immigrants, and that they appear to be all working! And it also means the unemployment rate has gone down (the same number of unemployed, as a proportion of a larger pool).
_AT_vonScharnast - And finally, the supposed banning of religious crosses (wasn't that British Airways, not the government) and Christmas (who exactly is banning this?) are not really anything to do with immigration. Plenty of British are no longer Christian too (just look at the CiF religious posts)? Individuals can have their own religion, but please don't force it on the masses, whether people are British or not.
Immigration may have good points and bad points (I believe it is good on average for society, especially in the long term), but ignorance and intolerance surely are always negative!"
"BewareoftheLeopard, I can only imagine how pleased the Maori must have been to see European cultural diversity, education, skilled resources, new demands and free markets land on their beaches.
;-)
I bet they still haven't recovered from that pleasant surprise!"
Seeing as we in the UK are already fantastically prosperous in economic terms, why do we need to import yet more human beings in order that we can have more �economic success�, particularly given that we have 2.7 million scroungers living on Incapacity Benefit because they don�t fancy working? I would give all work-refusing Brits 3 job offers, and after 3 job refusals, they would be shot and turned into fertiliser for use in propagating new forests. And why are the proponents of mass immigration so aggressively anthropocentric? The skylark population of Britain has plummeted to only a third of what it was 30 years ago. There are less than 2 million skylarks, and already 60 million human beings in the UK. Give me a good reason why human beings are more important than skylarks. We should be grateful that the human population, (minus immigrants), of the UK is declining. Would that the population of the world was declining. Now that would be good news. There are far, far too many human beings both in Britain and the world.
The night I got mugged it wasn't by immigrants.
It's not just the number of immigrants who pose a threat to British life! The problem is that some of them are concentrated in particular areas of the country forming a kind of ghetto with their own dresscode etc.; some of them do not want to adjust to our lifestyle and values; some of them do not even want to learn the language of this country.
"Dear Muktananda
Bless your cotton socks! This is a serious blog about a serious issue. Shouldn't you be on match.com?
It's funny, you know, because whenever guys start having a go at me and getting personal instead of focusing on the debate at hand, it's always because they have a crush on me. This is the first time it's happened on the internet though! Your post put a smile on my face this morning (it's early in Tokyo)
Anyway, I do not agree that immigration reduces a sense of community. Community is what you make it. My granny in Glasgow has had Pakistani, Polish and Irish neighbours since the 1960s and they have all been lovely, have kept an eye out for her, brought round lovely homecooked food etc. I don't know that Scotland has a greater sense of community than England as I have only ever lived in London which is not necessarily representative of the wider nation. I'm quite sure there are places in England where people get along with their neighbours and still have a sense of community (however you define that).
One of the things I love most about living in other countries is that I meet people from lots of other countries too, not just the host country. Everywhere I've ever lived, I've found my own community of colleagues, neighbours, local shopkeepers etc and in my experience, people who have arrived from abroad are often more open and keener to make friends and contribute to their local environment because they have to look outwards to establish a social network.
I think the earlier post from Tracyk was very telling. The bigger the mix of people, the better everyone gets along. Friends of mine raised in Belgium went to school with a big mix of nationalities and, generally speaking, the kids all get along fine unless they are being raised by parents who specifically educate them in racism and anti-semitism (which does happen unfortunately). As an example, one friend of mine there is second generation Spanish, and along with speaking Dutch, English, German, French and Spanish, also speaks Arabic which he learned on the street from playing football with local Moroccan kids and is now dating a Polish girl.
Personally, I think that's great. It's what the 21st century is going to be all about. The more we understand each other, the less room there is for prejudice. It's hard to hate people you grew up playing football with and whose children you are now a godfather to."
"I love kohlrabi! Luckily I grow it every year. We make a slaw with grated carrots, small bits of red pepper, bits of parsley, oil and rice vinegar and some roasted (no salt) pumpkin seeds on top at the end.
Good in veggie soups as well, but best raw."
I was given some kohlrabi seeds so am growing it for the first time this year and looking forward to harvesting my first crop. Your slaw sounds delicious.
Does it cause as much flatulence as cabbage?
No! Hurrah! It's even suitable for those of us who've been put on a FODMAP diet.
These are great just peeled and sliced add some salt ,great for dips such as houmous ,very refreshing find them in greek /turkish grocers aswell.
My current favourite use for Kohrabi: Peel and cut across, rather than top to bottom, so you get nice round slices. Peel an orange and also cut into slices across the segments. Lay a circle of orange each on a circle of kohlrabi. Dryroast some sesame and sprinkle over. Serve slightly chilled. Delish.
Kohlrabi is my favourite vegetable. It's divine.
I can quite happily peel a kohlrabi and munch on it... until it's devoured. Very easy to grow veg too.
That's how I like it best as well!
"Just had a raw kohlrabi salad from Jersalem cookbook. Oh god was it vile and smell urrrrrh.
Will try it cooked and stuffed."
Perhaps you just don't like it, or there was something wrong with your kohlrabi. I made the same salad a while ago and thought it was lovely. I also tend to be fairly fussy with veg.
Sometimes old or overripe kohlrabi is not nice. When it turns all spongy and woody and just dry, the flavour isn't very sweet anymore, either.
"The reason they brand any talk on immigration ""racist"" is because they're hamstrung between public opinion, international legal obligations and economic imperatives. They can't become ""anti-immigration"" because it's not economically feasible, but they can't be seen to say so. Hence a mixture of slinging around the old ""racist"" mud and dog-whistle anti-immigrant rhetoric.
In my opinion, it'd be nice if there was some sort of link between open borders for finance and goods, and open borders for those who produce that wealth."
If you vote for the BNP you are endorsing racism, regardless of any other considerations.
Should read, it is unsurprising that MacShane's call for a non-toxic immigration debate should be laced with innuendo and slurs. I'm not sure I agree with what you say, Mr Green, but anyone familiar with Denis's style and level of debate should recognise this pattern of behaviour. Anyone who saw his risible temper tantrum on Newsnight back in October, too.
Perhaps but if no other party will talk about peoples real concerns on immigration just wtf do you expect?
"I know this means lowering my self to mention The Sun, but maybe Dennis McShane should have a look at the poll published in that paper today.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2911175/Suns-massive-poll-highlights-voters-anger-over-immigration.html
However, don't worry Mr Green. I am more inclined to believe your facts & figures that anything spouted by a Labour MP, especially Dennis McShane."
"thfc123

For you to vote for a party that addresses peoples concerns but isn't racist."
"Zounds,

It's a nice thought, but does it not automatically beg the question of wealth production only being done by foreign labourers? I think it'll take more than that BBC documentary The Day The Immigrants Left to convince people that jobs and productivity cannot be fulfilled by the current population. We've seen that immigrants are necessary for wealth creation, but not really why this is so."
Abstention. Voting for racists is never acceptable.
"zounds
There is no economic imperative for mass immigration. None at all. Small numbers of highly skilled workers that are unavailable in the UK are required, labourers for building sites, trainee chefs and barmen are not.
Have a look at Japan, seond largest economy on the planet."
You come out with all this stuff about how MacShane is wrong but you don't actually say why immigration is bad.
And increasingly reliant on imported Thai labour for menial jobs that Japanese people are no longer willing to do.
This country has plenty of money and resources. They are just in the pockets and power of people who refuse to share them with others - the rich do not care where the poor originated from, they just aren't "their sort" of people and they won't do anything to help them. The only thing that makes them nervous is the thought of their quiet, comfortable lifestyles being upset by riots in the inner cities as the needy battle one another in a misguided belief that this will get them what they want. It won't. Only a radical change in the economic structure of this country will get them that. To deter that, Green and his lot will whip up racism and call it "concern over immigration" with the straightest of respectable, high Tory faces.
It's just a pity that you're unlikely to hear any mainstream politician ever admit this.
"How can this be the case? We have millions of economically inactive people in Britiain right now. They aren't contributing to the economy and many of them are taking money in unemployment benefits. How exactly are immigrants at this point economally beneficial?
Immigration is only economically beneficial when there is a shortage of workers, and this at the moment is simply not the case."
"Rubbish. It is that kind of absolutist claptrap that stifles the immigration debate.
Abstention leads to the status quo, where all three main parties agree. (against the wishes of the large majority) Perhaps you need to have a little think as to the complete contempt people must feel for the main parties that they are prepared to hold their nose and vote BNP."
"I like the way the Sun have illustrated their story with a photo of Devon on a rainy day.
(the woman in the pink coat looks like she's about to thump someone!)"
A racist holding his nose is still a racist.
Figures and sources please.
"zounds
""They can't become ""anti-immigration"" because it's not economically feasible, but they can't be seen to say so.""
The countries of East Asia (Japan, Korea, China) are all anti-immigration in that sense. It's not obvious to them that they're missing out on growth by failing to copy UK immigration policies. They think we're conducting a massive, high-risk social experiment with our population. They'll wait to see how it turns out for us before they imitate it."
"The trope that ""Britain is overcrowded"" and has not enough land to be self-sufficient in food is false. Britain has about 1000 square metres of arable land per person, more than enough to sustain twice its current population--on a largely vegetarian diet, even before considering the use of grassy uplands for sheep and goat farming.
Much of the grain currently produced on it is fed to animals for meat and dairy production, which is a highly inefficient way to use these calories: about a ten-fold loss.
The agricultural fundament of the UK is strong, it is just its culture is broken: the historical injustices of loss of small farms, the overdependence on fossil fuels and artificial pesticides and fertilisers to produce flavourless crap for the supermarket monopolies, for undiscerning consumers who are completely alienated from nature.
Those who sow fear and doubt in the opposite direction use their lies to justify their racism and lack of commitment to social justice. Much easier to blame foreigners than address the historical injustices in Britain's history."
"But voting for liars, cheats, tax evaders, fraudsters and adulterers is?
Criticise the BNP and it's voters all you like, but they have brought the immigration debate to the fore and, whether you like it or not, they are attracting the votes of about one million people.
The premise of this article is to have a non-hysterical debate about immigration. By association you are calling all those who vote for the BNP racist. This is certainly hysterical and, gladly, is a word that is fast loosing it's stigma in stifling debate."
"I don't see that this article has refuted MacShane's points, but rather it's the next step - MacShane was saying we should be talking about immigration calmly, and this article seems to do just that.
It's pretty clear that some sort of cap, or stricter points system, will be introduced for non EU migrants after the next election. Therefore the alarmist tendency (that this article shows) of projecting current trends into the future and estimating how swamped we'll be in 2060 is not condusive to reasonable debate.
As for the BNP, they're a non-issue. Their slight gain in the Euro elections was a blip, and they have rightly gone back to being a marginal non-entity."
Eminently sensible as ever Andrew, but be prepared for the shrill bleatings and smears of the self-righteous utopians on this thread.
"Zounds
""They can't become ""anti-immigration"" because it's not economically feasible, but they can't be seen to say so. ""
That isn't clear to me. It's obviously not true, especially in a recession, that all immigration is per se economically beneficial. Purely economically, the sensible thing to do would be to pick and choose between immigrants carefully, accepting only the better qualified in areas of established need. Politically and administratively, though, this is very difficult.
I hate the Daily Mail sort of line on immigrants - let alone the BNP - but one reason why Nu-Lab must go is that it has so nailed its colours to the mast of mass immigration as an unqualified good (partly - I fear, for the dubious ideological reason of trying to bully the British working class and impose its own elitist ""progressivist"" ideals), that it is quite unable to extricate itself...I don't think it even wants to...
."
"Congratulations for proving Mr Greens article correct within the space of just a few minutes.
Your woeful sixth form level of debate and smearing does not work anymore, in case you had not noticed the BNP have plenty of councillors, two MEPs and a London Assembly member. They are now even threatening to get an MP. Well done congratulations a real achievement for Labour.
By all means carry on with your ""they are all racist"" claptrap, whilst ignoring the reasons why and the BNP will continue to grow in support."
Given how many kids our current crop of political leaders are having, I do not expect them to show any leadership on issues affecting population. The 80% of us who "feel concerned" about it, will have to spend the next five years continuing to feel concerned, without anything actually getting done.
"thfc123

Well for the Windrush generation there was. But that's not the point I was addressing- rather the extraction of profit from the labour of workers in poverty-stricken countries whilst border and immigration is tightened up. Neo-liberal economics are driven by cheap 'bodies' being forced to languish in poverty.
Addressing the liberalisation of the transfer of capital and assets across international borders, and free trade agreements, would be a start in addressing why those countries are poverty stricken in the first place. Profit from surplus should be returned to those who produce the wealth, not shipped to the UK whilst the workers continue to have their labour exploited.

The slightest bit of research into the roots of the BNP reveals their impeccable neo-nazi heritage. As a party they exploit concerns about immigration to further a racist agenda. If you want people to take you seriously when you say 'immigration isn't a race issue' (which you're right about) then you can't then pal around with racists, to coin a phrase.
There's a difference between being anti-immigration and being racist, and the BNP is racist."
"It is all about globalisation and inequality. You want capital to be free of limits so that it can move where labour is cheap, but you don't want labour from such places to move where labour is better paid.
If you don't want economic migrants then support increased aid to the third world and also insist that first world companies that invest in the third world pay first world salaries."
"Voting for neo-Nazis is never acceptable. If you can't vote for the main parties maybe UKIP is just about OK but the BNP is the party we fought to defend this country against in 1939-45. It is a vile party with an ugly ideology and all right thinking people should shun it
Start your own party , vote for almost anyone but stay away from these evil people"
Well considering that migrants will only travel to places where there are jobs and opportunities I don't think the UK is in any danger of being flooded by immigrants over the next few decades...
Nope, I'm saying that if you vote for a party whose ideology is predicated on the notion of racial hierarchies, and whose leader has broken bread with the Ku Klux Klan, you are endorsing racism. And yes, I do believe that voting for a party which is programmatically racist is worse than voting for parties which have put up individual candidates who have been guilty of fraud and incompetence, but who do not have fraud and incompetence written into their charter.
"\
Which one is that then?
UKIP, a single issue party?"
Numbers showing that sort of discrepancy really needs a source to back them up. Otherwise 'immigration debates' are no more than a series of name calling and made up numbers.
"A bit O/T but...
The fact that any discussion of immigration is in great danger of being immediately branded 'racist' does a lot to explain the continuing existence of the racist right in the western political environment.
For decades, the political mainstream has refused to engage in any sense with that proportion of the public that holds racist views. Note that I say 'engage' - not condone, not agree with, and not even tolerate - but simply to engage. Instead, these people are told that their views are beneath contempt and do not deserve and place in any reasonable argument. That's probably true - but not to the people who hold these views. They see themselves as excluded from debate, so of course they turn to parties like the BNP who reinforce their prejudice.
My point is that we can't end the rise of the racist right (and tell me it isn't rising..) by refusing to engage with them and telling them they're wrong, because they don't think they are. In their world they're right, and we're wilfully blind. That may not be true, but it's true to them. I'm emphatically not suggesting that we say 'you're right', but perhaps we should say 'You think you're right, but I think you're wrong and here's why...'. It's harder to do that; it takes much more effort and much more maturity in the political system (perhaps more than we've got)... but we might just change a few minds in the process.
Instead, we don't even say 'you're wrong'. We say 'you are contemptible and I won't speak to you'. In doing so we don't challenge the racism, we just drive it into dark corners to fester."
"Benulek
29 Mar 2010, 11:09AM

I don't actually think that is true. There must be plenty of people that are not really racist that vote for the BNP. The BNP is avowedly racist but it works pretty much like the hard left does. If you have a strike, say, up pop the SWP to act is solidarity with the strikers and follow their mission to ""point out the lessons to be learned from the dispute.
That's all the BNP does. Whether the issue is housing or jobs or not being able to get a doctor's appointment, or having oversubscribed schools where English is not the first langauage of most of the kids. And up pop the BNP to show solidarity and help people learn the lessons.
The failure is that the main parties are scared witless of the charge of racism so any discussion about the real effect of immigration on real people is quickly buried in a morass of platitudes. And that is when the BNP step in to talk about these issues and to carefully listen for the opportunity to make the connections that they think are important.
Calling all BNP voters racist is like saying all strikers that have the odd SWP banner on their picket line are all Trotskyists. It's daft."
"""""Britain is overcrowded"" and has not enough land to be self-sufficient in food is false. ""
True, but its towns and cities are overcrowded for the public infrastructure and services to cope, and already low paid jobs have become lower paid.
That's the logic of the free market operating under the flag of convenience known as ""diversity"". In opposing the capitalist aim of flooding the labour market with lowest possible wages, you get labelled 'racist'. Quite ingenious really, no wonder the Tories are dumbfounded and awed by Labour's tactics.
Only the poor get fucked. And who cares about them ?"
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"george
""The countries of East Asia (Japan, Korea, China) are all anti-immigration in that sense. It's not obvious to them that they're missing out on growth by failing to copy UK immigration policies.""
Don't know enough about Japan or Korea but China?
That's the country where girl babies can be drowned in buckets, no? Where millions of young men are about to discover their chances of having a wife are zero? Where's there is massive internal migration and at the very least an equivalent to the entire population of the UK will experience living in hellish conditions - possibly, much, much more, And where any kind of future recession could mean disaster for millions trapped in cities with no jobs...
It's not a paradise or utopia, then.
and it does have ""third world"" immigrants, of course.
http://www.utne.com/Politics/Immigration-Raids-in-Chinas-Little-Africa.aspx"
"Did anyone see Dave on the Politics Show yesterday?
David Cameron interview by audience, part1/4 (28Mar10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm2N5EdlkZA
(The other three parts should autoplay)"
"JuliusBreezer - Sorry, but why should the majority of people in this country have to live in an even more crowded Island when they do not wish to do so.
Britain is one of the most densely populated countries in the planet - England, which bears the brunt of most immigration is particularly densely populated.
The only argument I have ever heard for a no-borders policy tends to come from the soft left who prioritise the expiation of post-colonial guilt way above the negative impact on community cohesion, schools, hospitals and public services."
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"Hmm!
Extrapolating figures in this manner is all jolly good fun but you do know that it can't continute at that rate and won't, right? As much as I hate to take issue with anyone who is arguing against Denis MacShane, that's not a very good start to the article."
"zounds
The BNP are racist? Wow, who knew.......everyone.
Newsflash, they are racist, it is well known and more people are voting for them depsite this. All this high and mighty rhetoric means bugger all to people who are voting BNP.
Either grow up and tackle the issue or be prepared to have more and more BNP elected politicians."
other policies, obviously. Edit function....
"BB
The point of my comment is that the Big 3 parties refuse to have this sensible debate on immigration. Whatever the BNP's image is as far as being racist, the Big 3 parties also have their more than fair share of bad points.
If and when I put that cross next to a BNP candidate in an election, I am aware of the racist smear. But I cannot abstain from a vote and hold my nose up at the stenche of tax dodging by Lord Ashcroft, the dodgy mortgage dealings of Lord Mandleson and the EU referendum flip by the Lib Dems. Amongst many other transgressions.
Whatever the BNP' faults they are forcing the immigration issue to be discussed. Discuss it rationally, act on the public's wishes (if he opinion polls are to be believed) and the BNP will vanish.
What is so difficult in that?"
"All the 'listening' in Government and they haven't heard a the uproar in the towns and cities about overcrowding, services overstretched, and lack of employment?
Now there is an election coming up they suddenly realise we are bursting at the seams???
We need to put the people already legally here (white/black/brown) first, if we all sink together no one will benefit.
Concentrate on closing the boarders for a time and deport any illegals that have come here and ignored the system, criminals from abroad, deport when convicted.
This country has become a hell hole and the only UKIP or BNP is willing to address the problem. Is it any wonder people are planing to vote for them"
"It?s all very nice Sir Andrew, but I can?t for the life of me work out what your point is other than to flag up that you are not a Labour politician and to position yourelf in opposition to the diversity industry.
You very correctly say, ?The real complaint is that politicians are failing to take effective action.? That may be true, but what do you go on to suggest? Not, as far as I can tell very much in this article.
You also correctly point out that ?East European? (by which I assume you mean EU member state citizens from A8 and A2 countries) and Asylum are overstated issues and then say that the biggest pressures are from the third world. I don?t disagree with any of this but what I don?t see is an actual suggestion.
Do you restrict marriages? I note incidentally Sir Andrew that MigrationWatch?s research very sensibly suggests not going back to the Primary Purpose Rule ? this can only be applauded. Do you close off immigration from particular countries regardless of circumstance? Do you close down the points-based system for skilled people wholesale? There is a decent argument for that. Do you place restrictions on citizenship? You could do that, but given that UK citizens do not have third country family reunion rights I can?t see that making any difference.
You say, ?What we are suggesting is that the level of foreign immigration be brought down to roughly the level of British emigration.? You do not say how that suggestion is to be implemented and that would have been far more worthy than a kick at McShane.
My own sugestion Sir Andrew would be to look at ways of restricting the hitherto unrestricted flows of capital which create pressures on people to follow them.
To be clear Sir Andrew, I?m not as such disagreeing with the article?s sentiments or its arguments. I?m just not altogether sure what it is that you are actually advocating other than articulating some vague unease."
"zounds
Pathetic. Well done, brownie points for you for smearing me as a racist in oh such a subtle way.
I go back to my orginial post which you seem to be unable to mentally grasp, if no other mainstream party is tackling peoples real and current fear and anger over mass immigration just wtf do you expect."
"_AT_ MonikerLewinski

Er, no. It's actually the 51st, behind such economic wastelands as the Netherlands, Belgium, Japan and South Korea....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density"
"zounds
Pathetic. Well done, brownie points for you for smearing me as a racist in oh such a subtle way.
I go back to my orginial post which you seem to be unable to mentally grasp, if no other mainstream party is tackling peoples real and current fear and anger over mass immigration just wtf do you expect."
"I've never really understood why we ""need"" immigration to ""do the jobs British people don't want to do"" when there are so many unemployed indigenous people.
They can't all be holding out for a management position..."
As a drowning man grasps at straws, your average Brit, displaced by immigration will grasp the life line thrown by the likes of the BNP. Vile fascist are the wrong way to go in ant society but for some it appears to be their last hope of a future.
"Whilst some people opposing immigration will be racist clearly there are others who aren't. Asylum-seekers, if genuine, should be treated separately as Green says. Certainly they should not be treated as shabbily as they are now, when children are locked up like criminals and denied education.
I sense, though, a lot of number-crunching to disguise the general dislike of the effect of non-white immigration despite the claims of non-racism. I also see hypocrisy: just look at Syria, where in the order of a million or more Iraqi refugees were taken in and given housing and education by a country that is not in our financial league but but an order of magnitude more hospitable. The regugees were also caused in large part by the UK and yet we let very few Iraqis through our borders.
Those opposing immigration must also realise something else, and this is not a party political point but a far wider one: if you live by globalisation then you must die by it. How selfish to export jobs abroad and then complain when those people would like a bit more of the action. Capital and companies stalk the globe and yet the work force in any country, UK included, is largely kicked into touch. So it would be far more effective for those workers protesting at foreigners taking their jobs to tackle the banks, companies and politicians involved in creating the 'global economy'. Blaming job losses on immigration is akin to shooting the messenger. I also remember the TV programme organised by Evan Davis, in which 12 British workers were asked to do the jobs that immigrants do: half never turned up at the assigned time and of the remainder, half again couldn't take the pace. So a quarter were up to taking those jobs that immigrants are accused of taking. Britain has grown flabby and selfisha nd needs to rethink many attitudes. This harping on about too9 many immigrants is just one that needs to be addressed in a more aware fashion."
"Yes, I think immigration is an issue but I find your little band off putting. You are essentially a private lobby group like the taxpayer's alliance.
Like the taxpayer's alliance people who were non doms, how many members of your little group have a second house, or main house abroad?"
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Would that be the 'large majority' on whom votes for the three major parties depend? Could it just possibly be that this majority is not quite as large as you are making out?
There are too many immigrants in the UK, I am moving to France.
"There has been plenty of money printed recently. that's true.
However personal debt exceeding GDP, a public deficit of 12% of GDP and the persistent current account deficit(which will worsen as the North Sea runs down) tells another story.
GDP per capita actually fell between 2005-10 by £281.
Importing the unskilled and extended families from the third world can only worsen the underlying, deteriorating, position.
In fact our economic position is extremely serious. We have flogged off much of our asset base(see Will Hutton ""Britain for sale: One careless owner). The financial speculating game is seriously shot - the Treasury is pleased to call this ""a loss of productive capacity"". Vince Cable calls it ""a loss of fictitious revenue"" - and of course he is absolutely correct.
Some may even have noticed that the sharp depreciation in sterling has not alleviated the trade deficit at all; and one would have to have a runny brain not to realise that this signifies a fundamental lack of real productive capacity.
The country is only 50% self-sufficient in foodstuffs
The energy situation is a disaster in the making. The regime has masked its criminal dereliction here in greenery, but there are serious concerns that power supplies will not be sustainable.
Fundamentally the population of these islands grew to their present size because of industrialism, specifically the early lead resulting in ""workshop of the world"".
Now that we have been de-industrialised only a half-wit would fail to recognise the very grave situation the country faces.
Above all we lack the foreign exchange earning capability which enabled us to support a large population."
"machine
""This country has become a hell hole and the only UKIP or BNP is willing to address the problem.""
Devon isn't a hellhole.
It's not a hellhole for everyone, everywhere.
The tube during rush hour is a pain in the arse, true, but that'll never change."
"Immigration wasn't much of a problem a hundred years ago when British people felt like filling up America, Australia and various colonial outposts.
Largely as a result of the UK's pushing to the head of the queue then, we live in a country that is richer than most others on the planet and hence an attractive place to live in.
Perhaps if the UK did a little more to help other countries develop rather than simply profiting out of them as we have done for two hundred and more years (before, during and after Empire) then we wouldn't be discussing this 'problem'.
If the UK increases its aid budget tenfold we might start to have the moral grounds for considering restricting immigration."
"BB
Have they, didn't know that. A million votes at the euro elections was a very significant rise from just a few years ago. Losing a few seats here and there is hardly a sure sign that they are finished now is it? Look at Labours last eletion results.
I believe that yes unfortunately they are continuing to grow as all three main parties still pander to big business on immigration."
"rhysapgruff
Dig out the figures for England will you old bean.
There's a good chap."
"Racism isn't some metaphysical state, it's something you either do, or say. If you have issues with immigration, then there's no reason for me to think you're a racist. If you vote for the election of a party who believes in the supremacy of the white race, then yes, I think you're a racist.

Vote for a party who will curb immigration but doesn't believe in racial supremacy. What's so hard for you to understand in that? The fact that such a party might not exist is not my problem, because I'm not concerned with immigration. I'll take political action that addresses my concerns, you take political action that addresses your concerns."
So I keep hearing. But are there any statistics that actually prove that the tiny proportion of voters who voted for the BNP have somehow become a significant number of ex-Labour party voters?
"I'm all in favour of arguing about the politics of immigration, and FWIW my own position is much the same as zounds expressed in #1.
if we are to have that conversation, 2 things need to happen
1. People don't accuse others of racism unless they are being racist.
2. People don't use the threat of a vote for the BNP as blackmail.
Once we agree to both those things, we can get on with having the debate. But if people are going to wave the BNP around as a trump card, then the debate is already way off the rails."
"What amazes me is just how the Right Wing nutjobs try to eat their own tail in this debate, they spin round and round like a silly, aggressive mutt, in an attempt to sink their teeth into their wagging target!
YOU GUYS WANTED OPEN MARKETS, didn't you?
YOU GUYS WANTED TO BREAK THE UNIONS, didn't you!
YOU ARE THE ONES WHO VOTED FOR THATCHER!
Now, you got what you voted for, EAT IT UP!"
"The multiaspect social and financial disaster of mass uncontrolled immigration promoted by New Labour is self evident ( starting with overcrowded prisons) .It also involves the scandal of Labour's cynical asset stripping of cheap labour skills from the 3rd world to avoid training Brits and keep the wages of peasants low in UK.
The point is that there has never been voter consent for Labour's policy or its curtailment of liberty or ethnic preferences over the indigenous, , so what is the voter supposed to do in a democracy ? ... vote for a party that panics the corrupt political class. In that context BNP is not seen by voters as a racist party but as an indigenous rights party and source of a protest vote ( and that seems to be the case from its website) . The alternative is UKIP which is the only significant non racial party in UK and has a very strong line on immigration control and defence of democracy."
thfc123 - are the big three parties not interested in the votes of this enormous anti-immigration majority? Even taking into consideration the lack of proportionality in the electoral system, you would think that there was substantial political capital to be gained from wresting the immigration issue away from racist parties. Any thoughts on why they are not making the rational response to this incentive?
immigration and asylum is a major problem in britain,and its all about new labour having a open door policy on both immigration and asylum to britain,and giving them good benefits when they come into britain,and thats why britain is the number one destination for these people,and every time their is a general election,new labour say they are going to cut back on immig and asylum seekers coming into britain,and it never happens,they are just playing the public as fools,and its costing the british tax payer billions,and the majority of these immigrants do not work,and asylum seekers definatley do not work.
"""You come out with all this stuff about how MacShane is wrong but you don't actually say why immigration is bad.""
If you are British and on a council housing waiting list you would know why it is bad""
If you are competing with immigrants for work you would also understand."
Point me to an opinion poll that states that the majority are in favour of mass immigration. Any poll, anywhere.
And surely that "debate" starts with a written explanation from the Prime Minister as to what has been happening in this country regarding immigration over the last 13 years, preferably commencing with an explanation as to why there was no mention of it in the 1997 manifesto.
Many asylum seekers are not allowed to work. But if they were, I imagine you'd give them due credit for contributing to national wealth through payment of taxes and national insurance contributions, right? Right?
"It's been said before, but is worth repeating:
If and when a non-racist political party adopts a serious policy to drastically reduce immigration, the support for the BNP will be decimated overnight.
Until then, I intend to hold my nose and vote BNP - there is no alternative."
"MinikerLewinski

Britain is about 50th on the list of countries by population density. We are by no means full and we are by no means overcrowded. Just take a flight from anywhere to anywhere and look out of the window. There is plenty of bugger all down there.
usini

that is exactly right. The same people banging on about immigration are using imported iPods , tvs and motor cars. Many of them probably have homes in the Algarve or in France. I am completely baffled by the idea that goods and capital should be able to move freely but people should be imprisoned within artificial borders"
Seconding_AT_JedBartlett; _AT_ a query for all the anti-immmigrants. What do you want to do about it? Prohibition doesnt work for drugs, and the Channel isnt enough to stop people. Do you propose Fortress Britain, or maybe Fortress Europe? Actually as restricting capital flows is likely to be tough, then promoting sustainable development in the source countries is likely to be the most effective long term solution.
"It will be hard to have any immigration debate at all until a large proportion of the electorate realise that the country is NOT 'going to the dogs'. Our standard of living on a global scale is very comfortable, and that won't significantly change even in the worst doomsday that the reactionary elements can muster.
As others have said, this comfort is being paid for by deprivation in the 3rd world - Zavrael nailed it, 'you live by globalisation, you die by globalisation.'
Except we're not dying. It's the failure to realise this that causes some to vote for the BNP, and the rest are racists - however in a climate of panic no one can think straight, and sensible solutions are drowned out by shrill anxiety."
"It will be hard to have any immigration debate at all until a large proportion of the electorate realise that the country is NOT 'going to the dogs'. Our standard of living on a global scale is very comfortable, and that won't significantly change even in the worst doomsday that the reactionary elements can muster.
As others have said, this comfort is being paid for by deprivation in the 3rd world - Zavrael nailed it, 'you live by globalisation, you die by globalisation.'
Except we're not dying. It's the failure to realise this that causes some to vote for the BNP, and the rest are racists - however in a climate of panic no one can think straight, and sensible solutions are drowned out by shrill anxiety."
"Pathetic. It's all Thachers fault again is it. The Labour Party actions since 1997 are the fault of a woman who left power a decade earlier are they?
You sound like Rik from the Young Ones but with less ability for elucidation."
If the majority are not in favour of mass immigration, and consider it such a salient political issue as to determine their choice of party above other considerations, then the only poll that matters is the one that will occur on May 6th. None of the major parties have come out with an unambiguous statement that they will place strong curbs on mass immigration. My guess is that this is because they know there are more salient political issues that govern the voting behaviour of the 'large majority' of which you speak.
"JedBartlett

So you support first cousin marriages, imported poverty and the establishment of colonies - brilliant

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article7069255.ece"
"""If you vote for the BNP you are endorsing racism, regardless of any other considerations.""
I hear that they also endorse the re nationalisation of the former public utilities which were taken from us and handed to those wealthy enough to buy shares."
"_AT_green
Good article.
Fancy Denis MacShane representing figures eh - that was a turn-up.
_AT_johnyarddog
Do you really need to know why uncontrolled, large-scale immigration is bad?"
"BB
May 6 will be a good sign to see if you are right. I hope you are."
"MrSilver
""I've never really understood why we ""need"" immigration to ""do the jobs British people don't want to do"" when there are so many unemployed indigenous people.
They can't all be holding out for a management position...""
In my nan's care home the senior staff were white English while the dogsbody gophers and juniors were Japanese girls and African males (not Black British but proper African chaps)
They still advertise for staff and will take pretty much anyone but either:
young white people don't want to do it
or
can't do it
or
have better options.
Why aren't young white British lads rushing to work in care homes?
We talk about this country being a ""hell hole"" but for many, many young white British lads they've actually got much better options.
We tend to hear a lot from the whiners but, obviously, a young white British man with a much cushier and better paid job than working in a care home isn't going to make the news.
Television is interested in the obese who live on pot noodles and crisps: young white man who eats fairly sensibly and knows what a tomato is not going to make the news."
Of course, OZKT29B is an immigrant.
"Immigration is a real problem for many reasons. Especially in a time of a recession when so many are out of work. The demands placed on social services are causing real problems. These will only get worse as funds to pay for these services are likely to be cut.
The Govt claim that they can't restrict or send home people from the EU as it would be in breach of the law. However they are quite happy to pick and choose what EU laws they obey when it suits them.
If there is one issue that shows what a complete mess the whole EU project is it is that we are now paying benefits (child and other types) for parents from the EU who have children living in their home countries.
So that Romanian or Polish worker who is 'contributing' to the economy here but claiming child benefit for one or more kids back in Romania or Poland is actually a drain on our economy not a contributor. If its nearly impossible to determine who is claiming illegally for UK resident children it must be totally impossible to verify that the lady from Warsaw actually has nine kids back home.
We need to stop this immediately. Similarly before we grant any job to a foreign worker the employer must ensure that they have advertised the job to a UK born job seeker who has been for interview and turned the job down. If they turn it down because it means getting up in the morning, simply stop their benefits. If you are available for work then work, If you refuse then no benefits.
Simples."
SEND HIM BACK
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"regal
""immigration and asylum is a major problem in britain,and its all about new labour having a open door policy on both immigration and asylum to britain,""
you can put this ""open door - generous benefits"" policy to the test simply by having a holiday abroad then returning without your passport and pretending to be an asylum seeker.
If you're lucky you'll get a nice mansion in London and lovely benefits for life so give it a whirl and see exactly how you get on..."
"Of course they are not. So far they have basically lied about mass immigration and have gotten away with it so it is action as usual for them.
Poll and after poll from both wings of the political spectrum have shown that the majority of people in the UK are against mass immigration. If those very same people then go and vote for the main three parties then either they have priorities higher on their list or they are just plain dense.
As to beleiving the UK populace is rational? You have a higher opinion of them than I. People on the whole are irrational, creatures of habit, lazy and kept busy with the likes of X Factor, Harry Potter and celebrity gossip. Bread and circuses."
"The problem is not just the number of people coming here, but pathological attitudes to integration.
Ironically, the left act as if the British Empire were still alive, but located exclusively in the UK. So they're all for creating ghettoes of cultural apartness and limited self-rule overseen by a central authority and kept in check by the dominance (for now) of native British power. It's a kind of imperial or apartheid-lite approach masquerading as justice, and undergirded by intellectual hypocrisy (such as dislike of traditional Christianity, but condescending support for foreign superstitions), and a paralyzing culture of guilt (how dare we awful people suggest how newcomers should live in our country).
The idea of creating a liberal, post-multicultural and colour-blind Britain based on bringing people together into a greater whole, steered by respect for British history, ought to be guiding us. This will mean being:
--stricter about integration
--putting the onus of explanation on immigrationists, not people who don't want the country transformed
--more culturally selective about where immigrants come from (not racially selective--Caribbean immigration has been a good thing, for example, because of cultural similarities)
--breaking apart the official immigration-industrial complex that wants only cheap labour
--breaking apart the unofficial immigration-industrial complex that lives off people smuggling and bogus claims
--being even stricter about marriages from abroad
--fighting the view that the more immigrants there are, and the more different they are from natives, the more justice there is.
We also need to take seriously the fact our current approach to immigration is deeply unpopular, and not seek to suppress it out of some bizarre idea that people who don't want Britain to be radically changed ought to be kept in a political closet. if our mainstream parties don't develop moderate policies in line with these basic views, the ugly result will be immoderate policies pursued by the BNPs and Geert Wilders of the world."
"thfc123
Of course it was Thatcher who set the policies we are still living under to this day.
Why is it that Thatcherite supporters deny their own place in history?
Thatcherism at it's very core is ABOUT free movement of labour, goods and services.
The Republicans in the USA are the same, the fan base rail against ""wetbacks"" and ""Illegals"" when the party they constantly VOTE for are the very party OF immigration which undermines the very same fucking idiots who vote for them!
Let me ask you this, thfc123, Who wants cheap labour?
Who wants to undermine pay and conditions for the working class?
Hmmm?
Sort your heads out!"
"Anglophobia,
The idea of creating a liberal, post-multicultural and colour-blind Britain based on bringing people together into a greater whole, steered by respect for British history, ought to be guiding us.
Why?"
"_AT_2sides2everystory
We've been here lots of times before - the race replacement / existential threat argument is so niche that we may as well focus on a Scientologist perspective on immigration.
The notion of race replacement does not, and will not, drive immigration policy. It's just a dead issue, and doesn't deserve much engagement frankly."
"Zounds

Of course it's economically feasible.
Low wage immigration of unqualified third world migrants with families is a net drain on the economy. They receive more in services and benefits such as health and education than they contribute. That is why per capita GDP has declined."
"Ken Barlow

FFS - have you not even noticed the employment crisis affecting the young in particular, and it is not just about ""young White British lads"" obviously

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8199269.stm
The number of ""economically inactive people"" at around 8 million rises every time the regime claims unemployment is falling.
Many hundreds of thousands of public sector jobs will go over the next few years.
There are many university students and grads who have bought themselves a £20000 lottery ticket"
"Disgusting that the liberal left establishment is still throwing around accusations of racism in order to stiffle debate.
The BNP are a diversion - could not come at a better time for the left establishment as it further conflates the issue of a genuine concern versus an irrational prejudice.
Unfortunately most people are pretty ignorant of the real damage that NuLabour has done to our democracy. By changing the terms of debate so radically they have created the preconditions for a genuinely racist party to flourish.
The key challenge is one of education. On the doorstep I try to emphasis to people that we cannot even begin to address the real issues until we can recapture the language away from people such as Zounds who have a personal interest in guarding it so closely for their own selfish ends"
"TomHarrison - Thank you for your reply.
I am an agnostic on cousin marriages, though I do recognise that there are downsides. I am less certain about whether or not it is the state's place to tell its citizens who they can and can not marry in these circumstances.
Imported poverty? Not a bad point, but again I am not sure that there should be a wealth restriction on marriage. Certainly when my wife and I married and went through the immigration system there was a test of subsistence, and immigrant spouses have, 'no recourse to public funds.'
Presumably you regard it as your place to tell people who they can and can not marry. Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. It's just that I am less convinced that to is for the state to place legislate for intent on the basis you set out."
"_AT_ mynewteyescrewtinny
If you are British and on a council housing waiting list you would know why it is bad
Why? Are there not enough houses? Shouldn't we just build more then? Didn't loads get sold off in the 80s? Can we just buy them back?
If you are competing with immigrants for work you would also understand.
I'm not right now, but I was last year and I got a job fine."
"Immigration may be necessary to bankroll the ballooning public sector in this country. It's no surprise that these two things have gone hand in hand courtesy of The Bankruptcy Party.
Vote Labour, and emigrate as fast as possible."
"A link on the article leads to a website called 'balanced migration'. Which has a nice link to some Brown bashing. Their press releases aren't much better. Balanced?
Could Mr Green advise us as to who is building a house every six minutes foro immigrants?
I'm scared on any organisation that talks about bringing population growth under control."
"Beautiful Burnout

It is remarkably myopic to look at the 2004 Euros in terms of the the size of the BNP vote and imply from that there is no widespread dissatisfaction with the scale of immigration.
What about UKIP who achieved a large vote?
What is the difference between what UKIP's new leader says about Islamic immigration and the BNP position?"
"Immigration is like money and fertiliser.
The right amount is very,very good.
Too little,and you wither and die.
Too much,and you will be swamped.
All the globalisers care about is cheap labour,and opening up new markets.
They do not care about people at all."
"That's absolute crap!
Racism is quite clearly not just something you ""do or say"".
As soon as you see someone of a different race and classify him/her as black, or white, or whatever, surely that's basically racist as your acknowledging the concept that races exist -
it doesn't matter that you've been force-fed the notion that ""we're all the same"", and mentally use that as some kind of cover-up against any nasty thoughts that might occur to you based on race - a concept that every human being acknowledges in their day-to-day functioning..

Well i don't see how you can tell people to vote for a particular party, and then say ""if that particular party doesn't exist then that's not my problem""....?
If that's not your problem, what are you doing telling people to vote for a non-existant party then?
If you're telling people to vote for that party, but it's non-existent, then that absolutely is a problem you're going to have to overcome before you start telling people to vote for them, jeez!"
"Of course it would be good to see the end of fast track work visas for skilled occupations, or introduce a minimum pay consumate to the position on offer, so that a few university grads and older workers could be trained up to plug skills gaps, rather than the labour being imported on the cheap.
I met one Indian guy the other day who has had three jobs in the past six months. He'l happily take the £25K home to Mumbai when he's done, meanwhile, ex- colleagues of mine struggle to find an IT job to pay the mortgage.
It's not all about picking fruit and wiping *rses."
Unless economic growth picks up in the next few years the problem of immigration will resolve itself. Simples.
"I am a BNP supporter (although not a party member). My reality is that i do put my fellow countrymen's interests before the rights of foreigners to come and settle in Britain. I hold the position that we have endured enough immigration by people of alien cultures and it it damaging to the cohesion and fabric of our nation. I don't think British or White people are superior to non-whites and i don't think we have any right at all to discriminate against non-white British citizens.
With regard to the population increase, England is becoming an increasingly less comfortable place to live and the quality of life is falling. We have housing shortages, houses being built with little or no garden which are unfit for raising families. We have increasing road congestion and enviromental issues to contend with. Every person in our small country needs space to live, work and enjoy themselves. Clearly, this becomes a bigger issue the more we add to the population. Prospects of an increase to 70 or 80 million are a disaster in waiting for our future generations.
I don't really care if you call me a racist, be my guest. I know what makes sense and what doesn't. It is time to raise the drawbridge with regard to MASS immigration and again I reassert that ALL the people of Britain should be treated in the same way."
"I know that that is the reality of it, I've worked in retail management myself and even at min wage plus £3 an hour I couldn't get staff.
It's that personally, I just don't think benefits should be an option when ANY work is available."
"The reason all three main parties support open markets is because the Leftist who argued against the idea were trashed by ""the Forces of Conservationism"".
The people who brought you Open Markets were the elites, big business, the city and the Murdoch's of this world.
Yes folk's Immigration is a product of RIGHT WING IDEOLOGY."
"""Of course it was Thatcher who set the policies we are still living under to this day.""
If we could jump forwards in a time machine a 100 years I imagine this will still be the refrain of many Guardian readers.
There are many reasons why Britain changed under Thatcher, not least because Labour and the unions bankrupted the country. Since they're doing it again now, we can expect to hear this broken record for another century.
Yawn!"
"Jed Bartlett

That is just rubbish on many different fronts. Much capital has been invested outside of the west, particularly in Asia. And that creates jobs, which creates, wealth, which creates consumers etc, etc, all of which result in higher salaries and standard of living as witnessed in South Korea and Japan before it. China is following the same path. However you appear to want to restrict the flow of capital to developing countries. Brilliant!"
"A lot actually. While the BNP are bringing the immigration debate to the forefront. Treating them as an alternative due to political greed is certainly the wrong way to go about it.
Nick Griffin has claimed £200,000 in expenses in the European parliament already and the party has a history of tax dodging and irregularities in their annual published accounts. Yet people are still concentrating on the rhetoric at the forefront and not the anti-working class policies the BNP hides away from its own members. Spoiling your ballot is the only way you should vote if you want to protest.
We do need a balanced debate on immigration and how to control it however. It has become a joke in how the government is too meek to confront the French government regarding camps in Calais and questions need to be asked of the immigrants who come to claim asylum yet wont claim in France, Germany, Spain or any other mainland European country on the way to Britain. However it needs to be rational and not based on knee jerk reactions like the BNP want."
""" MrSilver
29 Mar 2010, 11:39AM
I've never really understood why we ""need"" immigration to ""do the jobs British people don't want to do"" when there are so many unemployed indigenous people. ""
At the lower unskilled end of things immigrants are prepared to work under tems and conditions which most uk people wouldn't (or can't).
eg I was offered £7/hour (agency work ie casual) labouring but it was 90 miles away.
eg I was offered minimum wage work (agency) cutting lettuce for 8 hours /day. However from pick up point to dropping off was 12 hours. ie 4 hours/day spent travelling with extra to and from the pick up. ie 13 hours away from home to earn very little.
eg Agencies here are advertising for hod carriers at £6/hour, self employed and 12 hours/day.
18 years ago a hod carrier would expect about £10/hour."
"the Forces of Conservatism" I meant
"bigfacedog

Care to elucidate what you mean by that accusation?
Have I stolen the language because I call the BNP a racist organisation? Or because I think that someone who votes for a white supremacist organisation with a history of explicit fascist and racist policies is also a racist? To me, that seems to be calling a spade a spade."
"I simply do not understand the thinking behind some of the views expressed on this thread.
I am married to an immigrant and have a mixed race child. We both have a personal vested interest in the harmonious integration of immigrants to this country. I also realise that all nations, if they are healthy have a certain amount of immigration and emigration.
I have lived in a number of different countries and appreciate the ways in which the introduction of new perspectives and ways of living can benefit a host culture.
However, I do not see any reason why the UK should have a policy based on mass immigration, or that such a policy is somehow justified by arguments showing how many people this country could physically sustain if we all became vegetarians, lived an exemplary green lifestyle and so on..
Britain's native population, including many established immigrant communities, have made it quite clear that they do not want any further mass immigration. I do not see any reason why their wishes should be ignored, or their desire to preserve their own culture and way of life treated as racist or invalid. They are surely entitled to be masters in their own house.
Immigration is not an automatic benefit. There are large communities of people now living in Britain who are basically third world peasants it will take a generation or more to integrate. Their economic value to the nation is negligible, they have few if any skills to offer and they are in some cases aggressively opposed to allowing their children to adapt to the cultural norms of this country, prefering to demand cultural concessions that fly in the face of the established norms of British society. I fail to see why we should continue to import more of the same.
Our membership of the EU requires us to allow freedom of movement to EU citizens. This is a reciprocal arrangement of benefit to the UK, whatever xenophobes might say, which has been made by several members of an international club and all must abide by the rules. It does not follow that we should therefore have open borders to all comers.
The only sensible solution is a points based system that allows the UK to pick and choose applicants for immigration based upon what they have to offer, their fluency in English and the likelihood of their successfully integrating into British society.
Asylum should be dealt with entirely seperately, as a moral issue, not an immigration one. But even here strict rules must be applied. It is preposterous to have applicants for asylum living in the UK, launching appeal after appeal on the public purse, despite the fact that their case has been seen as not fulilling the criteria for asylum.
We cannot have an immigration policyy, based upon a middle class guilt complex, coupled with a tendency to scapegoat the white working class, as being lazy, racist, stupid and reactionary - effectively a repositiory for all the ills of society.
Almost 70 years after the end of empire, the UK does not need to keep making amends for imperialism. There is no case for continuing with mass immigration and less for the benfits it brings. Enough is enough.
Britain cannot single handedly accomodate the poor of the third world. The countries whose populations are fleeing them need to be helped to provide a better life for their people and forced to provide good governance, democracy and human rights. This will be difficuilt and take a long time, but its a more realistic option than simply allowing millions of new dependants to set up home in the UK."
"I see Chivas Regal is back, with their stream-of-consciousness fantasy rants masquerading as a contribution to debate. Let's listen in, shall we..?

Immigration may well be, conflating it with asylum (which is relatively tiny and not a problem) is nonsense - and dangerous nonsense at that. Read papers other than the Mail and Express and you might find less of that.

Oh, FFS - Britain does not have an ""open door policy"" on either of these things. Immigration from outside the EU is more difficult than it has ever been, and the contant announcements of new ""crackdowns"" on asylum, the imprisonment of refugees and their kids in camps, etc - all implemented to try and appease idiots like regal, by the way - are proof of this.

Balls, bollocks, bullshit and shite. Have a look at the benefits immigrants are entitled to over and above UK-born citizens, purely by dint of their being immigrants. Can you see them? Me neither. And the idea that refugees are living on anything but the breadline - especially since they are forbidden by law from working (to appease idiots who whine that they're ""taking our jobs"") - is arrant crap.

Which it, er, isn't. In fact, developing countries host most of the world's refugees. Combined, nations with per capita incomes of less than $2,000 host more than two-thirds of all refugees. Swallowing more lies from the Mail/Express axis again, I see. No need for fact-checking when things conform to your, er, prejudice, eh?

Apart from all the aforementioned crackdowns/imprisonment/deportations etc...

As you prove with your own post, sometimes it's not exactly difficult.

How much does it ""cost"", exactly? Do you know? What is this compared to the total UK budget?

The vast majority of immigrants do work, nitwit, and a damn sight harder than most of us. The issue of refugees being forbidden from working has been dealt with by Benulek, and myself earlier in this post.
Your anger is pathetic, your arguments threadbare and your understanding non-existent. Why anyone should feel the need to address the ""concerns"" of people like you is quite beyond me. Stop whining."
"The british, french, german, swish (even the greeks you know...) are more and more turning against immigration in general and against immigrants in particular. Hmmm... Have you ever stopped for a moment to think why so many people leave their homelands, families, friends, to go to a foreign and often hostile environment to live and work?
Some claim that immigration from the 3rd world countries is the worst. But why is that? Do you ever realize that much of the wealth in the west comes from the exploitation of these 3rd world countries from the west? If not, I strongly recommend you to watch ""Darwin's Nightmare"", and you will get a vague idea of how these 3rd world countries continue to this day to remain 3rd world, while the west continues to accummulate wealth (although now this wealth is more and more concentrated in the hands of the 'few').
As other people have noted, in every country there are some jobs that the natives do not care to do. Nursig homes in the U.K., for example, are advertising care vacancies all the time. Care staff is comprised by a 70% (my personal estimation) of foreign people. Have you ever been on a train or a bus at about 6 o'clock in the morning? It is the time when care staff go to their jobs. If you do get on a bus at that time, don't be surprised if 99% of the people there are not british.
I don't want to imply that the average british person personally ""owes"" something to the person from Africa. However, you should realize that we have stripped these people from their natural resources (e.g., woodlands, exclusive exploitation of fishing in African lakes by west owned companies, etc.) and wealth (e.g., African diamonds). There is nothing left for them to do there. But most of them genuinely love their homelands and would run back if there was something left for them to do there other than die of hunger!"
"TomHarrison
""Many hundreds of thousands of public sector jobs will go over the next few years.""
and the right wing working class English are absolutely delighted with this.
Anyways, I do agree with your points, of course, but it doesn't doesn't undermine mine: lots and lots of white English have done very well for themselves over the past 30 years or so and continue to do so - talk of the country being a ""hell hole"" and sinister plots to destroy England/the English doesn't tell the whole story.
The current recession/depression will be throwing spanners in the works, of course (as will peak oil - it's quite possible we are all f**ked anyway :) )"
"I'm not insensitive to the issues you mention. In my own experience, after uni I went back to South Wales and much to my suprise I was unemployed for about 10 months. When I finally gave up on finding work there and made plans to move, I was on a waiting list to be a binman.
I simply had to make a choice between staying where I was and living on the couch with Jeremy Kyle for company or move somewhere I could get a job.
I did the latter."
sorry, corrections: "swiss" and "nursing"
"FreemanMoxy says:
'Why anyone should feel the need to address the ""concerns"" of people like you is quite beyond me. Stop whining.'
That's always the crux of this conversation - do you need to address concerns that are more to do with ill-informed panic rather than real cause for concern?"
"One for the scrapbook!

If you're trying to hide the real reasons immigration winds you up so, best to stick to a coherent set of rationalisations. People might get the idea that you just don't like bloody foreigners..."
"John Yarddog

Do you know nothing?
The employment crisis in this country is matched by the housing crisis.
The IFS has calculated that, on the gov't's own suspect representations there will be a cut of 25% in those depts whose spending is not ring-fenced - this includes housing.
Private housing building has suffered severely because of the credit crunch; the criminal greed of the banks and the necessity to re-build their capital bases has acted like a vice on lending.
None of this is going to alter any time soon, indeed the probable outcome is a double dip recession as the ""recovery"" stalls - the relatively feeble stimuli are ending and public spending will be deeply cut, whoever ""wins"" the May 6th farce.
Why anyone should vote to supply these FPTP wankers with salaries, perks and future lobbying opportunities is a mystery anyway

With what?
RTB's were sold at a fraction of their value, the money's gone . The new owners would hardly be enthused at compulsory purchase"
"Have you got hard evidence of this from verifiable sources?
£200,000 for the 10 months that he has been an MEP is shocking and quite contrary to the BNP's publicity on their MP's. If true, along with the tax dodging, this will ensure that they don't get my vote."
"Julius,

Your source? Because according to Nat Geo, the land mass of the UK in sq. kilometers is 242,910. x 100 for square metres and you get 3 795.46875 per person.
This is if you divide up the land mass of the country per person, assuming that there is nothing there (pesky things like houses, roads, etc).
Now how much of the land is arable and is not currently in use with some other function, that's interesting. I take it you're saying that the percentage of arable land mass in the country is about 25%, which would equate to slightly below 1000 square metres per person (assuming a pop of 64 million). I can't find a proper source for this, but it does seem to be about 25%. So let's go with that.
For this figure to be applicable today, you would have to demonstrate that this is currently available, not paved over by urbanization, and not going to become such in the future. You would then need to demonstrate that if, hypothetically, it would be ""more than enough to sustain twice the current population."" Bearing in mind that by the time the pop got this high, if it ever did, either we'd have a replacement for fossil fuels or you'd be out there with a trowel or all the oxen you could get your paws on. Where you'd get the water to irrigate enough crops to feed 120 million would be a factor, but hey..

The FAO is the food and agriculture org of the UN. 0.07 hectares in square metres is 700 square meters. You cite 1,000 sq m per person, which at the present time is 25% - the current arable land mass. Assuming the above is true, on what basis do you say that we could easily support double our current population? Because, going by these figures, once you got below 0.07 hectares of arable land per person, you wouldn't be able to guarantee your own food security (and you'd have to pretty selective about what you let people eat).
It's quite possible you know a lot more about this than me, so feel free to correct me with your own data, but I'm not convinced at the moment by your argument."
Of course you can't even call a spade a spade these days without the Politically Correct Brigade jumping down your throat!
"Well, CIF is just about the last place to hold it. Anyway...
My impression (as the son of Muslim immigrants) is that people aren't so much worried about race/antionality anymore, as they are about culture - and in particular, about Islam.
Personally, I'm OK with you guys saying that you dont want your country's axis to shift."
"I have not read one genuine rational argument as to why immigration is wrong. Everybody in the uk decends from immigrants. Immigrants as a group have a much higher percentage of workers compared with the whole population. Talk of being swamped and lack of infrastructure is complete hum-bug. Britain is the 60th or so most densely populated country in the world whilst some of the most populated have the best standard of living and public services. You dont hear of Hong Kong or Taiwan or the Emirates being overpopulated. The main resource in any society is its working people. Experience of congestion and dense populated centres are the result of urbanisation and the related issues.
Talk of foreign cultures and losing identity dont stand up to scrutiny either. The social and cultural transformations brought about by industrialisation, technology, town planning, education and health care just to name a few render the everyday life experience of even our own parents and grandparents completely different to our own and childrens. Human society is experiencing a period/ epoch of enrmous changes brought about by capitalism. Indeed human migration is about the only human activity that has remained consistent. Cultural developments throughout the world have infuenced the rest of the world for thousands of years and this will go on unabaited.
The real task facing the working people is how to oganise to ensure that they have the power to manage society so that it is organised in their interests and our brothers and sisters of other lands are common strugglers in this great quest. Those that encourage working people of different nationalities to fight amongst themselves do the bidding of those who currently benefit from the current system which serves the interests of the capitalists and super rich who indeed have everything to loose from the working people taking control. The far right have always been employed to divide the workers when the capitalist system can no longer deliver and to prepare the workers for war, being the solution of 1st choice employed by the elite to maintain its power and wealth."
"_AT_ TomHarrison
So why don't we get rid of Trident or whatever and use the money to build new houses? Or pay higher taxes?"
"Benulek

Absolutely.
And if you vote Labour, Conservative, or Liberal Democrat, you are endorsing genocide, regardless of any other considerations."
"FreemanMoxy
STOP OPPRESSING ME LEFTIE."
"juliuzbeezer
29 Mar 2010, 11:22AM


And much easier to blame meat-eaters, it seems."
"DSG International one of the largest electronic retailers in Europe owns Dixsons, Currys, PC Worlds etc in the UK.
A few years ago it managed to sell the idea of CO-sourcing to its UK IT employees. I heard from the grapevine that after little more than a year, the OUT-sourcing company has replaced bulk of the UK IT workforce with Indian nationals who have moved to the UK !!! One usually expect some staff movement and replacements with a mixture with differnt skills and culture to contribute to the company. But not wholesale takeover like this.
How often has this been repeated up and down the country?"
"BNP voters aren't racist - they're just alienated.
Ha ha, yes, very good... And UKIP voters don't hate the EU, Green voters aren't environmentalists and SNP voters are English nationalists. If a political party is primarily known for their Nazi lunatic tendencies, what possible basis could we have for concluding that people who vote for them are racist? The very thought!
Nonetheless, let's assume it's true, and BNP voters are just making a point. They're showing their displeasure by voting for Nazis, often with the result that they get Nazi councillors. These are people willing to burn their own neighbourhoods down in a fit of pique; electoral toddlers, red-faced, squeaming and squeaming on the floor of the bus, and they deserve the same level of respect.
I'm a great believer in learning through experience - I say, let 'em watch while their new Nazi councillors find providing public services a little tougher than shoving shit through a Pakistani shopkeeper's letterbox or baseball-batting Asian teenagers.
If there's one party capable of making a bigger cock of governance than the mainstream parties, it's the BNP, and anyone stupid enough to vote for Nazi fuckwits deserves to be represented by Nazi fuckwits."
"_AT_zounds
Mwahahahaaaa!"
"Ken Barlow

why do you suppose that the ""right wing English working class"" are ""absolutely delighted"" with the prospect of savage cuts?
Back in 79 there were approx 13 million engaged in manufacturing - this is down to about 2.5 million now.
So people who previously worked in manufacturing now tend to work, if they do, in the public services.
It seems very perverse to suppose that they would be ""absolutely delighted"" at the prospect of the dole queue"
"Tetleyteaman
I'm glad you asked
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23816206-bnp-chief-nick-griffin-claims-pound-200000-euro-expenses.do - Evening Standard Report on it
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5837478/bnp-fails-to-publish-european-parliament-expenses.thtml - The Spectator finds out that outside of Griffin, they wont publish expenses either and they possibly received up to £500,000
You can even look it up on his own EU website where he claims £175,000 - http://nickgriffin.eu/accounts-expenses/
So much for getting the ""pigs out of the trough"" eh?"
"From the Migrationwatchuk website:
Prime Minister gets his facts wrong on immigration
March 27, 2010
In his pod cast on Friday 26 March, the Prime Minister said ""Some people talk as if net inward migration is rising. In fact, it is falling - down from 237,000 in 2007, to 163,000 in 2008, to provisional figures of 147,000 last year"".
The first two figures refer to Long Term Immigration and are correct. The last of these figures is wrong on three counts:
- It refers to the International Passenger Survey (IPS) which is only one element in the estimate of migration. These figures are adjusted for asylum seekers, migration from Ireland, those who come as visitors and apply to stay etc. As a result, the statisticians usually add about 38,000 to the annual IPS figure to produce the estimate for immigration.
- The first two numbers are for calendar years but the third is a mid year figure up to June 2009.
- It is also a cumulative annual total covering the previous 4 quarters so it is different in kind from a calendar year figure, especially if there is seasonal variation.
Commenting, Sir Andrew Green Chairman of Migrationwatch said, ""The clear intention was to produce a series of figures which looked like a decline even if they were not of the same kind. In fact immigration in 2009 could well be higher than in 2008 although nobody, including the Prime Minster, can yet know. This amounts to fiddling the figures for presentational purposes and is completely unacceptable, especially on such a sensitive subject.?
_AT_jedbartlett_AT_
I think that Green is being guarded. The web site only quotes Government figures, the site also strongly objects to racist language and promotes what looks like the common good. Meanwhile, as we see here, the PM can be as disingenuous as he chooses and proposes 'facts' that seem like nothing but propagandised dissimulation.
Here we see Gordo actually telling an untruth about the figures that the State itself produces. So with Green playing what seems like a straight bat and staying within the bounds of decency for a cause that benefits us all, Gordo has no such limiting rules and is free to play fast a loose with statistics, presumably aware that anyone upbraiding him on his laxness (or tactics) will fall straight into the racist, BNP, whitey-Blighty (from bilayati in Hindi, meaning foreign, how true, how true) trap that is always the last ditch clincher for anyone working their purpose and not wanting to talk about the reality of the situation.
What are the Government's tactics? They are obviously embarrassed about the influx as they invariably seek to play down the numbers; either that or they use one of their attack dogs to quell opposition by intimidation. The record of immigration is one of the most covert pieces of politics ever witnessed. A measure never voted for and one that cannot be regulated even in times of desperate financial difficulty with all manner of statistics on unemployment pointing to difficulty and down-turn.
But it means nothing to Labour. The national debt and the prospects for industrial recovery look grim and would be a lot worse if the figures were not regulated by Labour's chosen method of employment adjustment, making more non-jobs available in the public sector. The country is creaking under the preponderance of spare capacity and yet there is no limitation on the flow or the spectrum of peoples being allowed access to the torpid market.
One can only come to the conclusion that the whole affair is as Andrew Neather admitted to, that the whole charade is a politically motivated stunt, a method of buying votes, increasing the client state. We would all wish that such was not the case, that Government is above such legerdemain, but we are, increasingly, having to face the truth that we are not the economic power-house that the absorption of guest workers on such a scale would necessitate."
"I have not read one genuine rational argument as to why immigration is wrong. Everybody in the uk decends from immigrants. Immigrants as a group have a much higher percentage of workers compared with the whole population. Talk of being swamped and lack of infrastructure is complete hum-bug. Britain is the 60th or so most densely populated country in the world whilst some of the most populated have the best standard of living and public services. You dont hear of Hong Kong or Taiwan or the Emirates being overpopulated. The main resource in any society is its working people. Experience of congestion and dense populated centres are the result of urbanisation and the related issues.
Talk of foreign cultures and losing identity dont stand up to scrutiny either. The social and cultural transformations brought about by industrialisation, technology, town planning, education and health care just to name a few render the everyday life experience of even our own parents and grandparents completely different to our own and childrens. Human society is experiencing a period/ epoch of enrmous changes brought about by capitalism. Indeed human migration is about the only human activity that has remained consistent. Cultural developments throughout the world have infuenced the rest of the world for thousands of years and this will go on unabaited.
The real task facing the working people is how to oganise to ensure that they have the power to manage society so that it is organised in their interests and our brothers and sisters of other lands are common strugglers in this great quest. Those that encourage working people of different nationalities to fight amongst themselves do the bidding of those who currently benefit from the current system which serves the interests of the capitalists and super rich who indeed have everything to loose from the working people taking control. The far right have always been employed to divide the workers when the capitalist system can no longer deliver and to prepare the workers for war, being the solution of 1st choice employed by the elite to maintain its power and wealth."
By all means lets have sensible selective immigration unlike the situation in London where we now have one teenager being hacked to death every two weeks.
"I actually think the left suffer from a false sense of security on immigration. When I look at Western Europe, I see ageing, shrinking, secular-liberal populations surrounded on one side by the Atlantic Ocean and to the other by burgeoning, young, highly conservative and religious societies.
The left seem to imagine that this is the 19th C, when the white man ruled the world, when he sat on top of the pile, and everything was done with has grace and favour.
The fact is that a country like Scotland could effectively cease to exist as a distinct culture and nation with only the minutest of population shifts.
I don't think the left quite grasp the situation we are in in Western Europe. Personally I think it may well be game over for European secular democracies, but I live in hope."
"Immigaration is a crucial issue. The reason why it is so easy to fling fascist labels at people ...racist bigot etc is because over the past 10 yrs the only people to talk about it have been the Mail BNP etc
THIS HAS TO CHANGE. The debate must be had. But it has to be reasioned...it is well within the rigts of any country to decide who enters it...and often to try to attract talent. Britain would be mad not to.
A few years ago the dutch ran a campaign aimed at immigrants showing modern holland....woman working, free expression, gay rights etc...They were condemened in some liberal circles...but in fact this is the way forward.
If you are only coming to a country for economic reasons...fine...but bring a usable talent. If you like what you see....even better!!"
Waterloosunset, we can suppose the policing of football hooligans is all a waste of time?
"John Yarddog

The cost of Trident, if indeed it is incurred, will be spread over future years, decades apparently - it doesn't impact on the fiscal crisis which has got us by the balls, well - right now

The current regime has factored in an additional £19bn of increased taxation. There is only so far you can go with this, too high a level of taxation will choke off the necesary private sector recovery - a slim prospect as it is. It also needs to be borne in mind that the UK population has to service one of the highest levels of personal debt in the world.
To be able to go on borrowing the gov't needs to be able to show that there is a credible plan for reducing the amount that it is proposing to borrow - a deficit reduction of 50% is envisaged. Even this will mean stacking debt upon debt.
So they are proposing to increase taxes, but also they claim the economy will grow at 3% plus from 2011, thereby increasing tax revenue. This seems improbable given the obviously weak fundamentals.
Finally they propose by ""efficiency savings"" firstly, then cuts to make up the rest of the difference
One example of an ""efficency saving"" is the pie in the sky reduction of NHS sickness by 550 millions.
All this demonstrates Panglossian levels of optimism.
But in any event there is no room for expanding social housing construction upon the basis of what the lying idiots have been pleased to tell us so far"
"Oh god, another immigration thread.
We expect cheap foreign goods, produced by cheap foreign labour. This means we get lots of cheap stuff, but foreigners in poor countries keep the negative effects of their cheapness - poverty.
We benefit from their poverty. We expect ""free markets"" to allow the ""free"" movement of goods and captial, but not labour.
Maybe if we (the west) stopped exploiting developing countries, people from those countries might wish to stay there, and not come here.
This issue is not just about us and what we want . We need to put ourselves in the shoes of the would be immigrant and ask ourselves ""what would we feel"", ""what would we do"".
We can't have it both ways.
(By we I mean us as a nation)...."
"Sir Andrew:

Probably worth getting your Balanced Migration friends on-message, as they say in 2006 that all EU migrants represented a third of immigrants (http://www.balancedmigration.com/ourcase.php)
The reason I want to focus on this statement is because it's a clear sign of statistics being represented in such a way as to represent a particular viewpoint. Your point is that EU countries of origin are accounting for a minority of immigration. However, if I were to present it differently, I could say that ""the contribution of the EU-27 (well, 26 - excluding the UK) to immigration is highly disproportionate: migrants from these countries, representing less than 10% of the world's population, provided 33% of migrants to the UK"". If it's just migrants from Eastern European countries, then that figure becomes even more remarkable. Neither statement is factually inaccurate, but both use the same figure to suggest different things.
Apologies if anyone else has already made this point.
Also, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the role of free movement in promoting the low unemployment rates and relatively high levels of return of Eastern European migrants (http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/new_europeans.pdf). Not to suggest this as a panacea (I'm very interested in ""calm and rational debate""), but perhaps to suggest that if you are serious about your goal then you might want to think more broadly. It would also be interesting to hear your thoughts on ageing and its relation to immigration (again, I don't think labour-force replacement immigration is a good idea, but it could be part of the mix, especially given the propensity of immigrants to work in unpopular jobs like old-age care - cf http://www.compas.ox.ac.uk/fileadmin/files/pdfs/Migrant_Care_Workers/Migrant%20Care%20Workers%20Executive%20Summary%20-%20website%20version.pdf).
Looking forward to hearing some calm and rational debate!"
"_AT_PD
No comprende."
matt Vauxhall. all humans have the potential to contribute to the social good. Talent is not ythe issue. By virtue of being human one can contribute.
I doubt there would be as much anger about immigrants if, as in the US, we tended to be as patriotic as natives. But since so many of us came here at a time when the chattering elite thought we would be a useful stick for beating conservatives and local tradtions with, many have played along and acted as if we're the bearers of enlightened superiority whose purity depends on not acting like Britons. I come from a country not unlike Britain, but even in my case I've noticed that progressive friends think I'm a reactionary for liking aspects of Britain that predate New Labour.
"nottydave

Who is this ""we""?
Neo-liberalism is an elite project. The fact that the 3 main parties are globalist parties doesn't mean that the population as a whole is jumping for joy.
If you go to former industrial towns and cities - Hull, W'hampton, Coventry, Doncaster, the South Wales valleys then you would have to be blind not to see that they are completely fucked. The pot-holes are a dead give-away
And it is going to get a whole load worse as the public spending which has masked the scale of the disaster is withdrawn"
"I have absolutely no intention of gambling my future against your need to address perceived historical injustices on my behalf thank you juliuzbeezer.
May I suggest you set up a standing order to charity?"
waterloo. the potential to kill lies in all groups, not just black as your comment about knife crime suggests?
Are you saying that this is caused by immigration? Me no comprendo tambien.
We cannot accommodate any more of the third world.
"The ""racist"" argument is really losing hold on people these days. The concept that people who are racist are bad is outdated, and with the revelation that New Labour actually encouraged mass immigration for political gain over the Tories has made more people than ever openly racist. I believe, sadly, that it is becoming more and more acceptable for people to hold openly racist and xenophobic views these days, and you could attribute that mainly to the last governments' immigration policy. It just won't do any longer to demonise people for voting for the BNP when none of the main parties even pretend to listen to their concerns.
The fact is that people are angry towards the white upper/upper-middle classes treating the poor in this country with contempt by making it abundantly clear that they have as much value to their country as a labourer from Somalia who's been here for two months. I believe that the political class believe that the majority of the population are idiots - this issue, people voting for the BNP, seems to me to be an example of the ""idiots"" using the power of their vote to make a statement to the arrogance of their government. It's not even a straight whites versus blacks argument any more, it's nothing like the 70's. You will find just as many people of colour who were born in this country express anti-immigration sentiment as the supposedly vile white welfare class.
It is quite obvious to any person who doesn't have the luxury of residing in an ivory tower that this country is massively overpopulated, there are not enough jobs for the people who live here, housing is a degrading shambles for anyone who bothers to work, but is not earning over 40k a year, and that nobody has proper jobs any more, merely swapping desks in public sector jobs that they are then attacked for, for being ""useless""."
"That's true up to the point they become settled, at which point they become a huge liability:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=462
If you import a culture that does not generally approve of women working, it is hardly surprising that in Pakistani and Bangladeshi women for example have are 75% economically inactive. However in a society such as ours with universal social care, all expect benefits, a health service, housing etc. The reason these countries don't have such services is the culture couldn't possible support the luxuries we enjoy economically."
And still there is no mention of what it is that people find most troubling about immigration: cultural incompatibility. That is a taboo topic. So we play this absurd game of pretending that all that matters is the absolute amount of immigration, regardless of who the immigrants are.
"_AT_zounds

I don't think - I could be wrong - that anyone here is saying that they vote BNP. What is being said is that because the major three parties don't address people's concerns on this matter, and that there is a lack of clear and concise debate and information on the topic uncoloured by rhetoric and insults on both sides, that many people have turned to the BNP. Can't stand the BNP myself, but let's deal with reality, not personal preferences.
People feel that they are not represented by the three major parties, which is the reason why they vote for the lunatic fringe and the one-trick ponies like UKIP. If the conservatives, labour and the lib-dem crowd all ignore the issues that bother people, what else is going to happen?
And I'm sorry - but it's far too easy and too much of a cop-out to say on the one hand that people should vote for a party that does represent thier concerns and then say that it's their problem to find one that's not the BNP.
Surely the thing is to make people less concerend about the issue?"
"juliuzbeezer:

Your own trope is disingenuous. We have been net importers of food since before 1900. We nearly starved in WW1. We nearly starved again in WW2 and 30,000 of our merchant seamen died keeping us going. In 1947 we had a population of 47m. It is now at least 61m, an increase of 14m in 60 years - guess which government waved-in most of the surge. We are now net importers of fuels, too. But never mind about fuels and food, we can import from a world that has plenty of each. And expansive thinkers like John Prescott have the solution to the ever-long housing queues - we build eco-towns over more of our food-producing acres. Go figger."
If we condone the level of mass immigration into the UK then we are guilty of supporting the bogus expansionist free-market capitalism that goes hand in hand with it. America was founded on such confusion. The Japanese fear the endless expansion to their economy that this treadmill equation will produce; meaning that a country must suck more and more people into it in order to support it in the future. It stands to reason that such a pyramid built like this will collapse. In answer to an earlier comment wherein it wwas suggested that the UK has plenty of space left to accomodate a much higher population, I cant agree because there is very little real countryside left in the UK. Our town planners and developers have gone nuts.
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"Cassiopeia9000
try the office for national statistics. It's not hard to find and that gives figures of 67% of the total land in the UK as agricultural and of that 39.1% being arable. So about 26% of the land according to a pretty good source is arable. So we can feed ourselves ; and you can assume that under pressure a proportion of the agricultural land not classed as arable could become arable and that , alos under pressure , more and could become agricultural. This is not an infinite possibility but panic is a long way off"
"EuropeanOpinion - Thank you for your reply to me.
You say that Green is being guarded, that infact was my first instinct on reading the article and I was at first going to reply along the lines that a debate that actually looks beyond the catch-all word, 'immigrant,' would be a good thing.
However, on second reading I was rather less convinced by the article. Green identifies a number of specific categories of immigrant and a core problem that nothing is being done. That could be being guarded or it could be, as I suspect, a cop-out.
Indeed, Green goes a step further and says, 'Nobody is suggesting repatriation of any kind.' This is great as far as it goes which is almost nowhere. It is the MigrationWatch version of shouting, 'something must be done.'
I think it is good that Green identifies what he calls, 'a necessary starting point in the policy process,' and I would agree with him on the idea of third world immigration being that start. But a starting point is not a coherent set of ideas to meet a goal, still less a policy. I agree with Green's sentiment, but then there is no substance in the article to either agree or disagree with. I don't think he is being guarded, simply because there is nothing to guard."
"_AT_waterloosunset
Oh dear. Sucks to be you, I guess. I think this time I will call you a racist. And I'll stop engaging with you."
"Am I supposed to be impressed?
We need to get rid of the causes of emigration i.e. capitalism and economic imperialism, whether that's Shell ripping off the people of Nigeria or western arms dealers selling arms to repressive regimes, also the first people to suffer from world recession are those countries already at the bottom of the heap, just like the first people to suffer from the bankers criminal actions are those poorest in Britain.
Kicking out immigrants will not make an ounce of difference, the poor will still be poor and the fat cats will still be taking their bonuses, this constant talk about immigrants is just to stop the poor thinking about the £134 billion plus needed to rescue the capitalist economy. The bankers are only too happy seeing the poor in Britain blaming poor immigrants for all the economic woes, it means that we are not attacking the people who are responsible for this economic mess in the first place."
"It's ridiculous that whenever immigration is talked about there's always people shouting ""racists!"" and everybody starts debating what's racism. This is just counterproductive.
These people have all missed the point. The majority of people are not concerned what race these immigrants are; they have real concerns about the strain that's being put on NHS, schools, policing and the benefits system with a ever rising population due to Labour's mass immigration policy.
Labour has created this mess yet they have no idea how to sort it out."
"I'm astounded at the premise of this article. Did you really expect anything else from McShane? Have you read his previous Cif contributions? They read like bad science; determine the outcome and then adjust the evidence to fit. Government isn't about the opinion of the electorate anymore, it's an ideological marketing exercise. The ideology says they want immigration; debate closed and you will be ignored and smeared as necessary.
Nu Labour in particular don't do public consultation. Their idea of listening is to find out what they need to say when they tell the public that are wrong.
Did the listen over the wars? Did they listen over Lisbon? My favourite example is regional assemblies. After being panned in the North East over ELECTED regional assemblies, they took that as a green light to carry on with the UNELECTED regional assemblies. The fact you are getting regional assemblies as dictated by the EU and enacted by Labour was never under question, the vote was a sop to consultation.
Do you seriously expect them to listen over this issue? Do you understand the level of contempt this government has for it's people? A government that was elected on a blatent lie in it's manifesto?"
"TomHarrison

Thankyou for your reply.
I did end with ""(by we I mean us as a nation)....""
I fully accept your point about neo-liberalism. So, as a nation, overall we benefit - it is us who get the cheap goods etc etc.
The problem is that those of us that benefit the least from neo-liberalism (people from the areas you mention, the low paid, unemployed) are the same people who feel the most under pressure (jobs, housing etc) from immigration (generally speaking).
In my opinion, we have a system that perpetuates poverty in the developing world - this increases the number of people who wish to migrate to where wages are better. The same system also perpetuates poverty here in the UK, and elsewhere.
Neo-liberalism is an elitist project that craps on us all. It's time we had a global economy that was run for the benefit of ordinary people the world over.
I strongly believe that for the debate about immigration to be resolved, properly, we need to look at the whole picture. Immigration isn't the issue (if we're talking about jobs and housing for instance) - neo-liberal economics is the issue."
"_AT_PD
_AT_waterloo. the potential to kill lies in all groups, not just black as your comment about knife crime suggests?
Importing people from war- torn and backwards countries can never be a good idea whatever the colour. Its a sad and tragic situation when we can no longer decide who enters our home."
dukeofmarlborough the tragedy in what you write is that you appear to honestly believe in it. What would you do if the population doubled in 50 years not from immigration but other reasons ? As if poor housing were the fault of immigration. Massively overpopulated you say? How would you ever know this? Britain ranks 60th in population density whilst some countries much higher up the ranking have better public services and housing solutions. The biggest resource of any society is its people. Your arguments are anti human in that you see people as a problem and not as a resource having something to give. Where is your humanity sir?
God, this thread's getting tedious. It's like being being stuck in some kind off greyscale, ill-informed Groundhog Day. I'm only still here because I want to see how long it is before Mr Race-Replacement Blood-and-Soil Mentalist turns up in his latest incarnation, resplendent in his Anglo-Saxon tribal tweed and smelling of piss.
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"Just looking at the number of immigrants accepted by countries and then population density:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population
we come 9th in the immigrant population list, and 51st in the population density list (populated mostly by smaller countries and islands), that's 2nd highest combination in world apart from India (who already have 1 billion people)
Belgium and Holland have similar proportions of immigrant populations though and they are a similar population density to us."
"_AT_nottydave
You are right, but a 'global economy that was run for the benefit of ordinary people the world over' is well outside what's in our power to bring about. We are an insignificant bit player, albeit consistently on the winning end.
That leaves the brute reality that (in a global sense) market liberalism is the only game in town. By the rules of that game, we are too affluent already to be a manufacturer again, since we'll always be undercut by places with cheaper labour. So we adapt or die.
That's why the 3 main parties are all global in outlook, and why they disregard decaying former manufacturing regions - because there's no choice. There's no way to turn the clock back and at the same time maintain anything resembling the lifestyle we enjoy here in the UK.
I'm hesitant to blame Thatcher or Labour for this - rather it seems to be to be a natural progression from advances in communication and transport technology."
As opposed to the entirely rational "we can carry on exapanding and consuming forever, nothing to see here, please move on" approach?
posed the cynic
waterloo sunset if people did not have the freedom to migrate you would not exist or maybe you hate yourself?
"Oh, whatever, haardvark.
Nobody here is coming close to saying ""we can carry on exapanding and consuming forever, nothing to see here, please move on"" - apart from global warming deniers on other threads - and your dumb-arse claim that somehow, somebody is on this thread merely underscores why it has become so fucking pointless."
"_AT_Benulek
Thanks for the much-needed snigger."
"I absolutely love it when people start talking about Britain's supposed lack of population density but conveniently manage to gloss over the fact that England has the highest population density in Europe.
The other thing of course is that if people who live in this country do not want their country to be more densely population then why the hell should they put up with it just to assuage the post-colonial guilt of a few people on the soft left.
Serious left-wingers must be concerned about the effect on public services and the people who already live here."
"FreemanMoxy

Not sure if Mr Race Replacement is here yet... but glad to see you are here as the latest incarnation of the ""Mr Anybody-Who-Disagrees-With-Me-About-Immigration-Is-A-Nasty-Wacist""."
Should internal migration restrictions be placed on Scots, Welsh and Nornoirish?
OZKT29B so you think "market liberalism" will continue forever? Its demise is as certain as its birth. The question is whether the resulting catastrophes can be minimised. You cannot evade your responsilbilty to the future of humanity by blinding yourself to the very real dangers that face humanity that are the fellow travellers of "market liberalism" namely fascism, war and now climate change.
"dukeofmarlborough dukeofmarlborough
29 Mar 2010, 1:35PM

I think there is a lot in that. I think people are less intimidated than they used to be about what they say. The reason for that is that people like someof the commentators on CIF have labelled almost everyone but themselves or those that have a very narrow view either side of theirs as racist. They have basically debased the currency of political discourse in this area. Add to that a sort of backlash that comes from having to ""watch what you say"" for too long and then finding out that it's ok to say what you think. On top of that you habve the phenomena that most us or even large numbers of us have friends, workmates and neighbours that are non-white. They know that they aren't racist and are pretty secure in that knowledge. That allows them to ignore the jibes.
The BNP is quite small. It's support is limited. Not even all the people that vote for them are racists. The support for avowedly racist policies in the UK is tiny and yet some on the left seem to think there is a racist round every corner. Some of those that think that are genuinely deluded. Some though have a job to protect in the industry built around discovering racism and manufacturing grievances."
"OZKT29B
I get what you're saying, though I suspect there are real alternatives, given time and effort, to merely accepting market liberalism as the only way to be.

Maybe, maybe not.
Personally though I am unable, and unwilling, to look at our own well being and not look at the well being of those whose cheap labour we exploit. The two are interlinked and as such I think it is a bit rich for us to complain about foreigners coming here when so much of the cheap stuff that we consume is made by foreigners, who have a far lower standard of living than us.
We can't have it both ways."
"_AT_juliuzbeezer 11:22AM

Oh great. Let's cram in another 70 million and all live on lettuce and goat's cheese.
The naivity of some people..."
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There are many among us who are wilfully blind. It's their secular religion.
"All this talk of available land for food production doesn't take into account the fact that the greater the population the more land they will need to build the infrastructure they and the more land that will be needed produce more food..
It also follows that this population increase will need to be provided with energy for heating and lighting so where do we get the oil and gas for that?????
Now I'm at a loss why the blindingly obvious is being ignored by the open borders types, personally I don't want to live in an overcrowded, resource scarce country where people can't feed or house themselves.
Try another scenario where the population actually decreased, where housing became cheaper, where we were self sufficient in food and energy and because labour would be in short supply, wages actually increased.
This isn't a pipe dream it's what actually happened after the population was decimated by the Black Death."
"Very good article. I'm not sure I agree with everything Green has said but it is encouraging that he still chooses to engage in rational debate despite being branded a 'racist' and 'extreme right think tank' by the left.
As for voting for the BNP, I know a lot of people who were caught in 2 minds about what was better our of delivering a shock to the establishment or voting for a non-racist party. I despise the BNP but at least their success in the Euros demonstrated that it isn't entirely the case that we are at the mercy of politicians and we can do something.
I notice people taking some moral high ground. I won't ever vote for the BNP. But I understand why people do.
What I cannot understand is how any self-respecting human being could ever vote Labour after Iraq. Shame on you all."
"iruka
>>If you're trying to hide the real reasons immigration winds you up so, best to stick to a coherent set of rationalisations. People might get the idea that you just don't like bloody foreigners...
Did I say that? You have just proven the authors point. Anyone who says that there must be a valid reason to grant a person the right to work and live here is a racist in your view. It's madness to have millions of people who were born here out of work and import others to take those jobs. Force the locals to take a job they are able to do otherwise cut their benefit payments."
"monikorlerwinsky you might be surprised to know there are a few countries in Europe more densley populated: see this link
http://uk.mg.bt.mail.yahoo.com/dc/launch?.partner=bt-1&.gx=1&.rand=1arv0ib75d8fp"
"Err, and you didn't ""claim that somehow, somebody is on this thread""? I haven't seen any of your hypothetical individuals talking race-replacement.
I'm sorry but what's the point of posting to a thread only to say there is nothing to talk about. I could endlessly speculate about your motives as you do about others. However that simply becomes boring. The thread is only irrelevant if more people like you add to it.
We have a problem and need to either plan for the consequences of it or control it so we don't need to.
I don't need to call you a dumb-arse as your ""contributions"" speak for themselves."
"_AT_Toom

I like what you say - although I am now worried about the sniffle I have developed over the weekend..."
"Firstly I would like to think that whenever there is an immigration debate someone other than Andrew Green could be called forward to offer an opinion. I am sure there are hundreds of academics on the subject who can provide a sensible retort to positive immigration policies other than the scaremongering Green spouts.
It was intriguing to hear the Japanese angle here alongside the points about 'lazy unemployed Brits' . One notices in Japan that the Japanese clean the streets, work on the building sites and wait on you in the restaurants. Being a non English speaking Island culture, one could argue they have little choice because no one wants to immigrate there. I would suggest that it is because these employees get a living wage and don't see, amongst a culture strong on individual respect, that it should be a 'negative' to be a street cleaner as opposed to claiming benefits while you wait for your big You Tube ? X-Factor break to fame and riches.
The second thing, aimed at Sir Andrew directly. Who do you expect to pay the taxes that will provide for the welfare of the aging population if the population is not increased?"
"thfc123

I had noticed, but they are still a racist party. One of those MEPs, Andrew Bron is a self-confessed Nazi.
Nonetheless, I agree that the main parties have completely failed to address people's concerns about immigration, which are slowly turning to genuine anger.
Immigration is a serious problem, and threatens the stability of our society, but the BNP is NOT the answer. Pity Andrew Green isn't standing."
"And then comes haardvark :

Failing to note that I said I was awaiting the race-replacement nutter who usually descends on immigration threads - not that somebody already had. If you had been paying attention in the past, you would know exactly who I am referring to, and they are certainly not a ""hypothetical individual.""
See? Reading comprehension. I did it at infant school. Were you off sick that week?

They certainly do. My comment history is freely available to anyone here who wishes to see it. It shows that as well as flippant asides, I also contribute reasoned arguments and rebuttals (with facts) of other people's points.
I'm pretty confident about what my contributions (no need for scare-quotes, that's a pretty sad tactic) have to add to the thread, and to CiF in general. You however, are just making shit up and putting words in people's mouths. Being snide only works if you can back it up. I'm afraid that you can't.
I'll never convince you of that, but that's hardly the point. There are plenty of other people reading this thread, and they can make their own minds up."
"dukeofmarlborough

thank you for your honesty. I am sure many of the people sharing your argument share that view, but don't like to admit to it."
"waterloo
""Well its certainly not white English boys instigating this carnage despite being the majority in London.""
White English boys commit crime everyday of the year - I should know, I used to go to school with them.
We don't really associate the Isle of Wight with rape and child abuse and wife beating even though all 3 happen on that Island so I'm not sure why London youth violence is always brought us in these debates or is considered something representative of London or youth - it's a given that some of our kids are not the brightest sparks (pro tip: don't murder anyone where there are zillions of CCTV cameras around, boys) but then some of our adults engage in strange and violent behaviour as well.
Honestly, I've no idea why a child murders someone without even worrying about being caught (many of us will have done some petty shoplifting as kids - and felt as least some fear during and after) and spending 14 years in prison but it is a rare event and not much to do with this debate."
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"HowardD
""Oh great. Let's cram in another 70 million and all live on lettuce and goat's cheese.
The naivity of some people...""
It's hardly necessary to go to such lengths!
I like to think, however, that if, say, America underwent an environmental catastrophe we could and would take in our share of immigrants without the country falling apart. They wouldn't all have to live in London - we can weed out the red necks and shove them down in Dorset and Devon :)"
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People will do any job as long as it's paid well enough. Immigrants coming here and getting paid next to nothing for street sweeping and the like are actually preventing the wages of street sweepers from being increased. They are not enriching us at all; they are improverishing us by lowering our per capita GDP. This is why Britain's per capita GDP has actually, and astonishingly, fallen for most of the last decade. The immigrants are shutting down the normal process through which wage levels rise: employers being forced to raise wages to attract more people to do the job. This is also why inequality has risen despite its reduction being a government priority.
"Far from the case that no one wants to immigrate to Japan. The Japanese , simply, don't let them unless they have a realistic prospect of getting a job and can speak the language.
You can read here how only 3 out of 254 foreign nurses passed their exam this year.
A very sensible attitude, I would say."
"Quote
""MacShane seems to believe that addressing the facts of the case and proposing realistic policies somehow helps the BNP""
What a pathetic excuse, the political elite keep using this time and time again to avoid any discussion on immigration.
No wonder the BNP have been able to make some breakthroughs"
"I would report the comment above, except that it says far more about the insult to the Kinks' own personality, and their ability to engage in genuine debate than it causes offence to me.
If articulate people who can express an opinion and back it up = up-arsiness to some people, they really need to consider why they are bothering to come here at all. It's kinda what debate is meant to consist of.
Of course, if you wish to attack the substance of my posts - especially my considered opinion of you as a racist - then feel free to do so. I think you can't, and your pathetic post above shows that you're simply out of ammo."
"We need to put an end to mass emigration. Every year over the last few decades, well over a hundred thousand Britons have left the country for a variety of reasons, with the result that there are currently more than 5 million British people living abroad. Every young British who wants to go and work abroad should be made to pay back the full cost of their education, which was subsidised by the taxpayer on the understanding that they would pay back into the system later. Every British person who retires abroad should be excoriated for betraying their duty to support and protect British culture at home against the ravages of multiculturalism.
Obviously I don't mean any of the above, but I'm frankly disgusted by those who take their privileges for granted while whining about the far less privileged who come and work hard to maintain them in the manner to which they have become accustomed."
"_AT_KB

It is not a rare event in London now. Over 70 teenagers have been murdered over the last two and half years. That works out at one a fortnight.
What is truly staggering though is the demographic make-up of the assailants considering all the nationalities living in London. The odds against the same demographic group being involved in this carnage are too high to comprehend."
I was not referring to retrick's post, by the way. As that was not pointlessly offensive, just very silly and missing my points (again) by a mile.
Looks like the far left are out in force today spamming anti-bnp rhetoric, can anyone please define "racism" or better still point out a "racist" BNP policy?
"""Sorry, I must have imagined that ethnic minority children were hacking each other to death in London.""
I haven't read anything about that in The Guardian, so it can't be true."
"BeautifulBurnout.
Thanks for Griffins expenses details. Do you have a link for the Kinnock families ones please?"
"No, it's an issue close to the issue of inner-city deprivation. Quite apart from the previously stated point that these stabbings, by and large, have not been carried out by immigrants, but by the British-born. ""Black populations in the US"" are also not immigrants - although they suffer a fair amount of poverty and inner-city deprivation.
So it's not an immigration issue, and I am amazed that you still feel the need to hold the hand of someone who is desperately trying to conflate inner-city stabbings with immigration and chucking playground insults about as a substitute for argument, pal. Apart from anything, it's off-topic."
"waterloo
""It is not a rare event in London now. Over 70 teenagers have been murdered over the last two and half years. That works out at one a fortnight.""
""2008 saw 70 teenagers murdered in Britain, 29 of them in London"" according to the Times.
given the size of London's population it's a rare event
and as I've said before on CiF the ""trend"" will wax and wane pretty much regardless of any initiatives Boris etc undertake. Next year there will be slightly more or slightly less.
Drugs is a factor - I do not do drugs so whoever drug dealers get their money from it'll never be from me. I am not responsible if two rival gangs get into a turf war but it's inevitable under the current situation of huge numbers of recreational drug users in London needing to buy their gear from criminal elements."
At the heart of the problem is the little Englanders' failure to see past the amounts of melanin in people's skin. But thank god you have good company in countries like "no gaijins allowed" Japan and "whites only" Russia.
Mintaka bless you. The inhumanity and cruelty, not to mention the hypocrisy of those attacking immigrants appears to hold no limits. Are they seriously arguing that all the white Americans, Australians etc should be repatriated to Britain. Then we would have an overpopulation problem!
The three main parties in the uk have all stated they want turkey with its 72 million population to join the EU .This could well mean millions of turks coming to the uk seeking a better life.nobody seems to be talking about this important issue
Pairubu: Before you get too carried-away with Japan's immigration policy, it should be noted that it also allows for low-skilled immigration of Japanese-origin Latin Americans, Brazilians and Peruvians primarily (nikkeijin). Despite the fact they may look the same, they rarely speak much Japanese, and are generally found doing simple manufacturing jobs. (CF http://www.un.org/esa/population/meetings/IttMigLAC/P11_Higuchi.pdf)
The Bnp are a bunch of nasty racists. Unfortunately their immigration policy makes perfect sense.
"crusier112

neo-Nazi parties and their predecessors do not usually tell the truth about their real aims. They are made up of liars and fantasists with all too many hangers on believing that they are the representatives of the master race. You think Hitler told the Germans that he was going to murder 6,000,000 Jews , Gays , Communists and Gypsies? You think he told them he would invade much of Europe? That is not how these evil bastards operate"
"trow
""This could well mean millions of turks coming to the uk seeking a better life""
it's not going to be millions.
In theory everyone in Scotland could move to London tomorrow but they wont.
But if for some reason millions of Turks did attempt to come here the rules would be simply changed to stop them - there is no open door policy and nothing is set in stone.
15 million destitute French people couldn't arrive at Dover next year and be let in simply because we don't have the infrastructure to deal with them.
I'm not interested in a debate on EU law or whatever becuase it's just a hypothetical and wont happen so it's not worth worrying about at the moment."
"Having spent some time looking at the staements on Nick Griffin's MEP expenses it seems that he & Andrw Brons are claiming the maximums, but that none of it is illegal.
I think that I will wait for them to go the full twelve months and then publish their itemised bills, which seems to be the way that MEP's do things. So, for two months at least, it's 'nothing to see here, move along please'.
Thanks for the links though, but I still see no financial misdeeds or breaches of voter trust as great as those done by Labour, Conservatives or Lib Dems."
"FreemanMoxy

Well i'm glad that you don't think my post wasn't racist.... and equally glad that you are able come up with other arbitrary judgements and so can summarily dismiss it as ""silly"" instead : )

Children of immigrants, so i would say that it has something to do with immigration.
If people enter a society at the bottom rung, and look or behave in an identifiably different manner from the host population, i would say that this can be problematic for future generations of that society... as evident in Germany, and the US and South America through slavery.
So i would say that is linked to immigration and multiculturalism

as i said, i think ghettoised racial groups in particular societies is a problem that can arise through immigration, so i don't see that these issues are necessarily conflated.
Also i must say I find you're amazingly sanctimonious and sick-inducing sense of superiority very irritating : ), .... as evident here:

Well done you have realised that feelings against immigration or often exaggerated by a tribal kind of xenophobia, but i don't see why you think this gives you such amazing insight or the power to condescend at will.
Lots of people realise this but are still able to come up with ""informed"" opinions of their own.
""Silly"", to use one of your favourite modes of argument."
"I wouldn't bother too much about what guff comes from that crank MacShanes mouth, nobody on here believes anything he says.
But hopefully sometime soon the Guardian ed's will realise just how dire a person and a writer he is and stop commissioning the propaganda pamphlets he composes on one of several laptops in his office/garage.
And then come May 6th the people of Rotherham do the decent thing and send the filthy bag of poison packing."
meant "glad you don't think my post was racist"!!!
"""Having spent some time looking at the staements on Nick Griffin's MEP expenses it seems that he & Andrw Brons are claiming the maximums, but that none of it is illegal""
I seem to recall Nigel Farage explaing that it's not only legal , it's more or less compulsary for MEP's to claim the maximun allowances.
Of course, he might just be saying that."
"I understood exactly what you said. You made this statement:

I have not implied that any particular individual is on this thread. You are merely incorrect.
<no insult=""insult"" necessary=""necessary""> </no>
I've voted Libdem twice and Labour once and not at all in several general elections. I simply believe that our MPs should represent those who elect them and that remit does not include the needs of those who mostly for personal gain chose to come to the United Kingdom; the overwhelming beneficiary of migration is the migrant, it isn't for the weather.
Immigration is a contract between nation and would-be migrant, it isn't a right. If one side of the contract feels it's no longer in their interest then that's fine and that should be the end of the story without name-calling. The UK halting immigration is no more racist or xenophobic than a migrant chosing NOT to come to the UK is Anglophobic. It would simply be excercising a sovereign right in the interests of it's people if it decided it were no longer in our best interest.
I've worked abroad on that basis most of my working life, I've never once considered that my personal interests somehow trump the rules decided by my gracious hosts; even a host as frankly repellent as Saudi. I've also seen first-hand how the system is abused in the UK in the IT. Many of the ""skills shortages"" are nothing short of a total fabrication I'm afraid - there is no need to import Indian graduates to do basic ""C"" programming work and it's dishonest to advertise in an obscure publication at a ridiculous rate and then bleat to government to issue work permits due to lack of response. But there is a consequence to this in that those people absolutely qualified to do these jobs are displaced. That's a personal cost and a social cost that isn't factored into the headlines. As has been said already, during the ""boom"" years of Labour's government, GDP/person has fallen. You could argue that immigration has actually made us less productive, it isn't big and it isn't clever to increase total GDP with more people and then proclaim you are some kind of economic genius like Brown has. I'd argue it's effectively a decrease in productivity which ties into where you see the future. Having many children to do the farming instead of improving your productivity is the economics of the third world and it's no different if you breed them or import them.
It also isn't a level playing field in the EU; there are no reciprical opportunites for British workers in Poland for example, otherwise; a) presumably Poles would do the jobs and not come to the UK b) such work would not pay for a family or home back in the UK, whereas a Pole working in the UK could back in Poland (as well as qualifying for child benefits etc.). I'm a winner from this situation, I'm one of three people in the world qualified to do my job but I still have the humanity to remember those I went to school with who have to make a living in occupations most of the world would be qualified to do.
In other words immigration is highly unbalanced against the interests of most working people in the UK, yet the UK ""workers party"" continues to support this system. That is a real problem, if you can't accept this, then really, all you'll have left is your name calling and people will stop listening.
People vote BNP despite the racism for the same reason as the various, state-employed client groups vote labour despite a huge catalogue of disgusting actions up to and including the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people; self-interest and fear.
Neither case should be excused."
"Hayward
""neo-Nazi parties and their predecessors do not usually tell the truth about their real aims. They are made up of liars and fantasists with all too many hangers on believing that they are the representatives of the master race. You think Hitler told the Germans that he was going to murder 6,000,000 Jews , Gays , Communists and Gypsies? You think he told them he would invade much of Europe? That is not how these evil bastards operate""
I'ts a long time since I skimmed through Mein Kampf (it's appalingly written and you'd need dedication to read it all) but Hitler was remarkably open about his intentions. I can't recall his exact intentions re the 6m but he certainly advocating the destruction of the Slavic races, leaving alive only those needed as slave labour once Germany's lebensraum had been taken.
Perhaps the oddest thing about his book is that the West didn't take him seriously."
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"I think you'll find that there aren't. Because to discuss this topic at all is to invite accusations of racism. For example, when the MigrationWatch think tank was founded, there was an editorial in the Independent denouncing it as racist simply for choosing to discuss immigration at all! Academics have to be particularly wary, because they are often dependent on public financing for their research; and lefty students can easily organise personalised protests against them on the campus.
Notice that most or all of Green's fellow travellers, like Boothroyd, Carey, etc. are retired. None of them said anything about this when they were still in their jobs. Because they knew the Inquisition would have accused them of heresy and hounded them out. That tells you something about the McCarthyite thought control culture that has come to exist in this country.

This is the classic pensions pyramid scheme argument that has been debunked a thousand times, including on the MigrationWatch website. The problem with it is that the people who come here, supposedly to pay for our pensions, themselves acquire pension entitlements in doing so. Paying for their pensions therefore requires bringing even more people into the country, and so on ad infinitum."

"*sigh*
I was referring to one - obviously loony - much-banned poster, retrick. One poster. I really don't see how having a joky go at a lunatic like that is evidence of an ""amazingly sanctimonious and sick-inducing sense of superiority.""
And putting a little smiley face after that does not make it any less out of order, by the way.
I do not consider myself ""superior"", and ""sanctimonious"" is just a stupid insult thrown at people who are arguing about anything from a moral position. Was MLK ""sanctimonious""?
I am an articulate individual who cares about stuff and is prepared to argue the point. I also fucking hate racism and those who would try and justify it. Deal with it. This is not a high school popularity contest and frankly I couldn't give two shits what you may think of me, based on the tiny amount that you actually know about me. ""The power to condescend at will"". How condescending! How dare you presume to tell me how to argue my own points!

The one poster I was referring to goes waaaay beyond that, invoking and arguing a völkisch philosohpy (""folkish"" was one of his many usernames, at one point) that was the actual bedrock of Nazi racial theory and has, of course, since been utterly discredited.
I'm simply staggered that my one comment, taking the piss out of this single dessicated old fascist fellow-traveller, who is not even here today, has provoked such an extreme and obsessive reaction from you. I think this exchange has gone as far as it can usefully go. Any more, and I'll start to think you've got a crush.
Move on. There's a whole thread to debate."
Hmmm - that's pretty easy. Their notion of racial purity and hence their antagonism to racial mixing for one? their notion that me being half Bengali means that all my descendants not matter how small the Bengali blood is do not belong?
"gkelly
""Because they knew the Inquisition would have accused them of heresy and hounded them out. That tells you something about the McCarthyite thought control culture that has come to exist in this country""
Ah yes - how Michael Howard suffered at the hands of the inquisition. Poor sod was so hounded he became a lowly street sweeper...I mean leader of the Tory party and running for Prime Minster."
"What people fail to realise is that it is virtually impossible to effect significant change in migration figures by government diktat. The overwhelming determinant of migration movements is economic; people move to where there are jobs, and away from where there are not. In times of prolonged recession net migration has been strongly outward, and in times of boom, inward. If government passed a law banning immigration, or immigration over a certain number, economic strains would soon make themselves felt through labour shortage, and people relying on the NHS in particular would soon complain.
So, when politicians start saying ""we will slash immigration"", just reply ""pull the other one""."
Never heard of a more misogynist attitude than this apart from in certain middle-eastern countries.
"Comparing yourself to MLK is certainly the height of sanctimony.
The problem with arguing from a position of absolute morality is the same problem the religious have; it simply isn't tennable in the imperfect real world.
For all you bleating, one of the most profound lessons of living and working abroad is that most of the rest of the world is considerably more prejudiced/rascist/xenophobic than Britain is and will use it for self-interest against you at every opportunity. Through much of the world your politics is simply seen as weakeness to be exploited."
"zounds

I understand there are times, particularly when the economy's going well, that even unskilled immigration is necessary. But the way the government has done things has been inexcusable. Letting in a temporary guest worker is fine. Letting someone in who will gain a passport, then bring his huge family in and all get access to education, healthcare, pensions, ect is idiotic. If we operated a guest worker program like they did in the East German Gastarbeiter program the Cold War or countries like Singapore today it wouldn't be such a problem. Let them in when they're needed but rigorously enforce their temporary status.

Screw that, I'd rather we stay a wealthy country."
"MEP's are not required to publish expenses but a majority of parties do for the sake of transperency. Those vile sleaze merchants, the Conservatives, the Lib Dems and Labour voluntarily send their accounts to be independently audited every year and make them available online.
Thing is, for a party to start campaigning on an anti-sleaze platform. They should be expected to practice what they preach. While Griffin published his expenses, its from his own accounts and not an independent audit. So unless the BNP publishes their accounts from an independent audit, you cant just declare 'Nothing to see here' since there is something that is valid. We are paying their salary after all."
kenbarlow turkey will get full membership of the EU thanks to its help on the war on terror.president obama himself recently called on the EU to let turkey join as soon as possible.There is also plans for the ukraine with its 50 million impoverished souls to join the EU .The next few years are going to be very interesting
Won't happen. France will veto it because it's constitutionally obliged to hold a referendum that will be lost.
They manage it in Dubai, the UAE and Japan.
"I'm not saying I'm the Messiah, haardvark.
That's for others to say."
Etoiles: point of information: Dubai is in the UAE
"juliuzbeezer
29 Mar 2010, 11:22AM

.
.
Utter stupidity. The necessary water supplies, sanitation, transport, housing, health and education provision for a further 65million people ? Where is that to come from ?
You can go and live like a third world goatherd if you want to."
Mr. Green speaks politely, but seeing "third world" in the title betrays his real feelings. As a former diplomat, surely he knows the term is now both obsolete and pejorative. What he's really saying is that he doesn't want all these poor and nasty people in his country.
"Danai
29 Mar 2010, 12:37PM
"" Do you ever realize that much of the wealth in the west comes from the exploitation of these 3rd world countries from the west? ""
.
.
.
Do you also realise that many of these 3rd world countries' rulers have some of the best stocked bank accounts in Switzerland?"
"So lets have a referendum.
Thought we lived in a democracy ..."
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we have over 8 million unemployed in britain,and the reason why unemployed figures are far lower than we see them,its because this gov have set up different schemes to hide the true unemployed figures and the gov latest scheme--the employment and support allowance.thats been taking people off job seekers allowance and those on incapacity benefits,to lower the unemployed figures of those who are claiming job seekers and incapacity benefits,and to fool the public that unemployment is falling when the truth is,unemployment is rising fast.why do we need immigrants and asylum seekers,we have enough unemployed in britain.
"mynewteyesscrewtinny
thanks for that ; it helps my point. People knew Hitler's views but the Nazi Party did not go to the people with a manifesto commitment to invade most of Europe and to murder 6,000,000 Jews. Mein Kampf was a book , not a manifesto. Most electors , though unhappy with the status quo would have expected some control to be exerted on Hitler by more moderate voices. The catastrophe which followed was not what they voted for.
Likewise we know the views , public and private , of many of the BNP leading lights (darks ; that should be) and the manifesto does not reflect those views"
the tories have not agreed to let turkey into the eu,labour have and maybe the lib dems,but not the tories.
Very good article Sir Andrew. McShane, with his anti-British europhile obsessions cannot be trusted to speak for Britain.
"There you go again. Is ""immigrants and asylum seekers"" some kind of single entity to you?
Argue the pros and cons of immigration - but it's not a question of ""needing"" refugees; taking in refugees is a humanitarian obligation."
"Malarkos

I think you'll find that we have been welcoming people to our shores for more than just the last thirteen years.
And I think that if you think about it , unlikely as that may seem , there have been plenty of civil wars in countries with similar ethnic origins such as Ireland , Spain , Nigeria , Rwanda , Liberia , Nicaragua , Korea , so the idea that conflict arises solely as the result of an inflow of immigrants is simple minded."
"Consideration of immigration (and asylum) is only a part of trying to keep or even lower our unsustainably high population number.It is unsustainable beezer look at the OPT. Paying people to care for their children has only encouraged some people to have large numbers of children. No one should be having more than two unless they can fund their health and education themselves. It would not need compulsion just more for the first two and then very little or none.
We would have to limit the number of people coming from the EU and we would have to only pay for people to have two kids and no more. Unless these two things are dealt with the UK will have to have an endlessly expansionst economy and keep hold of all the resources we need by any and all means including military.
Vote for an unsustainable population and you are voting for war."
"Not true. William Hague said the following at the recent Chatham House debate:
""...I won't labour the point about Turkey. There is cross-party agreement I think for us to turn Turkey away from the EU would be catastrophic strategic error for European nations, but we are in agreement about that...""
This is a looming catastrophe for all of Europe. The effect of admitting Turkey to the EU will be the equivalent of all the third-world immigration we have experienced up to this point. It will provoke so much tension and bitter feeling that the EU itself will be blown apart and right-wing, nationalist parties will come to power all across Europe."
"From the vantage point of living in Canada for many years , each time I visit England I am very aware of the crowding notching up, and the overall quality of life falling.
When I stayed in my childhood home , there was no dawn chorus , replaced by the
traffic roar of the A51, the adjacent farm being sprayed by helicopter , jets taking off from Birmingham airport twenty five miles away. Could not see the night sky because of the light pollution .
Surely there is a peak population for good quality of Life? whatever the ethnic mix.
Most of us think that a good quality of life should be available for all with reasonable degree of equality , but the more the crowding , the more difficult this is to esure."
Sweet Jesus! Madam Curie?
"Why would anyone emigrate to a country where its next to impossible to get a job?
Articles such as the above are trying to turn immigration into an election issue in order to see the parties outbid each other with 'tough on immigrants' proposals.
Fortunately the main parties are afraid of alienating settled immigrant communities with populist racist proposals.
Otherwise ......."
"Always a very difficult debate. On the one hand, we are all hamstrung by our fear of being called ""racist"" and so skirt around real issues. On the other hand, the reason why the knee jerk reaction arises is because of so much racism past and present.
I was in a photo shop the other day and due to a glich with the machinery ended up there for well over an hour and a half. I was chatting to the owners (a married couple it turned out), partly to pass the time and partly to distract myself from the fact that the said glitch had occurred with the only copy of my wedding photos was in the said machinery (it was all fine in the end though).
A long and interesting chat. Turned out they were originally from Turkey. Three things stood out for me:
(a) They were genuinely impressed that I am a lawyer. A total lack of the usual attitude that being a lawyer is one small step up from a banker, but only interms of the order of the queue for the guillotine. In fact, I was roundly upbraided from the hesitancy with which I confessed (""A lawyer. You should be proud! An honourable profession...."").
(b) The strength of their feeling that ""immigrants"" should learn English but ""these days, ""they"" don't bother"". Again, I was mightly embarassed, but they were both quite adamant. Essentially their view was that if people move to the UK then they should try to assimilate, on the basis that the reason they came was eiter because they liked the UK or because it offered a better life, or both, and that in either case a decent degree of assimilation (particulalrly language) was the key.
(c) A ""tough love"" attitude to customer service. They were very kind to me and indeed all the customers I saw them deal with, but every now and gain someone would come in, ask for a passport photo and then copmplain the price was higher than the photo booth in the station. Always the same answer ""Well go to the photo booth in the station then. Its just up the road. Crap photos, but very cheap.""."
"""Denis MacShane seems to believe that ""nothing has changed"" in the immigration debate since the early 1970s. That is not quite right. In 1971, net immigration was -40,000: in 2008, it was +163,000. If it continues at about this rate the population of the UK will hit 70 million in 20 years' time, and then 80 million in the 2060s. No wonder public concern has mounted over the years""
Just to put the figures in context . Ireland with a population of 4 million had immigration of over 100,000 during the boom years. There were no riots on the streets, no ghettoization and no National Front or BNP equivalent.
Its obvious that certain insecure traditionalists like to beat the 'Immigration is a real problem' drum rather than enjoying the benefits of living in a multicultural society.
Could the mounting 'public concern' (if it exists) have anything to do with the tabloid anti-immigrant industry?"
"BB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party#Electoral_performance
35,000 votes in 1997 to 192,000 in GE. That was the kind of rise I was talking about. Not that it is by any means anything signficant. Its not it is still a tiny fraction."
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"Haward,
In response to your previous comment:
""I think you'll find that we have been welcoming people to our shores for more than just the last thirteen years.
And I think that if you think about it , unlikely as that may seem , there have been plenty of civil wars in countries with similar ethnic origins such as Ireland , Spain , Nigeria , Rwanda , Liberia , Nicaragua , Korea , so the idea that conflict arises solely as the result of an inflow of immigrants is simple minded.""
Firstly, at no point did I say that conflicts arise solely as the result of immigration. I said they often result (and have done, throughout history) because of ethnic/religious tensions. The two (or more) groups in the same territory that eventually go to war may be sharing the same space for a number of reasons; perhaps one group immigrated there, perhaps they didn't.
You are missing the point because it is not immigration per se, just different ethnic and religious groups living side by side. The vast majority of conflicts today civil wars, and they are being fought along ethnic and religious lines. To name a few of the most prominent off the top of my head;
-Russia/ Chechnya: religion
-Sudan: Religious and Ethnic (Arabs fighting Black Africans)
-Israel/Palestine: Religious and Ethnic
-Somali conflict: mainly Religious
-Iraqi internal strife: mainly religious
Of course, there are notable exceptions- the Farc/Government conflict in Colombia for example.
My simple point, which I must reiterate is very basic; lots of different ethnicities and religions in one area is, and has repeatedly been a source of disaster resulting in widespread death and turmoil. In some situations (i.e Balkans) such situations arose for historical reasons that were not chosen per se by the regimes there.
In the UK, the fact that so many different ethnicities and religions are living side by side is purely the choice of a government that wanted to try and conduct a utopic experiment: namely, to create a multicultural society. Problem is, that the same Marxists who created this mess didn't learn from the downfall of Communism and the reasons for it.
Both Communism, and Multiculturalism have the following in common: they are wonderful ideas on paper, but human nature (namely the deep seeded features of greed, intolerance and group mentality) necessarily mean that they are doomed to failure.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Multiculturalism will be the death of Britain as we know it. Luckily, we have not seen too much bloodshed yet, although undeniably 7/7 and the murder of over 50 innocent citizens is a sign of things to come. Ask Russia, if you don't believe me."
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"Malarkos
We have seen bloodshed. The deaths of all the youth in London alone could be seen as civil conflict in micro. We have always had gangs but it has all got much worse."
"Malarkos

my simple reply is that just as there are many conflicts which are fratricidal there are many instances of people of different origins and religions cohabiting peacefully. It is the entrance of ideologues playing on imagined grievances or even creating those grievances which usually causes the tension.

this is nonsense. Enoch Powell was one of those who encouraged immigration in the 50s ; he did so for economic reasons. Mrs Thatcher allowed many immigrants to enter the country. The idea that this is a New Labour Party plot is risible. It is a fantasy"
"Malarkos
""I've said it before and I'll say it again, Multiculturalism will be the death of Britain as we know it. Luckily, we have not seen too much bloodshed yet, although undeniably 7/7 and the murder of over 50 innocent citizens is a sign of things to come. Ask Russia, if you don't believe me.""
I don't believe you and the inhuman barbarity that Putin visited on the Chenyans has nothing to do with multiculturalism.
Did you notice any decrease in IRA bombings Britain after a negotiated settlement and peace process in the north of Ireland? Isn't the largest minority in Britain those of Irish descent?
Do you suggest they are all repatriated or worse?
That would appear to be your drift.
Do you think if the UK kept its nose out of Iraq and Afghanistan that 7/7 would have happened?"
Germany and France did, yet both have been and are targets for terrorism.
"Immigration did indeed begin for economic reasons in the 50s and 60s. However, I don't think anybody can reasonably deny that there has been a burst of mass immigration into the UK in the last 10 years. And no, I'm not talking about the offspring of immigrants that arrived here decades ago, I am talking about entire areas that fifteen years ago were majority British, where today you would be lucky to hear English spoken, let alone see a Brit walking the streets, as a result of mass legal and illegal immigration, often from third world countries, as was pointed out in the article above.
Another aspect of immigration that has to be addressed (wow, this will get me an ear-blasting on here), is that while certain groups of immigrants actually outperform the white, indigenous population of Britain, others continue to fail miserably, whether it be in terms of unemployment, poor performance at school, criminal activity etc.
I suggest you go and take a look at the Office for National Statistics figures, and also read the House of Lord Select Committee Report on the Economic Impact of immigration (from 2008, I believe).
The overall picture it left of immigration, and one that I subscribe to, is that talking of ""immigration"" as a whole is, by and large, pointless. Different groups of immigrants (separated by nationality, religion etc.) have contributed to the UK in vastly different ways since they arrived here- some positively, others not so much."
"thfc123
Germany didn't and telling Muslim girls and women what they can and can't wear is the first step on the road to yellow stars."
Slippery slope arguments are always dodgy, and especially so when they exemplify Godwin's Law.
Andrew Neather says it isnt and Andrew Greens FOI request back it up
"I find it disturbing when people can be labelled Racist for questioning or talking about immigration in to this country. Its a real issue for white people whom always get the tag of racist if they dare to talk about immigration.
I myself being a British Moslem can talk about the negative effects of immigration in to the U.K and will not get labelled. If a white person was to , he would be labelled racist.
They are playing us all."
"_AT_Gkelly

Right, and the 2nd coming of Christ can't be far behind. Is that really how you see the near future unfolding? Predicting events is always tricky, but in this instance I'll pretty much guarantee that your doomsday fantasy won't happen when Turkey join the EU. Believe me, you may as well worry about something else.
_AT_Malarkos

No it isn't. As has been pointed out repeatedly on this thread, the immigration we have seen is directly a result of the economy transitioning from local to global. In simple terms, finite capital equals disproportionate capital in places like the UK; in turn this means movement of people towards capital.

No they weren't. I'm not sure what this obsession with apocalyptic scenarios is coming from. There may well be legitimate concerns about immigration that need to be addressed - the article here, and the Denis MacShane one it responds to, both acknowledged as much. But end-of-days fantasies are not a useful contribution."
"zounds:

The BNP are no more racist than NuLab who have spent the last 13 years discriminating against native Britons, whilst secretely plotting to change the demographics of the UK in order to implement their policital ideology. I'm afraid it's too late now to complain that native Brits are now voting for a racist political party when immigrants have been doing the same for years, and will continue to do so in the next election."
"Spoutwell writes:
Just to put the figures in context . Ireland with a population of 4 million had immigration of over 100,000 during the boom years. There were no riots on the streets, no ghettoization and no National Front or BNP equivalent.
---
First of all, Ireland has a pretty low population density compared to many other countries.
Secondly, what you write is not true. The last time I was in Dublin, the stories I heard about abuse against the Poles and Nigerians (from Poles and Nigerians AND Irish) did not give me the impression that I was dealing with a bunch of angels. Nice try but you are delusional."
"""No they weren't. I'm not sure what this obsession with apocalyptic scenarios is coming from. There may well be legitimate concerns about immigration that need to be addressed - the article here, and the Denis MacShane one it responds to, both acknowledged as much. But end-of-days fantasies are not a useful contribution.""
Who is talking of ""end-of-days fantasies""? I merely pointed out my belief that 7/7 was the first instance of Islamic terrorism on British soil, and in the future more attacks will take place, probably with greater frequency. How on earth is that apocaliptic or unrealistic? Several plots to cause mass destruction on UK soil have thankfully been foiled, but how long until another one succeeds?
And need I point out that Faruk was racicalised (and radicalised others) on the campus of one of London's leading universities at the Islamic society, two other members of which were also convicted of separate terrorism-related offences?
If anything, it seems to be you that is (a) unrealistic and (b) putting words into my mouth by proclaiming my prediction of some kind of apocalypse."
"Oh, need I forget the Glasgow attacks, which thankfully could have been so much worse. So there we have it. Two Islamic terrorist attacks in the UK in the last five years.
If you have predicted that 20 years ago, people would have called you a nut. Puts it into perspective, really."
"It's down to the market forces that capitalists love: employers move workplaces to places where wages are lowest, and consequently workers move to places where wages are highest. In the end, the theory says, everything balances out.
In practice this also requires that the working week is shortened or lengthened to match the number of people available to do the work, so that no one is unemployed.
However, monetarists love the idea of lots of unemployed, as they enable them to keep wages down.
To match the excesses of international big business, we need international big government, who can adjust things so that no one needs to move in search of work."
Perhaps Mr McShane would care to explain why Labour is losing out to the BNP in such a spectacular fashion.
"I thank Mme. Cassiopeia9000 and Mssrs. BigNowitzki, MonikerLewinski, Rippleway, HowardD, and greymatter for their considered remarks. Not to omit mention of the prolific (and non-profile owning) M. haardvark.
I am flattered they consider my remarks as so worthy ,of refutation. No reaction, no traction.
My source for the agricultural data was the CIA world factbook, readily checkable online, plus some personal communications/experience over the years. Forgive the superificiality of such a ""back-of-the-envelope"" calculation. This is a newspaper not a textbook. I did hope to stimulate debate on the issue which at least accords with the laws of physics. Please do crosscheck references and link to any results that would contradict the basic thrust of my arguments.
All the other matters discussed are chiefly aesthetic in nature if we accept M. Rippleway's assertion that the population of the UK did indeed (just) survive the second world war, despite the hostile naval blockade.
Bare survival is a legitimate quantum of scientific debate I hope all can agree. Beyond that be the unpredictable dragons <cornish accent=""accent"">of aesthetics, of moral and political philosophy, and even... metaphysics not to mention nutrition and agricultural practice etc etc</cornish>"
Perhaps Mr Scodman would care to explain when the last BNP member was voted into the UK parliament?
"There needs to be an engagement of this issue from the two main parties. Their reluctance to do so so far is cowdice.
If we see a double dip recession then we will see civil unrest.
Many working people have lost the rights that were won by the trades union movement and thise deprted to Australia by the open door immigration policy.
Only 2 % of failed asylum seekers have ever been deported. This is terrifying.
I can now employ a labourer legally, paying tax etc for less than I paid in 1988.
We have allowed human trafficking and benefit fraud to rocket. We have allowed massage parlours to flourish.
The worry is that soon, a Gerry Adams type figure will emerge. Who will consolidate all this anxiety take over the debate.
There is obviosly NO benefit from the enourmous numbers arriviung by the hour at the moment.
So why is it happening.
Weakness, exploited by criminals, the greedy and lazy.
And the poor legitimate asylum seeker is lost in the flood.
Very Un English"
"Malarkos - Well given that the early attacks on the World Trade Centre were in 1993 I don't think that Islamic terror attacks on the West was quite so fanciful 20 years ago. This is not to mention the various hijackings etc.
Of course in my short life I have been bombed 4 times by the Irish and twice by the muslims. But I guess that the Irish are not a good stalking horse for your point?"
"I have read countless articles on immigration in the UK and one thing never fails to get my attention. The comments some people give. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I never fail to see at least some that claim the following.
(To set the record straight, I am a non-EU migrant, so I am very 'well versed' in this area and my views would be concerning only non-EU migration to the UK)
1: Immigrants come here for benefits.
There is none basically. If you are non-EU on work permit, student visa or post study work, 'No recourse to public funds' is printed on the visa.
2: It is easy to come in and exploit loopholes.
Over the past 5 years, they have been systematically closed up. Go to the home office website and see if you qualify to enter or stay in the UK on Tier 1 (highly skilled migrant) category. You need to be earning way above national average wage to qualify.
3: Immigrants come here and take all our jobs... 'whines'
Do you know one difference between the immigrant and the whiner? The immigrant is willing to travel and work in a completely foreign environment, sometimes hostile. The whiners are so contented or lazy and prefer to stay put instead of moving to another place to work. I'd say a generation of economic growth and excess has spoilt the young. They no longer make sacrifices but prefer to stay in comfort, on benefits.
4: The immigrants push down the wages!! ahhrghh!
Do you want cheap goods and services or not? That said, some jobs would even not exists if not for immigrant labour. Because some jobs are just not possible to be done at a higher cost! A minimum wage job is the way it is because inherently it is low skilled, so if you want to avoid it, then bloody educate yourself! (which brings us nicely to the next point)
Sometimes I do not understand are the Vicky Pollard types. I mean, people in 3rd world countries wold literally sell their soul to be able to have free primary and secondary education. You have a good infrastructure here, make full use of it! Instead we have lazy unmotivated teenagers. (I want to stress that I am not painting everyone with the same brush here, I know the majority are hardworking and smart)
So, stop whining, make full use of whats available, educate oneself and compete with the world! Look at how competitive education is in East Asian countries. Parents sell their homes to pay for higher education, extra classes at night etc etc. Nobody can afford to stay still. The world is moving fast.
5: Why are we so open? Why nobody goes to Japan, S.Korea, China?
SImple. Can you speak Japanese? Chinese? Korean? Erm... Maybe not. The British pride themselves that English is the international language. However, the side effect of that is people have no problems coming to the UK and communicate effectively. I mean, you have got to accept that conquering half the world is going to have some side effects don't you?
You could also argue that even if you know Japanese, you ain't going to get a visa there. Fair enough, good point. But lets say the Japanese government introduces an open door policy but on the condition of entry only on a sufficient level of Japanese language proficiency. Are you seriously going to learn Japanese the next day?
People in third world countries have English as a compulsory language in school. Until you do that, it ain't going to work.
I'd say, immigration is being used as a big huge scape goat for everything from employment, housing, crime...blablabla..
The UK can either embrace change and go forward or get stuck and go backwards."
"Haward,
You are right, that the book wasn't the party manifesto, but these bits of it come fairly close to declaring their aims,
3 We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.
4 Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.
18 We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
Anyone voting for that should have understood that 'etc' (ie anything) could be punished with death.
I haven't read the bnp's yet, but I doubt if it is as frank as the above."
"You have to work the idea of enforced multi culturism and why. Interbreeding is
The theory is that in time there would be no races in this country as everybody would look exactly the same, so no such thing as a coloured person or a foreigner.
All of us would look like pea's in a giant pod, or the same as ants in a giant nest.
That is the logical outcome."
"Sisong
Anyone that thinks the Irish are a bunch of angels is delusional - I should know I am one.
I pointed out that the apocylptic scenarios painted by every anti-immigration demagogue didn't happen in Ireland. Population density is a complete red herring. The US has only a fraction of the UK's population density yet has had a history of racism, intolerance of immigrants and slavery - compared to Canada which hasn't.
Un-nice try, though delusional.
As regards Dublin - 'culchies' (those from the country) always got abused by Dubliners in the same way as Londoners get abuse from Liverpudlians (in Liverpool). If immigrants didn't get the same treatment (which I deplore) that would be a case of heaven on earth."
"AllyF
I don't think people use a vote for the BNP as ""blackmail"" in this debate. That would presume that they had the upper hand in this debate when you'll forgive me for saying the evidence is all around us that they don't. Furthermore, people have been until the last 5, even 2 years, genuinely frightened to discuss this issue openly for fear of the accusations of racism that would follow and still do. People are turning to the BNP because the mainstream refuse to listen and more importantly for them refuse to do anything about it.
I think people should accept that there is a large and increasing groundswell of opinion against any further immigration. I think this should be respected and heeded."
Oh, and I thought it was an excellent article and a worthy riposte to Mr Macshane.
"fairer
'enforced multiculturalism' ?
So that explains all those mixed race couples."
"Spoutwell? Yes you do ...
Honestly, what are you on about?
Population density is a complete red herring.
I mean, seriously, the world's population has doubled in the last 30 years and you go around making comments like that?
Ever wondered why its Mexicans trying to get in the USA, and not the other way around?
Or why its Nigerians going to Ireland and not the other way round?
Or why its Pakistanis trying to get into the UK and not the other way round?
Pleeeeese ...
You then write:
The US has only a fraction of the UK's population density yet has had a history of racism, intolerance of immigrants and slavery - compared to Canada which hasn't.
Are you not aware of the history of Canada and its indigenous peoples?
Apparently not ....
Give up - you're cluttering the ether ...."
"Beezer
Although you might just possibly be a genius. The Optimum Population Trust have studied all of this and some very top minds in their fields disagree with you. They say that our sustainable population is less than 30 million. More than that and we have to go to war or make horrible compromises to keep mitts on the resources we cannot do without. The way we live and have no choice about takes a lot of energy. Whoever you are land on these shores and you are resource expensive.
And Spoutwell we should insist on the ""right"" to walk aound Mecca at all and then in
cheeky girl shorts? And have coffee with workmates of the opposite sex in public in Saudi? If not why not? House rules are house rules and for us covering the face is breaking a house rule. Perhaps all those Russian lives would have been spared if the black widows had been discouraged from total literal self effacement. Taking women out of public space literally or figuratively makes the public space dangerous. Nothing to do with ""yellow stars"". It is rather the opposite. Discouraging
covering the face discourages a very unhealthy self obsessed perversion that is dangerous to other people. It does not denote a healthy mind."
Perhaps you would care to explain when the last BNP member was voted into the EU parliament, what their vote was and where it came from.
"BRITISH TAX AND IMMIGRATION POLICIES ESSENTIAL SURVIVAL
The failure to provide tax policies that nurture strong families and meritocractic immigration produces aging and territorial invasions by aliens."
We are overpopulated already we do not need more immigrants and those here illegally must be removed its as simple as that and if this is not done the BNP will go from stength to strength and civil disorder will follow along with elected MPs from the BNP and the like.
"Far from it. It is just I have always detested being lied to, and adore scholarship.

I am most grateful to you M. gracedarling for the reference, and will inquire further. If the thread is still open I will happily share the results here, or more probably, given the time constraints of participation in CiF, on my personal weblog.

Erm, have you heard of ""trade""?

On consomme qu'on consomme. Il y a des choix dédans ma brave. Pensez vous, et bonne courage mes chers amis."
"BRITAIN REJUVENATED BY DARWINIAN IMMIGRATION POLICIES
Britain is still in a position to recruit the cream of the crop from East Europe, to compensate for it present aging population; thereby allowing Her time to restore the fertility necessary to restore the highest social, economic, and military standards."
"Darvinia _AT_ 29 Mar 2010, 9:16PM

Spoken like a true fascist."
"I see we have devolved into copy and paste jobs to try crap up the discourse once again.
Just post ""DEY TERK OUR JERBS"" . It saves a lot of hassle."
"greymatter

Presumably from the same place as the water supplies, sanitation, transport, health and education for the first 65 million. You do realise that Britain hasn't always had 65 million people, right? It isn't some magic number that is the holding capacity of the island, above which it would sink beneath the waves. A hundred years, there were only 30 million people. Still, the water and housing and transport and all that could be found for an extra 30 million people over a 100 years and, shockingly, living standards have actually improved in that time. And now Andrew Green is panicking because, if trends are extrapolated linearly, then the population will grow by another 30 million in the next 100 years. Do you think he'd been panicking just as much if the growth was natural increase among the right sorts of people?"
"In the past 18 years since I have lived in London it is very clear to me that the numbers of immigrants living here has dramatically increased and that there are many numbers of illegal (economic) migrants. This has caused and continues to cause stresses on public services. It is very clear to me (as an non national but EU citizen) that this is all now coming to a head. I cannot think of any other country in the world where the native population would welcome finding itself in a minority in large areas of its Capital City, yet this is happening and has happened.
I do not see much difference between imperialists who went around the world to take advantage of the economic benefits of colonisation and immigrants who come to take advantage of social security system and public goods (which were designed for a smaller, more homogenous population).
Surely both types of migration are exploitative and in both instances, it is the poorer members of the host country who are most affected. A laissez faire approach by right wing politicians (globalisation keeps unit cost of labour down) and left wing idiocy (an assumption that disparate groups - cultural, racial, linguistic, ideological etc ) can easily integrate without friction are equally to blame in this major and very illconceived act of social experimentation.
There should be major restrictions on non EU migration and a much greater effort to educate and train th resident population to fill whatever job categories are likely to be required in the next decades."
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"RudiGunn

Perhaps you would care to explain why we need to adopt and implement the policies of the BNP in order to prevent the BNP coming to power and implementing their policies? If people want to vote for the BNP, let them do so. They will get 1 or 2 MPs at most , which will be embarrassing for a couple of constituencies but irrelevant to everybody else."
"AlfredTheGreat

We quake in our sandals."
"MIntaka
We are heavily reliant on imports that take energy to bring in. We rely on resources from other parts of the world so that we may live as we do.Over 90% of our fruit is imported. It is trade not ""stealing"". But what do you think Iraq was about? We were and still are to a lesser extent reliant on oil from the Gulf (and no one thinks/thought Russia having total hegemony over all the oil in Iraq was a bonzer idea) Now the oil leases are shared.
Water is finite. To access the water that falls there has to be land that is not concreted over.
There is a sustainable number. The OPT has spelled it out in detail. At the current state of technology the highest sustainable number is less than 30 milion.Jeez we nearly starved in WW2 with everyone digging for victory. Now factor in peak oil.It only has to get expensive not run out."
"_AT_Andrew Green
You make some interesting points. I have two questions for you -

Could you provide evidence that public concern has been mounting over the years please?

Could you give the source for the 70-80% please?
Thanks."
"You mean that ""third world"" that you ripped apart with your bloated visions of grandeur. That third world that paid the price of European wealth through slavery, disease and death.
Well, I'm sorry if Karma doesn't suit you well, but I guess it's time to pay the price.
Let's see what happens when Iraqi people start flooding into Britain. The third world is always a nuisance when it knocks on your door, isn't it? At least it knocks. Your stupid empires just kick the doors open, start shooting and ask questions later."
"Bwahahahahaha.
BNP supporters cry more and sulk like a child when things don't go their way. At least they are consistent about that.
Welcome to politics sunshine. I look forward to more salty tears in the run up to May."
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"Reading some of the comments in here makes me wonder what planet they are living on. We are virtually bankrupt with massive national debt, a jobless recovery that well dip and throw is into another recession, massive employment and underemployment plus massive cuts in public services no matter who gets elected and you still want to keep the doors of the country open?
What is going to shake them back to reality? Serious social disorder? I think when this does happen the advocaters of no borders will take full benefit of what they believe and emigrate to where there won't be any trouble."
"In 1971 net migration was -40,000 because, well, why would they?
More recently UK has been seen as a land of economic opportunity and it's quite true that the immigration of the last decade, if sustained, would lead to a rather high (some would say over-high) population level.
But don't worry. The UK is no longer perceived as a land of economic opportunity. I'm sure there would be net out-migration already if it weren't for the inbuilt lag factor of deposits on flats, children at schools, etc.
Soon the floodgates will open and the migration will go in the opposite direction. The question is, how much nastier are we prepared to let things get before this trend is assured?"
"mountgomery
Yes the West has been guilty of keeping millions alive with modern medicine and agriculture. You do realize that most slavery then and now is inter tribal and sold on by Arab slavers? Read some history.
Africa and Arabs are very far from innocent thorughout the centuries but the UK was in the forefront of abolition. Modern slavery still takes places in a lot of Africa and Islamic States from child slaves in Yemen to child brides in say Afghanistan which is modern slavery.
And as far as ""disease"" what do you think life expectancy was before modern Western medicine? Like Swaziland 39 or Afghanistan after the Taliban 42 I should think."
I've read some total guff on CiF and that is right up there with the worst.
"Communicationalist _AT_ 29 Mar 2010, 10:56PM

I'm not so sure about that. Even though it is looking bad here, it is far worse where these migrants come from.
The ironic thing is that if there is social disorder, it's isn't going to come from hordes of rampaging native racists bootboy and other fantasies that gets imagined on here but between the incoming immigrant communities fighting for their rights to have a share of ever decreasing resources.
Will the natives join in? I doubt it, we had our day thirty years ago and were crushed by Thatcher and since then we've suffered nearly 3 decades of de-industrialization and the resulting economic and social problems that have went with it. We will be keeping our heads low and hoping for the best."
"mountgomery:

Like yours, my nose bleeds with shame; but first, we have a housing shortage."
In all the accusations of racism so far, the target of that racism has always been the immigrants. However, it is virtually admitted now that mass immigration has been used in a deliberate attempt at cultural and racial cleansing. As a means of eliminating any sense of a specifically English culture, an English heritage, an English identity. Governments of this country have form in such matters as in the efforts made to erase the Welsh identity and language in the last century. Though the basis of the government's antipathy in this case is probably good old-fashioned class bigotry - thinking of oneself as being English is regarded as common and primitive these days - nevertheless by targeting a particular race, this campaign is racist. And just to emulate some of the very unnecessarily labeling indulged on this thread, anyone who votes for racists is a racist.
"Sisong
""Give up - you're cluttering the ether ....""
Give up yourself. Good luck to any immigrants that could be bothered.
You use population density as an excuse for anti-immigrant policies. Its not.
Pointing out the obvious reasons for economic migration doesn't prove anything.
Like so many others opposed to immigrants your smug arrogance is your trademark."
"How can any rational debate begin with a ludicrous statement like this:

Why on earth would you assume immigration will remain at this rate, when the sentence before you've handily demonstrated that it fluctuates massively? I could just as easily point out from your own figures that net immigration has halved in the last year alone. Assuming immigration will continue halving every year, then, in approximately 16 years net immigration will be half a person a year. Easy, eh?
Pious calls to mature debate really don't sit well with such a juvenile approach to data."
"Japan has very low immigration. Foreigners are almost invisible in daily life. It needs immigrants in only one area, nursing care, and here too their numbers are very low. Most of the 'foreigners' in Japan are in fact Japan-born Koreans and Chinese who are indistinguishable from the local population except that the Japanese government will not give them automatic citizenship.
Japan is indeed proof that there is zero inherent need for immigration. So are South Korea and Taiwan."
"It's not just immigration, it's population. Human beings are becoming a planetary pestilence.
The population of Britain should be reduced down to 30 million within 50 years and further reductions after that. And I don't give a toss about the housing market crash and urban dereliction it may bring if negative population reduction is not planned. (Many of the new ticky-tacky houses won't last that long anyway: developer/speculating spivs have built in the obsolesence any way or they're built on flood plains)
There's just too many people on this island. And we don't need to attempt to close down the argument/discussion by accusing those who want firmly controlled immigration as 'racist'. Those who want un-fettered immigration are probably racist thenselves because they're likely to be ant-English: they want to stuff the cities so that the 'native' English become 'peasants' in their own country !"
"gracedarling
Saudi Arabia is an anti-democratic regime propped up by western powers to control the price of oil. If you want to set up a similar regime you won't find much support anywhere.
""Discouraging
covering the face discourages a very unhealthy self obsessed perversion that is dangerous to other people.""
If wearing a veil is 'perversion' what is covering one's face in tatoos and piercings?
If people are free to undergo surgical operations to have their genitalia removed why shouldn't people be free to wear a veil in public?
A free society is one which allows people to dress as they please.
"" House rules are house rules and for us covering the face is breaking a house rule.""
Maybe in your house."
My ancestors, working class Glaswegians, benefitted not a jot from Empire. They were ruthlessly exploited and virtual slaves themselves in appalling conditions. Gargantuan profis made quite literally off their broken backs. How dare anyone, whether from within the UK or elsewhere think I have a duty of care regarding the descendants of Empire when neither I nor my ancestors had any hand in it. Absolute bloody cheek! You're all too bloody soft about this issue because you're all too bloody comfortable and don't have to confont the reality of absorbing all these immigrants! Just bury your head in the sand because you're gutless and have no pride in your country or care about it beyond what it provides for you and think you can gain some pathetic kudos by affecting to be au fait with this country being turned into a colony for the devloping world. Well month after month reading this nonsense has finally got my dander up! Stop immigration now! I repeat: stop immigration now!
"Well i'm an immigrant, though with a historical connection (my family left scotland to go to the empire in the 1890's), we came back in the late 1980's, and i had no other connection to this country so count myself as an economic migrant.
With that in mind, i have no problem with immigration in theory, i believe in the free movement of Labour, so immigration is part of that. I also believe in the free movement of capital, but this i believe is problem for left of center voters (linked as it is with so-called exploitation of third world labour)
There does seem to be a contradiction on the left, Labour genuinely seem to want unlimited immigration, but they do not support hot capital movements, yet both are part of free market thinking. The left generally seems to want capital controls for cash flows, but no control on immigration, and this seems backwards to me, you should either accept both or condemn both if you want to be consistent.
There is one caveat to this. Money doesn't care where it goes, and money generally creates very visible jobs, and very few people object to more money in their economy, because no-one believes that it is the money who is keeping them unemployed. Swop the word money for immigrants and you get the opposite reaction. Why? Because people are emotional, and also money, in itself does not have an impact on local culture. People from different nations however do things differently, but put them on the same street and it will create tension. The left recognises that hot capital can be destabilising, but refuse to see that immigration can be as well, and then they do brand people racist when they bring it up. (I'm sorry, but they do). This creates resentment from those who are not racist but who feel belittled and slapped down by their own politicians.
If the left are for capital controls because free capital movement undermines economic stability, then they should also implement immigration controls for the reason that it undermines social harmony and cohesion.
I personally believe that free capital is essential, and therefore free migration is also beneficial, with the caveat (finally) that you allow your people to express how they feel about it, (even if some of it is a bit racist) and if they don't like it very much (even if this is economically a little unhelpful) then perhaps you accept immigration controls until people are happy to let more in, on the principle that the voice of the people is the voice of god. Otherwise you encourage extremism, and encourage ghettoisation, which leads to a social cost that more than offsets the economic gains, because emotional and angry people are not inclined to believe that they are personally gaining anything. Incidentally, i don't think it is irrational to be angry or emotional about this issue, which i think makes it more important to control immigration than capital."
"And not China ??
And not Russia ???
Silly billy..."
"Juliuzbeezer -
Your idea that Britain isn't overcrowded until all farmland is exhausted is ridiculous - with that theory, the world could support many times its current population, provided we don't mind turning Yellowstone, the Serengeti and the entire Australian outback into wheatfields. The objective is not to turn the whole planet into human habitat, wiping out every other large mammal in the process, but to have a balance, allowing an entire ecosystem to exist and keeping as much natural unspoilt habitat as possible. Britain is bursting at the seams, and a landscape of nothing other than farmland and cities is not the answer. Just because it is possible to feed over 100 million people in Britain doesn't mean we should. Fewer humans here - and across the entire world - is a good thing."
"_AT_Andrew

The time to bring immigration under control was over 13 years ago.
Treasonous money grabbers lead by international bankers have mostly financially destroyed the UK.
Bast#rds one and all."
"juliuzbeezer,
The CIA factbook gives a figure of 23.23% as arable land. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/uk.html

Mm, well it is worthy of discussion.

Accords with the laws of physics? Would you mind clarifying what, in your view, would be a refutation that ""accords with the law of physics?"" I mean I stink at physics, but I'll do my best - I'm just not sure what you're referring to.

You haven't actually countered anything I've said with data of your own. You've criticized the way in which I've argued your claims, and that's fair enough. Would you be able to give me something more than a ""back of the envelope calculation"" on this issue, which accords with the law of physics?"
"Rippleway

This is probably just a crazy Utopian idea, but apparently it is possible to build new houses. One of the major inputs needed for this, if rumours are to be believed, is labour. Materials too, but they aren't too expensive. And land, which is expensive. Which brings me to an even crazier and more Utopian idea. How about if the state appropriated a large share of the planning gain that accrues when planning permission is given for a change of use? This could help finance a lot of new building. But then, that would bring down the cost of houses, wouldn't it? And we certainly can't have that, oh no. What we need is expensive housing and someone convenient to blame for it."
"First anyone with enough sense to come in out of the rain ( which already eliminates half of the Liberals) knows that Britain is overcrowded with twice the net population density of China and the highest by far in Europe save for the tiny states of Belgium and the Netherlands, who sustain their density by being major cogs in European governance. ( For Isaac Asimov fans think of the fictional world of Trantor) Like Trantor their main product is bureaucracy and they require the exported produce of other nations to feed them. Britain likewise relies on the trickle down from the City of London to feed the Labour voting human slugs on welfare, and when the other shoe drops on the western worlds debt crisis, what trickles out of the city won't feed a starving field mouse. So why is the UK still following the Banksters program and exporting industrial jobs whilst importing more mouths to feed??
Because only Political parties like the BNP are like the little boy who dared say ""the King has no clothes"" and we all know we mustn't vote for them, They're ""Waycist!!"""
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"Any one concerned with how the UK government deals with asylum seekers should have a read of the Australian press of late : the media is in meltdown and the main political parties are facing off and calling each other soft over the arrival of a few hundred asylum seekers : its the same story everytime - a rickety boat arrives in Australian waters and the navy patrol will intercept them and all the boat people are shifted off to Christmas Island for processing - it is political death for any party that allows these 'illegal migrants' on to the main land for processing. After a few years in a detention centre about 75% of them are issued with visas so they can live and work on the mainland. On average Australia has processed 500 asylum seekers per annum for the last 20 years but it is a major political football as the population is very unforgiving of people who are seen to be trying to jump the immigration queue
Oddly, Australia is experiencing record levels of net migration and this is contributing towards the housing affordability crisis in the major cities as demand is outstripping supply . Thankfully , there is plenty of room for new housing estates a luxury not shared by the UK"
"The immigration ""debate"" is politically correct racism.
We are told that the island cannot take more people. Erm, that's dodgy because the European population has been declining.
We are told that the extra multitude ""puts pressure"" on public services. Well, call me cynical, but immigrants tend to be pushed into crap work (i.e. wage-slavery) and they pay taxes. It might be accurate to say that people doing the crap work are the ones under pressure, methinks.
So this latest article says that the problem is over-population from the third world!
Why don't people just come out with it.
That is the only way you will ""have a debate"". People keep calling to ""have a debate"" for decades. The reason that this cry is useless is because of the cunning disingenuous ""call for debate"" in the first place. One cannot debate with a riddler. Stop riddling, racists."
"Surely the population will continue to climb anyway, as a result of changing dynamics in birth/death rates? whether immigration is addressed or not, population increase and over crowding need to be planned for.
i do agree though that a sensible debate is needed on immigration, but this will only be possible if the likes of the bnp are kept well away from it."
"Look, what's preventing rational discussion of the immigration ""issue,"" so to speak, is that people are approaching it with the wrong motivations.
The fact of the matter is that any influx of labor, uneducated or cheap or otherwise, is bound to cause substantial shifts in patterns of employment, wealth, and education - and like any economic change, inevitably there are some people left out. Workers have to re-specialize or, if they're too old or unable to invest, accept a life of financially unstable retirement.
I think any anti-immigration stance that is couched in terms of ""protecting our national culture"" is based on an absurdity; culture is how you choose to act and think, not what history tells you to do or think. But to deny that large-scale immigration has significant, and yes, in some cases negative, impacts on constituents' economic situation is to be unrealistic.
Personally I think we should let the whole lot of them in, as long as being poor in the UK doesn't mean you have to starve or die of a toothache."
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"The crowded house fallacy
juliusbeezer's comment 06 Apr 08, 2:58pm
Land requirements of homo sapiens (sic) per person:
Strict vegan diet (tubers) = 300 sq metres Relaxed vegan diet
(varied)= 600 sq metres Vegetarian plus dairy = 1200 sq metres
Omnivorous = 2500 sq metres
23% of the UK's 241,000 sq kilometres are arable land = 60,000 sq km
[CIA world factbook]
1 sq km = 1,000,000 sq metres
There are 60 million people in the UK, so at the moment each has 1000
sq metres of land. Room for more vegans!
Plus, you can bung some sheep on the other 75%. Hmm! Haggis anyone?
***"
Britain certainly needs a lot of new housing, but all the housing required could be built on 1% of the land. The land area of the UK is 245,000 sq km. At 50 dwellings per hectare (which counts as medium density by urban UK standards), 2450 sq km would be enough for 2450 x 50 x 100 = 12 million homes. At an average of 3 persons per dwelling, that's enough for 36 million people. There is absolutely no need for any housing shortage in this country, and the one thing more than anything else that the UK government could do to improve the lives of the citizenry would be to build sufficient houses to eliminate that shortage. Why is no party offering to do it? (1) the selfish gits who own the countryside are extremely powerful, and will not abide plebs for neighbours, (2) they fear, reasonably enough, that a policy that reduces property prices will be a vote loser in Middle England.
"""...in 2008, it was +163,000. If it continues at about this rate the population of the UK will hit 70 million in 20 years' time, and then 80 million""
Nice attempt, nice author, nice attempt!
Next time you try to fool the masses with mathematical (and naive) fallacies, use a bit more effort. Please! This is so blatant, it offends my eye!"
"The problem with calling for the number of immigrants to equal the number of emigrants is that if you get a number of genuine asylum seekers, fleeing torture or death, that exceeds the number of emigrants, it would call for some of these people to be sent back to their deaths.
The other problem is that under the current system many thousands of people already ARE being sent back to torture or death in Afghanistan, Iraq, Zimbabwe, Congo and elsewhere. So it effectively calls for even more genuine asylum seekers, who should be being given refugee status, to be sent back to die.
I don't call that reasonable or balanced. It shows the people who've signed up to it don't know the facts.
It also completely ignores the causes of increased numbers of refugees and migrant workers - global warming, water shortages, floods, dictatorships (many backed and armed by the British government), wars (some, like Iraq, begun by the British government - far more involving arms exported on licences and with arms export credit guarantees provided from taxpayers' money by the British government)"
if u travel the world its quite amusing to see most 3rd and 2nd world coutries have quite strict immigration and border controls, unlike britain, we should learn from that, alf garnett
So what? Do not people from the developing world have skills and the enthusiasm that we seem to lack here to participate in rebuilding the economy of this Isle?
"Battistan (bantustan?)
You managed to find an atlas then?
China and Russia can survive without the West. The House of Saud wouldn't last a week.
There there"
"JuliuzBeezer,

You must be joking. The vast majority of people in this country eat a varied diet which most frequently includes meat. But even vegetarian with some dairy products, do you realise that according to your own calculations/figures, the country couldn't support the current population off its own back, let alone twice its current population?
If you think the country is going to go vegan to be able to maintain its food security, you're living on a planet which doesn't resemble this one. The reason vegan diets aren't widely adopted is because they are so restrictive.
So when you said this country could easily support double its population, you meant as a combination of eating stalks and seeds, crammed to the hilt, choking in pollution and miserable as all frak. Well, why didn't you just say so? A smashing idea. You can scoff your tubers and lentils while you ask yourself whether if you downgrade to garden grass, you could accommodate 150 million.
This foray into la-la land is very stimulating, but now I'm going to have a chicken burger. :)"
"It's all irrelevant now anyways. Immigration has gone far too far (all over Europe, not just the UK) and far-right parties are beginning a surge in popularity all over the continent, which will continue unabated.
Of course, the left would love to trivialise this phenomenon and put it into insignificance, but look at the recent elections taking place:
1. Holland: Geert Wilders is becoming a force to be reckoned with, a serious contender for the Premiership, and if not, will be a serious power broker in the upcoming government there.
2. France: Front National Back in force in the latest regional elections. Despite being virtually bankrupt, in all the regions they stood they averaged around 20 % of the vote, and still managed a health 10% plus nationally.
3. Britain: BNP has made some serious ground in the last 10 years, despite the left-wing's attempt to bankrupt them they have gone from total obscurity to a mainstream, much talked-about political party that recently got 1 million votes in the Euro election and have MEP's for the first time.
4. Eastern Europe: Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary all seeing healthy figures for the far-right in recent elections.
5. Italian regional elections yesterday: Centre-right Berlusconi's position remains healthy, but the real story was the surge in popularity of the far-right Northern League from roughly 5 to 13% of the natinoal vote (and they didn't stand in many regions). The current interior minister is Robert Maroni, a well known fascist who idolises Mussolini and has put in place tought anti-immigration measures which are beginning to bare fruit.
So yes, you can bang on about how ""racism is bad"" and we need to understand our neighbours in this multicultural society. But the cat is out of the bag for voters. They are sick of the crazy third-world immigration influx of recent times, and no longer feel the need to be tolerant anymore.
Europe is heading increasingly to the far-right, which is in my opinion, a much needed wake up call for ""conservatives"" like my Mate Dave."
"_AT_Malarkos
Every time there is a recession, far-right parties enjoy a bit of a spike in popularity but not enough to give them any real leverage. Then the economy stabilises again and they go back to the fringes, and everything continues as before.
Sorry to disappoint, but Europe is not heading increasingly to the far-right. The economy will recover and the far-right will grudgingly go back to the shadows again, to await the next crisis of confidence."
"_AT_ OZKT
Your analysis is rather flimsy. Take the rise of the BNP for example. In 2005 they achieved just under a million votes in the European elections, which was unprecedented for them and demonstrated a clear trend. Yet in 2005 the economy was seemingly in great shape, and we were a long way from recession. So how can the rise of the BNP be attributed to economic woes?
Secondly, as I pointed out, Geert Wilders is becoming a real force in Holland, one of the leading politicians there. Yet statistics show that the unemployment rate in Holland is only 5% and in 2009 hovered around 4%- hardly an economic meltdown is it? And Wilders has been campaigning againt Islamification and crime in Dutch cities, i.e the cultural effect of immigrants on Holland, rather than ""they're stealing our jobs"".
Thirdly your assertion that they have ""no real leverage"" seems bizarre. Wilders's freedom Party is expected to be the largest, or second largest party in the upcoming Dutch elections. The head of the Northern League in Italy is the Italian Home Secretary.
In Hungary, the ultra-right party Jobbik are expected to take 20% in the upcoming national elections, making them the second biggest party:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62S1CU20100329
Please explain to me how you have come to the conclusion that parties such as the Northern League, Jobbik or Geert Wilders's Freedom Party have no real leverage or possible influence on the political outcomes in their respective countries?
I will gladly agree that the BNP have absolutely no political clout in the UK, but the same cannot be said of the far-right in some European countries. So why the lame attempt to brush them off as marginal and unimportant?"
"Can Andrew explain how he decided to extrapolate out the 2008 figure instead of focussing on the downward trend?
McShane was right, the tabloid rightwing press creates the murky water Nazis like the BNP swim in. They constantly run scaremonngering stories portraying immigrants as evil predators, presumably for the Daily Mail this is merely a contiunuance of their traditional support for fascism."
"Constabulary:

Many Asian in-migrants undoubtedly do, but Labour's volume migration into the UK is a pyramid sale; one that Gordon Brown says is ""good for the economy"". But in a country short of space, it's not good for our housing queues, our road and airports congestion - and we have increased our reliance on foreign supplies of food and fuels. Worse, as the in-migrants get older and their kids grow through the economy, we'll have to import yet more in-migrants to keep it all going. The Americans would call it a Ponzi scam. It would give Bernard Madoff a laugh. We're that stupid."
"Is a quite a sweeping generalisation. I have made various negative comments regarding immigration to the UK in the noughties, however I've never said it is all out bad.
I think having a points system is essential and the e-borders scheme enables us to track people in and out of the country.
We should also aim to keep immigration from as wider number of countries as possible, because in my experience it results in stronger communities."
"undersinged:

Yes, it could all be built on the Essex cornfields. You must be John Prescott."
"isn't the point of ""mass immigration"" to reduce and eventually curtail the political and economic demands of the ""working classes""?
since the '90s there's been a push to labour market ""flexibility"" to compete with the slave trades in China and the absolute-poverty threatened labourers in India. or rather, that was the intended implication of a ""comptitive global market"". no quotas, favourable access to the markets of Europe for ""thirdworld nations"", what else but a reduction of earnings, expectations, jobs and quality of training was to be expected for those on the lower rungs of the economy?"
For working class people immigration is an attack on them as the increase in the supply of labour allows employers to attack pay and conditions. If we want to have freedom of movement and continue to have the open society we enjoy then we need to protect the value of labour by a higher minimum wage and shorter working week.
"oohkuchi: J

Like the UK, Japan is overpopulated and has to trawl way beyond its shores for food. Go figger."
From the comments here, it seems that the goods of the rest of the world can be used for the benefit of Britain (mankind here) (oil, fruits, cacao, cheap labour abroad), but hey, no, British soil is sacred and cannot be shared wih a few newcomers (aliens here). Selfish, is what I say.
"And a higher minimum wage means inflated prices of goods and services. Shorter working week means less salary and less consumer spending power.
There will be sacrifices whichever way. There is no way to keep the status quo, continue living the good life standing still. As I have pointed out before, the world is changing, it is moving forwards.
Do not expect to be spoon-fed and expect a comfortable life (possible when the economy is booming) When it does not work that way, blame it on everything else eh?
Those who complain about not being able to find jobs should really try to bite the bullet and take some hard knocks. Say, you are from some sink estate in the Midland. Whats stopping you from going to London, rent a room, get a minimum wage job and slog it a bit. Thats what all the immigrants do, regardless of where they come from. Of course, after rent, you do not get much. However, you would have valuable experience which is infinitely better than staying home whining.
Its not that it will be for life. After that kind of work, I am sure even the most unmotivated, uneducated person would think twice and realise life is not a bed of roses and try to better themselves.
To me, it is simply failed policies from the government to address serious social issues. The British simply needs to buck up."
"_AT_JedBartlett

Yes, he decided to use a language most of us understand. Your designation and nitpicking seems rather symptomatic of the whole debate."
Essentially you point is that workers should jump to the employers' tune and in Tebbit's word "get on our bikes". This is an attitude which ignores the fact that workers have the ability to organise our own industries and create our own jobs. We do not need to rely on employers, rather it is they who rely on us. Workers need to redress the balance of power in this country which for the past 30 years has tilted in favour of the employer and the rich, creating an unhappy and unsustainable economy.
"I don't think ""cheap labour"" is a 'good', infact I'd consider it one of the chief reasons behind all social ills.
You can only maintain cheap labour by globalising the labour market, by setting European workers in competition against Chinese workers in a race to the bottom. Over a length of time, the more expensive (and generally better trained, educated and able) worker will be reduced to penury as his employer's costs get benchmarked against global wages and his own costs of living remain very distinctly local (and relative to the initial state of the economy).
We all realise that £1 goes further in say Bangladesh than it does in the UK, so open labour markets will of necessity harm the workers of the more developed economies because they live in an environment of relatively 'inflated' prices (as well as the whole business of artificial demand generation by social conditioning and propaganda). If they rent or pay a mortgage, they are basically unable to subsist on the McJobs and if they have a family to support, they will be open to far greater costs than someone who comes here with the singular purpose of providing money for a family ""back home"".
Telling unemployed people to take McJobs is ludicrous, insane and totally unsupportable long term. It takes away from the demand of the domestic economy, it takes away from the skills of the domestic economy and it transfers wealth to sectors that cannot provide anything of export value either. Either eliminate McJobs or ban the importation of McJob workers so that the market has to reach a new and more localise equilibrium.
Yet, because mainstream political parties are ideologically bound to exporting 'democracy' via bombs, bribes, threats and troops, there will always be some poor unfortunate country reaching a new low in wage levels and thus pressure to ""open"" the labour markets to drive in phantom profits (without garnering a similar increase in the size of the domestic economy) to the nation.
The only people who make good out of this situation are the investment class and the myopic consumers who, like Wimpy from Popeye, buy a hamburger today with a promise to pay next Tuesday. They think that cheap services are making them wealthy, but their wealth, or rather their feeling of being comfortable, is dependant upon the nation retaining its capacity to buy/pay/make..."
"We here now that turkey has relaxed visa controls on a number of muslim countries, and will not change even if turkey gets EU member ship, so what happens then a open gate to the muslim world via turkey .
What the hell are these politicians thinking are they trying to provoke siville strife in this country,because if they do not start listening to the people that is comeing and quickly."
"<>>>>>
How is it possible to eliminate Mcjobs? Who is going to serve your Big Mac, your Caramel Latte or Subway sandwich?
Unless you are saying ban them all too. In which case, that feels to me as a closed economy, more akin to communism.
The reality is that in this age, there are still shitty jobs that need to be carried out. No escape. In a developed country, if the native population does not want to do shitty jobs, there are essentially a few choices.
- Get a job that requires a higher skill level / have a higher demand that pays better
- Invent robots to replace McJob workers
- Sit at home and listen to Milli Vanilli's Blame it on the rain. (replace 'rain' with 'everything else')
Boomonkey,
I apologise if that is the way you feel. I did not meant that, but one has to be realistic.
What makes you think the majority of workers can organise their own jobs? They are workers because they are average. I know, because I am a worker too, And I am average.
The smart, outstanding ones create. They become entrepreneurs, inventors, scientists. New companies and industries are set up by them and the employ the average joe to do the normal jobs."
"Your thinking as an individualist, what I'm talking about is the collective power of the working class.
I'd suggest you feel average because this society dis-empowers and individualises workers. I'm a worker, but I'm not average, and I find after talking with workers it's rare to find an average one who isn't capable of changing their workplace, community, industry, or even their whole society. If you aren't capable changing things, you really are unique, certainly not average.

Or maybe it's just the lucky / rich ones??? And what about the great ideas which aren't profitable???"
"1sthand:

Good post, but Joe's world goes shakey after that. The smart people who started the company can't wait to cash in their chips. Their London accountants, lawyers and bankers are gagging for M&A work, the senior City geezers sell the company abroad, they all pay themselves fat fees and bonuses, the new owners move the company's skill centre abroad, the UK economy loses substance and the average Joe is left wondering how long his normal job will last. But our metropolitan emperors do not notice. They're OK."
"The way to get rid of Mcjobs is to pay people a decent amount for their work. Businesses should avoid exploiting Labour by driving down wages not predicating their entire businesses by doing so.
Raise the minimum wage to ten pounds an hour and you'll incentivise millions and half the welfare budget!"
"1sthand:

McJobs do little to nothing for our economy and make our societies worse, so why not ban them? Really, we demolished the manufacturing sector by exporting the technology, method, skills and capital to China and other slave-economies. What possible cost could there be in depriving people of their junkfood and junkdrink? But that's not what I am suggesting really.
Instead, by banning the importation of McJob workers, employers would be forced to either restructure their business models to compete whilst meeting local labour costs (costs of employing citizens who would ultimately compensate society for whatever is lost in the way of a few burgers by their being able to reinvest their earnings into the economy and into their families here) or get out of the game entirely (thus creating room for others to enter the market and make a profit). Simple as that really.
Regulation seems to be the government's (""The Party""'s) favourite weapon to wield at small businesses, at entrepreneurs, at anybody who wishes to do anything other than work as a cog in the machine of big business. Still doesn't stop people from being productive and making innovations that benefit us all. So why not regulate here? It would help people, vulnerable, socially excluded, economically disadvantaged ... (insert whatever buzzword you want to apply here) people.
As to the bit about it resembling a ""closed economy"", well... what of it? Really, how open can a labour market be? Say I wanted to work for Disneyland, would I have a shot at it without moving to Florida (or is it California?)? Of course not, I neither have the resources nor the financial wherewithall to chase after well paid professional work, the world over. Corporations do, they shouldn't, but they do. It is an inequal bargain, the market is an illusion, the consumer is also the con(ned)sumer as he trades away his economy for the sake of a cheap subway.
Competition is supposed to bring benefits to the nation as a whole, the ""Comparative Advantage"" thing of Ricardo's. McJobs and wholesale outsourcing do not do so, they bring profit to a select class, at the cost of investment, stability, robustness and sustainability.
We are not in a market of nations, trying to make the cheapest widgets possible. Britain's economy is supposed to sustain its society, people enjoy capitalism because it gives us freedom from nannying types and from bosses and from tossers who would tell us how to live... or at least they used to.
Corporations are neither capitalist, free marketeers nor competitive enterprises, they collude, they regulate and they alter the rules of the market. So again, what is the benefit of an ""open economy""?
We don't help the Chinese by propping up their insane communist government, we don't help India by artifiicially shaping their labour market to suit our transient demand for call centres and data cleansing... It only helps those who control investment and those who have a fetish for global nannying."
"Yes you are right about the lucky / rich ones.
But never before in recent human history that we are so socially mobile.
There is no point being jealous about the already rich. The opportunities are there if one is capable.
Also bear in mind that many rich people have worked hard to be where they are (legal or morally right or not is another matter, but they had to work for it). As long as one has the motivation, he will make it. I personally know some rich bas***** my age who had it easy all their life, oblivious to their surroundings. I may not like them a lot, but credits to their parents.
I am however intrigued by what you mean as change the workplace. Could you give some examples?
I mean do you mean a group of baristas in Starbucks band together and then,
- demand better pay and conditions (like the unions do)
- Start their own coffee chain (risk that in the future, they'll just be another coffee chain like starbucks)
Or something else? I am confused now."
"Its the same all over the world isn't it? The strongest survive. In Britain, people are lucky because there are legislation and law and opportunities.
It at least levels the playing field a bit and ensures that those at the bottom rung of the ladder gets a shot at going up.
Now, in say rural India. There would be no safety net. Quality of life is horrible thanks to non-existent infrastructure. For a poor living there, chances of making it are minute. Maybe 0%.
Thats why in East Asian culture, great emphasis is placed on education. As that is one of the ways to escape poverty. It may not work out in the end, but it's worth a shot.
That is one of the reasons people admire the UK and want to come here. A stable government, good social services etc.
In your example, that is always going to happen if there work can be outsourced cheaply. Only way to stop it is to declare it illegal which would have its side effects."
The Union stuff, workers' collective power has changed everything from simple processes to the control of entire nations.
"In the absence of evidence from Andrew Green about the aboveso far, I also wanted to ask him if he had evidence for these bold claims -
- Immigration is a real problem
- ... but the fact is, there are growing population pressures from the third world
- ... why the Labour party's traditional voters are turning in significant numbers to the BNP
- The reality is that the long-term immigration pressures come from the third world.
- If we fail to achieve this, our population will continue to climb ? perhaps indefinitely.
He also said -

It hasn't been calm - a number of the comments above are insults traded between individuals.
It hasn't been rational - many comments are about subjects other than the issues related to immigration in the article.
In summary, this 'debate' achieves neither of the above, and while the article is calm, it is not rational."
"I always wonder what is meant by such comments as ""if you vote for the BNP you are endorsing racism."" Is it ""racist"" to acknowledge that had Britain been settled by various African tribes or Asian peoples instead of Celts, Angles, Saxons and other North Western folk the same civilisation would not have resulted ? Is being proud of what the British people have built over the centuries ""racism""? Is wanting your nation to retain its identity and thus its continuing culture ""racism"" ?
This hugely overused word has been employed for decades to silence any opposition to what has been a systematic policy of destroying Britain and the British people - racially, culturally, morally, and in terms of its political independence.
Perhaps someone could advise me of a party in this country, other than the BNP, which will take effective action to prevent (or indeed, even wants to prevent) immigration changing the whole face of Britain.
Oh, and will also restore our criminal justice system to one which actually protects the decent. law-abiding citizen, and includes an efficient court system and police force that have the confidence & respect of the public, rather than their growing contempt ?
And re-introduces discipline and standards to our Education and Health services, so that they are freed from their reputations for sloppiness and chaos and dreadful products ?
And will replace traditional marriage & the family firmly at the centre of our society (NB: the traditional variety, with a man and a woman, rather than Mr Brown's and Mr Cameron's amended versions) ?
And will protect our Christian heritage, rather than stand smirkingly by while it vanishes ?
And will equip our Armed Forces properly ? And then only use them in defence of OUR interests ?
And will rebuild our manufacturing industries under BRITISH control, and reverse the almost daily closing of our farms which have been deliberately undermined so that they are less & less financially viable ?
And will take us out of the EU before it is too late, and we become just a province of a Soviet-type Europe ?
And will replace as many as possible of the 643 MPs who at present disgrace their office with men & women genuinely dedicated to the service of their country and its people, rather than their own selfish interests and/or their sneering disinterest in or naked hatred for their own kind ?
I say ""effective action"" advisedly : not the cascade of words that pours from the lips of our politicians prior to elections, and which they have no intention whatsoever of fulfilling."
"Again, the comment above is not about the contents of the article. It is calm, but irrational.
And it is propaganda for the BNP."
"juliuzbeezer

Pretentious! Moi?,"
"_AT_peoplesdemocracy - well, there you go. You make a point about rich versus poor, and a nitwit like you turns what I've said into ""ooh, you're a racist! You're a racist!"" - it's pathetic.
If you actually read what I'd written properly, you would see that I was pointing out that demonising the poor by accusing them of racism isn't working any more for the elite/middle class so-called liberals. People have been shit on for so long that they no longer feel embarassed about it. You are a middle-class kneejerk tit of the lowest order. For what it's worth, pal, I am from - yes, an immigrant family. I am a ""person of colour"". I am working class, and grew up on a council estate. Granted, I may be in the minority here on the Guardian website, but some of us can read AND write.
That is to say, my experience of poverty and mass immigration is a much more qualified one than yours, mate.
This issue is about one thing - freemarket capitalism. We're all immigrant scum in the eyes of the people who run this country."
"Ohhhhh. I like you sunshine. Pity your party fails at politics

You mean the reforms Cameron and Clegg are proposing? Of course, you tend to forget that Britain was a multi cultural society since the heyday of the British Empire in the 1800's where Britain was the center of a global trade nexus and some people decided to stay even then.

You mean the one that says innocent before proven guilty? Its not a perfect system. And as far as I know, most people believe the police are doing a fine job with the limited resources they have. Some reforms are needed regarding the policing of protests and survealance but the Police have a far better reputation than the media suggests. Of course, if you like we can just go back to kangaroo courts and public stoning.

You mean the NHS that is the envy of a majority of nations of the world? I guess you were never listening in History class either since Britain still has a high standard of goods (Though a bit pricey).

Just say you hate Gay people and single parents. Its easier. The world is changing and we are laughing at you by the way.

What Christian heritage? The church hasn't had a place in Britain since the 1700's. Though I guess you want to bring back witch burnings do you? Someone put a hex on your crops?

War has casualties. We lost thousands of people to equipment failures in WWI and II. The fact that very few people have lost their lives to this in Afghanistan and Iraq is a miracle. P.S. Oil was a major interest to the British government. I guess they went off and defended that. Whoops.

And destroy the internal economy? Absolutley. Go for it. Lets get destroyed by every other manufacturing economy in the world while we are at it and drive away global investment as well.

We are welcome to leave at any time. But its nice to have money, better economic stability and the ability to sod off to Benidorm when we like no?

And yet Nigel Farrage decided that he was going to take the European parliament expenses and Nick Griffin went off to attend a commemoration of Fransico Franco in Spain while his North West constituency faced the worst flooding in years. He then had the gall to show up months later after the fact and promise them a paltry £1,000 to rebuild their community. Plus the £200,000 expenses he claimed in the European parliament that himself and Andrew Brons refuse to verify through an independent accountant unlike the three main parties who volunteer their expenses to an independent survey and have the results published online.
Of course, working in your best interests .

Nope. The BNP doesn't have an intention. Take the money and run and screw the working class while they are at it. Its hilarious though. All the little disciples running around convincing Britain of the coming of their saviour Nick Griffin. Block quoting EDF forum posts and trying to convert the apostates. Shame BNP policies are all god awful, will never work and serve to dog whistle people who don't know better so the BNP can screw them. I hope they do become legitimate so we can all laugh at them together.
Political legitimacy is a b***h, isn't it?"
Good article. I would like to add that as far as the Southern Cone (Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Paraguay and Chile) and Brazil are concerned the threat of derailing from democtratic tracks has been minimised (mostly due to the government imposed shrinkage of the Armed Forces) and the biggest threat is by far CORRUPTION (mainly bribes). Not that it was inexistent before, but the levels of it now a days is staggering. Latin America has definitively learned the hard way that neo liberal (economically speaking) policies on developing countries are recepies for disaster. The challenge now is to tackle corruption the same way that human rights violations (Dictaduras during 70s and 80s) and hawkish ultra free market policies encouraged by the IMF (90s) were delt with: democratically. If Corruption is reigned in, Latin America is ripe for a balanced and socialy sound development. A lot is to be done still. From Buenos Aires, Happy New year to all.
"""However, the price of social justice was high: one-party rule, inflexible economic structures, ageing leaders and a lack of wider opportunities for the younger generation.""
We can add to those costs the following: unthinkable pollution and environmental degredation, a loss of any freedom of thought or conscience, economic stagnation, a perverse focus on heavy industry to the detriment of social welfare, massive state surveilance, the murder of opponents en masse, political prisons and a military industrial complex unsurpassed by anything the West could offer."
"Dignity is to relationship As status is for the free An essence quintessential For true equality
Through sense of self others needs Can better be divined But who guards the Spirit From consumptive force of mind?
Democracy gives voice To the people, to the poor It is through individual conscience That the Spirit shapes the Law"
"I would invite Mr. Hegyi to save the 'bittersweet nostalgia' for himself, because myself and most fellow Eastern Europeans my age that I know nurture no such feelings.
The author keeps up the good Communist (or is it 'progressive'?) habit of what we used to call the 'wooden tongue', ... 'the lack of competitive democratic elections was the greatest failing of the postwar eastern European model' has to be one of the most creative ways of describing a dictatorship that I have ever encountered.
I also take umbrage from the idea of 'redistribution of wealth'. Rather than take money from those who have and give it to those who don't, how about teaching the latter to create wealth? Mr. Hegyi may want to set the Marxism-Leninism manuals aside for a moment and pay a visit to Otavalo, in Ecuador, to see an example of a very successful, entrepreneurial Latin American community that does not seem to need a nanny state to be economically self sufficient."
"""Nature endows us with the desire for freedom at our birth, yet men, whether from apathy or inborn inclination, suffer the chains laid upon them. It is a terrible truth that it costs more strength to maintain freedom than to endure the yoke of tyranny. Many nations, past and present, have borne that yoke; few have made use of the happy moments of freedom and have preferred to lapse with all speed into their errors. For it is people rather than systems which lead to tyranny. The habit of subjection makes them less susceptible to the beauty of honour and progress, and they look unmoved on the glory of living in liberty under self-made laws.""
Simon Bolivar's Angostura address"
I'm not sure about this article, seems to me that we need to be careful about say endorsing a state film industry (different to a state subsidy for films). Noone would disagree that we need to fund education and health and stop companies performing illegal acts but there is a huge difference between that and Chavismo. Its interesting Chavez relies a lot on oil- like the Norwegian model you wonder whether the Venezualan is impossible without oil. http://gracchii.blogspot.com
"Interesting post, SuriyoThai,
Perhaps one has to have a certain degree of economic security before one starts thinking about creating wealth. It is hard for very poor people to take risks, they have little and can't afford to gamble with that. [his sentiment may have been stolen from the late Prof. Glabraith.]
Perhaps Chavez will succeed in providing this basic security and kick start the whole process of wealth creation based on assets other than oil.
Wishful thinking?"
"With both capitalism and socialism dead as economic ruling paradigms, the central distinction in this article is outdated.
Socialism's demise can be charted against the demise of the Soviet Union, while perhaps less obvious, capitalism's decline is implicit in the environmental disaster we all now confront.
An economic ideology based on consumption in a time of resource shortage may still allow market efficiency, but does not allocate social efficiency. History teaches the poor will grow in number and revolt and current trends in terrorism may be an early indicator of willingness by those with nothing, to confront the ruling ideologies of western democracy and capitalism. The free market simply cannot work for a new global civilization of 10 billion people, to manage resources in the face of extreme decline in these resources .
China and India make up a third of the world's population and will increasingly set a new economic agenda. A new type of governance/economic framework is required, one where nation states are controlled by global bodies - no wars, some security operations - and where the fundamental requirement for social justice and economic stability is framed around a new technological capacity offering absolute standards of transparency and accountability from both government and business.
This will allow citizens to be located in self-governing communities linked to ever larger constituencies, through 100% dependable electronic systems. We cannot afford any more Blair, Bush, Putin or the whole grab-bag of 19th and 20th century dictators... and we cannot afford the robber barons of the 21st century."
"With both capitalism and socialism dead as economic ruling paradigms, the central distinction in this article is outdated.
Socialism's demise can be charted against the demise of the Soviet Union, while perhaps less obvious, capitalism's decline is implicit in the environmental disaster we all now confront.
An economic ideology based on consumption in a time of resource shortage may still allow market efficiency, but does not allocate social efficiency. History teaches the poor will grow in number and revolt and current trends in terrorism may be an early indicator of willingness by those with nothing, to confront the ruling ideologies of western democracy and capitalism. The free market simply cannot work for a new global civilization of 10 billion people, to manage resources in the face of extreme decline in these resources .
China and India make up a third of the world's population and will increasingly set a new economic agenda. A new type of governance/economic framework is required, one where nation states are controlled by global bodies - no wars, some security operations - and where the fundamental requirement for social justice and economic stability is framed around a new technological capacity offering absolute standards of transparency and accountability from both government and business.
This will allow citizens to be located in self-governing communities linked to ever larger constituencies, through 100% dependable electronic systems. We cannot afford any more Blair, Bush, Putin or the whole grab-bag of 19th and 20th century dictators... and we cannot afford the robber barons of the 21st century."
"Suriyothai
I don't think Ecuador is a very good example, if you are attempting to show that Latin America 'don't reallly want' the democratic socialism the author of the article proposes and that capitalism is doing 'just fine'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Correa"
First thanks to Mr. "damnlies" for its proclamation that capitalism is in decline already. Totally true, especially from here in New York, where you can see Wall Street is already half empty, investment bans and hedge funds on the run and the masses are already taking over The Trunp towers, from which Ms USA had to flee yesterday. I think the major problem with this article is the lack of good English command the author shows. For example, he states: "If the Marxist parties of the present Latin American leaders have more centrist rivals, with Social Democratic ideas, that will help to provide alternatives for left-leaning voters" But this is hard to comprehend since "the preset Latin leaders" do not have "Marxists parties" that they command. I do not where the author got this bizarre idea from. Actually there are not "Marxists " parties in L.A. except perhaps in Chile where the CP got 5% of the vote last elections. But to the contrary, the populist movements in L.A. have been able to advance because they jettisoned the old Marxo-Hegelian mumbo jumbo of dialectics and the law of value and instead concentrated in sinple indigenous concepts of fairness and justice. This article might have good intentions but it reveals profound ignorance of the movements surging in Latin America. Cristobal
"Despite Georgina's censorship blitz that has us all reeling, the Guardian is still one of the few mainstream sources where the voice of truth sometimes can be heard above the incessant blare of anti-Russian, anti-Chavez propaganda.
Thank you, Gyula Hegyi, for showing us that there are still Hungarians who can think critically, certainly more critically than the majority of Euros.
Those who can't think for themselves like Ms. Hegyi are condemned to learn the hard way, in history's school of hard knocks, by the hand of the likes of Dumbya and Bliar.
Capitalism is facing a collapse as severe as 1939, this time compounded by the political and military collapse of the global imperialist hegemon on all fronts. Hugo Chavez has already raised the red flag of socialism. Soon it will fly all over the globe, as the multitudes learn yet again in the school of hard knocks that capitalism's promises are all lies."
Eastern Europe were never communist. They were stalinist.
"""The injustices of former regimes were abolished: villages got electricity and healthcare, universities were opened to working-class children, adults stopped kissing the hands of priests. ""
Villages got electricity & religion declined in post-War Western Europe as well, without the need to send people to the Gulag..."
There's nothing like a sweeping generalisation, I love it. Let's lump Latin America into a homogenous block, let's lump Eastern Europe into another. It's so much easier to make assumptions.
"""But unhappy memories of party dictatorship in eastern Europe mean the word ""socialism"" still has negative associations for many people.."" - so true, Mr Hegyi !
I notice that you're a journalist-novelist as well as being a Socialist deputy at the European Parliament. It's nice that The Guardian publishes some of your articles and enables you to earn some much needed hard currency."
Socialist democracy? You are joking right? You're only about a century too late for that sort of nonsense. Things are changing rapidly, and socialist democracy left the race a long while back.
"papakarl: ""Capitalism is facing a collapse as severe as 1939, this time compounded by the political and military collapse of the global imperialist hegemon on all fronts. Hugo Chavez has already raised the red flag of socialism. Soon it will fly all over the globe, as the multitudes learn yet again in the school of hard knocks that capitalism's promises are all lies.""
That's the funniest thing i've heard all morning! Thanks!"
"Small, but important, point. It's South America, not Latin.
Deconstructing paradigms is integral to starting any 'new' discourse."
"Nice article urging caution in this promising but delicate situation.
Oh, and Creel wants a wise up tablet for christmas: ""an essence quintessential?...consumptive force of mind?"" Really, Creel?"
"Good article, if a little over-simplified as Koolio says. It would be good to see a genuine leftist democratic country to dispel the bad image socialism has (unfairly in my view, the Soviets could have corrupted any ideology just as badly). We currently only have Sweden to point at (yes, even with its new government) – proof enough that social democracy hasn't ""left the race a long while back"", but it's still just a fringe player.
I disagree that a state film studio to counter 'reactionary propoganda' is a good idea though, that's straight out of the Communist Party manual. (Anyone who mentions the BBC in this context neets hitting with a clue stick, just to pre-empt that one.) Media outlets should always be independently run, even if they receive state funding, that's a very important part of a free country.
Damnlies: I basically agree, but: ""...through 100% dependable electronic systems"" How likely is that, considering the problems there've been with the (relatively small scale) electronic voting we've seen so far?
It is a great shame that the experience of Eastern Europe has indelibly blighted leftist politics and opened up those countries for the usual economic rape by more developed countries. As I said above, I hope South America can show the world that a social democratic state (a real one, not the Labour sham) is possible and practical."
"I would rather read an article from Mr. Hegyi concerning Central and Eastern Europe. What happens in Central or South America is hardly transferable to this part of Europe given the major historical, economic, demographic and cultural differences between the regions.
""Eastern Europe remains condemned by its past to neo-liberalism"". I cannot be sure if you wrote this byline, Mr. Hegyi. But let me point out to those who are not well informed about Central and Eastern Europe that Hungary has certainly not embraced neo-liberalism. Admittedly, foreign corporations are encouraged to set up shop here and large Hungarian companies, such as Mol and OTP, have benefited from access to foreign markets. But the large presence of the state sector (government revenue and spending as a proportion of GDP is far higher in Hungary than in other countries in Central and Eastern Europe) and the numerous taxes and regulations that stifle Hungarian small businesses are far from being an example of neo-liberalism, no matter how looses your definition of the term.
""The social interest in eastern Europe is similar: more equality, better chances for domestic enterprises instead of foreign corporations, generous social services."" Well Mr. Hegyi, your party is clearly failing to advance the socialist interest in Hungary. No matter how much it borrows, it will not be able to afford generous social services until Hungary is a much richer country (you cannot construct a French/German-style welfare state in a middle income country such as Hungary). And, to be frank, the Hungarian government is tightening the stranglehold on domestic small and mid-sized enterprises with its latest increases in social security contributions and expansion of the already mighty forest of petty regulations. It is no wonder that foreign corporations are thriving in Hungary, when domestic companies are handicapped by their own government!
""Eastern Europeans follow the leftward turn in Latin America with a mixture of deja vu and bittersweet nostalgia."" Be honest, Mr. Hegyi, this is how you (and maybe some fellow members of your party) see events in Venezuela, Bolivia etc. But it is a minority view across Central and Eastern Europe. There is little in common between the populist regimes of Ch�vez and Morales and the, ahem, rather unpopular dictatorships that were imposed on most of Central and Eastern Europe from the 1950s onwards.
""enforced by the Soviet Union but supported by progressive forces."" You mistyped and the editor has, unfortunately, not spotted this. You clearly meant to type ""repressive forces"".
Lacanian - yes papakarl is at his best when he attempts humour! Unfortunately he too often descends into bigoted rants against the ""clerical fascist"" Poles, Hungarians, Czechs etc. who dared not to welcome Stalinism with open arms."
Hegyi seems to like the word "ruthless" in his discriptive analysis of Capitalism and Western corporations. He is apparently oblivious to the fact that Western companies and investors have lifted literally hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in East Asia and India over the last 3 decades.
Is the article saying that, to take for example two countries which were on the starting blocks together in 1991, the Belarussian model is a more successful one than Lithuania's?
If "Socialist Democracy" is so great, why doesn't it exist?
"I believe the re-election of Chavez, and election victories by Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega and Ecuador's Rafael Correa represent a sea change in relation to the political landscape of the Americas dominated for decades by right-wing US sponsored regimes. I just hope those left-wing leaders in Eastern Europe will make the right policy decision regarding the management of the economy and the social re-distribution of wealth. Thus, helping to create a new world order, as result of which, the interest of the masses comes first before imperialist, elitist and corporation.
� Change has a considerable psychological impact on the human mind. To the fearful it is threatening because it means that things may get worse. To the hopeful it is encouraging because things may get better. To the confident it is inspiring because the challenge exists to make things better.�"
"bittersweet nostalgia?
What, for T-54 tanks and the AVH?"
Good article. Thanks
"said the confessed alcoholic:
If ""Socialist Democracy"" is so great, why doesn't it exist?
You just missed the gent who could have answered you. If you ever pass through the seventh circle of hell, ask Augusto Pinochet. Maybe he'll tell you maybe he won't. More likely he'll set fire to your eyeballs."
"Well done Gyula Hegyi, for producing a thoughtful and balanced piece of analysis!
What matters to the future of humanity and our planet is not the old dogmatic political labels but creative and participatory revolutionary processes that can emancipate humanity from slavery to capital and replace it with a humanist social partnership, more democratic then capitalism, more just and redistributive, more accountable and responsible for the ecological health of the planet and the wellbeing of everyone.
This is what the construction of 21st Century socialism in Venezuela is all about."
"Ownership without control is not ownership, hence non-democratic socialism, where an elite makes decisions, is not only an aberration, it is an oxymoron. People are quite right to critical of the old soviet bloc regimes.
However, lets not kid ourselves that the business and political classes of the West hate those regimes for the same reasons we do. They are quite comfortable with tyranny, inpoverishment, human rights abuses, etc because they do business with such regimes every day. (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Libya). What they hated about those regimes was the threat to their own authority, i.e. that it really was possible for a people to dispose of a ruling class."
"Thanks, PapaKarl.
I am glad you agree with Pinochet's profound understanding of the incompatibility of socialism and democracy."
"""bittersweet nostalgia""?
What, for T-54 tanks and the AVH?"
"""you wonder whether the Venezualan (model) is impossible without oil.""
Of course it's impossible without oil! But so what... the Norwegian model is pretty damn impossible without oil too. Just as the British industrial revolution would have been rather tricky without coal.
The point of the exercise is to use natural resources to benefit the country itself, its infrastructure and people, not just the Texan oilmongers and their wealthy, white stooges in Venezuelan high society. Whether or not he succeeds is another matter entirely, but that's the principle. It's not communist revolution, whatever the author claims, it's just a basic nation-building exercise and historically entirely uncontroversial."
"I'm sure the two scandals that Hungary is now facing is a bit easier to face than the soviet tanks they faced in 1956.
or the firing squads faced by dissenters in Catros Cuba"
So Mr Gyula Hegyi, are we to take your nostalgic view of stalinism at face value, or are you, like your PM comrade, actually lying all day and all night?
Excellent article!
"Dear LostCause
The revolution in Venezuela is much more then a national liberation struggle. It is a struggle for the voluntary integration of America, to be guided by liberating all American ethnic communities from poverty and capitalism. For this purpose, Chavez has initiated ALBA (the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas).
The official document launching ALBA (Construyendo el ALBA �Nuestro Norte es el Sur�) poses the objective of building of a common, prosperous future for Latin America, one that addresses the abhorrent social inequalities and that allows the region to insert itself in the globalised world through a model with possibilities of sustainable development, that is, through an alternative economic strategy for the region, which involves fields such as culture, environment, politics, society, economics and many other features of Latin America.
ALBA is the alternative to ALCA firstly because it seeks to uphold the rights of society as a whole (the specific rights of workers, peasants, women, indigenous groups, the poor, youth, children, and so forth) and, secondly, it is the cumulative experience of the utopias which Latin Americans have attempted over the centuries since the European invasion and conquest back in the 16th century.
Current members of ALBA are Bolivia, Cuba and Venezuela. The newly elected president of Ecuador, Rafael Correa has expressed a keen interest in joining ALBA."
"Uri - yes, you're right. I appreciate that Chavez's is indeed a ""Bolivarian"" ideal. I was just commenting on the notion that there is something unusual about using raw material resources to fund progress on infrastructure and education.
I'm personally a little ambivalent about Chavez's messianic streak, but you can hardly fail to applaud his attempts to use oil wealth to free the continent from the IMF and their vultures."
"I don't think it would be in any way critical of the new trend of progressive governments and movements throughout Latin America to point out that many of their reforms (both achieved and outlined) might be more properly defined as moves toward independence than as yet any form of ""socialism.""
It is a historical reality that the enormous degree of foreign (overwhelmingly) US intervention in Latin American governments and economies has been supported by their traditional conservative ""right"" side of the spectrum.
But the reforms implemented recently aren't necessarily those only of leftists and socialists -- Argentina's reforms to leave the stupid and nation-destroying policies prescribed it by the IMF have been embraced by right-wing businessmen as well, and the economy has prospered.
So, in a context in which the rejection of foreign domination has mostly been seen as leftist, then Latin America's recent more independent policies seem leftist as well."
"Despite what some of the commenters seem to think, this is not a balanced article. It was written very much from a partisan point of view.
""Hungary is currently facing two scandals. A western-owned corporation tried to distribute rotten meat carrying forged expiry labels. Then it was revealed that a German firm had transported thousand tons of domestic garbage to illegal Hungarian depots. This was shocking news for Hungarians"". The only major scandal Hungary has faced in recent months was a result of Gyurcsany's leaked speech. I don't see any Hungarians demonstrating in Kossuth Ter against western coroporations at the moment, so I can only assume that they are more pre-occupied with trying to oust the PM from power, or worrying about tax increases and the forthcoming rise in the cost of gas. Mr. Hegyi, how can you be so obtuse as to ignore events caused by your own party? As to the scandals you do mention - they are dwarfed by the numerous instances of Hungarian-owned companies that produce sub-standard food and try to sell it to gullible Hungarian consumers, and Hungarians themselves are responsible for most of the domestic waste illegally dumped by the roads and on the streets of our cities."
Capitalism about to collapse? Don't think so, not with the vast markets of China and India. Of course global capitalism will have crises (the USA may be on the brink of recession) but it is really wishful thinking to (still) believe that a capitalist collapse will usher in a new socialist dawn. People need PERSUADING that for example state ownership and control of energy resources and transport infrastructure is a good idea. "Market socialism", "mixed economy" and so on are not dead ideas. It is not the capitalist system but the neo-liberal ideology whose days may be numbered.
"The �ruthless capitalist past� is still very much the present and dominating force in the US: battling social equality, selling off the country for a quick buck, ridiculing better chances for domestic enterprises instead of outsourcing, bashing already-gutted social services � all this while waving the flag and brainwashing an entire nation better than their Nazi idols ever did.
Over 60 million citizens in the US live on under $7 a day, yet the brainwashed tout a system where three billionaires own more than 2 billion people !!! Only complete social chaos in the US will snap them out of their trance. Until then, the doped masses will continue to be manipulated into supporting the export of the worst of dog-eat-dog cowboy capitalism, whatever its current label or slant. Sorry folks, much, much misery lies ahead."
-FreedomFighter- I don't know what you are smoking but I think you should clarify what majic rathole you pulled that number of 60 million Americans living on less than $7 a day from. I live here in the US and trust me if your number is correct then George
"A pre-Christmas journalistic stocking-filler.
The analogies are facile and inapt because:
1) the new, leftist Latin American governments are not homogenous; 2) they were not imposed from the outside; but 3) all of the leaders were democratically elected despite, in some cases, outside skulduggery - and they support democracy; 4) none of them is Marxist, nor were any Marxist parties involved.
ItHasToBeBeautiful: no, it's Latin America, not South America. Latin America begins at Mexico, includes Central America, parts of the Caribbean and South America. South America begins at Colombia. Nicaragua, for example, is part of Latin America but not of South America."
The writer of the article sounds as if he wants something like Britain in the 70s. If Eastern European countries can handle that set-up better than the British, well and good. But Britain had high taxes and inflation, non-competitive industries, and more than enough people out to seize up the system or take it for a ride for political or personal ends: the initial idealism regarding the Welfare State and concensus had long passed. Hence Thatcher's election, with the results we and the East Europeans know. So, 70s Britain was not a golden era. Still, only an administration infatuated to the point of lunacy with privatisation could have come up with something as bonkers as Railtrack.
"I can understand the sentiments of Suriyothai and other eastern Europeans who are vehemently against socialism or communism, them having seen or heard of the more terrible and disastrous features of the Soviet style government system. In a couple of decades, a new generation in Hungary and elsewhere will come up who would be able to see the effects of extreme neo-classical economics driven governance, and will be able to make up their minds less emotionally about the political systems they might like.
Mind you, I am not predicting a ""red future"" like PapaKarl, even in South America (thanks, ItHasToBeBeautiful). The greatest ""moral"" revolution of Marx and other liberal (not necessarily Marxist) was to try to make the case for ""rights of all"" as opposed to ""rights of a few"", and Marx's great contribution being the advancement of the philosophy/theory that such ""rights"" ought to reflect material conditions, and not merely in ideological terms.
About 150 years later, we do see considerable re-balancing of such ""rights"" in some societies that did not endore Marxist thinking, but little elsewhere. This suggests that the algorithms developed to bring about ""equality"" based on Marxist thoughts had serious holes in them; and there are plenty of screeching bloggers here to remind you of the ones that have been absolute disasters. This also suggests that some of the theory/philosophy developed by Marx/Engels and their followers had serious holes in them... so it was often a case of bad science followed by even worse engineering. Founded on an apparent platform of democracy, eventual socialism turned to dictatorial regimes, often along feudal or dynastic lines.
I don't agree to Hegyi's assertion that all the South Americans have to do is avoid the mistakes and excesses of the Eastern Europeans. An economics, that is not directed towards furthering of large commercial interests, is essentially non-existent. Marxist economics is a joke, since it reflects none of the developments of the last 140 years (all of modern mathematics and statistics, game theory, option pricing etc etc etc etc......). Notice that these are tools, not doctrines, and Marxist/Soviet economics essentially relied on some Victorean age tools plus some romantic extrapolation. Current South American leftists are doing there own version of extrapolation, some of which might well turn out to be good romance.
Dreaming of ""the red rising Sun"", or seeing such a ""Sun"" in every pimple or goosebump, is merely dotty. Unfortunately, it is also a favorite pastime of liberals. However, you wouldn't be making a single nano-centimeter of movement towards a progressive society, until progressives learn to introspect and accept their past mistakes, and put their theories on a learning curve."
"I know this does not sound very modern, but IT WAS NOT ALL THAT BAD in Eastern Europe before 1989. And I accept challenging that ONLY from people that actually grew up and lived there. A lot of pro-Capitalist propaganda turned out just that - propaganda.
Maybe we were lucky, but we enjoyed a reasonable standard of living and social security; and let me state that we were NOT high ranking officials or secret police or other rubbish that I am expecting to pour over my statements.
One example: when my second child was born, HALF MY MORTGAGE WAS WRITTEN OFF!
And please bear in mind that the pre-1989 levels of GDP are yet to be reached by most countries of Eastern Europe and the CIS (if it still exists).
The ongoing attacks on Eastern-European economies from the arrogant West may soon have a sobering effect on most people there."
"PapaKarl in his past posts exalted his native Turkey's newly found economic success, yet the red flag flying over Turkey - it features a crescent and a star - does not seem to be the red flag of socialism. Any thoughts Papa?
PS It's amusing to see an unreformed Marxist in this day and age."
"I can't believe someone actually wrote this:
""That's how communist regimes started in central and eastern Europe 60 years ago, enforced by the Soviet Union but supported by progressive forces.""
What kind of ""progressive forces"" would support wholesale murder of opponents, environmental degradation, a totalitarian state, falsification of history, etc, etc?
And where has it ever proved possible to create a ""socialist democracy""?
Trouble is, pure socialism doesn't really tend to bring in the goods, as the last 80 years of multiple experiments (current main protagonists North Korea and Cuba, with Venezuela knocking on door) seem to have demonstrated.
Also, lets for once face the facts that social inequality in South America is a legacy of hundreds of years of Spanish, Portuguese rule and cultures (not to mention the not exactly progressive Incas, Aztecs etc) and not the fault of Nixon, Milton Friedman, Thatcher or BP.
If South America is to achieve some level of relevance and wealth it will be through basically capitalist policies like those of Lula, not through utopian rehashings of ""socialism"". When East Europeans display a visceral dislike of ""socialism"" its for a very good reason."
"A great message. Thank you. Those who have never experienced the benefits of a deomocratic socialist society may be prejudiced against the article. Those who have lived in society where health care is universal, accepted as a ""right"", public education from kindergarten to university is avaialble to rich and poor alike, crime rates are relatively low, steets are safe, income distribution is equitable, will all recognize that rabid, neoliberal capitalism, similarly to other ideologies, based on greed and exploitation, is unjust, unfair and likely to fail sooner than later. There is an absence of conscience when an executive accepts and receives a $53,000,000 bonus while concurrently ""firing"" and rendering unemployed the poor immigrant worker who cleaned his private toilet for a year.
Has anyone compared the number of wars started by Capitalist versus Socialist countries ???"
"Greek4GodsGift
I do agree with you. Maternity leave was in Czechoslovakia 90% of your income, not 64% as today. Old age pension was 75% of your income not 45% as today (the plan is to make it 15%).
In Bulgarie 55% of people is not able to heat their flat properly. 50% is not able to by a fish or meat three times for week. In Slovakia is not able to by a fish or meat three times per week 1/3.
A Polish woman must pay for a childcare 85% of her income today.
Yes, when the communist kick up family of poet Kryl from their flat and mooved them to a dump cellar, it was bad. But I do not think it was worse when a house owner at Radvanice (a small town in hills) took away from a flat windows frame during winter. One person - a women about 60 survived, her mother 91 did not survived.
Poldi Kladno was bought by some bloke, who used a credit. After some assett striping he pocketed a few millions, returned factory to the state. The factry made banckrot. 5000 people in a town of 30 000 jobless.
Trencanske Teplice are falling apart. Pavillons are rotting down, people are jobless. Does it means that people are not interested in spy any more? No, they are interested, but spy treatment is not payed any more by state health service, and they are to poor to pay it.
Today I have bought four TCM food supplements, small packages, it is enough for a week. For sombody with a minimum income - his or her week income.
A father of my friend was kick out of his job in 50s by a communist for not beeign a communist. after 1989 my friend was kick out of her job by son of the communist for being a ordinary communist party member. No change.
I was in USSR under communist. It was a misery. A young university teacher had 100 - 150 Rubles. A sport shoe on the black market was 30 Robles. Train ticket Leningrad - Moskaw was 11 Rubles. Today after all this ""good"" years with Putin, who uses oil prices to help his people and old age pension is worth more than one kilo of apples like udnder Jelcin, not the average income, nor old pension, nor student stipends are on the level of USSR. 1/3 of population have barely enough to pay flat and food, 1/3 had even less. Yes, in Moskaw are traffick jams, because some people who are rich are bying new cars.
Yes, in Czech republic are also succesful people. After wictory of the ""conservative"" party (it is not realy a conservative party, they are communist in blue) they made a party. Entry ticket - a watch 100 000 Kc, you can by for it half demolished house, many do not earn so much for a year. The place of party - Vitkov - they danced on the graves of the deads from the Great War, who were burryed there.
First person who earned 1 000 000 Kc (year) was a head of a bank, which was after saved by the state for more than 60 000 000 000 Kc. A very succesful man.
Conservative estimates are that the amount of property ""lost"" during privatisation was 1 000 000 000 000 Kc. They was our old age pensions.
When were people were floded in 1990s during great flood in Moravia, they losted houses only too discover�that they have no inssurance too. Insurance company Morava was a scam.
95% of Czech Roma are jobless, replaced on the job market by people from Ukraina (they have generaly a Universtiy degree). Yes, under communist they were on the bottom too, but they earned decent money in dirty jobs and it existed onyl one big Roma ghetto - well meant ghetto. Today they are 300 there.
Yes, it was bad that people were not able to travel under communist, beacause they were not allowed to. Today they cannot travel, because they have no money. The end result is the same.
Yes, under communist was not possible to criticize our Big brother in the East, today is not possible to criticize our Big Brother in the West.
Yes, the communist were deleting some people from history. It was wrong. But today are deleted another people from history. Jaburkova was executed by Nacis for fighting them, which was right thing to do. And persons who removed her statue because she was also a member of communist party are tthe same idiots like communist who were removing statues of Masaryk.
If you are young, you are healthy, you have a university degree and you know a few foreign languages, the life is for you better than under communist.
But if you are old, ill, without school diploma or you are s""stupid"" to want some kids ? I do not belive so."
"To gloss melancholic over a criminal system such as Communism, less than two decades after its much delayed demise, is really something I cannot look at with a straight face. The author is either a woolly-eyed dreamer, someone with a seriously short memory span, or someone who simply benefited greatly in the ancien regime (and seems to not be doing so badly even now, judging by his credentials, so whence the passion?).
The same with the other posters who laud the now-deceased 'progressive' world order: I am not sure what type of Communist dictatorship you lived in, but my own variant had the following distinguishing features: no electricity after 6 PM, no warm water at all (maybe 1 hour in the morning if we were lucky), mostly empty stores (and I mean EMPTY, imagine a huge mall with NOTHING on the shelves if you can), 2 hours of Tv shows a day featuring mostly one guy. To buy milk, one had to wake up at 4-5 AM and queue up in front of the store with the hope that the rest of the apartment building dwellers weren't early risers - there was not enough milk for all, and some people were camping out all just night in case. I, for one, have washed my face with warmed up water, heated the apartment with a cooking stove, and read a book at candle light one times too many to be able to dream about justice for all and lifing the masses out of poverty. And I lived in a nice area in a major city, I shudder to think what conditions were in the less 'privileged' places.
As to the fine distinction between Stalinism and Communism... yeah, sure, let's try again, maybe we get the right flavour of the system this time; I think NOT.
In Ecuador, the latest election was a close call, no landslide victory for 'progressives'; I was there at the time, and my Quite�a friend, by no means a member of the upper classes, was mortified that Correa would win; she had traveled to Venezuela and had very few positive things to say about Chavez's rule, and was not happy at all to see another dictator-minded airhead taking the reins in her own country. And, I was specifically talking about the Otavalo community (you may want to Google that if you are not familiar with it); I'm quite sure they do not need anyone telling them how to 'divide the wealth' because they build it themselves. There was another article in International Herald Tribune yesterday about the Mennonite communities in Bolivia, and how Morales' policies threaten to destroy their successful grassroots economic system. Theoreticians may want to go out in the fields and see what works, and how that can be implemented elsewhere; Mohammed Yunus, anyone heard of him?
A lot of the leftie posters here who grew up in the West seem to happily write their comments while smoking Benson & Hedges and drinking $7-a-cup cappucino's in Left Bank coffeeshops decked in Armani's, without having ever ventured in the real world; I'm not sure if they are rebelling against their parents, or what -- feel free to 'combat', fearless keyboard compa�eros, but allow me to not take you seriously.
And, please don't accuse me of not knowing what the capitalist/neoliberal/... system is or does; 16 years ago, me and all of my friends were at the same 'wealth' level, more or less, and we could all partake in whatever modest shopping and entertainment options we had at the time. It is hard to describe the feeling I get now when I visit home and about 1 in 5 of my friends can go out with me anytime, anywhere, 2 in 5 can do that sometimes, after budgeting properly, and the rest have to just meet me for a walk n' talk."
Absolutely fantastic album
"Agree with Ghostworld. plus every track leaves you breathless and rushing into the next. The best album I've heard in months. I have plenty of favourites from this year but Robin Hood's Bay's finest has produced a truly enjoyable album.
One of those albums to bung on repeat play, open a few bottles, get hammered and then do it all again."
Listening to it now and the apostrophes are all over the place.
This is disingenuous. If she was really serious she would have sorry for abolishing the primary purpose rule.
"_AT_Cauldron - You can't expect politicians to say sorry for anything. New Labour is Tory Lite - their policies reflect this. e.g. Instead of challenging the negative stories about immigration in the tabloid media, they pander to it.
They are so stupid, they don't realise that this turns an untruth into an accepted fact (they come here for the benefits, take out jobs, take our houses...). Then, why shouldn't people vote for UKIP or BNP?"
_AT_FCUKOFSTED - first your tag leads me to believe you are a teacher by the mention of OFSTED. Then you post the last sentence in above. If you mean that re UKIP and the bmp them please get out of teaching. Second we need old labour, the one you remember that fought for the working people of this country. Others are right we've had 33 years of right wing taking from the working people all that was earned over the previous 40 years. Time for a change.
"_AT_FCUKOFSTED -
Absolutely right. Labour cannot compete on being nasty to foreigners and will simply hand the debate over to extremiists, Pandering to accepted myths rather than exposing the lies driving them is lazy and damaging. One of the reasons I will not be voting for them."
"_AT_FCUKOFSTED - why shouldn't people vote for UKIP or BNP?
Well the BNP are actually fascists or near as damn it. The UKIP are just the new right wing and planning to introduce Direct Democracy and PR. Because there is not yet any new left wing for us to vote for, and there are only right wing political parties who stand a chance of beating FTP, then a vote for UKIP means the new left and a new politics will be along shortly. People who pass up this historic chance to vote for corporatists need their heads testing."
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"We are all fouls if we believe this lot.
After leaving an open door to +2 million
and directly contributing to the massive
pressures we now see in schools, NHS, housing
and high youth unemployment.
Now Ed Milliband aka no Direction will
sort out immigration?
I must have suffered from amnesia for the last 13 years."
"The problem with the public sector is that people at the top can easily afford to make decisions that invariably come down to cost factors or personal gain as opposed to the good of all, and which are proven to be wrong further down the line - lethally so in the case of the NHS. This is because, by the time they have invariably swivelled through a revolving door into another plumb public fat cat sector role, they are unaccountable for their past actions and decisions. This is wrong.
Clearly in public life there is a selective filtering of a certain personality type into these roles - which in itself makes a nonsense of democracy - which lacks contriteness or the ability to admit to past mistakes and say sorry. These people are making decisions and passing policies every day that impact on our lives, and they have complete and utter impunity to do so. This is the major scandal and rot at the core of public life today."
"_AT_FCUKOFSTED - you seem to be getting a hard time there from people who misread your post! I'm not sure you're advocating voting for UKIP or the BNP...
I completely agree with your post. I cannot believe that now the Labour party are jumping on the narrative being portrayed in the right wing media. The reference to the Olympics in the speech is such an awful token jester when the narrative is completely wrong.
We need to fight this narrative because it is wrong and because it ignores the bigger issues that the UK (with an aging population) and the world (with over population) is facing. The UK needs imigration to tackle its aging population and to prop up the various public services as we get older.
Of course there is a limited geographic space and resources (not as limited as the right press would claim) but this is where being part of the EU and the gradual expansion of the EU through socio-economic development plays such a key part. As the EU expands it can access populations at different stages in the cycle.
It was this energy that saw the influx of migrant workers into the UK that were, in fact, needed. But the idea is that their own countries improve through access to the free market and EU subsidies and then in time the EU has expanded and has greater resources and many return to their own countries.
If you look at Ireland (even now) before the 90s (and unfortunately again now) there was mass emigration and many Irish people came to the UK to work. As Ireland improved economically thanks to the EU many Irish people returned meanwhile Ireland experienced its own influx of immigrants. Unfortunately that trend is reversing due to a combination of mismanagement by successive Irish governments and a global financial criss but the result is Ireland remains a country which is far more developed (possibly too developed) both economically and socially as a result of the above. This has also happened in Poland and is what should happen in Romania and Bulgaria. Romania and Bulgaria also gives the EU access to lower costs manufacturing basis within the EU with EU employment law.
And so the narrative should be: a) we need immigration full stop b) we need the EU full stop c) immigration does need to be managed to a certain degree but this can only be done through the EU. The world is bigger than the UK and this is a long term issue not a short term kick all the immigrants (however way you define that term) out.
So in summary. This is the next stage in our evolution and we are better for it. Deal with."
"_AT_KenLong - I think maybe you took my last sentence the wrong way. By no means should people vote UKIP and BNP. What I meant is that the main party politicians exacerbate (instead of challenge) people's fears who then think that UKIP and BNP are right, and vote for them,
The other reason for people voting UKIP / BNP is because most of the main party politicians are sh*t. To less aware people UKIP / BNP might seem like a good alternative.
We know that UKIP / BNP are worse - thugs and criminals in some cases.
I agree entirely with the rest of what you say. We need a proper party which represents ordinary working people."
"_AT_FCUKOFSTED -

Absolutely agree. People are voting UKIP, ironically, for much the same reason they (myself included) used to vote Lib Dem. We saw the two main parties cocking up over and over again and thought ""hey, this other party's never had a chance to cock it up; you never know, they might be different"".
(Whereas I think people only vote BNP if they are either racist, or at the very least completely indifferent to racism.)
The problem is that an untested party has no track record, so you don't know how trustworthy they're going to be if they actually get any power to enact all their promises and ideologies. My guess is that, were UKIP to get into power, most of their voters would be hugely disappointed to discover that, like all right-wing parties, they only want to criminalise immigration, not to stop it."
"_AT_HowardBeale - Dear Howard,
The debate isn’t about being 'nasty to foreigners' but being realistic with the indigenous working poor. It is facile to assume that when you raise the subject of immigration that you are an extremist or racist!
In 2010 when Gillian Duffy (life ling Labour supporter) questioned Gordon Brown about immigration & raised her concerns about her daughter's ability to find a job or accommodation due to influx of migrants - Gordon Brown called her a bigot.
Professor Mary Beard, Jan 2013 on Question Time the academic dismissed claims by Rachel Bull that Boston town is being overwhelmed by migrant workers as 'myths', but Mrs Bull insists Boston is 'at breaking point'..
These are just snapshots of individuals who are at the sharp end of policies forced on us by a metropolitan elite, who refuse to listen to our concerns.
It is clear that you don’t work in the trades where day rates have fallen by as much as 30% due to Labour’s catastrophic miscalculation of assuming 15,000 Poles would enter the UK – in fact it was 750,000!!!
So if you were a plumber, painter , labourer etc you had to charge less because you were being undercut by Poles. Howard could you or your parents afford a 30% pay cut?? Migrants from Easter Europe have driven wages down – it isn’t a myth it is fact!!! Migrants put pressure on local services – local services are finite resources. There was an article this week in the Guardian about Gladstone school in Peterborough where 20 different languages are spoken & English isnt the first language for the majority of pupils. This school also has 18 teaching assistants to help cope – 18 times £16,500 = £297.000 approx paid every year . The Guardian was obviously trying to trail this as a success of multiculturism and integration . But the people who triumph this never send their children to these schools.
Poly Toynbee has 2 daughters privately educated – never been through the state system!
Diane Abbott sends her boy to the City of London School at the cost of £10k per year!
Nick Clegg confirmed this week he will be sending his boy to Oratory School (private in all but name)!!
Ask yourself why the vanguard of the liberal elite sends their offspring to schools where English is a first language and very few migrants.
If I worked for Audi and they provided me with a company car it wouldn’t be a BMW. Yet this is what the elite our doing. If anyone can tell me of a politician that send their children to a school such as Gladstone – I would be keen to know.
Everyday there is an article in the Guardian about how the ‘evil’ Coalition are cutting benefits for the indigenous poor. Yet this same group like Howard want more immigration from Europe of the poorest people who will be entitled to benefits and have never paid into our system . It really doesn’t make any sense to me welfare benefits are finite .
We can barely afford to pay benefits to people who have paid into the system yet lets encourage more people from the EU to claim
Any party that is pro-immigration will lose the next election , which is why Labour is desperately trying and failing to re-calibrate their thinking on immigration.
I for one don’t believe Labour when it comes to immigration, Labour given the chance will do the same again – let them all in. Britain is Full!!!"
_AT_ityro2012 - Thank you for such a heartfelt post. The British working class were shafted by the Labour Party and any dissent was shouted down with cries of "racist". I'm sick of the middle class lefties who come on here regurgitating the propaganda from the pamphlets they read at Uni. White working class people like me will never again vote Labour. Labour were a disaster for the UK in the 70s and again in the noughties.
_AT_dreamwatcher - "contriteness" isn't a word. You should have written "contrition".
_AT_ityro2012 - Thank you, a clear, polite, concise, evidenced and emotion free post ...
"_AT_konstantina2 - ""contriteness"" isn't a word
Nouns are words. You should have written something else."
"_AT_ityro2012 - ""In 2010 when Gillian Duffy (life ling Labour supporter) questioned Gordon Brown about immigration & raised her concerns about her daughter's ability to find a job or accommodation due to influx of migrants - Gordon Brown called her a bigot""
Gillian Duffy's connection between her daughter's difficulty in finding a job and immigration are WRONG. Please see the links below.
The lack of housing and jobs is NOT the fault of immigrants but the fault of (Thatcherite) government policies which closed factories and stopped councils building houses.
As for your point about competition for skilled services, I can sympathise with you but it is a free capitalist market idea. Ironically people against immigration often want more free markets and less state control. You make your bed…
Overall I don’t think there are many people who would reasonably argue against the fact that immigration has a net positive impact on the country.
Please check out the facts in the links below rather than believe the pro free marker, capitalist Daily Mail and other tabloids.
""Immigrants 'do not get unfair access to social housing' - http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/ihstory.aspx?storycode=6505360
""Queue jumping immigrants' are a myth, says study- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/queue-jumping-immigrants-are-a-myth-says-study-1724453.html"
"_AT_KillickThere - The British working class ARE shafted, but by the right wing media because they publish stories which divert attention away from the real issues.
Labour policies might have been a disaster but nothing compared to the Thatcher policies (continued by Blair) of privatisation and deregulation of banking. Our utility bills go up much more than inflation, whilst the service gets worse. The City, which Thatcher championed, has destroyed the future of the country.
I won't vote New Labour but for different reasons to you."
_AT_FCUKOFSTED - Bollocks, we were shafted more by the left. The shipyard I worked in is now shut. One Friday my shop steward came to me and told me to slow down as I was going to do someone out of weekend overtime if I finished the job before Friday finishing time. We had a closed shop and were always walking out. The unions destroyed manufacturing by making us unproductive. Then I worked as a plumber until I got undercut by the Poles. You believe what you want but the left shafted the white working class in this country and destroyed OUR future.
_AT_KillickThere - The words you use say a lot about you.
_AT_FCUKOFSTED - Another middle class lefty who doesn't really like the white working class he claims to care so much about. Who'd of thunk it?
_AT_KillickThere - Would I care about the black working class? If yes, then why mention white?
"Ye' right, like anyone believes a single word.

Unless they form a Coalition with Cameron and Clegg of course.
No change there then."
_AT_SmokeThis - Immigration, just like the economy, are areas where the working class will never trust Labour again. The sight of Balls and Harman on their front bench is a massive vote loser.
"_AT_SmokeThis -

...really? You think Labour have no chance of winning the next election?"
"_AT_getoutofmydreams -
Not a chance in hell. Just look at the wreckage of a country they left behind the last time.
When they allowed dead bodies to be piled in the street during the Winter of Discontent, it took eighteen years for the public to hate the Tory's so much they eventually picked Labour instead.
It will be several decades before anyone trusts Labour again.
Let's face it, they couldn't even do a child's paper round without inspiring division and hate."
"This is a massively cynical stunt to get a few UKIP stragglers, 
I fully expect when they come back into office for immigration to start rising towards their magical 1/4 million figure."
"_AT_josolsey - Whatever Labour's intention, it's their actions that count.
Party members are sick of this country importing huge numbers of scabs from overseas, driving down wages and undermining the union movement.
And if it steals some thunder from Cameron, good! He's an arsehole!"
"_AT_josolsey - and steal some thunder from the tories who have actually reduced net immigration by about 100000 a year.
Largely by turning the country into an unappetising dystopia, while seriously contemplating an overseas advertising campaign - the central message being, how shitty the UK currently is."
"_AT_josolsey -

By dramatically cutting foreign students, undermining our world-leading higher education sector.
And by screwing the economy. Look around you, the unrepaired roads, the boarded up shops and properties, the rising numbers of British homeless on the high street. It's not exactly Eldorado any more, is it?"
"_AT_rightScruff -
Mmmhh, me thinks your alias should be ""leftScruff"""
"_AT_rightScruff - Actually, I sick of them failing to make the argument that people - human beings - should have the right to live, work and fall in love anywhere they wish. A plastic Happy Meal toy has more freedom of movement that most people on this planet.
I'm sick of the fact that this country has been turned into a money laundering facility for the super-rich, that so-called Nom-doms live here but don't pay taxes, that successive UK government have provided off-shore facilities for tax avoiders, that bankers (who 'create' wealth like leeches 'create' blood) are supported at the public expense.
And I'm sick of the fact that we workers fight amongst ourselves when their Mickey Mouse economics fuck up."
"_AT_clutterdaddy - You've properly presented the argument, of course; ""clutterdaddy"" has not.
Unfortunately you're in the minority and what's worse is that you've presented your argument rather dispassionately with actual intelligence and not any real prejudices.
Which is precisely why your point of view, as totally legitimate as it is, will never get anywhere."
_AT_Ed50 - Aren't foreign students attending universities up 3%? The cut's have been made in those that attend colleges, probably the east end visa factory variety in some cases. Besides Labour's policy was 50% Britain's going to university, but if foreign students are taking the skilled graduate jobs, what are all those British graduates supposed to do? If they take unskilled jobs, where does that leave school leavers with no qualifications. Miliband says he welcomes skilled but not unskilled workers in his television address.
_AT_clutterdaddy - I meant to direct that at "righScruff."
"_AT_josolsey - Firstly, if you read the article before commenting you will see that the ""reduction"" in net migration is yet another smoke and mirrors trick by this criminally insane government.
Secondly whatever neo-liberals say, free access to unskilled foreign labour to drive wages down is the main foundation of their whole political philosophy. Surely you would know this, if you voted for them? Any rhetoric by the right about reducing unskilled immigration is just that. Empty rhetoric.
Thirdly Ed Miliband has been saying exactly the same things published here since he became leader and before (the Blue Labour discussion gives a pretty enormous hint http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/soundings/Labour_tradition_and_the_politics_of_paradox.pdf).
Proper immigration regulation is essential to any sort of socialism, but would destroy any neo-liberal/capitalist approach to the economy.
We need to start teaching politics in our schools!"
"_AT_josolsey -
The Tories' policies aren't cutting the kind of immigration that actually hurts the working class - i.e. those who come looking for unskilled work and will take sub-minimum wages. They're just reducing the number of students and making the country less appealing to those at (for want of a better phrase) the higher end of the market.
As with so many such things, they base their policies on popular misconceptions and do anything to make the stats fit, but in reality, they only want to demonise immigrants, not stop them coming. Without a steady stream of people willing to work for less and less money, Tory economics doesn't work. Plus it provides a handy excuse to undermine hard-fought-for employee rights."
_AT_FreedomMann - Err. Nobody knows who you are replying to.
"_AT_IJMO1 -

Another common Tory myth is that foreign students regularly stay on in the UK and take our jerbs.
Of all the foreign students that I studied with at university, I only know of one that stayed here; one other, an American, tried but was denied a VISA despite already having paid employment.
(Obviously this is only anecdotal evidence, but whenever figures are cited there is always someone cued up to say ""well, the reality is"", so whatevs)
I'm aware of the factory colleges, but the Tories' attempt to crack down on them was like political carpet-bombing - it affected vastly more people who weren't abusing the system that those who were, and as with benefit fraud and any number of other issues they have ""tackled"" in this manner, ignores the fact that those who work the system will still work it no matter how draconian you make it for genuine applicants.
And of course, as has been said already, it would be foolish to imagine that Tories do not welcome unskilled immigrants. Immigrants are basically what they wish every native worker was - rootless, financially precarious, unaware of their rights, willing to work for fuck all."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams - 21% of foreign students are still here after five years and the government doesn't know how many of the remainder have left because their are no exit controls. The vice chancellors tell us that students are temporary, but a judge even let one stay because of his human right to family life, even though it was just because he had made a social life here.
http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/non-european-student-migration-uk

It was even worse before the post study work scheme was closed, as you had students working in takeaways and taking jobs from local unskilled people.
If a college achieves Highly Trusted Status by obeying the rules, it will not be closed. If a restaurant failed an inspection, you wouldn't expect it to be allowed to continue to serve pre booked customers, so why should a college. The education sector asked for the responsibility of checking foreign students, as they knew more about education, so they can't complain when they don't keep their side of the bargain."
"Is there any vile Tory policy that Labour will not adopt in order to win votes?
Bogus colleges are an issue, immigration is an issue that needs dealing with , but to ape the language of Migration Watch and the Tory right - *shudder*"
"_AT_markinmanc -
Why wouldn't Labour ape Tory policy when we all know Labour love Margaret Thatcher so.
Had a portrait commissioned so they did."
_AT_markinmanc - How else do you deal with immigration? You either let them in or you don't. It's not rocket science.
"_AT_wasson -
It must be rocket science for Labour as someone else had to tell them this. Either we let them in or we don't, but we don't need to couch the decision in scare stories"
_AT_SmokeThis - statue
_AT_markinmanc - Quite. It's sickening to see this kind of tripe. 'Red' Ed (always makes me chuckle that one) is quite possibly the biggest letdown ever. He has a chance to destroy the Tory/LibDem evil of the past few years but his utter spinelessness and timidity means he just wants to copy them....
"_AT_wasson -

Wait, you're seriously saying that you don't think it's possible to have a more nuanced system than ""LET THEM IN"" or KEEP THEM OUT""?
Christ, no wonder UKIP gets traction, if this is what people actually believe. You don't have to tackle every issue with a sledgehammer. That's not politics."
_AT_getoutofmydreams - ''You don't have to tackle every issue with a sledgehammer. That's not politics.'' ... Indeed. However it became apparent during the early years of the 'New Labour' under the Blair creature that all policy must be capable of being introduced and delivered in best red top headline 'man bites dog' style ... sadly the present crop of idiots right across the spectrum now think that this is a adult manner in which to conduct business it seems. Far too much store is set by opinion polls and personal popularity I think.
_AT_getoutofmydreams - Not sure how you nuance human beings tho - a person is either in the country or he is outside it. What's your nuance on that?
Unbelievable Cooper preaching to the coalition after her lot blew open the barn doors and created the current situation and ignored opposition calls for restraint and now trying to steal Cameron's the commitment he made in India last month and as with the mansion tax trying to present it as a labour suggestion as she, Milibandwagon and Co. lack ideas and polices of their own.
_AT_Munch50 - But business and the tories backed Labour right up to the nuts didn't they? Now they've got a vast pool of unemployment they can keep wages rock bottom and pump executive pay through the roof. Plus they can demonise the unemployed and drive benefits through the floor. Jobs a good un!
"_AT_Munch50 - "" Cooper preaching to the coalition after her lot blew open the barn doors and created the current situation and ignored opposition calls for restraint ""

I recall no calls for restraint whatsoever. It was as if there was a Con-Lib-Lab pact to get as many in as possible whilst denying any such thing in public.
Anyone who commented on the - our country is your country, can we give you money, a house, translation services, your own community centers - approach was branded as a ""disgusting racist"" by those who were determined to change Britain forever to their own ends.
Can you perhaps post an example to support your assertion?"
"_AT_jimjim1 -

Damn straight!! There are more than a few of the usual suspects on here who are decidely myopic when it comes to the subject of Tories & immigration; on the piece last week about the school in Peterborough with a virtually 100% non-English intake they were whining on about ""Labour's Open Door policy"", ignoring the fact that school was much the same before Labour even got a sniff of power!
Governments of all colours (so to speak) have been complicit in this."
"_AT_TheOneArmedBadger -
No, not ""all governments have been complicit in this"". The facts show that Labours' net migration figures are far, far higher than that of the Conservatives.
Net migration over a 12 year period (for ease of comparison) :
1985 -1997 384,000
1998 - 2010 2,428,000
(Source : ONS, Long term migration into and out of the United Kingdom)
It would not be unfair to say that Labour did have a comparatively ""Open door"" policy. I suspect the populace strongly suspected this, despite the inferences of racism (when the main concern was probably volumes) if the topic was raised. Labours' actions appears to have put downward pressure on wages, and increased demand for the NHS, housing and transport. The main losers of Labours' immigration policy have probably been the less well off, hence they have (belatedly) admitted that their policy was wrong.
(BTW, of course Labour have also previously apologised for their disastrous economic policy :
""As I have said before, for the part that I and the last Labour government played in that global regulatory failure, I am deeply sorry""
Ed Balls, as reported on BBC report 12 September 2011. N.B. ""global regulatory failure"")."
"_AT_5Chelsea -

Of course they have all been complicit, to claim otherwise is preposterous. Last week, under the article on the school in Peterborough, there were numerous comments blaming that particular problem at that particular school on ""Labour's open door policy""; except, of course, that school was in much the same position back in 1996 when my son went there, and had been like that for a good few years - so, unless you are claiming that Labour's policy acted retrospectively, then Thatcher & Major's governments were complicit.
I'm not denying that the scale of the problem seems to have increased under Labour. However, it does seem to be forgotten by many (somewhat conveniently) that a big part of that problem was caused by free movement within the European Union agreed as part of the Maastricht & Amsterdam Treaties; please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't beleive it was a Labour Government in Office when they were negotiated (although Labour did sign the latter) - so, rightly, Labour can be attacked for allowing so many in, but only if we condemn Major's Government for rubbish negotiation skills in not putting in more safeguards. Complicit & equally culpable.
You are quite right, Ed Balls has apologised for Labour's part in the global regulatory failure; that doesn't mean Labour caused the whole thing does it? And when is Gideon going to apologise for having turned Labour's fragile recovery into a triple dip recession?"
We know the last Labour administration got immigration wrong because we know what policy objective lay behind it - rubbing people's noses in 'multiculturalism'.
"_AT_kvlx387 -
How would you define ""multiculturalism""?"
_AT_getoutofmydreams - How do you define coathanger?
_AT_fasttak - How do any of us define supercalifragilisticexpealidocious?
"UKIP votes.
Nothing more."
"It is fascinating how political parties will spend all their time trashing people who disagree with their flagship policies: sometimes to the extent of questioning those who disagrees intelligence or even worse accusing them of being racist/bigots etc.
Then one day they wake up - feed their chosen newspaper a press release article about how they got it wrong all along. But and huge but at that, the fact is the conversion happens in a speech which is more designed to say now listen to us because “this time we know best"". See the debate on the Single Currency (Elite), Immigration (Left) or Minimum Wage (Right) as great examples.
None the less despite Labour's shift on this issue, there will be still some, especially on CIF, rolling out but immigration is a ""net"" benefit or immigration stimulate growth. There are two big problems with these two statements one ""net"" is an average and the benefits of immigration are not evenly spreads. There are, like all economic activity, winners and losers.
As for the 2nd point, if immigration was such a simple spur for economic growth (by extension population growth) then I would expect China not to have a one baby policy because it restricts their growth and two all countries (developing or otherwise) would be competing for immigrants (more people = more growth). I would also expect such believers to also be fighting for a policy of paying people to have more babies (sounds very 19th century to me). We do not see this because people on this point fail to see the difference between per capita growth and growth!
Where I come from, many people could see the negative effects of immigration ten years ago......so overall this topic shows why I am a fan of more referendums. Take these decisions out of the hand of the Elite and party politics and let the people decide more."
After years of Labour pointing and yelling, 'Racist!' at anyone who even dared raise the issue of immigration, excuse me for finding this Damascene conversion less than wholly convincing.
_AT_ColonelLestrange - You don't do your case any justice by exaggerating it.
As a member of the party and Unison branch secretary, I applaud this move
"_AT_rightScruff - Well Hurrah for that!
You must be really important.
A privelage to have your support sir."
_AT_rightScruff - baaa...
_AT_rightScruff - As a member of the party and a Unison member you make me feel ashamed. Which branch are you secretary of?
"_AT_clutterdaddy -
None of your damn business. I represent my members, not you. Idiot."
"Welcome to the UK a place run by Gangmasters, Agencies ,Pimps and slum landlords.
Enjoy no access to justice, unions or proper health care, face benefits that no longer stave of hunger while paying taxes from it for empty rooms.
We are being turned into a third world nation so that the uber rich bankers and multi nationals can create an internal Empire full of hungry people forced to disregard Health & Safety and live on the pennies paid by employers that ignore the minimum wage!
Its the poor that are moving around and its the poor that will clash with the poor as the situation boils up toward their need for a Savior and it won't be Christ or his arch angel the Trussell Trust, it will be a straight talker with a skinhead bodyguard versus the few that can retain their morals despite the hunger and destitution.
What is coming is outside the powers of those that have created it"
_AT_basicvoice - I would draw the dividing line between the haves and have nots somewhere further South than the CEOs and plutocrats to include a large slice of those who read and work for The Guardian.
It's unnerving that the joke policy "make the UK shitter so people won't want to immigrate" seems to now be an accepted excuse for our right-wing overlords committing all the abuses that they, purely coincidentally, have always want to commit.
Using their own yardstick, that makes them bigots for even mentioning the subject?
"_AT_MrJuanCoeur -
Not really.
People have been saying ""you can't talk about immigration without being called a bigot"" for as long as I've been alive, and it never seems to have stopped them from a) talking about immigration, and b) giving you every reason to call them bigoted.
Unfortunately, a lot of people who want to talk about immigration want to talk about what the Daily Mail told them about it, and the Daily Mail has spent almost its entire print run telling people to hate foreigners. So it's hardly surprising that some of that seeps in.
And yet, it can't be entirely blamed for it, because for every misguided trotting out of a bullshit statistic, there are just as many examples of someone saying ""I look around my high street and it's obvious that immigration is out of control"" (i.e. ""I can tell who is an immigrant by looking at them"").
People talk about immigration every day without being called bigots. They do this by not being bigoted and, more importantly, not founding all their beliefs on the bigotry of others."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams -

It did, eg at the last election, Brown attempted to prevent any mention of it with his cruel description of that woman as a 'bigot'.
Immigration is fine if you're an immigrant, an employer wanting desperate cheap labour, a landlord, or a rich middle class type who wants a nanny or au paire they can pay in cash, etc etc.
Not so good if you have to compete with them in a country with millions of unemployed and a housing shortage."
"_AT_MrJuanCoeur -

Meh, he said it in private and was caught out. Hardly ""cruel"", especially when compared to what the likes of IDS say in public and on the record about the poor.

I am none of those people you described and I still don't have a problem with immigration. I think it's good that people want to come to this country, and I think it's good that we encourage them.
I think it's bad that our right-wing nod along with feigned sympathy to those who regurgitate tabloid lies about benefit tourism - convenient for them as it means they can agree with the lies that they would like to tell themselves. And I think it's bad that there is a certain quarter of the population willing to believe that everything is the fault of immigration, because it lets the actual culprits off the hook completely and goes no way towards solving those problems.
It bugs me that people complain about the housing shortage but constantly vote against building new houses. It's like they prefer complaining fruitlessly about immigration to actually fixing a problem that exists. Which, let's face it, they do. The right-wing loves immigration; it just doesn't like immigrants to be too comfortable, because then they might stop letting themselves be exploited."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams -

Who does that? I don't remember it ever being much of an issue at election time, both of the major parties believe in leaving it to the private sector and the market, while encouraging the decline of council housing.
ie it's surely more that there's nobody to vote for who supports building more homes.
Rather like the EU, which we've never had any real choice about, because all the parties likely to ever get elected are in favour.

Why? In a country which has mass unemployment, immigration lowers wages and helps to perpetuate joblessness, which in turn is a burden on other taxpayers."
Shudda cudda wudda
As somone who occasionally purchases Polish and Jamaican food items from the world food aisle in my local supermarket I say the more the merrier.
_AT_TheJoyOfEssex - well of course. Imagine eating the fare of another country and simultaneously not supporting unlimited immigration from it.... sorry, what?
_AT_TheJoyOfEssex - Nice one !....I almost took the bait, guardianista's and grub eh ?
bloody hell. UKIPisation of british politics at its most blatent.
"_AT_Phos4 - Or maybe abandoning your voter base is what Labour are coming to terms with.
Alas the leftie Guardian wants to liken everything to UKIP now. New calling card."
"Step 1) Allow millions to enter country
Step 2) Force them into poor conditions and give no ability to escape poverty cycle.
Step 3) Create no new jobs for them to take, meaning any new immigrant causes one person in the UK already to add to the unemployment line.
Step 4) Harvest your newly formed ""dependents on welfare"" as your electoral staple for the next 30 years.
Step 5) Win elections."
_AT_trazer985 - Well said!
"_AT_trazer985 - You forgot Step 3A- Result of above to push large numbers of Brits out of employment and decent housing into despair.
And Step 3B- Label those affected at step 3A as racists if they complain!"
_AT_IanInOz - Here, here! And forcibly return all those of European descent currently living in Australasia, the Americas and Africa back to Europe. We can't have people wandering willy-nilly across the planet.
"How do they intend doing that? We've been told for years that the citizens of any EU country have just as much right to work here as we do.
Are they going to change those rights?

Oh no they didn't. There were plenty of people with no interest it at all.

And is that something to be proud of? That athletes around the world treat the UK as a hand place to compete for, and easy to get into.
eg the Lithuanian weight lifters who came over here to train our team, and instead usurped the members, switching nationality.
And the female athlete who had already competed internationally for 2 other countries, then joined our ludicrously named 'Team GB'"
Too little too late, you cannot deport terrorists how the hell are you going to revert this colossal f**k up in Britain's history
"_AT_London3000 - All of Britain's history, along with that of any other nation-state, is a colossal fuckup.
Despise it and live with it."
But will she say 'Sorry- we stuffed up'?
"I'm sure that this will disgust a lot of Labour voters.
Especially those not competing for employment with immigrants"
_AT_TheJoyOfEssex - Yes, those that a better educated.
"""Last summer the entire nation gathered behind Team GB. A third of the team had parents or grandparents who came from abroad to make Britain their home. And we celebrated the strong, diverse and outward looking culture that we showed off to the world,""
What is this woman on, Yes over the decades Britain has changed and maybe for the good., The Indians that came here during the 70s and 80s is an example, many they took very little from the state whilst establishing businesses here, paying tax and giving birth to children whom many went to university and now in decent jobs paying tax and giving back.
But we are talking about 2000 -2013 a decade where Britain has completely changed for the worse, we've had 2 recessions and yet free entry from Europe is uncontrolled and regulated, we have high youth unemployment, people living off welfare and in fact many living rather well off it.
Immigration can have it's benefits but when it's uncontrolled and there is no policy on how many this country and economy needs then we have a problem, which is what we have now - A MASSIVE PROBLEM"
_AT_London3000 - Lies.
"i don't believe a word of it. They will say anything to get votes and do precisely the reverse when they get into power. All three parties are the same and this quote from Oliver Cromwell sums them up perfectly:
'Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money'."
Too little too late. Housing, jobs, schools etc. when my parents arrived here in the late 1950s, they spoke and read English. They integrated with the community. We were raised Catholic and went to catholic school. Didn't know anything about multiculturalism. Now I am asked to show my passport. demonstrate that i have links to a community i was born and educated in, where my parents retired and where my father has his precious allotment. For labour supporters and voters like my father, this immigration policy is too little too late. His grandchildren struggle to find part time work in shops and restaurants. And please don't comment that British kids are lazy etc. it simply isn't true in all cases. The Labour Party seemingly have no shame in their grubby attempt to get votes.
_AT_satchelmouth - So it was OK for your parents to migrate here but not others. Hypocrite.
"_AT_satchelmouth - most of the Poles and Hungarians who come here under EU rules speak and read English rather well - in many cases better than the indigenous.
You won't find too many Poles who read The Sun."
_AT_skoobysnax - I don't think what I've said is hypocritical at all. On the contrary. My parents were invited here to rebuild the country following the devastation of the Second World War. The contribution made is always overlooked. Don't forget the colour bar that restricted many West Indians from working in skilled jobs and the notices which read No Blacks, No Irish and No dogs.
_AT_satchelmouth - Well, I find immigrants and the children of immigrants complaining about later waves of immigration hypocritical and frankly rather despicable. It smacks of 'we got in, let's defend our gains and keep others out'. Sorry, but as the son of an immigrant that's how I feel about your comments.
_AT_Gegenbeispiel - ESOL classes have loads and loads of E Europeans some of whom arrive hardly speaking a word. Good on them for coming to the (free) classes, but it's not true that most arrive speaking decent English. They don't read The Sun because they can't (like all low level English learners) - the idiomatic language, passive voice headlines and phrasal verbs are very hard to understand.
"_AT_suziebee - >""They don't read The Sun because they can't (like all low level English learners) - the idiomatic language, passive voice headlines and phrasal verbs are very hard to understand.""
Strange, I was taught (in the mid-1980s) that avoiding all these things was exactly what good English required.
The Sun's English is the purest crap. The last thing we want is to teach immigrants that."
_AT_Gegenbeispiel - You were told to avoid the passive voice, idioms and phrasal verbs? Most peculiar. English without these must be rather dull! I can't imagine anyone, in any language, avoiding idioms (not all languages have passives and no others have phrasal verbs that I know) - they enrich every language. And passive is a fairly formal construct which lends itself well to headlines by allowing you to drop the subject, used in broadsheets too.
_AT_suziebee - it was a "simpler English" campaign at Bell Labs, where I worked, circa 1986. There was a [Unix] program, style, which determined the reading age a piece would need. Anything over 14 would not be authorised for publication, internal or external, even in high level engineering and science journals read by PhDs and PhD students. It was painful - very painful, since at school (in the early 60s) nothing other that 3rd person past passive was acceptable in lab reports - but I was "reformed".
_AT_Gegenbeispiel - Drat, "other that" => "other than"
_AT_Gegenbeispiel - Sounds...mental!
Wow - so Labour DOES have a policy? And the fact that it is all their fault has been covered many times. What Yvette doesn't refer to is the fact that it was entirely intentional - flooding the UK with the worst kind of unemployable immigrants, so they would vote Labour. The architects of this situation should be jailed indefinitely.
"Another day another band wagon ? What next offering a referendum on EU membership ? This is just a stunt to get votes.. It's not as if the electorate believe any of it.
The time to do something was when they were in government and allowing uncontrolled immigration whilst denigrating anybody who raised concerns about the strains on public services;housing and communities as a ""racist"" and closing down the debate."
The words 'closing', 'stable door', 'horse' and 'bolted' spring to mind.
Never forget Neather.
"_AT_tellymucus - and apparently Jonathan Portes, who has his article in CiF at the moment, was associated with that report:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222769/Dishonest-Blair-Straw-accused-secret-plan-multicultural-UK.html"
Sorry Labour, but you can't expect anyone to take you seriously- we have spent ten years being insulted and ignored on this issue and now you expect to lead from the front. Hardly a Damascene moment- more an Eastleigh moment and a policy that will evaporate into the ether as soon as it suits you.
We are all racists. How dare the working class own their own homes? Damn them. damn them lots! those awfull truck drivers and bus drivers and cleaners.....how dare they wish to have nice houses! screw them, we will import loads of people to drive down their wages and push up their housing costs...(snigger) we can force them into welfare dependancy and if any one of them dares to question the way things are well they are racist little englanders and we hate them. Now then, this plumber oik that I am paying less for than an english chap? will he take cash in hand?
_AT_bunkendrum - Great job at self-projection there.
"Western Europe, the USA, Australia and Canada are the only destinations for the world's deprived who seek a better life. Travel has become easier and as borders open illegal immigration, a mafia controlled business, has exploded bringing hundreds of thousands to enter our countries with no papers or financial resources. Western Europe is also the magnet for poorer people from eastern Europe looking for non existent jobs and social benefits. Economically Europe can no longer afford nor needs people from outside the European Union in already overcrowded countries. This is not racism but common sense. When the laws of a country are abused and no longer respected it can only lead to cultural divisions, social unrest, crime and anarchy.
There needs to be a rethink on immigration. Economic growth has made many more countries in Asia, South America and Africa wealthier and they should share the burden of taking in people from their own continent whether asylum seekers or economic migrants. El Dorado does not exist."
"_AT_peterfieldman - Actually Australia isn't. They have a sensible immigration policy and only let in skilled workers where they have a shortage. Plus they have a massive country, small population, lots of resources, attract people from the 1st world as opposed to the 3rd and make them integrate.
In Britain we did the opposite."
"""We got it wrong, let us try again"" seems to be Labour's electoral slogan.
It says much of British politics that people have to chose between the proven failures of the Conservative Party and the proven failures of the Labour Party. Each has a clear, demonstrable track record of calamity. Yet millions queue up to support them?
Imagine deciding between two doctors, each with a fatal record in surgery or flying with two crash prone airlines or dining in two restaurants known to serve up dishes contaminated with fecal matter. It's hardly a choice is it? Worse, there are almost no alternatives beyond fringe nutters like Farage or Galloway."
"Happy to let the finance and manufacturing sectors export money and jobs to some of the most brutal regimes around the world, forcing low wages and putting the poor in the UK out of work, the politicians are happy to stop people moving to their country when they have finished wrecking the rest of the world.
Why are they still not sorting out the finance sector, the source of all the problems, instead of picking on the young, forced to leave their homes?"
"Capitalism and the Free Market.
Free Movement of Labour is the Right of Everyone.
For the Labour Party to suggestmigrants is something that shou a point’s based system to curb low-skilled ld be implemented is verging on Racism.
Just how low is this Party going to go to get votes.
The Tories and their U.K.I.P. buddies are shouting that we should blame immigrants for everything—from low pay to long NHS waits, to lack of housing, but it’s the Tories’ austerity plans, not migrant workers, that hit the poorest and the most vulnerable.
The cuts deliberately target people with disabilities, and the Tories’ new “bedroom tax” is designed to have you evicted if you have a spare room.
Across Britain people are getting together to say they have had enough.
Civil service workers this week voted for walkouts, this is the way to beat the trash at the top.
The Labour Party instead of cowing to the right wing press should Demand that The National Minimum Wage is implemented by Law."
_AT_Radicalyoubet - so we should ignore immigration because there are other problems. A particularly desperate argument- "but what about....instead?"
_AT_Radicalyoubet - you'd have us with the economic status of Greece. The loony left have no answer except slogans.
"Capitalism and the Free Market.

For the Labour Party to suggest a point’s based system to curb low-skilled migrants is something that should be implemented is verging on Racism.
Just how low is this Party going to go to get votes.
The Tories and their U.K.I.P. buddies are shouting that we should blame immigrants for everything—from low pay to long NHS waits, to lack of housing, but it’s the Tories’ austerity plans, not migrant workers, that hit the poorest and the most vulnerable.
The cuts deliberately target people with disabilities, and the Tories’ new “bedroom tax” is designed to have you evicted if you have a spare room.
Across Britain people are getting together to say they have had enough.
Civil service workers this week voted for walkouts, this is the way to beat the trash at the top.
The Labour Party instead of cowing to the right wing press should Demand that The National Minimum Wage is implemented by Law."
_AT_Radicalyoubet - In a few years the last immigrants will be queuing up to leave the country while the Tories and Kippers cheer - and then they'll look around at the wasteland they've created to make it happen; and find it's damaged beyond repair.
"_AT_Radicalyoubet -

So ""radical"" are you that you basically line up behind the bosses and ruling class to support pouring scabs into the labour market.
Wake up, idiot"
_AT_Radicalyoubet - Only people who wanna come work here get that right, it seems. And Free Movement of Labour is a central plank of right wing economics as a way of bringing down wages.
You can imagine this lot sitting around a table discussing UKIPs popularity and then....coming up with completely the wrong conclusion. People don't vote UKIP because of immigration and Europe they vote UKIP as they aren't Labour, Conservative or Liberal.
U-turn. Again.
_AT_Choller21 - Grins
Apology? For what exactly? There's nothing any party can do about migrant workers coming from the EU and essentially that's the crux of the matter. In my town a well known manufacturer uses only Polish workers all on minimum wage via an agency in Poland. Of which they have fewer employment rights. If they say something or try to organise themselves they are not "invited" back. This is what they should apologise for! Cheap fucking labour that undermines the locally unemployed of which they also left to rot! And the rotten coalition is just carrying on with the same policy blaming the EU. There are more agencies in the UK than that of Germany, France and Italy.
_AT_Ianhar - they could have delayed the influx of Poles. In that way the immigration would have been spread around the EU. We now have over 1 million of them on this crowded island.
_AT_acewindsor - In 2004 existing EU states had the right to block immigration from the new A8 states (Poland etc), almost all chose to do this except the UK. All of those who wanted out of Poland etc had very little in the way of choices of were to go so they all came here instead of being evenly distributed through the dozens of EU counties.
_AT_acewindsor - at the time maybe, but in the end those countries that opted out were all given only 5 years grace then they cannot as in 2014 with Romania and Bulgaria. Our argument, and we are not the only country, is the benefit migrants. Germany has 150,000 Romanians and Bulgarians in the country surviving at the moment only on child benefit! They are waiting until 2014 when they have full access to unemployment and housing benefits! This can't be right why should Germany be responsible for the benefits of these people? If they should then sensibly should be at the rate of their own country.
_AT_Ianhar - It was 7 years not 5.
_AT_Ianhar - yes ,it is right because the EEA is supposed to be a single integrated economy.
"_AT_Ianhar - The answer's not to restrict immigration but to strip employers of their right to discriminate by using agencies presenting only non-local candidates. There may already be regs on the books to prevent ethnic origin discrimination, if so the govt. needs to sue the employers.
TULRA and other UK employment laws [still] have some protections for those ""not invited back"". The TUC needs to get involved to stamp out this ""agency"" practice."
_AT_Ianhar - 150,000 Romanians and Bulgarians surviving only on child benefit? Please do you have any sources for this?
_AT_ratiocinate - the regional Mayoral assembly ( Germany) presented their report to the EU
"I used to think immigration was a good thing, and made our country culturally richer.
Now, I really don't think so.
I was at Tesco one time when I noticed that the entire row of checkouts were obviously filled with women from the same country, because they were all talking to each other in the same language.
It was quite amusing and interesting, but then at the same time, I thought, ""why have we imported these half dozen women to serve people at Tesco?""
Importing low skilled workers does increase unemployment here, and lowers employment conditions for low skilled positions. I'm sure it also doesn't help the countries that people come from, when people leave en masse to go and be cleaners and shop workers in Britain: their own internal economy should be developed so they can have a good standard of living there.
Immigration is a fact of human history and will continue to be so, but I have come to believe that the large scale economic migration done today is not beneficial for anybody but company bosses getting cheap labour."
_AT_LepidopteraND - Let's not forget that the current economic crisis was created by banks and the uber elite not poor migrant workers.
"_AT_skoobysnax - Well done for missing my point.
I'm not blaming ""poor migrant workers"" for anything."
_AT_LepidopteraND - You are saying Tesco pays immigrant checkout assistants less than native checkout assistants ?
"I've said this before but I despise the political/media collaboration of leaking speeches in advance to journalists in return for uncritical coverage. Instead of ""X is set to say tonight in a speech..."", how about some honesty, perhaps: ""In exchange for uncritical reporting, X's spin doctors again provided us in advance with a transcript of a speech they are scheduled to give tonight which will apparently say that...""
Back to the topic, I'd welcome a sincere apology but this doesn't read like one. That would have said, ""sorry we got it wrong"" with no weasel ""but""s. This just reads as an insincere knee-jerk reaction to the coalition vote collapse at Eastleigh going not to Labour but to UKIP, and the tone is nauseating. Admitting what everyone already knows you got wrong, but claiming that you're still so much cleverer than everyone else and know what's best is laughable, especially when you branded as racist anyone who had suggested similar sensible measures when you were in power."
_AT_JustinCase12 - No, she simply included facts such as the expansion of the economy which required large volume immigration to augment the workforce. Now the economy is contracting so it doesn't work so well in reverse.
_AT_skoobysnax - the economy did indeed expand, as we all found out on borrowed money! But we already had 1.5 million unemployed at the time and perhaps 2 million economically inactive and 1.5 million on incapacity benefits. Labour did nothing to get any of these into work instead chucking money at them through increasing benefits. Where's the apology for this scandal?
Regulate, regulate, regulate say the left. And I agree. But they leave one factor of production out- and support unregulated labour markets by means of unlimited immigration. Why that one? Its illogical. And then they want to regulate rents and all the problems that result from this deregulation. Regulate labour in the first place and many things would be allowed to return to equilibrium- housing catch up with demand, wages increas due to eventual scarcity, etc, etc
_AT_Ilovecheesetoo - I didn't notice too much regulation of banks under Labour, or of privatised utilities.
_AT_numinous - ah yes- Nu Labour.
"In years to come, Labour's immigration folly will be seen as much a disaster for the working class as the Thatcher years.
Closing down the old state-owned industries was a crippling blow, mass immigration was the coup de grace.
This time party members need to hold their feet to the fire, make sure there's no back-tracking or U-turning on immigration policy."
Too little, too late. Immigration doubled under Labour. They couldnt resist the idea aof importing 600 000 votes a year
_AT_patcarter - Funny that because you have to be a UK citizen to vote, so you're talking bollocks.
_AT_numinous - That's not entirely true, EU immigrants can vote in both local elections and European elections in the UK both of which have political bases. They don't need to be British citizens.
_AT_numinous - eventual voters
I used to vote Labour but will not do so because they have turned my town into a province of Pakistan.
"_AT_numinous -

Immigrants aren't allowed to become British citizens?"
_AT_rightScruff - It is an extremely long and arduous long process....
_AT_democracywall - A long and arduous process that around 200,000 a year go through and are granted.
"_AT_rightScruff -
No EU immigrant takes up citizenship in order to vote in state elections.
Most of us actively avoid citizenship of the nation we live in really. We have the best of both already - right to live there, no obligation to the state.
We are already a more freewheeling lot than most, anyway, of course. We've already decided we are't going to be tied to one state. So the idea of a second is absurd."
"The Labour party cannot be trusted on immigration. It was a deliberate policy on their part to flood the country with migrants and they succeeded.
They did nothing even to delay the flood of over 1 million Poles. That is simply immigration gone mad on their watch.
Many of our cities look like the third world.
Labour does not represent the ordinary people affected by this massive change in our culture."
"_AT_acewindsor - Whilst there are plenty of legitimate concerns and issues surrounding this subject, many of which I agree with myself, making statements like ""many of our cities look like the third world"", are just unhelpful and sensationalist.
By saying that ""many of our cities look like the third world"", you mean one of two things. You are either referring to the visible face of immigration, being able to see people you consider foreign in a given city, or you are referring to our cities infrastructures, which you consider to be third world.
If you are suggesting there is a single city anywhere in England that has an infrastructure and services comparable to the third world then you're either stupid or definitely need to do some travelling.
If you're saying that the problem is that some cities ""look"" third world, the obvious conclusion is that you just object to seeing people you consider to be foreign.......which is unhelpful and opens you up to claims of racism, when actually you're probably (hopefully) just addressing a legitimate economic concern.
The language of these debates matters entirely."
"if you believe any of this garbage from this bunch of union stooges you'll believe anything.
immigration adds labour votes and union members.
luvvly jubbly."
_AT_thunderstorm - I can't see how it can since the vast majority of immigrants aren't even allowed to vote or become union members...
"_AT_democracywall - I can't see how it can since the vast majority of immigrants aren't even allowed to vote or become union members...
wrong. here's the relevant piece from 'about my vote'. eligibility to vote in uk election
â– 16 years old or over and a British citizen or an Irish, qualifying Commonwealth or European Union citizen who is resident in the UK

If you are 16 or 17, you can only register if you will be 18 within the lifetime of the electoral register. You cannot vote until you are 18
rough translation, if you're here and you have a pulse...........not sure about the pulse. maybe it's just 'if you haven't been cremated or buried'............not sure about the buried.............
i haven't checked union membership but i can't see how it would be any different having watched prentis fawning about immigrants on tv.
here's your voting link:
http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/who_can_register_to_vote.aspx
we all now know everything right."
_AT_democracywall - Anyone can join a Union! Plenty of foreigners I work with are in our teaching union.
"_AT_thunderstorm -
If Labour imported all these immigrants to vote for them, how come they, um, didn't?
Only, if you look at Labour's vote share and electoral turnout in general from 1997 onwards, it didn't increase, did it?"
"_AT_getoutofmydreams - If Labour imported all these immigrants to vote for them, how come they, um, didn't?
Only, if you look at Labour's vote share and electoral turnout in general from 1997 onwards, it didn't increase, did it?
we don't know how many voted labour. whether share of the vote changed or not proves nothing.
first there is likely intent. labour is happy to encourage immigration because immigrants are more likely to vote for the handout party.
also labour were apparently keen to 'rub the tories' noses in diversity'.
what the deluded muppets did of course was to rub their traditional voters' noses in it. spiteful stupidity often has unintended consequences.
finally, research showed th\t some 85% of immigrants were 'more likely to vote labour'.
time will always tell."
"_AT_thunderstorm -

So basically what you're saying is that you have no evidence supporting the assertion that Labour imported immigrants. You cite ""likely intent"", which is ridiculous, and a quote that I've honestly never heard before today that proves nothing.
This is not to deny that immigrants probably do vote Labour. They tend to vote left-wing in most places, because they are a) poor, b) in an ethnic minority, and c) not completely indoctrinated into voting against their own interests. They vote against the right-wing because the right-wing blame them for everything. It's not that surprising. That even 15% of them vote right-wing is pretty amazing."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams - So basically what you're saying is that you have no evidence supporting the assertion that Labour imported immigrants. You cite ""likely intent"", which is ridiculous, and a quote that I've honestly never heard before today that proves nothing.
none so blind as those that don't want to see. however your reply simply reinforces my points so i will not waste my time repeating them.
research the points you claim never to have heard before.
we all now know everything right."
"If it wasn't so tragic you could almost laugh at the irony of it.

Normaly i'd celebrate the failure of a few to force their views on the many but the utter shambles brought on us by this few is something to cry about."
"_AT_Evilvixen -
If 'Knuckle Draggers' were so ahead of the curve then, what does it make their detractors? Pond scum?"
"_AT_Evilvixen -

It is a horrible situation, really. Genuine, undeniable racists made it impossible to talk about immigration in a sensible and constructive way. Nowadays, people are constantly asserting that anyone who disagrees with them about immigration is calling them a racist. Honestly, I end up on the pro-immigration side purely because it seems to be the least massively fucking childish, but the real crime here is that the ""centre"" has been dragged so far to the right that anyone who doesn't want all immigrants to be nailed into fridges is seen as some kind of pinko."
I do think the point has to be made though, that a lot of people who want to "talk about immigration" actually are racists, or at the very least are parroting the thinly-veiled opinions of racists.
Politicians don,t care if something is honest or not.
"EDs Party Political ""abverp"", needed some mentholyptus last night didnt it?,
Talk bout closing the stable door when the lasagne had bolted it, was just an ill judged, cynical attempt to claw a few votes back and a waste of union cash.
It was beneath even Blair at his, ""Im just an ordinary war mongrel"" best."
"The left examine their navels again. ""We got it wrong!"" they say.
You always bloody well do!"
"_AT_acewindsor -
So are you criticising Labour for being the only political party that makes mistakes, or the only political party that admits it?"
"was in my local health centre on Tuesday and the staff at the desk said to each other ""look at the bloody queue"" as it was about three minutes away from closing time and there was a serious queue of people to be seen. 50% of the people in the queue were Romanians who didn't speak any English
my area has been absolutely flooded with these people, crime has gone up to the extent that this area is now the murder and violent crime capital of Glasgow. The main increase in crimes though is crimes against women, violent assaults, sexual assaults, rape and murder. The eastern europeans have also brought child prostitution with them and there's low rent, third rate eastern european gangsters standing in groups on every street corner now
the wait for a housing association house for them is two months, source for this is one of my Polish classmates at college who was given a house around the corner from me by the same HA which made me wait fourteen years for a house in the area I grew up in, even an attempted murder carried out against me in the area I was living in didn't get me enough points for a house here
I do not believe a word which comes out of any Labour politicians mouth and their disenfranchising of the UK working class has led directly to the nightmare which is the current UK government
shame on Labour and their opportunist lies"
_AT_JHCinDub - and for the record, prior to this influx this area was a tolerant, multicultural area and it was the best thing about it. The only people who have anything good to say about the EE's here are those who make money from them and don't live in the area
"_AT_JHCinDub - I am English but have just read that Scotland's culture minister, Fiona Hyslop, has just celebrated news of a record population count in Scotland, and has issued a press release praising the attraction of Scotland to immigrants.
It is clear that your own ministers in Edinburgh think that there is not enough immigration into Scotland and is wanting much more. It is also clear that the Scottish Government believes there is no shortage of jobs,housing, education facilities or medical services for new arrivals in Scotland.
It is wonderful that Scotland is so well endowed (compared to the rest of the UK) with all the services necessary for a good standard of living, and a great shame that you seem to be unaware of this."
"_AT_JHCinDub -
Why would an attempt on your life count in your favour towards getting a house? I don't understand how it's related."
_AT_getoutofmydreams - because my life was in danger in the area I was living in
_AT_bramhall - classic newspeak, if what I described sounds so appealing to you come and live in my area, there's plenty of houses for sale, especially ground floor ones
The damage that the labour party have done to the terms and conditions of the lower paid in this country will take a generation to recover from,
"Three quarters of a million immigrants = millions of young people unable to work ever again? How does that work? Do Eastern Europeans have superhuman strength or something?
I get that this is An Issue but there is so much hyperbole and hysteria around it that I just tune out. I doubt I'm alone in that."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams - Agree entirely. Cue hysteria and sensasionalist claims about the country ""going to the dogs"", or ""turning into the third world"".
It just devalues any debate."
"_AT_TAB8 -
Had someone insist recently that the immigration figures were obviously wrong and it was probably more like ""15-20 million"". When I pointed out that that would be about 1 in 4 people he accused me of being ""blind""."
"And by the way ... The EUs use of Human Rights Law need some constructive and even application. First use it to apply the Human Rights of Women within the EU in second world countries like Italy and Turkey. That would use up the entire EU court time and budget for the next 100 years.
Let us send the terroroists home to face the music."
We are told London is no longer part of England. It is a "World City", as is Leicester, Nottingham, Bradford, Birmingham.........coming to your town next.
"_AT_acewindsor 07 March 2013 8:11am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
""We are told London is no longer part of England. It is a ""World City"",""
Mostly the same as I remember in the early 60's.
London has always been attractive to immigrants.
Like New York, Paris etc.
One of the reasons it's an economic powerhouse."
"_AT_optimist99 - Really?
I think you need a trip to specsavers sonny jim."
"_AT_acewindsor -
Ah, this old saw: these (thriving) towns and cities have immigration, and yours could be next!
That's always the trick with scaremongering: you talk up the fear of something to people who have no experience of the reality.
Shit like this might fly among the Disgusteds of Tunbridge Wells, because they have pretty much no firsthand experience of immigration, or foreigners at all, for that matter.
Whereas it can't gain any serious traction somewhere like Nottingham, because we've seen immigration, and we know that it doesn't rampage through your backstairs and eat your children.
Having lived in a large town with very little immigration and a small city with a lot, I can attest that the fear of immigration and the low-level xenophobia was generally much higher in the former than the letter. And that's fair enough really; people are naturally afraid of the unknown. What I take issue with is those who manipulate that fear for political purposes."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams - Well said, and backed up by this study http://www.appgmigration.org.uk/sites/default/files/APPG_migration-Public_opinion-June_2011.pdf from which I quote: ""Public attitudes towards migration are generally not driven by direct experiences. When voters are asked if migrants have a negative impact nationally (on jobs, crime, local services), around 60-70% say yes.
""When asked about the same impacts locally only around 10-20% reports a problem (IPSOS-MORI, 2008; YouGov, 2009). Voters seem to perceive migration as something which causes problems elsewhere."""
Apologies are cheap, they mean nothing. Labour where told time and time again the floodgates will open.
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"_AT_Supermac24 -

So basically, you want Labour to become a right-wing party under threat of ... what? You withholding your right-wing vote? I'm sure they're shaking in their boots.

I'm not sure that he did lose because of that."
I'm surprised Labour even talks about immigration. Perhaps now they have taught all the newly arrivals to vote Labour it's time for some token gestures.
"_AT_FredAstaire -
The right blames minorities - women, gays, the poor, etc. - for every single problem that arises (and by ""arises"" I mean ""is caused by their corruption and incompetence""); and then acts all hurt and huffy when we aren't seduced by that into voting for them?"
"I believe in curbing immigration. I am surprised I haven't been called a bigot or a knuckle-dragger yet.
I normally am in the Guirniad comments.
Any takers?"
_AT_acewindsor - You want to curb immigration? There's only one possible well reasoned response here- BIGOT!!!!!!!!!!!
_AT_acewindsor - Don't forget 'Tory Troll'.
"_AT_acewindsor -
It's a good job you have all these nice people around to reassure you that you would be called a bigot for saying what you just said, isn't it? Otherwise you might have to entertain the possibility that you were wrong."
_AT_Ilovecheesetoo - I love cheese too.
_AT_SOUTHERNBIAS - I'm glad. I wish you a long and happy life exploring all that cheeses have to offer.
"rightScruff
07 March 2013 7:51am


In other words get off your arse"
"_AT_Radicalyoubet -

Yeah, we actually are, every day.
Your comment would suggest to me you aren't."
"Uncontrolled immigration, Islamisation and debt was New Labour's gift to the nation. Not only should Labour apologise, they should hang their heads in shame.
When Britain exits the EU, priority housing, training and jobs should be given to those most affected by immigration vis a vi the so called 'bigots', the 'little Englanders', the 'shirkers' and the 'scroungers'. All these people need recompense for this gross act of betrayal."
"_AT_brentmeister27 07 March 2013 8:29am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
""When Britain exits the EU""
Will never happen - the most extreme case is the ""Swiss solution"" - having to comply with the rules, paying a fortune, not being officially a member and not having a vote.
The alternative is economic collapse."
"_AT_brentmeister27 -
Why would we want to leave the EU? They do what we want our government to do."
"Speeches on immigration given by Labour politicians at the IPPR should be regarded with considerable suspicion. The IPPR was intimately involved in the development of Labour’s Open Door immigration policy in the 1990s.
In 2000 immigration minister Barbara Roche gave a speech to the IPPR which, in retrospect, marked the announcement of Labour’s Open Door immigration policy. The electorate was not informed. (The speech was written by Andrew Neather who in 2009 appeared to reveal far too much of Labour’s diversity agenda.)
The 2013 speech by Yvette Cooper says nothing about controlling the Door. Indeed, the removal of net immigration target can only raise suspicions that the underlying agenda here is to let rip again."
Well it's a start for Labour. Let's see how this pans out.
"Drunk with power.
And now drunk with the prospect of more.
They are a despicable bunch of fools."
"This shows how we're soooo desperate to build houses for all these extra people:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/06/national-trust-war-british-countryside
Thanks Labour for causing this strife."
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo -
The housing situation has very little to do with immigration. There is not much actual shortage of housing; it's just priced so highly (due to right-to-buy) that the people who need to live in it can't afford to."
_AT_getoutofmydreams - if there isnt a shortage of something then it's impossible for it to be too expensive. Rents would be low in a market with over supply and so that would make purchase prices low as well.
"So even in this speech they are basically saying we will not allow the asians to stay after their ""course"" but we will open the doors to brasil and china instead....... Fucking lying pieces of shit the lot of em.
Labour did this on purpose, it wasnt an oversight they wanted the immigration and for 10 years they bought off the public and their core vote by allowing a debt bubble to grow and hide their real agenda, to create a labour client state just like Chaves did in venezuela. Bribe the poor, shout down the critics by calling them biggots and implement authoritarian control systems. (cctv and id cards) Its the way of the left, always has been always will be."
"_AT_BigB73 -
Just going to mention at this point that when I last saw you you were defending George Osborne and blasting the EU for trying to impose any kind of cap whatsoever on banker's bonuses."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams 07 March 2013 11:26am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
and your point is ????? last time i saw you you were arguing ovr 50% tax on ""other"" people was a start..."
"_AT_BigB73 -
I was arguing that the 50% tax on the highest income bracket that was in place until a few years ago was a good thing, yes. Are you saying you think that George Osborne was right to reduce it, as a surefire way to get the economy back on track, as he totally has?"
"_AT_getoutofmydreams 07 March 2013 1:31pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Personally I dont believe the governement should take more than half of anyones money be they rich, poor of middleing. I also note the evidence that applying a populist measure such as taxing the rich is actually self defeating much like the EU banker bonus cap."
"_AT_BigB73 -

Interesting. You list ""poor"" and ""middling"" incomes even though no one is suggesting that they be included. Is this, perhaps, a clumsy segue into suggesting a flat tax?"
"_AT_getoutofmydreams 07 March 2013 2:52pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Actually even though poor people pay a lower level of income tax they are directly more effected by the insidious stealth tax's that Heir brown of clownland imposed on this country ensuring that the notional rate of tax across the board is in fact over 50%. I would prefer a flat % rate of tax insteado fthe over complicated system, I would however exclude the poor and start it at above 15K, over that one rate on everything, no loop holes, no get outs , no allowances etc."
Labour pronouncements on immigration are laughable. This is the party that actively and consciously encouraged mass immigration into England, creating huge strains on schools, health and housing. They showed scant regard to the feelings of indigenous communities and it is now too late to apologise for the damage done. This speech will be full of sound bites and hollow rhetoric to ingratiate themselves with the electorate for the next election. Don't trust Labour on this issue. They have an arrest sheet as long as your arm.
"There is little point in demonising those that come to the UK to seek work. One imagines that we would all seek to do likewise if faced with similar circumstances.
I would rather see harder questions being asked of the business lobby and educational institutes. Successive governments appear to have been in thrall to these groups, submitting to their desire for a bottomless pool of cheap labour or students paying top dollar that often enter the already bloated labour market on completing their courses. This represents good business for those groups but has had a disastrous role in suppressing wages.
We now see stories of hundreds of applicants for a single job. We seem to be little more than serfs and immigration has been just one ingredient of this."
"Except there are plenty of jobs in parts of the UK, and plenty of unemployment in others.
We have a hard enough time getting the poor to move from their sofas, never mind to another city, or country."
"_AT_ToryFTW - This is a very good point, and certainly applies to Germany as well, where the prospect of moving from the relatively poor north to the prosperous south seems to terrify people. Admittedly, though, lots of enterprising and/or desperate people in eastern Germany have moved west over the past twenty years.
I'm sort of surprised to see such crass xenophobia among Guardian readers. The Poles I've met in Germany (and in Poland) all seem to be decent, hardworking, God-fearing folks. What's the difference if somebody's name ends with -ski or -son?"
"_AT_ToryFTW -

People don't want to be uprooted from places that they have roots, or to commute for hours, to get to the low paid entry level jobs that they are being pushed into by the DWP. People like you call this laziness, because it's not your problem. The Tories call it laziness because for all their rhetoric they despise community and see people solely in terms of how much money they can wring out of them.
If I were a cynic (and I so am), I would say that they are running the DWP deliberately badly so that they can supply their donors with free forced labour. They certainly do reject perfectly sensible action (e.g. working with local employment agencies?) that would help people find work, in favour of proven-ineffective hoopjumping exercises that hamper them in doing so."
_AT_Schwartzspecht - It's got very little to do with the personalities, it's about the economics.
I'm confused. In all these comments, no mention of the quisling/traitor Clegg and the liar LibDems. Surely it's all their fault?
_AT_allezwolves - Errrrr when were the Libs in office in the last government.
"_AT_allezwolves -
We Guardanistas have to take the odd breather from hating Clegg, otherwise we have no time to talk about kittens."
What happened to "rubbing the right's nose in diversity"?
_AT_HackneyGeezer - Nothing to do with diversity, all to do with social engineering the vote, especially the vote of the next generation.
"_AT_Steven Wright -
If Labour cynically imported immigrants who would vote for them (as so many claim), how come electoral turnout is so low?"

"_AT_ToryFTW -
Welcome to the Kingdom of Fear, instead of Hope we will give you Hate, instead of Opportunity we will give you the right to Blame, instead of help in adversity we will give you the right to attack those weaker than yourselves.
If you are not old, sick or poor we will accept your obeisance and in return will allow you just enough to survive."
_AT_jonny2bad - Welcome to the Kingdom of Denial... What? Oh yes, that is Ed Milibland in the corner, he's a regular here.
"_AT_ToryFTW -

Really? Because they have apologised for both of those and you're still demanding apologies. I don't see why you think they owe you anything."
Typical piece of Tory obfuscation, don't accept responsibility for own errors but blame the other. What the Tories won't say is that many of the alleged 2.2 million went to work for Tory business owners.
"Ok, so mass immigration under the last Labour government is the fault of Tory business owners for creating too many appealing job vacancies?
Genius!"
_AT_ToryFTW - The moan should be 'why was the Labour government so eager to hand the jobs created by these Tory business owners over to people from other coutries'.
_AT_redeyed - LOL if it wasn't for Labour those jobs would have gone to British workers (oh we cannot use that phrase can we as its un-European)
"_AT_Steven Wright -

Really? I thought we were all lazy and feckless and wouldn't take such jobs because we all want to be on Pop Idol.
Grow up, ffs."
"_AT_ToryFTW -
Where are the migrants employed and who is squealing about not allowing sufficient migrant workers into the UK when there are millions of unemployed UK workers and who has cut wages down to the bone and who will pay less than the minimum wage if they can get away with it."
"Just when Labour had started to pull away in the opnion polls they remind us all of their past failures.
They are diingenuous in the extreme, totally untrustworthy!"
I don't believe her.
.
"_AT_Pavlova101 -

Thank god no one does that anymore, eh?

Paranoid nonsense."

_AT_Pavlova101 - The Guardian doesn't speak for the people posting on this comments section, it speaks for the Labour party.
"_AT_Evilvixen -
How the Guardian can report this with a straight face is beyond me."
"_AT_Pavlova101 -

Is this an actual question, or are you just mudslinging?"
"""Apologising"" in public is deemed to be the modern cure all for incompetence/corruption/stupidity.
Anything....apparently ....can be forgiven - and therefore forgotten - by a gullible public when a politician gives a heartfelt apology.
This thread shows that this is a misconception."
_AT_gjlebowski - Thats cause we know that its not heartfelt an thats its a knee jerk to public opinion shifting, costing Labour votes, she and Labour would not be doing this otherwise
"Labour: the party that spent our pension pot, changed Britain's population for ever, tried to throw away England's culture, took us into an illegal war, wrecked the economy.
These people are dangerous."
Yvette Cooper admits they were wrong and what does Cameron do? He makes stupid jokes of course.
_AT_Copperson - Admitting they were wrong, years to late, is still years to late...........................................
"_AT_Steven Wright -
Admitting they were wrong years too late is still admitting they were wrong. Not that far up the page, someone was saying ""All we want from Labour is an apology"". Like, having literally just had one, they're still demanding one!
Labour should stop pandering to people like you and accept that some people in the country aren't just looking for any excuse to be bastards."
"Ahhhh the mother of all U-Turns then.
Shame they couldn't have admitted it when they were in office and people were telling them at the time of the harm they were causing.
tbh does anyone actually think they are being sincere either?
I give them a few months once there back in till there at it again."
Allowing mass immigration has entered Labours DNA!
_AT_desklamp - Migration is in everyone's DNA. We spread out over the globe because we are a migrating species.
_AT_Briar - so learned, yet not really engaging with the issue of this blog; which is about Labours' new found interest in curbing immigration. I don't know where you live, if you own your own home or rent, but if it's anywhere near London I suspect your affected. Think about that next time you're tempted to write something that doesn't really advance the discussion.
"_AT_Briar -
Spoken like somebody with no appreciation of social dynamics or culture."
_AT_Pavlova101 - spoken like a moron.
_AT_SOUTHERNBIAS - Correction, spoken like a cosmopolitan moron.
Capitalists always want free movement of labour to keep wages down and destroy power of organised labour. New Labour, when it was in power, sold us that idea with a pro-diversity message as they thought the UK wasn't 'ethnic' enough. Now we have to endure the consequences, both economic and social, of their failed experiment.
"_AT_HackneyGeezer -
And all they talk about are the economic consequences. The social consequences are permanent."
Well, I shan't be voting for Labour. I loathe racism, yet here is Labour, scrabbling in the gutter to gain racist votes. Shame on them, and those they whose votes they want.
"_AT_Briar -
They're scrabbling around to try to regain working class votes because they sold the working classes up the river."
_AT_Pavlova101 - Since when were the working classes and migrants at odds? Many migrants are working class too! All workers, of whatever origin, should be making common cause to ensure that labour capital - the capital of work, skill, talent, expertise etc, not money - gets the influence it has earned. It's the weakness of the fight to ensure everyone gets a fair wage which is at fault, and this weakness gets worse when worker fights worker on the basis of race.
_AT_Briar - you are either a recent immigrant yourself, come to the UK to enjoy the generous benefits of a welfare state designed after WWII, or an unreconstructed communist, failing to take the point that communism, wherever it has been tried, has failed miserably. Take the point and engage with the world around you; it's no good just being a trendy lefty and sitting on the fence. In that respect you're just as useless as the BNP.
Have you had your head in the sand for the last 10 years? I'm not sure how you stumbled on this story, but perhaps you should read it before commenting?
"_AT_Briar -
Yes the British working classes. These are the people who used to build our ships and mine our coal and work in our mills. Decimated in two world wars to protect imperial interests, bombed out of their homes and moved into sprawling estates, fought for workers' rights and some quality of life, but met with having their industries dismantled, then in an entirely deliberate policy by Labour, overwhelmed by people from the developing world prepared to work in sweat shop conditions who they are expected to compete with, centuries old cultures eradicated, thrown on the scrap heap, politically disenfranchised and defamed as lazy, stupid and racist."
"_AT_theendisnigh2 -

""If you disagree with me, you can only be one of the enemy.""
People like you are everything that is rotten at the heart of this country."
_AT_Pavlova101 - You only see what you want to, 1.3 million people from the subcontinent fought in the first world war in Europe to protect our imperial interests many served in the navy in WW2 , Chindits, Burmese, Gurkhas all fighting for Britain's imperial interests. After WW2 labour shortages provoked adverts in the West Indies, these immigrants worked on public transport and the NHS yes the NHS has used immigrant labour from it's conception and would not exist in it's present form without them. History and culture are far more complicated than you pretend and converge and entwine at many points.
"""Cooper will stress the benefits that immigration has brought to Britain – including new ideas, new talents and the hard work that has built some of Britain's biggest companies, sustained the NHS, kept public transport moving and expanded the science base.""
Yes human beings work and have skills. So do the English human beings who've been consigned to the scrap heap. They could have sustained the NHs, kept public transport going, expanded the science base. We are a talented and hard-working bunch of people too. We have the longest working week in Europe and the longest commutes and one of the latest retirement ages. We'd be even more inclined to work hard if we felt it was our own country and we were't expected to work like skivvies in temporary jobs surrounded by people who don't speak our language and see the system as a means to an end."
"_AT_Pavlova101 - Exactly!!! But some gov't department/business lobby produces a ""report"" every year that places some sort of figure, a value that immigration has to the british economy.
That value doesn't count how many unemployed/extra benefit claimants said immigration causes."
"_AT_theendisnigh2 -
I work on large projects, including government ones, and no exaggeration, 3 quarters of the contractors are from abroad. I get to know people's motives. The Australasian ones generally see it as a cash cow and drive the daily rates up, the ones from the developing countries sometimes see it as an avenue to a permanent visa so have an interest in prolonging the projects. And of course some of the work is outsourced to India, and frequently has to be redone back here. So who is calculating the millions of tax pounds that get wasted in this way?
No doubt the Guardian will remove this comment, but it's a scandal I've witnessed and they ought to be exposing it."
_AT_Pavlova101 - what is your definition of English?
_AT_Pavlova101 - politicians here are career politicians with no values. I know that in France the politicians there wouldn't midn taking tough decisions that they felt were 'right' or 'good' for French society. In the UK I get the feeling politicians pay too much attention to the 'trickle down effect' - like wiping the bottoms of rich people is somehow a valuable service sector!
"_AT_MissIndia -
A person who comes from England. Comes from, not lives in."
_AT_Pavlova101 - I have sympathy for your resentment but part of the problem are the times in which we live. Ukip sell the lie that if we end migration and leave Europe we will enter a new golden era, this of course is simplistic rubbish designed to appeal to those who are struggling and need someone to blame. The post war period of prosperity and growth will not return that was a short, golden era when even tories went a bit socialist and was destroyed by Brits taking advantage and working the system. If your in any doubt that the default position is one of misery and hardship then read Robert Tressel's The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists set just before the first world war and published after the house painter author's death from tuberculosis.
_AT_Pavlova101 - I totally agree!
This country was an empty wilderness after the ice sheets drew back. Without mass migration, there would be nobody here.
"_AT_Briar -
Oh for goodness sake. Between now and the last Ice Age people settled and created a culture. That culture deserves some respect, not to be treated as disposable by these lying charlatans."
_AT_Briar - Thanks for that, now go back to reading wikipedia and leave us 'immigrants' to worry about the things you'd probably charaterise as frivolous, like inflation, jobs, access to health and education.
"_AT_theendisnigh2 -
Like our religion, our music, our art, our architecture, our countryside, our wildlife, our language, our history, our community, our festivals, our traditions, our literature, our ethics, our families, our laws, our quality of life."
_AT_Pavlova101 - So out of respect for Celtic culture all Anglo Saxons, please, on your bikes.
"_AT_Pavlova101 - And our glorious 'Finest Hour' in 1940, when we stood alone, and which your average UKIPer still creams their pants over. Except for the suicidally brave Poles who shot down Germans at twice the rate that British squadrons did [not to mention the other nationalities involved].
And were there on Cassino Ridge, D-Day, Normandy and Arnhem. Fat lot of good it did them when we handed them over to Stalin.
If we need to receive one million of any nationality, I'd take the Poles any time. And yes, I have friends who are Poles."
_AT_SOUTHERNBIAS - Yep, I'll second that!
Real culture evolves and draws influence from other cultures. When that outside influence is cut off, you get stagnation. Indigenous British culture as the right-wing would have it preserved is fucking awful. If people don't want to eat pig's trotters and dance around maypoles anymore, then so be it. People who actually engage with culture, rather than just whining about it, aren't going to pay any attention to the handful of enraged Tory irrelevances who insist that Britishness is being undermined by... basically everything good, tbh!
This is just a load of rubbish and nobody should believe a word of it. Labour have to keep immigration high, as the immigrants all vote for them. That's politics in the raw.
Now that's just cynical! If that were the case they'd also have other underhand policies like introducing some sort of working benefits so they can lock in workers as well as the unemployed, never mind the impact on the dynamics of pay.... oh... hang on!
_AT_Billlogan - of course EU citizens cannot vote in the general election....good point though.
"""sustained the NHS, kept public transport moving""
Has Yvette Cooper been to a hospital or on a train recently?
Does she realise how ironic her statement is?"
"_AT_Pavlova101 07 March 2013 9:19am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
She has Bupa and travels first class out of rush hour....Oh and the hospital in her constituency is all but closed down, cant get enough doctors to open on an evening/weekend so is now basically a clinic."
_AT_Pavlova101 - Well I have experience of both, now and in the nineties, and they are both better now.
"_AT_SOUTHERNBIAS -
Better in what way?
Better in that they are hugely expensive, people don't queue at the doors but instead rugby scrum for seats and the. Stand crammed in the aisle while the train stands stationery on the platform because some poor sod has had enough and chucked herself under it?"
_AT_Pavlova101 - How can you lay the blame of train overcrowding at the door of immigrants?
_AT_SOUTHERNBIAS - Partially, of course. I regularly travel on trains that are 80% full of people speaking other languages.
_AT_Pavlova101 - But clearly they are commuting to work, so in your world those jobs would be filled with Brits. and the train would still be full!
_AT_Pavlova101 - unless of course your confusing tourism with immigration where do you stand on that ?
"So Labour see their future as some kind of UKIP lite. I guess the new in New Labour refers to Mosley's old party. In the thirties the people came out on the streets and stopped The Black Shirts and their police protectors, in 2013 are we to cheer and encourage their modern counterparts? When Farage ( why do he and zippy never appear together ?) arrived in Eastleigh his first utterances where designed to fuel peoples fear of immigration, this set the tone for a decidedly uninspired campaign, thankfully enough rational people turned out, just, to stop a UKIP win, (other than appealing to , racists, paranoids and Europhobes what are their policies?).
What do people mean when they say stop immigration? Are we talking about net migration? do we mean one in one out? or are we going to stop people leaving as well as arriving. A successful economy needs cheap, available labour this drives the economy and creates wealth from top to bottom. I live near Eastleigh and I'm not aware of an increased pressure on services, housing yes but thats because we're not building. In terms of the NHS my experience is one of improvement over the last 15 years thanks to East European staff. If there are problems with benefits change the rules."
"She knows that if UK remains in the EU, the government can do nothing about the Poles, the Romanians and the Bulgars. So she picks on the Chinese instead. The Chinese lap up every remaining university course going, no matter what the subject; so that they can come over here and learn English. Then they go back home to work in their own industries, and use their English to help their industries export.
The Chinese...more bogeymen for the redtops."
Incredibly relaxed about people getting filthy rich. Incredibly relaxed about immigration. Horse. Stable door. Bolt.
_AT_pastis - Surely it's bolt, stable door, no horse?
_AT_SOUTHERNBIAS - Yes the horse has bolted and not the door. To be fair to Labour their mea culpa is shrewd politics. I'm not sure that they were right to allow an unlimited flow of new Europeans in 2004 but that cannot be changed now. I will vote Labour in the next election for their compassion and not for their policies on immigration.
Britain is politically backward and does not have a political party with the gumption to address its problems.
"_AT_Kalandar - every bold idea has to get vetted by the 'What would business leaders and The Daily Mail readership think?' brigade.
Supposed job creation trumps everything."
It seems to me they've now apologised for most of what they did over 13 years, so I don't really know why they should be trusted to get it right, after all, most of Milliband's gang were around when all these things that are now wrong were apparently right. What will the message be at the next election? Trust us, we're useless?
_AT_pedrao1 - They need another 5 years in Government to give themselves more things to apologise for.
"Disappointed in Labour. The way into the UK is increasingly hard for those with foreign passports who also happen to be non-white (which I am sure pleases many people) so I am not surprised those coming in through student visas has shot up. However most of these people then work and do contribute to the UK's economy whether people want to admit it or not.
And does she really have to use the word bogus? And what does low-skilled immigration mean? Who decides which skill is low?"
"_AT_MissIndia - We should admit only two types of immigrants:
1. Asylum seekers fleeing persecution
2. Foreign nationals who can benefit this country through their skills, investments or sheer hard work.
For anyone else, the door should remain firmly shut."
"_AT_MissIndia -
There is more to this than money.
Immigrants are just people, some are nice and hard-working and some aren't. But all of them have a small cultural impact which when multiplied by millions becomes a huge cultural impact."
_AT_MissIndia - please don't try to label us all racists. Such efforts can only be described as basic attempts at moral blackmail which you no doubt picked up at primary school. I don't care about skin colour, and in case you've been paying attention to the news lately, the government and british society are deeply worried about Romanian and Bulgarian immigration - nothing to do with skin colour.
"_AT_theendisnigh2 -
But a lot to do with culture. Some cultures meld into our society much more easily than others. If British people wanted to live in an Asian culture they would have done so. But they want to live in a Northern European culture. Preferably their own. In that respect we are no different to everyone else in the world. Where we are different is being expected not to care about the things that matter to us."
"_AT_MissIndia - Low skilled immigration means immigration of people without specific skills. It does not mean non-white. There are highly skilled non white people and there are lowly skilled white people.
However in Britain, Europe, North America, South East Asia, Australia and, increasinly, in India and South America most of the employment requirements are for the skilled. The number of jobs available for the low skilled becomes smaller and smaller as countries become more technologally mature
Who decides which skill is low? It is decided by asking potential employers what their skill requirements are. It is demonstrated by the difficulties some people have in finding employment."
_AT_theendisnigh2 - But why are you deeply worried about Romanian and Bulgarian immigration? is it because Nigel told you to ?
_AT_Pavlova101 - If such a small percentage of the population could have such a huge cultural impact, then it stands to reason that the majority culture couldn't have been very strong at all.
This woman wins an Oscar for brass-necked nerve! We got it wrong...ooops. But it's ok we have apologised. Easy. Except that the apology takes a five-minute speech but the consequences of an open doors policy that no-one was allowed to challenge for fear of being pilloried as racist is, and will continue to have, profound effects on every aspect of our society. The only good thing is that we are actually allowed to acknowledge this now. The problem is we have not the slightest idea how to cope with those effects. Very few parts of this country are multicultural, instead we have been left with a string of disparate, culturally non-compatible communities that have no interest in integrating. I am not even saying that is wrong. I am saying that is what we have now and what we will continue to have. Yvette Cooper's metropolitan hogwash is risible.
"Immigrants can be brilliant doctors and surgeons, business people, scientists, musicians, engineers, academics and more.
They can also be poor, have little or no job skills and unable to communicate adequately in english. Most of this category are from outside the EU, but as any trip around some parts of our inner cities will show they have recently arrived in large numbers. Their inability to get a job paying at least the average wage will necessarily mean they will need to receive welfare and housing benefits for a considerable time.
Any article which concludes that Britain has major problems in absorbing large numbers from this second category, immediately raises forceful comments that any restrictions on immigration will not only reduce immigration from the first and more desirable category, but is inherently racist."
"_AT_bramhall -
Most of the NHS medical enquiries into malpractice and negligence have been into foreign doctors. That is a fact."
_AT_bramhall - and the thing that brings them all is a very generous welfare state that just keeps on paying no matter how many children you've spawned. I know this, from working with such people. It's sickening and challenges anyone's left wing values.
"_AT_Pavlova101 -

Aren't most NHS doctors foreign? I mean, just saying, your fact doesn't necessarily prove anything other than itself."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams -
I don't know. Possibly.
But the issue is that the foreign doctors and nurses shoring up our NHS are frequently not the boon they are presented as, and complaints are rising. This can be due to training and language deficiencies.
Why aren't we investing in training our own doctors and nurses? And if anyone says English people aren't prepared to do the job, I want to see some evidence because I don't buy it. I think it's more likely to be systemic failures to recruit, train or retain them.
And another thing, the developing world needs its doctors and nurses, it's totally immoral for us to take them."
"_AT_bramhall - in Germany it's well known that young doctors apply to work in the NHS to get experience. They have to work very hard, then go back to Germany where life is easier, and they have made all of their rookie mistakes on british patients.
Lucky us!"
"_AT_bramhall -
Seems to me that England invests in training English doctors and nurses who then move abroad to Australia and the US for better working conditions and prospects while we backfill from the developing world.
Then our doctors and nurses go to the developing world on sabbaticals, no doubt partially because of gaps left."
_AT_Pavlova101 - Have you stopped taking the pills? You know the doctor warned you about that. Now sit on your Chinese made armchair and take a sip of Kenyan Tea from your Indian made cup.
"_AT_SOUTHERNBIAS -
Patronising twerp. I'd bet I'm better traveled, have a more cosmopolitan family and group of friends than you'll ever hope to have."
_AT_Pavlova101 - Still talk balls though!
_AT_Pavlova101 - You have the statistics to hand?
"_AT_SOUTHERNBIAS -
You're just a sniper. You contribute nothing."
_AT_Pavlova101 - Ah but that wouldn't worry someone as cosmopolitan as you.
"_AT_Pavlova101 -

If complaints are rising now, it's not because of foreign doctors. There have been lots of foreign doctors for as long as I've been alive, and satisfaction with the NHS was generally very high until recently."
_AT_bramhall - Immigrants from outside the EU can't access benefits.
Yvette Balls finally admits that labour made a "balls-up". Whatever next? Might we one day hear Ed Balls admit that they also made a "balls-up" of the enconomy?
"_AT_rfyork -
I think they already did admit that. I know it's very pithy to slate Labour for what they did under Blair, but if you want political parties to learn from their mistakes, you should be open to the possibility that they might.
Labour under Milliband does seem to have realised that there is a huge gap in the market for a centre-left party and no one really filling it since the Lib Dems pissed off pretty much everyone who ever voted for them; so there's every incentive for them to avoid pandering to the right wing and remove the ""New"" from Labour."
"The major problem of public sector is that people at the top can easily afford to make decisions that are proven to be wrong further down the line - lethally so in the case of the NHS - because, by the time they have invariably swivelled through a revolving door into another plumb public fat cat sector role, they are unaccountable for their past actions and decisions. This is clearly wrong.
In public life there is a selective filtering of a certain personality type into such roles - which in itself makes a nonsense of democracy - which lacks contriteness or the ability to admit to past mistakes and say sorry. These people are making decisions and passing policies every day that impact on all our lives while invariably further self-interests, and they have complete and utter impunity to do so.
This is the major scandal and rot at the core of public life today."
"_AT_dreamwatcher -
To be fair, it's not particularly different from the process by which people are promoted in any other sector. It still stinks and it's important not to punish the public sector as a whole for those at the top, because they are generally just as unpopular with the people who work under them as they are with everyone else."
"You can't properly control immigration Yvette - the EU won't let you.
We can't even deport people who plot to blow up shopping centres. What chance do you have of denying rights to an innocent bloke arriving next year in Dover looking for work but then can't find any?"
"_AT_fasttak -
Why would you want to deny an innocent person their rights?"
Or a guilty person, for that matter?
_AT_getoutofmydreams - Or a guilty person?????
"_AT_expatandhappy -
Yes. The whole point of human rights is that it's supposed to represent the base level of treatment, to which we believe all humans are entitled, even if they've just murdered a bajillion people for fun. They're the reason we're not supposed to torture people. And I know that a lot of people think that people should forfeit the right to humane treatment if they break the law. Those people are the whole reason we have to enshrine those rights in law."
", but I guess addressing it in passing is fine. As long as they don't start ""engaging"" with the right-wing on the subject they should be okay.
The left will never be able to frame the debate on immigration because the right just give so much more of a shit about it; all they can really hope to do is not be drawn into answering nonsensical questions based on made-up statistics, and try not to provide them with too many soundbites."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams -


In other words, continue in denial - that should sort things out !"
"_AT_getoutofmydreams -
The traditional labour voters give very much of a shit about immigration, seeing as they are the ones who primarily have to live with its social and economic consequences.
I don't think there is any particular logical disconnect between immigration control and left wing politics."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams -
Many people are only right-wing in the sense that they oppose the kind of immigration we've seen since 1997. Other than that their votes are up for grabs."
"_AT_Pavlova101 -

OK, maybe I should clarify: I mean that it's not the primary concern and/or the thing we're going to blame absolutely every problem on now matter how tenuous the relationship.

There isn't. However, that does not mean that you can spew ludicrous reactionary toss on the subject and still demand to be considered something other than right-wing. There is a tenable left-wing position that does not allow unchecked and unfettered immigration, but the majority of those arguing against it are arguing for draconian measures that no government on either end of the spectrum is ever going to employ. The left actually has a lot less to gain from unregulated immigration than the right."
"_AT_davidiain -

No, just not try to use it as a cheap vote winner, like every other party. Living in a Labour constituency that actually has immigrants in it, immigration doesn't frighten me the way it seems to frighten people who are never going to be affected by it in any way."
Deeply depressing.
"As has been said many times, the wealthy and well educated have nothing to fear from immigration. They are protected by their money and connections and, if the worst happens, can move abroad to find work and a more comfortable life.
The poor and the working class generally lack the safety net and competitiveness in the job market. As such, they are the ones who suffer most from immigration and, naturally, are, therefore, the most opposed.
These people, you would think, are also natural Labour supporters, who up to now have been taken for granted - Labour thinks they have no one else to vote for. However, UKIP appears to be an increasingly respectable alternative, hence the rise in the level of abuse and the charges of racism and Little Englander behaviour.
Hence, Labour's apparent Damascene conversion, which is smart politics. The only fly in the ointment is that the Labour leadership is as much a part of the upper middle class metropolitan chatterati as the Tory boys and girls.
What Labour has forgotten is that the last Prime Minister to be elected, at least in part, because of a swing in the working class vote was Margaret Thatcher. Ed is no Maggie and nor is the other Ed's wife."
"_AT_xpeters -
Without really understanding what ""working class"" means these days, I think those without that ""safety net"" are growing in numbers (thanks to successive governments).
It's disturbing that UKIP can be used in the same sentence as ""respectable"", when as far as I can tell they are cut from the same cloth as the Tories. Their rise doesn't bother me much. It's likely to split the right-wing vote without getting them more than one or two MPs (because Tories don't protest-vote, generally speaking).
I think, though, that there is a real myth around Milliband, largely created and perpetuated by the press, which doesn't really bear out. They presented him as a joke and a burden to the party early on, and now they're kind of stuck with that image of him, even while he's been competent in keeping the party united at a time when it would be easy for them to fragment and bicker (like the Tories are). This is important for a left-wing party. So no, as much as people want to dislike Ed Milliband, I think a lot of us would be wary of yet another leader who was trying to be charismatic at all costs."
"_AT_xpeters -
And as you have conveniently ignored, neither is there any evidence that immigration has had a negative impact upon British national's employment or wages.
If there is a downwards pressure on living standards at all, which remains doubtful, it is among the immigrant communities themselves.
It is a complete fantasy to imagine that established British companies are shedding skills, knowledge and experience in favour of Silesian pea-pickers. Laughable really, if it wasn't so dangerous."
"_AT_shinotora - rubbish, and what about the shocking increase in rent levels that hit EVERYONE!
The main cause of that is a massive shortage of housing - with immigration the main driver of population growth."
"_AT_theendisnigh2 -

The shortage of housing is not caused by massive population growth. More to the point, has there even been massive population growth? Because if there has it's the first I've heard of it."
_AT_getoutofmydreams - get your head out of the sand, take it you were in a coma the day the latest population figures were released by the ONS.
"_AT_theendisnigh2 - Ur... yus... there is a shortage of affordable housing. Blame it on the homeless. Like unemployment, blame it on the unemployed. Like poverty, blame it on the poor.
You people live in Cuckoo-land. do me a favour."
"_AT_theendisnigh2 - Sure... two sides of the same coin: there is not enough affordable housing in this country. There never has been since council housing stock was sold-off at knock-down discounts to sitting tenants under the Thatcher hegemony.
Like you people say... homelessness is the fault of the homeless; unemployment is the fault of the unemployed; poverty is the fault of the poor. Er, nothing to do with us Guv'. Pull the other one."
"No other large older EU countries allowed immigration of Poles and other people from the newer EU countries post 2004.
Labour thought it knew better and allowed them in.
Sheer incompetence."
"_AT_printerink - It has been acknowledged by independent and government studies that immigration is a nett benefit to the economy, so I'm not quite sure where""incompetence"" comes into the argument.
If immigrants are indeed nett contributors to the economy, one can only conclude that the UK would be in an even worse place than it is without them."
"_AT_shinotora - net is spelt with just one 't.'
And the biased report into benefit of immigration, I spit on that!"
"_AT_printerink - Oh? There are plenty of Poles in Germany, mostly doing seasonal jobs which Germans no longer seem capable of doing, e.g. picking asparagus in spring, or working as cleaners, etc. As far as I know, it's been perfectly legal for Poles to live and work here for years, though at least until recently they had to go into business for themselves and work on a contract basis. In remote parts of eastern Germany, Poles have been settling territory abandoned by Germans who've moved west. In some places they've been pushing the birthrate up in communities that would have otherwise practically died out in the meantime. (Wolves have been crossing into Germany, too.)
Why this antipathy to the Poles? I mean, for Christ's sake, the women are gorgeous."
"_AT_theendisnigh2 - Um... ""nett"" is the British version of the American ""net"".
You stick with your north Atlantic patois if you like. To me, a billion is still a million million. PHARP."
Seems a balanced approach that at least begins to accept that Labour made some mistakes on immigration policy. So far so good. What it does not address is the fundamental part that immigration had in Labour's overall economic strategy. The boom and bust economic cycle in this country was caused by the colonial nature of by British companies. They would rather rely on hiring more labour than investing in plant, machinery, buildings etc. It is no coincidence that foreign companies in the UK have the highest productivity and quality performance as a result. British investment policy meant however that as the GDP grew the labour market tightened, wages went up, inflation increased and the bust cycle began. Labour cut through that by increasing the size of the labour market, thereby organising a steady increase in GDP over time and "an end to boom and bust". The downside was that none of the increased wealth generated found its way to the working population. A party which was therefore founded to increase the wealth of the working population and reduce wealth differentials, devised a policy which achieved exactly the opposite. Any approach to reduce immigration without at the same time addressing capital investment policies will simply push us back to "boom and bust" and it is there (investment policy) that Labour needs to come up with some ideas.
_AT_wayofwyrd - Pseudo-economics, Asian countries with plenty of cheap labour didn't experience the cycle you describe. Yes, labour shortage will choke off a boom cycle but our down turn was caused by a lending bubble, secured against over valued assets and when confidence stalled as it always does, pop went the lenders.
What's most depressing about this debate is the absence of a genuine right-liberal voice that is pro-immigration and anti-welfare-state - one that looks to a future of capitalist competition instead of backwards preservation of such relics as "heritage Routemasters" or the NHS. In fact, there are more classical liberals on the Continent than in the homeland of Smith and adopted homeland of Hayek, Popper et al. Sad.
"_AT_LordArthurCrumpley -
""Routemasters""
Is tht all British/English history and culture is to you?
I'm not sure it's wise to rely on uncultured people to protect it."
_AT_LordArthurCrumpley - i would agree with you, if there was a viable country to which hard working, hard pressed people with young families like me could go. Fact is, very few countries offer a genuine alternative. Almost all EU countries are either as/more poorly, and I don't speak eastern european languages so that rules out the rest. Only specialist skills will get you into the US/Oz/Canada. So what 'pro immigration' effectively means is; let everyone else on the planet come to the UK, where housing/health and education provision are already under extreme pressure.
"_AT_theendisnigh2 -
There are no options for British people except other economically viable, western countries, most of which are outside the EU."
"_AT_Pavlova101 -
If you think that's your only option than, hey, we'll be really sad to see you go."
"_AT_theendisnigh2 -

Are you incapable of learning another language? Almost all immigrants to the UK that I've met seem to find time to learn.
Do you ever think, if there is no country on Earth that represents your values, maybe it's your values that are the problem?"
"_AT_getoutofmydreams - you're a complete fool, a rabid left wing idiot who thinks they are 100% correct. I speak French, what other languages do you speak? Do you have any idea how high tax rates are in France, or how easy it is to actually get a job in Germany when you don't speak the language fluently.
Suggest you haven't a clue about what you're on about."
So they're sorry. That's makes everything alright then. And Labor thinks we'll have forgiven and forgotten by the next election. We won't.
"_AT_adsoofmelk -
So you'll be voting for the Tories with their wonderful track record then?"
Too Little, Too late
It's such a tragedy. I worked for the Labour party for years, loved it but have had to accept that the 1997 - 2010 government was the most damaging and incompetent in British history. I'm genuinely terrified of them ever gaining power again (by the way I think the Tory's are incompetent and wouldn't **** on a LiDem if on fire so gosh....what to do?).
"Nobody is bothered about student visas Labour!!
People just want an end to our ridiculous open door immigration system we have enough immigrants here now!!
The British have been done over by the huge influx of low skilled labour driving down peoples wages and taking British jobs.  We dont have jobs for them, we dont have houses for them
maybe we can look after British people before migrants?"
_AT_GeorgeOsbourneKnows - When your fear of appearing the tiniest bit racist far outweighs your concerns about the effects of immigration, you're not left with a great deal to say!
"_AT_GeorgeOsbourneKnows 07 March 2013 10:17am. Get cifFix for Firefox.

I love to watch tories shedding crocodile tears over low wages when it's an excuse to sneer at immigrants, then arguing for low wages when it's about ""becoming more competitive"".
Then there's condemning the unemployed as lazy shirkers, except when it suits the agenda to commiserate with the unemployed as unable to get work because those awful foreigners have taken them all."
"_AT_GeorgeOsbourneKnows -

Where is this line coming from? Because too many people are saying exactly this, about our towns and cities ""resembling the third world"", for it to be coincidence. Are you all quoting someone or something?
As for ""our history or culture"", who are you even talking about? 90% of everyone who lives in this country has no idea about our history, and as for our culture, I'm not sure what you think it is that people don't know about."
New Labour embraced, Tory Thatcher's financial philisophy for 13 years (fact) and they are just reminding us once again that they can be as nasty as their friends in that other ''nasty party'' The Tory party !!!
"_AT_RoyRoger -
I'm hoping that this is just giving them the opportunity to rebut claims that they haven't apologised for immigration or whatever, and that they won't dwell on it. At the moment there is a real demand for a credible left-wing party, and if Labour goes back to chasing the centre-right vote, then it will be a huge wasted opportunity to do something good and worthwhile with the complicity of the electorate for a change."
"Immigrants = Labour Votes and a chance to water down Tory votes.
Hence whilst Labour will never change , for them its a form of Voter Cleansing."
"_AT_gitski - When you think about it the need for dirt cheap labour (slavery by another name) has been a constant throughout history.
The Romans had no compunction in the brutal use of it. Hitler also employed forced or semi slave labour from across Europe.
Stalin had his Gulags.
Post war US and Europe brought in the masses from the 3rd world for the same reason. All the time spouting bxllxcks about 'human rights'.
Labour got the wheeze of utilising this resentful workforce for electoral support.
The cynicism never ends."
"_AT_outragedofacton -
I notice that you've skipped over the current example - the Tory workfare scheme that supplies an endless stream of forced unpaid labour to their donors - in favour of an imaginary future one."
Whilst I am no fan of Yvette Cooper I think people should remember that they do actually want politicians who listen and act accordingly. This does not mean endless u-turns but that after consistent pressure they have seen sense in the argument and have decided to accept the basic premise. Why is this wrong? Why is this not accepted as something in good faith rather than alwasy looking for a way to let everyone know that you are better than whomever is the subject of today's bile?
"_AT_PeeteeSF -
It is frustrating that people demand a change from a political party, but then when they get one, they accuse them of lying or just refuse to acknowledge it. There are people in this very comments section demanding that Labour ""apologise for immigration"", which I'm pretty sure they just did!
Whereas I think the party is being sensible in recognising who its voters are. There are some legitimate concerns over immigration, and there are some concerns that are simply dyed-in-the-wool Tories who will accuse Labour of lies and hypocrisy just for not being the Tory party (anymore). Milliband and co will do well to recognise this, and to only respond to legitimate concerns. Leave populism to the right-wing, it's what they're good at."
"European immigration is easy to launch mealy mouthed, stumbling, mumbling attacks on.
They are white, Christian and 'taking our jobs' (morons love this one) and are therefore fair game and easy targets.
The real elephant in the room is immigration from the subcontinent and Africa. A touchy subject that can skirt close to percived racism if broached."
"_AT_onplanetdope -
Oh, no, people are more than capable of being overtly and genuinely racist about the white Christian East Europeans."
Remember the advantages. Remember the unreliability and incompetence of British mechanics, builders, plumbers and electricians. Remember the joys of finding an intelligent Polish workman who could be relied on to finish a job at a reasonable price. Remember the money you saved. Remember also the fact that every successive government has encouraged immigration to reduce the wages of indigenous working people. Remember that the NHS could not operate without overseas nurses and doctors. Remember the cleaners who clean your office. [For the Tories...] remember the nannies that look after your kids and cook your meals. In fact, one would expect the Tories to be rejoicing that by encouraging guest workers, wage bills have been depressed and British workers deprived of employment. Remember the hypocrisy of the Conservative Party who are exploiting the immigration issue but will do nothing effective about it.
"_AT_Palustrian -
Of course there are some advantages. But do they outweigh the disadvantages? Remember when it was your home, not an airport terminal."
_AT_Pavlova101 - What socio-economic model do you advocate? taking all your blogs together it sounds something like nationalist China.
"_AT_Pavlova101 -
Who are you even trying to pander to anymore? People whose homes are now airport terminals = a pretty small niche vote."
"""Labour believes action on short-term student visas would allow the fostering of more legitimate graduate students, especially from China and Brazil..""
Labour is in danger of the same sort of short-termism as the Tories. A student is a student - stop trying to pick winners."
"_AT_zavaell -
I'm confused by the issue of student visas. It seems like a problem that involves policing, not policy (ooooh, snap), but both parties seem to think that policy is the answer. Unfortunately, policy seems to be to screw over large numbers of innocent people in the name of catching the few who work (and who will invariably continue to work) the system."
"_AT_getoutofmydreams - All the more reason to kick the lot out and as you are obviously plugging for LIEbour, what dumb-ass thought up the idea of educating the opposition?
Now that LIEbour are a right-wing free market/economy party, what part of ""competition"" are they too stupid to understand?"
Much of the information Cooper is giving here is just plain incorrect. Student visitor visas are not easy to obtain and checks applicants have to go through can be very strict. I work for a scholarship organisation and last year supported a number of students (from the Middle East) through applications for student visitor visas. All had to submit detailed information about their plans in the UK including proof of finances. None of the students were granted visas - all were rejected on the grounds that a) they weren't deemed to have provided adequate proof of funds, and b) the UKBA was not convinced they would return after completing their studies.
"_AT_sarah12345 -
Absolutely. But the average Tory voters isn't a student, doesn't know any students, and generally has no firsthand experience to fall back on on this subject, so you can just tell them whatever lie you like about it."
"_AT_sarah12345 - Er. no. There are student visas and student temporary visas. Got it? Read the article again dear.
Obviously, you don't know your job."
Interesting to see from this comments section how much noise a few right-wing saddoes can make. It's the same few names, over and over, saying the same few things, over and over. Reassuring in some ways.
_AT_getoutofmydreams - sorry, had to laugh - yours is about the most frequently occurring name in the whole thread!
_AT_pedrao1 - And still he doesn't get it.
"From this report, it appears the Labour party have no wish to win the 2015 general election any more than Cameron or Clegg.
Well, they wouldn't listen, UKIP it is then."
"EMPLOYMENT minister Chris Grayling is going in to bat against Brussels over the eu proposal to sign a deal with Turkey – without Britain’s consent
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/318534/Ministers-must-halt-new-EU-raid-on-British-welfare
Fears move could lead to pave the way for welfare deals with countries outside the EU
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2140680/Government-launches-battle-EU-plan-open-welfare-non-member-migrants.html
What is the EU trying to do to the UK? Deliberately trying to over-ride elected UK govt and extend UK welfare to the WORLD.
You call these the actions of responsible and well meaning people? What have the Con Artists done about this??? Not even a word said by PM or Opposition. Does that not pose questions???
EU demands that Britain admit immigrants intending to go straight on to benefits
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100089292/eu-demands-that-britain-admit-immigrants-intending-to-go-straight-on-to-benefits/
The UKs welfare system is and has been out of control for decades. It needs reform. The best opportunity we had was during 2000-2007. However the odious labour party chose NOT to act in the nation interest, instead:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2104550/Mass-immigration-Labour-tried-destroy-Britishness.html
Acted in the parties interests. The party failed to fix the roof when the sun was shining, choosing to recruit voters to ""rub the rights nose in it""..... To those who vote for labour i have a simple question; Are you SANE???
The fact is
You cannot be pro eu and pro controlled and managed migration. The EU is about freedom of movement for an obvious reason! The liblabcons are pro EU - need i say more?"
"getoutofmydreams:
what in God's name do you do?! It's a working day and yet....
I have read some constructive points on here, I can't say you are really (despite chipping in every other comment with tediously ""Right On"" response) adding much to the discussion.
Any thoughts on how we could solve the problems we face?!!
Q: Our people cannot find work that pays enough to live off..?
A: ???
Q: How do we equitably work towards a happier and more homogenous society..?
A: ???
Look forward to your comments!"
Compare and contrast the Romanian gypsies and the white British underclass.
"""Poland has much better vocational education than the UK and many of the Poles had served the sort of apprenticeships at home that are now rare in the UK""
Educatio, education, education?
t"
Few people said EU migration never worked. It's been fantastic and by and large the people who migrate tend to do so for work which is good. It's the unending waves of non-EU migration that people rightly have a problem with.
"""Crucially, they were able to fill skills gaps and willing to do jobs we Brits didn't want to do.""
Just a question. Who did the jobs we don't want to do before they came here to do the jobs we don't want to do?"
Immigration has hit the greedy "us" who want cheap servants and forelock tuggers.
"This is the usual bullshit again. Different name, same article.
In the end all the statistics won`t cover up two very different world views of what a country is -
a) A country and its citizens have some bond between them that is not just based on money, temporary residence, working or using welfare services etc.
OR
b) A country is just a glorified local council. If you live in their area (whether or not you contribute anything at all - even if you are just a sponger) the council and their officers are interested in you. Otherwise, not.
Britain has gone very, very far down the b) route. In fact - an open question to the readers - has ANY developed country gone further?"
"EU immigration works if you're an employer because you can get extra cheap labour with a 'disposable' workforce who will largely do what they're told.
If you are an employee looking for a job, immigration is a disaster that has resulted in many people being sidelined.
If the issue is vocational training then that is what we should be focusing on, not mass immigration."
You think???
I wanted an apprenticeship for years. So I should learn "polish", move to Poland, learn a trade and then move back here and earn some money?
"The only skills, or rather morality gap, was that of rulers who do not devise policy to suit the resouces available, but try to force people to be what they want them to be.
It is called eugenics or Nazism."
Unending waves? From where? Are we talking about refugees? Or international students? Or "highly-skilled migrants" as the Home Office used to refer to certain classes?
"Yes couldn't agree more.....
The Eu has helped us see people trafficking as a major human rights crime when prior to the EU it was virtually unknown
The EU has helped many migrants from the Indian and African continents get to the UK on Romanian passports
The EU has managed to suppress average wage rates by sucking in people who are prepared to work for the minimum wage and some who are prepared to work for less
The EU has helped us create a nightmare housing shortage which without inward migration we would not have
The EU has helped to exhaust public services, financially and servicewise, by overloading demand from people who have never contributed to the system in the first place
The EU has helped to extinguish our English national identity and replace it with an uncomfortable mix of cultures many of whom hate the sight of eachother but pretend to be one happy clappy rainbow nation when in fact nothing could be further from the truth (fire bombin the mosque in Luton last week being a case in point)
The EU has helped to eradicate democracy by forcing all countries linked to it with a ""one size fits all"" whether or not it is affordable, practical or desirable
The EU has helped us suppress our national identity in an open attempt to force Europe to become a pretend nation, with no shared language and few shared values
Sorry, you can look at the EU project through rose tinted glasses if oyu like, but to be honest apart from freedom of travel I can't really see what other advantages there have been. It costs £40 million a day to belong to this club and as far as I can see the UK gets no net benefit ....unless stealing our UK jobs is seen as a charitable act?"
I am sure the Government will use the opportunity of 'swine flu' hysteria and the recession, to try and win cheap votes by claiming they will be 'protecting British jobs', i.e preventing anyone coming here to work, (well trying to prevent in anyway). Recession and increased levels of racism and discrimination go hand-in-hand, instead of looking closer to home for the cause of economic woes(like the banks) we will some be blaming migrants. But how can the public money used to fund the banking crisis be justifed, what do banks really ever do to help us, i would rather have given it to a group of Poles as least they would do something constructive
"What, all of them?
Certainly there are plenty of immigrants who have contibuted to the welfare of the UK economy but in no way does that justify the open door policy that has been practiced by this labour government.
This is still a very small and increasingly overcrowded island that can only sustain limited population growth and allowing further unlimited immigration is just going to create further social and economic problems as everyone start competing more violently for scarce space and resources.
At the end of the day it comes down to simple maths: 100 goes into 1000 no problem but 1000 doesn't go into 100!"
"The article seems to point out that the protectionist calls from the British workers are due to misconception of the actual cause of crisis.
The data about Poles does indicate that the immigrant workers are not depriving the natives of their jobs.
Though the Poles might be the single largest migrant community in the UK, data about migrant workers from Asian countries should also be taken into account before concluding that there is absolutely no correlation between the number of migrant workers and the loss of jobs for native workers.
However, it does appear that the current job crisis is more due to the absence of jobs (with most companies being badly hit) than due to an oversupply of migrant workers."
"When you next need a builder, get a Russian: he will previously probably at some time have been a miner, train-driver, electrician, plumber and have also fought in several wars, and be reasonably priced.
Don´t, however, try banter."
"_AT_leftleast
Are you having a Daily Mail moment? I agree the EU is crap in that the Beauracracy makes every little decision super unbearably S.L.O.W, especially it seems if the question is if a conflict should be labelled 'Genoside' or urgent aid is needed. But returning to migration it has boosted the economy for many years, also our population is ageing, in 20 years i bet will be accepting anyone into the UK that is young and can work, which will be a good thing for everyone
coming here stealing our jobs, marrying our women, bringing their good work ethic, bloody foreigners"
"Homecoming;
Africa and Asia obviously. One only need look at places like Bradfordistan to see the harm this non-EU migration has done."
"or even suppressed wages to any significant degree.
Well, clearly not significant to Tom Finch. People in middle class professional jobs like him don't have to worry about turning up at job interviews to find candidates from Eastern Europe willing to do the job for 40% ( or more ) less than the going rate, as was happening in the building trade before the crash. People like Mr Finch experience only the benefits of immigration, others pay the price.
In fact, a lot of Guardian readers are in jobs insulated from competition from immigration, particularly in the public sector. If such people had to personally compete against immigrants, perhaps they would be less enthusiastic for open borders."
Repeat after me: Turkey is not a European country.
"""contrary to popular opinion, IPPR research has shown that the arrival of all these workers has not displaced UK workers from jobs, or even suppressed wages to any significant degree.""
I haven't been living in the UK since before this migration, but does that now mean that you don't have to pay a callout fee for a plumber or electrician who then arrives 5 days later? That can only be a good thing."
"_AT_leftleast

Are you saying people trafficking isn't a major human rights crime?"
"I'm an EU migrant. I live in Northern Spain, have done for 11 years. I work and pay taxes. However, the hundreds of thousands of British old-dears who live in the south and make constant use of the health service and other municipal services do not. Well, they're just scrounging bastards aren't they, bleeding whiteys, I'd have 'em all sent back where they came from. Scum.
I can just see the looks of incensed outrage bubbling up on some posters faces right now. Look, I've lived here for over a decade now and I've seen the waves (yes waves) of South American and North African immigrants coming here to do the construction, farming, care and service industry jobs that no one else wants to do. Spain has become rich over the last 15 to 20 years on the backs of their cheap labour. Spain is now the 4th largest economy in Europe, the taxes and N.I. contributions that those young immigrants pay has filled the coffers, in a country that until recently was becoming alarmingly old.
_AT_Auric - You have no idea what you're talking about mate. You're merely blinded by prejudice against those different to what you consider to be the ""English native"".
""In the end all the statistics won`t cover up.....""
Yeah, it's funny how people like you never want to be confronted by the actual, real statistics. Normally because they take the wind out of your sails I find.
""a) A country and its citizens have some bond between them that is not just based on money, temporary residence, working or using welfare services etc.
OR
b) A country is just a glorified local council. If you live in their area (whether or not you contribute anything at all - even if you are just a sponger) the council and their officers are interested in you. Otherwise, not.""
How about the bond you speak of in your option ""a"" being the citizens of a country working towards a common goal or future regardless of their ethnicity or origins? Do you reckon that could work? Or do you purely wish to see some kind of Saxon theme park established in Britain? And as for option ""b"", well, is that really your view of the world.
Pathetic.
Petty.
Small-minded.
Blinkered."
"""Generally, what is most striking about this unprecedented migration to the UK is how easily this large group of newcomers has been absorbed into our society""
It's not striking in the least. The vast majority of Eastern European migrants are white, work hard, dress like us, speak English and don't rock the boat."
"What economic growth? According to Robert Chote at the Institute for fiscal studies - see full article - ""we are currently suffering a bust without having enjoyed a boom"". So the immigrant's contribution to our economy was nowhere near spectacular enough to even think about advocating yet more immigration.
And why is increasing the size of the EU a good thing? Explain how by admitting yet more poor countries (which ultimately the UK and Germany have to pay for) will help us?
Can anybody please explain why it is that British nationals who have lost their jobs whilst working elsewhere in the EU are not eligible for state benefits or housing on their return to the UK yet immigrants from other EU countries are?"
"What exactly are these jobs that Brits don't want to do then? Perhaps they were jobs that paid so little that few people already living here could afford to take them due to high living costs. I suspect that the large numbers of people that came to Britain when the new countries joined the EU were not unexpected at all. In fact I would suggest that many employers welcomed the chance to make exceedingly good profits on the back of cheap workers.
Now I have no problems with people coming to this country, after all many from here go elsewhere, but let's be honest about it. The writer of the article at least is honest enough to say that it helps to reduce costs but then goes on to suggest that British people have not been affected. Well effing cobblers! That is simply not true so why tell porkies?
One question though. How many people can this country sustain? I often wonder about that and don't really know. Surely there must be an upper limit somewhere but where is it?"
"There are benefits and costs. The question is how they balance.
Instead of this facile and dogmatic article, try the House of Lords report on immigration.
The first line of this report?

The report also notes:"
"_AT_ibrows don't be daft, I wouldn't buy the DM rag if it was the last one on the shelf.
As for your analysis how about mine...?????
Q: Why do we need migrant workers?
A: Because our demographics are changing and we are ageing and not replacing ourselves. Surely it would be better to analyse the cause of this rather than simply the effect?
Q Why are we not replacing ourselves?
a) Kids can't afford to buy their first home because what used to cost twice annual income is now over 4 times annual income. Why is that? Because 3 million people (that we know about) have been admitted to our country in ten years and with so many people looking for a home the cost of housing has increased and so youngsters are having children later and later (if at all.)
Also, if there are so many jobs here, how come 3 million people are claiming dole and have been for over a decade? Isn't there a flaw here, why should we be paying for 3 million people to sit on their backside, when 3 million immigrants can walk through the door and get a job???? Perhaps the government have been rubbish at dealing with the problem, OR (more likely) Labour want to have 3 million on the payroll vote just in case they get booted out from everywhere in the UK????
If I thought for a single moment Labour had planned the implication of mass migration, had properly funded it, had even asked the indigenous population ""Is this what you want?"" I might have a more positive view. But frankly, when you look at the goddam awful mess we have with the Stazi arresting people at the workplace, scanning juggernauts for stowaways, people being stopped at train stations and being asked for ID and the nonesense of the whole ID system, needed because LABOUR slept at the immigration wheel when they should have been awake to stop the chaos.
I remember well asking Blunkett why there were hate preachers in Finsbury Park and thousands of pseudo students appearing everywhere, only to be told ""they had it under control"", clearly they hadn't and as Phil Woolas has admitted in the Sun (another great paper) ""Labour didn't know what they were doing"". Given that fact I am just making some observations about how immigration has been brought into disrepute and how Labour is responsible for that.
No, I don't happen to like seeing the boom in eastern Europe prostitution, the mushrooming of drug running, the gun culture from violent eastern european states, and the fraud which seems indemic in some parts of Europe. Can't I say these things without being accused of being a DM reader????
That's another thing I lament, freedom of speech, apparently since we became europeans you are now not allowed to say anything about anyone in case they take offence.....where will it end???? WIll democracy be the next victim or will we subjected to serial referenda until we submit to being a citizen in a communist nightmare? I think we are just about there........"
"Helped" it blow up more like
"Its great we have immigrant lovers on this board. Good news for them is that we will have approx 350.000 come this year. They will have no home or job so will be housed on benefits. I watched this on parliament on TV, and the goverment admit they have no idea how many millions have come to UK.
The Poles sent 1.3 million, but they were a minor intake compared with other nationalities. We will not mention the hundreds of thousands of illegals aand those who get entry on student visas then disappear.
So OK, after mass immigration we are faced with mass housing needs, and whole areas are now having huge estates built.
A recent report said we will have the largest population of any EU country which is difficult to argue with."
"As I understand it (someone can prove me wrong), the one stat that is not adequately reported on immigration is the proportion involving dependents.
I'd say by and large, a single Pole (or any other nationality) who possesses a skilled trade is almost certainly going to be a net tax contributor.
Families, however, are a different matter, hugely expensive, not just for education but also significantly higher healthcare costs, among others. I very much doubt that immigrant families, except in extreme cases, are going to be anything other than net tax recipients."
"We did want to do them...
.... and then didn't when the employers had an opportunity to employ someone else at rates which made it uneconomic to work. If you receive benefits and then start working, in theory you should always be better off. In practice if you have a family, by the time you pay for transport, childcare, food, clothing etc. it's quite possible to be working for what is effectively nothing or at a small loss. Of course there is the morality side of working but surely it's soul destroying.
Effectively migrantion is subsidised by the benefits system indirectly. But you won't see this on any cost/benefit analysi bcause how do you quantify it?
Secondly, much seasonal and part-time work was traditionally done by students to finance their studies. This type of work is extremely difficult to find these days but again they don't appear on the unemployment stats, so who cares?"
"Tim's profile:-

Tim is part of the problem. He is that face of the governing left that bought the memes of the culture war, that turned its back on social democracy and the working class, and transferred its affections to economism, money-making and cheap imported labour. And this, we are told, is in our people's interests.
The Tims of this world are giving our working class kids education of a quality designed not to show up populations from parts of the world with much lower average IQs. They deny their peoplehood, teach them Hitler and black history month. They flood their streets with people who the government machine praises to the skies (see this article). They encourage them to binge drink and produce bastard children. They have waged a war on their very being. And now they tell us that our kids ""don't want"" certain jobs, don't have the training and application of Poles, etc, etc.
Well, excuse me pal, but a little history. These lazy, good-for-nothing binge drinkers who don't want work were the same people who bore the industrial revolution on their broad backs, and fought their way through two world wars. They have a proud tradition of labour. They, and not Nick and his bloodless cosmopolitan cultre warriors, are us, damn it, and we owe them something better than this, better than booze and debt and watching foreigners kick a ball on Saturdays down the pub.
Economism is another word for treachery. The class that speaks it does not speak for the people."
"They have certainly helped to maintain a large group of work-shy people on the dole instead of having to get up and do a days work. And of course bolster the Govt. ""client base"" for elections.
Is that good or bad? Elections are on the way. You, the voter can decide."
"I don't think anyone who takes migration and its effects seriously ever objected to Polish workers. The Poles are keen, capable, and skilled.
However, only 40% of the 3 million migrants that have arrived since 1997 have been from Europe. The other 60% came from India and Sub-Saharan Africa, including hundreds of thousands of Somalis. It would be difficult to describe Somalis as 'skilled' or even 'English-speaking' and yet they came flooding in with everyone else.
The lack of control of our borders is bad for the UK. At the beginning of the year, the president of Romania granted a million Romania passports to Moldovans. Moldova is a third-world country on the eastern borders of Romania. Those Moldovans now have the right to come to the UK and work, and we cannot stop them.
Obviously, the IPPR thinks immigration is awesome. That's fine for them. But perhaps Tim Finch can tell us when he stops thinking immigration is awesome? 60 million people? 70 million? 80 million? Where does it stop?"
"Really? I think you dont really know what you are talking about.
Free of movement of PEOPLE in the EU (usually confused in Britain with freedom to live or work in another EU country, but it is not the same thing) doesn't exist as far as the UK and the UK government is concerned, because freedom of movement in the EU (as it is applied in virtually the whole of the EU except the UK and ROI) has two crucial elements:
a) Is NON-POLICED
b) Applies to PERSONS, i.e. ALL legal EU residents, whatever the flag on their passports
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_area
[Art. 3.2, Consolidated version of the Treaty on European Union]
""The internal market shall comprise an area without internal frontiers in which the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital is ensured ""
[Art. 26.2, Consolidated version of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union]
"" The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured ""
Apart from being the only EU country that stubbornly refuses to bring down its picket fences with border police between itself and the rest of the EU, the UK unilaterally denies freedom of movement to (predominantly non-white) non-EU nationals who are legal residents in the EU, and therefore pay EU taxes (as well as UK taxes in the case of the ca. 1m of UK residents affected), but to whom the British government unilaterally denies freedom of movement inside the EU, see here, 'Third Country Nationals':
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldselect/ldeucom/34/3402.htm#a9
I have launched my own petition to fight for the end to this indirect racial discrimination.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/EU-FoM/"
"BrigadierBarking:

As you've been living in Spain for 11 years, you might not be aware of the changes in the UK in the last decade. Just ""being citizens"" of a country isn't enough. There is often no common goal or future in that. You can be a citizen of the UK and have no loyalty to it, nothing in common with the majority culture or people."
"Your article is not true.
I know Poles who are settled here and will not go home. Why? Because we have a generous social welfare system, free schools and hospitals and a higher standard of living than in Poland.
This is a fact.
Stop pretending otherwise Mr Finch."
"As with anything produced not by an independent person but by a think tanker, Tim Finch's view of the benefits of open EU migration from A8 nations to Britain must be treated as pure propaganda.
The Institute for Public Policy Research is essentially a research body that reflects the worldview of patrician liberal left grandees like its trustees Lord Kinnock and Baroness Williams.
Therefore, it is bound to find only those facts that fit the prescriptions of the liberal left creed of melding vaguely leftist politics or ""progressive"" with corporate led globalisation.
Even if half the Polish migrants have left, why use that as evidence to ameliorate anxiety over mass migration if mass migration is always to be seen as a necessary good.
In fact, the hypocrisy of the liberal left in reality reflects Voltaire's quip that the comfort of the rich depends on an abundant supply of the poor.
It's always been New Labour's idea that importing migrants who are ""motivated"" ensures a ""flexible"" labour market.
That means using mass migration to drive down wages, scrimp on actually having to retrain or invest in the skills of British citizens and patch up the deficencies of Britain debt ridden and debt driven rentier economy.
The crude utilitarian pseudo-philosophy behind Finch's Panglossian worldview is little more than a rationalisation for an economy driven wholly by the values of quick buck capitalism and money power.
Migrants are seen in terms of their transactional ""use value"" for ""us"" by which he means the comfotably off liberal left middle class who laud the freedom of movement in the EU as it means holiday homes in France.

Naturally, there is no mention of the fact that Britain was instrumental in advocating shock therapy for Poland, demanding precisely those neoliberal Thatcherite reforms that decimated Polish industry.
The 'reforms' that caused mass unemployment, up to 25% in some areas in 2003 and whole swathes of young Poles to look to Britain as an escape. 3.3% of the population voted with their feet against New Labour style economics.
So much for the 'positive' spin being put on European wide 'solidarity'. Not least when Polish mayors have to come to Britain to remind precisely those young Poles Finch lauds for their 'dynamism to return.
Perhaps, now that Britain's economy is in freefall collapse, the USA should open its labour market to Britain's young. Then watch Finch applaud the ensuing brain drain as evidence of ""success"".

Exactly. The fact is that it was just so much cheaper not to invest in the skills base of British citizens, that is those who in theory vote in a government to serve its interests.
Clearly, if Polish tradesmen have brought benefits to ""consumers"" , it hasn't brought benefits to Poland's construction industry as key infrastructure projects are delayed.
Again, importing skilled workers en masse to do the jobs Britons haven't been trained to do is to sell them out as well as rely wholly on the artificially overvalued value of the pound.
As the exchange rate between Polish zlotych and the pound deteriorates, there won't be much purpose in them staying which is why they will leave ( Get it: they don't particularly want to live in Britain, they follow the money ).
Finch's obsession with the young and healthy reeks almost of eugenics and Social Darwinism: the fit can survive and prosper in dynamic competitive Britain and they are, after all, white Europeans as is indicated here,

They might have swelled the bloodbase of healthy stock as Britain fails to reproduce itself, the emphasis of progressives always being that a bigger population is better ."
"The progressive plan for national prosperity:
1. Bring in cheap labour - obviously drives down labour costs , and means you don't have to worry too much about educating your own people.
2. Export jobs to the third world - they'll do them cheaper, helps consumers, who can lose?
3. Increase public sector employment - I suppose we have to find something to do with locals, it is only possible to massage unemployment figures so much.
4. Borrow, borrow borrow!!!
Underlying the immigration aspects of this is Orwell's old aphorism: there is a large part of the British left that has always hated the country. Immigration is the way of remaking the country by brute weight of numbers. If an area is very British in character - deride it as monocultural and sterile; if an area has a strong Asian, African, West Indian, Turkish, feel to it - praise it as vibrant, diverse.
The mystifying thing is where the British left think that they'll fit in this re-made Britain."
"Tim Finch:
'...and public services (and public opinion) can be prepared in advance.'
Am I the only one who shuddered at that blithe statement? - 'Here's some public opinion that I prepared earlier...'
So sinister, so NuLabour."
"Superb from thedrove
TF

Change the mantra FFS!"
"Admitting Turkey into the EU would be a disaster. Having an open border with
a majority Islamic country would de-stabilize Europe. We are already having huge problems trying to integrate the existing Islamic communities."
"joseph1832;
""Underlying the immigration aspects of this is Orwell's old aphorism: there is a large part of the British left that has always hated the country. Immigration is the way of remaking the country by brute weight of numbers. If an area is very British in character - deride it as monocultural and sterile; if an area has a strong Asian, African, West Indian, Turkish, feel to it - praise it as vibrant, diverse.
The mystifying thing is where the British left think that they'll fit in this re-made Britain.""
Brilliant. Agree with every word."
at least theres one feel-good thread on cif today
calm down dear
"Tim Finch obviously wrote this before September 2007 (when everyone realised there was no more money, fuel, food or housing for unlimited increases in the population).
They just re-printed it today to generate some comments I suppose as the advertisers like to see a lot of comments as then they know someone is reading it."
This is a silly article done to wind people up. As many have commented, cheap labour only benefits the employers. Its simple market economics, supply and demand. The cheapest gets the job and don't keep saying British can't do the work. While I'm on the subject put the politicians and bankers on the minimumum wage for a bit and see how they like it. As we all know there is plenty of work FOR NOTHING.
What I dearly hope is that when Labour implode at the next election they will take their client 'think tanks' like the IPPR with them.
"Exactly. I'll say the same as I have on other such threads. The true cost of this disaster will not be apparent until the coming decades.
It doesn't matter even if the migrant is young and productive. The moment they are granted permanent residency, under UN charter, broadly speaking ""the right to family life"" they will have the right to import their family, often from cultures where large famiies are the norm and women are not encouraged to work.
That means dependent children and elderly parents. All of whom will require housing, schooling, healthcare and pensions.
If you serious think one low-skilled worker will ever recover the costs of this, then you are well into the realms of fantasy.
Chain migration will render our living standards and benefits system unsustainable."
"The greatest harm that EU immigration has done in recent years is to show up the feckless, sit-on-their-hands and whinge so-called natives up for the gits that they are.
When a Pole enters this country, working night shifts in a food packing plant and similar jobs the locals would not deign to soil their hands with, and ends up after years, by dint of hard work and application, as an HR manager at an investment bank, its hardly surprising that when he turns to one of these nativist trolls and informs him that he has paid more into the Exchequer in the few short years he has been in this country than an entire family of slum-dwelling northerners will do in their entire lives, the cretins start bleating about patriotism and a real link to the country
Like an umbilical link to welfare dependency, no?"
"Well i never knew that!
Quick question, how did we manage to build and run a country for that long before we allowed unfettered immigration, magic ?"
"The only people who favour recent eastern European immigration (or post-war mass immigration) are those who don't care about the bottom 20% of the British population.
There are perhaps 6-7 million economically inactive British adults who are capable of working, and mass immigration has enabled politicians to ignore them and NOT bring in measures to help them into the workplace.
It's astonishing that this needs to be pointed out."
"Joseph: The mystifying thing is where the British left think that they'll fit in this re-made Britain.
I'm not mystified. We are not meant to fit in at all. We are meant to get lost. This is the race-replacement that ""fascists"" and ""Nazis"" like me keep banging on about. And if we didn't do it, nobody would because the traditional left, who should be defending their own people, have been universalised and politically corrected."
"The United Kingdom IS a small and OVERCROWDED Island - that is a FACT!!
All those on the Liberal Left of Politics who espouse that the UK SHOULD have 'Open Doors' to anybody and EVERYBODY, and who screach 'RACIST' at those who oppose this open door policy are quite frankly -- well, certifiable!!.
Just where are going to put all these immigrants - legal, EU Citizens or illegals.
Whether the Liberal left etc like it or not. Immigration WILL be an election issue. This plays right into the hands of political extremists like the BNP and religious extremism as well.
Just how many more States is the Euro-land planning to integrate?
Maybe its a plan to revive the old Roman Empire with North African countries as potential members. Of course immigrants come to Britain. As has been stated previously, we have one of the most generous social security systems.
The UK Social Security System is also the easiest to defraud!! FACT!!
With a spineless cowardly government - Nues Liarbore. A useless Immigration Policy. This is all the more reason for the UK to leave Euro-land altogether.
It does state under Euro-land Law, that any member state can cecede and leave the EU at any time. But will that be allowed??
Whats the betting if any current member state were to leave, all sorts of legal, economic and threats of Military force will be made to keep them in!!
And ths is called 'Democracy!' Bugger them all, and especially double bugger Blair, McRuin, Mandelbat and all their noisome, sleaze-bound crew!!
I for one will be voting UKIP, if nothing else as a protest vote.
Bugger, Bugger, Bugger all of 'em to the back of beyond!!!."
"Sorry HuggyP,
Those night shifts in food packing plants, existed before the borders opened. You think we didn't grow food prior to 2003 for some weird reason? Guess what, we also cleaned toilets, served in bars and worked in care homes too.
They were staffed by locals, season workers (students and those with season permits) and not the bloody fairies.
I can only give an example of a regional distribution centre a friend worked in until recently. After 12 years he earned the grand sum of about £8 and hour. Other local people who were loyal to the company for this period of time earned a similar amount.
After 2004, when anybody left, the replacement was not taken from the local population and was given minimum wage. All of those still working received only rises in line with the legal minimum i.e. none for my friend. By 2007 about 60% of the workforce was from Poland, some from Estonia. At this time, employment was contracted out to an agency and all the HR, payroll etc. were dismissed.
The agency recruits exclusively in Warsaw. There is no obvious mechanism whereby a local can apply. All of the new workers are minimum wage and any remaining local workers started to be dismissed and on spurious ""disciplinary"" grounds, despite some having until then flawless 20+ year records.
So don't be so bloody ignorant. So until you experience minimum wage and zero security I suggest you watch who you are calling feckless.
You and Tim haven't got a bloody clue, have you? Come they day you are replaced or outsourced then feel free to give lectures."
"The increasingly small number of pro-immigration people like to keep the debate on the economic arguments, as at least there the position is grey enough for them to be able to confuse some fellow-liberals with their spin.
And it stops them having to deal with the other areas of argument relevant to the immigration debate, which they would instantly lose - namely, housing, health, crime, social cohesion."
"Tell me, UncleVanya, when you trot down to your local post office of an afternoon, who do you see crowding the desks to cash in their dole cheques - suited Eastern Europeans, or tracksuited, swag-bellied local mothers of six?
If anyone knows the ins and outs of defrauding the state, it's the congenitally lazy wards of the state we have fostered here since the sixties.
People who think that everything done in this country must somehow benefit them personally, who think that they are somehow entitled to everything but required to do nothing. People who, rather than embrace the challenge and opportunity that the rest of the world offers, shrink from it in fear and petulance

Good for you chum"
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"Implicit in immigration is the fact that the uk is not training it's own people for the roles in industry and commerce. This creates unemployment in the uk combined with immigration
Politicians have proved over and over again that they are incompetent. Nothing expresses their sheer incompetence more than their control of education . This is a disaster because politicians have little or no understanding of the world of work where most school leavers finish up. The wealth of the UK depends on having schoolleavers who can meet the simple demands of the world of work.
Instead politicians meet the fairy tale demands of their own dogma. In this world there is a need for 50% of the population to be graduates. There is little need and therefore little in the way of technical training for trades. Hence we have unemployed here who never managed to get any worthwhile trade training creating a demand which can only be met by immigration.
Measure after measure is introduced. These costs billions and achieve little or nothing. Presumably politicians are advised by their civil servants in the education department. If they are then these departments should be severely thinned down as totally useless for modern Britain. if they are not used and we are relying on politician's half baked ideas then the departments should still be closed down as useless.
The jobs of the people who decide new measures to improve schooling should be on the line. if their first measure fails because they have not conducted trials first etc they should be sacked. Ideally these people should be on contract so they can be rapidly dismissed if they fail. Unfortunately politicians are protected from their own failures which explains how bad departments such as education have become. The civil service is a resting place for people who would fail in the world of work."
"HuggyP
I agree with you entirely, I have no problem with immigrants as people, simply looking for a better way of life which i understand and can sympathise with. I do however think that the benefits system in the UK needs to be destroyed and built again, not just adding silly little ""changes"". I have a feeling this would stop feckless morons and decrease the number of migrants substantially. This would help the working classes, and stop traditional working class jobs being swallowed up by people who can actually afford to undercut."
"The benefits are less obvious now that recession grips, but undoubtedly farmers and manufacturers welcomes the cheap labour.
The public services paid the price.
We cannot prevent EU workers entering the UK long term but this should be matched by a correspondent decrease in work permits from other immigration sources.
As for Turkey? No tthanks, they have too far to go to merit inclusion, and little inclination for change."
It would help your argument if you you could tell us all where you got your data from. This is nonsense.
"AlanBstard1,

Problem is, Ala, that this country already belonmgs to somebody, and people ""simply looking for a better way of life"" are going to take it off us later this century.
So at what point do you become a sufficient bastard to face facts and name these people as our replacers? At what point do you say ""No, this is unjust""? At what point do you start fighting to bring the One World dictat down, for your people's sake?"
"This is a small overcrowded country which needs to reduce its population over the long term not to increase it, as does the whole world.
We had our population explosion in the nineteenth century and are still suffering the effects .The idea that we must increase the population in order to
have sufficient workers to pay for pensions is a council of despair .
Voting to increase the size of the EU was a major error which has made a bad situation worse."
"Apart from his total lack of understanding of the concept of freedom of movement inside the EU (a feature which he shares with 99% of Britons), Mr. Finch is spot on with this:

The UK gov. could/should have followed the EU consensus and apply a transitional period with respect to giving full working rights to citizens of the 2004 EU entrants: Most EU countries applied transitional periods of up to seven years, which is what common sense would suggest, and would have worked fine if every country had followed the consensus. The UK and two other EU countries decided to open their job markets from day one so a smooth and orderly transition to integrate 10 new member countries into the EU was not possible, particularly as far as the UK is concerned.
HMG, in true form, chose the worst of both worlds: Its neo-liberal/neo-Thatcherite side wanted cheap labour (so much better as it was white-aryan labour) so it opened the British job market from day one instead of following the EU consensus. Its police-state side rejected Schengen membership - thus rejecting the most basic EU principle of true freedom of movement (i.e. non policed and applying to PERSONS and totally separate to the right to work or live in other EU countries) - so that it could please the tabloids and the anti-immigration brigade (a strategy that has spectacularly failed) and also give the 'database treatment' to anybody arriving in the UK, be it Briton or foreigner."
I'd be interested to know which parts of the world have 'much lower average IQs.
"I think you have me mistaken, I was simply agreeing that this country has far too many scroungers and that the benefit system has aided both their rise in numbers and also the rise in immigrant numbers. What i would like to see is a whole new system that doesn't just affect immigrants but will also come down hard on the people who are of British nationality and believe it is their right to be able to do nothing and still survive.
When people say ""immigrants do the jobs the British wont do"", all they really mean is ""immigrants do the jobs the British choose not to do as they can make a better living off the the dole."".
The benefit system needs to be destroyed and the immigration system (not that we even have one) needs to be ruthlessly tightened."
"Hello, Mr Finch. In the interests of openness and fair play and so that we all know how to read your article, could you please tell me if the IPPR gets any funding from the EU?
Thank you very much"
"fareastender,
Pick any non-European or non- East Asian country you like and google its name with the word IQ."
"thedrove - shit, you're right, our IQs are lower. No wonder our captains of industry want to employ ferriners.
Eugenics for the British!"
"AlanBstard1,

No, I got you absolutely right. What does ""British nationality"" mean? What, with regard to birthright, is the moral difference between someone with British nationality and an indigenous Briton? Ultimately, is your loyalty to money, to the mindset of""One Race The Human Race, maaan"", to just trying to get along and not cause any trouble, or to indigenous Brits?"
"the IPPR are obsessively pro immigration.
they are quite bizarre."
"If these Polish immigrants are so intelligent, well-educated, honest and hard-working, why don't we give them the bosses' jobs?
They'd do the work for far less - saving the country a fortune - and work far harder.
Come on, Mr Finch - you know it makes sense!"
"But the government can ill afford the votes it would lose.
Mr Finch should get out and about more. Talk to previous Labour voters."
"HuggyP

No, I see lots of second/third generation afro-caribbeans, women in Burkas with six kids, and the odd white women with a mixed race kid - who's ex is no longer around. Oh yes, and my mate Dave, who's half Italian half Irish. We're all ""a nation of immigrants"" remember?"

"_AT_thedrove

If I was over 100 years old and had fought in two world wars I reckon I'd be due a period of restful retirement."
"fareasterner,
Surely, you mean East Asian supremacism, don't you. Hong Kong averages 107, South Korea 106, Japan 105.
Do you accept that these are intelligent populations?"
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"gethinych,
My Dad was taught ""The Three Rs"" and left school three months after his fourteenth birthday. After he left the RAF he entered business and rose to be MD of a manufacturing company in Blackburn. Two uncles on my mother's side built highly successful businesses. One is an MBE, yet he was called up before he could go to technical college.
We do not need migrant labour. We never needed it or wanted it. The fundamental qualities of intelligence, aspiration, and hard work are in our people like water in the rocks. We should ask ourselves why this precious resource is not flowering as it used to. We should ask why WWC boys are sometimes struggling to better African boys in school performance.
Is culture shock and assortation through white flight enough to explain that? I don't think so. I believe the educational system is not geared to respect them or to stretch them. Quite the reverse, it is geared to produce a racially integrated society at their expense. It's wrong and, anyway, it doesn't work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU6uvKixSro&feature=player_embedded"
"Parts two and three of that teachers.net video:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADtxPZaD75Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbEBgTYEoEM"
"The author says : ""the government needs to take the courage to say that migrants have helped us""
Helped who, exactly? Who is ""us"" here? Do you think mass migration has helped an ethnic white British painter and decorator, or a black British builder? Has mass migration helped struggling young ethnic white or black British new school leavers get jobs to survive, or to build a career?
Or -- is it that when you say mass migration has helped ""us"", of course, who you really mean is Polish nannies and cheap builders and cheap Azeri factory workers and office cleaners have helped YOU , the upper middle class. No body else.
And mass migration has helped slum landlords, letting their rip off houses at rip off prices to new arrivals from Ukraine, and then cranking up the rent aswell, for ethnic white and black Britons, who have little chance of getting on the housing ladder.
No -- all that mass migration has done, is to send more ethnic white Britons towards the far right, not because they want to turn to the right,( they are smarter than to be really fooled by these far right leaders on any deeper level) but because no one else is listening. Besides that,mass migration has further splintered any sense of cohesiveness in UK society , and sent ethnic white and black britons into a state of oblivion, living by hussling or by nihilism and in increased banality, hoplessness and alienation, with no allegience to any community, any idea of country or indeed, anyone or anything,
Well, I hope you liked getting your office cleaned on the cheap today by those nice Azeri fellows ( jolly cheap and hardy fellows), and getting your breakfast with a smile from that Ukrianian girl, and getting your new flat repainted by that ""lovely Polish chap""
I mean, gosh, so much better than that scary Jamaican black British fellow, or that rough working class white chap from Dagenham who made you feel jolly uncomfortable.
No wonder Uk is f*****."
"The author wrote : ""Our economy has benefited from the influx. The migrants were, by and large, just the sort we needed. Young, fit, educated, skilled, ready and eager to work. Crucially, they were able to fill skills gaps and willing to do jobs we Brits didn't want to do. Employers have sung the praises of this new workforce, with David Frost, the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, saying recently that he had never met an employer with a bad word to say about an A8 migrant.""
!!!! And where did you find such a list of cliches? Are you pulling our leg? It sounds like a collection of lines from a comedy script , with all the cliches trotted out -- I have to wonder how many ethnic white Britons and black Britons you have actually met who didn't attend LSE, Oxbridge, St Andrews, LCC and Goldsmiths? You talk about immigrants and British people as if they were cardboard cut outs, walking cliches, and not even real people.
You talk like a scout master organising chores for the lads at that jolly rough community centre for the afternoon -- not someone who is contributing to govt policy and a major think tank.
God help us. God help us."
"Good lord, talk about shrill hyperbole on both sides.
The country is not going to hell in a handcart, it is not overpopulated, the eastern europeans did very good work while they were here but are to a great extent going home. They certainly did not cause our unemployment problems.
There is too much immigration, which is putting a huge strain on social cohesion. The ruling classes have sold out the British people, again, and they should start paying attention to the needs of their voters before the whole BNP/UKIP lark gets out of hand because the British, however much they may congratulate themselves, are neither immune to vicousness nor infinitely patient.
But let's not be childish, lets not call names. And for heaven's sake, lets start getting realistic about what social class means within a community of computer users, in the context of a world which still includes mass, starvation level poverty and slavery. I mean, try not to be ridiculously chippy."
"CharlieApples,

I can't believe you said that. How about you write ""Jews are not immune to viciousness."" No? Don't fancy that?
Well, what about ""Poles are not immune to viciousness."" Or blacks? Or anybody, for that matter. No? Too racist for you, is it?
I think you should go away and think about the racism you have internalised over the last couple of decades of war on white hegemony."
"to thedrove
eh?
Perhaps I expressed myself in an overly convoluted way. I meant to say that the rulers of Britain should start paying attention to their own population because the people are not infinitley patient nor immune to viciousness.
As in, they ought to be listened to before they lose their rags.
I have no doubt that the Jews, the Poles or ""blacks"" (good grief) are equally if not more prone to getting upset, overall, on average, as a general group.
I don't understand the rest about racism and war on white hegemony that I have internalised, but perhaps you will explain, while I sit and ponder it over."
"Charlie,
Perhaps you should find another metric for comprehending how a people might properly react to its own slow, relentless race-replacement. At present, to quote someone from another thread yesterday, you are collapsing the space between the ""do-nothing kumbayah extreme"" and the mad Nazis extreme, so there can be no opposition to race-replacement that is not morally repugnant.
You are not to blame. This is what you have learned to do. You have been told it is right. You have been told wrong. Just ""start paying attention"" to the natives plight. because, God knows, you are on the money when you say the rulers of Britain don't."
"my goodness, you certainly learned how to patronise.
Isn't it a little late in the day to be discussing the politics of race in the UK, leaving aside whether race actually offers a relevant classification peg for people to hang their identities from?
Then again, I suspect that you are trying to intellectualise a middle ground between fascism and airy-fairy liberalism, like a bubble, because you would like their to be one. Because you don't want to be a nazi"
"A good article in summing up the British experience of the last accession. However the argument falls down when looking forward to possible further EU accessions.

The UK is the EU member that is notorious for not working in concert, negotiating 'opt-outs' on issues ranging from Schengen (border controls) to EMU (the euro).

The population of Turkey alone is not dissimilar to that of the last accession. Assuming the same patterns of migration (a massive assumption) including age, health, skills basis, it means a doubling up of current arrangements. Based on your positive analysis of the last accession, this is a best case scenario. There is also the thorny issue of intergration, which you have not much touched on here. It is wrong to assume that even if the same migration patterns occured, that the same level of integration and public acceptance would follow. The notion of 'preparing' public opinion sounds a bit Big Brother.

As any stockbroker or, at the moment anyway, housing speculator will tell you - past performance is no indication of future outcomes."
"_AT_Underground man, 10.33,
Great post, we really are living in political bizzarro world, when we read nominal Leftists on here arguing for mass migration basically on neo-liberal economic grounds along with the Blairite IPPR and apparently siding with the right wingers who contrast 'hard working' migrants, etc with indenous, lazy dolies' etc,
the world turned upside down indeed."
"thedrove,
If you are really worried about race replacement, there is something you can do about it you know. You don't need politicians, skinheads, xenophobics, little englanders, armchair warriors, BNP/UKIP support or empire loyalists.
All you need is a girl."
"Having sparked this exchange I am re-joining it rather late in the day, so I cannot respond to the whole gamut of reactions my fairly uncontroversial analysis (it seems to mean) has provoked. So four points only.
The issue for those who oppose (sometimes stridently) the high levels of immigration of recent years is to produce some hard evidence of the damage it has done. The fact that it personally makes your blood boil isn't evidence.
That said, it is true that the sort of research ippr and others do on this subject focusses on impacts at the macro level. Not all individuals, or even sections of society, benefit equally - and some may suffer. I think the issue of whether migration actually exascerbates inequalities in some areas is a real one and some of the left of centre think tanks (as well as the Labour government) have to reflect on that.
For those (plenty it seems) who are incandescent at people like me who think (and think we can prove) that migration has been good for the UK, take heart! The political tide is with you and all parties now are committed to very tough immigration controls. If you want to see immigration levels falling then I think a combination of stricter controls and the recession will see your wish granted in the next few years.
In some ways (for the reasons set out in my article) I think that is a pity. I certainly hope that we don't swing too far in the direction of locking the UK out of the benefits of free flows of people. However, it is important that public policy is built on consent. If the majority (and polling suggests this is true) are really hacked off with the extent and pace of recent migratory flows, a democratic government has to respond. As I say, I think ours has.
IPPR will keep arguing for what we think is right, but we are just one voice. I assure you all yours are listened too as much, if not more, than ours in the corridors of power. So no need (some of you) to be quite so angry!"
"Charlie,
Isn't it a little late in the day to be discussing the politics of race in the UK
No. It is not too late. Reversal of the Multicult is always possible - and, of course, offers life for indigenous Britons. It certainly grows more difficult with time. But never impossible.
leaving aside whether race actually offers a relevant classification peg for people to hang their identities from?
Believe me, you are extremely ill-equipped to enter such a discussion. You don't know the ground-rules, never mind the detail. You would not last five minutes.
I suspect that you are trying to intellectualise a middle ground between fascism and airy-fairy liberalism
Look around the world. Are the Japanese and the Israelis, the Chinese and the Mexicans all mad Nazis? It is normal, Charlie, for politics to reflect the interests of a people in its own territory. What is happening throughout the homelands of European Man is not normal.
Do try to think outside the left's prescription because it is a prescription for a global power elite ruling over a denationed mass of compliant consumers. It is also normal, I might add, to resist that.
AshleyBaker,
Turkey is only the beginning. There is also the Barcelona Process which, if Turkey can be ""acquired"" as the EU elites want, will transmogrify into an enlargement project."
"PresidentGas,
Did that bit years ago, Prez. Trying to do something for my sleeping people now."
Yes, because what this country really needs is a bunch of mercenaries who are all to happy to undercut the local population as long the exchange rate is good back home.
"are we talking about debate or wrestling?
Oh well, I suppose crossing your arms and being butch about it is one way of avoiding explaining yourself clearly. As in calling that spade a spade.
I am intrigued by the allusions to a sleeping people and European Man. I think I read something along those lines before. It was something of a diary, with much ado about race."
"Well, where do I start on this one? As a 30-something bloke from a working class city in the Midlands with very high numbers of ethnic minorities (or minority ethnics, I can't remember which one is PC in the UK nowadays) living there, having been long term (2 years) unemployed, having also worked for the 'Social' for several years and now currently a migrant within the EU myself, I want to get my oar in too.
Firstly, I'll just get the easy stuff out the way with first; it's all Thatcher's fault, it's all Blair's fault, it's all the fault of New Labour and the Conservatives and the middle classes and the also the upper classes and the chavs and the white working class and the bosses and the lazy feckless British workers and the evil scheming foreigners and the poor, easily duped foreigners and the EU and the UN and on and on and on.
Tim, your comment piece is all very nice and all but it's been written before a thousand times. The reaction it provokes from the blogosphere is well known and predictable. Cue comments from people going on about 'race replacement' and 'Bradfordistan', how easy the infinitely generous 'Social' is on everyone (and I mean everyone!) except them and people just like them, how the white working class (and now apparently 'the blacks' too) aren't listened to and even the odd slightly scary ideas about eugenics, IQ and 'wake up and smell the coffee' delusions. But everyone is entitled to their opinion I suppose. I've seen it all before and I'm a bit bored by the easy-to-write, audience-baiting nature of such pieces (shrugs shoulders in apathy)...
Let's have a piece written on why predominantly white, nominally Christian people from a predominantly white, nominally Christian country get so worked up when white, Christian people move to their country while at the same time bemoaning the, in their eyes, increasing Islamification of Britain by 'Islamists' (current stealth word for 'darkies who wear dressing gowns'), usually from within (according to some it's actually being done by NuLab apparatchniks too - apparently parts of the Koran have replaced Clause 4). But frankly I get a bit confused nowadays. It was only 10yrs ago that it was all 'bleeding Kosovars' and 'bloody Iraqis'. 10yrs before that it was all 'cowboy Irish terrorists' and 'Nigerians!' (I can't remember what adjective was ascribed to them at the time). Go back long enough and I expect people used to claim that 'these Romans, with their foreign ways and language' would bring ruin on the heads of the 'true, native Britons' (only relatively recently arrived from 'The Continent' themselves probably). Can one of our esteemed CiFers on this thread please tell me which is currently the most socially appropriate xenophobia to have in the UK now? I don't want to sound like an immigrant by getting it wrong when I come back for my Dad's birthday."
Isn't that the latest Dan Brown?
"CharlieApples,
You are a born collapser, in every sense. Go and live in Japan and see how a healthy people pursues its natural interests. Then when you come back stop making silly allusions. It only casts you as the racist. Or do I have to explain left-racism? Here it is in a nutshell:
The denial of humanity to one people - Europeans."
"thedrove
It is saddening to see how many labels you can attach to a person you do not know. You are a silly person, full of hate and frustration and I pity you."
"Hmmmm, please don't quote me on this, but I'd much rather have a few hundred thousand white christian eastern europeans than the same number of non white muslims moving in. One group will assimilate,so as in 20 years time they'll be totally native, one won't.
There's no getting away from that, really."
"Armedleftist,
East Europeans are not the English. The damage to English genetic interests caused by a ""white christian eastern europeans"" influx is only better than a ""non white muslim"" in degree. It is still damage.
Charlie,
You are an echo chamber. No thoughts of you own inside your head (and no thoughts of your own people, if you are English).
The ease with which you resort to claiming moral superiority - without engaging in discussion - demonstrates that, for you, the display of ""not being racist"" is what matters. It is all lightweight, all froth. You have said nothing of substance. You are not a substantial man.
Those who cleave to Nature in themselves, who are aware of you they are and of the world as it truly is, will always possess something you cannot own. You rail at them in your ""sorry for you "" way. But you can never equal them."
"thedrove: Too much Darwin and not enough evolution going on there.
So you want to reclaim your England? Are you going reimburse the mortgage payments, rents, purchase the businesses and goodwill? What about the doctors, scientists and oh, my word!!! The foreign investments!!! Better ring Lloyds or Barclays quick and say you didn't mean it.
Better still, go and have a DNA test first. All kinds of surprises swirling around in there."
"So what would Caroline Flints estimation be say if Turkey joins the EU-what inane assumptions would our government arrive at in terms of the anticipated arrivals from an underemployed Turkey?Whilst the rest of established Europe ie those that pay the bills apply the handbrake to new entrants into the risible and aggrandising EU we being dopey sods just open our borders on day 1 and every opportunist floats in to suck on the tit of Britannia-Europe does not act in concert but only in self interest-get it? All the estimates of the benefits/costs of migration/immigration are totally flawed and the whole debate is suspect because noone knows what the hell is going on-its a buggers muddle as exemplified by what we see in the Gurkha situation against the constant flow of applicants from Pakistan etc who are given the green light just like getting into Longleat really.
The whole issue of immigration has been held under the rug and our opposition parties should have been kicking bot at the behaviour of our benighted and tosser filled government."
"Pestinpest:

.
You make current concerns about levels of immigration sound like a petty,
storm in a tea cup. I think you're wrong.
Previous waves of immigrants assimilated fairly quickly. In the past, there wasn't the luxury of cheap air travel, the internet, public funding for minority cultures etc. and so immigrants were isolated if they didn't assimilate because they were cut off from their countries of origin.
Now everything has changed. This is different. Cultures are retained and differences are emphasised. Previous immigrants were often from countries that were part of the Empire, and they had an understanding of British culture. Not so with many of the latest wave of immigrants.
The numbers are also vast. Far too great to easily integrate.
There are so many factors that you have ignored."
"cmnimo,
Race-replacement in the Multicult is not ""evolution"". I assume you can tell the difference.
The options which face us are twofold:-
1. Be an unwilling prisoner of the Multicult and drift into oblivion.
2. Take control of our destiny and deconstruct the Multicult.
I don't give a damn about banks and finance or law or anything else that can be used to deny my people's right to live.
Better still, go and have a DNA test
Well, well - the racism of the left comes out. It turns out my ability to make arguments is constrained by the purity of my blood - will you be measuring the slope of my nose, next, Dr Goebbels?
It's a bizarre request, of course. Does it mean that post-1948 immigrants, having 0% English ancestry, should have no say in the debate? But no, you wouldn't have that, would you? Hypocrite.
At least you accept that there is a genetic basis to peoplehood. So you must also accept that the English exist and, therefore, have rights that other peoples have, including the right to their ancestral land.
Ultimately, this demand to take a DNA test is just another smear ... another collapse of the space between dumb white ethno-suicide and rabid Nazis, with nowhere for normal ethnoccentrism to be espoused by the English. It's just a piece of hate.
It is based, I suppose, on the ""old"" DNAPrint technique, now totally outclassed by multi-array analysis that can pin down subject origin to within 100 miles. Get up to speed, and don't talk to me like that again."
"I don't think we should get so heated over what this Tom Finch has written. Mr Finch is no doubt quite a decent chap at heart. We must remember that he's paid to have the opinions that he expresses, and paid to write the rubb... I mean, paid the article above.
The poor chap is probably just as worried as the rest of us at the possibility of losing his job to a Polish immigrant (They're so hard-working, aren't they? And so well-educated!).
But he shouldn't worry too much. And if he were to lose his job, he could always go on the dole. And if he then found it difficult to continue to pay the mortgage on his ivory tow... I mean on his house, he could always go on the list for a council house.
And if he were still not happy, maybe he could emigrate."
"thedrove: Although that was the most wonderful piece of work it would be wiser if I just chuckled, savoured it for a while longer and left it there.
The Retro English Policy. Oh boy, where to start. Best not.
SocratesAngel: You could always go to Longleat disguised as Unicorn (nicely off setting the lions), then you too can have a free pass for life to be jeered at as a con and a rip off otherwise like everyone else, you are expected to make a contribution.
There are many reasons why people come to live in the UK, most of all because we need them. I don't know about your area but a large majority of the staff are immigrants.
Northener: Yes the Poles that I have met are really hard working. They were also ripped-off en masse during the last housing boom then unceremoniously dumped. Blame the labour agencies, blame the developers, don't blame those who worked 60 hour weeks at less than 3 pounds an hour after extortionate deductions."
"The amount of agrieved people on the thread who genuinely feel very threatened and hurt by new labour's policies is evidence of the damage done, and the despair people feel.
The sad thing is, a move to the right helps none of us in the long run. It will just make Britons' hearts and attitudes harder.
Thanks to New Labour's Orwellian, Ballardian project -- that's what you get."
"GnosticMinds are supposed to be open minds.
This is EU policies combined with neo-con opportunism.
New Labour neglected to implemented sooner some of the accompanying EU legislation concerning economic migration and protection of the local labour market.
They didn't want to do that as they have consistently failed to invest in training our own young people. They just wanted the job done in order to cash in on the boom, as cheap as possible, with no commitments and no questions asked . These are Tory policies.
We have a big problem with how our government chooses to interpret EU legislation, this started in the Thatcher years when it was decided to enforce many of the small business guidelines as law, making them no longer economically viable. This was in tandem with the breaking of the once mighty labour market, done purely to control wages and inflation.
It cleared out individualism and made way for the corporate high streets we see today owned by the likes of Kingfisher PLC who are now in free fall. At the same time the market was free to pay the lowest possible wage with scant employment rights, giving rise to the two income family. In a way this was due to a combo, the importation of EU legislation and a U.S economic policy.
Seeing as both sides of the House of Commons have relied upon using these tactics as a tool to control the economy by placing it in the hands of big business, then I suggest there is some serious badgering of our MP's to be done to counter this BEFORE the next election.
The trouble is that means becoming familiar with EU law, knowing how to interpret, predict and counter its misapplications.
Economic migration is a good thing yes, when it is a trade of skills but not if it's at the expense of investment of the infrastructure or the engendering of resentments run purely for the benefit of opportunistic profiteers."
"Hello thedrove, spreading your hateful race ideology again.
You really are a fanatic arent you. I see you have added a conspiracy in the education system to keep the master race down and hide its genetic supiriority to your stock of racist fantasies.
CharlieApples
my goodness, you certainly learned how to patronise.
Yes that is how he starts. A kind patronising offer to enlighten your poor deluded mind. He has been able to see clearly while you remain deluded and your intellectual capacities just do not seem to be up to the job of seeing through your indoctrination by race replacement elites (which he actually tryes to classify as gebocide under the UN convention.)
Persist with your arguments and he gets a bit more sinister. I have observed him over a number of threads and after patrinising me he tutned to demanding to know the ethnic composition of my extended family since my views could only be explained by my having ""coloured"" relatives.
Nest step was to inform me I would be subject to forced re-education under his regime if it ever came to power.
Racists like thedrove are the enemies of the working class. The attempt to put immigration in the frame for all our woes simply takes the focus off the real issues and serves the very interests that exploit workers across the globe. Nothing suits them better than to turn one section of the workers against another.
In the modern world of global communication and transport movement of increased circulation of people is both inevtiable and desirable. Britain has historically high numbers of immigrants but aslo historically high numbers of emigrants. As a country with aging demography we need immigration to support out economy in the future.
It is also a mistake to lay the blame exclusivelty at the door of New labour. The roots of the problems were set down long before they put the new into labour. Tony Blair was the heir to Thacther and ensures that neoliberalism continued unperturbed in a switch from right to left (sic) in government.
Housing - Thatcher decimated socail provision selling off council houses and prohibiting the use of receipts from sales to build more social housing. This was just one of the many fronts in her war on social democracy. The percentage of people living in social housing as dramatically decreased over the last 20 years and socail housing has been transformed from the homes fit for heroes of the 1950s to residual provision for the marginalsied.
Gowing inequality over the last 20 years with obscene disposalble incomes at the top together with turning England in to a Billionaires paradise has exerted upward pressure on house prices.
Added to that is the flow of global money. The Bretton Woods scheme installed the US dollar as the international curency in the post war years. Japan and later China ran massive surpulses that were that were denominated in dollars and became the srouce of funds for a credit boom. With huge surpulses of capital for investment the housing market became distorted by the pursiut of profit. The cerdit explosion masked the decline in national wealth primarily through the relocation of industry abroad to exploit lower wages.
Thatcher if you recall decimated our coal industry and exported jobs by importing coal. The process has continued for 20 years with globally mobile capital playing worker off against one another.
Thacther also destroyed the working class power of the unions and striiped workers of rights and protection. Any hope that an incoming Labour government would reverse the decimation of workers rights were soon dashed. They have continued the neoliberal economic ideology and refused to incorporate the EU social charter that guarantees better rights to workers.
Low wages are not simply the ewsult of workers from abroad being willing to work for less. The minimum income gurantee to Brtisih workers is too low. A minimum income that provides a decent standard of living and reduces income inequality is what we shoul dtarget, not whether Polish workers can come and work in Britain or not.
The racist ideologues who preach racial purity and attempt to locate our problems in the sphere of immigration are enemies of the working classes, white, black and brown.
Contra A'bastard our welfare benefit system is not too generous and does not support a good for nothing culture. A decent system of welfare benefits is critical in providing workers with the support to resist the power of bosses to force worse conditions of employment on them. No benefits equals accept the working conditions on offer or starve.
If you look at areas where there are higher than average benefit claimants these correspond to communites that have been abandoned and left to die as industries have relocated. Mining towns are a case in point.
If you swallow the immigration is the root of our problem ideology you are not standing up for the working calsses of any colour ."
Good article. Why was there such preciousness about preserving "difference" over generations? Despite the tragedies of WW2, the Italian community here in Scotland is pretty well integrated. Mainly in England, after some 300 years, having a French name is the main indicator of Huguenot origins: no-one is expected to maintain the culture of 17C France, as if living in some kind of bubble.
How refreshing to read an article that recognises the contributions young people make to our communities
Since when did film ever portray society accurately? Rarely at best.
As a White Anglo-Saxon Heterosexual Male, I would appreciate being portrayed less as an upper-class, witty, and charming man about town and more as an whiny, unemployed, and inconsequential Guardian online poster; now there's a movie I'd like to see.
"Growing up watching movies in the 60s and 70s I saw a lot more movies--from the 30s to the then-present--with middle-aged and even elderly women as important, even lead characters. Over time they've practically disappeared from our movie & TV screens. When they do appear, you see complaints from younger people about seeing older women (and men)--they despise watching stories about people older than they are. We were a lot more tolerant of watching movies & TV shows with older people.
Today I barely watch contemporary films and TV shows - because there' s variety of people at all. They're all in their 20s and look perfect, indistinguishable. No character actors either."
"Eh, I dunno, but the forty-something midddle class liberal women that are shown on TV seem to get a fair share of jiggy jiggy.
I reckon they're getting my share and someone else's....
*sniffs into glass of wine*"
"Why are the UK Film Council doing this survey? Are they planning on giving the public exactly what they want?
That would be a shame."
I'm probably going to get absolutely skinned for this on here, but I do in general find black men overly sexual in the way they express attraction. I'm talking about street encounters, when I'm out and about. I find them on the whole more likely to give you a disarming 'let's go to bed right now' look. White men don't do this. Maybe it's just a style of sexuality; it doesn't mean that that's what they'd do (hop into bed), given half a chance, but that's how it feels - and for a woman alone in a public space it's too encroaching and thus it's negative for me.
who are these people? the last thing I want to see is more old people having sex on screen! I would love to see more middle aged women and men getting interesting dramatic roles though! This might include sex I guess but the sex bit should be subservient to the quality of the story and the production values. I guess this might make me just a little bit old fashioned though!
"Pointless surveys like this show how rudderless and inconsequential the UK Film Council was.
This survey will lead to a clamour of indifference, influencing nobody and changing nothing."
"allthings:
Really? I actually just checked your profile to see if you were trolling. Kinda shocked that your previous comments suggest you're actually not. It seems so unrelated to the content of the article.
I am now going to spend the rest of the evening working out whether I can give disarming, 'let's go to bed right now' looks on demand. I'm guessing I can't. I'm guessing most people can't and that maybe you're a self regarding women in her late thirties who believe that all strangers view you sexually but some are better at hiding it than others."
100% of young men dont care for wrinkly sex-just saying is all
_AT_chrisymo - you're not likely to see any, but if you do, just close your eyes and think of space aliens.
"I'm definitely part of that 80% of gay people who ""felt gay characters' sexuality commanded disproportionate attention"".
And apart from wanting to see gay characters who have a life outside the bedroom I'd like to see more gay characters with interests that extend beyond pop divas, musical theatre and telling their female friends how to dress. Some of us really struggle to remember which is which of Whitney and Britney, have never seen Wicked and would be laughed at if we tried to give style advice to anybody at all let alone intelligent women who have minds and tastes of their own.
Oh, and more middle-aged and older gay characters please - we're not all under 30 (and contrary to the stereotype nor do we all wish to be.)"
Only 61%?
"_AT_SeanBarker
Best post I've seen in a long time"
I think Status Quo fans are generally under-represented in the mainstream media.
Sorry this is off topic ... but _AT_Marshall Stack.... and with good reason.
"""100% of young men dont care for wrinkly sex""
Well what young men want is all essential."
As a Swedish male, I think there is too much focus on tall, blonde, big-breasted Swedish women called Inga. But that's just me.
No there isn't. I've never had the chance to ever "focus' on said stereotype.
"_AT_johndoe1
no one is inconsequential. Even you..."
"Theres a reason for this. Yes there is. In days gone by older people were represented on film-even older women. (Nobody had sex though really - boo).
But in the fifties and early sixties in American ABC was set up (the TV station) and it manged to persuade advertisers that overall viewers didn't matter (their overall viewer figures were not that great but as a new channel they had more younger viewers) - some very clever men told the marketing companies that all that mattered really were the 18-49 age range. What they now call 'the demo' in the US.
That age range was considered the ones who would spend their money on the crap - sorry essentials - that the marketing men were selling. The idea was that once someone had hit fifty they were 'stuck in their ways' the whole 'get them young keep them for life' concept was born.
The 18-49 demo became the gold standard for which advertisers would pay. If your favourite show is getting fifteen million viewers but a demo figure of only 1.9 it is way more likely to be cancelled than a show with 9 million viewers and a demo of around 2.7.
This pandering after the demo numbers meant tv bosses had to make shows to attract younger audiences and older audiences became almost invisible, the same thing spilled over into the movies.
So if you want to know why we don't see wrinklys on movies and in TV its not because there is no general demand, it is because they are not considered fickle enough to buy the tat that the product placements and adverts are pushing at them."
"Eighty percent of the gay people questioned felt gay characters' sexuality commanded disproportionate attention.
Errm, how do you spot a gay character in a film if their sexuality is not focussed upon?"
"It certainly is if you're a filmmaker. Because they comprise the largest and most frequent section of filmgoers. So filmmakers - particularly American ones - strive to keep them happy by showing them things they like looking at. Although I would imagine the audience for people interested in seeing young people have sex is far more diverse, as well as being larger, than the one for seeing old people.
I don't know about those surveyed, but when I go into the cinema I'm surrendering my aesthetic and moral sense to the director, in the hope of being transported into a new experience. I'm capable of managing the imaginative leap into the heads of Thelma and Louise despite not being a young white woman.
I'm not expecting myself to be 'represented' in a way that's acceptable to an 'identity' I've pieced together from demographics and culture. Because that market-led approach can result in wish fulfilment pabulum like Calendar Girls rather than, you know, art."
"Except that men over 49 are just fine.
Liam Neeson's recent film Unknown had the 59 year old star cast opposite two lovely leading ladies who are 33 and 35.
There is a greater problem with the representation of women rather than men, in the over 40 bracket. While you might get one in a movie, if they're Meryl Streep or Helen Mirren, you certainly don't get a group unless that is the entire focus of the film."
Disgusting. They should be home baking scones. Dirty old bags. Personally, I've always preferred the over 40's - more enthusiasm and noisier.
"Society seems to have an ambivalent attitude towards sex and old age, as others have noted here.
If the media allows men to be sexy (in some cases) until their prostates are larger than their brains, but casts women aside before they even reach their menopause... Maybe it's just a DNA/fertility thing.
Reproduce."
"trouble with this is that most directors think showing sexual desire is equated with rerquiring female actresses to strip to perform their sexual desire when infact it can stop at the kiss or embrace and let our imaginations run wild not breed voyeurism in viewers
i mean having an actress strip to reveal her nude form is about as awful as putting real bullets in a gun and it isn't something we enjoy our husbands seeing in front of us replacing their desire for us. it's become a poison this influence in cinema
a rethink and remake of old fashioned values that nourish relating, the things that build love and sexual interest not just the perfect pair of bodies stripping and performing sex as the only exam-ple of sex and desire
it's porn once you remove the clothes and for those actors justifying it let's just say why don't they put real bullets in guns for movies/ because it is dangerous
so is the influence of all this voyeurism breeding content of our nude female forms who set the standard for desireability as young, thin and implant victims
instead of the majority of this planet's women struggling to feel pretty inside a world whose views are becoming smaller and more narrow with every passing film.
one great example and we need more like it is Diane Keaton and Jack Nich9olson in a movie about love
bring back love that builds desire"
"Representation is for democracy. Movies are commerce. The votes are the box office. If movies starring women over 40 were good enough to attract enough filmgoers outside that 'quadrant', more of those films would appear at multiplexes instead of on limited releases. But they aren't. If there were more directors around of the calibre of Coppola and Bigelow things might be different too in terms of solo female leads (though one's too hip for huge mainstream success and the other too thoughtful to be Michael Bay). But there aren't. Or if there are, they aren't good enough to break through. Women between 50 and 75 are 'underrepresented' in films because they're underrepresented in audiences. Which is fair enough.
In fact, apart from Reece Witherspoon, it's stars over 40 like Aniston, Bullock and Berry who make a lot of the running (Keira Knightley wasn't the star of the Pirates trilogy any more than Orlando Bloom was).
I read today that Elizabeth Taylor was the first actor to earn $1 million, for Cleopatra. Good for her."
_AT_ gab08: I agree completely about nudity not being required for erotic scenes. One director said the sexiest scene he'd ever filmed was a female hand coming out of the door of the honeymoon suite to hang a "Do Not Disturb" sign on the doorknob. What more do you need if the viewers have any imagination at all?
Yeah, no thanks.
"gab08 - ''i mean having an actress strip to reveal her nude form is about as awful as putting real bullets in a gun and it isn't something we enjoy our husbands seeing in front of us replacing their desire for us. it's become a poison this influence in cinema''

Seriously???
And I would argue it is not a one way street. I mean we have this week alone the rather lush Channing Tatum stripping off a fair few times on the big screen. Bradley Cooper gettings his pecs out on a regular basis. And when it comes to tv the powers that be know that nothing gets a fanbase like some good looking guy/s. Ask all the girls who watch Supernatural why they do? I doubt it is the plots.
It really isn't porn if it isn't porn. Nudity does not equate porn and neither, actually, do sex scenes. Some might be porn, some might be touching, or erotic, or boring, or crap etc.
But not even the worst and most stupid and rubbish sex scenes (I'm thinking Showgirls here) are quite as bad as real bullets in a gun!!"
"Jehenna - 'There is a greater problem with the representation of women rather than men, in the over 40 bracket. While you might get one in a movie, if they're Meryl Streep or Helen Mirren, you certainly don't get a group unless that is the entire focus of the film.'
Not true. The highest paid actresses and biggest box office draws are all in their forties, Jennifers Lopez and Anniston, Julia Roberts, Cameron Diaz, Halle Berry, Sarah Jessia Parker etc. But yeah I think once women get into their fifties and sixties it gets harder for them to get good parts.
But it does seem to be slowly changing. Helen Miren and Judi Dench for a start never seem short of work, neither does Meryl Streep nor Diane Lane or (and I have to say I can't stand her acting) Diane Keaton."
"I don't think that men in that age group are all that interested in an accurate portrayal of their sexuality. I think ""Don't ask, don't tell,"" pretty much sums it up.
_AT_gab08
But the Jack Nicholson and Helen Hunt pairing was disgusting in, ""As Good As It Gets"", (as have been most of Woody Allen's recent on-screen romances, IMHO).
Even ""Witches of Eastwick"" was pushing it for me. As was ""Wolf"". Good Lord, I'd never considered Nicholson in this light before. He should have stopped at ""Pritzi's Honor"" the filthy ..."
"_AT_criticalsource Yes I know it was a bit random and unrelated to the main content of the article. I suppose my motivation for saying it came from increasing annoyance at the Guardian and a certain wing of British culture which thinks that the laws of political correctness can and should be made to permeate and dictate every level of cultural life. And I think this is wrong; to do so is to willfully ignore other important things - not just some of the more complex contradictions about human experience and behaviour, but day-to-day, common sense ones. Such as my experience; I was just saying my truth; I don't see how you can contradict me on that. I am not imagining it from the bubble of my own self-regard as you put it. I have found it to be true that black men have a more predatory style of sexuality and expressing desire. Clearly you are not one of them. OK; but that doesn't make my (ability to make a) generalized comment about black men illegitimate; both because I am basing what I say on numerous encounters and because you are not all black men. I'm sure there are a lot of women who would agree with me on this too, but this isn't the right blog for them to be speaking; it's more of a feminist issue.
And this article is a bit like 'let's gear the whole UK film industry towards addressing minority rights'. Never mind about creative license or any of the other things that drive people to make films. And with something like this, it's a bit of a redundant argument; I can equally imagine say, gay people complaining that there isn't enough focus in a film on the sexuality of the character. In order for all these groups to be represented as they wish, thy need to be making their own films; and I genuinely hope there comes a time when all these minority groups can no longer be called such, and get to produce their own culture, represent themselves; but that's not the case here is it? It's all about representation by others not from those groups."
"_AT_allthings
You say

Just for the record, I am a woman and a feminist and I disagree completely. I have found that a 'predatory style of sexuality' is something found in many (not all) men but which doesn't strongly correlate to any particular ethnic identity. It really does depend on the man. There's my 'truth' to set alongside yours. However, the whole argument of 'this is my truth, so you can't contradict it' fails to recognise that statements like this are speaker-relative. You may as well say that chocolate ice cream's better than vanilla; it may be 'true for you' but that doesn't make it a meaningful statement about the nature of chocolate ice cream. We can question whether fully objective research is ever possible, but I am certain that the UK Film Council have got much closer to it than you have.
And on the 'this doesn't allow for creative licence' argument - how is it being 'creative' to show people in accordance with tired old black/gay/older person stereotypes? Surely more creativity would be shown in stepping outside these characterisations, which is surely what the respondents of the survey would like to see."
"_AT_ MarshallStack


There's the Hamster on Top Gear who dresses like he's in a Quo tribute band."
"_AT_Princesschipchops
All the women you mention started out movies in their late teens and early twenties as sex objects, doing nude and/or topless and/or bikini scenes. That doesn't take away from their abilities and achievements as older actresses who I'm happy to watch, but they all had to pay their dues when they were younger. And they are the exceptions in an industry that regularly ditches 99% of its actresses when they hit forty. Look at Jamie Lee Curtis for example.
The problem with the likes of Judi Dench and Helen Mirren and Keaton is not that they still get work, but that they are the only mature actresses that still get work. Not every actress wants to carry on scrabbling for major Hollywood parts when they are in their 40s and 50s, but some do."
"Yeah, well try being bisexual and see how well you are represented in the media.
The only time bisexuals are ever portrayed it is because they need to break someone's heart by having a partner lead some kind of sordid, secret life, or just generally just because they want to bring in an overly promiscuous character.
It is absolutely not an accurate portrayal of ANY of the very many bisexual people I have known throughout my life and it's definitely not true of me.
What's more, I'm sick of seeing people in films and television 'turn' from straight to gay after one sexual encounter or realisation of attraction to someone of their own sex. It's never considered for a moment that people may actually be bisexual or that they may just be growing aware of a broader interest.
It's ridiculous, it's insulting and it's worse that it's never addressed - or that we're lumped in with 'gays'. That isn't who we are."
Film producers, especially in the English language, have largely lost interest in giving substantial roles to middle aged/older women.The cineplexes are full of content aimed at the young.I used to have a membership at a local indie cinema(Sheffield Showroom), but I now prefer to watch foreign language movies at home.They are the only films I see on a regular basis which cater for middle aged/older people/people with a brain.I also sympathise with lesbians and gays who are portrayed often in prurient , negative ways;the same goes for non-whites.I think it`s too late to change Hollywood companies` policies; many of them apparently can`t be bothered to make films for adults anymore, because they just aren`t lucrative enough. It`s down to television to supply the deficiency, but British TV has been negatively influenced by US style shows, to some extent.
How about less sex and more story?
"Inferiorize
Women between 50 and 75 are 'underrepresented' in films because they're underrepresented in audiences.
I suspect that Women between 50 and 75 are underrepresented in audiences
because they're underrepresented in films!
I very rarely encounter a film I'd actually like to go and see - and that's partly because of the unrelenting stereotypes - female characters put in the film just so there can be some sex in it, or as an authority figure for the hero to kick against - you say films with older female characters aren't good enough to get made - but there are so many formulaic films around, so many films made for a stereotypical teenage male demographic - just SO much utter rubbish!! - that does get made.
Marketing people can be wrong. They stated that nobody is intererested in older women characters, especially more than one at a time - but Calendar Girls was successful, and Mamma Mia was a runaway success.
There must be lots of brilliant, engaging stories that never get made into films... I read a lot of books, and some of them strike me as having distinct possibilities... it just needs people in the film industry and those that fund it to take a risk, a leap of the imagination...
Don't know if that will happen, but one can but hope!"
Harold and Maude 2 anyone?
"quirkydragon


I was in a checkout queue today and spotted a chocolate chicken among all the chocolate eggs. What came first? I'm not generally so dogmatic about the power of the market, but if men under 25 pay these producers' wages (they're the most prized of the four 'quadrants' because they're likeliest to watch new releases in their critical first week, and likelier to drag their girlfriends to Terminator 4 or Star Trek, rather than be dragged to Almodovar or a romcom), they're the ones who get to see their dreams fulfilled on a big screen.
I read novels for a pretty successful film production company (for terrible money) and make recommendations for which ones could be filmed based on my impressions. They're nearly all terrible.
All it takes is for anyone to write their own dreams down over about 100 pages in 10 point courier in a way that is compelling to millions of people, and all this will change."
"_AT_Eightieschick
OK point conceded on the second count; I was wrong there.
But the first I'm not so sure about; the truth of how someone looks at me is not really just all in the way I perceive it is it? We don't all live in solipsistic bubbles where nothing objective can be said about the truth of our interactions and exchanges, even ones as cursory and impersonal as a look from someone on the street. Thus taste for ice-cream is not a particularly helpful analogy here (true by defending my argument with the 'it's my truth; you can't contradict that' I allowed it to fall into the category of the purely subjective, and thus have that charge laid against it); but that was not my original point. What I'm talking about is a kind of street knowledge, that can't be verified in this context and that it isn't in this (Guardian CiF) context particularly acceptable to talk about, but this doesn't make it nonetheless false."
"To be perfectly honest, there will always be someone who is represented poorly in a movie. In the 80's the Brits and Russians were always the baddies. In the 90's the Arab nations and Eastern Europeans were the baddies...
I appreciate we're not talking about action movies necessarily, but I do feel that when we, as a society, look to movies to represent our lives or particular group, we're in a lot of trouble.
I've found alien life forms to be represented poorly in the movies. The ones that took me up in their ship had no interest in eating me or invading. We had a game of bridge, some sandwiches and a glass or two of port."
Actually can I just say I do feel like I've acted like a bit of a p***k in my comments on this blog; a bit uncharacteristic really...I don't know what came over me, some repressed side of my personality probably! ...sorry everyone
He can speak out and say all he wants, the general public have spoken and continue to speak, and the UK will have to stop accepting economic migrants and bogus asylum seekers, and will have to round up and send home the one's that are already here. Woolas is irrelevant.
"Of course younger Catholics will speak out. Why shouldn't they? Catholicism can be very subversive at times which is why some governments and those in authority don't like it. Remember Archbishop Romero.
Quite apart from the religious aspect, it's self-evident that immigrants with jobs should be treated in conformity with the law and not be exploited as skivvies so that the British economy can survive. Britain is not the Roman empire, reliant on slave labout to keep its grandeur afloat.
Is anyone really suggesting that British welfare recipients would gladly take on the jobs that the immigrants are doing? So if the immigrants do go, who will fill the work gap?"
Then the catholic bishops should learn that nothing they have to say as catholic bishops matters to anyone outside of the catholic hierarchy.
"_AT_Brusselsexpats

You mean the jobs that are paid at well below minimum wage with no tax and national insurance, no employment protection, no health and safety precautions? You're right, the scum that employ these people couldn't get British citizens to work for them under those conditions. That's the whole point."
"Is it internet talk boards or the subjects of asylum and immigration that strip all moral and ethical considerations out as irrelevant?
Oh, Woolas seems to be affected to so it must be the subject matter."
What if the immigrants are gay priests? Where does he stan on that issue.
"Quite how the self-interested statement of Cardinal O'Connor can be described as ""having nerve"" escapes me.
This is a man who was too cowardly to report a peadophile priest to the police (instead he helped silence the family, and moved the priest to pastures new, where he abused more children) - too cowardly to admit what he had done (he said he ""was sorry that these things had happened"", and claimed that in the 80s, nobody knew about such things), and has been firmly opposed to every bit of progressive legislation for a decade (forming an unholy alliance with religious bigots of other faiths to do so).
Just to emphasise his status as the Vatican's hired halfwit, he such a towering theologian, he wrote an article here, supposedly about the horrors of secularism, but actually about atheism - aparently he doesn't understand the difference!
Appealing for tolerence of immigrants is a noble thing to do, if it comes from someone who doesn't have a history of intolerence, and such an obvious self-interest. If he showed half the concern for gays, pregnant teenagers, or the freedom of people not to believe what he does, then I might be more impressed.
Many Catholics that I know despair of Cardinal O'Connor, and regard him largely as a Vatican yes man, with little or no moral authority."
"http://www.church-poverty.org.uk/resources/reflection/a-new-deal-on-asylum

_AT_Danot
the general public have spoken and continue to speak.
Yes, fed by lies from the Daily Express, The Mail, etc.

There is no danger of this issue not being on the agenda of the next Cardinal, there is support across the Bishops on this matter."
"_AT_venerablejohn

Of course, if the public don't agree with you, it must be because they are being mislead by the Daily Mail.
Problem with that is that I've never read the Daily Mail and have come to the conclusion that this country is suffering as a result of immigration. In fact 95% of the population don't buy a daily newspaper, and rely on the television for their news, despite this we still have an overwhelming majority arguing to cut back on immigration.
Did it ever occur to you that people have heard all the arguments made by your type and have decided not to accept them? Did it ever cross your mind that you are wrong? Probably not."
"Danot, not that one!?! You are using the logical fallacy of ""appeal to the majority"", just because the majority of people believe something, doesn't make it right or true.
The majority of people would bring back hanging, etc......Did it ever occur to you that the majority might be wrong sometimes? Probably not."
"Yes, how dare the proles protest at what's happening to them. If the liberal squires had their way, they'd be sent off to conform centres.
Venerablejohn
""Danot, not that one!?! You are using the logical fallacy of ""appeal to the majority"", just because the majority of people believe something, doesn't make it right or true.
The majority of people would bring back hanging, etc......Did it ever occur to you that the majority might be wrong sometimes? Probably not.""
And that's precisely why the liberal elites are so despised and why the country is going right wing.
The Guardian class - those right wing authoritarians who laughingly call themselves left wing - think the proles are there to be taught and conform to their twisted unrealistic views on life.
Having worn out old insults like nazi and fascist, they now use BNP, and Daily Mail because to them that is an insult. Now that their only hope of wrecking the country via Nulab is fast diminishing, they are desperately seeking another party to gain control of."
"_AT_venerablejohn

I've not doubt that you think that you know better than the majority. You are after all a sky pixie worshipper who's wisdom has been imparted straight from god. For the rest of us life isn't so black and white and we choose to accept the rule of the majority, in a system called democracy. You and your type have had your day, preaching your superstitions and prejudice, now you are irrelevant., get over it."
"BeautifulBurnout:

The choice is not just between housing and supporting of all of the millions of people around the world who would like to migrate to Britain and a policy of every man for himself.
If you want to maintain a reasonable quality of life in Britain, and maintain the welfare state and the NHS, you must restrict the number of people who enter into the country and consume its resources.
You have to realize that the land mass in Britain is a finite supply but the number of potential migrants is not.
Between 1999 and 2006 the word population increased by 500 million people and most of them would deserving of the right to migrate to Britain as the majority of the population growth occurred in developing nations.
That's more than eight times the entire population of Great Britain.
You can't take them all in so there must be some form of restriction put in place and those restrictions must be enforced."
"Beautifulburnout
""The country is moving more to the right because they are scared - the structures that we lived by and relied upon are collapsing and they are looking for someone to blame it on.""
Those structures have been erected by previous governments using neoliberalism. Nulab helped strengthen it. But it needs a majority of scared people to maintain it. Now they have wisened up to their failed policies, they are letting it collapse.
""And Phil Woolas and the BNP are happy to blame it all on immigration as it is so much easier to point the finger at Johnny Foreigner and distract from the real problems which can be summed up by the way in which the UK behaves as a society both at home and globally.The real questions are:""
No. This is just diversionary tactics used by neoliberalism. People blame the government and businesses who exploit Johnny Foreigner. JOhnny Foreigner gets the blame when they come to live off benefits and/or demand we adhere to their culture. Neoliberalsim demands we do, so we fight among ourselves.
""Why did we get into this mess in the first place?""
See above.
""What can we do to change the way in which we function as a society to avoid getting into this mess again?""
Rule by majority. Enforce democracy, and that means to all sections of society -no get out clauses for medieval cultures.
""What forces people to emigrate to the UK?""
Nothing forces people to the UK: Are you mad?
""What can be done to deal with them compassionately while they are here?""
Get them to obey the law.
""What can be done to make their homes safer for them so they don't have to emigrate in the first place?""
Nothing. Meddling in their affairs has proven disastrous.
""Unfortunately, most of those questions result in answers that the leaders don't want to consider, because it would mean admitting their own failures in policy, as well as admitting the cause-and-effect of selfish national actions as creating increasing poverty and disorder in other countries.""
True."
"Unfortunately the comments on this article seem to have descended into the usual yah boo stuff about immigration.
The real point of the article, and of Cormac O'Connor's remarks is that a substantial number of businesses and individuals in this country are illegally exploiting immigrants and migrant workers. We need to campaign for a proper policing of the laws, to stop this immoral behaviour."
"Just a suggestion.
This is not - exactly - about what is the right (morally, prudentially, economically) immigration policy for a state in general. It's about something slightly different.
A one-off amnesty for irregular migrants - whatever one thinks of it - has as its primary or necessary aim not reshaping immigration structures to suit this or that political view (one interesting feature is that some people who are not of the left have supported it - Austen Iverreigh has written in favour of it in...The Spectator), but rather a response to the predicament of thousands of irregular migrants. This predicament stems - in part (and this is not to cast blame) - from the inadequacies of immigration practices over the past decade or two. Of course, it also stems from the fact that migrants have come to this country. It is premised, as I understand it, on the notion that the predicament even of irregular migrants should nonetheless be of concern to others, both insofar as it shows up deficiencies in immigration from a state perspective and also insofar as such predicaments are often very difficult.
Of course, one problem is that it is not hermetically sealed from politics. For a start, I imagine that it's not politically viable. (The philosopher Michael Dummett has noted how immigration policies are necessarily shaped, at a state level, by the necessity of getting votes: rather obvious, I guess). One common response has been that 'irregular migrants' is a euphemism: these are illegal immigrants, they have broken the law, they are, in a manner of speaking, criminals.
This is true. But the amnesty suggestion, though dynamised by a moral concern, is also an attempt at (imperfect) pragmatism. An amnesty would mean that most current irregular migrants declare their status. They would be placed on a (four year?) probation after which citizenship could (though not necessarily) be open to them. The pragmatism lies inasmuch as this would allow government (and the public) to get a far better idea of the current profile of migration in this country.
I don't know whether it's workable. But the suggestion of an amnesty serves two important functions. First, it highlights that there are certain dues one has to people qua people even when they are irregular or illegal migrants. Even States have certain obligations to (or limitations on what they can do to) people who are not their citizens and/or have broken their laws. For what it's worth, I think refusing to talk of migrants in a reductive way and acknowledging these points is quite compatible with seeking more restrictive immigration policies. Second, it highlights the fact that the current modus operandi simply does not work insofar as there are large numbers of irregular migrants. Those who are angered by the very existence of these migrants miss the point insofar as huge numbers of them have slipped the net: even if we want to chuck them all out, this isn't going to happen for the simple reason that we, er, don't actually know where or who they are. No other suggestion has (quite so audaciously) hinted at the possibility of getting a better grasp on the situation, something which I imagine is important to those concerned with the demographics and administration of migration.
A separate issue is asylum seekers. It is a no brainer that those who are awaiting a decision (often for a long time) can be caught in an awkward situation and that this needs addressing on humanitarian (or whatever you want to call it) grounds.
Another question on asylum is to do with the nature of tribunals. That there are 'bogus' asylum seekers I don't doubt. But the other side of this is the problematic of evidence: what is demanded and what is likely to have been gathered by those seeking asylum (not many, I imagine, have kindly written letters from native dictators or whatever explaining that their lives or livelihoods are in danger). There is no simple solution to this problem, though I imagine it would help if this specific question was not politicised any more than it need be."
"maziu

Who is exploiting them?
I think the illegal immigrants who are being paid less than the minimum wage are more likely to be working for other immigrants rather than working for British people.
Remember the cockle-pickers?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article695308.ece
More exploited migrants:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4979936.stm
You're right that better policing needs to be done to stop these immigrants who are trafficking other immigrants into Britain and then exploiting them."
"tomper2 posted
Nov 25 08, 11:23am (about 4 hours ago)
It was also reported, in the Tablet, that the Roman Catholic bishops of England and Wales will, at that time, proclaim a hard-hitting ""letter to the nation"" lamenting the collapse in our civic fabric and calling for a renewal in ""public life"".
Then the catholic bishops should learn that nothing they have to say as catholic bishops matters to anyone outside of the catholic hierarchy.
hi tomper2
It certainly matters in the US, where the GOP has fallen all over itself trying to follow Vatican diktats are contraception, abortion and stem cells.
I wonder whether these compassionate clerics will advocate the use of condoms to reduce the spread of AIDS."
"_AT_Danot - BeautifulBurnout rightly chastises you.

There are many classic examples of believers appealing to things which their interlocutors cannot possibly accept. But there are also classic examples of ad hominem arguments which quite absurdly bypass or gloss over what this or that believer says and focuss on the fact that someone is a believer. Taken to its macabre conclusion, anything the believer says - from ""I love you"" to ""I'm not sure whether Wittgenstein is a behaviourist"" - will face the retort, ""Well, you're just a sky-pixie worshipper"". This is the rhetoric of rationalism gone horribly wrong.
It would mean that when Peter Benenson worries over the plight of political prisoners spilled over into a concerted letter writing campaign in 1961, the Portuguese autocracy would have done well to write back saying:

In fairness you do embed a response to the substance of VJohn's point in your reply. You say,

Purely in practical terms, it's not clear just what it means to say that democracies simply entail ""rule of the majority"": in what measure is this so or not so?
Electorally, this depends on the voting system. Legally, this depends on the legal settlement. And so on. The USA, UK and Germany all show v different ways in which, loosely speaking, ""majority rule"" is instantiated. They are palpably different democracies.
Moreover, there are plenty of ways ""majority rule"" is not enacted. There are identified (and not unchanging) limits to what ""majority rule"" can enact in both practice and theory. The other point is that majoritarianism - loosely, the primacy of a certain body of people - is sometimes responded to as an excess in a democracy. It is curious that one peculiarly democratic impulse is to safeguard different constellations of 'minority groups'. This is, emphatically, not majoritarianism.
To put it simply, democracy - the rule of the demos or the people - is not the same thing as the rule of the majority, even if - for practical purposes - some formal procedures involve majorities (as in elections). A different question is whether this or that social value is justified simply by virtue of being a majority value. History suggests that - at the very least - this might be challenged.
None of this, of course, is helped by the idiom of sky pixie worshipping. Rest assured that I won't respond to you by simply noting that you're the kind of person who resorts to the 'sky pixie worshipping ad hominem'."
"_AT_Danot

Yes, wanting a fair system for people fleeing persecution and death, Stone Age ideas indeed!! Move over for Nietzsche, survival of the fittest. We exploit these countries for our own economic gain, by supporting tyrannical dictatorships (we like), and filling their pockets with the run off from exploiting their mineral and labour resources. Then these ordinary people have the cheek to escape their crushing poverty and persecution to seek a better life and what do we do? ""Pull the ladders up Jack, I'm alright.
I'd hate to be on a sinking ship with you."
"_AT_Danot
if you are a boss, there two people to employ: one is willing working hard to make a living, another one just don't care about the business cause he got the goverment support. which one will you choose?
if you choose the first one, how can you pay the NI if he CAN NOT get a NI number, how can he see a doctor if he is REAL(not fause) sick cause he CAN NOT register to a GP?
at the end of day , business go to survive. that is point."
"_AT_venerablejohn
You wrote:

Interesting. But mightn't I retort by noting that you do, after all, worship a sky pixie?
To this you might reply that this does not address the questions at hand.
And this, I might concede, is a reasonable point. But I would also add that it is undermined by the fact that you worship a sky pixie.
Here, you might become frustrated and note that this is nothing more than an ad hominem argument.
True enough, but even that is difficult to accept insofar as you worship a sky-pixie.
Your problem, my dear and most venerable VenerableJohn, is that you haven't got the whole critical thinking thang worked out.
If you did, you'd realise that in order to make an argument about migrants or dictators or economics or government policies - in sum, a valid argument about anything whatsoever - you're going to need to apostatise :-)"
The moral of the story: avoid countries where English is the first language.
"_AT_BeautifulBurnout
Quite. I don't just have Danot in mind. It's critical finking, man.
Suppose you said

I'd nod in agreement and say I can't disagree with that.
Suppose VenerableJohn said, oh I don't know,

I wouldn't know where to begin. There are so many holes in this that it becomes one big hole. Like a donut just without any, er, donut stuff.
Fundamentally, I wouldn't be able to accept this because VenerableJohn - have I mentioned this? - worships a sky pixie.
But, I'm a decent enough guy. Or maybe I'm just not so rational.
If he grovelled for an hour or so and apologised personally for his role in the burning of Giordano Bruno back in 1600 and swore an oath of allegiance to the falsifiability criterion and promised not to raise the question of whether the falsifiability criterion meets its own requirements and agreed to wear a sign around his neck saying, 'I am no longer relevant', and at least considered apostasy as a course of action - if he did all of this, then I might be willing to reflect on the possibility that"
"I WANDERED LONELY AS A Sky-pixie
I wandered lonely as a Danot
That floats on high o'er CiF and html,
When all at once I saw there was no Godot,
Just A host of ad hominem from hell;
Beside the postings, beneath the logical falaciees,
spluttering and blustering in the breeze.
Continuous as the stars
that shine and twinkle on Comment Is Free,
Ad-hominem they stretched in never-ending line
along the margin of each postee:
Ten thousand postings saw I at a glance,
tossing their ideas in sprightly dance."
"Choo Choo
I don't agree with Venerable Johns arguments but I respect his opinion, he is also intelligent, unlike yourself who appears to be about 16 and very pleased with himself because he's heard and learnt the expression 'sky pixie'. Time to go back to the playground and learn a few more to regale us with."
Torturer!!!
Oy! Not all obnoxious twits are teenagers!
"tomwolfe
I think you might have misconstrued Choo Choo's motives, he is, to use the vernacular, taking the piss."
"_AT_MartynInEurope
Quite. It would be tortuous for all. In my defence, I can't help it. I just am irritating. I'm so irritating that I'm telling you that I even recommended your ""Torturer!!!"" post.
Quite right too on teenagers. As people will know from the Grayling threads, I am but seven years old.
Damn! See! There I go again.
_AT_TomWolfe
This is painful. It has all the embarassment of a prank that was going swimmingly until a sudden encounter with a straight face scared us seven year olds to our socks.
I'm surprised you didn't get the (admittedly, not very funny) joke. The real Tom Wolfe would have got it. I'm not saying he would have been impressed.
I was trying to poke some gentle (and not so gentle) fun at the absurd incorporation of the clamorous 'sky pixie' charge into ad hominem arguments. I've even got problems with talk of 'sky pixies' in general.
I respect VenerableJohn. I called him venerable for pete's sake. And, sometimes, we both argue for pete's sake. Most tellingly, we often high five.
This will be even more gruelling and embarassing if your post was a complicated joke, a sort of mimed mock frown.
Shall we all put this strangely viscous flurry of posting slurry behind us and move on with our CiF lives?"
"Prince George: I say, Blackadder, are you sure this is the PM? Seems more like an oily tick to me. When I was at school, we used to line up four or five of his sort, make 'em bend over, and use 'em as a toast rack.
Pitt the Younger: It doesn't surprise me, sir, I know your sort. Once, it was I who stood in the big, cold schoolroom, a hot crumpet burning my cheeks with shame. Since that day, I have been busy every hour God sent, working to become Prime Minister and fight sloth and privilege wherever I found it.
Blackadder: [Casually] I trust you weren't too busy to remove the crumpet."
"O'Connor? Bold?
This man forfeited my respect (and I would hope many other people's) several years ago when he turned up on the Radio 4 Today programme to defend the recently-confirmed Vatican line that married partners of HIV victims in sub-Saharan Africa were not allowed to use condoms.
He had the chance to say the Pope was wrong. That would have been bold.
He's a milksop and a mouthpiece. He has done nothing, ever, to earn my respect.
His words may have killed a few more people though."
"The whole Idea about immigration raises several vastly different sentiments form ""O dear let us help those poor persecuted people"" to ""My god my sons famiiy been living with us for two years now and still can't get a house, and now they want to shove him further back in the que"" to "" we already can't get past our doorstep without some foreign gangster accosting us"". It depends where you live how well you live and what ""enriching "" experiences you have had.
So let us look at the facts With 61 million people on this small land area the UK already has a population density of 267 persons per square kilometer approximately double that of China and more than 8 times the USA and about 60 times that of Canada. Yet the UK Has had an immigrant growth ( immigrants and descendants of those same immigrants) over the last forty years of approximately ten percent of her entire population. No other country in the entire world reaches 1 quarter of this rate of change except Israel with its influx of diaspora Jewry. Every other country in the world, even those few who accept immigration, demand that legal immigrants work and not become a burden to the state.
Next, just as few countries in the world are as overcrowded as the UK there are few countries where it is a difficult to obtain housing as the UK. and regularly young working class unemployed people are passed over for large immigrant families in housing preference. Not only that, but working class public schools are producing less and less educated young adults. The state run British public school system adopting modern trendy teaching methods has no resemblance of the world leading system of 50 years ago and has utterly failed its pupils. The UK has more than fulfilled by any reasonable conception, its share of the worlds humanitarian obligation to aid the needy, has fallen victim to the avarice of the greedy globalists, and desperately needs to take care of its own. This is not racism, it is just common sense.
Of course common sense is something that is bred into the common people out of hard necessity. Soft living seems to have bred it out of the toffs, who seem to be all for the immigrant seeing how it cost them nothing personally and depresses working class wages and therefore costs on those unavoidable occasions one has to deal with the lower classes to fix ones toilet or ones auto.
The coming recession might get some sense back in their heads . In Any case it is time to close the door now and sort out those, of any race, but numerically far far likelier to be a minority than not, who think criminal activity including oppression of women, is an acceptable lifestyle. Oddly enough there is only one Party that is actually ready to get on with the job rather than making noise but doing nothing, And it's party symbol is not a red rose, nor a blue one nor yellow nor green. It is the red white and blue of the BNP. These same toffs will tell you you are a neanderthal slug for voting for the BNP , and the Nulabour lefties will call you Nazis but happines is seeing the misery on all these LIB LAB CON faces when come voting day the red white and blue comes out on top. After all it is said that misery is much more bearable when spread around."
I would like to know on what basis people claim that the "pretend we're not racist party" is the same as RESPECT?
"Choo Choo -
I hope that you will forgive me if I take you mildly to task concerning Danot's observation.
As ad hominems go, this is one of some sophistication, and is a clever riposte for use in all kinds of situations. Let's look at it in detail.
1 Danot invents his concept of a ""sky pixie"" - or perhaps adopts it for his own personal appreciation.
2 We know that this is a concept not lightly arrived at. Danot does not read the Daily Mail, and therefore has time for developing well-worked concepts. Think of how long it would take to read the Daily Mail each day, and how much one can save by not even glancing at it.
3 Danot ascribes his concept to VenerableJohn (or in other circumstances, it could be anyone else)
4 Danot then points that, in using his (Danot's) concept, VenerableJohn is ""irrelevant"" and kindly suggests that he should ""get over it"".
In this process, Danot shows his ingenuity as well as his passion."
The real point of this article is that substantial numbers of businesses and individuals in this country are illegally exfoliating CATHOLIC immigrants and migrant workers and OConnor is stupid enough to think that nobody will notice that the church didnt give a damn when it was non-catholics in that position and fall for the line that he or the church cares about immigrants per se. The very idea is ridiculous. Are catholic bishops supporting rights for immigrants in Catholic countries where the immigrants are non-catholic? I think you'll find the answer is, mostly, no.
"_AT_xxyx

Is this the real point of the article?
Some (catholic) clergy and laity in California, for example, consistently press for the rights of migrants. The catch is that the majority of migrants in the Californian context are Mexican. They're catholic, in name or otherwise.
In September, US catholic bishops deemed it worthwhile to enact some corporate pronouncements and pressure on immigration. The rationale was, in part, because of a feeling that immigration was receiving insufficient attention in the presidential race and overly negative attention in the media. More specifically, they expressed grave concern over government raids of workplaces in search of illegal immigrants because of cases of what they called ""the dislocation of US citizen children from their parents"". (There is, I understand, in practice an intergenerational loophole when it comes to citizenship).
In both cases, it is not simply catholics who have voiced concern or pressed for action. Catholics - as catholics know all too well - have no monopoly on good acts (for sake of argument, let's say this sort of thing is a good act - despite my sympathy, I acknowledge many strongly and not unreasonably disagree).
The question is this: is there such an almighty abyss separating the rationale of catholics and non-catholics who pursue these ends, and is there anything we can point to which illuminates this reading - you know, other than the fact that some of the peole are, er, catholic?
My knowledge of immigration in the context of catholic countries is poor.
In Spain in 1991 - at the time of the second of the five 'legalisation' programmes which have been enacted - I do know that the programme stemmed, first, from governmental research into the realities of illegal migrants. They surveyed and realised that the vasy majority of resident aliens intended to stay and bring their families over. The programme was seen as an imperfect but practical and humane response. But, second, it was also catalysed by a dialectic between some media organs, which produced figures which alarmed the public: and immigration rights and church groups, who argued for the human rights of these migrants and pressed for some sort of amnesty. Of course, not all these migrants are catholic. A tiny point: in Tarifa, in southern Spain, I remember hearing about the local catholic priest consistently organising Muslim funerary arrangements for those Morroccan migrants who had died on their attempts to cross over into Spain.
Back to London. The Strangers into Citizens campaign has, launched two years ago, incorporates a motley mix of groups and individuals: churches, trade unions, migrant rights groups. Corporate supporters include the Immigration Advisory Service, Refugee Action, the Lib Dems and the Institute for Public Policy Research. Various individuals have lent their support too: NIck Clegg, Jonathan Sacks, Billy Bragg, all four mayoral candidates from earlier in the year and, er, Cormac Murphy O'Connor.
For all I know, O'Connor may be a cowardly man, as you imply, or even an evil man, as stevehill implies. But, the idea that he (and presumably other catholics, like the campaign director, Austen Iverreigh) supports this campaign simply to aid CATHOLICS (capitalised or otherwise), while the others, presumably, do not requires more than just saying it is so. And it also requires more than just loosely referring to what catholic bishops are said to do - and not do - in catholic countries and also to what his predecessors are said to have done - or not to have done - in this country. The principle of charity whispers to us to take what he says at face value unless we have strong reason to think otherwise. Power or self-interest can certainly motivate and even form the basis of catholic action. But it's dangerous when we inadvertently require people to apostatise before we stop demasking every utterance.
Next time I'm near Westminster, I'll check out the cathedral's homeless centre, The Passage, to see whether the 49 beds are only reserved for homeless people who have rosaries.
But, moreover - and here's the beautiful thing - even if you were right, and this is what the evil, gangly cardinal is really after - it's still not the real point of this article, of this sort of argument on migrants. The fundamental point are the rights and wrongs, the realities of migrant life."
what, the wall fell? Why didn't told me anybody?
"I agree that the fall of The Berlin Wall played out the triumph of individualistic capitalism on a global stage but I suspect that 30 years of union-bashing may have had a more immediate, local influence. The decline in union power coupled with New Labour's shift to a ""we're all middle-class now aren't we?"" policy of individual opportunity rather than collective responsibility has denied the British working class both a political voice and a cultural presence.
Gillian Evans captured some of this in her Guardian Society article in October 2006 which quoted a Bermondsey woman as saying: ""We are the backbone of the nation and no one gives a fuck about us."" (the article is still online here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/oct/04/communities.guardiansocietysupplement ).
Left-wing plays by a new generation of young playwrights defaulted to a ""it must be ghastly being poor"" pitying tone, peopled by the middle class caricature of working class culture full of pregnant teen-agers and drug-addicted under-achievers to provoke middle class guilt rather than working class entitlement.
The left has abandoned the working class to the extreme right politically and the arts have abandoned them to reality TV (""you can do anything if you want it enough"" which translates into ""if you fail it's all your fault"") and American corporate musicals and films."
This welcome article opens up a chance to take the analysis further. It is certainly true the fall of communism and the election of a Labour government left politicised theatre practice wondering what to rail against. However I don't think any of us quite expected the way this quasi paralysis would spread in parallel with the ascent of privilege as part and parcel of theatre practice as the notion of the theatre worker evaporated and the industry has become increasingly amateurised. It is terribly alarming to see how New Labour?s quiet reinvention of the power elite (albeit imagining itself a liberal and progressive one) has seen a confident re-establishment of privileged educational and class backgrounds as the qualification for power in the upper levels of our cultural institutions. The legacy of New Labour isn?t just a broken economy, it is also the re-establishment of a privileged elite and when you add all this together, it surely means the essential conflict between socialism and cadre power brokering remains virtually unchanged since the 1970?s.
I really should read the front pages more carefully.
"I'd love to hear about contemporary German theatre and what you've learnt about it in Prague.
This current piece feels like an interesting idea, but that you are slightly struggling to fit the facts to your thesis. A bit like Marxist theories of history, appropriately enough."
"Brilliant article.
Those from the East know the two sides of the coin of living under communism in the twentieth century. A deadening drab uniformity and paranoia on the one hand, and on the other achievements to be proud of: state childcare, employment, a generally productive culture of citizenship and social responsibility. There is a reason for some of that 'Ostalgie' you know. The rush to embrace the West lost some of its tarnish when we saw that some good things were being lost. But, in the end, living with Big Brother was not sufferable.
In Britain progressive theatre has been concerned with social injustice under political parties of either persuasion. But always under some form of free- or regulated- market democracy. The debate seems to be about that tension: the essential paradox between democracy and unfettered capitalism.
In recent times the main dramatic question could be said to have shifted from: How are they running the state? to Who is running it?"
"If you have old and kaput socks you will look for new ones, buy them and throw away that old pair.
But after a couple of years your new socks will be worn out too."
"Where in Europe isn't? The UK has in total more lifers than France, Germany and Turkey combined and each of these countries on their own has a higher population than the UK.
And yet both Labour and the Conservatives talk tough and send every more people to pointless and expensive prison terms."
"""When you listen to the justice minister, he generally emphasises the need for reintegration into society rather than the need for punishment."" Oh, if only we had that enlightened attitude in Canada! Instead we have a Prime Minister who focuses only on punishment!
This seems to be his personal position as well as his Conservative supporters in Alberta. His need/desire for more punishment even causes him to claim that more punishment is required in order to reduce the sharp increase in crimes. There is no evidence that crime has increased and lots of evidence that in most types of crime, crime has decreased, but that's less important than the votes he will get from those who love someone who is ""tough on crime!"""
"This TV debate was very interesting, and the description fits well. The inmate was the clear winner of the debate in the opinion of most viewers.
I would encourage Great Britain to consider Norway's handling of criminals. Whether you believe criminals to be simply unfortunate, ""let down by society"", or you believe them to be evil by nature, you should expect them to be released from prison at one time or the other. Unless you have the capacity (and moral) for a vast use of life-time imprisonment or the death penalty, that is.
You should consider that time the inmates spend in prison as very prescious. It's during that period you've got the chance to influence their life courses. If you prefer beating them and punishing them, restricting their access to education and common benefits of society, what you achieve is strengthening their identity as outcasts, increasing their perception that society is not for them, their view of themselves as predators feeding on those law-abiding, naïve citizens to whom they owe nothing.
In Norway, such a view on prison politics is common, mostly among the Progress Party followers. But generally, we understand that these inmates will one day become our neighbours, our colleagues, the parents of the classmates of our own children. It's in our own interest that these criminals feel attracted to once again joining up with society.
As a law-abiding and productive member of society, I've got a lot to lose. These guys, they've got nothing to lose. If we manage to give them something, something valuable to hold on to, they too will see that it's in their own interesting to abide with the law. We need to help them build the inner motivation to be normal, regular citizens.
This isn't naïve, it's working. You should try it, too."
"Perhaps the proposed edition of Newsnight with Nick Griffin or some other BNP bigot on the panel could take place in a prison. Give the number of criminal convictions amonsgt the BNP leadership, it might at least mean they'd get some audience support from the their friends in the criminal fraternity. And perhaps Griffin could 'accidentally' be left behind when filming is over.
To be less frivilous, I think this sounds like a far healthier attitude that the usual British approach of stuffing as many people into prison as possible and stigmatising prisoners instead of trying to educate and rehabilitate them. Unfortunately, our tabloid-led political agenda prevents such progressive ideas even being proposed by mainstream politicians."
"Criminality is totally out of control in Norway.
Norway is the country in Europe with the biggest increase of criminality.
Many years with liberal, naïve politic has destroyed the country.
If you want solutions, then DONT LOOK TO NORWAY!!"
"> Criminality is totally out of control in Norway
Some wants to create that impression, but all the evidence proves otherwise.
See Norway Statistics www.ssb.no/english/subjects/03/05/"
Dennis33. You either live in a tent on the moon with little more than a pile of Swedish detective novels for company,or you don't have a passport.
"dennis33 said:
Criminality is totally out of control in Norway.
Norway is the country in Europe with the biggest increase of criminality.
Many years with liberal, naïve politic has destroyed the country.
If you want solutions, then DONT LOOK TO NORWAY!!
yeah!! ye got that right! pretty much out of control over here..
btw, does british police officers carry guns?? I mean.. with live rounds an' all?.. that's just WICKED!!"
"This fails to mention 2 things:
First many do not bother with worker registration, especially in construction, catering and seasonal labour so the truth is as usual ""nobody really knows"".
Original projections were 9-12 thousand per year, so presumably there had been no planning whatsoever for the other hundreds of thousands. These people require housing, transport, schools, benefits (they qualify for income support etc.). Was this costed when we were told how wonderful this all was?
So it's hardly surprising the government are uncomfortable on this subject as they clearly failed with even the most basic of their duties in this area. That need not imply any judgment of the situation, only that government have been, well, utterly crap in managing this."
It would also be interesting to see how the Eastern European immigration data for the UK compares with other Western European countries like France, Germany and the Netherlands.
'these people' do not qualify for income support, A8 and A2 cannot claim out of work benefits unless they've been in registered work for a year. Sorry to piss on your bonfire.
"Yeah, but how many people (de)register when they leave the country? I am British but live in Germany. Yet the UK government is not aware of this as I haven't informed them.
So it cuts both ways."
"It's a shame Mr Brown didn't take the time to explain to Ms Duffy that ""all those Eastern Europeans"" probably have a legitimate right to be in this country because they hold an EU passport, just as Ms Duffy or anyone else who is a UK passport holder has the right to move freely and work in the EU. Rarely is the distinction made between asylum seekers, immigrants and illegal immigrants.
Personally, I have no time for people who easily take a swipe at hard working low-paid legal migrants who often take jobs that unemployed UK citizens sometimes find unpalatable. The political parties and the media should not sensationalise what happened yesterday and seek to analyse why someone feels they should make a comment which, let's face it, should be left in the 20th century."
"It's a shame Mr Brown didn't take the time to explain to Ms Duffy that ""all those Eastern Europeans"" probably have a legitimate right to be in this country because they hold an EU passport, just as Ms Duffy or anyone else who is a UK passport holder has the right to move freely and work in the EU. Rarely is the distinction made between asylum seekers, immigrants and illegal immigrants.
Personally, I have no time for people who easily take a swipe at hard working low-paid legal migrants who often take jobs that unemployed UK citizens sometimes find unpalatable. The political parties and the media should not sensationalise what happened yesterday and seek to analyse why someone feels they should make a comment which, let's face it, should be left in the 20th century."
"The UK can live, surely, with 1 worker in 50 having come from eastern Europe?
Mon Sumo - not yet allowed in France and Germany."
"so what you are saying is that I'm right then reebee?
Actually, you are not quite right. Any EU citizen who has paid into national insurance for around two years qualifies for the EXACTLY the same benefits as a British worker. This includes tax credits, housing benefit etc. I'm sorry but this is utterly indisputable.
Now that's quite right, but is this factored in when we are told of the benefits of mass imported low wage labour?
It seems like a lose-lose to me. On one hand we pay our people to be out of work and on the other we subsidise poor pay through the tax and benefits system. A British worker does not break even in tax contributions until about £24k or so.
Does this not apply to migrants under the same conditions?"
"I would like to get a table showing the numbers of UK born people living in other countries in the EU. For example, I've heard estimates of between 1-2 million British people in Spain - there must be similar numbers in Portugal and France.
Again, it's difficult to get correct numbers because there are so many people working without permits in bars or as TEFL teachers."
"I would suggest given the number of Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish number plates on the cars driving UK streets that many have just arrived?
Perhaps just visiting, you say?
More likely, since our minimum wage is so high in spending power terms, (PPP figures from Low Pay commission) http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/lowpay2010/appendices3.shtml
they are seasonal workers who will drive across Europe again when the season is done.
I notice the NMW in France is (since devaluation of the pound) higher now than ours, so may be they will be grape picking in Bordeaux come July. Or perhaps I will be. Don't be thinking it's 35 hours max. working week in France. Who is checking the farms and the labourers with several jobs.
It is called freedom to work in Europe. Like it or not, I suspect it's here to stay."
Please can somene also define the difference between an 'expat' and a 'migrant'? Are British people 'expats' living in Spain or are they 'migrants'? What do Spanish people call them?
"dattoria and reebee are spot on- from the Polish perspective at least the issue is that of pendulum migration: you travel back and forth from the home (Poland) country to the host (the UK), earning money when there is work there and returning home when there isn't. Most Poles have little or no desire to stay in the UK. Far from being a drain on the economy they have arguably boosted it and Mrs Duffy should rather be concerned about the scenario of if the thousands of Polish doctors, plumbers, electricians and nurses really did bugger off back to where they came from - her retirement would be considerably harder and more expensive.
By the way, here is a little something to confirm dattoria's hunch - the 11% inactive are probably no longer in the country and, as a result, aren't draining the UK's resources too much...or at least only as much as the Canucks...perhaps we should get rid of the Canadians too? and that useless bunch of scroungers in 10th place...
Rank Country of birth Employed Unemployed Inactive
1 Australia 88% 3% 8%
2 France 86% 3% 12%
3= Canada 85% 2% 13%
3= Poland 85% 4% 11%
10 UK 78% 4% 18%
source:IPPR report, 2007 http://www.ippr.org.uk/publicationsandreports/publication.asp?id=563"
"Why in hells name we have to issue all these Worker Permits for Eastern Europeans with 2.5 Million unemployed, Goodness only knows.
Dont tell me about 'Cheap Labour' These are government stats and these folks will get the Minimum Wage.
Its Maastricht again! Someone ask Cameron what he is going to do about it! It was the Tories that took us into Europe and signed up to Maastricht in 1992!
Boris also wants Cameron to give amnesty to 250,000 illegals living in London to 'get them in the system'. That will add to public sector borrowing when they claim dole and housing as part of the European Human Rights!"
"Haardvark
'First many do not bother with worker registration, especially in construction, catering and seasonal labour so the truth is as usual ""nobody really knows"".'
Well if the figures aren't to be trusted (how convenient) then how about anecdotal evidence? A friend of mine runs a small letting agency in Leeds, a couple of years ago Polish plumbers and labourers were ten a penny in our area, last year harder to find and now like hen's teeth. With the collapse of the property market and big construction contracts there simply wasn't the work so they buggered off back home.
Did you moan about the thousands of brits who went to work abroad in the construction industries during the eighties when Tebbit told them to 'get on their bike' after the Tories destroyed their livelehoods in Britain?"
"Migration flows to the money.
Here in central europe we have hundreds of thousands of workers from Ukraine, Russia, etc.
They work for low wages in occupations vacated by those of our own who headed west.
Before you get so hung up on all this, you should consider the possibility that with manufacturing, banking, etc heading to the Far East - you lot may have to get on your bikes soon..."
"There are about 280k British people in Spain, mostly retired. The difference is they can never qualify for benefits (if you are retired you cannot contribute to the social fund through wages) and don't compete for work. They don't have access to any equivalent of the NHS (they must pay health insurance).
Most live on private UK pensions and released housing equity. In fact this is why some have left because the value of Sterling has dropped 30% to the Euro. All in all, this is a massive earner for Spain, although some complain about inflated house prices."
OK, let's trust the official figures 9-12k PA vs 703k. The point still stands; the government did not plan for this.
"Surrey dude
well i personaly have no time for some one who has there head in the sand and doesnt know/care what is going on.
For Brown to say there are a million here ( made up round fig ) and a million brits are abroad is a total whitewash of the facts to patronise one of his own people.
Name me another country where immigration has had such an effect on localised communities. A million Brits spread throughout EU is different to a million EU in England ( 90 %)
explain to me, If we are all equal why a E.E can come here and claim our family benefits and then send there family home and still claim all the benefits and the real kicker is when they leave they are allowed to keep all the benefits ?
check it out, its a fact.
there are now more babies being born to Poles and Portugese than to Brits the pressure on the social services is extreme.
drinking driving is now basically anti social, not for eastern europeans its not.
try Boston lincs, it has a massive population of eastern europeans 60 odd different languages spoken in a town of 200,000 ish
try the local hospital where if you are local you have to wait at the back of the que whilst others get seen first cos they want to get rid of the interpretors at 80-100 pound an hour.
ive lived in europe and there isnt any where else affected as much by immigration as the UK, and your subtle hard working low paid innocent migrant worker is frankly bollocks, speak to the Police forces, social services, caravan site owners ect, you might get a different picture, not twisted news articles that paint a pretty picture."
True, the government didn't plan for this, and it's another reason for slapping Labour round a bit at the election. But I don't see that the numbers are actually a problem for Britain and I'm certainly not going to vote for anyone proposing punitive action to deprive us of people who make - in my eyes - a generally positive contribution to our economcy and society.
Anything that means I can now get Zywiec polish beer in this country cheaply is a good thing by me.
There's quite a big difference between wealthy Brits moving abroad to retire / educated Brits moving abroad to fill specialist jobs and predominantly unskilled migrant workers coming here to provide cheap labour for Labour backers. To pretend otherwise is simply misleading. Sadly the Tories are peddling the idea that you can somehow equate the two as well.
"I'm still looking for the facts
That is: how much immigrants are costing the NHS
how much it is costing us in benefits and pensions
how many school places and at what cost
how much housing is taken up by immigrants
how much crime is due to immigrants
how many illegal immigrants there are
why so many are trying to get out of France and into Britain"
Whatever the figures, immigration bings the whingers out of the woodwork - work-shy at that.
"haardvark

And this is a bad thing, how? Surely if someone pays NI, they are then allowed to ""reap the benefits"" for having contributed to the system? Or are you advocating that a Polish immigrant who has been working in the UK for two years plus, contributed to NI, paid taxes, set up home and built up a life doesn't deserve the benefits of the system should he or she lose their jobs or be unable to work for some reason? Seriously? What would you do - send them back to Poland once they've stopped being useful?"
"Could someone please tell me if the figures for Eastern European migrants include dependents or are they just those available for work.
I have heard of many stories of Romanian 'gypsies' flooding certain towns in England (eg Peterborough) causing no end of social disruption. Are these stories true? If so , what the hell is going on. It is not right for 'liberal' thinking people to castigate people who have to live close to some of the less welcome immigrants.
I have a belief close to the Green Party in that this country can only support 30m people and that constant , unsustainable, economic growth is not the way forward. It is my view that economic migration, welcoming cheap labour, is not helpful to social cohesion and integration."
"No. That wasn't the point. The point is people who earn low wages do not make a net contribution to the economy, especially when social support is taken into consideration (and you could argue money sent home is lost to the economy too). Therefore it does not make sense to import more low wage workers, when you already have people to take these roles. those other people do not suddenly disappear either, therefore it's a double whammy and effectively a taxpayer subsidy to low-wage to business.
Immigration only works if it releases labour to be more productive. I see no evidence of this happening. In fact it cannot happen during a recession. The evidence points in the other direction in fact as GDP/capita has fallen since 2005, whereas it's increased in most of the EU.
There are many ways you can grow an economy. Germany post war invested in machinery and education and they are the world's second largest exporter. We opted for immigration and we are not. This is hardly surprising as growth by immigration is pure 3rd world economics, the reason why a farmer wants as many strong sons in many places in the world whereas the developed world mechanized.
We've been here and done this before remember. The mills of Lancashire were fed by workers from Pakistan in the 1960s to keep Labour costs low. The mills went anyway and the net result is two unemployed communities instead of one.
I just want us to learn from our post-war mistakes and use the resources we already have effectively. The resumption of mass migration only happened in the last few years, is anyone seriously arguing those jobs didn't get done without it? That would require a massive failure of memory."
I'm sorry but immigration is out of control in the UK. I'm all in favour of controlled and planned immigration but what we have had in the last decade or so has been neither controlled nor planned. There are huge numbers of jobless and poor immigrants in the UK at the moment and it's unhealthy.
"_AT_Haardvark
Then surely the question you need to be asking is why generic EU folk are getting the jobs rather than British people, I didn't realise we were deliberately 'importing' anyone."
"People really need to distinguish between EU and NON EU immigration!!!!!!!!
EU - you can't do anything about it; it is the Tories fault as they signed the treaty! However it means we can travel around the continent without being interrogated like NON EU citiizens
NON EU - Labour is very, very tough on these people! Overly harsh in my opinion to make up the fact that they cant do anything about people from the EU"
"How many of the people leaving the UK are retirees who are not seeking work in other countries?
How many entering the UK are not looking for work? Not many I would think."
"Whilst I could not care less who comes here as long as they work/contribute to society these figures are clearly wrong. Most of the Poles I know work cash in hand and are invisible on the radar for instance so it is safe to say you can add a few hundred thousand to that figure.
If ID cards were compulsory for ALL we would know exactly what was going on, perhaps to a better degree than now and could properley plan Health, Education etc provisions better. Whilst I am sure some are happy for anyone to come here, live in the shadows and be exploited I would rather more control, better for everyone."
"The way migrant labour is used to insult British people in the bottom quintile is as vile as any xenophobia faced by Eastern Europeans. Not only that, these insults - ""they're lazy, they think they're too good for crap jobs, etc"" - betray a lack of understanding.
The migration balance proves that Eastern Europeans, overwhelmingly, are not settling in this country.
This fact is used by many to indicate that the debate is overblown: ""hey, they're all leaving, what's your problem?""
But the migration balance is at the very heart of the problem.
Eastern Europeans come to the UK to work for set periods of time. As soon as their pockets are full, they saying goodbye to the poor living and working conditions they've endured in the UK and start afresh in their home country.
They never intended to live 12 to a house in Slough for the rest of their lives. They came to work hard in poor conditions for as long as they could stand it, and then go home with their reward.
But here's the key factor:
The wages they earned in the UK will stretch a long way in Poland or Lithuania and will enable them a lifestyle they would not have had access to in the UK.
In effect, they've been working for greater rewards than their low-paid, low-skilled British co-workers.
Unlike their British co-workers, they have a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
And we're wondering why they seem so industrious and uncomplaining by comparison?
It's because they have greater incentives to be industrious and uncomplaining.
The influx of labour from Eastern Europe has had the greatest benefit for the well off - for business, for middle-class people looking for cheap tradesmen, etc.
When the lower orders point out that the situation doesn't have any benefits for them, those who do benefit cry ""Bigots! Lazy! Ignorant!""
It's an attitude that crosses political lines. Norman Tebbit will defend Eastern European workers in the Telegraph as much as a Guardian editorial.
But it seems there's nobody to defend British people on the bottom of the pile."
"haardvark:

The figure of UK nationals officially resident in Spain for 2009 was 374,600 an increase of 227 per cent over the 2001 figure of 107,000 - nowhere near the 1 - 2 million quoted elsewhere but, nonetheless, a figure that is increasing year-on-year. And, I suspect, that the real figure is at least two or three times as high, owing to the huge number that don't apply for a residents permit, especially those who stay for, say, six months of every year.
As is the law, Brits have exactly the same rights to benefits as Spanish citizens - my kids get the subsidy for school books and have, in the past, received free school meals - just like their Spanish classmates.
I can assure you that we are entitled to free treatment under the excellent Spanish national health service and that I personally cost it quite a lot of money.
If you don't work, you don't pay national insurance and you aren't entitled to a state pension based on your contributions (there is a non-contributory one, if you can be bothered to go hunting for it) but if, as claimed, the majority of British are retired, then they will have a full pension based on their contributions in the United Kingdom and - importantly for a pensioner - free access to the health service.
Of course, if you want to use the health service or to take advantage of any other benefits on offer (and they are different to the benefits in the UK) you do have to be able to speak, read and write the Spanish language and, very importantly, fill out your annual tax return (the declaración). And the vast, vast majority of British ex-pats in Spain simply can't be bothered. They live in British communities where they don't need to learn another language and are ritually and routinely ripped-off for their laziness."
"'aeddan' at 4.17 is the AUTHOR of the IPPR report he quotes, none other than Danny Ishkandaria.
The IPPR is a shill for New Labour. A year or so back it reported that all of the EE nationals had gone home!
Today, following Brown having expressed his true opinion on immigration and its opponents, it reported that perhaps the PC left have been too harsh in calling anyone who disagreed with NuLabor's open doors immigration policy 'racist' or 'bigot'"
"Nice try, PigFace2 - I am with you wholeheartedly, but I've long since given up trying to argue that one. I am a Brit who has been living outside the UK but in the EU for the last 20 years. In that time, not one person - not one, anywhere in the EU - has ever so much as looked at me as anything particularly unusual. I'm not retired, nor anywhere near it. I have, to use the language of Little England, in my most recent country of residence ""stolen a job"" from a Czech person. And no-one has ever even questioned it.
Let's just face it: the Brits are an island race, and the biggest island problem they have is the one in their heads. There was never a good idea had anywhere south of Dover and anyone over the sea is a foreigner, a potential job-thief, benefit-scrounger, health-tourist, and certainly no good for anything.
Once you have accepted that, you'll find it a lot easier reading some of the comments in this kind of thread.
God, it's depressing, isn't it?"
Some more facts; since eastern Europeans were allowed to live and work in the UK, the amount of women sex-trafficked into the UK has doubled, and amount of children sex-traffiked into the UK has tripled (Office of National Statistics figures)
"Haardvark-No A8 nationals or their families are entitled to social housing or benefits unless they are working and are registered on the Worker Registration Scheme. Once they have completed 12 months of registered work, they are not entitled unless they are working, unless they stop work because of illness or become ?involuntarily unemployed?. This requirement lapses after 5 years of working
You don?t have to register if you are registered with HMRC as self-employed but you will not get any benefits or be entitled to social housing if you stop work.
If you are not registered either as an employee or self-employed you and your family are not entitled to benefits or social housing.
The rules are even more restrictive for A2 nationals. (Romania and Bulgaria)
So in other words Eastern European migrants only have a right to social housing and benefits if they are working/have worked and are paying/have paid tax and NI. This is not a requirement for UK nationals. I would be interested to see the reaction if it were."
"Haardvark-No A8 nationals or their families are entitled to social housing or benefits unless they are working and are registered on the Worker Registration Scheme. Once they have completed 12 months of registered work, they are not entitled unless they are working, unless they stop work because of illness or become ?involuntarily unemployed?. This requirement lapses after 5 years of working
You don?t have to register if you are registered with HMRC as self-employed but you will not get any benefits or be entitled to social housing if you stop work.
If you are not registered either as an employee or self-employed you and your family are not entitled to benefits or social housing.
The rules are even more restrictive for A2 nationals. (Romania and Bulgaria)
So in other words Eastern European migrants only have a right to social housing and benefits if they are working/have worked and are paying/have paid tax and NI. This is not a requirement for UK nationals. I would be interested to see the reaction if it were."
"_AT_OFPrague

That would be those bastards from Folkestone and all points west then ;o)
I've been an immigrant in my host country (in SE Asia) for over five years, and while no-one's complained about me stealing a local job, people do complain about migrants from countries in the region. What really pisses me off, though, are the british ex-pats whinging on about how the 'immigrants' are killing Britain when they themselves haven't lived there since the nineties, being 'immigrants' themselves.
Grrrrr!!!"
"This debate could go on forever...
I'm pleased the Guardian has chosen to publish bare facts, even if these stats can't give you the full picture.
I'm also pleased there are people on here outlining the benefits of immigration, Brits being able to live/travel wherever they like in the EU, and highlighting the need to distinguish between the different types of immigration.
Hammy966 - I grew up in Boston, Lincs, and listening to the locals bang on about 'foreigners' all day long made me really angry, and now I visit Lincolnshire as rarely as I can. However, over the years I've come to realise that the people there (and elsewhere) do have a genuine reason to raise the immigration issue - the local population has been massively transformed in a very short space of time.
I live in London now where I think it's easy to see all the benefits of immigration, however I can understand the anger of some people in certain parts of the country, where the benefits can be less tangible (although I believe still as real) and the negatives more so."
"_AT_atlantisguy

Compulsory? You mean like the way it is compulsory to declare earnings or to not enter the country illegally? If someone breaks one law why wouldn't they break another, why wouldn't they just not have an ID card and why wouldn't rogue employers turn a blind eye to this?
Unless you want Police randomly stopping us in the street asking us for our ID then ID cards are pointless. This is why many of us are so against them. Because they are pointless unless they work in this way we have to assume that this is how will eventually be used, regardless of current denials."
"OFPrague,
Nicely put!
I'm a Brit who found work in another EU country after my work area
(IT) caught a distinct cold after 2000. I could curse over the South Africans
who ""flooded"" the IT world in the UK in my speciality - particularly as they were welcomed in the UK, but Brits, like my daughter, were not allowed work permits in SA.
But I don't, because the EU gave me an opportunity to work outside the UK.
Due to the EU, many Brits have found work in the EU abroad, and a brilliant thing this is too - to our mutual enrichment.
Good luck to the young Poles etc. who have been happy to drive buses and pick vegetables in East Anglia and act as flight attendants on Ryanair etc.
These little Englander, xenophobic anti-East European workers in the UK types should visit Poland - they might understand a bit better why Polish young people are happy to graft in the UK - at least for a while.
And it has been greatly to the advantage of the UK - which did not pay for the education of these workers.
On the other hand things are improving rapidly in Poland - and many will return to their homeland.
The UK has always benefitted from immigrants - nothing has changed.
An Island race always needs new blood and new ideas."
The basis of this is really our desire for cheap goods & our unwillingness to to take on the appaling pay & conditions that are necessary to provide them. No one asks why we dont have clothing factories in this country to make the clothes we buy, because ultimately we know we dont want to be the ones making them. The majority of jobs unskilled EU labourers take on are ones no one British will take, but ones the employers wont pay more for because it will price them out of a massively uneven market.
"I've lived in France for the last 20 years having left UK in 1989. My eldest son was born in UK and my 4 other children were born in France. Would my 4 younger kids be regarded as ""froggies"" should they return to ""Blighty""?
It's a fact that there is a ""black economy"" with people working undeclared and shows a further problem in what is a complex immigration situation. This problem is evident in France too! The major difference is that Brits emmigrating, in the main, do so to retire, whereas those coming into UK are coming to work.
Any future government needs to re-think and fix the immigration question in a sensible, firm and fair way."
"Chriswr:-
""Unless you want Police randomly stopping us in the street asking us for our ID then ID cards are pointless.""
Not so. The police in Germany (according to a constitution agreed by the allied powers, incuding the UK) are not allowed to stop people at random and ask for their ID cards - but Germans must have an Ausweis (ID card) by law - and also be registered as living at a particular address.
On the other hand 99% of Germans would wish to retain the current cradle to grave, every 10 year renewable photo ID card system (the first one is free at 18).
An efficient and effective ID and residence registration system helps to prevent illegal immigration and people stealing your identity - amongst numerous other benefits (negligible false ID fraud for one).
That's why Germany has few illegal immigrants despite pretty open borders.
The pople who moan over illegal immigration also moan over ID cards - fully illogical"
"When my mom came to this benign, tolerant, fair-minded country she was told she needn't bother applying for quite a lot of jobs, and that herself, blacks and dogs weren't wanted as tenants of vacant flats. She did what Poles and Eastern Europeans by the thousand are doing now: worked hard, paid her taxes, obeyed the law, got on with her life.
It seems bitterly ironic to me that a lady named Duffy has said intolerant things about Eastern Europenas: Duffy is an Irish name, and my dear old mom was Irish.
It is very sad that politicians are running scared of saying boo to working-class Labour supporters when they say intolerant things. I think Brown was right to call her a bigot, and she ought to cast her mind back to the No Irish Need Apply and No Blacks No Dogs No Irish days, which aren't too far off in the past."
Immigration is not a technical problem. This is a mental problem and English problem. Many of Poles came to the UK as a normal European country, but now they found this economy in the state similar to Polish financial system in seventies, ruled by communists. They also can find terrible level of education and plenty of people have been living on benefits for years. Additionally they can now see that even politicians from the ?left? are afraid to explain what xenophobia is. In few years they can come back to Poland as they soon can feel that UK is not a part of Europe. In such circumstances the strongest discourse has Griffin... but he should think twice before he gives any money to immigrants to make them back to their countries of origin. He must spare some money for future generations to rebuild London after his fall...
"dattoria says :-
"" I am British but live in Germany. Yet the UK government is not aware of this as I haven't informed them. ""
You are being a bit naive here.
Your passport was not ""swiped"" or read by a machine when leaving/entering Germany(Schengen) or the UK?
The airline or ferry company was not obliged to relay its data to the powers that be?
Within the EU there is a lot of data sharing going on for anti-terrorism and other reasons.
There is a ""logging in"" and ""logging out"" system in the UK, but it is not fully operational - depends on your travel mode.
If you live (legally) permanently in Germany then the German gov. will know all about you - angemeldet and so on - and for many purposes will share this info. with the UK Gov. when requested."
"_AT_Xanderharris
Great post. Very perceptive."
"One of the myths regarding immigration/emigration is that UK emigrants are largely retirees.
May be so as regards France and Spain.
Not so in Germany. Full of well educated Brits who find it far more congenial than the UK.
Instead of worrying about the economically useful east Europeans who once
came to the UK in great numbers, it might be a better idea to focus on this continuing brain drain.
Winding down manufacturing industry in the UK gave many Brits no alternative than to find work in high-tech Germany.
Few wish to return to the UK amongst those I know in this category.
A shame - maybe a return to high-tech engineering would not be such a bad idea."
"haardvark:

...and they also invited a lot of 'guest workers' to immigrate and help rebuild their economy, many of whom stayed and raised families with German nationality, just like in the UK."
"In our population of 61m, it's the 201,000 (3.3%) who came this year who make everything wrong.
Brown did indeed call a spade a spade."
"What no one seems to notice is that Eastern European immigration is about to end. How do I know this? Demographics.
Most of the Eastern European immigrants were young, between ages 20-25. Approximately 19 years ago, the birth rate in Eastern Europe began to plummet.
You can go to a 1991 New York Times article to see how much it was dropping (the birth rate continued to fall after the article was written).
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/31/world/birth-rates-plummeting-in-some-ex-communist-regions-of-eastern-europe.html?scp=1&sq=%22eastern%20europe%22%20birth%20rate%201990%201991&st=cse
Ironically, the immigration will stop just as the UK baby boomers start to retire. In addition, Easter Europeans of the A8 will be allowed unfettered access to Germany and Austria next year, and many will prefer to emigrate to a neighboring country rather than to the UK. All the while, as Eastern European economies improve relative to the UK, the incentive to emigrate will diminish."
"As everyone has to have a National Insurance Number to work in the UK and the government issue the numbers and record the payment of contributions, they should know exactly how many people are working in the UK from which foreign country.
It would be interesting to learn exactly how many people born within the UK are resident in each foreign country.
It is ironic that the west's attacks on Eastern Europe for not allowing people to freely leave has been replaced by a pathetic whingeing now that they are free to do so.
What hypocrites we are!"
By the way... there is soon the anniversary of Polish Constitution of May 3, 1791. It was created by the rich nation established not only by Poles and Lithuanians but also by the immigrants: German, Jewish, Dutch and British immigrants that in their countries (if they had them) could only dream about parliamentarianism, religious tolerance and public opinion. Look when immigration to Poland stopped... the end of consumption and foreign governments... Think about poor proud Britain today.
"NYC945:

..and then the Romanians and Bulgarians gain freedom of movement around 2014, and this whole row will kick off yet again..."
Forget about the Poles, what about all those blasted Saxons taking jobs away from hardworking Angles?! And do not get me started on the Normans with their Norman number tags and weird saucey foods!
"These figures are totally worthless, the govenment by its own admission has No Idea who is in this country.
Youre not going to save 'Bigot' Brown with this nonsense!"
"Guzzidave - you are quite right about the Spanish rules and that many of the retirees don't bother to learn the language. Consequently the minute they need any medical treatment they book a cheap flight home and get treatment in the UK. As a result many people living outside the UK (especially the elderly) still need to be factored into the infrastructure requirements as well as UK residents so this 'equal numbers in and out' doesn't wash.
My favourite moment when living in Spain waiting for a friend to arrive at the airport was listen to a British guy in his 70's who complained that 'England has gone to the dogs blah blah...'. In an attempt to change the conversation, I asked if he was waiting for a relative to arrive. He was waiting for his wife as she had been 'home' (ie the UK) for her final appointment with her consultant after a hip replacement operation earlier in the year. I asked if she hadn't considered having it in Spain. 'Oh no, the doctors speak Spainish here you know'. I laughed for a week."
"""Please can somene also define the difference between an 'expat' and a 'migrant'? Are British people 'expats' living in Spain or are they 'migrants'? What do Spanish people call them?""
I'd rather not quote what the Spaniards call them. These 'expats', in general, can't speak Spanish, don't pay local income taxes, don't assimilate and generally live in their ghettos. There are an estimated 1.2 million UK born people living in Spain. Spain is an EU country and so they have every right to live there, just as other EU citizens have the right to live in the UK.
It just amazes me when I hear all this talk of 'immigrants' to the UK, whereas when UK born people migrate to somewhere else, they're referred to politely as 'expats'."
"Isn't this escaping the point?
Eastern Europeans come here because there are jobs to be had and they are generally well regarded.
That's why employers prefer them, not because they're cheap but because they turn up on time, they turn up and do an honest day's work.
The reason became clear to me some ten years ago when I taught a class of european refugees. Having fled a war zone, been plonked in a strange country where many did not speak the language, if anyone hd a right to climb up the walls they did. Yet their behaviour was exemplary. And they worked harder than their native counterparts.
Not just from eastern Europe but from very other part.
It was the way they were brought up. Whilst ours are very poorly brought up and given every excuse for under-achieving.
The lib/left have ruined generations with their new child-raising methods, giving them rights they have not earned and bringing them up on the basis that they have a right to a job and they don't have to work hard.
Unless we stop this Supernanny type molly-coddling and return to methods that work, or are allowed to by removing restrictive laws, generations will continue to find they cannot compete with people abroad.
There will even come a time when Britons will no longer be able to work abroad, as Brown boasted recently. Nobody will want them."
"_AT_Chriswr
Obviously the ID on its own is not the SOLE tool that can be used. I really don't know why people are scared of them, given they willing to spill their life on social networking sites, store loyalty card etc etc etc. As per usual Brits are scared of change."
"""There will even come a time when Britons will no longer be able to work abroad, as Brown boasted recently. Nobody will want them.""
Of course not. Nobody will want them because they won't be able to speak the local language."
"Optimist99 and OfPrague, good to see there's some sanity out there after yesterday's media circus! Gillian Duffy's comments said a lot more about the petty, narrow-minded, spiteful DailyMaily attitudes of a fair swathe of the British population than Gordon Brown.
Hammy 966, you say that you can't compare immigrants from the new EU countries and Spain, but why is it okay for Brits to move to Spain in large numbers, live in their little British enclaves, refuse to integrate, speak the language or make any attempt to contribute to Spanish life and culture? Why is okay for Brits living in Spain to do nothing for their adopted country but Poles, Czechs, Lithuanian, etc to get abuse from the gutter press every day just because they want to earn a living (unlike many Brits, who sit on their lardy backsides all day). Why are Brits living in Spain 'expats' but workers from the former Eastern Bloc just 'immigrants', with all the negative connotations this word is acquiring? Why is it okay for Brits in Spain to demand water for golf courses from local politicians (not exactly a priority in one of Europe's driest countries) and whinge about 'illegals' on the comments page of the Daily Fail while the same expats kick up a fuss because their ILLEGAL homes are knocked down by the authorities? Why is there one rule for ignorant, judgmental, sanctimonious, xenophobic and arrogant Brits, and another for young people with drive, ambition, initiative and education, from the former Eastern Bloc?"
"Hammy. There are other countries in the EU that have far more immigrants than we do, and there are other countries which have to support more immigration despite being far poorer - Italy for example, has very poor areas with low employment etc. but is inundated with people coming in from Africa.
sshield - noone will want them because they'll all have nowt but a Citizenship GCSE and an NVQ in Basic Waste Management.
Vino - hear, hear.
I think the fact that today's Sun had to accompany the ""bigotgate"" coverage with a definition of ""bigot"" is telling.
QBalloo - please don't play the ""we're all immigrants"" card. It never wins against these people. Plus the Saxons were mercenaries hired by the Romans until the Romans ran out of bling and hoes to pay them with - they had no right to be here at the time, and to use them to back up the ""it's a melting pot"" argument is like slapping a Chinese person on the back and trying to strike up conversation about how rudding charming those Mongol hordes were."
"Curious to follow the question of the payoff of belonging to the EU and belonging to other exchange agreements.
How many Brits are working abroad in each of these other countries?
How many people listed in these numbers were born abroad of British parents working abroad?
Is it possible to know the qualification of Brit working abroad? Is there a general flow of everyone moving ""up"" to an economy where we earn more for our relative qualifications?
Our our markets simply broadening for some groups? Are there ""shortage"" elsewhere in the world for skilled workers put out of work here? Do we have numbers for any of these or are we dependent on guess-work?"
"Dfic1999
You and the other complainers can't see the forest for the trees.
True, Romanians and Bulgarians may move to anywhere in the EU in 2014. However, young Romanians and Bulgarians have already emigrated en masse to southern Europe, and Romania (birth rate 1.40) and Bulgaria (birth rate 1.32)are shrinking faster than almost any other country on the planet.
One of the reasons why so many Poles came in 2004 was because of a mini baby boom in the early 1980s (many of whom are now having kids, another short-lived phenomenon that people are whining about).
This whole controversy will completely disappear in a year or two, again, just as the UK baby boomers are retiring.
source: UN Population Division at http://esa.un.org/unpp/index.asp"
NYC945 - you might be right re. birth rates..but it's not going stop people complaining about the next bunch of migrants just as they've done about the Poles (and the Asians, and the West Indians, and the Irish and the Jews...) in the past. It's a stuck record.
"_AT_Guizzdave
>>Of course, if you want to use the health service or to take advantage of any other benefits on offer (and they are different to the benefits in the UK) you do have to be able to speak, read and write the Spanish language and, very importantly, fill out your annual tax return (the declaración). And the vast, vast majority of British ex-pats in Spain simply can't be bothered. They live in British communities where they don't need to learn another language and are ritually and routinely ripped-off for their laziness.<<
On so its like not British NHS document I had the other day whereby at the end it states translation of this document is availible in a spanish, french, turkish, polish, urdu, hindi, bengali, and chinese mandarin then?
Poland, unlike all other eastern bloc countries, had strong population growth in the early 1980's the days when staunch catholism and ludicrously cheap soviet oil subsides provided everyone with a job for life and apartment but virtually no entertainment or consumer goods...Poland, since 1989, cannot provide sufficient employment for this generation and you are importing that surplus..."
I think you will find Austria and Germany will de-fault on the so called 2011 "opening up" of their labour markets..The Austrian press in strongly against it.
"dfic1999
Don't forget the Romans and the Saxons and the Vikings and the Normans......"
"It really is sickening...
I 've been living, working and PAYING taxes in UK for 3 years now. I'm skilled, educated, hardworking and unlike some of my british workmates don't take sick leave every month.And although I'm very well aware of the fact that there are eastern europeans who abuse the system the majority of us work hard and obey the rules..
I wouldn't even try to convince anyone that we are any good I'm just really fed up with the insults throwing at us at every occasion just because we are white and it doesn't make you racist.. just maybe a bigot but then even prime minister will have to appoligise for telling the truth.."
When the new succession countries joined the EU, Germany, France and Austria did not give them automatic rights to work in their countries. What did the 'economic growth' obsessed BROWN government do, just opened the doors with no restrictions. Of course this would undercut the salaries of the previously unskilled traditional labour supporters, ie the working class. The results of which we are seeing now in this election. Unfortunately, this has now lead to a rise in right wing parties and was totally predictable. What did the Labour government say to to the concerns of the working class? There would be no more than 200,000 immigrants per year from East Europe! Anybody with more than two-brain cells to rub together could see this was not going to be the case. It just demonstrates that a government should be more concerned over it population's 'quality of life' than just plain economic growth.
"It's not immigration that's the real issue. It's the fact that we in this country (along with the States) mollycoddle our kids.
Employers will always need people they can rely on, rather than people brought up to believe the world owes them a cushy living.
Unless we address this problem, Gordon Brown's rather optimistic figures as espouced to the lady he called a bigot, will not last. Nobody will want British workers."
"If they are from Poland, or from other areas within the EU, then why is it such an issue? I was taught that the EU was created to compete with the US. Common passport, free trade, and open borders amongst member states... I would mention common currency, but the UK opted out on that one.
I'm originally from Michigan, and I have lived in Texas, Georgia, and currently reside in Florida. It would be strange for me to move from one state to another, and experience animosity towards me because I was from Michigan. There are cultural differences in the US, but not to the extent that there is in Europe. Maybe England is not ready for a European Union.
What you should be worried about, is the influx of Islamic Idealist that are prevalent in your country. They are the ones that want to change your society, and laws. Not the Eastern Europeans!
-Florida"
"maraq
?Poland, unlike all other eastern bloc countries, had strong population growth in the early 1980's the days when staunch catholism and ludicrously cheap soviet oil subsides provided everyone with a job for life and apartment but virtually no entertainment or consumer goods...Poland, since 1989, cannot provide sufficient employment for this generation and you are importing that surplus...?
I suppose that you are not just an ignorant... In eighties in Poland it was impossible to buy bread without a coupon and cueing for hours during the night. There was NOTHING in the shops and only black market. There was no sophisticated health service without a bribe. There was terrible communist newspeak in the media boycotted by almost whole of the society... But there were also no apartments for people... you could buy an apartment after 20 years of waiting or just go abroad to earn money if you got allowed. There were tanks and military transporters in the streets. There was a curfew. You could be imprisoned or shot if you not respect it. Thank to what Polish people were doing then, thanks to their opposition, YOU are not dead now or at least you do not need to hide from soviet nuclear missiles. I give you a guarantee that Polis did not loved Hitler and Stalin even if some idiots would like to tell such things. Poles did not have a time to enjoy chip Russian oil paying for the soviet presence there in the same time. Are just another British ignorant racist talking about Polish catholicism, anti-Semitism and homophobia.. just impossible that it is an outcome of education in British school; my children attend it as I pay my taxes here. I know the level of education in UK is poor but not so much. I really know many intelligent British people not saying such rubbish..."
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
As you pointed out, plenty of Brit Crims abroad. Drugs in Southern Spain etc. Dealers in Ibizia.
Afghanistan?
"Brilliant, Ed. I agree with nearly everything you have said, but...
You are supposed to be the most left wing of all the candidates, so does the error you admitted today stand alone, or just maybe, were the neoliberal economic thinking that justified them wrong too?"
"Very depressing to see a member of the Labour party go in for some cheap immigrant bashing.
Too lazy to actually develop a counter-argument you've decided to try to pander to all of the prejudices and bigots. I guess you must be really desperate for the support of the racist wing of the Labour party in the leadership election."
I for one will never vote for you. You may think there are votes in racism, and you may be right, but you should focus on the people you have alienated by your slide to the right, not the few bigots who will be impressed by this bullshit.
In view of this admission I expect the Labour Party to elect Mrs. Duffy as their next leader. At least she invoked the question when we required an answer, not when she required votes!
How about a language test? Free movement within the EU, but to settle one must pass a proficiency test in the language of the local area. Oh, I know the expat UKs in Spain would not be happy with it, but why not try it?
So how does Labour plan to solve the problem of an ageing population?
"So our European partners should humbly learn from Labour's exemplary stewardship of our economy?
Hmmm ........"
"Ed Balls

Nope.
""We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain""
Roost - Home - Coming - To - Chickens?
Thanks for the article though. It has revealed you as being just a little bit further to the right than Genghis Khan.
I am so glad you people were removed from office. You appeared to have learned absolutely nothing during your month out of government.

What you really mean is this: give me another chance to show you all that I wont listen to anyone.

Wasn't it Gordon Brown who said something like...
""British jobs for British workers""
Barely one month out of government and already you have forgotten all of the lies that were posted by labour.
Tell you what... why don't you just go away. You are no longer wanted nor are you trusted. You have sown lies and dishonesty and it is no surprise to find that your mendacity is reaping the rewards.
*_AT_%$ &^)! (expletive deleted)"
"Immigration, holocaust denial, Turkey and the BNP in one article.
Just missing out on paedophiles to seal the deal there Ed.. If only you would run for leadership...
Oh hold on...
Labour is out for the count for the next 8 years. Let's hope you (and the Sillybands et al) have retired/passed on/emigrated by then.
Oh hold on..
Then you will be an immigrant elsewhere. I rather wonder, Kennedy Scholar and all, whether you would pass a points system since you're not actually qualified to do anything useful.."
"It isn't 'Eastern Europeans' that most of the Uk population has a problem with, Ed.
Poles have become a symbol of honest work and fair pay. They speak better English than the natives, too.
One cannot say the same about other arrivals, who appear to have no interest or empathy with the host culture."
"Ah I see. So, your strategy for winning the leadership is to out-Tory the Tories on immigration.
Of course this article could have been titled, ""We were wrong on immigration"". But, why go for that, when you can single out a particular group."
"What you did was fail to tackle the fact that immigration in this country has never been debated honestly or with the needs of the country at hand. It has always been a football between right and left. You decided to switch hit to the right because you thought that it would be good for the Daily Mail vote plain and simple. You miscalculated the effect that opening up the EU would have and you didn't respond to it.
Immigration was a racial issue. That's becuase in the past 100 years it has always been framed in that way. Immigration was keeping undesirable brown people out of the country. That is how it was framed. The debate became intertwined with the idea a lost colonial past and a last gasp effort to keep a sense of ""Britishness"". That was how the policy was built.
The last Tory govt. decided that it would be a great election pledge to keep the immigration policy closely linked to the race issue too. Hence Norman Tebbit and his cricket test. The gave an amnesty to those already here and then sealed up all the laws as much as possible. They wanted to make sure that the sub-continent, the dark people of the earth would stay out, and routes for legal immigration shrunk. Unsuprisingly that lead to a rise in other methods being used by migrants.
You could have stopped this. You could have turned it around. You didn't. You accepted it. You played up to it. You and Mr Blunket decided that places like Sangatt should exist. You decided on detention centres for Asylum Seekers.
Why? Because you were terrified of that Daily Mail vote, You sacrificed any pretense of fairness, any attempt to diffuse the deep underlying racial prejudices of the immigration system and hoped it would no one would notice because you were so busy showing everybody how tough your jack boots could be.
You could have sat down with the Little Old Ladies of Oldham and explained to them that if they wanted to be treated by the NHS - South Asian doctors were going to be the way to go, because we had a shortage. You didn't. You let the right ride you on the agenda.
Worse of all, you decided that the Middle Class was your stomping ground. You didn't build the council houses people needed. The market would provide, you prayed. It didn't.
You didn't pull as many people out of poverty you could have done, and you let the resentment simmer and bubble. All the while being stoked by the right, and the press that back them. To cap it all you ignored them.
So when the two combined, when the demagogues came, and the ""I'm not racist but..."" started appearing, fueled by the failure of your government to address the real problems of the poor. When you were faced with debates on immigration where to the old underlying racist DNA asserted itself, you panicked, you didn't know what to do.
Too late you realised that maybe we should have a popper immigration system based on needs, skills and a clear route to citizenship. Too late, you began to put systems in place that should have been there in the first place.
But you couldn't kick the habbit. You couldn't stop yourself lunging once more for the easy floating voter hit available from the right wing press. You decided to ""get even tougher"" with immigrant.
You boasted like cartoon villains about how you were deporting Asylum seekers from the wars YOU started. You fought against reason and common sense to deprive heroic Gurkhas, who have sweated generations of blood for this country, of their right to live in here.
All this came from your original sin. The sin that you, Blair, Brown, Milliband Squared and the other ""new"" Labour people consummated.
In May 1997 your compass for a Social Democratic road map broke, and it took thirteen years for the you to sink."
I supported the Trade Union backed No2EU-Yes to Democracy, which rejected the neo-liberal, free market model of an intergrated European market. Big business and the rich quite rightly support a European free trade, pro-privatisation, anti-union free market. But lets not call this democracy and lets not pretend that European intergration is in the interest of working people.
"I'm afraid you'll find no friends here Ed.
The right-wing trolls will always hate you.
We lefties will always see you as a traitor and a bully."
I wish Ed would quit blaming economic migration for the erosion of support in his constituency.
Robi - hate the sin, not the sinner....... ever heard of the saying, "best of a bad bunch"?
"You can't fool us. The choice of the title of your piece alone was clearly a cynical attempt to try and appeal to the more vulnerable Gillian Duffy's of this world. Yet I grant people like her with enough insight to see people like you for the scum you are.
He really thought that anyone reading the Guardian would appreciate his ploy?
He should have tried the Daily Mail."
Amberstar - if the Tories spent approx £120,000 to get you out of a job, what would you blame? When all's said and done, Ed Balls is a reasonable man!!
You were wrong a lot of the time and arrogantly refuse to change tack. Now accept your well deserved fate and disappear.
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Balls!
"Despicable.
You should be ashamed."
"In government for 13 years but only now admit to the errors that people have been shouting from the f*cking rooftops for the duration. Sickening. Out of office but still Labour takes us for fools.
Iraq, then immigration, when's the admission of economic incompetence coming?"
"Seriously Mr Balls, do you honestly think anyone believes a damn word any Labour politician (other than perhaps Frank Field or Kate Hoey) says about most issues but especially immigration?
Really? The above is nothing more than self serving hypocritical balderdash of the highest or should that be lowest order."
Yes... your populist, cynical, anti-immigrant and frankly self-contradictory rant left us in no doubt as to your motivations.
"Although during the New Labour years you of course never actually tried to stand up to the anti EU hysteria whipped up by the right wing media.

And free movement of capital? How many companies are just relocating lock stock and barrel to eastern Europe?
With friends like you Europe doesn't need enemies. Tired cliches combined with all the original thought of an Alabama creationist."
"_AT_Mr Balls

Though it's just fine for capital to move freely, effectively moving labour from one place to another, so that we can have cheap foreign imports, often produced by workers on near slave wages. Essentially, we want the benefits of globalisation without the flipside - we can dish out the shit, but not take it.

So it's ok for us to take other peoples jobs, the good ones at that, but it's not ok for other people to take our jobs, even the shit ones? So we want one rule for us and another for everyone else. Bollocks.

So maybe, as their MP, you could campaign for stronger worker protection and a decent living minimum wage, and better housing provision."
"Ed your goverment nearly turned this country ito a stasi east german state with all your repressive laws
Dont try and wipe your hands of the mess you made of our civil liberties and human rights in this country
CCTV cameras/ goverment databases/council officals going through our bins/police behaviour at the G20 demo/illegal wars around the war which we took part in acting like some colonist power/ digital bill that crimised 14 million people who download music
Get lost ED we now have a coalition who with the great repeal act will try to undo and restore our human rights
Emma"
"It's strange you said none of these things when you were Brown's right-hand man.
In fact your position in this article seems to be the exact opposite of Gordon Brown's... despite him being your politcal ally.
In fact I would suggest that you are attempting to distance yourself from the political dead weight that is Brown.
No one will take you for anything more than a turncoat (at best)."
"ariksilverman (6 Jun 2010, 12:28AM);

There are many, many more English-speaking non-Brits than there are Brits who speak other European languages. Such a test would therefore make it much easier for other Europeans to settle in the UK than for UK citizens to settle in the Eurozone.
This doesn't bother me personally, but it's hardly a solution to what the article claims to be a problem."
"_AT_Mr Balls

Though it's just fine for capital to move freely, effectively moving labour from one place to another, so that we can have cheap foreign imports, often produced by workers on near slave wages. Essentially, we want the benefits of globalisation without the flipside - we can dish out the shit, but not take it.

So it's ok for us to take other peoples jobs, the good ones at that, but it's not ok for other people to take our jobs, even the shit ones? So we want one rule for us and another for everyone else. Bollocks.

So maybe, as their MP, you could campaign for stronger worker protection and a decent living minimum wage, and better housing provision."
24 carat pure comedy gold.
"'Phil Woolas .. great job...'
And this man wants to be the Leader of the Labour Party?"
Bugger, sorry for the double posting - server not found bollocks.
Oh please, anyone with half a brain (i.e. everyone outside the cabinet) always knew that they were political, not economic tests.
I have lost all respect for this man. He is a bigot, pure and simple.
"So, a world that's 'open and fair', and allows 'Free movement of goods and services' as part of this. Or a world that's open to further exploitation by Business, in other words.
But if you're a Romanian, Turkish or Bulgarian worker, you can f*cking whistle.
One rule for the ruling class, and another for the working class. This is neither 'open' nor 'fair'.
Working people in this country - 'native' and 'immigrant' alike - need strong unions to protect their pay and conditions, and to fight for improvements in them, as has always been the case. They need people in government who'll support them in this endeavor.
Shame on Ed Balls for trying to play workers off against each other."
Whether the UK government demands a decent standard of English to work in the UK has nothing at all to do with any other language nor any other country.
"It is perfectly possible to argue that Turkey has no place in Europe. As it is possible to argue that the free movement of labour will help Europe. But it is utter rubbish to argue you are a pro-European while arguing to limit the freedoms that are a key part of the vision.
When will Ed Balls and the rest of this pathetic crop of Labour leaders understand that tactics, positioning and politicking are no substitute for principles, strategy and vision???"
I don't agree with Balls.
"_AT_thfc123

Aren't us Brits renowned for our ""DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH"" approach when we're abroad - we haven't got a f***ing leg to stand on when it comes to ""you live here, you must speak the language""."
"Thank god these nutcases didn't get back in.
Turkey in the EU - aren't there enough race and culture issues already without going looking for more. And lets get the EU drawn into all the conflicts in the middle east as well.
And why pick on the Poles, they come here, fit in, speak English and work hard. Britain is a better place for them. You don't hear many stories about crime ridden Polish ghettos, or vast numbers of unemployed Poles or Polish radicalisation. Picking on white European immigrants is just a sneaky way for a left wing politician to disrespect immigrants without being called racist. And it has the advantage that the EU immigrants don't need to become UK citizens so they don't vote."
What a shame that not quite enough voters turned out in Morley & Outwood to turf this odious person out of office.
"""We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain""...
Yes and you were wrong about absolutely EVERYTHING else."
"nottydave
You just don't get it. No matter how ignorant English people abroad are it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the UK government insisting on a decent level of English to work in the UK. Whether English people abroad speak the native language or not is for the government of that country that those people happen to be in.
The two have NOTHING to do with one another."
Having worked with a number of poles & latvians on building sites ,one mistake seems to be made by many of the PC crwod on here & MPs.Eastern Europeans ,what does that mean?,it does not exist as a nation.The Poles dislike the Latvians,The Poles are by & large good workers & good to work with, but they can & do put the BNP to shame for racism towards black & asians & the Irish ,who have been priced out in a lot of areas hate them all.I know this does not dovetail with with the norm when it comes to racism but it is very lazy to pidgen hole this topic any other way.
"Thank goodness it was Eastern Europeans and not Turks.
They are beginning to scare me."
"If there are restrictions on migrants from Romania why is it listed on this housing application form I'm looking at along with Czech Reb, Estonia and twenty other countries.
Turkey isn't listed. I wonder why?
Who benefits from the European project? It's not helping to lift people out of poverty where I live. Indeed its exacerbating the poverty by forcing more people to compete for jobs and housing. And why should housing go to someone from Hungary whose family own acres of land, and here would be classed middle class?"
Turkish accession to the EU has nothing to do with culture or race, tomedinburgh. Whether you like the possibility or not, the idea is widely supported across Europe (except by Greece). Sadly, Britain is already involved in the middle east, as 27% of Israeli citizens either have or could claim a British Passport and the Balfour Declaration of 1917 formalised the British policy of creating a Jewish state. Anyway, recognising that Europe Union is primarily and economic impetus and that Turkey has been as associate member of the EU and its predecessors since 1963, and that it would provide the UK economy with an additional 74m customers, I think Ed Balls' position on the issue is not pivotal to his candidature for Labour Leadership (all leaders since Harold Wilson have favoured Turkish accession to EC, as have many Conservatives and ALL liberal party leaders.
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"Yet more posts about being on the ""right"" wrt political views.
Many people I speak with to claim to clearly understand what is meant by ""right"" and ""left"", though I rarely hear the same explanation as to exactly what each means, making the terms essentially useless in discourse.
If you think Balls is a racist, then say it. Don't tar those who believe in limited state involvement in individuals' lives and relatively free markets with being prejudiced nutters.
For the record, I don't believe Balls is prejudiced against foreigners or skin colour. I just think he's a git."
Ed talking Balls again. What a disgraceful and transparent gesture. Retire from politics forever you charlatan.
"Shameless populism!
To restrict immigration will not secure work for unemployed Brits. It's so stupid what you write, that I can't understand why anyone would let you be a minister, let alone thier leader. If you became the PM of UK, I'd give up on your country.
Is this the new, New Labour? God help us all.
Why don't you stay home with the kids? I am sure you'd make a fine unskilled labour at home and, if unpaid, even better."
"_AT_ BunnyFlumplekins
So you're basically saying 'don't diss the right'.
It's a nice neoliberal fasion that the right has managed to concot a media image of itself of everything good from sugar and spice to absolute freedom.
The truth, as we know, is a little farther away, however.
Libertarianism is just the fetish of a few right-wing crackpots... the true face of the right is rperesented by Conservative Philosophers like Edmund Burke and Conservative actions like guantanamo bay."
"Now Balls,
What was the average rate of inflation since May 1997?
Just for your edification inflation is the excess money in an economy over and above that required for goods and services.
You and your chums debased the currency at an alarming rate creating a slushy economy which showed nominal growth but deflated by the rate of monetary inflation showed a contraction in real growth for most of the 13 years you were in office, unlike the 1990s under Clarke.
However you all conspired to flood the UK with cheap labour to avoid the 1978/9 Winter of Discontent even allowing any immigrant, criminal or not, into this Country. The move of John Gieves from the Treasury to the Home Office coincided with opening of the flood of immigrants. The costs to the taxpayer and to Citizens of unrestricted immigration will be with us for years: crowded schools, hospitals, lack of housing, increased TB & HIV rates, masses of money spent on translators by Local Authorities, Courts etc....
I suggest that you personally transfer to the Exchquer from your own funds the cost of the mess you left and join the queue for Public Housing.
If you win then we will have a Tory Government for decades."
"Turkey is not, and has never been Europe and Turkish people are not europeans. These are plain facts.
Turkey's cultural differences with Europe are so wide that EU accession could never work, and would be a disaster for both Europe and Turkey."
"Wow - first Iraq was wrong (finally) and now this!
What a principled politician the people of Morley have had this last decade - one who only ""speaks his mind"" when there's no more advantage in kow-towing to the status quo.
Balls is not a politician. Politicians have balls."
"_AT_robi
By all means argue against those with political views you disagree with. My point is that the term ""right-wing"" is bandied about without a consistent understanding of what it actually means, just as understanding of 'class' is becoming increasingly variable as society evolves.
By all means argue against free markets, pay inequality, illegal detention, etc - I'm just suggesting that the use of certain terms is unhelpful in these discussions.
Though I hold my hands up and admit the use of the term ""git"" is not exactly my most lucid contribution."
Australian style migration restrictions should be applied to all people wishing to settle here. And then the problem would be solved.
"False. It is supported overwhelmingly by elite politicians and journalists, but overwhelmingly opposed by the actual people of Europe, particularly in France, Germany and Austria. It is significant that both Germany and Austria have large Turkish immigrant populations. In other words, they've already seen the Turks up close.

It wouldn't provide any more customers. The Turkish economy is already treated as if Turkey was in the EU. There are no trade barriers so Turkish accession to the EU wouldn't affect economic relations in any way."
"Wow, what a truly evil and calculating thing to say!
Balls is fully aware that in many parts of the country people are extremely concerned about non-European immigration, because it is permanent and it changes the communities permanently. Yet he diverts the argument to Eastern Europeans, who don`t ask for UK passports and usually don`t bring their families.
Britain`s problem is mass permanent immigration - it is not Polish gastarbeiters.
Sneaky and despicable. I`d like to apologise to Eastern Europeans for this. Horrible."
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"If the EU worked Britain's would be working there, but in fact the numbers doing so are very low, most emergration from the UK is still to English speaking countries (NZ, USA, Canada and Australia) and Spain which of course is retired people not working ones.
Without better teaching of languages which in the UK is terrible at, the freedom of working across Europe is meaningless, and works against Britain as Europeans come here in large numbers but we do not move and work there, its all one way.
The benefit of a large European market for goods, is enjoyed most by shareholders, whilst workers in the UK, have to complete for jobs with both UK people and those coming from Europe."
"Algebraist :
Immigration was a racial issue.
Racism?, maybe.
Space, certainly.
Some will argue that there is no shortage of the former, but the latter is limited."
"ColonelWingate

I could not agree more, and whilst politicians speak about immigration THIS year and new limits its the uncontrolled immigration of the last forty years that is the problem.
Once you give someone citizenship, you are by default giving all their offspring it too. Getting citizenship should take 20 years, you should be skilled, speak English and not claim benefit or commit crime. Being a first world nation, we have not reason to just give away citizenship, why would we choose to dilute our own rights? create more competition for our children for jobs?
Why have we taken so many people all from one part of the world? Who live in ghettos, living as they would where they come from, ignoring the locals, who have mostly moved away because they do not want to live in a foreign ghetto in their own country.
how does it benefit us?
Its utterly ridiculous."
Wh ocares who wins the leadership of Zanu-Labour, provided they remain out of office for at least a generation, until the evil theives of civil liberties ar all too long in the tooth to remain in Parliament. Then, hopefully, their successors will be more freedom-loving.
"Or lastly as I wrote on another thread.
There is nothing wrong with liking your country and its way of life, and not wishing to see it destroyed by immigration and 'multiculturalism'"
"you're probably right about where the support comes from gkelly. I'd be surprised if most European citizens supported it. I don't know.
Full accession would certainly improve free movement of goods and services for UK businesses into Turkey, thereby improving revenue for British businesses. I wasn't trying to justify or deny Turkey's full membership of EU, but merely counter the general belief that Ed Balls was not in tune with mainline concerns by mentioning it in his article."
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"So this is it is it, these are the thoughts and analysis that will make you leader of the opposition and then in just under five years, the Prime Minister?
I think not, I think you have just displayed you intellectual shallowness and lack of moral foundations.
I hope, indeed offer up an Atheists prayer, that you do become leader of the Labour Party, it deserves your thoughtful leadership and farsighted guidance."
"The free access to the UK jobs market for Eastern Europeans was merely a cynical Thatcherite ploy to avoid having to provide money to train UK residents for skilled and semi-skilled jobs.
Not the mention the great advantage of a willing workforce from an economically backward area which would actually consider the minimum wage as good money and be an obedient and compliant workforce.
Why then is Balls so interested in the accession of Turkey into the EU except as another great well of super cheap sweatshop fodder?
Balls gives no other reason , for there is no advantage to Britain on Turkey's EU membership except their workforce.
The Blair/Brown regime betrayed the working classes, preferring to import workers abroad rather than spend money on training and childcare.
Mr Balls was a senior member of the Greek chorus urging them on.
Show him the door."
"_AT_balls
As usual obfuscating spin and garbage.
However, if you were wrong, you are responsible............if you are responsible then you should be accountable.......if you are accountable your incompetence disqualifies you from any further position in public life.
By accident or design - and I think it was by design - your policies have had a massively adverse effect on British society - time for you to toddle off into obscurity."
you've just lost my vote
This article gives demagoguery a bad name.
you've just lost my vote
"_AT_bradgate

You clearly have no idea what a fact is."
Who elected you to that job?
So populist it would make Hugo Chavez and Vice Cable blush.
"..........
His geography is good."
Well, blimey, Griffin is writing under a pseudonym.
"tinlaurelledandhardy

Exactly."
"Solidarity with my brother and sister workers from Europe!
Labour doesn't need Balls, it needs Brains."
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"_AT_annedemontmorency

Geographically, Europe has never had any agreed boundaries. If you want to say Europe is by definition not Muslim, go ahead - that's one opinion, but let's not pretend it is some kind of fact."
Orkney ,having been invited to a cracking piss up at the Poles house off our site i can only agree ,ref Polish girls
"But you forgot to get them to clean up their act enough to get their accounts signed off didnt you ed. oops.
'at the heart of europe'
yeah. right."
"_AT_annedemontmorency
you are so funny. europe is a socio-political construct. it doesnt exist. its whatever you want it to be.
turkey has far more in common with austria-hungary and germany than we do with greece (apart from phil the greek of course).
sorry, its not simple. but i tried to make it simple for you."
"_AT_Danut

In my sad experience of once working for a 'Labour' local authority that is the majority of them.
But they wouldn't come out and admit ot of course."
"Just an observation: it appears, at least on the surface, that the countries that have the highest debt to gdp ratios are the ones in the most economic trouble and the ones with the least are doing the best. At least, that's the way it looks at a glance.
I wonder if those countries in financial difficulty, had they spent less money, be less in debt? If overspending got one into trouble, how can doing the same produce the opposite result? The government is not some sacred cow. It's not blasphemy or mean spirited to curb the appetite of the government.
Look at it this way. You are taxed for, among other things, what you produce, what you expend, and anything else they can think of. Every time they collect a tax from you, that is a direct deduction of your options in life. Have you ever heard a bureaucrat say something along the lines of, ""We can't impose a tax increase, how are the Stevensons going to pay for Mary Lou's college expenses?"" Have you ever heard a politician address the reality of taxation, ""you earned it, now we're going to take whatever we want and you'd be best advised to give it up and keep your mouth shut about it.""
There is no such thing as public spending. All spending is private spending. Either the individual who earned the money, spends it. Or, the individual who earned the money has it strongarmed off of him by the government, and then the government spends the the individual's money for him. In either case, the taxable surplus was created by the skill, talent, and dedication of the earner. The government has no inherent right to anything."
Well, the man while in power talked his talk for the power' sake and now he does that for the sake of getting it back. There is very specific word for that but I don't want to get moderated :)
"Labour obviously needs some time out of power if Ed Balls, shadow children and education secretary, is writing this kind of guff as he competes for the party leadership.
Blair's labour government worked real hard to make London into a plush home for rich foreigners who did more damage to Britain and its economy than a few hard working Eastern Europeans."
"As an ex-Labour Party member, I didn't believe what Nu Labour said when in power and I don't believe any of them now. They're bad history as far as I'm concerned.
Viva el coalition!"
"If ever there was a case of shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted -- or rather in this case the stable had got a tad overcrowded.
All the open door policy did was crowd out the labor market and drive wage rates downwards. But that's basic economics, anyone could have told you that increasing the supply with demand flat will drive down the price. Good for short term profit, especially as the imported labor comes with no cost to the people using those skills and they can conveniently pass the cost of the people they're displacing onto the taxpayer."
"Britain is a very exposed country with great deal of protection for people in duly harsh circumstances. These mechanisms were never designed for free inflow of well, let's not be two faced, poor people from countries where their lives are of no or little consequence.
The illusion is that the trouble is the lack of sufficient funding.
This illusion is really hard to break through but it is nevertheless and illusion. And it may not be a healthy one to follow on with anything like policy making."
"You and Labour will not be part of the decision making process, so why should we care what you think?

Who too?

What exactly does this mean? You don't say/

So what you are saying is that your actions have disadvantaged one of the poorest and economically weakest sections of society.
So what you are not saying is that your refusal to set interim limits, (as many other European Counties did,) made the situation worse.
All you are doing is reinforcing the point that you are a stupid inept politician and not fit to represent anyone, much less lead a major british political party.
Thanks for clearing that up."
"Hmm interesting its east european migrants which are viewed as the problem.
So I guess the obvious signs of islamification should be ignored then?"
"if they come here to WORK IE a doctor,dentist.brickie then i dont see the problem BUT there should be an agreement box on there application for a visa/uk passport that says they must abide by our customs and traditions
all these imigrants who dont work sponge off the state then throw a hissy fit for changes in uk law to benefit there own Beliefs and customs should be shown the door lie-bour failed to stem the problem lets hop the new boys can"
"Ed Balls; What a racist title, and no information in your poorly written article to back up it's title. How did you get to where you are? Not by intelligence that's for sure. If you were to do your statistics, you would find an overwhelming number of ""British"" people are taxing the system here in this country. Not any ""Eastern Europeans"" which are not only highly skilled but hard working .
GJP46"
"eastlands
so true
One, it is central europe and there is more diversity here than in western Europe.
Populist stuff where a leading politician brackets the whole region as homogenous"
"Presumably most of those calling Ed Balls a racist and a bigot also believe Labour leadership candidates should listen to the members/voters more? I assume by ""listening"" they mean only to opinions they themselves agree with and returning to real socialism, whatever that is.
There's a lot of concern about immigration out there - discussing extending the restriction on Romain and Bulgaria is hardly the same as advocating repatriation for non-whites."
"Oh yeah, and I should also say that the title of your article is not only a lie but the Guardian, is irresponsible for allowing this article to be uploaded as it only helps to stir the racist element in this society...........or maybe that's what you really wanted.
GJP46"
Mr Balls, you are wrong about restricting movement of workers in the EU. Low wages are a fall out from globalisation and capital's desire to seek the cheapest worker. The UK has plenty of unscrupulous managers who do not give a toss about 'British workers': the answer? Up the minimum wage until it no longer becomes possible to trade workers. In any event, who will do the jobs the EU migrants did/still do? Remembering Evan Davies' programme for the BBC, 'The day the immigrants left' threw up a vivid picture of a workshy British workforce unwilling to do the jobs the immigrants were doing. Reform labour and employment laws, raise the minimum wage and allow free movement of labour. Don't play the BNP's game for them. And while you're at it, get building some houses and stop people profiting from buy to let. Labour should have tackled all these things years ago but didn't have the intellect or courage to tackle them.
You didn't have to restrict immigration from the EU - all you had to do was set the minimum wage for all workers at a living level, and legislate improvements in the terms of employment for all workers (other EU countries seem to manage it), and then employers wouldn't have been falling over themselves to employ Lithuanians living in garden sheds and working on temporary contracts which get renewed again and again, year after year.
"""A load of balls"" still what would one expect.
Nudelabour brought in the minimum wage but then failed to enforce it. and in any case set it very low. Nudelabour failed to push people back into work and with the min wage so low - why would they go?
One example: drive out of Leominister _AT_ 0600hrs any morning and watch the long lines of east euros trudging to their fruit and veggie picking jobs so Joe average can have cheap fruit and veggies (30% of which he wastes - well they are cheap so why worry?).
There is a systemic failure here and Balls is one of the guys responsible. Unfit to clean the toilets in my view - let alone a political party - throw him out of labour - let him form his own party - he is not and never has been a socliaist."
"'We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain'
But Ed, you were there when it was all discussed, agreed and implemented. And if you were there again in future, it would carry on again. We all know that it is what the Left want, why, the Labour peer Lord Giddens indicated that it must 'go on' (see 'Over to You, Gordon', published only 3 years ago). In fact the 'melting pot' philosophy has been and remains one of the Left's central tenets: that true internationalism can only be achieved by breaking down the 'barriers' of race and culture upon which nation states exist.
So please no more hand-wringing over what what a full-blown design feature of Labour's 13 years in office. Why do you not honestly state your intention, which has always been to remove the racial basis of the UK, and Englishness in particular. Do you not wish to move towards one of the Left's implicit ideals (that still can be heard in any left-leaning student debate), namely 'towards one world government?'
But let me tell you, a world without such racial and cultural differences would be a poorer place."
The Poles are actually more workshy than the British. Unemployment is far higher in Poland than Britain, and it's not like there isn't the work there. There are Ukrainians and Belarussians doing the jobs that the Poles don't want to take.
Persoanlly I'd have liked to have seen more Polish people come to the UK, and I'm sorry that some of them are going back. The UK is better off with them than without them. It is other groups we need to be careful about. The ones who burn the flag and get aggressive and hate the country.
"So its simple then, Ed. The UK will continue to (try to) keep wages and costs higher than eastern europe and at the same time remain competitive.
That way you've got a lingering recession until things get so bad that english workers are actually emigrating to work in Poland - it should take about 12 to 15 years at the most.
Then all the immigrants you're worried about will be gone and you'll have no-one to scapegoat. Then your touchy-feely enoch powell fellow travellers in Nu Labour might need to come up with some real economic policy - like creating sustainable and competitive industry. Except Labour doesn't do sustainable or competitive industry. If Labour can't moan against the bosses, the bankers, the toffs, the immigrants, the tories, the liberals, or anyone else who doesn't carry a union card, then it's got nothing to say."
There -- fixed that for you.
"I am sorry Ed but you can't have the first two (you forgot free movement of capital) without the last, to do otherwise is to carve up the market for the benefit of business and allow business to play different countries off against each other. This is precisely why the EU was set up with the four basic freedoms in the first place.
The question is whether the EU should have been expanded into the former Eastern block in the first place. My opinion has always been no, and I think I have been proved right by events. By all means the Eastern block should have been given preferential trading status with the EU along with help and assistance to allow them to get their economies into shape before joining the EU, but to let them in while they were still economically very weak and unable to hold their own was folly of the first order.
The problem with the EU is not the EU, but the short-sighted, nationalistic, doing-the-best-for-my-country (and the vested interests within it) Member States of the EU, of which the UK is probably one of the most blatant and notorious example.
The point of the EU is that the nations of Europe work together for the common benefit of all, not be in it for what you can screw out of it, but then since 'be in it for what you can screw out of it' has been the whole 'Anglo Saxon' modus operandi of the UK economy at all levels for the past thirty years it hardly surprising they don't understand anything else, consequently the role and purpose of EU is actually a complete mystery to the majority of UK politicians (and population for that matter).
The EU is a modern 'tragedy of the commons'.
The question for me is not whether or not we decide to stay in the EU but rather how long the EU is going to put up with its Chavvy neighbour."
"How long has this man been out of office??
His hypocrisy would be absolutely breathtaking if one didn't undrstand that personal ambition is his single goal - whatever the cost to everybody else!"
As Clement Attlee is reputed to have said: A bit late isn't it?
"Amazing that you can be in power for more than a decade and only realise that after you're out of power.

Wrong, Balls, they should be pushing to protect the pay, terms and conditions of all workers. Protecting the pay, terms and conditions only of British workers will make the low-pay, unprotected workers of Poland and the Baltic states more attractive for rapacious employers.
But that was all part of the plan, wasn't it?"
Perhaps the eastern Europeans can let us move to their countries... Yeah like theyd let us move in on their turf!
They let me move there.
"Snapshackle:

They'll put up with us for as long as we're paying a huge part of their bloated budget. You just know they're looking for more money from us by getting rid of our rebate as well. They won't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
Anyway, this is too little too late. It's no good saying your wrong now. I won't forget the damage the labour party has done to this country and I'll certainly never forgive it. I'm not the only one either."
"A couple of other things I forgot. This sentence:

is a gross over-estimation of how important Britain is on the world stage. Also, the idea of allowing Turkey into the EU is cretinous."
"So it's true then, Ed.
They are taking our jobs and driving down wages.
Why didn't you say this before?"
"13 years 1 month too late.
And I say that as the husband of an immigrant from outside the EU. We had to go through almost a year of marriage-threatening hell just to get her into the country, despite her having a job offer here, speaking English, and my being able to support her financially. All in the name of ensuring the 'wrong' sort didn't get in.
Meanwhile several million Europeans who didn't have jobs, didn't necessarily speak English, and didn't have any money were able to get in with barely a glance at their passport at the gate."
"TheGreatCucumber
6 Jun 2010, 8:20AM

Er, except our contribution is not that important, and if we leave so do any costs associated with us.

1. Where did I say I was a Labour supporter?
2. Labour has done no more than continue Tory policies, so it is the fault of the ideology, not the party since both administrations pursued essentially then same agenda."
No you weren't - but you were wrong not to defend immigration properly. Same old New Labour telling the people what you think they want to hear. You don't care where you get your support from do you? Now is the time to stop pandering to the right wing, zenophobic, and ignorant - it lost you the last election and it will lose you the next.
"Snapshackle:

1. That was aimed at what Ed Balls said. Sorry, should have clarified that.
2. I'm no fan of the Tories either."
PeakoilPete - they let my sister move there and she doesn't want to come back.
"zavaell:
'In any event, who will do the jobs the EU migrants did/still do?'
Me, for one. Ready, willing and able.
Nine months of applications for cleaning, catering, retail, office and care work have resulted in about 2 interviews.
Ready to drop the voluntary job and paper round at a moment's notice."
"qwertboi - The last Greek prime minister - Costas Karamanlis openly supported Turkish accession to the EU.
Greece has birthrate problems and is hardly dynamic - there is a very different picture on the other side of the Aegean. Culturally the Greeks and Turks are a lot closer than the Greeks like to pretend.
And what's this nonsense about IT being highly dependent on immigrants?
The scandal was that this myth was around even before 2000 - when South Africans were freely allowed to work in IT in the UK, while Brits could not get a work permit in SA to do anything.
The job market in IT has collapsed due to outsourcing to Asia, and the myth of ""shortages"" is put about my IT employers' asociations and lobbyists to ensure a plentiful supply of cheap IT labour. UK programmers were affected adversely by the UK IT ""open door"" to the world policy just as much as brickies were affected by EU immigration. UK IT staff are not unionised, have no lobby and still suffer due to the propagation of the ""shortage"" myth by employers. (Same in Germany)
Ageism and overmuch competition in my IT speciality - much of it due to Agency sponsored non-EU immigrants, caused me to leave the UK and work in Germany.
The author points out that that restrictions on the influx of EU unskilled labour will soon be lifted in France and Germany. That will have a huge effect on the UK in that both countries are far more attractive for Eastern European EU immigrants workers. There are Germans who are predicting major changes in Berlin (as one example) where Polish (etc.) immigration will be sorely needed due to the increasing dearth of young people. The Polish border is only 50 miles from Berlin.
Also Germany is on the verge of having labour shortages due to the aging population/declining birthrate (No. 3 in the declining population ranking) - already unemployment is at its lowest for years and there is an upcoming crisis in the medical/care sector due to staff shortages.
And what is this implied success of the UK economy in coming quickly out of recession? France and Germany were far earlier."
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
We should not be confusing the need to improve the rights of the low paid in this country with allowing others to come and live in the UK. The minimum wage and rights for agency and contract workers is the way to deal with this.
"Ed,
I have always thought you to be an odious little man - and this article just adds weight to my opinion of you.
What a cheap and nasty tactic you have adopted to score anti-immigration points by berating Polish immigrants who are generally hard-working, law-abiding and work hard to integrate.
What a low, underhand way to appear 'hard' in immigration but avoiding any criticism of any non-white group - and thus trying to avoid being called a racist.
You really are a pathetic man.
No mention at all of the problems caused by the Islamist wave of immigration in the UK - none at all. Islamic immigrants do not integrate, do not respect the culture of the UK and do not participate at a high level in the economy.
Yet not a mention from you.
Disgusting. I think the cheaper-than-cheap, turn-coat, unprincipled 'leadership' campaign you are running is showing you up in an even poorer light than before - and believe me, that would have taken some doing."
">>We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain
Bit late now Ed.
Everyone told you what would happen and as with everything else you 'ballsed up' you wouldn't listen even to your expert advisers on health.
""Nanny Knows best"" was how New Labour ruled. Nanny most certainly didn't."
"If you had admitted theses errors while in power and able to influence matters you may have won some respect but to wait till its too late and wring your hands from the sideline is pathetic.
You will never be Labor leader.
You will never be PM."
"Ed is lying of course. Basically if do something immoral for 10 years, then I think it is right. That the Labour party allowed unfettered immigration for 13 tells me the believe that is right.
How often have you had met someone who constantly does the wrong thing but assures each time that they have learned their lesson? You know they haven't because deep down they believe that the wrong thing is the right thing.
Next Labour government would equal more unlimited immigration as Labour understands this is in their long term self interest.
By the way - those of you who call immigration controls racist are beyond contempt. You are the racists and in particular you have a racist world view which sees people from poorer countries as tools to achieve your policy goals.
I have always thought it laughable that a so called 'anti capitalist' left winger is so committed to allowing people to come and work here for burger king."
"_AT_article

I can assure you there are plenty of folk born and bred in the country who can fill these post in the NHS and IT industries. The problem is that they were not allowed into these industries because they were undercut by immigrants. It is an insult to the intelligence of any normal person to think otherwise."
"Ahh the Right-wing reflex from the Labour ministers.
Yawn"
You were neoliberal stooges, the book Broonland carves you up. Now you think you are throwing a bone to the gormless proles over immigration. If you don't do better than this you'll never be back. How about giving some thought about how the markets are ruling us and how to counteract it. Of course that might deviate from neo-classical endogenous growth theory. Jesus is this all we've got. ?
I can't stand these fools who think that because an immigrant is White, he won't cause any problem.
"OMG - YES - he has got it - at last!
Take care of the people already here and STOP letting more and more and more in.
But is he just saying it to get what he wants - after all the Labour party wanted to rub the noses of the middle classes in multiculturalism - has that changed?"
Thank you for a clear and well-written article, Mr Balls. I understand your lines of argument, but can't bring myself to agree with them.As the decendent of 'economic migrants' during the attempted genocide of the Irish 'famine', I think that Britain should be Great enough to have a place for those willing to work for their living and their family's betterment.
"Balls clearly has never asked himself why communities, like the one he 'represents', are ""ill prepared to deal with globalisation"".
First off, no one ever told them about globalisation, it descended on them from on high without a by-your-leave, and they were expected to get on with it.
Second, if we have to have globalisation, we need an education system that's geared to turning out a highly skilled workforce able to compete with the Far East.
No sign of that, is there, Ed?
Instead we've had high unemployment amongst young people since before eternal boom turned to old fashioned bust.
Could that be anything to do with micro-managing education from Whitehall, Ed?
One further point, Ed.
You can't have the bits of globalisation you like - cheapo clothes from the Far East, iPads, etc - without the bits you don't like: a global labour market, widening inequality, and reduced welfare spending.
Get real, matey."
Obviously mass immigration on this scale was wrong. It was wrong because there was no effort whatsoever to expand an already overstretched infrastructure to cope with it. It's a very simple equation. Why couldn't you see that ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
"Big business wanted cheap labour, the government of the day, of which Mr Balls was a significant figure, delivered what big business wanted - as usual.
I don't believe that this particular leopard can change his shorts."
Isn't it amazing how an electoral "slap upside the head" can knock some sense into it. That's what happened isn't it, Ed? You wouldn't just be saying whatever you think is necessary to get all those C2 voters back, would you?
"p.s.
...new points system, with strong controls on unskilled migration, alongside new citizenship requirements.
Seems quite fascistic to me to differentiate in this way. What right have you got to 'brain drain' these countries so you're own country is economically advantaged? This policy is a kind of distant cousin to ethnic cleansing."
'[H]ard-headed'; 'big choices'; 'stark differences'; 'challenge'; 'doomed'; 'staggered'; 'do not believe for a moment'; 'strong controls'; 'difficult times'; 'hard-headed'; History has proved'; 'fight tooth and nail'; 'a powerful driver'; 'wake up'; 'challenge'; 'direct impact'; 'the heart of'; 'rebuild trust'; 'no doubt that'; 'true that'; 'a great job'; 'hard-headed'; 'seal the borders'; 'innovation'; 'another matter entirely'; 'the reality of'; 'it is important we are honest about what we got wrong'; 'not good enough'.
"This simply means they're white, and acceptable.

This refers to those who are not white, and aren't, but kepler doesn't have the balls to say it. It's the highest recommended comment so far, it's racist to the core, and I'm sure a number of BNP supporters are amongst those that approve. There you go, Ed, there's your vote bank."
"_AT_PaulLambert (6 Jun 2010, 1:13AM)

My sentiments exactly."
"Below is a statement from the Optimum Population Trust published in October 2009:
The figures, published by the Office for National Statistics, show the UK population growing by over four million to 65.6 million by 2018, passing 70 million two decades from now (2029) and reaching nearly 86 million by the end of the projection period – 2083 – when growth will still be running at over a quarter of a million a year. The ONS says just over two-thirds of the projected increase over the next quarter century is either directly or indirectly due to migration. Commenting on the projections, Roger Martin, chair of OPT, said: “These figures are very worrying and demonstrate that, whatever some government ministers say about not letting the UK’s population rise beyond 70 million, the reality is very different. In that sense Britain’s population increase is out of control and we are on course for a high-density, low-quality future where overcrowding and congestion are the norm and resource shortages, particularly of vital commodities like water and energy, are ever more pressing. Every addition to the population pushes this country further from sustainability and nearer to a position of extreme environmental precariousness.
It’s no use shouting “racist” whenever someone suggests that immigration should be restricted. It is very childish and extremely boring, and if you believe it then you must also think that David Attenborough and Jonathon Porritt, both patrons of the OPT, are racist too. The UK is the most densely populated country in Europe and the second most densely populated country in the world. If reliant solely on its own resources, it could sustain a population of only 20 million people. It is clearly absurd to continue to allow current levels of immigration, especially when we have structural unemployment of 4 million plus and the incomes of the poorest pushed down even further by immigrants competing for jobs."
"Well - is it not true that once you end the transitional controls then free movement is inevitable.
However there are still many things that Labour could have done in order to lessen the impact of immigration from the new EU states:
1. Coordinate with other major EU economies (France, Germany, Spain etc.) to end transitional controls at the same time so that impact would be spread over a great area.
2. Reduce or better control other routes of immigration e.g. student visas in response to the end of transitional controls on new EU controls.
3. Reduce tax on the lower wage salaries thus encourage more people off benefits to work."
"Too late, Ed. How you expect anyone to believe a word you say any more is beyond my grasp.
However, I am a huge supporter of your campaign to lead the Labour Party. Into the desert for generations.
Go, Ed, Go!!!!!"
Is he ? Surely this ministry has been abolished ?
Finally, if you'd have admitted these massive mistakes to the nation while in government you'd have had to resign. However, you're now in opposition, but you seem to think you should be able to stand as leader. Surely some contradiction here. In fact you're a FAILED POLITICIAN who's done serious damage to the country and therefore the honourable thing to do would be to LEAVE POLITICS! You're not allowed to plead forgiveness or ignorance, the country needs leaders who know what they are doing, you've proved you don't.
"Another tired article from a tired party that hasn't got the guts to admit that the reason they were ejected was the economy and the utter mess they made of it.
Well I'm anti-Euro, but I have no doubt that if we had entered, our European partners would have run our economy better than you did, increasing public expenditure by 50% to what effect? More overpaid quangocrat and housing association mates of yours? I mean how can a Housing Association chief earn nearly 400k pa? Under Brown-Balls he can.
And just why did we stay out of the Euro? Economic reasons, Ideological reasons? Or am I alone in thinking that it was just that Brown couldn't countenance giving up power so hard obtained?
Then you go on to apologise for EU immigration, whereas you know full well that Polish plumbers is a small problem relative to immigration from Pakistan, Bangladesh Nigeria etc.
.
I shall be delighted if by mistake Labour selects you to be its leader, as the reminder of Brown will be enough to ensure that your kind of self-interested house-flipping ""socialism"" is kept out of power for ever.
You are a disgrace to what was once a great party with an ideological core and a just cause."
"ArikSilvermen

To settle in a foreign country, NO to a proficiency test.
But to work there, YES.
This is in fact what happens in many countries - for decent working-class jobs.
For instance, you wouldn't get a job as a postal worker, ambulance driver, dustman - or any council state sector worker - (and loads of other jobs) without first passing a written and difficult exam in both Spanish and Catalan.
Even someone from Madrid wouldn't be able to pass the Catalan exam without months or even years of study.
That's how other countries protect their local workforce (what a fantastic Derby winner, by the way!)
But over here we make allowances."
"Correction to previous post:
""You wouldn't get a decent working-class job IN BARCELONA as..."""
"Really?
Britain's taxpayers are forking out more than £21million a year in child benefit for youngsters living in Poland, official figures reveal."
Ed Balls is simply a New Labour hypocrite. Quite why the media give this individual who lacks intelligence or indeed integrity is a mystery. I live in his constituency and would be delighted if he found the time to dealing with correspondence instead of indilging in self-promotion.
"So, Ed, whilat you are displaying your penitence, what are your thoughts on this statement by the PM?

Hint. ""So what"" is NOT the answer."
Mr Balls, as a member of the Labour Party, let me say you are very wrong about this and I hope the party rejects this counter-productive urge to blame our travails on immigration. I'll vote for whichever candidate follows the most liberal line on immigration.
"_AT_mannin 6 Jun 2010, 9:44AM

Quite so. Sadly they didn't manage to abolish Balls at the same time.
By the way, kids, do you know which two MPs came up with the house flipping scam which has so enriched Mr. & Mrs. Balls?
Step forward, Gordon Brown and Ed Balls. Men of the people to their very bone marrow."
"So tell me Balls why it is that my mate's son, an IT graduate from 2008 cannot find any suitable employment and is now unemployed and on anti-depressants?
You tell me, and I'll tell him"
"How depressing, this is soulsearching by the souless.
Like a one clubbed golfer, all the triangulators can do is that one thing. Over and over again. Bravely following from the front.
Hope they never get close to power again."
"If the jobs were here why wern't they filled with our fit, hard working men and women? Was it that the benfits on offer outshone working for a living.
What of illegal immigrants. As their title implies, they are ILLEGAL. So why are so many thousands still here and who is paying for their keep, whilst, due to costs, denying the life saving cancer drugs tor the sick or real care for the elderly.
None of these issues you faced in office and fudge yet again now. You have chosen instead the easy option of saying you were wrong over Eastern European immigration. It's the peoples from the rest of the world, who are not part of the EU that we are concerned about."
"WeAreTheWorld
6 Jun 2010, 1:34AM
Me too. And that other New Labour pumpkin head Blair has been championing their admission to the EU for two decades. If nothing else, the Greeks will see that never happens."
Is it because our IT school and higher education is crap and Indian computer science education is better ? I don't know; just asking. My daughter studied IT at secondary school for 5 years and learned only to make a sandwich menu on a Word document and to price it on a simple spreadsheet. I have seen the IT they do in Chinese secondary schools and believe me it's not like that. It's programming and code.
"there is no problem with eastern Europeans, the more the merrier. We should be grateful they wanted to come here at all, to work in demeaning jobs for low wages. Have you ever been to East Europe, Balls? Poland for one is much much nicer than Britain. But we had jobs that needed filling and they came. They didn't take the jobs from the British, they took jobs that were not being filled.
The real problem of immigration is in the vast ethnic ghettos of insularity and despair. I should know I live in one - Hackney - where every few days it seems a black kid is shot and the ""community"" shrugs it off."
"Aren't they a laugh these Labour folks? Here's Ed' fellow contestant, Diane Abbott

Some 92 years AFTER the Tories, who elected an Asian as the MP for Bethnal Green North East in 1895.
We're still, of course, waiting for a female Labour leader, never mind Prime Minister.
No, not you, Harriet. Fegedabahtit."
"mannin _AT_ 6 Jun 2010, 10:06AM

Possibly for young adults coming out of New Labours dumbed down degrees but these Indian and Chinese students are competing with older individuals with

. Maybe it might have less to do with the knowledge of these immigrants and more to do with hope cheap they cost to employ?"
"mannin _AT_ 6 Jun 2010, 10:06AM

Possibly for young adults coming out of New Labours dumbed down degrees but these Indian and Chinese students are competing with older individuals with years of experience. Maybe it might have less to do with the knowledge of these immigrants and more to do with hope cheap they cost to employ?"
More pathetic grovelling why are you not on remand awaiting trial for treason ?
"mannin
6 Jun 2010, 10:06AM


As an IT Consultant and Expert working for a large Financial Firm, I can confirm that large powerful financial firms have spun the need for Foreign IT Staff just because it is cheaper. I see a large Indian IT staff when a few years back that would not have been the case. Or course stupid Politicians believe them despite the fact it leaves British IT graduates without a route into the profession. It is very very sad......
These guys are not doing anything that a British Graduate or trained and experienced guy could not do.
PS. There is a difference between High School IT and the IT professionals by the way...."
Sorry, Ed. Anyone who has screwed up the country's demographics to the extent that you, by your own woffle-smothered admission, have done - never mind gravely messing up its education system - is not fit to be in government, let alone leader of a (once) major party.
"ChrisBaldwin

Some 80% of EE migrants work for minimum wage. They were brought in specifically to keep wages down - as Sir Digby Jones put it a few years ago ""immigrants are doing the work for less"" - later of course he became a Minister in the ""Labour"" gov't. Of course during the years 2004-2007 we had a lot of spurious economic growth based on financial bullshxt which Broon was pleased to characterise as ""no more boom and bust""(wonder how he's doing in his secure unit in Fife btw).
Now of course we face a total crisis of employment - and of housing; the employment situation is of course bound to deteriorate even further with savage public spending cuts an inevitability - the IFS calculated that on the basis of Broon-Darling's dubious figures there would be 25% cuts in non-ring-fenced dept's.
All this the Duffy's and the NEET's need like a hole in the head. They are competing with much better qualified people from abroad very largely for minimum wage jobs where minimal or zero qualifications are required; and in the context of employment falling off a cliff.
When the Labour Party was the Labour Party Mrs Duffy was a priority concern; not a ""bigot"" to be sheered at behind her back.
Having said that of course Balls' article is an odious piece of expediency"
"No, they are entirely completely tied together. Do you think the USA would have grown to be the biggest economy on the planet if people from Illinois were banned from moving to California?
What a moron. I thought Balls was supposed to be an expert on economic matters.

SO it's OK for us to take highly paid jobs off Europeans, but not for them to come here to pick potatoes for the minimum wage? I think you are running for the leadership of the wrong party. Your concern for wages in the poorer parts of Europe is disingenuous - it is these genuinely poor people who benefit the most from being able to travel to find work, but they wont be voting for the new leader of the labour party, so f*** 'em.

So you think that people in countries who have run their finances competently should be forced to bale out those who haven't? I can see why you would believe this, but it is balls."
I am dismayed by the conflation of racism (yet again) and immigration. Are there problems with immigration? Perhaps but asking the question does not make you racist or right wing. Does the article not acknowledge the unease that an increasing number of people have about immigration? I also feel that we need clear data to answer questions around immigration. We also need to depart from the old dialectic about immigration and party politics. I applaud any attempt to engender discussion in this area.
Thus begins Labour's desperate attempt to win back the British workers it betrayed over the past 13 years and the British sovereignty it gifted to the New European Empire; the most polite response must be go away Balls and the rest of your dishonourable colleagues. We want our country back.
"nottydave seems to have it right.
The problem is not immigrants but that workers are not sufficiently protected against wage undercutting. If you're a Pole, prepared to live in a rented room in squalid accommodation with five other Poles, then you can afford to work for less (and send money home or save) than the family man or woman who has to keep up a more expensive household. If employment law ensured that all work was capable of providing a living wage for people committed to raising a family in Britain, then British and Polish workers would be able to compete fairly. That would be the left-wing answer to the problem.
Another problem is how to respond to the likelihood of people coming from countries who are unlikely to be able to find work in Britain and who are not (as is the case with the Poles) eligible for welfare but for whom being dirt poor in Britain might be preferable to be being dirt poor in Romania or Bulgaria. A little noticed problem are those Poles etc holed-up in squats drinking or snorting or injecting themselves to an early grave, who reject charitable attempts to get them home and over whom the state has no responsibility except in criminal justice terms."
Yes I know. But should bright 16 years olds studying IT at secondary school still be doing cafe/sandwich menus on Word ? Is is good preparation for computer science advanced and degree level studies ? Shouldn't code and computer languages and programming be taught much much earlier, as in China, Thailand, India ? Just asking.
"Just to add:
It is also amazing how people's logic on this, especially on the Left, becomes so twisted. Many do not realise that the NHS importing Doctors and Nurses from developing nations may be denying these countries of valuable health care resources. If I bothered to analyse COINs I would no doubt find some white-European health Care consultants (i.e. Doctors and Nurses rebranded as Consultants) working in India, South Africa, and other developing countries on super high Consultancy packages (flights, hotels, food and wages).
So we may be in the position that we import Doctors and Nurses from them on the cheaper and then we pay in the Foriegn Aid budget for expenses health care consultants to assist them in health care!!!!!
But I suppose if I do not believe 100% all and any immigration is good then I must be a racist....
Stanford - proud to be a racist."
"TomHarrison

Rubbish. They were not ""brought in"" - they chose to come here because they could make a better living. That is what intelligent people do. Rather than sitting on their arses and demanding the government give them money, which appears to be the Labour way."
"I'm glad I'd already decided not to vote for Ed Balls in the leadership election (not that it was an especially hard decision). This facile, cretinous, half witted argument, that migrant workers are to blame for employers slashing wages and terms and conditions, sums up much of what is wrong with Balls.
Employers are to blame for cutting wages and terms and conditions Ed, not workers. Employers don't do it because they have to; like dogs licking their own privates, they do it because they can. Faced with a choice between cutting wages so they can give more back to shareholders, and paying staff a living wage, employers will always choose the former. That's why the state has to intervene. It's not complicated. What's more, the burden of lower wages and worse terms and conditions isn't borne by individual workers, it's borne by every taxpayer as government has to intervene in more and more complex ways to keep families out of poverty or to prevent the immiserization of whole sections of the unskilled poor.
It's time for people like Balls to face the truth. Every dividend paid now from the proceeds of ending final salary pension schemes is a pension payment the state will have to make in the future to people who will be worse off than they otherwise would be. Every badly paid worker who doesn't bring home enough money to feed his or her family is a tax on all of us as we pay for the excess profits the employer gleefully banks.
In those circumstances, writing a cretinous article straight out of the BNP handbook on how blame foreigners for everything should disqualify Ed Balls from ever holding office in the Labour Party gain."
"This despicable man has spent the last thirteen years lining his own pockets at the public expense while threatening all rivals, and bankrupting our country at the same time.
The man who manipulated a frighteningly disturbed Prime Minister into leading the most damaging regime for at least one hundred years.
Surely an appropriate leader of the terminally discredited Labour party.
In my view, it is beyond shame still to provide Balls with a platform.."
".
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/48d26910-4798-11df-a4a6-00144feab49a.html
Balls shouldn't be touched with a barge pole; he was Broon's de-regulatory bag-carrier from way back. Pathetic excuses as per usual. If a gov't can't resist ""huge pressure"" from the media and the City, if they have no power, they why should anyone vote for them? As for being unable to resist the Tories Nulab had 3 figure majorities so how dismal an excuse is that? But of course what Balls says is utterly disingenuous; they actively sought an alliance with the City(prawn cocktail offensive and onwards)"
There is nothing right-wing, never mind 'hysterical' about opposing the undemocratic and expansionist so-called 'European Union'. You would if if you supported democracy and the rights of working-class people.
"While Mr Balls may have many deficiencies (particularly moral), he aint stupid and you can see the obvious line of attack against the coalition.
We allow anyone based on their skills not their creed while you specifically target non-eu (and in the minds of voters) non white immigrants.
To be blunt while race is an issue for some in reality the main problem with much immigration is not racial or economic but cultural, we accept cultures who do not value our own culture. And rather than encouraging them to integrate to become British and enable us to learn something from their culture we allow the segregation of our communities on cultural lines with no discernible benefit. There is in some forms of immigration an irreconcilable clash of cultures
The underlying problem for the west is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilization whose people who are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power. The problem for Islam is not the CIA or the US department of defence. It is the west.
Samuel Huntington 1995!"
She also seems to have forgotten about Shapurji Saklatvala, elected as Communist MP for Battersea North in 1922, and Dadabhai Naoroji, elected as the Liberal MP for Finsbury Central in 1892.
"But Labour introuduced the minimum wage Ed so how could immigrants from the eastern European parts of the EU have had an impact on wages?
And are you saying that Poles, Lithuanians and Hungarians are less in employment legislation protection than Brits so industries employing them were able to 'empoly a light touch' as the saying goes? Surely not?"
"This is the real betrayal of british workers perpetrated by the Labour government - not immigration. In the modern world they are in competition with eastern europeans, indians and chinese, whether they like it or not. Banning immigration will not protect them, the jobs will just go abroad.
We have to compete, and we could, except Ed Balls and his colleagues have spent the last decade dumbing down our education system. I feel sorry for the generation who went through the education system under his government - they are well and truly screwed. Having gone throught school in the 80's and 90's - the era of supposed 'tory cuts' - at least I had the benefit of learning maths and sciences."
"""The government in which I was a cabinet minister and major league policy wonk made incompetent, unpopular and unnecessary decisions. Now please make me party leader"".
Mind if I get back to you on that one, Ed?"
"Dogstarscribe
`It's time for people like Balls to face the truth. Every dividend paid now from the proceeds of ending final salary pension schemes is a pension payment the state will have to make in the future to people who will be worse off than they otherwise would be. Every badly paid worker who doesn't bring home enough money to feed his or her family is a tax on all of us as we pay for the excess profits the employer gleefully banks.'
This is factually correct argument as far as the appalling damage to the economy perpetrated by Balls and Brown from the destruction of final,salary schemes.
The point about employers being `gleeful' at the loss of defined benefit schemes is simply wrong since providing such schemes was always a major factor in attracting the best applicants and demonstrated the high quality of such employers. employers always had a choice as to whether or not they offered a final salary scheme.
They do not any more c/o Brown, Balls and Cooper.
Shame on them for the terrible damage they have inflicted while personally enjoying the benefits of the best pension scheme in the country.
I read recently that the Balls family baked in excess of £500k last year. a poster above says that he found it difficult to decide whether or not to vote for Balls as leader.
What does this say?
g"
"I'd like to be controversial here and maybe ask people to rethink their mindset. I know we think that (we in) the UK are still the best thing since sliced bread but, aside from improving your English, is there really a good reason for all this unskilled labour to drift to the UK?
The pound you earn is (and in many cases it may even be only a pound thanks to agencies and gangmasters) is worth ever less when you send it back home, it's expensive, you are at the mercy of a bent buy-to-let sector that will charge you a fortune to live in a hovel, public transport is expensive, it's a quasi surveillance state worse than the one that your parents used to live in, the people seem to be getting more and more racist and xenophobic by the hour etcx etc etc. Moreover, if you believe the police and security bods a terrorist attack is iminent 24/7. I just can't quite believe that there are herds of people queueing to get in. Really."
`Banked' - sorry
I'll explain. The minimum wage was pitched very low, most factory workers received more than the minimum wage because competition amongst employers for workers drove wage levels up. But when all of a sudden hundreds of thousands of workers from low-wage states entered the country, there was an abundance of labour supply, so average wages dropped down nearer to the minimum wage.
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"Lemmywinks

Allowed to come in then. The head of the CBI(the then Sir Fatso Digby Jones) said that ""immigrants are doing the work for less""(quoted in Elliot's Fantasy Island). So obviously there were losers - ie Labour's traditional constituency, which is why Balls has written his canting piece.
His well-padded Lordship Jones did a TV programme about ""Neets"" in Swindon, he was lecturing and patronising the lads in his best style. There didn't appear to be anything much wrong with them, save a lack of opportunity. Anyway Jones was ""motivating"" the young unemployed in what was apparently the former British Rail engineering workshops, now derelict. The irony of this appeared to escape him - as indeed it always escapes chancers like him and Balls"
"Ed,
if you had ACTED when your government's claim that 13,000 workers would come to the UK from Eastern Europe proved laughably inaccurate, and turned into an outcome of over one million, then you might have a slim chance to be believed.
You didn't act. Instead, the million+ Eastern Europeans proceeded to distort the British economy, imposing social costs far in excess of any benefit the provided.
Indeed, your actions were to commission flawed study after flawed study, utilising bogus premises to assert lies that the immigrants were benefiting the country, not harming us.
So please, stop weeping crocodile tears. Stop performing U-turns when you have no power. You went full speed ahead when you had your hands on the levers of power, and you had access to the facts. We don't believe your claims. A damacene conversion on the road to the party leadership is laughable."
So one of New Labour's senior lieutenants has admitted that they were "wrong not to have restrictions on immigration". So that's an admission of unrestricted/uncontrolled immigration under that administration. Now all we need them to do is admit that uncontrolled immigration was a deliberate, albeit unspoken, policy of New Labour. I remember when they first got in they abolished those reasonable "Primary Purpose" rules on immigration via marriage opening up waves of chain migration and sending out the signal that the UK was an easy touch to get into. Which it proved to be in those 13 years.
"'Free movement of goods and services [without] free movement of labour'. So in other words, a two-tier Europe: Poles, Czechs, Romanians and so on are allowed to work - in Poland, the Czech Republic and Romania - for pittance in horrendous conditions in order to pproduce cheap goods/services that fuel our growth, comfortable lifestyles, etc, but if they want to have a share in this growth, lifestyle, etc., they'll be hounded away at the door.
If that's what you want, fine, but don't call it a 'fair and open world'."
"Mr Balls, what a nasty little article by a nasty little man.
You say

It is very cheap and inaccurate of you, no matter what MacShane has said, to accuse Mr Cameron in this manner.
Your own record in government is abysmal and I suggest that you and your friends allow the Coalition a chance to sort out the mess that you lot have left behind you."
"_AT_ BUrgau205
The decline of final salary pension schemes started, not in 1997, when so many posters on here think history began, but during the previous government, when pension fund surpluses were capped and pension contribution holidays for employers were not only permitted but encouraged. The result was that funds were much less well equipped to cope with market shocks and actuarial shifts."
You had 13 years, you did sod all. What you and your dis-credited nu-labour friends need to do is resign and let some fresh blood into the Labour party. That might be enough to prevent Labour from being out of power as long as the Tories. Of course that would require you and your nu labour friends to put country and party above you own interests. Not likely to happen.
"I don't remember you speaking out like this when Bliar and Brown were in charge.
Hypocrisy? or am I losing my memory?"
The easiest benefits (without workfare conditionality) and housing benefit system in Europe. Child benefit can be sent home. No language tests for you or your extended family. Free schools, free health care. Soft policing and enforcement. Soft tax inspection. Officials don't speak any languages apart from English. Idiosyncracies like pickpocketing and killing and eating swans accepted as valuable cultural diversity......
"Yes you were.
You were also wrong to let in so many from other parts of the world with alien cultures and to ignore the consequences on our way of life."
"Dogstarscribe
You have little understanding of defined benefits rules and are latching onto well worn but entirely incorrect canards.
I have to go shopping now but if you are around in about two hours, let me know and I will explain pension scheme holidays and the 5% accrual cap etc.
Suffice to say, pension holidays are normally imposed upon defined benefits schemes by scheme administrators or consulting actuaries and, in almost all cases do not convey an advantage to the corporate sponsor of the scheme.
The funding cap is likewise misunderstood by most employees who don't bother to read the scheme rule book."
"The perception that immigrants use/abuse the benefits system is a major factor in our concern about immigration. Most of the cases of gross abuse seem to be directed against Non-European immigrants. Housing benefit of over £1,000 per week being an example. We have a minimum wage structure in this country which means that both British & foreign workers have a common baseline for their pay. So we should not have stories of immigrants working for less than the minimum wage. It seems that most EU migrants what ever their qualifications would prefer to work rather than rely on benefits. This is in stark contrast to some British workers. A lot of the jobs being created in Britain are low wage, menial tasks. The Poles, etc see these as stepping stones to a better future, the British see them as offering nothing over their benefits. That is our problem!!.
Ed Balls & Labour dismissed the reality before the election, it has come back to haunt them now."
"Which is why I'll never vote Labour again. They still got loads of votes despite their immigration policy, and yet in a clamour for power they are prepared to be as racist and bigoted as the Tories. It is pathetic and they don't distinguish themselves from the racism of the Tories so what is the point of voting for them?
Immigration isn't a problem - racism and trying to blame whole sections of humanity for a country's ills is the problem."
"It's like Balls is up before the parole board.
""Yes, I understand now that what I did was wrong, really wrong. I caused a lot of hurt to a lot of people, and I'm really, really sorry.
But everyone deserves a second chance. So please let me out, and put me in charge of the country."""
"Cypher2

Not something Balls would care to talk about, or indeed the consequences which Nulab sought to control by what must be considered the creation of a surveillance state; which has reached an extraordinary pitch here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/04/birmingham-surveillance-cameras-muslim-community"
". That means re-examining the relationship between domestic laws and European rules which allow unaccompanied migrants to send child benefit and tax credits back to families at home.
This is crucial. We need to end the lunacy of giving tax payers money to immigrants in the form of benefits and tax credits which simply further incentivises people to come here.
Perhaps we could agree with other EU states that the cost of benefits to UK nationals else where in the EU will be met by HM Treasury on the condition the same applies in reverse.
As for non EU nationals if they are not able to earn their own living they shouldn't be here.
Immigrants should also be lower priority for social housing."
Nice to see that the Far Right blogs got their bloggers out of bed on a sunday and raving.
Not so much that as going to USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. British born and trained medical staff find there are no teaching (learning) positions in the UK Health Service as Health Trusts are not allowed to take them in preference to foreign born and trained medical staffs who now form the majority of clinical staff in the NHS. We train medical staff for other countries now, not for Britain.
"This article seems to have provided an opportunity to call Ed Balls a racist! Is there is no end to this word's wanton application? To a man intimately involved in a project to ""rub the middle classes noses in multiculturalism""?!
Now Balls is, without exception one of the most nauseating contemporary politicians. Just a little school cap on that tidy schoolboy haircut and the effect would be a truer representation of his Jeffrey Archer-esque eagerness to please; something which manifests itself as universal wariness.
But, while Balls is a hypocrite, a hopeless party-lackey and a laughing stock, I'm just not sure that accusing him of racism - because he thinks his party's made a rather unpopular mistake in the field of immigration, is going to help anyone not least because it's patently untrue."
At least one Labour leadership candidate is willing to speak the truth on mass immigration and the dreadful effect it has had on British society.
It does apply in reverse. If you can speak and read and write Romanian you can get a job in Romania and send Romanian child benefits home. Try it and see how much you get !!! Britain has the most generous no questions asked benefits system in Europe. No conditionalities. No qualifications required. That is the problem. We even provide translators !!!!
"Sorry Ed but I'd have thought a bigger reason to block Turkey's entry to the EU might be their lack of freedom of speech. It is a criminal offence to criticise the state or the republics founding father Ataturk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301
If it is a criminal offence to publicly discuss the mass killing of Kurds and Armenians in 1915 then entry to the EU should not be allowed. I would love to see Turkeys entry to the EU on the basis of repeal of its most backward and human rights infringing laws."
"Algebraist

That is one of the finest posts I've ever seen on this site - thank you."
"Why can you not say in The Guardian that excessive immigration from asian is wrong for Britain.
Its not racist, its an opinion, shared by a great many people who are getting angry that in this country and on this site people cannot express this political view."
"Lemmywinks
6 Jun 2010, 10:25AM


Sorry not sure where your economic analysis comes from but some points to be considered:
1. The US is one country, even if it is federal state, so that transfer payments, education policy, and a national currency means that there is a fairer level playing field between workers in New York and Austin than say New York and a city in Mexico. If Turkey joins the EU tomorrow it does not overnight become the same as someone from London competing with someone from Manchester first or even Frankfurt second.
2.(a) If open borders in immigration were 100% positive why is this not included in the NAFTA agreement so that Mexicans and Canadians enjoy free movements - or does the USA know something you do not?
2.(b) Related to (a) is human beings are not just goods, they are the reason for democracy and utlimate actors who benefit from economic activity. So we play a different role than capital goods in society - thankfully!
A example would be - If capital goods prices were reduced on mass this can be a positive to the economy as a whole but if wages were redued on mass this is unlikely to be positive to the economy on a whole as wages = demand and demand = the buying of goods. Keynes was the pioneer of Macro vs. Micro and is worth a read on this subject.
3. Import and Export: Should an immigrants come in not to settle but to earn more for their families back home then they are effectively and import which means that purchasing power is lost abroad.
4. Economics vs. Society: man does not live by economics alone. Therefore, importing immigrants from an ""alien"" culture will have an effect (good or bad depending on your view points). If you value diversity then fine but some do not or not in every case at least. On the other side of the equation, immigrant can break the national cultural bonds and help to produce cultural gheteos. Immigration can result in ""strange"" cultural practices that are unwanted by the host culture: arrange marriages, female circumcision, primitive religious practice (i.e. believing in demonized children), family marriage (i.e. marrying between cousins) etc.
Overall, immigration is not 100% bad or good but a activity like any other that will produce winners and losers. Even if you net out the economic benefits and say that is a good thing that does still negate that there will always be winners and loser. But as point 4 shows, it has a cultural dimension which is ultimately a value judgement.
I'll stop there as I need to go for a jog...nice chatting all and as others have said it is only now that Ed is not in government he even acknowledges that immigration was a problem...prior to that when people like me and others mentioned it we were smeared with being little Englanders, biggots if not racist....

Sorry Ed, all I can say is too little too late.
Stanford...off for a jog."
"cinematizer

Easy to see what you're after, Cinematizer: foreigners to work over here ""in demeaning jobs for low wages"", as you said yourself.
Don't tell us - you're an employer, right?
No wonder you're ""grateful"".
But don't tell us British working-class how we're supposed to feel about it."
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This is a 'cock and balls' story!
"Immigration is normal now. Sorry, but there it is. Globalisation worked our way for 30 years (cheap food and the rest) but now it does not.
I live in one of those European areas Ed mentioned. 35% immigrant here (and this in a nation we Brits think of as not diverse). Not sure why he pointed us out though - there are relatively few Britains working in Frankfurt. (Only 7,000 in the whole German state inwhich it is located).
I think Brits need to open their eyes. Poles prepared to share cheap lodgings and do the jobs Brits don't want to? Yes, that's economic migration. Just like the myriad Brits in Berlin in their 200 Eur a month rooms getting all exciting about their nice generous German welfare benefits and 400 Eur a month jobs as well. And the zillion Brits in Spain who do not even register their presence and work ""black"".
That earlier nonsense about language tests is just typical low Beritish exectation. It takes a few months to get by in another language. It's no barrier to emigration. Means testing would be a far bigger one.
And as for those strange British men here who wet themseves because (wow) they were once in the same room as Polish girl and, guess what, she even deigned to speak to them. Really, try to be a bit cooler guys, perhaps? Plenty of us British ladies are hanging out with, having sex with, marrying, having children with foreign men. It's really no big deal. Totally normal. it says nothing about the British men we turn down."
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"Have I got this right?
Gurkhas can live here, because they are heroic ex-military men.
Other foreigners can't."
"Lemmywinks

They were brought in.
The British Government along with the CBI set up agencies in Eastern Europe to recruit workers and facilitate their emigration to Britain. They even advertised on Polish TV.
While avoiding conflictive areas (Burnley, for instance) they directed the workers towards designated towns and cities.
And they paid the councils to accept them.
I call that ""brought in""."
"http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7144906.ece
There is a serious problem, their forecasts were complete shite
Funny that we have never been so enriched by immigration, but never so broke.
Obviously it is Mrs Duffy's fault, and all those dreadful indigenous bigoted proles of course.
What is needed is more immigration.
There should be more articles by Phillipe Legrain(http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/philippelegrain) on here expounding the great truths of the ""lump labour fallacy"" and that there is no fixed pool of jobs in the economy - he's right there; there's going to be a lot less"
"""Picking on white European immigrants is just a sneaky way for a left wing politician to disrespect immigrants without being called racist""
-how about the colour immigrants?
Are you blind?
; )"
"Ed, I wonder if you have stopped to consider that, if elected, you would put the Labour Party into reverse gear for parliaments?
Personally, I wish that you would have the good grace to recognise your unpopularity, (outside of the MP supporters who have nominated you for the leadership, from within the House of Commons), and stand aside.
After 13 years the party needs fresh blood. Not people who are tainted, and perceived by the electorate to be inextricably linked with failure."
"Ed Balls has got some nerve. This ' we screwed up ' posturing doesn't make amends for anything. As for the NHS, it has always had a low pay culture for ancillary staff like hospital porters, roundsmen, etc. It is a wonder the NHS ever attracted any blue collar workforce with the poor wages on offer.
I don't think the likes of Balls, or his Labour colleagues, have got a clue what they are on about when talking about the NHS. It clearly now is a poor imitation of the quality health service it once was."
You could start by sending back the Milibands. Skilled workers my arse.
"So, it is Ed Balls who is staking out the ground as the right wing candidate in the leadership election.
Theclaim made here that the overall impact of recent migration has eroded the wages and conditions of working class peopleis not borne out by the facts. Negative imnpacts of this sort have been limited both in terms of the sectors involved and geographical regions. To quote the findings of the WorkFoundation's study on the impact of migration:

Check http://theworkfoundation.co.uk/pressmedia/news/newsarticle.aspx?oItemId=45 for the source and the full study.
This article is evidence that a section of the Labour party elite believes that their power can only be re-built by situating themselves to the right of the coalltion, claiming that their subserviance to to banking and finance as a motor for economic growth represents a superior strategy to guide the recovery. Balls clearly intends to mobilise nationalistic anxieties to plot a course for his political fortune. These people never learn!"
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"But Mr Balls, several politicians informed us that as members of the EU, these Eastern Europeans were entitled to come in. So what is the ""allow"".
I suspect Mr Balls wants to appear tough on immigration and has picked in an easy diffuse target unlikely to accuse him of racism.
Rest assured, if anyone discusses asylum or other immigrants groups, he will be his usual right-on self throwing accusations like confetti."
"“strong controls on unskilled migration”
So why are there so many illegal immigrants and how do they manage to get in? They can’t all hide in lorries to cross the Channel.
At the same time as allowing virtually unrestricted immigration, the previous government made it increasingly difficult for legitimate visitors and businessmen to obtain visas. In fact it is so difficult that the massage is “we don’t want you”.
For example, about 18 months ago, a Tunisian employee of my company needed to obtain a visa to attend a trade show in the UK. Apparently his, and all other, applications and passports had to be sent to an independent UK government contractor in Egypt for a decision! Furthermore, the minimum time in which a visa could be issued was 15 days. We gave up.
I am now trying to help an Egyptian businessman to renew his 2 year multiple visa. However, it is barely worthwhile applying because of the burdensome questions. For example, he has to list all visits made outside Egypt, including dates, duration and the purpose of the visits, for the last 10 years! There must be at least 50 of these and I am sure many businessmen would have travelled much more than that over 10 years.
What relevance is it for a businessman, who wants to come to the UK for some meetings, to list the money he gives each month to his family and other dependents? How is this supposed to be answered, especially for someone with complicated financial arrangements that vary month by month? Why ask such questions as: Have you ever been involved in, supported, or encouraged terrorist activities in any country? Who on earth would answer ‘yes’?
For businessmen (and visitors), especially those already known to the UK authorities, there should be a much simpler procedure for visa applications.
Mr. Balls and other ex-ministers have much to answer for."
"orkney89 confided

Hang on orkney89 I'll check... (...reads standard Equalities and Diversity manual...)
Yes I can confirm it does. Congratulations, you have made a racist comment. You are using a negative stereotype (homely skanks) to deprecate a racial and gendered group, namely indigenous white British females. I'd take a wild guess that you don't belong to this group yourself.
No need to be concerned though since the groups you are comparing are both white european and therefore you can say what you like about them. The group you are deprecating, white Brits, have even less status on CiF so this probably didn't register on anyone's radar. Except mine."
"No, Balls. You weren't wrong for letting in eastern Europeans, you were wrong for letting employers pay rubbish wages and offer rubbish conditions and making the British labour market so ""competitive"". You pretended that your shitty, pathetic minimum wage legislation was all the protection that workers needed in the new Europe.
And you got away with all of this because, with the exception of a few old men, there are no working class MPs left in the Labour Party, no one to speak up for the unskilled manual labourers who bore the brunt of your ""competitive"" labour market."
"thfc123

Surely, it's up to employers to decide which level of English their employees speak."
Outrageous article………….why, Labour set up a special unit of the Border Agency in Sheffield which is forcing Romanians and Bulgarians to work for under the minimum wage and outside employment laws. The Home Office and the Department of Health and Social Security both are part of an elaborate system to try and prevent them obtaining NHI numbers, a legal right under European Law. There are agencies charging £600 for a Yellow Student card (issued by Sheffield) which allows them to work 20 hours a week. Hotels in London will engage Romanians to clean room at £5 per room. Frequently they may only get 2 or 3 rooms a day but need to be at the Hotel for 10 hours. Ed Balls really should be very careful about what he’s saying about European immigration.
"_AT_ArseneKnows 6 Jun 2010, 1:05AM

Tell us, do, exactly HOW one might describe the EU as a democratic institution? And if it is not - as it is not - why you think it a good thing? Already, we have seen it used to invert our legal system in such a way that whereas it used to be - for centuries - ""If it ain't specifically banned, it's legal"", now, the converse is the case.
Many Russians think it hilarious that 20 years after we trumpetted the fall of the Wall as the triumph of Western Democracy, we are now creating our own EUSSR, with an utterly unnacountable ruline elite in charge of us.
Anyway, over to you. I'm all ears ... so to speak"
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"If we had eradicated poverty in the UK, had decent wages at the low end, a decent public housing stock, had decent industries with decent apprenticeships and a sustainable economy with good long term prospects I would have been far more predisposed towards recent mass immigration than I am - although I will never 'blame' any immigrant of whatever nationality or colour for what has gone on here. Instead mass immigration has made England in particular even more of a basket case than it already was. Therefore IMO non-EU immigration and EU immigration should have been curtailed because it was bound to impact on the living standards of the people already here and especially as ever the poorest in our society.
As a result I for one will never forgive Labour for unfettered mass immigration and their flagrant use of the race card to discredit any criticism of such a policy so they could as I specfically recall ensure the Hoteling and Catering industries were supplied with all the labour they needed - copyright, D Blunkett circa 2003. (Imagine the entire make-up of a nation being changed to appease the Catering industry?!) So I don't care what you or any other nulab supporter say to ameliorate what you have done beyond noting this ill thought and predictably distasteful attempt to scapegoat Eastern Europeans (you should be ashamed to single any group in particular out!). And I don't think the Tories or Libs are any better. As churlish as it sounds you've effectively disenfranchised me through this and many other issues. I now know why so many people I know have totally and completely disconnected from politics. Depressing."
"MORE underpayed labour zones.
MORE delocalisation.
Open up your arms to global exploitation.
When it fails, use the old national pride trick."
"'Poles have become a symbol of honest work and fair pay. They speak better English than the natives, too'
Partly true. Honest? They have records of many sick- leave notes issued by the same doctor.They are familar with social security regulations and rules...
It is also true they are have the habit to squeeze other nationals out, by keeping the insider? information JUST to their country men. The younger females are willingly trade their dignity for better positions-the locals can hardly beat them-for some unarguable reasons.
There has been no host culture such a thing-they are all speaking their own language even at work, buying Polish foods, throw their Polish party every weekends-just go checking areas of their accommodations , how many refuse sacks they have thrown each week and to, how much child benefits they gained, for their homeland?
Yes, they are hard working and prepare to do almost anything for themselves, even they are the 'brought in'.
The locals can hardly survive with their hourly rates coz locals are not travelling/living together that they do not pay single occupant rated council tax but produced 4 or 5 times rubbish...anyway they are 'brought in to do what the lazy Brits do not want to do' by globalization.
If you are blind to these, then you should happily keep your mouth shut, that they are here for your retirement funding, and to improve your gene pools. All Brits should think of stop giving birth, as the Poles are the much better species, they speak better English than the Brits haha ; )
BTY, why not bring more Indian in, they speak/write much better English, and have much high IQ, and their girls are much prettier ( IMHO, slimmer) than those overfed Eastern European ladies?
And Mr Ball, it is too late to spin now."
"How many economist does it take to switch out the light bulb of neoliberal capitalism?
Too many, busy telling is its still working if we only change the decoration.
Obviously we have to do the society change ourself."
What are you talking about? Why is German young generation supposed to be pass away premature?
"Dunnyboy

Exactly - 40*£5.85/HOUR doesn't win any prizes with the high rents and utility bills that have to be forked out.
To the extent that British workers have opted for a ""life"" on benefits rather than working in min wage conditions this just shows that the latter is inferior to the former as a life-style; a pretty wretched state. Although overall we live in a mass unemployment society, which never went away from the eighties onwards -contrary to what gov't's claimed, and attempted to demonstrate with a whole raft of cynical expedients.
Every month we hear the same old rubbish to the effect that ILO measure unemployment is up, economic inactivity is up; but by some gravity defying device the claimant count is down.
Effectively setting min wage as a ceiling worsens the grotesque income disparities and social division within the country and also socialises the cost because WFTC and HB has to be paid out to ensure that people can survive at all - given that benefit spending accounts for about 30% of public expenditure this impacts adversely on the desperate fix we in vis a vis the deficit. Balls' wretched gov't did nothing to even try and stop the appalling drain of better paying manufacturing jobs which created real wealth and supported many more jobs throughout supply chains, unlike burger flipping and shelf-stacking. Balls and his demented boss were propagandists for win-win globalisation, which was a complete and utter lie"
If humanity wants to survive, the old work ethic mantra :" willing to do hard work under each social condition" has to be revealed for what it is : exploitation.
"Spot on PaulLambert
Capital, goods and services seem to have more rights than humans (workers)."
"Eastern European immigration simply replaced Irish immigration after the Republic of Ireland became richer and better run then the UK from the mid 1990's onward.
Ed Balls just found the Irish to be more of a laugh."
'we' did not decide that. You and your political buddies decided that. And now you seek to cynically use that decision to launch your leadership bid. You are dead in the water already if this is the best you can do.
"Stanford

Sad? SAD?????
It fills my heart with joy!
Let them bring in as many foreign middle-class undergraduates as employers want.
Throw our own molly-coddled, moaning, lazy, 9 to 5, bonus-grabbing, 4x4 driving, sanctimonious, posh-talking, anti-racist, Guardian-reading, wine-sodden middle-classes on the scrap heap.
I've heard there's plenty of jobs for them in Armenia, if they'll just get off their arses.
Let's see how they like it.
Then we working-classes can sit back and have a bloody good belly-laugh. God knows, it's time we had one."
Oh, I didn't know there was a Tory party leadership election as well! Strange timing, but there you go...
Ed Ball's immigration policy can be summed up in a few words: rob the poor countries of their skilled labour but keep the unskilled out. This apart from being immoral is also impractical. People who try to smuggle themselves into this country are among the most enterprising but are also the most desperate to improve their situations as well as of their immediate families. Those who are allowed to settle here bring their families over and find their children informed by the sufferings of their parents on the whole do much better than natve children in our school system. They are our future as much as anyone else. You can not walk along any high street in inner London without noticing the economic activities of the so-called unskilled workers. Many of them create their own jobs or do jobs which natives are not prepared to do. So why blame them for the predicament of of the unskilled workers in this country. Our welfare system is more to blame than anything else.
"...'so how does Labour plan to solve the problem of an ageing population?...
Immigrants don't grow old then?"
How does someone with live with a name like Ed Balls?
"You won't win votes from Labour Party members like myself by attacking migrant workers in a manner which comes across as racist when the real problem is the need for fair pay and decent, affordable housing for all. Labour failed on both these issues because it was in thrall to big business and the City of London. You never set the minimum wage high enough to take people out of benefits and because you allowed the private 'buy-to-let' housing sector grow uncontrolled and gave them tax perks on top, you made it very difficult for ordinary 'hard working families' (to use that phrase beloved by Labour politicians) to buy homes.
This not only alienated the young ones, it upset their parents as well (people like me and my wife). That thirteen years of Labour came to this is a measure of how badly you failed the Labour Party's core vote. The issues on the doorstep were low pay and expensive housing. Tackle these problems and you go a long way to addressing the issue of migrant workers.
Of course, Labour did better than the Tories or the Liberals would have done (or will), but when Brown and Blair embraced privatisation, PFIs and free markets to achieve what they did, they gave away far more than they gained and we and our children will be paying the price for a long time to come. And you, Ed Balls, were there at the centre and only now you tell us!
The fact that we held on in places like Nottingham where I live was because we have a community based Labour Party and a strong Labour controlled city council. I might always agree with them, but their mine and I want to feel that way about the next Labour government."
Of course New Labour are a joke, but I don't see anything racist about the article.
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Agreed after the first three words
"Northener

Too true
The axe is hovering over the Graun jobs page; time to put principles into practice
mathanai

A return to Dickensian London, nice"
"It is beyond irony that I, Tory to my boots and a fair bit right of David Cameron should choose to defend Ed Balls who is probably the most cynical and manipulative member of the last government and whose responsibility for the appalling damage they wrought will be spelled out many times in the future.
However, let me bring to your attention that Balls opposed the minimum wage vehemently on the grounds that it creates unemployment and thus its disadvantages far outweigh its presumed advantages.
In this, Ed Balls was right.
He does not mention it now though. Plu ca change.............."
"BeatonTheDonis

Yes and no. Having stayed in a supposedly good hotel for a night last week, I would as a customer have expected more of one the waiting staff than to have a perfectly reasonable question met with a blank stare, followed by the summoning of a colleague who understood basic English.
The employer is free to employ these people. I'm free not to go back again. And the Official Receiver is welcome to go in my place."
"Funny how people on this site are so staunchly pro free-markets when it comes to the movement of labour.
I enjoy the cultural benefit of our multicultural society but who really gains from immigration other then businesses who get to exploit foreign labour with long hours and low pay? Why is it so commonly accepted that British people are too proud to do certain jobs? What's liberal about keeping significant proportions of our society dependent on the state in order to survive? Sounds like a load of bollocks to me."
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"What a week of revelations. Confessions are being wrung from all areas of the last Government as people realign behind a new view of government, indulge in pre-emptive cleansing in the light of yet to be discovered transgressions, as here they try and eschew that that they were somehow suppressed and unwilling to be part of the fundamentals of the Government which, in all other departures, they were a strong proponent. Whom, bearing in mind the ease with which politicians have access to briefings and leaks, could not find a way of insinuating an altered view.
The FSA, Global Warming, two fundamental issues of modern day society, have been shown, at root, to be more issues of will rather than of fact. When a fabulously endowed Meteorological Office comes second best to a private company and its effective measures for assessing flying conditions, as with volcanic dust, we see a level of indirection that can amass when the political will is greater than the fundamental requirement. To what end have well meaning people been frightened into qualifications that the science does not actually have a clear view of? What countless billions have been squandered not addressing a problem but to prove a point? What risks have been taken with a country's economy simply because there has been a requirement to accommodate a dogma?
The Government, in a Cabinet environment, promised that the European directive on open boarders would only attract 12,000 or so people to these islands; I have no idea personally how many it did attract but estimations have suggested a million or more. Was Mr Balls, an agitator and a force suppressed by no one, not in on that comprehension of the situation? At which point in this Gulf of Mexico swell of human traffic did he have his Damascene moment of the actualité? Against a background of untrammelled access from the world in immigration numbers one would have thought that the pressure on services and the Welfare State would have informed him of the need for his intervention and the cautioning of his fellow Cabinet members. Yet only now he speaks; was Brown so much of a tyrant that before his departure the coterie surrounding him were frightened to speak their minds?
This is the Andrew Neather exposé made real. The truth is that the trap that Labour constructed was prepared for the Tories, to ‘out’ them on immigration policy and to have the propaganda coup in abeyance, '...the Tories are a neo-Nazi band of racists', if the Tories ever tried to oppose Labour disastrous support for a deeply inflicting policy that even they privately did not seem to want? The scale of immigration and the discontinuity it has caused is potentially far more damaging for Britain than the current financial crises. Financial matters can be confronted and challenged - an immigrant is for life and all subsequent lives.
You see, now that all the arguments about the purposefulness of immigrants and the benefits they accrue, their general good nature, the lessons they teach us, the wonders of multiculturalism, are all for nought, for we now know that such amiability was required to sell the project and had no need to have any association with reality. I quite like the ""Good porcelain doggy"" advert, it tickles me. Ask me what is being sold and I would not have a clue. The same could be said for Labour's insistence on the scale of immigration. Was there promise about selling dirty jobs to dirt poor people? Were they going to lift the immigrant’s children out of poverty or our own? Was it really worth denigrating the white working class so vehemently just to find space for a Tory trap? Were immigrants going to pay for our pensions and how?
As the whole of the intake was personified by the Labour Government as being good fellows to a man so it was easy to establish that a whole class of white indigenous people could be personified as little more than trailer trash by comparison as the cuckoo state eased its old allies out of the historic alliance; this could be done in the name of policy! How much we have been manipulated: Global Warming, GM, 'the money's all gone', volcanic dust, 'that bigoted woman'. Key resignations in regulatory authorities point to organisations that were told what their message had to be and told to go and look for some sort of supporting cod science with which to do it. The money and the volcanic ash seem of the same substance, and that bigoted woman, she did no more than Lear's Fool, Dostoyevsky's 'Idiot' in demonstrating the simple truth, but stating what the executive did not want to hear.
Mr Ball's has a neck! He either shows himself to be merely an opportunist or gutless. Which sword does he fall on? The former, in that he can slip-on a policy as you or I would pull on our ‘kecks’, the latter in that he suggests that someone made him do it, stay silent despite his better judgement. Which vision is the more egregious?"
"Mr Balls,
There are a lot of fact-free statements in your piece, for example:

This is totally contradicted by this:
""UK economic recovery to lag France and Germany, S&P forecasts""
""[S&P] paint a picture of a three-speed recovery with big northern countries gaining the most momentum, southern countries such as Spain and Greece just about clambering out of recession and the UK sandwiched in between.""
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jun/03/uk-economic-recovery-lag-france-germany
Hang on a minute... the UK 'sandwiched in between'? Which translated in non-culinary terms means the UK being a mediocre average if it was inside the Eurozone.
Balls joins the Europhobic theories pointing to the idea that the UK is sooooo lucky it is not in the Eurozone because by being out it can apply its own monetary policy, e.g. devalue its way out of trouble, and come out of the recession first and in the best shape of them all?
The only difference I can see between the 'crisis hit' Eurozone and 'non crisis hit' UK is that the UK's inflation is way above that of the Eurozone.
The other difference is, perhaps, that the UK scrapes a position in the middle of the 'sandwich' only thanks to vast quantities of money printing, e.g. property prices are up by 12% year on year.
Haven't we been here before?

What Directive? The one that you were hell-bent on breaking while in government?
""E-BORDERS"" PROJECT TO DIGITISE IMMIGRATION CONTROL ""WILL BE ILLEGAL IN EU"" SAYS COMMITTEE
http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/home_affairs_committee/091218.cfm

You would appear more honest if you stopped peddling this Blairite, Brownite nonsense. You should just say ""We are nominally in the EU because Uncle Sam wants us to but Britain is nowhere near the heart of Europe as it is the only EU country that has refused to join the two most prominent pillars of European integration, the Eurozone and Schengen (the pillar that guarantees *true* freedom of movement of people inside Europe).""

This is an honest but incomplete assessment. You should openly state that from then on, immigration policies have turned into a farce of tough talk, rings of steel and points based systems that are nothing but a totally misguided and flawed kneejerk reaction to the backlash created by the Eastern European migration. In other words, all the rest of immigrants and the travelling public in general have been made a scapegoat for that 2004 policy, without having any effect whatsoever on how many Eastern Europeans are in the UK or arriving in the future (not that I'm personally bothered with that anyway).
Of course it is now too late to bring any common sense into the matter as the whole British political elite have reversed into a border control fundamentalism group think. Too late as you didn’t listen to common sense advice given to you *before* this populist-fundamentalist group think infected the whole of the political elite:
“48. The Government failed to convince the Committee that systematic border control as currently practised for all arrivals in the United Kingdom, whether from the European Union or elsewhere, is the most effective use of resources to control illegal immigration or is focused on the main sources of illegal immigration.”
""59. We believe that in the three major areas of Schengen—border controls, police co-operation (SIS) and visa/asylum/immigration policy—there is a strong case, in the interests of the United Kingdom and its people, for full United Kingdom participation. Free movement throughout the EEA is a right which all citizens of the United Kingdom should be entitled to enjoy.”
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199899/ldselect/ldeucom/37/3705.htm"
"We fucking know you were! We kept telling you! Just like Iraq and the WMD, you didn't listen. That's why you've been dumped on your arses out of Downing Street.
Ed Balls - at least you got your name right."
"Britain as a whole has done quite nicely thank you due to the immigration from the eastern block. Yes it’s kept the wages down, yes it’s made it harder to get a job and yes it’s made it harder to fine low cost housing.
However and it’s a big however, the availability of cheaper labour has made for a prolonged period of growth in an economy that was in decline prior to the favourable economic migrants. There has been almost 13 years of uninterrupted growth and expansion within the UK’s economy, year on year everyone’s income has more or less increased.
With this in mind what would have happened without the increase in available labour? One thing inflation would have gone through the roof and intern your pay increase would have meant nothing much and the UK would intern not be moving forward.
Examples, Birmingham around 2001-2004 was a building site myself I was a banker within a retail bank and receiving and assisting Polish, Iraqi and Afghan workers opening accounts and paying there wages into them, for a month on the Birmingham building sites they were bringing cheques in to the value of £1800-£2000, thinking that the building trade was massive at this point within the whole of the UK what would these wages have been without the so called cheap foreign workforce?
I like Ed Balls I really do, however I feel that this is “Hi my names Ed too and I did listen, I did make mistakes and I have changed my view. This is New Labour’s evolution, and we know you have real concerns and when I’m the leader I’ll address them.”
However, what is needed is an expanding economy, with an availability of real jobs, decent wages and a place to bring up our children in an affordable place to live. Something the expanding economy has simply forgot about."
"Britain was one of the only three countries in 2004 to give all new EU citizens automatic work rights. But the Home Office’s blunder was based on an estimated figure of up to 13,000 a year to move to the UK. However, in the same year the number has jumped to 600,000. This was happening in a total vacuum and without a managed system in place to ease the pressure on schools, hospitals and our transport, a typical Labour fudge. Labour's mismanagement affected everyone, I am sorry to say that Labour has only managed to create a Satsi Orwellian system.
At the time, the ex- Labour minister, Frank Field said on the EU free labour movement “We foolishly went ahead and had an open-door policy and instead of between 5,000 and 13,000 people arriving, in the first year something like half a million did”. Even the former Home Office Minister John Denham called on the Government to delay full rights for Bulgarians and Romanians, saying the UK needed ""breathing space"" to soak up the last wave. It beggars belief that we are also paying child benefits in their own, EU countries.
Now though, Ed Balls, is drumming up the immigration card to win votes, this is no more than the politics of bankruptcy. Nowadays it is becoming fashion to hear from Labour's senior politicians, we were wrong."
In order to avoid new wars in Europe, it was created EU. Robert Schuman was one of the first politicians that wanted the European union. He meant to eliminate the crisis between France and Germany, which had led to the first and second world war. Other politicians and the US longed EU to decrease Soviet influence into Europe. Nowadays those problems don't exist any more, therefore it's a commercial alliance rather than a political exigency. To what extent is European politics being important for EU member countries? In spite of no real political exigency, EU is influencing the national policy and, what's more, it seems to me those political actions are wrong. Greek working class mayn't pay for absurd economic policy. The European stability pact has been a breakdown, and has increased unemployment and inflation. Sooner or later there will be another country in crisis owing to it. Europe has got to improve its rules. It could do with swelling public investments. The US has done it, and unemployment is lower and lower there. But I'm quite sure the EU won't do it. Instead of dealing with it, all of them will keep doing stupid economic rules.
"Quernston
6 Jun 2010, 12:59PM

The plan is, as soon as our old people become infirm/reached the age where they need looking after, Labour will import loads of young Eastern Europeans to look after them, wipe their arses, cook food, etc. etc. Then, as soon as said elderly people die, the young immigrants will be thanked, paid-off, and sent back home!
Some immigrants, of course, will stay here upon realising its either wipe arses, drive buses, or pick asparagus!"
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 15:7"
"kookboy
`However and it’s a big however, the availability of cheaper labour has made for a prolonged period of growth in an economy that was in decline prior to the favourable economic migrants. There has been almost 13 years of uninterrupted growth and expansion within the UK’s economy, year on year everyone’s income has more or less increased'
Are you the last one left to understand that this was all an illusion, based upon, at the outset, spending every penny in treasury,selling half our gold reserves and then borrowing to the extent that the country is now bankrupt.
Do you still really not understand this?
Balls, Cooper and Brown were the architects of all this, and now he has the brass neck, being bought and paid for by the Unite union to aspire to the Labour leadership.
I for one hope that he achieves his goal which will mean the chance of us ever seeing a Labour government fades into oblivion.
.
`"
"We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain.
That's a understatement if ever I heard one, strange that its only now you are in opposition that you have suddenly seen the light nothing to do with losing I suppose.
The problem is that these EU economic migrants haven't just taken the jobs that brits don't want to do they are taking all the jobs we are quite capable of doing especially those of us in the 55 plus age group.
The only reason the NHS relies on low paid migrant workers is because at the lower levels they pay crap wages and most employees can only make a decent living with extra hours ( before the comments come I did NHS payroll ).
As for letting Turkey into the EU do you honestly think that we believe you when you say you would restrict the numbers coming into our country. Thats easy for you to say now but after the last debacle when millions came in when you knew that unemployment was much larger than your fudged figures admitted. If you had retained power I doubt we would be reading any of this as you would still be living in your socialist fairy land and we could expect millions of Turks coming into our country while you told us it was good for the economy."
Rubbish - immigration did not lose the Labour Party the election. A confused and faulty line on the economy was (and remains) the problem. Before the 2010 budget, Labour laid out a clear Tory cuts versus Labour investment message. This closed a 14 point Tory lead. Following this years budget and Darling's foolish declaration of "cuts as deep as Thatcher", this positive trend was reversed.
God, I wish his wife were running......
Yes. Good.
"Hm Ed, going for the working class vote are ye? Youre base in the north? Daily mirror readers?
Thars sure how it sounds to me...
""in communities ill-prepared to deal with the reality of globalisation, including the one I represent.""
Not youre fault was it Ed? Just happened, just like the financial crisis? Who couldve known??"
"_AT_Bakersfield 6 Jun 2010, 12:19PM

We did. Years ago. Poverty is hungry kids. Poverty is barefoot kids - as I saw in Ireland in the 70s. Poverty is kids not going to school.
I was born in 1951. My dad worked hard running a small business, and we were on a post-war boomer estate with everyone the same. We were quite well off, but most had no TV, half of us had cars, and none of us went abroad for our holidays.
There is no poverty in the UK - except the poverty of your bankrupt ""ideology"" or bigotry.
Next?"
it wasn't just Eastern Europeans who came in droves. It seems like half of Nigeria has moved here too. When I last looked Nigeria wasn't in Europe, so that excuse doesn't wash. Not as if they are doing skilled jobs either, mostly cleaners or security guards. Filling the jobs that 13 years of Labour education policies have failed to educate the indiginous population for.
Right sentiment, but too late! The damage has been done and I do not believe the present incumbents have the will or desire to 'rock the boat'. No point any party burying heads in the sand, immigration is a nettle that must be grabbed. You will allow the BNP and other facist organisations to gain footholds if you do not listen to what the majority of the British people want.
Too late, blame the opposition party like the Liebour Party always do.
"_AT_ Burgau205
I completely understand what has happened and I realise some policies on spending were incorrect, however If you read the whole statement you will see I actually think this statement and interview with Ed is indeed a bit of spin.
With regards to us being bankrupt, I think that we're close to 800 billion in debt however what assets do we have for these debts? We pretty much own the entire banking sector, this will be sold on and the real debt not just the deficit will be cut, it’s the total that needs to come down. Just like a household if you get in debt you have a few ways to get yourself out of it, tighten your belts or sell some assets, as soon as the crisis is over there will be a sale of the banking sector, this was the plan after all.
Massive cuts to the public sector isn’t just a magic wand that takes all the waste away, think about the human cost and if that doesn’t fire any neurons, think about the extended cost of getting rid of public sector workers on a large scale quickly. Much like the touted selling of gold announcement by Brown, gold is a commodity much the same as labour, already in Warwickshire there has been 1000 redundancies from the public sector, within Warwickshire the public sector pay is generally slightly higher than the private sector. Meaning they are standing on there own feet. 1000 skilled office workers going in a town of less than 100000, will have an effect on the rates of pay offered (the average will be close to minimum wage already) so intern this will increase tax credits and housing benefit, E.g. myself and my partner before the banking crisis pulled in close to £60k now we are on minimum wage and getting 50% of our income from benefits. So instead of being a net contributor we’re net consumers.
Lets face it, the condems have got there sums wrong as labour did. Yes there needs to be the eradication of waste, also there needs to be the cash spent on the right things, the things to get the UK moving."
"Labour considered the working class, exemplified by Mrs Duffy, as bigoted, but they were happy enough to recruit lads from areas of high unemployment into the army to serve as IED fodder in their evil wars.
Outside the ""Country Girl"" pub near Selly Oak yesterday I saw a young soldier in a wheelchair - his right leg had been reduced to a short white bandaged stump, he had arm damage and he was talking in a stange hoarse whisper to his parent, who was pushing the wheelchair, . I guess he was ""luckier"" than the unfortunate lad I saw a couple of weeks previously who had lost both legs.
These were terrible sights
Truly with a track record like Nulab's a Japanese politician would be contemplating an honourable course. Balls otoh wants to be Prime Minister."
"Born in Brighton? Then you can work in London.
Born in Leeds? Then you can work in London.
Born in Paris? Then you can't work in London. Although, of course, if you're a 21 year old French fashion model, you can work in London if the shoot requires it. If the Spanish art director has ordered it.
This is the system we want, really. Unfortunately, no government in the world (apart from North Korea) seems able to give us what we want.
We want the right to move while denying others the same right.
As a Londoner, I have no right to stop someone from Brighton commuting into London each day and taking ""my job"" but I'm meant to be all upset and vote BNP if a bloke from Paris does the exact same thing as the bloke from Brighton."
"ED Balls you are obviously desperate , to now complain about the New Europeans
Biggot! not just that but , sadly you represent failed politicans who overstayed & did not deliver.
You like Dedwood should all be defeated
IF Labour is truly to have a chance otherwise,
we need to talk about a new Third Party !
Maybe the Greens , everything has to start with 1 !
Balls you shoudl liek Laws leave the House as you do not offer New Politics anything , except probable bitterness
David Milliband on Marr today was also a dispointment- and did nto look liek a Future PM--
Tristram Hunt should eb considerd -
not just because he is young 35 but when Labour , might have a part to play,
in 5 years he will be right age 40
T R I STR A M H U N T"
Oh cheers Mr Balls ! Thanks very much for your wise words on this topic ! Any chance you might also recant on the topic of academies ? Here in Northampton, our rapidly improving school , Unity College , is to be turned into an Academy ! Needless to say, the parents , staff and students are dead against this ! So what say you Balls ? Stop David Ross taking over our school ! Keep our headteacher ! keep our uniform ! Keep our name !
"kookboy
Thank you.
Very well considered post.
The problem is that the structural deficit they talk about ignores the funded and unfunded pensions black hole which if included expands the total deficit to between £1.5 to £2.0 trillion.
This black hole is a total commitment which cannot be dodged so the total deficit renders the country bankrupt by any normal definition.
Brown, Balls and Cooper have completely ignored the pensions black hole because they rightly assume that the populous does not understand the dire implications on us and especially on our children..
They are beyond contempt.
I had the good fortune to discuss the egregious pensions grab which destroyed UK final salary schemes with Cameron, albeit briefly, some months ago.
He surprised me by his knowledge of the subject and of the individual figures involved. When I asked him if his policy was to turn this ignominious situation around, his response was that he would certainly do this if it were possible but `there is just no money'.
Here we have Balls touting for business again, and even worse, we have people supporting him who do not have the first understanding of the magnitude of the damage this terrible man has caused.
According to the Spectator (I think it was) the pensions tax grab was Balls' idea.
On hearing of this, one of our most respected pensions specialists, begged him to relent but apparently Balls had tin ears.
He has much to pay for."
Go Enoch!... I mean Ed!
"Perhaps a solution would be that at an early age all citizens of Europe sign a contract promising never to move from their zone and knowing that if they break the contract they will do life in prison.
So, for example, someone born in Hull would be unable to take that job in France or America or Chichester and, indeed, would be legally bound to spend their entire life in Hull.
Unworkable?
You mean that regardless of who we vote for, immigration and emigration, illegal migration and internal movement are going to be a part of life and the human experience along with sex, television, books, computers and alcohol?
It's quite possible that at points in the future there will even be much more movements of peoples than today? Yes, that's actually quite likely.
Just because some humans lived through the second world war doesn't mean they experienced the very pinnacle of human evil. It's quite possible that on a long enough time line, something far, far, far worse will happen.
As with a ""golden age"" - it is likely that human beings have not experienced the""golden age"" yet - it being something that will happen in the future before it too passes into history, for future generations to lament.
Doesn't really matter who you vote for, Tory, Labour or BNP - teenagers will keep having sex. In the future it's quite possible technology will make both STDs and unwanted pregnancies very rare things indeed thus leading to an absolutely massive increase in human sexual activity of all kinds. 400 years from now a new ""golden age"" of sex will be taking place and will last for 290 years before that terrible war kills off much of humanity...
Whatever the future holds for us we know that life will change in countless ways. Doesn't matter who you vote for."
"stealthbong

Why spoil a good argument with a short list.
ID cards, the DNA database, the third runway, stop and search (= banning photography), academy schools...
There are many more. If Labour had shown some humble pie before the election, some willingness to backtrack when, clearly, these policies enjoyed no popular support, they might even still be in office.
It's just whining for Balls to say ""OK, give us another go"".
Labour need a leader willing to tear everything up and start over - much as Blair did with clause 4.
None of the current leadership candidates will do that. So it's goodbye from them..."
"_AT_Burgau205
With regards to the scale of missing funds I do believe that a more radical approach of finding new taxes and items to be taxed will eventually bring about the paying of our structural deficit. As well as the modest amount of growth that I dare say will happen over the next few years as long as the cuts now aren't too savage.
I would like to see some urgency within the creation of the Tobin style tax however I dare say this will wait until after the sale of the banks to maximise the sale value.
All said it truly is an exciting time but one full of pit falls and a great one to debate."
"steve hill
I have an existential fear that when the economies really bite hard, ssay in about four years time, the populous will be so angry that they re-elect Balls and his friends.
In my worst nightmares, (including the one where I can't find my car and my teeth are falling out) this comes about."
"_AT_CorneliusLysergic
For one thing I don't consider being better off than 50s Ireland as progress.
And the UK still has severe problems with poverty:
http://tinyurl.com/346zgz3
1.6 million children in Britain live in housing that is overcrowded, temporary, or run-down. Some live in housing that’s making them ill. Many are missing out on a decent education. Others suffer chronic insecurity, shuffled from place to place in ‘temporary accommodation’.
I'm not saying we aren't better off than many countries. That obviously isn't the case. My point is is that we are not as rich as we are supposed to be and that in actual fact successive UK govts had no right to flood us with immigrants to compete for vital resources when there was still so much poverty here. By this I mean immigrants were a very useful immoral tool with which Govts and their Employer friends could stop any proper redistribution of income in this country. And beyond that there simply was no mandate by the British people for mass immigration. This principle is just as important as anything else involved in this debate."
"It's largely a question of attitude and ethical axioms. Is it the job of an MP to make the world a fairer place or to act to benefit the citizens who elected them? We need MPs who are prepared to stand up for the interests of UK citizens EVEN WHEN it makes the world as a whole a less fair place.
Nationalism has been unfairly demonised when it is at the bedrock of a democratic society. Of course extreme nationalism is bad, but so is extreme socialism or extreme environmentalism or even extreme altruism or extreme anything. Life and politics is about balancing competing interests in a proper manner. MPs are not elected to become rulers of the world but of a country, whose citizens have interests specific to them which must be represented at that national level, and cannot be left unrepresented, or the balance is destroyed. Just as I guess that if the welfare state was entirely abolished communists would rush in to fill the vacuum a complete abandonment of nationalism can only lead to such as the BNP gaining ground, which is what we have seen. The rise of the BNP can be traced to the mindsets and prejudices learnt by politicians in universities in the 70s and 80s that nationalism is some kind of evil in every regard that will whither away in time and is synonymous with concentration camps, and the erroneous decisions such mindsets led to.
One of the greatest problems now is that we have seen so many mainstream politicians say one thing and do another, or do things without telling us their real motives, prominent amongst those things Labour and immigration*, that we cannot really know what it is they are actually selling, and hence whether we want to buy it.
*http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
A faulty immigration policy might have been forgivable, but deceiving your employers, us, about what you were up to, presumably to ""make the world a better place"" and treating us as if we don't really know what's good for us, is unforgivable. Not to get too tin foil / Bilderberg conspiracy, but there really are very rich people out there who want globalism and complete free flow of labour and want to bend national governments to their will. It is the job of elected politicians to protect our interests from their considerable power, and that often involves choosing between what is good for this country and what is good for the world and choosing the former."
"kookboy
Indeed, but I am of the school which believes that tax increases slow growth and exacerbates unemployment.
It was Canada and Australia which both avoided big recessions by cutting taxes and cutting public expenditure.
Brown and his bunch of chancers could not do this because they were engulfed in a cloud of discredited socialist dogma, even though they stopped using the S word.
Cameron believes in low taxes and low public expenditure but I expect to see higher VAT since to an extent this tax, like IHT is voluntary
we will also see higher rates of inflation for a time I fear and all governments hate inflation."
"I admit it... I haven't read any further than this line.
Agencies, many of them based in Ireland but allegedly Polish in origin, were on standby waiting for the UK's policy to immigrant workers regarding the EU's Eastern European members.
They were aware that several member states intended to protect local economies by ensuring that jobs had to be advertised prominently at the appropriate employment agency for the going rate.
If there were no takers for the position, then any immigrant worker had to be paid the going rate and properly housed.... not on site or adjacent sites.
Oddly enough, where these measures were enforced, they did not see pockets of mass immigration.
These EU guidelines were not implemented here in the UK.
It is worth remembering that many of these immigrant workers were exploited and once deductions were removed from their pay, they found themselves working 10 hrs a day on a 6 day week for just over 2 an hour. There was of course no appropriate agency in the UK to deal with this exploitation even if those they were contracted to had close ties with the local, district and county councils.
From were I stood, the governments' failure wasn't the immigration policy, regardless of ""no more boom and bust"" it was the legacy of several decades of the boom and bust mentality and a trickle down approach.
It was the lack of investment in skills, the failure to protect local jobs and a decent wage when skills or training were available.
There is no single government agency to defend the basic rights of exploited immigrants working in this country and with the Workfare (New Labour policy) coming into its own, this is likely to remain the case.
Personally, I don't see New Labour's failure to control the flood of cheap skills into the labour market as lack of joined up thinking... rather I see it as their prelude to a liberalised, devalued wage-wedge."
Told yu fucking so
"Having written his piece I don't imagine Mr Balls will look at this thread for a second. He is practising (as career politicians do) getting the emotional mood and tone right for speeches he might make in his campaign.
The thread proves 1 point more than any other. If you say/write anything that is even vaguely critical about the policy of ongoing mass immigration then middle class people willl assume you are an ingrained racist and some will actually vocalise with varying degrees of antipathy ranging from mild distaste to furious abuse. This is a class phenomenon. Poorer Brits are more inclined to listen although those who hang on to the old internationalist constellation of 'Left' policies cannot allow themselves to even hear such stuff.
Mr Balls is practising talking to 'his people'. Good luck to him. The immigration topic needs to be raised constantly at every level if it is to become a fit topic for calm debate, especially amongst opinion formers.
It is quite possible that the EU will collapse. Nobody knows. It was blazingly obvious that it expanded too quickly at American and Big Business prompting. The other big issue (apart from immigration) for Labour is to accept and promote PR. It's fairer, everyone gets a say and what is more everyone can feel that their vote has counted in some way. Mr Balls is not likely to win his contest but the more mainstream politicians who recognise the opposition to mass immigration the better."
"All that Balls is now suggesting is restricting migrants from Romania and Bulgaria, who are very few anyway. It will make no practical difference to the wages of the low-paid, so he is simply pandering to the BNP vote.
But I'd like to go back to the euro debate, because it seems to be assumed without question that the UK was right to stay out of the single currency. What nobody seems to realise is that, if the UK had joined, it would have been the second-biggest economy in the euro area, with a major influence on ECB policy. Not just interest rates but, more important in view of the current crisis, on the enforcement of the rules which should have prevented the lax policies of Greece and other countries. In other words, if the UK had joined, the current crisis in the eurozone would have been much less likely to happen."
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"_AT_tomedinburgh

and is therefore, in and of itself, racist."
"low skills are not the most important criteria for am immigrant - low aspirations are.
Which group attended night classes, became successfully employed - and as an absolute decider - whose children gained the highest qualifications.
Studies should easily show what immigrants end up a positive - and policy should be driven by that."
"Ed... your party had over 13 years to prove it wasn't just another middle class right wing party.
Your party punished the unemployed and drove wages down to suit your city friends.
Game over. Hurry up and die Labour."
EvaWitt Thanks :) Wish the site had an edit function - wrote it with such speed, bit embarrassed at some of the typos.
Why are we demonizing Eastern Europeans they have right to be here? What about the Immigrant from outside the EU. Some of the immigrant came here to make their life safe and progressive, but in the process our lives have been blighted by very high crime rate, murder etc. Why can’t we send those criminal element back, now even some refugees and asylum seekers has joined the foray. No immigrants’, refugees, asylum seekers should be entiled to any benefit or nationality till they have lived in this country legally for more then 10 years?
I realise that my views are not very common with other CiF contributers but it does warm the cockles to know that the overwhelming majority of repsonses on this thread are anti Mr Balls.
"The problem is that people are seeing immigrants as the problem with housing and facilities and low wages.
Yet it is Labour's neglect of social housing and merry encouragement of house prices spiralling out of control that is at fault. It is Labour's backing of agency middlemen taking a fat cut of workers salaries, and Labour's delay in fixing local authority grants to population increases that are the cause of the problems.
And Ball's has shown no sign whatsoever of realizing that it was those policies, and not immigration, that have been creating the problems."
I hadn't noticed most problems in England were caused by immigrants from the East of Europe.I stupidly thought they were caused by other immigrants!
I won't comment on the immigration issue directly, but as regards the test for immigrants to speak English: how about first making sure first that the English speak it correctly? How often, for instance, have all of us seen the word "Their" (as in belonging to them) spelled as "There" and vice versa? I have even seen this from writers in computer and astronomical magazines!!
I agree! And they should all be deported well within the 10 year period, if they have nothing to offer us, but financial liabilities.
"_AT_thfc123

Though some of us are anti-Balls because he speaks too much bollocks, some of us are anti-Balls because he doesn't speak enough bollocks.
_AT_jalte

You stupidly think ""most problems in England"" are caused by immigrants.
""Most"" problems - really?
Sure there are issues, but blaming immigrants for everything isn't going to address the real issues is it?"
"Woo, populism. That'll get some support for a week or so. Like someone said, maybe you should have mentioned paedophiles, or how the eatern Europeans are cooking Her Maj's swans or something to really seal the deal.

That's kinda backward though, what you're essentially saying, to slice it another way, is that it's ok for Brits to move abroad in search of higher wages, but it's not ok for people from countries with a lower average wage to do the same thing? I know we like to think of ourselves as some special bastion of enlightenment, but from the outside looking in it just seems like a mixture of racism and belief in the inherent superiority of the great mythical indigenous British population.
Please, just go away. If you win on this platform I shall be asking for my party membership money back."
"How the high and mighty chane their colours to suit.
Has the man no shame he was one of those who allowed immigration to get out of control, now when it suits him he changes his opinion to suit.
With a bit of luck we hopefully will see the last of him when the leadership election finishes.
The man is a complete p***"
"I've just come back from holiday in Crete - the resort of Malia to be precise.
Almost all the locals speak English and there are British people working all over the village. The young Brits are holiday reps, tour guides, restaurant staff and shop assistants. Some older British people also live in work in the area. The British influence on the village was so strong that all of the restaurants on the main strip offered diners an English breakfast and you could watch only Fools and Horses on big screens all over the place.
Now, it might be that in Brussels, Paris or Munich, most British immigrants are working in higher-paid jobs. I honestly don't know. However, in Malia, most British immigrants were doing the jobs that Greek youth could have done quite easily. The influence of tourism on the economy of Malia and the benefits that British tourists bring cannot be understated but please let's put paid to this ridiculous notion that only Eastern Europeans or people from other countries travel to the UK for work. There are plenty of people moving in the opposite direction and wherever they go and work, they take local people's jobs."
Try and get benefits if you have been living abroad. You'll find them routinely refused. You can't pop over from another EU country and just claim benefits.
"A special tax should be levied on all middle class smug guardian types to pay for all the benefits given to immigrants.
Even those that do work, do low paid jobs. Don't try to tell me that such wages give them enough money to get accommodation and raise a family. We the tax payer have been paying for their upkeep.
Those who caused the mess should pay. Plus being so right thinking and moral, they don't believe in private property, so they won't mind losing theirs."
"Well there was a time when the territory now known as Turkey was firmly within the Mediterranean mainstream and Constantinople (as the city was then known) was the Rome of the East (as the capital of the Greek Empire). The Turks may originate from Northern and Central Asia, but then the Slavs, the Celts and the Germans also originate from areas of Asia ranging from the Urals to the Middle East. The original human population of Europe was the Neanderthals. Any population with an Indo-European language developed it while they lived within a broad arc stretching from Quetta to Tashkent and Tehran.
It's a good idea to know something about the subject before you post. Failing that, consult the University of Wikipedia or better still, read a book."
When you see the NHS begin to contract, local authority social services go into decline, the winter fuel allowance abolished and the retirement age begin to approach 75 you'll see that whoever is in power the problem you refer to will soon be a problem no more.
"Joinupsignin
Why can you not say in The Guardian that excessive immigration from asian is wrong for Britain.
Its not racist, its an opinion, shared by a great many people who are getting angry that in this country and on this site people cannot express this political view.
Evidently you can express your view on this site regardless of how ignorant or ineloquent or right wing you or they are.
Asian: 1. of or relating to Asia or to any of its peoples or languages 2. A native or inhabitant of Asia or a descendant of one.
Asia: The largest of the continents, bordering on the Arctic Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the Indian Ocean and the Meditaranean and red seas in the west...
Be careful about making one of those 'shouldn't be here if they can't speak the language' schpeels. BNP might get in and stick you on the first boat back to Asian."
"And so speaks Mr Know it all.
But you seem to have left out that even in Early Roman times the East was considered to be different from the West. The men were considered to be effeminate unlike the hardy boys in the West.
In any case there were strong cultural ties between east and west when the Romans and Greeks were in charge of what is now Turkey. But then the same could be said about Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Arabia. I suppose they are part of Europe too, according to your bien pensant logic?"
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"Maggie was wrong on so many things, but she once said, ""The problem with socialists is that they eventually run out of other people's money"". You dropped the socialism, proclaimed the end of boom and bust and STILL ran out of taxpayers' money. That's your greatest achievement.
The rapidly looming cutbacks, mounting unemployment, reductions in benefits and destruction of our educational institutions aren't just the fault of the Tories, or even the Tories and Libdems- if they were they would happen in at least 2-3 years, not right now. So should we extend your advice to the whole of Europe? Would they accept it?"
"A 2007 article from the Independent* by Jack Dromey:
* http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/jack-dromey-immigration-has-made-britain-a-better-place-400113.html


* http://www.opsi.gov.uk/sr/sr2010/nisr_20100162_en_1
** http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6734153.ece
*** http://www.freelancesupermarket.com/news/2010/5/24/recruiters-to-discuss-agency-workers-regulations.aspx"
"There were 2 factors that made me realise I could no longer support Labour.
1. Ministers expected 13,000 east Europeans would come to the UK per year. I knew that was wrong. Around 1,000,000 have come. Absurdly bad judgement.
2. Eighty per cent of new jobs in the UK since 1997 have gone to foreign workers, as John Humphreys pointed out to me one morning.
I find these numbers frightening. A significant part of my head supports UKIP."
"New Labour, that useless populist blob of soundbites and Murdoch fags, appears to have decided that they lost the election because they weren't tough enough on immigrants/asylums seekers and benefit cliamants. This despite their utilisation of latter-day concentration camps and the iniquitous Welfare Reform Bill.
The day these twats return to power will be a day too early."
"Scanning through the comments I see a sprinkling of ""aging population"" labor shortage"" type arguments. These were thrown around freely a few years ago to justify importing labor -- ""do the jobs that xxx are not prepared to do"", that sort of thing.
You can't talk about ""aging population"" and ""raising retirement age"" in the same breath.
I think the key to this was accidentally mentioned by another poster who said that ""you can't allow free immigration to a country with extensive social benefits from countries where there are none"" or words to that effect. Stands to reason, you'll overload the system - unless your real plan is to destroy the social benefits, in which case a crisis brought on by overload and insolvency is just what you need. (..and judging from your government's statements, just what you're going to get)."
"FFS CiF posters are you all as thick as Ed Balls seems to be.
It's got nothing to so with Labour, new or otherwise, Ed Balls, Colemanballs, Footballs or Loadaballs how many Poles etc come into the UK to work. They are allowed to because we -- and they -- are in the EU. If you wanna introduce quotas on emplyoees coming into the UK then we're gonna have to leave the EU in order to do so. It's the (EU) law, stupid!"
"Turkey should NOT join the EU until they get rid of their law against 'insulting Turkishness' which means that you get thrown in prison for mentioning the Armenian Genocide, which they should also recognise before they are allowed in. In addition to other human rights abuses in that country.
But then I also abhore the fact that Latvia and Estonia were allowed in, considering their treatment of ethnic Russians living there, or the Czech Republic, as Romany people from there have been able to successfully claim asylum in Canada - how can a country in the EU be a place that refugees need to flee from?"
"Here's a little fact that xenophobes such as Mr Balls deliberately ignore: EU citizens from Central/Eastern Europe are NOT ""immigrants"". As EU citizens they are entitled to live anywhere they want in the EU, just as Brits. Yes, there are restrictions for Romanians and Bulgarians, but that has to do purely with pandering to the Daily Mail crowd rather than with any serious economic reasons; the restrictions only favor undeclared work and tax evasion.
Now Mr Balls wants to make the discrimination against Romanians and Bulgarians permanent, and has the brazenness to call it an ""open and fair world"". His ""open and fair' world involves, as he explicitly put it, free movement of capital but not of labour, and a two-tier EU where Eastern Europeans would have second-class status.
It's sad that extreme chauvinism has crossed over from BNP/UKIP to the British mainstream, and that the Guardian would host such a piece of xenophobic trash. It seems that Eastern Europeans have become the perfect target for discrimination, scapegoating and racist hysteria in Western Europe. After all, they can't vote, they don't riot or blow themselves up if faced with harassment or discrimination, and they're technically ""white"", so xenophobes can always say ""they're white, so I'm not racist"", plus it's socially acceptable for non-white Brits to express racist sentiments against Eastern Europeans (as evidenced by some, thankfully isolated, comments here)."
Auf Wiedersehen, pet! anyone? Was based on fact you know: Brits doing low-paid labouring jobs in another EU country
A few went. I don't think it was 900,000.
"Bien pensant? Have you ever read what I used to write on the subject of fundamentalist Islam and jihadism and more recently, on the difficulties that poorly- regulated multiculturalism presents to all of us? You call me ""Mr Know it all"" then agree with my point in the sentence beginning ""In any case"". I don't argue that the Turks themselves are European as much as that the Europeans come from Asia (and ultimately, from Africa)- just a different area than the Turks. We didn't spring forth one day from the loins of Japheth as the Bible would have you believe.
Iraq and Arabia have always been more remote from Europe than ""Asia Minor"", Islam or no Islam, Byzantine Empire or not. That's because of geography. As for Syria, for obvious reasons such as its remoteness, desert location and proximity to Mesopotamia, it wasn't Hellenized to the same extent as Asia Minor. Mesopotamia was the centre of an empire in its time as great as Persia or the Moguls. The Greeks considered the Romans squabbling barbarians, while the Romans envied the Greeks for their cultural advancement and book learning. The Romans were also much keener on plain facts than understanding the whole of the subject and their Emperors were mostly perverts, proto-Hitlers or far more interested in being generals than rulers."
"The idiocy of this piece by Balls, is only matched by the idiocy as demonstrated by a large amount of posters.
Its pretty clear going by the comments most voted for, that the majority of CIF posters possess the 'i'm alright jack' mentality, akin to that of Dailey Mail readers. The joys of hipocrisy.
It's rather ironic that the position taken by most posters, is just as Neo-con as the policies as pursued by our former New Labour Government.
When Brown said 'British jobs for British workers', what he really should have said was 'Middle Class jobs for Middle Class workers'. This is the fact of the matter.
Given the Tories plans for education, most posters can sleep happily in the knowledge that their professions will remain as socially exclusive as ever. Everyone else can continue in their enforced economic race to the bottom."
Shame you didn't have this revelation in government. Funny that.
Perhaps some of the so called 'progressives' on here can explain exactly why they believe controlling immigration is a bad thing? I just cannot understand how global or domestic 'progress' is served by shipping millions of people across the world
bifacedog, as I said earlier, EU citizens are not "immigrants". I guess this needs to be repeated over and over again.
"_AT_northerner ""workforce (what a fantastic Derby winner, by the way!) ""
Absolut, gammle gosse!
Sorry about the Swedish - as it's an immigration thread, I thought I'd strike first and avoid the ""kleine Englander"" taunt."
"Yeah, British jobs for British people... kick those cherry pickers, asparagus and potatoe gatheres and bring back the good auld Brit oxbridge grad to do those seek after jobs.
Actually i understand any polish or chinese burger patty fliping immigrant better then any cockey ladden eastsider.
and i don t mind my plumber to be incapable or late as long he speaks at least scouse in its purest beautyful fashion"
"Really disappointing to see Labour lurch further to the right. Does Balls really think if they had been more like the Tories they’d have won? Their supporters would not have deserted them if they had had the Balls to stand by their principles and said ‘immigration benefits Britain’
Labour could be such a force if they just weren’t so spineless"
I'm confused. When America tries to control the decades long flood of unskilled immigrants into its country its racism incarnate. However, when the British do it, its some kind of appropriate response to ensure the protection of Britain's most vulnerable citizens. How much larger is the EU's population in comparison to the USA? How much larger is the population of Mexico in comparison to the members of the EU? Answer: only Deutschland has a larger population than Mexico's. Putting Mexico aside and its positional privilege, what about the rest of the planet's countries that dump their populations on the USA? Why does the USA have more Jamaican illegal immigrants than Britain has legal ones? It's your frickin' colony. Bullocks, Mr. Balls. This is nothing but an attempt to ensure that Britain never becomes as dark as America is today.
"Awful ignorance for somebody aiming at leading to the Labour Party.
1) 'next year when Germany and France lift their restrictions': France has lifted them in 2008! Only Austria and Germany still apply restrictions, until the deadline of next year - but instead of avoiding immigration, they have been flooded by bogus self-employed and posted workers from eastern european companies - something which is socially much more disruptive than legal, regular immigration.
2) WHere's the evidence for negative effects on wages or living conditions? Could you please mention one, at least one figure or study??? Immigrants (85% of whom are young, fit and in employment) from eastern europe pay in in tax much more then they take out in benefits or any public service.
3) How about policies? the only way to prevent negative effects in wages is strengthening collective bargaining, worker rights, and tackling dodgy work agencies. Don't blame the migrants for the policy failures of New Labour.
Really depressing."
"Yes - you messed it up! Under Labour, thousands were deported to their deaths. Children were imprisoned. Hundreds of thousands worked for a pittance. Above all you failed to explain and defend. You played to the gallery and failed to harness the massive amount of goodwill there is in the country. You failed to engage those who were trapped in the benefit system and would not work thereby creating opportunities for others to work. You wanted the cheap labour and profited from it but were not willing to shoulder your responsibilities for the advantages.
If it was such a mistake for Eastern Europeans to come why are you not shouting about Spanish, Irish, Portuguese and Greek immigration which is happening now as a result of the crisis in the Euro-zone?
You need to face up to one basic fact. Someone coming here from an EU state is a citizen exerting their right not a migrant. That means the Brits in France and Spain in retirement and those making a packet in the German construction industry are also Citizens exerting their rights. Why don't you ever say that Brits abroad send more back in remittances than migrants working in the UK.
Wake up and be honest about immigration and don't slide further into your intellectual bunker on this subject."
"_AT_Bakersfield 6 Jun 2010, 2:54PM
Absolutley agree on the immigration side. On poverty, I believe we have all we need in thic country for no family to be ""poor"" as you note above; where it does happen is down to crap local services &/or families who don't give a fuck.
My ex worked in the DWP in Bristol, serving Southmead & Lawrence Weston; when she left, the third generation in familes that had not, would not, COULD not work were just signing on.
Poor by choice. Even then, all those you mention above will have TVs, and often a car.
I rest by what I stated. And what a damning condemnation of Labour the figure you note is."
"Whomever you were responding to SZ, I suspect that they either don't know, don't care or have chosen to ignore the localised immigration policies* that are specifically constructed and applied to those at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale while the complex problems regarding the exploitation of immigration as a source of cheap labour and the impact on the economy, remain unattended.
* http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/ewco/studies/tn0807038s/de0807039q.htm"
"If I wanted a Tory policy of dog-whistles on immigration and petty-nationalist grandstanding on Europe, I would vote Tory.
I don't vote Tory."
"stevejones

Deliberate policy. Personal debt which was ramped up to an extraordinary extent now exceeds GDP, the overwhelming majority of that personal debt relates to mortgage loan.
Without a severe housing shortage(made worse by immigration) then how could Nulab's grisly spiv mates in the City have scammed the population as comprehensively as they did?
In any event, as Cleggie said the other day, Nulab's belated ""promises"" made when they came under pressure over housing were made with no budgets attached; completely worthless"
"Lets see you (Ed Balls) drive a bus, pick asparagus, or wipe an elderly persons arse for a living!
How would you like it if these were the only kinds of jobs available to you, just as they are to Eastern Europeans?"
Yeah but Ed, those East european birds are well fit - I for one welome them with open arms.
"ariksilverman

If it means having to put up with the 'expats' (why cant the call themselves what they are, immigrants) again this would be a bad idea. I'd much rather have the Poles living near me than those cretins."
"hugsandpuppies
6 Jun 2010, 5:51PM

They're ok, but they've got flat bums though!
(the majority anyway)"
"_AT_ Burgau205
Thanks for the patronizing response, but unless you can refute what Ros Altmann says here, don't bother."
"I recently checked the housing list of people applying for housing or a transfer.
Every flat or house vacant had at least 300 applicants.
So housing shortage is back as critical as it was in the 80's.
Then we have approx 2.5 million unemployed.
So how can we encourage mass immigration with no jobs or homes to offer?"
"only ... BNP supporters ...deny that our ...IT industries depend on immigration" ... .... *BALLS* !!!!!! There are thousands of British comp-sci grads who are out of work because they have been displaced by cheap "onshorers" from India, and the primary reason to bring in boatloads of onshorers is to subvert British employment law! This is ILLEGAL, widely recognized by anyone in IT, and has nothing to do with the BNP. Recently, British comp-sci grads were dead last in their chances of finding a decent job upon graduation. In technical skills, our grads are the best anywhere - but they are replaced by onshorers simply to illegally get around U.K. employment law.
"Hell's Teeth. This sort of racism got people thrown out of the Labour Party once upon a time, not it's a platform to stand as leader.
Never been happier to not be a member these days."
"_AT_Chadwick88

The last acceptable form of bigotry?
You could at least make a polite effort to conceal your irrational hatred by sticking the word some in front of the word Islamic. Trust me, that's the way to tap into the petty bourgeois support base your ilk so desperately crave - they prefer there racism sugar-coated a little."
"true that Germany didn t lift their ban just now but they got flodded by immigrants way earlier then britain an d there even is a dishonoured former german advocat which resides now in poland in order to hand out passports to polish folks.
If u re able to proof u re of German ancestry (most of the polish in western poland are anyways since this part was german/prussian till after war) u re entitled to get a german passport and move to germany take up work without a word german and gain access to social welfare. Nice thing me thinks"
"LinearBandKeramik
6 Jun 2010, 6:41PM

I wouldn't say it was bigotry, as the first two points are pretty much fact.
As for the point about 'participating in the economy', well that is debatable, as simply by being here, it's impossible not to be interlocked with the economy."
"I would really like Balls to explain how a peripheral islet off the shores of Europe could possibly construed in anyone's mind as ""heart of Europe"".
If Britain were really to be its heart, Europe -- which stretches all the way to Kazakhstan -- would have to include Canada all the way to Toronto at the very least."
"According to a report from the UCL in March 2007 ""Immigration to the UK has made a positive contribution to the average wage increase experienced by non-immigrant workers"", which is pretty brilliant. Prof. Christian Dustmann of UCL’s Department of Economics said: “Economic theory shows us that immigration can provide a net boost to wages if there is a difference in the skills offered by native and immigrant workers."" So far, so good. A very positive report. But, oh dear, what's this ""However, across the whole spectrum of wages it is impossible for everybody to benefit. Some workers will see a gain, others a loss.” Oh, shit. The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay
Maybe those unskilled, low-paid workers could form a political party to campaign for their rights. As they are engaged in manual labour they could call it the...erm. What should we call this party?
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration"
Shame on you, blaming them foreigners for all our problems. Lazy, lazy, lazy, lzy bigot. If you're elected labour leader, I absolutely will not be voting labour, I am sick of hearing about immigration, and was relieved that it didn't seem to be a big election issue. Go away.
"Was it not a deliberate policy to flood our country with immigrants for future vote bank?
Have you addressed the issue about non EEC immigration? You were part of a government which knew perfectly well as far back as 2003 that the so called Highly Skilled Migrants were carrying out jobs such as mini cab drivers, filling shelfs in Tesco, Sainsburys etc.Wroking in factories. Is this saying something for education policies of successive governments (of both colours) that we as a country could not produce individuals who could fill sheves in Tescos, drive minicabs and work on assesmbly lines. Is this your definition of 'higly skilled'?
Ah your government has also know that 'students' comer over to study courses in colleges that are not equiped to teach, even if these 'colleges' could teach the students cannot understand or speak English. In which langiage were the stidents being thaught? The pervious government has openly admitted that 55 year old grand mothers have been granted student visas to study''MBA'!
One could go on and on! Enough said"
I have been of the opinion for years that it is utterly wrong to allow people to stream into Britain unchecked - in other countries such as Switzerland, foreigners if unskilled used to only be able to apply for short term work permits and those who did have a skill got longer term permits but.... these people had to abide by the law of the land. In Britain it seems that the incomers do not need to change - in fact the British are more like the second class citizens. I doubt whether the top 5% are affected by the mass influx, they are not in the same dog fight for jobs and accommodation. I am utterly sick and tired of going to my local supermarket and hearing more Eastern European tongues than Engllish, I find it sad that workers are being imported to work in these supermarkets (surely we have enough home grown candidates), I am fed up of hearing these foreigners say our health service here is free (maybe I have just imagined paying into it for donkeys years) and I will be eternally grateful to whoever does something to get Britain British again.
"Good evening Ladies, Gentlemen,
Pardon my french, but Balls should go get nuttered to a vet when speaking like that about Europeans. White East Europeans, just in case he didn't get it.
Happy nuttering, Balls dude."
"Indeed...my own nightmares. Some were saying that Labour were trying so desperately to lose the election this was the probable cause. When the polls kept them pegged at 30% no matter what shit they came up with they had to dig deep...bigotgate etc.

Despite what she writes there perhaps you'd like to read more of her comments on the link below where she specifiaclly states that before 1997 the UK's pension schemes were in a good state and the envy of others. I remember the late 90s saying to friends that the Euros wanted our pensions (The UK funds were greater than most of the rest of Europe's PUT TOGETHER)
http://www.rosaltmann.com/ssp_end_of_final_salary_jan09.htm"
"""Remembering Evan Davies' programme for the BBC, 'The day the immigrants left' threw up a vivid picture of a workshy British workforce unwilling to do the jobs the immigrants were doing""
A work of pure fiction .Just what you would expect from the BBC."
In the last census my town had a population i the 18000 mark. I read a document just last week by the local east riding of yorks council sayig that we now have 3000 migrants living i this town. How are we expected to cope with schools, houses, jobs hospitals, dentists etc with this amount of non english speaking people (I have to be careful what I say). Now Balls tells us that labour has been wrong to allow in so many. - I think I have just proved it. Whatever will happen when turkey joins the EU - I think it will be a case of God help us all.
"_AT_therealrodhull

Chadwick88 is making his claim about Islamic immigrants without nuance or qualification. I agree that some Islamic immigrants do not respect the culture of the UK and do not wish to integrate - but that is not what Chadwick88 said. He/she/it made it clear that all Islamic immigrants should be tarred with the same brush. That is the very definition of bigotry."
"_AT_shirleyr

Earthquakes, hurricanes, nuclear disasters - and then I fully expect the sky will fall in on top of us."
"Ed Balls
I have news for you. What matters to the UK electorate is growth per capita and how it is shared rather than total growth. However, corporations are only interested in having more customers and hence bigger profits. The rest are left with lower wages and bigger traffic jams.
You come off as a corporate lackey."
Why now Ed, why not when you wee in power? You've made a balls of that!
"jonathb - you are absolutely correct. The IT industry in this country is being decimated. Companies are either outsourcing work to the Indian sub-continent or else they are bringing in cheap ""onshorers"" as you state.
Companies over here go into partnership with companies in India, and what happens next? Surprise surprise - British workers (of all colours/ethnic origins) and ALL skill levels are made redundant whilst all 'vacancies' are filled by internal company transfers using the staff from the sub-continent.
These company transfers never work the other way around. Funny that.
Are (or were) these companies in any danger of going under? Making losses? Not on your Nelly. Get rid of 70% of British staff, replace them with cheaper drones and watch the profits rise even higher. That is the attitude of these companies. The remaining Brit workers are left to deal with the problems that the drones cannot cope with - i.e. anything that requires lateral thinking and not following a script.
The fact that key members of Labour, even now do not 'get' this is an absolute joke. They should have stopped wasting money on 'focus' groups and instead of sticking to fancy dinners with company directors, they should have met workers at ALL levels and also gone round knocking on a few doors."
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Appalling stuff. Can't believe that Balls has the ignorance to produce such visceral bear-baiting populism. Scapegoating unfortunates from Eastern Europe who lived under repressive regimes in near intolerable conditions for this nation's ills? What total balls. Playing on prejudice and primitive fears rather than trying to explain the background and present the matter ethically is clearly too much for Ed. Is there really a place in Commons for someone with these views? What will be in the next Labour manifesto? Mosley's racist drivel presented as a profound social analysis?
"I read some of the above in disbelief. Ed Balls has had it as far as I'm concerned.
I am fed up of hearing these foreigners say our health service here is free
Aha.i>
Personally, I am extremely thankful to the surgeon who operated on my appendix (in an NHS hospital) ..and who happened to be from Eastern Europe."
"tomedinburgh
6 Jun 2010, 1:21AM
""You don't hear many stories about crime ridden Polish ghettos,""
I can tell you a few and direct you to the problem."
"_AT_LtKilgore

What is ironic about this BBC programme and a lot of the ""leftwing"" rhetoric on this forum is that the white working-class of this country do not have the highest unemployment or benefit dependency rates (or levels of criminality). One community has ~50% economic activity for instance, but they get no stick at all. Presumably they are the deserving poor unlike us.
Ed Balls is full of it. He is just after votes. The issue is not one of race, it is one of the impact of large scale immigration over short time scales on competition for jobs and services.
As for the Poles, yes many are hard working, but a fair few are scroungers as well so stop with the over generalisations. My sister works for the Benefits Agency and she deals with lots of benefit applications from Poles. She told me only today that a favourite wheeze is to bring over partners from Poland just in time to have the baby here and then claim £500 in handouts."
"RE ""In retrospect, Britain should not have rejected transitional controls on migration from the first wave of new EU member states in 2004, which we were legally entitled to impose. As the GMB's Paul Kenny and others have pointed out, the failure of our government to get agreement to implement the agency workers directive made matters worse.""
I fail to see what is racist about this statement. If it is racist then it means that all EU countries (all but the UK, Ireland and one other) who imposed transitional controls are racist. It is the first time I have seen any Labour politician admit that failure to implement the agency workers directive made matters worse. It surely did, as I know hundreds, if not thousands, of them plus dozens of agencies and we all agree.
Another failure making matters worse was that of not adopting the European age discrimination directive.
These three failures put millions, not thousands, out of work permanently. I think if the writer were racist - as the leftwing fanatics posting here assert - he would be saying that Labour should have treated racial discrimination the same way it treated age discrimination.
Yet another failure was that of allowing IT workers inter company transfers. They are contract workers here and thousands are out of work so why do we need to accept more.
However, I don't think Ed Balls is in any position to advise the current government. I am not expecting much from the Tories because they have always favoured immigration to keep labour costs low. Furthermore, the Poles only work for a pittance here (and put people out of work) because their wages went a long way in Poland where they remitted them, and they also collected benefits. I have worked for 40 years, paying high taxation, but have never been eligible for any benefits. That maybe one area where the Tories will discourage immigration from the EU, by cutting these benefits and not before time."
"_AT_stewd
And what is the weekly rate for a UK contractor with a good knowledge of RPG IV? Too much. Good competent coders are in short supply at reasonable rates, and that is the main reason why companies in financial services are heading to Bangalore; or at a pinch Russia if middleware fro routers, etc is required."
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If East Europeans think immigration is so cool why don't they open their labour markets to the poorer countries to the East, say Turkey for instance?
"The influx is not surprising, given that big business, which is the single most powerful economic force driving decisions around immigration, feels like it's left to 'pick up the pieces' because of the inadequate education of employees.
Not my words, but Sir Terry Leahy's (Tesco's CEO):
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/tesco-boss-school-standards-too-low-1802231.html"
"They do. Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic are full of Ukrainians doing the jobs that the locals don't want.
Now, I wonder who takes all the crappy jobs in Ukraine."
Bonkers. All politicians are bonkers.
"_AT_Dunnyboy

Thanks for the info. My head hurts. There must be a country at the end of the chain somewhere with shit loads of unpleasant jobs going begging but no ""hard working immigrants"" to come and do them - North Korea maybe?"
"Thank you for making my choice in the upcoming Labour leadership ballot so much easier. With one more candidate eliminated from my shortlist, it should soon not be too difficult to find the candidate who least offends my Labour values.
As one of those immigrants from the EU who is not undercutting wages but instead highly-qualified and earning a decent salary in a shortage profession in the public sector, I can see someone who is talking out of his backside when I come across them.
Ironically, Balls and his department were my boss until recently. He made some sound decisions at the time but without the help and briefings from civil servants he seems to have taken leave of his senses."
According to his recent interview Ed Balls: 'Tony and Gordon never found a way to bring it together' he thought you reached Swindon from London via Euston, not Paddington. I think we can assume geography is not his specialist subject; now what that subject could be elludes me.
"_AT_Emma2001

If you believe that, you're a bigger fool than i thought."
"Just about right robi. That's it really, isn't it?
Don't get me wrong I am not against being part of the European Union but the idea that we have all prospered may have happened to you - along with the money you made from charging all of us with your expenses - but I have see little prosperity. My salary is lower now in real terms than it was ten years ago.
Now I wish you would just go away as I find your bullish attitude and lies and deceit far too much to bear."
"hoffwoff:
Your post: ""As one of those immigrants from the EU who is not undercutting wages but instead highly-qualified and earning a decent salary in a shortage profession in the public sector,....""
Why not tell us what the profession is because I did not see anybody fitting that category when I worked in the public sector. Most employees I saw had no specific training or profession (although they might have been educated) and just dreamt up crackpot ideas for spending taxpayers' money. Furthermore, I'm afraid payments out of taxes don't count."
The Labour Party used to stand for internationalism. It has now degenerated into "British jobs for British workers". I'm almost tempted to support Dianne Abbott, who at least seems to be standing out against this trend.
"_AT_alanpav
Suggest you google Dianne Abbott and Finnish nurses.
I want a labour party that prioritises the people who set it up and still fund it, via the trade unions. Internationalism can do one."
"So weak.
So what?"
"I think it is entirely foolish to think we will win back our freedoms from any of the parties in Parliament.
Conservative, Liberal, and Labour are all right wing middle class parties and they really don't give a shit what happens as long as they all get our votes.
The ship is sinking and Parliament is just rearranging the deckchairs to suit themselves."
"ilovemisty:
""If East Europeans think immigration is so cool why don't they open their labour markets to the poorer countries to the East, say Turkey for instance?""
That's beside the point. Turkey is not in the EU. Immigration is one thing, labor mobility within the EU is an altogether different issue. What Balls is essentially saying is that Eastern Europeans should be permanently relegated to second-class EU citizenship status. He wants one set of rules for the Brits and other Western Europeans, and an altogether different set of rules for Eastern Europeans. If that's not crazy and racist, I don't know what is.
What some ""working class"" Brits fail to understand is that non-British workers (both immigrants and Eastern European workers, again, different categories) put a lot more into the British welfare state than get out of. The average BNP voter enjoys benefits subsidized by Polish, Lithuanian or Romanian workers, oh the irony."
"Ed ... If your exclusive private school education taught you to speak your mind, as with Iraq, why did you not speak out? You can't retrofit excuses and policy positions.
I'm sure you are pro-Europe, it is where you all make your money nowadays.
And if you really believe it is a platform for free trade, get on and persuade the bastards to end agricultural subsidies which prevent the 3rd world from competing.
This is very conveniently written. You sound like you've been working closely with Campbell. I think the decent people left in your party want a change of course.
I pray to God we never have a Prime Minister who won't pay for a poppy out of his own richly lined pocket."
"""that has to do purely with pandering to the Daily Mail crowd""
It's amazing -- people keep accusing him of things like this, but lets be honest here, if he was pandering, we'd have reintroduced hanging and been allowed to throw away anything we wanted without someone checking it. I really don't see the vast right-wing agenda happening. I see a massive state that measures your car and taxes you on exactly how many inches long it is, and who writes tax rules that say things like ""we won't tell you if you fit in this category, but if you decide you do, you owe us more tax and if we decide later you did then you'll owe us tax AND fines so you'll just have to guess correctly"".
If you think this was pandering to right wing views, then you probably have to understand that he's also as close to your socialist views as he's ever likely to get as well...."
"_AT_Crimethink

Yes it is the point. East Europeans are in favour of immigration because they are immigrants to richer countries in the West. They benefit from it because they can earn much more here for the same effort than they can in their own countries. Which EU country will pay me two times the rate for the job I do here in the UK? When they have as many immigrants as we do here they can lecture us about racism.
This working-class Brit has dealt with thousands of various types of immigration case files. Yes many are hard working and law abiding and a positive benefit, but a substantial number are economic drains. Even when some immigrants come here and work hard, the fact that they have partners who don't work and often have several children. This means they recieve more in public services than they contribute in tax and NI (for example a man working as a security guard with three dependents).
By the way, I have two jobs (as do most of the Brits I work with), don't vote BNP, don't oppose all immigration and know for an absolute fact I am subsidising the benefits, education and tax credits of quite a few immigrants to this country, including a fair few East Europeans (child allowance for example), and their maternity handouts for pregnant partners who turn up here just in time to give birth and collect their £500."
"Ah, Mr Balls. Mr Balls.
You say:
The stark differences between our economy and the rest in housing, finance and trade were too much for Britain to bear with no interest rate or exchange rate flexibility.
Oooh ho ho ho just what are you saying darling !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"What a strange lot the left are. They say immigration controls are racist so my assumption is that - moving away from the protest point to make themselves feel that little bit better about their progressive credentials - if the left were in government would they advocate that anyone who wanted to should come to the UK?
I only say this as I am trying to tease out the policy debate here. It is simply not good enough to say 'My policy is that Ed Balls is racist' if you claim to be a credible political movement. Or are we back to every other left wing position on every other policy
""No Nukes"" ""Stop Polluting"" ""Free Palestine"" ""We Love Iran""
All just a meaningless set of slogans which do not present a policy position.
I ask again - what is the left wing policy position on immigration?"
Ed, you are a sad populist.
By the way a policy is a set of statements that justify a set of actions. An action is generally an instruction given to the state to implement.
".
As if to prove my point...."
"Dogstarscribe
Ros used to be in the office below me and in this case I entirely agree with her.
Why do you feel that this is inconsistent with my response to your misunderstanding of DB rules?"
Hi Ed, you.ve probably been asked already, but could you provide some links to the articles where you acknowledged this problem - if it is a problem - in 2004 or at any time before June 2010?
"jonathb in the area of IT and the migrant workforce, contradiction seems to be running riot.

* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/17/ibm_borders/
IBM's (quick view) own approach to the migrant workforce.
From IBM's own inhouse pages on it own appraoch to outsourcing.

It appears when it comes to profit, IBM runs with the hound and the hare."
ilovemisty, what part of "Turkey is not part of the EU" did you not understand? And what part of "Eastern Europeans are not immigrants"? EU citizens are ENTITLED to live anywhere in the EU, just as a British citizen is entitled to live anywhere in Britain. What the restrictions that Balls defends do is that they make sure certain categories of EU citizens (Romanians, Bulgarians) do not have the same rights as others. Wouldn't you agree that it's racist to support discrimination based on ethnicity and nationality? Is there any non-racist argument for a two-tier EU citizenship system?
"crimethink:
Your post"" EU citizens are ENTITLED to live anywhere in the EU, just as a British citizen is entitled to live anywhere in Britain. ""
What are you talking about? You mean EU citizens who come here without any money or training for any specific job are entitled to be provided with a house and benefits such as schooling, healthcare, unemployment benefit, child benefit, tax credits, and a job? And who do you think ought to be paying for all this? And how do you think it can be provided when many are homeless and there are queues for treatment? Personally, I have been waiting 35 years for treatment to my arthritic feet. It is no comfort to me that people can arrive one day and get treatment the next.
You are quite wrong. A British citizen as an EU citizen is not entitled to go to any country and receive these benefits. If I wanted to go to France, for instance, I would not be entitled to anything and would not expect the French state to provide it."
Erm yes, but it's a tad late to do anything about it now isnt it.
"Ed Balls(up) states the bleeding obvious. But then, Neues Arbeit ZaNu-Lab were deaf, dumb and blind to what everyone else knew.
Maybe it was all part of the Teflon B'Liar, Puff-Daddy McLoon, Mandelpratt and their Marxist Fellow Travelers to bugger up UK society for a generation. Well, they certainly have succeed in financial terms to bugger up everyone's future here in the UK.
Sod, the sodding sodding lot 'o em. I hope they turn themselves inside out by stuffing themselves up their collective ring-pieces and listen to their own collective sh*t.... because that is all they are good for....... Like the insides of Father Jack's dirty linen basket........
'Chocolate Fireguards' and 'Teapots' come to mind....."
"""mustspeak
I won't comment on the immigration issue directly, but as regards the test for immigrants to speak English: how about first making sure first that the English speak it correctly? How often, for instance, have all of us seen the word ""Their"" (as in belonging to them) spelled as ""There"" and vice versa? I have even seen this from writers in computer and astronomical magazines!!""
That is grossly unfair, again and again the left made sure the working classes suffered a 'comprehensive' education.
I have a B. Sc., M. Sc. and a Ph. D., I also have a C.S.E. Grade 3 in English. Thank you Anthony 'rich fucking publicly educated' Crosland and Shirley 'rich fucking publicly educated' Williams."
"Too late, ten years too late. One of the aims of the EU is to raise the economic level of all member countries -unfortunately we are not encouraging prosperous countries into the EU [such as Norway], but poverty stricken, 19th century, economies post communism. This is not a good time.
How is it that so many come via Germany, France etc to UK? There must be policies, permited by EU law that restrict other EU nationals? ""New Labour's"" aspirational supporters - the small employers, market gardens and large retail chains - would suffer at first as they lose their cheap labour -but along with raising the minimum wage - and prices, British workers would be employed in their place at a decent wage."
"Crimethink:
Your post 11.20 is utter rubbish. EU citizens are not entitled to live anywhere. For a start, Eastern Europeans can't go to most countries including France and Germany. They are not entitled to come here without money and demand housing and jobs and medical treatment and benefits - we are borrowing the money to pay them. If we do not borrow the money, how can demand entitlement?
British citizens are not entitled to go to other EU countries and demand likewise either.
Where does your information come from - the Socialist Worker?
I am still waiting for Hoffwoff to tell me what esteemed professional job he is doing in the public sector that none of the eight million Brits could have done. Let me guess, Domestic Violence Co-ordinator, Allotments Adviser, Adviser the Quangos name committee. Personally, I have been waiting 35 years for treatment to my arthritic fee and I have paid taxes for 40 years so why am I waiting when all these people are treated immediately. What evidence do you have that BNP voters put less into the economy than newly arrived immigrants and are supported by immigrants. Your post really is a disgrace."
"These half-wits in Labour are just trying so hard to outdo right-wing parties, as creepy as it looks, they are not even good at it.
What riles me, is the absolute cluelessness of labour leaders on so many issues including immigration.
I have been fortunate enough to work with eastern Europeans in some of Britain's bitterly cold, grubby, musty medieval food factories. As someone used to working in some of the most gritty, physically draining, sweaty, sometimes humiliating jobs, I found the eastern europeans mainly the polish a marvel to work with! These guys are the most hard working people I've ever seen, their work rate and strength is something that the cowards who berate and denigrate immigrants from eastern europe needs to witness. When I worked for a few food companies, we used to joke that the polish could mix bread roll flour faster than it takes a ferrari to guzzle up a mile.
It was an honour to work alongside these eastern europeans at a time many food factories should have been closing shop because every damn loser in this country would rather sign on and wait for the giro every friday than work in them.
The current wave of immigrant bashing which has become very appealing to every politician seeking quick, cheap relevance is unfair and in bad taste. Afterall if the government had done their bit, immigration would have been better managed...
NHS in massive recruitment drive in India for junior doctors.
Is this not an indication that some aspects of tighter laws on immigration is hurting the UK more than immigrants?
Police kills two pedestrians in Luton believed to be foreign nationals.
If the shoe had been on the other foot, there would have been an uproar, 'deport the lawless foreigners', 'they are pure scum' and stuff like that...
Is the UK fast sliding into the ranks of extreme xenophobia?"
"I don't know about Canada's asylum laws, but a white South African successfully claimed asylum in Canada due to persecution for his race.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6818096.ece"
_AT_ OrangeHeart I will second that. Having worked for the last two years in lots of shit agency minimum-wage "jobs", I have been impressed with the humour and application shown by my Eastern European colleagues.
"efmcandrew
Crimethink:
Your post 11.20 is utter rubbish.
""EU citizens are not entitled to live anywhere. For a start, Eastern Europeans can't go to most countries including France and Germany. They are not entitled to come here without money and demand housing and jobs and medical treatment and benefits - we are borrowing the money to pay them. If we do not borrow the money, how can demand entitlement?
British citizens are not entitled to go to other EU countries and demand likewise either"".
Er no. Total bollocks. Was in a small village in France only the other day and there were loads of Polish and Hungarian trademen in the bar for the post-work apero. British citizens are local councillors and even Mayors of communes in France and a British citizen can be a candidate for the European Parliament anywhere in Europe.
I don't think Crimethink's sources are to be found in the austere pages of the Socialist Worker, rather the ""Free Movement of Capital and Labour"", within the European Union.....etc.
But don't let details like blinding reality get in the way of an ignorant rant eh?"
"Appalling. Utterly appalling.
The people I have met from Eastern Europe have been courteous, fun, enlivening and an asset to the community. I dont give a monkeys nuts for their economic input, so don't use that as some kind of 'natural law' as demanded by Mammon to let you off the hook you wish to wriggle on.
So why was it a mistake? Because it cost you votes from bigots?
You're all the bloody same you lot. Shape-shifters and shifty when it comes to the need for votes. Disgraceful."
"I look forward to the day, obviously now not far off, when skilled British craftsmen are looking for employment on building sites in Warsaw, Sophia and Vilnius.
Watch this cheapskate politics come back and bite you Balls."
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"What are Shadow children?
Ah - thats right - they're the children in detention at Yarls Wood.
Guess shadow education, is what they get . All they get."
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"Wow...I find the title of this article absolutely amazing.
Why would a politician so blatantly single out one group of immigrants. In America, if a democratic politician were to write an op ed saying ""we made a mistake in letting in too many hispanics"" it would go without saying this person's career in public life was finished. They would be publicly crucified."
Labour was wrong about almost everything. The economy is in ruins, we are embroiled in disastrous foreign military adventures, civil rights were denied as never before, corruption was rife in parliament...everything about the Labour Party's 13 years of misrule was incompetent, nasty, arrogant and harmful. Mr Balls is a member of a disgraced and disgraceful organisation widely despised by the population.
"Orangeheart

LOL
What a serf"
"stevehill
6 Jun 2010, 2:48PM

Very good points all.
I've recently been banned from Comments by the wife because she says it puts me in a bad mood, so I had to be very quick knocking out that message.
Some might add 24 hour licensing, renewing trident....etc...."
Interesting - noy a single person answered my earlier question
"bazzartii

.
Has it ever occured to you that if cheapstake employers did not have access to an unlimited pool of cheap labour they would have to pay people at the bottom of the heap here more, and treat them with a bit of respect for a change?
True there would be less of the grotesque income inequality, less money for the directors, less money swirling round the City trough for them to gamble away; but that might be considered a price well worth paying
BTW

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/Briefingpaper/document/41
I seem to remember Broon lying about this"
"Ed,your government borrowed a load of dough and imported a load of people to build a load of flats for a load of other people that wouldn't have been here in the first place if you hadn't imported them,What for?A miniscule increase in per capita GDP?A fantasy that it would prop up pension ponzi schemes?Perhaps you just like concrete,glass and cheap bricks?I know lads that couldn't get near those building sites,lads with families to feed,what should they have done?Gone to work in Spain and not seen their kids for months on end?
""Free movement of labour?""
Anyone that was displaced during your tenure might just call it ""forced movement of labour."""
"PM will warn today that Britain's 'whole way of life' will be disrupted for years by spending cuts--
I wonder how many capable Brit bods will now be seeking a more secure future overseas ?
Will elderly and infirm people be cast aside for the vultures to chew on?"
"It's quite disappointing to see the contempt that so many so-called socialists seem to have for unskilled manual workers. Amongst many there does appear to be an attitude that they are workshy, racist scum who deserve to lose their jobs or have their wages cut. They would probably vote BNP in any case.
I too spent many years in the 1980s working in food processing factories in Norfolk, packing bacon, picking strawberries and slaughtering and packing chickens - it was some of the lowest paid factory work in Britain, a lot of it was cash in hand, unions were virtually unknown, and temporary contracts were more common than permanent ones.
So don't give me any of that old bollocks about the English being workshy scum - they are just as hard working as any other people, despite what any loaded BBC documentary might say.
The lowest paid, most vulnerable workers need the protection of permanent contracts, a minimum wage that is more than a slave wage, and equal pay and conditions for all workers."
Pretty revolting and therefore wholly in character. This is encouraging "safe" bigotry: it is entirely PC to criticise Poles because theye are white and Christian. And of course they actually work. can't have that sort of thing, can we?
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"""Third, I support the political and economic case for EU enlargement to Turkey.""
I believe, in relation to the Turkish threat, Metternich said ""East of Vienna the Orient begins.""
A wiser man than you Ed."
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llovemisty - Prioritise the people who set up the Labour party? They're all dead! I'm all for trade unions, but they must not degenerate into protectionism, which was the curse of the 1930s slump. Let's have freedom of movement for working people, as far as is practically possible.
heck, thats not going to get you voted in as the new Labour leader - would you accept shadow home sec? you will, ok right..!
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All you need to know about Ed Balls and what he thinks of British people.
"I'm afraid I don't believe anything this man says, or anything his party has to say about immigration. When a statement such as this below states.

You just know this is absolute rubbish. If Ed Balls was to venture into a local job agency and have a chat with the staff there and ask them what the true picture is, he would be informed that these ""hard-working migrants"" come here for a few months, take the jobs of the indigenous British then go back to their own countries and claim back all the tax they have paid to the British government whilst working here. Then they come back the following year and do the same thing over again.
But then this type of deception is nothing new from Labour or it's politicians. One smidgin of truth though

I take it Ed Balls never bothers to go and ask his constituents opinions on this matter, and just takes it for granted that they will acquiesce to this. Oh the joys of millions of anatolian peasants and Kurds escaping the poverty of eastern Turkey descending upon our job centres. Incidentally when does this European project become a Eurasian project, as the boundaries of Europe would then include Iraq, Syria, Iran? What happens if the Kurds from those regions decide to reside in Turkey, and the Turks grant them passports in order to get rid of them knowing that they will come to Britain, and they too decide to decamp to north London or other metropolitan regions of the UK. Have you thought about that Ed? No I didn't think so. But then when have these gullible politicians thought anything through when it concerns the true interests of the people of this country.

No chance of explaining why you consider it to be flawed then?

The world doesn't care about Britain, heart of Europe or not. How much longer do we have to swallow this so called ""axiom.""? Britain may need to be in Europe and Europe may benefit from our being part of the EU, (especially as they export more to us than we export to them) but please spare us these axiomatic cliches.
No I'm sorry you and your party have had your time, and you have fouled up dreadfully. All the benefits of your tenure in office, i.e. The minimum wage, and er, er, well that's about it really, I would like to add the improvements to the NHS to the glorious achievement of executing a wage hike, but unfotunately it looks as though the improvements to the NHS still have to be paid for, and we're going to have to make cutbacks. So it's goodbye Ed take your pals with you, close the door and don't come back again ever."
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This article is utterly dishonest. Balls knows perfectly well that a country cannot restrict EU freedom of movement and stay in the EU. Why doesn't he just join UKIP?
Absolute, sensationalist tosh. Doed this man really think he is capable of leading a political party when he come out with statements like this?
"Lets just allow as many unskilled workers to come here as want to. Hell we can find them housing; no shortage of affordable housing here. As for the millions of UK people on unemployment benefit; they are just a lazy bunch who won't work long hours for wages the rest us would think is a weekend's spending money. The rest of us really don't mind paying for them to vegetate in their hellish estates. It's great seeing businesses thrive on paying workers low wages. I'm kind of alright though, because I'm in a well-paid job. It's just the majority fighting it out for a living wage, housing, school places, decent health etc. I've got private medical insurance so I'm alright jack!
I bet all the people here yelling racism are not residents of huge estates where most people are unemployed and have been for years. They are not competing for low paid jobs and social housing with unskilled immigrants. I am sick of the privileged (yes you are if you aren't them) thinking themselves morally superior to everyone else because they are not 'racist'. Well here's news, it's not racist to object to uncontrolled immigration of unskilled workers. We have far too many of our own that need help. Millions in fact. And by the way many of these British people are ethnic minorities. Is helping them racist?"
If you want to get serious about immigration reform, deport Simple Simon Cowell.
"Balls!
The good folk of Talin would no doubt look back and agree that, on balance, the economic 'plus' experienced when thousands of drunken Brits rampaged through the town on cheap hen/stag nights was simply not worth the 'negative' economic hangover, the raped and the pillaged, the destruction of peace and community.
Yet, being European, the good folk of Talin would have shown more respect and decency than that being displayed by a senior member of the opposition here today.
This is cheap, gutter press tactics and I for one am heartily sick of hearing this bilge.
We need a sea change of British Politics - and quick!"
"exiledubliner:

Farcical argument.
There were of course cherry pickers, asparagus and potatoe gatheres in the UK before we had mass immigration."
"http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284568/British-jobs-migrant-workers-Figures-ridicule-Labours-employment-pledge.html
Balls chooses to focus on Eastern Europeans but there is a much more serious issue as regards migrants from outside the EU. The Daily Mail article is wrong in saying that EE migration on the scale that occured could not have been prevented of course - as in transitional arrangements.
Nulab - what a nasty neo-liberal disgrace."
"navyman

The Blair/Broon didn't even achieve that
Per capita GDP fell by £281 (2005-2009)"
"Sigh, the xenophobic commenters here (a minority, fortunately) seem to be immune to reason. I realize the 'for'ners come to the UK to get benefits"" line is just Daily Mail nonsense, but let's suppose it was true. Can somebody tell me whether Eastern Europeans are entitled to any ""special benefits"" that other EU citizens living in the UK (say, Brits, Germans, Italians) are not entitled to? If not, where's the problem?
Unrestricted labour movement means that there is a level playing field for everyone, all across Europe. On the other hand, restrictions on labour movement (which are against EU principles, but were enacted in various countries as ""exceptional"" and temporary measures) discriminate against specific nationalities, and have no practical effect, they just force people to work in crap conditions, not pay taxes, and get easily exploited by ruthless employers. These restrictions have close to zero effect on stopping actual movement of people, since there are plenty of legal loopholes. Germany is more of a police state than Britain, and, unlike Britain, they still have restrictions on Polish workers, yet there are considerably more Poles living in Germany than in the UK.
And to the person who asked whether British minorities who have a problem with European workers can be racist, the obvious answer is yes, of course, minorities can be racist too, just as I'm sure there are racists among Eastern Europeans as well. Minority status doesn't make one immune to prejudice. Just look at the US, where nativism and anti-immigrant xenophobia are rampant among African Americans, while conversely anti-black racism is rampant among Hispanic immigrants."
Most immigrants work hard ,it is the many lazy indiginous Brits who seem afraid to work. No MP dare say this obvious fact.
"What a load of tosh!
Ed, Labour has to stop with the 'we know what's best for you' syndrome and start to listen to the voters. Your writing is partisan and lacks any sort of sincerity at all: eg ""But neither our tough points system, nor the Tories' flawed immigration cap, applies to migration within the EU.""
You just can't bring yourself to say sorry can you? You can't admit that you were a bunch of incompetent cronies, can you? You can't bring yourself to admit that you had no backbone to stand up to Blair's illegal wars? You are living in a dream world because of your hubris.
You make me want to vomit. It will be a cold day in hell before Labour gets my vote again"
It's quite clear that Balls is playing up to reactionary types. But why on earth is he doing it in this paper? He should do it in the mail, while simultaneously writing a left wing piece in the Guardian. His two-facedness would quickly be exposed, but it wouldn't be as ridiculously stupid as this.
"So, very much like Britain then, where the government set a ridiculously low minimum wage and allowed agencies to employ foreign workers under worse conditions than local ones, thereby making them more attractive to employers.

Maybe they won't say it because they aren't bigots who swallow all the lies that employers and New Labour fed them.
Just a thought."
There they go, blaming foreigners.......
Had the title been: 'We were wrong to allow so many African Caribbeans or Pakistani people or etc. into Britain' ed balls would have been arrested by now for racism.... but it's obviously acceptable to be racist towards Eastern Europeans. I wonder if they have similar articles in Eastern Europe: 'We were wrong to allow Tesco, Co-op, BP, HSBC etc into Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia' and so on.
"Ed: it's not workers from further east in the EU that are the problem - as you very well know; at least you would know if you got your head out into the daylight!
As for Turkey joining the EU, which part of ""European"" do you not understand?"
"I don't believe anyone is saying anything against eastern europeans. They are like any other nationality including us. This is about the immigration of unskilled labour to a country which currently has millions unemployed and which also lacks affordable homes for everyone who currently lives here.
It doesn't matter where they are coming from if they don't have skills that we actually NEED then they are only adding to the many problems we already have in an overcrowded country. We don't have resources to deal with yet more people. There is nothing right-wing, racist, daily mail-ish whatever about that fact. This country is skint lets not taken on the responsibility of more unskilled people looking for work while thousands of young people in the UK struggle to find any job at all. That is the real tragedy and don't be so arrogant as to dismiss people's genuine concerns about what future they will have if immigration continues this way. And to everyone who says the British are lazy shame on you. It is hypocritical, inaccurate and ignorant."
I came to the UK from NZ to teach some years ago. I was horrified to find after I had been teaching here for some time that those such as I from the former colonies here by virtue of work permits have no labour rights whatsoever in this country. Our passports are stamped 'No recourse to public funds' and those of us with English parents or grandparents are regarded with considerable suspicion by border officials when we enter and leave this country. Australian, Canadian, New Zealand and South African teachers and other professionals working here on work permits have no union looking after our interests and may be dispensed with on the whim of someone in a senior position. Eventually winning the 'right to remain' and acheiving a senior teaching position, I have been constantly appalled at the numbers of migrants who have no or very little English, few skills any employer wants or needs and very needy children who are causing massive problems in state primary education which the know-it-all Mr Balls MUST have known about in his position in education. His attempts to 'blame it all on Brown' is self-serving claptrap and he is beneathe contempt. The UK needs a strong parliamentary opposition, but if Balls is elected Labour leader the Labour party will die, leaving a basically one-party state.
"Well what did you all expect? It's simply a load of Balls after all.
NuLabour = no moral compass whatsoever.
Pj."
"_AT_pc99 6 Jun 2010, 7:34PM
Wroking in factories. Is this saying something for education policies of successive governments (of both colours) that we as a country could not produce individuals who could fill sheves in Tescos, drive minicabs and work on assesmbly lines. Is this your definition of 'higly skilled'?
Ah your government has also know that 'students' comer over to study courses in colleges that are not equiped to teach, even if these 'colleges' could teach the students cannot understand or speak English. In which langiage were the stidents being thaught?
You tell me :-)"
"_AT_crimethink

There are lots of Turks in Germany, which as you point out is not in the EU. Nothing to stop the Poles openning up their labour markets to the Turks. After all, having all those hard working immigrants can only help the Polish economy can't it? No Pole would lose out would they? How do you think all the Poles who have gone back from the UK would feel if they had to compete with a ~million Turks?
I spent a fair amount of time issuing EEA residence cards so I am fully aware of Treaty Rights. I'm not attacking East Europeans for coming here and exercising these rights, I'm attacking the government (a Labour government at that) for not thinking through the consequences of essentially uncontrolled immigration over short time scales (they are immigrants to THIS country) for working-class people here. They are allowed to think of their own selfish interests are they not, just like the Poles, the middle-classes and ethnic minorities all do? When you open your borders to poorer countries, you are likely to have a net influx of low skilled labour, no?
What part of the fact that we have millions of unemployed, the economy is stuffed and that we are about to make tens of thousands of working-class civil servants unemployed (people who want to work and do work - including me quite possibly) do you not undrstand? The very last thing we need is an influx of more cheap labour from Eastern Europe at the moment. There is nothing racist in learning from past errors and adapting to changing circumstances. If the Romanians and Bulgarians don't like waiting till the economy improves to come here then I suggest they quit the European Union."
"I'm disappointed that there is no mention of the commonwealth here.
Commonwealth citizens have shown tremendous courage and loyalty to Britain over the past century or so, stood up for us in two world wars, manned the health service, driven the busses, etc., etc., etc. But now we're in Europe they've been forgotten about. We owe them a lot, and it's a shame that they're being overlooked in favour of people who, though they might live closer geographically, often have much more tenuous links to Britain.
I think it's also a shame that people from outside Europe have no automatic right of entry to Britain even if they are married to British citizens, while European nationals with no British relatives are allowed in and out freely, no questions asked.
It's a kind of racism - giving preferential treatment to people who are geographically close and doing it in such a way that people from further afield can't get in. But then again, I think that that's what Europe is about - it's a white club which has formed a cartel to pull an advantage over other parts of the world."
"_AT_alanpav

I want a Labour party which prioritises the working-class people of this country, the ones that overwhelmingly fund it. Not one with a fetish about Israel/Palestine, America and immigrants.
Lets have freedom of movement of working people in a regulated fashion, which takes into account the impact on low-skilled workers in the host country."
"_AT_Dunnyboy

If you are a working-class prole in the UK you must realise you have no right to serve your own interests. Even if you only question the scale or rate of immigration in non-racist terms, it still apparently means you have a garden shed load of Zyklon B you are just itching to use"
"_AT_kikichan
We have millions of people here either directly from the Commonwealth, or who their British born descendants. Indians, Jamaicans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc. All those countries wanted independence, they did not want to be British so why are you moaning now?
Unfortunately some of these communities have also engaged in large scale abuse of the immigration rules which is why the rules have been tightened (eg new rules on abuse of student visas, introducing visas for Jamaica etc).
As largely secular Europeans we also have much more culturally in common with Germans, French, Poles etc than many Commonwealth countries. For example, not obsessing over religion to the extent of perpetual offense, threatening violence or murdering people.
The EU exists to stop further conflict in Europe and to promote trade. Lots of ethnic and religious minorities exist in the EU, and have far more rights and are less subject to massacre than equivalents in the a fair bit of the Commonwealth (e.g India, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, South Africa...etc)."
Actually, they did. The (ironic) problem was that the votes were split over the Tories, BNP and UKIP : if all 3 were added together, Ed would have had the "portillo moment" predicted for him. That's why he's now trying to woo the supporters of the 2 smaller parties.
"ilovemisty, it's a bit disgusting that you persevere in your thinly veiled racist remarks. So if Romanians and Bulgarians don't like being discriminated against on the basis of their nationality they should ""quit the EU'? That's about as crass as saying black South Africans should have just emigrated if they objected to second-class status in the apartheid days.
Diverting the conversation again to immigration (an unrelated topic) and Turkey is just plain dishonest. As Turkey is not a member of the EU, Poland has no obligation to ""open its labour market"" to Turkey. However, Poland has zero restrictions for workers from the EU. EU citizens are entitled to equal rights across Europe. If you don't like how that works, you can start a petition to get out of the EU. I can't believe the blatant racism of Brits who want one set of rules for themselves (Balls openly claims that he wants Brits to continue to work unrestricted in places like Frankfurt, while Eastern Europeans shouldn't), and another set of rules for Eastern European EU citizens. This sot of hate-filled garbage could only resonate with paranoid Little Englanders with chips on both shoulders, afraid they'd lose their jobs to smarter, better educated, more adaptable Eastern Europeans."
"What do you mean by ""more adaptable""? Does it mean willing to work for less pay than local labourers or willing to work under worse conditions like temporary contracts or cash in hand?
If only the thick, racist little Englanders of Norfolk, Suffolk and Lincolnshire would learn to get by on less, they would be happy too. Their grandfathers learnt to adapt when they got booted off the farms by mechanisation, their fathers learnt to adapt when they got squeezed out of their villages and onto council estates in King's Lynn and Thetford because their landlords sold the houses they lived in as weekend retreats for the rich.
Life is all about learning to adapt - especially if you're a a poorly educated Little Englander.
The contempt that some people have for the labourer is just astonishing. I could understand it from a Tory or an employer, because that's their business, but when I hear it from people who claim to be Socialists, I have to stop and marvel at what has happened to the Labour Party since I left."
"Mr Ed Balls is being very cowardly in seeking soft scapegoats for what he considers to be the necessary self-criticism that the Labour Party must undergo to transform itself from a governing party to a ""listening"" party. Understandably this Labour leader hears the angry word ""immigration"" on the lips of his voters in Morley and Outwood and immediately he thinks ""Eastern Europeans"". ""In retrospect"" he thinks the decision in 2004 to lift transitional restrictions on the free movement of labour between the UK and Central (not ""Eastern"" !) European members states of the EU was wrong.
Well at the time it was not wrong. The input from hardworking Poles and other EU nationalities was highly beneficial to the growing pre-recession British economy and saved English and Scottish agriculture from extinction, as well as many service industries in this country. It gave the British economy that extra dynamism that made it soar ahead of the more sluggish and protective French and German economies.
What was wrong about the decision in 2004, as the Federation of Poles in Great Britain repeatedly reminded the government, was the blind lack of proper staistics on how many Central Europeans were arriving here, where were they finding work and settling and how this would impact on local services, including schools, social services, the police and the NHS. It was only trade union pressure that ensured that these workers were protected from exploitation by gangmasters in the agricultural and food production industries but had still failed to protect those working in hotels and on building sites.
Yes, these new workers would be making their positive impact on the British economy and contributing into the excheqeur through paying income tax, national insurance and council tax. The problems was that the benefits and costs of this would not be evenly distributed throughout the country. Large cities like London, Edinburgh and Birmingham could absorb these new arrivals relatively easily, but smaller country towns such as Peterborough, Boston, Crewe or Redditch would find themselves exposed to an unexpected drain on their financial resources and their social fabric and even large muti-ethnic centres such as Slough were finding it difficult to convince the central government about the prior need for extra resources because of futile arguments over the sheer number of those arriving. It was this blindness to the uneven demographic and social impact of Central Europeans on different local communities throughout the country which was the government's most serious error in the years following 2004, and NOT its decision to open the British labour market to this eager new EU workforce. This seemingly calculated lack of interest in the new statistics and new local needs made the existing population (whether black, white or brown) nervous about the new influx and the increased competition in the lower income bracket of the labour market, and it allowed the redtop press and extremist organisations to come up with their own statistics on arrivals, on crime, on benefits, which suited their specific anti-Labour, anti-immigration and anti-EU agenda and resulted in considerable inter-community tension, xenophobic hysteria and more recently, even racially motivated murder.
Mr Balls' belated change of heart will only increase that tension. Does he want this on his conscience?"
"""toothfairy
7 Jun 2010, 11:40AM
it is the many lazy indiginous Brits who seem afraid to work. ""
Please leave your racist generalisations in your living room!!"
"_AT_crimethink

Nothing I said was racist. I have no problems with East Europeans, I have a problem with the government for letting so many in in such a short time without proper planning.
No, this sort of sensible idea (learning from the Polish situation) resonates with people wondering if they will still have a roof over their heads in a few months time, knowing they will have to compete with people able and willing to work for less than they can afford to live on. It is not a level playing field or there would be a million working-class Brits in Eastern Europe. Again, name the EU country where Brits can earn several times the rate they get here in the UK. Frankfurt is in Germany last time I checked.
The Bulgarians and Romanians will just have to lump it, they are getting more out of the EU than they are paying in after all. If they don't like it that is just tough."
"Ilovemisty
7 Jun 2010, 3:51PM

That's not the point. The point is that _everyone_ should be treated according to merit where immigration is concerned, and not receive preferential treatment just because they're from Europe. There are many people in the commonwealth (and elsewhere) with stronger links to Britain than many Europeans. Look at the Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians who have British grandparents. They have less right now to be in Britain than Europeans. Look at the Gurkhas (I know Nepal isn't in the commonwealth, but the same rule applies).
And we also _took_ a lot from those countries. Those countries are as they are largely because we made them so. We owe them. Big time.

That's a blanket statement. I haven't noticed many West Indians obsessing over religion. I've not seen many Australians threatening violence or murdering people. We've never been threatened with invasion from Kenya or Papua New Guinea.
In fact, what I see is that the Commonwealth stood behind us when we've been at war with other European countries."
"Jeremy Rifkin's 'The end of work':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Work"
"_AT_ llovemisty.
Your grasp of history is exceeding weak! In the 1960s Whitehall, without consulting its Commonwealth partners, cancelled the British citizenship, of which we were perhaps foolishly proud, of Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and South Africans in order to qualify to join the then European Common Market. Those countries had been independent parliamentary democracies for decades but were very definitely members of the British 'family of nations' with a shared cultural history. That removal of our classification as British seemed at the time to be very poor recompense for pouring troops, materiel and food into the 'Mother Country' during two World Wars.
This is one Kiwi whose older relatives here would spit sparks if you told them that they had more in common with Germans or Frenchmen or Poles than with their relatives in NZ.
As to your points about us Commonwealth types obsessing over religion or murdering people, I admit some Kiwis and Aussies, Saffas and Canucks tend to drink a bit much after Rugby games and get a bit silly, but obsess about religion or murder people - not very often!"
"_AT_kiwiinlondon and kikichan
Yes we do indeed have a lot in common with (and a lot to be grateful for from) the likes of Canada, New Zealand and Australia, as well as other Commonwealth countries (although a fair few Indians/Pakistanis fought for the Japanese in WW2, and of course to be fair a great many fought against them). As someone interested the history of both WW1 and WW2 I can tell you that the contribution of Commonwealth forces is greatly respected here in the UK. I only recently saw a documentary about the Canadian victory at Vimy Ridge in WW1, and another on El Alamein which explicitly mentioned the New Zealand, South African, Australian and Indian forces (amongst others) involved.
I am not actually a blanket fan of the EU project. I believe we have given a bit too much sovereignty (and money) away. The opening of our borders to unrestricted movement without proper planning was also a mistake. I would be fine with forming a community with Canada, Australia and New Zealand (you could add the Caribbean countries, India and a few others), because we are essentially the same people with the same sensibilities. However, the Commonwealth is not just liberal ""western"" democracies. It also contains the likes of Pakistan, Nigeria, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Uganda for example.
I don't feel I have much in common with people who believe time in prison or death is appropriate punishment for blasphemy or apostasy, or preach the sort of open hatred against gays which is unfortunately common in an increasingly large part of Christian and Muslim communities in Africa for example. Or people who reject secularism (Pakistan). This is why I referred to having more in common with Europeans than much of the Commonwealth. Clearly NZ, Canada and New Zealand (along with others) are culturally similar to Europe in these matters. I apologise if I offended with my over generalisation.
The fact remains that in their ""wisdom"", and for largely economic reasons the British government signed up to a EU. Just as for example Australia is building closer ties with Pacific countries close by, the emphasis was placed on links with the immediate neighbours. I for one am sorry if it has damaged relationships with our most faithful allies, but it is a political fact. As for owing other countries, it is pretty fair to say that history shows us that Western Europe owes Britain, the Commonwealth and the US big style for freeing them, but my family for example recieved nothing in terms of reward from the French, Belgiums, Norwegians etc, so any ""debt"" is history."
I would have left an erudite and witty comment here, but I got hopelessly distracted by that illustration. Is Team GB attempting to breed some sort of invincible Greco-Roman wrestler/octopus hybrid, and this was one of the unfortunate early experiments? Or is it merely the result of a teleporter gone wrong?
"Just wait until 22 Brazilian footballers contest the World Cup final between Qatar and United Arab Emirates.
That's sporting romance."
That's Zolabudding romance.
"I was once offered the chance to ""wrestle with Britain's finest in Salford""
I am a changed man...."
"Getting an East European bride sounds a lot easier, although I believe some of them are Stone Cold Stunners.
Hopefully the authorities can get to grips with anyone attempting these manoeuvres solely for the purpose of gaining citizenship status and instead of ending up in wedlock they will end up in a legal headlock, or unfortunately, like Eddie the Eagle this avenue will quickly become a slippery slope downhill."
"Greco-Roman grappling is for kids. Les Kellett would have had the lot of them for breakfast.
gg"
"Did the Ukrainians come over here voluntarily, or did we have to.....wait for it.............
twist their arm!!!!"
"Marina
Minor point, but always good to get the facts right. You dont wrestle for Britain at the Commonwealth games. It was either England, Scotland, Wales or NI. They compete seperately.
On another point, this has been happening for some time in athletics, with Kenyans, Americans and other nationalities being crafted in to fill holes in the team."
"So if one of the England ladies marries Lionel Messi does that mean....???
Is there enough time to make all arrangements?"
"romance and hilarity!
she's a tomboy and they're not! it's absurd! Remember that bit where michael caine says that thing and then sandra bullock falls over? You couldn't make it up!
lol"
What's the big fuss? Sure your cricket team is full of Saffers and the rugby team (sshhh) has a sprinkling of Saffers and Kiwis and Shrek has found a home in the national soccer team.
"Marina,
You old romantic you!

Perfect use of a paragraph. Perfect."
all these Eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from?
eastern europe
That they truly are lying back and thinking of England?
"Is this what the wannabe WAGS are doing?
Trying to marry international footballers in an attempt to get them to naturalise & play for England.
And here was me thinking that they were all airheads!"
"Shouldn´t these love struck wrestling foreigners be given a suitable collective noun?
What about the Half-Nelsons?"
"Response to Trotsky1917, 15 December 2011 12:19pm
Only if there were 55 ½ of them"
I assume these Eastern European wrestlers weren't good enough to get in their own national teams. If so and the plan to put them in the GB team was an underhand attempt to win medals, it seems unlikely to succeed.
"Response to TheAustrian, 15 December 2011 2:53pm
...five out of the seven places on a well-funded elite squad go to Ukrainians. My italics."
I know I would like to represent GB in a wrestling bout with some of the eastern European females on the WTA tennis tour. Even losing would be fun.
"Vidor06

Have quite so many of these other examples involved marriages?"
"""free, sovereign nations sheltered within the EU and Nato to boot""
That's a contradiction in terms Ian."
"""Merkel who grew up in a world and a system much closer to Poland than to France and who understands the east European intuitions about Russia.""
Shares their paranoia and Russophobia you mean?"
"Ian do you seriously believe that the EU is going to put up with the barmy Poles and the nazi Balts' US-incited disruptiveness? Are you saying in all sobriety that these corrupt, human-rights-violating, pathologically russophobic, US-aligned basket cases are somehow more valuable to the EU than keeping the one country that has the EU's energy balls in a vice happy?
How are the crazy Poles or nazi Balts ""winning the argument?"" In your imagination maybe. Not content with their SS veterans' marches, their SS monuments, and their scandalous discrimination and oppression of their huge Russian-speaking populations, now the Balts are going after WWII monuments. How are these Nazi nostalgiacs ""winning arguments?""
How are the crazy poles with their McCarthyite witch hunts and loyalty oaths, their CIA torture prisons and their US missile bases ""winning arguments?"" By splitting the EU perhaps? By provoking yet another crisis in the EU after the one they caused over the constitution?
What about Ukraine? Haven't you noticed that its government is no longer composed of US puppets? Haven't you heard about how the Orange so-called ""revolution"" went balls-up when the Orange thieves fell out?
You just don't make any sense Ian."
"Good grief, Dimitrov. Please wipe the foam from around your mouth and switch to decaf. You're beginning to worry the children.
I doubt that the ""crazy Poles"" or the ""nazi Balts"" are winning their arguments using ad hominem attacks and broad brush overgeneralizations."
"""Chirac famously told the east Europeans to keep quiet in the row over Iraq""
Translation is a bit of a minefield, but to convey the right tone, I think it would be closer to ""shut up"" than ""keep quiet"""
Well, in their blind hatred of Russia seemingly shared by this author, East-European weird regimes like the Kaczynskis' forget that the East of Europe is not that unanimous, not even the "sheltered within...": Bulgaria, Slovakia, Latvia, Serbia and, to a great extent, Moldova, are not anti-Russian by any stretch of the imagination; and I think it will be close to impossible to persuade the Serbs that their real friends are in the West, after the illegal genocidal and criminal bombing many of you may have forgotten, but they sure remember. Those who play by the Yankee doodle in many cases do so against the will of their own people, as polls among Czechs re the missile shield show, and I believe this is so even in Poland.
All three examples, Irag war, Orange rev, and missile sites, are a good example of the value of the eastren euopean politics. The gov resembles more of a puppet regime than a democracy in the three cases. Anyway, I think the difference between eastern and western europe is that the first need a pshyciatrist and the second is the hostage of its moral scruples.
The Poles and Czechs are destablizing Europe for a few Yankee dollars. Let them form their own coalition with Yankland if that's what suits them but why should the rest of Europe put up with their phobias? It is about time European countries made a choice, Yankland or Euroland. I've got no problems ceeding East Europe to the Yanks if that's what suits both of them and Britain can dig a tunnel to New England. Meanwhile the rest of us Europeans can try our best to build a Europe for Europeans to live peaceably.
"So....you were prepared to screw up the EU to make political capital in the East. Nice move, couldn't have planned it better myself (speaking from a US perspective). Look what we've got out of it -- plenty of new allies who can annoy the Russians and a free-trade zone that's too busy fighting among itself to organize properly.
""Beware of neocons bearing gifts"""
"""The EU's new members have begun to assert themselves, ruffling feathers in west European capitals.""
... and making total tits of themselves in the process."
"Papa Dimitrov, I think you've got Mama Dimitrov worried about your blood pressure.
Since you mentioned the ""nazi Baltic"" supporters, perhaps you'd like to explain away Turkey's (yes they may have been neutral until they saw Germany was going to lose, so they conveniently joined the winning side in Feb. 1945) role in supplying nearly 100% of Germany's chromite needs to harden the steel for their armour - not to mention providing storage facilities to the Nazi's gold stolen from holocaust victims et al?"
Ian can hardly be expected to take a position against the east Europeans since he is of a generation of journalists closely grown up with the independence/freedom mmovements - indeed some of this lot might claim to have "helped" the east Europeans into EU membership by influencing western opinion about historic injustices, etc. If his god-children are behaving no less arrogantly than their former rulers oh well, you have to have some oversight, eh? But I talked to someone in the European council of ministers foreign secretariat last week who said that EU insiders are working pretty much against the East Europeans' aspirations to be confrontational. To which of course the E Europeans will say "appeasement", "big organistion appeases Russia", "we live in a new Soviet Union that tries to shut us up" etc." I don't think there is going to be a new cold war, EU v Russia, as some forces might like. I do think there is going to be a serious split within the EU, esp if the Balkans come online. Between E and W European members. The French no vote to the constitution is, I think, partly an unarticulated hostility to the thought that power would be flowing east. Cf Eurovision.
"""But I talked to someone in the European council of ministers foreign secretariat last week who said that EU insiders are working pretty much against the East Europeans' aspirations to be confrontational.""
Which shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody. Question remains why journalists like Traynor expect us to eat the horsheshit they're feeding us. You'd expect that they'd have learned to take their heads out of the sand after the Iraq fiasco where similar virtual realities were peddled."
"Mrs Dimitrova is pulling that Mrs DimitROV shite on me because she wants me to pay for her sex-change operation. I keep telling her if you're not happy with your gender you should have stayed with the olympic hammer-throwing team, they would have had you looking like Mr. Dimitrov in no time.
Turkey during WWII had no means to resist the Nazis, having barely recovered from the murderous invasion and occupation of European imperialist powers and their Greek and Armenian stooges. Consequently our government made certain concession to the Nazis with the approval of the Brits and Yanks, who neither wanted to arm Turkey nor to see it fall to the Nazis, thus opening up the road to Iraq and Iran's oil.
Since Wall Street did not finance Turkey's reconstruction but instead chose to finance Hitler and his war machine, and to provide him with the strategic technologies he needed to prosecute the war, your question is hypocritical and disingenuous. Turkey wasn't running Nazi logistics, IBM was. Turkey wasn't supplying the luftwaffe with aviation fuel additive so it could bomb London, the London office of Standars Oil was. Turkey didn't sell IG Farben synthetic fuel and rubber technology without which the nazi army couldn't have even driven to Prague never mind Moscow. The Yanks did that.
What Turkey DID do was to save Jews. Several Turkish diplomats in Europe risked their lives to save Jews from the Nazis, a fact gratefully recognized by Israel. The Yanks and Brits went out of their way to PREVENT Jews from escaping the Nazi death trap, whose great efficiency was owed to IBM."
Mmmmm. I know some people might say E Europe is run by CIA-backed puppet regimes, that the so called "danger of Russia" is the new WMD peddled by Washington bullshit merchants and their E European surrogates. I agree with the latter 2 statements. But I am also fascinated by national psychology. Poland's mass worship of America and the Bush regime is well documented in public opinion surveys. (Apart from Poland, only The Philippines gives Bush net positive ratings) I think Poles should think about this: has hundreds of years of domination really taught them to love freedom, as they always maintain - or in fact to love power? The whole template for what they like and understand is based on being dominated by a great power. Which is why they cannot countenance a group of free and equal nations that the EU is. They cannot operate in that environment. They can only operate in relation to a large superpower whose strength they can respect and which dominates them - roll on America. It's like psychologically damaged woman who cannot change the kind of template of the man she has relations with as she goes through life.
"Polish policies are indeed a mystery. The constant thread is a vainglorious attempt to ""take on"" all neighbours at once with the support of distant, unreliable and ultimately disinterested allies.
It takes something for a nation to end up simply disappearing. The Poles have it."
"The Eastern Europeans are right to look to the US for their security, because the EU is a talking shop whose word counts for fuck-all without NATO (i.e. US) power to back it up. Now that the EU has decided it doesn't like the yanks any more, the whole 'soft power' thing is revealed for the empty nonsense that it is.
Russia is simply taking advantage of this and flexing its muscles. Stripped of its more civilised former colonies we see the true face of Russia. A Kruschev-like pig-eyed beetroot-faced drunken blustering bully."
"Yes the Poles don't really have any allies in Brussels or in Europe. Maybe the Lithuanians. Even the Brits in the form of the Tory party - traditional allies of anti communists east of the Elbe - can't stomach an alliance with the Poles in the European parliament. The Czechs, yes. But not the Poles.
Taking on all comers when you are relatively weak rather than building allies is in fact one expression of the urge to be dominated. They either attack or they fawn. There is no middle way for Poles; and yet hostility and worship are, as said, two sides of the same coin: psychological inability to be free. Domination or submission is the only game they understand. They want to be, want to be America's vassal in Europe. (America doesn't really care.) But what in fact could happen is psychological repartition - the EU and Russia, both loathing Poland, decides to cut a deal over their heads. Poor Poles. They have had evil imposed on them; but self destructively they also perpetuate it."
"Ian, your very first sentence is:
""The reunification of Europe three years ago was a splendid if overdue achievement.""
This depends very much on your starting point. I couldn't disagree more with you. It was an absolute disaster, is continuing to be disastrous and will in all liklihood result in the implosion of the whole EU superstate dream within the next 10 years. Hopefully the UK will have long since parachuted to safety before this happens. Once the populations of individual member states are exposed to the full implications of having to accept decisions imposed by 'majority implied consent' without the option of a veto, then I predict much of the supposed enthusiasm for the EU will swiftly evaporate.
I've no objection in principle for Euro-ideallists to peddle their vision of the future, in competition with other equally valid visions, but what i do object to is the totally undemocratic, rushed way the whole thing is being forced on us 'for our own good!'. An ambitious project like this needs 4 or 5 generations if it is to have any chance of success, not a couple of squalid decades spent largely brainwashing the masses and brow-beating those resistant to 'change'. If this is 'The Dream' for Europe then give me the nightmare anyday."
"Papa Dimitrov - ""... your question is hypocritical and disingenuous.""
Not at all. I merely wanted to point out - in reference to your earlier rant on ""nazi Balts"" - that Turkey was not totally innocent of helping the Nazi war effort and profitted from their commercial relationship. Furthermore, I am aware of U.S. and other European collaboration with the Nazis as I am of the 100,000 Jewish refugees that the Turks took into their country.
And you know I'm a fan of yours - U. of Chicago allumni should stick together. However, Mama Dimitrov is worried about some of your hyperactive turns and would be a lot happier if you stayed out of those Turkish coffee houses."
"Point 1. Truth of the matter is that Europe doesn't stop at the Elbe anymore.Better get used to that.
Point 2. If the new members' bloody mindedness makes the awful political hacks of old Europe sit up and start thinking, well, good. Long overdue.
We have to decide if we want European ""soft"" power to be able to punch its weight. If we don't, that's fine, but nothing on the EU political or social or international agenda will come to fruition. Ever."
So, you want a Polish head on top of German and French and British shoulders? I am not sure Europeans who have been EU citizens since 1957 and who stand for 95% of EU GDp would stand for that.
"Sorry. I'd forgotten what a great job the German, French, and British heads have been doing recently.
And I hadn't thought that hogging the lion's share of the (admittedly stingy) community budget while controlling �95%? of GDP, and using it to prop up the farm sector was what the EU should be about. Everyone west of Vienna, except possibly Portugal, has been sucking the Brussels tit for quite long enough. If the EU was prepared to channel much needed funds to where they'd actually do some good, rather than lining the pockets of someone who's earning a living by not cultivating the land, then those pesky little new boys might think that singing from the same hymn sheet was a better idea."
"I don't think this is anything to do with neo-cons or America or the CIA or other conspiracies.
Simply, Poles are the basket case of the EU, with a mess of an economy, 15% unemployment and a young population voting with their feet and simply walking out. The regime is reacting to this by blaming everyone, Russia, pacifist modern Germany, gays, jews, anyone basically to distract attention from their problems.
But here's the thing - the EU can live with this. The previous basket case of Europe used to be Greece. Unlike Ireland and Spain, they didn't really grasp their opportunity, and instead spent time squabbling and feuding with Turkey. But the good news is that they've suddenly got it together. The earthquakes in Turkey a few years ago, drew a really sympathetic response from Greece, and the two countries made peace. The Olympics put pressure on them to deliver, which they did in style, producing the best Olympics in modern history. They even won the European Cup playing disciplined German-style football. They are now proper Europeans in both competance and attitude - and as a result command respect from other Europeans.
It took them 25 years, but they got there in the end. I predict that in 25 years time, the Poles will have got tired of wasting time on old feuds (in the same way that Greece got tired of old feuds with Turkey), they'll get tired of incompetant governments, throw them out and get someone who actually knows how to run an economy. They'll learn that respect has to be earned not demanded. They may host the World Cup or European Cup and suddenly rediscover pride and confidence and become proper Europeans in the process (at the moment they are just a Slavic ex-Soviet bloc state with little understanding of the Enlightenment).
The EU can withstand this and wait for the Poles and others to grow up. We've done it before with other states (eg Greece)."
Christ, some people on this site are complete tits. Why do the Poles, Czechs and the Balts hate the Russians? Its history dummies. The Poles have seen their country raped and exploited by the Russians for some 300+ years. The Balts were suppressed and oppressed by the Russians from the early 19th century on. They were colonised, had thousands of their citizens murdered, their cultures denigrated and submerged under under an influx of Russians and Russian culture. The Czechs, for those who forget, had Russian tanks invade their country in 1968. I was there at the time and I can still remember the people in tears in the streets of Prague. The Germans have had equally unsavoury relationships with Eastern Europe but they have faced up to their past and have apologised to the peoples whose countries they invaded and have paid reparations. The vast majority of Russians appear not to have even acknowledged that their country has ever done anything wrong.
"'Ere. wait a mo.
Surveys show that a large majority of Czechs don't want the radar stations...
Almost everyone on this thread is confusing the posturing of East/Central European governments with the attitudes of their populations.
The Czech intellectuals, media and government like to beat the anti-Russian drum, but the population is relatively indifferent and really big business is Russia orientated.
Sorry, North, you may have been here in 68, but if you were here now you'd realise that the populace are still more irritated by Sudeten German issues (despite all ""apologies"" on one side or the other) than they are by unapologetic Rusaks."
Sarka. The Czechs may not want Radar stations but they sure as hell don't want much to do with Russia either. Russians are only marginally more popular than the Roma and Sinti with most Czechs and that tells you a lot. The Czechs , I've met recently, are very pro-American and very wary of what Rumsfeld, so charmingly, called "old Europe".
"North, I would never call the Czechs ""Pro-Russian"" but I persist in my view that the population is not specially concerned about the Russian threat and that ostentatious anti-Russian rhetoric is the preserve of part of the media and a small part of the political scene (most obvious in the 68ers and ex-dissidents - but only a few of these have much influence these days. Havel's extreme pro-Americanism is considered a joke by most people here. Perhaps it is these sorts of people that you meet... I have lived here for sixteen years among Czechs, work with them, meet them every day, am married to one...And I know some of the many many Russians living and doing business here!
With Poles and Balts things are definitely different. With Poles in particular Russians are the ancestral enemy...(like Germans with Czechs)...Go south and you get a different attitude again. The ""New Europe"" cliches are only partially and patchily valid. And one of the funniest things about their promoters is the illusion that the ""New Europe"" has much capacity to form a solid block even on global foreign policy issues...
You can get Czechs going about Germans much much more easily."
Sarka, I don't entirely disagree with you. I don't think the Czechs have the same hatred of Russians that Poles and Balts do but I've never detected any affection for them either, rather a wary suspicion. It may be that feelings vary in different parts of the Czech Republic. I know Prague and Cesky Krumlov and area reasonably well but only as a fairly frequent visitor. I must admit that I don't speak any Czech either though I have fairly good German and I do get by on that but always make sure the Czechs I speak to in German know I'm not German. I do have Slovak relatives and I am aware that Slovaks, at least,often have warmer feelings towards Russia than many other E.Europeans. In that they tend to be joined by Bulgarians and Serbs.
"""I don't think the Czechs have the same hatred of Russians that Poles and Balts do but I've never detected any affection for them either, rather a wary suspicion.""
NOrth You are right that there is no affection for Russians among Czechs. For a Czech is a Russian equal to an barbarian. The Polish case is more complex, they hate Russian government, but they like Russian people."
"Dear Ian Traynor,
I maybe wrong but you do believe that Russia is ""bad"" whereas the former USSR states are ""good"". I think it�s too simple for accurate analysis. You might have clean forgotten James Baker�s solemn promise in early 1990s that �NATO WILL NOT MOVE ONE INCH TO THE EAST (i.e. to Russia)�. Mr Traynor, please read an interview with Professor S.F. Cohen (New York University) in http://www.washprofile.org/en/node/5814). Please give your comment on the following quotation:
1. PROFESSOR COHEN: �The second thing we (The West) did which was equally bad, AND THIS IS OFTEN FORGOTTEN, that in 1990-1991, when Bush asked Gorbachev to permit both a united Germany and a united Germany in NATO, and Gorbachev agreed and that was a historic agreement, Gorbachev was promised, Russia was promised by Bush, and I�ll quote his secretary of state at the time, James Baker, that �NATO will not move one inch to the east.� That was a solemn promise. Now in Russia, it is said that Gorbachev should have gotten it in writing as a treaty. But when it came to the United States, Gorbachev was a little naive. He was smitten with his own ideas of the new thinking, a common European home of human values. He thought that we ascribe to those values, that the United States saw eye to eye to him about that and about how great powers should treat each other. But Clinton during the 1990s violated that solemn promise and began to expand NATO eastward toward Russia, and that continues today. That expansion of NATO and the violation of that promise that has driven the conflicts with Russia over both Ukraine and Georgia, and so long as NATO continues to take those former Soviet republics in, that conflict will continue to exist...After all [NATO is] a military alliance right on Russia�s borders.�
Dear Ian Traynor, please give your comment.
Yours faithfully,"
"To Mr North
1) Mr North said: ""Why do the Poles, Czechs and the Balts hate the Russians? Its history dummies. The Poles have seen their country raped and exploited by the Russians for some 300+ years.""
-And what did the Poles & the Balts do some 400+ years before that? They have occupied Russia in 1612 and 'raped' Russia. Please give comment, Mr North.
2) Mr North said: ""The Balts were suppressed and oppressed by the Russians from the early 19th century on."" ---It is interesting, indeed. Actually, the big slice (some 30-40%) of the Russian Empire�s noblemen were enthic Balts and Germans (from Kurland & Estland). I often came across Baltic and German surnames (Russian commisioned officers who took part during the Napoleon war) on the walls of the Christ the Saviour Church in Moscow. I think that Mr North is not well-informed.
3) ""The vast majority of Russians appear not to have even acknowledged that their country has ever done anything wrong.""
Mr Noth, the Russians were the first who supported the Balts in their sovereignty in early 1990s. BUT! � look here please � the most majority of Russians in the Baltic states have not yet got citisenship for 15-16 years!
I think it�s not bad for you, Mr North, to read ther other facts:
4) Actually, academics (Levi Sher, plz see http://www.regnum.ru/#full801643) argue that the Baltic States were not occupied. Estonia welcomed rather than resisted Soviet troops in 1939. Stricktly speaking, it was a sort of the 1938 annexation of Austria or the ANSCHLUSS, not occupation (as was in Poland). 5) England and France didn't proclaim war against the USSR after the ANSCHLUSS of ESTONIA 1939. 6) Estonia reaped the fruits of THE 1920 TARTU AGREEMENT. I hope you have read the text of this agreement. Estonia conspired criminally with the Bolshevik government in 1920 and established relations in violating the international law. They say he who sows the wind, shall reap the whirlwind. 7) Despite the mentioned events, Russia was the first state to established diplomatic relations with the Baltic States as well as Estonia in 1991. I think that it's not bad. 8) I have clean forgotten about 11 000 Latvian Riflemen or ""Red Latvian Riflemen"" who supported the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917-1920 with the help of murdering thousands of Russians. Latvian Riflemen the personal guard of Lenin (or Vladimir Ulianov-Blank). Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Riflemen You may have forgotten but the Russians still remember the Latvians. The irony is that the big slice of the USSR's high command were ethnic latvians. 9) Russia gave former Germany's Prussian Lithuania and Poland?s lands, now Klaipeda & Vilnius counties, to Lithuania after 1945 (plz see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Municipalities_in_Lithuania.png and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania) And what property has the West gave to the Baltic states? 10) The Baltic states saw industial surge during the Soviet era, that is the fact. The USSR has built industrial framework there especially electronics, ports, fleet (and navy) 11) Russia left all its property, land and chattels, in the Baltic states in 1991. 12) It was Russia, not the USSR or the West, that helped the Baltic states to gain their independece and sovereignty. If it were not for Russia's help, the Boltics would have been ... I could hardly fancy what would have been... 13) The Russians, not the English or Americans, paid the price of 20-30 million killed during the Second World War so that we can speak and write whatever we want. ...and if only the Russians in 1945 knew what would happen in some 50 years!
Yours faithully"
"Is Dimitrov trying to be controversial? If yes, he swiftly moved from exchange of opposite views into the realm of offensive, rabbid monolog of a propaganda brainwashed fanatic. The question is who brainwashed him and why?
Poles and the Balts are not Russophobes. The point really is that proximity gives you better understanding of the of your neighbour country. Just as Iranians know Iraqis better than Americans, Poles and Balts understand the Russian psyche better. The psyche of years of communist/imperialist propaganda, dreams of ""mat' Russia"" patritism/nationalism. The psyche which ignores and sacrifices individualism and a person over the common good (however percived) and the psyche where emotions like pride and hate drive the national policy. Poles, Balts and other nations occupied by the imperialist big brother until the late 1980s know that side of Russia very well.
In any event, Western European countries need guidance on how to work with its new neighbours. And who is better equipped than those who know Russia first hand? And Russia and Russian thinking in the governmental circles has not changed that much since 1980s..."